Off The Hook - 1995-09-06

[00:21.320 --> 00:24.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it's just about 10 o'clock.
[00:25.060 --> 00:29.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it's a Wednesday, which means it's time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[00:41.900 --> 00:43.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:44.380 --> 00:46.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now I can't make a call.
[00:51.450 --> 00:54.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: I would, but I'd best expect the worst.
[00:55.510 --> 00:57.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: I hope that's understood.
[01:55.230 --> 01:57.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: And a very good evening to one and all.
[01:58.110 --> 02:01.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein with another edition of Off the Hook.
[02:01.930 --> 02:06.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: And this promises to be a very exciting one because there's a lot going on.
[02:07.550 --> 02:09.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: This is our last program for the next two weeks.
[02:09.990 --> 02:13.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're not on next week because of fundraising by the computer people.
[02:14.450 --> 02:17.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're not the computer people, too, but we're a different kind of computer people.
[02:17.390 --> 02:18.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: Isn't that right, Phiber?
[02:18.250 --> 02:19.930]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, I guess we're slightly different.
[02:20.050 --> 02:21.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're definitely computer people.
[02:22.770 --> 02:26.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: So we have a two-hour special, I believe, the week after that.
[02:26.790 --> 02:29.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: And we'll be raising all kinds of fundage then.
[02:30.370 --> 02:32.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: And that will be... I like that word, huh?
[02:33.210 --> 02:34.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: Fundage, yeah, I like that.
[02:34.470 --> 02:35.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's a good word.
[02:36.570 --> 02:41.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, we have some late-breaking news stories that are coming our way.
[02:41.350 --> 02:42.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: First of all, the Bernie S.
[02:42.290 --> 02:42.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: situation.
[02:42.630 --> 02:44.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: He had his suppression hearing today.
[02:45.310 --> 02:46.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Aren't you going to ask me what happened?
[02:46.590 --> 02:47.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, what happened?
[02:47.170 --> 02:47.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know.
[02:48.130 --> 02:49.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: I have no idea what happened.
[02:49.590 --> 02:51.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: In fact, we're waiting for a phone call from Bernie S.
[02:52.010 --> 02:55.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hopefully, we'll come in at some point during this hour where he'll tell us.
[02:55.630 --> 02:58.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: He'll either be calling us from prison or maybe he won't be in prison anymore.
[02:58.350 --> 03:00.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: So we don't really know what the situation is with that.
[03:02.110 --> 03:17.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: We have more of a late-breaking news story coming from someplace further away, namely the hacker-friendly, up until now, country of Holland, which had a raid yesterday by the Church of Scientology.
[03:17.710 --> 03:24.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: You remember, it was a while ago, a few months ago, where the Church of Scientology raided the anonymous re-mailer in Finland.
[03:24.450 --> 03:24.630]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[03:25.290 --> 03:27.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: And we were all kind of shocked when that happened.
[03:27.550 --> 03:31.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, how could such a thing happen to someplace in Finland?
[03:31.390 --> 03:32.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: What's the Church of Scientology?
[03:33.010 --> 03:34.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, what kind of power did these guys have?
[03:35.290 --> 03:41.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I'm going to read you a little bit of a press release, and then we're going to speak to somebody who was actually there and a part of this whole thing.
[03:43.350 --> 03:45.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: And no, they're not from the Church of Scientology.
[03:45.110 --> 03:45.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: Don't worry about that.
[03:51.220 --> 03:51.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: Actually, you know what?
[03:51.860 --> 03:54.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're not going to read that because I don't have that piece of paper on me right now.
[03:54.480 --> 03:56.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: It must still be someplace else.
[03:56.200 --> 04:00.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: So let me introduce Rob from Amsterdam right now, who's going to tell us in his own words what happened.
[04:00.560 --> 04:01.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: Rob, are you there?
[04:01.540 --> 04:02.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm here.
[04:02.100 --> 04:02.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello there.
[04:02.640 --> 04:02.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: How are you doing?
[04:02.940 --> 04:05.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: It must be 4 o'clock in the morning over there in Amsterdam.
[04:05.820 --> 04:08.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I just came home from a party, so it wasn't that bad.
[04:08.820 --> 04:09.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, that's what Amsterdam's all about.
[04:10.120 --> 04:12.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: So tell us, now this happened yesterday.
[04:12.780 --> 04:17.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: The Church of Scientology really raided the offices of Access for All, the Internet provider.
[04:18.260 --> 04:19.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, they did.
[04:19.320 --> 04:24.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it wasn't really a raid, and it wasn't really the Church of Scientology performing it.
[04:26.260 --> 04:30.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: But it was the Church of Scientology behind it all, and there were some Scientology members present.
[04:30.900 --> 04:38.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I found the piece of paper I was looking for, actually, that supposedly this person was acting on behalf of the Religious Technology Center, is that right?
[04:38.460 --> 04:41.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Which is the front for the Scientology organization.
[04:42.440 --> 04:49.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: The Scientology Church has about 200 companies and groups and churches and everything registered all over the world.
[04:49.840 --> 04:58.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, but Religious Technology Center is one of their core organizations that form the Scientology organization.
[04:58.920 --> 05:03.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: What happened is, one of our... no, let's go further back in time.
[05:05.220 --> 05:09.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: At one point in time, Access for All was running what is called an anonymous remailer.
[05:10.040 --> 05:14.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: You may have discussed an anonymous remailer, how it works in your program.
[05:14.560 --> 05:22.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: What happens is, people send mail to an anonymous remailer, and then it gets remailed, but the name is removed from it.
[05:22.200 --> 05:25.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: So people can use an anonymous remailer to stay anonymous on the Internet.
[05:27.740 --> 05:43.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of people, and really a lot of people, were using the Access for All remailer at one point to criticize the Church of Scientology, its methods, and really showing what the Church of Scientology really is, which is an ugly money scam cult.
[05:43.740 --> 05:44.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: In your opinion?
[05:45.200 --> 05:47.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, of course, in my opinion.
[05:47.540 --> 06:03.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: But what happened then, this is really funny, there was a lot of letters going back and forth between us, between our lawyer, I should say, and their lawyer, concerning this anonymous remailer question, what to do about it.
[06:04.720 --> 06:16.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: And two months ago, we decided, for other reasons, as well as this reason, to no longer run the anonymous remailer, to no longer have an anonymous remailer on Access for All, in the Access for All domain.
[06:17.840 --> 06:24.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Apparently, this has escaped the attention of the Church of Scientology, or they didn't want to see this.
[06:24.100 --> 06:35.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because, yesterday, people came in with a signed paper saying our anonymous remailer was being used in copyright violations against the Church of Scientology.
[06:36.510 --> 06:39.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, you stopped using the anonymous remailer.
[06:39.420 --> 06:39.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: Why again?
[06:40.980 --> 06:43.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: For a number of reasons, this being one of them.
[06:43.980 --> 06:55.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: We didn't feel like being such a primary target when there was other places in Holland and all over the world where new anonymous remailers could be much easier set up.
[06:56.920 --> 07:04.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because running an anonymous remailer puts your organization at a substantial risk of being raided for real.
[07:04.600 --> 07:06.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Remember, nothing was taken from here.
[07:06.820 --> 07:09.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let me get on with the story.
[07:11.040 --> 07:17.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: These people came in here for a legal procedure, which in Holland is called beslaglegging.
[07:17.740 --> 07:19.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have no idea if there's an English word for it.
[07:19.900 --> 07:20.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: What it means is following.
[07:22.280 --> 07:29.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you're going to sue somebody in a civil case in Holland, you have the right to...
[07:29.240 --> 07:48.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you can convince a judge that your lawsuit is for real and that you really have something to claim, then you can go by and write down what this person owns and then sue them for what they own so they can't move it out of their place once they get sued.
[07:48.540 --> 07:49.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: They can't...
[07:49.220 --> 07:58.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: In other words, as long as this thing is going on, we can't sell any of our equipment of which the serial numbers were written down.
[07:59.520 --> 08:04.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: So basically, we are tied to our belongings until this procedure is over.
[08:06.180 --> 08:06.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's interesting.
[08:06.900 --> 08:08.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't think there's anything similar in this...
[08:08.720 --> 08:09.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've never heard of such a thing.
[08:09.860 --> 08:10.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Have you, Mark?
[08:10.740 --> 08:11.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I can't say I have.
[08:11.940 --> 08:14.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: Actually writing down what somebody owns?
[08:14.460 --> 08:17.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, but that's the only thing they were allowed to do.
[08:17.380 --> 08:19.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: They were not allowed to touch any keyboards.
[08:19.500 --> 08:24.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: They were not allowed to look in any computers, go through our files or anything.
[08:24.440 --> 08:30.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: What happened was a group of people coming in and writing down the serial numbers of our machines.
[08:31.140 --> 08:32.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's very interesting.
[08:32.360 --> 08:37.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, you have to prove, though, that you intend to go through with the lawsuit in order to get the right to do that.
[08:37.200 --> 08:43.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, you can't just walk over to, say, the PTT and say you intend to sue them one day and write down all their serial numbers.
[08:43.660 --> 08:44.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: You can't do that, right?
[08:45.800 --> 08:47.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it'd be harder to convince a judge.
[08:48.200 --> 08:56.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're still wondering how they convinced the judge because once they came in here, they came with a completely different story.
[08:56.300 --> 08:58.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: The anonymous remailer was never mentioned.
[08:58.120 --> 09:00.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: They had a new letter from their lawyer to us.
[09:01.380 --> 09:05.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this time it was concerning somebody's homepage on Access for All.
[09:05.720 --> 09:08.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have a user by the name of Fons S.
[09:10.200 --> 09:19.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: who is disseminating information critical of the Church of Scientology and also a supposedly copyrighted document.
[09:20.100 --> 09:24.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: And he was disseminating that from his homepage on Access for All on the World Wide Web.
[09:26.520 --> 09:37.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we told them that that was this user's page and that we didn't feel entitled to do anything about that, that this was between them and that user.
[09:39.100 --> 09:40.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: They didn't feel like that.
[09:40.540 --> 09:41.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: They didn't feel that.
[09:41.500 --> 09:48.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: They felt it was our responsibility as publishers of this homepage to take the information off.
[09:48.780 --> 09:56.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they were even willing to drop the procedure right there if we just remove this user, which we refused to do.
[09:58.760 --> 10:00.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: So now where do things stand at this moment?
[10:01.420 --> 10:02.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that's the funny part.
[10:03.080 --> 10:05.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: They came in at 2 in the afternoon.
[10:05.720 --> 10:08.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: They left a few minutes before 3.
[10:09.120 --> 10:13.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they were really sorry they were ever in there by 5 or 6 in the evening.
[10:14.000 --> 10:14.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: Why is that?
[10:16.620 --> 10:20.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because I don't think they realized how much press calls they would be getting.
[10:20.860 --> 10:25.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think they realized what this would stir up.
[10:26.700 --> 10:34.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: By 6 in the evening, we received a call from them saying that they were not going on with the procedure and that we could...
[10:36.060 --> 10:42.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: In other words, the freeze on our assets was over, that they were giving that up.
[10:42.660 --> 10:45.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that has been confirmed by a letter from their lawyer today.
[10:47.260 --> 10:56.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: So even though they came in at 2 and left at 3, they wanted to quickly forget about the whole thing by 6 in the afternoon.
[10:56.340 --> 10:57.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: And to what do you attribute that?
[10:58.780 --> 11:11.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: I attribute that to massive support from a lot of people all over the world, not even just in Holland, which was mostly because we posted messages on the Internet.
[11:13.500 --> 11:17.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: So the Internet comes to the rescue again, as far as getting the word out.
[11:17.560 --> 11:19.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's always other possibilities.
[11:19.600 --> 11:21.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's a few strange things about this whole case.
[11:21.880 --> 11:25.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: who were in here for less than an hour writing down serial members.
[11:25.880 --> 11:34.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yet there was two people there who even admitted that they were Scientology members, a Mr. Waitman and a Mrs. Jensen.
[11:36.260 --> 11:43.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: They admitted they were from Scientology and they were flown in for this to Amsterdam from Los Angeles.
[11:45.380 --> 11:50.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can only guess they were flown in from Los Angeles, but that's what we would guess.
[11:51.360 --> 11:56.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: They were flown in to Holland, especially for this case, and then flown back afterwards.
[11:57.000 --> 12:02.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: In other words, these people came to Amsterdam for a day to witness the writing down of serial numbers.
[12:03.600 --> 12:04.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: What a trip.
[12:05.300 --> 12:05.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's something.
[12:06.060 --> 12:12.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: Talk about jet lag, you know, flying all the way over there, writing down some serial numbers and flying back.
[12:12.680 --> 12:16.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: Rob, we're going to be putting in a halt just for a second because I think we might be getting a call from Bernie S.
[12:17.020 --> 12:17.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Sure.
[12:17.340 --> 12:19.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: So let's see if he's in fact on the line.
[12:20.120 --> 12:20.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: Is Bernie S.
[12:20.980 --> 12:21.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: on the line?
[12:21.480 --> 12:22.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is Loctel.
[12:22.460 --> 12:25.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: You have a collect call from Bernie S.
[12:26.040 --> 12:29.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, that means he's still in prison, so let's hit 9 to accept the call.
[12:31.280 --> 12:32.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Please go ahead.
[12:32.760 --> 12:33.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: You are now connected.
[12:34.600 --> 12:35.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Bernie S.
[12:35.780 --> 12:37.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, it's Bernie S.
[12:37.100 --> 12:38.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: And yes, I'm still in federal prison.
[12:38.980 --> 12:39.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, we guessed that.
[12:40.040 --> 12:43.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let's just introduce you to Rob, who's also on the line from Amsterdam.
[12:43.760 --> 12:44.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, Rob.
[12:44.820 --> 12:45.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi there.
[12:45.720 --> 12:46.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Long time no talk?
[12:47.440 --> 12:47.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or see?
[12:48.660 --> 13:01.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: Rob is updating us on the recent, I don't know if we want to call it a raid or a visit by the Church of Scientology to the offices of Access for All in Holland in search of a I guess a copyrighted document.
[13:01.520 --> 13:03.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: Is that really a fair way to put this?
[13:04.620 --> 13:06.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: They weren't in search of it.
[13:06.080 --> 13:07.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: They had already found it.
[13:07.300 --> 13:12.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: They just wanted really badly for this document not to be spread anymore.
[13:13.140 --> 13:13.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh-huh.
[13:13.540 --> 13:16.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, on the Internet that's rather difficult to stop.
[13:16.420 --> 13:16.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[13:17.040 --> 13:20.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, theoretically, what would they have to do to prevent this document?
[13:20.180 --> 13:21.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: They'd have to...
[13:21.440 --> 13:23.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: Phiber, is there any way for them to stop this?
[13:23.160 --> 13:25.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: They'd have to raid everybody everywhere.
[13:25.760 --> 13:27.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: But there'd be copies all over the place.
[13:27.640 --> 13:30.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: They'd have to shut down the whole Internet and then go through everyone's files.
[13:30.580 --> 13:31.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, it's just...
[13:31.300 --> 13:32.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: These guys have got to get a grip.
[13:32.980 --> 13:33.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, this...
[13:33.780 --> 13:40.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: The case is really interesting because the document in question is a so-called Fishman affidavit.
[13:40.320 --> 13:40.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[13:40.960 --> 13:54.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Fishman is a guy that was once a Scientology member who committed a lot of crimes on behalf of Scientology and was in his affidavit to his court case was telling the world about this.
[13:54.800 --> 13:55.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[13:55.160 --> 14:05.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: And his affidavit included a number of copyrighted texts from Scientology which were included in the documentation to the case.
[14:05.700 --> 14:16.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: And so everybody could basically order this heavily guarded Scientology text which they're only selling for $100,000 if you get up to a certain level in their organization.
[14:17.380 --> 14:20.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: And everybody could order these texts for $5 at some U.S.
[14:20.800 --> 14:21.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: district court.
[14:22.040 --> 14:25.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: So they were really upset and now they had a judge reseal the documents.
[14:26.100 --> 14:26.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[14:26.900 --> 14:33.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: So basically a once publicly available document is now secret and copyrighted again.
[14:34.020 --> 14:47.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, if I were to say that since this particular incident yesterday in Amsterdam I've received dozens of copies of that copyrighted document in my mailbox would I be in trouble for admitting that in their eyes?
[14:49.040 --> 14:54.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, if you are in trouble a lot of people are because that document is not going away.
[14:54.880 --> 15:03.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, it's spreading so fast over the Internet that it's producing a significant load on FTP traffic and copyrighted traffic worldwide.
[15:03.860 --> 15:04.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh boy.
[15:04.880 --> 15:06.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's a whole another crisis here then.
[15:07.120 --> 15:20.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: My small understanding of copyright law Emmanuel is that if you facilitate the distribution of a copyrighted text without the authorization of the copyright holder then you are liable.
[15:20.740 --> 15:20.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[15:21.400 --> 15:27.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: So simply receiving it in your mailbox would not be a copyright violation as I understand it.
[15:28.520 --> 15:28.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[15:29.060 --> 15:32.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: So if someone were to send that to Emmanuel at 2600.com I would not be in trouble.
[15:33.060 --> 15:34.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wouldn't think so.
[15:34.440 --> 15:34.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[15:34.620 --> 15:35.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's all I wanted to know.
[15:37.580 --> 15:38.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[15:38.520 --> 15:39.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm glad we cleared that up.
[15:39.880 --> 15:49.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, if someone put that on your website and then other people were to copy it off of there...
[15:49.940 --> 15:50.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right.
[15:50.080 --> 15:51.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: We'd be disseminating it then.
[15:52.280 --> 15:52.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[15:52.780 --> 15:54.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Listen, Bernie S., we don't want to take up too much of your time.
[15:54.840 --> 15:55.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: Tell us.
[15:55.300 --> 15:55.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: What happened today?
[15:55.720 --> 15:57.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: You had your suppression hearing this morning.
[15:57.220 --> 15:57.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Suppression hearing.
[15:57.820 --> 16:03.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't public about the suppression hearing prior because we didn't want to tip our hands too much to the government.
[16:04.260 --> 16:06.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: But today...
[16:06.080 --> 16:15.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tomorrow my trial is scheduled, but the day before we had this special hearing to determine or to try to prove that the government seized evidence from me illegally.
[16:17.020 --> 16:32.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Namely, a box of quartz crystals and other electronic components was seized from my possession that I was holding in a box in a parking lot by a police officer who didn't ask me to take it, didn't ask for my consent, and I protested that he took it.
[16:32.400 --> 16:36.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they just held on to it for a few days and then determined that illegal things could have been done with these parts.
[16:38.140 --> 16:40.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's what started this whole thing.
[16:40.320 --> 16:40.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: It started...
[16:40.740 --> 16:52.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: What led to an arrest warrant for me by the Secret Service which then led to a search of my home which then led to them finding cellular phones and cellular phone programming software which led to federal charges.
[16:52.440 --> 16:53.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the original charges were all dropped.
[16:54.280 --> 17:06.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: But in any case, today we try to convince a federal judge that this box of parts was seized without a warrant, without probable cause, and without my consent.
[17:06.720 --> 17:22.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: And unfortunately, the one thing I just didn't count on was a local law enforcement officer who was involved in this original incident claiming that I gave him consent to take this box from me and that I handed it to him.
[17:22.860 --> 17:25.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, he is not the person who even took it from me.
[17:25.020 --> 17:28.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: The person who took it from me wasn't even at this hearing.
[17:29.680 --> 17:44.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it just came down to a credibility issue of this police officer with years of experience versus an alleged computer hacker and unfortunately the judge ruled on the side of the government which I guess shouldn't be too surprising.
[17:44.840 --> 17:50.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're saying that this cop who wasn't even there came to the hearing today and said that you offered him the box of evidence.
[17:50.460 --> 17:51.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: He was there.
[17:51.200 --> 17:53.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: He just wasn't the person who took the box away from me.
[17:54.260 --> 18:01.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Another uniformed police officer took it away from me just seized it grabbed it from under my arm just pulled it away and when I protested he told me to shut up.
[18:02.040 --> 18:31.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: The officer who came today as a detective who was in charge of the whole thing going on at the time he was there and he ultimately at the end of that incident refused to give my stuff back give the box back to me but he was not the person who actually took it from me but he said he was today he said he was the person who took it from me after I gave him permission to take it and actually after I
[18:31.600 --> 18:49.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: handed it to him neither of which happened so it's unfortunate what can you say when you get into a world where people will say anything that's not true it turns into an Alice in Wonderland type situation where you can't count on anything and logic goes out the window.
[18:49.500 --> 18:50.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, how do you deal with that?
[18:50.960 --> 18:57.160]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, it takes away whatever faith you might have had left in the justice system when... Lost that over the past... How do you do things like that?
[18:57.460 --> 18:59.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've already lost that over the past six months.
[18:59.320 --> 19:01.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, yeah, I can imagine you certainly have.
[19:01.340 --> 19:04.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: You lose even more faith in the human condition.
[19:05.140 --> 19:10.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, now, if they lied today, then we can assume they'll be lying throughout this entire thing.
[19:11.000 --> 19:18.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's true, but this local law enforcement officer really won't have as much to say.
[19:18.600 --> 19:28.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: at the trial because his involvement stemmed from the state charges, which were ultimately dropped and replaced by federal charges.
[19:29.020 --> 19:54.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, we will have testimony tomorrow and Friday, ostensibly, by federal experts who will say that computer hardware and software could have been used for programming cellular phones and that Touch-Tone dialers in my possession could have been used to generate coin tones for the commission of payphones.
[19:54.800 --> 19:57.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: But nobody is saying that they were ever used for that purpose.
[19:58.040 --> 20:02.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no allegation or charges that I ever did either of these things.
[20:02.660 --> 20:08.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: The charges are that possessing these items constitutes intent to defraud.
[20:08.420 --> 20:14.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: And therefore, it is in violation of these two brand new federal statutes, which you have a copy of.
[20:14.580 --> 20:18.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's just these two statutes, the one of which is whoever with the intent to defraud.
[20:18.920 --> 20:19.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm paraphrasing here.
[20:19.900 --> 20:30.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Whoever with the intent to defraud, possesses a modified telecommunications instrument that enables unauthorized access to telecommunications services, is guilty of this statute.
[20:30.780 --> 20:32.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's a federal felony.
[20:51.040 --> 20:56.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: No one in the country has ever been charged with either of these two statutes before.
[20:56.580 --> 20:58.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am the test case for the government.
[20:58.240 --> 21:17.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's troubling because the definitions of those two statutes could cover a whole bunch of experimenting that people are engaging in all over the world and who aren't actually committing any crimes yet.
[21:17.780 --> 21:28.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, just having things that could be used for this can now be charged as a federal felony if the government can prove intent.
[21:29.040 --> 21:34.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, Bernie, they also were supposed to decide on the bail issue today, were they not?
[21:34.760 --> 21:36.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was mistaken about that, Emmanuel.
[21:37.000 --> 21:42.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was under the understanding that would be decided today, but maybe it was wishful thinking on my part.
[21:42.620 --> 21:44.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: I thought my attorney had told me that.
[21:44.860 --> 21:47.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Last night, I'm like, well, what about the bail?
[21:47.720 --> 21:51.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, you and I and he were on a conference call a couple days ago.
[21:51.080 --> 21:51.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Was it yesterday?
[21:51.940 --> 21:52.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, it was.
[21:52.460 --> 21:53.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: Actually, it was two days ago.
[21:53.240 --> 22:04.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, I think I asked him about that, and that's what I learned, as a matter of fact, during that conference call with the two of you, that it wasn't actually going to be, that bail issue wasn't going to be decided today after all.
[22:04.400 --> 22:08.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that was a rude surprise.
[22:08.040 --> 22:09.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, when will that be decided?
[22:09.500 --> 22:12.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's kind of a moot point now because my trial is tomorrow.
[22:12.040 --> 22:25.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: So the judge's schedule will not permit a bail hearing to be held since all of tomorrow's and Friday's schedule will be filled with the jury proceedings, not jury proceedings, but jury selection and all that stuff.
[22:25.900 --> 22:28.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: So after the trial is over, maybe you'll get a bail hearing is what you're telling me.
[22:29.680 --> 22:31.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'll either be acquitted...
[22:31.340 --> 22:32.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, let's hope so.
[22:32.720 --> 22:37.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: ...in which case, bail will be irrelevant, or I'll be convicted and bail will be irrelevant.
[22:37.600 --> 22:38.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: So in either case...
[22:38.860 --> 22:40.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's going to be no bail hearing.
[22:40.240 --> 22:50.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it will be... bail will be irrelevant, and there won't be any bail, and I will have remained in federal prison, or in prison, but state and federal total for six months without bail.
[22:51.300 --> 22:51.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: Unbelievable.
[22:53.160 --> 22:58.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, now, for those people that are interested in actually going to the trial tomorrow, first of all, will they be let in?
[22:59.160 --> 22:59.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[22:59.720 --> 23:00.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: They will be.
[23:00.280 --> 23:00.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[23:00.580 --> 23:02.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do you want to give details as to exactly where it is?
[23:02.640 --> 23:10.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: No one will be able to bring electronic devices with them, but, you know, like cellular phones or tape recorders or...
[23:10.220 --> 23:16.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: camcorders or things like that, so be forewarned, because there's no storage areas for these things, once you come into the building.
[23:17.340 --> 23:20.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, you can put them in your car, but in any case, it is...
[23:20.920 --> 23:30.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: The location is in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, at the federal courthouse, which is at 601 Market Street in Philadelphia.
[23:31.040 --> 23:33.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: The trial begins at 10 a.m.
[23:33.700 --> 23:36.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: in courtroom 9B, as in Bravo.
[23:37.960 --> 23:46.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: An interesting thing happened today, halfway through the suppression hearing, when things really seemed to be going our way, sirens started going off in the courtroom.
[23:46.640 --> 23:52.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I was ecstatic prior to the sirens going off, because it seemed to be going really well.
[23:52.680 --> 24:15.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then all this noise started going on, and sirens were going, and lights were flashing, and the Secret Service agent whirled around and looked at some of the computer hackers who were sitting in the peanut gallery, and eyeing them with bad intent, and assuming they had been responsible for this klaxon.
[24:15.540 --> 24:20.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it turns out there was a... the federal building was on fire.
[24:21.020 --> 24:23.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: The federal building was on fire that you were inside?
[24:23.540 --> 24:23.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes.
[24:24.120 --> 24:24.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, great.
[24:25.060 --> 24:30.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is a large building, but there was an electrical fire on the floor directly below us, and hence the fire alarm.
[24:31.180 --> 24:38.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: The judge was really annoyed by this interruption, and thought it was a fire drill, and really got bent out of shape about it.
[24:38.280 --> 24:41.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: So in any case, the entire building had to be evacuated.
[24:41.860 --> 24:43.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: So what, you conducted proceedings on the front lawn?
[24:44.220 --> 24:50.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unfortunately, the only people who were truly evacuated from the building were non-prisoners.
[24:51.100 --> 25:04.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was led down to the holding cell, where I'd been waiting in the morning before I went to this hearing, and put in leg irons and handcuffs, and locked in a cell on the second floor of the building.
[25:04.420 --> 25:05.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: The fire was on the seventh floor.
[25:05.720 --> 25:08.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: You were locked in a building that was burning?
[25:08.300 --> 25:12.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's correct, along with several other inmates, and then everybody left.
[25:13.160 --> 25:20.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I guess we were just there to burn in leg irons in a cell, or hopefully the fire would be put out before then.
[25:21.060 --> 25:24.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Since the fire was above us, I guess they figured there was less danger.
[25:24.900 --> 25:27.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: In any case, the marshals disappeared for quite a while.
[25:27.520 --> 25:30.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: Bernie, up until now, I've believed the whole story.
[25:30.360 --> 25:31.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: But you're making all this up, aren't you?
[25:32.060 --> 25:33.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're actually sitting at home someplace.
[25:34.040 --> 25:40.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: You've been sitting at home for six months, making up this fantastic story about being led away, and no bail, and burning buildings, and all that kind of thing.
[25:40.860 --> 25:42.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: This can't happen in this country, can it?
[25:42.880 --> 25:43.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Talk to my attorney.
[25:44.640 --> 25:45.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll tell you the same thing.
[25:46.580 --> 25:54.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, okay, but if you want to see it for yourself, folks, I suggest you go down to that trial tomorrow and just witness this, because this is unbelievable.
[25:54.400 --> 25:56.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: The things that have happened to you are just unbelievable.
[25:56.740 --> 25:59.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wouldn't believe it myself if it weren't happening to me.
[25:59.460 --> 26:07.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hey, Rob, over there in Amsterdam, you've been kept abreast of this case, I imagine, but I'm right to be shocked, aren't I?
[26:09.400 --> 26:10.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I don't know.
[26:11.040 --> 26:17.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've had some nasty surprises about the state of democracy over there and also over here.
[26:19.420 --> 26:23.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure I'm easily surprised anymore, but it is definitely weird.
[26:23.340 --> 26:25.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: It is beyond weird.
[26:27.000 --> 26:27.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[26:27.880 --> 26:36.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, we'll have some people down there tomorrow, Bernie, and hopefully things will finally go your way and this whole nightmare can be put behind us.
[26:38.200 --> 26:46.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: Either way, though, if you are on the Internet and you want to find out how things are going, you can finger the site bernys at 2600.com.
[26:46.060 --> 26:47.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: We'll be putting updates on there.
[26:48.020 --> 26:55.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: And also, of course, you can send mail to that address, and it will be forwarded to Bernie S, either in prison or outside of prison, depending on where he is next week.
[26:55.640 --> 26:59.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have one minute to go before the federal prison phone will cut me off.
[26:59.260 --> 27:17.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to interject one last comment, and that is the federal government tried to admit or did send additional information to my attorney yesterday with new evidence they wanted to admit at the last minute regarding cellular telephone calls that had been made in California up to two years ago,
[27:19.420 --> 27:25.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: and they were trying to attribute them to me, regardless of the fact that I've never been to California in my life.
[27:26.220 --> 27:34.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: But in any case, they were trying to drag these in without any explanation as to how I could have been responsible for them since I had no phones that were programmed with these numbers.
[27:35.900 --> 27:40.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: But unfortunately, they didn't provide crucial information like the exact dates of all these calls.
[27:40.640 --> 27:42.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: They just sort of said within a general time period.
[27:42.560 --> 27:48.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we don't have the time to thoroughly research and disprove all of these things.
[27:48.720 --> 27:55.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: So the plot thickens, and hopefully justice will prevail and...
[27:56.920 --> 27:58.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, with that, Bernie S.
[27:58.540 --> 28:02.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: has been cut off, and that's the last we'll hear from him for a while.
[28:02.980 --> 28:04.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: Of course, we won't be on next week.
[28:06.000 --> 28:14.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: So if you want to find out what happens at the trial, I guess the best way is to check in on the Internet site and also just talk to people on the net in various ways.
[28:16.020 --> 28:18.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: Rob, I want to thank you for the updates on Scientology.
[28:19.580 --> 28:21.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: Is there anything that you left out?
[28:22.800 --> 28:24.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think so.
[28:24.460 --> 28:37.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: What is really on my mind now is that if you're fighting the federal government or if you're fighting the Church of Scientology, at least with the federal government, you have some idea of what they're going to do.
[28:38.200 --> 28:41.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: The Church of Scientology has us worried for a number of reasons.
[28:41.820 --> 28:57.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: One of them is that they are extremely rich, that they are known to drag court procedures on and on and on until you just can't afford them anymore, and that there's no real rhyme and reason to what they're doing.
[28:58.800 --> 29:01.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's really funny.
[29:01.400 --> 29:03.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: What we're up against is really funny.
[29:03.720 --> 29:09.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not just us, but the entire net for disseminating information about Scientology.
[29:09.940 --> 29:10.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's really...
[29:11.060 --> 29:14.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's a case about the very principles that lie underneath the net.
[29:16.260 --> 29:17.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: It certainly is.
[29:17.480 --> 29:19.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: But the important thing for you to remember is that you're not alone.
[29:20.220 --> 29:22.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: You've got a lot of people out there on the net that are watching this case.
[29:24.200 --> 29:26.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have found out that we're not alone.
[29:26.100 --> 29:30.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've received, I think, over 250 support emails now.
[29:30.400 --> 29:40.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not just people, but organizations telling us, hey, if you ever need new computer stuff or if you ever need our people to work on your case, just tell us what to do.
[29:40.600 --> 29:42.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've received a lot of support, really.
[29:42.860 --> 29:46.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let's hope that some anonymous remailers go back up over there.
[29:46.200 --> 29:47.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, some more of them.
[29:47.640 --> 29:50.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let's hope this inspires lots of people to do just that.
[29:50.920 --> 29:55.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: Because, you know, anonymous communication is something I think that's essential in this day and age.
[29:56.920 --> 29:57.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, definitely.
[29:58.200 --> 30:00.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right, Rob, best of luck to you over there.
[30:00.460 --> 30:01.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: Extend our support to everybody.
[30:01.920 --> 30:03.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: And please keep us updated.
[30:03.280 --> 30:04.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: We'll do the same over here.
[30:04.740 --> 30:05.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[30:05.360 --> 30:07.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mark, Emmanuel, good luck with the rest of the show.
[30:07.620 --> 30:07.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[30:08.160 --> 30:08.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thanks.
[30:08.500 --> 30:09.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: We'll certainly need it, I think.
[30:10.400 --> 30:12.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: And thanks again over there in Amsterdam.
[30:12.460 --> 30:13.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: We'll be back in a minute.
[30:13.200 --> 30:17.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: Taking your phone calls, 212-279-3400.
[30:25.140 --> 30:32.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: When I got back home, I found a message on the door.
[30:34.080 --> 30:37.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sweet Regina's gone to China.
[31:08.400 --> 31:17.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll be back
[31:27.890 --> 31:29.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: in a minute.
[31:49.130 --> 31:55.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Guess Regina's on the plane, a newsweek on her knees.
[31:56.790 --> 32:03.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: While the miles below, the curlews call from strangely stunted trees.
[32:05.190 --> 32:10.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: The things it says, it's just as low, he's flying.
[32:21.870 --> 32:26.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: When you reach Kyoto, send a post.
[32:33.340 --> 32:37.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Three guards to cheap house, girl, you land.
[32:37.240 --> 32:42.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: I hope you won't be looking.
[33:03.540 --> 33:07.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let them in Japan.
[33:08.200 --> 33:11.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let them in Japan.
[33:22.720 --> 33:24.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let them in Japan.
[33:24.780 --> 33:28.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let them in Japan.
[33:30.660 --> 33:33.160]  [SPEAKER_21]: And we're back here on Off the Hook.
[33:36.340 --> 33:39.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: And our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[33:39.440 --> 33:41.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: That was... boy, that was old.
[33:41.580 --> 33:44.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: That was Brian Eno from Talking Tiger Mountain.
[33:44.360 --> 33:47.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: We also want to wish Pam a speedy recovery.
[33:47.340 --> 33:49.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: He was one of our regular listeners.
[33:49.380 --> 33:50.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: Actually, one of our regular people here.
[33:52.040 --> 33:53.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: He's not here now.
[33:53.840 --> 33:58.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, so now that we've done that, let's go back to the telephone.
[33:58.540 --> 34:05.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-279-3400, where you can tell us what's on your mind or what you think of what's happening here or whatever.
[34:05.620 --> 34:07.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-279-3400.
[34:07.260 --> 34:07.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[34:07.740 --> 34:08.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on Off the Hook.
[34:09.000 --> 34:10.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, Emmanuel.
[34:11.500 --> 34:16.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I stumbled on something quite interesting concerning the Church of Scientology.
[34:16.620 --> 34:17.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh-oh.
[34:17.960 --> 34:18.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[34:19.920 --> 34:26.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was what we call a theologian slash a very good book writer.
[34:26.640 --> 34:29.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: By the name of Walter Martin, he passed away in 1989.
[34:29.240 --> 34:32.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: He had a book called Kingdom of the Cults.
[34:32.900 --> 34:35.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he has a section in Scientology.
[34:36.100 --> 34:37.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you're not going to believe this.
[34:38.140 --> 34:45.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: They had this thing called Operation Snow White, which was an intelligence gathering operation.
[34:45.920 --> 34:57.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And from what I got from this book is basically they had dossiers on Nelson Rockefeller and even on then-president Richard Milhouse Nixon.
[34:58.760 --> 35:01.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I guess they just wanted to be thorough.
[35:02.480 --> 35:03.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah.
[35:04.320 --> 35:19.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Concerning a little more, if you don't mind, about the telephonic nature of things, I've come across payphones in South Jersey where if you follow the instructions, you know, pick up, you know, for local calls, you pick up, listen for dial tone, deposit 20 cents and make your call.
[35:20.100 --> 35:22.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I still get the little thing.
[35:22.720 --> 35:23.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're sorry.
[35:23.840 --> 35:27.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: A 20-cent deposit is, you know, required for this call.
[35:27.300 --> 35:31.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so I called up the operator and I could normally place the call.
[35:31.840 --> 35:34.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, it's another thing about Bell Atlantic.
[35:35.240 --> 35:39.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I dialed into a code cot and I got this modem.
[35:39.740 --> 35:43.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And at the end, I was listening to the line just for the hell of it.
[35:43.280 --> 35:44.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this is what I got.
[35:44.480 --> 35:45.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just listen.
[35:45.440 --> 35:46.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: It may be a little loud.
[35:47.680 --> 35:48.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Payphone.
[35:48.420 --> 35:55.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: 9-0-8-7-7-5-7-6-2-5-8-1-dollars.
[35:55.520 --> 35:58.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Alarm 4, alarm 15, alarm 16.
[36:00.900 --> 36:03.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's like the thing with payphones.
[36:04.000 --> 36:05.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, now, what kind of payphone is this?
[36:06.580 --> 36:12.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: It didn't look cheesy like the ones with that Sam-blasted chrome finish on it.
[36:12.580 --> 36:15.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: It looked like a standard bell phone, but obviously it wasn't.
[36:16.040 --> 36:16.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right.
[36:17.480 --> 36:20.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's telling you how much money is in the phone, I believe.
[36:20.640 --> 36:20.760]  Yeah.
[36:21.100 --> 36:22.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's what it sounded like.
[36:22.720 --> 36:28.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I guess various alarm states, which you'd have to have some sort of a manual to look up.
[36:28.720 --> 36:29.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: as to what exactly they mean.
[36:30.240 --> 36:30.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[36:30.680 --> 36:31.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah.
[36:31.180 --> 36:46.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: These particular two payphones, which I called, I had the problems, is a 609 area code, a 655 exchange, 9792 and 9750, just in case any Bell Atlantic phone technicians are out there.
[36:46.320 --> 36:48.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Those are the phones that are giving me a problem.
[36:48.300 --> 36:48.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[36:48.680 --> 36:51.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I doubt the Bell Atlantic people are going to help you since they're not Bell Atlantic phones.
[36:53.400 --> 36:55.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, I guess he said what he had to say.
[36:57.400 --> 37:02.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: But if they're not Bell Atlantic phones, you have to complain to the people that actually own the phones.
[37:04.240 --> 37:04.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[37:04.800 --> 37:07.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-279-3400.
[37:07.620 --> 37:08.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[37:08.800 --> 37:09.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on the air.
[37:09.500 --> 37:09.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, wow.
[37:10.000 --> 37:10.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: I can't believe it.
[37:11.500 --> 37:11.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[37:11.900 --> 37:13.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: This is your lucky day.
[37:13.200 --> 37:13.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[37:13.460 --> 37:14.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess it must be.
[37:15.980 --> 37:17.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have two questions.
[37:18.460 --> 37:25.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: One is, can you give that phone number that does what does 958 on the air?
[37:26.060 --> 37:28.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let me just turn off the radio, actually, because I'm hearing myself.
[37:28.840 --> 37:29.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hold on one second.
[37:31.480 --> 37:33.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm not quite sure what he means by that.
[37:34.660 --> 37:36.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, the nationwide...
[37:36.400 --> 37:36.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, the nationwide.
[37:36.940 --> 37:37.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[37:37.480 --> 37:39.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because the last time you gave it, you just gave the word.
[37:39.920 --> 37:42.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, it's, it's, well, gosh, I have to look at a phone.
[37:42.700 --> 37:44.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's 1-800-MY-AN-E-E-S.
[37:44.160 --> 37:54.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: That translates to 1-800-6-9-2-6-4-4-7.
[37:54.720 --> 37:55.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: 6-4-4-7.
[37:55.800 --> 37:57.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I just can't think that.
[37:57.100 --> 38:00.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the other thing is, I think it's a bit too late.
[38:00.600 --> 38:06.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was calling before when the fellow was on the radio from the prison.
[38:07.680 --> 38:14.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I wish he could have heard this, but I think they should subpoena the police log, because I assume they don't have the name of the other officer.
[38:14.840 --> 38:25.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: They should subpoena all documents concerning the patrol that arrested him so that they could actually have the arresting officer in the room, because the other guy lied.
[38:26.440 --> 38:35.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: And these things carry a little weight in a courtroom when the judge actually is confronted by somebody who is lying.
[38:35.560 --> 38:40.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm sure that if this man was there, he would have a conflicting story with his partner.
[38:41.320 --> 38:45.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Even if they tried to hone in, it would be very interesting, and they should do that.
[38:45.880 --> 38:48.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'll hang up and listen to your comments.
[38:48.640 --> 38:48.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[38:49.320 --> 38:50.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I mean, we've...
[38:51.400 --> 38:55.160]  [SPEAKER_21]: What do you think of this, Phiber, this whole policeman lying on the stand thing?
[38:55.260 --> 38:55.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean...
[38:55.680 --> 38:58.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I mean, it's not exactly a big shock to me.
[38:58.580 --> 39:12.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: When we were preparing for trial, and we had some pre-trial hearings, filing for motions and things like that, there were numerous instances where Secret Service agents lied on the stand.
[39:13.620 --> 39:14.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: To what degree?
[39:15.240 --> 39:24.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: To the degree that they claimed that they lost evidence, that they lost logs, that they lost files, that they lost transcripts, and so on and so forth.
[39:24.280 --> 39:26.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: Which would be to your advantage, files that...
[39:26.640 --> 39:29.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, actually, no.
[39:29.380 --> 39:31.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Why would they lose something that would be to our advantage?
[39:31.320 --> 39:35.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, I'm saying the fact that if they hadn't lost it, their existence would be to your advantage.
[39:36.120 --> 39:37.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, their existence, exactly.
[39:37.840 --> 39:37.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[39:38.040 --> 39:45.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, they would be in possession of something that would show that they did something crooked, where, in fact, they claim that they lost it, and the judge completely believed them.
[39:45.780 --> 39:48.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Because judges tend to always rule on the side of the government.
[39:49.140 --> 39:49.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: Very interesting.
[39:50.960 --> 39:53.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: Razor, you're here, and you have something to say about the Bernie S.
[39:53.440 --> 39:53.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: situation.
[39:53.800 --> 40:02.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I was just kind of watching this whole thing unfold and listening and observing just like anybody else.
[40:02.660 --> 40:09.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think it's a great travesty of the justice system for something as incomprehensible as this to occur.
[40:09.960 --> 40:25.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: However, the fact that a prisoner was left in chains to burn in the event of a possible fire seems kind of like a harsh punishment for sale of so-called illicit materials.
[40:26.040 --> 40:30.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I think it's not so much a harsh punishment as just standard treatment of prisoners.
[40:31.220 --> 40:43.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, but when standard treatment of prisoners entails burning someone at the cross for selling stuff you can buy out of a magazine, it seems kind of silly.
[40:43.480 --> 40:47.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, no, it seems kind of criminal to me, actually, that that kind of thing would happen.
[40:47.220 --> 40:49.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: And that's something I find hard to believe.
[40:50.000 --> 40:51.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: Actually, I don't find it hard to believe.
[40:51.480 --> 40:55.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: Maybe that's what's amazing, is that we're getting numb to all this.
[40:56.640 --> 40:57.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right, let's take another phone call.
[40:58.120 --> 41:00.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-279-3400.
[41:00.800 --> 41:01.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening, you're on.
[41:03.880 --> 41:04.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: Go ahead, speak.
[41:05.120 --> 41:05.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello?
[41:05.600 --> 41:05.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[41:06.600 --> 41:07.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: Go ahead, you're on.
[41:07.420 --> 41:08.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Turn my phone down.
[41:08.520 --> 41:10.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my radio down for a second.
[41:10.800 --> 41:25.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: I heard an interview a while back about where one of the people there was talking about ISDN and a way of getting local calls not to get the two-cent charge per minute.
[41:26.200 --> 41:27.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: One cent in New York.
[41:27.480 --> 41:29.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think it's, what, five cents in Bell Atlantic?
[41:29.260 --> 41:33.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so they said there's a way of configuring your ISDN line so that it would not charge you that.
[41:34.220 --> 41:36.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: You actually just configure your hardware.
[41:37.000 --> 41:44.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: And what you actually do is set up the call as an audio call and connect at 56 kilobits instead of 64.
[41:45.480 --> 41:55.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: And if you do that, you'll actually be charged only the cost for a normal local call, which in New York is 10.6 cents.
[41:56.000 --> 41:59.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: You won't achieve the high speed of 64, but you will achieve the speed of 56.
[42:00.200 --> 42:05.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, I mean, at an 8 kilobit hit, you don't get billed a penny a minute, which is well worth it.
[42:06.220 --> 42:06.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[42:06.940 --> 42:07.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, great.
[42:07.940 --> 42:09.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate that.
[42:09.260 --> 42:13.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: And how do I initiate my data connection after that?
[42:14.240 --> 42:16.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: This is actually in your hardware.
[42:16.320 --> 42:22.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: Normally, you would set a register in your hardware that would say set up the call as an audio call and connect using data.
[42:23.160 --> 42:23.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[42:23.840 --> 42:24.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's automatic.
[42:24.600 --> 42:26.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: It all depends on what ISDN hardware you have.
[42:26.840 --> 42:31.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I use a Gandalf box and a 3Com network card.
[42:33.040 --> 42:34.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: I haven't used either of them personally.
[42:35.040 --> 42:35.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[42:36.160 --> 42:37.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, we wish you luck with that.
[42:37.480 --> 42:38.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right, thank you.
[42:38.160 --> 42:38.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: Take care.
[42:39.120 --> 42:42.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think a lot more people are getting onto ISDN than what I'm hearing.
[42:42.640 --> 42:44.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, we were the pioneers back this spring.
[42:44.880 --> 42:47.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: We had to go through that ridiculous journey to get it.
[42:48.520 --> 42:51.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: But now that we've got it, people seem to be getting it a lot easier.
[42:51.560 --> 42:58.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: And in fact, becoming more, I guess, educated as to how it all works, how it all ties together.
[42:59.200 --> 43:02.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, we'll be ISDN the next couple of days at 2600.
[43:02.240 --> 43:02.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yep.
[43:02.840 --> 43:06.560]  [SPEAKER_21]: As far as 2600.com, that should improve our connect rate quite a bit.
[43:07.660 --> 43:08.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[43:08.260 --> 43:08.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on the air.
[43:10.280 --> 43:10.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: Speak up.
[43:12.160 --> 43:17.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, people, let me just say right here now, when I pick up the phone, you should be there.
[43:17.620 --> 43:20.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: You shouldn't be on another part of the room, another part of the house, you know, out doing errands.
[43:20.660 --> 43:21.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: You should be on the phone.
[43:21.720 --> 43:25.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's, you know, make the phone call, stay on the phone, and then we'll pick it up and we can talk.
[43:26.280 --> 43:28.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right, let's see if this next person understands that.
[43:29.180 --> 43:29.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[43:29.660 --> 43:30.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on the air.
[43:30.820 --> 43:31.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening.
[43:31.660 --> 43:32.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: Ah, very good.
[43:32.460 --> 43:33.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm right here.
[43:33.260 --> 43:34.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm not in another part of the room or anything.
[43:34.560 --> 43:34.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Great.
[43:34.960 --> 43:35.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: Isn't that nice?
[43:35.640 --> 43:36.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, it makes things so easy.
[43:37.660 --> 43:45.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Actually, I wasn't listening to WBAI until just about five minutes ago because I heard about it on IRC.
[43:46.160 --> 43:46.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, really?
[43:46.820 --> 43:57.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: There's a channel called Hashmark Clambake that is devoted largely to discussions of alt-religion, Scientology, Scientology in general, et cetera.
[43:58.380 --> 44:02.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: And someone said, hey, Rop is on WBAI.
[44:02.400 --> 44:03.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I said, okay, I'll have to tune in.
[44:04.140 --> 44:04.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[44:05.460 --> 44:10.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: At any rate, just to fill you in, there was someone who called earlier about Operation Snow White.
[44:10.160 --> 44:11.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: That did happen.
[44:12.220 --> 44:15.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: And in Mary Sue Hubbard, L.
[44:15.740 --> 44:19.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: Ron Hubbard's wife, and I think nine other Scientologists were guilty.
[44:19.980 --> 44:32.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: She went to jail for five years and, well, she was sentenced for five years and fined $10,000 for essentially conspiring to infiltrate the FBI and steal and IRS, et cetera.
[44:32.620 --> 44:34.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: Anyway, but that's not what I'm calling about.
[44:34.740 --> 44:40.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: I essentially didn't know anything about Scientology until a few months ago when I heard about their attacks on the Internet.
[44:41.700 --> 44:50.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I've been devoted to, a devoted reader of alt-religion Scientology, which is getting more and more difficult all the time because the volume is getting so huge.
[44:51.020 --> 44:56.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's gone from about 300 posters about a month and a half ago.
[44:56.760 --> 44:58.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: I think last week we had 300 posters a week.
[44:58.980 --> 45:01.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now it's about 650 in the past week.
[45:02.180 --> 45:04.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: So it's doubled in a little over a month.
[45:04.600 --> 45:07.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, what kind of percentage of the posters are pro-Scientology?
[45:07.980 --> 45:08.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: What percentage are anti?
[45:09.100 --> 45:10.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, virtually none of them are pro-Scientology.
[45:11.220 --> 45:22.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: I think most of the lower-level Scientologists have been warned away from even reading the news group because of what they call ntheta that are spread there, that is spread there.
[45:22.620 --> 45:24.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: In other words, the bad vibes.
[45:24.020 --> 45:32.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: However, as I understand it, the intelligence and PR wing of the church has sent a few people in.
[45:32.540 --> 45:45.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: And there are some posts that are just, for the most part, incredibly lame about what wonderful things Scientology did for some unnamed person or something like that.
[45:45.840 --> 46:01.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Or otherwise, another thing that they do, before they raided Larry Wallersheim, I don't know if you covered this in your earlier talk, they raided a computer user in Colorado and took his, a bulletin board operator and took his computer, etc.
[46:01.760 --> 46:04.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: And this is about a week and a half ago.
[46:04.720 --> 46:15.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: Before they raided him, they posted, the PR person for the church posted, an enormous pack of essentially ad hominem attacks against him.
[46:15.600 --> 46:19.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: And then three days later, he was raided for copyright infringement.
[46:19.360 --> 46:29.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: And later, it was found that the list of words they were searching for included a lot of names of people who were critics of theirs, including those posting to the bulletin board.
[46:29.720 --> 46:33.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I can assure you, those names were not in the copyrighted secret scriptures.
[46:34.420 --> 46:48.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: At any rate, there's some plan to have a worldwide ticket of Scientology this Saturday to protest both, in general, the tactics of the leadership of the church.
[46:49.120 --> 46:54.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: Although I think most people don't deny anyone the right to pursue whatever religion they choose.
[46:54.580 --> 46:59.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: I think the tactics of the leadership are disreputable and should be taken.
[46:59.020 --> 47:03.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I think the true measure of a religion is how that religion treats its critics.
[47:04.600 --> 47:08.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I don't think Scientology is really getting high marks in that regard.
[47:08.660 --> 47:10.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, I'll have to go along with you there.
[47:10.780 --> 47:13.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I wasn't even a critic until a couple months ago.
[47:13.000 --> 47:18.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I've already gotten a threatening legal email, or quasi-legal email.
[47:19.760 --> 47:24.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: And also for the people who are upset about the general attack on the Internet.
[47:25.860 --> 47:42.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: And there's really not been much organization in New York, but considering that I have this mouthpiece on WBAI, maybe if people want to consider picketing or contact someone about it, I would be willing to take on that role, although I haven't done much about it yet.
[47:42.960 --> 47:44.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: And they could email me if they wish.
[47:44.860 --> 47:45.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, give out your address.
[47:46.080 --> 47:58.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, it's Spurgeon, that's spelled S-P-U-R-G-E-O-N, at is2.nyu.edu.
[48:00.380 --> 48:00.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[48:01.000 --> 48:02.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: So, anyone who's in...
[48:02.680 --> 48:05.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, and all the people on Clambeck, say hi to you, Emmanuel.
[48:05.460 --> 48:06.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: They're big fans of yours.
[48:06.760 --> 48:09.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, well, we extend the greeting right back to them.
[48:09.440 --> 48:12.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, we just had a net split, so it'll take me a few minutes to get it to them.
[48:12.780 --> 48:14.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: But it's good talking to you.
[48:14.860 --> 48:16.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, what would IRC be without net splits?
[48:16.680 --> 48:17.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thanks very much.
[48:17.360 --> 48:17.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: Bye.
[48:17.820 --> 48:18.160]  [SPEAKER_21]: Take care.
[48:19.380 --> 48:26.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, we are giving out a couple more addresses here for people that are interested in this Scientology thing.
[48:26.540 --> 48:34.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: First of all, the homepage for the person that was at the center of it all, the user on Access4All, if you want to see what was on there.
[48:34.660 --> 48:44.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: I understand he took off the offending piece that supposedly got them to come in here in the first place.
[48:45.820 --> 48:50.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: But there is a link to another site that has that very same document.
[48:51.260 --> 49:01.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: So you can see what's there, what the whole mess is all about on the World Wide Web or use links or whatever you use to look at these things.
[49:01.100 --> 49:09.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: The address is http colon double slash www dot x s for the number four A-L-L.
[49:09.940 --> 49:19.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, the letter x, the letter s, the number four A-L-L dot N-L slash and then that little squiggle thing, what do they call that thing?
[49:19.300 --> 49:19.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: Tilda.
[49:19.720 --> 49:20.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: Tilda.
[49:20.480 --> 49:21.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right, whatever.
[49:21.680 --> 49:24.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: The squiggle thing, F-O-N-S-S.
[49:24.420 --> 49:26.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: F-O-N-S-S.
[49:26.160 --> 49:27.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's the username there.
[49:27.500 --> 49:29.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: And you can just connect over there and see what's there.
[49:29.740 --> 49:31.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: A couple of other sites.
[49:32.960 --> 49:47.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: H-T-T-P colon slash slash www dot cybercom, C-Y-B-E-R-C-O-M dot net slash squiggle R Newman, R-N-E-W-M-A-N slash Scientology slash home dot H-T-M-L.
[49:48.680 --> 49:56.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: Also newsgroups alt dot religion dot Scientology, as the caller just mentioned, alt dot censorship and alt dot clearing dot technology.
[49:56.620 --> 50:01.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: And also alt dot 2600 now, since access for all was included here.
[50:02.380 --> 50:08.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know, these mega corporation religious types, they're kind of going to be concerned about, don't you think?
[50:08.460 --> 50:17.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, in fact, it's so mainstream now that, of all places, I saw a report on cults on MTV a few weeks ago.
[50:17.180 --> 50:22.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, Scientology was mentioned, and in fact, they did mention that whole thing about L.
[50:22.360 --> 50:24.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Ron Hubbard's wife doing all this and that.
[50:25.380 --> 50:33.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, they, uh, they, they didn't, after I saw it, it didn't sound like a very, uh, friendly organization.
[50:33.520 --> 50:38.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: The thing that really, that really startled me is the number of, uh, Hollywood stars that are Scientologists.
[50:38.960 --> 50:40.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, quite a few.
[50:40.260 --> 50:41.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, John Travolta.
[50:41.300 --> 50:41.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[50:41.680 --> 50:42.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: John Travolta is one.
[50:42.840 --> 50:44.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: Joker, you have, uh, you have some info for us.
[50:44.740 --> 50:50.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to talk about, is the fact that, uh, they do have all this money and power.
[50:50.200 --> 51:00.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: You get a lot of these Hollywood stars who have, um, I think, like, a lot of people probably come from all sorts of different backgrounds where they have, you know, I, I mean, myself being raised Catholic and now I'm in recovery.
[51:00.720 --> 51:04.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, you know, I, yeah, I just, I just grew out of it.
[51:04.820 --> 51:05.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't go to church.
[51:05.780 --> 51:06.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not around my family anymore.
[51:06.760 --> 51:12.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they've, I don't really know a lot about Scientology's ideas, but it seems to appeal to these people with, with money and backing.
[51:12.840 --> 51:16.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it seems like a, a, a mafia.
[51:16.280 --> 51:17.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they, they all scratch each other's back.
[51:18.120 --> 51:20.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: The name that I was going to mention was Tom Cruise.
[51:20.520 --> 51:20.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[51:21.020 --> 51:21.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[51:21.340 --> 51:23.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I knew John Travolta, but I mean, Tom Cruise.
[51:23.740 --> 51:39.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: And with this sort of backing and they have people being, you know, like the, the remailers who are, being able to post things about them, I can see where they're, you know, really sketched about bad publicity because they have all these well-known people and it kind of,
[51:39.480 --> 51:41.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess, shines on them a little bit too.
[51:41.920 --> 51:53.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: So it, I don't know who's protecting whose interests, but I could see where some of these stars would not want a lot of negative press about their religion and about them because it's exactly like us talking about it.
[51:53.820 --> 51:56.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: Scientology gets a slap in the face and then all their names are brought up.
[51:56.700 --> 51:59.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, Scientology is doing all these bad things.
[51:59.020 --> 52:03.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, John Travolta and Tom Cruise are Scientologists, you know, I mean, so.
[52:04.260 --> 52:07.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: I hope this radio station is known by the Scientology people.
[52:07.520 --> 52:07.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: I hope so.
[52:08.960 --> 52:14.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: We find out these things sometimes, you know, without knowing it, but no, I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure it's still Pacifica.
[52:15.400 --> 52:16.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, all right.
[52:16.500 --> 52:17.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thank God for that.
[52:17.760 --> 52:18.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, it's scary.
[52:18.640 --> 52:19.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: It really is.
[52:19.360 --> 52:20.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know what's funny, though?
[52:21.080 --> 52:32.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm not saying that the Scientology is doing this, but certain cult organizations, they pick the organizations that are going after cults, and they accuse them of being cults.
[52:32.880 --> 52:36.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: They say these organizations that are going around shutting down cults are cults themselves.
[52:37.380 --> 52:45.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: And they give all this evidence and show how they have their own doctrines, and they won't let people leave their organizations and things like that.
[52:45.580 --> 52:47.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's kind of weird, you know.
[52:48.100 --> 52:49.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, all right, let's take another phone call.
[52:49.780 --> 52:50.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening, you're on.
[52:51.140 --> 52:54.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, I wanted to ask you a question about IDT Internet.
[52:54.460 --> 52:56.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Have you heard about that?
[52:56.600 --> 52:57.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've heard their ads.
[52:58.440 --> 52:58.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[52:59.140 --> 53:01.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: But I don't know anything about the actual service.
[53:01.520 --> 53:09.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, because they claim to have just a flat $15 a month rate, and they claim that they don't have the censorship that all the big companies have.
[53:10.240 --> 53:11.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: It almost seems too good to be true.
[53:11.640 --> 53:16.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, censorship is something that only a few companies really have.
[53:17.000 --> 53:17.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: AOL has censorship.
[53:18.560 --> 53:18.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: Prodigy.
[53:19.060 --> 53:20.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: Prodigy has censorship.
[53:20.440 --> 53:21.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: ConfuServe, do they have censorship?
[53:21.680 --> 53:21.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: No.
[53:22.180 --> 53:23.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't think Netcom has censorship.
[53:24.480 --> 53:25.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: Joker, what do you have?
[53:25.140 --> 53:33.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, speaking of cults, there's actually, I think it's in the new issue of Internet World, there's an interesting little blurb about Prodigy's new logo, which is a star.
[53:34.040 --> 53:34.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: It looks like a pentagram.
[53:35.020 --> 53:35.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's really funny.
[53:35.700 --> 53:37.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you take a look at it, Prodigy's new logo is...
[53:37.580 --> 53:39.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: This isn't that Procter & Gamble thing all over again.
[53:39.720 --> 53:39.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: No.
[53:41.340 --> 53:53.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: I also wanted to ask you about, well, I guess you don't know if they have it, but if they have full Internet service, then you would assume you can get a Slip account, which would enable you to use iPhone.
[53:54.300 --> 53:54.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is that right?
[53:55.100 --> 53:55.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh-huh.
[53:57.080 --> 53:58.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Roman, you have something for us.
[53:58.680 --> 54:02.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, actually, IDT's $15 per month rate only includes a Shell account.
[54:02.640 --> 54:06.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: For $29.95, I believe, they offer everything.
[54:06.580 --> 54:09.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I don't know if that's the best deal you can find in New York City.
[54:09.840 --> 54:10.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Look around.
[54:10.900 --> 54:15.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, there's all kinds of different services, so you really have to shop around.
[54:15.480 --> 54:15.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[54:15.840 --> 54:29.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, you know, at least we have a company that's advertising non-censorship and access to everything and one low-cost, no-per-minute charges as something that should be expected.
[54:29.660 --> 54:38.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: And so that means that, you know, things like AOL and CompuServe that charge by the minute, they're going to go away, you know, and everyone's going to charge one rate and give access to everything.
[54:38.420 --> 54:41.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: I actually heard an IDT horror story myself.
[54:41.740 --> 54:42.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, really?
[54:42.200 --> 54:49.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, it was a new subscriber had ordered an IDT service, and they were using a Mac.
[54:50.140 --> 55:04.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: And what happened was they didn't tell the Mac user that their graphical Mac interface software from IDT wasn't yet ready, so they proceeded to send them the Windows software and started billing them.
[55:05.200 --> 55:10.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: When the person got the bill, they called up IDT and they said, well, why'd you start billing me?
[55:10.420 --> 55:11.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: I couldn't even use your service.
[55:11.960 --> 55:12.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: I never even logged in.
[55:13.320 --> 55:16.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, you know, the software you sent me is wrong.
[55:16.280 --> 55:17.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: And they're like, well, what do you mean?
[55:17.040 --> 55:18.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: We sent you a software for Windows.
[55:19.220 --> 55:20.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I'm like, but I have a Mac.
[55:22.200 --> 55:24.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: So what eventually wound up happening?
[55:24.440 --> 55:26.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: That was the last I actually heard of it.
[55:26.240 --> 55:32.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Apparently the people at IDT didn't really understand the difference between Windows and Mac.
[55:32.760 --> 55:33.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: Where are they based?
[55:34.840 --> 55:35.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not really sure.
[55:35.920 --> 55:36.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anybody know?
[55:36.520 --> 55:36.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you know, Robin?
[55:36.960 --> 55:40.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: They are actually a long-distance carrier reseller for MCI, I believe.
[55:40.900 --> 55:42.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: And they're based in New Jersey.
[55:43.320 --> 55:43.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: Really?
[55:43.820 --> 55:44.160]  [SPEAKER_21]: New Jersey?
[55:44.300 --> 55:45.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: And they have New York City dial-ups.
[55:45.800 --> 55:46.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[55:46.840 --> 55:47.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, that's interesting.
[55:47.520 --> 55:53.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: So hopefully people will give us more information as they use them and, you know, tell us what their service is like.
[55:53.800 --> 55:55.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: See if we can squeeze in one or two more.
[55:55.460 --> 55:55.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[55:55.840 --> 55:56.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on.
[55:56.540 --> 55:56.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[55:56.980 --> 55:57.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
[56:06.960 --> 56:08.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do you want to tell us something about that group?
[56:08.780 --> 56:09.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Pardon me?
[56:09.440 --> 56:11.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: Who is the American Telephone?
[56:11.180 --> 56:20.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, the American Telephone Consumers Council is about a 35-year-old organization that was very active in the recent New York telephone rate case.
[56:21.140 --> 56:21.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[56:21.620 --> 56:24.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the big point that we want to make, it's very difficult.
[56:25.080 --> 56:35.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is the month that the rate increases that we fought for months ago finally take effect and they would affect a lot of your customers, I mean, of your listeners.
[56:36.240 --> 56:36.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Give me...
[56:36.500 --> 56:48.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: In, for instance, Nassau County where we're getting people a reduction on their flat-rate charge from $22 and change, excuse me, to $20 and 16 cents.
[56:48.200 --> 56:50.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I believe that's also responsible for cutting out the Touch-Tone fee.
[56:51.120 --> 56:51.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Pardon me?
[56:51.620 --> 56:52.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, yes.
[56:52.400 --> 56:58.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, that's for all residential customers will no longer pay the 50 cents on the Touch-Tone fee.
[56:58.660 --> 56:59.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: Is there still a fee for business?
[57:00.620 --> 57:01.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: No.
[57:01.300 --> 57:03.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Business will still pay a Touch-Tone rate.
[57:03.560 --> 57:05.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: They didn't get rid of that yet.
[57:05.820 --> 57:06.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: Really?
[57:06.200 --> 57:07.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're reducing it.
[57:07.460 --> 57:11.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't have the thing on that because we didn't do anything on business rates.
[57:11.480 --> 57:11.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[57:12.360 --> 57:23.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, there are other rate reductions that will be coming through next year, next September for places like Great Neck and in Cedarhurst and Oyster Bay.
[57:23.240 --> 57:26.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's a whole slew of rate reductions in the...
[57:26.460 --> 57:32.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is in the flat-rate charge, which was where the charge was really very far out.
[57:32.960 --> 57:41.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Our main group was in Buffalo where they, for many years, they paid the highest flat-rate in the state and the nation.
[57:42.490 --> 58:03.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: But it would be interesting to know that the only municipalities that were represented in the rate case and worked on this were Buffalo, the law departments of Buffalo and Erie County and Nassau County because those people were paying the highest rate for their flat-rate service.
[58:03.880 --> 58:18.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's interesting to note that if other municipalities had been in on this, they may have really done something about reducing the residential rates.
[58:18.320 --> 58:21.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: But unfortunately, they weren't there.
[58:21.220 --> 58:26.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: But the few that were there were able to get this done.
[58:28.580 --> 58:37.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: And if people want to know just which central office designations are getting the rate reduction, I'll give you a couple of them.
[58:38.000 --> 58:40.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: And if they'd like, they could call us for further...
[58:40.120 --> 58:40.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[58:40.280 --> 58:42.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: You have about one minute, so please do that.
[58:43.340 --> 58:43.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[58:43.980 --> 58:54.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I guess, like, for instance, 481 in Nassau County, they get the $2.11 rate reduction and several others here.
[58:54.840 --> 58:55.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a whole list.
[58:55.620 --> 59:03.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: But if they want to know for sure, our number is 212-987-5514.
[59:04.840 --> 59:08.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they could either call and leave a message, and we'll get back to them.
[59:09.100 --> 59:09.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[59:09.380 --> 59:10.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thanks very much for the info.
[59:10.200 --> 59:12.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good luck in the future with your battles.
[59:12.520 --> 59:13.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[59:13.240 --> 59:13.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[59:13.580 --> 59:13.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: Take care.
[59:14.260 --> 59:16.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: And that's going to do it for us for this week.
[59:18.300 --> 59:21.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, in fact, it's going to do it for us for next week, too, because we're not on next week.
[59:21.260 --> 59:24.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: But we'll be on in two weeks, and it'll be fundraising time then.
[59:24.840 --> 59:26.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: So that's going to be a ton of fun.
[59:26.940 --> 59:27.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: Isn't that right, Phiber?
[59:27.860 --> 59:28.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: Tons of fun.
[59:28.500 --> 59:28.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[59:28.800 --> 59:30.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: We look forward to this all the time.
[59:30.900 --> 59:32.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: And so tune in then.
[59:32.360 --> 59:34.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: Tune in next week, of course, for the Personal Computer Show special.
[59:36.020 --> 59:39.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: And stay tuned for a rebroadcast of the WBAI Evening News.
[59:39.780 --> 59:41.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: Until then, Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[59:41.500 --> 59:41.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good night.