Off The Hook - 1995-09-20

[00:03.460 --> 00:06.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Four and more for Miles Davis.
[00:07.100 --> 00:09.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: Miles Davis biographer, Quincy Troop.
[00:09.720 --> 00:16.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: A carrier of incandescent dreams, this blade-thin shadow man, jagged by lightning.
[00:17.260 --> 00:20.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Crystal silhouette prowling over blue stained pigments.
[00:20.300 --> 00:22.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: He always heard in the middle register rather than the upper register.
[00:22.740 --> 00:24.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Until later, he started hearing it.
[00:24.580 --> 00:27.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he used to ask Dizzy, how come I can't play like you?
[00:27.860 --> 00:29.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: He said, how come I can't play like you?
[00:29.440 --> 00:32.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he said, you do play like me, only you play it in the lower register.
[00:32.320 --> 00:36.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so, but everybody in the East was, everybody in the East was used to that high trumpet lick.
[00:37.760 --> 00:39.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Car horns, that kind of thing.
[00:39.520 --> 00:40.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's a way of hearing.
[00:41.780 --> 00:58.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: Join Mr. Troop along with musicians Max Roach, Reggie Workman, and a plethora of other voices as we here at WBAI celebrate a master musician, Miles Davis, in a 12-hour membership drive special, Sunday, September 24th, from 1 in the afternoon to 1 in the morning.
[00:58.720 --> 01:03.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: Only over at WBAI New York, 99.5 FM.
[01:10.900 --> 01:12.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:12.620 --> 01:16.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is not the personal computer show, as you may have guessed.
[01:16.700 --> 01:19.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a special edition of Off the Hook.
[01:19.880 --> 01:29.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Off the Hook being the program about hackers, technology, privacy, Big Brother, that kind of thing, which usually comes your way every Wednesday night at 10 o'clock.
[01:29.800 --> 01:30.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you know what?
[01:30.980 --> 01:34.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: It will be coming your way next Wednesday night at 10 o'clock.
[01:34.620 --> 01:37.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: But after that, there's going to be some changes.
[01:38.460 --> 01:39.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Stay tuned.
[01:45.560 --> 02:07.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call It could be yet much worse But if they could, they would Bumbin' LeBomb But the best expect the worst I hope that's understood Bumbin' LeBomb
[03:02.730 --> 03:04.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a very good evening, everybody.
[03:04.050 --> 03:05.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[03:05.310 --> 03:06.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: The program's Off the Hook.
[03:06.430 --> 03:08.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we're here for three hours tonight.
[03:08.310 --> 03:09.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think we're here for three hours.
[03:09.570 --> 03:10.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're either here for two hours or three hours.
[03:11.270 --> 03:12.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to find out for sure.
[03:12.710 --> 03:13.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: One way or another.
[03:13.330 --> 03:15.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we've got some very special things to come your way.
[03:16.130 --> 03:18.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've got some announcements, some changes.
[03:20.330 --> 03:21.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some scary stuff, too.
[03:22.310 --> 03:25.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: All kinds of things to look forward to.
[03:25.250 --> 03:27.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: So stay tuned.
[03:28.050 --> 03:33.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: We also have a couple of packages that I think will be unique.
[03:33.850 --> 03:34.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's put it that way.
[03:34.930 --> 03:37.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Our number is 212-279-3400.
[03:37.510 --> 03:43.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of course, we appreciate any pledge that people will call in and donate right off the bat.
[03:43.270 --> 03:52.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if you want to stick around for a few minutes and see what it is that we actually have to offer in exchange for this we'll be announcing that in just a minute or two.
[03:54.170 --> 04:00.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we're going to be playing some material related to the Hacker's movie which just came out.
[04:01.350 --> 04:05.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: So if you're one of the people that have seen that please stay tuned.
[04:05.570 --> 04:06.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll find that very interesting.
[04:06.850 --> 04:16.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And hopefully if we get enough pledges and if we're on schedule we'll be able to take some phone calls from people about the film see how many people have actually seen it and what their feelings on it are.
[04:16.610 --> 04:18.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, stay tuned.
[04:18.130 --> 04:19.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: The program is off the hook.
[04:19.550 --> 04:23.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Your pledges are accepted at 212-279-3400.
[04:45.500 --> 04:46.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, one person called.
[04:46.900 --> 04:47.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's good enough.
[04:47.800 --> 04:55.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: That makes me happy to know there's at least one person out there that cares enough to call and pledge support to this radio station and to off the hook.
[04:56.620 --> 04:58.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[04:58.260 --> 05:01.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, let's cover the most important thing first.
[05:02.080 --> 05:06.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: The future of this particular radio program is going to change.
[05:06.580 --> 05:07.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[05:07.520 --> 05:16.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Usually we're on Wednesday nights at 10pm and we're going to be on next Wednesday night at 10pm but the week after that we're going to be moving to Tuesday nights at 8pm.
[05:17.020 --> 05:17.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[05:17.580 --> 05:22.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Tuesday at 8 is the new time for off the hook starting October 3rd.
[05:22.650 --> 05:34.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, if you have lives to plan you might want to make some changes now as far as work schedules school schedules sleeping schedules things like that.
[05:34.400 --> 05:36.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: A little bit earlier two hours earlier and a different day.
[05:37.340 --> 05:39.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Tuesdays, 8pm starting October 3rd.
[05:40.460 --> 05:47.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, tell your friends tell your neighbors tell the feds tell everybody because I'm sure they'll all want to know about it.
[05:48.480 --> 05:53.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have some news regarding Bernie S who will not be calling us tonight.
[05:55.100 --> 05:58.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: He is actually he's got a very big day tomorrow.
[05:58.800 --> 06:17.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Last we checked which was two weeks ago the trial was about to begin and Bernie S was ready to defend himself against the charges that had put him in prison since last March with no bail.
[06:17.820 --> 06:29.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: What has wound up happening is that I guess the best way to phrase it is to use Bernie S his own words himself he was forced to make a deal with the devil and plead guilty.
[06:30.040 --> 06:56.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's unfortunate but the way the law is worded the way this particular statute currently reads anybody who possesses a certain amount of technology which can be used doesn't have to be used in a particular way but if it can be used in that way such as software hardware or something which can make five little beeps into a payphone if you have something on you or in your possession or in your
[06:56.260 --> 06:59.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: home that can do that technically you are guilty.
[06:59.560 --> 07:13.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now the odds of convincing a jury that you are not guilty of something like that when they don't even understand what the technology is in the first place well the odds seemed rather dim at that particular point in time.
[07:14.480 --> 07:33.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Also there was the case which was mentioned here two weeks ago where the federal government had brought up this kind of weird piece of evidence that they had found they say they found phone numbers on a disk which had been linked to cellular fraud in California.
[07:33.600 --> 07:56.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now what we are talking about here is a commercially available disk that had some phone numbers in some sort of a database which Bernie S had no control over or no knowledge of he just happened to have the disk as well as thousands of other people in the country had the same disk so they were going to use this and try and charge him with committing cellular fraud in a distant state which he had
[07:56.560 --> 08:17.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: never been in which he had never had anything to do with again the odds of a jury understanding this appeared very dim the disadvantages to going before a jury being found guilty very much outweigh the disadvantages of pleading guilty in the first place by pleading guilty Bernie S.
[08:18.260 --> 08:19.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: is up for sentencing tomorrow.
[08:20.600 --> 08:27.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: In all likelihood, he will be sentenced to something like either zero to six months in prison or two to eight months in prison.
[08:27.420 --> 08:33.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Since he has already been in prison for six months, there is hopefully a very good chance he will be free tomorrow.
[08:34.260 --> 08:38.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, a lot of people, of course, are wringing their hands in despair, saying, oh no, what does this mean?
[08:39.100 --> 08:40.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it's good and bad.
[08:40.240 --> 08:51.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of course, it's good for Bernie, who I think has paid enough for this particular ridiculous law that has somehow been passed without any objections from any of our civil liberties groups.
[08:53.170 --> 08:55.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's brought attention to this law.
[08:55.290 --> 08:56.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: We all know about it now.
[08:56.760 --> 09:04.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: We all know that every single one of us is in danger because virtually anything that we have on our possession can be used in some way to defraud the phone company.
[09:05.920 --> 09:16.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Our voices, our brains, but more importantly, any particular piece of technology that we happen to be carrying around with us that might be programmed to emit the wrong tones, that could be used.
[09:16.980 --> 09:18.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: You could be held without bail.
[09:19.880 --> 09:32.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: This case was also significant in that they went into his home, they seized his books, they analyzed his books, and tried to paint the picture of some sort of a terrorist because of his reading material, very Fahrenheit 451-ish.
[09:33.240 --> 09:40.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Also, there were numerous instances of his rights being violated in other ways.
[09:40.690 --> 09:51.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: There were numerous assumptions being made as to what kind of a person he was simply based on things as innocuous as a list of Secret Service frequencies, something that we've published in 2600 many, many times.
[09:52.760 --> 09:56.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: By having this in his possession, all of a sudden, hey, you have an interest in the Secret Service.
[09:56.400 --> 09:58.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: That means that you must be a terrorist.
[09:58.330 --> 09:59.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: You must be out to get somebody.
[09:59.850 --> 10:08.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And by saying this to a judge, they were actually able to convince this judge that this person posed some sort of a threat to society.
[10:09.000 --> 10:10.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Imagine what could have been done with a jury.
[10:11.190 --> 10:18.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's very sad to think this way, but it happens to be the case that he really didn't have a choice.
[10:19.120 --> 10:21.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think most of us probably would have done the same thing.
[10:21.660 --> 10:25.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's bad for everybody else, obviously, because this law still remains.
[10:26.230 --> 10:31.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: And any one of us could be picked up in the next day or so because of this.
[10:31.690 --> 10:35.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's something that has to be changed, something we have to bring attention to.
[10:36.160 --> 10:38.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: So hopefully, we'll do that here on the radio.
[10:38.570 --> 10:39.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hopefully, we've been doing that here.
[10:40.710 --> 10:41.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: It needs to keep going.
[10:42.070 --> 10:42.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, Bernie S.
[10:43.070 --> 10:43.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: is not stopping there.
[10:44.090 --> 10:55.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's pleading under what is known as the Zoodik plea, which allows you to plead guilty, yet at the same time challenge the constitutionality of the law that you are guilty of violating.
[10:56.350 --> 11:08.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And since, in all likelihood, he will be free tomorrow or over the next couple of days, he will be able to actually fight this thing with some resources at his disposal.
[11:09.400 --> 11:12.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: So there's an advantage to being free for that particular fight as well.
[11:12.850 --> 11:14.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: But he's going to need help.
[11:14.400 --> 11:22.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's going to need support and publicity to a degree to get the word out of just what exactly it is that's happening here and what has happened here.
[11:22.120 --> 11:23.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: We can't let this just go by.
[11:24.620 --> 11:32.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: There have been other cases over the past week or so of Secret Service raids going on over the nation, actually, all throughout the nation.
[11:33.830 --> 11:42.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And these, again, center on cellular, alleged cellular fraud, although I've heard all kinds of of differing stories to what it was actually that they were looking for.
[11:42.830 --> 11:53.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: In one case in particular, they raided one person because he had sold an ESN reader, electronic serial number of cellular phones transmitted through the airwaves.
[11:53.400 --> 11:57.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you have a particular receiver, you can see what those numbers are.
[11:57.260 --> 11:58.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's really all it does.
[11:58.180 --> 12:00.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: It tells you what the numbers are that are being transmitted in the clear.
[12:01.300 --> 12:06.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can buy these ESN readers from catalogs for, I guess, up to a thousand dollars or so.
[12:06.420 --> 12:15.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: What this person had done, his crime was buying one, which isn't a crime, by the way, and then reselling it to somebody else, I believe at a 2600 meeting.
[12:15.820 --> 12:22.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And by doing that, somehow, in the eyes of the Secret Service, that makes him guilty of a crime.
[12:22.900 --> 12:28.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's awfully bizarre, but they were able to convince the judge to hold him on $100,000 bail.
[12:28.280 --> 12:30.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: They later got that knocked down to $25,000.
[12:31.090 --> 12:32.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: It just gets crazier and crazier.
[12:33.090 --> 12:49.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: It also turns out that there was one person who had been coming to the meetings and had been making himself rather well-known in the hacker world, uh, to some people anyway, uh, who had been working with the Secret Service for over a year and a half, uh,
[12:49.730 --> 12:52.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: to try and get people to commit crimes and things like that.
[12:52.660 --> 13:06.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, what's particularly disturbing about this is that at the hacker conference known as SummerCon, which took place in Atlanta, this person was filming a quote-unquote hacker documentary.
[13:06.940 --> 13:14.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so all the hackers, all the people that, uh, wanted to, uh, to be free and open and tell their story, they put their faces on camera and you know what?
[13:14.730 --> 13:16.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: The whole thing was a Secret Service operation.
[13:17.350 --> 13:29.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right, the Secret Service went down to a hacker conference and filmed everybody and had people willingly come up to them and tell them who they were and what kinds of things they did and what their secrets were and things like that because, hey,
[13:29.900 --> 13:31.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: we thought it was an independent filmmaker.
[13:32.560 --> 13:41.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's the kind of tactics we're dealing with here, uh, where people are constantly trying to, uh, get us to slip up and, and break the law and become criminals and things like that.
[13:41.620 --> 13:47.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, a, a, a lot of people just, uh, are, are resisting that kind of, uh, that kind of push.
[13:47.970 --> 13:50.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't, uh, believe we're doing anything in the criminal nature.
[13:50.560 --> 13:58.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: We believe we're exploring technology and, and playing with tools and figuring things out and, and just, uh, basically being curious explorers.
[13:58.850 --> 14:01.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know that worries a lot of people, but hey, that's just too bad.
[14:01.920 --> 14:02.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not going to stop.
[14:02.560 --> 14:07.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: It can lock up a hundred people, but it's not going to, uh, not going to, uh, uh, quell curiosity.
[14:07.970 --> 14:10.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not in those people that, uh, that are really curious anyway.
[14:11.590 --> 14:14.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what we've been dealing with over the past, uh, couple of weeks.
[14:15.350 --> 14:17.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, we may have some more details coming in later on.
[14:18.800 --> 14:20.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so enough about that.
[14:20.940 --> 14:25.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, so we have the, uh, the program moving times in two weeks, Tuesday, 8 p.m.
[14:25.060 --> 14:30.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have, uh, uh, increased surveillance and people pleading guilty and, and, and being, uh, sentenced.
[14:30.420 --> 14:32.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, Bernie S is being sentenced tomorrow.
[14:32.660 --> 14:45.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: We will have the, uh, uh, the results of that posted on the Internet site, uh, which by fingering Bernie S at 2600.com, you will get the, uh, the information, or by mailing to him, you will get it sent back to you as well.
[14:46.730 --> 14:49.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, as soon as we learn something, we will put it up on the site.
[14:50.200 --> 14:52.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's, uh, that's really the best we can do.
[14:52.710 --> 15:02.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hopefully there won't be a need anymore to write to Bernie S because hopefully he won't be in prison after tomorrow, but, uh, the finger of the site and, and, and we'll see if he still is after tomorrow.
[15:02.400 --> 15:07.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: In any event, we still have one other hacker that, uh, at least one other hacker, uh, who is in prison that needs support.
[15:07.900 --> 15:09.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that is Kevin Mitnick.
[15:09.210 --> 15:16.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can write to him by emailing to Kevin Mitnick, actually K Mitnick, K-M-I-T-N-I-C-K at 2600.com.
[15:17.320 --> 15:20.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And remember 2600 is numerically spelled 2600.
[15:22.440 --> 15:36.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now then concerning, we, we're going to have a few packages tonight, but, uh, the, the basic package right now, okay, the, the, the basic package, the one we're going to start off with, for those of you that, that care about the program, want to support it.
[15:36.460 --> 15:40.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I know there's a lot of people out there, because, uh, I, I hear from you all the time.
[15:40.620 --> 15:42.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is the time that we need your help.
[15:42.470 --> 15:53.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Whatever you can afford to pledge obviously makes a difference, but if you pledge, uh, I believe the amount is $75, you'll get a brand new, and I don't mean, I don't mean the old t-shirts that we've, we had before.
[15:54.000 --> 16:00.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean the brand new ones, uh, with the Michelangelo virus, all of it on the front of a t-shirt.
[16:00.470 --> 16:02.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Imagine having a computer virus on your t-shirt.
[16:03.200 --> 16:05.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that'll cause some, uh, some controversy for sure.
[16:06.020 --> 16:18.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, for a $75 pledge, you'll get one of those, as well as a bunch of, uh, current newspaper clippings on the back with all kinds of, uh, of hacker news and, and hacker folklore and things like that.
[16:19.160 --> 16:24.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll get that in addition to the WBAI folio, which tells you what's on the radio at any time.
[16:25.440 --> 16:31.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, um, you'll also get the knowledge of knowing that you're helping out this, uh, this radio program and this radio station.
[16:31.280 --> 16:34.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[16:34.260 --> 16:37.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, again, that's our, that's our first offer here tonight.
[16:37.660 --> 16:40.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: We, we're going to have several different packages, but, uh, that's, that's the first one.
[16:41.620 --> 16:46.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, it's a, a kind of exclusive thing right now because virtually nobody has these ones.
[16:46.960 --> 16:50.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nobody has the Michelangelo virus on the, on the, on the t-shirt yet.
[16:51.080 --> 16:53.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, so give us a call.
[16:53.420 --> 16:55.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[16:55.420 --> 17:02.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Show your support for free radio and for free ideas and for curiosity and things like that.
[17:03.260 --> 17:11.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, the next thing we're going to be doing is, um, dealing a little bit with the film Hackers, which just came out over the weekend.
[17:11.970 --> 17:14.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, that actually came out last Friday.
[17:15.280 --> 17:17.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm sure a lot of people out there have seen it.
[17:17.380 --> 17:23.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, hopefully, uh, if, if we're on at 11 o'clock, we'll start taking some phone calls then as far as, uh, what people's reactions are.
[17:23.730 --> 17:42.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, but, um, if you're, if you really want some historical perspective here, what we're going to be doing tonight is, uh, playing excerpts from the Hope Conference last year, where we had the author of Hackers, we had the director of Hackers, we also had the producer of Hackers all on one panel,
[17:42.260 --> 17:59.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh, as well as, uh, as three other people, um, Paul Tuff from, uh, Harper's Magazine, as well as, uh, Wynn Schwartow, uh, who is, uh, an author and has written some things that, uh, have gotten attention in the hacker world, and Julian DeBell from the Village Voice,
[17:59.680 --> 18:02.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: who has written many articles about Hackers as well.
[18:02.840 --> 18:08.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: All of that, um, we'll be excerpting tonight, but, uh, that's also available to you.
[18:08.960 --> 18:10.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is our second deal here, okay?
[18:10.940 --> 18:12.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I told you there's gonna be more than one.
[18:12.230 --> 18:31.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Our second deal for a pledge of $150, this is our special hacker package, where you get not only the brand new hacker t-shirt with the Michelangelo virus scrawled down the front, which, if you're really kind of cautious, you can wear a shirt over it, so people don't see that.
[18:32.140 --> 18:39.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, in addition to that, you'll get the entire video of this Hackers, uh, authors panel.
[18:39.750 --> 18:44.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Authors, I don't know what you would call it really, authors about hacking, or hacker authors.
[18:44.490 --> 18:57.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're not hackers, they're people that write about hacking, they're people that put out films, they're people that put out newspaper articles and magazine articles and things like that, and they talk on the video for, uh, I guess about an hour and a half or so,
[18:57.560 --> 19:07.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: about what hacking is to them, what they see, what they, what advice they would give to hackers to get their word out, uh, to get a positive feeling.
[19:08.510 --> 19:21.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you'll hear excerpts of that tonight, but if you want the whole thing, including questions and answers, some pretty bizarre questions and answers, as well as, of course, the video, which you don't see on the radio, then, uh, that will be part of that package for $150.
[19:21.560 --> 19:22.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's not all.
[19:22.290 --> 19:23.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wait, don't go to your phones yet.
[19:23.860 --> 19:24.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have the t-shirt.
[19:25.120 --> 19:25.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have the video.
[19:26.180 --> 19:31.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, in addition to that, we have a full one-year subscription of 2600 Magazine, The Hacker Quarterly.
[19:31.490 --> 19:32.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[19:32.380 --> 19:43.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: The magazine that, uh, dares to be different, I guess, and that gets into so much trouble over the past, uh, past 11 years or so that, uh, it's, it's, we were in USA Today last week.
[19:43.580 --> 19:44.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, that was kind of weird.
[19:44.880 --> 19:47.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Never thought it, uh, I'd see 2600 there.
[19:47.940 --> 19:49.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, it has gotten a lot of attention.
[19:49.790 --> 19:57.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can have it, uh, sent to your home or your PO box or wherever it is that you want it sent to, uh, in a plain brown envelope, by the way.
[19:57.490 --> 20:00.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know people are concerned about that, uh, for a period of one year.
[20:01.080 --> 20:02.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's, uh, four quarterly issues.
[20:03.340 --> 20:09.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you'll be the first on your blog to get, uh, to get all kinds of, uh, juicy information as it happens.
[20:09.580 --> 20:14.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And also the latest on various hacker developments going on throughout the, uh, the planet.
[20:14.560 --> 20:17.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there are quite a few things happening around the world.
[20:17.620 --> 20:34.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, for a pledge of 150, you'll get not only the, uh, 2600 t-shirt, the brand new 2600 t-shirt with the Michelangelo virus, uh, you'll get a full year subscription of 2600 magazine and the video of the author's panel at the Hackers on Planet Earth conference last year,
[20:35.160 --> 20:37.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: which we're going to be excerpting starting in a couple of minutes.
[20:38.010 --> 20:40.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, the number is 212-279-3400.
[20:40.290 --> 20:44.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I should also point out, though, that, um, any pledge will help.
[20:45.380 --> 20:49.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, these, these are things that we offer you because we want to donate something to the station as well.
[20:49.700 --> 20:55.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, so we're, we're sort of taking this out of our own pockets here and, and, and giving it to the station to, to give to you.
[20:55.620 --> 21:04.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if you just want to be generous and donate something, say $25 or, or $50 or whatever it is that you can afford, um, please call anyway.
[21:04.710 --> 21:07.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 because every little bit helps.
[21:07.990 --> 21:12.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: And every little bit will, uh, will get us to the stage where it makes a difference.
[21:13.230 --> 21:14.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: So let's get those phone lines lit.
[21:14.790 --> 21:16.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[21:16.510 --> 21:23.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to start the, um, the author's panel of the Hackers on Planet Earth Conference.
[21:23.360 --> 21:29.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, we'll be starting, I think there's an introduction, and then we'll be, uh, hearing from Julian DeBell of The Village Voice.
[21:29.900 --> 21:40.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, that will be followed by Paul Tuff of Harper's and, um, Wynn Schwartow, who, uh, put out a book called, uh, Information Warfare and Terminal Compromise.
[21:40.160 --> 21:43.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then we'll be getting to the, uh, to the Hackers film people.
[21:43.360 --> 21:47.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, we'll be hearing all that in just, uh, uh, I guess right now.
[21:47.490 --> 21:49.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[21:49.270 --> 21:50.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please give us a call.
[21:52.440 --> 21:57.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, by the way, this is coming to you over MidiDisc, which, uh, is a fairly new technology.
[21:57.380 --> 21:59.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is the, uh, author of the seminar.
[22:00.200 --> 22:08.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: People who have written or are writing about hackers in various, uh, various matters for hacking and technology and various things like that.
[22:09.100 --> 22:15.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, program update, uh, the Cellular Conference is in jeopardy right now.
[22:15.280 --> 22:18.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: It seems that a, uh, a hard drive is missing that has the vital program on it.
[22:18.960 --> 22:21.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, anybody, uh, knows anything about that?
[22:21.760 --> 22:26.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please, uh, get an Hacker Burnie-esque and clearing it there out of your room right now.
[22:26.780 --> 22:30.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, looks like we have the band taken care of.
[22:30.520 --> 22:37.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're gonna get the thing started and cruise around the city and, uh, show people what a hacker band looks like.
[22:38.540 --> 22:42.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, it's raining really hard in Woodstock, what I hear.
[22:51.310 --> 22:52.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's also raining pretty hard here.
[22:56.630 --> 23:11.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, we have with us today from, well, from my left to right, your right to left in the gas, um, Julian DeValle, author, renowned author for Royce, Bill's Royce, uh, Stinn Magazine, and I'm sure there are many other things in the future.
[23:11.830 --> 23:15.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, Paul Tuff, who was grateful for Harper's Esquire.
[23:16.130 --> 23:20.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, Rich Wartell, author of Terminal Compromise, and what's that one?
[23:21.370 --> 23:21.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Paul Tuff?
[23:22.310 --> 23:27.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: I do not do cheap brass commercial belongs by information.
[23:28.850 --> 23:31.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we have, uh, Raphael, Paul Tuff?
[23:31.430 --> 23:31.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Paul Tuff?
[23:32.750 --> 23:33.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's correct.
[23:34.090 --> 23:34.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[23:34.610 --> 23:40.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: He is the writer of a brand new film, which is being filmed in New York City this summer.
[23:41.490 --> 23:44.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, it's called Hackers, and guess what it's about?
[23:46.030 --> 23:59.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, uh, it's going to, uh, it's going to be quite an interesting, uh, interesting experience, and this is a good opportunity for some of you to give feedback to the people making this film before they actually make it.
[24:00.130 --> 24:02.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I also think I'm going to hear from you guys for various things.
[24:03.270 --> 24:12.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we also have Michael Iser, producer of that film, and, uh, if I'm not mistaken, you're also executive producer of Desperately Seeking Susan.
[24:12.930 --> 24:19.270]  [SPEAKER_27]: Yeah, we filmed, we filmed on the 17th floor, the first scenes of that movie, we shot in this hotel.
[24:19.490 --> 24:20.690]  [SPEAKER_27]: The last time I was here.
[24:20.830 --> 24:21.510]  [SPEAKER_27]: It's a horror film.
[24:26.290 --> 24:31.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: And speeding by Kev, on his way over here right now, is Ian Softley, who is the director of this film.
[24:31.890 --> 24:36.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: You may know, uh, Ian Softley as the director, writing, and producer of Backbeat.
[24:36.710 --> 24:40.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, he will be here fairly soon, I guess.
[24:40.330 --> 24:47.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, basically, uh, what we're going to be doing here is, um, talking about the experience of writing about hackers.
[24:48.130 --> 24:53.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, we'll start with Julian, who has written in the past articles about various New York City-based hackers.
[24:54.130 --> 24:58.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then we'll move on to everybody else, uh, who has touched upon the subject in various ways.
[24:58.890 --> 25:03.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Basically, what are the, what are the challenges dealing with people like us?
[25:03.870 --> 25:05.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are we easy to talk to?
[25:05.930 --> 25:08.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are we hard to put into words?
[25:08.670 --> 25:15.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: What kind of adventures and things have, uh, you guys been through putting, putting, uh, our antics to paper?
[25:16.430 --> 25:21.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, of course, we hope you have the floors and any questions that the people out there will have for these people.
[25:21.970 --> 25:23.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, take it away, Julian.
[25:25.530 --> 25:35.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, Eric sent, uh, sent all of us, uh, a list of questions we might want to be dealing with, uh, here and, uh, over the net a few days ago.
[25:36.730 --> 25:39.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and he was, so I'll just read in here.
[25:40.210 --> 25:46.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're supposed to be, uh, what we're going to be talking about is, A, how writers such as yourself perceive hackers.
[25:46.590 --> 25:47.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: What is unique about them?
[25:48.450 --> 25:51.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, C, what makes writing about them especially challenging?
[25:51.530 --> 25:58.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: And also, how do you respond to those critics who claim that writers are just cashing in on hackers and stuff like that?
[25:59.450 --> 26:02.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I'll start with the last question first.
[26:03.030 --> 26:14.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, uh, just to point out that, uh, anybody here thinks that, uh, uh, that we're getting rich writing on the backwards and smoking some of our fine crack here in that big city.
[26:15.030 --> 26:25.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's, uh, you know, cashing in is what you do when you write about, uh, you know, John and Woodstock.
[26:26.870 --> 26:37.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, uh, anyway, um, the question about, uh, what is challenging about writing about hackers and, uh, let me be specific.
[26:37.970 --> 26:43.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: What I've written about, um, in terms of hackers is not so much technological stuff.
[26:43.170 --> 26:50.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: But what's interested me about hackers and freakers is, um, is hacking and freaking as a subculture.
[26:50.530 --> 26:51.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's where I came from.
[26:51.470 --> 27:15.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: I started out writing, uh, about, I started out writing music criticism and, and, and I became increasingly disinterested with that and, and convinced that what was really exciting, um, in terms of subcultural activity in my generation was, was, uh, cultures that were being created around technology and specifically around hacking and freaking.
[27:17.010 --> 27:20.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and, uh,
[27:24.680 --> 27:49.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: so, but once I got to know the culture a little better, um, the, the real, the problematic that I dealt with in writing about hackers was walking that fine line between making a case for the right to, uh, for the right of this subculture to exist and presenting the subculture as it really is.
[27:49.700 --> 28:05.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, now, you know, I would like to, uh, you know, you all know that, that hackers are, are all, uh, love their mothers and are wonderful people and, uh, you know.
[28:05.880 --> 28:10.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but, uh, that's not really the case.
[28:10.700 --> 28:21.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, hackers are, are human beings like everybody else, but the problem is writing about them takes place within a general atmosphere of total, you know, misunderstanding and fear and terror.
[28:22.340 --> 28:37.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, um, so, to write the subculture as it really is, um, is problematic because you'll just be feeding into these prejudices against them and you won't really make the case for this subculture to exist.
[28:37.860 --> 28:53.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I believe that this subculture has a right to exist and needs to exist because I'm interested in, in, in, in, for one thing, some of the political implications of, of, of the subculture, the, the desire to break through corporate barriers and, and through,
[28:53.440 --> 29:07.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: uh, information hierarchies and, you know, and, and, uh, sort of, uh, loosen up the controls on information that are being implemented in this increasingly information-based society and economy.
[29:07.340 --> 29:19.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, hackers aren't generally as interested in these political questions as some of us journalists are, as, uh, and some of you are here tonight.
[29:19.740 --> 29:28.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but, you know, nonetheless, for those reasons, I think it's important for this subculture to exist.
[29:28.660 --> 29:35.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, what I do is a kind of advocacy journalism, uh, for, for the hacker subculture.
[29:35.620 --> 29:50.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: I try to present it, you know, as accurately as possible, but when it comes down to it, I'm making a choice to be hacker sympathetic, or not, not necessarily pro-hacker, but at least to present them in the best light that I can.
[29:51.540 --> 30:03.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I make this point just because I hear a lot, you know, there's a lot of suspicion of the media in the, in the Hack Creek community, and, uh, rightfully so.
[30:03.760 --> 30:10.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but there is a kind of attitude that, like, you know, why don't they just present us the way we are, man?
[30:11.480 --> 30:16.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and, and it's not, you know, it's difficult.
[30:16.460 --> 30:29.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if we present you warts and all, you know, you, and just do a straight presentation, people are gonna, people are out there with all these prejudices against hacking and freaks, and they're just gonna read into that what their prejudices are already.
[30:29.980 --> 30:31.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, we have to make a case for that.
[30:32.140 --> 30:48.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, and, and that also puts a burden on, on you all to also make the case for yourself, and not just sit there and, and just, just spew out information to, on the one hand, just spew out information to any, you know, media rep that comes along, or on the other hand,
[30:48.560 --> 30:50.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: totally not talk to any media rep that comes along.
[30:51.040 --> 30:54.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a kind of dichotomy, We were just talking about this now.
[30:55.400 --> 31:15.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: On the one hand, there's this real dogmatic, oh, the media are all liars and scumbags, and on the other hand, there's the case of hackers who will just spew out all kinds of incriminating information to reporters they've never talked to, they've never seen before,
[31:15.820 --> 31:29.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: they don't even necessarily know that they're really reporters, and they'll just spew for hours, you know, well, I did this and this and that and that, and you know, you have to develop a more savvy attitude towards dealing with the press, not just on the one hand,
[31:30.160 --> 31:46.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: that they're all creeps and trying to cash in, ha ha ha, or on the other hand, that, you know, you can just present the information, and once the information gets out there, then everybody will know what a wonderful thing hacking and freaking is, and how wonderful all you people are,
[31:46.700 --> 31:50.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: and, you know, your right to exist will be guaranteed for life.
[31:53.940 --> 32:01.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: You've got to develop a kind of savvy, and you've got to develop a kind of political attitude about it, making, you know, making a case for yourselves.
[32:02.560 --> 32:08.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to go on too long, well, I'll pass the mic, and, you know, and then we'll have questions afterwards.
[32:09.780 --> 32:14.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, that was Julian DeBell speaking at the Hope Conference last August, a year ago last August.
[32:15.380 --> 32:23.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Next, we'll be hearing from Paul Tuff of Harper's Magazine, but we just wanted to butt in here for a second to update you on the premiums.
[32:24.000 --> 32:28.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've added something to the first premium that we were giving away.
[32:28.640 --> 32:38.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, if you already called for that, it's automatically added for you, and that is a subscription to the magazine as well as a 2600 T-shirt with the Michelangelo virus.
[32:38.260 --> 32:41.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's two things for a pledge of $75.
[32:41.360 --> 32:44.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
[32:44.840 --> 32:53.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, for $75, you'll get the Hacker Magazine for a full year and a brand-new T-shirt with the Michelangelo virus on it.
[32:53.160 --> 33:06.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: And for $150, you will get both the subscription, the T-shirt, and the videotape of the Hacker Conference dealing with hacker authors and how hackers are portrayed in the media.
[33:06.480 --> 33:10.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now let's hear from Paul Tuff of the Magazine Harper's.
[33:13.340 --> 33:14.960]  [SPEAKER_24]: Can you guys hear me?
[33:15.360 --> 33:15.460]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yeah.
[33:15.800 --> 33:15.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: Good.
[33:17.420 --> 33:25.060]  [SPEAKER_24]: I, despite Emmanuel's helpful questions, I'm not sure exactly what kind of questions you guys want me to answer.
[33:25.060 --> 33:35.320]  [SPEAKER_24]: So, I just want to tell you a bit about what my experiences were reporting on and with hackers and then give you more time to ask me questions if you've got me.
[33:36.860 --> 33:37.580]  I first...
[33:37.580 --> 33:41.720]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, one thing that's different between me and some other hacker journalists is that I'm sort of retired.
[33:41.840 --> 33:44.360]  [SPEAKER_24]: I haven't really done much in the last three or four years.
[33:45.420 --> 33:48.020]  [SPEAKER_24]: Partly that's because, you know, I'm not really a computer reporter.
[33:49.260 --> 33:54.580]  [SPEAKER_24]: Sort of like Julian, I look at myself when I am a reporter much more as a reporter on cultures, on groups.
[33:55.060 --> 34:11.900]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, and the way I first became interested in, um, in hackers was in 1989 when I picked up, about the same time, picked up an issue of 2600 and, uh, got signed on to the well and started exploring both of those worlds a bit.
[34:12.160 --> 34:21.660]  [SPEAKER_24]: The first thing that I did was, I'm an editor at Harper's Magazine, and we did a forum, um, in, I think it was February 1990, in which we got...
[34:22.700 --> 34:30.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: Largely with Emmanuel's help, we got a lot of, um, people on the well and hackers here in New York together to discuss what we...
[34:30.620 --> 34:33.260]  [SPEAKER_24]: The headline we gave it was, is computer hacking a crime?
[34:33.400 --> 34:47.660]  [SPEAKER_24]: And it was a 10-day forum online in which another editor and I sort of tried to direct the, the discussion, tried to ask questions, tried to see if there was such a thing as a hacker manifesto, tried to see where different people drew the line between legal and illegal.
[34:47.660 --> 35:04.720]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, this, this, uh, this forum was mostly famous for a run in between, um, two people who would go on to be even bigger figures in the hacker world, fiber optic and John Perry Barlow, who, um, sort of had a generational, uh, war going on.
[35:04.720 --> 35:22.580]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, and it led to Barlow claiming that optic was basically no different from a, uh, a skateboarder, and immediately after that optic, um, grabbed his credit rating from TRW and downloaded it into the forum, thus proving that there was a bit of a difference between him and a skateboarder.
[35:22.580 --> 35:31.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, so, I mean, in, in, in, that, that sort of answered, answered, I mean, that, that, that was a very different way to, um, present hackers.
[35:32.240 --> 35:39.960]  [SPEAKER_24]: And, um, it's a way that I think worked just because we let hackers talk in their own words.
[35:40.100 --> 35:49.600]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, we, we interfered very, we interfered as little as possible as we could in the conversation that most of the words that ended up in that article were the participants and not ours.
[35:49.600 --> 35:56.020]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, so in that way, it was easy to put you guys into words because we just let you use your own words.
[35:56.240 --> 36:10.460]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, but from that, I met a couple of, um, teenage computer hackers and, uh, started hanging out with them and, and, and trying to figure out more about what led someone at a young age to want to hack.
[36:10.680 --> 36:16.320]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, and started writing this article for Esquire magazine with, um, a friend of mine, Jack Hitt.
[36:16.820 --> 36:28.040]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, and basically what we did was sort of apprentice ourselves to these two guys and got them to teach us everything that, that we could possibly understand about hacking.
[36:28.700 --> 36:41.300]  [SPEAKER_24]: Uh, that, the main barrier there was that they, uh, were miles ahead of us and, and most of the time we just were trying to get them to slow down enough that we could, we could keep track of what they were saying.
[36:41.300 --> 36:45.680]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, but, we hung out with them for a really long time.
[36:45.900 --> 36:47.140]  [SPEAKER_24]: We hung out with them for like three months.
[36:47.380 --> 36:50.000]  [SPEAKER_24]: And, uh, most of the time we were hacking when we were with them.
[36:50.180 --> 36:51.980]  [SPEAKER_24]: They were getting into various systems.
[36:52.260 --> 36:54.400]  [SPEAKER_24]: They were especially interested in the phone system in 9x.
[36:54.760 --> 36:58.000]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, and they would sort of explain to us what they were doing and why they were doing it.
[36:58.480 --> 37:02.280]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, and over the course of that period, we sort of learned...
[37:02.880 --> 37:06.700]  [SPEAKER_24]: We, we came to some conclusions about why, why they were doing things.
[37:06.700 --> 37:14.740]  [SPEAKER_24]: Some conclusions that they sort of hadn't come to themselves, and were able maybe to psychoanalyze them a bit in ways that they hadn't done.
[37:17.680 --> 37:20.580]  [SPEAKER_24]: And that's about it for me and hackers.
[37:20.840 --> 37:23.160]  [SPEAKER_24]: Those are my main two contributions to the debate.
[37:23.580 --> 37:29.300]  [SPEAKER_24]: The only thing that I would add is basically to say what Julian said.
[37:31.700 --> 37:35.420]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'm here with a national public radio reporter, and we were talking to a few people yesterday.
[37:36.020 --> 37:48.800]  [SPEAKER_24]: And the thing that still strikes me, you know, watching people, there were a couple of photographers, I guess newspaper photographers and WINS reporters and people like that going around and interviewing people and taking pictures, and there really seemed to be a,
[37:49.320 --> 38:04.240]  [SPEAKER_24]: you know, despite the fact, as Julian said, that there's this kind of anti-media rhetoric among a lot of hackers, there was a real feeling of, like, when the photographers showed up, people just kind of smiled and rolled over and hoped that their bellies would get scratched by the media.
[38:05.420 --> 38:11.060]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I think there's a real distinction between different types of reporters.
[38:11.600 --> 38:23.440]  [SPEAKER_24]: There are people that are going to really listen to what people have to say and really try and understand the technology and try and understand the sociology, and are going to write articles that help things rather than hurt things.
[38:25.140 --> 38:33.040]  [SPEAKER_24]: A young, a 16-year-old guy here yesterday told me that he'd read my article and it got him more interested in hacking.
[38:33.540 --> 38:38.160]  [SPEAKER_24]: He got it in his high school library, and that's the best thing that anyone's ever said to me about my article.
[38:38.320 --> 38:40.240]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, that was sort of what I was hoping would happen.
[38:40.240 --> 39:01.040]  [SPEAKER_24]: So, good things can come from talking to journalists, but when you get the Geraldo show showing up and, you know, asking if you could break into Defense Department computers and launch ICBMs and things like that, you've got to figure out pretty early that there is no way that anything good is going to come with this interview.
[39:01.840 --> 39:06.540]  [SPEAKER_24]: You've got to, you know, you've got to learn how to distinguish and you've got to learn how to just say no.
[39:06.540 --> 39:08.180]  [SPEAKER_24]: You know, just say, no, I don't want to talk to you.
[39:08.360 --> 39:13.760]  [SPEAKER_24]: And it really seems like that's something that a lot of hackers have not developed the skill, that skill.
[39:14.380 --> 39:19.420]  [SPEAKER_24]: That they, they're just going to participate in anything that is going to get their name or photo in the media.
[39:20.100 --> 39:25.500]  [SPEAKER_24]: And that can be, as some people have learned, that can be really dangerous.
[39:31.930 --> 39:39.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Unlike my esteemed colleagues on my left, you're right, my left, I don't consider myself to be a journalist, per se.
[39:40.050 --> 39:59.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: I consider myself to be a writer, a commentator, editorial, big mouth, hopefully somewhat entertaining with what I do to cross over some barriers, barriers being the suits, being phone companies, being the Pentagon, down to whatever social subcultures happen to exist,
[39:59.330 --> 40:07.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: and try to make some sort of transitions or or provide some material for people to be able to understand what's going on the other side.
[40:07.310 --> 40:09.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's an awful lot of misunderstandings that are certainly going on.
[40:10.390 --> 40:16.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think also in this field, what we also see is a great deal of boring, boring writing going on.
[40:16.830 --> 40:17.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: And entertaining.
[40:17.850 --> 40:18.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: We need some fun.
[40:18.790 --> 40:22.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you guys provide an awful lot of fodder for that, as far as I'm concerned.
[40:23.070 --> 40:27.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you've read the latest piece I did on CyberChrist, then you'll have some idea of what we're doing.
[40:27.770 --> 40:33.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And on this particular one, we're going to do a review of this conference called CyberChrist Gets Nailed to the Cross.
[40:34.310 --> 40:37.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, hopefully it'll be as entertaining as some of the others have been.
[40:37.190 --> 40:39.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you guys are not the bad guys.
[40:39.570 --> 40:41.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: The media sometimes doesn't quite get that.
[40:41.490 --> 40:43.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly, corporate America doesn't entirely get that.
[40:43.550 --> 40:46.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: They do tend to peg you as the bad guys.
[40:46.870 --> 40:52.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that contributes certainly to some of the feelings and the anti-media rhetoric that we hear going on.
[40:54.550 --> 41:03.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Probably the closest example that I saw to some of the hackers not understanding exactly what to do occurred with fiber optic a couple of days after he got busted on the latest round.
[41:04.670 --> 41:07.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted to talk to him, so I called him up at home.
[41:08.510 --> 41:10.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, this is Wynne Schwartz, I want to chat with you.
[41:10.570 --> 41:12.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: He goes, how'd you get my phone number?
[41:13.450 --> 41:14.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, from information.
[41:16.590 --> 41:18.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he was a little stunned at that.
[41:18.110 --> 41:19.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: So we chatted for a couple of minutes.
[41:19.790 --> 41:22.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, you know, my lawyer says I can't talk to you.
[41:23.130 --> 41:24.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, no, I understand.
[41:24.250 --> 41:28.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, with the case going down, you're not supposed to get yourself in any more trouble.
[41:28.230 --> 41:28.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: He goes, yeah.
[41:28.810 --> 41:31.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, but before we go, let me just ask you one question.
[41:31.750 --> 41:32.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he goes, what?
[41:32.270 --> 41:34.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, why did you do it?
[41:35.410 --> 41:39.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Four hours of on-the-record conversation that thoroughly indicted him.
[41:39.210 --> 41:47.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: He did not understand, and a lot of this culture does not understand, that when people go on the record, they're on the record.
[41:48.070 --> 41:50.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't understand what off the record is.
[41:50.110 --> 41:54.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't understand often what background is, how to use things anonymously.
[41:54.690 --> 42:08.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like when you read the New York Times, you see things, according to a source who doesn't want to be identified because he'd lose his job at the White House, the same kind of thing, you have the same privileges and rules, and quality journalists, quality writers will adhere to those types of rules,
[42:08.170 --> 42:11.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: regardless of what side of the fence you may or may not be on.
[42:11.930 --> 42:21.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the better writers will keep confidential your secrets, and they'll keep confidential the secrets of the Pentagon and all the other suit-level people as well.
[42:21.890 --> 42:26.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the rules are the same for everybody, but you've got to become aware of what all the rules really are.
[42:28.830 --> 42:46.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: And with the issue about hacking, somehow there's this impression that hacking is new, that it's something that's come out in the last four years or ten years or what have you, but I don't know who created that image, but technology has been around for a long time.
[42:46.890 --> 42:51.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: And people have always tried to stretch technology and push the edge of it.
[42:51.510 --> 42:57.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: The difference that we have today versus the other types of hacking in prior technological societies is the connectivity.
[42:58.050 --> 42:59.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's really the only difference.
[42:59.310 --> 43:05.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when you have the kind of connectivity we have today, the presence, the awareness, is the main difference.
[43:05.710 --> 43:10.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: People have always pushed the edge, and when they're pushing the edge, they're generally doing it for social good.
[43:10.650 --> 43:14.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this has not been something that the media, in my opinion, has really gotten right.
[43:15.130 --> 43:21.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because the majority of the media, when I read the stories on you guys and the various factions of the security industry, they get it wrong.
[43:22.130 --> 43:25.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: The journalists do not have the technological basis, generally.
[43:25.670 --> 43:27.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: No offense to the gentleman on my left here.
[43:27.210 --> 43:32.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: They generally do not have the technological basis to understand when somebody's bullshitting or not.
[43:32.310 --> 43:33.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it possible?
[43:33.090 --> 43:34.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it not possible?
[43:34.270 --> 43:37.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll give you the most classic example, and then I'll pass the mic on.
[43:43.730 --> 43:47.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Ted Koppel was hosting Nightline, and I was sitting there with my wife.
[43:47.970 --> 43:49.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: I have a life and kids and all that.
[43:49.510 --> 43:50.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: We were sitting at home at 11.30.
[43:51.610 --> 44:00.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he came on to announce that the United States had won the war against Iraq using a computer virus.
[44:01.890 --> 44:05.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I looked at my wife and I said, there's something wrong with this picture.
[44:05.990 --> 44:08.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they proceeded to describe how it worked.
[44:08.750 --> 44:20.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what it was, the National Security Agency, in its infinite wisdom, designed a computer virus to go inside of a chip, which they then gave to the CIA.
[44:20.470 --> 44:26.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the CIA now has this little computer chip designed to take down Iraq.
[44:26.590 --> 44:31.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: They fly over to France, and they find a French printer company, and they say, oh, this fits into that.
[44:31.770 --> 44:34.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they put this chip with the virus into a French printer.
[44:36.090 --> 44:40.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: The French printer is apparently bound for Iraq one way or another.
[44:42.010 --> 44:45.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is, again, this is Nightline telling this story with U.S.
[44:45.430 --> 44:48.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: News & World Report providing all of the accurate information.
[44:50.410 --> 44:53.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they got the printer to Amman, Jordan.
[44:54.610 --> 44:58.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: And since there was an embargo, they only wanted to let the printers with the viruses through.
[44:59.790 --> 45:06.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they somehow got this printer into an Iraqi air defense installation down near Kuwait.
[45:06.970 --> 45:18.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, a couple of minutes before we decide to send in the cruise missiles to make right turns at the El Rashid Hotel, we decide it's time to launch the virus.
[45:19.230 --> 45:37.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, a couple of minutes before we say go, the virus, this is Nightline, not me now, jumps out of the printer into the air defense radar systems which are running Windows 3.0
[45:44.820 --> 45:48.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: and subsequently ate up all of their air defense capabilities.
[45:51.060 --> 45:53.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I was bothered by this story.
[45:56.180 --> 46:00.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said to my wife, go to bed, I got some homework to do.
[46:00.250 --> 46:04.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I went through some files that something really just gnawed at the back of my mind.
[46:05.300 --> 46:10.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: And subsequently I wrote an article called The Iraqi Virus Hoax.
[46:12.000 --> 46:28.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: This story, word for word, point for point, issue for issue, there's 14 of them fully documented and I put it all over the net, was written originally by John Gantz, an InfoWorld columnist on April 1st, 1991.
[46:30.180 --> 46:35.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was an April Fool's joke upon who becomes the question.
[46:35.940 --> 46:41.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I called up the following Monday morning after talking to Coppel's people who disavowed any knowledge of it.
[46:42.310 --> 46:43.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's why they were reporting it.
[46:44.700 --> 46:48.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I talked to the author, Brian Duffy, at U.S.
[46:48.730 --> 46:51.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: News and World Report and I said, Brian, this thing is a crock.
[46:51.640 --> 46:52.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: What happened?
[46:52.380 --> 46:53.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: What's wrong here?
[46:54.010 --> 46:59.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: And apparently I sent them to something of a panic and he called me back two days later and he says, we're sticking by the story.
[47:00.080 --> 47:00.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's accurate.
[47:02.420 --> 47:05.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, where is your source?
[47:05.400 --> 47:08.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: He goes, to knowledgeable generals.
[47:10.920 --> 47:15.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, so much for knowledgeable generals, so much for knowledgeable media.
[47:15.200 --> 47:18.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Point is, be careful who you're talking to, the gentleman on the left or right.
[47:18.200 --> 47:19.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Be aware of the rules.
[47:19.380 --> 47:26.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Be aware of your rights that good journalists will give you and then you can start talking about getting some stories and your viewpoints put across right.
[47:26.360 --> 47:26.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
[47:33.380 --> 47:53.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: We are listening to selections from the panel at the Hackers on Planet Earth conference last year where we had some journalists, some authors, and some movie makers all sitting at the same table and giving advice to hackers and answering questions from hackers as far as portrayal in the mass media.
[47:54.560 --> 47:59.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: We are doing a fundraiser here at Off the Hook on WBAI and we need your support.
[47:59.580 --> 48:14.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you'd like a copy of the entire videotape having to do with this particular panel that runs about 90 minutes then we've got a deal for you where if you give us a call at 212-279-3400 and pledge $150 you'll get that.
[48:14.980 --> 48:22.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll get a subscription to 2600 Magazine the Hacker Quarterly and you'll get a brand new 2600 Hacker t-shirt with the Michelangelo virus.
[48:23.400 --> 48:34.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, we're not getting very many phone calls here and I think it might be possibly because we're on a different time but we need to really get some more calls coming in quickly.
[48:34.460 --> 48:43.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 The phone lines are quiet very quiet inside and we need to get the people in there a little bit more excited than they are right now.
[48:43.980 --> 48:45.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wake them up a bit if you will.
[48:45.960 --> 48:58.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: We also have a couple of other deals where for $75 you can get the 2600 Hacker t-shirt and a subscription to the magazine and that's for a $75 pledge.
[48:58.640 --> 49:11.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: So you have $75, you have $150 and of course anything you pledge will be helpful for any pledge that you phone in you'll get the WBAI folio which tells you all the different programs that we have throughout the course of the weeks and months.
[49:11.980 --> 49:23.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 if freedom of speech means something to you then I think it makes sense to be tied into this entire system that we've got here.
[49:23.980 --> 49:25.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is a unique radio station.
[49:25.800 --> 49:28.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you're just stumbling upon us for the first time you might be realizing that.
[49:28.780 --> 49:30.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: There aren't very many places like this.
[49:31.320 --> 49:34.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not in New York, not on the FM dial anywhere.
[49:34.880 --> 49:40.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's only a few stations that will broadcast this kind of material anywhere in the country.
[49:41.000 --> 49:42.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's because that's the way radio is.
[49:42.980 --> 49:50.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Radio is kind of this marketing force that has been corrupted over the years by commercial entities.
[49:50.080 --> 49:53.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just like I guess anything is corrupted by commercial entities over time.
[49:54.060 --> 49:58.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're trying to preserve this here in New York and you may notice that we don't have commercials.
[49:58.840 --> 50:00.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is how it all works.
[50:00.260 --> 50:02.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Radio is paid for by commercials.
[50:02.760 --> 50:04.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Magazines are paid for by advertising.
[50:04.980 --> 50:13.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you don't have commercials, if you don't have advertising, then you need to rely on individual people to keep the project going.
[50:13.660 --> 50:15.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's why we need your help now.
[50:15.220 --> 50:17.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[50:17.220 --> 50:22.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have one call on the line, but we have capacity for I believe seven at the same time.
[50:22.240 --> 50:24.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: So let's light up those phone calls.
[50:24.460 --> 50:28.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Every person makes a difference here because you're our sponsors.
[50:28.640 --> 50:33.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're the ones that tell us if we're doing a good job or not, if it matters what we're saying.
[50:33.320 --> 50:41.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'd like to think that the messages we've been sending you, the news we've been reporting over the past several months, has meant something, has made a difference.
[50:41.760 --> 50:42.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: The news about Bernie S.
[50:42.980 --> 50:53.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: calling us live from prison every week, that I think has reached quite a few people and made them realize the dangers that we're facing in today's electronic society.
[50:53.860 --> 50:56.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: The dangers of people not understanding it.
[50:56.220 --> 51:08.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: People in control who do not understand are a great danger to us all because they'll pass legislation that doesn't make any sense and that can send innocent people to prison for long periods of time.
[51:08.520 --> 51:09.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've seen it happen time and time again.
[51:10.060 --> 51:12.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unfortunately, we probably will continue to see it happen.
[51:12.680 --> 51:19.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: But what's important here is that we have a voice to let you know what's going on, to let others know, to get people involved.
[51:19.780 --> 51:21.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: It does make a very big difference.
[51:21.900 --> 51:26.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: To give you an example of this, word got out that Bernie S.
[51:27.060 --> 51:44.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: was talking to us week after week here on WBAI and his legal people were contacted by the Secret Service and they wanted pressure to be put on us to stop it, to stop having him speak out because they thought it might incite people to violence or something.
[51:45.020 --> 51:46.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: It might have some horrible effect.
[51:46.680 --> 51:50.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're really, really worried about people speaking out.
[51:50.840 --> 51:52.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there's got to be a reason for that.
[51:52.880 --> 51:55.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's because freedom of speech is the most powerful tool there is.
[51:56.520 --> 51:58.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's why it's important for you to continue the process.
[51:59.280 --> 52:04.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 I want to thank the person just called in, but we have many open lines.
[52:04.540 --> 52:11.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 Remember, the most important thing is that you're investing in the radio station.
[52:11.280 --> 52:17.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're investing in our future and you're becoming a part of the whole community here by doing this.
[52:17.360 --> 52:27.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 If you want to pledge $75, we have the package of the Hacker t-shirt and the one-year subscription to the magazine.
[52:28.420 --> 52:35.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you pledge $150, which is very, very helpful to us, obviously, we'll thank you by sending you three different things.
[52:35.860 --> 52:39.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sending you the subscription, the t-shirt, and the videotape.
[52:40.040 --> 52:43.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 Every little bit makes a difference.
[52:44.620 --> 52:47.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we've got either one or two phone lines ringing.
[52:47.980 --> 52:50.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of hard to tell on here because half the lights are broken.
[52:50.640 --> 52:54.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you know those lights wouldn't be broken if we got some calls.
[52:54.180 --> 52:55.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: We can get money to fix things around here.
[52:57.340 --> 53:00.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I know that not all seven lights are lit.
[53:00.560 --> 53:01.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: That much I do know.
[53:01.720 --> 53:05.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And those lights are lit all the time when we ask for phone calls.
[53:06.240 --> 53:07.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Imagine if we were not here.
[53:07.660 --> 53:09.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Imagine if we weren't able to ask for phone calls.
[53:09.460 --> 53:11.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: You think we're just being paranoid?
[53:11.260 --> 53:12.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're not being paranoid.
[53:12.340 --> 53:14.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is what happens when you don't support a radio station.
[53:14.920 --> 53:16.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Things go out of business.
[53:16.680 --> 53:18.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Things fall into disrepair.
[53:18.280 --> 53:22.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, the public radio stations here in this city are falling apart.
[53:22.580 --> 53:24.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you've heard what Giuliani's doing.
[53:24.440 --> 53:25.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's selling WNYC.
[53:25.980 --> 53:29.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's selling it because they don't want to have to support it anymore.
[53:29.280 --> 53:34.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: They just want it to be supported by other people.
[53:34.220 --> 53:35.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: They don't want to deal with the hassle.
[53:35.920 --> 53:36.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: He would be happy.
[53:37.020 --> 53:40.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: He would be very happy selling it to a commercial interest and getting millions of dollars for it.
[53:40.540 --> 53:43.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And hey, that'd be something to cover the budget deficit.
[53:43.380 --> 53:45.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, there's always a budget deficit somewhere.
[53:45.760 --> 53:51.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what they see a non-commercial radio station as a potential moneymaker.
[53:52.340 --> 53:56.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Fortunately, that station was bought by its employees, I believe.
[53:56.220 --> 53:59.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they're going to try and save it in that particular way.
[53:59.300 --> 54:00.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And hopefully they will.
[54:00.500 --> 54:06.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it just goes to show the danger that any station can fall into once the financial burden becomes too great.
[54:07.180 --> 54:10.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the WBAI is certainly not immune from that.
[54:10.900 --> 54:11.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: The same thing could happen.
[54:11.800 --> 54:16.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: There was talk years ago of us going to a lesser frequency on the dial.
[54:16.720 --> 54:18.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unfortunately, cooler heads prevailed.
[54:18.440 --> 54:25.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was years ago when people were saying, hey, you know, we could make millions of dollars if we sell this frequency at 99.5 FM.
[54:25.540 --> 54:26.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, think of it.
[54:26.080 --> 54:27.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: 99.5 FM.
[54:27.200 --> 54:29.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can't get more in the middle of the FM dial than that.
[54:30.780 --> 54:34.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Usually, non-commercial radio is segregated below 92.
[54:34.840 --> 54:39.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, and nobody ever wanders over below 92 because, well, that's where the weirdos hang out.
[54:39.940 --> 54:42.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we're right here, right smack next to Z100.
[54:42.800 --> 54:45.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're right next to Hot 97 and all those other people, you know.
[54:45.880 --> 54:54.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a lot of folks going from one station to another, they don't quite turn the dial hard enough and they miss their station and they hit us instead.
[54:55.360 --> 54:59.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And sometimes, sometimes they're disgusted and revolted and they turn even faster.
[55:00.060 --> 55:07.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: But sometimes, those few times, like maybe now, you stick around and you listen and you hear what people are saying, what they're doing.
[55:08.540 --> 55:11.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you say, wow, I never knew you could do that on radio before.
[55:13.160 --> 55:14.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you can't.
[55:14.800 --> 55:17.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can't do this on radio without support.
[55:17.600 --> 55:18.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what it boils down to.
[55:19.320 --> 55:22.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, we're not asking for funds because we're greedy.
[55:22.280 --> 55:25.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're not asking for funds because, you know, we want to pay ourselves.
[55:25.920 --> 55:27.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't even pay ourselves here.
[55:27.140 --> 55:28.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're doing this for nothing.
[55:28.900 --> 55:32.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're just asking for money because that's the only way we can continue doing this.
[55:32.700 --> 55:33.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sure, we could.
[55:33.960 --> 55:37.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: We could say, okay, let's sell some commercial time.
[55:37.460 --> 55:40.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's try it out like Channel 13 does.
[55:40.220 --> 55:45.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, like PBS stations across the nation are starting to experiment with commercials a little bit.
[55:45.200 --> 55:47.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the underwriting works.
[55:47.080 --> 55:55.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you can say, you can have these phrases now saying that, hey, Coke is pretty good or Coke is maybe even better than this other brand.
[55:55.980 --> 55:57.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it's not really a commercial.
[55:57.380 --> 55:58.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just an announcement.
[55:58.320 --> 56:02.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's an announcement at the beginning of the program and at the end of the program and maybe in the middle of the program too.
[56:02.460 --> 56:06.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe just a little scroll thing underneath the program while it's going on as well.
[56:06.580 --> 56:08.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not going to bother anybody.
[56:08.240 --> 56:12.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then they start experimenting with real commercials, you know, inserting those in as well.
[56:13.220 --> 56:22.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: And before you know it, you've lost the unique non-commercial status and, more importantly than that, you've lost whatever independence you have.
[56:22.160 --> 56:26.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because, hey, who wants to piss off Coca-Cola if they're your prime sponsor?
[56:27.100 --> 56:27.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know?
[56:27.760 --> 56:30.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, that's a lot of money we're talking about here.
[56:31.300 --> 56:33.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: money is what it boils down to.
[56:33.240 --> 56:39.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, when we have individual listeners supporting us, it's totally different because you're individuals.
[56:40.340 --> 56:52.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're not going to agree with everything you hear on this radio station, but odds are you'll be able to get a voice somehow to hear something that you like, to say something that you want to say over the FM airwaves.
[56:52.580 --> 56:53.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what you're supporting.
[56:53.780 --> 56:54.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please help us out.
[56:55.040 --> 56:57.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[56:57.760 --> 57:07.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is our off-the-hook special for this particular marathon, so if you're going to show support, please do it now and send the message that off-the-hook is important to you.
[57:07.920 --> 57:09.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's an important message to send.
[57:09.580 --> 57:14.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think that a lot of people are becoming aware of the things we're trying to say.
[57:14.580 --> 57:16.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, we were in USA today.
[57:16.340 --> 57:18.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: That means that people are starting to take notice of us.
[57:18.360 --> 57:19.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
[57:19.940 --> 57:34.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of like the AOL syndrome where I guess the mass market starts looking at you as a potential moneymaker maybe or as somebody to be cautious of.
[57:34.580 --> 57:42.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it's also good because there are those sparks of light out there in the populace that you may not reach in any other way.
[57:43.040 --> 57:44.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's why it's important to be here.
[57:44.660 --> 57:54.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's why it's important to talk to people who may or may not be coming from the right background the right agenda.
[57:54.620 --> 58:03.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: For instance, we talked to the people I talked to the people in Atlanta, Georgia at the Hacker Convention thinking these people were independent filmmakers.
[58:04.040 --> 58:07.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I said to myself okay, I'll help an independent filmmaker out.
[58:07.700 --> 58:09.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it turned out it was the Secret Service.
[58:10.060 --> 58:11.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, you got me.
[58:11.480 --> 58:17.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: I talked to the Secret Service on camera and they interviewed me and I didn't even know it was them and so did many other people.
[58:17.220 --> 58:26.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you know the alternative to that is to not talk to anybody, is to clam up, to withdraw into a shell.
[58:26.500 --> 58:36.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think overall we'd be much worse off if we just kept to ourselves, didn't share information with anybody, and just acted in an overall suspicious manner.
[58:38.280 --> 58:40.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's risky, but it's essential.
[58:40.920 --> 58:51.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's the only way to get the message out, is to try and reach as many people as possible, to let us know, let you know, that we're out here, and to give you the same opportunity to do that.
[58:52.000 --> 58:57.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of course, we need a vehicle to be able to do that with, and this radio station is a great vehicle to have.
[58:57.960 --> 59:04.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know how many people in New York realize how lucky they are, but if you don't realize it, there's one very important way to find out.
[59:04.520 --> 59:06.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Get in a car and drive.
[59:07.000 --> 59:09.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And just start driving around this country and tuning the radio dial.
[59:10.140 --> 59:11.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Even go to big cities.
[59:11.620 --> 59:13.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Go to Boston and Chicago.
[59:13.380 --> 59:17.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you'll find non-commercial radio stations, you'll find some good ones, but you won't find something like this.
[59:17.780 --> 59:22.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sitting here in a control room where amazing things happen every single day.
[59:22.840 --> 59:27.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: The people that come in here and do radio are some of the most interesting people in the world.
[59:27.640 --> 59:35.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll get leaders of countries, you'll get rock musicians, you'll get hippies from the 60s, and rap artists from the 90s.
[59:35.900 --> 59:41.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll get all kinds of interesting people coming through these walls, or doors actually, sometimes walls depends.
[59:41.240 --> 59:45.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: organizations, and you can't have that without community support.
[59:45.400 --> 59:46.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the important thing.
[59:47.160 --> 59:53.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: So whether or not you want the hacker t-shirt and the hacker quarterly subscription, that's not really the point, is it?
[59:53.840 --> 59:57.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: The point is that you want the radio station, that you support the program.
[59:58.520 --> 01:00:04.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400, that's the number to call to voice your support, makes a big difference.
[01:00:04.700 --> 01:00:17.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I know you might be hearing this thinking that I'm just programmed to say that, that it makes a big difference, that every call counts, that we read every letter, and you know, everything makes a difference to us.
[01:00:17.620 --> 01:00:20.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we're at the stage where it does make a difference.
[01:00:20.720 --> 01:00:24.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: One person calling in right now, pledging $25, makes a difference.
[01:00:24.760 --> 01:00:25.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: It really does.
[01:00:27.270 --> 01:00:36.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400, and again, not to sound too commercial or anything like that, we do take MasterCard and Visa, so if you want to spread it out over time, you certainly can do that as well.
[01:00:38.060 --> 01:00:40.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400, thanks to everybody who called in.
[01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:46.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Got a smattering of calls there, which is always nice to see, makes me think that there are people out there that care, that are listening.
[01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:49.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have a lot more things to go through in the weeks ahead.
[01:00:49.980 --> 01:00:53.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, in case you missed it, in case you're tuning in now at 10 o'clock, we've been on for an hour.
[01:00:53.940 --> 01:00:59.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we're in the middle of playing a special videotape that we'll be offering, that we are offering.
[01:01:00.160 --> 01:01:06.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: But in case you missed the announcement that Off the Hook is moving, we're moving to Tuesday nights at 8pm starting October 3rd.
[01:01:07.160 --> 01:01:09.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I happen to think that's a better time slot, actually.
[01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:19.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know what people out there think, but being on a little bit earlier and possibly reaching other people as well, it's always good to try something new, I think.
[01:01:20.140 --> 01:01:21.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:25.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's the news that we have, as far as the show goes.
[01:01:25.880 --> 01:01:28.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we had some news we reported on Bernie S.
[01:01:28.980 --> 01:01:29.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: earlier.
[01:01:29.640 --> 01:01:34.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: I guess we'll report that again later on, towards the end of the program, so we don't have to repeat ourselves too many times.
[01:01:35.120 --> 01:01:41.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just to recap one more time, because we're going to go back to the videotape now, and obviously it's not a videotape on the radio, we know that.
[01:01:41.680 --> 01:01:43.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you're going to hear the audio part of it.
[01:01:43.940 --> 01:02:00.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you want the full video portion, which includes an hour and a half of journalists, film producers, to people who made the film Hackers, right there on videotape, answering questions from hackers a year ago, before the film was actually made, then for $150,
[01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:09.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: you'll get that videotape, you'll get a subscription to 2600 magazine, you'll be the first to find out all kinds of neat, controversial things four times a year.
[01:02:09.820 --> 01:02:18.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you'll also get the brand new 2600 T-shirt, which has only been distributed overseas, so nobody else in this country has one yet, unless they've been overseas and come back.
[01:02:18.040 --> 01:02:28.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Like, 212-279-3400, that T-shirt, by the way, has the Michelangelo virus on the front of it, and in case you want to know what the Michelangelo virus looks like, you just have to look at a T-shirt to see.
[01:02:28.420 --> 01:02:30.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it's all there, and it's all very dangerous.
[01:02:31.850 --> 01:02:34.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, that's in the words of some people in charge.
[01:02:35.020 --> 01:02:40.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400, again, for a $75 pledge, you will get the T-shirt and the subscription to the magazine.
[01:02:41.320 --> 01:02:56.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And for any pledge, you'll get a one-year's guide to the radio station, the folio, we call it, as well as, I think, the best thing of all, the satisfaction of knowing that you're helping a place like WBAI exist and stay the way it's been since the early 1960s.
[01:02:56.840 --> 01:02:57.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, enough talking.
[01:02:57.920 --> 01:02:59.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:02:59.380 --> 01:03:01.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hope to see some calls come in while we're playing the next portion.
[01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:08.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: What we're going to play now is words of Ian Softley, who is the director of the film Hackers.
[01:03:09.240 --> 01:03:13.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, this is August of 1994, before the film was actually made.
[01:03:13.040 --> 01:03:17.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: So you'll hear something about the thought process going into that.
[01:03:17.460 --> 01:03:27.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: That will be followed by Raphael Moreau, who wrote the film, wrote the screenplay years ago, and came to 2,600 meetings and got lots of input from people there.
[01:03:28.380 --> 01:03:34.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we'll be taking some phone calls later from people that have hopefully seen the film, have some feedback on that.
[01:03:35.220 --> 01:03:37.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400, please.
[01:03:37.660 --> 01:03:38.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Show your support.
[01:03:38.620 --> 01:03:40.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks to everybody you have so far.
[01:03:41.780 --> 01:03:46.660]  [SPEAKER_23]: I came to the project Hackers relatively late in its development.
[01:03:49.700 --> 01:03:55.180]  [SPEAKER_23]: After I was over here for the release of Backbeat last year, I was looking at a number of scripts.
[01:03:55.240 --> 01:03:57.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: I didn't think I was going to make a film over here.
[01:03:58.200 --> 01:04:04.920]  [SPEAKER_23]: I had some more pet projects in my top drawer that I was hoping to get off the ground.
[01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:22.900]  [SPEAKER_23]: But the thing that appealed to me about this script and made it stand out really from all the others I was being offered, a script written by Raphael, was the fact that it had a sense of humor that was based on a kind of delinquency.
[01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:30.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: It had many similar themes to the movie Backbeat that I just made.
[01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:49.000]  [SPEAKER_23]: And the thing that really appealed to me was that here was a subculture bursting through and really threatening the established culture in a way that the established culture was not going to be able to ignore it anymore and was going to subsume it but also be influenced by it.
[01:04:49.880 --> 01:05:13.280]  [SPEAKER_23]: I think that for each generation, what is discovering things anew, what is working out the world for your own, working out the rules that you want to live it by, the established culture always sees that as delinquency, whether it's drug experimentation or riding motorbikes in the 1950s or whatever.
[01:05:13.640 --> 01:05:20.880]  [SPEAKER_23]: So it was really from that broad cultural point of view that I hooked into the script.
[01:05:21.020 --> 01:05:28.940]  [SPEAKER_23]: But I also just like the sense of fun and disrespect that I think is very healthy.
[01:05:29.200 --> 01:05:40.580]  [SPEAKER_23]: And the more I got to know about hacking culture, the more I realized that that sort of absurdist view of the world, you know, isn't it ridiculous that everybody trusts all of this stuff?
[01:05:40.920 --> 01:05:51.860]  [SPEAKER_23]: Everybody trusts that the computers are going to allow them to lead their life in a well-ordered way and that the money that you say you have in your account is the money you have in your account.
[01:05:51.980 --> 01:05:59.400]  [SPEAKER_23]: When somebody says you have this, you've committed this crime, or you haven't paid that parking ticket, or you've got this grade in school, nobody questions it.
[01:05:59.920 --> 01:06:11.000]  [SPEAKER_23]: And I think the mirror that hacking has held up society is not only amusing, but has got a serious point to it as well.
[01:06:13.520 --> 01:06:39.680]  [SPEAKER_23]: Having really got hooked on the subject from a point of view of making a movie, the question then arises as to how do you treat a real-life situation, a script that obviously borrows on a lot of real issues and real people, in order that it's an enjoyable and entertaining movie that people are going to go and see,
[01:06:39.900 --> 01:06:45.440]  [SPEAKER_23]: but also that it's going to be true in some way to its subject matter.
[01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:58.980]  [SPEAKER_23]: And that's the... the big question that... that approaches... and faces people like... like me, who... want to make movies based on, in some way, real... real life.
[01:06:59.720 --> 01:07:03.060]  [SPEAKER_23]: And it's a question that there isn't really any right answer to.
[01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:12.520]  [SPEAKER_23]: And I know that when I was making Backbeat, a lot of people were nervous when I was trying to get the film off the ground.
[01:07:13.340 --> 01:07:19.480]  [SPEAKER_23]: For those of you that don't know, it's the story of The Fifth Beatle, Stuart Sutcliffe, and his relationship with John Lennon.
[01:07:19.660 --> 01:07:25.640]  [SPEAKER_23]: It's a very sacred story, in a sense, and a very well-documented one.
[01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:28.500]  [SPEAKER_23]: The real people were... a lot of the real people were alive.
[01:07:28.800 --> 01:07:32.240]  [SPEAKER_23]: A lot of the... the story had been documented.
[01:07:32.640 --> 01:07:35.500]  [SPEAKER_23]: But I had to take liberties with the facts.
[01:07:35.500 --> 01:07:45.980]  [SPEAKER_23]: And I think one of the things that I was approaching, first of all, when I came to New York and started to think about researching this...
[01:07:45.980 --> 01:07:53.760]  [SPEAKER_23]: this movie with Raph, was really to do what I did on Backbeat, which was to absorb myself as much as I could in the relatively short time.
[01:07:53.760 --> 01:08:04.320]  [SPEAKER_23]: Knowing that Raphael had spent, I think, a good two years meeting hackers and really trying to use that knowledge to...
[01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:13.840]  [SPEAKER_23]: to get the spirit of the movie right, bearing in mind that at times we were going to have to adapt things for the big screen.
[01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:32.230]  [SPEAKER_23]: So those are really the two... the two ways that I... that I approach the material, trying to find out what's... what's really out there and then find another way in which it can be presented for the screen that is true to that essence, but at the same time takes on a life of its own.
[01:08:35.660 --> 01:08:42.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was Ian Softley, the director of the film Hackers, which has just come out this... this past weekend.
[01:08:42.780 --> 01:08:58.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Next, we'll be hearing from Raphael Moreau, who wrote the film, wrote it from a screenplay, actually wrote it quite some time ago, maybe about three or four years ago, and it has actually been made, it's actually out on the screen now, and this is some of... some of his thoughts,
[01:08:58.800 --> 01:08:59.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: putting it together.
[01:09:00.160 --> 01:09:02.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[01:09:07.400 --> 01:09:11.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: I guess everybody would be curious to say how a hacker script gets off the ground or originally gets started.
[01:09:11.460 --> 01:09:17.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: I would say that one of the things that this movie has very much in its favor is that it was not originally developed at a studio.
[01:09:17.620 --> 01:09:20.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: It wasn't somebody saying, kind of like, oh, cool, you know, let's do a rollerblade movie.
[01:09:20.740 --> 01:09:22.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Kids are really into that, and that sort of thing.
[01:09:23.140 --> 01:09:35.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: It came about as a result, really, if I trace it all the way back to its real origins, it was before war games or anything, when a very good friend of mine in high school, who was studying mathematics our first year of college, took me into a room where there were a lot of computers,
[01:09:35.580 --> 01:09:40.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: and it was about 10 o'clock in the evening, and every computer was filled.
[01:09:41.460 --> 01:09:45.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: They were working obsessively, and my first reaction was, wow, these people love their major.
[01:09:49.460 --> 01:09:52.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I said to him, this is cool, what are they doing?
[01:09:52.820 --> 01:09:53.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: I have no idea.
[01:09:53.360 --> 01:09:56.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he said, well, they're all cracking software.
[01:09:56.140 --> 01:10:00.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're all getting into these games, and they're breaking the codes to all of them, everybody.
[01:10:00.380 --> 01:10:02.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there was a big sign on the wall that said, no cracking or hacking.
[01:10:03.880 --> 01:10:10.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I was like, this is pretty obvious, everybody at every monitor is doing this, isn't there some sort of a monitor or something?
[01:10:10.080 --> 01:10:27.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I was like, yeah, he's over there trying to crack into, you know, and that was really sort of the, when I, in a serious way, looking at how everybody, I mean, there's a level of concentration that I think is a level of concentration that great athletes get into.
[01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:40.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's a level of concentration that, you know, dancing to some really great music, or having great sex, or having, there's just a flow state in that, that is what I, I didn't even realize at the time, but it's what I saw in that room.
[01:10:40.360 --> 01:10:51.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it was just, that's when the germ of wanting to write about this, because I think that any fun script really starts from character, rather than, oh, let's make a movie about rollerbladers.
[01:10:52.340 --> 01:11:04.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, as time went on, and then War Games came out, and I moved to New York, and was always tracking stories about hackers, and what happened with Robert Morris, and just on and on and on.
[01:11:04.740 --> 01:11:15.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: And influential articles, like the guys that, the ones that you guys wrote, that were very influential for me, in terms of looking at it as a, as a, as a subculture, with, um, uh, and then wrote the script.
[01:11:15.860 --> 01:11:20.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, and the script was what's called a spec script, which means nobody paid me to write it.
[01:11:20.400 --> 01:11:34.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I took two months off, and my wife worked extra shifts as a bartender, and, and I hung out with Phiber Optik, and, and, and Acid Freak, and, and, and the manual, and, and, and, uh, a whole lot of people for a large period of time were very generous with their ideas and,
[01:11:34.660 --> 01:11:36.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: and, and the things that they'd been through.
[01:11:36.500 --> 01:11:45.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, and during that time, we started to feel a growing sense of, of responsibility towards the ideas, the political ideas and things that they said.
[01:11:45.940 --> 01:12:02.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I, I, I do think that, as, as, uh, you guys said, a kind of advocacy journalism, it's, it, there's, there was a very much of an advocacy screenwriting in this sense, It's because I was just so won over by everybody's sense of humor and the politics and the things that they were trying to say and do.
[01:12:02.340 --> 01:12:11.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: I very much agree with the idea that there's a responsibility on you as hackers in how you present yourself.
[01:12:12.540 --> 01:12:23.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: And when questions are asked to you by journalists during the long period of time I was with the people I was working with, I saw them get sandbagged several times by Forbes magazine.
[01:12:24.040 --> 01:12:25.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: I shouldn't name any names.
[01:12:25.320 --> 01:12:27.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if there's anybody here from Forbes, but I saw that happen.
[01:12:29.360 --> 01:12:31.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the Geraldo stuff and just everything.
[01:12:35.060 --> 01:12:41.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: You have to understand that these people that come to you are, in some cases, they're just trying to make a buck.
[01:12:41.540 --> 01:12:45.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they're going to try to come up with the most dramatic thing that they can come up with.
[01:12:45.800 --> 01:12:53.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hacker takes over satellite and stuff like that because that's them going back to their editor and saying, Oh, I have a new angle on this story.
[01:12:53.340 --> 01:12:56.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: And your new angle in your life is their new angle.
[01:12:58.060 --> 01:12:59.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: So it's a two-way street.
[01:12:59.520 --> 01:13:00.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: There is a responsibility.
[01:13:00.420 --> 01:13:04.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can't just point the finger and say, you know, these people don't know anything about what the hell they're talking about.
[01:13:08.660 --> 01:13:19.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: The one thing I would say about this particular script, which to me was a very good sign that happened with Michael as well, was that when we finally started to get the...
[01:13:19.900 --> 01:13:22.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: First off, the piece, when it first went out, was several years ago.
[01:13:22.900 --> 01:13:28.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: And hacking was not exactly on the cutting edge of, like, culture that it is now, and mass culture.
[01:13:28.200 --> 01:13:29.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's just sort of been working its way in.
[01:13:29.200 --> 01:13:31.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And so most of the reactions we got from people were kind of like, eh.
[01:13:33.460 --> 01:13:39.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the interesting thing was that we got really strong, very visceral political reactions from people.
[01:13:40.680 --> 01:13:48.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: In fact, the studio that's now making the film under a previous regime had the piece covered by what's called a story analyst or a reader.
[01:13:49.560 --> 01:13:56.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: And one of the people who's working with us managed a social engineer, a copy of that coverage, or what's called coverage, sort of somebody's opinion of the script.
[01:13:59.200 --> 01:14:15.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's been a young Republican, because he really just did not like the whole idea of having hackers as protagonists and sort of introducing their view of the world and how it works and why, in a sense, if we don't all become hackers, we're shirking our responsibility as individuals and citizens.
[01:14:17.980 --> 01:14:28.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sometime later, Michael gave the script to a particular studio head who responded with the quote, I am uncomfortable with its anti-establishment attitude.
[01:14:31.020 --> 01:14:35.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: And even though we were being turned down by a studio, my reaction was like, it works!
[01:14:38.880 --> 01:14:42.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: And other than that, any questions that anybody would take?
[01:14:42.680 --> 01:14:44.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: I do want to... one last thing.
[01:14:45.160 --> 01:14:48.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: I read a great quote the other day, and I don't quite know who...
[01:14:48.840 --> 01:15:04.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't remember who wrote it, but it's in terms of what Paul and Julian are talking about, of your responsibilities as hackers in talking to the media, is that if you're not very careful, the quote was, you'll be paved over by the information superhighway.
[01:15:05.920 --> 01:15:07.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I think that's quite true.
[01:15:07.400 --> 01:15:16.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that as people are finding a way to make money out of the Internet, and people finding a way, you know, the whole home shopping thing and everything, there is a... what they perceive as a cancer.
[01:15:17.000 --> 01:15:18.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: And hackers are that cancer.
[01:15:18.880 --> 01:15:32.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And unless you find a way to present yourselves and take that on as part of your responsibility, as people that... I'm not saying everybody should be political, but you should be aware when you're talking to these people what you're doing, in terms of the information you're giving them.
[01:15:33.820 --> 01:15:37.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because, let's face it, it's like I said, corporate America is not quite enamored of you.
[01:15:46.830 --> 01:15:57.230]  [SPEAKER_27]: I don't have much, really, to add, except that when I first became aware of this world was 20-some years ago.
[01:15:57.430 --> 01:16:00.770]  [SPEAKER_27]: And I worked on a thing called the Network Project out of...
[01:16:00.770 --> 01:16:03.790]  [SPEAKER_27]: I came out of the SDS in Columbia in 68.
[01:16:04.970 --> 01:16:15.610]  [SPEAKER_27]: And it studied how information corporations were structured basically in a form of monopoly capitalization.
[01:16:17.430 --> 01:16:24.670]  [SPEAKER_27]: And then I went off and made a lot of good comedies, which were about as subversive as I could be in that period.
[01:16:27.370 --> 01:16:47.770]  [SPEAKER_27]: Now, what's quite unique about this activity in the information world and the facility that, I guess, the group that is called hackers has, and quite frankly, the whole younger generation, which is facile with the computer technology, way beyond any of their seniors,
[01:16:48.670 --> 01:17:01.770]  [SPEAKER_27]: be it their teachers or their parents, is that the context of society has become information-based as opposed to, you know, oil and gold and whatever else.
[01:17:01.970 --> 01:17:18.890]  [SPEAKER_27]: So, finally, you have the potential for a new frontier, which in the American spirit of storytelling and the great American myths has always been about some guy going out there onto the frontier.
[01:17:19.610 --> 01:17:35.090]  [SPEAKER_27]: And what's happening here, what I've been watching the last day or so, is that same kind of spirit, which has been missing somewhat culturally for the last 20 years until things got caught up with themselves to give this, you know, Internet.
[01:17:35.410 --> 01:17:59.070]  [SPEAKER_27]: I remember also sitting a few months ago at UCLA at the Super Highway Conference where I was sitting, I just sort of wandered in and sat and watched all the heads of the major companies blab about what a great thing this was and how they could all be connected and subverted.
[01:18:01.030 --> 01:18:02.770]  [SPEAKER_27]: And they didn't have a clue, really.
[01:18:03.910 --> 01:18:07.810]  [SPEAKER_27]: And what's fun to see here is that people really do have a clue and they understand how to use it.
[01:18:08.330 --> 01:18:23.090]  [SPEAKER_27]: The thing that's been raised, which is about journalism too, which is about responsibility, but it's the responsibility of everybody who talks to journalists, who makes films, who creates any kind of cultural activity, is to have some sense of their own responsibility.
[01:18:23.450 --> 01:18:25.370]  [SPEAKER_27]: If everybody carries their own weight, it's going to be cool.
[01:18:25.970 --> 01:18:35.470]  [SPEAKER_27]: The problem is there's some people who want to carry more than their own weight and there are people who just are sort of irresponsible.
[01:18:36.450 --> 01:18:40.490]  [SPEAKER_27]: We're trying to be hip and aware of what's going down.
[01:18:40.650 --> 01:18:45.290]  [SPEAKER_27]: We're also trying to make a movie that's going to be a lot of fun to go to.
[01:18:45.490 --> 01:18:46.770]  [SPEAKER_27]: But we'll see.
[01:18:46.970 --> 01:18:47.870]  [SPEAKER_27]: We think we can do it.
[01:18:49.770 --> 01:18:51.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, did they do it or didn't they do it?
[01:18:51.810 --> 01:18:54.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's something I guess we'll have to discuss a little later on.
[01:18:54.010 --> 01:19:00.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: After 11 o'clock, we'll be taking phone calls on whether or not Hackers, the film, was successful at what it tried to do.
[01:19:00.190 --> 01:19:06.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: We just heard some statements from the director, the producer, and the author.
[01:19:06.370 --> 01:19:14.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, in the order, the director, the author, and the producer of the film Hackers, who all appeared at the Hackers on Planet Earth conference last year.
[01:19:14.950 --> 01:19:31.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: And for a pledge of $150, you can get a copy of that videotape as well as a subscription to the magazine, 2600 magazine, that is, and a 2600 t-shirt, which no doubt, no doubt, will start all kinds of conversations as you wear it around your town.
[01:19:31.750 --> 01:19:37.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Whenever I wear the old 2600 shirt, people always come up to me and say, hey, do you know the people that put that out?
[01:19:37.670 --> 01:19:39.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or have you ever met a hacker?
[01:19:39.530 --> 01:19:45.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: And questions that are kind of like hard for me to answer, but which start all kinds of interesting conversations nonetheless.
[01:19:46.170 --> 01:19:55.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: And of course, it's your choice whether or not you care to wear it out in the open or cover it up with something else and know that it's something that you're wearing and keep that to yourself.
[01:19:55.050 --> 01:19:55.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's up to you.
[01:19:55.950 --> 01:19:58.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: We also have the $75 pledge.
[01:19:58.650 --> 01:20:05.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: For $75, you'll get the t-shirt and the subscription to the magazine, which comes out every quarter.
[01:20:05.510 --> 01:20:07.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're 56 pages in length.
[01:20:08.070 --> 01:20:12.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, it's kind of strange because the magazine is popping up all over the place now.
[01:20:12.450 --> 01:20:15.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's showing up in bookstores and supermarkets and things like that.
[01:20:15.530 --> 01:20:20.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's kind of caught the attention of virtually everybody in the country.
[01:20:20.590 --> 01:20:24.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's been featured on 60 Minutes, on Nightline, USA Today, the New York Times.
[01:20:25.270 --> 01:20:28.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's just this year that this has happened.
[01:20:28.070 --> 01:20:33.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, it's definitely strange seeing so many people get into hacking all of a sudden.
[01:20:34.030 --> 01:20:37.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this film coming out is going to make it even more crazy.
[01:20:37.830 --> 01:20:43.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you can sort of ride the crest of the wave, although I've got to tell you, the wave is well in progress now.
[01:20:43.290 --> 01:20:45.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've been coming out for 11 years with the magazine.
[01:20:46.330 --> 01:20:48.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you haven't seen a copy, you really should.
[01:20:48.590 --> 01:20:56.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you're listening to this radio station right now and you're at all interested in what you've been hearing, you really should be reading this magazine because that's what everybody else is reading.
[01:20:56.610 --> 01:20:59.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what they read before they made the film.
[01:20:59.150 --> 01:21:03.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what they read before they do certain news stories and things like that.
[01:21:03.190 --> 01:21:06.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: They don't always turn out real well.
[01:21:06.530 --> 01:21:08.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes they don't turn out well at all.
[01:21:09.050 --> 01:21:13.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, at least there's the opportunity for a turnout in some form.
[01:21:13.710 --> 01:21:20.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: And by being open, by giving the information out in a free manner, that's what we're all about.
[01:21:20.530 --> 01:21:22.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:21:22.590 --> 01:21:29.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's get some phone calls on the line because the more support we get, the stronger we will be, the longer we can keep doing this kind of thing.
[01:21:30.730 --> 01:21:35.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's going to be all kinds of occurrences in the future, good and bad.
[01:21:35.910 --> 01:21:37.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Today, for instance, AT&T.
[01:21:37.370 --> 01:21:37.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you know this?
[01:21:37.790 --> 01:21:39.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: AT&T split into three pieces today.
[01:21:40.310 --> 01:21:40.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[01:21:40.870 --> 01:21:41.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's three pieces.
[01:21:42.690 --> 01:21:44.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're going to call it AT&T.
[01:21:44.450 --> 01:21:45.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, they're not going to do that there.
[01:21:46.570 --> 01:21:47.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: That would be a good idea, though.
[01:21:48.330 --> 01:21:54.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're going to split off into, I believe it's equipment, services, and computers.
[01:21:55.350 --> 01:21:55.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[01:21:56.030 --> 01:21:57.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're going to get into computers.
[01:21:57.490 --> 01:22:00.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're going to try and forget the merger with NCR, which didn't quite go very well.
[01:22:01.270 --> 01:22:08.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think the computer, or actually the services, the services is going to remain AT&T.
[01:22:09.070 --> 01:22:16.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the equipment, I'm not quite sure how this is going to work, but something is going to be called Global Information Services.
[01:22:16.410 --> 01:22:20.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: That might be the computer systems that they start selling.
[01:22:20.550 --> 01:22:23.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not really sure exactly how they're going to do this, but they decided to split into three pieces.
[01:22:23.950 --> 01:22:26.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the reports I was hearing on the radio were kind of nuts.
[01:22:26.370 --> 01:22:31.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were saying things like, AT&T thought it was better to do it this way so that they could compete with the Internet.
[01:22:32.290 --> 01:22:33.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm like, compete with the Internet?
[01:22:34.050 --> 01:22:35.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's like competing with the sun.
[01:22:35.330 --> 01:22:36.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't compete with the Internet.
[01:22:36.690 --> 01:22:37.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: You work with it.
[01:22:37.970 --> 01:22:39.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: You become part of it.
[01:22:39.530 --> 01:22:40.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: You use it.
[01:22:40.330 --> 01:22:40.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a tool.
[01:22:41.030 --> 01:22:48.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't try and figure out a different way to do this unless you figure you can do it in a better way.
[01:22:49.070 --> 01:22:51.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't think AT&T are going to be those people.
[01:22:52.450 --> 01:22:53.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:22:55.190 --> 01:23:06.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is where you'll hear alternative views on various topics like this as far as big corporate mergers, corporate takeovers, and individual squashing and things like that.
[01:23:06.650 --> 01:23:08.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: You won't hear this on the commercial stations.
[01:23:08.610 --> 01:23:15.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: You won't hear this in very many places because those places, believe it or not, are the same companies that they're talking about.
[01:23:15.590 --> 01:23:17.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And of course, they're going to talk about them in glowing terms.
[01:23:17.990 --> 01:23:19.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: You need places like this.
[01:23:19.190 --> 01:23:20.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: You need WBAI.
[01:23:20.110 --> 01:23:20.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: You need off the hook.
[01:23:20.990 --> 01:23:25.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: You need individual thought and a voice so that you can speak out so that you can be a part of things.
[01:23:26.050 --> 01:23:30.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not so important what it is that we're giving you for $75 or for $150.
[01:23:31.150 --> 01:23:34.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: By the way, there are all kinds of other things you can get when you call up.
[01:23:34.430 --> 01:23:37.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can ask the tally room people what else that they have to offer.
[01:23:37.290 --> 01:23:39.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: You might want something that has nothing to do with hacking of computers whatsoever.
[01:23:39.730 --> 01:23:40.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've got all kinds of things.
[01:23:40.950 --> 01:23:42.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: But that's not the reason we're doing this.
[01:23:42.550 --> 01:23:43.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not an auction.
[01:23:43.450 --> 01:23:46.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're not out selling material here.
[01:23:46.210 --> 01:23:49.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're just trying to make it a little bit easier for people.
[01:23:49.450 --> 01:23:58.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're donating equipment or books or tapes or what have you to the radio station and giving those away to people that call in and pledge a certain amount.
[01:23:58.890 --> 01:24:00.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's all based on donations.
[01:24:00.870 --> 01:24:04.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: The most important thing is for you to realize that you're supporting the radio station.
[01:24:04.850 --> 01:24:06.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're supporting freedom of speech.
[01:24:06.030 --> 01:24:08.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're supporting this radio program.
[01:24:08.950 --> 01:24:14.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: And really, the best thing I can say at this point is to call in 212-279-3400.
[01:24:15.550 --> 01:24:17.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why are you waving the credit card in front of me like that?
[01:24:17.310 --> 01:24:18.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: We do take credit cards.
[01:24:18.590 --> 01:24:19.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are you going to make a pledge?
[01:24:19.550 --> 01:24:21.750]  [SPEAKER_30]: I was thinking about making a pledge.
[01:24:21.870 --> 01:24:22.210]  [SPEAKER_30]: Oh, wow.
[01:24:22.290 --> 01:24:23.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: I finally got through to somebody in the room.
[01:24:23.710 --> 01:24:24.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's really incredible.
[01:24:25.310 --> 01:24:26.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, okay.
[01:24:26.110 --> 01:24:27.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're going to make a pledge based on what I just said now.
[01:24:28.030 --> 01:24:29.710]  [SPEAKER_30]: Well, I'll tell you.
[01:24:29.770 --> 01:24:31.630]  [SPEAKER_30]: I've been listening to this show quite a bit.
[01:24:31.770 --> 01:24:33.210]  [SPEAKER_30]: Not only listening to it, but actually experiencing it live.
[01:24:33.210 --> 01:24:33.390]  [SPEAKER_30]: Who are you, by the way?
[01:24:33.510 --> 01:24:34.030]  [SPEAKER_30]: Who lets you in here?
[01:24:34.030 --> 01:24:34.330]  [SPEAKER_30]: Doing it live.
[01:24:34.490 --> 01:24:35.050]  [SPEAKER_30]: My name is Blake.
[01:24:35.150 --> 01:24:35.290]  [SPEAKER_30]: Okay.
[01:24:36.650 --> 01:24:45.850]  [SPEAKER_30]: And I think, you know, instead of waiting for that 2,600 to show up on the bookstore shelves, I'd like to have it sent to me.
[01:24:45.950 --> 01:24:54.510]  [SPEAKER_30]: And it sounds like, from what I'm hearing you, if I'm hearing you correctly, $75 gets me a full year subscription and a 2,600 T-shirt.
[01:24:54.630 --> 01:24:55.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right.
[01:24:55.150 --> 01:24:58.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that T-shirt has not yet been released in this country.
[01:24:58.010 --> 01:25:00.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'd be among the first people to get one of those.
[01:25:01.310 --> 01:25:02.070]  [SPEAKER_30]: And what is it?
[01:25:02.110 --> 01:25:03.750]  [SPEAKER_30]: It's the Michelangelo virus.
[01:25:03.750 --> 01:25:05.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's the Michelangelo virus in the front.
[01:25:05.470 --> 01:25:11.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a black shirt with white lettering on it, just like the old ones, except the text is totally different now.
[01:25:12.630 --> 01:25:20.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's Michelangelo virus, and then on the back, there's all kinds of hackers articles and updated things.
[01:25:20.910 --> 01:25:24.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: The last shirt came out years ago, so the articles are kind of outdated by now.
[01:25:24.830 --> 01:25:27.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: And also, there's a smart card on the front, too.
[01:25:27.750 --> 01:25:29.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a little diagram of a smart card.
[01:25:29.890 --> 01:25:30.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.
[01:25:30.990 --> 01:25:32.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that Bill SF?
[01:25:32.390 --> 01:25:32.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's Bill SF.
[01:25:32.990 --> 01:25:34.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: You came all the way from Amsterdam here.
[01:25:34.370 --> 01:25:36.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I came all the way to Amsterdam for this.
[01:25:36.290 --> 01:25:36.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[01:25:37.190 --> 01:25:38.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is a big event.
[01:25:38.230 --> 01:25:44.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, I came out to New York and I didn't realize the Hacker's movie was being released, and all of a sudden, I'm in this...
[01:25:44.230 --> 01:25:44.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, you knew it.
[01:25:44.870 --> 01:25:47.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: You just were drawn to it, like a hawk to a light.
[01:25:47.590 --> 01:25:49.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was just kind of that sixth sense, I guess.
[01:25:49.510 --> 01:25:50.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it was really...
[01:25:51.290 --> 01:25:52.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's amazing, actually.
[01:25:52.550 --> 01:25:58.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: All the hackers from around the world somehow showed up in New York just the very weekend the hackers came out and they all claimed they didn't know this.
[01:25:58.710 --> 01:25:59.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's absolutely true.
[01:25:59.670 --> 01:26:04.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't know a thing about it and then I find out everyone's here and it's just like...
[01:26:04.290 --> 01:26:04.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's karma.
[01:26:04.990 --> 01:26:05.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what it is.
[01:26:05.830 --> 01:26:06.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess it is.
[01:26:06.730 --> 01:26:07.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or is it destiny?
[01:26:07.910 --> 01:26:08.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's something like that.
[01:26:09.110 --> 01:26:09.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's a...
[01:26:09.870 --> 01:26:11.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: But let's get back to Blake here.
[01:26:12.030 --> 01:26:12.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're really...
[01:26:12.490 --> 01:26:13.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're not kidding me.
[01:26:13.330 --> 01:26:13.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, I'm not kidding.
[01:26:13.870 --> 01:26:14.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're really making a pledge.
[01:26:14.870 --> 01:26:17.850]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm going to make a pledge for $75.
[01:26:18.410 --> 01:26:18.550]  [SPEAKER_30]: Wow.
[01:26:18.910 --> 01:26:22.350]  [SPEAKER_30]: And I understand you take credit cards and personal checks.
[01:26:22.790 --> 01:26:23.970]  [SPEAKER_30]: Now, one thing I just want to make clear with you...
[01:26:23.970 --> 01:26:25.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: I wouldn't wave that credit card around too much, though.
[01:26:25.610 --> 01:26:25.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, no.
[01:26:26.470 --> 01:26:27.070]  [SPEAKER_30]: Be careful.
[01:26:27.210 --> 01:26:27.610]  [SPEAKER_30]: Not in this room.
[01:26:27.630 --> 01:26:29.030]  [SPEAKER_30]: People have photographic memories in this room.
[01:26:30.170 --> 01:26:39.490]  [SPEAKER_30]: But one question I had was if I get on your subscription list for the magazine am I going to get put on any kind of FBI blacklist of some sort?
[01:26:39.650 --> 01:26:44.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, that is the question that is asked more than anything else at the magazine.
[01:26:45.510 --> 01:26:50.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the answer is that no one else has ever had access to our mailing list except for us.
[01:26:50.830 --> 01:26:51.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: We keep it encrypted.
[01:26:52.250 --> 01:26:57.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if somebody were to come in and steal our computers, they still would be able to get to the mailing list because the mailing list is encrypted.
[01:26:57.890 --> 01:27:02.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, oh, yes, of course, when we re-encrypt it, we wipe the original that was de-encrypted.
[01:27:02.790 --> 01:27:09.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know people are smart enough to realize that there's still a way to get to it even after you encrypt because there's the old clear text version somewhere.
[01:27:10.210 --> 01:27:12.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, yeah, we take great precautions.
[01:27:12.750 --> 01:27:13.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: We always have.
[01:27:19.990 --> 01:27:28.410]  [SPEAKER_30]: One of the things that kept Bernie S., for example, locked up with a $100,000 bail are the books that he had on his shelf.
[01:27:28.750 --> 01:27:29.710]  [SPEAKER_30]: That's really scary.
[01:27:29.830 --> 01:27:31.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: They took his 2600s, too.
[01:27:31.950 --> 01:27:34.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: They always take the 2600s because they...
[01:27:34.910 --> 01:27:40.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if they want to add to their libraries or what, but that's always something that piques their interest.
[01:27:40.890 --> 01:27:49.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you're not going to get in trouble by subscribing to us or by having your name in our database because that's something that is not revealed and we will never reveal that information to anybody.
[01:27:51.270 --> 01:27:52.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just something...
[01:27:52.430 --> 01:27:55.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: We mail it out to you and that's how it goes to the post office.
[01:27:55.210 --> 01:27:59.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unless you believe the post office is gathering names, I guess that's really the only possible way that it could happen.
[01:28:00.090 --> 01:28:03.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: But no one has ever gotten access to us in that way.
[01:28:03.450 --> 01:28:09.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, as you said before, getting it through the mail is preferable to getting it in the bookstores for several reasons.
[01:28:10.310 --> 01:28:12.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Most important being that you get it much sooner.
[01:28:12.270 --> 01:28:12.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: You get it much quicker.
[01:28:13.070 --> 01:28:13.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's more accurate.
[01:28:13.910 --> 01:28:16.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't have to fight with all the other people trying to get it.
[01:28:16.450 --> 01:28:19.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's great to have it out there in bookstores, but we have it out there.
[01:28:19.910 --> 01:28:23.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have it at a cheaper price at the bookstores so that people can see it for the first time.
[01:28:23.390 --> 01:28:26.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I think anyone that's ever tried to get it on a regular basis...
[01:28:26.290 --> 01:28:31.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've tried to get it on a regular basis to see who has it and it's frustrating because it's either hidden or it's...
[01:28:31.810 --> 01:28:33.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: I ask them when's it coming out.
[01:28:33.570 --> 01:28:35.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm the editor and I'm asking them I understand when it's coming out.
[01:28:35.750 --> 01:28:38.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're telling me this stuff that's totally wrong.
[01:28:38.790 --> 01:28:40.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're saying, yeah, it's supposed to come out next week.
[01:28:41.330 --> 01:28:43.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: And meanwhile, I haven't even sent it to the printers yet.
[01:28:43.290 --> 01:28:46.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't know how they know this, but they're telling you things that are not true at all.
[01:28:47.570 --> 01:28:49.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: This way, you'll get it directly from us.
[01:28:49.930 --> 01:28:52.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if there are any problems, you don't have to worry about the book story.
[01:28:52.250 --> 01:28:55.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't have to worry about dealing with us directly.
[01:28:56.190 --> 01:28:58.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't think you have to worry as far as that goes.
[01:28:58.990 --> 01:29:00.530]  [SPEAKER_30]: That does sound pretty good.
[01:29:00.630 --> 01:29:01.410]  [SPEAKER_30]: It's good to know that.
[01:29:01.410 --> 01:29:07.970]  [SPEAKER_30]: I can get that subscription, which I'm sure is hard to get for a lot of people, and I'm going to get that t-shirt, which I'm looking forward to.
[01:29:08.430 --> 01:29:18.410]  [SPEAKER_30]: And furthermore, I'm supporting this show, which makes me feel good because I've come to the show quite a bit and listened to you guys performing it live and so forth.
[01:29:18.890 --> 01:29:21.630]  [SPEAKER_30]: And I'd like to continue seeing that happen.
[01:29:21.870 --> 01:29:22.010]  [SPEAKER_30]: Yeah.
[01:29:22.590 --> 01:29:23.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, we're moving.
[01:29:23.730 --> 01:29:27.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're moving next week, but the week after that, we're moving to Tuesdays at 8 p.m.
[01:29:28.210 --> 01:29:28.890]  [SPEAKER_30]: Right, yeah.
[01:29:28.890 --> 01:29:30.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: So hopefully that's a better time slot.
[01:29:30.750 --> 01:29:31.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know yet.
[01:29:31.590 --> 01:29:33.110]  [SPEAKER_30]: Are you going to reach a larger audience?
[01:29:33.150 --> 01:29:33.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it's hard to say.
[01:29:34.010 --> 01:29:36.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know the first thing about radio demographics.
[01:29:37.090 --> 01:29:41.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hope they're not thinking too much in those terms because that's not really what we're all about here.
[01:29:41.690 --> 01:29:46.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: But as long as the people listening now are able to listen Tuesday at 8 p.m., I don't really see why they wouldn't be able to.
[01:29:47.870 --> 01:29:49.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that should be good.
[01:29:49.990 --> 01:29:52.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing.
[01:29:52.470 --> 01:29:53.110]  [SPEAKER_30]: That sounds great.
[01:29:53.130 --> 01:29:54.530]  [SPEAKER_30]: So sign me up with that.
[01:29:54.530 --> 01:29:58.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, what you should do is... Now, this is not what other listeners should do.
[01:29:59.470 --> 01:30:05.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: You should get up and walk down the hallway to the tally room where a tally person will take your information from you.
[01:30:05.190 --> 01:30:14.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: But all the rest of you, unless you're nearby, the best way to get through to us is to call us at 212-279-3400 and make your pledge.
[01:30:15.250 --> 01:30:19.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: And maybe you could say it better than me as to why that's important, why there's a call right now.
[01:30:19.930 --> 01:30:25.330]  [SPEAKER_30]: Well, for me, I can just walk right down the hall, and I'm going to do that, and make my pledge for $75.
[01:30:25.330 --> 01:30:27.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, you got one call with that so far, so keep going.
[01:30:27.730 --> 01:30:39.770]  [SPEAKER_30]: And I encourage any other people out there who have gained some knowledge or insight into what we're talking about here to pick up the phone, take out their credit card, give us a call, and make a pledge.
[01:30:39.890 --> 01:30:44.550]  [SPEAKER_30]: And you're not going to get on any... It doesn't sound like you're going to get traced by the FBI for getting our subscription.
[01:30:44.550 --> 01:30:56.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, my way of looking at it, okay, is that... And not everybody shares this, obviously, but we're reaching a period where, you know, the whole Edwin Meese philosophy of, well, you know, if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about.
[01:30:57.850 --> 01:31:00.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we're getting put on lists all the time now.
[01:31:01.230 --> 01:31:09.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if I'm on an FBI list or a Secret Service list or whatever kind of a list, I think the best thing to do is to get as many people on that list as possible.
[01:31:09.430 --> 01:31:12.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not to run away from it, not to be afraid of it, but rather to challenge it.
[01:31:12.450 --> 01:31:18.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: So if the FBI is going around gathering names because people are doing something that they have every right to do, you don't stop doing it.
[01:31:18.610 --> 01:31:19.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't start hiding.
[01:31:19.730 --> 01:31:21.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: You start saying, yeah, so what?
[01:31:21.570 --> 01:31:23.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, and getting all your friends to do it, too.
[01:31:24.050 --> 01:31:28.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not saying that, you know, we should advertise who subscribes to us or anything like that.
[01:31:28.610 --> 01:31:33.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I'm just saying it's not necessarily something that you should be afraid of because you're in the right.
[01:31:33.530 --> 01:31:34.190]  [SPEAKER_30]: Right, absolutely.
[01:31:34.570 --> 01:31:36.690]  [SPEAKER_30]: What you're doing is disseminating information.
[01:31:37.530 --> 01:31:41.310]  [SPEAKER_30]: It's in a text-based format or in a vocal format.
[01:31:41.310 --> 01:31:44.010]  [SPEAKER_30]: And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
[01:31:44.170 --> 01:31:47.490]  [SPEAKER_30]: Information should be free and it should be available to the masses.
[01:31:48.270 --> 01:32:06.030]  [SPEAKER_30]: And some of the information that you put out there is, some people may find a little radical and so forth, but I think that information in and of itself only engenders knowledge and should be free.
[01:32:06.030 --> 01:32:10.610]  [SPEAKER_30]: And the means for distributing it should be unstopped as well.
[01:32:10.750 --> 01:32:20.350]  [SPEAKER_30]: And I really appreciate what this show stands for and, you know, letting people know what's going on out there by means of getting the information out to people.
[01:32:20.570 --> 01:32:22.510]  [SPEAKER_30]: You know, we should always have access to information.
[01:32:22.730 --> 01:32:24.090]  [SPEAKER_30]: It's, you know, if you get a...
[01:32:24.090 --> 01:32:33.490]  [SPEAKER_30]: If you find something on how to build a bomb, that doesn't mean that you should go out and build it and blow people up or anything, but having that information in and of itself is really harmless.
[01:32:33.490 --> 01:32:37.510]  [SPEAKER_30]: It's using it and doing bad things with it that should be avoided.
[01:32:37.710 --> 01:32:44.870]  [SPEAKER_30]: But people should have, you know, the ability to gather any kind of information that they want without being put in any kind of...
[01:32:44.870 --> 01:32:44.870]  Right.
[01:32:44.870 --> 01:32:46.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, the information is out there.
[01:32:46.490 --> 01:32:53.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was at this recent security conference in Washington, D.C., and I kept hearing, you know, the same thing, you know, that we're saying information wants to be free.
[01:32:53.730 --> 01:32:55.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they kept saying, well, my information doesn't want to be free.
[01:32:56.290 --> 01:33:05.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, the hacker response to that is, well, you know, stop... tell your information that, you know, and stop leaking it all over the place and having it publicly available on the net.
[01:33:05.750 --> 01:33:13.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you really want to protect something like we protect our mailing list, encrypt it, store it on an isolated machine, you know, use your brains as far as that particular thing goes.
[01:33:13.990 --> 01:33:24.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: But as far as general disclosure, I think we're in a period now where there's more accountability for what people, what companies are doing.
[01:33:24.850 --> 01:33:29.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you have the means of finding out something, you should share it, you know, share it with other people.
[01:33:29.890 --> 01:33:31.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that's what hackers do for the most part.
[01:33:31.830 --> 01:33:34.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: We find out things, we let people know about it.
[01:33:34.330 --> 01:33:37.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's, of course, why we always get into trouble because we tell people what we find out.
[01:33:38.170 --> 01:33:39.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're not very good criminals.
[01:33:39.370 --> 01:33:43.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't hide it for ourselves and use it for only certain elite people.
[01:33:44.490 --> 01:33:48.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's kind of how the whole thing comes about in the first place.
[01:33:48.570 --> 01:33:59.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, I think one thing that this radio station, that this radio program has shown us is that people who don't consider themselves hackers are very interested in what it is that we're talking about.
[01:33:59.310 --> 01:34:02.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you don't have to be a hacker to appreciate it in the first place.
[01:34:02.930 --> 01:34:09.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some of the information we're able to find out as far as how the phone companies work, what they're up to, what they do, how they deceive people.
[01:34:10.090 --> 01:34:19.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the same goes for other companies as well or the bits of technology, how to use something to your advantage or how something works, even though they don't want you to know how it works.
[01:34:19.510 --> 01:34:22.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we all have curiosity in us somewhere.
[01:34:22.470 --> 01:34:28.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think we all are fighting, you know, and rooting for the little guy against the big system.
[01:34:28.750 --> 01:34:38.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, why else do we always stand up for the individual fighting against, you know, the Kafka-ish societies or, you know, the prisoner-type scenarios or things like that?
[01:34:38.450 --> 01:34:41.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because we feel an identity with that.
[01:34:41.670 --> 01:34:45.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: We want the individual to win in the end.
[01:34:45.410 --> 01:34:50.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think nothing encompasses that more than hackers, what hackers are fighting right now.
[01:34:50.690 --> 01:34:51.130]  [SPEAKER_30]: Right.
[01:34:51.310 --> 01:34:57.370]  [SPEAKER_30]: And furthermore, the information that is disseminated on programs like this is the first to be repressed.
[01:34:57.390 --> 01:35:01.470]  [SPEAKER_30]: And that will set precedence for other types of information.
[01:35:01.470 --> 01:35:05.130]  [SPEAKER_30]: And, you know, if it gets repressed here, then there's really no stopping it.
[01:35:05.190 --> 01:35:06.010]  [SPEAKER_30]: Once they...
[01:35:06.010 --> 01:35:06.350]  [SPEAKER_30]: That's right.
[01:35:06.450 --> 01:35:19.550]  [SPEAKER_30]: Once the governments and companies are able to control information on this level, which is, you know, once they stop information on this level, then who knows to what extent they'll continue repressing information.
[01:35:19.870 --> 01:35:20.010]  [SPEAKER_30]: Right.
[01:35:20.170 --> 01:35:27.490]  [SPEAKER_30]: So it's important to keep putting the word out and, you know, good luck with your magazine.
[01:35:27.630 --> 01:35:28.590]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm going to walk down the hall here.
[01:35:28.730 --> 01:35:28.750]  [SPEAKER_30]: Well, thanks.
[01:35:28.750 --> 01:35:33.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, you'll walk down the hall, yeah, because I think the Talley people are waiting for you right now.
[01:35:33.510 --> 01:35:33.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks.
[01:35:34.250 --> 01:35:36.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, okay, so thank you, Blake, for that generous donation.
[01:35:37.210 --> 01:35:43.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: And again, if you're out there and you're thinking about calling us up, please do, because imagine where we'd be if we didn't have this voice now.
[01:35:43.770 --> 01:35:45.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: We wouldn't know anything about the Bernie S case.
[01:35:45.810 --> 01:35:48.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: We wouldn't even know anything about the fiber optic case last year.
[01:35:48.350 --> 01:35:56.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we wouldn't be able to keep updated on all the other things going on on the Internet, in the electronic society in general.
[01:35:57.070 --> 01:36:01.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot going on, a lot happening, and we provide a unique voice for that.
[01:36:02.630 --> 01:36:05.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400, please give us a call.
[01:36:05.730 --> 01:36:09.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've got operators standing by, and we'll be back right after this.
[01:37:00.240 --> 01:37:03.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll be back.
[01:37:20.660 --> 01:37:23.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we'll be back.
[01:37:23.640 --> 01:37:26.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll be back.
[01:37:26.400 --> 01:37:28.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll be back.
[01:37:28.980 --> 01:37:30.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hanging a hot gun.
[01:37:30.860 --> 01:37:34.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: In between the eyes, the West was one.
[01:37:35.320 --> 01:37:39.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: Black and white and silent, they should wait to fall.
[01:38:11.900 --> 01:38:15.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: A cast of thousands and a view of some.
[01:38:16.580 --> 01:38:20.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: Millions of tickets, the West is one.
[01:38:21.240 --> 01:38:24.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: The legend of teens of town paid blood and star.
[01:38:25.780 --> 01:38:29.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wood from the hanging tree, built a cinema.
[01:38:30.340 --> 01:38:33.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: Black and white and silent, they should
[01:38:45.530 --> 01:38:47.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: wait to the West boy.
[01:38:49.370 --> 01:38:51.670]  [SPEAKER_17]: In a mother here, they look like me.
[01:38:51.910 --> 01:38:53.570]  [SPEAKER_17]: European face, kill off everybody.
[01:38:54.130 --> 01:38:56.010]  [SPEAKER_17]: African Indian with the Apache.
[01:38:56.390 --> 01:38:58.330]  [SPEAKER_17]: Even for the Indian like 80.
[01:38:58.850 --> 01:39:00.650]  [SPEAKER_17]: In a cartoon town, kill off Jerry.
[01:39:01.010 --> 01:39:03.090]  [SPEAKER_17]: A pure black lady, it's all you can see.
[01:39:03.270 --> 01:39:05.290]  [SPEAKER_17]: She look like a male, I think you have to agree.
[01:39:05.630 --> 01:39:07.710]  [SPEAKER_17]: A fire-toe shark, little man's fight me.
[01:39:09.030 --> 01:39:11.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: They should wait to go on.
[01:39:13.290 --> 01:39:15.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot too close to fall.
[01:39:59.010 --> 01:40:03.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's music from Screaming Target, which encompassed one...
[01:40:03.270 --> 01:40:08.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, several members of Big Audio Dynamite who wound up in this band that no one heard of in this country because they didn't get a record contract here.
[01:40:09.030 --> 01:40:13.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we got the CD anyway, and that was a song about making movies and things called Blood and Stars.
[01:40:14.870 --> 01:40:24.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you're listening to a special expanded edition of Off the Hook here on radio station WBAI, where we're still asking for support at 212-279-3400.
[01:40:24.070 --> 01:40:28.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: And just to give you an optimistic outlook, we're doing pretty good.
[01:40:29.170 --> 01:40:33.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're moving forward into the 90s at WBAI.
[01:40:33.370 --> 01:40:35.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're not falling apart.
[01:40:35.970 --> 01:40:37.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're making better radio programs.
[01:40:38.170 --> 01:40:39.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's working.
[01:40:39.310 --> 01:40:39.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's succeeding.
[01:40:39.870 --> 01:40:45.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the only reason it is succeeding is because people like you call us up and help support the station.
[01:40:45.310 --> 01:40:48.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: So don't think that you're throwing money into a losing cause.
[01:40:48.350 --> 01:40:51.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're throwing it into something that's working, something that there's a definite need for.
[01:40:51.690 --> 01:41:02.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: The politics have changed in this country over the past several years to an extent where something like this is essential just for intellectual survival, I guess.
[01:41:02.730 --> 01:41:04.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:41:05.070 --> 01:41:08.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we have a special offer now.
[01:41:08.370 --> 01:41:14.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Roman Kazan of escape.com has stopped by, and he has a special offer for us.
[01:41:14.530 --> 01:41:16.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: First of all, tell us, what is escape?
[01:41:16.210 --> 01:41:17.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the Internet provider.
[01:41:17.950 --> 01:41:18.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Escape?
[01:41:18.290 --> 01:41:19.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, wait, your mic's not on.
[01:41:19.250 --> 01:41:19.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, there you go.
[01:41:19.930 --> 01:41:20.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, okay.
[01:41:20.250 --> 01:41:20.590]  [SPEAKER_29]: There we go.
[01:41:21.090 --> 01:41:25.110]  [SPEAKER_29]: Escape is an Internet access provider that provides complete Internet access in New York City.
[01:41:25.310 --> 01:41:25.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[01:41:25.710 --> 01:41:28.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: And complete Internet access these days is like...
[01:41:28.610 --> 01:41:30.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's basically, what?
[01:41:31.130 --> 01:41:34.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: PPP, slip, dial-up, shell.
[01:41:34.570 --> 01:41:35.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do all those terms mean?
[01:41:36.330 --> 01:41:38.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: What's considered complete these days?
[01:41:38.410 --> 01:41:44.510]  [SPEAKER_29]: Being connected directly to the Internet with a protocol called TCPIP and using any application that's out there.
[01:41:44.610 --> 01:41:49.230]  [SPEAKER_29]: For instance, the famous Netscape, COCME for video conferencing, and so forth.
[01:41:49.230 --> 01:41:50.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, that's really neat.
[01:41:50.550 --> 01:41:56.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: See you, see me, where you actually see somebody in another part of the world, and you can talk to them, and all you're doing is making a local phone call.
[01:41:57.230 --> 01:42:00.870]  [SPEAKER_29]: There's even voice conversations you could have over the Internet with a standard modem.
[01:42:00.870 --> 01:42:01.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: I saw that...
[01:42:01.590 --> 01:42:04.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, I saw that on CBS News, like at 3.30 in the morning.
[01:42:04.470 --> 01:42:06.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were doing a see you, see me conference.
[01:42:06.230 --> 01:42:07.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: It looked really funny.
[01:42:07.230 --> 01:42:11.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: They had five people there, and they were moving kind of slowly, and sometimes they wouldn't move at all.
[01:42:11.350 --> 01:42:18.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then this one guy got frozen, you know, freeze-framed with his mouth open, and then he stayed on there for about 30 seconds, and they just disappeared altogether.
[01:42:18.590 --> 01:42:26.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, it still has some growing pains, but I think this is the part you want to be involved in when it's having these growing pains, when you're helping to develop it.
[01:42:27.130 --> 01:42:31.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: So now, you're offering, for I believe $150, you're offering Internet access, full Internet access.
[01:42:31.930 --> 01:42:33.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Complete Internet access.
[01:42:33.370 --> 01:42:35.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: You even get access to put up your own web page.
[01:42:35.530 --> 01:42:35.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[01:42:36.450 --> 01:42:36.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's cool.
[01:42:37.170 --> 01:42:39.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, everybody has web pages these days.
[01:42:39.110 --> 01:42:44.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's kind of where you, I guess, advertise whatever you are or whatever you want to say.
[01:42:44.250 --> 01:42:44.870]  [SPEAKER_29]: Well, you put up your interest.
[01:42:45.010 --> 01:42:48.250]  [SPEAKER_29]: You want to, you know, basically provide information to other people that you're interested in.
[01:42:48.390 --> 01:42:48.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh-huh.
[01:42:50.010 --> 01:42:52.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so, now we only have a limited number of these, too.
[01:42:52.550 --> 01:42:56.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, I think there's only five total, which isn't very many for the whole city of New York.
[01:42:56.930 --> 01:42:57.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[01:42:57.830 --> 01:43:03.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 for, you'll get full access for six months, unlimited, for $150.
[01:43:04.090 --> 01:43:05.890]  [SPEAKER_29]: We'll send you the software if you have a Macintosh.
[01:43:05.990 --> 01:43:07.570]  [SPEAKER_29]: We'll send you the software if you have a PC.
[01:43:07.970 --> 01:43:08.030]  [SPEAKER_29]: Uh-huh.
[01:43:08.030 --> 01:43:12.410]  [SPEAKER_29]: We'll help you over the phone to configure it, or if you have any problems, we won't get off the phone until you have it working.
[01:43:12.630 --> 01:43:13.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, that's great.
[01:43:13.850 --> 01:43:14.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Usually, it's the other way around.
[01:43:14.950 --> 01:43:18.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Usually, the customer doesn't get off the phone until, but you guys will make sure that things are working.
[01:43:19.130 --> 01:43:21.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you're in the city, we might even come by if you have a problem.
[01:43:21.330 --> 01:43:21.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's amazing.
[01:43:21.890 --> 01:43:22.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: I heard about that.
[01:43:22.670 --> 01:43:23.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's not a rumor.
[01:43:23.290 --> 01:43:24.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: You guys actually sometimes make house calls.
[01:43:24.750 --> 01:43:25.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes we do, yes.
[01:43:26.130 --> 01:43:27.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: When they're really in trouble.
[01:43:27.050 --> 01:43:27.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: If the situation is bad enough.
[01:43:28.330 --> 01:43:31.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: How bad does somebody have to be to get a house call?
[01:43:32.170 --> 01:43:33.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Something that just doesn't work at all?
[01:43:33.790 --> 01:43:34.950]  [SPEAKER_29]: Well, it's unbelievable.
[01:43:35.190 --> 01:43:37.970]  [SPEAKER_29]: Sometimes, we sign up quite a few people a day.
[01:43:38.070 --> 01:43:38.310]  [SPEAKER_29]: Uh-huh.
[01:43:38.590 --> 01:43:42.090]  [SPEAKER_29]: And once in a while, we get someone who's just totally in trouble.
[01:43:42.370 --> 01:43:42.630]  [SPEAKER_29]: Right.
[01:43:42.930 --> 01:43:43.770]  [SPEAKER_29]: The reason is unknown.
[01:43:43.770 --> 01:43:44.210]  [SPEAKER_29]: You can say it.
[01:43:44.250 --> 01:43:45.150]  [SPEAKER_29]: Computer illiterate.
[01:43:45.230 --> 01:43:45.950]  [SPEAKER_29]: They don't know what they're doing.
[01:43:45.950 --> 01:43:46.410]  [SPEAKER_29]: That's exactly right.
[01:43:46.410 --> 01:43:47.790]  [SPEAKER_29]: And we'll come there and show them how to use it.
[01:43:47.790 --> 01:43:48.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's good that you don't berate them.
[01:43:49.050 --> 01:43:51.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: You actually try and help them out.
[01:43:51.030 --> 01:43:57.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you probably are helping someone who no one else would help to get on the net to get started in the first place.
[01:43:57.310 --> 01:43:59.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's really a good thing to be able to do.
[01:43:59.650 --> 01:44:00.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's look at some other services.
[01:44:00.970 --> 01:44:05.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not to put them down too much, but just enough so that people know what we're getting into here.
[01:44:05.990 --> 01:44:07.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've got America Online.
[01:44:07.390 --> 01:44:10.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, a lot of people say, I just want to get an America Online account.
[01:44:10.590 --> 01:44:11.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, why shouldn't they do that?
[01:44:11.950 --> 01:44:14.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it's a good system if you're computer not literate.
[01:44:14.610 --> 01:44:15.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Computer illiterate, yes.
[01:44:15.850 --> 01:44:16.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not literator.
[01:44:16.810 --> 01:44:17.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's incorrect.
[01:44:17.650 --> 01:44:18.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[01:44:18.430 --> 01:44:19.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:44:19.990 --> 01:44:21.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take advantage of this offer.
[01:44:22.070 --> 01:44:22.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's a pricing.
[01:44:23.150 --> 01:44:26.270]  [SPEAKER_29]: You're not able to use any software that's available for the Internet.
[01:44:26.310 --> 01:44:27.490]  [SPEAKER_29]: Basically, it's not a standard.
[01:44:28.010 --> 01:44:31.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I was at a friend's house in California, and he had AOL.
[01:44:31.510 --> 01:44:35.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I figured I'd be able to check my mail in 2600 or Escape or wherever I was.
[01:44:35.310 --> 01:44:35.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they don't have Telnet.
[01:44:35.730 --> 01:44:36.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can't Telnet.
[01:44:36.610 --> 01:44:37.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: They don't have Telnet.
[01:44:37.410 --> 01:44:38.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: I thought they said they were on the Internet.
[01:44:39.250 --> 01:44:42.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they are, but they don't give you full access to them.
[01:44:42.030 --> 01:44:43.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, they certainly don't.
[01:44:43.050 --> 01:44:46.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they don't give you full access to the English language either.
[01:44:46.770 --> 01:44:50.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because you can't use certain words, or they get very angry at you.
[01:44:50.370 --> 01:44:51.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't really use them here either, can I?
[01:44:51.990 --> 01:44:54.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, you can use them on the radio, because that's an FCC thing.
[01:44:54.150 --> 01:44:55.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we don't get into that.
[01:44:55.870 --> 01:44:56.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, okay.
[01:44:58.010 --> 01:45:05.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Basically, America Online, I think one of the moderators said, if you don't hear it on Saturday morning cartoons, then don't use it here.
[01:45:06.010 --> 01:45:06.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[01:45:06.410 --> 01:45:09.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's how they guide your freedom of speech there.
[01:45:09.890 --> 01:45:11.750]  [SPEAKER_29]: Yeah, at ESCAPE, we don't censor anyone, period.
[01:45:12.070 --> 01:45:13.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you have access to everything?
[01:45:13.370 --> 01:45:14.810]  [SPEAKER_29]: Everything and everything on the Internet.
[01:45:15.050 --> 01:45:15.770]  [SPEAKER_29]: There's no buzz rates.
[01:45:15.810 --> 01:45:15.870]  [SPEAKER_29]: That's great.
[01:45:16.270 --> 01:45:17.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's really great.
[01:45:17.410 --> 01:45:19.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: I remember, how long have you been around for?
[01:45:19.270 --> 01:45:19.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: About a year and a half?
[01:45:20.170 --> 01:45:20.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Almost two years now.
[01:45:21.030 --> 01:45:21.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Almost two years.
[01:45:21.590 --> 01:45:25.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: I remember when you first got started, and it's really grown quite a bit since then.
[01:45:25.190 --> 01:45:29.770]  [SPEAKER_29]: Right, we're about to open up Long Island numbers in about a few weeks.
[01:45:29.930 --> 01:45:30.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[01:45:30.630 --> 01:45:34.590]  [SPEAKER_29]: And if you're located in Long Island and listening to the show, you'll have local dial-ups available.
[01:45:34.730 --> 01:45:35.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is Nassau County?
[01:45:35.670 --> 01:45:36.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nassau County.
[01:45:36.390 --> 01:45:36.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, great.
[01:45:37.450 --> 01:45:38.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:45:38.690 --> 01:45:42.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take advantage of this offer because it really is a really good offer.
[01:45:42.310 --> 01:45:43.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think you're going to be able to beat this.
[01:45:43.830 --> 01:45:45.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Six months unlimited access.
[01:45:46.130 --> 01:45:53.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can call up tomorrow after making your pledge, or whenever it is it gets processed, and stay online 24 hours a day for six months, right?
[01:45:53.790 --> 01:45:54.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, theoretically, you could do that.
[01:45:55.090 --> 01:45:56.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Technically you can, but be kind.
[01:45:56.310 --> 01:45:56.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, I'm just kidding.
[01:45:57.650 --> 01:46:00.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll kill some bandwidth, but there's no limit.
[01:46:00.630 --> 01:46:04.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't keep track of how people...
[01:46:04.450 --> 01:46:05.850]  [SPEAKER_29]: I don't know how much anyone uses.
[01:46:06.170 --> 01:46:06.490]  [SPEAKER_29]: Uh-huh.
[01:46:06.590 --> 01:46:07.310]  [SPEAKER_29]: I don't want to know.
[01:46:07.770 --> 01:46:08.250]  [SPEAKER_29]: That's good.
[01:46:08.330 --> 01:46:09.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't want to know how much they use.
[01:46:09.870 --> 01:46:12.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't want to know what they're doing, what they're saying, who they're talking to.
[01:46:13.030 --> 01:46:13.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly.
[01:46:13.770 --> 01:46:15.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I wish everyone had that view.
[01:46:15.750 --> 01:46:22.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: I wish there wasn't this big brother over your shoulder type of mentality that a lot of people seem to feel the need to have when they're running a system.
[01:46:23.490 --> 01:46:25.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: How about other systems, CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi?
[01:46:25.430 --> 01:46:29.970]  [SPEAKER_29]: I mean, they may connect to other systems on the Internet, and you don't know what they're doing over there then.
[01:46:30.330 --> 01:46:31.390]  [SPEAKER_29]: It's out of my control.
[01:46:31.530 --> 01:46:31.710]  [SPEAKER_29]: Right.
[01:46:32.150 --> 01:46:37.090]  [SPEAKER_29]: But as far as they're using Escape, as far as we know, if we're not hacked, no one can see what you're doing.
[01:46:37.750 --> 01:46:45.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, the only thing you'd be concerned of is if your users are being hacked themselves, if their privacy is being invaded, which is always a possibility no matter what system you're on.
[01:46:45.310 --> 01:46:48.090]  [SPEAKER_29]: Yeah, when you're on the Internet, you should consider that you're like on a cellular phone.
[01:46:48.290 --> 01:46:48.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[01:46:49.030 --> 01:46:50.490]  [SPEAKER_29]: Not quite that bad, is it?
[01:46:50.490 --> 01:46:52.590]  [SPEAKER_29]: Well, not quite that bad, but close to it, I would say.
[01:46:53.550 --> 01:46:56.630]  [SPEAKER_29]: You shouldn't be throwing your credit cards everywhere.
[01:46:56.970 --> 01:46:58.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, definitely do not do that.
[01:46:59.090 --> 01:47:01.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: But tell us about the other systems, like CompuServe, Delphi.
[01:47:01.850 --> 01:47:03.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, are they any better than AOL?
[01:47:06.310 --> 01:47:07.290]  [SPEAKER_29]: Delphi is text-based.
[01:47:07.390 --> 01:47:07.650]  [SPEAKER_29]: I don't know.
[01:47:07.750 --> 01:47:09.950]  [SPEAKER_29]: I just heard they released a graphical interface.
[01:47:10.130 --> 01:47:10.370]  [SPEAKER_29]: Uh-huh.
[01:47:10.650 --> 01:47:12.350]  [SPEAKER_29]: But then again, they also charge an hourly rate.
[01:47:12.530 --> 01:47:14.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't understand how they can charge hourly rates.
[01:47:14.910 --> 01:47:20.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, we've reached a stage where virtually all systems have a set fee.
[01:47:21.350 --> 01:47:24.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I think that really makes a difference.
[01:47:24.450 --> 01:47:24.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[01:47:24.790 --> 01:47:25.990]  [SPEAKER_29]: It's flat over here.
[01:47:26.590 --> 01:47:28.130]  [SPEAKER_29]: You can use as much as you like.
[01:47:28.270 --> 01:47:28.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[01:47:28.610 --> 01:47:34.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I think all the lines are lit up, so there's a fair chance we'll find out if there's any of these left.
[01:47:34.470 --> 01:47:34.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[01:47:34.710 --> 01:47:38.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: So thanks very much for offering this to us and for supporting the radio station.
[01:47:39.030 --> 01:47:42.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: If people want to contact your system directly, how would they do so?
[01:47:42.450 --> 01:47:49.670]  [SPEAKER_29]: They can reach ESCAPE at area code 212, telephone number 888-8780, between 10 and 6 p.m.
[01:47:49.690 --> 01:47:50.330]  [SPEAKER_29]: Monday through Friday.
[01:47:50.450 --> 01:47:51.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's voice, right?
[01:47:51.250 --> 01:47:51.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's voice.
[01:47:52.070 --> 01:47:57.190]  [SPEAKER_29]: Data is 212-888-8212, and you can log in as guest.
[01:47:57.430 --> 01:47:58.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a great phone number.
[01:47:59.230 --> 01:48:00.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: It reads the same forward as backwards.
[01:48:01.130 --> 01:48:01.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[01:48:02.470 --> 01:48:03.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do they call those things?
[01:48:03.630 --> 01:48:04.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a polygram.
[01:48:04.650 --> 01:48:05.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: For me, it was a lucky number.
[01:48:05.690 --> 01:48:06.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't ask for it.
[01:48:06.530 --> 01:48:07.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: A palindrome, yeah.
[01:48:07.730 --> 01:48:08.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: I knew that.
[01:48:09.130 --> 01:48:09.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a good thing of the word.
[01:48:10.790 --> 01:48:11.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, great.
[01:48:11.490 --> 01:48:14.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, good luck with ESCAPE, and I'm sure we'll be in touch in the future.
[01:48:15.670 --> 01:48:17.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, it's 10 minutes to 11 o'clock.
[01:48:17.530 --> 01:48:18.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please keep those calls coming in.
[01:48:18.870 --> 01:48:20.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:48:20.390 --> 01:48:25.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: I believe all our lines are tied up right now, so if you get a busy signal, keep trying.
[01:48:25.350 --> 01:48:26.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's good if you get a busy signal.
[01:48:26.870 --> 01:48:28.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it's usually good.
[01:48:28.250 --> 01:48:31.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Either our phone lines are broken, or it means a lot of people are calling and pledging.
[01:48:33.070 --> 01:48:38.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: No other place where you hear information like this, where you get technical expertise like you do here.
[01:48:39.650 --> 01:48:40.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, Blake, you're back.
[01:48:40.870 --> 01:48:42.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: How did the pledging go?
[01:48:42.830 --> 01:48:43.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Were they nice to you?
[01:48:44.050 --> 01:48:44.910]  [SPEAKER_30]: They were very nice.
[01:48:45.050 --> 01:48:47.690]  [SPEAKER_30]: They're going to send me a bill.
[01:48:47.810 --> 01:48:53.590]  [SPEAKER_30]: I couldn't actually pay for it up front, but I will be receiving a bill in five days or so.
[01:48:53.830 --> 01:48:53.950]  [SPEAKER_30]: Okay.
[01:48:54.650 --> 01:48:56.810]  [SPEAKER_30]: But as of this moment, I'm on the subscription list.
[01:48:56.830 --> 01:48:57.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, they took you a credit card, didn't they?
[01:48:59.270 --> 01:49:00.890]  [SPEAKER_30]: Actually, like I said, they're going to send me a bill.
[01:49:01.050 --> 01:49:01.270]  [SPEAKER_30]: Okay.
[01:49:01.270 --> 01:49:03.190]  [SPEAKER_30]: So they didn't take any billing information.
[01:49:04.050 --> 01:49:06.170]  [SPEAKER_30]: I was ready to just sign them a check right there.
[01:49:06.230 --> 01:49:06.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, you want to do a check.
[01:49:06.890 --> 01:49:06.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[01:49:07.050 --> 01:49:09.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you did a check thing, they'll send you a bill.
[01:49:09.290 --> 01:49:09.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's how that works.
[01:49:09.870 --> 01:49:10.170]  [SPEAKER_30]: Actually, no.
[01:49:10.250 --> 01:49:14.650]  [SPEAKER_30]: I said, you know, they wanted to...
[01:49:14.650 --> 01:49:19.130]  [SPEAKER_30]: I couldn't pay for a check right now, nor could I get my t-shirt right now, which I was a little disappointed.
[01:49:19.130 --> 01:49:20.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they're not here yet.
[01:49:20.150 --> 01:49:20.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, okay.
[01:49:20.690 --> 01:49:23.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: But they're coming, and we'll have them in about a week or so.
[01:49:23.690 --> 01:49:27.550]  [SPEAKER_30]: But I look forward to seeing that in however long it takes to get me a t-shirt.
[01:49:27.690 --> 01:49:27.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[01:49:28.130 --> 01:49:35.330]  [SPEAKER_30]: And it does feel good knowing that my donation will continue with this show.
[01:49:35.450 --> 01:49:35.730]  [SPEAKER_30]: Oh, yeah.
[01:49:35.730 --> 01:49:36.130]  [SPEAKER_30]: It'll help continue.
[01:49:36.250 --> 01:49:38.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'll shake your hand after the show personally, in fact.
[01:49:38.510 --> 01:49:38.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.
[01:49:39.010 --> 01:49:40.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sure that'll make you feel good.
[01:49:40.550 --> 01:49:43.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: And also, the process was not painful.
[01:49:43.970 --> 01:49:44.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nobody yelled at you.
[01:49:44.790 --> 01:49:45.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were polite.
[01:49:45.730 --> 01:49:46.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were nice.
[01:49:46.410 --> 01:49:49.670]  [SPEAKER_30]: They were very happy to have a live donor.
[01:49:49.670 --> 01:49:50.110]  [SPEAKER_30]: Uh-huh.
[01:49:50.350 --> 01:49:52.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they'll be very happy to have people over the phone, too.
[01:49:52.570 --> 01:49:55.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: So if you call up, you'll talk to one of these nice people who are...
[01:49:55.530 --> 01:49:57.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: I guess basically they're listeners, right?
[01:49:57.890 --> 01:49:59.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're listeners that volunteer their time.
[01:49:59.430 --> 01:49:59.630]  [SPEAKER_30]: Right.
[01:49:59.690 --> 01:50:11.630]  [SPEAKER_30]: It made me feel good, and, you know, because I like this show, I listen to it, and I think everybody who listens to this show should lend a helping hand just to ensure that we will continue hearing this programming here.
[01:50:11.870 --> 01:50:12.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[01:50:13.010 --> 01:50:13.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[01:50:13.510 --> 01:50:19.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, coming up on the hour, we'll be talking a little bit more about the film Hackers and perhaps taking some phone calls as well.
[01:50:19.730 --> 01:50:25.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: But please keep the phone calls coming in up until 11, so that we can start off on a very good note.
[01:50:26.010 --> 01:50:27.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: We want to break 2,000 by then.
[01:50:27.570 --> 01:50:29.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're up to 1855 right now.
[01:50:30.370 --> 01:50:36.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: So if we're able to top the 2,000 mark by 11, we'll take some phone calls and get some feedback on the Hackers film.
[01:50:36.210 --> 01:50:38.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:50:38.550 --> 01:50:46.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, the two standing offers are for $75.
[01:50:46.790 --> 01:50:54.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can get a 2,600 T-shirt with Michelangelo virus and a full year subscription to the Hackers quarterly, 2,600.
[01:50:55.410 --> 01:51:04.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: For $150, you can get a copy, both of those things, the t-shirt and the subscription, as well as a copy of the videotape, which we played excerpts of before.
[01:51:04.630 --> 01:51:20.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was a videotape that featured the writer of the Film Hackers, the director and the producer of the Film Hackers, as well as Wynne Schwartow, author of Terminal Compromise and Information Warfare, and writers from Harper's and The Village Voice.
[01:51:20.830 --> 01:51:25.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: All of that in a 90-minute video, which was taped last year.
[01:51:25.390 --> 01:51:27.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it provides some really interesting historical perspective.
[01:51:27.790 --> 01:51:31.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's for a pledge of $150, you get that video, the subscription, and the t-shirt.
[01:51:31.750 --> 01:51:33.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:51:33.510 --> 01:51:43.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, remember, the most important thing is that you're supporting the show, you're supporting the station, you're keeping us going, and I don't think anything really matters as much as that.
[01:51:43.030 --> 01:51:46.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Even if you just pledge $25, that's nothing to be ashamed of.
[01:51:46.230 --> 01:51:46.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's great.
[01:51:46.870 --> 01:51:47.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: That helps us.
[01:51:48.030 --> 01:51:56.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we'll send you the program guide for the radio station so you can find all kinds of other programs that might be interesting to you, or so that you know what programs to avoid.
[01:51:57.090 --> 01:51:58.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's all up to you.
[01:51:58.550 --> 01:52:00.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:52:00.810 --> 01:52:03.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we'll be back in just a couple of minutes.
[01:53:05.550 --> 01:53:10.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: This special announcement, we still have two Internet accounts left.
[01:53:10.270 --> 01:53:14.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: So if we inadvertently said that we gave them all away, we have two left.
[01:53:14.090 --> 01:53:19.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: As for a pledge of $150, you can get six months, unlimited access to the Internet.
[01:53:20.090 --> 01:53:25.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: As for a pledge of $150, 212-279-3400.
[01:56:08.720 --> 01:56:15.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be back after 11 o'clock with some call-in segments for people interested in talking about the film hackers.
[01:56:15.380 --> 01:56:20.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Our number for the call-in is 212-279-3407.
[01:56:21.160 --> 01:56:26.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please continue to call and pledge support to the station at 212-279-3400.
[01:56:26.580 --> 01:56:29.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that we can keep going with this extended version of Off the Hook.
[01:56:31.580 --> 01:56:33.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: With minimal begging, hopefully.
[01:56:35.000 --> 01:56:35.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's up to you.
[01:56:36.020 --> 01:56:39.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, ask about our special $75 and $150 packages.
[01:56:39.680 --> 01:56:41.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: But any pledge is welcome.
[01:56:41.300 --> 01:56:42.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we have other things as well.
[01:56:42.700 --> 01:56:45.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Call 212-279-3400.
[01:56:46.040 --> 01:56:58.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Remember, there's no other radio station that will have this kind of show, that will have this kind of information, and that will give listeners the voice to air the kinds of things that they air here on WBAI.
[01:56:59.060 --> 01:57:01.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:57:01.000 --> 01:57:01.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please call now.
[01:57:17.630 --> 01:57:18.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212-279-3400.
[01:57:18.310 --> 01:57:19.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is the word D salon.
[01:57:39.720 --> 01:57:40.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: 312-279-3400.
[01:57:40.400 --> 01:57:41.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can also grow theerald-based bond of the firm.
[01:57:41.940 --> 01:57:42.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can still with a golden ox.
[01:57:42.860 --> 01:57:43.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: To live in WBAI.
[01:57:46.580 --> 01:57:52.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: anderen places, you can still see if theriet Cuando did war.
[01:59:01.410 --> 01:59:01.490]  This is the first sentence.
[01:59:01.490 --> 01:59:01.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this is the first sentence.
[01:59:57.800 --> 01:59:57.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:00:32.210 --> 02:00:32.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:00:33.250 --> 02:00:34.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, I don't know what's wrong here.
[02:00:34.710 --> 02:00:36.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: This never happened before.
[02:00:37.190 --> 02:00:39.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: And maybe the Internet is saturated.
[02:00:39.250 --> 02:00:41.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe people have no interest in it.
[02:00:42.150 --> 02:00:45.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, I mean, we gave away those first three, like, immediately.
[02:00:45.670 --> 02:00:46.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Like, right away.
[02:00:46.310 --> 02:00:47.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: But there's two left still.
[02:00:47.810 --> 02:00:56.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I figured when I said there were two six-month Internet access, unlimited, you know, time, and all that kind of thing, that they'd go immediately.
[02:00:56.770 --> 02:00:57.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: But they didn't.
[02:00:57.930 --> 02:00:59.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Something weird's going on here.
[02:00:59.090 --> 02:01:00.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, you can't beat this deal.
[02:01:00.390 --> 02:01:01.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: You just can't do it.
[02:01:01.710 --> 02:01:05.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Six months, unlimited access, unlimited time.
[02:01:06.090 --> 02:01:12.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, of course, you have to be in New York in the 212-718 area code to take advantage of the local dial-ups.
[02:01:12.870 --> 02:01:15.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Except for Nassau County, which is coming in about a month or so.
[02:01:17.250 --> 02:01:20.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: For $150, you get six months, unlimited access to escape.com.
[02:01:21.010 --> 02:01:23.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, I don't know.
[02:01:23.870 --> 02:01:25.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[02:01:27.150 --> 02:01:27.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's weird.
[02:01:27.550 --> 02:01:28.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's baffling.
[02:01:28.250 --> 02:01:33.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's like we're giving away free money almost, and people have to call and take advantage of this.
[02:01:33.870 --> 02:01:34.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's the Internet.
[02:01:34.790 --> 02:01:35.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's full net access.
[02:01:35.510 --> 02:01:43.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not like AOL or CompuServe or Delphi or Genie or any of those places, because we don't charge by the minute.
[02:01:44.030 --> 02:01:45.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, I'm saying we.
[02:01:45.270 --> 02:01:47.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: When I say... I'm not part of this, am I?
[02:01:48.130 --> 02:01:53.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: I keep saying because I guess we're all a team as far as this goes when we pool our resources.
[02:01:53.030 --> 02:01:56.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Roman coming in here and offering this, I don't know.
[02:01:56.250 --> 02:01:59.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: I guess I feel like a team, so I have no connection myself.
[02:01:59.450 --> 02:02:16.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: But anyway, they are offering this completely without restriction, without censorship, without any kind of, I guess, mandate as to what you can and cannot say or what groups you can read or who you can mail to or things like that.
[02:02:16.890 --> 02:02:18.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, please, take advantage of it.
[02:02:18.670 --> 02:02:20.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[02:02:20.310 --> 02:02:25.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think, you know, you'll find it to be well worthwhile.
[02:02:25.430 --> 02:02:34.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you already have an account somewhere else, it might be a good idea to start looking at alternatives, because maybe you don't have the entire net at your disposal.
[02:02:34.690 --> 02:02:37.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, maybe you just have a fraction of it.
[02:02:38.630 --> 02:02:41.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, that's as far as that goes.
[02:02:41.770 --> 02:02:47.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Also, for a different $150 pledge, you can get the Hacker Package, is what we're calling it.
[02:02:47.490 --> 02:03:04.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that seems to be pretty popular tonight, and we're offering, I guess, an unlimited number of those, where basically you'll get the Hacker Video, which is 90 minutes of people, various journalists, talking about hacking issues and how hackers can present themselves better and how they've portrayed them in the past.
[02:03:05.770 --> 02:03:22.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll see writers from The Village Voice, Harper's, as well as Wynne Schwartow, an author, and the writers of Hackers, writers, directors, and producers of Hackers, the film, which we're going to be talking about in just a minute or so at 212-279-3407.
[02:03:23.830 --> 02:03:24.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you see the film?
[02:03:24.770 --> 02:03:25.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you like the film?
[02:03:25.730 --> 02:03:26.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Et cetera, et cetera.
[02:03:27.670 --> 02:03:31.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: And for a pledge of $75, you'll get the Hacker Video...
[02:03:31.710 --> 02:03:32.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, you won't get the Hacker Video.
[02:03:32.930 --> 02:03:38.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll get the Hacker T-shirt with the Michelangelo virus on it, as well as a subscription to the magazine.
[02:03:38.710 --> 02:03:39.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, I'm in error, too.
[02:03:39.870 --> 02:03:41.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: The $150 pledge...
[02:03:41.590 --> 02:03:42.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, boy.
[02:03:42.430 --> 02:03:43.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just can't keep track of all this.
[02:03:43.610 --> 02:03:47.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: The $150 pledge gets you the video, the subscription, and the T-shirt as well.
[02:03:47.330 --> 02:03:48.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just call, okay?
[02:03:48.550 --> 02:03:49.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just call the number and ask them.
[02:03:50.030 --> 02:03:50.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: They know it better than me.
[02:03:50.770 --> 02:03:52.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[02:03:52.670 --> 02:03:54.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: I could never be on Home Shopping Network.
[02:03:54.630 --> 02:03:55.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know that right now.
[02:03:56.270 --> 02:03:57.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: But then again, I don't want to be.
[02:03:57.870 --> 02:03:59.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[02:03:59.850 --> 02:04:01.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's get those phone lines lit.
[02:04:02.570 --> 02:04:07.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the news tonight is not on, obviously, as we're doing an extended show.
[02:04:08.430 --> 02:04:13.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're doing an extended show because this is a special time where we're asking for listener support.
[02:04:13.330 --> 02:04:14.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[02:04:15.930 --> 02:04:17.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Also, Off the Hook will be moving...
[02:04:17.870 --> 02:04:18.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not next week.
[02:04:18.910 --> 02:04:20.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Next week will be our last show.
[02:04:20.130 --> 02:04:21.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: From 10 to 11 on Wednesday.
[02:04:21.510 --> 02:04:24.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be moving to Tuesday nights at 8 p.m.
[02:04:24.490 --> 02:04:25.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's starting October 3rd.
[02:04:26.590 --> 02:04:28.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, that's a pretty important bit of news.
[02:04:29.290 --> 02:04:32.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll also update people on the Bernie S situation in about 20 minutes or so.
[02:04:33.110 --> 02:04:37.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, if you have people that you want to hear the update, let them know now.
[02:04:37.810 --> 02:04:39.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: That way we don't have to keep repeating it throughout the night.
[02:04:40.170 --> 02:04:41.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we'll have an update on that situation.
[02:04:43.230 --> 02:04:52.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3407 is the number if you want to call in now and air your opinion as far as the film hackers.
[02:04:52.150 --> 02:04:52.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.
[02:04:54.250 --> 02:04:55.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: I thought it was okay.
[02:04:55.770 --> 02:05:00.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I know a lot of people on the Internet are giving it a thumbs down.
[02:05:01.870 --> 02:05:06.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, I think it wasn't as bad as a lot of people seem to say it was.
[02:05:07.330 --> 02:05:10.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, I'd like to have people air their opinion of it first.
[02:05:10.770 --> 02:05:12.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then I'll give you my opinion.
[02:05:12.290 --> 02:05:12.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:05:13.030 --> 02:05:14.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3407.
[02:05:15.390 --> 02:05:16.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you see the film?
[02:05:16.590 --> 02:05:17.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you like the film?
[02:05:18.030 --> 02:05:18.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Et cetera.
[02:05:19.290 --> 02:05:20.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on.
[02:05:22.130 --> 02:05:23.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on.
[02:05:23.570 --> 02:05:23.850]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yes.
[02:05:24.010 --> 02:05:25.030]  [SPEAKER_22]: Hey, Emmanuel, it's Joker.
[02:05:25.070 --> 02:05:25.570]  [SPEAKER_22]: What's going on?
[02:05:25.690 --> 02:05:26.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, Joker, what's up?
[02:05:26.930 --> 02:05:28.570]  [SPEAKER_22]: Nada, just hanging out.
[02:05:28.770 --> 02:05:29.510]  [SPEAKER_22]: Had a late rehearsal.
[02:05:29.890 --> 02:05:32.770]  [SPEAKER_22]: I heard you were going to be talking about hackers, so I thought I'd give you guys a call.
[02:05:33.810 --> 02:05:34.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:05:34.390 --> 02:05:34.710]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay.
[02:05:35.170 --> 02:05:37.870]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, I mean, the first thing you said, a lot of people on the network are trashing it.
[02:05:37.990 --> 02:05:40.650]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, and I've seen a lot of people trashing it.
[02:05:40.750 --> 02:05:44.550]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, you know, it's mostly these so-called hackers on the net who are trashing it.
[02:05:44.670 --> 02:05:44.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh-huh.
[02:05:45.170 --> 02:05:48.570]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I think everybody has to realize that it wasn't really made for us.
[02:05:48.590 --> 02:05:53.070]  [SPEAKER_22]: It was made to entertain people, which most movies are.
[02:05:53.470 --> 02:05:57.830]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, any movie about a subculture is going to have flaws in it to people in that subculture.
[02:05:58.310 --> 02:06:03.770]  [SPEAKER_22]: So I think if people just take a step back and take it for what it is, a film, I think it's very entertaining.
[02:06:03.770 --> 02:06:05.610]  [SPEAKER_22]: I think the actors did a good job in their roles.
[02:06:05.770 --> 02:06:12.430]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I think it's about the most accurate thing we've seen, you know, so far from Hollywood.
[02:06:12.710 --> 02:06:15.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now, of course, accuracy is the big sticking point with a lot of people.
[02:06:15.990 --> 02:06:32.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: But as far as I agree with you, the actors, I think, were really good as far as the lesser hackers, you know, the Joey and Lord Nikon and those other guys.
[02:06:32.810 --> 02:06:37.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of course, the serial killer slash Emmanuel Goldstein character was hilarious.
[02:06:38.450 --> 02:06:39.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Brighteningly close.
[02:06:39.450 --> 02:06:40.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I guess so.
[02:06:41.190 --> 02:06:48.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: These people really made me laugh, and I think they captured the spirit of what hackers are, kind of like a wacky, zany crowd of people.
[02:06:48.950 --> 02:06:50.870]  [SPEAKER_22]: And you say the... I agree with that.
[02:06:50.970 --> 02:06:53.730]  [SPEAKER_22]: Now, you say the under characters and the lower characters.
[02:06:53.730 --> 02:06:55.770]  [SPEAKER_22]: What did you think of the leads of the film?
[02:06:56.070 --> 02:07:02.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, the leads were okay, but to be honest, I don't... I didn't... I think the lesser characters really stole the show.
[02:07:02.530 --> 02:07:03.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I think...
[02:07:03.150 --> 02:07:04.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: They weren't as interesting to me, you know.
[02:07:05.010 --> 02:07:17.370]  [SPEAKER_22]: I think in a lot of cases, in a lot of movies, you have that... you have the character actors, as opposed to, you know, the two leads who, I think, played more this hard edge than, you know, the fun of hacking or whatever.
[02:07:17.410 --> 02:07:17.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:07:17.910 --> 02:07:20.590]  [SPEAKER_22]: I think they were both sitting there trying to be badasses in their own way.
[02:07:20.590 --> 02:07:21.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, exactly.
[02:07:21.230 --> 02:07:22.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were just kind of sulking the whole time.
[02:07:22.530 --> 02:07:26.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: But Fisher Stevens, I thought, was really good as the villain.
[02:07:26.330 --> 02:07:27.930]  [SPEAKER_22]: Stevens is always good in whatever he does.
[02:07:28.050 --> 02:07:28.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: He was very evil.
[02:07:29.070 --> 02:07:31.890]  [SPEAKER_22]: And just very calm and funny at times.
[02:07:32.070 --> 02:07:35.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think, you know, if this film is guilty of anything, it's guilty of trying to do too much in too short a period of time.
[02:07:36.030 --> 02:07:37.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: There was a lot going on there.
[02:07:37.470 --> 02:07:40.970]  [SPEAKER_22]: Apparently, you may want to tell your listeners about, you know, some of the stuff that was cut out.
[02:07:41.350 --> 02:07:46.810]  [SPEAKER_22]: If any of you have read the book, I read the book after I saw the movie just because I wanted to see, you know, what the differences were.
[02:07:47.510 --> 02:08:00.230]  [SPEAKER_22]: And there's a really, really cool scene that I think would have developed the relationship between Dade and the Plague a little bit more is the scene where he changes the virus when it's on screen.
[02:08:00.510 --> 02:08:00.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:08:00.890 --> 02:08:03.210]  [SPEAKER_22]: That you said they filmed, but they cut out of the movie.
[02:08:03.350 --> 02:08:08.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, yeah, there was a scene where the Plague, the evil hacker guy...
[02:08:08.750 --> 02:08:09.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Darkseid hacker.
[02:08:09.650 --> 02:08:12.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, actually, he's the establishment in the film.
[02:08:13.070 --> 02:08:15.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we know him as Darkseid because he's cheating his company.
[02:08:16.210 --> 02:08:16.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:08:16.350 --> 02:08:23.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: He comes to Dade, the protagonist, and shows him the virus that he wrote when he was 11 years old.
[02:08:23.870 --> 02:08:27.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: And in front of him changes, I think, a greater-than sign to a less-than sign.
[02:08:27.770 --> 02:08:28.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Something like that.
[02:08:28.330 --> 02:08:29.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Dade is astonished.
[02:08:29.310 --> 02:08:30.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: He says, oh, yeah, of course.
[02:08:30.630 --> 02:08:31.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: It won't work because of that.
[02:08:32.010 --> 02:08:32.230]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right.
[02:08:33.150 --> 02:08:34.470]  [SPEAKER_22]: But, no, there were some...
[02:08:34.470 --> 02:08:37.130]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, there were some really enlightening parts.
[02:08:37.310 --> 02:08:45.670]  [SPEAKER_22]: I think, just as in the net, Apple's got product placement, which is really funny because Apple, you know, Macintoshes get the big thumbs down from Mac.
[02:08:46.150 --> 02:08:50.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but, you know, the thing is, Macintosh supplies all the films with computers, and that's why you see them everywhere.
[02:08:51.130 --> 02:08:52.130]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's called product placement.
[02:08:52.310 --> 02:08:53.810]  [SPEAKER_22]: Coke has the same thing in this movie.
[02:08:53.970 --> 02:08:54.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know.
[02:08:54.410 --> 02:08:55.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's unfortunate.
[02:08:55.390 --> 02:08:56.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, it's weird.
[02:08:56.170 --> 02:09:00.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Coke has a lot of product placement, but so does Jolt.
[02:09:01.390 --> 02:09:01.710]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah.
[02:09:02.030 --> 02:09:02.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was weird.
[02:09:02.810 --> 02:09:08.510]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, but I think Jolt was written into the script, and so they had to go to them and say, hi, can we use it?
[02:09:08.510 --> 02:09:14.970]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I'm sure Coke said, hi, when you're doing this film, here's a billion dollars, and here's some Coke for everybody on the set.
[02:09:15.190 --> 02:09:15.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:09:15.730 --> 02:09:20.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I mean, that's something that's inherent to the movie industry, but I think it kind of stinks that it works that way.
[02:09:20.270 --> 02:09:23.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: I want to see a film where you see both a Coke and a Pepsi can in the same film.
[02:09:24.250 --> 02:09:24.530]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right.
[02:09:24.650 --> 02:09:26.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, that's really what I'd like to see.
[02:09:26.730 --> 02:09:26.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:09:26.830 --> 02:09:30.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because then you know that it's not, you know, it's not going to be biased one way or another.
[02:09:31.190 --> 02:09:38.150]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, I think the one thing that does need to be mentioned, even for the people that haven't seen it, is the use of our favorite word.
[02:09:38.510 --> 02:09:39.210]  [SPEAKER_22]: in the film.
[02:09:39.610 --> 02:09:40.810]  [SPEAKER_22]: And that's elite.
[02:09:41.170 --> 02:09:41.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, boy.
[02:09:41.930 --> 02:09:43.910]  [SPEAKER_22]: Oh, man, this was hilarious.
[02:09:44.050 --> 02:09:50.370]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, I'm not going to go too much into detail for those who haven't seen it, but they blow this word way out of proportion.
[02:09:51.030 --> 02:09:52.970]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, that was just funny.
[02:09:53.130 --> 02:09:58.030]  [SPEAKER_22]: Some of the dialogue was a little over the top, I think.
[02:09:58.270 --> 02:10:00.750]  [SPEAKER_22]: Just a little on the cheesy side.
[02:10:01.430 --> 02:10:02.430]  [SPEAKER_22]: But that's to us.
[02:10:02.550 --> 02:10:05.190]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, people who are, you know, going to see the movie.
[02:10:05.310 --> 02:10:07.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you see, that's why I'm really curious about people who are not hackers.
[02:10:08.130 --> 02:10:12.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Like, if non-computer hackers out there could call us and tell us what they thought of the film, and, you know...
[02:10:12.990 --> 02:10:31.590]  [SPEAKER_22]: I'll tell you, it was really odd, because I was sitting on the net the night after, you know, Friday night late slash Saturday morning on IRC, on Pound Hack, and I was sitting there talking to friends, and all of a sudden the channel just got flooded with all these people that,
[02:10:31.590 --> 02:10:34.050]  [SPEAKER_22]: you know, none of the people who have been there for a while had ever seen before.
[02:10:34.210 --> 02:10:35.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: They just discovered hackers, huh?
[02:10:35.790 --> 02:10:36.090]  [SPEAKER_22]: Hi!
[02:10:36.210 --> 02:10:36.870]  [SPEAKER_22]: How are you guys doing?
[02:10:36.870 --> 02:10:38.850]  [SPEAKER_22]: I just saw the film, and it was really great.
[02:10:38.930 --> 02:10:40.250]  [SPEAKER_22]: I wanted to know what was going on.
[02:10:40.250 --> 02:10:44.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, there's a channel now that has quite a lot of traffic going through it.
[02:10:44.250 --> 02:10:45.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's Pound Hackers.
[02:10:45.510 --> 02:10:46.470]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, I saw that one.
[02:10:46.530 --> 02:10:48.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: There are people who just see the film and...
[02:10:48.210 --> 02:10:49.810]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right, and there's Pound Hacking, too.
[02:10:49.970 --> 02:10:50.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.
[02:10:50.570 --> 02:10:51.730]  [SPEAKER_22]: But I don't know.
[02:10:51.790 --> 02:10:54.230]  [SPEAKER_22]: I guess part of it's good and part of it's bad.
[02:10:54.350 --> 02:10:57.870]  [SPEAKER_22]: You know, we've kind of remained out of the light, I guess, a bit.
[02:10:57.950 --> 02:11:04.610]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I think you more than anybody is probably going to feel a lot more media attention toward, you know, what we're involved in.
[02:11:04.710 --> 02:11:09.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it got kind of crazy on Thursday when the USA Today piece came out.
[02:11:10.250 --> 02:11:12.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: I couldn't believe how many people read that paper, you know.
[02:11:13.210 --> 02:11:14.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've never looked at it in my life.
[02:11:14.750 --> 02:11:20.230]  [SPEAKER_22]: Thank goodness that was more about you and what you're doing at the radio station rather than you and how you related to the film Hackers.
[02:11:20.450 --> 02:11:22.650]  [SPEAKER_22]: It didn't seem to me to be a plug for the film.
[02:11:22.990 --> 02:11:23.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:11:23.490 --> 02:11:24.250]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's more for you.
[02:11:24.670 --> 02:11:26.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it caught me by surprise, actually.
[02:11:26.850 --> 02:11:30.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because, you know, I talk to reporters, you know, I answer their questions.
[02:11:31.470 --> 02:11:33.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, sometimes it works out.
[02:11:33.690 --> 02:11:35.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes I never hear anything from them again.
[02:11:35.330 --> 02:11:36.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just kind of weird.
[02:11:36.470 --> 02:11:37.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: You never know what to expect.
[02:11:37.550 --> 02:11:37.750]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right.
[02:11:38.190 --> 02:11:41.730]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay, well, I'm going to get offline and hopefully let some non-hackers call and see what's going on.
[02:11:41.870 --> 02:11:42.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:11:42.310 --> 02:11:42.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, thanks for calling.
[02:11:43.570 --> 02:11:45.970]  [SPEAKER_22]: Say what's up to everybody in the studio.
[02:11:46.290 --> 02:11:47.330]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I'll talk to you guys later.
[02:11:47.470 --> 02:11:47.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[02:11:47.770 --> 02:11:48.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take care.
[02:11:48.250 --> 02:11:48.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bye.
[02:11:49.170 --> 02:11:52.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was Joker giving us his views on the film.
[02:11:52.830 --> 02:11:57.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3407 for people who saw the film Hackers.
[02:11:57.410 --> 02:11:57.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what is it?
[02:11:58.030 --> 02:11:58.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have no calls?
[02:11:58.930 --> 02:11:59.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: How is that possible?
[02:11:59.650 --> 02:12:00.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: We always have calls.
[02:12:00.570 --> 02:12:01.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Will we lose all of our listeners?
[02:12:02.390 --> 02:12:04.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3407.
[02:12:04.990 --> 02:12:05.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's better.
[02:12:06.210 --> 02:12:07.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Something's wrong with the phones here.
[02:12:08.010 --> 02:12:09.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, we got a full switchboard now.
[02:12:09.890 --> 02:12:14.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Also, okay, if those of you are shy, you don't want to get on the air, please call up and pledge.
[02:12:14.910 --> 02:12:16.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[02:12:16.810 --> 02:12:18.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're up to 2780.
[02:12:19.090 --> 02:12:22.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: It is my fond wish that we clear 3,000 tonight.
[02:12:23.090 --> 02:12:24.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please help make that possible.
[02:12:25.270 --> 02:12:27.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[02:12:27.970 --> 02:12:31.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so I don't waste everyone's time by going through the premiums again.
[02:12:31.410 --> 02:12:35.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: And just call up and ask about them, and the people there will be more than happy to tell you what's going on.
[02:12:35.870 --> 02:12:36.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[02:12:36.530 --> 02:12:36.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on.
[02:12:37.370 --> 02:12:37.690]  Hi.
[02:12:37.970 --> 02:12:38.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: How you doing?
[02:12:39.030 --> 02:12:39.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: What?
[02:12:39.510 --> 02:12:40.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: How you doing?
[02:12:40.310 --> 02:12:40.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Fine.
[02:12:40.630 --> 02:12:40.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: How are you?
[02:12:41.010 --> 02:12:41.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:12:41.770 --> 02:12:41.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good.
[02:12:42.190 --> 02:12:42.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: You see the film?
[02:12:43.250 --> 02:12:43.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, yeah.
[02:12:44.130 --> 02:12:44.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: What did you think?
[02:12:45.390 --> 02:12:46.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, it sucked.
[02:12:46.390 --> 02:12:47.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: You didn't like it, huh?
[02:12:47.210 --> 02:12:47.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:12:47.630 --> 02:12:48.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why did you like it?
[02:12:48.990 --> 02:12:49.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: What?
[02:12:49.530 --> 02:12:50.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why didn't you like it?
[02:12:50.690 --> 02:12:51.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Why didn't I like it?
[02:12:51.730 --> 02:12:51.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:12:51.910 --> 02:12:56.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: I hated the really cheesy, I'm flying through the city and turned into a microchip scene.
[02:12:57.770 --> 02:12:58.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[02:12:58.630 --> 02:13:01.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Where I could see the data on those glass screens.
[02:13:01.730 --> 02:13:02.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:13:02.430 --> 02:13:03.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that was kind of weird.
[02:13:03.770 --> 02:13:05.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I, I, I'll give you that.
[02:13:05.050 --> 02:13:08.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, they, they, they overdid it with the, with the city turning into the chips.
[02:13:08.590 --> 02:13:10.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, yeah, you know, you got it the first time.
[02:13:10.390 --> 02:13:12.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: It didn't have to keep being done over and over again.
[02:13:13.130 --> 02:13:13.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[02:13:13.650 --> 02:13:15.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: What about, what about the overall plot?
[02:13:15.510 --> 02:13:16.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you think of that?
[02:13:16.550 --> 02:13:17.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: The overall plot?
[02:13:17.770 --> 02:13:17.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[02:13:18.230 --> 02:13:20.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, the script was much better.
[02:13:20.470 --> 02:13:20.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:13:22.970 --> 02:13:24.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you see the net, too?
[02:13:24.710 --> 02:13:25.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, I was listening to the radio.
[02:13:26.050 --> 02:13:26.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's freaking me out.
[02:13:26.890 --> 02:13:27.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah, you're on six seconds.
[02:13:27.930 --> 02:13:28.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Five minutes behind.
[02:13:28.910 --> 02:13:29.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you're on delay here.
[02:13:29.930 --> 02:13:30.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I'm sorry about that.
[02:13:30.950 --> 02:13:31.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, yeah, I did see the net.
[02:13:32.010 --> 02:13:33.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: As a matter of fact, I saw it twice.
[02:13:33.470 --> 02:13:34.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I guess you liked the net better, huh?
[02:13:35.070 --> 02:13:35.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[02:13:35.810 --> 02:13:38.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, actually, I called, uh, for a different reason, though.
[02:13:38.470 --> 02:13:38.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, okay.
[02:13:39.110 --> 02:13:40.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I went to the UNIX Expo today.
[02:13:40.750 --> 02:13:40.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[02:13:41.430 --> 02:13:42.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it was really frightening.
[02:13:42.770 --> 02:13:49.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: There were all these security people, and the NCSA had this really huge, like, we're trying to have this really huge demonstration.
[02:14:03.760 --> 02:14:08.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, everybody's handle, everybody's, like, certain keywords, words, everything.
[02:14:08.840 --> 02:14:21.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, and they log everything, and, like, when companies get, uh, companies hire them to get this information, and they'll pay, like, um, no, my roommate has it on.
[02:14:22.100 --> 02:14:22.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: I can't hear.
[02:14:22.700 --> 02:14:23.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: I heard...
[02:14:23.480 --> 02:14:31.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: They'll pay, uh, they have these, like, they'll give you a hard copy, or they'll give you an email, uh, to the companies of what they found about your company that they heard mentioned.
[02:14:32.580 --> 02:14:35.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've been hearing rumors they also have access to private email.
[02:14:36.120 --> 02:14:37.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, that's what I heard, too.
[02:14:37.460 --> 02:14:41.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's what, um, I was told I had a nice long conversation with the guy.
[02:14:41.400 --> 02:14:44.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: I, uh, they had a break-in last night.
[02:14:46.060 --> 02:14:46.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:14:47.400 --> 02:14:50.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now, that's, uh, that's kind of disturbing.
[02:14:50.400 --> 02:14:53.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you say that they're not letting certain people know about this.
[02:14:53.280 --> 02:14:54.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: They don't want anyone to know about it.
[02:14:54.960 --> 02:14:57.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: They say it's something that even hackers don't know about.
[02:14:57.900 --> 02:15:00.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it sounds like we, we're starting to find out about it.
[02:15:00.880 --> 02:15:01.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um...
[02:15:01.240 --> 02:15:02.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's why I called.
[02:15:02.500 --> 02:15:02.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:15:03.020 --> 02:15:04.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, do you have any idea what this is called?
[02:15:06.060 --> 02:15:06.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, um...
[02:15:07.180 --> 02:15:07.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Shoot.
[02:15:08.280 --> 02:15:09.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: I have it here somewhere.
[02:15:09.860 --> 02:15:10.580]  Oh, da-da-da-da-da-da.
[02:15:11.240 --> 02:15:13.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, it's good that you're finding out these things, by the way.
[02:15:13.780 --> 02:15:15.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, yeah, I was, uh...
[02:15:15.880 --> 02:15:16.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was really bizarre.
[02:15:17.160 --> 02:15:19.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: I walked in and they knew exactly what I was there for.
[02:15:20.000 --> 02:15:21.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, were you wearing a 2200 shirt or something?
[02:15:21.680 --> 02:15:22.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, I wasn't.
[02:15:22.880 --> 02:15:25.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was really freaked out.
[02:15:25.660 --> 02:15:25.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:15:26.180 --> 02:15:27.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I can understand that.
[02:15:28.620 --> 02:15:30.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, where's, where's, where's, where's, where's, where's...
[02:15:30.500 --> 02:15:32.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Ah, I can't find NCSA.
[02:15:33.600 --> 02:15:37.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: There, there are some people in the room who know exactly what you're talking about, too, I should point out, so, uh...
[02:15:37.500 --> 02:15:38.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Somebody does know what I'm talking about.
[02:15:38.460 --> 02:15:41.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, so it appears to be true that this thing exists.
[02:15:41.260 --> 02:15:43.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, let your information become a pirate's booty.
[02:15:44.940 --> 02:15:45.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[02:15:45.660 --> 02:15:46.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you want to read that to us?
[02:15:48.380 --> 02:15:48.740]  Um...
[02:15:48.740 --> 02:15:54.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Today's environment dictates all corporations, indeed any organization, maintain the tightest security measures.
[02:15:54.940 --> 02:15:55.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Think about it.
[02:15:55.840 --> 02:16:02.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your company has a multitude of networks, Internet connections, PCs, information in telephone systems and records that are ripe for the picking.
[02:16:03.100 --> 02:16:09.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll assess some of the risks and suggest how to predict your valuable assets from hackers, crackers, and other bad guys.
[02:16:11.340 --> 02:16:11.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: Wow.
[02:16:12.440 --> 02:16:13.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: There was, um...
[02:16:13.660 --> 02:16:15.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: They won't, they won't...
[02:16:15.460 --> 02:16:16.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: What was it called?
[02:16:16.540 --> 02:16:16.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: What was it called?
[02:16:17.000 --> 02:16:18.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Shoot, I can't remember the name of the program.
[02:16:19.220 --> 02:16:21.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, I happened to see it.
[02:16:22.160 --> 02:16:22.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:16:22.840 --> 02:16:24.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was based on Windows.
[02:16:24.560 --> 02:16:26.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now, um...
[02:16:26.560 --> 02:16:30.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Try and get this information to us when you do find it, because, uh...
[02:16:30.280 --> 02:16:32.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: I assume you have access to the net, right?
[02:16:32.300 --> 02:16:37.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, yeah, except I was going to get the information except that all my accounts are dead tonight.
[02:16:38.060 --> 02:16:38.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, really?
[02:16:38.780 --> 02:16:39.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[02:16:39.120 --> 02:16:41.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: And for some reason, every single account that I had, I couldn't dial into.
[02:16:42.260 --> 02:16:42.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Really?
[02:16:42.800 --> 02:16:42.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:16:43.120 --> 02:16:44.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's an ominous turn, isn't it?
[02:16:44.820 --> 02:16:46.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, very ominous.
[02:16:46.160 --> 02:16:46.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[02:16:46.420 --> 02:16:55.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, well, assuming that, uh, that you survive, uh, when, when, when your net accounts come back up, just, uh, email something over to us at 2620.com.
[02:16:55.120 --> 02:16:56.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I promise I'd email something over to them, too.
[02:16:57.160 --> 02:16:57.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:16:57.500 --> 02:16:57.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, really?
[02:16:58.120 --> 02:16:58.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:16:58.600 --> 02:16:59.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they'll get your, your name that way.
[02:17:00.240 --> 02:17:01.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, they already have my name.
[02:17:01.560 --> 02:17:01.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, really?
[02:17:02.020 --> 02:17:02.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I told them my name was.
[02:17:03.100 --> 02:17:03.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:17:04.720 --> 02:17:05.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's, that's, that's good.
[02:17:06.120 --> 02:17:06.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, and where are you calling from?
[02:17:08.540 --> 02:17:08.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um...
[02:17:08.860 --> 02:17:09.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you don't have to tell us if you don't want to.
[02:17:10.080 --> 02:17:10.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Queens.
[02:17:10.700 --> 02:17:11.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Queens, okay.
[02:17:11.360 --> 02:17:12.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: I used to hang out there.
[02:17:13.000 --> 02:17:13.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Used to hang out where?
[02:17:14.120 --> 02:17:14.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: At the show.
[02:17:14.860 --> 02:17:15.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, really?
[02:17:15.900 --> 02:17:16.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:17:16.600 --> 02:17:17.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: At, at our show.
[02:17:17.440 --> 02:17:17.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: What's your name?
[02:17:18.100 --> 02:17:18.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, Kira.
[02:17:19.200 --> 02:17:19.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, okay.
[02:17:19.980 --> 02:17:20.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[02:17:20.500 --> 02:17:21.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know, I know you.
[02:17:21.780 --> 02:17:22.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I know you.
[02:17:22.140 --> 02:17:24.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, well, um, well, please get us an information.
[02:17:24.940 --> 02:17:27.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, um, I guess I'll send it to 2600.
[02:17:28.380 --> 02:17:30.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, send it to Emmanuel2600.com.
[02:17:30.980 --> 02:17:31.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:17:31.360 --> 02:17:32.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, thanks for calling.
[02:17:32.660 --> 02:17:33.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, take care.
[02:17:33.400 --> 02:17:33.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[02:17:34.700 --> 02:17:36.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3407.
[02:17:36.640 --> 02:17:37.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on.
[02:17:38.820 --> 02:17:39.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello?
[02:17:39.580 --> 02:17:40.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, go ahead.
[02:17:40.780 --> 02:17:41.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[02:17:42.080 --> 02:17:44.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi, Emmanuel, this is, uh, Phony.
[02:17:44.140 --> 02:17:45.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Me, and I got R.F.
[02:17:45.580 --> 02:17:49.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Burns here with me, and we're the guys who shot the video of you in SummerCon.
[02:17:49.840 --> 02:17:50.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, really?
[02:17:50.780 --> 02:17:51.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Whoa.
[02:17:51.620 --> 02:17:53.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, this is, uh, this is something interesting.
[02:17:53.520 --> 02:17:55.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, uh, you're just the guys I want to talk to.
[02:17:56.000 --> 02:17:56.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:17:56.860 --> 02:18:01.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, um, I assume you're aware of all the stuff that's been going on, right?
[02:18:01.300 --> 02:18:01.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:18:01.600 --> 02:18:08.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, the, the person that was, uh, that was gathering all this information turned out to be a federal informant.
[02:18:08.780 --> 02:18:12.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that naturally, uh, put some suspicion on what that video was all about.
[02:18:13.340 --> 02:18:23.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, what happened is, uh, we went to SummerCon, and, uh, we contacted, um, uh, the interviewer guy, and he seemed to know everybody.
[02:18:24.060 --> 02:18:33.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh, we wanted to do this documentary on the community, and, um, uh, he set up all the interviews, and, you know, that's about it.
[02:18:34.220 --> 02:18:44.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, you know, we're not federal agents, and, uh, the video is, is kind of, you know, what's happening in the hacker community in the summer of 95.
[02:18:44.840 --> 02:18:48.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not, like, intelligence gathering for the federal government.
[02:18:48.900 --> 02:18:55.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, first of all, you, you understand how something like that would be bad if it was done by the federal government, right?
[02:18:55.760 --> 02:18:56.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, yeah.
[02:18:56.440 --> 02:18:58.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so you understand the concern that we have.
[02:18:58.640 --> 02:18:59.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, yeah.
[02:18:59.500 --> 02:18:59.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[02:19:00.040 --> 02:19:12.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, my question is, the guy that was the federal informant, I don't want to mention names here, because, you know, a lot of stuff is still happening, but what kind of, what kind of influence, what kind of control did he have over this whole project?
[02:19:12.180 --> 02:19:13.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: What kind of access did he have?
[02:19:14.320 --> 02:19:14.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, none.
[02:19:14.900 --> 02:19:28.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: He, he, we met him at, uh, SummerCon, and, um, he, we basically, you know, we're hanging out, and he said, you know, he was in the community for a while, and he set up some, some interviews, and that's about it.
[02:19:28.580 --> 02:19:33.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: He wasn't, we were also at DEFCON shooting and at a couple other places, and he wasn't there.
[02:19:34.040 --> 02:19:35.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, it was pretty much just...
[02:19:35.160 --> 02:19:36.560]  [SPEAKER_19]: And we met him at the show.
[02:19:36.840 --> 02:19:37.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right.
[02:19:37.180 --> 02:19:42.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's interesting, because, uh, the impression he gave was that he was the person organizing it.
[02:19:42.840 --> 02:19:43.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're saying that's not true?
[02:19:44.720 --> 02:19:45.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Definitely not.
[02:19:45.460 --> 02:19:46.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: We met him there.
[02:19:46.660 --> 02:19:46.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:19:47.220 --> 02:19:48.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, yeah, definitely not.
[02:19:48.600 --> 02:19:50.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: What do you mean, impression he gave there, or what?
[02:19:50.780 --> 02:19:56.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: At, uh, at SummerCon, that's the impression that, that I got, that a lot of other people got, was that he was the person in charge of the video.
[02:19:57.180 --> 02:19:58.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, no, definitely not.
[02:19:59.060 --> 02:19:59.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:19:59.820 --> 02:20:01.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, obviously, we all wanted the interview.
[02:20:01.980 --> 02:20:05.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: We wanted to interview and, uh, find out what's
[02:20:12.920 --> 02:20:19.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow, so what are your feelings after all this has happened, when you first heard the news?
[02:20:20.760 --> 02:20:27.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I saw it in the New York Times, and that's basically how I found out about it.
[02:20:27.420 --> 02:20:31.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I was kind of like, wow, pretty shocked.
[02:20:31.400 --> 02:20:41.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I don't know that much more about it, except there was this big press conference, and blah, blah, blah, and a big crackdown in that.
[02:20:41.620 --> 02:20:48.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, you know, I don't really know all the logistics or anything like that.
[02:20:48.500 --> 02:20:52.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: And we just felt somebody purchasing this videotape would find it of interest.
[02:20:53.800 --> 02:20:59.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: Obviously, it increased value to see the interview and hear this person interviewing you.
[02:21:00.340 --> 02:21:00.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:21:03.680 --> 02:21:09.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, I think the best thing at this point would be for you guys to get the word out onto the net.
[02:21:10.000 --> 02:21:12.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because there's a lot of suspicion going on right now.
[02:21:12.960 --> 02:21:15.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot of, you know, people don't really know what the full story is.
[02:21:15.940 --> 02:21:19.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think, you know, full disclosure at this point in time is probably the best policy.
[02:21:20.360 --> 02:21:23.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: What are your plans for this video?
[02:21:24.140 --> 02:21:26.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I'm doing all the editing.
[02:21:26.940 --> 02:21:27.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm out here.
[02:21:27.600 --> 02:21:29.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm in California right now.
[02:21:29.000 --> 02:21:29.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I'm in New Jersey.
[02:21:31.620 --> 02:21:34.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, we shot some stuff at DEFCON.
[02:21:34.980 --> 02:21:37.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, it's going to be like one big compilation tape.
[02:21:37.920 --> 02:21:38.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm just kind of...
[02:21:38.880 --> 02:21:41.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: We also shot some stuff at Area 51.
[02:21:41.000 --> 02:21:43.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm finally going through all the footage.
[02:21:44.680 --> 02:21:46.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, editing it together.
[02:21:46.720 --> 02:21:51.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: It'll probably be done, I'm hoping, within the next two weeks or so.
[02:21:51.100 --> 02:21:57.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, and I'll post a message to all 2,600 and something like that.
[02:21:57.500 --> 02:22:04.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: It'll probably be in like, probably take out an ad in private line and some other magazine saying, you know, video, it's available.
[02:22:04.980 --> 02:22:05.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:22:05.320 --> 02:22:11.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you're saying that the person that turned out to be the federal informant had no access to the videos himself?
[02:22:11.800 --> 02:22:12.560]  [SPEAKER_19]: Definitely not.
[02:22:12.760 --> 02:22:12.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: Nope.
[02:22:13.220 --> 02:22:13.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Nope.
[02:22:13.680 --> 02:22:13.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:22:13.960 --> 02:22:15.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I'm glad you called to clear that up.
[02:22:15.320 --> 02:22:15.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And...
[02:22:15.620 --> 02:22:17.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: We met him at the conference.
[02:22:17.600 --> 02:22:18.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I was all...
[02:22:18.500 --> 02:22:19.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: I was new to the conference.
[02:22:19.760 --> 02:22:22.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: I actually was the first conference I ever attended.
[02:22:23.420 --> 02:22:25.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: And we both own video production companies.
[02:22:25.660 --> 02:22:26.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm here in New Jersey.
[02:22:27.240 --> 02:22:29.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: And the other fellow is in California.
[02:22:29.380 --> 02:22:31.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: And we both own production companies.
[02:22:31.500 --> 02:22:33.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: And we said, hey, this is a really neat idea.
[02:22:33.580 --> 02:22:38.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: And actually, I met him in the lobby, down in the lobby, when he was checking in.
[02:22:38.320 --> 02:22:41.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, you're aware that this informant also is from New Jersey, right?
[02:22:41.360 --> 02:22:42.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, very aware.
[02:22:42.540 --> 02:22:42.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:22:42.860 --> 02:22:44.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, did he make any contact with you afterwards?
[02:22:45.400 --> 02:22:49.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I can't go into detail, but...
[02:22:49.200 --> 02:22:50.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why is that?
[02:22:51.420 --> 02:22:53.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it's...
[02:22:54.500 --> 02:22:55.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's...
[02:22:55.900 --> 02:22:56.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Really...
[02:22:56.460 --> 02:23:00.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I cannot go into detail because it's not my...
[02:23:00.780 --> 02:23:05.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: In other words, I can't divulge any more than I was told to divulge.
[02:23:06.300 --> 02:23:07.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Told by who?
[02:23:08.400 --> 02:23:11.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, the fellow that was interviewing you.
[02:23:11.960 --> 02:23:15.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: What I'm saying is, all I'm asking is, did he contact you afterwards?
[02:23:15.640 --> 02:23:16.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes, we've been in contact.
[02:23:17.200 --> 02:23:17.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:23:17.860 --> 02:23:19.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, when was the last time you talked to him?
[02:23:20.840 --> 02:23:22.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, a couple...
[02:23:22.100 --> 02:23:23.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: At least a couple days ago.
[02:23:23.980 --> 02:23:25.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: After the, uh...
[02:23:25.320 --> 02:23:27.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: After, he goes, well, so now...
[02:23:27.400 --> 02:23:33.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: Basically, he said to us, so now you know why I was there and who I...
[02:23:33.240 --> 02:23:36.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: Who I was representing, I said, well, that's, you know, obviously...
[02:23:36.880 --> 02:23:38.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: I said, you know, that...
[02:23:38.920 --> 02:23:42.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: I hope you didn't go around telling people that we were involved in it.
[02:23:42.380 --> 02:23:44.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: We were just simply videotaping.
[02:23:44.460 --> 02:23:45.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: He goes, yes, I...
[02:23:45.060 --> 02:23:46.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: He goes, I realized that.
[02:23:46.740 --> 02:23:48.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, he said, uh...
[02:23:48.140 --> 02:23:50.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: He goes, I don't want to get you any more involved than...
[02:23:51.860 --> 02:23:52.220]  Than...
[02:23:53.280 --> 02:23:53.640]  Than...
[02:23:53.640 --> 02:23:54.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh-huh.
[02:23:54.520 --> 02:23:55.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: And what's going on?
[02:23:55.420 --> 02:24:05.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, I mean, it's strange how we go to this conference, we're there to just collect some information, have some fun, put a cool tape together.
[02:24:05.680 --> 02:24:20.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, we went to Area 51, shot some neat video there, and, uh, just, we thought it'd be a fun and interesting tape, and all of a sudden, it turns out that this person we've met is, is, uh, is working for the government.
[02:24:20.700 --> 02:24:20.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:24:20.980 --> 02:24:23.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, do you think, uh, you were targeted by him?
[02:24:23.900 --> 02:24:24.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Was he...
[02:24:24.720 --> 02:24:28.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Not, I mean, it was, it was, it was totally a fluke that, that we were even there.
[02:24:28.420 --> 02:24:29.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: We weren't even gonna...
[02:24:29.440 --> 02:24:44.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: I actually drove here from New Jersey to the, to the convention, and, um, I just happened to be, uh, down in the lobby, and everybody's messing with the elevators, and screwing with the phones, and having a fun time, and, enjoying themselves, and, um...
[02:24:44.700 --> 02:24:49.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, he just seemed to, um, he seemed to be established in the community.
[02:24:49.180 --> 02:24:52.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, you knew him before that, that interview, didn't you?
[02:24:52.620 --> 02:24:54.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, well, I didn't know him.
[02:24:54.680 --> 02:24:56.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't know him, but I noticed him.
[02:24:57.520 --> 02:24:58.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's just put it that way.
[02:24:58.820 --> 02:24:59.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right.
[02:24:59.300 --> 02:25:04.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: He saw us with the video gear, running around with the video gear, and he said, hey, I could get you some really cool interviews.
[02:25:04.900 --> 02:25:07.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know the guy that's putting this whole convention together.
[02:25:07.160 --> 02:25:13.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know some pretty, uh, heavyweights, pretty big people in this industry, and we were like, fantastic, what a, what a great connection.
[02:25:13.380 --> 02:25:17.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, I'm all new, like I said before, to, to computers and things like that.
[02:25:18.200 --> 02:25:34.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: Again, as I stated before, I own a video production company, and I put together instructional videotapes, and how-to videotapes, and information videotapes, and I figured this would be a new, uh, venture for, for the company to get into, of interest, because,
[02:25:34.760 --> 02:25:39.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: uh, there's a lot of, a lot of awareness of, uh, of computers.
[02:25:40.020 --> 02:25:41.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, how did you hear of the conference?
[02:25:41.940 --> 02:25:46.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I heard of the conference through, uh, through several people.
[02:25:46.900 --> 02:25:50.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: First of all, I've, I've received the magazine, and I started getting into it.
[02:25:50.280 --> 02:25:54.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm very heavy into electronics and radio communications, and I don't know if you remember me.
[02:25:54.980 --> 02:26:00.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: I was the one that was going around with that, uh, radio that connects into, uh, cordless phones.
[02:26:00.480 --> 02:26:01.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, I do remember that.
[02:26:01.520 --> 02:26:02.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, that, that was me.
[02:26:02.940 --> 02:26:08.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, obviously, there was a lot of attention there when I had that, and people came over and said, wow, what is this thing?
[02:26:08.740 --> 02:26:09.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: How does it work?
[02:26:09.560 --> 02:26:13.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: And how, you know, and it just attracted a lot of attention, and it was a big hit.
[02:26:13.900 --> 02:26:15.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that could get you into trouble, couldn't it?
[02:26:15.780 --> 02:26:19.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, it, well, so can a lot of other things get you into trouble.
[02:26:19.220 --> 02:26:27.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, but I'm saying walking around with that and publicly displaying it, um, I mean, you know, if, if a, if a fed wanted to be, uh, a real jerk about it, he could get you into trouble.
[02:26:27.700 --> 02:26:28.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: Absolutely, yeah.
[02:26:28.400 --> 02:26:30.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's, there's nothing legal about it.
[02:26:30.600 --> 02:26:30.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: Mm-hmm.
[02:26:31.320 --> 02:26:33.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And was that at any time held over your head by this guy?
[02:26:33.960 --> 02:26:35.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, no, no, no, no, no.
[02:26:35.400 --> 02:26:41.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, that's, I mean, that's the last thing, uh, it was actually of insignificance.
[02:26:41.760 --> 02:26:50.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, for, I mean, from what I understand, it's cellular phone fraud they're going after, not somebody messing with, uh, a cordless 49 megahertz telephone.
[02:26:51.100 --> 02:26:51.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: Mm-hmm.
[02:26:52.380 --> 02:27:07.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, um, the, the, they're, the big ticket is they, that, you know, I, from what I understand, they're going after these people with a vengeance that are stealing pairs and, uh, the M.I.N.s and whatever else they, they...
[02:27:07.100 --> 02:27:17.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I assume you heard what I, what I said before about the, the person that, uh, was, was arrested for selling an ESN reader, one that he had already bought from a catalog, and that was the only, the only charge against him.
[02:27:17.800 --> 02:27:20.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, no, I wasn't aware of that.
[02:27:20.400 --> 02:27:22.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: I didn't tune in earlier, unfortunately, but, uh...
[02:27:22.880 --> 02:27:30.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: There are a lot of questions being raised about this, uh, exactly what it was they were looking for and, and who it is that they got, um, things like that.
[02:27:30.260 --> 02:27:36.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I think the best thing for you guys is to, is to be as open as possible and to, to get, uh, your word out on the net as soon as possible, too.
[02:27:36.600 --> 02:27:36.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um...
[02:27:36.880 --> 02:27:38.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: Which we are, and that's why we called you.
[02:27:38.940 --> 02:27:40.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, that's essentially why we called you.
[02:27:41.380 --> 02:27:43.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, we're, I, we couldn't believe it.
[02:27:43.520 --> 02:27:46.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: We're like, I, I, you know, it's unbelievable that this even took place.
[02:27:46.260 --> 02:27:49.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm like, well, this should increase the value of the videotape, and this should have an interest.
[02:27:50.040 --> 02:27:51.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: People should now want to watch, and...
[02:27:51.980 --> 02:27:55.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I'm just, I'm relieved that, uh, that there's gonna be a videotape.
[02:27:55.440 --> 02:27:57.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I thought, uh, we wouldn't see it again, you know?
[02:27:57.660 --> 02:27:59.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, it's definitely gonna be out, you know?
[02:27:59.240 --> 02:27:59.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: Just look for it.
[02:27:59.980 --> 02:28:00.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's definitely gonna be out.
[02:28:01.180 --> 02:28:08.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it, it has a lot of information on there that I don't want to get into over the phone Uh-huh.
[02:28:09.320 --> 02:28:18.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, let's just hope the federal authorities don't feel the same way and they don't pressure you to not release this or to give them a preview or all the footage or something like that.
[02:28:18.120 --> 02:28:18.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are you prepared for that?
[02:28:22.360 --> 02:28:27.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, they don't know who we are and we're not going to help them find us.
[02:28:27.620 --> 02:28:28.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, that's the right attitude.
[02:28:30.280 --> 02:28:33.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, the video is not intended for them.
[02:28:35.520 --> 02:28:40.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's basically just showing cool stuff that was happening this summer.
[02:28:41.200 --> 02:28:45.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: There will be some stuff on this whole incident.
[02:28:46.400 --> 02:28:47.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:28:48.200 --> 02:28:49.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are you on a cellular phone?
[02:28:50.100 --> 02:28:51.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, he just dropped.
[02:28:51.780 --> 02:28:53.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's on a cellular phone, isn't he?
[02:28:53.340 --> 02:28:54.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yep, that's exactly what he was on.
[02:28:55.040 --> 02:28:55.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[02:28:55.280 --> 02:29:00.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right, well, I guess I'll let you wrap it up on your end and I figured I'd just give you a call.
[02:29:01.000 --> 02:29:02.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, I appreciate that.
[02:29:02.140 --> 02:29:07.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: We've got some stuff out there and, again, it was purely coincidence and we couldn't believe it either.
[02:29:07.620 --> 02:29:15.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just was taken totally by surprise and I'm sure there's more information to come.
[02:29:15.380 --> 02:29:20.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah, I'm sure this saga will continue quite a ways and there'll be all kinds of other surprises as well.
[02:29:20.880 --> 02:29:25.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, thanks for taking our call and if we get a chance, we'll give you a call back.
[02:29:25.280 --> 02:29:26.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, keep us updated.
[02:29:26.200 --> 02:29:26.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks.
[02:29:26.700 --> 02:29:26.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: Thank you.
[02:29:27.660 --> 02:29:28.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: What a bizarre story.
[02:29:28.960 --> 02:29:30.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe someday somebody will make a film about it.
[02:29:30.860 --> 02:29:31.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: What a bizarre country.
[02:29:32.300 --> 02:29:35.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, um, Fibro-Optic, you're here.
[02:29:35.620 --> 02:29:36.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[02:29:36.360 --> 02:29:36.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome.
[02:29:36.760 --> 02:29:36.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm here.
[02:29:37.180 --> 02:29:37.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome.
[02:29:37.640 --> 02:29:39.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, did you, you've heard all this, right?
[02:29:39.500 --> 02:29:42.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: The craziness about the, uh, the film at SummerCon.
[02:29:42.640 --> 02:29:52.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: The video at SummerCon that was allegedly being done by the person who was a federal informant here in New York and, uh, some people were concerned about what that film was going to be used for.
[02:29:52.460 --> 02:29:54.480]  [SPEAKER_28]: No, I didn't hear very much about that at all.
[02:29:54.480 --> 02:29:55.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, well, it's, it's happening.
[02:29:56.680 --> 02:29:57.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, it's happening.
[02:29:57.360 --> 02:29:58.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you heard about the raids, right?
[02:29:58.380 --> 02:30:00.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Secret Service raids went on last week.
[02:30:01.380 --> 02:30:02.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Which raids?
[02:30:02.100 --> 02:30:03.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: I heard of a number of raids that went on.
[02:30:03.520 --> 02:30:06.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, this was not the AOL child pornography raids, which is a whole other kettle of fish.
[02:30:06.860 --> 02:30:07.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:30:07.060 --> 02:30:10.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: But this, this was the, um, this was the supposedly cellular phones.
[02:30:11.420 --> 02:30:11.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:30:11.820 --> 02:30:12.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, um...
[02:30:12.340 --> 02:30:13.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: I thought that was the FBI.
[02:30:13.720 --> 02:30:14.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, that was Secret Service.
[02:30:14.620 --> 02:30:15.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Was it really?
[02:30:15.120 --> 02:30:15.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:30:15.240 --> 02:30:15.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, okay.
[02:30:15.740 --> 02:30:15.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:30:16.800 --> 02:30:23.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so, the person that turned out to be a federal informant was actually somebody that, uh, was helping with this video.
[02:30:23.540 --> 02:30:27.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And up until this call, we thought it was a person that was in charge.
[02:30:27.700 --> 02:30:27.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Huh.
[02:30:27.900 --> 02:30:31.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, it's a relief to know that, uh, that that's not necessarily the case.
[02:30:32.100 --> 02:30:36.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we'll, we'll just have to keep abreast of this story and see what's, what's going on in the weeks ahead.
[02:30:36.980 --> 02:30:37.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Back to the film Hackers.
[02:30:38.000 --> 02:30:38.560]  [SPEAKER_28]: You saw it.
[02:30:38.620 --> 02:30:38.980]  [SPEAKER_28]: What did you think?
[02:30:39.100 --> 02:30:39.800]  [SPEAKER_28]: Sure, I saw it.
[02:30:40.000 --> 02:30:43.600]  [SPEAKER_28]: Um, I thought, uh, I thought it was a really entertaining movie.
[02:30:43.820 --> 02:30:51.160]  [SPEAKER_28]: I thought that, uh, it did a lot of justice to, uh, the, uh, attitudes and mannerisms of Hackers.
[02:30:51.360 --> 02:31:02.620]  [SPEAKER_28]: Of course, um, you can't consider it to be 100% realistic because nobody's gonna go to a movie theater and read someone else's screen for an hour and 45 minutes.
[02:31:02.840 --> 02:31:02.900]  [SPEAKER_28]: No.
[02:31:03.140 --> 02:31:07.100]  [SPEAKER_28]: So, obviously, they had to spruce up the way computers looked in the movie.
[02:31:07.560 --> 02:31:08.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they sure did.
[02:31:08.620 --> 02:31:10.460]  [SPEAKER_28]: Oh, yeah, they, they really spruced it up.
[02:31:11.220 --> 02:31:15.480]  [SPEAKER_28]: So, it was, uh, highly graphical and visual, the actual hacking that was being done.
[02:31:15.680 --> 02:31:17.740]  [SPEAKER_28]: What did you think of the actual plot, the actual story?
[02:31:17.920 --> 02:31:24.340]  [SPEAKER_28]: Well, yeah, the actual plot was, uh, I mean, uh, it was, it was a good story, I thought.
[02:31:24.520 --> 02:31:27.240]  [SPEAKER_28]: I mean, uh, the elements of the plot seemed to fit together.
[02:31:27.940 --> 02:31:39.680]  [SPEAKER_28]: Um, as far as the plausibility, I mean, uh, you, you, you know, as well as I do, that various elements of the plot were based on information that, uh, and stories that we provided.
[02:31:40.340 --> 02:31:50.740]  [SPEAKER_28]: So, I mean, um, at least to some degree, you could say that the movie was, was, uh, loosely based on reality, at least, uh, in the, the, uh, elements of the plot, as far as that goes.
[02:31:51.020 --> 02:31:51.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:31:51.520 --> 02:31:57.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, there, there were quite a few little things in there that I, I think a lot of people might not have, have caught that were based on, on reality.
[02:31:58.260 --> 02:31:58.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:31:58.460 --> 02:32:03.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: If anyone has any questions, if they think they know something, there was a call, we'll, we'll either verify it or we won't comment on it.
[02:32:04.200 --> 02:32:06.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, 212-279-3407.
[02:32:06.340 --> 02:32:10.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think overall, uh, that's, that's number to make a, uh, to get on the air, by the way.
[02:32:10.340 --> 02:32:12.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you want to make a pledge, 212-279-3400.
[02:32:13.160 --> 02:32:30.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I think overall, the message of the film was really good, because it, it sort of sent out the message that hackers are, are just into exploring, learning, maybe, you know, doing one better than the other person, and the federal authorities just do not get it.
[02:32:30.660 --> 02:32:30.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nope.
[02:32:31.800 --> 02:32:35.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that, uh, that was sent out, that, that message was definitely sent out.
[02:32:35.500 --> 02:32:37.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll see what kind of response it gets.
[02:32:38.160 --> 02:32:38.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:32:38.840 --> 02:32:39.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[02:32:39.400 --> 02:32:39.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[02:32:39.800 --> 02:32:40.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, hello.
[02:32:41.380 --> 02:32:48.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, I had a quick question about something that you mentioned on the show, uh, a couple months ago, actually.
[02:32:48.940 --> 02:32:50.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we're trying to, we're trying to keep it to the film.
[02:32:50.840 --> 02:32:51.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're trying to keep it to the film, hackers.
[02:32:51.760 --> 02:32:52.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Make it very quick, okay?
[02:32:52.920 --> 02:32:53.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay.
[02:32:53.380 --> 02:32:59.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, I was just, sorry, I, I tried calling some numbers in the 710 area code and listening to the error messages.
[02:32:59.920 --> 02:33:00.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: Mm-hmm.
[02:33:00.700 --> 02:33:04.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, um, at the end, I got a female voice giving the error message.
[02:33:04.360 --> 02:33:10.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: And at the end, a male voice suddenly cut in and said, um, 2-1-2-6-T.
[02:33:11.680 --> 02:33:12.200]  [SPEAKER_28]: Yeah.
[02:33:12.320 --> 02:33:13.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: Which piqued my curiosity.
[02:33:13.680 --> 02:33:20.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: So I tried calling it from some different locations and got a different code at the end each time.
[02:33:20.360 --> 02:33:20.540]  [SPEAKER_28]: Uh-huh.
[02:33:21.080 --> 02:33:22.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Fascinating, isn't it?
[02:33:22.080 --> 02:33:26.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, uh, Fiber can, Fiber can explain exactly what those, what those little numbers mean.
[02:33:26.420 --> 02:33:26.680]  [SPEAKER_28]: So...
[02:33:26.680 --> 02:33:29.980]  [SPEAKER_28]: Unfortunately, it's, uh, nothing particularly very interesting.
[02:33:29.980 --> 02:33:34.120]  [SPEAKER_28]: All it's telling you is, uh, a little bit of information about how the call was routed.
[02:33:34.800 --> 02:33:37.880]  [SPEAKER_28]: Obviously, the, uh, the first three digits refer to the area code.
[02:33:38.000 --> 02:33:38.120]  [SPEAKER_28]: Right.
[02:33:38.500 --> 02:33:44.540]  [SPEAKER_28]: The, uh, the, for example, 2-T, 6-T, uh, all different, um, letters and numbers.
[02:33:45.020 --> 02:33:55.660]  [SPEAKER_28]: Basically, uh, are, uh, is a, uh, simple coding system that, uh, AT&T uses to indicate exactly which 4ESS toll center the call was routed through.
[02:33:56.340 --> 02:33:57.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, the T stands for what?
[02:33:58.100 --> 02:33:59.380]  [SPEAKER_28]: Uh, T usually stands for toll.
[02:33:59.380 --> 02:33:59.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:34:00.120 --> 02:34:00.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, it's always a T.
[02:34:01.500 --> 02:34:01.820]  [SPEAKER_28]: Yeah.
[02:34:01.820 --> 02:34:01.980]  [SPEAKER_28]: Right?
[02:34:02.140 --> 02:34:04.680]  [SPEAKER_28]: Um, I'm trying to think, uh...
[02:34:04.680 --> 02:34:06.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've never heard anything other than a T.
[02:34:06.340 --> 02:34:08.840]  [SPEAKER_28]: Trying to remember if there's anything else, uh, no, that's, that's correct.
[02:34:09.000 --> 02:34:10.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: With, with, uh, you know, the local phone company anyway.
[02:34:11.140 --> 02:34:11.320]  [SPEAKER_28]: Yeah.
[02:34:11.500 --> 02:34:14.740]  [SPEAKER_28]: I, I believe that, uh, that it is just a number plus T.
[02:34:15.520 --> 02:34:15.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[02:34:16.360 --> 02:34:19.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, for future calls, please keep it to the subject.
[02:34:19.200 --> 02:34:20.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're talking about the film hackers.
[02:34:20.400 --> 02:34:23.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: We know a lot of people saw it, so we have something we can all talk about.
[02:34:23.260 --> 02:34:25.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3407.
[02:34:25.460 --> 02:34:27.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you want to make a pledge, please call us.
[02:34:27.120 --> 02:34:29.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[02:34:29.740 --> 02:34:30.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[02:34:30.400 --> 02:34:30.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on.
[02:34:30.980 --> 02:34:31.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hello?
[02:34:31.640 --> 02:34:32.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, go ahead.
[02:34:32.580 --> 02:34:33.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, I want to talk about hackers.
[02:34:33.980 --> 02:34:34.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, good.
[02:34:34.660 --> 02:34:34.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:34:38.390 --> 02:34:40.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, that's that federal government again.
[02:34:40.730 --> 02:34:42.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: They cut in and they won't let him finish.
[02:34:44.270 --> 02:34:44.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[02:34:46.210 --> 02:34:48.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's that, it's that big computer in Utah doing that.
[02:34:48.550 --> 02:34:49.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's, it's Big Daddy.
[02:34:50.250 --> 02:34:50.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[02:34:51.070 --> 02:34:51.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[02:34:52.670 --> 02:34:52.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello?
[02:34:53.250 --> 02:34:53.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, go ahead.
[02:34:55.030 --> 02:34:55.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[02:34:55.670 --> 02:34:56.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[02:34:56.330 --> 02:34:57.290]  [SPEAKER_26]: Eric, hi, it's Pam.
[02:34:57.550 --> 02:34:59.090]  [SPEAKER_26]: I don't have anything to say about hackers.
[02:34:59.650 --> 02:35:00.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh?
[02:35:00.370 --> 02:35:02.370]  [SPEAKER_26]: I just wanted to say thank you for the well wishes.
[02:35:02.410 --> 02:35:06.590]  [SPEAKER_26]: And before you go off the air, could you say something about what's happened with ROP since you last did?
[02:35:07.170 --> 02:35:09.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, what's happened with, you mean, uh, Access for All?
[02:35:09.510 --> 02:35:09.970]  [SPEAKER_26]: Yeah.
[02:35:10.750 --> 02:35:12.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we have Bill SF here.
[02:35:12.190 --> 02:35:13.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: I guess he can probably answer that better than anybody.
[02:35:14.150 --> 02:35:14.650]  [SPEAKER_26]: Okay, cool.
[02:35:14.730 --> 02:35:16.270]  [SPEAKER_26]: I'll hang up and just let you guys go.
[02:35:16.550 --> 02:35:16.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:35:17.090 --> 02:35:23.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bill, make it, uh, make it fast because we want to talk about hackers, which, uh, a few people seem able to do.
[02:35:24.010 --> 02:35:26.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hackers is just a movie, but we are the hackers.
[02:35:26.690 --> 02:35:27.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's true.
[02:35:27.330 --> 02:35:30.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, you're, you're asking about the Scientology, uh, situation, right?
[02:35:31.050 --> 02:35:31.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[02:35:32.890 --> 02:35:33.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello?
[02:35:33.430 --> 02:35:33.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: She's gone.
[02:35:33.850 --> 02:35:34.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: She's gone?
[02:35:34.470 --> 02:35:34.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, she's gone.
[02:35:34.810 --> 02:35:37.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so we'll just talk about, uh, what...
[02:35:37.030 --> 02:35:37.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Where does it stand?
[02:35:37.750 --> 02:35:38.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Just tell us where it stands.
[02:35:38.390 --> 02:35:56.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, where it stands, uh, I talked to, uh, Niels, who is, uh, one of my housemates out there, and, uh, he said that, uh, that basically Scientology is, uh, I can't say the word here in the States, it can in Holland, but, uh, Scientology has been totally,
[02:35:56.850 --> 02:35:59.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: uh, made to look like dirt.
[02:36:00.210 --> 02:36:00.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[02:36:00.690 --> 02:36:09.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Dutch government is going to make moves and is moving rapidly to revoke them of their status of being a church, uh, and enforcing them to pay all back taxes.
[02:36:10.050 --> 02:36:10.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[02:36:10.530 --> 02:36:11.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Watch out, Scientology.
[02:36:12.070 --> 02:36:12.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is something, and I also...
[02:36:12.990 --> 02:36:14.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: You are about to be had.
[02:36:14.370 --> 02:36:21.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: I also heard that, that, that was it, the Fisher affidavit, that, that document they were after, uh, that's all over the net now.
[02:36:21.310 --> 02:36:21.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's all over.
[02:36:21.610 --> 02:36:22.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: They can't stop it.
[02:36:22.430 --> 02:36:23.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're all over Scientology.
[02:36:24.170 --> 02:36:24.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[02:36:25.710 --> 02:36:27.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, I guess that's...
[02:36:27.070 --> 02:36:27.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: You better not touch me.
[02:36:27.590 --> 02:36:32.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what happens when, uh, when, when, when you mess with, uh, with hackers, particularly Dutch hackers.
[02:36:32.690 --> 02:36:34.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, okay, thanks for the update.
[02:36:34.430 --> 02:36:37.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's, uh, let's see if anybody out there who's seen the film wants to talk about the film.
[02:36:37.590 --> 02:36:38.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[02:36:38.110 --> 02:36:38.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[02:36:39.630 --> 02:36:40.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hello?
[02:36:40.290 --> 02:36:40.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, go ahead.
[02:36:41.850 --> 02:36:42.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, there's a delay.
[02:36:43.090 --> 02:36:43.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sorry.
[02:36:43.610 --> 02:36:43.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's okay.
[02:36:44.550 --> 02:36:47.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, I wanted to talk about the role of the woman.
[02:36:48.050 --> 02:36:48.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Kate.
[02:36:49.050 --> 02:36:49.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[02:36:49.650 --> 02:36:49.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:36:50.130 --> 02:36:51.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, sorry, there's a delay.
[02:36:51.490 --> 02:36:52.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: I have to turn my radio.
[02:36:52.190 --> 02:36:54.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you gotta turn your radio down and you'll be hopelessly confused.
[02:36:54.290 --> 02:36:54.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, hold on.
[02:36:54.710 --> 02:36:56.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: I didn't think I was gonna get through.
[02:36:56.310 --> 02:36:56.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sorry.
[02:36:56.750 --> 02:36:56.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ah.
[02:36:57.210 --> 02:36:57.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:36:58.150 --> 02:37:00.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, her name was Acid Burn, right?
[02:37:00.430 --> 02:37:01.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, yes, Acid Burn.
[02:37:02.050 --> 02:37:02.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[02:37:02.730 --> 02:37:02.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:37:03.010 --> 02:37:04.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, I'm not a hacker, by the way.
[02:37:05.670 --> 02:37:23.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, I just thought it, there was a strange contradiction in that she seemed to be really good technologically, like, um, crash override, but at the same time she was expected to be feminine, and there's, that didn't make a lot of sense.
[02:37:23.590 --> 02:37:34.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, where he says, like, you should wear a dress on our date, or at the end, it's like, the old traditional, um...
[02:37:34.930 --> 02:37:37.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, but those were his expectations, not hers.
[02:37:37.690 --> 02:37:42.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right, but what I'm saying is, in the movie, it's not clear.
[02:37:42.790 --> 02:37:46.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Like, she, there's, she acts differently.
[02:37:46.570 --> 02:37:57.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: At one point in the Grand Central Station scene, she's, like, telling the guys what to do, and then, at the end, like, she's acting feminine more.
[02:37:57.670 --> 02:37:57.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[02:37:57.790 --> 02:38:00.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know, it was, it just got contradictory.
[02:38:00.590 --> 02:38:10.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't, I don't know how better to spell it out, except it made him look more backward and less believable, that he would have an image of women that way.
[02:38:10.990 --> 02:38:20.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, you know, I've seen that many, many times, uh, with, uh, male characters in real life, and their, their image of females, just, it, it, it degrades them so much.
[02:38:20.090 --> 02:38:26.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: They have these traditional views, and, you know, females are not capable of certain things, and they have to behave in this particular manner.
[02:38:26.830 --> 02:38:33.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I don't think it was really brought out that much in the film, but I, I do agree with you, that was an indication of it there, this, you know, wearing a dress.
[02:38:33.210 --> 02:38:34.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why is that so important?
[02:38:35.530 --> 02:38:48.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, I mean, it was far more interesting when she was really, like, the guys doing, you know, what they, like, there could, there shouldn't have been a double standard where they could be themselves, and there wasn't a dress code.
[02:38:48.410 --> 02:38:59.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, mostly through the movie She's in Pants, and I thought that was good, but it was still more of a double standard toward her, and the fact that she was just one, and there were four of them.
[02:38:59.630 --> 02:39:02.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, well, do you think that's a double standard of the film, or a double standard of society?
[02:39:03.170 --> 02:39:13.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, the film reflects that of the society, but maybe it was wrong of me to expect that in the hacker world, it would be different for women.
[02:39:13.870 --> 02:39:15.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe that was wrong to think.
[02:39:16.230 --> 02:39:16.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm not sure.
[02:39:16.690 --> 02:39:19.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'd like to hear from hacker women how it is.
[02:39:19.510 --> 02:39:20.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: I can't speak for them.
[02:39:20.950 --> 02:39:29.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm just curious, because it just makes the guys seem less believable if that's how they see women.
[02:39:29.810 --> 02:39:49.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: See, like, if they can see women that backwardly, it kind of perpetuates that view of the male scientist who can be great at the lab, and then comes home and treats his wife or girlfriend or something like shit, you know, or sorry, like crap, but that's what I wanted to say about the movie.
[02:39:49.270 --> 02:39:58.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, okay, now we're asking a lot of people this, actually, as far as the ending of the film, and a lot of people don't seem to like the ending, because it seemed kind of cheesy.
[02:39:58.750 --> 02:39:59.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: How would you do the ending differently?
[02:40:00.830 --> 02:40:03.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I would make her continue to be herself.
[02:40:03.990 --> 02:40:07.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: There are different times in the film where she seems to be herself.
[02:40:07.590 --> 02:40:14.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Like, again, not this double standard where she's expected to be more feminine, and the guys can just be themselves.
[02:40:15.370 --> 02:40:17.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what I wanted to focus on.
[02:40:17.410 --> 02:40:21.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: If she were more like she is in the beginning of the film...
[02:40:21.190 --> 02:40:22.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, they accept her on her own terms.
[02:40:22.890 --> 02:40:24.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: It seems that way.
[02:40:24.370 --> 02:40:24.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:40:24.650 --> 02:40:28.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, I didn't like the fact that her mom, like, wrote self-help books.
[02:40:29.190 --> 02:40:29.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[02:40:29.890 --> 02:40:39.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: If she came off, like, well-off and a snob and all that, but I was more interested in real hacker women and how it really is.
[02:40:39.570 --> 02:40:45.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, I assume that a lot of it is very solitary, but I could be wrong about that.
[02:40:45.570 --> 02:40:56.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Nonetheless, I was just hoping that maybe the double standards weren't as bad, or that progress had been made in those circles for women, and there were less double standards.
[02:40:57.430 --> 02:40:59.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, thanks for the input.
[02:40:59.310 --> 02:41:00.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, thanks for the show.
[02:41:00.890 --> 02:41:01.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, take care.
[02:41:02.430 --> 02:41:03.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Interesting view, huh?
[02:41:03.270 --> 02:41:05.470]  [SPEAKER_28]: Well, I don't see any double standard going on.
[02:41:05.670 --> 02:41:05.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: No?
[02:41:05.790 --> 02:41:09.510]  [SPEAKER_28]: I mean, all throughout the movie, all the other hackers revered Kate.
[02:41:09.950 --> 02:41:10.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right.
[02:41:10.270 --> 02:41:14.250]  [SPEAKER_28]: They didn't want to tell Crash Override who she was.
[02:41:14.390 --> 02:41:16.990]  [SPEAKER_28]: When he first asked, have you ever heard of Acidburn?
[02:41:17.110 --> 02:41:17.270]  [SPEAKER_28]: Right.
[02:41:17.550 --> 02:41:18.590]  [SPEAKER_28]: They didn't tell him.
[02:41:18.650 --> 02:41:19.990]  [SPEAKER_28]: They thought it was funny that he didn't know.
[02:41:20.470 --> 02:41:20.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: Mm-hmm.
[02:41:21.090 --> 02:41:23.710]  [SPEAKER_28]: And then, I mean, they made a bet.
[02:41:24.170 --> 02:41:26.090]  [SPEAKER_28]: They basically made a wager.
[02:41:26.090 --> 02:41:26.910]  [SPEAKER_28]: It was a contest.
[02:41:27.310 --> 02:41:27.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:41:27.570 --> 02:41:29.590]  [SPEAKER_28]: He was going to wear a dress, or she was.
[02:41:29.870 --> 02:41:32.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: You notice, though, that it changed midway through the film.
[02:41:32.070 --> 02:41:44.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't know if the significance of this was caught by most people, but the original bet was that, what was it, you have to, you become my slave.
[02:41:44.550 --> 02:41:44.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right.
[02:41:44.730 --> 02:41:52.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: She said, you become my slave if I win, and if Dade won, then she would have to go on a date with him.
[02:41:52.390 --> 02:41:52.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:41:52.730 --> 02:41:59.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then, they revised it later on so that he said, if I win, you have to wear a dress on our date.
[02:41:59.950 --> 02:42:00.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[02:42:00.150 --> 02:42:03.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: She said, if I win, you have to wear a dress on our date.
[02:42:03.610 --> 02:42:05.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: All of a sudden, she's agreeing that there's going to be a date.
[02:42:05.990 --> 02:42:09.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, whereas before, it wasn't an assumed thing that there was going to be a date.
[02:42:09.490 --> 02:42:14.270]  [SPEAKER_28]: I suppose, but I mean, that was at the point where they were tied, 60 to 60, and they needed to up the stakes.
[02:42:14.490 --> 02:42:14.690]  [SPEAKER_28]: Right.
[02:42:16.290 --> 02:42:17.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was interesting.
[02:42:17.470 --> 02:42:17.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:42:17.790 --> 02:42:20.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Kind of weird, but I see her point.
[02:42:20.610 --> 02:42:21.590]  [SPEAKER_28]: I see her point to a degree.
[02:42:21.950 --> 02:42:22.630]  [SPEAKER_28]: Yeah, to a degree.
[02:42:22.630 --> 02:42:24.230]  [SPEAKER_28]: I don't think it was really...
[02:42:24.830 --> 02:42:29.110]  [SPEAKER_28]: I don't think they made the movie come off as being chauvinistic or anything like that.
[02:42:29.110 --> 02:42:37.170]  [SPEAKER_28]: I mean, would it have been any worse or better if the girl won and the guy lost and he had to wear the dress?
[02:42:37.870 --> 02:42:45.790]  [SPEAKER_28]: Would we be pandering to some stereotypical thing that male hackers are homosexuals or something?
[02:42:45.970 --> 02:42:48.270]  [SPEAKER_28]: I mean, I don't see any double standard going on.
[02:42:48.450 --> 02:42:48.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:42:49.070 --> 02:42:49.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, let's go to another call.
[02:42:50.210 --> 02:42:51.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on.
[02:42:52.410 --> 02:42:52.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[02:42:54.390 --> 02:42:55.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, this is how it works, folks.
[02:42:55.950 --> 02:42:57.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: You've got to talk when I answer the phone.
[02:42:57.410 --> 02:42:59.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: When I say, good evening, you're on, that means...
[02:42:59.010 --> 02:43:03.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, if you hear me say that through the phone, not through the radio, then that means go ahead.
[02:43:03.170 --> 02:43:04.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on.
[02:43:04.750 --> 02:43:05.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, uh, Manuel?
[02:43:05.970 --> 02:43:06.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: How you doing?
[02:43:07.090 --> 02:43:07.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[02:43:07.810 --> 02:43:08.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: How you doing today?
[02:43:08.670 --> 02:43:09.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pretty good.
[02:43:09.750 --> 02:43:11.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: About the movie Hackers.
[02:43:11.230 --> 02:43:11.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[02:43:13.590 --> 02:43:17.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, how did you feel about the way that Emmanuel Goldstein was portrayed in it?
[02:43:17.830 --> 02:43:23.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now, of course, uh, there's, there's the differing opinion as to how accurate that was.
[02:43:23.330 --> 02:43:24.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: First of all, that character was not me.
[02:43:24.770 --> 02:43:25.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: He was not supposed to be me.
[02:43:25.610 --> 02:43:27.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: He simply used that name.
[02:43:27.830 --> 02:43:31.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought it was kind of clever the way that that turned out to be his real name.
[02:43:31.830 --> 02:43:38.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: His, his name in the film, his hacker name was Serial Killer, spelled with a C, but his real name was Emmanuel Goldstein.
[02:43:38.410 --> 02:43:44.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: To me, that implies that somehow he hacked the, you know, the system to make his real name Emmanuel Goldstein, which I thought was kind of funny.
[02:43:44.930 --> 02:43:49.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: I thought the character was probably one of the best characters of the film because this guy was really, really funny.
[02:43:49.990 --> 02:43:51.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I found that interesting, too.
[02:43:51.470 --> 02:43:53.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: I didn't know that that was his real name.
[02:43:53.270 --> 02:43:53.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:43:53.750 --> 02:43:56.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: I thought he was not particularly the one into NYNEX.
[02:43:56.750 --> 02:43:58.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, he, uh, that was, uh, who was the other guy?
[02:43:59.030 --> 02:43:59.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was Phantom Freak.
[02:43:59.710 --> 02:44:00.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Phantom Freak, right.
[02:44:00.390 --> 02:44:01.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: He was the king of NYNEX or whatever he called him.
[02:44:01.990 --> 02:44:03.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: He was still in jail at the end of the movie.
[02:44:03.350 --> 02:44:04.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, now, that's another thing.
[02:44:04.590 --> 02:44:05.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: We figured this out.
[02:44:05.770 --> 02:44:10.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, because they cut the film in a weird way, they cut out the scene where he got out of prison.
[02:44:10.950 --> 02:44:13.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, if you look at the film the way it is now, he's still there.
[02:44:13.870 --> 02:44:15.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, they never actually let him out.
[02:44:15.610 --> 02:44:15.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: No.
[02:44:15.890 --> 02:44:18.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I think that's opening up for a sequel, actually.
[02:44:19.030 --> 02:44:20.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: I enjoyed the movie myself.
[02:44:20.430 --> 02:44:27.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: I thought it was great the way they made it, and they really brought out the opinion about the way the feds look towards everything.
[02:44:28.210 --> 02:44:30.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you see, that's, that's what we tried to do.
[02:44:30.130 --> 02:44:32.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, a couple of us were consultants for the film.
[02:44:32.910 --> 02:44:35.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, you know, at, I gave them input.
[02:44:35.190 --> 02:44:35.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was really all I did.
[02:44:36.150 --> 02:44:38.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of other people did much more work than I did.
[02:44:38.490 --> 02:44:43.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, but I just tried to get the feeling across to them to say, look, this is how it is.
[02:44:43.170 --> 02:44:44.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is how hackers view this.
[02:44:44.230 --> 02:44:46.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: This, this is how we are viewed by the authorities.
[02:44:47.290 --> 02:44:49.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, there's a lot I would have done differently.
[02:44:49.610 --> 02:44:52.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot I, I advise them not to do that they did anyway.
[02:44:52.610 --> 02:44:57.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I think the most important part, which is the message, the message managed to get out.
[02:44:57.710 --> 02:44:58.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, I think it did.
[02:44:58.750 --> 02:45:03.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: The only aspect of the film I didn't like was the way that they stretched that word elite.
[02:45:03.010 --> 02:45:04.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that was awful.
[02:45:04.810 --> 02:45:05.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: I agree with you there.
[02:45:06.030 --> 02:45:06.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was awful.
[02:45:06.670 --> 02:45:12.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: When he said, I think you're elite in the swimming pool scene at the end, there was audible groans in the audience I was with.
[02:45:12.970 --> 02:45:14.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was with a bunch of hackers seeing it.
[02:45:14.470 --> 02:45:16.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was, oh, this is, this is awful.
[02:45:16.810 --> 02:45:17.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know.
[02:45:17.450 --> 02:45:20.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: The audience was particularly, um, not towards that side.
[02:45:20.690 --> 02:45:20.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:45:21.370 --> 02:45:21.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes.
[02:45:21.810 --> 02:45:23.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: How, you saw it with a non-technical audience.
[02:45:24.150 --> 02:45:24.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[02:45:24.450 --> 02:45:26.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: So how did they, did they laugh at the right moments, what?
[02:45:27.730 --> 02:45:28.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, not that many.
[02:45:28.910 --> 02:45:29.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: Some did.
[02:45:29.610 --> 02:45:31.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Not that many had any idea what was going on to begin with.
[02:45:32.210 --> 02:45:34.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: So was it a confused audience walking out at the end?
[02:45:34.570 --> 02:45:35.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, for the most part.
[02:45:36.530 --> 02:45:38.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: A lot of humor in there that you have to pick up.
[02:45:39.110 --> 02:45:39.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:45:40.570 --> 02:45:42.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: Stuff that normally wouldn't, uh, be picked up there.
[02:45:43.510 --> 02:45:43.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:45:44.050 --> 02:45:45.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Didn't know about the subject.
[02:45:45.690 --> 02:45:46.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: How would you do the ending differently?
[02:45:54.010 --> 02:45:56.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, the ending was a little empty.
[02:45:57.170 --> 02:45:57.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh-huh.
[02:46:00.170 --> 02:46:02.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, I would probably, uh,
[02:46:05.360 --> 02:46:06.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: hmm, gee.
[02:46:06.360 --> 02:46:08.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I guess you'd think about it a lot.
[02:46:08.380 --> 02:46:08.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.
[02:46:09.400 --> 02:46:10.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a good, that's a good start anyway.
[02:46:12.260 --> 02:46:12.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: All righty.
[02:46:13.020 --> 02:46:14.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, all right, thanks for the input.
[02:46:14.660 --> 02:46:15.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, have a good one.
[02:46:15.460 --> 02:46:15.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: You too.
[02:46:16.880 --> 02:46:22.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, it's, uh, about 11 minutes to 12 o'clock, uh, the last 11 minutes of Off the Hook.
[02:46:22.980 --> 02:46:25.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we're up to $3,205, which is great.
[02:46:25.940 --> 02:46:28.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's really, really good, and I said if we got up to $3,000, I'd stop begging.
[02:46:28.700 --> 02:46:29.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I will.
[02:46:29.440 --> 02:46:33.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I just want to remind people that if they still want to call, they can.
[02:46:33.460 --> 02:46:33.860]  You're still begging.
[02:46:34.080 --> 02:46:49.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I'm not begging anymore because I'm just telling people, I'm informing people that if they want the, uh, the, the special packages that we still have a few of, uh, they can call 212-279-3400 and it will make a big difference for the radio station and for the program.
[02:46:49.280 --> 02:46:50.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, those lines are open.
[02:46:51.500 --> 02:46:53.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's, uh, go back to the call in line, see if anyone's there.
[02:46:54.140 --> 02:46:54.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[02:46:54.740 --> 02:46:54.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on.
[02:46:56.640 --> 02:46:57.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I didn't hit the button.
[02:46:57.800 --> 02:46:57.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good.
[02:46:57.980 --> 02:46:58.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I did hit the button.
[02:46:59.200 --> 02:46:59.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's nobody there.
[02:47:00.020 --> 02:47:00.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, try this one.
[02:47:00.720 --> 02:47:00.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[02:47:01.140 --> 02:47:01.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on.
[02:47:18.960 --> 02:47:19.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello.
[02:47:19.280 --> 02:47:23.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, like, movies like The Nets and how that really didn't have anything to do with it, I don't think.
[02:47:23.300 --> 02:47:25.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was totally, like, oblivious to what was really going on.
[02:47:26.080 --> 02:47:27.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: It over-commercialized these things.
[02:47:27.580 --> 02:47:29.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: And hackers, I enjoyed.
[02:47:29.400 --> 02:47:32.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm, like, one of the only callers I think really enjoyed the movie.
[02:47:32.300 --> 02:47:32.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh-huh.
[02:47:32.480 --> 02:47:35.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not saying, I'm not a hacker myself, but I do use the Internet.
[02:47:35.780 --> 02:47:39.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I found it to be a movie that was, it was just there to be enjoyable.
[02:47:39.100 --> 02:47:39.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's all.
[02:47:39.640 --> 02:47:44.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it informed people that what, not what's going on, but that there's something out there, a different medium to understand.
[02:47:45.020 --> 02:47:45.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's all.
[02:47:45.600 --> 02:47:49.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I think that's, that's what the people who made the film would like to hear.
[02:47:49.280 --> 02:47:50.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that, they found it enjoyable.
[02:47:51.440 --> 02:47:57.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I mean, I don't, I mean, the plot and this lady calling in and saying, like, you know, the chauvinistic views of man, it has nothing to do with it.
[02:47:58.040 --> 02:48:00.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, just in everyday society, just get off that tip.
[02:48:00.760 --> 02:48:04.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, like, other things possibly, like, I mean, the plot was okay.
[02:48:04.620 --> 02:48:09.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, I don't like how they're saying how hackers break into things and stuff like that, because they don't.
[02:48:09.480 --> 02:48:14.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, some people do, but, I mean, like the guy said, the thing was curiosity is out there.
[02:48:14.380 --> 02:48:15.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's what it's about.
[02:48:15.140 --> 02:48:17.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that was the basics of what hackers are about, the curiosity.
[02:48:18.100 --> 02:48:19.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I don't know if you agree with that or not.
[02:48:20.100 --> 02:48:20.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.
[02:48:20.560 --> 02:48:22.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's really, you know, the common denominator.
[02:48:23.420 --> 02:48:24.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: What kind of crowd did you see it with?
[02:48:25.580 --> 02:48:28.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: I saw it... I don't... I was tired.
[02:48:28.580 --> 02:48:31.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think everyone there was basically just dating, the whatever.
[02:48:31.420 --> 02:48:33.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Nobody was hackers in the audience, I doubt it.
[02:48:33.600 --> 02:48:34.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And did they seem to like it?
[02:48:35.660 --> 02:48:38.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: No one really understood the jokes in the movie, and some people would just...
[02:48:38.820 --> 02:48:41.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was like only ten people in the movie theater when I saw it, actually.
[02:48:41.620 --> 02:48:42.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ten people for a new film?
[02:48:42.960 --> 02:48:44.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it was in a village.
[02:48:44.780 --> 02:48:50.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I didn't like how they portrayed New York City, how these kids... and they totally overdid that.
[02:48:50.240 --> 02:48:55.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like, kids in high school, and how they dress, and how they look, and how there's this club for, like, cyberspace people.
[02:48:56.180 --> 02:48:57.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: I didn't like that at all.
[02:48:57.240 --> 02:49:00.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: I thought that was ridiculous, because I don't see anything like that in New York City, and I go to clubs, and I use...
[02:49:00.860 --> 02:49:02.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, Fiber, he doesn't know about the club.
[02:49:02.660 --> 02:49:02.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh.
[02:49:03.720 --> 02:49:04.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait, it's elite ones.
[02:49:04.600 --> 02:49:05.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're not elite.
[02:49:06.140 --> 02:49:08.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, I never said I was elite, but is there a club like that?
[02:49:08.660 --> 02:49:09.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Because I would like to go to it.
[02:49:09.600 --> 02:49:12.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we always go to clubs like that, but we don't let just anybody in.
[02:49:12.700 --> 02:49:13.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, right out of it.
[02:49:13.560 --> 02:49:14.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, seriously, is there a club like that?
[02:49:14.880 --> 02:49:18.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we usually roll a blade over after the show, but...
[02:49:18.560 --> 02:49:27.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, no, I mean, it seemed like it was, like, East Village thing, and I know there's, like, places that, like, one-time things where you have computer graphics, special effects kind of thing, but not anything like that.
[02:49:27.820 --> 02:49:29.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: That just seemed like it was totally, like, a...
[02:49:29.460 --> 02:49:30.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was fantasy.
[02:49:30.480 --> 02:49:31.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of it was fantasy.
[02:49:32.440 --> 02:49:35.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the thing is, you know, the fantasy part, was it at all believable?
[02:49:36.500 --> 02:49:37.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it was believable.
[02:49:38.080 --> 02:49:39.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was totally believable.
[02:49:39.560 --> 02:49:40.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: I didn't like the villain in there.
[02:49:40.840 --> 02:49:43.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think at the ending, you guys are asking people what they think about the ending.
[02:49:43.720 --> 02:49:45.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think at the ending, he should have got away.
[02:49:45.220 --> 02:49:46.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: He did get away in the original.
[02:49:46.760 --> 02:49:51.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: In the original scene, which they shot and which was in the script, he did get away.
[02:49:51.400 --> 02:49:52.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know why they changed it.
[02:49:52.640 --> 02:49:53.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it was stupid.
[02:49:53.300 --> 02:49:54.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: The guy that comes on with a plane, come on.
[02:49:54.880 --> 02:50:01.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, now, you tell me, does the Secret Service take the plane all the way to where he was going and then take him all the way back?
[02:50:01.260 --> 02:50:05.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or do they turn the plane around midway and take everybody back so that they can arrest this guy?
[02:50:05.660 --> 02:50:08.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why don't they just arrest him when he gets on the plane, not when he's up in the air?
[02:50:08.780 --> 02:50:10.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: They had to make it dramatic so you can laugh.
[02:50:10.460 --> 02:50:11.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was supposed to make a joke.
[02:50:11.220 --> 02:50:13.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: And why would he have a computer on a plane anyway?
[02:50:13.940 --> 02:50:14.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: What was he doing?
[02:50:14.540 --> 02:50:16.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Checking his bank account or something?
[02:50:16.300 --> 02:50:17.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, he's obsessed.
[02:50:17.440 --> 02:50:18.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: He's obsessed, yeah.
[02:50:18.260 --> 02:50:18.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: That was kind of funny.
[02:50:18.820 --> 02:50:20.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: I didn't like the fact that he was rolling around on a skateboarder.
[02:50:20.860 --> 02:50:23.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: They make these hackers seem like they're overgrown kids.
[02:50:23.940 --> 02:50:29.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: And all they do is they use a computer just to go destroy things.
[02:50:29.360 --> 02:50:30.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know how kids do things?
[02:50:30.640 --> 02:50:33.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: They just do things out of spite, and that's what they made it seem like.
[02:50:33.600 --> 02:50:39.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: He was an overgrown kid driving around on a skateboard, and he was just going around breaking things and stealing money from people on his computer.
[02:50:39.300 --> 02:50:40.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I thought that was ridiculous.
[02:50:40.620 --> 02:50:40.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[02:50:41.360 --> 02:50:43.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, listen, thanks very much for the input.
[02:50:43.540 --> 02:50:43.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, bye.
[02:50:44.040 --> 02:50:44.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take care.
[02:50:45.340 --> 02:50:47.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of strong feelings out there, I think.
[02:50:47.340 --> 02:50:50.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and I see the points in all of them, I think.
[02:50:50.840 --> 02:50:51.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[02:50:51.460 --> 02:50:51.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on?
[02:50:52.120 --> 02:50:52.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yes.
[02:50:52.740 --> 02:50:52.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[02:50:53.200 --> 02:50:53.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[02:50:53.940 --> 02:50:54.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hey.
[02:50:55.120 --> 02:50:55.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: How you doing?
[02:50:55.700 --> 02:50:56.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is Micah.
[02:50:57.120 --> 02:50:57.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Micah, how are you?
[02:50:57.960 --> 02:50:58.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[02:50:58.640 --> 02:51:00.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: I got a question for you guys.
[02:51:00.240 --> 02:51:12.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: As far as when you said that you guys had consulted for the movie, and I was wondering about that part where, what's his name, the King of Nine X, whatever his name was, when he was in jail.
[02:51:12.400 --> 02:51:13.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was Phantom Freak.
[02:51:13.600 --> 02:51:14.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Phantom Freak, right.
[02:51:14.780 --> 02:51:18.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: When he was in jail, and he had that one phone call that he could make.
[02:51:19.720 --> 02:51:29.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: And so they let him over to the phone, and, you know, he goes over there, and the guy, you know, I guess he dialed, I can't remember if the cop dialed the number in for him or not.
[02:51:29.520 --> 02:51:29.960]  [SPEAKER_28]: Yeah, he did.
[02:51:30.120 --> 02:51:39.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: But then he locked the phone up, and he was able to just, you know, use the flash hook to dial wherever he wanted to go.
[02:51:39.360 --> 02:51:39.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[02:51:39.580 --> 02:51:44.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was wondering if you guys had anything to do with that, if you, like, if they suggested they put that in there or something like that.
[02:51:45.080 --> 02:51:54.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I was thinking perhaps you fiber with your in-jail experience, if that ever, if you ever had the chance to do that.
[02:51:54.460 --> 02:51:56.220]  [SPEAKER_28]: Did you ever do that to a partner in prison?
[02:51:56.360 --> 02:51:57.180]  [SPEAKER_28]: No, I didn't have to.
[02:51:57.380 --> 02:52:01.960]  [SPEAKER_28]: I mean, when I was in jail, you could just make, it was a normal payphone, you could just make a call on it.
[02:52:02.060 --> 02:52:04.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you could only call designated numbers, though.
[02:52:04.560 --> 02:52:04.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, okay.
[02:52:04.920 --> 02:52:06.100]  [SPEAKER_28]: No, I'm not talking about in prison.
[02:52:06.100 --> 02:52:07.900]  [SPEAKER_28]: I'm talking about in jail, like where he was.
[02:52:07.900 --> 02:52:10.120]  [SPEAKER_28]: In jail, there were normal payphones.
[02:52:11.240 --> 02:52:14.120]  [SPEAKER_28]: And they were, obviously, they were collect-call-only phones.
[02:52:14.260 --> 02:52:17.180]  [SPEAKER_28]: They didn't have coin slots on them, but at least there were NYNEX phones.
[02:52:17.660 --> 02:52:19.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, why didn't he just call the number to start with?
[02:52:20.000 --> 02:52:21.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why did he have to flash it?
[02:52:22.580 --> 02:52:24.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: What was the logic behind that?
[02:52:24.200 --> 02:52:25.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: He went to the operator, and he just...
[02:52:25.920 --> 02:52:28.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, he flashed the switch hook ten times to get the operator.
[02:52:28.520 --> 02:52:34.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, okay, but why, now, the guy in the prison or jail was connecting him to something.
[02:52:34.220 --> 02:52:35.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: What did he think he was connecting him to?
[02:52:35.480 --> 02:52:35.480]  Yeah, I don't know.
[02:52:35.480 --> 02:52:36.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: They never resolved that.
[02:52:36.700 --> 02:52:40.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess every movie's going to have its little parts that, you know...
[02:52:40.660 --> 02:52:40.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:52:40.940 --> 02:52:45.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: What really annoyed me was, when they did the red box thing, they used Touch-Tones.
[02:52:45.940 --> 02:52:46.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they had to change the tones.
[02:52:46.500 --> 02:52:47.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: They didn't use real red box tones.
[02:52:48.060 --> 02:52:52.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm wondering if NYNEX pressured them not to use real red box tones.
[02:52:52.440 --> 02:52:54.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think, you know, if you...
[02:52:54.060 --> 02:53:01.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, if you listen to red box tones, I mean, to someone who doesn't know what they are, they're not going to be very impressive.
[02:53:01.260 --> 02:53:04.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they will recognize those sounds, because everyone's heard them.
[02:53:05.080 --> 02:53:08.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right, but on a movie screen, I mean, what do you think sounds better?
[02:53:08.380 --> 02:53:11.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: The monotone red box, or a doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo?
[02:53:11.540 --> 02:53:12.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: But does it really matter?
[02:53:12.740 --> 02:53:15.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I mean, they hear little beeps, and okay, they're not impressed, they're not impressed.
[02:53:15.860 --> 02:53:16.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's nothing lost.
[02:53:17.620 --> 02:53:19.820]  [SPEAKER_28]: Well, Raphael actually did want to use the real tones.
[02:53:20.260 --> 02:53:23.600]  [SPEAKER_28]: And he said that the legal people at MGM made them take it out.
[02:53:23.720 --> 02:53:24.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, is that what happened?
[02:53:24.540 --> 02:53:24.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[02:53:24.680 --> 02:53:25.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: I figured it was something like that.
[02:53:26.040 --> 02:53:26.160]  [SPEAKER_28]: Yeah.
[02:53:26.500 --> 02:53:27.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's too bad.
[02:53:27.220 --> 02:53:35.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: But at least, at least the film gives you everything you need to know to use a red box, and they show you how simple it is.
[02:53:35.080 --> 02:53:41.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just hold the tape recorder up to the phone, drop a recorder in, record the sound of those beeps, and then play it.
[02:53:41.680 --> 02:53:42.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's how it works.
[02:53:42.500 --> 02:53:43.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's how easy it is.
[02:53:43.200 --> 02:53:43.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's why Bernie S.
[02:53:43.960 --> 02:53:47.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: is in prison for six months with no bail, because of stupid technology like that.
[02:53:48.680 --> 02:53:49.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Just one other thing.
[02:53:50.740 --> 02:53:58.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess I wish the movie was more, if it showed more what hackers did on a day-to-day basis.
[02:53:58.380 --> 02:54:02.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: I like how they went out and just explained the whole red box thing.
[02:54:02.520 --> 02:54:19.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: I wish they did the same thing for like, oh, I don't know, trashing for credit card numbers, or if they did the same thing for how people will hand-hack to get long-distance access codes, you know, back when they were just six digits, or, you know, maybe if,
[02:54:19.480 --> 02:54:23.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: you know, for those companies that still do have access codes that are just six digits.
[02:54:23.620 --> 02:54:29.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: I wish they did more of that type of thing, you know, but, I mean, that might go more into the...
[02:54:29.080 --> 02:54:30.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I agree.
[02:54:30.160 --> 02:54:34.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think they should have gotten into more of the actual technical hacking things.
[02:54:34.480 --> 02:54:36.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I think there's still a lot of room in there.
[02:54:36.640 --> 02:54:50.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think now if they, like after these movies get made, I think, you know, down the line, hopefully someone will do one that, you know, just gets in a little bit more, I don't know, I guess you could say cerebral or something, you know, not as flashy, but,
[02:54:50.800 --> 02:54:52.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: you know, more on the technical side.
[02:54:52.740 --> 02:54:53.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[02:54:53.240 --> 02:54:55.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And how would you have changed the ending?
[02:54:56.960 --> 02:54:57.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh...
[02:54:57.280 --> 02:54:58.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you don't have to change the ending, by the way.
[02:54:58.940 --> 02:54:59.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some people might like the ending.
[02:55:00.400 --> 02:55:02.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, the ending pretty much sucked.
[02:55:02.280 --> 02:55:18.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, I mean, you guys have told me every time you saw it, I mean, how many times you guys see it five or six million times and how the ending sucked and all that, but, um, I think, I don't know, I would have liked to see the guy either get away or, I don't know,
[02:55:18.220 --> 02:55:19.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: have him killed or something like that, you know?
[02:55:19.760 --> 02:55:20.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: That would be something.
[02:55:21.180 --> 02:55:22.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sure, Fisher Stevens would appreciate that.
[02:55:24.560 --> 02:55:33.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, um, yeah, I mean, since the way the movie was going, I don't know how it could have been changed, you know, very much to make it a spectacular ending.
[02:55:33.840 --> 02:55:38.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, because it was, you know, I thought the main characters were pretty boring, you know?
[02:55:38.720 --> 02:55:50.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: I thought the supporting ones, the supporting characters were, you know, a lot better, gave more to the movie, but, of course, you know, I mean, they were just getting beat all around, putting to jail, you know, doing all this.
[02:55:51.340 --> 02:55:51.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[02:55:51.840 --> 02:55:59.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, you know, as far as, like, the main characters, it wasn't, you know, I don't see what you could have done to make it just like, boom, you know, this great ending at the end, so.
[02:55:59.680 --> 02:56:00.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, well, so thanks for the input.
[02:56:01.140 --> 02:56:02.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, talk to you guys later.
[02:56:02.100 --> 02:56:02.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take care.
[02:56:02.840 --> 02:56:04.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're just about out of time here.
[02:56:04.540 --> 02:56:06.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I want to thank everyone who called in.
[02:56:06.740 --> 02:56:09.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we have about two minutes left.
[02:56:09.620 --> 02:56:12.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: So if anyone still wants to call in and pledge, please do.
[02:56:12.520 --> 02:56:14.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[02:56:14.240 --> 02:56:15.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've made it to 3205.
[02:56:16.000 --> 02:56:20.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: I want to thank everyone who pledged for making this successful.
[02:56:20.880 --> 02:56:26.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And again, 212-279-3400 is our number if you want to take advantage of anything that we might have left over.
[02:56:28.400 --> 02:56:29.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Stay tuned to WBAI.
[02:56:29.820 --> 02:56:32.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: New York will be on again next week at 10 o'clock.
[02:56:33.400 --> 02:56:37.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then the week after that, starting our new time, Tuesday nights at 8.
[02:56:38.520 --> 02:56:40.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: We were going to update the Bernie S. situation.
[02:56:40.820 --> 02:56:41.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, well, here's the update.
[02:56:42.100 --> 02:56:42.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Basically, Bernie S.
[02:56:42.980 --> 02:56:50.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: had to plead guilty because pleading innocent and facing trial by jury just seemed too risky.
[02:56:50.620 --> 02:56:53.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I understand perfectly why he had to do that.
[02:56:53.300 --> 02:56:56.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the advantage is that he may be out as early as tomorrow.
[02:56:57.140 --> 02:56:58.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Tomorrow is when he is sentenced.
[02:56:58.880 --> 02:57:03.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the disadvantage is, of course, that this law still remains, in effect, unchallenged.
[02:57:03.340 --> 02:57:06.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And hopefully we can challenge that over the next few months.
[02:57:06.540 --> 02:57:09.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Stay tuned to Off the Hook over the weeks ahead.
[02:57:09.400 --> 02:57:11.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll update you as to how that goes.
[02:57:11.160 --> 02:57:19.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now let's leave with the song that I think is becoming a tradition as far as radio marathons and things like that.
[02:57:20.240 --> 02:57:25.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Tells you how radio is operated in most places, but not here.
[02:57:29.940 --> 02:57:31.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll see you again next week.
[02:57:31.620 --> 02:57:32.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, thanks to everybody who called in.
[02:57:33.360 --> 02:57:34.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take care.
[02:57:34.340 --> 02:57:35.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is Off the Hook.
[02:57:35.400 --> 02:57:35.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good night.