The black liberation struggle, can the black man march on Washington without the black
woman?
For answers to these questions, you're invited to a discussion and fundraising event sponsored
by Third World Viewpoint Magazine on Sunday, October 15th, 3 p.m. at the Ifetayo Cultural
Arts Facility, 929 Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn.
Speakers will be Tanaquil Jones, Joan Gibbs, and Michael Fellwell, author of The Harder
They Come, poetry reading by New York's finest revolutionary poets, and live steel pan music.
Be there for this important event sponsored by Third World Viewpoint Magazine, Sunday,
October 15th, at 3 p.m. at the Ifetayo Cultural Arts Facility, 929 Flatbush Avenue, Brooklyn.
For further information, call 718-453-5473.
That's 718-453-5473.
Be there.
And it's two minutes after 8 o'clock.
The beauty of radio is you have no idea what's going on in the background.
It's actually three minutes after 8 o'clock, and there's a story behind that, but we'll
get to that in just a little bit.
It's time for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving.
Now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
And a very good evening to everybody.
This is Off the Hook.
The program talks about technology and telephones and the internet and all kinds of other fun
things like that.
And in case I sound a little bit out of breath, it's because, well, this was the night I almost
didn't make it because I don't know what's going on out there.
I don't know if anyone's in a car right now in Queens somewhere listening to this.
But if you are, then you must know that there's something bizarre going on out there where
everyone for some reason, maybe it's something religious, they're all moving five miles an
hour.
And there's no reason.
No one's going anywhere.
The Pope's gone, right?
He left.
He's out of here.
There's no parade.
That was yesterday.
So I don't know what the big deal is.
But about 10 or 15 minutes ago, I was stuck there in Queens.
And let me just say, where there's a will, there's a way.
You can break out if you really want to.
And I can't say you'll be entirely law-abiding if you do.
But sometimes there is a higher authority to answer to.
And that authority, of course, is BAI and what happens to you if you're late for a show.
So that's neither here nor there.
Okay, so while I catch my breath, we're going to read a few stories that sort of encompasses
the news as far as technological mishaps.
This would sort of qualify as a technological mishap, except there really wasn't anything
technological that I could see at play here.
I don't know, maybe some computer fouled up someplace and the traffic lights were out
of sync or something like that.
Although I was on expressways and highways that didn't have traffic lights.
I don't really understand what was going on.
This happened to me once before and the reason was because of a broken red light that was
completely stuck for minutes at a time and everybody felt compelled to obey it.
In this particular case, I just don't know what the reason is.
But that's enough about that.
If for any reason you ever hear a long gap after Jerry Brown, well that's because I'm
stuck someplace and I can't get out.
It's the worst feeling in the world when you're trapped and you see the clock ticking.
Speaking of clocks, we called the speaking clock, I guess is how they call it in England,
we called a demonstration line last week and this week we have some, I guess, alternatives.
You ever wonder how unfair it is where you have to call up New York Telephone's or 9x's
version of the time and you have to pay 40 cents to find out what time it is?
I mean, that's not fair.
So we did a little bit of research over the past couple of days and we found some alternatives.
That's right, alternatives to the time.
Now ordinarily you'd pick up the phone and you'd call a 976 number and every time you
do this you have to pay 40 cents.
It used to be, I think it used to be about 15 cents, then it was 25 cents, then it was
35 cents, now it's 40 cents, who knows, it might be a dollar by next year.
But you're simply asking for the time.
You know, you walk up to a stranger, you ask them, what time is it?
They don't charge you.
You used to be able to call the operator and ask them what time is it and they wouldn't
charge you.
Now they tell you very politely to call the 976 number.
Well, there's a couple of ways around it.
Of course, you can always call the long distance operator and ask her or him what time it is
in, say, London.
And if you know what the time difference is between here and London, then you just have
to do a little bit of arithmetic and you've got the time.
So it's a bit of work, but it's really not that big a deal.
Okay, let's make a telephone call here.
And those of you who are really clever will be able to figure out what it is I'm dialing.
Okay, that's a tone that we have to enter a special security code here at BAI, but you
won't have to do that from your home.
At the tone, zero hours, ten minutes, coordinated universal time.
Okay, enough of that.
You can't get any more coordinated than coordinated universal time.
That is the time.
Okay, there's no kidding around here.
There's no demonstration time like we had last week.
That's the time.
That's the atomic clock ticking there.
And we just got in for the price of a regular phone call, which actually a regular long
distance call, because this is in the 303 area code.
303, you say?
Oh, my God, it's a long distance call.
You're calling Colorado, for God's sake.
Well, calm down.
For God's sake, calm down.
Let's find out from AT&T the source of information.
We're going to call AT&T is what you have to do.
Because I don't think we can get an operator direct on this line, we're going to ask them
how much it costs to call that number.
Place a card call, press one.
To place a collect or operator assisted call, press two.
For AT&T customer service, press three.
For directory assistance, press four now.
Okay, we're going to interrupt this just for a moment, because I think we might have Bernie
S on the phone.
Do we have?
Yes, we do.
He's locked out.
You have a collect call from Bernie S.
Okay, that means he's still in prison.
Please go ahead.
You are now connected.
Bernie S, are you there?
I am here.
Okay, now, I haven't had a chance to update the folks on your...
Actually, I don't have an update on you, but basically, for those of us that have never
listened to this program before, Bernie S has been incarcerated since March of this
year, basically for possessing a red box.
Today was the day you were going to be sentenced, and I can see you're still calling from a
prison, so tell us what happened today.
I was indeed sentenced.
In fact, I just got back from the federal building in Philadelphia about half an hour
ago.
I received a verbal tongue lashing from Judge J.C.
Waldman, federal circuit judge in Philadelphia.
And among other things, he accused me of having a strange hobby of collecting information.
The bottom line being that I was sentenced to serve seven months incarceration, and the
downside of that is seven months of my life will be given up to the government.
The upside of that is that this coming Saturday will make seven months.
Okay, well, that's the most important thing right now, so Saturday is the day.
Saturday is the day of my release from federal custody.
However, there's a loophole the government has in all this, and that is the county of
Northampton in Pennsylvania has something called a detainer that they issued for me.
They have an interest in taking me into custody as well for a probation violation.
This federal crime that I've committed, possessing a modified touch-tone dialer and
possessing computer software, which could be used to program cellular phones, is a
federal crime and as such is a violation of a county probation that I was on from 1993
for a tampering with evidence charge, and that involved the removal of batteries from
a tone dialer while police were in a building, and then later they confiscated this dialer
and accused me of tampering with it by taking the batteries out of it.
So my probation violation will keep me incarcerated until this county judge determines what he
wants to do with me for this violation of that probation.
Oh boy, so this throws a whole other thing into this.
Do you think the county is going to want to incarcerate you for this?
They may, they may not.
It's up to that judge.
This particular judge is known as a harsh sentencing judge.
Yeah, but is this harsh sentencing judge going to know that you've been in prison for seven
months without bail?
I certainly will make that point to him, that your honor, I've never served time in jail
before and I've been locked up for seven months, and I've learned my lesson not to fool around
with tone dialers anymore.
Well, you're a real hardened criminal here.
First you remove the batteries from a tone dialer, and then you have one on your possession.
That's right.
I mean, what's going to happen next?
You actually got to try to use one?
It's that slippery slope, Emanuel.
You start on this stuff, and who knows where it ends?
It's like an addiction.
Wow, well at this stage, by the time you're 80, maybe you will have made a free phone
call.
Unbelievable.
So how do you feel?
Kind of anticlimactic about the whole thing.
I mean, I knew I wasn't going to...
My sentencing guidelines were going to be either zero to six months or two to eight
months, the latter range being if my sentence was enhanced by two points for something that
they call more than minimal planning, and evidently the judge decided that my activities
involved more than minimal planning.
Interestingly enough, everything that was cited in the pre-sentence investigation report,
all the activity that involved more than minimal planning was activity which the government
stated occurred prior to the statute's enactment that I was charged with.
So all of the activity that I was penalized for doing more than minimal planning in
doing all occurred before this was illegal to do.
But they enhanced me with it anyway, so they gave me the extra two months, which gives
me a total of seven.
So anyhow, the story is more complicated and convoluted than anyone could imagine, and
I'll be writing about this in the near future.
The past month I've been under a sort of a self-imposed gag order at the behest of my
attorney who advised me not to talk about the case prior to my sentencing because anything
I said on this program, which we know is being monitored by the Secret Service at this moment...
Yeah, I think they finally figured out how to tune in.
They were listening to Z-100 the last few weeks.
Ah, well, I'm glad they got their dials straight.
Yeah.
...would get back to the prosecutor and to the judge.
So I didn't want to say anything that could be construed as being non-reticent, non-apologetic
or the least bit trying to justify my actions as being anything but heinous.
I suppose helping for them to be apologetic would be way too much.
Not even...
That's something they wouldn't even consider.
What are the kinds of things that this judge say to you?
Anything else that's...
Well, he was extremely concerned.
He sentenced me to, in addition to the seven months of imprisonment, which I've already
done, he fined me a thousand dollars.
He could have fined me a lot more.
One of the federal government's provisions for fines is that, in addition to a statutory
fine, which in my case could have been up to $5,000 per count, I was charged with three
counts of various things, possessing software, hardware, et cetera, I could have been fined
up to $15,000, plus I could have been fined for the government's cost of incarcerating
me all this time as well, plus all the time, all the money involved in my supervised release,
which is sort of like a federal version of probation.
I added all that up.
That could have been as much as $18,000 on top of the $15,000.
So I could have been fined like $33,000, and he just fined me a thousand.
So I feel fortunate.
Actually, though, you've been fined more than that because you have lawyer's fees, right?
My legal fees will be in excess of $25,000, some of which I've already paid with my
life savings, which is now zero, but I still will owe probably over $15,000 in legal expenses.
Well, we'll have to organize something on the internet for that.
Maybe I should start my own lottery.
Nope, that's racketeering.
I forget I said that.
And this is conspiracy, what we're doing right now.
So...
Telephone fraud as well.
Right.
Tell me, Bernie, do you want to take some calls?
Sure.
Are you able to?
Okay, then let's just give out the phone number, 212-279-3400, the
just-sentenced Bernie S is on the phone and can answer any questions that you might have
concerning that, and also, I guess, concerning other technical things.
We don't have FiberOptic with us today, unfortunately.
He had his own crisis.
I almost didn't make it here today because of a traffic jam, which seems kind of minor,
but believe me, when you're stuck in one, it's not.
And Fiber had a hard drive crash on him.
Darn.
Yeah, and you should say that in sobering tones because when you have a hard drive crash,
it's probably one of the worst things in the world next to the death of a loved one.
Because sometimes you just lose things that you can never get back.
Yes.
You know, and that's kind of sad.
Kind of like virginity.
Yeah, that's true, but it's kind of different, too.
But we won't get into that.
Also, I'd like to...
You were familiar with the Bill SF case, were you not, Bernie?
Very.
Well, not very, but somewhat.
But you know what happened to him, right?
He went out to California and he was arrested out there?
Okay.
I have some good news on that front.
He has been released and he will be going back to Amsterdam next week.
I didn't hear what the exact charges were, although I heard he had been...
Well, I'm not sure what the exact charges were, but the thing is his name was on a list
because he had violated probation by leaving the country six years ago
and he went back to California simply to visit his parents.
And for some reason or another, he was picked up by the police
and they found his name on the computer.
And you know, it could have been.
It could have been three more years in prison.
You know, and that's not a very good thing to have happen
when you come back to your country after not being here for a while.
He's very fortunate they let him go,
because the federal government doesn't cut people breaks, I've found.
No, that's true.
Well, actually, you know, I think one of the keys here
was that the federal government wasn't involved.
I think this was strictly local.
And that's why I'm a little bit optimistic, more optimistic in your case,
since you're dealing with local authorities.
Maybe you can reach them somehow.
Maybe they will have heard about this.
There's no bargaining with federal government.
I found that to be true of federal agencies.
You can bargain with them, but it's totally one-sided bargaining.
They expect you to give up everything and they give up nothing.
And that's their idea of a fair bargain,
as anyone who's gone through the federal judicial system can attest to.
Right.
Well, fortunately, your dealings with the federal government are over, right?
There's nothing more you have to do?
No, unfortunately, I'll be dealing with him for the next three years
under supervised release.
I will have to report to a federal probation officer
on a weekly basis for the first six months,
then on a bi-monthly basis for the next six months,
and then on a monthly basis from then on until three years has expired.
Unbelievable.
So you basically have the same deal as fiber optic.
No, they can put the judge or the probation officer
can put special restrictions on one's conduct
during the period of their supervised release.
She told me today, it's a woman,
she told me that one of the conditions she was considering
was that I not attend any 2600 meetings
and that I not associate with any known computer hackers.
Oh, so it's not just felons anymore.
It's people that are known as hackers.
Well, computer hackers.
Now, I asked her, well, what do you mean by a computer hacker?
Yeah, let's hear that.
Well, you know.
You know, that's it.
That's incredible.
Now, how about Steve Wozniak?
If he drops by, you can't talk to him?
If that's one of the requirements or stipulations of my supervised release,
he would have to be on that list,
because as everyone knows,
in fact, interestingly enough,
he financed the development of Apple Computer Corporation
and selling of blue boxes.
Yeah.
I don't know how many people are aware of that piece of trivia.
So not only is he a known hacker, but he's a known phone freak.
So it's double jeopardy talking to him.
All right, 212-279-3400, give us a call.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Go ahead.
Hi.
Hi, Bernice.
Hi.
This is Kara.
Hi.
I thought that was your voice when you said hello.
Yeah, how are you doing?
Well, I've been better.
But, you know, I'm soon to be out of federal custody.
And that's a good thing.
Yeah.
So you're not going to be able to visit with any known people, huh?
Which means...
Gee, I can't even see you anymore.
Yeah, gee, whoa, no, not that.
So are you going to go to...
What I wanted to know is,
are you going to keep doing your consulting,
or are you going to try to find something different to do with your life?
Something...
What did you say?
Something better to do with my life?
Not better.
Definitely not better, different.
Something different to do with my life.
Gee, I don't know.
It'd be hard to imagine doing anything else.
But I'm sure I could become a game warden or something.
Maybe you should become a probation officer.
I don't think I qualify.
Maybe I could be a...
There's a lot of them popping up, I know that.
Yeah.
Let's see.
If my supervised...
If my probation officer does not stipulate that I
not be employed in the computer communications field,
which is a possibility,
they may put that restriction on me.
They have the power to restrict you for certain types of occupations.
Then I plan to go back into the computer consulting business.
If I'm prohibited from doing that,
I'll obviously have to start flipping hamburgers at McDonald's or something else.
I doubt you'll have to resort to that.
Okay, thanks for the call.
Thank you.
All right, take care.
It's just incredible that we're talking along these terms
to somebody that was...
In the worst possible impression,
was guilty of nothing more than having a dialer on their possession,
something that could be used to make phone calls,
and was never actually accused of doing something like...
Something that we consider to be illegal.
It's interesting to know the government never charged me
with having committed any fraud whatsoever,
even though the Title 18, Section 1029,
which I'm charged with violating two subsections of,
is entitled Fraud and Related Activity Involving Access Devices.
And according to the government's own definitions,
I neither committed fraud nor did I possess access devices.
But these two or three new statutes that were added to Section 1029
with the Communications Law Enforcement Act that was passed last October
can still make it a felony to possess hardware or software
that can be used to modify a telecommunications instrument,
and it's also a felony to possess a modified telecommunications instrument,
knowing that that instrument could be used
to commit telecommunications fraud
or unauthorized access to telecommunications services.
Okay, that's your warning.
You're going to be able to call us back?
I'll call you back, yeah.
Okay, why don't you do that right now,
so we know you can get through.
Okay, I'll hang up and call you right back.
Okay.
We have the text for that federal statute, 1029,
and it's available to anybody that emails over to us at 2600.com.
In fact, email to Emanuel at 2600.com,
say you're interested in seeing that statute,
and we'll mail it right back to you.
If you're interested in sending mail to Bernie S,
actually, it won't be forwarded to him at this stage
since he's leaving on Saturday,
but it will be forwarded to him at some point after that.
You can send mail to Bernie S,
that's B-E-R-N-I-S, I'm sorry,
B-E-R-N-I-E-S at 2600.com,
that's 2600.com,
and send whatever mail you want.
If there's something that you'd like to work out in the future,
hang on, let me pick up this phone.
Hi.
Okay, here's the computer.
This is Locktel.
You have a collect call from...
Well, he didn't say his name this time.
...to accept the call.
Okay, we accepted.
Please go ahead.
You are now connected.
This will be the last call you get from Locktel.
And you didn't say your name this time, either.
Have you lost your identity?
I said Bernie S.
Oh, it didn't come through.
Not surprising.
Yeah, well, your name has been erased.
You are now a number.
All right, I was just giving out the email address to the folks
and saying that we weren't going to forward it to you until you got out,
since it probably wouldn't make it there in time anyway.
Thank you.
Yeah, and if people want to write to Bernie S
for any other type of thing,
if perhaps you want to donate to his defense fund,
which I think we should start, since you're out so much money,
that's one way to get a hold of him.
And soon he'll be able to write back.
Are you allowed to use the internet, or is that too much?
Oh, that's verboten here.
No, I don't mean there.
Oh, you mean after I'm out?
Yeah, when you get out.
Well, it depends on my probation officer.
She hasn't come up with the stipulations for the supervised release yet,
but I'm hoping she doesn't have the understanding of what the internet is
and doesn't think to put that as one of the restrictions.
Okay, well, we'll just have to see.
Let's take some more phone calls, see who's out there.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Hi, Emanuel.
You changed the showtime on me.
I didn't change the showtime.
It was changed on me, and I was told to report at this hour.
But we announced it many, many times,
and we put out that front page ad in the Times,
and we got everything, you know, I think we got the word out.
Well, I was out of the country for most of the summer.
Really? You didn't see the blimp or anything like that?
Sorry, but thank God I donated money to WVAI a couple months ago, getting the folio.
Yeah, well, that does help keep us on the air.
Well, I've been sort of lost on the Bernie S issue
because I've been out of the country for so long.
I was just interested in a little quick update of that, get me up to speed.
All right, Bernie, I guess you're better off saying exactly what happened to you than me.
Well, how much have you heard of the program so far?
Have you heard everything I've said so far?
I've heard most of everything.
Okay, well, my federal sentence was decided by a judge today to be seven months,
and I have served six months and 26 days, I guess.
So I will be released from federal custody in four days, hopefully.
However, there's a county probation violation that this charge is a violation of.
It's for a misdemeanor.
But in any case, I have to face that charge.
So I will not be released into the free world immediately.
I'll be picked up by sheriffs from this Northampton County,
and then a county judge will decide on my fate there.
And what charge?
I don't know.
What charge is that?
It's a tampering with evidence charge stemming from
my removing batteries from a tone dialer that was in my possession back in 1993.
Police officer asked me what this thing was,
and I just told him it was a tone dialer,
and he put it on the table and said, wait here.
And I waited there.
And when he came back into the room a half an hour later after making some phone calls,
the batteries were no longer in the tone dialer.
Did he say to you specifically, do not remove the batteries from the phone?
He did not say that at all.
You know, the funniest part about this entire thing is,
you know, hopefully someday we're going to be able to look back on this and laugh at this.
I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.
Well, well, if not, you know, this country, I mean,
after the OJ verdict and everything else,
I have a very sad opinion of this entire country.
That's the problem with everything.
You should have stayed out of the country.
What country were you in?
I was in Europe.
I was in London, actually.
Well, things aren't a whole lot better over there.
Project for UCSD.
Yeah.
But all right.
Well, thanks for talking to me.
And I just want to give a quick shout out to Melanie and Alex.
Okay.
Thanks a lot.
Okay.
212-279-3400.
How did the, speaking of the OJ verdict, how did that come down in prison?
There was a din of applause and cheers and yells here.
It was amazing.
We all were crouched around the television set and waiting the jury's decision.
And of course, everyone here was ecstatic that the government actually lost one for a change.
I have my own opinions about his guilt or innocence.
I think you hit the nail right on the head there.
It's not so much, I don't think this case is so much about OJ being guilty or not.
It's the fact that the LAPD lost.
And the justice, the whole way that we handle justice in this country was shown to be really
what it is.
And whether justice was served or not, again, isn't the point.
People here were glad that a message was sent to the law enforcement community that
any case where police officers or law enforcement officers get involved with tampering with
evidence and perjury and things like that, that the jury isn't going to be willing to
hand down a guilty verdict anymore.
I hope that stays that way.
In my case, we had a similar situation where law enforcement officers perjured themselves,
which resulted in evidence being admitted in my case that would not otherwise have been
admitted.
And the case would have been thrown out had they been honest.
But in any case, they lied, and the judge believed them, and I ended up with a felony
conviction.
But I didn't have million-dollar lawyers to bring in the types of evidence that OJ could.
So the other thing it brings up is you've got to have a lot of money to get a really
good legal defense in this country.
There's just no way you're going to do it, even with $25,000, which is what my case cost.
You really need a lot more to get a first-class defense.
Absolutely.
That's the unfortunate truth.
Everything in this country seems to be a commodity of some sort, whether it's education or defense
or anything.
The more money you have, the more of a chance you'll get something that's worthy.
212-279-3400, we're talking with the just sentenced Bernie S., who hopefully this time
next week will be a free man.
But what do you expect?
I will definitely be in a county prison next week at this time.
My probation violation hearing for the removal of batteries from a tone dialer will be next
Friday.
So I'll try to call.
What time is the program next week?
Is it going to be a Tuesday at 8?
Same time, yeah.
We're on 8 to 9 every Tuesday.
Call from a different type.
I don't know what kind of inmate phone system they have.
It's not Locktel.
It's something else, just as hideous, probably.
Well, we'll get to sample another pay phone in an inmate system.
How exciting.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on.
Hi, I see you have this delay here.
Yes, we do.
Yeah.
It's for your protection.
Right.
See, somebody says, you know, a curse or something, right?
Yeah, something like that.
Yeah, I just had a question.
I've been calling and I have a question about your phone system.
How exactly does it work?
I call, it rings.
It keeps on ringing.
It's not busy or anything.
Right.
And after 10 or 20 rings, I get this message, your party is not answering.
Well, now that tells me that you're calling from New Jersey.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Nice.
I can tell these things.
Well, if you were calling from New York, what would happen would be it would ring and ring
and ring maybe about three times as many times as what you hear.
And then you'd hear either a fast, busy, or just hang up.
That is the local central office kicking in a timer and saying, you've rung enough.
9x hasn't made any money from this phone call.
We're dumping it.
What you're getting instead, though, since you're using a long distance company to get
here from New Jersey, using the AT&T, MCI, or Sprint or something like that, that company
is kicking in with their own timer.
And that timer is traditionally a lot less.
You see?
So you're getting this recording from your long distance company.
Now, one way around that, which you might try, is 10NJB.
Oh, I've heard of that.
OK.
That will use your local company, and maybe the timer will be longer.
You can try that.
Either way?
The timer might be a little bit longer in that case.
You might get maybe 25, 30 rings.
But there's no way to get around that last bank of timeouts, which is done by the central
office, the 9x central office.
It's local to us.
I mean, all they have to do is change a couple of settings on a computer program, and it
could ring forever, like it used to.
But they won't do that.
Not profitable.
No, it's not profitable for them.
Even though it's only seven lines we're talking about here, they still won't do it.
Also, another thing, at the beginning of the program, you were mentioning about the time.
You can call a number to get the time?
Yes, we'll get back to that in a couple of minutes.
The best, easiest way is just to get a watch.
Well, yeah, I guess you could.
Boring.
What's the point?
I mean, going, calling, and saying, well, it's four hours earlier, or whatever.
Uh-huh.
Well, what time is it now?
What time is it now?
20, 838.
No, it's 835.
Well, my watch is three minutes past.
Well, there you go, then.
That's why I don't have a watch.
You see, you'd be ridiculed in society where time is important.
You know?
That's true.
I mean, if I came to this radio program, and I said, oh, it's 8 o'clock, but it was really 803,
you know, I wouldn't last long.
You've got to know exactly what time it is.
The best way to know exactly what time it is, I found, is calling the National Bureau of Standards,
actually now known as the National Institute of Standards and Technology,
out in Fort Collins, Colorado.
I can't believe you said that, because that's exactly what we just did.
You're so on top of things.
Yeah, that's, I mean, you probably know the phone number, right?
Area code 303.
I forget the rest of it, but I used to know it by heart.
But the prison has, uh...
How about, if I give you the exchange, maybe you can finish the rest.
Fine.
499.
Yeah, it is.
I honestly don't remember the rest.
Okay, it's 303-499-7111.
7111?
7111.
You're breaking up.
Yeah, it's because our phone system is terrible, but we're going to fix that.
Yeah.
We'll give out all those numbers a little later.
I have to compensate, though.
I'll warn people, the propagation delay between Fort Collins, Colorado,
to wherever you're calling from, could be a few milliseconds.
You're not really getting the exact time.
That's true.
And I have to subtract a few milliseconds,
depending on how many central offices and long-distance switching systems
your call is being routed through to compensate for the delay.
Well, God forbid.
God forbid a satellite.
In order to compensate, you know, when you're setting your watch,
to back it off a few, the millisecond hand,
back it off a few ticks to compensate for that.
And if you're going through a satellite, a couple of seconds.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Easily.
Thanks for the call.
Let's see who else is out there.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hi.
Hi, this is Scott.
Hey, Scott.
How are you?
How are you?
Hi, Bernie.
Hello.
How are you?
I'm better.
I'm in, uh, my spirits are up because I got sentenced today,
and I shouldn't be in jail much longer.
I've been following the show.
Listen, one thing I wanted to know about was,
you pleaded guilty, but you pleaded a special clause.
Yes, I made what is called a Zudik plea.
Zudik.
It's spelled Z-U-D-I-C or Z-U-D-I-C-K.
I'm not sure the correct spelling.
And it's named after whoever first made this kind of plea.
The plea allows, the plea agreement allows me to withdraw my guilty plea
to challenge the constitutionality of the statute that I'm charged with.
In my case, the statute is a brand new federal statute
that has not been tested in any federal court before.
In fact, it still hasn't really been tested
because no one has ever gone to trial on this charge before.
So I have some serious problems with how the statute is worded
because it could apply to a large percentage of the population.
Anyone who possesses a modified telecommunications instrument,
that is, it could be something as simple as a telephone
with a longer handset cord that you bought at Radio Shack
and added so you could walk further away from your telephone.
That is a modified telecommunications instrument.
And if you know that that telephone could be used to commit fraud,
i.e., you know, call somebody and defraud them
or punch in a code onto that phone that's not permitted,
knowing that and possessing it constitutes a felony under the statute.
So there's, the government didn't even define terms
like unauthorized use and unauthorized access
or altered or modified or the term telecommunications instrument
they didn't even define.
So all these terms are very vague and could be misused
to put almost anybody in jail.
So I have a problem with that.
I, if I get enough money together, I'm going to appeal.
And if it's overturned, then I won't have a felony conviction anymore.
I won't get the seven months of my life back,
but then maybe I can spare somebody else from having to go through this hell.
Right now, have you started any of the procedures of the Zutick plea?
I started talking about it with my lawyer today,
but over the next month or two, we're going to go into some of the fine points.
He's very interested in pursuing it though.
Okay. Does it run out?
Is there sort of like a statute of limitations?
I have two years.
Two years. Okay. That's good.
Well, listen, I hope that you'll come up as soon as you're out to New York.
I'd love to.
So we can throw you a parade.
Although we may have to go down there
because you might have some travel restrictions.
Oh brother.
Yeah. I mean, that's, that seems to be the case.
Almost everybody I know now is allowed to leave their town.
If you, if you ask permission and get it in writing,
you can, you can travel outside the,
I'll probably be restricted to the Eastern district of Pennsylvania.
Well, Emanuel's name will probably be on your list,
but I'm sure my name won't be.
That's right.
But so, but anyway, I hope to see you soon.
Well, if my name is on your list, I'll change my name.
That'll show them.
Listen, you take care of yourself and I hope to see you in the future.
Thanks, Scott.
Okay. Bye-bye.
Take care.
I'm told the load of the internet has,
has gone up by about 20% in the last few minutes
because so many people are emailing us to get the,
the section that we offered.
What's the actual name of that law called, Bernie?
I'm sorry?
Section 1029, is that?
Title United States Code, Title 18, Section 1029,
which is entitled fraud and related activity involving access devices.
And we're offering that code for free.
If you email us at Emanuel at 2600.com, we will send you that code.
Yes, we will send you the code right there over the internet, unencrypted.
What do you think of that?
And that's anybody that's interested in that.
Free codes here.
Yeah. And, um...
Not being aware of this law, by the way, is not an excuse, as I found out.
No, that's, that, that's true.
Um, I was not aware this law existed since it was only passed
a few weeks before I was arrested and charged with it.
So, um, but that's no excuse according to the government.
Even though the equipment I purchased before it was illegal to possess,
um, still doesn't count.
This code by, uh, uh, just, um, to, to draw their parallel a little further,
this code can be used to defraud the U.S. Constitution.
So be careful.
I will be cut off in about 30 seconds.
This is your last, your last 30 seconds.
Everyone at you.
And thanks everybody for writing me.
It has helped me, uh, deal with this, this hellish experience a lot.
So thanks a bunch.
All right. We'll hear from you next week from some other place.
Hopefully that'll be the only time we hear from you from there.
Yeah. All right.
Take care, Bernie.
All right. We'll talk to you later.
Bye-bye.
That was Bernie S. talking to us live from federal prison.
He won't be in federal prison next week.
We'll see where he is and, uh, what his, uh, particular case brings us by then.
We'll be back in, uh, just a minute or two.
And we'll be, uh, concluding our investigation of, uh, of time.
And those of you who want to call in and have any kind of, uh,
comments or adventures to relate, 212-279-3400.
And in our privacy update this week,
Southwestern Bell on Thursday yanked a plan to sell detailed information about
people to the businesses they call after criticism that it was a threat to customers' privacy.
The service would have given businesses the names, telephone numbers, and addresses of
callers along with demographic information compiled by Equifax.
That's a national credit reporting and information service.
Imagine that.
Make a phone call and they get a credit report on you.
The phone company withdrew its proposal for the caller Intellidata.
Caller Intellidata.
After Missouri Public Council Martha Hoganey persuaded utility regulators to put it on hold
and schedule a public hearing for November 16th.
We'll have to rent a stadium for that one, I guess.
We want to take more time to ensure that Missouri regulators have a comprehensive
understanding of just how stupid this is.
Well, she put it differently.
The parameters of the proposed service.
You know what she meant.
Southwestern Bell may again seek approval for the program later this year or in early 1996.
Consumers should not be forced to become statistics in a marketing study simply by
placing a telephone call.
Hoganey called the service an abuse of the company's local telephone monopoly and said
it smacks a big brother.
Bell wanted to sell businesses monthly reports about their callers.
The reports would include the date and time of each call, the caller's number, the caller's
name, their street address, their city, their state, their nine digit zip code, and whether
the number is a residence or business.
I was fully expecting to see a social security number in there somewhere, but I guess they'll
get to that.
Bell would get that information from its own computerized files.
The company also would give businesses a statistical profile of their customers as a
group using demographic information from Equifax.
And that information would include income, lifestyle, education, neighborhood, and other
information from census reports.
Bell maintained the democratic information, demographic information cannot be tied to a
specific caller.
The profiles are for general areas such as zip codes or census tracts and not for individuals.
And Bell already offers this service in Wichita and Topeka in Kansas and in Houston and Austin
in Texas.
Pretty frightening.
And it's only one of many.
Now let's get back to the time.
Time is very important to us all.
Time is money after all.
Well, here's a story, first of all, before we get to the time.
This happened in Virginia.
It involves Rosa H. Dixon.
She answered her telephone.
The caller requested an ambulance.
What would you do?
Well, it took only a moment for her to figure out that the caller had dialed 911 and got
Dixon instead.
When I realized what happened, I dialed 911 and I couldn't get 911.
And I couldn't get 911.
This lasted for half an hour beginning at 5 a.m.
Dixon then alerted the police of the problem.
I don't know how she did that.
Kept passing info on to the police.
Sort of became a conduit for them.
Two calls for rescue crews and one for police.
Police say they like the new system so much they're thinking of keeping it.
Bell Atlantic apparently messed up on maintenance following a system upgrade.
Well, well, well.
What else are you going to do?
Okay, the number we called before for time was out there in Colorado.
And we were trying to get through to AT&T.
So let's try that again.
1-800-CALL-AT&T so you can find out what the rates are.
Cost 40 cents for us to call the time here.
AT&T customer service, press 3.
For directory assistance, press 4 now.
I think we went 3.
Call, press 1.
For questions about your AT&T bill or about calling plans such as true reach savings, press 2.
For residential card customer servicing, press 3.
For corporate card servicing, press 4.
If you are interested in choosing AT&T as your long-distance carrier, press 5 now.
I don't want any of that.
I'm going to press 0 and see what happens.
Uh-oh.
AT&T, please dial the number you are calling or 0 for an operator now.
That's what I want, an operator now.
AT&T, how may I help you?
Yes, hello.
I need a rate.
I'm in area code 212279, and I want to place a direct call to area code 303499.
Okay, thank you.
Hold.
Thanks.
Okay, thank you, sir.
From 5 p.m. to 11 p.m., 17 and 17, each additional plus tax.
17 cents for the first minute and 17 for each additional.
Okay, how about after 11?
Okay.
What did you say?
After 11 p.m.?
14 and 14.
Okay, great.
Thank you very much.
Have a nice day.
You too.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
Sounds like the first time anyone ever said have a nice day to her.
Well, 17 cents.
Now, I think the numbers speak for themselves, don't they?
17 cents is less than half of 40 cents.
And yeah, you're calling Colorado, but you're still saving money.
And okay, if you don't want to call Colorado, you don't like that one for some reason.
Let's try a different one.
Let's see.
What other parts of the country do we have here?
I see something in D.C., but I kind of want to avoid that part of the country for a little
while.
I know we have one in Chicago.
There it is.
Okay, there's a number in Chicago.
Let's get it dialed to him.
Okay, we have to enter our secret code here.
Here we go.
Be safe.
Please take the time to teach your children their phone number.
The time is 10 minutes.
Your phone number.
The time is 7.50.
Temperature 68.
The local area weather, fair tonight, low near 46.
Sunny and mild tomorrow.
High near 77.
Okay, well, you get several things there.
Now, first of all, you get a handy tip.
Teach your children the phone number.
You find out what the weather is in Chicago.
How much do you think it would cost you to find out what the weather is in Chicago if
you called 9X?
Um, and you find out the time.
Now, you should note, though, that the time, obviously, is in Chicago, so it's an hour
earlier.
So if you can add one, you should use this.
You should use this number because you'll save lots of money.
That costs the same as calling Colorado, by the way.
It's 17 cents.
That cost us, as opposed to 40, and we know what time it is.
Okay, enough with the time.
That's, uh, oh, the number, 708-296-7666.
There.
That was, uh, nice and educational, wasn't it?
Good evening, you're on the radio.
Okay, good evening, you're on the radio.
Yes, hi, uh, Emanuel, uh, and, uh, hello to whatever guests are sitting by.
I'm happy to hear you show at an earlier hour.
Anyway, I, I realized that the, uh, release of Bernie S is imminent, and, uh, it sort
of coincides with, uh, the time a year ago when Fiber was released.
Now, I was wondering, Emanuel, if you would be able to spring for another ticker tape
parade, uh, approximately, uh, around Thanksgiving for, for Bernie.
Well, I'd love to do that, except it's possible he won't be able to attend, because he might
be restricted to Philadelphia.
We, we'd happily go down there and do that.
Uh-huh.
So, I mean, there's a possibility that will happen.
Okay.
So, uh, I'm, I'm sure something will happen at the, uh, the, there, there are various
hacker conferences planned.
There's, there's one in Philadelphia towards the end of the month, so something will probably
happen then.
Maybe for Christmas then we could, uh, eclipse the, uh, another parade.
You know, the important thing is that, that he just be out of that particular environment.
I mean, it's, it's a horrible feeling knowing that friends of yours are confined.
Yeah, I have, uh, he's going to Northampton, uh, uh, court, you said?
Uh, I'm sorry?
Northampton?
Yeah, I think that's the district that he's in.
Okay.
Oh, okay.
All right.
Now, I have a friend that, that worked for, uh, AT&T Labs over there, uh, and he lives
right there.
I'm going to mention it to him to keep an eye on it for me.
But anyway, I had one just last question.
Um, is there a possibility, uh, Atlantic Bell will be taking 9X over, uh, soon?
Or is there a possibility?
I don't think so.
Have you heard of that rumor somewhere?
Yeah, a good friend of mine asked to be early out of the, uh, 9X here.
And, and she said that, uh, if I ever get through to you just to ask that question.
Well, Bell Atlantic is, uh, is basically the competitor to 9X.
It's, uh, it's one of the regional bells.
And, uh, it's very unlikely that something like that would happen because there, there
are specific geographic, uh, areas that were assigned after the AT&T breakup in 1984.
Um, and I don't think 9X is in a position to be taken over by them.
And I don't think Bell Atlantic is in a position to take over another ARBOC.
Uh, so I would say that's, that's just a rumor and there's no grounds to it whatsoever.
And that's all I have for now.
Thanks.
I enjoy your show.
All right.
Take care.
That would be interesting though, but I don't think it's going to happen.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yeah.
Hi.
It's a very interesting show.
I'm a first time listener.
I wonder if you could tell an uninitiated person, what exactly did Bernie S do?
That's a very good question.
And to the uninitiated person, it would seem that Bernie S did nothing.
He had a, uh, what is known as a tone dialer on his possession.
A tone dialer is something you can buy at Radio Shack.
And if you open it up and put in a certain type of crystal, you can replace one of the
keys so that it makes a different sounding beep.
That's really it.
Now this different sounding beep, if you hold it up to a pay phone, when the pay phone asks
you for a quarter, the pay phone will think that you put in a quarter.
That's how ridiculous the technology is.
Bernie S did not do that.
Bernie S is not accused of doing that.
Bernie S simply had one of these things in his possession.
That's really what it all boils down to.
And for that, he's been in prison without bail for seven months.
That's really heavy duty.
It goes to show how completely out of control and insane our, uh, our legislators have become.
They think they can solve problems by passing ridiculous laws like this.
All right.
Okay.
Well, enjoy your show.
Okay.
Thank you.
Take care.
And if you think this is ridiculous, please spread the word.
Tell people that, uh, this is, this is insane.
And if you want a copy of the law, just email us and we'll be happy to send you a copy of
it.
You can see for yourself, word for word, just what this law entails.
Uh, the, uh, the address of manual at 2600.com.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Yeah.
Hello.
Um, I got a, I got two questions.
Okay.
Okay.
Um, the question is, um, on my call ID box, um, recently, I wasn't able to accept the
call, but I got a number that, that it displayed from area code seven one eight.
And the first, the prefix on the number was two Oh two.
Now I called the phone company to find out.
I called that number.
And when I, what happens is that I get a recording that I was first dialed on one.
I'm in area code seven one eight also.
Okay.
So I'm just confused because I was told by the phone company that, uh, that could be
a cellular phone or a non nine X pay phone.
Well, no, both of those, uh, wouldn't, wouldn't tie into your explanation.
I mean, it's possible, but any number could be one of those things.
Uh, you say when you dial two Oh two plus four digits, it tells you to dial one first.
Yeah.
It thinks, it thinks that you're trying to call Washington DC.
Right.
You see that?
And when I asked them if this is a prefix in that seven one eight area code, they're
telling me that no, that, that, that's not one of their exchanges.
Okay.
Hang on one second.
Can you hold on?
Sure.
All right.
You're going to hear a dial tone.
Don't panic.
We're just going to try something here.
All right, let's get our dial tone and we're going to dial.
One seven seven one eight two Oh two nine nine Oh one.
See what it says.
This will tell us if it's a central office or not.
And any exchange plus nine, I know one will usually tell you where.
We're sorry.
Your call cannot be completed as dialed.
Please check the number and dial again.
Okay.
We didn't have an identifier after that.
So I don't know where that came from.
If it even made it to seven one eight.
It doesn't seem likely based on, on what they've told you so far to two or two is a right area
code.
However, what that could be as somebody within the phone company calling you sometimes has
a phone company called you before this could have been numbed in.
Okay.
Because I had the phone company call me once and I'm an area code five one six and they
showed up as exchange two one five and two one five.
Obviously five one six did not have the capability of having any area code sounding exchanges
until this year.
So that sounds like that's the most likely scenario.
That was the phone company.
All right.
The other question I got, I got a telephone number here.
Eight hundred nine six two eight six eight three.
Last time I called it when I, when, when it picks up on the other end, I hear numbers
like it's counting off some types of numbers.
Would you know what that is?
Not off top of my head.
I'd have to call it myself.
They're not your phone numbers.
They're, there's some random numbers.
It's the number that they gave out a couple of years ago.
As a matter of fact, I just saved and I tried it again and it still works.
But the numbers that it gives out and what's what I'm saying.
Oh, it just gives out like, like counting like 11 or three or four or five.
Every time you call back, it gives you a different number.
Interesting.
I'll check into it, see if I can find out something about that.
Okay.
All right.
Thanks for calling.
And that's pretty much it for us.
We are out of time.
Uh, one thing people might be interested in checking out though.
I noticed a list of exchanges that are coming to the area.
You know, they, they, they publish these exchange lists and they tell you when a
new exchange is being developed.
And I noticed that all over New York state, the exchange 814 is popping up.
814 and 516, 718, 914, 315, 518, all over the place.
Didn't see it in 212 for some reason.
Um, I don't know what 814 is going to be used for, but it seems as if it's going
to be used for something statewide.
So that might be something to, uh, to keep an eye out for.
That's the handy tip for the night.
That's going to do it for us here at off the hook.
We'll be back again next week.
Hopefully I won't be racing through traffic next week and I'll be here.
Not out of breath and fiber optic with that next week as well.
Until then, this is Emanuel Goldstein.
We'll, uh, we'll see you then again, if you want email of that particular crazy
email to us, Emanuel at 2600.com.
Ask for, uh, the section 10 29, or just ask for the insane law.
And we'll send you that one as a default.
Take care.
Good night.
And you were tuned to listener sponsor WBAI FM in New York city.
It is 8 59 and 40 seconds.
And let's see, coming up now a few seconds early, but in a, but an hour later to many
of you and it's new time slot is housing notebook.