Off The Hook - 1995-11-14

[00:04.000 --> 00:06.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...love me, feed my sheep.
[00:06.600 --> 00:12.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I thought there was an elegant simplicity in that that has been lost on the United States Congress.
[00:12.680 --> 00:16.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I hope to keep repeating those words to people as I go across the country.
[00:17.680 --> 00:19.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: Jonathan, let's leave it right there.
[00:19.280 --> 00:22.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciate that note, and we ought to think about that.
[00:23.160 --> 00:24.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: Feed my sheep.
[00:24.580 --> 00:25.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: You've been listening to We the People.
[00:26.000 --> 00:33.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to thank Georgia Keller, Mark Cummings, Tom Whalen, Barbara Fisher, Carol Jo Pape, Michael Yoshida, and Bob Wells at WBAI.
[00:33.380 --> 00:35.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: And all of you have made this show possible.
[00:35.380 --> 00:35.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[00:36.000 --> 00:36.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll be with you tomorrow night.
[00:39.140 --> 00:44.120]  [SPEAKER_23]: And We the People with Jerry Brown back with us tomorrow night from 7 to 8 p.m.
[00:44.240 --> 00:52.300]  [SPEAKER_23]: Monday through Friday here on WBAI New York 99.5 FM, where coming up at 8 o'clock will be Off the Hook.
[00:52.740 --> 00:55.440]  [SPEAKER_23]: Emmanuel Goldstein and Company, stay tuned.
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[02:49.500 --> 02:52.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is radio station WBAI in New York.
[02:52.860 --> 02:53.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Time's 8 o'clock.
[02:53.960 --> 02:54.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's Tuesday night.
[02:55.020 --> 02:55.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's time for Off the Hook.
[04:18.540 --> 04:20.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: And a good evening to everybody.
[04:20.680 --> 04:22.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is Off the Hook.
[04:23.160 --> 04:34.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Emmanuel Goldstein with you tonight, where we're talking about the latest developments in the world of, well, I guess, high technology and the Internet and the telephone system and whatever else comes to mind.
[04:34.720 --> 04:39.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, this last week was kind of a milestone in many ways.
[04:39.740 --> 04:56.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: After the program last week, we went down to Washington, D.C., me, Bernie S., a couple other people, and actually went to this conference that had a lot of, how shall we put it, intelligence-type people lurking around.
[04:56.500 --> 04:59.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, CIA, NSA, FBI, people like that.
[05:00.480 --> 05:03.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, I thought it would be a really good opportunity for Bernie S.
[05:03.860 --> 05:14.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: to present his case to the public, or to another part of the public, I guess, to people that may never have heard his case had we not done this.
[05:14.180 --> 05:30.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Bernie S., in case you're tuning in for the first time, or if you have a short memory, was the person who spent seven months in jail for basically possessing a red box and some software that he himself had helped to write.
[05:31.200 --> 05:34.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was a very bizarre case.
[05:34.000 --> 05:35.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, it's not over yet.
[05:35.200 --> 05:42.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: This Friday, he comes up for sentencing on probation violation, which happened because he got arrested for possessing a red box.
[05:42.760 --> 05:44.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's a long, drawn-out story.
[05:44.220 --> 05:46.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've been through it countless times here on the radio station.
[05:47.200 --> 05:50.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: But this was the first time these people actually heard from him.
[05:50.220 --> 05:52.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: They actually heard his side of the story.
[05:52.500 --> 05:55.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think it's good to bridge those gaps occasionally.
[05:55.680 --> 06:00.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of those people you might think are unreachable were rather shocked by this.
[06:01.420 --> 06:07.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: So when something happens that you want people to find out about, make sure as many different kinds of people hear about it as possible.
[06:08.020 --> 06:10.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Might make a difference, might not.
[06:10.220 --> 06:10.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Who knows?
[06:10.600 --> 06:17.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: But I just have the feeling that his case was brought up in many different forums over the last week.
[06:17.780 --> 06:23.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: And maybe if it happens to somebody else, more people will stand up and say something this time.
[06:23.100 --> 06:27.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we won't have to go through the nightmare that this year has been for him.
[06:28.500 --> 06:32.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Next week, of course, we'll be updating you on what happened this coming Friday.
[06:34.320 --> 06:38.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Whether they actually see fit to send him back to prison for probation violation.
[06:39.600 --> 06:40.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Unbelievable story.
[06:40.820 --> 06:43.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's definitely a book involved here somewhere, I think.
[06:44.140 --> 06:46.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: But tonight, we're talking about a different case.
[06:46.680 --> 06:47.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Totally different case.
[06:47.500 --> 06:47.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[06:47.940 --> 06:49.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's more than one case going on.
[06:49.800 --> 06:51.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's many, many cases.
[06:51.720 --> 06:55.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this doesn't involve really anything in this country, actually.
[06:55.800 --> 07:02.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is something taking place with our neighbors to the north, who are still one country.
[07:02.260 --> 07:03.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that would be Canada.
[07:04.040 --> 07:07.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: This involves someone named Jesse Hirsch.
[07:09.520 --> 07:19.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: And basically, I'll read you the update, and then we'll speak to somebody up there about this particular case and how it affects us, how it affects them, and various other things like that.
[07:20.120 --> 07:23.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: On Thursday, September 7th, 1995, at 10 a.m.
[07:23.420 --> 07:28.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: in courtroom 126 of Toronto's Old City Hall, Jesse Hirsch was scheduled to go on trial.
[07:28.340 --> 07:36.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: He was charged with unauthorized use of a computer system, contrary to Section 342.1 of the Criminal Code of Canada.
[07:36.940 --> 07:40.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Jesse had been caught using his stepbrother's university computer account.
[07:41.400 --> 07:42.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, boy.
[07:43.080 --> 07:51.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Caught using his stepbrother's university computer account, as well as the account of another friend, to publish an anarchist newsletter to the Internet.
[07:53.000 --> 07:53.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's it.
[07:53.700 --> 07:54.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's everything.
[07:54.260 --> 07:55.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's the whole thing right there.
[07:55.620 --> 08:01.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, he was using his stepbrother's university computer account, a friend's computer account, and he was publishing an anarchist newsletter.
[08:03.140 --> 08:04.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's a hardened criminal for you.
[08:04.740 --> 08:09.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Upon his arrest, Jesse assured the police that he had been given permission to use the accounts.
[08:09.220 --> 08:23.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: However, the prosecution adopted the position that since the university had a strict policy against allowing its users to share computer accounts, Jesse's stepbrother and friend had not been permitted to give Jesse the necessary authorization to make use of their accounts.
[08:23.480 --> 08:27.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: In other words, it didn't make any difference that his stepbrother and friend knew that he was using the accounts.
[08:28.020 --> 08:29.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: All that mattered was that he had actually used them.
[08:30.640 --> 08:35.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, Jesse quickly set about hiring himself a good lawyer and prepared to confront the case against him.
[08:36.300 --> 08:39.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: After many months of anxious waiting, Jesse's day in court finally arrived.
[08:40.240 --> 08:46.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: On the morning of the trial, mere minutes before the court was called into session, the prosecution suddenly withdrew the charges.
[08:47.320 --> 08:55.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Jesse agreed to pay to the University of Toronto the sum of $400 as a token in satisfaction of the cost of using its computers.
[08:56.220 --> 08:59.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: At one point, the university had claimed the cost would be $1,600.
[09:00.200 --> 09:01.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: After that, he was free to go.
[09:02.460 --> 09:07.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: For Jesse, the prosecution's withdrawal signified the end of a long and harrowing journey.
[09:07.440 --> 09:15.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: After countless sleepless nights, lying awake and worrying about the possibility of a criminal record or worse, still a jail sentence, he could finally rest easy.
[09:15.220 --> 09:22.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: But for Canadians everywhere, Jesse's story raises the ominous specter of more cases like it in the future.
[09:23.340 --> 09:28.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: On the phone with us right now from Toronto is Dove Weisbrot.
[09:29.140 --> 09:29.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Dove, are you there?
[09:30.320 --> 09:31.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good evening.
[09:31.320 --> 09:35.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're with a group called Logic, the Legal Group for the Internet, I believe.
[09:35.820 --> 09:36.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that what it stands for?
[09:36.540 --> 09:39.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: The Legal Group for the Internet in Canada, that's correct.
[09:39.840 --> 09:40.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[09:40.700 --> 09:43.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And tell us, first of all, something about your organization.
[09:43.820 --> 10:09.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: We started work late last winter, early spring, when we realized that there really wasn't a voice in Canada at the time for legal issues, specifically as they relate to the Internet, to be discussed and to be commented on from a perspective of freedom of speech and rights,
[10:09.680 --> 10:11.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: instead of law enforcement.
[10:13.040 --> 10:13.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: I see.
[10:14.000 --> 10:22.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, the need for this particular organization was brought about at first when the Jesse Hirsch case came about, or were there other cases before then?
[10:22.160 --> 10:27.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: We existed at the time that Jesse Hirsch was brought to our attention.
[10:27.620 --> 10:47.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: A member of our group was a system administrator at an Internet service provider here in Toronto, and he was good friends with Jesse Hirsch and told Jesse that he should come to one of our meetings, describe his case to us, and we'd see if we could help.
[10:48.400 --> 10:49.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: I see.
[10:49.780 --> 10:51.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: What kind of public response do you get?
[10:53.660 --> 11:02.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, since we've had our webpage up, we've been monitoring the accesses to that, and it's been fairly popular.
[11:02.640 --> 11:12.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: We have a mailing list over the Internet by which we coordinate announcements and discussion about issues as they arise.
[11:12.420 --> 11:19.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we're in the course of preparing several different submissions to different levels of the government.
[11:21.240 --> 11:30.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, of course, you being in Canada, we have slightly different laws and different rights, I suppose, as far as freedom of speech, freedom of press.
[11:31.480 --> 11:37.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: What do you see as the major differences between the Canadian culture and the American culture with regards to that?
[11:37.040 --> 12:03.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, the major difference legally is that in a piece of our Constitution called the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, we have what's known as Section 1, which provides an exception for the rights in the Charter and allows for certain breaches of those rights in certain cases.
[12:04.140 --> 12:05.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Such as?
[12:05.920 --> 12:14.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, when there is a justification for the infringement of a right, such as freedom of speech.
[12:14.200 --> 12:26.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: In other words, if it's necessary to infringe that right in order to protect a greater public good, for instance, then a court will allow that infringement.
[12:26.780 --> 12:27.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[12:27.600 --> 12:30.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is there an example such as hate speech, perhaps?
[12:30.840 --> 12:39.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, hate speech has, uh, so far, um, been upheld, uh, the hate laws have been upheld under that section.
[12:41.080 --> 12:41.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[12:42.260 --> 12:48.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, um, specifically, uh, about the Jesse Hirsch case, though, what, uh, what did you see as significant about that?
[12:48.920 --> 12:50.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Why was this such an important case?
[12:50.400 --> 13:08.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, we thought it was an important case because the section in the criminal code that makes it a crime to do what Jesse did has absolutely no, no recognition, no understanding of what its effect can be.
[13:08.900 --> 13:24.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: According to this crime, if you use a computer without any, um, permission in the, in the actual wording, it's called color of right, then you're liable for the crime.
[13:24.300 --> 13:36.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, this can potentially include people who use your bank card without, uh, without the permission of the bank, but with your permission.
[13:36.780 --> 13:55.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: You would then have the permission of the account holder be given their password or personal identification number with their permission, but according to the bank and according to this, uh, to this, uh, criminal code provision, you'd be found liable.
[13:57.060 --> 14:09.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just looking at, uh, at one of my bank cards here and reading what, what says on the back of it, uh, use of this card is governed by the terms and conditions of the cardholders agreement executed by the cardholder and the bank when this card was issued.
[14:09.720 --> 14:10.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's kind of vague, actually.
[14:11.040 --> 14:19.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, you're saying the banks, as a rule or in general, don't allow people to, to transfer, to, uh, transfer the card to somebody else?
[14:20.060 --> 14:20.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's right.
[14:20.920 --> 14:28.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's generally a standard clause in the contract that only the person to whom the card is issued will use the account.
[14:29.060 --> 14:44.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: Therefore, if anyone else uses it, even if they have the permission of the person who has that account, it wouldn't, they wouldn't have the permission of the bank, and according to the law, um, they couldn't use the account.
[14:44.580 --> 14:44.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[14:46.220 --> 14:48.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: It really is, is, uh, frightening prospect.
[14:48.900 --> 14:53.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I mean, do you think that's a realistic scenario, that people actually get prosecuted or something like that?
[14:54.560 --> 14:57.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: I suspect that the bank keeps it under wraps.
[14:57.400 --> 14:57.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[14:58.100 --> 15:02.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: No major organization like, like that wants to reveal, uh, security breaches.
[15:03.220 --> 15:05.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: They want to maintain the confidence of their, uh, customers.
[15:06.280 --> 15:06.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[15:07.320 --> 15:14.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Can you tell us, uh, some other cases that, uh, that might be of interest to us down here as far as, uh, things similar to the Jesse Hurst case?
[15:14.060 --> 15:27.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, there, there really isn't, uh, the large number of cases, uh, related to, uh, computers and crimes in Canada, like, uh, there are in the States.
[15:27.620 --> 15:40.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: We follow the cases in the States because generally they, they foretell happenings, uh, farther north in my own country, uh, and there's a lot to learn from, uh, the American cases.
[15:40.680 --> 15:45.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: But generally, as yet, uh, there's been very few cases like it.
[15:45.840 --> 15:51.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: We talked a little last week about, uh, encryption, uh, with, uh, involving cellular phones.
[15:51.740 --> 16:03.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's some pressure on, uh, on various, um, um, entities up there in Canada, uh, to make it illegal to encrypt conversations unless it's with a key that the government can crack.
[16:04.360 --> 16:06.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, are you following those kind of cases?
[16:07.040 --> 16:08.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, yes, we are.
[16:08.100 --> 16:16.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, I believe what you're referring to is the document that was put together by the, uh, Association of Chiefs of Police up here in Canada.
[16:17.180 --> 16:17.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[16:17.800 --> 16:22.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, that calls for essentially the equivalent of the American clipper chip.
[16:23.840 --> 16:32.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right, except, um, this looks like it actually has a chance of, of going through, whereas clipper chip is kind of, kind of dead right now for the, for the time being.
[16:32.300 --> 16:32.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: We hope.
[16:32.860 --> 16:33.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[16:33.600 --> 16:42.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, as far as I'm aware, um, a mandate by, uh, the Chiefs of Police doesn't necessarily, um, lead to government action.
[16:42.760 --> 16:49.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, we don't have a draft law on the table being considered by the government, as far as I'm aware.
[16:49.820 --> 16:56.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, and if that did happen, you can be sure that Logic will be following it very closely.
[16:56.760 --> 16:57.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: I see.
[16:57.780 --> 17:00.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, how many, uh, members do you have in, in your group Logic?
[17:02.260 --> 17:04.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, well, it's hard to tell.
[17:04.960 --> 17:09.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: On the mailing list, we have, uh, roughly 30, uh, or so.
[17:10.040 --> 17:33.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, and we recently have, uh, developed a call for legal writing, legal commentary across Canada, which we hope will generate, uh, uh, significant interest and enhance, uh, our Internet presence by providing, um, much legal commentary on laws such as this one.
[17:33.600 --> 17:43.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: So that when we confront the government, we'll have the resources available to make a reasoned argument, um, for change.
[17:44.700 --> 17:48.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're speaking with Dov Weisbrod of the Legal Group for the Internet in Canada.
[17:48.960 --> 17:54.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, if you have any questions you'd like to, uh, uh, to pose to him, uh, please give us a call now.
[17:54.540 --> 17:58.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you have general questions about something else, however, uh, we're doing that later on in the program.
[17:59.220 --> 18:03.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh, uh, don't call to ask about something unrelated to this case.
[18:03.140 --> 18:07.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-279-3400 if you want to, uh, to ask something.
[18:08.180 --> 18:10.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, Jason, you have something for us right here in this video.
[18:10.780 --> 18:23.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, um, I was wondering, in addition to the laws that are coming down with this case, um, it's my understanding that the Bell Canada is, like, really upping the price on Centrex lines and things like that to ISPs by about 400%.
[18:23.680 --> 18:27.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I mean, what is it like up in Canada?
[18:27.420 --> 18:31.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, here in the United States, we're pretty much used to, you know, freedom on the net.
[18:31.420 --> 18:33.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, as far as where to go and what to do and what to say.
[18:34.140 --> 18:35.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, and it's pretty easy to get access.
[18:36.220 --> 18:38.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: What is it like up in Canada trying to get access?
[18:38.420 --> 18:39.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what are the prices like?
[18:39.400 --> 18:43.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what are the prices going to be like with this, with the new, uh, the, the new laws?
[18:43.660 --> 18:47.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: And how is this affecting, you know, how Canada regulates the net?
[18:47.880 --> 18:52.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, what, how, how much government involvement is there in the net in Canada?
[18:52.280 --> 19:10.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: In Canada, we have a government organization, um, called the Canadian Radio, Television and Telecommunications Commission, which is, um, a policy body that regulates, uh, telecommunications and broadcasting in Canada.
[19:10.580 --> 19:12.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's basically your FCC, the CRTC, right?
[19:12.940 --> 19:14.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's fairly equivalent, yes.
[19:15.020 --> 19:31.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, um, Bell Canada, when, when Bell Canada proposed this rate increase, um, a number of Internet service providers got together and they're planning to petition the CRTC, uh, against the rate hike.
[19:32.080 --> 19:37.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: But this, according to the CRTC, what Bell is planning to do is perfectly legal.
[19:39.320 --> 19:39.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Interesting.
[19:39.920 --> 19:40.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's take some phone calls.
[19:40.860 --> 19:42.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-279-3400.
[19:42.480 --> 19:42.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[19:42.820 --> 19:43.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[19:43.660 --> 19:44.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, Emmanuel.
[19:44.700 --> 19:48.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, I just want to know, do you know, um, you were talking about digital phones?
[19:49.620 --> 19:49.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: When?
[19:50.400 --> 19:50.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: When?
[19:50.700 --> 19:52.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: We were talking about digital encryption on cellular phones.
[19:52.860 --> 19:53.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right, yes, go ahead.
[19:53.680 --> 19:57.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do they, in the United States, they have this new digital phone that AT&T has.
[19:58.060 --> 19:59.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: How does that work?
[19:59.200 --> 20:00.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: What does that do?
[20:00.140 --> 20:02.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, does that encrypt your phone calls or something?
[20:02.940 --> 20:05.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, well, you know, that's not really related to what we're talking about right now.
[20:06.020 --> 20:10.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll get into the, uh, technical discussion of how exactly it works, uh, a little later on.
[20:10.220 --> 20:13.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right now, we're trying to keep the, uh, focus on, on what's happening up in Canada.
[20:13.920 --> 20:14.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, good evening.
[20:14.940 --> 20:15.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[20:16.820 --> 20:17.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello?
[20:18.460 --> 20:19.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Go ahead.
[20:20.880 --> 20:21.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[20:22.000 --> 20:25.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that's about the, uh, intelligence level that's out there, out there at this moment.
[20:25.660 --> 20:27.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-279-3400.
[20:27.820 --> 20:29.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, we have one more line.
[20:29.560 --> 20:29.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Go ahead.
[20:30.020 --> 20:30.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[20:30.960 --> 20:31.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[20:31.340 --> 20:31.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: Hi.
[20:31.900 --> 20:44.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, what kind of reaction has there been in Canada about this issue, um, in, in the press, I imagine, um, has, has the press covered the Jesse Hirsch case is what you're asking.
[20:44.600 --> 20:44.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[20:44.960 --> 20:45.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[20:45.340 --> 20:52.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: And also, um, I mean, I'm a bit disappointed it didn't get to court so they could be thrown out of court so that no such charges could be.
[20:52.980 --> 20:53.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[20:53.260 --> 20:54.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's, that's a question.
[20:54.140 --> 20:59.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, I was wondering myself, why, why did he agree to pay $400 was just to get this over with?
[21:00.160 --> 21:14.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, there was some discussion that one of the witnesses, um, who, who was related to the case, uh, wasn't available, uh, at the, at the key time for the prosecution.
[21:14.540 --> 21:27.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: And rather than wait and have late, uh, disclosure of evidence, which is necessary for the accused to know the case against him, uh, the, the prosecution just decided to drop it.
[21:27.700 --> 21:46.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, we were actually, we were very pleased for Jesse, uh, that, uh, he went free and the charges were withdrawn, but we also had this nagging feeling that if a court was forced to look at this law and decide how it applied and whether or not it should apply,
[21:46.900 --> 21:54.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: um, then we could have a, either a good or a bad precedent up in Canada that we could deal with.
[21:54.800 --> 21:56.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right now, the law is still up in the air.
[21:56.640 --> 21:57.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's a very good point.
[21:58.380 --> 21:58.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[21:58.840 --> 21:59.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: Thank you very much.
[22:00.120 --> 22:01.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for the call.
[22:01.820 --> 22:02.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[22:02.580 --> 22:02.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[22:05.660 --> 22:09.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, hey, I have, um, two questions.
[22:09.980 --> 22:20.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: First of all, about exactly what the nature of his, uh, trouble was, was did, did he crack the system or, um, was he given access by his friends?
[22:20.980 --> 22:22.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wasn't really clear on that.
[22:22.260 --> 22:24.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was given access by his friends.
[22:24.220 --> 22:27.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: All he did really was, was use the system the way it was intended to be used.
[22:27.600 --> 22:27.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that correct?
[22:27.900 --> 22:30.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's just that they weren't authorized to let him use their accounts.
[22:30.500 --> 22:30.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's right.
[22:30.980 --> 22:34.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, they provided him with the passwords to their accounts.
[22:34.280 --> 22:41.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: He used their accounts, but according to the university, he shouldn't have received those passwords.
[22:41.200 --> 22:43.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: And if he did, he shouldn't have used them.
[22:43.360 --> 22:43.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[22:43.760 --> 22:44.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see that.
[22:44.300 --> 22:45.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's, that's a, that's a policy thing.
[22:46.160 --> 22:48.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a... It's, it's clearly policy.
[22:49.140 --> 22:49.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[22:49.560 --> 22:53.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: And my other question is, um, what are the laws in, uh, America?
[22:54.100 --> 22:59.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Does anybody know what the laws in the United States are, uh, surrounding that same sort of thing?
[22:59.360 --> 23:05.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of a question of the, the site's policy, uh, the site's access policy?
[23:05.380 --> 23:07.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I think it's, I think it basically revolves around the site.
[23:08.220 --> 23:16.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: The site implements some policies based on, on, uh, their own rules and regulations and, and they're pretty much responsible for enforcing it.
[23:17.260 --> 23:19.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I imagine the same really holds true up in Canada.
[23:19.760 --> 23:27.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, are we looking at a, some sort of a national law that was violated here or that they claim it was violated or just a university of, uh, a university policy?
[23:28.420 --> 23:39.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, well, what the, the case, as it turned out, um, involves a contract between the university and the people whose accounts were used.
[23:40.120 --> 23:47.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's a contract there that says that the people who have the accounts cannot give their passwords out to anyone else.
[23:47.400 --> 23:59.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: When Jesse got that password and used the account with the permission of those people, he did so in breach of the contract with the university.
[23:59.720 --> 24:06.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, Canadian law says that if you do that, you are liable for a crime.
[24:06.740 --> 24:10.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, the problem with that is it's a contract between two people.
[24:11.060 --> 24:12.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's all it is.
[24:12.440 --> 24:19.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the worst that we think Jesse should be liable for is, is possibly breaching that contract.
[24:19.360 --> 24:21.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, I'm curious about that though.
[24:21.460 --> 24:23.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, he never signed a contract, did he?
[24:23.380 --> 24:24.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: He didn't.
[24:24.240 --> 24:31.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, most likely it, it, uh, the contract should affect the people that gave him the password.
[24:31.500 --> 24:39.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: As a third-party to the contract, as someone who didn't sign it, he shouldn't have been the first person contacted.
[24:39.440 --> 24:49.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: He was largely because the university didn't know that he was a student, didn't know that he had permission to use the passwords until it was too late.
[24:50.060 --> 24:55.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: And they called in, uh, the cops acting pretty much in total ignorance.
[24:55.940 --> 24:59.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, was this real total ignorance or are they just pretending to be ignorant about this?
[25:00.200 --> 25:02.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, they're claiming ignorance.
[25:02.460 --> 25:07.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, and I, I, I don't know what the system administrator was thinking.
[25:07.840 --> 25:14.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, but as far as I've heard from him and from Jesse, he honestly didn't know.
[25:14.440 --> 25:15.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: I see.
[25:15.520 --> 25:22.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: I didn't help Jesse when he was arrested, handcuffed and strip searched, but that's what they're saying.
[25:23.200 --> 25:24.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's very unfortunate.
[25:24.620 --> 25:27.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I just send my sympathies out to him wherever he is.
[25:27.620 --> 25:30.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Cause there's a similar thing happened to me a couple of years ago.
[25:31.040 --> 25:35.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm just glad that the system administrators at that site were a little more understanding.
[25:35.740 --> 25:36.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: What, what happened to you?
[25:37.260 --> 25:39.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, a somewhat similar thing.
[25:39.460 --> 25:45.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was obtaining access through alternative means to the system.
[25:45.800 --> 25:49.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: I only sort of cracked it.
[25:49.720 --> 25:55.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was, I part, part of the access was legitimate and perhaps I overstepped the bounds.
[25:55.720 --> 25:57.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: And what, how did they respond?
[25:57.440 --> 26:05.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they, they reacted by, um, organizing kind of an internal bust thing.
[26:05.500 --> 26:13.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they grabbed me and freaked the heck out of me and told me that they could have called the cops on me and they had decided not to.
[26:14.200 --> 26:15.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I saw the light.
[26:15.460 --> 26:16.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: They got their point across.
[26:16.860 --> 26:18.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: They definitely got their point across.
[26:18.580 --> 26:27.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm very glad that somebody knocked some sense into my head in that way, rather than actually calling the cops and putting me in this person's situation, Jesse's situation.
[26:27.820 --> 26:28.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Makes sense.
[26:28.840 --> 26:29.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for the call.
[26:29.700 --> 26:30.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[26:30.480 --> 26:30.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good night.
[26:31.220 --> 26:34.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, when, uh, when Jesse was, uh, was put in prison, you mentioned he was strip searched.
[26:34.840 --> 26:36.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: What, what, how long was he actually in jail for?
[26:37.240 --> 26:40.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: He was actually in jail for several hours.
[26:40.860 --> 26:56.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, his father and a friend of his father's came down to the police station and made, uh, a lot of noise and finally convinced the police officers to, um, to let their friend go and his son go.
[26:58.040 --> 27:01.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: He was kept in the, in the police station for that long.
[27:01.400 --> 27:04.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: What kinds of, of things were they accusing him of?
[27:04.940 --> 27:08.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Were they saying he was some sort of a master hacker that could, uh, bring the world to its knees or something?
[27:09.440 --> 27:25.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, as Jesse tells the story, uh, two very large policemen showed up at, uh, the door of his family's home, um, asked him if he knew what a hacker was and, uh, proceeded to arrest him.
[27:25.060 --> 27:39.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: When he reached for a jacket to take along with him, um, they used that as an excuse to search the jacket, at which point they found something that led them to be even more suspicious.
[27:39.540 --> 27:42.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: And when they brought him down to the station, they strip searched him.
[27:43.180 --> 27:46.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: You can only imagine what they expected to find.
[27:46.020 --> 27:53.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, as far as I know, there's nothing that you can carry on your body that would help you hack with someone else's password.
[27:53.620 --> 27:58.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: The whole story just is so absurd as, as to almost make it unbelievable.
[27:59.500 --> 28:03.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, how, uh, how exactly did he come to their attention in the first place?
[28:03.600 --> 28:06.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Was it because of the anarchist magazine he was, he was publishing?
[28:06.880 --> 28:13.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, initially that's what led the system administrator, um, to, uh, to look into the situation.
[28:14.100 --> 28:25.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Apparently, a user on the Internet brought the anarchist newsletter to the system administrator's attention, saying, look, look what's coming out of your computer system.
[28:25.440 --> 28:27.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: You better do something about this.
[28:27.360 --> 28:30.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, the newsletter in itself is perfectly legal.
[28:30.540 --> 28:36.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's nothing they can do to stop that from coming out from a legitimately held account.
[28:37.320 --> 28:56.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: But when the system administrator looked into the account and saw that the person who was using it wasn't the person to whom the password had been given, then he got suspicious and started paying closer attention, eventually called in the university police,
[28:56.240 --> 29:05.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: who called in the Toronto police, who arrested him after monitoring his use of the account for several months.
[29:06.200 --> 29:08.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, does it strike you as a bit odd?
[29:08.440 --> 29:21.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I don't, I hope the irony isn't lost in our listeners, but we're talking about a university here, a university where you go to expand your mind, experiment, learn things, and they're reacting like some sort of a repressive regime someplace.
[29:21.760 --> 29:23.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is this, uh, does this strike you as unusual?
[29:24.380 --> 29:36.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: It, it, you'd think it would be unusual, but, um, unfortunately there are precedents in Canadian universities for censorship and similar activity.
[29:36.500 --> 29:45.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: For example, um, the Carla Homolka press ban, which, um, I, I hope is familiar to your listeners.
[29:45.440 --> 29:50.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, we had our own little OJ Simpson case up in Canada.
[29:50.560 --> 29:58.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: And before the husband of the murderous husband and wife team came to trial, trial, the wife was on trial.
[29:59.020 --> 30:09.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the judge in her case ordered that no information about the case could be published anywhere because the husband had to have a fair trial later on.
[30:10.400 --> 30:23.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, when the judge did this, you'd think the universities would immediately see the freedom of speech issue here and step out against it and allow things to show up on their computer systems.
[30:23.580 --> 30:40.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: But what actually happened is that, uh, a couple of students here in Toronto set up a news group on the Internet called alt.fan.carlahomolka and universities kept banning it right and left.
[30:40.900 --> 30:50.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: It was, it was unusual, you, you would think, but unfortunately there's precedent for university activity like this.
[30:50.480 --> 30:52.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: What about, uh, independent, uh, providers?
[30:53.140 --> 30:55.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Would they be compelled to ban that too?
[30:55.720 --> 30:59.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: Independent service providers were much better about it.
[30:59.360 --> 31:04.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, at the time of the event, I had two Internet accounts.
[31:04.680 --> 31:14.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: One of the systems, uh, which was operated as a simple bulletin board system, largely self-contained, except for the access to news groups.
[31:15.400 --> 31:29.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, that system actually banned the news group, but another system that I'm on that is much more open and is directly accessible over the Internet left it on, which is actually the right decision to make in the circumstances.
[31:30.260 --> 31:30.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[31:31.180 --> 31:33.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: How hard is Internet access to get up there for most people?
[31:34.840 --> 31:43.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, um, in the, in the cities, which, uh, is pretty much the only thing within my realm of experience, it's very easy.
[31:44.120 --> 31:50.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, there's significant and often serious competition amongst, uh, service providers.
[31:50.720 --> 31:56.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: I can easily think of, uh, nine or 10 just in the area here.
[31:56.580 --> 31:57.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's up in Toronto?
[31:58.140 --> 31:58.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[31:58.800 --> 32:00.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, are they flat fees?
[32:01.140 --> 32:01.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, no time limits?
[32:02.900 --> 32:08.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, uh, generally you can, um, you can get access at whatever terms you feel you need.
[32:09.000 --> 32:15.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, like my own access, for instance, I pay a monthly fee for a set number of hours per month.
[32:15.780 --> 32:23.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, other places you can pay a fee per day or per year depends on, uh, what your access needs are.
[32:23.300 --> 32:28.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: And do they use the, um, the feature of no censorship as a selling point?
[32:28.800 --> 32:29.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Not yet.
[32:30.180 --> 32:49.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, one of the things that logic is going to be looking into is, uh, how to approach Internet try to convince them that privacy guidelines and non-censorship guidelines and open access guidelines could actually be a significant selling point.
[32:50.580 --> 32:51.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[32:51.060 --> 32:55.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're talking with, uh, Dov Weisbrot of Logic, legal group for the Internet in Canada.
[32:55.480 --> 32:59.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll take a couple more questions for him at 212-279-3400.
[32:59.620 --> 33:02.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: And then we'll, uh, take some more general topics later on in the show.
[33:02.820 --> 33:03.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[33:03.600 --> 33:04.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[33:06.880 --> 33:08.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: This time I'm not going to hang up.
[33:09.240 --> 33:10.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, they hang up.
[33:10.200 --> 33:11.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: You see, that's, that's it.
[33:11.300 --> 33:13.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: They just have one thing to say and then they, then they go away.
[33:13.660 --> 33:14.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[33:14.200 --> 33:14.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[33:15.100 --> 33:15.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, Emmanuel.
[33:15.940 --> 33:16.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, go ahead.
[33:17.440 --> 33:19.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, I just, I tuned in a little bit late.
[33:19.560 --> 33:22.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, are you accepting any questions other than the topic at hand?
[33:22.900 --> 33:24.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, later in the show we will.
[33:24.720 --> 33:26.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Later in the show, like in about 10 minutes.
[33:26.580 --> 33:26.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[33:26.960 --> 33:27.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'll call back.
[33:27.480 --> 33:27.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[33:28.840 --> 33:29.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[33:29.400 --> 33:29.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[33:31.720 --> 33:32.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, uh.
[33:33.040 --> 33:33.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, go ahead.
[33:34.080 --> 33:34.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Turn down your radio.
[33:35.300 --> 33:46.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Back in college, when I was in college, a friend of mine who was at another college, a friend of mine who was at another college, uh, used my account to Telnet to his account, which, uh, I guess he had super user access.
[33:47.460 --> 33:49.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he got in shitloads of trouble for it.
[33:49.960 --> 33:54.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, first of all, first of all, uh, you don't need super user access to Telnet to something.
[33:54.840 --> 33:55.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no.
[33:55.400 --> 33:59.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: He just, he was like a, uh, student sysadmin kind of guy.
[33:59.020 --> 33:59.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[33:59.960 --> 34:01.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, so he, I guess he had a lot of access.
[34:01.980 --> 34:03.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: He SU'd to your account, what do you mean?
[34:04.740 --> 34:05.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, it was different colleges.
[34:06.300 --> 34:06.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[34:07.180 --> 34:11.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he used my, he used my account to Telnet to his account at his college.
[34:11.580 --> 34:12.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, yeah, I see what you're saying.
[34:12.620 --> 34:14.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right, and then he got in tons of trouble for this.
[34:15.740 --> 34:18.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: And nobody said anything to me about it at my college.
[34:18.400 --> 34:18.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, really?
[34:19.120 --> 34:20.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I just thought it was kind of weird.
[34:21.620 --> 34:22.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's interesting.
[34:22.380 --> 34:28.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, when you have colleges running systems, uh, you're really at the mercy of the people, uh, who are, who are operating them.
[34:29.020 --> 34:33.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: And lots of times, the people with the real power have no idea how the computer systems work.
[34:34.460 --> 34:38.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh, because of that, you know, they disbelieve whatever they're told by the system administrator.
[34:39.600 --> 34:42.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: And lots of times, you know, the wool is just pulled right over their eyes.
[34:42.740 --> 34:44.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Did you see that in this particular case, Dov?
[34:45.240 --> 34:47.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, well, in, in a sense, we did.
[34:47.820 --> 35:03.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, it sounds that, like, that in the caller's case, there might have been, um, a greater ability on the part of the, uh, system administrator to monitor the accounts and determine exactly who was accessing it from where.
[35:04.140 --> 35:10.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: In, uh, Jesse's case, unfortunately, um, there wasn't quite that extensive ability.
[35:10.780 --> 35:28.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: While logic feels that it, it's inexcusable for the system administrator not to have known that the person he was dealing with was a student at the university, the fact remains that he claims that they simply did not know.
[35:28.380 --> 35:33.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: And that is one of the main elements that led to the difficulty Jesse had.
[35:35.400 --> 35:40.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, we've been speaking with Dov Weisbrot of, uh, the Legal Group for the Internet in Canada.
[35:40.480 --> 35:46.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, what can people in this, uh, in this country do to, to reach you guys and to find out more information?
[35:46.580 --> 36:00.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, uh, conventionally, over standard phone lines, uh, they're welcome to call logic at area code 416-963-9434.
[36:00.120 --> 36:13.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: And for those of your listeners who have Internet, uh, access, they can email logic at l-o-g-i-c-a-p-i-o-dot-o-r-g.
[36:13.980 --> 36:31.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we also maintain a web presence at h-t-t-p-colin-slash-slash-w-w-w-w-w-dot-i-o-dot-o-r-g-slash-squiggle-logic.
[36:31.600 --> 36:37.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, and I know there are some people out there who would be interested in, uh, in seeing that anarchist newsletter and a chance of doing that.
[36:38.340 --> 36:46.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: They're welcome to email Logic, and I can put them in touch with the author and distributor, Jesse Hirsch himself.
[36:47.260 --> 36:47.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[36:47.880 --> 36:49.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I want to thank you for talking with us tonight.
[36:49.640 --> 36:55.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think we should stay in touch and compare stories of our respective countries and see just what path we're going down.
[36:55.560 --> 36:56.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: Absolutely.
[36:56.660 --> 36:56.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[36:57.160 --> 36:57.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good luck, then.
[36:59.140 --> 37:07.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: That was Dove Weisbrot of the Legal Group for the Internet in Canada, kind of inspiring the things they're doing up there.
[37:07.720 --> 37:10.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it seems like they're a little bit more focused.
[37:10.780 --> 37:16.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, something like this happens to somebody, and right away there's someone there to get the word out and to defend him.
[37:17.600 --> 37:22.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And hopefully we can have such focus here in this country as well.
[37:22.360 --> 37:25.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is Off the Hook, and it's 25 minutes to 9 o'clock.
[37:26.220 --> 37:30.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we're taking general phone calls at 212-279-3400.
[37:30.180 --> 37:31.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that Phiber Optik, I see?
[37:31.320 --> 37:31.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[37:31.860 --> 37:32.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, welcome to the show.
[37:33.220 --> 37:33.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi.
[37:33.720 --> 37:35.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: What's new with you this week?
[37:36.600 --> 37:43.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, not extremely too much, but listening to all this stuff in Canada, it's made me curious.
[37:43.860 --> 37:53.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: How was it that the administration at the university was so quick to determine that it was, in fact, this person who was using the account and not the proper owner?
[37:53.960 --> 38:03.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: I guess he had his name attached to the newsletter, or I guess they traced the phone call to actually track down where the person was coming from.
[38:04.100 --> 38:06.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, you know, they went to an awful lot of trouble to do this.
[38:06.560 --> 38:14.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: They wasted a lot of time, they wasted a lot of money, and it's really for no purpose whatsoever, just because someone else is using an account, you know?
[38:14.840 --> 38:24.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, but it just seems like there's something else going on, maybe that we're not being told, or possibly that remains unknown on the part of the university.
[38:24.340 --> 38:30.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, from what I understand, they got a complaint from somebody, saw this anarchist newsletter and said, Hey, look what your users are doing.
[38:31.280 --> 38:43.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they were able to determine that this wasn't the person that was supposed to be using the account, it was somebody else, therefore that person is in breach of contract, that person is violating the law, that person must be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
[38:44.100 --> 38:46.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was a nightmare for this guy.
[38:46.560 --> 39:01.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, but obviously, granted, it was a terrible thing that happened to him, but I'm trying to figure out, like, what enabled the university to make such a quick determination and take such strict legal action so quickly.
[39:01.720 --> 39:18.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, when you consider on the net in general, that there's literally thousands upon thousands of people running around, using all kinds of accounts that aren't theirs, and if you consider that people are doing all kinds of things like trading in copyrighted software or whatever,
[39:18.620 --> 39:35.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm not passing judgment on any of that behavior, but I'm saying that that happens all the time every day, and it's done by thousands of people all over the world, what was it that caused this one action by this one person doing something innocuous like making accessible a newsletter,
[39:35.920 --> 39:38.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: why did that attract so much attention?
[39:39.700 --> 39:48.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: where, obviously, much more, what law enforcement people would consider much more insipid behavior.
[39:48.800 --> 39:59.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, I'm going to read you something that answers that particular question, and this actually comes from the system administrator there, whose name is Jack Gorey,
[40:03.040 --> 40:16.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: and he says, when complaints were received in January 95 about the use of a University of Toronto account to publish an anarchist newsletter, the account holder, a female grad student, and her supervisor, who was paying the bills, were asked what they knew about this.
[40:16.500 --> 40:26.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: The student denied knowing anything except that when she was alerted, she tried to log in to see if she had any strange files, mail, etc., only to discover that her password had been changed.
[40:26.300 --> 40:29.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Given her story, we assumed someone had hacked the account.
[40:29.780 --> 40:34.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: A student knew we were alerted, and when the account continued to be used, we assumed that she was, indeed, telling the truth.
[40:34.480 --> 40:40.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: At that point, we had someone accessing the account by modem only, so we started monitoring the account to try and determine how they had broken in.
[40:41.260 --> 40:49.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because we presumed someone outside University of Toronto was stealing resources, we notified the University of Toronto Police, who, in turn, notified the Metro Toronto Police.
[40:49.660 --> 41:00.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: This was the first time ECF had called in the police, though other computer centers at University of Toronto have involved the police when faced with an external hacker.
[41:01.320 --> 41:09.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Jesse Hirsch presumably was unaware of the monitoring and in time provided his real name, Jesse, was mentioned from the beginning, but it was not clear whether he was the actual user.
[41:09.680 --> 41:11.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: The evidence was turned over to the police.
[41:11.400 --> 41:12.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: They made an arrest in March.
[41:12.480 --> 41:14.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: The trial date was finally set for September 7th.
[41:15.280 --> 41:23.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the day before, the female student came to my office to tell me that things had gone too far, that she had, in fact, given Hirsch the password and permission to use the account.
[41:23.560 --> 41:26.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: I asked if she had informed the police and her supervisor, and she said she had.
[41:27.260 --> 41:31.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the government withdrew the charges the next day, and Hirsch agreed to pay for computer usage.
[41:32.560 --> 41:37.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, then, what it sounds like to me is that he let it slip who he was, even if only by first name.
[41:37.740 --> 41:41.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: And based on that information, the police played on a hunch.
[41:41.520 --> 41:52.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, you know, even if it was the worst-case scenario, where somebody was, you know, breaking into an account, they broke into someone's account, they changed their password, they published an anarchist newsletter, does it really warrant this kind of response?
[41:52.820 --> 41:53.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, of course not.
[41:53.540 --> 42:02.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Someone with prison time for doing that, you close off the access, you make sure they can't do it again, you fix whatever damage was done, which doesn't seem like any damage was done, even if it wasn't with the person's permission.
[42:03.100 --> 42:07.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: It just seems like a tremendous overreaction, and, you know, what about real crimes going on out there?
[42:07.700 --> 42:07.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[42:08.080 --> 42:09.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sure Toronto has real crimes.
[42:09.500 --> 42:21.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I guess where I'm coming from is that it just really shocks me that such innocuous behavior would be zeroed in on so quickly and dealt with so strictly.
[42:21.900 --> 42:30.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, you know, people saying things without restriction is always a concern to any government, and I think it's no exception up there in Toronto.
[42:30.680 --> 42:32.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the same thing holds true at universities.
[42:32.500 --> 42:39.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, universities are supposed to be bastions of freedom of speech, but we see a lot of hypocrisy in many places where actually it's all about control.
[42:40.160 --> 42:40.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[42:41.120 --> 42:43.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[42:43.660 --> 42:47.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you have anything else you want to talk about, you want to talk about this case, feel free.
[42:47.480 --> 42:48.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's go to the rebel line.
[42:48.880 --> 42:49.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening, you're on.
[42:50.960 --> 42:51.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Go ahead.
[42:52.380 --> 42:52.780]  What's that?
[42:53.160 --> 42:53.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh.
[42:53.740 --> 42:54.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello, you there?
[42:54.380 --> 42:54.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, yeah.
[42:54.800 --> 42:56.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, you're on the rebel line, so I guess you're not rebel.
[42:56.920 --> 42:57.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's good.
[42:57.520 --> 42:57.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's fine.
[42:57.940 --> 42:58.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: No problem.
[42:58.340 --> 42:58.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Rebel is here.
[42:59.980 --> 43:00.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: No one did.
[43:01.040 --> 43:01.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh.
[43:01.740 --> 43:02.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Can you believe that?
[43:02.620 --> 43:03.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: He has an accomplice.
[43:04.600 --> 43:05.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, I have an accomplice.
[43:05.580 --> 43:06.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, my God.
[43:07.180 --> 43:08.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because you have something to decide.
[43:08.500 --> 43:08.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh.
[43:08.920 --> 43:11.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Back at the college I went to, they had a Vax.
[43:11.540 --> 43:11.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[43:11.900 --> 43:13.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: And there was a thing called Deck Notes.
[43:13.880 --> 43:16.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I found out that I could start my own conference on there.
[43:17.000 --> 43:21.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I just used my regular, you know, my regular account to do it, my name and everything.
[43:22.280 --> 43:27.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they eventually kicked me off for something stupid like using foul language or something.
[43:27.440 --> 43:27.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[43:27.740 --> 43:36.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: But it wasn't really anarchist what I was doing, but, you know, I was doing the same thing, telling them tricks on how to get around system stuff and everything.
[43:36.940 --> 43:37.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh...
[43:37.580 --> 43:38.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: So what happened?
[43:38.780 --> 43:45.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, they ended up taking away my account, which wasn't really a solution because one of the things I was doing was stealing passwords.
[43:46.140 --> 43:49.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: So it just shows you how stupid sysadmins are, I guess.
[43:49.980 --> 43:51.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, they can overreact.
[43:51.420 --> 43:52.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: They can miss what's really going on.
[43:53.040 --> 43:53.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's all kinds of things.
[43:53.940 --> 43:59.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're human beings, but lots of times they have a bit too much power over a lot of other people.
[44:00.580 --> 44:00.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Emmanuel.
[44:01.160 --> 44:01.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[44:01.660 --> 44:02.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was going to college.
[44:02.560 --> 44:05.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: They had a thing where the staff can look up students.
[44:07.140 --> 44:07.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's called...
[44:07.780 --> 44:09.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm not going to say the name of the account because...
[44:09.900 --> 44:10.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I guess I could say it.
[44:10.660 --> 44:11.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's InfoBoot, it's called.
[44:12.280 --> 44:12.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, um...
[44:12.760 --> 44:13.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Can he say that over the years?
[44:13.680 --> 44:13.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[44:14.100 --> 44:14.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[44:14.360 --> 44:15.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm getting a nod.
[44:15.120 --> 44:15.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can say that.
[44:16.200 --> 44:16.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: InfoBoot...
[44:16.520 --> 44:17.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't say it again.
[44:17.940 --> 44:18.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's say it once.
[44:19.900 --> 44:20.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[44:20.400 --> 44:21.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: The username was InfoBoot.
[44:21.840 --> 44:22.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, three times.
[44:23.100 --> 44:23.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, yeah.
[44:23.720 --> 44:24.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: We know what the username is now.
[44:25.100 --> 44:25.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Fine.
[44:25.840 --> 44:28.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, now, the password was the same as their username, and they never changed it.
[44:28.580 --> 44:29.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I went in there.
[44:29.820 --> 44:34.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: They never gave students access to the Internet, and I got access to the Internet through them.
[44:35.880 --> 44:36.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[44:37.240 --> 44:39.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, also, how do you trace a call that's in progress?
[44:39.900 --> 44:42.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: I know that in the movie Hackers, they say, oh, I want to trace a call in progress.
[44:43.020 --> 44:43.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Can you do that?
[44:43.940 --> 44:47.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, you should look to the movie Hackers for the answers to all your technical questions.
[44:48.420 --> 44:51.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, Phiber, I'm sure that maybe you've learned a thing or two from that film.
[44:51.200 --> 44:51.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[44:51.520 --> 44:53.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can explain to us what they were doing.
[44:53.460 --> 44:53.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Definitely.
[44:54.000 --> 44:56.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: A call can only be traced in progress.
[44:57.040 --> 45:02.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: If the call isn't in progress, and you determine who it was that called you, it's not considered a trace.
[45:02.520 --> 45:06.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, what if you get some dilithium crystals and...
[45:06.040 --> 45:06.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: And travel back in time.
[45:06.920 --> 45:07.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, exactly.
[45:07.720 --> 45:09.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: You could probably do something like that if you...
[45:09.360 --> 45:12.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, basically, I have yet to see a movie.
[45:12.520 --> 45:13.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Actually, I saw one movie.
[45:13.920 --> 45:19.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think it came out in the late 50s or early 60s, where there was a phone trace done that was actually a real trace.
[45:20.240 --> 45:27.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: But other than that, and all these Hollywood movies that glorify technology and sort of make things up as they go along.
[45:27.800 --> 45:30.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've never seen an actual realistic phone trace.
[45:30.160 --> 45:35.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's always some magical black box with headphones connected to it with the little display on it.
[45:35.280 --> 45:37.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: I thought the funniest one was the trace in sneakers.
[45:37.720 --> 45:37.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[45:38.120 --> 45:41.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Where they had this graphical interface going, where you could see what part...
[45:41.980 --> 45:42.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[45:42.180 --> 45:44.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: How far along in the trace they've come.
[45:44.380 --> 45:47.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, if you can see that information, then you're already connected to them.
[45:47.740 --> 45:47.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[45:47.860 --> 45:49.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, you should be able to get the whole thing.
[45:49.360 --> 45:52.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: But you could say, okay, they've traced me up to here, they've traced me up to there.
[45:52.240 --> 45:54.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're about to trace me back to where I really am, so I'd better hang up.
[45:55.120 --> 45:57.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, how would something like that work in the first place?
[45:58.260 --> 45:58.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[45:59.020 --> 45:59.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's nuts.
[46:00.060 --> 46:01.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, thanks so much for the call there.
[46:01.960 --> 46:03.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's go on to another call.
[46:03.200 --> 46:04.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[46:04.600 --> 46:10.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, um, I have a few comments, um, for about, um,
[46:17.640 --> 46:19.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: the price they charge.
[46:19.260 --> 46:21.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: They charge this guy, uh, they charge him $400?
[46:23.120 --> 46:26.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's what they, that's what they said, computer time costs.
[46:26.440 --> 46:26.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's another thing.
[46:27.060 --> 46:33.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, you know, like a very crazy figure that a lot of these system administrators come up with, charging people with, uh, with computer time.
[46:33.140 --> 46:47.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: When I was prosecuted for my particular computer crime back in the early 80s, they said that I used something like $200 worth of computer time, which at the time seemed fair because, you know, that or 50 years in prison, which was the other scenario they were presenting me with,
[46:47.700 --> 46:48.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: $200 didn't seem that bad.
[46:48.840 --> 46:53.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but when you look, look right down at it, how much does computer time really cost?
[46:53.100 --> 46:57.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's something that, uh, you know, is widely speculative, I think.
[46:57.720 --> 46:58.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hard to determine, right?
[46:58.840 --> 46:59.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Very.
[46:59.100 --> 47:03.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, um, I don't know if you know, but there's, um, you know the 800 number for ANI?
[47:03.760 --> 47:05.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: 800-MY-ANI-IS?
[47:05.600 --> 47:06.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, it's dead.
[47:06.320 --> 47:06.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: We know that.
[47:06.920 --> 47:10.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, do you have any, um, information about, you know, how, why that happened, or?
[47:10.760 --> 47:19.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, probably they got their bill, and they realized that tens of thousands of people around the country were calling to find out what their phone number was, and they were putting the bill for it, and I guess they just didn't feel like doing that anymore.
[47:19.780 --> 47:22.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, we gave out another number last week, but I don't have it on me right now.
[47:22.900 --> 47:24.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: But there are other numbers out there.
[47:24.860 --> 47:37.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: What you do is, you take your phone, and you start dialing 1-800, and start with, like, what, 2-2-1-0-0-0-0, and then keep going until you reach 9-9-9-9-9-9-9, and then you will have gotten all the 800 numbers.
[47:37.840 --> 47:42.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: But do it quickly, because next year there'll be triple-8 area code, and there'll be toll-free numbers there as well.
[47:43.920 --> 47:45.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right, well, you better get started then.
[47:45.880 --> 47:47.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: 2-1-2-2-7-9-3-4-100.
[47:47.920 --> 47:50.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: I sensed shock there when I said that to him.
[47:50.980 --> 47:51.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[47:51.980 --> 47:54.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, Emmanuel, I have a question.
[47:54.800 --> 47:59.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm on the HP UNIX system here at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
[47:59.260 --> 48:04.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I spent many, many frustrating hours on that very system.
[48:04.680 --> 48:05.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, boy.
[48:05.880 --> 48:07.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, wait, what server are you on?
[48:07.320 --> 48:10.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: The CSWS, what, the LIBWS, or the...
[48:10.580 --> 48:11.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: ENGWS.
[48:11.420 --> 48:11.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: ENGWS.
[48:12.060 --> 48:12.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Which one are you on?
[48:13.480 --> 48:15.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: LIBS, Workstation 1 through 4.
[48:15.620 --> 48:16.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Which one are you on?
[48:16.880 --> 48:19.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you can select which one's available, one or four.
[48:19.700 --> 48:26.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: I used to go on something like CSWS-19 or something, because I was the only one that had a decent response.
[48:26.840 --> 48:28.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I'm kind of new on the system.
[48:28.100 --> 48:37.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: My question is this, I've been sending email, and I've been using Netscape, you know, I've been on the alternative, you know, the alternative news groups.
[48:38.500 --> 48:39.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right, alt dot whatever.
[48:39.820 --> 48:42.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I've been on yours too, alt dot 2600.
[48:42.220 --> 48:49.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: My question is this, can anyone somewhere in the university know what system I'm on, you Sure.
[48:50.100 --> 48:51.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, what specifically are you asking?
[48:52.000 --> 48:52.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Give us a scenario.
[48:53.220 --> 48:56.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, alright, let's say I'm on alt dot 2600 and I'm looking around.
[48:57.160 --> 49:03.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Can somebody in some remote office, or wherever they are, pull up a screen and see exactly what I'm looking at?
[49:03.520 --> 49:07.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, they can't, as far as I understand, they can't watch what you're doing live.
[49:07.340 --> 49:07.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Sure they can.
[49:07.820 --> 49:15.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I mean, not graphically, nicely, like I think he, you know, watching his screen flipping by as he's doing, how would that work?
[49:15.800 --> 49:16.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: Actually, they could.
[49:16.780 --> 49:18.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that they couldn't do, but...
[49:18.040 --> 49:18.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, they could do.
[49:18.840 --> 49:19.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: They could?
[49:19.400 --> 49:19.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[49:19.680 --> 49:20.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Alright, how?
[49:20.160 --> 49:24.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, somebody could do, it will be a kernel level modification, not something extremely common.
[49:24.660 --> 49:29.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: But a lot more common than that, obviously, would be a packet sniffer, but that wouldn't give the nice clean output.
[49:29.520 --> 49:34.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: But even without any of that, all they have to do is look at your, the file in your directory.
[49:34.080 --> 49:40.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: They could look at his .newsrc file and see what newsgroups he's subscribed to and know that he's an alt.2600 reader.
[49:40.920 --> 49:43.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you could, that particular file, you should look at that file.
[49:43.600 --> 49:47.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: It tells you which messages you have read, which newsgroups you've looked at at any time.
[49:48.280 --> 49:50.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's really quite revealing, I think.
[49:51.140 --> 49:56.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: So is there a way to erase the hard drive of the computer that I'm working at after I'm done with the session?
[49:57.360 --> 50:08.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, what I would suggest doing is encrypting that .newsrc as you log out, and then when you log in, have it unencrypt so that if you decide to read news while you're logged in, they don't know what to look at.
[50:09.460 --> 50:10.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know how to do that.
[50:10.480 --> 50:11.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've only been on the system for a week.
[50:12.160 --> 50:12.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[50:12.540 --> 50:14.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it's not something that's very common.
[50:14.280 --> 50:18.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're trying to spread things like that around, so people use encryption a lot.
[50:18.500 --> 50:22.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: But that's really, I think, the only thing that will prevent that particular type of snooping.
[50:22.560 --> 50:28.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: But as far as live, real-time spying, I mean, what can people do about that?
[50:29.460 --> 50:30.160]  [SPEAKER_21]: Really, nothing.
[50:30.440 --> 50:40.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, if someone actually did do a modification, to the operating system, to allow what could be called auditing of Internet services on the socket level.
[50:40.900 --> 50:44.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just didn't want to get kicked off, because this is my only way to get on the Internet at the moment.
[50:45.180 --> 50:47.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, wait, you're afraid you'll get kicked off because you're reading something?
[50:47.880 --> 50:49.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, the alternative, you know, they're pretty controversial.
[50:50.360 --> 50:51.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, so, you're in a university.
[50:51.960 --> 50:53.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, that's what universities are for, is for controversy.
[50:54.080 --> 50:55.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Read whatever you want, post whatever you want.
[50:55.800 --> 50:58.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, universities started the alt hierarchy.
[50:58.300 --> 50:58.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[50:59.340 --> 51:01.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, you really shouldn't be afraid of this.
[51:01.060 --> 51:03.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: The worst kind of censorship is self-censorship.
[51:03.400 --> 51:07.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't think that they're out to, you know, to cut you off if you do something bad.
[51:08.700 --> 51:09.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Experiment.
[51:09.360 --> 51:10.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what it's for.
[51:10.160 --> 51:10.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Experiment.
[51:10.540 --> 51:13.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Read whatever you want, post whatever you want, communicate with whoever you want.
[51:13.900 --> 51:21.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think if you carry the values that you use in your day-to-day life and carry that over to the Internet, you won't be violating anyone else's rights.
[51:21.380 --> 51:26.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, because I tried to post something, but since I'm new, I didn't, I don't know what screen to go to.
[51:26.340 --> 51:28.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: I didn't find out how to post a message or anything.
[51:28.580 --> 51:29.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's pretty easy, actually.
[51:29.580 --> 51:31.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: What newsreader are you using?
[51:31.700 --> 51:38.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, I got on, okay, first I got on Windows, then I got on Netscape, and then I went to the alternative newsgroups.
[51:38.700 --> 51:40.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: Oh, so you're using the Netscape newsreader?
[51:40.860 --> 51:41.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, Netscape.
[51:41.520 --> 51:41.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[51:41.980 --> 51:43.120]  [SPEAKER_22]: What's the command to post there?
[51:43.600 --> 51:45.880]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, off the top of my head, I don't remember.
[51:45.880 --> 51:47.420]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, there must be a help key somewhere, right?
[51:47.900 --> 51:48.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I'll try to find out.
[51:48.920 --> 51:50.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I just have one last comment.
[51:50.420 --> 51:57.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, I called the 1-800 number directory to find out what the status on the, you know, 1-800-ANI was about a month ago.
[51:57.640 --> 51:58.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, they're not going to tell you.
[51:58.640 --> 52:00.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: That was an unlisted number, I think, wasn't it?
[52:00.260 --> 52:05.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, what I did was, uh, I asked who's the server, like who services this number, and they said it was MCI.
[52:06.120 --> 52:18.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I called MCI, and I got transferred to about 10 different people, and finally one person told me that, um, it's a company out in California which pays for this number, but they wouldn't tell me the company name.
[52:19.220 --> 52:24.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: And one guy was trying to lie to me, I think he was trying to cover up something, he said, oh, it's a fax number.
[52:24.680 --> 52:38.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's no way it's a fax number, because when you dial it now, you get a low tone, you know, humming noise, and when you punch in like about three or four numbers, uh, it says, you know, you have entered a false or incorrect, uh, password.
[52:39.100 --> 52:41.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: So there's got to be a correct password to this.
[52:46.400 --> 52:47.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what the number's for.
[52:47.840 --> 52:55.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh, you might want to be careful about that, because once you start entering a password, uh, it's, um, you know, you're, you're saying you're somebody you're not.
[52:55.440 --> 52:59.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: And when you give your home number out, and you do something like that, you could be facing some, uh, some questions.
[53:00.220 --> 53:01.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I've got to watch that.
[53:01.280 --> 53:01.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[53:01.940 --> 53:02.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, thanks a lot, guys.
[53:03.000 --> 53:03.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[53:03.700 --> 53:11.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: One, one thing people do have to look forward to is, uh, is nationwide ANI, and then you won't even need an 800 number like that, uh, to, to test out your number.
[53:11.360 --> 53:17.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can call a perfect stranger in Toledo and say, hey, what number is showing up on your caller ID box, and they'll be more than happy to tell you.
[53:18.540 --> 53:22.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that supposedly is going to go into effect as of December 1st.
[53:23.020 --> 53:23.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Are you ready, Phiber?
[53:24.140 --> 53:25.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: What, for nationwide caller ID?
[53:25.780 --> 53:26.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's right.
[53:26.560 --> 53:27.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, yeah.
[53:27.060 --> 53:27.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Actually, did I say ANI?
[53:27.980 --> 53:28.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: I meant caller ID.
[53:28.620 --> 53:29.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, you meant caller ID.
[53:29.100 --> 53:30.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I'm all confused.
[53:30.420 --> 53:34.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: But let's, uh, let's try the, uh, the 1-800, uh, MY-ANI-IS number.
[53:35.120 --> 53:36.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: See just what it is that people get.
[53:36.900 --> 53:37.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you have a dial tone?
[53:37.620 --> 53:37.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[53:44.280 --> 53:45.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: This used to tell you your phone number.
[53:45.720 --> 53:46.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now it does something different.
[53:47.260 --> 53:47.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Ooh.
[53:47.600 --> 53:48.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, it's a tone.
[53:48.960 --> 53:49.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[53:49.360 --> 53:50.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that you or them?
[53:50.400 --> 53:52.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, we don't give tones on 800s.
[53:52.340 --> 53:52.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, okay.
[53:53.440 --> 53:54.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Are you giving me a code?
[53:55.480 --> 53:56.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can't enter that.
[53:57.380 --> 53:58.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: This one has a code.
[53:58.520 --> 53:59.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't believe this.
[53:59.340 --> 54:01.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: The code you have dialed is invalid.
[54:02.600 --> 54:03.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: 2BK.
[54:03.960 --> 54:04.780]  [SPEAKER_22]: MCR recording.
[54:04.980 --> 54:05.380]  [SPEAKER_22]: Three-digit code.
[54:05.380 --> 54:09.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: The authorization code, or ID code, you have dialed is invalid.
[54:10.820 --> 54:11.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: 2BK.
[54:11.700 --> 54:14.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, um, you have a three-digit code.
[54:15.080 --> 54:15.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, hold on.
[54:16.660 --> 54:18.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just going to see if this actually still works.
[54:24.980 --> 54:25.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, what do you got?
[54:26.500 --> 54:26.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Whoops.
[54:27.840 --> 54:29.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm going to not enter this, uh, out.
[54:30.300 --> 54:31.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, let's see if this actually works.
[54:37.610 --> 54:38.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: Your ANI...
[54:38.570 --> 54:39.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, how about that?
[54:39.930 --> 54:41.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: 2, 1, 2.
[54:41.870 --> 54:43.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, well, it does work.
[54:43.910 --> 54:45.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, how about that?
[54:45.450 --> 54:47.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, three-digit codes are what it takes.
[54:47.650 --> 54:50.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know how people are getting these, these, uh... So, the number is still there.
[54:51.270 --> 54:53.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you have a three-digit code, you'll, you'll get it.
[54:53.230 --> 54:58.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, I guess if, if they get upset by that, I'll, I'll pay them the ten cents I just spent to find out what the number is.
[54:58.810 --> 54:59.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: I already know.
[54:59.270 --> 55:00.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, all right.
[55:00.830 --> 55:08.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: I might suggest if they want to keep this, uh, if they want to keep this a little, uh, more secure, they use something longer than three digits.
[55:08.330 --> 55:08.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[55:08.730 --> 55:10.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's only a thousand possibilities.
[55:10.710 --> 55:12.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sure there's more than one code.
[55:12.410 --> 55:14.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-279-3400.
[55:14.190 --> 55:14.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[55:14.590 --> 55:15.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[55:15.610 --> 55:17.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, um, there's a small technical point.
[55:18.010 --> 55:23.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: I never thought I'd be able to answer something that you could catch in a technical mistake.
[55:23.370 --> 55:23.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[55:23.630 --> 55:32.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I think that someone could monitor you live, um, without much modification to the, to the, um, operating system.
[55:32.950 --> 55:39.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: Just by, they can, there's a way to call up your window and to look at basically everything that, that's going on in the window.
[55:39.910 --> 55:50.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, if you were using Netscape, um, somebody, like a super user, could just, um, look at exactly what you're looking at.
[55:50.430 --> 55:51.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, how would they do that?
[55:52.750 --> 55:53.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: I, I don't know.
[55:53.950 --> 55:55.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't have technical knowledge to it, but I...
[55:55.490 --> 55:56.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: You, you're talking about an X-Windows?
[55:57.190 --> 55:57.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[55:57.890 --> 56:09.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, if somebody's using X-Windows, and some, and, uh, the super user does, uh, an X-Windows dump, XWD, then they'd be able to take a, a graphical snapshot of your screen, if that's what you're saying.
[56:09.590 --> 56:10.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: But that's just a snapshot.
[56:10.570 --> 56:11.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not live action.
[56:11.170 --> 56:13.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, no, it's, you can't, there is no live action spying.
[56:14.130 --> 56:17.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I'm sure it's not, it's not a trivial matter to write something that would do that.
[56:18.650 --> 56:25.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, well, just what I'm saying, it's something that certainly certainly is possible, but there is no trivial built-in method to do something like that.
[56:26.990 --> 56:28.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, does that answer your question?
[56:28.350 --> 56:28.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[56:28.890 --> 56:29.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, thanks very much.
[56:30.630 --> 56:31.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[56:32.270 --> 56:32.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[56:33.190 --> 56:34.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, no, you've been on too many times.
[56:35.290 --> 56:36.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Too many times.
[56:36.450 --> 56:41.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, we may have to have a, uh, a, a, a monthly curfew for that particular call.
[56:41.910 --> 56:42.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[56:44.750 --> 56:49.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I don't know which is, which, which one I would prefer to hear more.
[56:49.750 --> 56:52.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: That one, or, oh, never mind, never mind.
[56:52.530 --> 56:53.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[56:54.370 --> 56:56.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm relatively certain this one is neither of the other two.
[56:56.790 --> 56:58.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, okay, see, I knew that.
[56:58.510 --> 57:00.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, in regards to your call ID?
[57:00.330 --> 57:00.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, go ahead.
[57:01.050 --> 57:04.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'm getting numbers showing up, 804-601-213.
[57:05.170 --> 57:06.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it is in place.
[57:06.450 --> 57:08.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of long-distance carriers are already using it.
[57:08.610 --> 57:11.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, some have been using it, uh, I think up to a year now.
[57:11.190 --> 57:11.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[57:11.710 --> 57:16.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, but it's supposedly going to be in place everywhere by every carrier by December 1st.
[57:16.910 --> 57:20.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and also, um, NYNEX offers a free block, automatic block on your line.
[57:21.070 --> 57:21.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[57:21.570 --> 57:23.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've heard that's showing up out of state on me.
[57:24.010 --> 57:31.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, the thing is, it's not supposed to, but, um, the NYNEX, originally the call blocking that NYNEX offered was only for NYNEX areas.
[57:31.570 --> 57:40.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, the initial, um, uh, version of the nationwide caller ID, uh, didn't allow for blocking to cross state lines.
[57:40.650 --> 57:48.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: I believe the blocking that takes effect, or the caller ID, nationwide caller ID that takes effect on December 1st has to respect whatever blocking you have in place.
[57:49.310 --> 57:51.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, so it should not be doing that.
[57:51.290 --> 57:53.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: It certainly shouldn't be doing that after December 1st.
[57:53.770 --> 57:57.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, dial star 6-7 beforehand and see if it still does that.
[57:57.270 --> 58:05.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: And if, if, if you're continuing to get your number, uh, being shown across state lines, uh, you may very well have, uh, a good case to complain about to the FCC.
[58:05.450 --> 58:06.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, well, I'm already complaining about it.
[58:07.110 --> 58:10.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, you should, definitely, because, uh, privacy is something you need to, uh, to hold on to.
[58:11.270 --> 58:12.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, one last question.
[58:12.350 --> 58:14.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: In regards to the National Annie, which one was that you call it?
[58:14.670 --> 58:15.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: My Annie is?
[58:15.450 --> 58:16.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's right.
[58:16.530 --> 58:17.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: What's the code?
[58:17.270 --> 58:18.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, we can't tell you the code.
[58:18.870 --> 58:19.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: We can't do that.
[58:20.090 --> 58:21.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, it's bad enough we dialed it ourselves.
[58:22.290 --> 58:25.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh, just suffice to say there are codes and they do work.
[58:26.150 --> 58:27.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: The second 800 number that did the same.
[58:28.390 --> 58:29.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, we had that last week.
[58:29.690 --> 58:30.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: I, I didn't write it down.
[58:30.890 --> 58:31.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: I, I wrote it down.
[58:31.610 --> 58:32.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: I didn't bring it with me.
[58:32.890 --> 58:33.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is it still up?
[58:33.710 --> 58:34.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it is.
[58:34.930 --> 58:38.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, because the one I've been trying to have, both I've had two and both I've tried to have.
[58:38.230 --> 58:39.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: And one last question.
[58:39.670 --> 58:39.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[58:40.190 --> 58:44.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: In regards to the 900, um, Criss-Cross directories, the type you call it, the code directory online.
[58:44.670 --> 58:44.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[58:45.650 --> 58:48.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, are they getting this off, like, this is CD-ROM?
[58:48.810 --> 58:55.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, they could be, I mean, it probably is a CD-ROM, but, uh, as to what their actual sources are, there's, there's a number of those products floating around.
[58:55.430 --> 58:58.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but, um, most likely it's a commercial, something anyone could just purchase?
[58:58.810 --> 58:59.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[58:59.770 --> 59:00.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, thanks, man.
[59:00.590 --> 59:00.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[59:00.910 --> 59:01.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good show.
[59:01.210 --> 59:01.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right, thank you.
[59:02.350 --> 59:09.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, as far as, you know, people wanting to find out what their phone numbers are, I don't really see what the big deal is, because, uh, ANAC numbers are, are pretty commonplace.
[59:10.050 --> 59:10.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[59:10.250 --> 59:14.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Most of our listening area, 958, will get you your phone number, and there's no charge for that.
[59:15.070 --> 59:15.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's a local thing.
[59:16.290 --> 59:20.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, some other areas, uh, 511, some, some places, both of them work.
[59:21.230 --> 59:24.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, um, other places, you know, who knows?
[59:24.490 --> 59:25.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: There might be different ones.
[59:25.470 --> 59:29.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: 311 works in some places, and there's all kinds of bizarre, uh, versions of that.
[59:31.250 --> 59:33.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: So you sometimes, uh, sometimes, sometimes that is an option.
[59:33.970 --> 59:34.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening, you're on.
[59:36.070 --> 59:36.770]  Oh, hi.
[59:37.150 --> 59:37.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, go ahead.
[59:38.410 --> 59:46.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, you, uh, made reference for, to a company in the area that is advertising, uh, that they are uncensored Internet access?
[59:46.870 --> 59:49.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, we didn't make reference to a company in the area.
[59:50.050 --> 59:53.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I, I know, I've seen ads for, uh, for, was it IDT?
[59:53.170 --> 59:53.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is that the one?
[59:53.830 --> 59:55.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's, that, that, that's them.
[59:55.470 --> 01:00:04.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, I'd like people to know that it's a company that is offering Internet access at a good price, but they're definitely not uncensored.
[01:00:04.810 --> 01:00:05.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, okay, how do you figure that?
[01:00:06.010 --> 01:00:17.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, they, uh, I had a, uh, shell account on Friday, got initiated, and did some checking of the, uh, alternate news groups that were available and found that a lot of them were not.
[01:00:18.390 --> 01:00:24.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: And when I called them on it, they said, well, that's not us, that's the news server in the New York area.
[01:00:25.370 --> 01:00:30.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, it's sort of like putting a rope around your neck and saying, well, gee, it's not me, it's the, it's the rope.
[01:00:30.230 --> 01:00:31.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, now this is IDT.
[01:00:31.510 --> 01:00:32.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is IDT.
[01:00:32.410 --> 01:00:36.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right, so we have to find out who their, uh, news feed comes from.
[01:00:36.210 --> 01:00:40.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're saying that they're not censoring it, it's the people providing their news feed that's censoring it.
[01:00:40.130 --> 01:00:40.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[01:00:41.110 --> 01:00:43.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right, well, I mean, that's, you're right, that's passing the buck.
[01:00:43.470 --> 01:00:45.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: They, they really shouldn't be doing that, but, uh...
[01:00:45.810 --> 01:01:00.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, and they were aware of it because when I first spoke to them, they gave me a couple of ways of changing it in Netscape, changing my newsreader, uh, not my newsreader, of my new server, and gave me one that were, would give me full access, and then,
[01:01:00.570 --> 01:01:05.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: of course, I had to tell them I don't have a Slip account, I'm not using Netscape, I'm, you know, Shell.
[01:01:05.890 --> 01:01:06.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's just a Shell account, right.
[01:01:07.050 --> 01:01:12.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm basically out of luck, and they said that they had no intention of changing the situation for the foreseeable future.
[01:01:12.770 --> 01:01:18.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, what was, uh, give us the name of one of the, one of the news groups, assuming that it's, uh, you know, the name you can say over the air.
[01:01:19.430 --> 01:01:23.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, well, as the old, not sex hierarchy, it was, was the one.
[01:01:23.770 --> 01:01:37.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: I, I have a, set of four that I, uh, used to check, but I will say that, uh, one that was very innocuous that was not showing up was, so, all dot binaries, pictures, children.
[01:01:37.850 --> 01:01:38.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:01:38.490 --> 01:01:41.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, now that's pictures of, you know, people's kids.
[01:01:42.190 --> 01:01:44.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, well, basically, we will look into that and see...
[01:01:44.830 --> 01:01:46.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: I know, there's been no, you know, nothing untwilled.
[01:01:46.810 --> 01:01:54.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: If the news group is available in other places, and then, and IDC is saying that, uh, that they don't censor, then, uh, they certainly should live up to that.
[01:01:54.210 --> 01:01:55.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll check into that, and we'll get back to you.
[01:01:55.710 --> 01:01:56.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're out of time.
[01:01:56.670 --> 01:02:10.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: We want to thank everybody for, uh, for calling in and for listening, and we'll be back again next week with a, um, another show, I guess, uh, updates as to what's going on, and we'll let you know how the Bernie S, uh, hearing goes this Friday.
[01:02:11.370 --> 01:02:15.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: Stay tuned next Tuesday night, 8 to 9 o'clock, and, uh, we'll see you then.
[01:02:15.950 --> 01:02:17.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[01:02:17.270 --> 01:02:17.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good night.