Off The Hook - 1996-02-13

[01:04.180 --> 01:06.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: You are tuned to Hi-Fi.
[01:07.020 --> 01:09.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: WBAI 99.5 on your FM dial.
[01:10.320 --> 01:10.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: New York.
[01:10.960 --> 01:16.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, this is Joe Franklin broadcasting on radio station WBAI.
[01:16.420 --> 01:19.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's 99.5% all-natural and preservative-free.
[01:20.960 --> 01:22.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: WBAI-FM in New York.
[01:23.020 --> 01:24.640]  [SPEAKER_00]: I love this radio station.
[01:28.080 --> 01:30.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you are listening to WBAI in New York.
[01:30.780 --> 01:36.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: And according to this radio station, it is now 4 o'clock, but that's a problem with our clock, which we'll have to fix.
[01:36.520 --> 01:39.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's really 8 o'clock, which means it's time for...
[01:40.520 --> 01:41.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Off the Hook.
[01:45.540 --> 02:07.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off and lost I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call It couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would For Billy Bon for the best to stay for worse I hope that's understood But Billy Bon!
[07:09.640 --> 07:11.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[07:11.360 --> 07:13.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[07:13.200 --> 07:15.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[07:17.020 --> 07:20.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, boy, you know, I wish people could see what kinds of things that went on in here.
[07:21.420 --> 07:23.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's always fun.
[07:23.400 --> 07:25.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's always a bit of carnival atmosphere here.
[07:26.420 --> 07:35.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, we are together once again tonight to talk about the remnants of Freedom on the Net and what has been happening over the past week or so.
[07:35.360 --> 07:36.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Fiber, uh, you're here as well?
[07:36.800 --> 07:37.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm here as well.
[07:37.940 --> 07:38.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: How you doing?
[07:38.420 --> 07:39.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: What's been new this week?
[07:40.080 --> 07:43.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, well, I've been handed this magazine.
[07:43.440 --> 07:43.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: You have?
[07:44.140 --> 07:45.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: You've been handed a magazine, huh?
[07:45.980 --> 07:47.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's always fun.
[07:47.240 --> 07:48.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: What magazine were you handed?
[07:48.240 --> 07:50.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, uh, it's called Freedom.
[07:50.520 --> 07:50.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[07:50.980 --> 07:52.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Published by the Church of Scientology.
[07:53.560 --> 07:58.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, is that one of those, uh, sort of, like, uh, you know, uh, black-white things?
[07:58.660 --> 08:01.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the Church of Scientology publishes something called Freedom, and, uh...
[08:01.900 --> 08:07.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's one of those things that you get handed on the subway that you get really pissed off when somebody does that.
[08:07.360 --> 08:07.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[08:08.040 --> 08:09.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, no one's ever handed me that on the subway.
[08:10.260 --> 08:15.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, do they still make that magazine called The Plain Truth that they always used to give out for free?
[08:15.420 --> 08:15.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[08:15.820 --> 08:17.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I never could figure that one out.
[08:17.840 --> 08:23.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, well, I've got some interesting, uh, posts from a bulletin board here, which, uh, pertains to the Bernie S.
[08:24.040 --> 08:24.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: case.
[08:25.180 --> 08:26.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I've got a letter.
[08:26.720 --> 08:29.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, why don't you tell us, uh, are there any, are there any highlights there?
[08:29.340 --> 08:30.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, yeah, there's a couple of highlights.
[08:31.160 --> 08:31.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, tell us the highlights.
[08:31.800 --> 08:32.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've got some highlights here as well.
[08:33.040 --> 08:37.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's, um, there's some, some criticism of your, your favorite news group, Alt.2600.
[08:37.700 --> 08:38.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's my favorite news group?
[08:39.040 --> 08:40.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I guess, I guess...
[08:40.640 --> 08:42.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was kind of created...
[08:42.380 --> 08:43.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was, it was sort of created.
[08:43.440 --> 08:44.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: ...in relation to the magazine.
[08:45.100 --> 08:45.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[08:46.280 --> 08:50.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it says, uh, a sample of what was found tells the story.
[08:50.720 --> 08:59.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: How to rip off a change machine, how to make local and long-distance calls without paying, how to see paid TV in a hotel without being charged for it.
[09:00.420 --> 09:02.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Then there were also such entries...
[09:02.480 --> 09:03.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: How did they find that information on there?
[09:03.620 --> 09:03.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: What's that?
[09:03.760 --> 09:07.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've been looking for information like that on Alt.2600 for a long time, and I can never find it.
[09:07.660 --> 09:12.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: All I find are people flaming each other and insulting each other and talking about their lineage and things like that.
[09:12.120 --> 09:13.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they're the Church of Scientology.
[09:13.580 --> 09:14.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: They have thousands of followers.
[09:14.780 --> 09:17.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're just probably assigned a couple of people.
[09:18.000 --> 09:21.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: They have people in the Church of Scientology actually going through all Alt.2600 looking for...
[09:21.500 --> 09:22.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, somebody had to do this.
[09:23.140 --> 09:23.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: I guess.
[09:24.120 --> 09:24.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[09:24.460 --> 09:25.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a really great quote.
[09:26.020 --> 09:30.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: It says, this is apparently a quote from someone who posted on the news group.
[09:30.900 --> 09:34.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe one day software will be sold at a fair price.
[09:34.440 --> 09:39.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe one day upgrades won't come out every three months with features that should have been in the original.
[09:39.600 --> 09:41.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, isn't that something that you always say?
[09:41.040 --> 09:41.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-oh.
[09:42.000 --> 09:42.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're quoting me?
[09:44.160 --> 09:47.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: But now there's something strange that I don't think you would have said.
[09:47.960 --> 09:50.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Something along the lines of a vive la revolution.
[09:50.680 --> 09:52.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll never make that assumption, but okay, go ahead.
[09:53.740 --> 09:56.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just a dream of mine, but it could happen.
[09:56.380 --> 10:02.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is, if we all do our duty to God and pirate every damn piece of software we can get our hands on.
[10:02.040 --> 10:04.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, you see, that's not me, because I would not use damn in a sentence.
[10:05.240 --> 10:05.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[10:05.640 --> 10:08.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know software piracy was duty to God either.
[10:08.080 --> 10:11.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't use myself as, you know, an epithet, but I would never use it in a sentence like that.
[10:11.420 --> 10:11.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[10:12.280 --> 10:13.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just great.
[10:13.040 --> 10:15.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're basically criticizing the news group.
[10:15.220 --> 10:15.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[10:15.480 --> 10:16.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: But what's the point?
[10:16.760 --> 10:18.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: What is their overall point?
[10:18.400 --> 10:22.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: The overall point, the title of the article is The Open Door to Piracy.
[10:22.380 --> 10:22.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[10:23.960 --> 10:29.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it says, The Truth About Why Some Access Providers Have Become a Part of the Problem of Internet Piracy.
[10:29.580 --> 10:32.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, is our news group part of the problem of Internet Piracy?
[10:33.040 --> 10:33.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's apparently...
[10:33.760 --> 10:36.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: On the high seas, or what exactly is it they're saying?
[10:36.600 --> 10:44.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think we could sum it up with the old 60s slogan that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
[10:44.640 --> 10:44.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[10:45.680 --> 10:47.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: But they tend to think that you're part of the problem.
[10:47.680 --> 10:48.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I guess I am part of the problem.
[10:48.860 --> 10:49.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not the first time I've heard that.
[10:49.760 --> 10:51.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: But what is the solution?
[10:51.640 --> 10:53.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is it a solution to just shut us down?
[10:53.380 --> 10:54.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is it to censor us?
[10:55.480 --> 10:56.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's really hard to say.
[10:57.140 --> 11:03.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they don't... it doesn't look like they're really offering too many solutions other than, I don't know.
[11:03.280 --> 11:05.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't cut to the chase at any point there.
[11:05.560 --> 11:11.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, on only a few pages later, they're talking about freedom of speech at risk in cyberspace.
[11:11.940 --> 11:14.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought they were the very people that were putting it at risk.
[11:14.700 --> 11:14.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[11:14.940 --> 11:15.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Very confusing.
[11:16.220 --> 11:16.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, okay.
[11:16.720 --> 11:19.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they're criticizing our friend Dave Lamacchia in Boston.
[11:20.040 --> 11:20.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, really?
[11:20.680 --> 11:20.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[11:21.080 --> 11:27.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: The guy who was accused of software piracy running an FSP site, and then in the end he was acquitted.
[11:27.620 --> 11:32.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they basically say his acts effectively destroyed the value of scores of programs.
[11:33.300 --> 11:33.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[11:35.320 --> 11:35.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[11:36.360 --> 11:38.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I feel for them, I guess.
[11:38.540 --> 11:38.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[11:38.920 --> 11:40.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, I have something here.
[11:40.420 --> 11:43.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you can look at that a little bit more and see if you find any more stunning quotes.
[11:43.920 --> 11:48.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, what I have is a piece by Kathleen Cleaver.
[11:48.260 --> 11:50.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if she's related to Beaver, but, uh...
[11:51.580 --> 11:54.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, judging from what she says, she very well might be.
[11:54.320 --> 11:57.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is the kind of thing you'd expect to see on 50s TV shows.
[11:57.660 --> 12:01.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, this comes from an editorial called Kids Need Protection in Cyberspace Too.
[12:02.020 --> 12:07.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, a federal court recently upheld the felony convictions of Robert and Carlene Thomas for their computer bulletin board.
[12:07.900 --> 12:10.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: You may recall, uh, Robert Thomas was on this program a number of years ago.
[12:11.500 --> 12:14.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, the board he ran was Amateur Action.
[12:14.220 --> 12:15.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was an adult-oriented bulletin board.
[12:16.380 --> 12:27.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, the, uh, going back to the article, the entrepreneurial couple made a mint by selling unspeakably graphic computer images of children raped by their parents, women-tortured, and bestiality scenes.
[12:28.220 --> 12:34.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: There must have been some hidden rooms on that board, because I was, I was on it just looking around, and, uh, you know, I don't know.
[12:34.460 --> 12:38.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe, maybe she just reads into a lot of things.
[12:38.060 --> 12:38.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't really know.
[12:38.940 --> 12:51.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, a leader among, quote-unquote, adult, uh, computer services, Amateur Action advertised on the Internet by floating free teaser images, including one of a woman nailed to the table by her genitals.
[12:52.660 --> 12:55.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, I also do a fair amount of cruising on the net.
[12:56.320 --> 12:58.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't recall seeing a picture like that either.
[12:58.420 --> 12:59.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: How would you do that?
[12:59.600 --> 13:00.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to figure that out, too.
[13:01.100 --> 13:03.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: It might be illegal for us to even try to figure that out.
[13:03.020 --> 13:11.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, but, I think, you know, it's, it's, it's unfair to judge this unless we have the picture in front of us and we can see exactly what it is we're talking about.
[13:11.600 --> 13:13.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: It could be a mock photo.
[13:13.780 --> 13:14.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: It could be a joke.
[13:15.140 --> 13:16.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: It could be, you know, a cartoon.
[13:17.040 --> 13:17.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Who knows?
[13:17.900 --> 13:20.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, this is something that, that is, that is said for shock value.
[13:21.300 --> 13:25.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, a woman nailed, nailed to, uh, to a table by, by her genitals.
[13:25.780 --> 13:32.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you know, it's kind of hard to stand up and say, well, you know, I think, you know, children, uh, wouldn't be affected by seeing something like that.
[13:32.440 --> 13:34.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's hard to stand up in front of a crowd and say that.
[13:35.280 --> 13:42.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, you know, when you have it in front of you and you can view it in context, then maybe, you know, we can actually have an intelligent discussion about this.
[13:43.180 --> 13:45.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, anyway, that's her lead paragraph.
[13:45.720 --> 13:46.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Shocking?
[13:46.780 --> 13:47.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Extremely.
[13:47.100 --> 13:59.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: The ACLU and other civil liberty groups tried to, and she puts civil liberty in big quotes, by the way, uh, tried to defend the Thomases by chanting the free speech mantra and howling about cyber community rights.
[13:59.380 --> 14:01.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, thankfully, the court was unmoved.
[14:02.180 --> 14:10.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Thomases were convicted of the federal crime of selling obscenity to adults, but if their customers had been teenagers and their pornography soft core, they would be scot-free.
[14:10.980 --> 14:17.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: That is, before the Communications Decency Act, part of the telecommunications law signed by President Bill Clinton last week.
[14:18.320 --> 14:23.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: The act prohibits the knowing distribution or display of porn to children via computers.
[14:24.060 --> 14:27.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: It does not prevent adults from receiving or accessing it.
[14:28.060 --> 14:30.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, there is nothing novel about this new law.
[14:30.600 --> 14:34.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: We have long embraced laws that protect children from exploitation by adults.
[14:34.160 --> 14:38.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: We protect adults from selling porn magazines or renting X-rated videos to children.
[14:38.520 --> 14:42.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: We also require adult bookstores to distance themselves from schools and playgrounds.
[14:42.380 --> 14:44.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do these laws limit adults' freedom?
[14:44.540 --> 14:45.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Of course they do.
[14:45.860 --> 14:48.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, are they reasonable and necessary anyway?
[14:48.720 --> 14:49.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Few would dispute it.
[14:50.220 --> 15:02.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Specifically, the Communications Decency Act protects children from, quote, indecent, unquote, material, which the law defines as patently offensive depictions or descriptions of sexual or excretory activities or organs.
[15:03.200 --> 15:09.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, now, you see, here's where the problem begins, because the definition of indecency is something that we at the radio station are very familiar with.
[15:09.820 --> 15:28.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it pretty much encompasses any rap song you might want to play, certain radio plays or comedy routines, or lots and lots of things that a child traveling with his minister father some Sunday afternoon might be affected by in some way by somebody's viewpoint.
[15:29.200 --> 15:31.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Indecency is a very nebulous term.
[15:31.900 --> 15:38.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it encompasses the seven dirty words, plus a whole lot of other words and references and things like that.
[15:38.720 --> 15:48.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: In other words, you know, like HBO shows certain things on TV, but you can't say it on the radio, you can't say it on regular TV, because of the indecency clause.
[15:49.020 --> 15:57.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not obscene, and it's not illegal, but you can get fined if you do it on the radio or if you do it on free TV.
[15:58.040 --> 16:00.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, uh, that's the first problem right there.
[16:01.380 --> 16:06.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Continuing with the article, some free speech zealots don't like this standard and are promising a challenge in court.
[16:06.200 --> 16:07.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: The threat is hardly ominous.
[16:07.520 --> 16:11.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: The indecency standard has survived numerous core challenges by friends of the porn industry.
[16:12.720 --> 16:17.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Communications Decency Act will not criminalize Shakespeare or Joyce.
[16:18.880 --> 16:25.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Indecency laws require the courts to evaluate material in its context, taking into account things such as literary value.
[16:25.620 --> 16:26.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, no, that's just the thing.
[16:26.840 --> 16:31.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you want Ms. Beaver Cleaver here to be telling you what is of literary value and what is not?
[16:31.720 --> 16:33.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Who's going to make that decision, you know?
[16:33.620 --> 16:44.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: We can air something here at Pacifica Radio, and the folks here at this radio station and most of our listeners will consider it to be of artistic merit, but somebody from Memphis, Tennessee may not feel the same way.
[16:44.800 --> 17:01.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: When you start putting community standards as the rule to how to judge something on the Internet, you have to go by the most broad spectrum of community standards, which means whatever it is that won't offend anybody.
[17:01.820 --> 17:06.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, of course, that's what offends me the most, is something that won't offend anybody.
[17:07.620 --> 17:15.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: So that's a big problem right there, and that's the point we just can't seem to make, you know, that literary value.
[17:15.240 --> 17:23.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's something that the people who are the artists, they are the ones that define what is of literary value and what is not.
[17:23.020 --> 17:30.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Not the politicians, not the special interest groups, not the radical right or the Christian coalition.
[17:31.000 --> 17:32.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's up to the artist, you know?
[17:32.660 --> 17:34.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: And if you don't like it, you don't have to look at it.
[17:34.820 --> 17:35.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to listen to it.
[17:36.440 --> 17:41.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: On the Internet, though, that's going to be rather difficult because it's not a broadcast medium.
[17:42.120 --> 17:46.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's rather everybody has the right to say whatever it is they want to say.
[17:46.960 --> 17:48.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you can listen or you cannot listen.
[17:48.760 --> 17:49.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's up to you, really.
[17:50.260 --> 17:55.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now that's a whole lot more difficult because of these restrictions.
[17:56.040 --> 17:57.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, continuing, finishing up the article here.
[17:58.180 --> 18:00.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Outside the courtroom, common sense...
[18:00.620 --> 18:05.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Common sense helps us discern great literature from gratuitous sex.
[18:07.620 --> 18:12.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Indecency restrictions do not regulate the message, but the manner in which it is conveyed.
[18:13.640 --> 18:14.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone is happy.
[18:15.180 --> 18:16.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone is blissful.
[18:17.160 --> 18:18.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's no need to fear.
[18:18.820 --> 18:19.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: We are your friends.
[18:20.820 --> 18:22.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess I'm reading more into that than I should.
[18:23.380 --> 18:31.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: As the Supreme Court aptly recognized, few, if any, thoughts exist that cannot be expressed in a less graphic manner.
[18:31.900 --> 18:35.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I don't know about you, but that phrase scares me, you know?
[18:35.960 --> 18:40.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can say what you want to say, but just say it in a less harsh manner.
[18:40.300 --> 18:44.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, say it in something that won't get people upset, that won't offend anybody.
[18:44.340 --> 18:50.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you can still make your point, but you can't make it so that you upset people.
[18:50.720 --> 18:51.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: How do you feel about that?
[18:51.920 --> 18:52.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can we live like that?
[18:53.480 --> 18:55.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking very happy thoughts right now.
[18:55.580 --> 18:56.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are you thinking happy thoughts?
[18:56.380 --> 18:56.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm glad.
[18:56.820 --> 18:59.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm glad the happiness is spread all the way over to the other side of the room there.
[19:02.040 --> 19:07.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: The objection to the new cyberporn law has less to do with freedom than with arrogance and greed.
[19:08.420 --> 19:10.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Most Americans do not have access to the Internet.
[19:11.220 --> 19:14.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: The online elite would like to keep it that way.
[19:15.940 --> 19:17.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's us, I guess, the online elite.
[19:17.600 --> 19:18.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Who is this online elite?
[19:18.360 --> 19:18.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[19:19.020 --> 19:20.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess we're so elite we can't even see them.
[19:22.040 --> 19:23.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: When you're elite, you can't see the elite, right?
[19:24.040 --> 19:26.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because you're too elite to be able to discern that.
[19:26.720 --> 19:37.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, they know that when the information superhighway is truly open to all, they will have to live by the rules of a diverse community, respecting all its members, including children.
[19:39.180 --> 19:47.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, it would be nice if these same little stabs at logic were applied to the people saying these things.
[19:47.980 --> 19:52.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Why can't they live in relative peace and respect the rights of other people?
[19:52.120 --> 19:55.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Why must they try to control the way other people think and express themselves?
[19:56.560 --> 20:01.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm going to see things on the net that disturb me, that I don't agree with.
[20:01.260 --> 20:02.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you know what?
[20:02.100 --> 20:06.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about it or reading it or going crazy over it.
[20:07.220 --> 20:08.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: These people will do the opposite.
[20:08.900 --> 20:13.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: They see something they don't like, and they will do everything possible to knock it down, to control it, to serve it into something.
[20:13.940 --> 20:14.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Really simple reason.
[20:14.980 --> 20:15.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[20:15.460 --> 20:17.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: They just don't have time for their kids.
[20:17.300 --> 20:18.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess not.
[20:18.560 --> 20:25.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're too busy out there lobbying politicians to make the world more like what they want it to be.
[20:25.880 --> 20:26.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[20:26.860 --> 20:29.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a dark days ahead of us.
[20:31.420 --> 20:32.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting week.
[20:32.540 --> 20:35.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Did you hear about Shittomo Shimomura's website?
[20:36.080 --> 20:37.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, takendown.com.
[20:37.660 --> 20:40.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, takendown.com turned into takendown.com.
[20:40.380 --> 20:41.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: This was in the Wall Street Journal.
[20:42.440 --> 20:46.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it happened because, well, I mean, what did somebody do?
[20:46.460 --> 20:49.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Did they just simply mailed something with a fake address?
[20:49.480 --> 20:50.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is that all it took?
[20:50.920 --> 20:53.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they sent a request to InterNIC.
[20:53.760 --> 20:58.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the InterNIC doesn't really necessarily double-check where all the requests come from.
[20:58.440 --> 21:01.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: They get thousands of requests a day to do things.
[21:01.760 --> 21:05.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: So they simply processed it and changed it to taken down.
[21:05.620 --> 21:08.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, now, is it true the rumor is it's just computers that do these things?
[21:08.560 --> 21:09.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's no human involved?
[21:09.660 --> 21:15.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: In most cases, if you actually fill out the form and there's no errors in the form being processed, it's done automatically.
[21:15.320 --> 21:16.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: So this could happen again?
[21:16.900 --> 21:17.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[21:17.640 --> 21:26.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: All somebody has to do is fill out a form and put the right information there as far as who's making their request, and it'll just go through?
[21:27.160 --> 21:35.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they claim that they're taking steps to prevent that, that they want to set up a whole key exchange kind of thing to actually authenticate a request.
[21:36.080 --> 21:39.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean, we're paying now, what, $100 a year, $50 a year for...
[21:39.400 --> 21:41.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: $50 a year or $100 the first time.
[21:41.240 --> 21:41.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[21:41.780 --> 21:44.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: For Internet domains and changes and things like that.
[21:44.340 --> 21:49.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, I think, you know, being able to prevent somebody from doing that would be part of that fee.
[21:49.660 --> 21:50.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: That would be a nice idea.
[21:50.860 --> 21:52.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, what are we paying for the computer?
[21:52.460 --> 21:56.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is, you know, a single computer program doing all this?
[21:56.180 --> 21:59.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but you can't help get angry at the people that have just screwed it up for everybody.
[21:59.880 --> 22:00.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[22:00.160 --> 22:01.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: It existed like that for years.
[22:02.140 --> 22:07.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Never had to worry about somebody, like, changing what your domain name was just to be obnoxious.
[22:07.660 --> 22:08.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[22:08.260 --> 22:09.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Things like that just never happened.
[22:09.920 --> 22:13.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: With tens of thousands of names, things like that never happened?
[22:13.200 --> 22:14.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Never happened before, no.
[22:14.640 --> 22:17.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, certainly not to the extent that you'd hear about it in the Wall Street Journal.
[22:18.480 --> 22:21.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't anything that people really cared to do.
[22:22.040 --> 22:22.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[22:23.020 --> 22:26.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: But then, there weren't very many sites with names like takedown.com.
[22:26.580 --> 22:27.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, that's true.
[22:27.400 --> 22:30.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: In people's faces saying, come on and get me.
[22:30.600 --> 22:30.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[22:31.640 --> 22:33.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, so that's, I think it's fixed, finally.
[22:34.000 --> 22:35.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: It took a number of days for it to get fixed.
[22:35.840 --> 22:37.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: I guess for the time being, it's fixed.
[22:37.640 --> 22:37.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[22:37.960 --> 22:42.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: But one thing that they do know for certain is that Kevin Mitnick did not do it.
[22:42.700 --> 22:43.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this time he's off the hook.
[22:44.120 --> 22:45.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: This time it sure looks that way.
[22:47.540 --> 22:53.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, speaking of horrible criminals behind bars, I've talked to Bernie S.
[22:53.800 --> 22:54.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: a couple of times this week.
[22:54.640 --> 22:56.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: He might be getting a hold of us later on.
[22:56.220 --> 22:58.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, you know, remember the problems we were having last week?
[22:58.580 --> 23:00.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, he wasn't even trying to get a hold of us last week.
[23:00.400 --> 23:00.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, really?
[23:00.780 --> 23:08.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because he had some kind of prison appointment that sort of kept him away from the phones.
[23:08.460 --> 23:08.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's all right.
[23:08.820 --> 23:09.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: That guy was still a schmuck.
[23:09.880 --> 23:12.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he was still a schmuck, even thinking that he could stop Bernie S.
[23:12.420 --> 23:12.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[23:13.020 --> 23:17.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: But we fixed the problem anyway, so even if he did do the same thing again, it's not going to have any effect on us.
[23:17.400 --> 23:20.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: But it's possible that Bernie might be tied up this week anyway.
[23:21.620 --> 23:29.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to try to visit him on Sunday, and we'll be able to bring you, I guess, the grim tidings at that point as to what exactly it's like.
[23:29.400 --> 23:32.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, there's a lot of really bad things going on.
[23:32.440 --> 23:35.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, when you're in prison, of course, it's really awful.
[23:36.840 --> 23:45.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: But when you hear from him, it's just, you hear the people screaming in the background, and you realize he's in this crazy place we could not even imagine.
[23:46.160 --> 23:52.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think back to, you know, the high school cafeteria, and that's about the closest I can get to the sounds that are emanating from this place.
[23:52.760 --> 23:59.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, it's nothing like that, but it's really an inappropriate place for someone like him to be.
[24:00.420 --> 24:05.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: News of this is getting around slowly, but, you know, I've got to tell you, I am very perplexed.
[24:05.760 --> 24:10.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: I am very disappointed in the response by people who could do something about this.
[24:10.460 --> 24:15.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: People like writers, people like civil liberties groups, people that should see.
[24:15.300 --> 24:20.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, everyone's crying about the Communications Decency Act, but, you know, you've seen the signs.
[24:20.220 --> 24:23.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: You've heard the rumblings of this now for at least a year.
[24:24.280 --> 24:26.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: That was the time to speak out against it.
[24:26.500 --> 24:28.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: That was the time to do something about this.
[24:28.780 --> 24:34.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Where are these people when there's an individual who is affected by something that is clearly wrong?
[24:34.780 --> 24:35.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: Clearly wrong.
[24:35.840 --> 24:44.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, someone who is not even accused of making a free phone call, but simply of having the elements necessary to build a device which could make a free phone call.
[24:44.860 --> 24:50.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, are there people out there that really think that it's right to put somebody away in prison for years with murderers and rapists?
[24:50.720 --> 24:53.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean with them, like in the same cells with them?
[24:53.740 --> 24:54.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[24:54.720 --> 24:55.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't know.
[24:55.960 --> 24:58.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I'm on the wrong planet or something, if that's true.
[24:58.300 --> 24:59.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: How can people think that way?
[24:59.740 --> 25:03.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Fiber, you went through this, I think to a lesser degree.
[25:03.660 --> 25:04.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you went through hell too, but...
[25:04.960 --> 25:08.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it wasn't around any rapists or murderers, at least not that they admitted.
[25:08.640 --> 25:13.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: But you must have come in contact with the kind of thought that said, yeah, it's okay to do this.
[25:13.160 --> 25:16.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's okay to send people like you to prison to teach you a lesson.
[25:16.220 --> 25:17.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: What goes through their minds?
[25:17.740 --> 25:18.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: I can't figure it out.
[25:18.940 --> 25:19.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying.
[25:19.540 --> 25:19.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: I really am.
[25:19.980 --> 25:22.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to reach these people and see how they are thinking.
[25:23.040 --> 25:25.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I've got some of their thoughts here on paper, which I'm going to read.
[25:25.680 --> 25:27.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, I mean, what's your interpretation?
[25:28.500 --> 25:29.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I read that.
[25:30.860 --> 25:31.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: The thing I'm about to read.
[25:31.980 --> 25:32.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[25:32.780 --> 25:33.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know...
[25:33.960 --> 25:35.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't say where it came from.
[25:35.580 --> 25:36.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't know where it came from, to be honest.
[25:36.760 --> 25:36.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[25:37.240 --> 25:42.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it sounds to me just like a bunch of 14-year-olds that have no idea what they're talking about, bickering with each other.
[25:42.740 --> 25:45.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, you know, but I've read things on the well, too.
[25:45.500 --> 25:47.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a bunch of lawyers, and they sound the same way.
[25:48.180 --> 25:48.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[25:48.680 --> 25:52.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, not to put people down or anything like that, but that's sort of the beauty of the net.
[25:52.360 --> 25:54.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: You don't know who it is that's really talking.
[25:54.520 --> 25:55.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: It could be a 14-year-old.
[25:55.740 --> 25:56.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: It could be...
[25:56.240 --> 25:56.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[25:56.300 --> 25:58.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of times, 14-year-olds make a lot more sense.
[25:58.200 --> 26:00.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: I stopped trying to figure these people out a long time ago.
[26:00.780 --> 26:01.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: I just summed it up.
[26:01.820 --> 26:03.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: But who are these people?
[26:03.040 --> 26:03.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm trying to get at.
[26:04.060 --> 26:04.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: People that are stupid.
[26:05.220 --> 26:05.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[26:05.420 --> 26:07.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's smart people, and there's stupid people.
[26:07.840 --> 26:12.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, there's the 99% of the population that have no opinion whatsoever.
[26:12.960 --> 26:13.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
[26:13.820 --> 26:17.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: But there's just a lot of dumb people out there.
[26:17.520 --> 26:17.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[26:17.780 --> 26:18.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: But what do you do?
[26:18.480 --> 26:20.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, do you try to reach these, quote-unquote, dumb people?
[26:20.900 --> 26:23.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I stopped trying to reach dumb people a long time ago.
[26:23.120 --> 26:23.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: But...
[26:23.400 --> 26:24.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: So all it does is aggravate you.
[26:24.680 --> 26:32.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: But the thing is, if you don't reach the dumb people, and, you know, I'm not saying this in a patronizing way, you know, that's just our label right now at this moment.
[26:32.900 --> 26:34.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, they could be...
[26:34.160 --> 26:35.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think they're dumb, to be honest.
[26:35.600 --> 26:39.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: I really think that they're misled, or maybe they don't care for some reason.
[26:39.720 --> 26:41.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: How about naively stupid?
[26:41.040 --> 26:42.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's how I've been described.
[26:42.700 --> 26:43.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's how you've been described.
[26:43.860 --> 26:44.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Naively stupid?
[26:44.940 --> 26:45.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Naively stupid, yeah.
[26:45.760 --> 26:47.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, that's the exact phrase I've heard a lot.
[26:47.540 --> 26:53.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: When we say things like, people like Bernie asked, people like yourself should not be in prison for your interests, for things that you do.
[26:53.800 --> 27:06.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're naively stupid because we don't pay attention to the law, because we think that by speaking out openly that people will take an interest and will rally around us and things like that.
[27:06.020 --> 27:08.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I've heard naively stupid a lot over the years.
[27:08.840 --> 27:10.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I have a feeling I'm going to be hearing it a bit more.
[27:11.040 --> 27:13.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me read you some of these comments just to give you an idea of what we're talking about.
[27:14.700 --> 27:27.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: All the information, and you can get all this information, too, by either emailing or fingering BernieS at 2600.com, or visiting our website, which is going to be expanding greatly in the days ahead with all kinds of other information.
[27:29.520 --> 27:33.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, these are some replies to the information, much of which we've talked about over the weeks.
[27:34.920 --> 27:37.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: This guy, known as Twinkie...
[27:38.380 --> 27:40.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what board this came from, actually.
[27:40.080 --> 27:40.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is just forwarded to me.
[27:41.080 --> 27:43.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: It looks pretty obvious that he was a freaker.
[27:43.160 --> 27:44.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: He deserved what he got.
[27:44.440 --> 27:44.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Know why?
[27:45.100 --> 27:46.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because he got caught.
[27:46.760 --> 27:50.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, and the 2600.com address doesn't exactly make him look clean, either.
[27:51.780 --> 27:52.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Guilt by association.
[27:53.180 --> 27:56.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Put 2600.com at the end of your name, and right away, you're guilty of something.
[27:56.400 --> 27:58.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, okay, now this guy says he was a freaker.
[27:58.620 --> 28:00.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: He deserved what he got because he got caught.
[28:01.140 --> 28:03.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: I can follow the logic a little bit, you know?
[28:04.000 --> 28:06.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: He got caught, and therefore he deserves to pay the price.
[28:06.820 --> 28:08.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: But what did he get caught doing?
[28:08.860 --> 28:11.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the thing no one can seem to answer.
[28:11.540 --> 28:12.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[28:12.160 --> 28:15.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: I just think you're trying to, like, overanalyze stupidity.
[28:15.800 --> 28:22.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is somebody trying to justify the fact that they think he deserved what he got because he got caught, not for any other reason?
[28:22.580 --> 28:23.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: He was a freaker.
[28:23.660 --> 28:25.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: He got caught, so he deserved it.
[28:25.040 --> 28:28.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't understand the path of logic.
[28:28.520 --> 28:33.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I guess this guy is a freaker who didn't get caught, so he feels that he deserves to be free.
[28:33.920 --> 28:34.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: I see.
[28:34.620 --> 28:35.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[28:35.140 --> 28:37.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you're stupid enough to get caught, you have to pay the price.
[28:37.120 --> 28:38.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've heard that a lot of times.
[28:38.360 --> 28:38.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[28:38.960 --> 28:42.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I don't necessarily agree with that logic in any sense.
[28:42.300 --> 28:45.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: But what is it that he thinks he got caught doing?
[28:45.320 --> 28:47.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I'm trying to, like...
[28:47.460 --> 28:51.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm asking people, what is it that he did that made him deserve to wind up in prison?
[28:51.980 --> 28:56.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't think this Twinkie person has any idea whatsoever what Bernie did.
[28:56.240 --> 28:57.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so, either.
[28:57.200 --> 28:57.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so.
[28:58.800 --> 29:01.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: We can't make fun of their names, by the way, as much as we'd like to.
[29:01.640 --> 29:02.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Twinkie person.
[29:02.300 --> 29:02.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I know.
[29:02.780 --> 29:03.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Twinkie person.
[29:03.220 --> 29:03.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: But say that seriously.
[29:04.060 --> 29:05.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Don't say that as if you're making fun of his name.
[29:05.700 --> 29:06.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Twinkie is a nice name.
[29:06.440 --> 29:07.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not making fun of it.
[29:07.520 --> 29:09.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just saying it with a...
[29:09.300 --> 29:10.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: His name is Twinkie.
[29:10.200 --> 29:10.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean...
[29:10.720 --> 29:11.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Twinkie.
[29:11.160 --> 29:11.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's his name.
[29:11.900 --> 29:12.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[29:13.640 --> 29:14.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[29:14.560 --> 29:20.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, this guy known as Raven says, Wow, that was a great parody of 1984.
[29:20.780 --> 29:21.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Orwell would be proud.
[29:22.300 --> 29:23.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wait, this isn't a joke?
[29:24.000 --> 29:27.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's that word that's not permitted by the CDA that follows that.
[29:28.040 --> 29:29.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Twinkie is right.
[29:29.320 --> 29:30.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank God they caught this evil bastard.
[29:30.900 --> 29:35.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: And to think, some of that court time and those officers' appearances could have been wasted catching rapists and murderers.
[29:37.000 --> 29:38.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I think he sort of nailed it.
[29:38.840 --> 29:39.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I don't think it was wasted.
[29:39.620 --> 29:40.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're in there with Bernie.
[29:40.840 --> 29:41.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
[29:43.060 --> 29:47.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Then Twinkie responds with, You'll change your response if you get a $3,000 cellular bill.
[29:49.020 --> 29:49.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[29:50.160 --> 29:50.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[29:50.960 --> 29:52.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: What does that have to do with anything?
[29:53.420 --> 29:55.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you know, those freakers are all the same.
[29:55.480 --> 29:55.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[29:56.340 --> 29:56.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[29:57.140 --> 29:57.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[29:57.840 --> 30:01.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: You have a telling collect call from a county jail.
[30:01.700 --> 30:03.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: The call is from...
[30:03.940 --> 30:04.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bernie S.
[30:07.960 --> 30:13.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: To accept this collect call with a push-button phone, please press 2 now.
[30:14.680 --> 30:16.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you for using Tell Link.
[30:17.400 --> 30:19.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, Bernie, how are you doing?
[30:19.280 --> 30:19.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello.
[30:19.360 --> 30:22.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess you heard some of what we were reading and you just had to call in to respond to this.
[30:23.020 --> 30:24.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, no, they just let me out of my cage.
[30:25.000 --> 30:31.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: They were counting us all tonight, so I just was released from my cage a couple of minutes ago, but I felt the need to call.
[30:31.660 --> 30:32.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: What were you discussing?
[30:32.400 --> 30:40.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're reading some, I guess, priceless bits off a bulletin board where your case has been discussed, and some people, I don't know, they just...
[30:40.760 --> 30:43.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to figure out the way their minds work, you know?
[30:44.100 --> 30:44.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: Whose?
[30:44.860 --> 30:55.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, some of the bulletin board users, one of whom said that you're a freaker and you deserve what you got because you got caught.
[30:55.320 --> 30:57.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we're trying to figure out what he's thinking you did.
[30:58.080 --> 31:05.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I can say that I was not charged with committing any fraud or making any free phone calls.
[31:05.540 --> 31:14.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was merely charged with possession of computer programs, computer software, and possession of tone dialers that had been...
[31:15.480 --> 31:21.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: One tone dialer had been altered with a 6.5 megahertz crystal, both of which are available at Radio Shack.
[31:21.260 --> 31:23.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, that's what I'm accused of.
[31:24.500 --> 31:25.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what I was charged with.
[31:25.720 --> 31:30.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if there was any more serious activity involved, I'm sure I would have been charged with it, but I wasn't.
[31:31.920 --> 31:32.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, that's it.
[31:32.900 --> 31:42.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: And apparently the government thinks that's a heinous act now because now it's a federal felony punishable by up to 15 years imprisonment and a $250,000 fine.
[31:44.580 --> 31:45.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Pretty unbelievable.
[31:45.980 --> 31:51.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to read one other small bit here, and then we're going to let you talk and tell us what's been going on over the past couple of weeks.
[31:51.620 --> 31:54.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is from someone with the initials JFK.
[31:56.480 --> 31:57.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully no connection there.
[31:58.440 --> 32:03.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: People who are affronted by this case are a big part of what is wrong with our criminal justice system.
[32:03.440 --> 32:05.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's obvious what this guy was up to.
[32:05.480 --> 32:08.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure that there was plenty of evidence to convict him, or he wouldn't have made a deal.
[32:09.080 --> 32:11.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you break the law and get caught, you should pay the penalty.
[32:11.960 --> 32:14.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: We shouldn't have to spend years prosecuting these guys.
[32:14.880 --> 32:15.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, Bernie, what do you think of that?
[32:15.920 --> 32:25.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, what I was charged with was not even a crime, according to federal law, up until only a few weeks before I was charged with it.
[32:25.220 --> 32:38.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: As a matter of coincidence, I happened to be the first person in the country charged with this new law, making it a felony even just to possess software that could be used to modify telecommunications instruments.
[32:40.900 --> 32:42.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I didn't even know the law existed.
[32:42.960 --> 32:49.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, it hadn't even been printed in the law books until after I was arrested because they don't update the books until every six months.
[32:50.000 --> 32:51.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't know.
[32:51.840 --> 32:54.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I don't know what it's obvious to this person I was up to.
[32:54.920 --> 33:02.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: What I was up to was giving information to other people about how to experiment with the telecommunications technology.
[33:03.940 --> 33:08.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was not committing any fraud, and that's how I see it.
[33:08.360 --> 33:14.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: If somebody thinks it's obvious I'm up to something, why don't they say what it is instead of making some generality?
[33:14.760 --> 33:23.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think there's a bit of cynicism in the average person who believes that if you're in jail, you must have done something to get there.
[33:23.180 --> 33:28.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's what the Secret Service is preying upon, is how people view prisoners.
[33:28.640 --> 33:29.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, sure.
[33:29.420 --> 33:43.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: When you go before a judge and you're in shackles, your legs are shackled together and you're in handcuffs and you're in a prison, a green prison outfit, you look like a criminal, you know?
[33:43.540 --> 33:47.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I can see how that would be misinterpreted.
[33:47.760 --> 33:52.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, the government said a lot of other things that they thought I was...
[33:52.000 --> 33:55.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: the Secret Service said I was dangerous, although they weren't...
[33:55.300 --> 33:59.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: You were at the hearing, I believe, and the Secret Service agent was...
[33:59.440 --> 34:09.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: despite a pretty thorough cross-examination by my attorney, was not able to come up with any factual basis at all about why he thinks I'm dangerous.
[34:09.860 --> 34:11.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: He just kept saying he's dangerous.
[34:11.560 --> 34:14.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: But he couldn't say how or why he thought I was dangerous.
[34:14.740 --> 34:16.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm still wondering myself.
[34:17.320 --> 34:19.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know that I'm not dangerous.
[34:19.220 --> 34:20.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm a pacifist.
[34:21.040 --> 34:22.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've never hurt another person in my life.
[34:22.600 --> 34:25.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm not capable of committing violence.
[34:25.440 --> 34:27.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: But apparently the government thinks otherwise.
[34:27.640 --> 34:30.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think they were really concerned about all the information I had.
[34:30.840 --> 34:37.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm an information collector and collected a lot of information from public and private sources.
[34:37.060 --> 34:37.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: None of it illegal.
[34:38.260 --> 34:40.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, a lot of this is First Amendment material.
[34:40.760 --> 34:50.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you had books, you had magazines, you had information, and they're basically convicting you based on you using all that information to commit the most heinous crimes.
[34:50.400 --> 34:54.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: But in actuality, your only crime is having books, having magazines.
[34:54.600 --> 35:03.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, when you put all the information I had together and look at certain things out of context, one could put together a circumstantial case that this guy must have been up to something.
[35:03.480 --> 35:25.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: If he has books that describe Secret Service activities, if he has photographs of some Secret Service agents, which had previously appeared on television, if he has a library of over a thousand books, maybe five or six of which describe how explosives are made.
[35:26.720 --> 35:33.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then again, I've never built anything that's explosive, but I like to read all kinds of strange subjects as people like to read murder mysteries without being murderers.
[35:34.440 --> 35:42.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: I thought it was okay to have any information and collect it just to feed my curiosity, but apparently the government is very much afraid of that now.
[35:42.340 --> 35:46.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I learned my lesson that knowledge is a liability.
[35:47.620 --> 35:50.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now that's the part I like to ask these people.
[35:51.080 --> 35:54.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you not see how this could affect each and every one of us?
[35:55.140 --> 36:03.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you have the wrong books, if you have material that somebody thinks could be dangerous, is it right to put somebody in prison based solely upon that?
[36:03.980 --> 36:18.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: And everything that we're talking about here, everything that you've been put in prison for is based on taking something that you have and expanding it to encompass something that it could be used for, but not something that it was being used for while in your possession.
[36:18.400 --> 36:18.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[36:18.740 --> 36:29.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was not even alleged by the Secret Service to have done anything illegal with any of the books or information or software or hardware that I had in my possession.
[36:30.520 --> 36:44.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: They interviewed about 20 people across the country who've known me for years and were not able to get anyone to say I was capable of doing anything dangerous or that I was violent in any way.
[36:44.820 --> 36:53.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yet they continue to imply that I might be a threat to either the Secret Service or to the President, who I supported and voted for.
[36:53.560 --> 36:55.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's ludicrous.
[36:55.380 --> 36:58.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: But in any case, they're getting their licks in.
[36:58.860 --> 37:05.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: They went actually as far as to contact people around the country who knew you to ask about your political affiliations and things like that.
[37:05.600 --> 37:05.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yes.
[37:06.240 --> 37:07.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently that's a criteria now.
[37:08.100 --> 37:11.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you don't have the right to political beliefs, then watch out.
[37:11.740 --> 37:13.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, that's the only thing I can guess.
[37:13.800 --> 37:19.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm not a radical of any sort, but I like to be informed.
[37:19.620 --> 37:20.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's why I collect information.
[37:20.880 --> 37:23.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I vote regularly.
[37:23.620 --> 37:32.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: And although I will not be permitted to vote anymore now that I'm convicted, because now a federal crime for me to vote.
[37:32.560 --> 37:35.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't know if that makes any sense either.
[37:35.900 --> 37:36.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: But what do you think?
[37:37.560 --> 37:39.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: None of this makes any sense to me.
[37:39.560 --> 37:40.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: None of this makes any sense at all.
[37:40.980 --> 37:42.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: What are the laws?
[37:42.620 --> 37:46.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: I could ask Fiber this, too, as far as voting after you've been convicted of something like this.
[37:46.780 --> 37:47.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: I honestly don't know.
[37:48.640 --> 37:53.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is just something I was told that that's one of the restrictions that I will have.
[37:54.300 --> 37:55.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't know.
[37:55.120 --> 37:56.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what the penalty would be if I voted.
[37:57.320 --> 37:59.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can't vote myself either.
[37:59.660 --> 38:02.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it's for the duration of my probation or what.
[38:03.840 --> 38:07.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: But that's something that eventually goes away, and you can vote again.
[38:08.280 --> 38:13.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: But as far as other things, like the constitutional right to bear arms, you would have to actually...
[38:13.160 --> 38:20.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we would have to actually appear before a judge, a federal judge, and show that we deserve the right to possess a firearm.
[38:21.540 --> 38:29.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, that's kind of an interesting point, because you being in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania has a law saying it's okay to carry concealed firearms, right?
[38:30.460 --> 38:31.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: You have to have a permit.
[38:31.820 --> 38:34.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah, you have a permit, but you can carry a concealed firearm.
[38:35.000 --> 38:40.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: And yet, you can do that, but you can't carry the parts that are necessary to build a box that beeps.
[38:41.720 --> 38:44.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you can buy these parts through any Radio Shack store.
[38:44.420 --> 38:46.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's over 5,000 Radio Shacks across the country.
[38:48.040 --> 38:49.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, I don't know.
[38:49.280 --> 38:51.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but here I am.
[38:52.100 --> 38:53.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, now, let me ask something else.
[38:53.100 --> 38:55.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: You brought up violence and safety and things like that.
[38:55.320 --> 38:57.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: How is it for you there?
[38:57.300 --> 39:01.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are you safe there in the condition that you're in?
[39:01.140 --> 39:02.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are you in any danger whatsoever?
[39:02.840 --> 39:03.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think so.
[39:04.460 --> 39:17.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because my bail was initially set on January 12th at a quarter of a million dollars, and not having that kind of money in my pocket, or ever in my life, or ever will, probably.
[39:18.700 --> 39:25.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was relegated to the high-security cell block here in this prison in eastern Pennsylvania.
[39:26.540 --> 39:34.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's for the 24 most dangerous, violent inmates or those who have the highest bail.
[39:34.200 --> 39:45.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And since my bail was a quarter of a million dollars, higher than it is for some people who shoot people, I was put in that area.
[39:45.980 --> 39:49.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm the only Caucasian on this cell block.
[39:49.700 --> 39:51.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I don't really feel I'm in danger.
[39:51.740 --> 40:02.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: The first few days I was here, there was some tension, because there was a belief or a rumor that had gotten around the prison that I was an undercover cop.
[40:02.480 --> 40:03.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, great.
[40:03.520 --> 40:05.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's just peachy.
[40:05.500 --> 40:07.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because I don't look like a criminal.
[40:08.020 --> 40:11.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Whatever a criminal is supposed to look like, I don't look like that, apparently, according to some of the guards.
[40:11.880 --> 40:19.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: So the inmates didn't think I was a criminal either, and therefore, what was I doing there other than to collect information about them?
[40:19.760 --> 40:27.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, Bernie, hopefully you have newspaper clippings you can point to and say, look, I'm a criminal, $250,000 bail, you know, the whole works.
[40:28.180 --> 40:31.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: At least, let the people that need to believe that believe that.
[40:31.640 --> 40:33.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think I did a good job of convincing people here.
[40:33.820 --> 40:39.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've sort of earned my stripe, so to speak, helping people out with their cases from a legal standpoint.
[40:39.040 --> 40:47.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've become somewhat of a paralegal over the past year, having to deal with all this federal and state law nonsense.
[40:47.100 --> 40:57.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I've just helped a lot of these inmates out who are functionally illiterate and don't even, really can't, unfortunately, can't even read their legal papers.
[40:58.120 --> 41:03.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm trying to pass the time by helping people with their cases as much as I can.
[41:03.240 --> 41:05.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's pretty rewarding, because these people are desperate.
[41:05.900 --> 41:11.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Bernie, while we still have the chance, can you give out your address so people can mail you things and tell us what we can mail you to make your life a little more sane?
[41:12.140 --> 41:18.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, actually, it would be really helpful for me emotionally and mentally just to have something to read.
[41:19.820 --> 41:29.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anybody can mail me a letter, words of encouragement, newspaper, magazine articles, jokes, just anything to keep my mind occupied would be helpful.
[41:29.920 --> 41:43.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can send it to me, Ed Cummings, C-U-M-M-I-N-G-S, Northampton County Prison, 666 Walnut Street.
[41:44.800 --> 41:45.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's a great address.
[41:45.800 --> 41:47.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, 666, very appropriate.
[41:48.080 --> 41:52.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Walnut Street, D as in dog, D22, that's my cell number.
[41:53.240 --> 41:56.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's in Easton, E-A-S-T-O-N-P-A.
[41:57.460 --> 41:59.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: The zip code is 18042.
[42:00.440 --> 42:05.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: And apparently, books and magazines are not permitted to be sent in.
[42:06.400 --> 42:12.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Some people tried to send me some general interest to books and magazines, and they were refused.
[42:12.300 --> 42:18.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, anybody who wants to send that can try, but they may get it sent back to them.
[42:19.100 --> 42:21.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently, reading is considered a dangerous activity here.
[42:21.400 --> 42:27.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: But anything anybody wants to write me, or words of encouragement, or jokes, or anything with my spirit would be very helpful.
[42:27.980 --> 42:30.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: I heard a copy of Discover magazine was deemed inappropriate for you.
[42:30.840 --> 42:35.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, a relative from Iowa mailed me a copy of Discover magazine, and that was rejected.
[42:36.260 --> 42:42.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently, that's not considered by the prison to be suitable reading material for their inmates.
[42:42.740 --> 42:43.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Guess not.
[42:44.380 --> 42:48.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are inmates here who have a pornographic magazine, so apparently that's all right.
[42:48.860 --> 42:50.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Although, that's not my reading there.
[42:50.720 --> 42:53.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: For some reason, Discover magazine is not allowed in.
[42:53.380 --> 42:59.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if you can find one of those pornographic magazines that has a science section in the middle of it, perhaps that could be a solution.
[42:59.660 --> 43:01.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe I could get away with reading.
[43:01.340 --> 43:06.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: If I could somehow smuggle a Discover magazine in here, and, like, hide it inside a Hustler magazine.
[43:07.140 --> 43:07.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, now he's saying...
[43:07.860 --> 43:10.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then it would be okay, apparently.
[43:10.340 --> 43:13.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is conspiracy, and it's crossing state lines, so I'm going to have to just stop that right here.
[43:14.040 --> 43:14.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
[43:15.800 --> 43:16.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Anything else?
[43:16.820 --> 43:19.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Your hearing is scheduled for, I believe, two weeks from today.
[43:19.460 --> 43:20.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's scheduled for March 5th.
[43:21.040 --> 43:21.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[43:22.200 --> 43:26.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: And at that point, this county judge will decide what to...
[43:26.920 --> 43:28.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: how long he will sentence me for.
[43:28.700 --> 43:30.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: The state guidelines...
[43:30.200 --> 43:41.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: My case started out as a federal case, but because I was on probation for a misdemeanor from something that occurred back in 1993, my probation was revoked after I served my seven months in federal prison.
[43:42.020 --> 43:51.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm back here on that probation violation, and the state guidelines indicate a zero- to three-month sentence is what the state recommends for my situation.
[43:52.340 --> 44:02.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, the probation officer, because he's being pressured by the Secret Service, has told me he's going to recommend the absolute maximum, which is a 12- to 24-month sentence.
[44:03.120 --> 44:05.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm not optimistic, because there's been a lot of publicity.
[44:05.760 --> 44:09.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: There was front-page newspaper articles about my case here in this area.
[44:09.700 --> 44:13.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently, the Secret Service doesn't get up here very often, and it's considered a big event.
[44:14.100 --> 44:17.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: So people think I must be up to something if the Secret Service is coming up here.
[44:19.140 --> 44:20.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm not optimistic.
[44:20.360 --> 44:22.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I expect, really, to get to 12- to 24 months.
[44:22.580 --> 44:26.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: If I get anything less than that, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
[44:26.460 --> 44:29.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm planning on being here for the duration.
[44:30.440 --> 44:33.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I really don't understand how you're able to keep such spirits.
[44:33.900 --> 44:36.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think I'd be able to survive nearly as well as you have.
[44:37.740 --> 44:38.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you don't have a choice.
[44:38.740 --> 44:41.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Some days I just wish my life was over.
[44:41.940 --> 44:45.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: But other days, it's helpful when I'm talking to friends on the phone.
[44:45.080 --> 44:47.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's our 30-second warning.
[44:47.880 --> 44:48.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to get cut off.
[44:48.720 --> 44:50.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: But some days are extremely depressing.
[44:50.520 --> 44:53.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Other days, I just get by.
[44:53.800 --> 44:59.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, again, any written communication I get from people would be helpful in keeping me from getting too depressed.
[44:59.460 --> 45:00.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody in the room wants to say hi.
[45:00.900 --> 45:01.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: So everybody say hi together.
[45:02.800 --> 45:03.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, Bernie.
[45:03.560 --> 45:04.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, Bernie.
[45:04.640 --> 45:05.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, that sounds great.
[45:05.740 --> 45:06.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, this is DT.
[45:06.680 --> 45:08.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: We have about 100 people here.
[45:09.480 --> 45:09.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[45:10.720 --> 45:12.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: And thanks to everyone who wrote me in federal prison.
[45:12.860 --> 45:13.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you very much.
[45:13.540 --> 45:15.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was a big help.
[45:15.760 --> 45:16.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was really...
[45:17.240 --> 45:19.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, well, that's that.
[45:20.140 --> 45:20.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Bernie S.
[45:21.020 --> 45:22.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: talking to us live from prison.
[45:23.640 --> 45:28.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, we do this each week and hope that it's the last week we have to do it.
[45:29.020 --> 45:29.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: But just...
[45:29.780 --> 45:31.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: The nightmare just keeps continuing.
[45:31.760 --> 45:33.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we're not going to forget about him.
[45:33.260 --> 45:34.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just wish...
[45:34.860 --> 45:41.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: One of the things I wanted to ask him, I didn't get a chance to this time, is, you know, where are all the groups that claim to stand up for human rights?
[45:41.780 --> 45:43.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, are they saying that...
[45:43.560 --> 45:44.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is justified?
[45:44.680 --> 45:45.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is right?
[45:45.480 --> 45:46.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is where he belongs?
[45:47.460 --> 45:49.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I want to hear from these groups.
[45:49.560 --> 45:51.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: I want to know why they aren't doing anything about it.
[45:51.840 --> 45:53.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are they just totally understaffed?
[45:53.920 --> 45:54.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they can't...
[45:54.780 --> 45:56.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, they just don't have the time?
[45:56.720 --> 45:57.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: It seems to me...
[45:57.540 --> 45:59.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I can't think of a case that's more important right now.
[45:59.600 --> 46:01.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: That doesn't affect everybody.
[46:02.740 --> 46:03.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, uh...
[46:03.460 --> 46:04.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[46:04.300 --> 46:09.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Until more people stand up and start saying things, it's going to appear like we're the only ones who care.
[46:09.900 --> 46:10.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I know that's not true.
[46:10.960 --> 46:14.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I know it by the number of people that contact us and want to know what's going on.
[46:15.320 --> 46:24.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you're on the net, you want to keep in touch with situations as they occur, or you can finger BernieS at 2600.com.
[46:24.420 --> 46:25.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think he might be back.
[46:26.660 --> 46:27.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello?
[46:27.560 --> 46:27.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[46:28.160 --> 46:29.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, we're going to try and take some calls with him.
[46:29.800 --> 46:31.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: You have a tell link collect call from a county jail.
[46:33.480 --> 46:34.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, did you hear that?
[46:35.180 --> 46:36.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: What a strange noise.
[46:38.260 --> 46:40.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you for using tell link.
[46:41.020 --> 46:42.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, I jumped the gun there.
[46:42.500 --> 46:43.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: I hope that's okay.
[46:43.220 --> 46:43.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, it worked.
[46:44.100 --> 46:44.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Did you hear that weird...
[46:44.960 --> 46:45.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry I cut you off.
[46:45.600 --> 46:46.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: I heard that reorder tone.
[46:46.780 --> 46:47.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what that is.
[46:47.520 --> 46:51.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: The phone system here is run by a company called tell link.
[46:51.300 --> 46:52.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't know...
[46:52.640 --> 46:53.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Fiber, have you ever heard of tell link?
[46:54.220 --> 46:56.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, actually, where I was, they used lock tell.
[46:57.260 --> 46:57.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, yeah.
[46:57.560 --> 46:59.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: The federal prison seemed to mostly use lock tell.
[46:59.920 --> 47:01.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think they're affiliated with Sprint.
[47:02.320 --> 47:03.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: But tell link, I don't know...
[47:05.180 --> 47:08.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Emmanuel, I don't know if you've gotten any bills for calls I've made to you.
[47:08.880 --> 47:12.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I forget what company it is because we get so many different weird phone calls.
[47:13.080 --> 47:14.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure which company.
[47:14.240 --> 47:16.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I can make a point in looking it up.
[47:16.060 --> 47:22.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'm curious as to what carrier they use and what they're charging, whether it's as exorbitant as what the lock tell charges.
[47:22.960 --> 47:23.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that bad.
[47:24.180 --> 47:24.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Really?
[47:24.720 --> 47:25.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's not that bad.
[47:25.840 --> 47:29.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know if it's more or less roughly than the calls from federal prison?
[47:29.500 --> 47:31.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's about five bucks for 15 minutes.
[47:31.220 --> 47:31.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.
[47:31.720 --> 47:34.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that's probably about three times the direct dial rate then.
[47:34.800 --> 47:35.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Probably.
[47:35.880 --> 47:38.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, we're going to try and take some phone calls if you're game for that.
[47:38.800 --> 47:39.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[47:39.000 --> 47:43.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, 212-279-3400 if you want to call us up and speak to Bernie S.
[47:43.480 --> 47:44.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: or just ask us other questions.
[47:45.220 --> 47:51.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, Bernie, I was just, uh, pondering the point as to why civil liberties groups have not taken an interest in this case.
[47:52.060 --> 47:52.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you have any theory on that?
[47:53.080 --> 47:57.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, actually, uh, this county probation officer visited with me, uh, about a week ago.
[47:58.180 --> 48:05.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he came in here to, uh, he was very, uh, judgmental and, uh, asking me a lot of interrogation-like questions.
[48:05.460 --> 48:09.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and, uh, it was unfortunately a confrontational meeting.
[48:09.640 --> 48:14.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: He was gathering information for what is called his pre-sentence investigation report, which he'll provide to the judge.
[48:14.800 --> 48:23.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: But in any case, uh, he, he seemed very annoyed, uh, in telling me that, uh, a lot of civil liberties groups had been calling his office and complaining to him.
[48:23.280 --> 48:24.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: So he didn't name any specific groups.
[48:24.840 --> 48:27.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: He just said various civil liberties groups had been calling his office.
[48:27.300 --> 48:31.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he's been, uh, telling them all that, uh, I'm being treated no different than anyone else.
[48:31.880 --> 48:46.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, well, I said, uh, well, Mr. Hoke, how many, how many other people have you, uh, managed to keep in prison here for, with a quarter million dollars bail for a, for a misdemeanor two with an offense gravity score of two?
[48:46.260 --> 48:53.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and, and under Pennsylvania law, a misdemeanor two with an offense gravity score of two is a, it's a very low seriousness crime.
[48:53.320 --> 49:02.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, the only other crime I could find in Pennsylvania that was also a misdemeanor two with an offense gravity score of two ...was insulting the flag.
[49:02.560 --> 49:05.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I asked him, you know, how many other people here are...
[49:06.140 --> 49:06.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Insulting the flag.
[49:07.000 --> 49:07.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Insulting the flag.
[49:07.580 --> 49:08.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not sure what that means.
[49:08.440 --> 49:09.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: How do you insult the flag?
[49:09.640 --> 49:14.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I suppose you could yell off the flagpole, your mother was a shower curtain or something like that.
[49:14.280 --> 49:17.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: It might be considered an insult, or you used to be a dress, or...
[49:17.120 --> 49:20.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what an insult like that would entail.
[49:20.280 --> 49:30.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: But apparently the state does not consider what I was convicted of being any more serious than insulting the flag.
[49:30.560 --> 49:32.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, I'm still held on a quarter of a million dollars' bail.
[49:32.740 --> 49:36.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, that was lowered at my last hearing to a paltry $100,000.
[49:37.140 --> 49:41.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm still a little short this week, so I haven't been able to get out.
[49:41.160 --> 49:42.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, let's see who's out there.
[49:42.780 --> 49:43.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's take a couple of phone calls.
[49:43.640 --> 49:45.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: 212-279-3400.
[49:45.380 --> 49:47.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully this conferencing system will hold up this week.
[49:48.580 --> 49:49.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[49:49.360 --> 49:49.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the air.
[49:49.980 --> 49:50.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: And please speak up.
[49:51.020 --> 49:51.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: How are you doing?
[49:52.060 --> 49:52.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[49:53.320 --> 49:54.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: This whole thing is really getting me upset.
[49:55.600 --> 49:56.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: A couple things.
[49:56.540 --> 50:00.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Number one, what are the implications for libraries, collectors of information?
[50:01.660 --> 50:11.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the new federal crime... I'm sorry, the new federal statute, sir, it's Title 18, which is the United States Criminal Code, Title 18, Section 1029.
[50:12.060 --> 50:17.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: That section of law has been around for probably about 15 or 20 years pertaining to credit card fraud.
[50:17.460 --> 50:31.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: But they just made some amendments to it late in 1994 under a big sweeping set of legislation called CALEA, or the Communications Assistance to Law Enforcement Act.
[50:32.000 --> 50:39.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Part of CALEA also included the FBI's digital telephony bill.
[50:39.980 --> 50:59.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: For listeners who aren't familiar with that, it's basically a bill that allocates a half billion dollars of our tax money to go towards providing digital wiretap access to every telephone central office in the country and to private PPXs and companies as well.
[50:59.000 --> 51:11.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: So the FBI will have direct access to wiretaping basically every phone line in the country without having to go through the steps that they've had to in the past as far as going to the phone company and having them hook it up.
[51:11.780 --> 51:13.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: So it's a whole sweeping set of legislation.
[51:14.220 --> 51:24.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Part of that legislation made it a federal felony to simply provide information to someone about an access device.
[51:26.700 --> 51:30.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: And Fiverr there is familiar with what an access device is.
[51:30.880 --> 51:32.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Could it even just be regular voice?
[51:32.940 --> 51:35.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it just says...
[51:35.360 --> 51:42.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: They list what an access device is, and it's like a card code, plate, account number, or other means of account access.
[51:42.900 --> 51:47.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently they consider computer passwords access devices also.
[51:48.080 --> 51:52.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they added on electronic serial numbers and mobile telephone numbers of cellular phones.
[51:53.300 --> 51:55.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Even non-working passwords.
[51:56.200 --> 51:56.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[51:57.180 --> 51:59.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Expired ones are considered to be access devices.
[52:00.160 --> 52:02.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was ruled on by a federal appeals court.
[52:02.200 --> 52:06.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: When you say giving information, could that not be expanded to include magazines?
[52:06.560 --> 52:07.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't specify.
[52:07.960 --> 52:08.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And books.
[52:08.240 --> 52:09.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's just giving information.
[52:10.160 --> 52:13.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I suppose if the government wants to take it that far, they can.
[52:13.660 --> 52:16.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's nothing that specifically excludes books, magazines, newspapers.
[52:17.560 --> 52:24.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have a federal appeal in that I filed late last year, which should be heard later this year.
[52:24.420 --> 52:28.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hopefully I'll be out of this prison so I can help prepare that case.
[52:28.360 --> 52:40.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm challenging the constitutionality of the statute that I was charged with, which makes it a federal felony to possess hardware and software.
[52:40.680 --> 52:41.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is everything okay over there?
[52:41.700 --> 52:44.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you seem to be used to these noises, but I know we're not.
[52:44.900 --> 52:47.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know how well you can hear that, but this kind of stuff...
[52:47.500 --> 52:50.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's actually pretty quiet here compared to how it usually is.
[52:50.420 --> 52:52.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's all kinds of yelling and screaming going on.
[52:52.500 --> 52:54.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm kind of numb to it.
[52:54.460 --> 52:57.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: I imagine by the time I get out of here, I've lost most of my normal hearing.
[52:57.620 --> 52:58.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: By the way, another question.
[52:58.840 --> 52:59.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[52:59.280 --> 53:01.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anything being done on a political level?
[53:01.580 --> 53:03.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Have any politicos been approached?
[53:04.020 --> 53:04.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Politicians?
[53:04.420 --> 53:06.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think this is kind of a hot potato, frankly.
[53:07.160 --> 53:17.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know how many politicians want to go out on a limb and try to help someone who the Secret Service has said they believe is dangerous.
[53:19.360 --> 53:24.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Especially in an election year like this, it's just not politically expedient to stick your neck out.
[53:24.320 --> 53:25.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's not much to gain.
[53:25.120 --> 53:31.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not like I have a lot of money and I can provide a lot of political pull or help to any candidate that would want to get involved.
[53:31.920 --> 53:33.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't know.
[53:33.560 --> 53:41.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, that's where a lot of our listeners can come in handy because they may have some connections and may be able to lend an ear to somebody and get some attention drawn.
[53:42.860 --> 53:45.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: But instead of even calling... I want to get off to let other people on.
[53:46.180 --> 53:55.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: But instead of even calling to your prosecutor, which is okay, I want to have all these people in mass if it's possible to call some sort of higher-up politico.
[53:55.860 --> 54:01.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you'd have to find out what higher-up politico might have an effect on the common police court.
[54:01.020 --> 54:02.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or perhaps even your congressman.
[54:03.500 --> 54:04.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow, that's an idea.
[54:05.560 --> 54:07.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, who is your congressman, Bernie?
[54:08.240 --> 54:10.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Where I live, his name is Kurt Weldon.
[54:11.500 --> 54:13.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the senator is Arlen Spector.
[54:14.220 --> 54:16.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's a bit disappointing to hear.
[54:17.740 --> 54:23.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, I met Arlen Spector while I was at a 2600 meeting in Philadelphia a couple of years ago.
[54:23.140 --> 54:24.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: He came to a 2600 meeting?
[54:24.740 --> 54:31.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, he happened to be at the 30th Street Station in Philadelphia right when he was traveling from Philadelphia back to Washington.
[54:32.000 --> 54:33.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: He just happened to be traveling at that time.
[54:33.680 --> 54:38.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: He was just standing a few feet away from our group there at the 2600 meeting.
[54:38.240 --> 54:39.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I met him at a 2600 meeting.
[54:40.560 --> 54:41.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's something.
[54:41.600 --> 54:53.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And just closing, doesn't it seem rather odd that as the Constitution and Bill of Rights get trashed, that we seem to be becoming more like our Cold War enemy, so to speak?
[54:53.200 --> 55:05.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, one of the things I realize is that all these constitutional protections we have against illegal search and seizure and freedom of the press and all that, all those things are well and good and I think are very important.
[55:05.380 --> 55:19.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: But when people who are sworn to uphold the Constitution subvert it and commit perjury and misrepresent the facts, then those safeguards are worthless.
[55:19.180 --> 55:33.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's something I learned throughout this case, that if a law enforcement officer is going to get up on the stand and commit perjury and say, I consented to give him a box of electronic parts when in fact they were seized and confiscated according to the police report,
[55:33.980 --> 55:43.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: and the judge believes the law enforcement officer, the constitutional protections against illegal search and seizures are worthless.
[55:43.940 --> 55:53.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I think the Constitution is a beautiful document, I think it's extremely well-worded, and I think it has the ability, if it's enforced, to protect us all.
[55:53.420 --> 56:01.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I don't think that's happening because the courts just seem to be looking by the wayside, and it's very depressing.
[56:01.280 --> 56:01.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it definitely is.
[56:02.080 --> 56:06.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I think that our inspector and Weldon ought to be contacted, for good or for bad.
[56:06.620 --> 56:07.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, good point.
[56:07.560 --> 56:08.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good point.
[56:08.120 --> 56:08.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks very well.
[56:08.300 --> 56:08.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll try that.
[56:08.880 --> 56:09.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[56:09.360 --> 56:09.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Take care.
[56:10.040 --> 56:10.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bye.
[56:10.880 --> 56:12.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, Bernie, one other thing.
[56:13.240 --> 56:26.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was thinking all the people in there, and in persons around the country, who don't have access to the number of ears that you have access to right now, you know, and it's not doing you much good having all these people know about your case.
[56:26.300 --> 56:33.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Imagine how helpless they must feel not having anybody outside of immediate friends and family knowing what's going on with them.
[56:33.860 --> 56:40.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: I can get a hint to what they're feeling like, and that's one of the reasons I try to help as many other inmates out as I can while I'm here.
[56:40.600 --> 56:47.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not only is it something for me to do, but it's something satisfying I can do to help other people, which is something I've tried to do all my life, frankly.
[56:48.860 --> 56:53.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: These guys, a lot of them, they don't have very good communication skills.
[56:53.840 --> 56:59.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: They don't know who their lawyer is because the court has appointed one, and the court hasn't bothered to tell them who their lawyer is.
[56:59.760 --> 57:04.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's just... these people just get lost in the system and have no outside resources.
[57:05.000 --> 57:09.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: My outside resources are... my personal outside resources are pretty limited, fortunately.
[57:09.140 --> 57:18.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have a few friends who have some contacts, and that, unfortunately, it hasn't made a lot of difference in the case from the standpoint of my time I've spent in jail.
[57:18.320 --> 57:25.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, and the time I'll be serving in jail, but it's helped my time feel less depressing knowing that there's people out there that support me.
[57:26.120 --> 57:29.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: But there's a lot of people here who don't have any friends on the outside or family.
[57:29.920 --> 57:32.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's try to squeeze in one more call, and I apologize to everybody who's been calling in.
[57:33.140 --> 57:34.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're just running out of time.
[57:34.580 --> 57:35.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a fascinating subject.
[57:35.780 --> 57:38.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: We could spend hours on it, but let's see if we can squeeze in one more.
[57:38.320 --> 57:38.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[57:38.660 --> 57:39.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the air.
[57:39.280 --> 57:39.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[57:39.820 --> 57:40.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: How are you doing?
[57:40.440 --> 57:40.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[57:41.260 --> 57:41.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[57:41.680 --> 57:46.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is it possible to speak to the fellow that's... what's his name?
[57:47.060 --> 57:47.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello?
[57:47.660 --> 57:47.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Emmanuel?
[57:48.740 --> 57:49.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the air right now.
[57:50.060 --> 57:50.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I am.
[57:50.780 --> 57:51.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, go ahead.
[57:51.240 --> 57:56.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, what I'm... I have actually a question for him about a phone number.
[57:56.360 --> 58:02.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have somebody that has offered money for my phone number, and I don't know how I would go about doing that, whether or not it's legal or...
[58:02.980 --> 58:03.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Offered money?
[58:03.700 --> 58:06.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you mean you have a good phone number and someone else wants it from you?
[58:06.340 --> 58:06.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[58:06.980 --> 58:07.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's really...
[58:07.660 --> 58:14.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not in the same area, so to run the lines and to do everything, I'm not really sure if it's possible.
[58:15.580 --> 58:26.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if somebody wants to buy your phone number, that's their headache, you know, if they tell them, you know, if you want to sell the number, say, okay, here it is, give me the money, your number, I'll change my number to something else, and, you know,
[58:26.680 --> 58:28.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: it's their problem from then on.
[58:28.780 --> 58:38.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: But when I spoke to a phone company, they said that they had to actually connect lines to transfer it from the Upper West Side all the way downtown.
[58:38.520 --> 58:40.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, again, again, that should not be your problem.
[58:40.440 --> 58:42.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: That should be the problem of the person who wants to buy the number.
[58:43.120 --> 58:44.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd like to spend more time on this.
[58:44.320 --> 58:45.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Unfortunately, we are out of time.
[58:46.300 --> 58:47.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Bernie, best of luck to you.
[58:47.640 --> 58:49.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully, we'll hear from you next week, and we'll visit you on Sunday.
[58:49.780 --> 58:51.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll be able to see firsthand what's going on.
[58:51.700 --> 58:53.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks, and keep those letters coming.
[58:53.560 --> 58:53.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[58:54.320 --> 58:54.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[58:54.880 --> 59:04.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: And anybody wanting information on Bernie's case, and you have access to the Internet, you can email BernieS at 2600.com, or you can finger the same account.
[59:04.920 --> 59:08.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can also send him mail at that account, which will be forwarded to him.
[59:08.660 --> 59:13.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll be back again next week for another exciting edition of Off the Hook next Tuesday night from 8 to 9.
[59:13.640 --> 59:14.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Housing Notebook is up next.
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