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And you are listening to WBAI in New York.
And according to this radio station,
it is now 4 o'clock, but that's a problem with our clock,
which we'll have to fix.
It's really 8 o'clock, which means it's time for...
Off the hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
It could be that much worse, but if they could, they would.
And a very good evening to everybody, this is Emmanuel Goldstein with another
exciting edition of Off The Hook.
And, uh, boy, you know, I wish, I wish people could see what kinds of things that
went on here. It's, it's always, it's always fun.
It's always a bit of carnival atmosphere here. Uh,
we are together once again tonight to talk about the remnants of freedom on the
net and what has been happening over the past week or so. Fiber, uh,
you're here as well.
I'm here as well.
How you doing? What's, what's been new this week?
Uh, well, I've been handed this magazine.
You have, you've been handed a magazine, huh? Well, that's, that's always fun.
What magazine were you handed?
It's a, it's called Freedom, uh, published by the Church of Scientology.
Oh, is that one of those, uh, sort of like, uh, you know, uh, black, white things,
you know, the Church of Scientology publishes something called Freedom. And, uh,
I think it's one of those things that you get handed on the subway that you get
really pissed off when somebody does that.
Uh huh. Well, no one's ever handed me that on the subway. Um,
uh, do they still make that magazine called the Plain Truth that they always used
to give out for free? Yeah. Yeah. I never could figure that one out. Um,
well, I've got some interesting, uh, posts from a bulletin board here,
which, uh, pertains to the Bernie S case. Um, I've got a letter.
Well, why don't you tell us, uh, are there any, are there any highlights there?
Yeah. There's a couple of highlights. Tell us the highlights.
I got some highlights here as well.
There's some, some criticism of your, your favorite news group, Alt.2600.
That's my favorite news group. Okay. I guess, I guess.
Well, it was kind of created. It was,
it was sort of in relation to the magazine. Yeah. Um,
it says a sample of what was found tells the story,
how to rip off a change machine,
how to make local and long distance calls without paying,
how to see pay TV in a hotel without being charged for it.
Then there were all sorts of such information on there.
I've been looking for information like that on Alt.2600 for a long time.
I can never find it.
All I find are people flaming each other and insulting each other and talking
about their lineage and things like that.
Well, they're the church of Scientology. They have thousands of followers.
They're just probably assigned some, assigned a couple of people.
They have people in the church of Scientology actually going through Alt.2600
looking for. Well, somebody had to do this. I guess. Okay.
There's a really great quote. It says,
this is apparently a quote from someone who, uh, posted on the news group.
Maybe one day software will be sold at a fair price.
Maybe one day upgrades won't come out every three months with features that
should have been in the original. That's not something that you always say.
Oh, they're quoting me.
But, uh,
but now there's something strange that I don't think you would have said some,
something along the lines of a Vivla revolution.
Never make that assumption, but okay, go ahead.
It's just a dream of mine, but it could happen.
That is if we all do our duty to God and pirate every damn piece of software,
we can get our hands on.
No, you see, that's not me because I would not use damn in a sentence. Okay.
Well, I didn't know software piracy. I used them by itself as you know,
an epithet, but I would never use it in a sentence like, yeah, it's just great.
They're basically criticizing the news group. Uh huh. But what's the point?
What's what, what is their overall point? The overall point, the, uh,
the title of the article is the open door to piracy.
And it says the truth about why some access providers have become a part of the
problem of internet piracy.
Now is our news group part of the problem of internet piracy on the high seas
or what exactly is it they're saying?
Well, uh, I, I think, uh, we could,
we could sum it up with the old sixties slogan that if, if you're, uh,
not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
Uh, they tend to think that you're part of the problem.
I guess I am part of the problem. It's not the first time I've heard that,
but what is the solution? It's a solution to shut us down. It's a, to censor us.
Um, it's really hard to say. I mean, they don't,
it doesn't look like they're really offering too many solutions other than, um,
they don't know. Cut to the chase at any point there. No, I mean,
on only a few pages later, they're talking about, uh,
freedom of speech at risk in cyberspace.
And I thought they were the very people that were putting it at risk.
Very confusing. Well, okay. They're criticizing our friend, uh,
Dave Lamarkey in Boston. Oh really? Yeah. The guy who, uh,
who was accused of software piracy running an FSP site and,
and then in the end he was, uh, acquitted. Yeah.
They basically say his acts effectively destroyed the value of scores of
programs. Uh-huh.
Well, I feel for them, I guess. Yeah. Um, all right. I have something here.
Maybe you can look at that a little bit more and see if you find any more
stunning quotes. Um, what I have is a piece by Kathleen Cleaver.
I don't know if she's related to Beaver, but, uh, you know,
judging from what she says, she very well might be,
this is the kind of thing you'd expect to see on, on fifties TV shows. Uh,
this comes from an editorial called kids need protection in cyberspace too. Uh,
a federal court recently upheld the felony convictions of Robert and Carlene
Thomas for their computer bulletin board. You may recall, uh,
Robert Thomas was on this program a number of years ago. Uh,
the board he ran was amateur action. It was an adult oriented bulletin board.
Uh, the, uh, going back to the article,
the entrepreneurial couple made a mint by selling unspeakably graphic computer
images of children raped by their parents,
women tortured and bestiality scenes that there must've been some hidden rooms
on that board. Cause I, I was, I was on it just looking around and, uh,
you know, I don't know, maybe,
maybe she just reads into a lot of things. I don't really know.
A leader among quote unquote adult, uh, computer services,
amateur action advertised on the internet by floating free teaser images,
including one of a woman nailed to the table by her genitals.
Well, you know, I also do a fair amount of cruising on the net.
I don't recall seeing a picture like that either. How would you do that?
I'm trying to figure that out too.
It might be illegal for us to even try to figure that out. Uh, but I think,
you know, it's, it's,
it's unfair to judge this unless we have the picture in front of us and we can
see exactly what it is we're talking about. It could be a mock photo.
It could be a joke. It could be, you know, a cartoon, who knows? You know,
this is something that, that is, that is said for shock value. You know,
a woman nailed, nailed to a, to a table by, by her genitals. I mean, you know,
it's kind of hard to stand up and say, well, you know, I think, you know,
children wouldn't be affected by seeing something like that.
It's hard to stand up in front of the crowd and say that. But, uh, you know,
when you have it in front of you and you can view it in context, then maybe,
you know, we can actually have an intelligent discussion about this. Um,
anyway, that's her lead paragraph. Shocking,
extremely the ACLU and other civil Liberty groups try to,
and she puts civil Liberty in big quotes, by the way, uh,
tried to defend the Thomas's by chanting the free speech mantra and howling
about cyber community rights. But thankfully the court was unmoved.
The Thomas's were convicted of the federal crime of selling obscenity to adults.
But if their customers had been teenagers and their pornography soft core,
they would be scot free. That is before the communications decency act,
part of the telecommunications law signed by president Bill Clinton last week.
The act prohibits the knowing distribution or display of porn to children via
computers. It does not prevent adults from receiving or accessing it.
Uh, there was nothing novel about this new law.
We have long embraced laws that protect children from exploitation by adults.
We protect adults from selling porn magazines or renting X rated videos to
children.
We also require adult bookstores to distance themselves from schools and
playgrounds. Do these laws limit adults freedom? Of course they do.
But, uh, are they reasonable and necessary anyway? Few would dispute it.
Specifically,
the communications decency act protects children from quote indecent unquote
material,
which the law defines as patently offensive depictions or descriptions of sexual
or excretory activities or organs. Well, now you see,
here's where the problem begins because the definition of indecency is something
that we at the radio station are very familiar with.
And it pretty much encompasses any rap song you might want to play a certain
radio plays or comedy routines or lots and lots of things that a
child, uh, traveling with his minister father, some Sunday afternoon might be,
might be affected by in some way by somebody's viewpoint. Uh,
indecency is a very nebulous term. You know,
it encompasses the seven dirty words plus a whole lot of other words and,
and references and things like that. In other words, you know,
like HBO shows certain things on TV,
but, uh, you can't say it on the radio.
You can't say it on regular TV because of the indecency clause. It's not obscene.
And it's, it's, it's not illegal, but, uh,
you can get fined if you do it on the radio or if you do it on, on free TV.
So, uh, that's the first problem right there. Continuing with the article,
some free speech zealots don't like this standard and are promising a challenge
in court. The threat is hardly ominous.
The indecency standard has survived numerous court challenges by friends of the
porn industry. The, uh,
the communications decency act will not criminalize Shakespeare or Joyce.
Uh, indecency laws require the courts to evaluate material in its context,
taking into account things such as literary value. Well, now that's just the thing.
Do you want to miss Beaver Cleaver here to be telling you what is of literary
value and what is not, who's going to make that decision? You know,
we can air something here at Pacifica radio and the folks here at this radio
station, and most of our listeners will consider it to be of artistic merit,
but somebody from Memphis, Tennessee may not feel the same way when you start
putting community standards, uh, as, as the rule to how to, um,
how to, uh, judge something on the internet. You have to go by the,
by the most, um, uh, broad, uh, broad spectrum of community standards,
which means whatever it is that won't offend anybody.
And of course that's what offends me the most is something that,
that won't offend anybody. So, uh,
that's, that's a big problem right there.
And that's the point we just can't seem to make, you know, that, that, uh,
literary value. That's, that's something that the people,
the people who are the artists,
they're the ones that define what is of literary value and what is not,
not the politicians, not the, uh, not the special interest groups,
not the radical right or the Christian coalition. It's, it's up to the artists,
you know, and if you don't like it, you don't have to look at it.
You don't have to listen to it on the internet though.
That's going to be rather difficult because it's not a broadcast medium.
It's rather everybody has the right to say whatever it is they want to say,
and you can listen or you cannot listen. It's up to you really.
Now that's a whole lot more difficult because of these restrictions.
Anyway, continuing, finishing up the article here, outside the courtroom,
common sense,
common sense helps us discern great literature from gratuitous sex.
Indecency restrictions do not regulate the message,
but the manner in which it is conveyed. Everyone is happy.
Everyone is blissful. There's no need to fear. We are your friends.
I guess I'm reading more into that than I should.
As the Supreme Court aptly recognized, few if any thoughts exist that cannot be
expressed in a less graphic manner. Now, I don't know about you,
but that phrase scares me. You can say what you want to say,
but just say it in a less harsh manner.
We'll say it in something that won't get people upset, that won't offend anybody.
You can still make your point,
but you can't make it so that you upset people.
How do you feel about that? Can we live like that?
I'm thinking very happy thoughts right now.
Are you thinking happy thoughts? I'm glad.
I'm glad the happiness is spread all the way over to the other side of the room
there.
The objection to the new cyberporn law has less to do with freedom than with
arrogance and greed. Most Americans do not have access to the internet.
The online elite would like to keep it that way.
That's us, I guess. Who is this online elite?
I don't know. I guess we're so elite we can't even see them.
When you're elite, you can't see the elite, right?
Because you're too elite to be able to discern that. Anyway,
they know that when the information superhighway is truly open to all,
they will have to live by the rules of a diverse community,
respecting all its members, including children. Well,
you know, it would be nice if these same little, uh,
little stabs at logic were applied to the people saying these things.
Why can't they live in relative peace and respect the rights of other people?
Why must they try to control the way other people think and express themselves?
You know, I'm going to see things on the net that disturb me,
that I don't agree with. And you know what?
I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about it or reading it or,
or, or going crazy over it. These people will do the opposite.
They see something they don't like and they will do everything possible to knock
it down, to control it, to really simple reason. Yes.
They just don't have time for their kids. I guess not. They're too busy, uh,
out there lobbying politicians to, uh,
to make the world more like what they want it to be. I don't know. It's, uh,
it's a dark days ahead of us. Um, interesting week.
Did you hear about, uh, Shitomo Shimomura's website? Uh, yeah.
Takendown.com. Uh, yeah. Takedown.com turned into Takendown.com.
This was in the wall street journal and it happened because, uh, well, I mean,
what, what, what somebody do?
They just simply mailed something with, with a fake address. Is that all it took?
Oh, they, they sent a request to a inter Nick and the inter Nick doesn't really
necessarily double check where all the requests come from.
They get thousands of requests a day to do things. So, uh, they,
they simply processed it and changed it to taken down. Well now, is it true?
The rumors is just computers that do these things. There's no human involved.
In most cases,
if you actually fill out the form and there's no errors in the form being
processed, it's done automatically. So this could happen again. Oh yeah.
All somebody has to do is fill out a form and put the right information there as
far as who's making their request and it'll just go through.
Well, they're, they claim,
they claim that they're taking steps to prevent that,
that they want to set up a whole a key exchange kind of thing to actually
authenticate a request. I mean, we're paying now, what, a hundred bucks a year,
50 bucks a year for 50 bucks a year or a hundred the first time for internet
domains and changes and things like that. So yeah, I think, you know,
being able to prevent somebody from doing that would be part of that.
That fee would be a nice idea. I mean, what are we paying for? The computer is,
uh, you know, a single computer program doing all this. Yeah.
But you can't help get angry at the people that are just screwed it up for
everybody. It existed like that for years.
Never had to worry about somebody like changing what your domain name was just
to be obnoxious. Things like that just never happened with, with,
with tens of thousands of names. Things like that never happened.
Never happened before. No. I mean, it's certainly, uh,
not to the extent that you'd hear about it in the wall street journal.
It wasn't anything that people really cared to do.
But then there weren't very many sites with names like takedown.com.
No, that's true. In people's faces saying, uh, come on and get me. Yeah. Um,
anyway, so that's, uh, I think it's fixed. Finally.
It took a number of days for it to get fixed, I guess for the time being it's
fixed. Uh-huh. But one thing that, uh,
that they do know for certain is that Kevin Mitnick did not do it.
Yeah. This time he's off the hook this time. It sure looks that way. Okay. Um,
speaking of, uh, of horrible criminals behind bars. Um,
I've talked to Bernie S a couple of times this week.
He might be getting ahold of us later on, by the way, you know,
remember the problems we're having last week. You know,
he wasn't even trying to get ahold of us because he was, he had some, uh,
some kind of, uh, uh, prison appointment that, uh, sort of kept him, uh,
kept him away from the phones. That's right. That guy was still a schmuck.
Yeah. He was still a schmuck for even thinking that he could stop Bernie S.
Uh, but we fixed the problem anyway. So even if he did do the same thing again,
it's, it's not going to have any effect on us,
but it's possible that Bernie might be tied up this, um, this week anyway. Uh,
we're going to try to visit him on Sunday and we'll be able to bring you,
I guess, the grim tidings at that point as to what exactly it's like, but you
know, there's, there's a lot of really bad things going on. I mean,
when you're in prison, of course it's, it's really awful. Um,
but when you hear from him, it's just,
you hear the people screaming in the background and you realize he's,
he's in this, this crazy place we could not even imagine. I mean,
I think back to, uh, you know,
the high school cafeteria and that's about the closest I can get to the,
the, the sounds that are emanating from this place. Of course,
it's nothing like that, but it's, um, it's,
it's really an inappropriate place for someone like him to be. Uh,
use of this is getting around slowly, but you know, I gotta tell you,
I am very perplexed.
I am very disappointed in the response by people who could do something about
this. People like writers, people like civil liberties groups, uh,
people that should see, I mean,
everyone's crying about the communications decency act, but you know,
you've seen the signs, you've heard the rumblings of this now for at least a
year. That was the time to, to speak out against it.
That was the time to do something about this.
Where are these people when there's an individual who is affected by something
that is clearly wrong, clearly wrong. You know,
someone who is not even accused of, uh, of, of making a free phone call,
but simply of having the elements necessary to build a device,
which could make a free phone call. I mean,
are there people out there that really think that it's right to put somebody
away in prison for years with murderers and rapists? And I mean,
with them like in the same cells with them. That's right. I mean, I don't know.
I feel like I'm on the wrong planet or something, if that's true.
How can people think that way? I mean, fiber, you, you went through this,
I think to a lesser degree. I mean, you went through hell too, but yeah,
I wasn't around any rapists or murderers, at least not that they admitted,
but you must've come in contact with the kind of thought that said, yeah,
it's okay to do this. It's okay to send people like you to prison,
to teach you a lesson. What goes through their minds? I can't figure it out.
I'm trying, I really am.
I'm trying to reach these people and see how they are thinking.
And I've got some of their thoughts here on paper, which I'm going to read.
But I mean, what, what's your interpretation? Well, uh, I read that,
that, uh, yeah. And I don't know. Uh,
you didn't say where it came from. I don't know where it came from. Okay.
I mean,
it sounds to me just like a bunch of 14 year olds that have no idea what they're
talking about, bickering with each other. Well, yeah, you know,
but I've read things on the well too. And it's a bunch of lawyers.
Same way. Yeah. I mean, not to put people down or anything like that, but that's,
that's sort of the beauty of the net. You don't know what, who it is.
It's really talking. It could be a 14 year old. It could be. Yeah.
And a lot of times 14 year olds make a lot more sense.
I stopped trying to figure these people out a long time ago. I just summed it up.
But who are these people? That's what I'm trying to get at.
People that are stupid. There's smart people and there's stupid people.
Of course there's, there's the,
the 99% of the population that have no opinion whatsoever. Yeah. Yeah.
But, um, there's just a lot of dumb people out there.
But what do you do? I mean, do you try to reach these quote unquote dumb?
I stopped trying to reach dumb people a long time ago.
So all it does is aggravate you.
But the thing is if you don't reach the dumb people and you know, I'm not,
I'm not saying this in a patronizing way. You know, I'm just,
that's a star label right now at this moment. You know, they, they could be,
I don't think they're dumb to be honest.
I really think that they're misled or maybe they don't care for some reason.
How about naively stupid? Well, that's how I've been described.
That's how you've been described. Naively stupid. Naively stupid. Yeah. In fact,
that's the exact phrase I've heard a lot. When we say things like people like
Bernie asked people like yourself should not be in prison for your interest,
for things that you do. Uh, we're naively stupid because we don't, uh,
we don't pay attention to the law because we, we,
we think that by speaking out openly that people will,
will take an interest and will rally around us and things like that. Yeah.
I've heard naively stupid a lot over the years and I have a feeling I'm going to
be hearing it a bit more. Let me read you some of these comments.
Let's give you an idea of what we're talking about. Um, all the information,
and you can get all this information too,
by either emailing or fingering Bernie S at 2600.com or visiting our
website, uh, which is going to be expanding greatly in the, in the days ahead.
With all kinds of other information. Um, okay.
These are some replies to the information,
much of which we've talked about over the weeks. Uh, this guy known as Twinkie,
I don't know what board this came from. Actually, this was just forwarded to me.
It looks pretty obvious that he was a freaker. He deserved what he got. No, why?
Because he got caught. Oh,
and the 2600.com address doesn't exactly make him look clean either.
Guilt by association. Put 2600.com at the end of your name and right away,
you're guilty of something. Well, okay. Now this guy says he was a freaker.
He deserved what he got because he got caught.
I can follow the logic a little bit. You know, he got, he got caught and therefore,
he deserves to pay the price. But what did he get caught doing?
That's the thing no one can seem to answer.
I don't know. I just think you're trying to like overanalyze stupidity.
Somebody trying to justify the fact that they think he deserved what he got
because he got caught. Not for any other reason. He was a freaker. He got caught.
So he deserved it. I don't understand the, uh, the path of logic.
Well, I guess this guy is a freaker who didn't get caught.
So he feels that he deserves to be free or something. I don't know.
If you're stupid enough to get caught, you have to pay the price.
I've heard that a lot of times. Okay. And you know, I don't,
I don't necessarily agree with that logic in any sense,
but what is it that he thinks he got caught doing? That's,
that's what I'm trying to like, I'm asking people,
what is it that he did that made him deserve to wind up in prison?
Well, I don't think this Twinkie person has any, any idea whatsoever.
What, what Bernie did. I don't think so either. I don't think so. Uh,
we can't make fun of their names by the way, much as we'd like to Twinkie person.
Yeah, I know. Twinkie per, but say that seriously.
Don't say that as if you're making fun of his name. Twinkie is a nice name.
I'm not making fun of it. I'm just saying it with a, his name is Twinkie.
I mean, it's his name. All right. Okay.
Now this guy known as Raven, uh, says, uh, wow. Uh,
that was a great parody of 1984. Orwell would be proud. Wait,
this isn't a joke. And then there's that word.
That's not permitted by the CDA that follows that. Uh, yeah, Twinkie is right.
Thank God they caught this evil bastard.
And to think some of that court time and those officers appearances could have
been wasted catching rapists and murderers. Yes. I think, uh,
I think he sort of nailed it. I don't think it was wasted.
They're in there with Bernie. That's true. Uh,
then Twinkie responds with you'll change your response if you get a $3,000
cellular bill. Uh, yeah. Okay.
What does that have to do with anything? Oh, you know,
those freakers are all the same. Okay. Good evening. Hello.
You have a telling collect call from a County jail.
The call is from Bernie S
to accept this collect call with a push button phone.
Please press two now. Thank you for using tell link.
Well, Bernie, how you doing? I guess,
I guess you heard some of what we were reading and you just had to call in to
respond to this. Actually, no, they just let me out of my cage.
They were counting us all tonight.
So I guess it was released from my cage a couple of minutes ago,
but I felt the need to call. What were you discussing?
We're reading some, uh, I guess, priceless bits off a bulletin board where,
where your case has been discussed. And some people, uh, I don't know,
they just, we're trying to figure out their, the way their minds work, you know?
Uh, well, um, some of the bulletin board users, um, I, one of,
one of whom said that you're a freaker and you deserve what you got because you
got caught. And we're trying to figure out what he's, what he's thinking you did.
Well, I, I can say that, uh,
I was not charged with committing any fraud or making any free phone calls.
I was merely charged with possession of computer program software and possession
of a tone dialer. So it had been, uh,
or one tone dialer had been altered with a 6.5 megahertz crystal,
both of which are available at Radio Shack. So that's what I'm accused of.
That's what I was charged with.
And if there was any more serious activity involved,
I'm sure I would have been charged with it, but I wasn't. So, uh, that's it.
And I, apparently the government thinks that's a heinous act now because now
it's a federal felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison,
imprisonment and a $250,000 fine.
Pretty unbelievable. Um, I, I just want to read one other, uh, small bit here.
Then we're going to let you talk and tell us what's been going on over the past
couple of weeks. This is from someone with the initials JFK. Uh,
hopefully, hopefully no connection there. Uh,
people who are affronted by this case are a big part of what is wrong with our
criminal justice system. It's obvious what this guy was up to.
I'm sure that there was plenty of evidence to convict him or he wouldn't have
made a deal. If you break the law and get caught, you should pay the penalty.
We shouldn't have to spend years prosecuting these guys. Oh, Bernie,
what do you think of that?
Well, what I was charged with was not even a crime. Um,
according to federal law up until only a few weeks before I was charged with it.
And as a matter of coincidence,
I happen to be the first person in the country charged with, with this new law,
making it a felony to even just to possess a software that could be used to
modify telecommunications instruments. And, uh,
I didn't even know the law existed. In fact,
it hadn't even been printed in the law books until after I was arrested because
they don't update the books until every six months. So I don't know. I mean,
I don't know what it's obvious to this person I was up to.
What I was up to was, uh, um, giving information to other people about how to,
how to experiment with the telecommunications technology. Um,
I was not committing any fraud and that's, that's how I see it.
If somebody, uh, thinks it's obvious I'm up to something, why don't they,
why don't they say what it is instead of making some generality?
Well, I think there's a bit of, uh, of cynicism in the,
in the average person who believes that if you're in jail,
you must've done something to get there.
And I think that's what the secret service is preying upon is how people view
prisoners.
Well, sure. When you go before a judge and you're, and you're in shackles,
your legs are shackled together and you're, you're in handcuffs and you're in a
prison, a green prison outfit. Um, you look like a criminal, you know?
So, uh, I can see how that would be, uh, misinterpreted. Of course,
of course the government said a lot of other things that, uh,
that they thought it was a deep service that I was dangerous. Although they
weren't, uh, you were at the hearing, I believe. And, uh,
Oh yeah.
The secret service agent was despite the pretty thorough cross-examination by
my attorney was not able to, uh,
come up with any factual basis at all about why he thinks I'm dangerous.
He just kept saying he's dangerous,
but he couldn't say how or why he thought I was dangerous.
So I'm still wondering myself. I know that I'm, I know that I'm not dangerous.
I'm, I'm a pacifist. I've never heard another person in my life.
And I'm not capable of committing violence,
but apparently the government thinks otherwise.
I think they were really concerned about all the information I had.
I'm an information collector and, uh,
collected a lot of information from public and private sources, none of it illegal.
Well, a lot of this is first amendment material. I mean, you had books,
you had magazines, you had information,
and they're basically convicting you based on, on you, uh,
using all that information to commit the most heinous crimes.
But in actuality, your only crime is, is having books, having magazines.
Well, when you put all the information I had together and look at certain things
out of context,
one could put together a circumstantial case that this guy must've been up to
something. If he has books, uh, that, uh,
describe secret service activities, uh, if he has, uh, uh,
photographs of, of some secret service agents, uh, which were,
which had previously appeared on television. Um, if he has, uh,
a library of over a thousand books,
maybe five or six of which describe how explosives are, are made. Um,
then again, I've never built anything that's explosive,
but I'd like to read all kinds of strange subjects.
As people like to read murder mysteries without being murderers. Uh,
I thought it was okay to have any information and collect it just to feed my
curiosity. But apparently the government is, uh, very much afraid of that now.
So, um, I learned my lesson that, uh, knowledge is a liability.
Okay. Now that's the part I like to ask these people, you know,
do you not see how this could affect each and every one of us? You know,
if you have the wrong books,
if you have material that somebody thinks could be dangerous,
is it right to put somebody in prison based solely upon that?
And everything that we're talking about here,
everything that you've been put in prison for is based on taking something that
you have and expanding it to encompass something that it could be used for,
but not something that it was being used for while in your possession.
Right.
I was not even alleged by the secret service to have done anything illegal with
any of the books or information or software or hardware that I had in my
possession. Um,
they interviewed about 20 people across the country who've known me for years
and we're not able to get any anyone to say I was capable of doing anything
dangerous or violent in any way yet they continue to imply that I might be a
threat to, uh,
either the secret service or to the president who I supported and voted for.
I mean, it's ludicrous, but in any case, uh, they're, uh,
they're getting their licks in.
They went,
they went actually as far as to contact people around the country who knew you
to ask about your political affiliations and things like that.
Oh yes. Uh, apparently that's a criteria now.
You don't have the right to political beliefs. Then, uh, watch out. I mean,
that's the only thing I can guess. And, uh, I'm not a, a radical of any,
any sort, but, uh, I like to be informed.
That's why I collect information and, uh, and I vote regularly. And, uh,
although I will not be permitted to vote anymore now that I'm convicted because,
uh, now, uh, now a federal crime for me to vote. So, um,
I don't know if that makes any sense either, but what do you think?
None of this makes any sense to me. None of this makes any sense at all.
But what are the, what are the laws? I could ask fiber this too,
as far as, uh, voting after you've been convicted of something.
I honestly don't know. Um, this is just something I, uh,
I was told that that's one of the restrictions that, um, I will have.
So I don't know. I don't know what the penalty would be if I voted.
Yeah. I can't, I can't vote myself either.
I don't know if it's for the duration of my probation or what,
but, um, that's something that eventually goes away and you can vote again.
But, uh, as far as other things like the constitutional right to bear arms,
you would have to actually, well,
we would have to actually appear before a judge, a federal judge,
and show that we deserve the right to possess a firearm.
Uh, you know, this is, that's kind of interesting point because, uh,
you being in Pennsylvania,
Pennsylvania has a law saying it's okay to carry concealed firearms, right?
Uh, you have to have a permit. Okay. Yeah. You have a permit,
but you can carry a concealed firearm and yet you can do that,
but you can't carry the parts that are necessary to build a box that beeps,
you know, and you can buy these parts through any radio shack store.
There's over 5,000 radio shacks across the country. Um, so I don't know.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but here I am.
Well, now let me ask something else.
You brought up a violence and safety and things like that.
How is it for you there? Are you safe there? And, and,
and the condition that you're in, are you in any danger whatsoever?
I don't think so. I'm because my bail was initially set, um,
on January 12th at a quarter of a million dollars and not having that kind of
money in my pocket or ever in my life or ever will
probably. Um, I was relegated to the, uh, the high security, um,
block cell block here in this prison in Eastern Pennsylvania. Uh,
it's for the 24 most dangerous, violent, uh, uh,
inmates or those who have the highest bail.
And since my bail was a quarter of a million dollars, um,
higher than is for some people who, who shoot people, um,
I was put in that area. I'm on the only Caucasian on this cell block,
but I don't really feel, uh, I'm in danger. The first few days I was here,
there was some,
some tension because there was a belief or a rumor that gotten around the prison
that I was an undercover cop.
That's just, that's just peachy.
Because I, uh, I don't, I don't look like a criminal,
whatever that or whatever a criminal is supposed to look like.
I don't look like that apparently, according to some of the guards. So, um,
the inmates didn't think I was a criminal either. And therefore,
what was I doing there other than to collect information about them and
hopefully you have newspaper clippings you can point to and say, look,
I'm a criminal $250,000 bail. You know, the whole works at least,
not the people that need to believe that. Believe that.
I think I did a good job of convincing people here. I've sort of earned my stripe,
so to speak, helping people out with their,
with their cases from a legal standpoint.
I've become somewhat of a paralegal over the past year,
having to deal with all this federal and state law
nonsense. So I've just, uh,
helped a lot of these inmates out who are functionally illiterate and don't even
really can't, unfortunately can't even read their, their legal papers.
So I've been trying to pass the time by helping people with their cases as much
as I can. And that's,
that's pretty rewarding because these people are desperate.
Bernie, while we still have the chance,
can you give out your address so people can mail you things and tell us what we
can mail you to make your life a little more sane?
Yeah, actually, uh, it would, it would be really helpful for me, uh,
emotionally and mentally just to have something to read. Um,
anybody who can mail me a letter, words of encouragement, uh, uh,
newspaper or magazine articles, uh, jokes, uh,
just anything to keep my mind occupied would be helpful. Um,
you can send it to, to me, Ed Cummings, C-U-M-M-I-N-G-S,
North Hampton County Prison,
666 Walnut street.
That's, that's a great address.
Yeah. 666 very appropriate. Uh, Walnut street, uh, D as in dog,
D 22. That's my cell number.
And that's an Easton E-A-S-T-O-N-P-A.
The zip code is 1-8-0-4-2. And, uh,
apparently, uh, books and magazines are not permitted to be sent in. Um,
some people tried to send me some, um,
general interest books and magazines and they were refused. So, uh,
anybody who wants to send that can try, but don't,
they may get it sent back to them.
Apparently reading is considered a dangerous activity here, but any,
anything, anybody wants to write me or words of encouragement or jokes or, uh,
yeah, I heard anything with my spirit should be very helpful.
I heard a copy of discover magazine was deemed inappropriate for you. Yes.
A relative from, uh, from Iowa mailed me a copy of discover magazine and that was
rejected.
Apparently that's not considered by the prison to be suitable reading material
for their inmates.
That's not, um, there are inmates here who have a pornographic magazine.
So apparently that's, that's all right. Although that's not my reading therapy.
For some reason, uh, discover magazine is not allowed in, but, uh,
well,
if you can find one of those pornographic magazines that has a science section
in the middle of it, uh, perhaps that could be a solution.
Maybe I could get away with reading.
If I could somehow smuggle a discover magazine in here and like hide it inside a
hustler magazine, well, then it would, it would be okay. Apparently.
This is conspiracy and it's crossing state lines.
So I have to just stop that right here. That's true. Um, anything else?
You're hearing a schedule for, I believe, two weeks from today.
It's scheduled for March 5th. Um, and at that point,
the county judge will decide what to, uh,
how long he will sentence me for the state guidelines.
My case started out as a federal case,
but because I was on probation for misdemeanor from, uh,
something that occurred back in 1993, um,
my probation was revoked after I served my seven months in federal prison.
So I'm back here on that probation violation and the state guidelines
indicate a zero to three month sentences.
What is what the state recommends for my situation. However, uh,
the probation officer,
because he's being pressured by the secret service has told me he's going to
recommend the, uh, the absolute maximum, which is a 12 to 24 month sentence.
So I'm not optimistic because there's been a lot of publicity front page
newspaper articles about my case here in this area.
Apparently the secret service doesn't get up here very often and it's a
considered a big event.
So people think I must be up to something or the secret service is coming up
here. So, um, I'm not optimistic.
I expect really to get to 12 to 24 months. If I get anything less than that,
I'll be, I'll be pleasantly surprised,
but I'm planning on being here for the duration.
Well, I just, I really don't understand how you're able to keep such a,
such spirits. I don't think I'd be able to survive nearly as well as you have.
Uh, well, I don't have a choice. Some days I just wish, uh,
my life was over, but other days, uh,
it's helpful when I'm talking to friends on the phone, that's, uh,
that's our 32nd warning. We're going to get cut off,
but some days are extremely depressing. Other days, um,
I just get by. And, uh, again, any,
any written communication I get from people would be helpful in keeping me from
getting too depressed.
Everybody in the room wants to say hi. So everybody say hi together.
Hey, that sounds great.
Hey, this is DT.
I have about a hundred people here.
Wow. Uh, so thanks everyone who wrote me in federal prison. Thank you very much.
That was a, that was a big help. Um, it was really, uh,
okay. Well, that's, uh, that's that. Bernie S, uh,
talking to us live from prison and, uh, you know,
we do this each week and hope that it's the last week we have to do it.
But just, uh,
the nightmare just keeps continuing and we're not going to forget about him.
I just wish, um, one of the things I wanted to ask him,
I didn't get a chance to this time is, you know,
where are all the groups that claim to stand up for human rights? You know,
are they saying that, uh, this is justified, this is right.
This is where he belongs. I mean, I, I want to hear from these groups.
I want to know why they aren't doing anything about it.
Are they just totally understaffed and they can't, uh, you know,
they just don't have the time. It seems to me,
I can't think of a case that's more important right now that doesn't affect
everybody. So, uh, I don't know until,
until more people stand up and start saying things is going to appear like, uh,
we're the only ones who care, but I know that's not true. I know it by, uh,
the number of people that contact us and want to know what's going on. Uh,
if you're on the net, you want to keep in touch with situations as they occur.
You can, uh, finger, uh, Bernie s at 2600.com.
You know, I think he might be back. Hello? Hello. Okay.
We're going to try and take some calls with him. Collect call from a County jail.
Hey, did you hear that?
Thank you for using tell link. Hey, I jumped the gun there. I hope that's okay.
Oh, it worked. I cut you off. I heard that reorder tone.
I don't know what that is.
It's the phone system here is run by a company called tell link.
And I don't know a fiber. Have you ever heard of telling? No, actually, uh,
where I was, they use lock tail, right? Yeah.
That's the federal prison seem to mostly use lock tail on there.
I think they're affiliated with sprint, but I tell link, I don't know. Uh,
uh, Emanuel, I don't know if you've gotten any bills for calls I've made to you.
Yes. I forget what company it is because we get so many different weird phone
calls. So I'm not sure which company, but I can,
I can make a point of looking it up and I'm curious as to what carrier they use
and what, you know, what, what they're charging,
whether it is exorbitant is what the tell charges. It's not that bad. Really?
No, it's not that bad. Is it, you know,
if it's more or less roughly than a, than the calls from federal prison,
it's about five bucks for 15 minutes. So that's,
that's probably about three times a direct dialed rate then probably. Anyway,
we're going to try and take some phone calls. If you're, if you're game for that,
sure. Uh, two, one, two, two, seven, nine, three, 400.
If you want to call us up and speak to Bernie S or just ask us other questions.
Uh, Bernie, I was just pondering the point as to why civil liberties groups have
not taken an interest in this case. Do you have any theory on that? Well,
actually, uh, this County probation officer visited with me, uh,
about a week ago and he, he came in here to, uh,
he was very judgmental and,
and asking me a lot of interrogation like questions and, and,
and, uh, it was unfortunately a confrontational meeting.
He was gathering information for what is called his pre-sentence investigation
report, which he'll provide to the judge. But in any case, uh, he,
he seemed very annoyed, uh,
in telling me that a lot of civil liberties groups had been calling his office
and complaining to him. So he didn't name any specific groups.
So he just said various civil liberty groups to call in his office.
And he's been telling them all that I'm being treated no different than anyone
else. And well, I said, uh, well, Mr. Hoke, how many,
how many other people have you managed to keep in prison here for
with a quarter million dollars bail for, uh,
for a misdemeanor to with an offense gravity score of two and under
Pennsylvania law, a misdemeanor to with an offense gravity score of two is a,
it's a very low seriousness crime. And, uh,
the only other crime I could find in Pennsylvania that was also a misdemeanor to
with an offense gravity score of two was, uh, insulting the flag.
So I asked him, you know, how many other people here are insulting the flag,
insulting the flag? I'm not sure what that means. How do you insult the flag?
Well, I suppose you could yell up the flagpole. Uh,
your mother was a shower curtain or something like that.
It might be considered an insult or you used to be addressed or I don't know what,
what an insult like that would entail. But, uh, apparently, uh,
the state does not consider what I was, uh,
convicted of being any more serious than insulting the flag. However,
I'm still held on a quarter of a million dollars bail.
I feel that was lowered at my last hearing to a, to a paltry a hundred thousand
dollars, but I'm still a little short this week.
So I haven't been able to get out.
All right. Let's uh, let's see who's out there.
Let's take a couple of phone calls two on two, two, seven, nine, three, 400.
Hopefully this conferencing system will hold up this week.
Good evening. You're on the air and please speak up.
Okay. This whole thing is really getting me upset. Um, a couple of things.
Number one, what are the implications for libraries,
collectors of information?
Well, the new federal crime, I'm sorry, the new federal statutes, uh,
that's title 18, which is the United States criminal code,
total 18 section 10 29. Uh,
that section of law has been around for probably about 15 or 20 years pertaining
to a credit card fraud primarily,
but they just made some amendments to it late in 94. Um,
under a big sweeping set of legislation called, uh, uh,
Kalia or the communications assistance to law enforcement act.
Part of Kalia was also, uh,
also included the FBI's digital telephony bill for
listeners who familiar aren't familiar with that. It's a basically a, uh,
a bill that allocates a half billion dollars of our tax money to go towards,
uh, uh,
providing digital wiretap access to every telephone central office in the
country and to private PPXs and companies as well.
So the FBI will have direct access to wiretapping, uh,
basically every phone line in the country without having to go through the
steps that they've had to in the past,
as far as going to the phone company and having them hook it up. So, uh,
it's a whole sweep instead of legislation.
Part of that legislation made it a federal felony to simply, uh, uh,
provide information to someone about an access device.
And, uh, Fiber there's is familiar with what an access device is.
And, uh, it even just be regular voice. Well, um, it, it just says,
they list what an access device is. And it's like a card coat, card code plate,
an account number or other means of account access.
Apparently they consider a computer passwords, uh, uh, access devices also.
And they added on electronic serial numbers and mobile telephone numbers of
cellular phones, even non-working, uh, even non-working passwords.
That's right. They're expired.
Ones are considered to be access devices that was ruled on by a federal appeals
court.
When you say giving information, could that not be expanded to include magazines?
It doesn't specify getting information.
So, uh, I suppose if the government wants to take it that far, they can,
there's nothing that specifically excludes books, magazines, newspapers. Um,
I have a federal appeal in, uh, that I filed a late last year,
which should be heard later this year. Hopefully I'll be out of this prison.
So I can, uh, I can help prepare that case.
I'm challenging the constitutional constitutionality of,
of the statute that, uh, that I was charged with, which makes it a, uh,
a federal felony to possess software.
Is everything okay over there? I mean, uh, you seem to be used to these noises,
but I know we're not, but yeah, I don't know how well you can hear that,
but this kind of stuff, it's actually pretty quiet here compared to how it
usually is. It's all kinds of yelling and screaming going on.
I've come and kind of numb to it. I imagine I'll, by the time I get out of here,
I've lost most of my normal hearing.
By the way, another question. Yeah. Anything being done on a political level?
Have any political has been approached, uh, politicians?
I think they, I think this is kind of a hot potato, frankly. Uh,
I don't know how many politicians want to go out on a limb and, and,
uh, and,
and try to help someone who the secret service has said they believe is
dangerous. Um, it's especially in an election year like this,
it's just not politically expedient to stick your neck out.
There's not much to gain.
It's not like I have a lot of money and I can provide a lot of political pull or
help to, to any candidate that would want to get involved. So I don't know.
And, uh, well, you know, that's,
that's where a lot of our listeners can come in handy because they may have some
connections and maybe able to lend an ear to somebody and, and get,
get some attention drawn.
But instead of even calling, I want to get off to let other people on,
but instead of even calling to the, to your prosecutor, which is okay.
Why not have all these people in mass?
If it's possible to call some sort of higher up Politico?
Well,
you'd have to find out what higher up Politico might have an effect on the
common pleas court.
Perhaps even your country.
Oh, that's, that's an idea. Um, well, who is your congressman?
Where I live, his name is Kurt Weldon. Um,
and the Senator is Arlen Specter. In fact, I,
well that's a bit disappointing to hear. In fact, I met, uh,
I met Arlen Specter while I was at a 2,600 meeting in Philadelphia a couple of
years ago. He came to a 2,600 meeting.
He happened to be at the, at the 30th street station in Philadelphia,
right? When we were, he was traveling from Philadelphia back to Washington.
He just happened to be traveling at that time. He was just standing up.
He was just standing a few feet away from our group there at the 2,600 meeting.
So I met him at a 2,600 meeting.
That's something. And by, but in just closing,
doesn't it seem rather odd that as the constitution bill of rights get trashed,
that we seem to becoming more like our, our cold war enemy.
Well, it's one of the things I realized is that all these constitutional
protections we have against illegal search and seizure and,
and freedom of the press and all that, all those things are,
are well and good and I think are, are very important.
But when people who are sworn to uphold the constitution,
um, subvert it and commit perjury and misrepresent the facts,
uh, then those safeguards are worthless.
And that's something I learned throughout this case.
That's a law enforcement officer is going to get up on the stand and commit
perjury and say, uh, I, uh,
I consented to give him a box of electronic parts when in fact they were seized
and confiscated according to police report. Um,
and the judge believes the, uh, the law enforcement officer, um,
the constitutional protections against the illegal search and seizures are
worthless. So, uh, I think the constitution is a, is a beautiful document.
I think it's extremely well-worded and I think it has the,
has the ability if it's enforced to protect us all.
But I don't think that's happening because, uh, it's just, uh,
of course just seem to be looking on the wayside and it's, it's,
it's very depressing.
Yeah, it definitely is. Well,
I think that our inspector and a Weldon ought to be contacted for good or for
bad. Okay. Good point. Good point. Thank you. Take care. Um,
you know, Bernie, one other thing, um,
I was thinking all the people in there and in persons around the country, uh,
who don't have access to the number of years that you have access to right now,
you know, and it's not doing you much good having all these people know about
your case. Imagine how,
how helpless they must feel not having anybody outside of a immediate friends
and family knowing what's going on with them.
I can get a hint to what they're feeling like.
And that's one of the reasons I try to help as many other inmates out as I can
while I'm here. Not only is it something for me to do,
but it's something satisfying I can do to, uh, to, to help other people,
which is something I've tried to do all my life. Frankly, uh, these, these guys,
a lot of them, uh, they don't have very good communication skills.
They don't know,
they don't know who their lawyer is because the court has appointed one and the
court hasn't bothered to tell them who their lawyer is. And it's just,
it's these people just get lost in the system and have no,
no outside resources. My outside resources are, are,
my personal outside researchers are pretty limited. Fortunately,
I have a few friends who has some contacts and that unfortunately I haven't
made a lot of, a lot of difference in the case from a standpoint of my time I've
spent in jail. I mean, and the time, the time I'll be serving in jail,
but it's helped my, my time feel less depressing knowing that there's people
out there to support me. So,
but there's a lot of people here who don't have any, uh,
any friends on the outside or family.
Let's try to squeeze in one more call.
And I apologize to everybody who's been calling in that we were just running out
of time. It's, it's a fascinating subject. We could spend hours on it,
but let's see if we can squeeze in one more. Good evening. You're on the air.
Hello. How are you doing? Hi. Um, hi. Is it possible to speak to the fellow?
That's cool. What's his name? Hello, Emmanuel. Uh,
you're on the air right now. Oh, I am. Yes. Go ahead. Okay. Well, what I'm, uh,
I have actually a question for him about, um, a phone number.
I have somebody that has offered money for my phone number and I don't know how
I would go about doing that, whether or not it's legal or offered money.
Oh, you mean you have a good phone number and someone else wants it from you?
Yeah. Well, it's really, it's not in the same area. So, um,
to run the lines and to do everything, I'm not really sure if it's,
if it's possible. Uh, well, if somebody wants to buy your phone number,
that's their headache. You know, if they, uh, tell them, you know,
if you want to sell the number, say, okay, here it is. Give me the money,
your number. I'll change my number to something else. And you know,
it's, it's their problem from then on.
But, um, when I spoke to the phone company,
they said that they had to actually connect lines to
transfer it from the Upper West Side all the way downtown.
Well, again, again, that should not be your problem.
That should be the problem of the, uh, of the person who wants to buy a number.
I'd like to spend more time on this. Unfortunately, we're out of time. Uh,
Bernie, best of luck to you. Hopefully we'll hear from you next week.
And we'll visit you on Sunday. We'll, we'll be able to see firsthand what's going
on. Thanks. And, uh, keep those letters coming. Okay. All right.
And anybody wanting information on Bernie's case, uh,
and you have access to the internet, uh,
you can email BernieS at 2600.com where you can finger the same account.
You can also send him mail at that account, which will be forwarded to him.
We'll be back again next week for another exciting edition of off the hook next
Tuesday night from eight to nine housing notebook is up next.
This is WBAI in New York. Good night.
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