Off The Hook - 1996-03-19

[00:01.570 --> 00:02.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: ...Avenue and 3rd Avenue.
[00:02.850 --> 00:12.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: Or call us at 212-279-0707, extension 122, and let us know you're coming to the WBAI 99.5 FM website celebration.
[00:19.250 --> 00:19.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[00:19.830 --> 00:22.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're all going to be there tonight, and hopefully you can make it, too.
[00:23.150 --> 00:25.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's at the Ad Cafe down there in St. Mark's.
[00:25.430 --> 00:27.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right now, though, stay put, because Off the Hook is on.
[00:34.390 --> 00:38.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:39.530 --> 00:41.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:41.950 --> 00:43.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now I can't make a call.
[00:44.690 --> 00:46.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: It could be yet much worse.
[00:47.410 --> 00:49.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: But if there could, there would.
[00:49.310 --> 00:51.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: For me, we're bound for the best, it's best for worth.
[00:52.690 --> 00:54.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope that's understood.
[00:54.750 --> 00:55.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: For me, we're bound.
[02:00.290 --> 02:02.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: And all that dead air was for a reason.
[02:02.470 --> 02:06.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not because we're incompetent or anything like that, but we're trying to do two things at once here.
[02:06.690 --> 02:12.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: We just got an automated collect call from Bernie S., and I'm not sure if we messed it up or not.
[02:13.030 --> 02:13.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think we did.
[02:14.170 --> 02:15.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think we did big time.
[02:15.930 --> 02:17.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because I don't hear anything over there.
[02:19.270 --> 02:21.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, it doesn't appear like the call is still there.
[02:22.910 --> 02:23.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, that's too bad.
[02:24.150 --> 02:29.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: He just called in the very moment that we went on the air, and there was this automated thing that was coming over the telephone.
[02:30.250 --> 02:36.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we were trying to hit the right button at the right time, but, of course, it wouldn't accept our buttons until it finished its little spiel there.
[02:38.850 --> 02:40.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think there's anybody there.
[02:40.950 --> 02:43.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: I can't even hear my Touch-Tone, so I don't even know if...
[02:43.610 --> 02:44.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, let's try it now.
[02:44.390 --> 02:44.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is anybody there?
[02:47.870 --> 02:49.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, that's just...
[02:49.430 --> 02:51.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the sound of a phone line hanging up.
[02:51.610 --> 02:52.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we'll see if he calls back.
[02:52.890 --> 02:53.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: We know he's out there.
[02:53.590 --> 02:54.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: We know he's trying to reach us.
[02:54.650 --> 02:55.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: I can tell you this.
[02:55.450 --> 02:58.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: He got transferred this morning to a different prison.
[02:58.890 --> 02:59.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[02:59.370 --> 03:00.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: He got transferred someplace else.
[03:00.470 --> 03:01.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe this is him.
[03:01.110 --> 03:03.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll hear a different automated collect call thing here.
[03:04.770 --> 03:05.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello?
[03:29.710 --> 03:31.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that seems to have worked.
[03:31.490 --> 03:32.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bernie S., are you there?
[03:32.590 --> 03:35.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, I'm here, although it's very noisy in this facility.
[03:35.090 --> 03:37.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: So you're going to have to speak up as loud as you can.
[03:37.270 --> 03:39.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it sounds like they've moved you into an aluminum can or something.
[03:40.250 --> 03:40.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hold on a second.
[03:40.990 --> 03:43.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let me try to cover my ears up.
[03:43.230 --> 03:43.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: What was that?
[03:43.890 --> 03:45.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're in some kind of...
[03:45.130 --> 03:46.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: It sounds like a wind tunnel of some sort.
[03:46.750 --> 03:47.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, it's so noisy here.
[03:47.890 --> 03:48.490]  I can't hear it.
[03:48.710 --> 03:49.290]  Oh, here we go.
[03:49.410 --> 03:50.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Very hollow sound there.
[03:50.610 --> 03:50.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: There.
[03:50.930 --> 03:51.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: There.
[03:51.150 --> 03:51.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: How do I...
[03:51.990 --> 03:53.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: We hear you fine.
[03:53.230 --> 03:53.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can you hear us?
[03:53.910 --> 03:54.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can hear you now.
[03:54.690 --> 03:56.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's apparently a volume control on this phone now.
[03:56.630 --> 03:57.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now I can hear you better.
[03:57.470 --> 04:01.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, this is the first time in several weeks we've actually managed to get you on the air for a variety of reasons.
[04:02.010 --> 04:04.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: We fail to maintain contact.
[04:05.090 --> 04:07.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: But as of this morning, you were transferred to someplace else.
[04:07.910 --> 04:09.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have any idea why this was?
[04:09.470 --> 04:16.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was rudely awakened about 6.30 this morning by Bucks County sheriffs and told that I was coming with them.
[04:17.090 --> 04:20.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've been staying at Northampton County Prison in eastern Pennsylvania.
[04:22.410 --> 04:30.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: And for some unknown reason, these Bucks County sheriffs were here to pick me up and take me to Bucks County Prison, which is about an hour south of where I was.
[04:32.710 --> 04:35.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I had about five minutes to pack up all my belongings.
[04:36.530 --> 04:39.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the only thing, it turns out, I was allowed to bring with me was my legal papers.
[04:39.690 --> 04:45.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: All my books, personal facts, cosmetics, that kind of stuff, I was not allowed to bring with me.
[04:45.210 --> 04:48.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I guess they were just left to other inmates.
[04:48.810 --> 04:55.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sure they were ravenously grabbed by the other inmates.
[04:55.530 --> 05:01.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I'm here in this modern facility here in Doylestown, Pennsylvania.
[05:02.630 --> 05:05.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I have no sure idea of why I'm here.
[05:07.570 --> 05:11.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: I talked to one other inmate here who told me that the reason I was staying here was to be punished.
[05:11.490 --> 05:22.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: He said everybody comes here to be punished because this is one of the more medieval institutions in Pennsylvania.
[05:22.390 --> 05:23.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't see that.
[05:23.170 --> 05:24.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's more modern than the other place.
[05:24.250 --> 05:26.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: The place I was in was built in 1867.
[05:27.250 --> 05:28.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: How old is this place?
[05:28.490 --> 05:30.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Exactly 11 years old.
[05:33.470 --> 05:39.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's more modern, however, the guards seem to have a lot more anger they carry around with them.
[05:39.790 --> 05:41.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: They bark orders and insults at you.
[05:43.090 --> 05:46.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's very noisy here, and it's just much more rigid here than the other place.
[05:46.130 --> 05:51.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: The other place was in a rural area, and the guards were easier to get along with, even though the facility was a lot older.
[05:51.370 --> 05:56.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I would like to go back to where I was if I have a choice of prisons, but apparently I don't.
[05:56.510 --> 06:09.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: One of the sheriffs told me that I was part of a prisoner exchange, and that they were exchanging a prisoner from this prison with me at that prison.
[06:10.430 --> 06:12.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't know they did that within the prison system.
[06:12.290 --> 06:13.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: I thought that was only done between warring countries.
[06:14.250 --> 06:18.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I don't know why I was traded, but I was traded.
[06:19.570 --> 06:19.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[06:21.630 --> 06:24.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you have no idea why you were suddenly transferred to this prison, then?
[06:24.810 --> 06:29.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I got a glimpse of the paperwork, and it said, agreement made between wardens.
[06:30.130 --> 06:35.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know what this secret agreement was, but apparently I was traded for someone else.
[06:35.650 --> 06:45.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I asked the nurse, who took blood samples when I got here to make sure I didn't have AIDS or other diseases, and I asked her about the situation.
[06:46.170 --> 06:48.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: She said, oh, these wardens, they trade inmates like baseball cards.
[06:49.830 --> 06:51.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I've been traded.
[06:52.550 --> 06:55.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I don't even have a big multi-million dollar contract to say anything for it.
[06:56.150 --> 06:57.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, here I am.
[06:57.870 --> 07:08.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is a more stressful place, because I don't know anyone here, and it's closer to a metropolitan area, so we get more metropolitan-type people, so it seems less laid back than the other place.
[07:09.890 --> 07:12.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Coincidentally, though, I ran into a 2600 reader here as an inmate.
[07:13.390 --> 07:13.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, boy.
[07:14.070 --> 07:15.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess that's becoming more and more common.
[07:16.030 --> 07:16.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: What's that?
[07:16.670 --> 07:18.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's probably becoming more and more common in the prison system.
[07:18.930 --> 07:28.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: I ran into a gentleman here who goes by the name Mason Wall, and the first question, he walked up to me, he said, you must have been busted for computer hacking.
[07:28.970 --> 07:30.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: I said, well, what makes you think that?
[07:30.410 --> 07:31.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: He said, well, he just looked like he might have been.
[07:34.750 --> 07:38.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, he asked me if I'd read Bruce Sterling's book, The Hacker Crackdown.
[07:38.130 --> 07:39.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I said, well, yeah, how do you know about that book?
[07:39.970 --> 07:46.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it turns out this guy is just an information magnate like I am, and reads 2600 magazine and keeps up on hacking issues.
[07:46.370 --> 07:51.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if he's a hacker himself, but he seems knowledgeable about the whole concept.
[07:51.710 --> 08:03.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, that was pretty interesting to run into somebody here who actually knew who I was, had never met me before, but knew about me from reading and so forth, and knew of you and other people in the hacking community.
[08:06.350 --> 08:06.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[08:06.770 --> 08:09.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, now, what kind of prisoners are there?
[08:09.790 --> 08:11.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: What are most people in there for?
[08:12.030 --> 08:13.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, I'm having trouble hearing you.
[08:13.810 --> 08:14.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[08:14.330 --> 08:14.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can you hear me now?
[08:15.610 --> 08:16.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[08:16.230 --> 08:16.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[08:16.490 --> 08:19.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: What kinds of crimes are people being locked up for in this particular prison?
[08:19.790 --> 08:21.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is it basically the same thing as the last one?
[08:21.230 --> 08:32.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think the people here on this cell block, again, in what's called D tier or D block, I'm not locked up with the most serious offenders as I was in the other facilities.
[08:32.510 --> 08:37.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: The other facilities, remember, I was locked up with the 24 most dangerous or violent inmates, or those are the highest bail.
[08:38.190 --> 08:54.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: In this place, because my bail was a quarter of a million dollars, but since I've been sentenced now to six to 24 months in prison, it's about three months to go before I reach that minimum, six months, but apparently I'm not as risky a flight risk as I was before.
[08:54.850 --> 08:58.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I'm not housed with the most dangerous people here anymore.
[08:58.770 --> 09:00.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: So there's people in here who've...
[09:00.490 --> 09:00.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[09:00.910 --> 09:03.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: What do you say are the common offenses here?
[09:03.810 --> 09:05.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Violating protection from abuse orders.
[09:05.570 --> 09:05.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[09:06.010 --> 09:15.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: A lot of protection from abuse orders are violators, people who have been accused of beating their spouse, driving under attack while under the influence of alcohol or drugs,
[09:18.730 --> 09:19.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: burglary, burglary, everything.
[09:20.910 --> 09:22.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Any murderers in here?
[09:22.250 --> 09:22.510]  Yeah.
[09:23.070 --> 09:23.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: In here?
[09:23.910 --> 09:24.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[09:25.190 --> 09:26.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Come to the middle, I'll go back up.
[09:26.750 --> 09:27.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[09:27.130 --> 09:32.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently, murderers don't stay in this particular block very often to get transferred elsewhere after they're here for a few days.
[09:34.590 --> 09:44.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: This apparently, including an amazing wall here, this is a maximum security facility, but it doesn't look any more maximum than the places I've been in the past year or so.
[09:44.870 --> 09:46.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, maybe they're on maximum.
[09:47.190 --> 09:50.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that the prison press spokesperson you're talking to there?
[09:51.430 --> 09:52.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm really sorry.
[09:52.470 --> 09:52.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's so noisy here.
[09:52.950 --> 09:53.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: I can't hear you.
[09:55.050 --> 09:55.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: What was that?
[09:55.850 --> 09:58.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was wondering who you were speaking to that was giving you all this information.
[09:58.490 --> 09:59.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: You were wondering what?
[09:59.810 --> 10:01.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: Who you're speaking to to get all this information.
[10:01.910 --> 10:03.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm speaking to Mason Wall.
[10:03.430 --> 10:10.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's this person who's familiar with hacking from reading 2600 Magazine.
[10:10.590 --> 10:13.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he reads Wired Magazine, apparently, also.
[10:14.370 --> 10:15.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I won't hold that against him.
[10:17.270 --> 10:17.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[10:18.010 --> 10:20.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, is there any change in visitor policy, do you know?
[10:21.530 --> 10:21.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[10:22.650 --> 10:26.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: As I spoke with you last night, there was a change in the visiting policy in Northampton County Prison.
[10:27.050 --> 10:28.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: But now, of course, there's going to be another change.
[10:29.410 --> 10:32.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: It looks like the visits here are only once a week.
[10:32.930 --> 10:34.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they're not at very convenient times.
[10:35.190 --> 10:37.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I can talk to you about that offline sometime.
[10:37.870 --> 10:39.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, but...
[10:40.290 --> 10:45.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's much less flexible visiting policy than the other place, which is pretty inflexible in itself.
[10:45.930 --> 10:46.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[10:46.130 --> 10:53.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we just found out that they had terminated all visits that took place on Sundays, which is when we were going down to visit you, with no notice at all.
[10:53.350 --> 10:54.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: They just said, this is the last one.
[10:54.490 --> 10:55.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're not going to have any more of these.
[10:55.590 --> 10:55.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, that was...
[10:55.990 --> 11:01.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: ...schedule where, like, about once a month, it happens to land on a weekend, which is good.
[11:01.250 --> 11:03.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the good thing is the visits are...
[11:03.210 --> 11:05.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can have up to three people for up to two hours.
[11:05.470 --> 11:07.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, that's a plus.
[11:07.470 --> 11:10.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: But they're often at convenient times.
[11:11.690 --> 11:15.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Whether I'm going to be transferred back to the other facility, retraded back again or not, I'm not sure.
[11:16.790 --> 11:19.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, odds are, if you request that, you won't get it, right?
[11:19.850 --> 11:27.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: I requested that I not be transferred in the first place, but apparently my attorney did not contact the judges' chambers as we'd agreed.
[11:27.970 --> 11:29.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently, there was a miscommunication and so forth.
[11:29.850 --> 11:32.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, it may be that that's the reason I was transferred.
[11:33.450 --> 11:37.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently, the judge of my fencing thought that I had family in Bucks County, which I don't at all.
[11:38.810 --> 11:42.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, under that belief, maybe the judge thought he was doing me a favor by sending me here.
[11:42.310 --> 11:46.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Although, the paperwork said there was an agreement between wardens.
[11:46.970 --> 12:00.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it also had the term protective custody on there, which concerned me because the phrase protective custody has a very negative connotation in the prison culture.
[12:00.810 --> 12:17.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's usually reserved for inmates who are snitches or stool pigeons or inmates who have done something particularly heinous like sexual abuse of children, that sort of thing.
[12:17.450 --> 12:23.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Those inmates are generally put into protective custody so they don't get killed by other inmates.
[12:23.090 --> 12:25.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I don't fall into either of those categories, obviously.
[12:25.890 --> 12:28.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I don't know why it said protective custody on there.
[12:28.170 --> 12:36.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: I didn't want the word to get around that I was here for protective custody reasons because people would think I was one of those types of people and I'm not.
[12:37.050 --> 12:38.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, it's very strange.
[12:38.950 --> 12:40.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know really why I'm here.
[12:41.390 --> 12:45.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we never really understood why you were in prison in the first place, but that's a whole other issue.
[12:46.190 --> 12:49.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have an address that we could tell people to send you mail now?
[12:49.810 --> 12:50.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: A new address.
[12:53.150 --> 12:54.130]  I'm sorry, what did you say?
[12:54.210 --> 12:55.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have a new address that you can give us?
[12:56.070 --> 12:56.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, let me give that.
[12:56.650 --> 12:58.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just got it a few minutes ago from one of the guards.
[12:59.770 --> 13:09.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can now apparently receive books and magazines, which were prohibited at the other Northampton County prison, strangely enough.
[13:09.030 --> 13:16.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, this place might be a little more progressive in that they allow an image to read.
[13:16.770 --> 13:18.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: They'll consider that a dangerous activity.
[13:18.730 --> 13:40.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the address here is Bucks County Prison, 1730 South Easton Road, that's E-A-S-T-O-N Road, in Doylestown, D-O-Y-L-E-S-T-O-W-N-P-A, 18901.
[13:41.210 --> 13:54.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you should put somewhere on the envelope, we'll package, attention, Ed Cummings, D-19, D-I-S-T-O-W-N-P-A, 18901.
[13:54.830 --> 13:58.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: If there's something to read, I'd appreciate it a lot, because it's very boring in this place.
[13:58.990 --> 14:09.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: All I have to read is the Inmate Regulations Handbook that was given to me when I came in, and an interesting book called Inmates and Officers, Aids and Prisons, The Facts.
[14:10.410 --> 14:13.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's a lot of advice in here how not to get aids in prison.
[14:18.730 --> 14:21.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yeah, not being in prison is one good way.
[14:22.150 --> 14:24.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's so noisy here, it's terrible.
[14:24.210 --> 14:25.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to have to repeat yourself.
[14:26.110 --> 14:31.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, now, let me ask, is there a chance that you'll get better health care where you are now, because as we know, you weren't getting...
[14:31.690 --> 14:31.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're going to get better what?
[14:31.950 --> 14:35.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: A better health care, because as we know, you weren't getting any treatment whatsoever.
[14:35.670 --> 14:36.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently there is.
[14:36.310 --> 14:40.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: The other place is very poorly managed from a health care standpoint.
[14:41.110 --> 14:42.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: They had a private company running a health...
[14:42.750 --> 14:45.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: medical care at the other facility.
[14:45.350 --> 14:45.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was a...
[14:45.850 --> 14:53.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: We only had nurses' aides there, and like once in a few days, a doctor would slap by if anybody was really, really sick.
[14:54.270 --> 15:00.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: This place apparently has several registered nurses, RNs, on staff, which is a positive.
[15:01.290 --> 15:03.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And also, they're nicer to look at, too, than the others.
[15:04.970 --> 15:06.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: So that means a lot when you're in here.
[15:07.250 --> 15:10.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: So that's a positive.
[15:10.930 --> 15:16.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: I asked about getting physical therapy on my elbow, which I was not permitted to receive.
[15:16.070 --> 15:30.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: I broke my elbow about a year ago and severely fractured and was receiving physical therapy three times a week before I was incarcerated, but denied that physical therapy in both the federal prison and the Northampton County prison and Delaware County prison where I was initially.
[15:31.350 --> 15:37.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: This place apparently can offer me that, but they seem very concerned that I didn't have health insurance anymore.
[15:37.510 --> 15:41.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently, they're reluctant to pay for this physical therapy.
[15:41.570 --> 15:42.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I'll see what I can do.
[15:42.830 --> 15:47.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: I hope I can get it, because I only have about half the use of my left arm because of the injury.
[15:47.910 --> 15:52.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'd like to get some of that back, but it's really up to seeing a physical therapist.
[15:54.830 --> 15:58.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, this is certainly interesting news.
[15:58.270 --> 16:01.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we never know what to expect next from this case, which has been going on now for over a year.
[16:02.590 --> 16:05.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: And hopefully, it looks like it'll be over sometime in June.
[16:05.590 --> 16:06.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that what we're looking at right now?
[16:06.590 --> 16:08.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I'm not holding my breath.
[16:08.310 --> 16:10.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: I saw this paperwork today.
[16:10.410 --> 16:15.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: It said that my official release date should be July 12th.
[16:15.430 --> 16:32.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: But that was apparently not considering 41 days of time served last year in a county facility for the initial charges that were filed against me last year in Pennsylvania, which were subsequently dropped when Secret Service decided to charge me with a new federal anti-hacking law.
[16:34.390 --> 16:38.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the judge at my sentencing, I believe he said I should receive credit for that time.
[16:39.210 --> 16:41.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I don't think the prison is aware of it yet.
[16:41.210 --> 16:45.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I spoke with my attorney today, who's trying to make sure that I get credit for that 41 days.
[16:45.230 --> 16:47.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I'm going to have to spend an extra 41 days here.
[16:49.070 --> 16:55.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: The earliest I could get out of here, if I get that 41 days of credit, would be May 30th, which I could deal with that.
[16:56.470 --> 17:09.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Since my sentence is a 6- to 24-month sentence, there's a possibility that I could be held here for the duration for all 24 months, which means I wouldn't get out of here until early 1998, which would be very depressing.
[17:10.330 --> 17:13.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: So it's really up to the state parole board.
[17:13.710 --> 17:23.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: And apparently they're very backed up with cases now because of an unfortunate incident last year where a Pennsylvania state parolee allegedly killed a New Jersey state trooper.
[17:23.110 --> 17:29.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And since then, the state parole board has been very reluctant to parole anyone on a minimum date, which had been the usual policy.
[17:29.550 --> 17:34.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: But since last August, when that tragedy occurred, no one has been released on a minimum date.
[17:34.850 --> 17:37.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: And people are staying here months and months longer than they expected.
[17:37.650 --> 17:38.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's just unbelievable.
[17:38.830 --> 17:39.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: It just keeps...
[17:40.250 --> 17:42.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Your luck keeps getting worse and worse every time we hear something.
[17:42.570 --> 17:49.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, even nonviolent inmates are apparently having their sentences extended by months because of this backlog.
[17:49.690 --> 17:54.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Pennsylvania state prisons are very overcrowded, are well over capacity.
[17:54.950 --> 17:57.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: You have people sleeping on the floors and the hallways, I hear.
[17:58.370 --> 17:59.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: But this is a county facility.
[18:00.030 --> 18:00.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: It doesn't appear to be...
[18:00.810 --> 18:04.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Although it seems to be filled to capacity, it doesn't seem to be filled over to capacity.
[18:04.290 --> 18:07.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: There were no empty cells when I got here except the one I was moved into.
[18:07.670 --> 18:10.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: I am now rooming with another inmate at Northampton County Prison.
[18:10.770 --> 18:12.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: I had a 5x8 cell to myself.
[18:12.850 --> 18:15.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: This cell is a bit larger, but there's bunk beds in it.
[18:15.770 --> 18:17.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: And unfortunately, he doesn't speak English.
[18:18.470 --> 18:19.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's right.
[18:20.090 --> 18:33.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, speaking of the sentencing, though, you were telling me the other night about how somebody else was sentenced to, I think it was 3 months to 20 or something like that, for a much, let's just say, a much different crime than yours.
[18:34.570 --> 18:36.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, just a few weeks before I was...
[18:37.590 --> 18:41.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Excuse me, I'm still not over this prison flu that I picked up here over a month ago.
[18:43.610 --> 18:59.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, just truly, before I was sentenced, I looked at the local newspaper in eastern Pennsylvania to see what comparable sentences were being handed out to other people and kind of get an idea, judge an idea of what I might get based on these other sentences.
[19:00.270 --> 19:16.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: And one individual who was convicted of aggravated assault who admitted to repeatedly stabbing someone and threatening to shoot him was sentenced to 3 to 23 months in county prison.
[19:16.810 --> 19:21.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: And other charges were dropped against him, such as attempted murder, things like that.
[19:21.910 --> 19:22.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: They were dropped for some reason.
[19:23.150 --> 19:25.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: So he got 23... 3 to 23 months.
[19:26.330 --> 19:28.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: So he could be out in 3 months.
[19:29.250 --> 19:32.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he repeatedly stabbed someone and threatened to shoot them.
[19:32.490 --> 19:43.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: I finally concluded that I would have been much better off if I had done something like stab somebody than just possessed commonly available hardware or software because they had gotten a lesser sentence.
[19:43.970 --> 19:45.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, go figure.
[19:45.490 --> 19:56.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't understand it, but it seems to me the fact that the Secret Service has been pushing this prosecution beyond the bounds of any reason.
[19:56.970 --> 20:03.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I mean, it just goes to show when you have the Secret Service acting against you, it sure means a lot to a lot of local courts.
[20:03.550 --> 20:07.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Before I get into something else that's happening, let me just ask, is there a limit on this phone call?
[20:09.270 --> 20:10.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: There doesn't seem to be a 15-minute limit.
[20:10.850 --> 20:11.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know if there is?
[20:11.530 --> 20:13.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, actually, these calls are not a...
[20:13.090 --> 20:15.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: don't seem to be limited to any amount of time.
[20:15.090 --> 20:15.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, that's good.
[20:15.930 --> 20:16.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's good, then.
[20:16.890 --> 20:18.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: If we do get cut off, I'll try to call back.
[20:18.670 --> 20:20.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, but it did have that little warning about 3-way.
[20:21.010 --> 20:23.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm just worried if we start taking calls, that might be a problem.
[20:23.730 --> 20:24.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you can try it.
[20:24.650 --> 20:32.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not sure if SS7 transfers the signal that a 3-way call has been connected to the other end.
[20:32.330 --> 20:33.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I guess this is one way to find out.
[20:34.210 --> 20:34.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's find out.
[20:35.070 --> 20:36.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, well, we'll find out in a couple of minutes.
[20:36.450 --> 20:43.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Our phone number is 212-279-3400 if anybody has any questions, comments, or, you know, things on other subjects as well.
[20:43.590 --> 20:45.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're not just talking about this tonight.
[20:45.430 --> 20:47.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're just updating people on the subject.
[20:47.550 --> 20:53.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: But as far as the Secret Service happenings, we mentioned our website last week.
[20:53.630 --> 20:57.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, if you come down to the Ad Cafe after the show tonight, you'll have a chance to see it.
[20:57.830 --> 20:59.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that way you don't have to actually do it yourself.
[20:59.390 --> 21:01.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can actually, you know, see from a distance.
[21:01.610 --> 21:10.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: But over, I believe it's over 7,000 people now, over 8,000 people have accessed the Secret Service website at www.2600.com.
[21:10.890 --> 21:15.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: And basically what we've done there is we've put all the information that Bernie S.
[21:16.450 --> 21:20.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: was accused of having, which proved that he was such a dangerous individual.
[21:21.090 --> 21:28.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Things like a list of offices, a list of frequencies, a list of code names, various things like that that are available publicly.
[21:28.170 --> 21:35.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, we had some interesting press coverage over the past week, including an article in Newsday where there was a comment from the Secret Service.
[21:36.090 --> 21:37.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, it started off through the Secret Service.
[21:38.170 --> 21:44.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Edward Cummings is a law-breaking phone hacker who has pleaded guilty to possession of illegal telephone devices and tampering with evidence and deserves to be imprisoned.
[21:46.030 --> 21:53.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, when they were contacted about the website, they said that none of the material on it is secret or illegal.
[21:53.490 --> 21:56.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is according to Ernest Kuhn, the head of the Philadelphia office of the Secret Service.
[21:57.410 --> 22:00.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: He said secret service frequencies are publicly available.
[22:00.510 --> 22:14.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, this is fascinating that they would say this because at every hearing that I've witnessed and at every hearing that you've been at, they have used that as the primary evidence as to why you are a dangerous person because you possessed this information.
[22:14.790 --> 22:25.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, Tom Varney even said, the Secret Service agent whose job it is to persecute you, he even said that the frequencies that you had were restricted frequencies.
[22:25.350 --> 22:34.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, what we are going to do is we are obtaining the court transcripts and we're going to line those up side by side with what this guy said and we're going to ask them, who is right here?
[22:34.950 --> 22:36.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which one of you is lying?
[22:36.330 --> 22:38.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because one of you is either incompetent or you're lying.
[22:38.850 --> 22:39.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which is it?
[22:39.610 --> 22:43.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, if somebody in jail now because of this, we'd like to know what your policy is.
[22:43.790 --> 22:46.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are the frequencies restricted or are they public?
[22:46.630 --> 22:48.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, just give us a straight answer.
[22:48.750 --> 22:56.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it is interesting because that was the first thing that this guy always brought up when he was trying to discredit my character that I had this list of...
[22:56.070 --> 23:19.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: I remember him first starting out with his litany of harmful information that I had which justified him calling me dangerous that I had codenames used by the Secret Service for protecting the President and restricted radio frequencies used by the Secret Service for protecting the President which were simply magazine articles in Monitoring Times Magazine which I've subscribed to for the past 15
[23:19.130 --> 23:31.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: years, I think, since it came out and is available in many books that it could be purchased from various companies and most bookstores sell books with scanner users where they can program these frequencies and listen to them.
[23:31.490 --> 23:45.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: What's also interesting is that if the Secret Service is so concerned about people having these frequencies which are so publicly available they have the technology and they have the equipment and they do use this equipment to encrypt their conversations over these frequencies.
[23:45.810 --> 24:01.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: So even if you have these frequencies they don't say anything I would think that they wouldn't be stupid enough to say anything sensitive over the open frequencies and we do use their encryption technology to talk about the secure things like protecting the President and I think that stuff should be secure.
[24:01.410 --> 24:06.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think that people should be able to listen to the stuff that's truly important to protecting the President and I think that is risky.
[24:07.190 --> 24:12.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: If the chance exists though that they have trouble with that you can always call us and ask us how to use it and we'll be happy to help them.
[24:13.710 --> 24:14.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: We will, really.
[24:15.930 --> 24:17.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, this is...
[24:18.510 --> 24:19.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's see.
[24:19.190 --> 24:39.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have some more information we've been getting all kinds of listener and reader feedback to the website all kinds of mail people contributing bits of information corrections things like that so that's really kind of neat if you want to contribute anything the address the email address is secret s s-e-c-r-e-t-s at 2600.com and that's if you want to update the site at all and of course if you want
[24:39.710 --> 24:46.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: to look at the site www.2600.com here's one piece of mail we got I can attribute a U.S.
[24:46.250 --> 24:49.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: plane crash in Carrollton, Georgia last year to evil in the U.S.
[24:50.030 --> 24:55.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Secret Service and furnish written proof this is part of the divine curse on the infidel U.S.S.S.S.S.
[24:55.550 --> 25:19.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: well that's just one example of the many bits of information that we're getting and we look into them all because they all tell a story of some sort I read there was a local newspaper article that's covering my sentencing hearing that stated that the Secret Service claimed that I had sent an electronic mail to Hillary Clinton and to President Clinton while I was in federal prison last year which I
[25:19.450 --> 25:30.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: thought was pretty interesting because they didn't have any access to computers or unmonited phone lines Well, Tom Barney was starting to say something like that at your last hearing.
[25:30.470 --> 25:32.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: He said that the President of the United States got a letter.
[25:33.210 --> 25:39.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know how you could be responsible for that or how you could even be connected to that in any way if somebody sent a letter.
[25:39.550 --> 25:45.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: I thought it was unusual because I'd never sent any electronic mail to either the President or his wife in my life.
[25:46.510 --> 25:51.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently they were saying that I was somehow responsible for other people sending electronic mail to them.
[25:51.510 --> 25:52.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: He didn't say what this mail consisted of.
[25:53.050 --> 25:56.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was probably pretty mundane.
[25:56.470 --> 26:04.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the man tended to try to phrase things in so ominous tones that it sounded like it was dangerous without it really being dangerous.
[26:05.150 --> 26:10.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, to the judge's credit, I think he dismissed most of what the Secret Service was saying on that level.
[26:11.070 --> 26:15.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, I don't think he understood the technical aspects of your case, which is why you're still locked up now.
[26:15.650 --> 26:35.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: The biggest misconception that seems to go unnoticed in all these court hearings was that the judge repeatedly stated that I had software that could have allowed me to steal cellular telephone service from other people.
[26:35.810 --> 26:37.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: But one, I've never done that in my life.
[26:37.390 --> 26:38.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: I have no interest in doing that.
[26:38.590 --> 26:59.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: The software I had allowed people to clone or program extensions of their own cellular phones in no way enabled anyone to obtain or steal other people's electronic serial numbers or mobile identification numbers, which is a crucial thing if somebody were intending to commit fraud.
[26:59.170 --> 27:05.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: I didn't possess any electronic serial numbers or mobile telephone numbers that were capable of being used fraudulently.
[27:06.170 --> 27:12.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: And none of the equipment I had was programmed with any numbers that could have been used illegally.
[27:12.730 --> 27:16.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yet this software is being bandied about as something that's very evil.
[27:16.870 --> 27:19.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: And in fact, it can't in and of itself be used illegally.
[27:20.070 --> 27:25.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I'm concerned about other types of software which might be put on this list.
[27:27.330 --> 27:29.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Almost anything could be put on the list.
[27:30.670 --> 27:31.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[27:31.230 --> 27:36.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Almost anything could be put on the list depending on what the agenda is of the people who are prosecuting you.
[27:36.810 --> 27:43.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: And in this particular case, the agenda seems to have been to protect phone companies and send a chilling message to the rest of us.
[27:43.910 --> 27:48.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, we've gotten the message, but it's not really going to meet with the reaction they expected.
[27:50.290 --> 27:53.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Lots and lots of people have found out about this, and they're angry.
[27:53.490 --> 27:55.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: They want to know why things like this can happen in this country.
[27:55.870 --> 28:04.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: After all, we had somebody in Kentucky who was accused of something even greater than what you were accused of, actually selling a device which could clone phones.
[28:04.790 --> 28:06.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: But there are legitimate purposes for such devices.
[28:07.230 --> 28:10.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: He fought the actual statute.
[28:10.890 --> 28:16.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: He fought the... he pleaded not guilty to violating that particular law, and a jury found him not guilty.
[28:16.530 --> 28:22.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he was guilty of... he was accused, rather, of even more than what you were accused of.
[28:22.170 --> 28:27.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: So he could have been found guilty of much more, but he fought it, and he was found not guilty, and he is not in prison right now.
[28:27.670 --> 28:31.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's a very interesting fact that needs to be brought up quite a bit.
[28:32.250 --> 28:33.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we're going to take some phone calls.
[28:33.530 --> 28:35.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[28:35.710 --> 28:39.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: First, before we start, let me just say I'm aware of certain things that are going on out there.
[28:39.850 --> 28:41.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: People have stopped me in the street today.
[28:41.890 --> 28:43.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, they don't even say hello anymore.
[28:43.130 --> 28:44.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: They just say, hey, what's up with the phone bills?
[28:45.170 --> 28:50.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, I'm always happy to talk about these kind of things, but, you know, I'm not the person responsible.
[28:50.190 --> 28:51.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: So don't be angry at me.
[28:51.270 --> 28:51.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't do it.
[28:52.070 --> 28:52.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had nothing to do with this.
[28:53.510 --> 28:56.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is something that sort of caught a lot of us by surprise, okay?
[28:56.990 --> 28:58.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't even know about it last week.
[28:58.450 --> 28:59.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: It just started happening this week.
[28:59.870 --> 29:07.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's the deal with NYNEX and their, well, I mean, you've seen the commercials where they basically tell you to, you know, don't think about it.
[29:07.370 --> 29:08.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Just stay with us, okay?
[29:08.470 --> 29:09.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: You'll be happy if you stay with us.
[29:09.790 --> 29:12.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: We can, you know, make things easier on you.
[29:12.490 --> 29:15.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: And don't listen to those other companies when it comes to regional calling.
[29:15.750 --> 29:16.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, fine, whatever.
[29:17.130 --> 29:24.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: But now it turns out that they're sort of making it a bit more difficult for you to stay with those other companies.
[29:25.290 --> 29:28.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've heard all kinds of reports from people over the past few days that they're getting their phone bills.
[29:28.910 --> 29:31.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: And lo and behold, the long-distance portions are missing.
[29:31.550 --> 29:33.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are no long-distance portions on the phone bills anymore.
[29:33.990 --> 29:37.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: And apparently what's happening is that NYNEX...
[29:37.130 --> 29:38.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm not sure if this is true.
[29:38.630 --> 29:42.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I'm not sure what the official policy is because I have not seen any releases on this at all.
[29:43.070 --> 29:48.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: But apparently NYNEX has stopped acting as the billing agent for the long-distance companies.
[29:48.590 --> 29:53.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And what that means is that you'll get a separate phone bill for every single long-distance company that you use.
[29:53.630 --> 30:03.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that means a minimum of two bills for the same phone number, Assuming you make any long-distance calls at all, to... I mean, I don't even want to think about how many phone bills you could be getting now for the same phone number.
[30:03.710 --> 30:05.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's pretty incredible.
[30:05.890 --> 30:10.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: But that's part of the progress, I guess, we're engaged in right now.
[30:10.930 --> 30:18.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that's really all we know right now, that NYNEX is sort of changing things a little bit.
[30:19.010 --> 30:24.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: We can try and get an operator on the phone and ask them if there's any truth to this.
[30:24.350 --> 30:26.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, of course, if we do that, Bernie, we'll lose you.
[30:26.350 --> 30:31.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: So let's take some phone calls first and see if maybe any of our listeners can shed some light on this.
[30:32.070 --> 30:42.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, there's also the chance, as soon as we connect to the other listeners out there, that, you know, we might lose you right away.
[30:43.790 --> 30:45.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're aware of that risk, are you not?
[30:46.110 --> 30:50.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so we're going into this willfully and without regret.
[30:50.890 --> 30:54.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if we don't hear from you again tonight, Bernie, we will hear from you next week.
[30:54.670 --> 30:56.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: But let's hope that you stay on, okay?
[30:57.750 --> 30:58.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, here we go.
[30:58.830 --> 30:59.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[31:00.390 --> 31:00.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[31:01.170 --> 31:01.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: How are you doing?
[31:01.810 --> 31:02.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[31:02.350 --> 31:09.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well, I'm okay, but I just feel like, you know, tears come to my eyes every time I hear about Bernie.
[31:09.970 --> 31:10.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is he still there?
[31:11.050 --> 31:11.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm here.
[31:11.950 --> 31:12.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.
[31:12.390 --> 31:13.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wasn't cut off.
[31:13.330 --> 31:13.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[31:13.970 --> 31:14.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's great.
[31:14.410 --> 31:17.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I was wondering two things, Bernie.
[31:18.090 --> 31:22.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, number one, last week, the nurses wouldn't even look at you, but are you...
[31:22.350 --> 31:25.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Can you speak a little more slowly and a little louder?
[31:25.710 --> 31:25.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[31:25.890 --> 31:27.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's so noisy here, I can barely hear you.
[31:27.470 --> 31:27.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[31:28.150 --> 31:31.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are you allowed to get vitamins sent to you?
[31:31.890 --> 31:33.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can I send vitamins?
[31:33.110 --> 31:34.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because they're not medication.
[31:35.190 --> 31:38.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I would, it would seem logical that I would be able to receive them.
[31:38.710 --> 31:42.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unfortunately, um, they're not allowed in here.
[31:42.170 --> 31:47.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently, uh, there's a policy of not accepting any, anything that can be ingested.
[31:47.570 --> 31:50.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not even allowed to receive postage stamps from people.
[31:50.890 --> 31:51.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh.
[31:51.690 --> 32:06.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, what they, apparently the, uh, the, my keepers seem, or captors, rather, seem to think that people could put, uh, put drugs in, in vitamins and, you know, they could put drops of LSD on a vitamin tablet or something along those lines.
[32:06.910 --> 32:07.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[32:07.030 --> 32:08.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they're not taking any chances.
[32:08.370 --> 32:10.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: Plus, there's probably a profit incentive, too.
[32:11.190 --> 32:11.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[32:11.790 --> 32:15.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, they're, they do sell these things in the prison commissary, assuming people have money.
[32:16.190 --> 32:16.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh.
[32:16.590 --> 32:22.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, at, at pretty exorbitant prices, they sell, uh, pretty poor vitamins.
[32:22.430 --> 32:25.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, you know, you have, you have a captive market here, you could say.
[32:26.130 --> 32:29.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, they, they, they stand to make some money by selling all this stuff to the inmates.
[32:29.650 --> 32:34.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they'd rather, uh, sell it to them themselves and have more control over it than allow other people to send things in.
[32:34.410 --> 32:35.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I, it's a valid concern.
[32:35.590 --> 32:37.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can see them wanting to keep drugs from being sent in.
[32:37.910 --> 32:39.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, I understand.
[32:39.210 --> 32:48.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, I mean, if you, if you can't get, if they're not giving you proper medication, I just thought it would be that if I even sent it, uh, to, to, uh, to them, sealed.
[32:48.710 --> 32:51.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: But then I wouldn't trust what they would then do, so.
[32:51.630 --> 33:01.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, anyway, if, if you really want to send any vitamins, what you could do, and I'm, I'm, I'm not soliciting money from anyone, but if, if, if it's something you want to do... Yes.
[33:01.370 --> 33:03.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, you can send a money order... Yes.
[33:03.430 --> 33:07.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it has to be a postal money order to that address with my name on it.
[33:07.270 --> 33:08.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I, I can certainly...
[33:08.710 --> 33:12.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then that would be put in my commissary account with which I could buy vitamins.
[33:12.410 --> 33:13.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: That was another question I had.
[33:13.510 --> 33:16.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Can I, I'm, I'm, I'm, don't misunderstand me.
[33:16.430 --> 33:17.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not asking anyone to send me money.
[33:17.910 --> 33:20.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: I, I know, I know, I know.
[33:20.210 --> 33:21.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've, I've known various, uh, people.
[33:22.030 --> 33:26.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: And my sister was, uh, in, uh, well, I wouldn't say, but in a similar situation.
[33:26.530 --> 33:30.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: They took all of her equipment away, and I had an account set up for her.
[33:30.410 --> 33:32.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: They took her computer away from her, and, yeah.
[33:33.030 --> 33:35.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: She had recipes on her computer.
[33:35.810 --> 33:37.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, uh, I'll let other listeners go.
[33:37.670 --> 33:39.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: I had one, one other question.
[33:39.390 --> 33:43.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, your lawyer is, who, who's your, you have a lawyer doing anything for you?
[33:44.170 --> 33:44.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, I do.
[33:45.470 --> 33:55.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unfortunately, my case, I started out with a, with a, with a, a lawyer who was pretty inept and had convinced me that he was familiar with how federal courts worked.
[33:55.190 --> 33:58.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it turns out he had little or no experience in federal courts.
[33:58.710 --> 34:04.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: So my, my, my case became pretty far, far advanced before I realized this guy was a real bozo.
[34:05.370 --> 34:06.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, I won't name him on the air.
[34:07.110 --> 34:09.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I, I finally got a very good attorney after that.
[34:10.010 --> 34:15.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, but it was a problem getting, uh, getting the funding to, uh, to retain him.
[34:15.190 --> 34:17.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Finally, uh, he agreed to take a lesser fee.
[34:17.410 --> 34:18.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he's a, he's a very good attorney.
[34:19.090 --> 34:21.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: His name's Kenneth Trujillo in Philadelphia.
[34:21.350 --> 34:23.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's a former federal prosecutor himself.
[34:23.450 --> 34:26.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: But a lot of this stuff is really out of his hands.
[34:26.350 --> 34:31.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: What the, uh, what the prisons deal with me and what, uh, you're really up to the mercy of the judges here.
[34:31.150 --> 34:37.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, his, his strategy in my case was to advise me to leave guilty to the charges.
[34:37.010 --> 34:38.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: I, I know, yes.
[34:38.230 --> 34:39.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Investing the hardware and software.
[34:39.890 --> 34:43.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was never charged with using any of this stuff illegally, which is ironic.
[34:43.390 --> 34:45.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: I wasn't charged with committing any fraud.
[34:45.590 --> 34:51.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was just charged with having stuff that's commonly available at any radio shack store or a global over the Internet.
[34:51.870 --> 34:58.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, and with the intent of the fraud, and the government's definition of intent is just simply knowing that it can be used fraudulently.
[34:59.410 --> 35:01.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I didn't think that was a fair law.
[35:01.390 --> 35:02.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: My attorney didn't think so either.
[35:02.830 --> 35:18.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Having, being the former federal prosecutor himself, he thought my chances of, of going before a jury would not be good because the jury's job is not to decide whether the law itself is fair or not, but to find whether I'm guilty of the letter of the law or not.
[35:18.590 --> 35:19.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I was.
[35:19.190 --> 35:21.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: I had this hardware and software and didn't deny it.
[35:21.610 --> 35:27.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, in fact, the hardware and software, there was not, no, even, not even a law making it illegal to possess this stuff a few weeks before I was charged with it.
[35:27.890 --> 35:30.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a brand new, the first person in the country charged with this crazy law.
[35:30.730 --> 35:45.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, my attorney argued that I should make a special type of plea that he arranged with the government, called the Zoodik plea, which would allow me to withdraw my guilty plea to challenge, to appeal and challenge the unconstitutional vagueness of this new statute.
[35:46.150 --> 35:46.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[35:46.370 --> 35:48.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Constitution says that the law has to be specific.
[35:49.130 --> 35:49.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: It cannot be vague.
[35:50.130 --> 35:55.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, this law doesn't, doesn't define a lot of terms, like, uh, what a telecommunications instrument is.
[35:55.310 --> 36:01.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: It doesn't define the words modified or altered, or even a phrase unauthorized use or unauthorized access.
[36:01.490 --> 36:04.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: It doesn't define who, who does the authorize.
[36:04.090 --> 36:04.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right, right.
[36:04.750 --> 36:17.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: All these things are up in the air, and, uh, it's such a vague statute that it can be applied so broadly to virtually anyone who has a computer, if the Secret Service desires to, that, uh, one, I would like very much to get this law turned over not only to reverse my own conviction,
[36:17.850 --> 36:21.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: but to prevent anybody else from going through this same nightmare that I had over the past year.
[36:21.890 --> 36:26.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, hopefully this federal appeal, which is going to be heard later this year, will be successful.
[36:26.710 --> 36:33.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: I won't get the year of my life back, or the $30,000 in legal fees, or all the trauma I've gone through, won't get that reversed.
[36:33.470 --> 36:36.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, um, I'll be very satisfied if this law gets repealed.
[36:36.490 --> 36:44.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, I'm not optimistic about what Congress may replace it with, but, uh, but I won't be, uh, I won't be branded a felon anymore, and I'll be allowed to vote.
[36:44.970 --> 36:47.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not allowed to vote anymore as a convicted felon.
[36:47.090 --> 36:47.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: I understand that.
[36:47.950 --> 36:49.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know what voting has to do with...
[36:49.290 --> 36:51.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: I, I, um, I understand all that.
[36:52.070 --> 37:03.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is this something you actively can be working on right now, or where it can be working on, or do you have to wait for your next, uh, parole's date or trial, you know, the next time you're up for to prevent the repeal?
[37:03.910 --> 37:06.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's the very disheartening aspect about all this.
[37:06.470 --> 37:11.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: The whole time I was in federal prison last year, it wasn't until the last few days when I, until I knew when I was going to finally get out.
[37:11.990 --> 37:15.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was this endless, how much longer is this going to go on?
[37:15.550 --> 37:17.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's the same thing happening here.
[37:17.050 --> 37:22.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was given a six to 24 month sentence, which the six months will be up in the end of May, ostensibly.
[37:23.270 --> 37:25.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, there's no guarantee it'll be over then.
[37:25.790 --> 37:27.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: I could be here until 1998.
[37:27.810 --> 37:29.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's all up to the state parole board.
[37:29.370 --> 37:32.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's very hard for you to fight this kind of a thing if, uh, if you're stuck in prison.
[37:32.970 --> 37:38.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, uh, obviously, uh, you getting out is, is, uh, is paramount as far as that particular struggle goes.
[37:38.970 --> 37:39.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: I want to thank you for the call.
[37:39.770 --> 37:41.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to move on to, uh, to another call.
[37:41.370 --> 37:43.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hopefully we won't lose Bernie when we hit this button here.
[37:44.930 --> 37:45.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, he's still there.
[37:46.010 --> 37:46.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're still there, right?
[37:46.670 --> 37:46.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm here.
[37:46.970 --> 37:47.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good.
[37:47.190 --> 37:47.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[37:47.450 --> 37:48.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's take another one.
[37:48.470 --> 37:48.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[37:49.050 --> 37:49.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[37:49.550 --> 37:49.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello?
[37:49.850 --> 37:50.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: How you doing?
[37:50.710 --> 37:51.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm on the air.
[37:51.250 --> 37:51.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, you are.
[37:53.070 --> 37:55.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, I'd like to talk about Bill Clinton's white bill.
[37:55.570 --> 37:56.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Have you ever heard of that?
[37:56.390 --> 37:57.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bill Clinton's white bill?
[37:58.670 --> 38:00.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I'm not sure I know what you mean.
[38:01.050 --> 38:02.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm, uh, copyright law.
[38:02.450 --> 38:02.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[38:03.650 --> 38:05.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, I read it in a wire a while ago.
[38:05.350 --> 38:07.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: What it's about is no singing the song in the shower.
[38:07.970 --> 38:10.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: That wouldn't be any violation of copyright laws.
[38:10.750 --> 38:11.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[38:11.890 --> 38:22.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, what this new law would be, would, it would be saying that doing things close to that, like typing a passage from a book into your computer and storing it in random access memory would be a violation of copyright laws.
[38:24.210 --> 38:26.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what, that's what the bill says now is what you're saying.
[38:26.230 --> 38:26.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, I read it.
[38:26.890 --> 38:28.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: One sec, I have the wire it out somewhere around here.
[38:28.890 --> 38:31.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to try to find it so I can tell you the date of it.
[38:31.570 --> 38:31.730]  Okay.
[38:32.010 --> 38:35.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, anyway, I just wanted to say, I think this is absolutely outrageous.
[38:36.010 --> 38:37.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I agree with you.
[38:37.850 --> 38:40.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure, I'm sure most people have used the systems on the Internet.
[38:40.730 --> 38:42.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sure you're going to write down something from a book to share with a friend.
[38:43.030 --> 38:43.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[38:43.510 --> 38:45.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: To show someone would be a violation of laws.
[38:46.310 --> 38:54.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Supposedly, he's doing this to get support for the voters in the next election from the big boys in commercial business.
[38:54.390 --> 38:57.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, I just wanted to say that.
[38:57.710 --> 39:03.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, it's as unrealistic as expecting people to pay thousands of dollars for a computer program, which can be copied very easily.
[39:04.190 --> 39:09.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, obviously, people are not in the position of being able to do things like that.
[39:09.110 --> 39:14.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: And what you're seeing are laws being passed that simply think of big business and don't think of individuals.
[39:14.770 --> 39:15.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: I know.
[39:16.250 --> 39:19.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's the copyright laws they have now, I think, are outrageous.
[39:20.170 --> 39:25.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: And do you have anything more in the law about the movie production, the patent about it?
[39:25.910 --> 39:28.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, now, you know, that was way back, right?
[39:28.490 --> 39:30.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was like 1900, 1910.
[39:30.570 --> 39:36.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: But basically, it was a consortium of the very early directors, Edwin S.
[39:36.710 --> 39:44.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Porter, Tom Edison, people like that, that got together and kind of produced a stranglehold on the industry.
[39:44.770 --> 39:47.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Saying that you have to register your films with us.
[39:47.770 --> 39:52.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: You cannot even shoot something unless you get permission from us.
[39:52.330 --> 39:57.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you certainly can't distribute it because we own all the projectors and all the movie houses and et cetera, et cetera.
[39:57.690 --> 39:59.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, it worked for a while.
[39:59.450 --> 40:04.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: There were a few rebels that went against the quote-unquote law back then.
[40:04.430 --> 40:10.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: But up until around 1917, it was really, really hard to make a film unless you were in with these people.
[40:11.210 --> 40:13.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: And eventually, you know, creative control won.
[40:13.510 --> 40:15.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that was sort of cast aside.
[40:15.610 --> 40:19.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's funny that nobody remembers that, you know, that little bit of history.
[40:19.490 --> 40:23.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because that's certainly a parallel to what's going on today in the computer industry.
[40:24.510 --> 40:27.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, I'd like to know, is Ed Cummings still there?
[40:27.550 --> 40:27.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[40:27.950 --> 40:28.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm still here.
[40:29.170 --> 40:31.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: Have you read Hackers by Stephen Levy?
[40:31.570 --> 40:32.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I read it several years ago.
[40:33.050 --> 40:33.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was a pretty good book.
[40:34.210 --> 40:36.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, because I got all these books flying around in.
[40:37.190 --> 40:39.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've met Stephen Levy on a few occasions, too.
[40:41.670 --> 40:43.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, you know, I found it an amusing book.
[40:43.850 --> 40:44.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why do you ask?
[40:45.010 --> 40:50.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know, because I'm stuck here in my room with tons of reading things that I've read several times.
[40:50.490 --> 40:52.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, you know, if you're stuck there without anything to do...
[40:52.830 --> 40:54.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, well, thanks anyway.
[40:55.390 --> 40:57.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you want to mail me a copy, it'd be great to read it again.
[40:57.790 --> 40:59.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think the last time I read it was about ten years ago.
[40:59.950 --> 41:07.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, sure, I imagine the other inmate here who's interested in hacking would love to read it as well.
[41:07.550 --> 41:08.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: It probably has.
[41:09.330 --> 41:13.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, you have the address, I guess, if you want to mail me a copy, and I think it's available in paperback.
[41:13.950 --> 41:14.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is it?
[41:14.690 --> 41:16.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: I have the original version.
[41:17.030 --> 41:22.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: I lost it a while ago when I was taking it from my library, and I paid for it, so I guess it's mine now, isn't it?
[41:23.090 --> 41:23.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I guess so.
[41:23.850 --> 41:24.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess you bought that.
[41:25.570 --> 41:27.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, yeah, that'd be very nice.
[41:27.230 --> 41:29.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: That'd be very helpful for Ed and for anyone else.
[41:29.710 --> 41:35.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: I want to say something to all the people who are just getting into hacking about viruses and everything.
[41:35.590 --> 41:42.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think these things, people are getting a really bad image of hackers for absolutely no reason at all.
[41:42.890 --> 41:56.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: A lot of people are running around there just destroying people's computers saying they're hackers without any knowledge of any hacker ethics at all, which I think it's really bad for the rest of us that just want to get great information.
[41:56.490 --> 41:57.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: I totally agree with that.
[41:57.570 --> 42:07.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: At 2600, we get all kinds of people that send us email and calls on the phone and things like that, thinking that they're hackers because they can figure out how to wipe out a system or completely cause mayhem.
[42:07.370 --> 42:09.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: And usually they just want quick answers.
[42:09.610 --> 42:11.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: They don't want to know how to do things.
[42:11.350 --> 42:13.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hacking is knowing how to do something.
[42:13.290 --> 42:19.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not just getting an answer from some shortcut someplace and then executing a file and saying, hey, that makes me a hacker.
[42:20.130 --> 42:21.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's nothing to do with it.
[42:22.070 --> 42:24.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: This makes you somebody impatient that just wants to cause damage.
[42:25.510 --> 42:25.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know.
[42:26.030 --> 42:35.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think the government would like to make the public believe that all hackers are criminals, where in fact, maybe some hackers are criminals, but the vast majority are not.
[42:35.630 --> 42:36.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're just curious people.
[42:37.650 --> 42:39.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: True hackers, they try to improve systems.
[42:39.690 --> 42:43.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: If they can find ripples and things, they help them so they're not there anymore.
[42:43.890 --> 42:50.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think probably a more accurate way of saying it is that while some hackers may be criminals, a lot of criminals want to be hackers.
[42:52.650 --> 42:54.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: That would be a good bumper sticker, wouldn't it?
[42:54.250 --> 42:54.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[42:55.450 --> 42:56.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't you print up some of those?
[42:56.970 --> 42:57.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think maybe I will.
[42:57.990 --> 43:00.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a bit wordy for a bumper sticker, but we'll see what we can do.
[43:02.210 --> 43:03.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: So anything else, caller?
[43:03.890 --> 43:05.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, that will be all.
[43:05.150 --> 43:05.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[43:05.670 --> 43:06.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for your call.
[43:06.550 --> 43:06.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, bye.
[43:07.110 --> 43:07.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Take care.
[43:08.810 --> 43:10.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes I think there's hope for the future.
[43:10.430 --> 43:10.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Who knows?
[43:11.770 --> 43:12.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[43:12.390 --> 43:12.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[43:13.890 --> 43:14.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, go ahead.
[43:15.050 --> 43:15.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[43:15.550 --> 43:18.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Manuel, I've been trying to get through to you for quite some time.
[43:18.410 --> 43:19.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you've succeeded.
[43:19.870 --> 43:23.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just need some advice and information.
[43:24.850 --> 43:27.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm a new person to the Internet.
[43:27.170 --> 43:46.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm going to be getting myself hooked up, and I'm looking for information and advice from someone who I trust, like you, on what are some good service providers to use, if you can recommend or suggest how to connect to the Internet, as far as what service providers might be of good value or provide good service,
[43:47.210 --> 43:47.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: et cetera.
[43:47.510 --> 43:49.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm in New Jersey, northern New Jersey.
[43:49.610 --> 43:49.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[43:51.090 --> 43:53.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know Panix has a dial-up in New Jersey.
[43:54.450 --> 43:55.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: You might...
[43:55.230 --> 43:57.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't have their number handy, but they're listed in the New York phone book.
[43:57.990 --> 43:59.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: P-A-N-I-X?
[43:59.150 --> 43:59.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[44:00.470 --> 44:01.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's one.
[44:01.910 --> 44:02.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Any others?
[44:03.210 --> 44:04.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess not.
[44:04.530 --> 44:09.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, no others come to mind at the top of our heads, but if we find others, we'll certainly let you know.
[44:10.690 --> 44:12.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: But that's, you know, one.
[44:12.930 --> 44:14.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: One of many, I'm sure.
[44:14.250 --> 44:15.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are lots of...
[44:15.170 --> 44:16.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: What makes them a good one?
[44:16.410 --> 44:19.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I like Panix because they're very competent.
[44:19.530 --> 44:30.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, whenever something happens, if their lights flicker for like a minute, they post it on a message of the day, and they tell you exactly what happened and how long it lasted and when it was fixed and why it happened and whose fault it was.
[44:30.430 --> 44:31.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I like that kind of accountability.
[44:32.370 --> 44:40.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's also the kind of system where you just get the feeling that the people running it know what they're doing, and also, I don't think I've ever had a system.
[44:40.730 --> 44:46.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: I hope this doesn't sound like a commercial because I use lots of different service providers, and this just happens to be, you know, one I'm talking about right now.
[44:46.830 --> 44:49.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: But Panix has a very fast connection to news.
[44:50.150 --> 44:54.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like, you type 10 to get into news, and wham-oh, right away you're there.
[44:54.510 --> 44:56.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, you're reading news from your particular news group.
[44:56.690 --> 44:59.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's what I hope to see all of the Internet become.
[44:59.330 --> 45:03.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: But usually it's about a two-minute wait, you know, because there's so many news groups to go through.
[45:04.190 --> 45:05.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, here's another one I just got.
[45:05.710 --> 45:08.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just got the Silicon Super Network Corporation.
[45:08.890 --> 45:10.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess that's SSN.
[45:11.530 --> 45:12.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you can reach them.
[45:13.090 --> 45:14.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is this their phone number or is this person's phone number?
[45:14.930 --> 45:17.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, okay, I think it's their number.
[45:18.210 --> 45:20.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: 201-461-7373.
[45:20.130 --> 45:20.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the voice number.
[45:22.930 --> 45:23.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: 461-7373.
[45:23.870 --> 45:25.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's one in New Jersey.
[45:25.390 --> 45:27.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: How do the prices range on these?
[45:27.310 --> 45:28.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't have information on that.
[45:29.110 --> 45:29.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[45:29.930 --> 45:30.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: But shop around.
[45:30.830 --> 45:32.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure you'll find lots of different ones.
[45:33.290 --> 45:33.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[45:33.890 --> 45:34.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[45:34.410 --> 45:34.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for calling.
[45:34.830 --> 45:38.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you have any further info like that, I'd appreciate it if you could pass it on over the air.
[45:38.490 --> 45:38.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[45:38.790 --> 45:43.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anybody else who calls in, I'm sure if they have information on northern New Jersey providers, they'll let us know.
[45:43.390 --> 45:44.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, okay, thanks for calling.
[45:45.190 --> 45:45.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks a lot.
[45:46.210 --> 45:46.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[45:47.010 --> 45:49.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, Bernie, you know, you still have to get you on the net.
[45:49.190 --> 45:53.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Obviously, people can write to you on the net, but, you know, you can't get on the net from where you are now.
[45:53.730 --> 45:54.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Once you get out, though...
[45:54.690 --> 46:06.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think there's a computer here, but actually, if somebody wanted to send me mail at BernieAsset2600.com, maybe you'd be kind enough to snail mail it to me.
[46:06.670 --> 46:06.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[46:07.830 --> 46:08.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, what...
[46:08.530 --> 46:19.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'd even be happy, if you or someone else has the time or wants to, has the inclination to take my handwritten replies and to, you know, type them in to a computer that I don't have access to, that'd be great.
[46:20.010 --> 46:24.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'd be glad to correspond with people on the net in that manner.
[46:25.050 --> 46:26.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sure, we could definitely do something like that.
[46:26.910 --> 46:32.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: But one thing I think which is important is that when you do get out, you have some way of communicating with people on the net.
[46:32.670 --> 46:38.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: So hopefully we can find a provider down in the Philadelphia area, which is where you're from, that will donate an account.
[46:38.950 --> 46:46.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe somebody has an old 286 or something lying around that they can free up and send down to Bernie so he can, you know, come back onto the net.
[46:46.970 --> 46:48.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, you've never really been on the net, have you?
[46:48.730 --> 46:49.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, on and off.
[46:51.110 --> 46:53.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: On using friends' accounts with their permission, that sort of thing.
[46:53.910 --> 47:00.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I haven't been on the Internet, obviously, for over a year because I've been in prison for the past year for the most part.
[47:00.830 --> 47:02.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I definitely want to get out.
[47:02.690 --> 47:06.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: A lot has changed since I got locked up in March of last year.
[47:06.790 --> 47:13.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, the Internet has become a much bigger thing than any of us imagined.
[47:13.290 --> 47:16.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there's a lot of words you can't use on the Internet anymore.
[47:16.890 --> 47:18.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you have to be very careful.
[47:18.030 --> 47:19.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can't use any cuss words.
[47:19.230 --> 47:23.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, they've made a few silly laws that are being challenged right now.
[47:25.030 --> 47:27.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: And don't even think about talking about abortion on the net.
[47:27.870 --> 47:30.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's a real negative thing.
[47:30.750 --> 47:35.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, there's all kinds of fighting about various things going on on the net.
[47:35.270 --> 47:40.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: But fortunately, the net itself is the forum that's being used to spread information around.
[47:40.670 --> 47:45.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And when you have a forum of that magnitude, I find that the individuals always win.
[47:45.870 --> 47:49.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, individual thought is always a lot more clever than corporate thought.
[47:49.670 --> 47:52.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: The publicity may have helped in my recent sentencing.
[47:52.910 --> 47:55.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: I feared that I might have gotten an even more severe sentence.
[47:55.510 --> 47:59.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Instead of 6 to 24 months, I could have gotten 12 to 24 months.
[47:59.850 --> 48:19.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I spoke with a county employee who told me he'd run into a county probation officer who told him, that the judge in my case, told the probation officer that he didn't think he could justify any more severe sentence because of all the news coverage that this case had generated.
[48:20.250 --> 48:22.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I was very heartened to hear that.
[48:22.350 --> 48:27.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was very concerned that all the publicity would actually hurt me and anger the Secret Service even more.
[48:27.710 --> 48:31.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I'm beginning to realize that the publicity may be more helpful than harmful.
[48:31.570 --> 48:33.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I hope it continues that way.
[48:33.170 --> 48:38.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I always thought publicity of a positive kind is a good thing.
[48:38.050 --> 48:44.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Even if they get some of the facts wrong, like the Newsday article listed you as 35 living in Redding, of which you're neither.
[48:45.950 --> 48:46.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Never been to Redding in my life.
[48:46.890 --> 48:47.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Never been to Redding in your life.
[48:47.930 --> 48:50.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know how they managed to have you a native of that particular town.
[48:50.330 --> 48:50.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: But that's okay.
[48:50.910 --> 48:52.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Those are little facts you expect newspapers to get wrong.
[48:53.090 --> 48:57.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't even know where they got that because Redding was never even mentioned in anything to do with my case at all.
[48:57.250 --> 49:02.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe this whole thing is a big misunderstanding and there's another Ed Cummings from Redding as a real evil person.
[49:03.170 --> 49:03.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know?
[49:04.150 --> 49:05.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll check that angle of it.
[49:05.850 --> 49:06.490]  Please do.
[49:06.670 --> 49:17.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: The other thing that I think really helped from publicity was that rather disturbing rumor going around the prison that you were a cop when you were first brought into the system.
[49:17.910 --> 49:26.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: And of course, when newspaper articles started showing up saying how you were unjustly put in prison and things like that, that got around to some of the inmates and they realized that, hey, this guy is a real, you know, bad person.
[49:27.450 --> 49:29.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that actually helped you in that particular situation.
[49:29.910 --> 49:40.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: They realized, or at least they believed I was one of them once they read that the Secret Service had labeled me as one step above a terrorist.
[49:40.550 --> 49:43.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: So then I was accepted with open arms.
[49:45.490 --> 49:47.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yes, they give you a wide berth at that particular...
[49:47.890 --> 49:48.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: which is fine, you know.
[49:48.770 --> 49:51.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what you have to do when you're in a situation like that.
[49:51.470 --> 49:53.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's see if we can fit in one or two more phone calls.
[49:54.090 --> 49:54.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[49:54.750 --> 49:54.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on.
[49:55.530 --> 49:55.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello?
[49:56.050 --> 49:56.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, go ahead.
[49:56.850 --> 49:57.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[49:57.390 --> 49:59.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have a question for...
[50:00.070 --> 50:04.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: actually some advice for Bernie and a question on online businesses.
[50:04.650 --> 50:05.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, go ahead.
[50:06.690 --> 50:07.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead.
[50:07.550 --> 50:07.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[50:09.510 --> 50:12.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, turn down your radio or you'll get very confused.
[50:12.910 --> 50:13.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, Bernie.
[50:13.770 --> 50:14.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes?
[50:15.410 --> 50:21.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: In your interest, the more people that can write directly to the warden you'll find very helpful.
[50:21.590 --> 50:26.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: I remember when some people were at the Metropolitan Correctional Institute.
[50:26.870 --> 50:36.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: There was a warden there who was probably trained at the Bastille during the French Revolution.
[50:36.970 --> 50:42.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: He was very harsh, very inhumane.
[50:43.070 --> 50:49.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: And when enough letters descended on the Institute, he changed his ways.
[50:50.610 --> 50:57.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: when they become aware that you're a prized prisoner, they tend to treat you a lot differently.
[50:57.670 --> 50:59.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Differently as in better or worse?
[50:59.970 --> 51:00.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: Better.
[51:00.710 --> 51:01.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, well, that's good.
[51:01.830 --> 51:02.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't even...
[51:02.410 --> 51:04.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: truly, I don't know the name of the warden of this prison.
[51:04.430 --> 51:05.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was just transferred here today.
[51:05.670 --> 51:06.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know who he is.
[51:06.910 --> 51:09.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, as soon as you can, please let people know.
[51:09.930 --> 51:14.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Honestly, I wouldn't want the warden to be bothered unless...
[51:14.070 --> 51:15.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, not bothered, but just...
[51:15.230 --> 51:17.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unless I saw I was being mistreated here, which really hasn't happened yet.
[51:17.950 --> 51:18.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've had guards.
[51:18.410 --> 51:18.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, okay.
[51:18.850 --> 51:22.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've had guards bark insults at me, but it wasn't a personal thing.
[51:22.150 --> 51:22.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: They do that to everybody.
[51:23.270 --> 51:24.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you've only been there for about 12 hours, though.
[51:25.330 --> 51:29.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not holding my breath that I'm not going to be mistreated, but the potential exists.
[51:29.870 --> 51:33.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: But if it happens, I'll make you folks aware of it.
[51:33.190 --> 51:36.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you want to contact the warden then, I think it's a good idea.
[51:36.510 --> 51:37.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Definitely, yeah.
[51:37.090 --> 51:41.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's no sense in aggravating the guy for something that hasn't occurred yet.
[51:41.570 --> 51:41.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: True.
[51:42.390 --> 51:42.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Agreed.
[51:42.810 --> 51:43.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's a good suggestion, now.
[51:44.070 --> 51:45.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, keep it in mind.
[51:45.810 --> 51:46.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: You had one other question?
[51:46.830 --> 51:48.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, about online businesses.
[51:48.850 --> 51:50.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you have any info on that?
[51:50.730 --> 51:54.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is the New York PC helpful in that area, or do you know anybody else?
[51:54.530 --> 51:56.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it depends what you're after.
[51:56.530 --> 51:57.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: What do you mean online business?
[51:57.990 --> 51:58.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: What was it you wanted to do?
[51:58.750 --> 51:59.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, basically, a service business.
[52:00.250 --> 52:11.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, there are people that do information research, provide services, whatever, sort of setting up a business that you would basically do online part-time at home.
[52:12.490 --> 52:14.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I mean, it's certainly okay.
[52:14.810 --> 52:16.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can certainly do things like that.
[52:16.810 --> 52:18.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you just looking for a place where you can get advice on how to do that?
[52:18.990 --> 52:19.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, exactly.
[52:19.990 --> 52:23.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think the New York Amateur PC Club, is that what you're referring to?
[52:24.050 --> 52:25.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's one source.
[52:25.850 --> 52:29.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: They'd be a good source for that.
[52:29.910 --> 52:30.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[52:30.770 --> 52:31.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good enough.
[52:31.630 --> 52:31.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[52:32.310 --> 52:33.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: Best of luck, Bernie.
[52:33.270 --> 52:33.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for calling.
[52:34.050 --> 52:34.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for calling.
[52:35.090 --> 52:35.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[52:36.330 --> 52:38.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, let's see if we can squeeze in another one.
[52:39.070 --> 52:39.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[52:39.630 --> 52:40.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[52:40.650 --> 52:41.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody there?
[52:42.010 --> 52:42.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're on the air.
[52:43.350 --> 52:44.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Am I on the air?
[52:44.130 --> 52:44.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, you are.
[52:45.790 --> 52:47.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to be on the air.
[52:47.270 --> 52:48.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, then, you got your wish.
[52:48.830 --> 52:49.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[52:49.430 --> 52:50.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[52:50.750 --> 52:51.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, hold on.
[52:51.610 --> 52:53.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just have to turn the radio lower, okay?
[52:53.450 --> 52:53.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[52:58.940 --> 53:01.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Just waiting for her to turn the radio down a little lower.
[53:01.500 --> 53:02.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, go ahead.
[53:02.460 --> 53:02.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[53:03.240 --> 53:03.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, Bernie.
[53:04.200 --> 53:04.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi.
[53:04.760 --> 53:05.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, everybody.
[53:05.760 --> 53:06.100]  Who's this?
[53:06.420 --> 53:07.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mary Lynn.
[53:07.200 --> 53:08.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: It doesn't matter who I am.
[53:08.280 --> 53:15.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was just thinking, when you befriend people in prison, maybe you might think twice before you say it.
[53:15.420 --> 53:15.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Can you speak up?
[53:16.080 --> 53:16.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: I can barely hear you.
[53:16.800 --> 53:16.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[53:17.460 --> 53:19.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Regarding your new friend in prison?
[53:19.820 --> 53:20.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[53:20.440 --> 53:20.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.
[53:20.860 --> 53:22.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just had a thought for whatever it's worth.
[53:24.120 --> 53:29.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe you ought not to be talking too much to him because maybe he's not quite the friend he might be.
[53:29.420 --> 53:32.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, you think he's like a plant of some sort?
[53:32.500 --> 53:34.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, if he walked up to you, maybe he is.
[53:34.520 --> 53:37.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, actually, that's been a concern of mine since this began.
[53:37.840 --> 53:44.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Especially in the buttock course, I was warned by other inmates to be aware of informants posing as other inmates.
[53:44.660 --> 53:45.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, well...
[53:45.240 --> 53:46.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he didn't really approach him.
[53:46.160 --> 53:48.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was standing next to him and it just sort of came up.
[53:50.100 --> 53:51.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Before I would...
[53:51.020 --> 53:55.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's really nothing incriminating I could say to hurt myself because...
[53:55.840 --> 53:59.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: I know, but you probably didn't do anything really to hurt yourself to get in there.
[54:00.020 --> 54:00.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's true.
[54:01.060 --> 54:07.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: The biggest concern that inmates have about informants in prison is that not that they'll be quoted but they'll be misquoted.
[54:07.860 --> 54:09.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, that's what I'm...
[54:09.000 --> 54:09.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know...
[54:09.860 --> 54:11.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: When somebody's looking for something, they find it.
[54:12.560 --> 54:13.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, not only that, but...
[54:13.960 --> 54:15.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: You watch Nowhere Man, don't you?
[54:15.320 --> 54:15.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: I can tell.
[54:16.400 --> 54:18.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, I just had a hard time with my boss today.
[54:18.600 --> 54:21.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm just trying to feel better about what...
[54:21.300 --> 54:22.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: I really appreciate the warning and advice.
[54:23.100 --> 54:23.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, for whatever...
[54:23.580 --> 54:25.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: If I were to talk in depth with this guy, I certainly would...
[54:25.660 --> 54:28.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: would make sure I see his credentials.
[54:29.420 --> 54:30.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would...
[54:30.220 --> 54:32.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would never even bother thinking about it.
[54:32.160 --> 54:32.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just wouldn't share.
[54:33.600 --> 54:34.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks a lot.
[54:34.340 --> 54:38.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, I mean, I would share myself as a loving friend but not as a...
[54:38.280 --> 54:40.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, the kind of thing that he might look for.
[54:40.540 --> 54:40.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you.
[54:41.040 --> 54:44.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently, this guy has many friends in New York who may be listening right now.
[54:44.340 --> 54:45.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: He goes by the name Mason Wall.
[54:47.020 --> 54:49.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, maybe he's a wonderful guy and a great friend.
[54:50.400 --> 54:50.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[54:51.040 --> 54:51.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[54:51.520 --> 54:52.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's a comedian also.
[54:53.300 --> 54:54.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I hope he keeps a sense of humor.
[54:54.920 --> 54:55.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good friendship.
[54:55.620 --> 54:55.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[54:56.100 --> 54:56.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[54:57.100 --> 54:57.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[54:57.400 --> 54:58.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for the call.
[54:58.360 --> 54:59.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks and good luck to you.
[54:59.720 --> 55:00.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Take care.
[55:00.160 --> 55:00.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bye.
[55:01.160 --> 55:01.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[55:02.360 --> 55:04.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to be right back right after this announcement.
[55:10.380 --> 55:19.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: WBAI's computer folks are having a website celebration on Tuesday, March 19th from 8.30 till midnight at the At Cafe on St. Mark's Place between 2nd Avenue and 3rd Avenue.
[55:20.100 --> 55:26.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: Come by and meet Emmanuel Goldstein, Phiber Optik, Dave Burstein, Jim Freund, and some of your other favorite WBAI voices.
[55:27.160 --> 55:36.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: There'll be continuous demonstrations of what's interesting on the net and we'd love it if you made a voluntary donation to the WBAI website but we won't turn you away if you're broke.
[55:36.760 --> 55:55.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: So come on by to the website celebration on Tuesday, March 19th from 8.30 till midnight at the At Cafe on St. Mark's Place between 2nd Avenue and 3rd Avenue or call us at 212-279-0707 extension 122 and let us know you're coming to the WBAI 99.5 FM website celebration.
[56:02.140 --> 56:03.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, that's tonight.
[56:03.900 --> 56:10.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's happening right now even as we speak and in fact, all of us are standing up right now and we're heading right down there.
[56:10.480 --> 56:19.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, if you want to have some fun, come and join us at the At Cafe because that's where we're all going to be and you can see the Secret Service website for yourself which we'll be connecting to.
[56:21.340 --> 56:23.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein for Bernie S.
[56:23.920 --> 56:24.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Say goodnight, Bernie.
[56:25.260 --> 56:25.780]  Goodnight, Bernie.
[56:26.060 --> 56:26.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Alright.
[56:26.720 --> 56:28.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we'll hopefully talk to you next week.
[56:29.820 --> 56:30.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Stay well.
[56:31.240 --> 56:34.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Alright, and we'll update people on your situation.
[56:34.700 --> 56:36.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll see you down at the At Cafe.
[56:36.020 --> 56:37.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be back again next week for another edition of Off the Hook.
[56:38.020 --> 56:38.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Goodnight.
[57:44.090 --> 57:52.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: As corporations have gotten more power, have rewritten the laws, have distorted legal process.
[57:52.750 --> 57:53.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: and the law is�onomic法.