Off The Hook - 1996-04-02

[00:04.030 --> 00:13.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: ...pattern of communication was intercepted, and even then, electronic gumshoes only looked at about 80 characters surrounding the telltales to see if the hacker was a source of the communication.
[00:13.920 --> 00:16.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Ardita's crime is not one of those covered by the U.S.
[00:16.600 --> 00:29.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: extradition agreement with Argentina, which means that they can't even arrest him and bring him into this country, which I don't really understand why all the big fuss, if they're going to have this huge press conference and talk about all of this, they can't even prosecute the person,
[00:29.420 --> 00:31.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: so why bring it up in the first place?
[00:31.120 --> 00:32.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: It seems kind of weird.
[00:33.020 --> 00:41.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Also, one thing that is unclear in all this, yes, he gained access, supposedly gained access to all these computer systems, but again, what was done?
[00:41.860 --> 00:43.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Was anything damaged?
[00:43.220 --> 00:44.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Was anything copied?
[00:45.380 --> 00:47.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Were things altered in any particular way?
[00:48.720 --> 00:50.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's not really being mentioned.
[00:50.650 --> 00:55.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're saying that he wasn't charged with obtaining any classified information relating to national security, but he gained access.
[00:56.720 --> 00:58.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, you know, it's very nebulous.
[00:58.400 --> 00:58.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's very vague.
[00:59.150 --> 01:02.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't know exactly what it is that, uh, that he's up to.
[01:03.280 --> 01:08.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and we may never know, but what we do get out of this is that, uh, we need to wiretap the Internet.
[01:08.280 --> 01:17.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: We need to always be watching what people do, and that's just, uh, adds to a sense of paranoia, and, and, um...
[01:17.740 --> 01:22.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know, it's, it's rather typical of some of the things we've seen in the past.
[01:22.760 --> 01:37.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then, we had something happening on April 2nd, actually before that, a little, a couple days before that, uh, from St. Louis and Philadelphia, uh, a case involving, I guess, another hacker who, uh, is being looked upon as the next Kevin Mitnick, apparently.
[01:37.200 --> 01:47.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, a St. Louis man is a computer genius responsible for a threat of computer violence against the NBC television network and capable of seizing control of virtually any computer.
[01:47.840 --> 01:58.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, Christopher Shannott's potential for mischief is so great that prosecutors said they want him held in jail without bail so he can't get near a computer terminal.
[01:59.500 --> 02:09.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we wanted him away from a computer to prevent him from causing any damage or loss, uh, to any computer system.
[02:09.500 --> 02:11.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, that's according to a prosecutor in St. Louis.
[02:11.720 --> 02:27.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, get this, the prosecutor has asked to remain unidentified out of fear of retaliation from computer hackers who might try to use her name, we've narrowed it down so far, uh, to, uh, view or alter her personal computer records.
[02:28.340 --> 02:29.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll find you.
[02:29.460 --> 02:30.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, we will.
[02:31.120 --> 02:34.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can't be a prosecutor in St. Louis, uh, and remain anonymous.
[02:34.820 --> 02:35.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, that's just ridiculous.
[02:35.980 --> 02:39.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, you know, the president saying something and wanting to be anonymous.
[02:40.060 --> 02:45.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: A prosecutor, uh, is, uh, that's really all we have on the prosecutor, actually.
[02:46.540 --> 02:47.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, uh, no more information.
[02:47.840 --> 02:51.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: But if we get more information, we'll certainly, uh, we'll certainly let people know about it.
[02:52.000 --> 02:52.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[02:53.180 --> 03:02.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, meanwhile, they're giving out this guy's name and his, uh, and his age and his address and virtually everything else that, uh, that we can find.
[03:03.180 --> 03:07.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they're saying that, uh, he lived in High Ridge, which I guess is in Missouri.
[03:09.120 --> 03:20.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he was being held Monday on $150,000 bail in Philadelphia, where FBI agents arrested him last week on charges of computer fraud.
[03:20.380 --> 03:36.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: A five-count federal indictment returned in St. Louis on March 14th, accuses Chanat of hacking into the computers of Southwestern Bell Telephone, uh, Bell Communications Research, Sprint, and SRI International, a research and development contractor with government contracts.
[03:37.080 --> 03:46.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Authorities allege that Southwestern Bell had to spend $500,000 to repair damage and plug a computer security leak that Chanat had exploited.
[03:46.960 --> 03:53.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: The computer break-ins took place between October 23rd, 1994 and April 23rd, 1995, the indictment alleges.
[03:53.760 --> 03:56.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: At the time, Chanat was a student at Vianney High School.
[03:57.220 --> 04:00.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: In a memorandum filed in federal court in Philadelphia, Assistant U.S.
[04:00.940 --> 04:07.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Attorney Joan Markman, uh, said investigators have linked him to hackers known as the Internet Liberation Front.
[04:07.740 --> 04:17.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: The group has decried commercialization of the Internet, uh, which in its early days linked computers of universities and large companies doing research.
[04:18.560 --> 04:23.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, made public Monday, Markman's memo and other court records give this account.
[04:23.240 --> 04:35.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Three weeks after... I'm really sorry if I'm mispronouncing his name, uh, if that even is his name in the first place, but, uh, uh, Chanat or whatever it is, uh, graduated from, uh, from Vianney.
[04:36.160 --> 04:39.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Three weeks after he did that he abruptly left St. Louis by train for Philadelphia.
[04:40.770 --> 04:46.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: His, uh, father, Mike Chanat, turned over his... get this, turned over his son's personal computer to FBI agents.
[04:47.400 --> 04:52.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Nice guy, dad, turning over the guy's computer to, to, to FBI agents.
[04:52.540 --> 04:55.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that was apparently what started this whole thing.
[04:55.800 --> 05:01.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, they were able to retrieve all kinds of files from there, including a message headed, greetings from the Internet Liberation Front.
[05:01.560 --> 05:08.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, the message was saved to the suspect's computer on Thanksgiving Day, 1994, day of the computerized break-in at NBC.
[05:09.240 --> 05:17.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: The, uh, the message said, the group has now declared war on any company suspected of contributing to the final demise of the Internet.
[05:18.520 --> 05:24.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Big boys in the telecommunication industry have turned the Internet into another overflowing cesspool of greed, the message added.
[05:24.240 --> 05:28.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: We are capable of penetrating virtually any network linked to the Internet, any network.
[05:29.700 --> 05:36.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, Chanat's computer also contained hundreds of passwords to various multinational corporations, military contractors, and credit reporting agencies.
[05:37.220 --> 05:42.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, the machine held hundreds of, of credit card numbers and AT&T calling card numbers.
[05:43.200 --> 05:54.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, Chanat was intent on infiltrating computer systems of some of the largest companies and entities in the country and compromising the security of those systems, enabling him to seize control of those computers.
[05:55.240 --> 05:58.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, large-scale computer hacking has been detected here before 1993.
[05:58.800 --> 06:07.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Authorities accused a computer science student, uh, from another part of Missouri that I cannot pronounce, of computerized access to many internal files at the 8th U.S.
[06:07.600 --> 06:08.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Circuit Court of Appeals.
[06:08.800 --> 06:10.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: The student there got to suspend his sentence.
[06:12.500 --> 06:20.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, in this particular, uh, case though, uh, some, uh, excerpts from the ILF, uh, manifesto, as it, as it was stated at the time.
[06:20.680 --> 06:27.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: The only thing we enjoy is increasing our power in any way we can, uh, according to, uh, the person who said that.
[06:27.380 --> 06:34.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: In its message left on an NBC computer, the group suggested that the network, quote, take an X, unquote, to its firewall machine before we do.
[06:34.780 --> 06:37.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: A firewall is computer jargon for a security mechanism.
[06:38.040 --> 06:42.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: The prosecutor in St. Louis said a determined and knowledgeable hacker can get into any computer system.
[06:43.380 --> 06:47.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: No computer is ultimately 100% safe, the prosecutor said.
[06:47.360 --> 06:50.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: It looks like they're both saying the same thing and saying it in slightly different tones.
[06:50.980 --> 06:56.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but here you have a situation where somebody in, uh, in, where is he?
[06:56.720 --> 06:57.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: In Philadelphia, St. Louis.
[06:57.580 --> 06:58.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think he's in St. Louis right now.
[06:59.300 --> 07:03.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, he's being held in prison, $150,000, um, bail.
[07:04.840 --> 07:07.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, basically, this is for possession of passwords.
[07:08.040 --> 07:12.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is for, uh, for posting something onto the Internet that was kind of rude and obnoxious.
[07:13.660 --> 07:18.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I guess, uh, basically, this is somebody that they don't want to see ever let out again.
[07:19.300 --> 07:24.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't really know all that much about the person in particular, what exactly he was up to, what he was doing, things like that.
[07:24.640 --> 07:30.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, we do know what the, what, what, what, what the intent is behind locking people like that up.
[07:30.360 --> 07:31.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've seen it with Kevin Mitnick.
[07:31.440 --> 07:32.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've seen it with Bernie S.
[07:33.120 --> 07:34.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: And is this Bernie S.
[07:34.480 --> 07:34.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes or no?
[07:36.000 --> 07:36.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, it's him.
[07:37.000 --> 07:37.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: How about that?
[07:38.100 --> 07:38.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh,
[07:47.760 --> 07:48.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: it's him.
[07:49.080 --> 07:50.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: How about that?
[07:50.280 --> 07:53.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: More call waiting features, or you will be disconnected.
[07:54.040 --> 07:56.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: To accept this call, dial one now.
[07:57.680 --> 07:58.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you.
[08:00.430 --> 08:00.840]  Hello?
[08:01.160 --> 08:01.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bernie, are you there?
[08:01.940 --> 08:02.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can you hear me?
[08:02.680 --> 08:03.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm here.
[08:03.380 --> 08:05.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: I am very sorry about all those hang-ups.
[08:05.520 --> 08:08.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: This, uh, telephone system is really unreliable.
[08:08.980 --> 08:12.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think I had to call you 14 times before I got through, and that's not an exaggeration.
[08:13.060 --> 08:16.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think we haven't reported that to the call annoyance bureau of NYNEX.
[08:16.340 --> 08:17.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, you will be contacted.
[08:17.300 --> 08:20.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: All I need is to, uh, have, uh, another, uh, sentence added onto this prison sentence.
[08:21.080 --> 08:23.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, uh, any, any new news this week?
[08:23.600 --> 08:27.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, actually, I got some good news about my case, or at least it seems to be good news.
[08:27.460 --> 08:39.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, my federal appeal, um, which was filed a few weeks ago, uh, by my attorney in Philadelphia, uh, received a response from the government, and, uh, it's pretty leaguer, the, uh, government's response.
[08:39.660 --> 08:42.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: It doesn't, uh, seem to have much, much beef to it.
[08:42.760 --> 09:01.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, the argument, uh, that I'm trying to make is that this new federal statute that I'm charged with, which was passed in late 94, uh, is so vague that it violates something called the Void for Vagueness Doctrine, which is a violation of due process,
[09:01.360 --> 09:04.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: and therefore a violation of my constitutional rights.
[09:05.600 --> 09:09.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, the government doesn't seem to have much, uh, much to say about it.
[09:09.780 --> 09:25.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: They just say, uh, well, no it doesn't, but they can't really seem to say why this, uh, these terminologies, uh, and the terms in the statute, like, uh, unauthorized use, unauthorized access, uh, telecommunications instrument, those terms aren't defined in the statute at all,
[09:25.170 --> 09:28.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: and they can literally apply to anyone who has a computer.
[09:29.200 --> 09:34.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, we're challenging it on those grounds, and, uh, later this year it'll be heard before a three-judge federal panel.
[09:34.460 --> 09:38.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm going to still flesh out some of the details with my attorney, but, so far, so good.
[09:38.440 --> 09:39.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: His argument seems a lot stronger than theirs.
[09:40.980 --> 09:48.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yes, but, uh, we, we know from the past that, uh, things that seem to be logical don't necessarily work that way, especially when, uh, federal prosecutions are concerned.
[09:49.170 --> 09:57.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I mean, uh, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, uh, begrudging you your optimism, but, uh, do you think that reason will, uh, will, will prevail in this case?
[09:58.670 --> 10:03.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I don't, I don't know if it's going to have anything to do with reason, because... Hello?
[10:03.980 --> 10:05.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's part of the, the criminal justice system.
[10:05.920 --> 10:13.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've been through it for the past year, and it's, uh, it's, it's, uh, basically a toss of the coin.
[10:13.280 --> 10:14.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's just see the way it goes.
[10:14.340 --> 10:19.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, now I can only try to be optimistic, because if I'm pessimistic about it, then I just get more depressed than I am already.
[10:19.920 --> 10:35.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: One, one interesting thing in my favor is that this is going to be heard in the Third Circuit, uh, federal appeals court in Philadelphia, which is the same federal appeals court that the ACLU has recently challenged the new, uh, and, uh, new content, uh,
[10:35.780 --> 10:46.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: law that's part of the, uh, Communications Act 1995, which makes it a federal, uh, crime to transmit, uh, indecent information over the Internet.
[10:46.580 --> 10:53.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they, again, they don't define the term indecent in this, uh, in this, uh, new Communications Act 1995.
[10:53.900 --> 11:05.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Similarly, my, the law I was charged with, uh, have the unfortunate distinction of being the first person in the country charged with this statute last year, uh, is, uh, is equally vague.
[11:05.340 --> 11:07.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: It just doesn't define certain terms in the statute.
[11:07.900 --> 11:21.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I'm afraid this is a, a, a bothersome, not a bothersome, but a dangerous trend when it comes to the government trying to regulate telecommunications policy, uh, when they don't define their terminology well enough to, to be easily understood by the average person.
[11:21.860 --> 11:36.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, um, I'm hoping that the, uh, the, uh, the federal court, uh, third circuit federal court will be, uh, their awareness will be a little more heightened because of all the publicity surrounding this, uh, ACLU challenge to, uh, the, the vagueness of this,
[11:36.460 --> 11:38.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: uh, this Communications Act 1995.
[11:38.900 --> 11:43.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Their case should be heard shortly before mine, so maybe I can ride on their coattails, as it were.
[11:45.200 --> 11:52.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that would be nice, uh, if, uh, if you were able to, uh, somehow get something, some sort of justice done in this particular case.
[11:52.920 --> 11:54.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's been, there's been very little justice so far.
[11:55.120 --> 11:56.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, how, how are the conditions there?
[11:56.840 --> 11:58.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have they improved or are they any better?
[11:59.240 --> 12:01.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, uh, a bit worse.
[12:01.520 --> 12:03.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm healthy.
[12:03.560 --> 12:07.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not, uh, as sick as I was at the other prison that I was just transferred from a couple of weeks ago.
[12:07.700 --> 12:18.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, part of the reason for that is I was able to get some fresh air once a day at this prison, but apparently they just closed the, uh, the outside exercise in your yard for, uh, for the next month to do renovations.
[12:18.240 --> 12:20.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, no more fresh air for a whole month.
[12:20.520 --> 12:25.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, I'll just have to, uh, breathe, uh, stale, stagnant air.
[12:25.960 --> 12:31.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: At least it's not cigarette smoke, uh, laden air like the other, uh, like the other prison I was just transferred from.
[12:31.560 --> 12:34.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, um, I'm feeling better than I was before.
[12:34.640 --> 12:36.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's a little bit of better medical care, medical care.
[12:36.900 --> 12:43.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: They also let me see a physical therapist, which is, uh, which is new because, uh, for the past year I've been denied any physical therapy.
[12:43.760 --> 12:45.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: At the other three prisons I've been shuffled through.
[12:46.340 --> 12:54.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: For my, uh, broken elbow, which, uh, has a very little range of motion in it as a result of a really bad fracture I got about a year and a half ago.
[12:54.880 --> 13:03.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, both at, uh, Delaware County Prison in Pennsylvania and Federal Prison in, uh, Fairwich, New Jersey, and Northampton County Prison in Pennsylvania.
[13:03.700 --> 13:10.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: All three of those institutions refused to give me any physical therapy or even have anyone qualified look at the problem.
[13:10.900 --> 13:28.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Finally, uh, last week a physical therapist looked at my elbow here and she said indeed it was a problem, but unfortunately the window of opportunity that I had for regaining that range of motion in my elbow has closed over the past year because it hasn't been attended to properly.
[13:28.340 --> 13:29.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, kind of out of luck.
[13:29.900 --> 13:34.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, I'm a little angry about that, but it's kind of water, uh, over the dam at this point.
[13:36.500 --> 13:46.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, well, we're going to take some phone calls, 212-279-3400, and see just, uh, what's going on in the world of telecommunications and what other people are up to as well.
[13:46.260 --> 13:50.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you have any questions for Bernie S., uh, feel free to call us up.
[13:50.280 --> 13:54.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400, uh, is our telephone number.
[13:55.800 --> 13:58.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and Bernie, you, uh, you got a visit on Saturday.
[13:58.400 --> 14:01.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: I believe you'll be getting another visit this Sunday coming up from, from some of us.
[14:01.620 --> 14:01.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that right?
[14:02.200 --> 14:02.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's great.
[14:02.920 --> 14:08.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was so excited to have some visitors, um, from some of your loyal listeners, uh, last Saturday.
[14:08.540 --> 14:09.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was actually unexpected.
[14:09.340 --> 14:13.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: I wasn't expecting anyone, and I hadn't had a visit here yet at this prison.
[14:13.420 --> 14:14.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, it was wonderful.
[14:15.140 --> 14:26.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: One, one good thing about this prison, if there's anything good about prison, is that, uh, the visits are scheduled on, on weekends, unlike the other place, which had, you had to do it on, like, Wednesday afternoons or something.
[14:26.380 --> 14:27.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just terribly inconvenient.
[14:28.020 --> 14:37.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, theory, up to three people can visit you for up to two hours long, which is a lot better than, uh, one person for 15 minutes in the middle of a Wednesday afternoon.
[14:37.220 --> 14:39.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, I had a great visit.
[14:39.480 --> 14:40.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: It really lifted my spirits.
[14:40.740 --> 14:42.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm still riding a little high from it.
[14:42.760 --> 14:46.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, thank you, three, uh, ladies who came down to see me, if you're listening.
[14:46.740 --> 14:48.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, hope to see you again soon.
[14:48.220 --> 14:51.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: What are, what are the conditions like in the visiting area in this particular place?
[14:51.400 --> 15:03.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's actually, uh, held in what's called the MPR, or multi-purpose room, which is really a gymnasium, um, used for, uh, for indoor recreation, uh, this basketball courts.
[15:03.900 --> 15:15.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, basically, uh, that's the, that's the big room that they're putting us in for our one-hour daily recreation period now that they've closed the outside yard for the next month.
[15:15.320 --> 15:20.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: So it's, uh, it looks like a big, uh, college or high school, uh, auditorium.
[15:20.280 --> 15:23.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: This, this prison is a lot more modern than, uh, the one I just came from.
[15:23.440 --> 15:25.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: The one I just came from was built in 1867.
[15:26.420 --> 15:28.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and it looks at any inside.
[15:28.560 --> 15:35.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: This place is about 11 years old, and it's very scientifically laid out as far as, uh, um, a lot of surveillance cameras all over the place.
[15:36.020 --> 15:44.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the way it's laid out is like a, uh, a wagon wheel, and you have to, uh, all the housing units are on the, uh, the ends of the spokes.
[15:44.400 --> 15:51.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: So you have to pass through the central hub to get to, uh, the dodge hall or to the multi-purpose recreation room or anything like that.
[15:51.820 --> 15:53.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: So your movements are never unobserved.
[15:54.100 --> 16:00.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's very, uh, Orwellian, but, uh, the conditions are a little cleaner and, uh, they have better health care.
[16:00.160 --> 16:01.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I guess I shouldn't complain.
[16:02.480 --> 16:03.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, you certainly shouldn't.
[16:04.080 --> 16:08.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, now, as far as the, as far as the actual visit goes, uh, are you on the same side?
[16:09.020 --> 16:12.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, do you have to be on another side of a table or something like that, like your other place?
[16:12.020 --> 16:13.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or is it more human?
[16:17.360 --> 16:17.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you there?
[16:17.860 --> 16:19.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, on the other side of a wide table.
[16:19.580 --> 16:21.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we missed just about everything you said there.
[16:21.500 --> 16:22.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Could you start over?
[16:22.140 --> 16:22.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm sorry.
[16:22.820 --> 16:24.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, these phones tend to cut off.
[16:25.900 --> 16:31.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, in Northampton County, I had to sit across a wide table from the one permitted visitor.
[16:32.480 --> 16:41.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Here, actually, it's just a, this huge gymnasium is just full of metal chairs, and you just sit in them, and you can, uh, you can move the chairs, uh, you know, pretty close to your visitors.
[16:41.700 --> 16:46.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: They have some interesting policies as far as what, what visitors cannot wear and cannot do.
[16:47.780 --> 16:51.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, I think, uh, I think my visitors took a photograph of that poster.
[16:51.860 --> 16:56.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was, uh, or a sign, uh, the type of clothing was, uh, was forbidden.
[16:56.740 --> 16:58.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, uh, have to come below.
[16:58.980 --> 17:02.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Dresses have to come to, uh, below the knee or something.
[17:02.420 --> 17:03.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just ridiculous things like that.
[17:04.000 --> 17:05.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I was glad to see some friendly faces.
[17:05.940 --> 17:07.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's, that's, that's what's important.
[17:07.720 --> 17:11.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, we're still looking at May 30th as the, uh, as the release date, the earliest release date.
[17:12.080 --> 17:14.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, and let's hope that that comes through.
[17:14.760 --> 17:16.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: So this nightmare can put to an end.
[17:16.600 --> 17:17.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: I hope so.
[17:17.260 --> 17:32.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: If it doesn't, then the only explanation I can think of would be that the Circuit Service has applied, uh, additional pressure in my case to the Pennsylvania State Parole Board, who now will determine whether I will be released, uh, at the, at the minimum of my six to 24 month sentence,
[17:33.100 --> 17:37.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: which will be May 30th, or the maximum or somewhere in between.
[17:37.460 --> 17:40.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: The worst case would be sometime in late, uh, 1997.
[17:40.480 --> 17:55.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that would be pretty horrible for, for a, uh, a misdemeanor that the State of Pennsylvania classifies as having the same severity as insulting the flag, uh, scattering rubbish, and creating a publish, a public nuisance.
[17:55.580 --> 17:56.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was charged with a misdemeanor too.
[17:57.000 --> 18:02.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, um, I hope I don't have to spend two years in prison for, uh, for something that, uh, heinous.
[18:03.720 --> 18:04.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we will see.
[18:04.960 --> 18:06.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll keep updated on the story.
[18:06.220 --> 18:07.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now we're going to take some phone calls.
[18:07.260 --> 18:10.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hopefully your phone system, uh, won't puke when we try this.
[18:10.480 --> 18:11.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, what, what exactly was the problem?
[18:11.960 --> 18:12.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know?
[18:12.420 --> 18:20.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, apparently, uh, if there's any sudden noise at the, uh, called party's end... Like, like someone saying hello or something?
[18:20.580 --> 18:20.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Exactly.
[18:21.080 --> 18:22.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because I heard you say hello and it hung up.
[18:22.880 --> 18:29.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was speaking with a friend, uh, named Scott a few days ago, and he, uh, every time he laughed when I said something, the phone cut off.
[18:30.280 --> 18:30.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[18:30.520 --> 18:32.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, it's very bizarre, um...
[18:32.500 --> 18:34.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: You have to stop being so funny.
[18:34.300 --> 18:36.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, I guess that's, uh, that's, that's a lesson there.
[18:36.440 --> 18:37.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: I guess I'm telling him not to laugh.
[18:39.460 --> 18:40.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[18:40.440 --> 18:41.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't mean to do that.
[18:41.560 --> 18:41.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[18:42.140 --> 18:43.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, you're still there?
[18:43.280 --> 18:43.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm here, yeah.
[18:44.060 --> 18:44.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good.
[18:44.400 --> 18:44.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[18:45.040 --> 18:45.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Don't you laugh.
[18:45.800 --> 18:46.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: That could cause other problems.
[18:46.820 --> 18:47.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-oh.
[18:47.300 --> 18:47.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[18:47.740 --> 18:49.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[18:49.720 --> 18:50.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[18:50.240 --> 18:51.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're our first caller.
[18:51.340 --> 18:51.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, hi.
[18:52.000 --> 18:52.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's Jeremy.
[18:52.660 --> 18:53.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm really good.
[18:53.200 --> 18:54.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: I met you at the morning very well.
[18:54.660 --> 18:55.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: How are you?
[18:55.680 --> 18:57.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just, I wanted to say hi to Bernie again.
[18:57.840 --> 18:58.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi, Bernie.
[18:58.300 --> 18:58.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[18:58.940 --> 18:59.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: What's your name again?
[18:59.620 --> 19:00.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is Jeremy.
[19:00.500 --> 19:02.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: I called you, let's see, about the vitamins originally.
[19:03.000 --> 19:03.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: I remember.
[19:03.640 --> 19:04.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for calling.
[19:04.420 --> 19:11.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: And then the next week I called to tell you that I got everything back bulldozed, but, uh, now I'm going to try to resend it to the new place.
[19:11.180 --> 19:12.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, maybe I can, oh, that's right.
[19:12.520 --> 19:14.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: You sent it to the, uh, to the other prison.
[19:14.360 --> 19:14.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[19:14.600 --> 19:16.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: They, uh, they ran it over with a steamroller.
[19:16.180 --> 19:16.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[19:17.620 --> 19:17.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um...
[19:17.940 --> 19:19.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Did they open that package?
[19:19.160 --> 19:19.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, yes.
[19:19.840 --> 19:20.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, yeah.
[19:20.380 --> 19:21.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what I mean.
[19:21.040 --> 19:22.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was just torn apart.
[19:22.760 --> 19:23.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[19:23.160 --> 19:24.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, uh, I hope that doesn't happen.
[19:24.760 --> 19:29.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: The only thing, uh, I have to say, if you send anything to this prison, I guess you have the address, or I'll give it again.
[19:29.960 --> 19:31.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, yeah, but you should give it again.
[19:31.560 --> 19:35.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: It has to say reading materials on the outside of the envelope or box.
[19:35.420 --> 19:35.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[19:35.480 --> 19:37.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: If it doesn't, they'll just send it back without even opening it.
[19:37.940 --> 19:38.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[19:38.380 --> 19:42.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: And as far as the reading materials, are, do you, do you get current events?
[19:42.300 --> 19:44.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, do you know what's going on in the radio?
[19:44.360 --> 19:46.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And so, do you have radio and television there, or what?
[19:46.760 --> 19:58.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, there is, unlike the other prison, uh, there is one television on the housing unit, but it's shared by all 81 inmates and not being a big fan of, uh, uh, World Wrestling Federation programming.
[19:59.040 --> 20:01.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm overruled by the, uh, by the consensus.
[20:01.980 --> 20:04.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh... Are current events useful to you or interesting to you?
[20:04.960 --> 20:05.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sorry?
[20:05.520 --> 20:08.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Are current events interesting to you or useful at the prison?
[20:08.420 --> 20:09.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a real news junkie.
[20:09.280 --> 20:10.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: I try to keep up on current events.
[20:10.520 --> 20:10.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[20:11.120 --> 20:18.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, unlike the other prison, I can receive, uh, magazines and books here, but the package just has to be marked reading materials.
[20:18.340 --> 20:18.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[20:18.880 --> 20:19.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[20:19.320 --> 20:20.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I'll let somebody else go.
[20:20.540 --> 20:23.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Emmanuel, maybe I could check with you when you're going to do a visit.
[20:23.860 --> 20:25.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, yeah, sure, sure.
[20:25.520 --> 20:25.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[20:26.080 --> 20:27.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be the conduit of information, I guess.
[20:28.020 --> 20:28.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[20:28.460 --> 20:28.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[20:28.960 --> 20:29.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[20:29.220 --> 20:29.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for calling.
[20:30.040 --> 20:30.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Somebody else.
[20:30.580 --> 20:31.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for calling.
[20:31.060 --> 20:31.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Take care, Bernie.
[20:31.880 --> 20:32.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bye-bye.
[20:32.480 --> 20:32.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Be good.
[20:33.300 --> 20:33.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[20:33.800 --> 20:34.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: On to our next phone call.
[20:34.780 --> 20:35.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[20:35.100 --> 20:35.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[20:37.020 --> 20:37.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, it's you.
[20:38.100 --> 20:38.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[20:40.120 --> 20:41.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Too much to handle, huh?
[20:41.720 --> 20:42.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[20:42.300 --> 20:42.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[20:45.020 --> 20:46.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, that was stupid.
[20:46.400 --> 20:47.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, Bernie, are you there?
[20:47.500 --> 20:47.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm here.
[20:48.120 --> 20:49.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: The touchdowns didn't cut me off, fortunately.
[20:50.160 --> 20:50.160]  All right.
[20:50.280 --> 20:51.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was really stupid, whoever did that.
[20:51.880 --> 20:52.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Don't, don't do things like that.
[20:53.280 --> 20:53.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[20:53.660 --> 20:54.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[20:54.840 --> 20:55.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello?
[20:55.380 --> 20:55.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, go ahead.
[20:56.740 --> 20:58.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, um, right.
[20:58.220 --> 21:08.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think that, you know, maybe a lot of people don't realize the, uh, the seriousness of this, um, assault on, um, on, um, computer hackers and stuff.
[21:09.100 --> 21:10.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I realize it.
[21:10.900 --> 21:11.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[21:11.260 --> 21:14.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I think a lot of, a lot of people, people don't.
[21:14.140 --> 21:26.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: You see, what's, what's being done is like, first of all, these, um, sentences, which far, the severity of these sentences, which far outweigh the, um, crime, if there is indeed any crime at all.
[21:27.220 --> 21:28.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, that's number one.
[21:29.220 --> 21:44.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Number two is... I should mention that the, uh, the federal statute I was charged with for the mere possession of a computer program and hardware that can be purchased at any Radio Shack store carries a maximum sentence of 15 years in federal prison and a $250,000
[21:44.600 --> 21:45.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: fine.
[21:45.600 --> 21:46.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, that's the point.
[21:46.660 --> 21:59.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: This, this people being charged for having the potential or the knowledge to commit some crime, not for actually having done something or even having planned or plotted to do something.
[21:59.740 --> 22:10.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just having the knowledge or the ability to do something is by itself reason to, uh, you know, impose these rather harsh sentences or at least arrest people and imprison them and put them on trial.
[22:10.780 --> 22:25.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: I know, particularly in your case and other cases, like, things that were brought up were, you know, having pieces of plastic that could be used to falsify credit cards, having, um, um, instructions on how to make bombs.
[22:25.660 --> 22:39.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: For Christ's sake, you know, I'm in a technical profession and in my house, I have many chemistry and physics techs which could be construed, you know, because of certain chapters or comments in them as instructions for making bombs, you know?
[22:39.140 --> 22:41.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: It doesn't mean I'm going to use those to make a bomb.
[22:42.260 --> 22:59.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: In, uh, in my case, it was interesting, uh, the Secret Service agent, Thomas Varney, claimed that I had a sketch of a sketch of a bomb in my home, which was actually a drawing that was given to me by a friend while I was in high school back in 1979 of a model rocket motor and how to build your own model rocket motors,
[22:59.060 --> 23:01.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: because at the time I was interested model rocketry.
[23:01.460 --> 23:13.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: This was, uh, I think, intentionally interpreted to be a bomb and, uh, uh, trotted out in court as, as, as justifying, uh, their accusations that I'm dangerous because I had a sketch of a bomb.
[23:13.900 --> 23:16.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's just, you know, ludicrous.
[23:16.080 --> 23:34.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, that's what the danger of this is, is that the government is being able to say they think that people may be able to do something, or to take, like, ambiguous evidence and actually tell the courts what that ambiguous evidence means, and then accuse people of,
[23:34.520 --> 23:37.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: of committing some crime based on that ambiguous evidence.
[23:37.980 --> 23:41.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is extraordinarily dangerous, as far as I know, unprecedented.
[23:41.420 --> 23:45.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm surprised that the Civil Liability Union hasn't gotten more involved in this.
[23:45.420 --> 23:47.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: I just shudder to think what's going to happen.
[23:47.740 --> 23:48.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: There is a classic case.
[23:48.120 --> 23:48.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Can you hear me?
[23:48.900 --> 23:49.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[23:49.560 --> 23:56.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: There is a classic case of GreenEd versus the city of Rockford, which is one of the, uh, one of the bases behind my federal appeal.
[23:57.040 --> 24:06.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, if there's a, if I can have about half a minute, I'll read, uh, read what, uh, what the court, federal court, Third Circuit federal court ruled in 1972.
[24:07.140 --> 24:11.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, and I'll quote, vague laws offend several important values.
[24:11.440 --> 24:27.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: First, because we assume that man is free to steer between lawful and unlawful conduct, we insist that laws give the person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited so that he may act accordingly.
[24:28.320 --> 24:32.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Vague laws may trap the innocent by not providing fair warning.
[24:33.200 --> 24:42.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Secondly, if arbitrary and discriminatory enforcement is to be prevented, laws must provide explicit standards for those who apply them.
[24:43.240 --> 24:59.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: A vague law impermissibly delegates basic policy matters to policemen, judges, and juries for resolution on an ad hoc and subjective basis with the attendant dangers of arbitrary and discriminatory application.
[24:59.480 --> 25:03.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, that's one of the, one of the arguments I'm trying to make in my federal appeal.
[25:03.740 --> 25:19.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, well, let's, let's just hope that the courts in general understand that argument and aren't just buffaloed, because this is a field where they don't really understand the, the, the technology and are able to be fooled and have the wool pulled over their eyes by the,
[25:19.980 --> 25:21.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: uh, police agencies that want to do it.
[25:21.960 --> 25:23.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks, uh, that's all I have to say.
[25:23.940 --> 25:24.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, thanks for your call.
[25:24.820 --> 25:25.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[25:25.300 --> 25:41.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, you raise a very good point there, and it's, in fact, uh, what has happened up until now, uh, best case, uh, best example I can think of involves the Secret Service, uh, saying Bernie S was, uh, was guilty of, um, of, of being a danger to society because he had all this information on the Secret Service.
[25:41.840 --> 25:50.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: The exact same information was posted on our Internet site, on our, uh, our worldwide website, and the Secret Service went on record as saying there's nothing illegal about that.
[25:50.260 --> 26:05.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because if they had said in a national newspaper, uh, it's illegal to have information on Secret Service frequencies and code names and all this other, uh, crap that you can find virtually any place, it would have made them appear to be rather dictatorial and oppressive and just bad and stupid.
[26:05.980 --> 26:12.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, when they say it in a, in a closed courtroom to a judge, no one's really gonna find out about it so they can get away with things like that.
[26:12.780 --> 26:20.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: But here we see the contradiction, how one, one time in one situation they say one thing, but in another situation when they're called upon it, they say something completely different.
[26:20.980 --> 26:24.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's what we have to, uh, be wary of when we have to report it when we find things like that.
[26:26.060 --> 26:26.680]  Well said.
[26:27.220 --> 26:27.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks.
[26:28.240 --> 26:36.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, now, uh, anything else you want to, you want to tell us as far as, uh, what, what's, I don't know, any prison activities going on that are particularly exciting?
[26:36.020 --> 26:44.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, aside from the fact that they closed down our exercise yard for the next month, but, uh, they closed it just when the weather's starting to get nice.
[26:44.580 --> 26:46.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, let's see here.
[26:46.480 --> 26:50.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I'm looking through my notes.
[26:51.140 --> 26:54.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, the government response I got, as I said, was, uh, was pretty meager.
[26:54.820 --> 26:59.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is just the first round of, uh, of the back and forth, um, challenges.
[26:59.500 --> 27:05.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, uh, uh, next couple of weeks I'm gonna flesh out the details with my attorney as far as other input I have.
[27:05.600 --> 27:09.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: He'll be coming up to visit me within a week or so to, uh, to go over some of this stuff.
[27:09.280 --> 27:20.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, he, he thinks that this fact that the, uh, third, the same Third Circuit Federal Court is adhering to an ACLU challenge to the, to the, uh, Communications Act 1995 will be helpful in my case.
[27:20.360 --> 27:23.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, um, there's gonna be a lot of publicity about it.
[27:23.260 --> 27:24.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: That is, there, there already has been.
[27:24.960 --> 27:28.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: I want to thank everybody who has sent me, um, books and magazines.
[27:28.820 --> 27:35.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's been, uh, a real uplifting experience to get any kind of mail from anyone, um, let alone something to occupy my mind.
[27:35.700 --> 27:38.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's so, it's painfully boring here.
[27:38.220 --> 27:40.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, Bernie, what kind, what kind of things have you gotten so far?
[27:40.920 --> 27:51.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, I've gotten so, one interesting thing I got, uh, I got yesterday, uh, uh, a person in Milford, Pennsylvania, sent me several copies, uh, back issues of a magazine called Free Inquiry.
[27:51.340 --> 27:53.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's kind of a secular humanist, uh, publication.
[27:54.300 --> 28:00.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Very interesting reading, but the cover, uh, story on one of them was, uh, an article about, uh, the many phases of feminism.
[28:01.180 --> 28:06.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, the guards here, uh, they read all your mail, they open it up and look at it before they give it to you.
[28:06.300 --> 28:20.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this guard pulled out these magazines and on the front cover of this one was a picture of a, of a, a clothed woman standing in front of several mirrors with, with various reflections of her in, in different, uh, different, uh, other types of clothing.
[28:20.680 --> 28:31.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: None of it controversial really, but, uh, he somehow interpreted the, the, the, the title, uh, uh, as, uh, the many faces of feminism as he confused it with the transvestitism somehow.
[28:31.660 --> 28:40.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, he walked up to me and, uh, he accused me of, uh, or he asked me if I enjoy dressing up in women's clothing and why, why did, why was I reading that kind of material?
[28:40.840 --> 28:43.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I said, this is an article about feminism.
[28:43.300 --> 28:45.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: It has nothing to do with, with dressing in women's clothing.
[28:46.200 --> 28:48.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, he didn't understand the distinction.
[28:48.500 --> 28:51.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: And so that's the kind of mentality that people have to deal with.
[28:51.840 --> 28:53.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, that's really amazing.
[28:53.220 --> 28:54.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: You've been accused of virtually everything now.
[28:56.640 --> 29:02.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: So now you're telling me that if you send something to the prison, the, the, the prison guards read it first, no matter what it is.
[29:02.380 --> 29:02.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[29:02.400 --> 29:06.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: So if we send them, if we send them the writings of Aristotle, there's a good chance that we could educate them.
[29:06.820 --> 29:10.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, I don't think they're really capable of, uh, of learning too much, but...
[29:10.740 --> 29:12.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, let's, let's, let's, let's start out.
[29:12.460 --> 29:14.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we can write things specifically geared.
[29:14.700 --> 29:15.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are we forcing them to read this?
[29:16.120 --> 29:20.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, if we send things that, that are geared to prison guards, then, uh, who knows?
[29:20.440 --> 29:23.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: We could, we could, we could change all kinds of things.
[29:23.380 --> 29:25.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can, you know, change people very gradually.
[29:26.100 --> 29:27.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, they, they, they read all this material.
[29:28.040 --> 29:29.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Eventually something will click.
[29:29.760 --> 29:37.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: It may, they may, through osmosis, actually pick up, uh, something useful that, that will improve their attitude towards, uh, their fellow man.
[29:37.480 --> 29:38.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I'm, I'm not optimistic.
[29:39.100 --> 29:39.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[29:40.020 --> 29:40.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, okay.
[29:40.760 --> 29:41.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, again, what's your address?
[29:41.940 --> 29:42.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: So people can, uh, continue.
[29:43.020 --> 29:46.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, it's, uh, North, I'm sorry, not really, that's the last prison I was in.
[29:46.380 --> 29:47.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the fourth prison I've been in in the past.
[29:47.980 --> 29:48.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Get your prison straight there.
[29:48.980 --> 29:49.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Whew.
[29:49.500 --> 29:51.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, this is Bucks County Prison.
[29:51.700 --> 29:53.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: B-U-C-K-S.
[29:53.600 --> 29:56.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's at seven, three, where?
[29:56.860 --> 29:58.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, attention, Ed Cummings.
[29:59.080 --> 30:01.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, C-U-M-M-I-N-G-S.
[30:02.780 --> 30:03.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Excuse me.
[30:03.620 --> 30:09.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: The address is 1730 South Easton Road.
[30:09.940 --> 30:16.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's E-A-S-T-O-N Road, uh, number D as in David, 13.
[30:16.640 --> 30:18.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's my cell number, D13.
[30:18.880 --> 30:20.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's in Doylestown.
[30:20.560 --> 30:24.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: D as in David, O-Y-L-E-S-T-O-W-N-P-A.
[30:24.960 --> 30:27.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: The zip code is 1-8-9-0-1.
[30:27.940 --> 30:34.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's safe to write, uh, reading, it's just to be safe, write the words, uh, reading materials on the outside of everything.
[30:34.600 --> 30:40.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because, uh, that way there's no chance of it being rejected for something, uh, other than being reading materials.
[30:41.520 --> 30:41.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[30:42.260 --> 30:44.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And hopefully people will send, uh, whatever it is they can.
[30:45.040 --> 30:46.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, certain things you...
[30:46.020 --> 30:50.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: I want to state, anybody who writes me and gives me a return address, uh, I will write them back.
[30:51.220 --> 30:55.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I've written back a lot of people and actually made a lot of new friends this way.
[30:55.380 --> 30:57.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it really keeps my mind active that way.
[30:57.400 --> 30:59.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, don't be surprised if you get a response from me.
[30:59.880 --> 31:06.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, a lot of people have omitted the return address fearing persecution or fearing their, they'll get their name on some sort of government list.
[31:06.180 --> 31:07.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I, I totally respect that.
[31:07.820 --> 31:12.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I, uh, I can't say I disagree with their, uh, their concerns.
[31:12.820 --> 31:17.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: But anyone who, uh, who does give me their address and, uh, ask me to write them back, uh, I'll do it.
[31:18.760 --> 31:19.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[31:19.380 --> 31:19.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, then.
[31:19.980 --> 31:22.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hopefully a lot of people will send you, uh, interesting material.
[31:22.220 --> 31:23.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are certain things that you cannot send.
[31:23.900 --> 31:26.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you, do you have a brief, uh, synopsis of what those are?
[31:26.320 --> 31:30.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, there's a long list of things, but, uh, basically you can't send anything other than reading materials.
[31:30.480 --> 31:31.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can't even send me postage stamps.
[31:32.360 --> 31:39.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, if you, if you want to send me postage, the only way you could do it would be to send a money order in my name in the envelope.
[31:39.920 --> 31:42.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the guards will take it out and put it on my account.
[31:42.260 --> 31:46.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then I can buy postage stamps at the person's store and, uh, go that way.
[31:46.600 --> 31:49.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, make sure you mention if you do send a money order that you've done that in the letter.
[31:50.040 --> 31:51.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: That way there's, there's verification that...
[31:51.500 --> 31:51.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: They don't have to.
[31:52.020 --> 31:57.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: They, they pretty thoroughly go through the envelope and if they see a money order in there, they remove it immediately and put it on your account.
[31:58.000 --> 31:58.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're pretty good.
[31:58.440 --> 32:00.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm concerned about the removing it immediately part.
[32:00.480 --> 32:01.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not so much about putting it on your account.
[32:03.040 --> 32:05.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, hopefully, hopefully people will do that.
[32:06.360 --> 32:07.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Probably, uh, probably won't.
[32:07.980 --> 32:10.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: I probably wouldn't be credited if you send a dollar bill or something.
[32:10.460 --> 32:14.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I don't think they, they take cash or they don't officially take it.
[32:14.640 --> 32:15.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: They may inofficially take it.
[32:15.980 --> 32:16.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know.
[32:17.360 --> 32:18.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, uh, Phiber Optik is here.
[32:19.180 --> 32:19.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[32:19.760 --> 32:20.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Welcome to the show.
[32:20.560 --> 32:20.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[32:21.320 --> 32:23.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, now, uh, you have, uh, you have something for us, don't you?
[32:23.640 --> 32:30.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, actually, um, I thought it was interesting that, uh, that Ed would bring up the notion of, uh, purposefully vague technology law.
[32:31.320 --> 32:39.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Seems to be, uh, a weapon wielded by law enforcement commonly in, in hacker cases and I'm sure in various other cases.
[32:40.460 --> 32:50.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: If, uh, if you recall in my case, they, uh, they tried to say that my knowledge of various usernames and passwords could be, uh, construed as access device fraud.
[32:51.640 --> 33:04.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, that pertained to, uh, to a particular vague definition in, uh, I believe it was the United States Code Title 18, Section 1029, if I'm not mistaken.
[33:05.300 --> 33:08.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, that was, uh, a really tough thing for us to fight.
[33:08.880 --> 33:09.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: In the end, we lost.
[33:09.920 --> 33:19.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: When we tried to file motions against that, um, we, uh, we were only met with, uh, limited success in trying to have it denied.
[33:19.380 --> 33:31.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, uh, ultimately, uh, one, one of the things I was found guilty of was, uh, possession of, uh, 15 or more access devices, which, which they could substitute in the term password.
[33:32.380 --> 33:45.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, um, I, I always held the opinion that, uh, purposefully vague law allows law enforcement to cast a larger net to sort of stop the, uh, the nation troublemakers in their tracks.
[33:45.500 --> 33:57.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Can I ask you, Fiver, uh, did your attorney, uh, uh, discuss with you the, the chances of, of appealing the, the actual wording of the statute, um, you were charged with?
[33:57.580 --> 33:59.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And was that one of the strategies that you had?
[34:01.740 --> 34:10.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I don't know that, it just seemed that, um, they didn't really want to pursue it that, that intently.
[34:10.650 --> 34:13.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, we filed as many motions as we could.
[34:14.800 --> 34:18.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they were, uh, practically all of them were denied.
[34:18.200 --> 34:25.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think at that point my, my attorneys just didn't see any purpose in just, just appealing them over and over again.
[34:25.480 --> 34:26.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: I, I know the feeling.
[34:26.480 --> 34:27.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: I frequently had a nightmare.
[34:27.800 --> 34:35.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think I related this to my visitors last week, that, uh, I frequently had a nightmare that I was being run over by a steam roller.
[34:35.820 --> 34:44.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, uh, I don't know if you've ever seen a steam roller where the, uh, with the, the pieces of asphalt stick to it as it's rolling along and the little pebbles fall off the front of the roller.
[34:44.700 --> 34:55.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I remember I, I had the right to object to these pebbles that were falling off the steam roller onto me, but, but the fact that the whole thing was rolling over me was something I couldn't do anything about.
[34:55.200 --> 35:02.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I, I, I felt it was a very symbolic dream, uh, symbolizing the, uh, my experiences in the federal justice system.
[35:02.460 --> 35:10.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: And just, you can, you can file all these, uh, motions, but they're just going to deny everything without really seeming to give it much serious consideration.
[35:11.920 --> 35:12.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting dream.
[35:12.820 --> 35:14.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's very Kafka, Kafka-ish there.
[35:16.240 --> 35:18.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, uh, we'll be taking some more phone calls.
[35:18.180 --> 35:19.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[35:20.340 --> 35:25.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Speaking of, uh, of dollar bills, as, uh, as Bernie was speaking a moment ago, look what I have.
[35:26.160 --> 35:29.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Brand new hundred dollar bills just came out this week.
[35:29.140 --> 35:29.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, it looks fake.
[35:29.820 --> 35:30.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Found a whole bunch of them on the street.
[35:31.260 --> 35:34.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's, um, apparently somebody didn't believe they were real.
[35:34.780 --> 35:35.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here, take a look.
[35:35.740 --> 35:36.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: It does look fake.
[35:36.380 --> 35:38.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: It looks like, uh, how would you describe that to us?
[35:39.300 --> 35:42.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, the, the picture of Ben Franklin is, is much, much bigger.
[35:42.300 --> 35:42.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's very large, yeah.
[35:42.840 --> 35:44.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: And moved over to the left a little bit.
[35:45.570 --> 35:46.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I don't know.
[35:46.680 --> 35:49.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: It, it looks, uh, it's still, it's still green.
[35:49.200 --> 35:50.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's still that ugly green.
[35:50.580 --> 35:52.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: They, they didn't, they didn't change that at all.
[35:52.160 --> 35:53.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: I haven't seen one yet, obviously.
[35:53.800 --> 36:05.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, I heard that, uh, one of the, one of the anti-counterfeiting, uh, schemes used in this, uh, new bill was that the inks would change color as you shifted it back and forth.
[36:05.200 --> 36:06.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Can you see that at all?
[36:06.650 --> 36:11.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, well, looking at it right now, uh, if you could put it back, please.
[36:11.610 --> 36:15.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, you can see that there's all kinds of, like, little, uh, little details.
[36:16.100 --> 36:20.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, Phiber, if you look at it now, you will see that little line there going around the circle.
[36:20.940 --> 36:23.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, if you can believe it, that is actually text.
[36:24.040 --> 36:25.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Look very carefully and you will see.
[36:26.500 --> 36:27.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you see it?
[36:27.300 --> 36:30.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I can't because, unfortunately, it's being passed around the room.
[36:30.550 --> 36:31.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, please give it back now.
[36:32.020 --> 36:32.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[36:33.360 --> 36:33.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you see?
[36:34.050 --> 36:41.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: The text, uh, Emmanuel, is text any smaller than the, uh, than the micro-printing that they put around the portraits in, uh, previous bills?
[36:41.100 --> 36:42.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it is.
[36:42.620 --> 36:46.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, it's, it's, it's very, it's very difficult to see even, even without knowing its text.
[36:47.200 --> 36:50.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, if we had a microscope, uh, we, we'd be able to look at it a lot better.
[36:50.380 --> 36:51.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Which, which circle?
[36:51.280 --> 36:52.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: The outermost circle?
[36:52.400 --> 36:54.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have the, uh, yeah, I think it's the outermost one.
[36:54.140 --> 36:55.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's the one going right around his head.
[36:56.130 --> 36:58.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, there's like several different levels.
[36:58.580 --> 36:59.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's the one furthest out.
[36:59.960 --> 37:00.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[37:00.360 --> 37:00.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you'll see it.
[37:00.960 --> 37:05.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it says 100, uh, or, or maybe United States of America or something like that.
[37:05.300 --> 37:10.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: It still has the little strip going down the, uh, down through the, uh, sheet itself.
[37:11.300 --> 37:14.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't suppose anyone has an, an, an, an old hundred dollar bill.
[37:15.460 --> 37:17.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, well, what kind of people are you anyway?
[37:18.220 --> 37:18.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: The hundred dollar bills.
[37:20.200 --> 37:27.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, but I'm thinking this, they, they've introduced this bill now, uh, to, I guess counter, counterfeiting.
[37:27.840 --> 37:28.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[37:28.340 --> 37:30.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which is countering fitting or whatever it is.
[37:30.840 --> 37:32.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know quite what it is.
[37:32.220 --> 37:35.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the thing is, you know, this is supposed to be harder to duplicate.
[37:35.720 --> 37:35.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[37:36.200 --> 37:38.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: So somebody hands you this hundred dollar bill.
[37:38.550 --> 37:38.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[37:38.860 --> 37:39.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is real.
[37:39.820 --> 37:41.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: But you've never seen it before.
[37:41.860 --> 37:43.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: No one has ever seen these before.
[37:43.220 --> 37:46.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you could go out now with your own version of a hundred dollar bill.
[37:46.720 --> 37:48.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: It looks anything remotely like this.
[37:48.550 --> 37:53.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: And someone's bound to accept it because, you know, they're told that these new bills exist.
[37:53.300 --> 37:54.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they don't have anything to compare it to yet.
[37:55.830 --> 37:56.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um...
[37:56.480 --> 37:58.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, worse than that, you could take it to a store and no one will take it.
[37:59.050 --> 38:00.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's right there, too.
[38:00.620 --> 38:03.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we, we, we found another United States of America.
[38:03.240 --> 38:05.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: New York News released a whole list the day after it came out.
[38:06.320 --> 38:06.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[38:06.800 --> 38:07.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
[38:07.200 --> 38:09.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: It does say United States of America underneath his collar.
[38:10.300 --> 38:11.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right over there.
[38:11.760 --> 38:15.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, you know, I wish this was TV because things would be a lot easier to, uh, to point out.
[38:15.760 --> 38:17.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm sure there's all kinds of other hidden things in here.
[38:17.740 --> 38:19.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll, we'll get to work, find out.
[38:19.120 --> 38:25.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'd heard a couple of the other features that were added to this new bill were, uh, one, it has a, has a small amount of metal content in it.
[38:26.020 --> 38:33.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: So if you have a, a briefcase or a suitcase full of these things, and you try to go through a metal detector, it'll send off alarms and alert people at U.S.
[38:33.820 --> 38:41.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Customs that, that they should look in the bag and then they'll find all this money if you were trying to escape the country with a hundred thousand dollars or something like that.
[38:41.760 --> 38:44.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you see, I would try that except every time I go through U.S.
[38:44.420 --> 38:45.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Customs, something goes off.
[38:45.550 --> 38:48.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm not the good person to try that with.
[38:48.360 --> 38:50.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, um, on the way out?
[38:50.400 --> 38:51.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've never checked on the way out.
[38:51.660 --> 38:52.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've always checked on the way in.
[38:52.820 --> 39:05.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: The, uh, one of the other interesting, uh, aspects of this new bill I've read, again, I have no independent confirmation of this, but, uh, I've heard that the, uh, serial numbers are printed with a, uh, an ink that has magnetic content.
[39:05.400 --> 39:10.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, not unlike the ink that's on the bottom of, uh, of checks, which is also magnetically encoded.
[39:10.920 --> 39:15.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and these bills are actually machine-readable by serial number.
[39:15.880 --> 39:35.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, a company called Branch, uh, B-R-A-N-D-T, which makes, uh, money-counting machines that you frequently see behind bank, uh, Keller, uh, uh, counters, um, is putting out a new machine that will scan these bills and not only count them, but register in a computer of the serial numbers of those bills.
[39:35.620 --> 39:47.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: I guess the, uh, the strategy of the government behind that is that, uh, they'll be able to track these bills as far as where they're going in the vast, uh, underground, uh, cash economy from, uh, from person to person.
[39:47.860 --> 40:03.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: And eventually, uh, uh, I can envision, uh, them putting these, uh, these bill scanners in, uh, retail establishments as well as banks, so that whenever you, uh, you pay, uh, any businessman or merchant with this $100 bill, it'll be recorded that you're the person who,
[40:04.080 --> 40:12.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: uh, who had it, and this is what you bought with it, and the next golden adult government will know where the next person, uh, who the next person was who got this bill.
[40:12.760 --> 40:14.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they can actually track them from cradle to grave.
[40:14.550 --> 40:20.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm sure that's a long way off, but that technology is embedded in the bill now, apparently, for, uh, for those future plans.
[40:20.840 --> 40:22.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just found, uh, raised lettering.
[40:22.960 --> 40:28.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, there's, uh, there's a little green 100 on the bottom right, and if you, if you rub your finger along that, that is raised.
[40:29.180 --> 40:33.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Also, the, um, the serial number, I guess I can give out my serial number.
[40:33.220 --> 40:34.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: What's, what, what's the harm?
[40:34.550 --> 40:41.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, it's AB 12201602A, and that's on the lower right and upper left, as I believe it is now.
[40:41.720 --> 40:46.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, on the upper left, there are two extra numbers on one line below it, B2.
[40:47.760 --> 40:54.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I guess the B2 probably, since I don't have that little circular thing that says what bank it came from or what city it came from... B is New York.
[40:55.000 --> 40:55.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: B is New York.
[40:55.480 --> 40:56.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't say that anymore.
[40:56.620 --> 40:59.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Instead, it's this little, uh, it looks like it's photocopied.
[40:59.380 --> 41:01.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: It says United States Federal Reserve System.
[41:01.180 --> 41:01.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not green.
[41:01.880 --> 41:02.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like black.
[41:03.000 --> 41:07.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And B2 is, um, is, is written in green right underneath the serial number.
[41:08.400 --> 41:12.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so that's, that's pretty much, uh, where that's stands.
[41:12.340 --> 41:15.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I hope that thin strip in there isn't one of these, uh, tracking aids.
[41:15.960 --> 41:19.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, well, there's only one way to find out, you know, it has to be tracked.
[41:19.320 --> 41:20.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm sure we will be.
[41:20.360 --> 41:22.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Razor has something, has some inside knowledge on this.
[41:22.760 --> 41:23.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: What do you got?
[41:23.300 --> 41:34.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, well, uh, just as a, uh, a note for, um, all these different things, um, when they sent out, uh, tax refunds, they sent out a little card, um, introducing this new $100 bill.
[41:34.880 --> 41:39.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it listed nine different features that the bill has, um, different from the new one.
[41:39.760 --> 41:41.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there are nine different security countermeasures.
[41:41.590 --> 41:47.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, uh, there was the micro printing, the raised, um, the change in ink somehow.
[41:47.540 --> 41:48.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, I just discovered something.
[41:48.760 --> 41:52.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you hold this thing up, you see Ben Franklin's head on the right-hand side as well.
[41:52.260 --> 41:53.020]  A watermark.
[41:53.160 --> 41:55.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there's a watermark on the right-hand side.
[41:55.160 --> 42:00.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: But they also said that they're going to honor these bills, the old bills, um, for an indefinite period.
[42:00.720 --> 42:03.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so I, I don't know where that puts it all.
[42:03.880 --> 42:14.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there's Russians in Moscow panicking right now because they think that the, uh, the $100 bill, just like, you know, like the ruble and, uh, things in the past, uh, is going to be devalued now that it's being changed.
[42:14.440 --> 42:16.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, of course, that's not the case.
[42:16.380 --> 42:18.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's kind of funny, though, how people in foreign countries are panicking more than we are.
[42:19.000 --> 42:20.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't really care about this at all.
[42:20.420 --> 42:23.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, probably because so few of us ever see a $100 bill in the first place.
[42:23.960 --> 42:29.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, the United States of America, by the way, is like this, this sort of commercial, gimmicky type font.
[42:29.980 --> 42:33.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: It looks like we're, we have some sort of a sale or something going on.
[42:39.440 --> 42:39.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: different colors.
[42:40.000 --> 42:43.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: So all kinds of neat, uh, little contraptions going on here.
[42:44.680 --> 42:45.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[42:45.320 --> 42:47.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, Bernie, you still with us?
[42:49.480 --> 42:50.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is Bernie still with us?
[42:50.660 --> 42:51.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm still here.
[42:51.340 --> 42:51.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, great.
[42:51.940 --> 42:55.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to take another phone call and, uh, see if anybody else has any weird money out there.
[42:56.000 --> 42:59.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think the $100 is the only one being remodeled right now, although I think the others are due for it.
[43:00.120 --> 43:04.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: I hear there are plans in the works to work on, uh, successively lower denominations.
[43:04.380 --> 43:04.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[43:05.480 --> 43:09.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, if you ever want to have a lot of fun, go to any bank, and you can do this.
[43:09.120 --> 43:11.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go to any bank and get a bunch of $2 bills.
[43:11.420 --> 43:11.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay?
[43:11.760 --> 43:12.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because they do exist.
[43:12.980 --> 43:16.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then you go around to various fast food places and you pay in $2 bills.
[43:16.820 --> 43:21.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now that's a lot, you know, you can, you can have fun with this $100 bill, but, uh, it's harder to get a hold of.
[43:21.760 --> 43:24.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the $2 bills are easy to get a hold of, and people are confused.
[43:24.660 --> 43:25.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: They don't know how to deal with it.
[43:25.880 --> 43:28.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: They don't know a way to put it in the cash register drawer for one thing.
[43:28.520 --> 43:30.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: And a lot of people don't think it's real currency.
[43:30.240 --> 43:31.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you can have all kinds of interesting arguments.
[43:31.550 --> 43:32.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes they call the cops.
[43:32.580 --> 43:33.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes they don't, you know.
[43:33.800 --> 43:36.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: In any case, it's, uh, it's, it's a way to pass time.
[43:36.320 --> 43:38.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let us not forget the, uh, Susan B.
[43:38.180 --> 43:39.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Anthony dollar, either.
[43:39.240 --> 43:39.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, no.
[43:39.580 --> 43:40.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: The ones that look like quarters.
[43:40.600 --> 43:40.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's true.
[43:41.160 --> 43:41.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[43:41.500 --> 43:41.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[43:42.440 --> 43:43.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening, Emmanuel.
[43:43.560 --> 43:43.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: How you doing?
[43:44.220 --> 43:49.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, concerning the microtext, uh, the United States of America has appeared in these bills.
[43:49.720 --> 43:59.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: That started back in 1990, as well as the, the alumina, the, it's aluminized mylar strip that's fed into the pulp as it's being rolled.
[44:00.580 --> 44:09.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, the way they create the, uh, the microgram is, uh, from what I heard, a friend of mine was, uh, involved with the Bureau of Engraving a while back.
[44:09.200 --> 44:13.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a machine made by a company called Linotype Hell.
[44:13.520 --> 44:14.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know?
[44:14.120 --> 44:14.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: H-E-L-L.
[44:15.160 --> 44:15.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know what?
[44:15.780 --> 44:19.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have seen a building that says Linotype Hell in, uh, in Hoplog, New York.
[44:20.080 --> 44:21.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hoplog, uh, Port Washington.
[44:21.860 --> 44:23.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: They were based in Port Washington.
[44:23.540 --> 44:24.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: They moved into Melville.
[44:24.820 --> 44:25.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[44:25.380 --> 44:29.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, the machine is called the, I believe it's called the Chromacom DC-3500.
[44:30.700 --> 44:36.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's like a number of generations after their first machine, the DC-350, which used a Siemens-type mainframe.
[44:36.900 --> 44:41.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: But these units can scan, I believe, something like 7,200 dots per inch.
[44:41.880 --> 44:54.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: It uses a, uh, uh, a chroma-diffractive laser process where they use a, a red laser, which is based in helium neon, and they use an argon laser, which generates cyan, which is split into blue and green.
[44:55.000 --> 45:04.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: And these lasers are aimed at the, they're low-intensity of, obviously, they're just for optic, you know, optical purposes for generating, uh, color separations.
[45:04.000 --> 45:07.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're aimed at the object as it's being scanned on this drum.
[45:08.260 --> 45:12.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that information is passed into various, uh, filters and detectors.
[45:12.520 --> 45:24.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: And like I said, this is, uh, this is not your ordinary, uh, Logitech or hand scanner or flatbed, but it's the only way that they can actually, uh, generate these, uh, these images.
[45:25.160 --> 45:25.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[45:25.880 --> 45:27.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they use linotype, huh?
[45:27.560 --> 45:31.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, uh, yeah, it's been, it's, it's been known for years.
[45:31.700 --> 45:32.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's interesting.
[45:32.340 --> 45:35.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's the only kind of machine that would, uh, have the capability of generating that.
[45:36.020 --> 45:40.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: When I was over in England, I met some guy from, uh, Slovenia, which, uh, used to be part of Yugoslavia.
[45:41.100 --> 45:44.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he had a new Slovenian, uh, bill of, of some sort.
[45:44.600 --> 45:49.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it turns out that in Slovenia, they design their bills through CorelDRAW.
[45:49.980 --> 45:50.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Did you know that?
[45:51.700 --> 45:53.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: That opens up a whole world of possibilities.
[45:53.800 --> 45:54.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, boy.
[45:54.600 --> 46:00.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, I've, I haven't read a MAD magazine years, and when I opened it up and it said this thing's suffering from CorelDRAW syndrome.
[46:01.420 --> 46:01.580]  Wow.
[46:01.580 --> 46:12.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, Gil, uh, Gil, uh, Gil, Song, Bold, uh, well, EuroStyle's been around for years, but, I mean, all the type of fonts you'd expect to see with, like, CorelDRAW versions, like, 3 and up.
[46:12.500 --> 46:15.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that a, is that CorelDRAW file available on the Internet yet?
[46:15.680 --> 46:17.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, well, we're, we're, we're negotiating.
[46:17.820 --> 46:18.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's put it that way.
[46:18.580 --> 46:18.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[46:19.060 --> 46:19.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[46:19.500 --> 46:29.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can't really give out details here, but, uh, yeah, if, if you, uh, come from a certain country and you have access to your money, uh, the, uh, the particular file that makes it, uh, contact us, we'll be happy to talk to you.
[46:30.120 --> 46:33.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or come to the meeting on Friday, because that's where we conspire to do all kinds of evil things.
[46:33.700 --> 46:35.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, uh, CitiCorp between 5 and 8 p.m.
[46:36.380 --> 46:37.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, let's take another phone call.
[46:38.280 --> 46:38.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[46:38.880 --> 46:39.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[46:39.680 --> 46:40.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, guys.
[46:40.200 --> 46:42.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: I have a comment and a question.
[46:42.260 --> 46:42.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[46:42.800 --> 47:04.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, first, I thought that, being ironic, you high-tech people talking about the new $100 bill, while simultaneously on WBAI there was a man who has a classical music show who just took a trip to Micronesia, and he's been talking for like a month about the social and economic customs where they use money made out of stone.
[47:04.500 --> 47:06.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: So isn't that sort of ironic?
[47:06.480 --> 47:07.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Money made out of stone?
[47:07.660 --> 47:09.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I forget the name.
[47:09.300 --> 47:14.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's like, um, one of the, um, Samoan islands or something.
[47:14.800 --> 47:29.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's Chris Wenshaw, and he, like, he's playing recordings of the natives there, and he's talking about the evolution of the currency and barter, and how it's really quite sophisticated, and they use other forms of currency, too.
[47:29.360 --> 47:31.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I just thought that would be a little poetic irony.
[47:31.840 --> 47:34.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, now I just have a question.
[47:34.760 --> 47:45.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, you know, hackers, I don't know if Phiber is jealous, because these days we have 12-year-olds, you know, breaking into every place, and that's like so 10 minutes ago.
[47:45.540 --> 47:53.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: And plus the security measures for, you know, credit cards and accounts and major things like that, I'm sure have been tightened.
[47:53.760 --> 48:05.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I have a new spin on it, um, sort of like, you know, in Star Trek, the way they defeated the board, they sort of went to a low-level, uh, low-priority system to sabotage it.
[48:05.900 --> 48:22.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: What do you guys think of going into the files of, um, certain undesirables, and that can be interpreted any way, and not doing anything with their credit history or anything like that, but sort of doing something maybe on their mental health record?
[48:22.780 --> 48:25.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, boy, that sure sounds like a fun thing to do.
[48:25.540 --> 48:29.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that, you know, is there a future in that for creative, uh, people?
[48:29.700 --> 48:33.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there's a future for that for some people, but I don't think people like us.
[48:33.460 --> 48:34.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, what about, you know...
[48:34.620 --> 48:41.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be the people to figure it out and to show you that it's being done, and we'll probably take the blame for it, but we're not the people that are out there doing things like that.
[48:41.120 --> 48:45.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm also curious, has the, um, esteemed, um...
[48:45.540 --> 48:52.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: I forget what they're called, the parent company of the SAT, have they ever been, uh, violated, or, you know...
[48:52.500 --> 48:53.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Educational testing services.
[48:54.100 --> 48:54.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[48:55.680 --> 48:59.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And has anyone, has anyone ever, uh, done anything to those guys?
[49:00.640 --> 49:03.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess nobody here has, but, uh...
[49:03.480 --> 49:16.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: I read once that, uh, one of their boxes of tests that were being shipped to a high school, the college boards or SATs, was, uh, was stolen, and, uh, they had to recall the whole test for the country, um, because, uh, this got out the night before.
[49:16.980 --> 49:26.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was stolen the night before, and they were worried that, uh, you know, a telephone network would be set up overnight, and everybody would exchange answers real quick, and get, uh, 1,600 on their SATs the next day.
[49:26.800 --> 49:28.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bernie, I just want to wish you well.
[49:29.000 --> 49:30.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: I want to say have vigilance.
[49:31.260 --> 49:40.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know, you know, what you're into, if you're into, like, affirmations, or crystals, or, you know, anything that'll, uh, you know, get you through, but...
[49:40.760 --> 49:43.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, actually, I am into crystals, and that's what got me into trouble on the first one.
[49:43.800 --> 49:45.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I, I know, but, uh...
[49:45.960 --> 49:53.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you know, the way things are going, even meditation crystals will be at law someday by the official, uh, religion of the country.
[49:53.540 --> 49:58.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: But anyway, I'm glad you're in good spirits, and take care of your tuberculosis and everything, and, uh...
[49:58.440 --> 50:00.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't really have that, but...
[50:00.180 --> 50:01.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's call that rumor right now.
[50:01.420 --> 50:01.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[50:01.700 --> 50:02.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: I tested negative.
[50:02.400 --> 50:03.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, cool.
[50:03.280 --> 50:15.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I want you to know that besides the hacker community, the WBAI community, you also have, such as me, a large contingent of Wacko, the Wacko community behind you.
[50:15.900 --> 50:21.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: So stay well, and as soon as you get ad, Phiber will take you to that pizza place in Queens that he went to.
[50:21.800 --> 50:22.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay?
[50:22.260 --> 50:24.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, that'll be the traditional after-prison place.
[50:24.380 --> 50:25.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Take care, guys.
[50:25.240 --> 50:25.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[50:25.640 --> 50:26.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for calling.
[50:27.400 --> 50:29.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: A message from a self-aware Wacko there.
[50:30.340 --> 50:31.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, uh...
[50:31.120 --> 50:34.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm sure the Wackos who don't claim to be Wackos are supporting you as well.
[50:35.460 --> 50:36.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[50:36.320 --> 50:36.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh...
[50:36.760 --> 50:38.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have time for one more phone call.
[50:38.960 --> 50:39.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[50:39.580 --> 50:39.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on.
[50:40.420 --> 50:40.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hello.
[50:41.040 --> 50:41.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: How you doing?
[50:41.640 --> 50:43.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm fine, thank you very much.
[50:43.320 --> 50:49.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm glad I got through because I want to really say thank you very much, um, to, uh, Bernie.
[50:50.340 --> 51:01.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, due to him, I heard the name of the lawyer that defended him, and kind of, uh, recommended him to another friend that's in trouble, and he might pick up his case.
[51:01.420 --> 51:02.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: I wanted to ask him something.
[51:03.240 --> 51:08.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: He says that anything that is reading material can be sent through the regular mail?
[51:09.300 --> 51:09.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, yes.
[51:10.100 --> 51:13.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Regular mail can be sent to me here at the prison.
[51:13.640 --> 51:15.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do you still have the address I gave in the air a little while ago?
[51:16.020 --> 51:17.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't get the zip code.
[51:17.860 --> 51:20.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: I got almost Doylestown, and then I didn't get the last.
[51:20.940 --> 51:24.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's Doylestown, PA, 1-8-9-0-1.
[51:25.220 --> 51:33.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, the only caveat is you should write the words reading materials on the outside of the package if you're mailing, uh, books or, or magazines.
[51:33.640 --> 51:33.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's all.
[51:33.900 --> 51:34.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[51:34.440 --> 51:41.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Because for my friend, which is in New Jersey, across the, the way, everything has to come from the publishers itself.
[51:41.920 --> 51:43.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: They, they don't let anything else that is, you know...
[51:43.900 --> 51:45.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is this friend of yours in federal prison?
[51:46.160 --> 51:47.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, it's, uh, county jail.
[51:48.480 --> 51:50.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Which, uh, can I ask which county jail it is?
[51:50.420 --> 51:51.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: Tandem, New Jersey.
[51:51.600 --> 51:52.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, I'm familiar with that.
[51:52.780 --> 51:56.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've met several people who've been in and out of there over the past year.
[51:56.440 --> 52:01.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's, it's been interesting, uh, uh, I guess you could call it a railroad system of sorts.
[52:01.460 --> 52:10.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, you run into people who've been shifted through different prisons across the country, and you get, you start to get familiar with other institutions, uh, characteristics, without ever having been there.
[52:10.440 --> 52:15.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, yes, many prisons have a rule that any reading materials must be sent directly to the publisher.
[52:15.540 --> 52:25.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's quite inconvenient, but, uh, you just have to, uh, send a letter to the publisher with payment to say, hey, please, uh, please send this book or magazine to this address and hope that, uh, it gets there.
[52:26.040 --> 52:27.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: We, uh, we're just about out of time now.
[52:27.780 --> 52:34.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: By the way, Bernie, I should tell you that, uh, the book that we were talking about, speaking of publishers, uh, last week, uh, we were able to track down a copy of it.
[52:34.340 --> 52:37.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't have it here yet, but, uh, the book on the Secret Service.
[52:37.400 --> 52:38.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is that you inside the White House?
[52:38.560 --> 52:39.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, inside the White House, I believe.
[52:40.140 --> 52:42.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's got a lot of interesting Secret Service information in it.
[52:42.420 --> 52:48.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: So we got a copy of that, and we will be talking to people, uh, in the very near future concerning that book.
[52:48.540 --> 52:51.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, I want to thank you for, uh, for being a part of, uh, the show again.
[52:51.240 --> 52:54.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: I want to, uh, wish you luck for, uh, you know, for the week ahead.
[52:54.500 --> 52:56.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I guess we'll talk to you next, uh, next Tuesday.
[52:58.060 --> 52:58.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[52:58.600 --> 52:58.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.