Off The Hook - 1996-05-28

[00:23.460 --> 00:32.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And don't forget, another action-packed hour of Jerry Brown comes your way tomorrow night at 7 o'clock here on radio station WBAI.
[00:39.410 --> 00:46.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: The machine efficiency is around the order of what we term unity and beyond.
[00:47.290 --> 00:52.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: And unity indicates an efficiency of 100%.
[00:52.910 --> 00:55.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Paul Williams here for UFO Desk.
[00:56.090 --> 01:03.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: Join us Monday morning as we discuss machines that run with little or no heat loss.
[01:03.490 --> 01:07.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they're called over-unity machines.
[01:07.710 --> 01:10.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: They fly in the face of thermodynamic laws.
[01:11.570 --> 01:24.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: Join me as I interview Dr. Robert Adams and Captain Kathy, both of New Zealand, and both pioneers in the field of new science and over-unity machines.
[01:24.530 --> 01:32.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: Monday morning, June 10th, at 1 a.m., at the top of Sidney Smith's Carrier Wave.
[01:32.490 --> 01:35.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, you are invited.
[01:40.930 --> 01:41.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's 8 o'clock.
[01:41.850 --> 01:43.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're listening to WBAI in New York.
[01:43.450 --> 01:48.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: And while we may not be flying in the face of thermodynamic laws right now, we do fly in the face of some federal ones.
[01:49.170 --> 01:50.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's time for Off the Hook.
[01:56.520 --> 01:58.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:58.760 --> 02:00.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[02:01.760 --> 02:03.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: I cut myself while shaving.
[02:04.520 --> 02:06.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now I can't make a cough.
[02:07.140 --> 02:09.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: It couldn't get much worse.
[02:09.720 --> 02:11.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: But if it could, it would.
[02:11.880 --> 02:14.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, Billy Bump would the best expect the worst.
[02:15.200 --> 02:17.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: I hope that's understood.
[02:17.220 --> 02:18.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: But Billy Bump!
[02:50.740 --> 02:52.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:52.380 --> 02:54.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is Off the Hook.
[02:55.620 --> 02:56.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm Emmanuel Goldstein.
[02:56.980 --> 02:59.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be together for the next hour or so.
[02:59.620 --> 03:05.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Updating you on all kinds of things involving computer hackers, the Internet, the phone system, and other things.
[03:07.320 --> 03:08.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hopefully, we'll be hearing from Bernie S.
[03:09.140 --> 03:09.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: pretty soon.
[03:09.580 --> 03:18.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: He is still in federal prison in Pennsylvania, locked up for having devices that go beep and other dangerous things like that.
[03:19.600 --> 03:21.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we've been following this story for over a year.
[03:22.080 --> 03:25.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's incredible how long it's gone on, and it looks like it'll be going on for even longer.
[03:26.090 --> 03:28.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we'll give you all the details on that as soon as we get them.
[03:29.360 --> 03:32.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, you may have... we haven't been on the air, actually, in three weeks now.
[03:32.440 --> 03:35.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we'll be trying to take more phone calls than usual.
[03:35.200 --> 03:42.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we might open up the phones a little early so we can trade stories and spread information around.
[03:42.300 --> 03:47.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: One of the things you may have heard about, though, is a big story a few days ago.
[03:48.080 --> 03:56.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was on every news program, on every radio station, lead story in many places, how all these hackers are getting into the Pentagon.
[03:57.600 --> 03:59.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I don't know how they're able to do it.
[03:59.700 --> 04:00.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just the most incredible thing.
[04:01.080 --> 04:02.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was surprised.
[04:02.300 --> 04:03.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was thunderstruck.
[04:03.860 --> 04:06.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: I heard it on the radio, and I said, my God, this is incredible.
[04:06.460 --> 04:12.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're talking about 250,000 attacks on the military computer system.
[04:13.020 --> 04:14.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: 250,000.
[04:14.400 --> 04:18.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And get this, a 65% success rate.
[04:19.060 --> 04:24.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: 65% of 250,000 attacks on the Pentagon, and they were successful.
[04:24.620 --> 04:27.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I don't know.
[04:27.000 --> 04:32.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, I have computer systems with no passwords that people have more trouble getting into.
[04:33.080 --> 04:33.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay?
[04:33.540 --> 04:34.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's...
[04:34.000 --> 04:35.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know what kind of people are attacking.
[04:36.060 --> 04:39.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, actually, at the time, I didn't know what kind of people were attacking these particular systems.
[04:40.560 --> 04:47.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some sort of uber hacker that no one has ever encountered before that is able to somehow get through everything.
[04:48.060 --> 04:55.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, as is the case with the media virtually all the time, the story wasn't quite what it seemed.
[04:56.120 --> 04:57.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were talking.
[04:57.460 --> 04:59.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: You would never know this by reading the story.
[04:59.200 --> 05:03.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, actually, let's look at the New York Times, because that's what we consider the bastion of accuracy, right?
[05:04.700 --> 05:05.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, yeah.
[05:05.940 --> 05:20.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, government investigators warned today, and this today being May 22nd, that computer hackers cruising the Internet posed a serious and growing threat to national security, with the Pentagon suffering as many as 250,000 attacks on its computers last year.
[05:20.180 --> 05:28.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, the investigators from the General Accounting Office offered scenarios, which is, uh, something that the average American can panic over.
[05:29.340 --> 05:39.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Scenarios in which terrorists or enemy governments might break into Defense Department computer networks and shut them down, cutting off communications between military commanders in the middle of a war.
[05:39.800 --> 05:48.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I think our government certainly is going to be going around breaking into other systems, because they have their hands full just trying to, uh, keep people from getting into theirs with 65% success rate.
[05:48.120 --> 06:01.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, according to, uh, to the investigators who, uh, prepared a report for two congressional committees, there will become an increasingly attractive way for terrorists or adversaries to wage attacks.
[06:01.720 --> 06:04.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: The potential for catastrophic damage is great.
[06:05.160 --> 06:18.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Pentagon did not dispute the findings of the study, although Defense Department officials said they knew of no instance, no instance in which hackers had obtained secret information or gained access to computer networks that control the firing of weapons.
[06:18.600 --> 06:24.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: I would, I would like to believe that there are no computer systems that control firing of weapons on the Internet.
[06:25.140 --> 06:27.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I just would sort of like to believe that.
[06:27.740 --> 06:30.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, then again, I have wild, wild dreams.
[06:31.060 --> 06:34.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm sure that there's, there's something on there controlling something nuclear.
[06:34.680 --> 06:35.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who knows?
[06:35.780 --> 06:45.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, while the Pentagon is, uh, is, uh, developing encryption devices that show promise in defeating computer hackers, it's an odd way of phrasing it, isn't it?
[06:45.080 --> 06:48.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: It seems how computer hackers are the ones developing encryption that the government is trying to defeat.
[06:50.000 --> 07:02.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, regardless, the accounting office, which is the investigative arm of Congress, warned that none of the proposed technical solutions was foolproof, and that the military's current security program was dated, inconsistent, and incomplete.
[07:04.200 --> 07:09.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Susan Hansen, the department spokesman, said, We are certainly well aware that people are breaking in or trying to hack into our system.
[07:10.860 --> 07:23.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, the explosion in the use of the Internet and the increasing power and sophistication of small desktop computers has compounded the Pentagon's problems, creating a worldwide army of hackers.
[07:24.900 --> 07:25.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Worldwide army?
[07:25.820 --> 07:26.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: You should see the uniform.
[07:26.980 --> 07:30.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, able to break into all but the most secure computer networks.
[07:33.520 --> 07:37.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: The report cited... I mean, they have enough trouble getting on IRC, a lot of these people.
[07:37.420 --> 07:42.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know who these... who these people are that are able to methodically break in, you know?
[07:42.140 --> 07:46.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe there's some master race of hackers someplace that nobody knows about.
[07:46.620 --> 08:00.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: The report cited Defense Department estimates that the number of unauthorized efforts to, uh, to enter its computer systems, attacks in the parlance of, uh, cyberspace, was doubling every year and may have reached 250,000 in 1995.
[08:00.580 --> 08:03.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Most of them made through the Internet.
[08:03.980 --> 08:09.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Pentagon figures suggest that in about 65% of those efforts, hackers were able to gain entry to a computer network.
[08:10.780 --> 08:14.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, now, this is about the time when you should set the story straight.
[08:16.720 --> 08:33.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: According to other reports that we have since gotten, and actually reports that we've been hearing about beforehand, too, and I hadn't really linked the two together until now, uh, the, the Air Force has been engaged in some, some kind of, um, uh, testing of military computer systems.
[08:33.950 --> 08:38.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think they've been testing, um, testing the Navy or the Army or something like that.
[08:40.950 --> 08:50.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And during this, uh, this particular, um, study, I guess, where, where they were testing the security, they had a success rate of about 65%.
[08:50.600 --> 08:53.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were hacking their own computers.
[08:53.380 --> 08:57.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what they did was, they, they somehow translated that into hackers.
[08:57.840 --> 09:04.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: They tried to figure out, I guess, the number of people attempting, or, or maybe connecting to their website, or who knows what.
[09:04.420 --> 09:06.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: They got 250,000 out of somewhere.
[09:07.070 --> 09:14.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they said, well, since we were able to do it 65% of the time, there's no reason to expect that these hackers can't do it 65% of the time.
[09:14.120 --> 09:19.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's apparently how they were able to, uh, to, to get that wild and crazy number.
[09:20.100 --> 09:27.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because only 4% of, um, of, of the test attacks were detected, according to, to this particular study.
[09:28.360 --> 09:32.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Only 27% of those, about one in every, uh, 150 were ever reported.
[09:32.660 --> 09:43.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, obviously, we're, we're, we're talking about something that they have some kind of knowledge about for them to come up with a number, since, um, since it's all within the same military-industrial complex there.
[09:43.340 --> 09:52.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, the thing we have to worry about, though, with regards to this story, and this was the very first thing that a lot of us said when we saw it, you know, there's no real story here.
[09:52.160 --> 09:53.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is, this is just nonsense.
[09:54.180 --> 09:58.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just numbers being thrown around with no evidence, no, uh, no actual focus.
[09:58.320 --> 10:01.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, who has broken into what, where, how?
[10:01.500 --> 10:02.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: There was none of that.
[10:02.680 --> 10:04.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, what is the purpose of the story?
[10:04.680 --> 10:11.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the purpose of the story in an election year is to, is to, uh, get people thinking that dramatic steps have to be taken.
[10:12.720 --> 10:18.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just like last year, when, uh, when the story about Kevin Mitnick hit page one of the New York Times.
[10:19.860 --> 10:26.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: No one had, uh, really heard of him recently, you know, and, uh, we'd heard of him several years ago, but nobody knew he was on the run.
[10:26.960 --> 10:31.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: All of a sudden, he became America's most wanted, uh, fugitive in the cyber world.
[10:33.210 --> 10:41.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, it made the FBI, it made all the organizations look for him all the harder, and, and when they did find him, it made them come down on him a lot harder as well.
[10:41.920 --> 10:43.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, at this point, he may never get out of prison.
[10:43.940 --> 10:44.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't know.
[10:45.020 --> 10:46.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we may have Bernie S.
[10:46.880 --> 10:47.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: online.
[10:48.300 --> 10:51.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's see if, uh, we can do this without, uh, screwing it up too badly.
[10:52.840 --> 10:53.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[10:54.420 --> 10:57.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: AT&T has a collect call from...
[10:57.800 --> 10:58.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie S.
[10:59.480 --> 11:01.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: ...at the Bust County Correctional Facility.
[11:02.660 --> 11:05.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: To receive this call, hang up.
[11:06.020 --> 11:12.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you accept this call, do not use three-way or call waiting features, or you will be disconnected.
[11:12.380 --> 11:15.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: To accept this call, dial one now.
[11:16.340 --> 11:17.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[11:18.040 --> 11:19.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bernie S., welcome to the show.
[11:20.160 --> 11:20.880]  Hello.
[11:21.720 --> 11:40.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: We were just discussing, uh, before we get into, into your plight, we were discussing the most recent story about, um, 250,000 hackers all lined up in some kind of worldwide army, uh, that are methodically hacking into the Defense Department, or at least the story that you may get if you read the newspapers and listen to,
[11:40.320 --> 11:41.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh, to mainstream radio.
[11:41.880 --> 11:43.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Have you heard about this story?
[11:43.540 --> 11:50.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, I have a radio, uh, and actually now a television, uh, in my cell, thanks to some good friends on the outside.
[11:50.040 --> 12:05.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, I just, uh, found it interesting, but not surprising, that the media and the government is blaming the hackers for all these security loopholes in the systems that, uh, that are, uh, apparently very insecure.
[12:06.320 --> 12:14.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now, were you aware that, that these numbers are based upon, uh, defense departments hacking themselves, that they've been doing this over the past, uh, 18 months or so?
[12:15.380 --> 12:25.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: I didn't know these numbers were based on that, but I, I'm aware that they have these so-called tiger teams that, uh, are responsible for, uh, trying to penetrate their own systems and find that where the holes are.
[12:25.480 --> 12:28.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: But apparently, uh, uh, um, teenagers can be better at it than they are.
[12:29.400 --> 12:34.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, they're saying that very few of these are detected, so you have to wonder where to get the numbers if they're not detected.
[12:35.040 --> 12:41.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, but the other thing, when you see a 65% success rate, you have to, you have to wonder just who exactly are they dealing with?
[12:41.380 --> 12:45.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not, uh, not your average, everyday person coming in on the Internet, that's for sure.
[12:45.800 --> 12:58.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I thought the numbers were, uh, unbelievably high, but, uh, you know, you have to take it, take into consideration, these are government, governmentally, government, uh, issued numbers and not necessarily accurate numbers.
[12:58.660 --> 12:59.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[12:59.080 --> 13:08.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, there was a, there was a theory going around that these people were actually talking about hits on a website, and, uh, maybe 65% of the people figured out how to type in the URL correctly, and that's what they were talking about.
[13:08.860 --> 13:09.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who knows?
[13:09.320 --> 13:20.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've actually seen warnings on websites belonging to military computers, uh, where they say that you're, you're now, uh, in government territory, and if you do something bad, uh, if you download the wrong file, you could get in trouble.
[13:20.960 --> 13:24.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, on a website, they don't really get it as far as what the web is all about.
[13:24.740 --> 13:28.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I guess that, that puts me in one of the 250,000 if I actually went that far.
[13:28.660 --> 13:31.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: You could probably count for several hundred hits yourself.
[13:31.540 --> 13:32.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, maybe not several hundred.
[13:33.060 --> 13:38.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I, I don't stay where, where I'm not wanted, uh, but it's, um, it's, it's a scary thing.
[13:38.680 --> 13:43.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: We were theorizing as to what the real purpose of releasing this story was.
[13:44.800 --> 13:52.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I'd like to know, uh, I, apparently it was part of a, uh, the story was, was reporting a release of a congressional report.
[13:52.860 --> 13:53.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Am I correct in that?
[13:54.040 --> 14:01.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it was, uh, General Accounting Office, uh, had released a rather, I guess, scathing report of, uh, Defense Department, um, insecurity.
[14:02.060 --> 14:05.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the Defense Department, the Pentagon did not, uh, refute it.
[14:05.720 --> 14:06.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh...
[14:06.520 --> 14:11.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I guess they're, uh, they're looking for money, as the government always is, as the military always is.
[14:11.440 --> 14:17.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're probably looking for money to, uh, to buy, uh, new and better computers, which will supposedly be more secure, I guess.
[14:18.320 --> 14:23.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, they have a steady supply of computers from, uh, from people in this country when they raid their houses and take their computers.
[14:24.020 --> 14:24.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: They never give them back.
[14:25.380 --> 14:30.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I guess if that's not good enough, though, they will use this money to get even, even better machines.
[14:30.620 --> 14:40.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm more concerned, though, with what's going to happen to people when, uh, they're accused of, of, of hacking, of being a hacker or a potential hacker, and people remember stories like this.
[14:40.420 --> 14:52.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, they think that, that, uh, they, they see terrorist scenarios and foreign governments and, and, and, you know, all kinds of, of evil plots that have, but somehow hackers are being tied into it.
[14:52.300 --> 15:09.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, when you get government officials who have, uh, certain prestige or esteem, like secret service agents or military officials that say, uh, hackers are, uh, are a danger to the, to society and, uh, and, uh, like, one, one step, uh, above a terrorist,
[15:09.980 --> 15:19.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: that sort of thing, as I was called in, uh, in court earlier this year, um, which is ludicrous, as anybody who knows me, I'm capable of violence or harming anyone.
[15:19.880 --> 15:22.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: But in any case, uh, people tend to believe this stuff.
[15:23.080 --> 15:26.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, uh, it's, it's unfortunate.
[15:26.300 --> 15:27.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's just more misinformation.
[15:28.000 --> 15:35.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you see, the problem is, as you say, you know, we know you, we know who you are, uh, we know, you know, what you're capable of and what you're not capable of.
[15:35.600 --> 15:41.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the average person does not know computer hackers, does not know anyone who's involved in this.
[15:41.160 --> 15:43.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: They just read these stories and hear about it.
[15:43.840 --> 15:50.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And of course, when somebody, uh, refers to somebody as a computer hacker, they naturally will assume the worst.
[15:50.960 --> 16:03.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, this, this could be why prosecuting you went through without any objection from, from any, any major group or, or, uh, without much attention in the press, because you were referred to as one of those hackers.
[16:03.480 --> 16:06.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And therefore, uh, you deserve the, the, the worst treatment possible.
[16:06.780 --> 16:20.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: One of the reasons I did not, uh, end up taking my case before a jury, a jury trial, is that, uh, my attorney and I came to the conclusion that, uh, just the, uh, public perception of what a computer hacker is was damning in and of itself.
[16:21.500 --> 16:27.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that alone may have been enough for a jury to figure I was guilty, whether, you know, regardless of what I, what I did.
[16:28.460 --> 16:32.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, that was a big consideration in my decision to plead guilty.
[16:32.980 --> 16:42.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think you hit the nail on the head there because that's, that's exactly what a lot of people, uh, uh, perceive hackers as, you know, as soon as you call somebody that, that's a very negative thing.
[16:42.700 --> 16:47.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's, that's what we're trying with this program, with, with 2600 and with all kinds of other things.
[16:47.840 --> 16:49.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're trying to change that.
[16:49.160 --> 16:57.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're trying to, uh, reach out to people, you know, average everyday people like all of us and, um, and show them what hacking is really all about.
[16:58.340 --> 16:59.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a shame.
[16:59.280 --> 17:08.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, you know, I started fooling with this stuff back when, as you did as well, um, and many of our friends have, when, when the term hacker was considered an honorable thing.
[17:08.490 --> 17:17.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that somehow this term has been borrowed and, and, and misapplied by the media and the government into portraying people as a, as evil.
[17:17.990 --> 17:22.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's, you know, there are evil people who hack, but that doesn't mean that all hackers are evil.
[17:22.920 --> 17:24.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's a, it's just false logic.
[17:24.920 --> 17:25.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[17:25.340 --> 17:32.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, there's evil people everywhere, but, you know, I'd have to say, uh, in the hacker community, I see a lot less evil people than in most other communities.
[17:32.440 --> 17:33.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've got to agree with you there.
[17:33.770 --> 17:35.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bernie S., tell us, uh, what's up with your case.
[17:35.580 --> 17:36.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: We haven't heard from you in three weeks.
[17:36.970 --> 17:42.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, last we, uh, last time we talked, we were looking at May 30th as a date you were to be released.
[17:42.750 --> 17:44.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: However, I don't believe that is going to happen, is it?
[17:44.640 --> 17:45.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, unfortunately.
[17:46.270 --> 17:52.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, I finally, uh, last week, uh, through some supporters outside, got a copy of some, uh, paperwork.
[17:52.510 --> 18:00.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, actually, I got a copy of a document called a, uh, a detainer, a document that was sent from, uh, Northampton County Prison to Delaware County Prison last year.
[18:01.290 --> 18:07.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, the date of that detainer was, uh, five days later, or six days later than I had thought it was dated.
[18:07.560 --> 18:15.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: So the bottom line is my, uh, my court-ordered minimum release date should be June 5th, not May 30th.
[18:15.800 --> 18:22.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: But unfortunately, even that hasn't been, uh, uh, properly calculated by, uh, by my keepers, or captors.
[18:23.220 --> 18:29.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, so they still think they're, they don't have to even consider releasing me until June 12th.
[18:30.030 --> 18:31.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've, uh, sent letters.
[18:31.790 --> 18:32.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: My attorney has sent letters.
[18:33.080 --> 18:42.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've had family members make phone calls on my behalf to try to get these people to do their jobs and, and simply read the sentencing judge's, uh, order and transcript.
[18:42.740 --> 18:53.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: I believe you were sitting there and heard the judge ordered that I would receive credit for time I'd served last year on an original state charge, which was later dropped when, uh, the federal government picked up the case, namely the state of service.
[18:53.820 --> 19:00.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: So there were 35 days there I was held while I was detained, um, by Northampton County.
[19:00.620 --> 19:01.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's complicated.
[19:01.320 --> 19:04.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: The bottom line is the judge ordered I should receive credit for, for that time.
[19:04.460 --> 19:09.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm not being credited for that time yet because my captors haven't bothered to read the, the court transcripts.
[19:10.030 --> 19:10.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[19:10.200 --> 19:12.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: So who is it who has not done their job in this case?
[19:13.400 --> 19:14.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a very good question.
[19:14.420 --> 19:21.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I keep getting a lot of finger pointing and, and, uh, excuses from, from both people at Bucks County Prison and Northampton County Prison here in Eastern Pennsylvania.
[19:22.360 --> 19:26.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, the people in, uh, Northampton County say, well, they don't see it that way.
[19:27.000 --> 19:30.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, but they admit, though, that they haven't read the, uh, the transcript.
[19:30.240 --> 19:39.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're just basing, uh, my time, my sentence based on time that I was incarcerated since January 12th of this year, or re-incarcerated January 12th of this year.
[19:39.100 --> 19:42.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they're not counting any prior time that the judge ordered I should receive credit for.
[19:42.400 --> 19:46.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's basically just denying that, uh, that the judge said this.
[19:46.620 --> 19:51.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I've mailed them copies of the transcript and they're just apparently not, uh, bothering to read it.
[19:51.530 --> 20:03.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: I would say that the, the people in the records department at Northampton County Prison or the warden at Northampton County Prison would, uh, would be the people who are responsible for, uh, getting this information to the Pennsylvania state parole board.
[20:03.800 --> 20:10.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: So the parole board is aware of the fact that I should be eligible for parole next week, not next month, which I still don't think is going to happen.
[20:10.800 --> 20:13.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, so far there's been no progress.
[20:13.580 --> 20:18.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's been just an extremely frustrating experience when it affects your personal freedom.
[20:18.580 --> 20:22.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, I feel really, pretty, uh, depressed right now about it all.
[20:22.960 --> 20:32.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, not, not to, not to sound overly conspiracy minded, but do you think that there's some sort of outside influence in getting these people not to do their jobs, namely from the Secret Service?
[20:33.200 --> 20:39.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yesterday, um, actually this morning, I came to the conclusion that that was a possibility.
[20:39.460 --> 20:44.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, several people had brought that up to me over the past few weeks, and I just pooh-poohed it.
[20:44.420 --> 20:53.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's like, nah, I don't want to give the Secret Service or whoever more credit than they're, than they're due as far as, uh, pulling off some sort of thing like that.
[20:53.560 --> 21:01.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, some of the answers I got from a prison counselor today led me to believe that there was deliberately, there was deliberate mishandling of this.
[21:01.980 --> 21:04.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's the only conclusion I could logically come to.
[21:04.600 --> 21:26.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, it's all speculation, but, uh, I do know, as a fact, as a witness to the Secret Service's being involved in a manner in my case earlier in such a way as to cause me to be labeled and sentenced much more severely than was, was, you know, factually,
[21:26.060 --> 21:29.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: uh, um, warranted.
[21:29.620 --> 21:38.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, um, it wouldn't surprise me that they've, uh, the Secret Service might have got involved in this case and tried to, uh, just put the kibosh on this being handled.
[21:38.580 --> 21:43.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, it's aches for my dot, my papers to be put to the bottom of the pile and it gets delayed that much longer.
[21:43.620 --> 21:44.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: But that's all speculation.
[21:44.540 --> 21:46.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't want to place any blame yet.
[21:46.900 --> 21:53.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I don't think I'd ever be able to prove such a thing because I'm sure it wouldn't, it wouldn't be stupid enough to leave a paper trail if that, they just make a phone call here or there.
[21:54.600 --> 21:55.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[21:55.540 --> 22:03.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, we've seen over, as you say, over the past, uh, year, uh, how interested the Secret Service is in keeping you behind bars.
[22:03.180 --> 22:11.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we do know that they're very upset by the existence of this radio program, the fact that you have found a way to speak out and, and, and voice what is happening to you.
[22:11.860 --> 22:14.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we know they want to put a stop to that.
[22:14.200 --> 22:19.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: It seems kind of, kind of weird that they would try to do that by keeping you in prison so that you, you spoke out even more.
[22:19.160 --> 22:30.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's really self-defeating for them to do that because there's going to be more negative publicity heaps on them as a result of my being held here past what, the time that I'm sentenced to stay here.
[22:30.840 --> 22:32.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, I don't think they think that way.
[22:33.000 --> 22:44.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't really think they, uh, care as much about the negative publicity as they do about, uh, setting an example to, to would-be hackers to not, uh, not to fool around with technology.
[22:45.100 --> 22:46.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: They would prefer people not fool around with.
[22:47.600 --> 22:51.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, it's hard to say what it is they're thinking, and they may not be thinking in a unified way.
[22:51.660 --> 22:58.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: There might be some elements within the organization that feel strongly about something and other elements that don't even know about it.
[22:58.320 --> 23:11.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Regardless, though, even if they are not involved in this particular aspect, uh, we can't forget what has happened in the past, and we must, uh, uh, call them to account for what it is that they've done in the past, and we can do that through, uh, uh,
[23:11.400 --> 23:11.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: elected officials.
[23:11.880 --> 23:22.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: We can do that by just telling other people, by getting the word out in other ways, and by making sure that they don't have, uh, the, uh, the possibility of doing this to other people because it will happen to others.
[23:22.640 --> 23:24.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: It will probably happen to people we know.
[23:25.080 --> 23:30.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, a couple of years ago when Fiberoptic went to prison, you helped, uh, helped us take him there.
[23:30.880 --> 23:32.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: We, uh, we even stayed at your house for a little while.
[23:33.340 --> 23:38.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Even then, we didn't have any idea that it would happen again to one of us.
[23:38.180 --> 23:41.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: It just seemed so far removed from, from a possibility.
[23:41.700 --> 23:44.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: So this is something that, uh, we've been down this road before.
[23:45.160 --> 23:47.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I have little doubt we'll be down it again.
[23:48.160 --> 23:50.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we don't know who they'll pick next as a target.
[23:51.200 --> 23:56.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thing is, we have to speak out and prevent them from, from being able to run roughshod over our rights like this.
[23:56.600 --> 23:57.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: I agree with you.
[23:57.920 --> 24:15.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've, I've been deliberating whether it's, it's, it's, uh, wise or not for me to have people start, uh, calling and let, and, and writing letters on my behalf to, uh, to my captors starting next week when I, when I officially should be eligible for parole.
[24:15.600 --> 24:21.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: As far as I'm concerned, when one is eligible for parole, they should at least be reviewed for parole, not just, not considered at all.
[24:22.280 --> 24:31.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, I'm wondering whether it would harm me or help me to, uh, start a, a phone and letter rating campaign on my behalf starting next, uh, next Tuesday or Wednesday.
[24:31.620 --> 24:33.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, I wonder what you, what you thought about that.
[24:33.860 --> 24:35.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I, I, you know, I'm up for it.
[24:35.580 --> 24:36.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I'm up for it.
[24:36.460 --> 24:37.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I, I know our listeners are as well.
[24:38.600 --> 24:40.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I'll see, uh, I'll see what my lawyer has to say.
[24:40.880 --> 24:42.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Actually, he's on vacation right now.
[24:42.320 --> 24:44.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: We'll be back till next, uh, Tuesday.
[24:44.380 --> 24:46.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, when he gets back, I'll see what he has to say about that.
[24:47.080 --> 24:47.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[24:48.380 --> 24:48.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[24:48.940 --> 24:51.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, lawyers tend to advise you not to do things like that.
[24:51.580 --> 24:51.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've noticed.
[24:52.200 --> 24:54.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I'm sure he'll say, well, you had nothing to gain by doing that.
[24:54.600 --> 24:56.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, he's not the one in prison, you know.
[24:56.440 --> 24:57.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nothing else has worked.
[24:57.480 --> 24:59.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're the one calling the shots here, actually, you know.
[24:59.440 --> 24:59.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: True.
[24:59.960 --> 25:05.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of us really, uh, have to take it upon ourselves to, to, uh, take action in this particular case.
[25:05.760 --> 25:08.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, I mean, a legal route has not worked.
[25:09.020 --> 25:15.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, going through courts and things like that, obviously, uh, you know, the game is, is heavily favored for, for the opposition.
[25:15.980 --> 25:17.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we have to think of other strategies.
[25:18.120 --> 25:26.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I may have a list of the names and telephone numbers for next week's program if, uh, if it looks like I'm not going to be considered by next week for, uh, for all.
[25:27.800 --> 25:28.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[25:29.140 --> 25:33.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, well, I guess, uh, I have one more news story to read, then we'll take some, uh, some phone calls.
[25:33.740 --> 25:35.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[25:36.100 --> 25:42.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, this sort of relates to, um, to people on the web, organizations on the web who don't have a clue.
[25:43.040 --> 25:44.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, the Pentagon may be one of them.
[25:44.700 --> 25:49.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who knows if they think that 250,000 hackers are, are, uh, are trying to get into their, their website.
[25:49.680 --> 25:50.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who knows?
[25:50.780 --> 25:54.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, this, uh, this reflects something from today's New York Times.
[25:54.560 --> 25:55.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: The web review.
[25:56.000 --> 25:57.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, heard of the web review, haven't we?
[25:57.840 --> 25:58.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[25:58.440 --> 26:03.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: One of the best known of the magazines found only on the Internet has stopped publishing.
[26:05.640 --> 26:06.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[26:06.400 --> 26:07.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: I heard many gasps.
[26:07.720 --> 26:08.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're out there in radio land.
[26:09.040 --> 26:09.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[26:10.060 --> 26:16.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: They've stopped publishing, then they have issued an unusual appeal for financing that draws on two models of voluntary contributions.
[26:17.620 --> 26:18.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Guess what?
[26:18.180 --> 26:19.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: One of those models is.
[26:19.220 --> 26:19.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[26:19.720 --> 26:20.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Public radio.
[26:21.020 --> 26:24.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Where some supporters pay and the product is free to all.
[26:24.780 --> 26:30.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or, like shareware, where users who benefit from a computer program are expected to send payments voluntarily.
[26:31.600 --> 26:37.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, this is because of, uh, of, of users' hostility to subscription fees on the World Wide Web.
[26:37.960 --> 26:39.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I knew this was never going to work.
[26:39.380 --> 26:41.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I knew people would never pay to be on the web.
[26:41.900 --> 27:00.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, all these, all these, um, commercial entities think that, uh, we're just going to jump into it and somehow pay for something that we've become used to for Pioneers in publishing on the web are in an economic quandary that is expected to kill many more sites before the computer network becomes a truly mass medium.
[27:01.180 --> 27:06.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: So many sites are free that only a few with special niches have been able to charge users a fee.
[27:07.140 --> 27:13.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Web review began last July and was published weekly with a daily update known as a webzine because it had no paper counterpart.
[27:13.940 --> 27:16.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was one of the major forums on the web.
[27:16.200 --> 27:25.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: An issue might contain a lament about the dearth of poetry on the web or a rant about the spate of news coverage of pornographic or bomb-building sites.
[27:26.160 --> 27:37.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: The magazine said its main audience was web professionals, site builders, administrators, and programmers who had checked for the latest on esoteric topics like virtual reality modeling language or vector-based animation technology.
[27:38.500 --> 27:50.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: On May 17th, visitors who tapped into the review's site found a dear reader letter from the publisher, Dale P. Dougherty, announcing the webzine's final issue because advertisers were not covering publishing costs.
[27:50.500 --> 27:53.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, one thing you have to understand about publishing on the web...
[27:53.320 --> 27:57.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, there are costs, yes, but it's not like publishing something on paper.
[27:57.560 --> 28:05.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's a lot more expensive to publish something on paper and carry it around, distribute it, have people sell it at various places, and, you know, do all that kind of thing.
[28:05.860 --> 28:14.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: When you put something out onto a computer network, there's effort, yes, there's effort, there's art, design, there's things like that, but it's not the same thing.
[28:14.340 --> 28:18.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can't expect people to pay for that kind of access in the same manner.
[28:18.920 --> 28:20.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's just, it's not the same form.
[28:21.240 --> 28:26.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: The letter said that web review will return in June if 5,000 readers would pay $19.95 for a six-month subscription.
[28:27.820 --> 28:30.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: How will we know if we don't ask, the letter said?
[28:30.080 --> 28:35.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: As I said, you are voting on the future of the web, and what you will find there, web review is not alone in having these problems.
[28:36.980 --> 28:38.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, I wish them luck.
[28:39.320 --> 28:41.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And maybe they will get what they're looking for.
[28:41.820 --> 28:55.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I also think that there are a lot of people out there with access to the net who can do what web review has already done, and do it for nothing, or do it for very minimal costs, you know, find other ways to raise funds as well.
[28:56.340 --> 28:59.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: The web is something that is still obviously being constructed.
[28:59.860 --> 29:07.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: But what we have to remember, as we have to remember with the Internet and with computer analogies in general, it's just not the same thing as the real world.
[29:08.060 --> 29:16.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, accessing a computer is not walking into someone's house, and reading a zine on the web is not the same thing as going into a magazine store and buying one and reading it, or whatever.
[29:17.140 --> 29:17.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you think, Barney?
[29:17.860 --> 29:21.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think people are going to be willing to pay that much for such a service.
[29:21.980 --> 29:34.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think as people work out the protocols and technologies for billing people in very small increments for accessing web pages, that may be more feasible.
[29:34.760 --> 29:54.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: If it costs you one cent to access web review every time you do it, everybody who does it, I think would be probably willing to pay a penny for the information, and I'm sure they get more than the amount of money they're asking for now.
[29:54.480 --> 30:00.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: If it was handled, they have to work out that technology and the protocols and everything, and that's probably a little ways off then.
[30:01.100 --> 30:03.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right, these are the developing days.
[30:04.800 --> 30:07.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, nobody knows what's going to happen next, and that's the beauty of it.
[30:08.500 --> 30:09.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, let's take some phone calls.
[30:09.840 --> 30:12.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
[30:12.780 --> 30:13.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: The program is off the hook.
[30:14.060 --> 30:16.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're on until 9 o'clock.
[30:16.300 --> 30:16.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have Bernie S.
[30:17.140 --> 30:26.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: on the line, talking to us live from Northampton County Prison in Pennsylvania, where his presence has still been requested for at least another week.
[30:27.440 --> 30:29.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we'll, of course, be keeping an update on that.
[30:30.780 --> 30:31.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[30:32.580 --> 30:34.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Whoops, I didn't hit the right button.
[30:34.540 --> 30:35.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[30:36.340 --> 30:36.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello?
[30:36.960 --> 30:37.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, go ahead.
[30:37.680 --> 30:38.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi, guys.
[30:38.360 --> 30:39.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: A few things.
[30:39.400 --> 30:41.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: First, Bernie, how is your health?
[30:41.360 --> 30:43.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: You don't seem to be coughing or anything.
[30:43.560 --> 30:44.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm doing much better.
[30:44.620 --> 30:45.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is it Don Hell?
[30:45.940 --> 30:47.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm glad to hear that.
[30:47.480 --> 30:49.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Also, what happened last time you reported?
[30:50.040 --> 30:57.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: You said your cellmate threatened to beat you up because he wanted his TV instead of yours, or how did that work out?
[30:57.760 --> 30:59.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Surprising thing happened, Don.
[30:59.840 --> 31:01.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is Don, isn't it?
[31:01.620 --> 31:02.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, me?
[31:02.620 --> 31:03.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, no.
[31:03.340 --> 31:04.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sorry, I...
[31:04.520 --> 31:06.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: What, do you have caller ID there, Bernie?
[31:06.600 --> 31:07.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't recognize the man's voice.
[31:07.940 --> 31:08.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, okay.
[31:08.740 --> 31:10.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, I don't have caller ID here.
[31:10.100 --> 31:10.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[31:10.760 --> 31:11.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: They don't have much here.
[31:13.200 --> 31:13.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: So what happened?
[31:14.020 --> 31:14.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: What happened?
[31:14.380 --> 31:19.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: I tried to reason with a guy, and that was futile for about three days.
[31:19.140 --> 31:32.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: And finally, I kept trying to reason with him, and finally he saw the error of his ways and said he apologized to me for being, I'll say politely, rude to me.
[31:32.500 --> 31:34.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he moved to another cell.
[31:34.360 --> 31:37.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was a power issue, and he wanted to take control of the situation.
[31:38.000 --> 31:44.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was willing to let him, and I made him feel that I wasn't afraid of him, which I wasn't.
[31:44.240 --> 31:46.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he backed down and left.
[31:46.760 --> 31:51.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I have another cellmate now who coincidentally was recently moved here from Northampton County prison.
[31:52.000 --> 31:55.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: He used to work in the kitchen there, so I somewhat knew him.
[31:55.500 --> 31:59.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not very well, but we get along just fine, and no problem.
[31:59.440 --> 32:08.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: So it was resolved peacefully, and just through mediation, it was resolved without any violence.
[32:08.580 --> 32:10.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I'm glad that that worked out that way.
[32:10.540 --> 32:11.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's great.
[32:11.200 --> 32:14.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, you know, your freedom is so close you can taste it.
[32:14.200 --> 32:19.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just, you know, at night you can, like, camp bikinis in Jones Beach because you'll be there before you know it.
[32:20.320 --> 32:25.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: One other thing, Emmanuel, I want to ask you a question about a friend of mine in AT&T.
[32:26.140 --> 32:30.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're aware AT&T has a Universal MasterCard, right?
[32:30.340 --> 32:31.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: I am very aware of that, yes.
[32:31.560 --> 32:43.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, my friend, like, had a Universal MasterCard, and for various reasons didn't want to pay and couldn't file bankruptcy because she had filed bankruptcy within seven years.
[32:43.440 --> 32:49.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: So she called them up pretending to be someone else, saying the person was dead.
[32:49.080 --> 32:50.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Please close the account.
[32:51.240 --> 32:52.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: They bought it.
[32:52.320 --> 32:56.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: They didn't ask for a death certificate or make any trouble.
[32:56.460 --> 33:00.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: They just sent a letter saying, we're sorry, so-and-so died, and blah, blah, blah.
[33:00.900 --> 33:05.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, that person currently has MCI as a long-distance carrier.
[33:05.280 --> 33:21.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: What she wants to know is if, for whatever reason, she wants to pick AT&T, you know, to get the free checks they sent at a Christmas time or whatever, is there sort of inter-office communication between AT&T, the phone carrier, and AT&T, the credit card?
[33:21.600 --> 33:23.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Like, would they be able to find out she's not dead?
[33:24.100 --> 33:27.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Or, like, should she just stick with MCI and not look for trouble?
[33:27.160 --> 33:30.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, well, you know, dead people get mail all the time.
[33:31.360 --> 33:36.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think they really, they have enough trouble keeping track of live people.
[33:36.200 --> 33:38.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think they really keep files on who's dead.
[33:38.200 --> 33:40.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, there's really only one way to find out.
[33:40.900 --> 33:48.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if, you know, if they raise questions, then, you know, I don't know, say that it was a mistake.
[33:48.660 --> 33:51.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, yeah, that's, yeah, my friend is a pretty shrewd cookie.
[33:52.000 --> 33:56.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Also, where's Fiber today, and when are you going to do the show on the MetroCard?
[33:57.060 --> 34:04.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we'll do the show on the MetroCard, I guess, as soon as, as soon as we all board a bus and play around with it.
[34:04.720 --> 34:06.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Have you been able to crack anything?
[34:06.640 --> 34:09.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Had a great opportunity to steal a bus the other day, but, uh...
[34:09.290 --> 34:09.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: What's that?
[34:09.740 --> 34:10.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Check it out.
[34:10.290 --> 34:10.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: Steal a bus?
[34:10.910 --> 34:13.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: A bus idling on the corner, you know, with nobody in it.
[34:13.290 --> 34:15.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, they, they, they shouldn't do things like that.
[34:16.020 --> 34:17.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Had a little, you know, antenna and all that kind of thing.
[34:17.980 --> 34:20.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Could have learned a lot, but probably would have been, uh...
[34:20.040 --> 34:24.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, in New York City, only, like, 17-year-old kids who want to be motemen do that.
[34:24.350 --> 34:25.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, that's not your speed.
[34:25.520 --> 34:26.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh-huh.
[34:26.410 --> 34:28.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, uh, okay, take care of you guys.
[34:28.520 --> 34:32.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, Bernie, uh, like I said, you'll be in Jones Beast before you know it.
[34:32.850 --> 34:33.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Take care.
[34:33.290 --> 34:33.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bye-bye.
[34:33.790 --> 34:33.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: I hope you're right.
[34:34.330 --> 34:35.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[34:35.680 --> 34:36.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: By the way, I made a mistake before.
[34:37.100 --> 34:38.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I said you were in Northampton County Prison.
[34:38.680 --> 34:39.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of course, that is not correct.
[34:39.640 --> 34:41.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: You were in Bucks County Prison.
[34:41.560 --> 34:42.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you for straightening that out.
[34:42.930 --> 34:45.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, uh, you were in Northampton County Prison.
[34:45.720 --> 34:49.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: You were also in, uh, uh, Haverford Township Prison?
[34:49.810 --> 34:55.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was, uh, I was, I was in a holding cell in Haverford Township, and then I was transported to a Delaware County Pennsylvania Prison.
[34:55.620 --> 35:01.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then I was transferred to, uh, uh, the Secret Service, who put me into the custody of the U.S.
[35:01.480 --> 35:05.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Marshals, and they put me in a federal prison in, uh, Fairton, New Jersey.
[35:05.500 --> 35:10.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then I was released for a few weeks, and then I was then incarcerated in Northampton County Prison.
[35:10.700 --> 35:12.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then I was transferred to Bucks County Prison.
[35:12.700 --> 35:13.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: So it gets pretty confusing.
[35:14.080 --> 35:15.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: This has all happened in less than a year's time.
[35:16.260 --> 35:18.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And all this, uh, all this free travel, you don't, you don't have to pay for that, huh?
[35:19.120 --> 35:20.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm, I'm doing the tour.
[35:20.450 --> 35:22.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow, that's, that's, that's quite a deal there.
[35:23.280 --> 35:23.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ah.
[35:23.910 --> 35:26.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, uh, 212-279-3400.
[35:27.480 --> 35:28.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on Off The Hook.
[35:29.460 --> 35:30.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, yeah, hi.
[35:30.360 --> 35:34.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted just to ask you a question about, uh, phone number area codes.
[35:34.600 --> 35:45.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was wondering, um, do you know, is it possible for someone in, let's say, a 718 area code to get a phone number with a 212 area code or vice versa or anything like that?
[35:46.020 --> 35:50.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you can, you can get what is known as a foreign exchange, uh, and what that will do.
[35:50.540 --> 35:51.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's, there's a couple of ways to do it.
[35:51.950 --> 35:59.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can, you can pay to have an exchange in another, uh, in another area code that will ring to your local number.
[35:59.860 --> 36:07.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and you can also just have a phone there and have it forward so it appears that you have, uh, uh, you, you have a number there.
[36:07.430 --> 36:08.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, and there's a couple ways of doing that.
[36:08.680 --> 36:13.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you, if you go through the phone company, of course, they'll, they'll charge you, um, a certain fee for that.
[36:13.800 --> 36:21.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: But a cheaper way is to just have somebody, uh, there in the city that has a phone and you just get a phone in their place and have it forwarded from there.
[36:21.700 --> 36:24.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, that's, that's the smart way of doing it in my opinion.
[36:24.410 --> 36:24.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[36:25.060 --> 36:27.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, could I, could I, uh, ask Bernie a question?
[36:27.340 --> 36:27.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go right ahead.
[36:27.760 --> 36:27.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
[36:27.910 --> 36:35.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: I might want to say if, if you're considering receiving a high volume of calls that way, it may be more expensive to, to handle it.
[36:35.620 --> 36:38.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I don't know if there's a toll call going from 782 or two.
[36:38.580 --> 36:39.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: They may not be.
[36:39.430 --> 36:40.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not from New York.
[36:40.540 --> 36:43.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, if you're, if it's a low volume of calls, that's definitely the way to go.
[36:44.430 --> 36:44.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[36:45.080 --> 36:55.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, no, I was just sort of curious, the, uh, the, your decision not to go to a trial jury, um, because of this fear of, of being stigmatized by the label of hacker.
[36:56.320 --> 37:01.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, what, was the attorney who made that decision, is that the same attorney you have now?
[37:02.480 --> 37:02.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[37:03.180 --> 37:04.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, I respect his opinion.
[37:04.820 --> 37:06.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's a, he's a former federal prosecutor.
[37:07.000 --> 37:08.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: He, he seems to know a lot about these cases.
[37:09.020 --> 37:12.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he's, he has a fairly good handle on, on the public perception.
[37:12.520 --> 37:17.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's, he's, uh, been before many juries before himself as a, as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney.
[37:17.760 --> 37:23.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: He just knows how, how the secret service was planning to misrepresent certain facts in the case.
[37:23.910 --> 37:34.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he felt a jury being non-technical and being impressed by secret service agents testifying, um, would simply believe them as opposed to believing me.
[37:34.780 --> 37:42.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, um, also the fact that I'd already spent my entire, practically my entire amount of time in prison already.
[37:42.280 --> 37:52.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: If I, if I decided to take the jury trial, if I was convicted, I would have received a harsher sentence than if I pled out, which is what I did.
[37:52.800 --> 37:55.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you plead out, then you get a reduced sentence.
[37:55.840 --> 37:59.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: You get something called two points off for acceptance of responsibility.
[38:00.260 --> 38:03.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: It requires them to not have to go through the expense of a trial.
[38:03.600 --> 38:14.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the other advantage of pleading guilty, and the other main reason I did, is to preserve my right to appeal the unconstitutionality of the new law that I was charged with violating.
[38:15.260 --> 38:22.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I've already filed my federal appeals briefs, and they'll be heard probably this flaw by a, a three-judge panel in the Third Circuit Court of Appeals.
[38:22.410 --> 38:31.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, had I, had I just gone for a jury trial and found, been found guilty, I wouldn't have had the same opportunity to, uh, to appeal the constitutionality of this law.
[38:32.160 --> 38:36.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, you know, there was, there were other reasons I did it, so that's the long and short of it.
[38:36.840 --> 38:43.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I find it pretty amazing that, that, uh, you can, you can be so, so rational in, in your, the way you're presenting this.
[38:43.040 --> 38:49.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because all I see is somebody in prison for over a year who doesn't belong there, and, uh, you see it in a different way.
[38:49.930 --> 38:53.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: You see it as, you could have been, it could have been even worse if you had gone a different, a different road.
[38:53.740 --> 38:57.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's another angle on that, which, which you, maybe, I don't know whether you considered it or not.
[38:57.700 --> 39:07.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that is that it would not be good for the, for the, uh, government if such a trial, uh, became public and, um, you were victorious.
[39:07.680 --> 39:18.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the fact that you have an attorney, I don't know how you came in contact with this attorney, but somebody who has worked as a federal prosecutor obviously still has contact in that, uh, world.
[39:18.860 --> 39:19.180]  Sure.
[39:19.450 --> 39:24.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I, I would, um, I would be maybe a little suspicious, uh, myself.
[39:24.460 --> 39:26.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I was, but frankly, I just felt beaten down at that point.
[39:27.080 --> 39:28.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, well, that's understandable.
[39:28.360 --> 39:31.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'd been locked up without bail for, for over six months, and I'd had it.
[39:31.660 --> 39:35.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: The only, at that point, I didn't care if people put a scarlet letter on my forehead.
[39:35.930 --> 39:36.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: But you know...
[39:36.840 --> 39:38.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: I wanted to get, I wanted to get out of prison.
[39:38.780 --> 39:40.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I did what I had to do to get out.
[39:40.640 --> 39:41.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but now you're still in prison.
[39:42.120 --> 39:42.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I am.
[39:43.320 --> 39:44.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh...
[39:44.930 --> 39:50.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, an attorney's job is to convince a jury of, uh, the innocence of a, of a client.
[39:50.700 --> 39:57.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: And this attorney apparently was telling you that he was incapable of convincing the jury, uh, of your innocence.
[39:57.160 --> 39:58.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: And at that point...
[39:58.180 --> 40:03.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: It, it sounds very neat when one hears it that way.
[40:03.160 --> 40:05.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: But these things are not black and white.
[40:05.320 --> 40:05.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they're just...
[40:05.780 --> 40:08.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: The case was incredibly complicated.
[40:08.520 --> 40:08.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: I...
[40:08.700 --> 40:09.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sure.
[40:09.300 --> 40:13.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: People who were technically inclined found it unbelievable.
[40:13.280 --> 40:21.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, a, a, a jury of, of lay people would have just been baffled by the whole thing.
[40:21.910 --> 40:24.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, and just said, okay, we don't understand this.
[40:24.260 --> 40:25.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're just gonna say guilty.
[40:25.720 --> 40:27.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Even though they have to find somebody guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
[40:27.760 --> 40:28.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I think...
[40:28.560 --> 40:28.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's just...
[40:28.910 --> 40:29.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just...
[40:29.700 --> 40:33.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I, I, I read the handwriting on the wall and felt like a steamroller was rolling over me.
[40:33.640 --> 40:34.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: And...
[40:34.600 --> 40:35.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: I did what I had to do.
[40:35.910 --> 40:37.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bernie, Bernie, I understand, you know, how you feel.
[40:37.960 --> 40:40.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I also, I can see the point the caller is, is trying to make.
[40:41.020 --> 40:53.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, um, in, in recent months, for instance, your attorney really has not been, uh, I guess as, as active as he could be because, based on your ability to pay.
[40:53.780 --> 40:54.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that not true?
[40:54.260 --> 40:57.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that's a concern he voiced to me, uh, about a month ago.
[40:57.780 --> 41:02.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, unfortunately, I only had, uh, about $5,000 in savings.
[41:02.600 --> 41:03.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, but you're in prison.
[41:03.600 --> 41:06.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, I mean, it's very hard for you to, to pay attorney fees when you're in prison.
[41:06.500 --> 41:18.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unfortunately, our, our criminal justice system, uh, meets out, um, more justice to those who have the means to, uh, finance, uh, adequate representation.
[41:19.220 --> 41:22.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, it just works, it all works out to money.
[41:22.600 --> 41:34.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, you can get public defenders, but public defenders, uh, you know, or court-appointed attorneys who are told to represent you with no charge typically will not represent you with as much vigor as a paid attorney.
[41:34.430 --> 41:45.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: I do think my attorney did a lot of work, and he may have made mistakes in retrospect, and I may have made mistakes in retrospect, but at the time I felt like I was doing what I had to do to get out of jail.
[41:45.340 --> 41:47.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, but you see, you're using, you're using the past tense.
[41:47.580 --> 41:48.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're saying he did a lot of work.
[41:48.880 --> 41:53.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I get the impression now that, you know, he's not really there trying to get you out of prison.
[41:53.120 --> 42:00.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think that should be the, the number one goal of any attorney if he's still employed by the person that, uh, he should be trying to get you out.
[42:00.360 --> 42:06.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I feel if I push any more with this guy, he'll just write me off and say, alright, I don't want this case anymore.
[42:06.880 --> 42:09.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm not gonna find, be able to find another attorney with no money at all.
[42:09.740 --> 42:11.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: I did give this guy a few thousand dollars of my money.
[42:11.660 --> 42:12.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: I owe him a lot more.
[42:13.060 --> 42:18.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, you know, if I, uh, if he drops this and it's turned over to somebody else, nobody else is gonna represent me, frankly.
[42:19.060 --> 42:22.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: I realize that, but you know, I'm, I'm hopelessly naive in matters like this.
[42:22.220 --> 42:26.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think attorneys should be, uh, uh, kind of the same thing as doctors.
[42:26.410 --> 42:30.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, they're, they're required to treat you if you need help.
[42:30.240 --> 42:41.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And just because you do not have the adequate funds, uh, to, to, uh, you know, to, to pay the guy right away, I don't think he should be any less enthusiastic about, about overturning the case.
[42:41.280 --> 42:44.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I agree with you, but it's just, just the way it is, unfortunately.
[42:45.620 --> 42:45.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[42:46.560 --> 42:47.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Alright, thanks so much for the call.
[42:47.860 --> 42:48.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thank you.
[42:48.410 --> 42:48.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take care.
[42:50.200 --> 42:50.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[42:51.040 --> 42:51.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[42:53.080 --> 42:53.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's, that's delay.
[42:54.160 --> 42:54.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[42:54.640 --> 42:55.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Turn down your radio.
[42:55.480 --> 42:55.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[42:55.840 --> 42:56.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah, you caught me.
[42:56.760 --> 43:05.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, if you think the feds can't be vindictive and use, use hackers this way, remember what they did to Randy Weaver up in Ruby Ridge.
[43:05.320 --> 43:05.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[43:05.540 --> 43:15.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: They, they had the only, the nation's only full-time SWAT team up there and mistakenly shot his wife, uh, murdered his son and wounded him in the leg.
[43:15.340 --> 43:17.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that was no accident.
[43:17.320 --> 43:21.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: They were just showing those, those people, those right-wingers who they got no use for.
[43:21.840 --> 43:24.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, hey, listen guys, straighten up and fly right.
[43:24.880 --> 43:28.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're gonna, uh, we don't mind making things uncomfortable for you.
[43:28.910 --> 43:30.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, it's, it's very interesting point.
[43:30.860 --> 43:40.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, this kind of federal prosecution or persecution actually is, is a better phrase, has brought together people that never would have been brought together before.
[43:40.180 --> 43:53.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ruby Ridge, Waco, militia people, and hackers, they're all pretty much identifying with each other now because of the way the federal government has prosecuted them and, uh, and, and been completely unfair in their characterizations.
[43:53.340 --> 44:00.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think if, um, if, if they continue to behave in this manner, there'll be all kinds of other strange bedfellows in the world.
[44:00.880 --> 44:09.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, listening to WBAI and, and reading some right-wing literature, you, you see the same, the same complaints.
[44:09.080 --> 44:13.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's, it's just, it got to the point and, and, and it's the government is the focus of it all.
[44:14.140 --> 44:20.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: It, it, it, they, it's, it's, it's, it's unconscionable that this land of the free is, is not.
[44:20.420 --> 44:23.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they're coming down on anybody who makes them uncomfortable.
[44:23.260 --> 44:24.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's all there is to it.
[44:25.060 --> 44:34.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, and, and it, and it's sad that, that, uh, whatever it is that makes their minds up as to who should be away and how far away, I mean, that's it.
[44:34.860 --> 44:41.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they ended up paying the, the Weaver guy, I don't know, three million bucks because they, whoops, we made a mistake.
[44:41.380 --> 44:42.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: We entrapped you.
[44:42.260 --> 44:44.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: But meanwhile, they murdered his wife and his son.
[44:45.420 --> 44:48.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's, that's, that's, you know, it doesn't come any harder than that.
[44:48.280 --> 44:49.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's quite a mistake.
[44:49.340 --> 44:49.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[44:49.960 --> 44:50.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for a good show.
[44:51.140 --> 44:51.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[44:51.420 --> 44:51.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for calling.
[44:53.400 --> 44:53.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[44:54.100 --> 44:54.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[44:54.780 --> 44:55.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[44:55.000 --> 45:00.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was wondering if I could, uh, uh, comment on the, um, off the, off the hook show.
[45:00.440 --> 45:03.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you are on off the hook now, so this would be a good opportunity.
[45:03.220 --> 45:03.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry.
[45:03.700 --> 45:09.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to thank, uh, uh, your colleague, Bernie, at the, uh, who's, uh, currently incarcerated.
[45:09.500 --> 45:10.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm an attorney.
[45:10.600 --> 45:19.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a, uh, uh, I've represented a number of persons who, um, companies and small firms in the computer area, and I've also done some criminal work.
[45:19.220 --> 45:30.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I was gonna, uh, one, commend you for the, the support that you're giving to him by staying on the line and keeping him in, in the network, um, of friends and colleagues.
[45:30.720 --> 45:33.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because I, I felt and I've always seen that that's been key.
[45:33.220 --> 45:49.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: And also just to be positive, um, in terms of making a positive contribution to him to see if there, if he would like that there be letters and, and, and, uh, the kind of support that yourself and other, others of, of, who are interested that we can send to can try to let the,
[45:49.320 --> 45:59.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: uh, system or the, uh, court system or parole system know that he's a person that we feel will make an important contribution, uh, to this issue of technology and its relationship to society.
[45:59.880 --> 46:08.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just don't think that anybody in the system will find that, uh, uh, particularly on the defense side will find that that's gonna hurt him.
[46:08.440 --> 46:09.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: It can only help him.
[46:09.580 --> 46:19.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I just think what you're doing is, uh, is very important, not just in one case, but in terms of the, uh, constitutionality and constitutional concerns, um, of everybody.
[46:19.820 --> 46:27.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the bottom line, of course, is that the prosecution is, is duty bound by the constitution to protect and do right and do justice.
[46:27.420 --> 46:32.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so in a certain sense, that's something that we can all, uh, appeal to cause we have it in common.
[46:32.480 --> 46:34.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: So again, thank you for your help and I wish him the best.
[46:35.000 --> 46:43.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now as, uh, as an attorney, I'm wondering, uh, what kinds of, first of all, I think that the, um, the credit should be shared by, by WBAI listeners and people who have written to Bernie.
[46:43.900 --> 46:54.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: But as an attorney, I was wondering what kind of, um, uh, take you have on the things we were saying before about, uh, about how attorneys, uh, sometimes are able to stay with their clients.
[46:54.580 --> 46:55.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes they don't.
[46:55.340 --> 46:57.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, how do you see the whole relationship there?
[46:57.780 --> 47:02.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: I thought that, uh, it's a, it's, it's, it's a complicated relationship.
[47:02.180 --> 47:16.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: I thought that what you were saying was valid and what the callers were saying were valid, which is that it is like a medical relationship, a dentist, a doctor, someone who's a, who's a care provider by law, actually in terms of New York state law, at least any attorney is bound to,
[47:16.460 --> 47:21.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: to the, to fight vigorously for their client, regardless of whether they have a dime or not.
[47:21.420 --> 47:22.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the law.
[47:22.260 --> 47:27.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: And if the, if the attorney doesn't do it, the attorney can be disbarred and lose their, their meal ticket themselves.
[47:28.260 --> 47:37.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: On the other hand, there's also, I, I sympathize and, uh, empathize with what Bernie was concerns were, which is the immediacy, how to, how to get it.
[47:41.800 --> 47:42.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's valid as well.
[47:42.700 --> 47:46.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, because I don't think it's fair to, to disregard their concerns.
[47:46.560 --> 47:58.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I, I think that it's, I think that nobody loses when, when the client and the attorney are, are as upfront and as honest as they are in terms of their concerns.
[47:58.440 --> 48:01.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just think it helps the attorney understand where the client's coming from.
[48:01.880 --> 48:06.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it helps the client understand that the attorney's limitations, that they're, that they're human.
[48:06.200 --> 48:07.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: They have to eat, they have to pay their rent.
[48:08.220 --> 48:13.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: And at the same time, uh, uh, many of us are not in it to get, uh, goo gobs of money.
[48:14.100 --> 48:21.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're in it because we, because, uh, because the issues of freedom of importance to us and we want to do right or we wouldn't be in it.
[48:21.520 --> 48:31.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I, I think that it, it, again, it helps that there are facilities and an online community to, to discuss this because it's almost like it brings us all before the court of public opinion.
[48:31.720 --> 48:34.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's the best place for the lawyer and for the client.
[48:34.500 --> 48:35.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Mm-hmm.
[48:35.520 --> 48:36.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Very well said.
[48:36.500 --> 48:36.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[48:37.040 --> 48:37.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you for calling.
[48:37.720 --> 48:38.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're welcome.
[48:39.320 --> 48:40.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you get that guy feel, lawyer Bernie?
[48:40.700 --> 48:42.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: I did, uh...
[48:43.100 --> 48:43.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: You there?
[48:44.080 --> 48:46.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: As an attorney, he does seem to know what he's talking about.
[48:46.760 --> 48:54.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's, it's, it's a really complicated relationship and, and we have a complicated case and it could be even more complicated, but it's, it's just, it's just hard to look at it in a black and white way.
[48:55.000 --> 48:58.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, I don't feel that I was dealt short shrift by my attorney in any way.
[48:58.380 --> 48:59.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's under a lot of pressure from his firm.
[49:00.100 --> 49:02.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's not a self-employed attorney, but it's from a large firm.
[49:02.560 --> 49:08.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: He has to answer to the senior partners, you know, it's, it, there's a lot of, a lot of fine lines involved here.
[49:08.760 --> 49:25.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: But in any case, uh, to get to what he, he had mentioned about, uh, people to contact in writing or by, uh, telephone, uh, to, to help me, uh, in my release, uh, as of next week, I should officially be released or eligible for parole.
[49:25.940 --> 49:36.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if that hasn't happened by next Tuesday, um, I will, uh, provide you folks with a list of names and phone numbers unless I have compelling reason not to by someone between now and then.
[49:36.300 --> 49:37.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I'll get that ready.
[49:37.840 --> 49:38.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[49:38.180 --> 49:43.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you can count on us to, uh, to, to put the pressure on if, uh, if, if things don't start moving by then.
[49:43.820 --> 49:47.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, 212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
[49:48.380 --> 49:49.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[49:49.100 --> 49:49.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on off the hook.
[49:50.200 --> 49:50.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[49:50.480 --> 49:51.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: I had a couple of comments and a question.
[49:52.160 --> 49:52.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[49:53.100 --> 50:01.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: I, comment number one, you were talking about 65% of hackers wanted to go into the, break into the, um, Well, not, first of all, you gotta turn on your radio.
[50:01.920 --> 50:02.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, hold on a second.
[50:02.560 --> 50:05.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll get hopelessly confused, as, as will we.
[50:10.250 --> 50:10.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here he comes.
[50:10.990 --> 50:11.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, hello?
[50:11.610 --> 50:12.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, yes.
[50:12.230 --> 50:12.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I'm sorry about that.
[50:13.010 --> 50:13.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[50:13.890 --> 50:16.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: I remember a movie about, uh, 12 years ago, War Games.
[50:17.150 --> 50:22.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it kind of, like, glamorized, you know, breaking into the, the, the defense department computer.
[50:23.270 --> 50:25.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I can see, like, people being a little mischief here, you know.
[50:26.190 --> 50:32.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, Mission Impossible glamorizes riding on top of high-speed trains, but it's not the kind of thing that, uh, people are necessarily gonna go out and do.
[50:33.190 --> 50:33.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a bit of fun.
[50:34.090 --> 50:38.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but if you run on a high-speed train, people with half a brain will realize, you know, you might fall off it.
[50:38.970 --> 50:43.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you go onto the defense department computer, basically, what's gonna, you know, something could happen to you.
[50:43.770 --> 50:47.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: If people with half a brain were running them, 65% would be getting in, you know.
[50:47.310 --> 50:47.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[50:47.570 --> 50:49.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's what you have to be looking at.
[50:49.270 --> 50:50.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, first of all, I, I dispute that number.
[50:50.910 --> 50:53.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think 65% of everybody who tries gets in.
[50:53.910 --> 50:55.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I didn't say the number was correct or not.
[50:55.290 --> 50:58.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: My point is that I could see people trying to get into it.
[50:58.750 --> 51:05.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but you see, what you have to understand is, when you try and hack into a system on the Internet, it says where you're coming from, you know.
[51:05.590 --> 51:09.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unless you, uh, unless you dial in directly, and then there's phone records to deal with.
[51:09.070 --> 51:09.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wait till, like...
[51:09.530 --> 51:11.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to, you have to mask your identity pretty well.
[51:11.650 --> 51:15.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the way that you can, you can somehow reroute yourself so you're not who you are, you say you are.
[51:15.570 --> 51:22.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, but we're all so paranoid now that we're convinced of being watched everywhere, so I don't think very many people are going to go out and attack the defense department from their bedroom.
[51:22.830 --> 51:23.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just...
[51:23.290 --> 51:23.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I don't know what...
[51:23.850 --> 51:25.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know many people that would do that.
[51:25.470 --> 51:26.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't...
[51:26.090 --> 51:26.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a hacker.
[51:26.810 --> 51:27.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't do that.
[51:27.890 --> 51:31.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I can understand, like, a young kid, you know, let's say young kids might do graffiti.
[51:31.590 --> 51:33.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: They might go for, you know, a computer.
[51:33.470 --> 51:38.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if someone's, like, more intelligent, instead of doing graffiti on a wall, they might try to attack someone's computer.
[51:39.410 --> 51:39.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[51:40.110 --> 52:00.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, you know, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the way that the hysteria that we're seeing as far as what threat hackers pose, it's blown way out of proportion, and it's blown way out of proportion for a purpose, so that something, some kind of public opinion can be planted and later harvested in some way.
[52:00.610 --> 52:02.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's, I think, what we have to be worried about now.
[52:03.250 --> 52:19.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think that legislation or anything else can change human nature, and it's been human nature for people to want to try things that are challenging, whether it's climbing Mount Everest or going down a White Rider River in a kayak or what.
[52:19.250 --> 52:22.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, with hacking your Pentagon computer system, people are going to try it.
[52:22.990 --> 52:24.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Whether that's right or wrong isn't the issue.
[52:24.530 --> 52:26.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: People are going to try it.
[52:26.610 --> 52:27.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I agree.
[52:27.110 --> 52:27.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: People are going to try it.
[52:28.050 --> 52:28.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: I had one other question.
[52:29.190 --> 52:32.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Have you tried the free phone service on the Internet?
[52:33.790 --> 52:34.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Free?
[52:34.110 --> 52:34.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Describe it for us.
[52:35.050 --> 52:36.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a way that, let's say...
[52:36.390 --> 52:38.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: You mean Internet phone, iPhone, that kind of thing?
[52:39.070 --> 52:46.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure what it's called, but if I have a phone on my computer, right, and my friend's got a phone on a computer, we can make it on a local phone call.
[52:46.370 --> 52:47.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: I can call him across the country for free.
[52:48.050 --> 52:49.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, across the world, actually.
[52:49.410 --> 52:52.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's been around for, I think, over a year now.
[52:52.070 --> 52:53.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've seen it advertised.
[52:53.450 --> 52:55.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: The see you, see me allows you to send a picture at the same time.
[52:56.630 --> 52:58.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's something that's in its infancy right now.
[52:58.790 --> 53:02.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: It looks terrible, it sounds terrible, but it does allow you to communicate.
[53:02.770 --> 53:04.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Phone companies are up in arms about it.
[53:04.430 --> 53:10.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's something that no doubt will succeed and offer a way to communicate for very low cost.
[53:10.850 --> 53:12.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what the Internet is all about.
[53:13.530 --> 53:14.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right, thank you very much.
[53:14.570 --> 53:14.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for calling.
[53:16.310 --> 53:17.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[53:18.410 --> 53:19.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello.
[53:19.350 --> 53:19.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[53:20.570 --> 53:36.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, in the context of what you were talking about at the present time, the third president of the United States wrote, the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and pirates.
[53:37.690 --> 53:39.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: It is natural manure.
[53:39.510 --> 53:49.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: In fact, Jefferson also wrote that the government should be overthrown every 25 years.
[53:50.270 --> 54:03.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was another president, the 26th president of the United States, pointed out, do not hit at all if it can be avoided, but never hit softly.
[54:04.470 --> 54:05.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[54:05.190 --> 54:09.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: How these people were founders of this country.
[54:10.210 --> 54:12.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Do you know if those people were on the Internet today, they'd be labeled a threat?
[54:13.270 --> 54:14.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course they would.
[54:14.510 --> 54:15.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course they would.
[54:16.010 --> 54:21.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: But of course, the 26th president of the United States was termed to be insane.
[54:21.770 --> 54:27.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: He was termed to be mad, a madman, and all kinds of things like that.
[54:27.030 --> 54:35.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: In fact, he was robbed of the nomination in 1912.
[54:36.390 --> 54:46.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: And unfortunately, he died before the elections in 1920.
[54:47.150 --> 55:03.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: In point of fact, there are people from April 20th of this year who on the steps of the House where TR was born proclaimed a rebel Republican movement.
[55:04.090 --> 55:22.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: And these people are talking in terms of going back to the policies of Teddy Roosevelt, of John Llewellyn Lewis, of Thomas Borer, and so on.
[55:22.890 --> 55:35.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: In point of fact, it's my understanding that these people have, among their numbers, rather prominent members of American families.
[55:35.270 --> 55:35.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[55:35.750 --> 55:43.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, yeah, I think it's very interesting to point to the past and see the different perspectives, how they parallel some of the things that are happening today.
[55:44.270 --> 55:49.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we can't forget what events have occurred in the past, what people have said in the past.
[55:49.530 --> 55:59.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if we simply move them to this particular time period, we might be able to actually get a little bit of perspective as to the relevance of it all.
[55:59.810 --> 56:00.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks so much for calling.
[56:00.770 --> 56:03.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have one more call that we're going to get to, hopefully.
[56:03.830 --> 56:04.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[56:04.370 --> 56:04.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[56:06.850 --> 56:09.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, you could have been that call, but let's try again.
[56:09.490 --> 56:09.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[56:09.810 --> 56:10.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[56:11.150 --> 56:16.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, listen, I just happened to hear your program, or not too much of it.
[56:16.750 --> 56:18.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's a question that I wanted to ask you.
[56:20.170 --> 56:20.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, go ahead.
[56:21.070 --> 56:23.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, my name is Richard from Peekskill, New York.
[56:24.110 --> 56:24.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[56:24.650 --> 56:25.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is a kind.
[56:25.490 --> 56:28.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, about a year and a half ago, I got in a little trouble up here.
[56:30.010 --> 56:39.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I certainly shouldn't have, but the story goes, I was, as it turned out, I was having a heart attack.
[56:39.410 --> 56:41.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: I didn't even know it was a heart attack.
[56:41.690 --> 56:45.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I had called the police here a couple of times to take me to the hospital.
[56:46.290 --> 56:50.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then when I got to the hospital, my doctor wasn't there, so I came back home the first time.
[56:51.130 --> 57:00.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then I was having a breathing problem, and then when I called them, a couple of more times, they finally came over here, and they locked me up for harassing them.
[57:01.710 --> 57:02.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: See?
[57:02.310 --> 57:04.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then I went to jail over here.
[57:04.450 --> 57:06.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: They locked you up for harassing him when you were having a heart attack?
[57:07.030 --> 57:10.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but they didn't know I was having a heart attack and neither did I.
[57:10.490 --> 57:14.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was just having breathing problems, and I didn't know what it was.
[57:14.610 --> 57:21.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: I had to open the window, and a gas for air, and the second time they locked me up, I rattled him.
[57:22.410 --> 57:26.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: I stayed in jail 20 days about before I was bailed out.
[57:27.070 --> 57:33.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then when I went back to court, the lawyer came to see me.
[57:34.070 --> 57:36.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: He was a terrible lawyer, absolutely terrible.
[57:36.550 --> 57:48.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: He told me to plead guilty, which I did, because the way he said it, because I had already did three weeks in jail, and for the offense, I thought they'd give me time to serve.
[57:49.070 --> 57:58.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, to make a long story short, they gave me three years probation, and I still didn't know I had a heart attack until I was in jail and went to the hospital.
[57:58.430 --> 58:02.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they admitted me immediately.
[58:02.670 --> 58:07.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: My heart was working at 20% efficiency, and they put me on ICU.
[58:07.910 --> 58:09.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: I stayed up there about three weeks.
[58:09.930 --> 58:16.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then the judge had given me 30 days to appeal the case.
[58:16.930 --> 58:28.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: My lawyer didn't appeal, and then when I found out myself, there was my heart that was causing me to call the police for assistance, I tried to contact his office.
[58:28.050 --> 58:36.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: He was... I didn't know anything to say except that he was avoiding me those 30 days, and I didn't get my appeal in time.
[58:37.510 --> 58:46.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then I finally wrote to Brooklyn's Appeals Court myself, because I had called around and asked other lawyers, who should I write about this appeal thing?
[58:46.870 --> 58:51.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: They told me the Court of Appeals in Brooklyn, but they gave me the wrong section.
[58:51.730 --> 58:57.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was probably in the same building, but I think I wrote the Court of Appeals.
[58:57.910 --> 59:01.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: I should have wrote all this legal stuff.
[59:01.990 --> 59:10.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: But anyway, it was just the wrong department, but it had to do with appeals, but I had to go to the wrong apartment, and they wrote me back telling me where to write.
[59:10.550 --> 59:25.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: The second time that I wrote them, I waited about two months again, and they wrote back and told me that I was not in their computer because the appeal wasn't put through in time, which was not my fault.
[59:25.410 --> 59:29.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sir, I hate to cut you off because it's a very interesting story, but we're out of time.
[59:29.810 --> 59:31.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Can you just tell us how the story ended real quick?
[59:31.550 --> 59:43.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'm still on probation, and I'm living up here in the prison industrial complex, and so it's very simple to get locked up up here.
[59:43.530 --> 59:44.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I can imagine.
[59:44.550 --> 59:47.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, and you know, I don't know what to do, but I talked to the other lawyer.
[59:47.550 --> 59:50.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: They want $10,000 for me to go to appeals court.
[59:50.870 --> 59:55.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, I see the parallels here, and you've both been screwed by the system.
[59:55.470 --> 59:55.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.
[59:55.670 --> 59:59.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: My sympathies, and unfortunately we're out of time, but I wish you the best.
[59:59.930 --> 01:00:04.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm sorry, but I was trying to get you, but, you know, for time, but you were talking to other people.
[01:00:05.050 --> 01:00:05.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[01:00:05.670 --> 01:00:08.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, try this next week, and if you can get through them, maybe we can go into this a little bit more.
[01:00:08.910 --> 01:00:11.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bernie, real quick, your address for people to write to you, Ed.
[01:00:11.850 --> 01:00:18.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Please, anybody that has the time or opportunity, if you can mail me letters, cards, magazines, books, I'd appreciate it.
[01:00:18.730 --> 01:00:27.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: My address here is Ed Cummings, C-U-M-M-I-N-G-S, chair of Bucks, B-U-C-K-S, county prison.
[01:00:28.170 --> 01:00:43.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's at 1730 Southeastern Road, that's E-A-S-T-O-N, and that's in Doylestown, D-O-Y-L-E-S-T-O-W-N-P-A-1-8-9-0-1.
[01:00:43.350 --> 01:00:45.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: And please write on the package, reading materials.
[01:00:46.010 --> 01:00:48.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you don't write that, they won't let me have it.
[01:00:48.590 --> 01:00:49.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I found that out the hard way.
[01:00:49.970 --> 01:00:53.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you don't write reading materials on an envelope, it just comes right back as if you don't exist.
[01:00:53.350 --> 01:00:59.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I want to thank everybody who sent me things to read, because it's really been an uplifting experience, and it's something I need right now.
[01:00:59.570 --> 01:01:02.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, thanks very much for being with us, and we'll talk to you again next week.
[01:01:03.030 --> 01:01:05.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hopefully we'll have some better news then.
[01:01:05.670 --> 01:01:10.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: And of course, if you want to send an email to BernieS, BernieS, B-E-R-N-I-E-S, at 2600.com.