Off The Hook - 1996-06-04

[00:03.100 --> 00:06.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Between day and night.
[00:07.600 --> 00:10.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Between day and night.
[00:11.020 --> 00:14.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Between reality and imagination.
[00:21.410 --> 00:27.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: 3.30 till 6 a.m.
[00:30.330 --> 00:31.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: from dusk.
[00:46.490 --> 00:47.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: Night shift.
[00:50.750 --> 00:52.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thursday mornings.
[00:53.110 --> 00:55.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: 3.30 till 6 a.m.
[01:00.710 --> 01:02.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: And a whole lot more.
[01:02.830 --> 01:06.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's here on WBAI New York, where it's time now for Off the Hook.
[01:13.170 --> 01:15.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:15.540 --> 01:17.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:18.540 --> 01:20.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: I cut myself off shaving.
[01:21.120 --> 01:23.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now I can't make a call.
[01:24.060 --> 01:25.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: It couldn't get much worse.
[01:29.640 --> 01:31.160]  Best expect the worst.
[01:31.800 --> 01:33.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: I hope that's on your face.
[01:33.480 --> 01:33.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good.
[01:33.900 --> 01:34.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: Funding.
[01:34.480 --> 01:34.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: No!
[02:16.590 --> 02:18.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:18.270 --> 02:22.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's time for another action-packed edition of Off the Hook.
[02:23.350 --> 02:26.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: The program that talks all about technology.
[02:26.150 --> 02:26.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: Computer hackers.
[02:28.250 --> 02:28.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Viruses.
[02:29.010 --> 02:29.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: The telephone system.
[02:30.150 --> 02:30.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Big Brother.
[02:31.070 --> 02:35.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: And whatever other adventures happen to come along during the time we have together.
[02:35.930 --> 02:38.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll be taking phone calls in a little while.
[02:38.450 --> 02:39.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll probably be hearing from Bernie S.
[02:39.790 --> 02:41.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: getting an update on his case.
[02:41.010 --> 02:47.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: As well as other things that have been happening in our little world over the past week.
[02:48.410 --> 02:51.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: The newest issue of 2600 Magazine is out finally.
[02:51.970 --> 02:56.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: After a one-month tour of the nation's loading zones, it has finally made it to the newsstands.
[02:56.910 --> 02:59.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you can actually find it.
[02:59.350 --> 03:04.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: And all kinds of fun topics are out there as well.
[03:04.910 --> 03:09.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Including ways of gaining revenge against people.
[03:09.710 --> 03:12.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Ways of taking advantage of Macs.
[03:13.430 --> 03:14.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: How to avoid suspicion.
[03:15.070 --> 03:17.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Guide to Motorola cellular phones.
[03:17.450 --> 03:18.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: All kinds of fun things like that.
[03:19.830 --> 03:25.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I don't know what happened, but for some reason, magazines are imitating our style now.
[03:25.530 --> 03:30.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, we put this thing out and there's this other weekly magazine now that has this look to it.
[03:30.150 --> 03:35.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't understand what's going on with that, but that's something we'll have to take up with our corporate lawyer people.
[03:35.850 --> 03:38.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Having all these weird things going on.
[03:40.770 --> 03:45.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've got a few updates on some stories and some other kind of fun things going on.
[03:45.290 --> 03:49.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Including the Belcor Tiger team.
[03:50.210 --> 03:50.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
[03:50.690 --> 03:51.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if you've heard about this one.
[03:51.830 --> 04:00.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is for people who are on the net and feel that maybe things are a bit insecure for them.
[04:01.990 --> 04:04.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, there's a little brochure floating around.
[04:04.550 --> 04:05.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: Protect your network.
[04:06.090 --> 04:06.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Get attacked.
[04:07.970 --> 04:09.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's how you protect your network.
[04:09.610 --> 04:10.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: By getting attacked.
[04:10.330 --> 04:17.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: With incidents of security breaches on the internet becoming more and more common, it's time to protect your information and service assets.
[04:17.970 --> 04:20.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's why you'll want to get attacked.
[04:20.790 --> 04:21.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's amazing.
[04:21.590 --> 04:22.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: A hacker could have written this.
[04:22.610 --> 04:23.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: But no, this comes from Belcor.
[04:24.410 --> 04:26.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Belcor's Internet Firewall Tiger Team attack.
[04:27.010 --> 04:34.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let Belcor's Internet Firewall Tiger Team come in and try to penetrate your internet firewall.
[04:34.910 --> 04:35.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
[04:35.890 --> 04:44.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: They'll look for weaknesses in the technology being used as well as the way that technology is administered and configured.
[04:45.250 --> 04:51.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: If they are successful, and they usually are, they'll then try to gain access to as many systems as they find attached to the network.
[04:51.750 --> 04:55.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: They will show you how vulnerable your confidential information is.
[04:56.410 --> 05:02.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: The team will also evaluate your corporate response to the intrusion.
[05:02.650 --> 05:12.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they'll track how well your personnel respond to the attacks, noting the response times and any actions taken.
[05:12.250 --> 05:16.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they'll also engage in a little bit of social engineering.
[05:17.210 --> 05:19.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: They got the whole thing down, don't they?
[05:20.090 --> 05:27.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: That is, they'll try to get vital information, such as passwords, by just talking to your people.
[05:28.050 --> 05:36.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Would one of your people divulge a key code if a caller presented what seemed to be a credible story with fake credentials?
[05:37.410 --> 05:40.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Find out, by bringing in the internet firewall tiger team.
[05:41.610 --> 05:42.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Unbelievable.
[05:42.470 --> 05:53.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now this is, this is why hackers get blamed for things, because these tiger teams are going out there, breaking into systems, and then claiming that they're able to get into all these systems, because, you know, they, they intimidate people into giving out data or whatever.
[05:53.610 --> 05:57.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: And all of a sudden, hackers are the ones that are attacking the system, even though they're not the ones that are doing it.
[05:58.670 --> 06:00.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: These people have extensive experience.
[06:00.930 --> 06:06.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've successfully performed these intrusion exercises many times for some of the most demanding clients, the baby bells.
[06:07.730 --> 06:09.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, hackers have had experience with them, too.
[06:10.050 --> 06:10.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Proven expertise.
[06:10.930 --> 06:17.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have global experience in identifying potential vulnerabilities, evaluating their business impacts, and recommending corrective actions.
[06:17.830 --> 06:21.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Our intrusion exercise can save you thousands, perhaps millions of dollars.
[06:21.510 --> 06:27.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you can even put a price tag on your most valuable data, if it is lost, stolen, or tampered with.
[06:28.990 --> 06:35.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: We participate and serve in a leadership capacity on several national and international standards bodies, focusing on open systems and security.
[06:37.450 --> 06:43.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: And this is, this is what a lot of people are doing, I guess, what a lot of corporations are doing.
[06:43.250 --> 06:57.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, you can reach them by, uh, by calling 1-800-521-CORE, C-O-R-E, and, uh, asking them how they can, they can make your network tiger-proof.
[06:59.310 --> 07:05.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know, this, uh, that's, uh, something, let's see what kind of computer systems they're using over there, actually, so we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll check that out a little bit.
[07:06.330 --> 07:11.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, but they say hurry, the guaranteed IQ 1996 rates are only in effect until June 1st.
[07:12.010 --> 07:13.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I guess we've already missed it.
[07:14.550 --> 07:16.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, that's, uh, that's a story with Bellcore.
[07:18.270 --> 07:19.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know, should we call them?
[07:19.450 --> 07:20.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's give them a call.
[07:21.450 --> 07:22.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Got a dial tone?
[07:22.170 --> 07:22.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[07:24.010 --> 07:29.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: See what happens when we, uh, ask to have our computer system penetrated.
[07:29.230 --> 07:29.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-oh.
[07:30.270 --> 07:31.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Something, something happened to our phone system, though.
[07:31.930 --> 07:32.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's see if we can...
[07:33.430 --> 07:33.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[07:35.790 --> 07:39.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Calling up the, uh, Bellcore Tiger team.
[07:41.870 --> 07:44.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: See if anybody will break into our systems for us.
[07:54.140 --> 07:55.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to Bellcore.
[07:55.480 --> 07:58.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you're calling on a weekday between the hours of 8 a.m.
[07:58.780 --> 07:59.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: and 6.30 p.m.
[07:59.940 --> 08:05.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Eastern Standard Time, please leave a message at the tone, and a sales representative will return your call shortly.
[08:05.720 --> 08:12.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: If it is after 6.30 p.m., please leave a message, and a sales rep will return your call after 8 a.m.
[08:12.280 --> 08:13.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: on the next workday.
[08:13.240 --> 08:13.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, these numbers!
[08:14.120 --> 08:14.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[08:14.700 --> 08:15.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm gonna hit zero and see what happens.
[08:16.400 --> 08:19.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry, an operator is not available to help you.
[08:19.200 --> 08:19.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, let's try...
[08:19.880 --> 08:21.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: To disconnect, press 1.
[08:21.120 --> 08:24.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you wish to leave a message for someone else, press 2.
[08:24.560 --> 08:27.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you still want to leave a message for this person, press 3.
[08:27.820 --> 08:28.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna hit a star.
[08:28.200 --> 08:29.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Or simply stay on the line.
[08:29.920 --> 08:32.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Please dial the number of the person you are calling.
[08:32.400 --> 08:35.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you have a mailbox on this system, please press pound.
[08:35.480 --> 08:35.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[08:36.620 --> 08:37.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mailbox number, please.
[08:37.680 --> 08:37.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-oh.
[08:38.040 --> 08:40.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: We got a bad line quality here.
[08:40.240 --> 08:40.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, let's go.
[08:40.920 --> 08:42.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: 1, 2, 3, 4.
[08:43.180 --> 08:43.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Pound sign.
[08:43.720 --> 08:48.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: 2, 3, 4 is not a recognized mailbox.
[08:48.680 --> 08:48.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[08:49.100 --> 08:49.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please try again.
[08:50.020 --> 08:50.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, let's try again.
[08:50.680 --> 08:52.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please re-enter your mailbox number.
[08:52.540 --> 08:54.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: How about, uh, Bellcore?
[08:54.640 --> 08:56.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: B-E-L-L.
[08:57.140 --> 08:58.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please enter your password.
[08:58.380 --> 08:58.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ooh, Bell.
[08:59.120 --> 08:59.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[08:59.860 --> 09:01.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: I guess they use the password of Bell.
[09:04.640 --> 09:05.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: No?
[09:05.580 --> 09:06.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry.
[09:06.560 --> 09:07.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: That is not the correct password.
[09:08.320 --> 09:10.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Please re-enter your password now.
[09:10.900 --> 09:11.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Any guesses?
[09:11.720 --> 09:12.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Core?
[09:12.020 --> 09:12.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, let's try Core.
[09:14.380 --> 09:15.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: How much are we going to charge them for this?
[09:19.410 --> 09:20.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry.
[09:20.290 --> 09:21.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: That is not the correct password.
[09:21.850 --> 09:21.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, boy.
[09:22.270 --> 09:24.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: Please re-enter your password now.
[09:24.750 --> 09:26.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, okay.
[09:26.310 --> 09:26.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: How about this?
[09:27.190 --> 09:28.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: How about, uh, AT&T?
[09:33.410 --> 09:34.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's only three.
[09:34.350 --> 09:34.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: It hung up.
[09:36.090 --> 09:36.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's kind of rude.
[09:37.010 --> 09:37.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Didn't even say goodbye.
[09:38.570 --> 09:39.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, well.
[09:40.010 --> 09:40.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[09:40.550 --> 09:41.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's, uh...
[09:42.290 --> 09:44.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: They can, they can, they can play with our computer systems.
[09:44.690 --> 09:47.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll play with their voicemail systems and see who gets there first.
[09:47.990 --> 09:48.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[09:48.290 --> 09:50.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have, um, a couple other news items.
[09:51.110 --> 09:52.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hopefully, we'll be hearing from Bernie S.
[09:52.210 --> 09:52.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: real soon.
[09:52.730 --> 09:56.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we can update you on, on his particular, uh, status with getting out of prison.
[09:56.990 --> 09:59.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: And if, uh, if things are progressing in any way.
[10:00.510 --> 10:03.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, how about this?
[10:03.830 --> 10:08.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: The Xerox machine causes nuclear power plant emergency halt.
[10:10.130 --> 10:17.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: One of the Swedish nuclear reactors, known as Ringhaus 4, was automatically shut down during a routine safety check.
[10:17.410 --> 10:21.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: The last part of the instructions fed into the computer was missing.
[10:21.550 --> 10:26.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: And when the computer safety system noticed that the instructions were incomplete, it shut down the reactor.
[10:26.990 --> 10:28.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: So far, so good.
[10:28.150 --> 10:29.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: But why were the instructions incomplete?
[10:29.630 --> 10:33.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: The Xerox machine used to copy the instruction sheet did not include the complete page.
[10:33.970 --> 10:37.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: And no one except the computer ever noticed that the instructions were incorrect.
[10:37.810 --> 10:40.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: The risk is obvious that no system is completely foolproof.
[10:40.930 --> 10:46.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, it's doubtful anyone ever thought about the correctness of these Xerox machines as part of the nuclear power plant safety system.
[10:46.550 --> 10:51.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: No matter how detailed you plan the security system, there will always be some part that could fail.
[10:51.870 --> 10:55.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: In this case, nothing serious happened because the computer detected the error.
[10:55.210 --> 10:57.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, this or similar incidents could happen again.
[10:57.510 --> 11:01.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: And next time, maybe, the error will not be detected.
[11:01.710 --> 11:03.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: That comes from the Risks Digest this week.
[11:04.410 --> 11:07.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, a Xerox machine shut down a nuclear power plant.
[11:09.010 --> 11:12.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, people are interested in all kinds of technology these days.
[11:12.450 --> 11:16.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: All kinds of new gizmos to play around with.
[11:17.290 --> 11:20.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's this company on the net called SpyZone.
[11:21.210 --> 11:25.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you can visit them at http www.spyzone.com.
[11:26.310 --> 11:30.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: And here's a little blurb from their page there.
[11:30.610 --> 11:39.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Our products can capture spies, stop competitors, provide competitive edges, and secure you from all sorts of harm.
[11:39.630 --> 11:42.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: We've given you many good reasons to call us or stop by.
[11:42.590 --> 11:47.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: But we haven't yet revealed who's doing what to whom and how they do it.
[11:47.530 --> 11:50.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: You want additional information about this fascinating category.
[11:50.270 --> 11:52.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: You want to speak with real live spies.
[11:52.490 --> 11:55.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can look forward to the SpyZone features by month's end.
[11:55.850 --> 11:57.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Meanwhile, take a look at best sources.
[11:57.610 --> 12:01.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Check out the most comprehensive links to other security sites in our resources section.
[12:02.130 --> 12:05.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or for more complete information, you can call them.
[12:05.550 --> 12:06.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: They give their phone number there.
[12:07.270 --> 12:10.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: For every monitoring system, there is a countermeasure to defeat it.
[12:10.570 --> 12:14.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Every threat to personal protection can be met with an equally effective solution.
[12:14.390 --> 12:21.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Body armor, bulletproof vehicles, and kidnap protection defend against extreme threats to personal safety.
[12:21.470 --> 12:28.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Secure radio, telephone, and fax, as well as voice and data encryption, carry communication safely from point to point.
[12:28.570 --> 12:31.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Recording nullifiers render tape recorders useless.
[12:32.530 --> 12:39.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Access controls and sophisticated airport security guard against unwanted and dangerous intrusions.
[12:40.950 --> 12:42.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Body armor.
[12:42.430 --> 12:42.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Here we go.
[12:43.270 --> 12:44.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Armored jacket.
[12:44.430 --> 12:49.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: A weatherproof sporting jacket designed to protect you during outdoor surveillance operations.
[12:50.030 --> 12:53.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Protection between full front side and rear coverage.
[12:53.310 --> 12:55.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Available as vest and as full length coats.
[12:55.590 --> 12:59.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: All sizes and styles for complete product line and pricing contact us.
[13:00.130 --> 13:01.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bulletproof vehicles.
[13:01.490 --> 13:01.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
[13:02.070 --> 13:04.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: CCS has been armoring cars for over 40 years.
[13:04.810 --> 13:09.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: And in that time, we have accumulated many demo models, which are completely fitted with fully functional armor.
[13:09.750 --> 13:14.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Most vehicles are in excellent condition with about 1,200 to 10,000 miles on them.
[13:14.710 --> 13:17.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: These vehicles are reduced in price and ready for immediate delivery.
[13:19.310 --> 13:20.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Kidnap protection.
[13:20.490 --> 13:21.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is the interesting one.
[13:21.890 --> 13:25.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: We want $400,000 in cash or your chief executive dies.
[13:26.490 --> 13:27.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's the sales pitch.
[13:27.850 --> 13:28.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can you believe it?
[13:29.010 --> 13:30.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, if you can look over that.
[13:31.270 --> 13:34.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Be prepared for the real possibility of kidnap.
[13:34.190 --> 13:45.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: The AJ1800PKR transmitter is specifically designed to alert security personnel of kidnap and to track the victim, thus facilitating rescue and substantial saving of money.
[13:45.830 --> 13:47.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: Track contraband.
[13:47.450 --> 13:48.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Find stolen vehicles.
[13:48.730 --> 13:49.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Protect VIPs.
[13:49.890 --> 13:51.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Rescue kidnap victims.
[13:52.030 --> 13:54.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sounds like something we should all get involved in.
[13:54.930 --> 13:56.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, we could rent this stuff out.
[13:56.870 --> 13:59.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Personal safety theft-proof briefcases.
[13:59.450 --> 14:00.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: How do you think this works?
[14:00.590 --> 14:04.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: A thief grabs your briefcase full of valuables, cash, and important papers.
[14:05.910 --> 14:09.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: You press a remote button, which you carry on your keychain.
[14:10.150 --> 14:16.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: And instantly, instantly, 35,000 volts of electric power sizzle through the stolen briefcase handle.
[14:16.930 --> 14:17.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
[14:18.470 --> 14:21.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: The thief drops the case and either runs or dies in the spot.
[14:22.730 --> 14:24.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, you get your briefcase back.
[14:24.730 --> 14:26.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Of course, I don't know how you're supposed to, um...
[14:26.970 --> 14:27.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I don't know.
[14:28.610 --> 14:30.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess you have to do it within a certain amount of time.
[14:30.850 --> 14:37.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: And what happens if someone else buys the same thing and happens to be walking by you carrying their briefcase when you hit that button?
[14:37.550 --> 14:40.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope they have, uh, different codes for different briefcases.
[14:41.650 --> 14:42.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Imagine.
[14:42.090 --> 14:43.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Imagine what you can do with that, you know?
[14:44.290 --> 14:45.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: 35,000 volts.
[14:45.330 --> 14:48.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, the security blanket AL-22.
[14:48.830 --> 14:52.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Completely immobilize any attacker with a blinding burst of light.
[14:52.430 --> 14:54.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: This safe and proven...
[14:54.090 --> 14:56.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, it's completely safe and proven to blind somebody.
[14:57.330 --> 14:59.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, it's a flashlight-type device.
[14:59.110 --> 15:00.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a must for any home or office.
[15:01.590 --> 15:04.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know what kind of world these people are living in, but, uh, yes.
[15:04.790 --> 15:07.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Blinding people, that's a must for any office or home.
[15:07.570 --> 15:11.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: For a complete product line and prices, you can, uh, contact them online.
[15:11.430 --> 15:13.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: www.spyline.com.
[15:14.270 --> 15:16.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, and they have a phone number, too.
[15:16.630 --> 15:17.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, they have two different phone numbers.
[15:18.090 --> 15:19.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: One for the East Coast, one for the West Coast.
[15:19.950 --> 15:20.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, I'm gonna...
[15:20.470 --> 15:23.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm gonna give our East Coast listeners a number this week.
[15:23.950 --> 15:24.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe the West Coast next week.
[15:25.110 --> 15:27.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: 1-800-722-4490.
[15:28.110 --> 15:32.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you get the, uh, 35,000-volt briefcase, do bring it by the radio station.
[15:32.950 --> 15:33.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'd like to play with it a little bit.
[15:34.830 --> 15:42.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: The, uh, FTC, Federal Trade Commission, on Wednesday, last Wednesday, said it halted an illegal pyramid scheme.
[15:42.950 --> 15:47.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Actually, I don't think there are any legal pyramid schemes, but, uh, whatever it is, they halted it.
[15:47.390 --> 15:48.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: It was on the Internet.
[15:48.550 --> 15:51.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: It built thousands of investors for more than $6 million.
[15:51.790 --> 15:54.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I don't know how anybody can be foolish enough to fall for these things.
[15:55.170 --> 15:57.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, it's so obviously a scam, you know?
[15:57.690 --> 15:58.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, it's like these, these chain letters.
[15:59.510 --> 16:04.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, just send this out and, you know, somehow get money back if you give us lots of money.
[16:04.090 --> 16:05.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: It doesn't make any sense.
[16:05.650 --> 16:10.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: The FTC said the case was its largest to date involving fraud on the World Wide Computer Network.
[16:10.790 --> 16:18.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: The agency obtained a federal court order temporarily halting the scheme carried out by a company called Fortuna Alliance of Bellingham, Washington.
[16:19.270 --> 16:24.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: The temporary restraining order freezes the company's assets and appoints a receiver to manage the company.
[16:25.030 --> 16:31.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: The FTC also asked the court to issue a permanent injunction that would provide remedies for consumers hurt by the alleged scam.
[16:31.370 --> 16:32.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think we might have Bernie S.
[16:32.850 --> 16:33.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: on the line.
[16:34.190 --> 16:35.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is Bernie S.
[16:35.110 --> 16:35.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: on the line?
[16:36.150 --> 16:37.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, somebody hung up.
[16:37.570 --> 16:40.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I guess, uh, I guess they didn't like the sound of my voice.
[16:40.850 --> 16:41.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll try that again in a few minutes.
[16:42.650 --> 16:54.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, behind all the techno jargon and the mathematical mumbo-jumbo, this is just an elaborate electronic version of a chain letter, said Jody Bernstein, director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection.
[16:55.190 --> 17:00.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: People are told that if they sign up and send money, they'll eventually end up at the top of the pyramid collecting from those at the bottom.
[17:01.110 --> 17:03.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: But most people never make it to the top.
[17:05.230 --> 17:09.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: AT&T has a collect call from Bernie S.
[17:10.070 --> 17:12.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: at the Bucks County Correctional Facility.
[17:13.550 --> 17:15.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: To reduce this call, hang up.
[17:16.690 --> 17:22.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you accept this call, do not use three-way or call-waiting features or you will be disconnected.
[17:23.230 --> 17:25.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: To accept this call, dial one now.
[17:27.310 --> 17:28.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[17:29.130 --> 17:29.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bernie S.
[17:30.430 --> 17:31.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[17:31.530 --> 17:32.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Welcome to the program.
[17:32.790 --> 17:33.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[17:33.550 --> 17:36.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Welcome to, uh, Bucks County Prison.
[17:36.170 --> 17:36.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, yes.
[17:37.010 --> 17:43.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's nice we have this little exchange program going on that brings the culture of your little habitat there to ours and vice versa.
[17:44.530 --> 17:49.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're just, uh, concluding a story about pyramid schemes on the internet and how they're being shut down.
[17:50.190 --> 17:53.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, you know, wondering how people could ever fall for something like that in the first place.
[17:53.910 --> 17:56.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, as, uh, was it P.T.
[17:56.890 --> 18:02.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Barnum who said nobody ever went broke underestimating the, uh, intelligence of, uh, the public?
[18:02.650 --> 18:04.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess he said something like that, yes.
[18:04.750 --> 18:05.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, he did do that.
[18:06.270 --> 18:08.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, that's pretty much it as far as that story goes.
[18:08.670 --> 18:09.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Tell us what's, uh, what's new with you.
[18:09.930 --> 18:11.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Any, uh, any progress on getting you released?
[18:11.910 --> 18:13.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: No real progress.
[18:14.090 --> 18:25.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I've finally established a point of contact in the, in the system, as it were, to, uh, to try to, uh, establish rapport with as far as figuring out, uh, when I'm going to release.
[18:26.210 --> 18:42.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: According to my lawyer's analysis and my analysis of the judge's sentencing order, which was, uh, uh, handed down on March 5th this year, which you were present for, uh, I should receive credit for a certain amount of time served last year on a sentence,
[18:42.930 --> 18:45.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: which was, uh, on the charges which were later dropped.
[18:45.990 --> 18:51.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, according to, uh, his analysis, my analysis, by midnight tonight, I am eligible for parole.
[18:52.150 --> 18:56.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: However, no one from the state parole board has corresponded with me or spoken with me.
[18:56.570 --> 19:13.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: And as a result of, uh, certain officials in Northampton County, eastern Pennsylvania, choosing to ignore the judge's sentencing decree, I am going to be incarcerated longer than is, in my mind, necessary, although I think this whole thing was unnecessary.
[19:13.770 --> 19:14.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, yeah, obviously.
[19:15.310 --> 19:21.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, all right, so it's gotten to the point where they're holding you longer than they should be holding you, even by their own definitions.
[19:21.990 --> 19:24.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, what is it that, uh, that we can do at this point?
[19:24.870 --> 19:41.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, by, by the, the system's definition, when you're given a sentencing range, in my case, for this misdemeanor charge of allegedly removing batteries from a touchtone dialer a couple of years ago, uh, the sentence was six to 24 months, and after six months one is eligible for parole.
[19:41.430 --> 19:56.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: Technically, it's a two-year sentence, but, since it was set up as a six to 24-month sentence, I am eligible for parole after, eligible for parole after six months, and by the, by my lawyers and my interpretation of the sentencing decree handed down on March 5th,
[19:56.190 --> 19:57.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: um, I'm eligible for parole at midnight tonight.
[19:58.690 --> 20:11.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, short of, names and phone numbers of people to complain to, um, which could aggravate the situation by pissing these officials off, and then they would certainly not, uh, want to do anything on my behalf.
[20:12.010 --> 20:13.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I don't think there's a whole lot to get me done.
[20:13.970 --> 20:19.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm going to wait until the end of the week to see if there's, uh, any response to another letter we sent to another official.
[20:19.750 --> 20:26.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if nothing was received at that point, I don't know if there's anything we have to lose by, uh, making some noise about this.
[20:26.030 --> 20:34.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, I've been pretty agitated all day knowing that, uh, I should be out midnight tonight by my lawyer's analysis of the sentencing decree and my own.
[20:34.550 --> 20:36.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I'm not going to be released.
[20:36.830 --> 20:44.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: That is a pretty shameful turn of events and nothing at all out of the ordinary as far as this whole case which has been going on now for, uh, what is it, a year and a half?
[20:44.930 --> 20:53.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, Well, it started, uh, well, you could say it started in August of 93 with the touch-tone dial-up incident.
[20:53.850 --> 20:57.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, the Secret Service got involved in March of last year.
[20:57.630 --> 21:07.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, so I've been in prison for roughly a year now as a result of, uh, a new federal statute that was only enacted a few weeks before I was charged with it.
[21:07.570 --> 21:14.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, sort of, the mere possession of, uh, certain hardware and software that anybody can get at any RadioShack store at the internet.
[21:14.470 --> 21:38.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: What people who may not be familiar with the background in my case is that I'm not charged with doing anything illegal as far as, uh, perpetrating any telecommunications fraud or, uh, committing any acts other than just simply possessing extremely common hardware and software that anybody can buy any RadioShack store or software which can be downloaded off the internet.
[21:38.830 --> 21:44.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: The crime is for possession of something that could be used illegally, not for actually using it illegally.
[21:44.550 --> 21:50.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm challenging that in federal courts, uh, later this year that the statute, the statute is unconstitutionally vague.
[21:51.650 --> 21:54.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, I'm sitting in prison until then, apparently.
[21:55.430 --> 22:00.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, certainly within their interest to keep you there so that you can't challenge this, uh, particular law.
[22:00.490 --> 22:08.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's pretty hard to, to, uh, marshal, uh, a federal, uh, circuit court's appeal case while you're behind bars.
[22:09.170 --> 22:13.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: You just don't have access to the normal resources that one would need to do that.
[22:13.630 --> 22:21.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, there's no federal, uh, case law here even in a law library to prison which is required by a federal law.
[22:21.150 --> 22:24.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, I don't have access to materials that I need to prepare my case.
[22:24.390 --> 22:29.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: And my attorney's working on it, but the technical aspects of it are, are something I'm more up on than he is.
[22:29.990 --> 22:31.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: He's more up on the legal aspects of it.
[22:31.690 --> 22:37.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, unfortunately, I don't have access to materials that I, uh, that I need to to work on this appeal.
[22:37.190 --> 22:47.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I, I think the Secret Service is a hidden agenda or one of their hidden agendas in this case was to keep me in prison as long as possible to thwart my being able to succeed with my appeal.
[22:47.330 --> 22:59.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because if I win this, uh, appeal, everyone who's convicted of this new statute since I was charged with it, I happen to be the first person in the country charged with it, but other people have been convicted of it since then, their case, their convictions will have to be lifted as well.
[22:59.330 --> 23:09.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, the Secret Service doesn't want this new vague law to be off the books because, uh, it's a very valuable, powerful tool for them to, uh, persecute hackers in my mind.
[23:09.870 --> 23:10.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely.
[23:10.570 --> 23:17.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, we have no doubt this will be used again, uh, to, to prosecute more hackers, uh, under the, the most nebulous of terms.
[23:17.930 --> 23:25.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Here's something that, uh, that comes from a book that, uh, we might be able to use to, uh, to get some Secret Service agents fired by their own, by their own rules.
[23:25.810 --> 23:34.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, a month after Bill Clinton was elected, the Secret Service sent a teletype to all of its 2,051 agents warning them not to talk to the press without first clearing it with headquarters.
[23:35.350 --> 23:39.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: After Clinton had been sworn in on January 15, 1993, another teletype went out.
[23:39.590 --> 23:42.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: The Secret Service had a one-voice policy, the message said.
[23:42.550 --> 23:46.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: In other words, only those Secret Service officials anointed to talk to the press could do so.
[23:46.930 --> 23:56.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: In April, after Newsweek quoted Secret Service agents as saying Hillary Rodden Clinton had thrown a lamp at her husband, the Secret Service sent out a third teletype repeating the previous warnings.
[23:56.410 --> 23:57.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: The message was clear.
[23:57.650 --> 24:00.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Anyone caught talking to the press would be fired.
[24:00.710 --> 24:03.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, now, I believe Tom Barney has talked to the press.
[24:03.310 --> 24:03.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Has he not?
[24:05.390 --> 24:05.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-oh.
[24:05.830 --> 24:05.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-oh.
[24:05.970 --> 24:05.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-oh.
[24:05.990 --> 24:18.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Barty, who serves the Philadelphia office has been to the press on numerous occasions pertaining to my case, and I'm not sure if he was specifically anointed by, uh, by Washington as being an official press spokesperson.
[24:18.150 --> 24:21.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: I doubt it, and I've certainly seen no evidence to, uh, to that effect.
[24:22.110 --> 24:27.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, I'm very curious as to whether Mr. Barney's violation of this White House decree.
[24:27.570 --> 24:29.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: So maybe that can be looked into.
[24:29.630 --> 24:37.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I'll be making a call to, uh, to the headquarters to report this incident to see if, uh, maybe we can, we can, uh, have it stopped.
[24:38.030 --> 24:41.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Perhaps have him, uh, you know, brought up on some sort of charge for doing this.
[24:41.210 --> 24:45.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: I, uh, I, uh, I'm not going to hold my breath that any, any action will be taken against him.
[24:45.450 --> 24:54.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, certainly, uh, there's another example of the government not following its own rules when, uh, when they have, uh, have another agenda.
[24:54.690 --> 24:55.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's true.
[24:55.970 --> 25:02.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, there's another case which, uh, is, is beginning to come back into the spotlight, and that's the Kevin Mitnick case.
[25:02.230 --> 25:08.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, the, the, the charges still have not been filed with this, uh, particular case.
[25:08.730 --> 25:13.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's going to, uh, to start happening this summer one way or another.
[25:14.150 --> 25:20.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I know one of the deals that, that, that has been passed around, uh, involves something on the order.
[25:21.090 --> 25:22.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is, this is what they're offering.
[25:22.790 --> 25:25.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're offering something on the order of 10 years in prison.
[25:26.050 --> 25:29.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: 10 years in prison and, and a fine of about $80 million.
[25:30.570 --> 25:32.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is the deal.
[25:32.230 --> 25:38.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, usually the deal is, is supposed to be something, uh, um, a lot, uh, better than the worst possible case.
[25:38.310 --> 25:46.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, what they're saying by offering a deal like this is that, uh, if Kevin were to go to trial, he could, he could wind up in prison for life maybe, or be fined billions of dollars.
[25:46.370 --> 25:46.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Who knows?
[25:47.110 --> 25:52.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, it's just, it's gotten to the stage where the things that they are saying just don't make any sense.
[25:52.390 --> 25:59.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, there is no way that, that any one person, especially, uh, Kevin Mitnick, could have caused so much damage.
[25:59.110 --> 26:13.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Basically, if you followed the story, uh, this was somebody who, uh, was a fugitive for a few months, uh, lived under fake names, made some free phone calls, logged onto some computer systems, I guess, uh, used other people's accounts, so I don't know what is exactly they're,
[26:13.550 --> 26:15.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: they're, they're accusing him of, that, that hasn't even come out yet.
[26:16.350 --> 26:17.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: How does that amount to $80 million?
[26:18.230 --> 26:19.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: How does that amount to 10 years in prison?
[26:19.930 --> 26:27.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, you look at this person, you look at where he is now, he's been in prison for almost a year and a half, I mean, where do, where do you stop?
[26:27.590 --> 26:28.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Where do you stop with the punishment?
[26:29.070 --> 26:31.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, and, you know, when do you start defining the actual crime?
[26:32.510 --> 26:44.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think the figure service is clearly trying to make examples out of some people and, and, uh, scare, uh, uh, open-minded people into avoiding, uh, hacking as a hobby in my mind.
[26:44.410 --> 26:59.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, Kevin Mitnick, while, uh, we all may have our own opinions about him, and I don't, he's not a friend of mine in any case, he's, uh, I don't think he's, uh, caused, uh, physical destruction of, uh, people's property or injured anyone personally.
[27:00.470 --> 27:13.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, he may have been poking around systems he shouldn't have and not access to computer systems that he shouldn't have been in, but, uh, to blame the messenger for security loopholes that, uh, that shouldn't have been there in the first place, I think,
[27:13.810 --> 27:27.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: is a, just a, poor logic, and to incarcerate someone for, potentially, the rest of his life for, uh, finding holes in systems and, uh, pointing them out rather than, uh, using them for financial gain, I think is wrong.
[27:27.990 --> 27:34.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, what, what they have already done to him has, has been irreparable, irreparable damage to his life.
[27:35.110 --> 27:44.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's brought irreparable damage because, you know, you put somebody in prison for this amount of time, and, and the same holds true for you, obviously, uh, it, it has a lasting effect.
[27:44.010 --> 27:48.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not something you can just, like, brush off and, and, and start your life over again.
[27:48.230 --> 28:01.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've, you've lost this time, you've had this miserable experience, and, uh, you know, to, to some people who, uh, who don't hold up as well, you actually start to believe that you're guilty of something, that you deserve to be treated like this.
[28:01.810 --> 28:06.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, um, it's really kind of sick the way this is all panning out right now.
[28:06.350 --> 28:07.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's very sick.
[28:07.410 --> 28:12.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: I, I wonder myself about, uh, when I'm finally released, how this is going to affect the rest of my life.
[28:12.590 --> 28:17.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: I certainly hope I can put it behind me, but it's not the kind of thing, uh, that you simply can just write off.
[28:17.410 --> 28:22.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I, I feel very, uh, violated by this whole experience.
[28:22.330 --> 28:42.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, not to say that it's equivalent to being raped in any way, but it's, uh, it's not unlike that in certain respects, feeling, uh, having your liberty, uh, taken away from you and being held with, uh, with violence and really nasty people for a long period of time and subjected to,
[28:42.150 --> 28:51.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: uh, day after day of, of, of, of just completely illogical reasoning for keeping you in prison is, uh, it takes its toll.
[28:51.690 --> 28:57.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I hope I can put it behind me, but it's something I don't think I'm, I'm certain I'm never going to forget.
[28:57.590 --> 29:00.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I think we'll have long-range repercussions.
[29:00.350 --> 29:08.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: The, the, the whole idea of, uh, the criminal, uh, uh, correction system, uh, being named as it is, is, is a, uh, farce.
[29:08.210 --> 29:11.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, it's just, there's no corrections going on in this or any other institutions.
[29:11.690 --> 29:13.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, if anything, it just makes people angrier and bitter.
[29:14.550 --> 29:22.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I'm not surprised at the majority of people who get out of prison and electing the new crimes again, because the system, uh, makes them worse for the wearer after they get out.
[29:22.730 --> 29:24.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: So it's, it's a, it's a big, complex problem.
[29:24.690 --> 29:30.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't have the answers to it, but I know what's, what's what's put into effect now certainly isn't working.
[29:30.930 --> 29:31.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely not.
[29:31.630 --> 29:46.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, and by criminalizing things which are not by any, uh, real stretch of the imagination, crimes that, uh, that deserve the kind of treatment that you and Kevin have been getting, uh, it simply creates a, a lot of very cynical people, a lot of prisoners,
[29:46.450 --> 29:49.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: and also a lot of cynical people that are not in the prison system right now.
[29:49.930 --> 29:57.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't really know where this is kind of wind up going if it keeps going at this rate, but it's, it's not a very, very healthy place that's going to wind up.
[29:57.810 --> 30:02.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, we're going to take some phone calls 212-279-3400 if people want to, uh, get in early.
[30:02.710 --> 30:03.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now's the time.
[30:03.510 --> 30:14.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you know, Bernie, we were talking about, um, the Belcor Tiger team, how they were, um, they, they offered to break into your computer system and show you how, how easy it is.
[30:14.710 --> 30:24.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're sort of paralleling that to, um, to last week when we were talking about the Defense Department and how it's like, um, the numbers can be distorted so easily.
[30:24.390 --> 30:30.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: People can believe things that just are not true, uh, based on, on what experts say.
[30:30.570 --> 30:39.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Experts say, well, since we were able to get in, this means that 10,000 hackers could easily get in as well, and then all of a sudden you have 10,000 hackers coming up out of nowhere that are breaking into your computer system.
[30:40.290 --> 30:44.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, who, who is this defining the facts and the terms and all that kind of thing?
[30:44.550 --> 31:01.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think, uh, government experts or just experts in general who, uh, say they know about something, uh, they will, they'll say, they'll, they'll trot out, uh, you know, false reasoning and false logic that, that, uh, non-technical people will just have to believe because they're not informed.
[31:01.650 --> 31:14.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's one of the reasons I think people should, uh, find out as much as possible about computer technology and telecommunications technology and hacking so they can interpret these, uh, so-called experts' opinions more rationally.
[31:16.190 --> 31:16.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's true.
[31:17.490 --> 31:24.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, well, we have all kinds of, uh, regulations that we're working with, uh, battling now, uh, in this country.
[31:24.410 --> 31:27.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: For instance, um, the Communications Decency Act.
[31:27.390 --> 31:31.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's a story in, uh, today's paper, uh, today's New York Times.
[31:32.110 --> 31:41.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: If the Communications Decency Act is upheld, online news publishers who cannot afford currently available mechanisms for blocking indecent material from children will be forced into self-censorship.
[31:42.070 --> 31:53.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, what we are left with is a situation when no ordinary user of the internet has a way of navigating into the safe harbor defenses to the law, said Randall Bowe, lawyer for Joseph Shea, the publisher of an online newspaper.
[31:54.390 --> 31:57.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, there would be no way for Shea to make sure indecent material was unavailable to minors.
[31:57.970 --> 32:00.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: He'd have no choice but to engage in self-censorship.
[32:00.530 --> 32:16.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: The setting was federal court downtown Manhattan where a three-judge panel heard closing arguments in one of, uh, two cases challenging the four-month-old law, which makes it a crime to publish indecent materials in areas of cyberspace where those younger than 18 years of age can view it.
[32:16.130 --> 32:26.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: And with all of those people under 18 being, uh, confined to the indoors because of the nationwide curfews, which will be imposed soon, they'll be doing nothing but surfing the web and looking at indecent things.
[32:26.410 --> 32:30.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I think the whole country is losing its mind, to be honest, but that's just my personal feeling.
[32:31.490 --> 32:43.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, another country, though, where things maybe are heading, Vietnam has issued regulations giving the government broad powers to control access to the internet and shut down any services deemed harmful to national interests.
[32:43.890 --> 32:55.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: The rules come even before Vietnam establishes full-fledged commercial internet links and illustrate the government's determination to prevent new technology from undermining its high control over the media and culture.
[32:55.990 --> 33:07.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, some of the conditions, service providers must agree to government inspections and absolutely obey the government's decisions on mobilizing parts of or the entire network for its own use.
[33:07.410 --> 33:11.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: The directorate also has authority to partially or completely shut down service networks.
[33:11.810 --> 33:18.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, service providers must take measures to prevent sources of bad information from entering Vietnam, the rules say.
[33:18.970 --> 33:24.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: That means if somebody asks what a red box is an IRC and and they give the wrong answer, that's a crime of some sort.
[33:25.550 --> 33:36.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, the rules banning searching, printing, and transmitting data that can affect national security, social order, and safety, or information that is not appropriate to the culture, morality, and traditional customs of the Vietnamese people.
[33:36.810 --> 33:40.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: And of course, the sweeping ban is left open to interpretation by the directorate.
[33:41.050 --> 33:45.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, quite a bit different than what we have here, but there are quite a few similarities as well.
[33:46.790 --> 33:47.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bernie, you still there?
[33:47.690 --> 33:48.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm still here.
[33:48.490 --> 34:04.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was just listening and thinking about how, uh, how governments always seem to get very excited about, uh, people having access to, uh, to modes of getting information across to large numbers of people in a short period of time, whether it's printing press,
[34:04.890 --> 34:06.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: radio, television, or now the Internet.
[34:07.110 --> 34:16.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, the government always wants to have their, their hand on it to prevent, uh, unpopular, uh, ideas from, uh, from getting out, I think.
[34:16.350 --> 34:27.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: And the Internet is going to pose a whole host of problems for them, and, uh, I think they're grappling and trying to figure out how to, how to deal with this, and they're finding out that there's really not a heck of a lot they can do about it practically.
[34:27.990 --> 34:28.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's certainly true.
[34:28.870 --> 34:36.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've been grappling now for a while, and I think it's about time they stop grappling and just come to terms with, uh, the reality of the situation and let the rest of us get on with our lives.
[34:36.970 --> 34:38.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: 212-279-3400.
[34:38.430 --> 34:39.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's take our first phone call.
[34:46.470 --> 34:48.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: First, what's the, uh, number for the Bell Corps?
[34:48.430 --> 34:49.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think I'm going to play around with that.
[34:50.190 --> 34:50.510]  Okay.
[34:50.970 --> 34:54.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, now, I don't want to, uh, get anybody in trouble here, but, uh, this is...
[34:54.030 --> 34:54.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[34:54.510 --> 34:55.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't hear it from you.
[34:55.630 --> 34:58.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you heard it from me on a 50,001 radio station.
[34:58.430 --> 34:59.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: What do you mean you didn't hear it from me?
[34:59.330 --> 34:59.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Eh, whatever.
[34:59.910 --> 35:04.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, 1-800-521-COR, but only call them if you want them to break into your computer system.
[35:05.310 --> 35:06.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, okay.
[35:06.430 --> 35:08.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Of course, first they have to find you, but, uh...
[35:08.350 --> 35:09.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: I have a question.
[35:10.070 --> 35:10.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, go ahead.
[35:10.670 --> 35:12.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: About the, uh...
[35:12.650 --> 35:14.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Also, about Kevin Mitnick.
[35:14.230 --> 35:14.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[35:14.790 --> 35:16.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is a statement he made in the book.
[35:17.050 --> 35:18.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Which one was it?
[35:18.350 --> 35:20.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Fugitive Game by John Littman?
[35:20.810 --> 35:21.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[35:21.170 --> 35:37.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: He said that if he went out and stole a big pen, you know, a normal pen, they would charge him with a $7, a $7 million production and product development campaign and $3 million worth of advertising.
[35:37.470 --> 35:38.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's really what they're doing.
[35:39.410 --> 35:47.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're leaving out the, uh, the education of the people that developed it in the first place and the buildings that they had to build and the people that built them and all kinds of other things.
[35:48.250 --> 35:51.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, yeah, that's how, that's how they come up with these ridiculous figures.
[35:51.790 --> 35:55.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the thing is, we don't have the information necessary to challenge it.
[35:55.430 --> 35:58.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, all of these figures are just believed.
[35:58.430 --> 36:03.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, also, don't they have to provide an itemized statement of these things?
[36:04.190 --> 36:06.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, if challenged, they do.
[36:06.230 --> 36:09.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: The thing is, they're not being challenged, uh, emphatically enough.
[36:09.670 --> 36:17.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, yeah, we normal, everyday people are challenging them, but that's not enough to get them to, uh, uh, to give us full disclosure of what it is they're actually doing.
[36:18.250 --> 36:26.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, because I know in the Knight-Lightning case, they at least told them what they were trying to pin, like, $42,000 or whatever on them for.
[36:26.350 --> 36:26.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right, well...
[36:26.730 --> 36:29.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: copying that's the E9-911 document.
[36:29.610 --> 36:41.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, Electronic Frontier Foundation was able to get a breakdown of exactly how much, how they arrived at that $79,000 figure, and you saw that they included entire computer systems and the salary of the secretary and things like that.
[36:41.570 --> 36:44.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then they came out to them for 12 hours, they had that little, uh, catalog of documents.
[36:45.170 --> 36:45.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: For one document.
[36:46.150 --> 36:49.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right, and that's, uh, you can imagine what they're going to try and pin on Kevin.
[36:50.110 --> 36:52.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: They have not, uh, learned their lesson as far as that goes, I'm sure.
[36:56.730 --> 36:59.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: They charge people with things by gross exaggeration.
[37:00.110 --> 37:01.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: And one more thing.
[37:02.290 --> 37:07.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: But how does the government get off regulating people about the internet when they don't actually own it?
[37:07.970 --> 37:16.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's basically like the government going out and saying, let's say, reclaim the right to govern, govern something like Great Britain.
[37:16.110 --> 37:17.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: The truth is, they don't own it.
[37:17.390 --> 37:18.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they also don't...
[37:18.210 --> 37:18.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: They do not own...
[37:18.510 --> 37:19.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: They can regulate their own servers.
[37:20.090 --> 37:24.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: They don't own the electromagnetic spectrum either, but they somehow have a right to that as well.
[37:24.810 --> 37:26.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, they don't own the telephone line.
[37:26.350 --> 37:27.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: They don't own the servers.
[37:27.670 --> 37:27.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[37:28.150 --> 37:30.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: They don't own anything.
[37:30.630 --> 37:31.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just not theirs.
[37:32.030 --> 37:33.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's only one reason.
[37:33.310 --> 37:34.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's because we let them.
[37:34.590 --> 37:35.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's why.
[37:35.470 --> 37:36.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, the government...
[37:36.610 --> 37:37.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I'm not letting them.
[37:37.210 --> 37:41.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, the government is put into place by us, and we entrust them to do certain things.
[37:41.870 --> 37:43.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: And occasionally, they just sort of...
[37:43.130 --> 37:47.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: They spin out of control, like, you know, some sort of a rocket that got launched.
[37:47.270 --> 37:52.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you have to sometimes, you know, deal with that and figure out ways of reining it in.
[37:52.410 --> 37:52.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hmm.
[37:54.710 --> 37:55.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: And what?
[37:55.550 --> 37:58.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: The spring edition of 2600's out now?
[37:58.230 --> 37:58.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's out.
[37:58.930 --> 37:59.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have it right here in my hand.
[38:00.050 --> 38:00.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh.
[38:00.910 --> 38:01.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.
[38:01.250 --> 38:02.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's...
[38:02.170 --> 38:05.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Actually, it's been out for about a month, but there was some trouble with the newsstands.
[38:06.070 --> 38:06.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[38:06.770 --> 38:08.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you, and goodbye.
[38:08.790 --> 38:08.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[38:09.130 --> 38:09.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for calling.
[38:10.450 --> 38:12.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bernie, I believe you have your copy of 2600.
[38:12.710 --> 38:13.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: I did.
[38:13.290 --> 38:15.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: It actually was allowed into this institution.
[38:16.050 --> 38:16.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's interesting.
[38:16.750 --> 38:18.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was not permitted to be...
[38:18.230 --> 38:22.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was not allowed to receive it at Delaware County Prison near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
[38:22.230 --> 38:25.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was not allowed to receive it in federal prison.
[38:26.130 --> 38:27.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: They said it was not in keeping with the
[38:31.650 --> 38:35.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: sound, orderly and safe operation of the institution, I think is how it was worded.
[38:35.290 --> 38:43.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: You see, that disturbs me because whenever we put out an issue, the first thing we always think of is the sound, orderly operation of prisons and how we don't want to disrupt that.
[38:44.250 --> 38:49.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: So when they say that we are disrupting that, it's like a personal stab in the back, you know?
[38:49.810 --> 38:51.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I took offense at it, too.
[38:52.110 --> 39:04.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: But what I find always ironic is that these prisons will show videos for the inmates of R-rated movies where people are using and selling drugs and murdering people and stabbing people, shooting people.
[39:04.790 --> 39:05.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, that's all okay.
[39:06.070 --> 39:13.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: But sending a magazine that explains how computers work is certainly not in keeping with the safe and orderly operations of the institution.
[39:13.470 --> 39:17.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I think we can all follow that logic to its natural destination.
[39:17.650 --> 39:19.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, 212-279-3400.
[39:19.990 --> 39:20.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[39:20.450 --> 39:20.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're on the air.
[39:20.870 --> 39:22.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, I'm Ben.
[39:22.870 --> 39:23.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, Ben.
[39:23.770 --> 39:25.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I was wondering...
[39:26.310 --> 39:30.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, um, I just wanted to say, um, how do you feel...
[39:30.010 --> 39:34.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did you read that article in the New York Times by Clifford Stoll in the op-ed?
[39:34.470 --> 39:35.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, no.
[39:35.250 --> 39:35.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: When was this?
[39:35.890 --> 39:40.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, a few weeks ago about, um, like, the computers in the classrooms.
[39:40.470 --> 39:41.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: What do you wind up saying about them?
[39:42.130 --> 39:48.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: About how it's really that, like, they're putting them all in, but you should really just rely on the teachers more and stuff.
[39:48.930 --> 39:49.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: How do you feel about that?
[39:49.990 --> 40:01.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I think, you know, just putting computers in both the home and the classroom and having the teachers and parents step back, it's not a very healthy thing because you're losing a lot of, uh, human interaction, which I think is very important to, uh,
[40:01.790 --> 40:03.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: to the growing up process.
[40:03.610 --> 40:11.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, computers are great, but, uh, they have to be coupled with, uh, you know, various relationships with the people that, uh, that you're interacting with.
[40:11.810 --> 40:12.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I know, but...
[40:12.590 --> 40:15.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: And if you give up on that, you know, you're just going to have a lot of people just wandering around.
[40:15.370 --> 40:28.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because in my high school this year, like, they just proved, like, a technology bond, so now, like, all the classrooms have computers and stuff, and they're networking with school, but, I mean, we don't even have tissues, or, like, the bathrooms don't even work,
[40:28.490 --> 40:32.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: and, like, all we do on the computer is just play games and stuff.
[40:32.250 --> 40:34.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, the teachers barely even know how to use them.
[40:34.210 --> 40:35.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just really a waste.
[40:35.350 --> 40:45.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and then what happens is, uh, students figure out a way to, uh, to gain access to something the teachers don't want, and they gain access to, and then they get in trouble because the, uh, the teacher has absolutely no idea what they're doing, and they think that this person is,
[40:46.050 --> 40:50.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: uh, you know, the second coming of Satan, and And they're ostracized forever.
[40:50.590 --> 40:53.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's kind of like what they think of me in the library at my school.
[40:54.270 --> 40:57.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just like looking around on the network and stuff.
[40:57.350 --> 41:00.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they're like, oh, get out of the library.
[41:00.970 --> 41:04.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just like seeing how it is set up and stuff.
[41:04.390 --> 41:08.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I mean, you should experiment as much as possible because that's the whole purpose of computers.
[41:08.950 --> 41:15.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: But be prepared to meet up against a brick wall of stupidity with people that don't know what they're doing.
[41:15.070 --> 41:18.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: But for some reason they have control of it.
[41:18.850 --> 41:24.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Actually, you know, the school system is sort of like a microcosm of the way the whole government is set up.
[41:27.870 --> 41:28.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Also...
[41:28.230 --> 41:30.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: What school is this, by the way?
[41:30.650 --> 41:32.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maranick High School in Westchester.
[41:32.710 --> 41:32.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[41:34.270 --> 41:38.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Also, like on the electromagnetic spectrum...
[41:38.430 --> 41:38.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[41:38.810 --> 41:41.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I don't think they really have a right to go to.
[41:41.810 --> 41:43.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's like a part of physics.
[41:43.430 --> 41:45.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's like just there.
[41:45.370 --> 41:47.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: How can the government just say that it's there?
[41:47.230 --> 41:48.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: If they could bill you for gravity, they would.
[41:49.010 --> 41:50.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: But they haven't figured out a way to do that yet.
[41:50.990 --> 41:52.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, yeah, I agree with you.
[41:52.170 --> 41:56.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think there needs to be some sort of voluntary compliance system.
[41:58.230 --> 42:06.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the way it is now is really unfair to people who want to broadcast things, for instance, on a community level.
[42:07.330 --> 42:10.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Low-power community radio stations exist in various parts of the country.
[42:10.590 --> 42:16.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: And according to the FCC, they're illegal, but they've been upheld in federal courts as being perfectly legal.
[42:16.890 --> 42:21.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's a battle that lies ahead and hasn't yet hit New York, but I guess it will at some point.
[42:22.470 --> 42:22.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[42:23.490 --> 42:24.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just one more thing.
[42:24.430 --> 42:25.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: How's Walter doing?
[42:25.670 --> 42:27.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Walter the dog is doing just fine.
[42:27.330 --> 42:27.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[42:27.590 --> 42:28.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Walter the human is doing fine, too.
[42:29.590 --> 42:30.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: We appreciate that very much.
[42:31.410 --> 42:34.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: These are the official 2600 pet there.
[42:35.850 --> 42:39.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Actually, someone in the studio wanted to know what kind of computers you had in that place.
[42:39.830 --> 42:43.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, they're like Dell, like 75 megahertz Pentiums.
[42:44.130 --> 42:44.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[42:44.610 --> 42:48.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they, like, have all Windows 95 on them, which I think is pretty stupid.
[42:48.430 --> 42:49.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's all you need.
[42:50.070 --> 42:51.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, Windows 95.
[42:51.490 --> 42:54.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm, like, telling them how, like, unstable and stuff it is.
[42:54.450 --> 42:54.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[42:54.630 --> 42:55.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm, like, showing...
[42:55.430 --> 42:56.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm, like, doing...
[42:56.250 --> 42:57.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: You see, anyone can get into this.
[42:58.230 --> 42:58.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[42:58.530 --> 43:02.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I know, it's, uh, Windows 95 is incredibly, uh, unstable, is one way of putting it.
[43:02.730 --> 43:07.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, like, this school is really big, and they want to run the whole network, like, on, like, Windows NT and stuff.
[43:08.190 --> 43:08.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[43:08.490 --> 43:09.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know how that...
[43:09.090 --> 43:11.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you know, maybe just step back and let them do it and see what happens.
[43:11.830 --> 43:14.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: And then, when you have to pick up the pieces, explain to them what they did wrong.
[43:16.150 --> 43:16.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[43:16.930 --> 43:18.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, they'll never listen to you at this stage, I'm sure.
[43:18.990 --> 43:20.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's, uh, that's been my experience.
[43:21.050 --> 43:21.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[43:21.530 --> 43:22.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for calling.
[43:22.210 --> 43:22.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks.
[43:22.550 --> 43:22.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Take care.
[43:24.310 --> 43:25.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bernie, you're still with us.
[43:25.410 --> 43:28.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I was, uh, thinking about his, uh, comments on the government.
[43:28.490 --> 43:38.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: He's trying to regulate the electromagnetic spectrum, which, for listeners who don't know what that means, it basically means radio frequency, and when I go down in the spectrum, it's sound frequency.
[43:38.170 --> 43:41.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: When I go up in the spectrum, it's light frequencies.
[43:41.490 --> 43:49.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I guess, uh, since they regulate the whole radio spectrum at this point, uh, um, I guess they're trying to regulate the sound spectrum now.
[43:50.310 --> 43:50.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's right.
[43:50.850 --> 43:58.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: The tones used in, uh, in making, uh, telephones, uh, indicate that coins have been deposited.
[43:58.170 --> 43:59.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Those tones are audio tones.
[43:59.970 --> 44:02.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: The government is trying to regulate certain sounds now.
[44:02.170 --> 44:03.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: Certain sounds could be illegal.
[44:03.390 --> 44:07.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't see too far off in the future where they regulate certain light frequencies as well.
[44:07.870 --> 44:09.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like, well, certain colors will be banned.
[44:09.570 --> 44:12.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like, if you no longer look at the color red, it will be a banned color.
[44:12.710 --> 44:25.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, actually, there are certain laws in effect in various states where if you approach a traffic light with a strobe light, in the belief that you will set it off and make it turn green like you're an ambulance, that's illegal.
[44:25.050 --> 44:25.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: How about that?
[44:25.930 --> 44:28.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: They've already started regulating the light spectrum.
[44:28.290 --> 44:29.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, they're ready for us.
[44:30.350 --> 44:31.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: So that's the story there.
[44:32.030 --> 44:33.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I was thinking, you've been in prison for so long.
[44:33.730 --> 44:35.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: I wonder, have you even used Windows 95?
[44:36.130 --> 44:42.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was out for a few weeks on October... Friday the 13th of October last year.
[44:42.810 --> 44:43.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was released in federal custody.
[44:44.150 --> 44:46.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: So you got a chance to test it out then?
[44:46.870 --> 44:47.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: I got a chance to test it out.
[44:48.030 --> 44:50.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: I got a job with Bell Atlantic only a few days after my release.
[44:50.890 --> 44:56.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I was up in front of a workstation running a Windows 95 accessing a Windows NT server.
[44:56.490 --> 44:58.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I was not terribly impressed.
[44:58.230 --> 45:00.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'd read about it in magazines while I was in federal prison.
[45:00.570 --> 45:02.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I thought, boy, this is even worse than I read about.
[45:04.270 --> 45:06.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, needless to say, there is no Windows 96.
[45:07.030 --> 45:09.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: But we'll keep you updated on that.
[45:09.290 --> 45:10.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think that's due to come out in 1998.
[45:11.430 --> 45:12.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think that's the plan, too.
[45:13.490 --> 45:15.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, 212-279-3400.
[45:15.250 --> 45:15.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[45:15.630 --> 45:15.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're on the air.
[45:16.930 --> 45:17.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello?
[45:17.450 --> 45:17.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, go ahead.
[45:18.210 --> 45:18.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[45:18.830 --> 45:19.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: How are you doing?
[45:19.670 --> 45:19.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi.
[45:20.150 --> 45:23.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to bring up a subject that I heard a couple months ago.
[45:23.810 --> 45:27.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Remember those FBI files with the codenames?
[45:27.670 --> 45:29.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: The FBI files with the codenames.
[45:29.810 --> 45:29.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[45:30.770 --> 45:31.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Secret Service files.
[45:32.190 --> 45:32.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, the Secret Service ones.
[45:33.050 --> 45:33.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[45:33.550 --> 45:35.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I had a question on that.
[45:35.490 --> 45:35.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[45:35.830 --> 45:36.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're talking about our website?
[45:37.110 --> 45:37.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[45:37.670 --> 45:37.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[45:38.470 --> 45:41.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I was looking through the files with some of my friends.
[45:41.730 --> 45:44.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we were looking at it, you know, having a nice time and everything.
[45:44.670 --> 45:46.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we saw something quite odd.
[45:46.510 --> 45:46.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[45:46.730 --> 45:47.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[45:47.450 --> 45:49.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: We saw Frank Sinatra's name on it.
[45:49.470 --> 45:49.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[45:50.050 --> 45:52.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Frank Sinatra's name was one of the codenames given.
[45:53.290 --> 45:59.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: I imagine the reason for that is because Frank Sinatra was a friend of maybe Nixon, maybe Ford.
[45:59.950 --> 46:00.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: Who knows?
[46:00.630 --> 46:08.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but something that we found quite strange was that, like, Hillary Clinton's daughter, she wasn't given any federal protection.
[46:08.870 --> 46:14.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which, I mean, she's supposed to have some now, but when her parents are out of office, she's not supposed to get any.
[46:14.470 --> 46:14.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[46:15.270 --> 46:20.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: So how come she's the daughter of the president, she's not on it, but Frank Sinatra is?
[46:20.830 --> 46:22.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, no, that doesn't mean he's getting protection now.
[46:22.550 --> 46:27.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: That just means that that was a codename that was used for him during a particular administration.
[46:28.210 --> 46:33.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: So what we basically do is, if we get a codename, it stays on there forever, so we know what the codename was.
[46:34.670 --> 46:40.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: A lot of the information on that list is no longer being used, but we thought for historical purposes it was interesting.
[46:40.930 --> 46:53.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Apparently, either Reagan or Nixon or Ford or one of those characters met with Sinatra at some function, and Secret Service referred to Sinatra by a codename rather than by his real name.
[46:54.730 --> 46:56.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think they're doing that now.
[46:56.250 --> 46:58.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'd like to know how they come up with these names.
[46:58.230 --> 47:01.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do they have some sort of a committee meeting?
[47:01.690 --> 47:07.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: They sit around a roundtable and they say, you know, Reagan should be Spider-Man.
[47:07.310 --> 47:08.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, no, he should be Batman.
[47:09.170 --> 47:12.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: How do they decide, you know, what name they're going to use?
[47:12.850 --> 47:15.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: That would be a really interesting thing to find out.
[47:15.150 --> 47:16.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'd like to know who's responsible for picking these names.
[47:16.930 --> 47:20.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think in the presidential administrations, they used the first letter.
[47:20.610 --> 47:26.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: Didn't we find, figure out that the first letter of all the, each administration's codenames was the same?
[47:26.790 --> 47:29.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it did seem that way for the vast majority of them.
[47:29.890 --> 47:30.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: They used the same letter.
[47:31.510 --> 47:33.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: For the Reagan administration, I think they all started with R.
[47:33.950 --> 47:37.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think I had anything with Reagan, but I remember Reagan was a rawhide.
[47:37.610 --> 47:40.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: But they still have to come up with a name beyond that.
[47:41.210 --> 47:45.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that, I don't know if one person is in charge of that, if they have to come up with a majority vote.
[47:45.410 --> 47:54.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: If there's any ex-Secret Service people out there that are in a particularly friendly mood, they can always call us and share information or email us.
[47:54.570 --> 47:55.510]  We know they're listening.
[47:55.510 --> 47:56.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, we do know they're listening.
[47:56.990 --> 47:57.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: We do know that.
[47:57.690 --> 47:59.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: They've made no secret of that.
[48:00.910 --> 48:05.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, maybe some other people have found out about it as well, and they're willing to share some information.
[48:05.690 --> 48:08.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can email us, OTH at 2600.com.
[48:08.970 --> 48:09.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, Manuel?
[48:09.790 --> 48:10.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, go ahead.
[48:10.390 --> 48:12.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, I don't know if I can say this on the air, can I?
[48:12.990 --> 48:14.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: About some things I did.
[48:14.130 --> 48:15.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I don't know.
[48:15.290 --> 48:16.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: We don't know who you are.
[48:17.150 --> 48:21.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: As long as they don't involve the seven dirty words that the FCC says we can't say.
[48:23.090 --> 48:24.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I think you can probably tell us.
[48:24.990 --> 48:27.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: But keep in mind that, you know, they might know who you are.
[48:28.550 --> 48:29.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: I doubt it.
[48:29.450 --> 48:29.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[48:29.930 --> 48:37.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, I started going to this school, and what happened is that, you know, I've been attacking for about three years now.
[48:37.490 --> 48:40.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, looking for some hacker buddies, because usually they were in groups.
[48:40.670 --> 48:41.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've been attacking?
[48:41.810 --> 48:42.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, hacking.
[48:42.570 --> 48:43.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I thought you said you were attacking.
[48:43.850 --> 48:44.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, no.
[48:44.450 --> 48:45.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've been hacking.
[48:45.230 --> 48:45.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[48:45.510 --> 48:45.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[48:46.090 --> 48:48.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Which in many, many people's eyes is the same thing, but we know it's not.
[48:50.890 --> 48:54.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, when I came over here, I started checking out the school's computer systems.
[48:54.770 --> 48:54.990]  Uh-huh.
[48:55.210 --> 49:04.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: And something that got me really upset was that the teachers were getting mad at me for just looking through the systems, when these teachers didn't even know what DOS was, and that really got me angry.
[49:05.190 --> 49:10.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you know, they're very sensitive to things that they don't understand.
[49:10.090 --> 49:16.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they see you looking through, and they assume you know more than they do, and they'll find out all the secrets, and they will know what it is you're doing.
[49:17.110 --> 49:17.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: It scares them.
[49:18.470 --> 49:21.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it really did, because I've been banned from, like, every computer in school.
[49:22.150 --> 49:22.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[49:22.430 --> 49:25.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's the simplest way of dealing with the solution, just to ban you outright.
[49:26.150 --> 49:26.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[49:26.710 --> 49:27.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it was this...
[49:27.710 --> 49:30.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the thing is, I wanted to get revenge on this kid who ratted me out.
[49:30.930 --> 49:32.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't do anything bad.
[49:32.570 --> 49:36.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just put in, like, bootleg games on the computer for everyone else to play.
[49:36.270 --> 49:37.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: I did it for everyone else's pleasure.
[49:37.690 --> 49:37.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[49:38.130 --> 49:38.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know?
[49:39.230 --> 49:47.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: And teachers didn't really know or didn't really care, because the kids came in, they played games right in front of the teachers, until one teacher actually questioned where it came from.
[49:47.650 --> 49:47.850]  Uh-huh.
[49:48.850 --> 49:53.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Half the people didn't even know where it came from, but then one kid decided to snitch, and then I got in trouble.
[49:53.710 --> 49:57.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the problem is that they can't find the files, because I changed all of their names.
[49:58.030 --> 49:58.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[49:58.190 --> 49:59.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there are about a hundred different of them.
[50:00.110 --> 50:02.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: And now they want me to come and take them out one by one.
[50:02.490 --> 50:03.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: But you're still banned.
[50:03.670 --> 50:04.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[50:04.630 --> 50:05.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's hard to do.
[50:05.390 --> 50:07.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's... yeah, it's going to be a bit tricky.
[50:07.570 --> 50:08.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it is.
[50:08.150 --> 50:12.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: A lot of people seem not to realize that games can actually be good.
[50:12.090 --> 50:13.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, not all the time, obviously.
[50:13.230 --> 50:14.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: You don't want to be playing games all the time.
[50:14.770 --> 50:22.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: But to have a blanket ban on them is a very bad thing, because games show people that computers can be used in happy ways.
[50:22.950 --> 50:28.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: And also, there's ways of manipulating the games, rewriting the software, figuring out how to make something more efficient.
[50:28.890 --> 50:30.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's how you really learn things about computers.
[50:30.970 --> 50:31.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it is.
[50:31.590 --> 50:33.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I spend a lot of time on my computers.
[50:33.490 --> 50:37.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I haven't gotten web access until for about four months.
[50:38.110 --> 50:39.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Until four months from now.
[50:39.150 --> 50:40.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: I did mostly manual hacking.
[50:41.190 --> 50:44.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I learned a lot about how computers work and operating systems from that.
[50:44.990 --> 50:51.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: And ironically, I got all that from a teacher who gave me access to his computer in my old school.
[50:51.310 --> 50:52.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he encouraged me.
[50:53.190 --> 50:54.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was a little kind of weird.
[50:54.690 --> 50:54.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Huh?
[50:55.050 --> 50:56.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: That was a good teacher.
[50:56.230 --> 50:57.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Very good teacher.
[50:57.250 --> 50:59.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: He gave me... He had his own computer.
[50:59.530 --> 51:01.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he gave me access to it on my free periods.
[51:01.750 --> 51:03.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's pretty much where I learned everything.
[51:03.630 --> 51:09.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I bet you never would have done anything malicious to his computer because he was an open minded person who was trying to help you learn.
[51:09.470 --> 51:09.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Never.
[51:09.710 --> 51:13.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you see, that's what a lot of teachers don't seem to understand.
[51:13.530 --> 51:15.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a mutual trust kind of thing.
[51:15.830 --> 51:22.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I'm facing another problem on Usenet, on 2600's newsgroup.
[51:22.410 --> 51:23.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Alt.2600?
[51:23.650 --> 51:23.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[51:24.230 --> 51:24.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[51:24.590 --> 51:26.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're very loosely affiliated with that, by the way.
[51:26.830 --> 51:27.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just want to point that out.
[51:27.810 --> 51:27.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[51:28.190 --> 51:28.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[51:28.770 --> 51:30.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: It sort of has a life of its own.
[51:30.830 --> 51:35.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: I can see that because they're always posting all these Christian things on the newsgroup.
[51:35.270 --> 51:37.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, basically, it's just a free-for-all.
[51:37.890 --> 51:39.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: People post whatever they want to post.
[51:39.710 --> 51:40.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, true.
[51:40.970 --> 51:45.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there's been a spat that we're discussing hacker ethics.
[51:46.470 --> 51:49.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: When I first started hacking, I didn't know what a hacker was.
[51:49.150 --> 51:49.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was just doing it.
[51:50.230 --> 51:51.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then I started reading up on it.
[51:52.170 --> 51:55.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then I started reading up on the MIT hackers in the old days.
[51:55.990 --> 51:59.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then I was learning about all the hacker ethics and what it was and whatever and whatever.
[52:00.410 --> 52:13.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: But what I've noticed is that in the hacker community, maybe not in New York City, because I haven't encountered that in New York City, but maybe in more remote areas like way out in Long Island, there's a lot of discrimination.
[52:13.970 --> 52:15.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Discrimination in what way?
[52:15.910 --> 52:20.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: On mostly age, sex, and color.
[52:21.570 --> 52:22.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mostly sex and age.
[52:23.050 --> 52:30.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: But hacking has not become something where you're curious to learn more about computers.
[52:30.290 --> 52:33.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's become more of a competition, kind of like a power trip.
[52:34.250 --> 52:34.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[52:34.470 --> 52:44.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I mean, you know, that was inevitable with the glamorization and, you know, films and newspaper articles and things coming out about hacking.
[52:44.690 --> 52:45.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: It romanticizes it.
[52:45.910 --> 52:47.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: A lot of people want to get into it.
[52:47.070 --> 52:49.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: They want the easy road.
[52:49.370 --> 52:49.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[52:49.810 --> 52:53.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they miss out on the whole developmental process where they become a hacker.
[52:53.650 --> 52:55.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: You don't instantly turn into a hacker.
[52:55.330 --> 52:56.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: You just can't do it.
[52:56.110 --> 53:01.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: You have to go through a long process of learning and figuring things out and deciding that that's what you like to do.
[53:01.970 --> 53:10.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I would say people that aren't sharing the information or discriminating in various ways, they may consider themselves hackers, but few others do.
[53:12.010 --> 53:16.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Ironically, a couple years ago, no one, if I asked anyone what a hacker was, they wouldn't be able to answer me.
[53:16.530 --> 53:23.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: But now that I have a reputation as a notorious hacker when I've done nothing wrong, I have these little kids coming up to me saying, can you teach me how to hack?
[53:24.150 --> 53:25.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then I just look at them.
[53:25.350 --> 53:25.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[53:25.690 --> 53:29.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's really funny, but it's like hacking isn't just hacking.
[53:29.830 --> 53:33.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: There should be like some kind of a definition for it because it seems like no one knows it.
[53:33.290 --> 53:35.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, there's too many definitions for it, actually.
[53:35.450 --> 53:37.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that's part of the problem.
[53:37.750 --> 53:43.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: You really can't put it into words in most cases because there's just so many different variables.
[53:43.510 --> 53:53.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: But I think if you show somebody a sense of the hacker ethic and what it's all about, the feeling of adventure, that's something we can all share, whether we consider ourselves hackers or not.
[53:54.010 --> 54:03.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Once you see that, once you feel that going through your veins, you know that hackers are not criminals and not the people that are going around trying to crash the military and all that kind of thing.
[54:04.510 --> 54:06.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's basically learning.
[54:06.370 --> 54:07.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a whole learning experience.
[54:07.690 --> 54:12.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: The thrill you get hacking is the same thrill you get when you're learning something that you're really into.
[54:13.210 --> 54:15.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's what I think people need to understand.
[54:15.570 --> 54:15.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[54:15.990 --> 54:17.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just have one more question.
[54:17.490 --> 54:17.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[54:18.170 --> 54:21.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is this supposed to be a 2,600 meeting this week?
[54:22.490 --> 54:24.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, there is technically.
[54:24.450 --> 54:29.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the way things are right now at Citicorp, the building is in shambles.
[54:30.170 --> 54:32.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's going to be that way for the next few months.
[54:32.790 --> 54:36.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: So me, myself, I am not going to the New York meeting for a while.
[54:36.450 --> 54:39.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to be sort of voyaging around the country, visiting some of the other meetings.
[54:40.650 --> 54:44.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: If people show up there, it's probably best to meet outside or something where there's more space.
[54:44.850 --> 54:46.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because right now they have us huddled into a hallway.
[54:46.890 --> 54:51.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's kind of like, you know, rats inside, you know, some sort of a cage or something.
[54:51.730 --> 54:55.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not really conducive to civilization.
[54:56.210 --> 54:58.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: In a few months, though, it should be really kind of good.
[54:58.590 --> 54:58.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[54:59.170 --> 54:59.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right?
[54:59.630 --> 55:00.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, thank you, Emanuel.
[55:00.610 --> 55:01.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for calling.
[55:01.190 --> 55:01.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bye, Bernier.
[55:01.870 --> 55:02.210]  Bye-bye.
[55:02.690 --> 55:02.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[55:03.030 --> 55:04.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's see if we can squeeze in another call.
[55:04.590 --> 55:04.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[55:05.050 --> 55:05.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're on the air.
[55:06.690 --> 55:07.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead.
[55:07.230 --> 55:07.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Speak up.
[55:07.790 --> 55:11.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think I heard you on WUSB, Stony Brook.
[55:11.210 --> 55:12.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's quite possible.
[55:12.250 --> 55:14.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sometimes my voice emanates out of all kinds of different frequencies.
[55:16.050 --> 55:17.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess that's all they wanted to say.
[55:18.450 --> 55:19.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Boy, I'm busted.
[55:19.410 --> 55:20.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: They found me on another station.
[55:20.970 --> 55:21.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[55:21.150 --> 55:21.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[55:21.470 --> 55:21.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're on the air.
[55:22.370 --> 55:22.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[55:22.690 --> 55:23.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's a dial tone.
[55:23.530 --> 55:24.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bernie, you still there?
[55:25.170 --> 55:25.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Still there, Bernie?
[55:26.210 --> 55:26.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.
[55:26.510 --> 55:26.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[55:27.090 --> 55:29.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sometimes dial tones have adverse effects on prison phone systems.
[55:30.010 --> 55:30.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[55:30.670 --> 55:31.130]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're on the air.
[55:31.290 --> 55:31.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, wonderful.
[55:32.190 --> 55:32.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi.
[55:32.790 --> 55:34.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is Jeremy calling.
[55:34.630 --> 55:35.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi, Bernie.
[55:35.330 --> 55:35.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Are you there?
[55:36.050 --> 55:36.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Jeremy.
[55:36.830 --> 55:37.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi.
[55:37.610 --> 55:38.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thank you for your letter.
[55:38.410 --> 55:42.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm still putting together a long letter to reply to it.
[55:42.730 --> 55:43.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, wonderful.
[55:43.770 --> 55:44.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Great.
[55:44.330 --> 55:44.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[55:44.730 --> 55:44.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[55:44.990 --> 55:46.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have about two minutes.
[55:46.790 --> 55:46.790]  Yeah.
[55:46.810 --> 55:47.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[55:47.430 --> 55:48.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Did you get the radical calendar?
[55:49.150 --> 55:50.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was wondering if they got that to you.
[55:50.490 --> 55:51.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, they wouldn't let me have it.
[55:51.550 --> 55:52.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: They would not?
[55:52.130 --> 55:53.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: That was confiscated at the front gate.
[55:53.810 --> 55:54.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was figures.
[55:55.290 --> 55:56.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Radical calendar, huh?
[55:56.270 --> 55:56.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[55:56.750 --> 55:58.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: I thought you would really dig it.
[55:58.990 --> 56:06.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was going to say, well, one thing, Randy, all the world, in World War II, passwords were, the Japanese passed in field.
[56:07.210 --> 56:12.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: The Japanese were not able to pronounce L, and all the passwords were as many L's as you could get.
[56:13.570 --> 56:15.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: One of the passwords was Clark Gable.
[56:16.270 --> 56:23.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: In other words, to go through, in field, to get into the area, the compound at night, you had to say these passwords.
[56:23.490 --> 56:23.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Really?
[56:23.710 --> 56:28.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: My father has this booklet of all the passwords, and they all have L in them.
[56:29.690 --> 56:33.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bernie, have you been there for over one year?
[56:33.590 --> 56:36.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was just curious as far as the publicity thing.
[56:36.710 --> 56:41.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, the total time incarcerated as of July 12th will be one year.
[56:42.030 --> 56:42.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[56:42.270 --> 56:49.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was almost a three-month period from October through January that I was out.
[56:50.010 --> 56:57.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: But then I was reincarcerated because my federal conviction was a violation of probation for a misdemeanor charge that occurred in 93.
[56:57.610 --> 57:02.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: But in a few weeks, I'll have been incarcerated for a total of a year.
[57:02.570 --> 57:02.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[57:02.930 --> 57:04.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know, like, 30 seconds left or something.
[57:04.670 --> 57:16.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I wanted to say that if people, the listenership could write the letters, and it would be best to come from us rather than you requesting letters.
[57:16.530 --> 57:19.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Emmanuel, I had left you a message about that.
[57:19.130 --> 57:19.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know what I mean?
[57:20.430 --> 57:20.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[57:21.150 --> 57:28.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: So maybe something could be done to encourage people to write letters, and that would be great.
[57:28.710 --> 57:33.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: A letter-writing campaign would be great, but it shouldn't, obviously, come from...
[57:33.090 --> 57:41.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, what we're going to do is we're going to be looking into the options in the next couple of days, see just who's not doing their job.
[57:42.230 --> 57:48.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think by next week at this time, if it's still at this stage, we'll have a very definite plan of action as far as how to go.
[57:48.490 --> 57:52.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: For now, we're just going to make some phone calls and start putting the pressure on a little bit.
[57:52.810 --> 57:53.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for the call.
[57:53.590 --> 57:54.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're out of time.
[57:54.830 --> 57:56.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bernie, very quickly, give out your address.
[57:56.410 --> 57:57.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, yeah.
[57:57.190 --> 57:58.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anybody want to write me, I'd appreciate it.
[57:58.990 --> 58:01.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: And magazines or books, you can send them to me.
[58:01.850 --> 58:06.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: My real name is Ed Cummings, C-U-M-M-I-N-G-S.
[58:07.070 --> 58:16.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: And my prison address is Bucks, to speak as a boy, Bucks County Prison at 1730 South Easton Road.
[58:16.870 --> 58:18.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's E-A-S-T-O-N.
[58:18.810 --> 58:25.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's in Doylestown, D-O-Y-L-E-S-T-O-W-N-P-A-1-8-9-0-1.
[58:25.410 --> 58:26.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's very important.
[58:26.250 --> 58:29.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anything you send me, you can only be reading materials, first of all.
[58:29.950 --> 58:33.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: No stamps or playthings.
[58:33.690 --> 58:34.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: No saws.
[58:34.770 --> 58:38.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: But it has to say on the envelope, reading materials.
[58:38.210 --> 58:39.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Otherwise, it will be rejected.
[58:39.470 --> 58:40.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sent right back, yes.
[58:40.510 --> 58:40.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: ...magazines.
[58:40.930 --> 58:41.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'd appreciate it very much.
[58:42.410 --> 58:42.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[58:42.930 --> 58:44.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks very much for being with us tonight.
[58:44.450 --> 58:49.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: And again, if you want to write to Bernie over the internet, the address is BernieS at 2600.com.
[58:49.530 --> 58:50.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: We will forward it to him.
[58:50.950 --> 58:52.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hopefully, he won't be there too much longer.
[58:52.590 --> 58:58.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hopefully, we'll have him here in the studio and he can tell us all his adventures live on the air in person.
[58:58.990 --> 59:00.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's going to do it for us here this week.
[59:00.730 --> 59:04.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: We'll be back again with another edition of Off the Hook next Tuesday night at 8 p.m.
[59:04.310 --> 59:05.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Until then, this is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[59:05.870 --> 59:06.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Have a good night.
[59:37.430 --> 59:38.670]  From
[01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:25.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: June 4th through June 27th, on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays at 1030 p.m., WBAI Arts in the evening, presents the radio drama, The Fruits of Miss Mourning, written by Elmo Terry Morgan.
[01:01:25.500 --> 01:01:32.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's here on WBAI 99.5 FM in New York City.
[01:01:50.270 --> 01:01:51.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[01:01:51.730 --> 01:01:56.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's WBAI New York 99.5 FM.
[01:01:56.690 --> 01:01:57.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's 9-0-1 time.
[01:01:57.990 --> 01:01:58.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: One.
[01:01:59.650 --> 01:02:00.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Four.
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