Off The Hook - 1996-08-13

[00:02.460 --> 00:08.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: The National Penn Faulkner Award for debut novel seeming to have come out of nowhere.
[00:09.340 --> 00:20.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: Her second, The Shipping News, won the National Book Award, the Pulitzer Prize, and shocked observers as a story set on Newfoundland took up residence on the bestseller list.
[00:20.760 --> 00:23.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: With her brutal third novel, E.
[00:23.620 --> 00:26.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: Annie Proulx surprised reviewers once again.
[00:26.350 --> 00:29.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: This time, it was not a sweet sensation.
[00:29.490 --> 00:33.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: Find out why, Monday, August 19, at 10 p.m. as we present Accordion Crimes, Portrait of a Novel with E. Annie Proulx.
[00:39.350 --> 00:47.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's Arts in the Evening, Monday, 10 p.m., August 19, only on 99.5 FM, WBAI, New York.
[00:48.080 --> 00:53.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's American sucking need for light, the darkness banished to space, and the crazy craving for luminescence.
[00:53.860 --> 00:57.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this is... Sorry, don't mean to step on you there.
[00:57.640 --> 00:59.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is WBAI in New York.
[00:59.900 --> 01:02.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: The program coming up next is Off the Hook.
[02:28.030 --> 02:30.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: And a big welcome back to everybody to Off the Hook.
[02:30.850 --> 02:33.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've been away for a couple of weeks, but we are back now.
[02:33.050 --> 02:35.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein, along with Phiber Optik.
[02:35.790 --> 02:36.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi.
[02:36.350 --> 02:36.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: How are you doing?
[02:36.850 --> 02:37.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're back.
[02:37.390 --> 02:46.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're back, yes, with more action-packed adventures of cyberspace and the many things going on in the world of hacking and other assorted things.
[02:46.070 --> 02:51.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was over at the DEFCON conference in Las Vegas, which was a lot of fun in itself.
[02:51.650 --> 02:52.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Have you ever been to Vegas, Phiber?
[02:52.810 --> 02:54.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: I can't say I have, no.
[02:54.450 --> 02:55.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, just say yes or no.
[02:55.690 --> 02:55.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: No.
[02:56.070 --> 02:56.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, you have not been.
[02:56.810 --> 02:56.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[02:58.310 --> 03:00.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a weird place, let's just put it that way.
[03:00.630 --> 03:01.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Very weird.
[03:01.250 --> 03:09.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a strange place to have a hacker conference, because no matter what hackers do, nobody's going to notice, because it's, you know, just so full of light in the action and crime.
[03:10.130 --> 03:12.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, you know, there's crime going on, but you don't see very many cops.
[03:12.710 --> 03:14.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: You really don't see any cops at all.
[03:14.610 --> 03:18.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think that's because everybody there is a security guard of some sort or another.
[03:19.270 --> 03:20.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, really, they all are.
[03:20.550 --> 03:22.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Either you're a tourist or you work security.
[03:22.610 --> 03:25.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if you live there in Vegas, you don't do anything involving gambling.
[03:25.310 --> 03:26.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's just, it's looked down upon.
[03:27.730 --> 03:29.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it's a funny place, it really is.
[03:29.950 --> 03:33.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Last year when I was there, I was horribly sick, and I hated the place.
[03:33.390 --> 03:42.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: This year I wasn't sick, and I had a lot of fun, because when you don't take it seriously, I think that's when it's, you can enjoy yourself a lot better.
[03:42.090 --> 03:45.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Plus, I went out to the desert and did some rock climbing and things like that, and that was fun.
[03:45.830 --> 03:54.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, getting away from the whole hubbub of the city, whatever, you know, you might consider Las Vegas to have, and it was all pretty fake, you know.
[03:54.530 --> 04:00.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Everything there is pretty phony, and people aren't really all that sincere, but it can be a lot of fun.
[04:00.830 --> 04:02.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, we basically, we beat the system.
[04:02.750 --> 04:04.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is how you beat the system if you go to Vegas.
[04:05.310 --> 04:13.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: You play with nickel machines, okay, and you have the time of your life playing for nickel machines for like three hours, and you lose all your money, and in the end, you've lost $2.50.
[04:14.430 --> 04:15.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, they hate that.
[04:15.570 --> 04:18.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: They hate that when you go in there, and you just lose a little bit of money, and you're happy.
[04:18.530 --> 04:22.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Or, you go in, and you win something on a slot machine, and you walk away.
[04:22.570 --> 04:23.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, they hate that, too.
[04:23.730 --> 04:26.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: They want you to just stay and gamble mega amounts of money.
[04:26.570 --> 04:32.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, when I went back there, I went to Vegas, and I drove to California, and I went back to Vegas, because that's where my flight was out of.
[04:34.050 --> 04:35.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: You basically have nothing to do in Vegas.
[04:35.930 --> 04:39.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's nothing to do, so you have to walk around and find a way to kill time.
[04:39.230 --> 04:40.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, of course, you play slot machines.
[04:41.230 --> 04:43.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I threw a quarter into a slot machine, and I got back 30.
[04:44.270 --> 04:45.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like, right, just like that.
[04:45.390 --> 04:49.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: 30 quarters came back, and, you know, I wanted to get rid of these quarters I had in my pocket, so now I have a problem.
[04:49.670 --> 04:50.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: I have 30 more.
[04:50.690 --> 04:54.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: And for some reason, I was going around to random machines.
[04:54.590 --> 04:58.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, these poker machines, these slot machines, all different kinds.
[04:59.010 --> 05:01.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: And in most cases, this does not usually happen.
[05:01.670 --> 05:04.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: In most cases, when I put one in, I got three or more back.
[05:05.550 --> 05:11.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I was starting to, like, you know, look around, thinking that everybody was watching me, because here I was, just walking up to a random machine.
[05:11.570 --> 05:13.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: I felt like I had the force behind me.
[05:13.150 --> 05:18.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: I knew which machine was going to pay off, and I was, you know, I was just aiming for it like a bullet, collecting my money, and moving on.
[05:18.330 --> 05:21.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: I thought, for sure, they're going to grab me and throw me in the back room like they do in casino, you know.
[05:22.690 --> 05:26.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: But then, you know, I sort of had a reality check, and I said, look at yourself here.
[05:27.030 --> 05:28.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're walking around with a handful of quarters.
[05:28.350 --> 05:30.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: They don't care what you do with a handful of quarters.
[05:30.410 --> 05:34.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: They want you to be sitting at the blackjack table betting $5,000 hands.
[05:34.310 --> 05:35.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's where they make the money.
[05:35.250 --> 05:38.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: They can afford to, you know, to waste your time a little bit.
[05:40.170 --> 05:42.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, that's what goes on in a place like that.
[05:43.030 --> 05:43.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: You might have fun.
[05:43.990 --> 05:44.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: You might hate it.
[05:45.190 --> 05:46.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a weird place.
[05:46.370 --> 05:47.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, you've got a system.
[05:47.590 --> 05:48.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, I don't have a system.
[05:49.770 --> 05:50.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nobody has a system.
[05:51.010 --> 05:56.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, you might think you have a system, but that's their system kicking in, telling you that you have a system, because nobody has a system.
[05:57.190 --> 06:00.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: The only system is their system that takes your money and keeps it.
[06:00.570 --> 06:01.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's the system.
[06:01.870 --> 06:03.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: And unless you're there, you're not part of it.
[06:08.710 --> 06:12.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know, everybody likes to go out there, but it's really, really boring.
[06:12.310 --> 06:15.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's pretty much the consensus.
[06:15.710 --> 06:16.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you've got to go out at night.
[06:16.830 --> 06:17.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, yeah, of course.
[06:18.170 --> 06:18.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, how about this?
[06:18.950 --> 06:19.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: I saw a UFO.
[06:20.270 --> 06:20.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: I saw a UFO.
[06:21.230 --> 06:24.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's too bad Walter's not here, because he saw it with me, and he's a physicist.
[06:24.590 --> 06:26.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's a good person to see a UFO with.
[06:26.150 --> 06:27.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: What was unidentified about it?
[06:27.970 --> 06:32.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, here we are, standing on the roof of the Monte Carlo Hotel, which is a brand new hotel.
[06:32.890 --> 06:34.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, they build these hotels in six months.
[06:34.510 --> 06:38.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know how they do it, and I don't know if it's physically easier to build things.
[06:38.430 --> 06:41.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't see how, because it's 110 degrees in the daytime.
[06:41.870 --> 06:43.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, yeah, they build these things.
[06:43.190 --> 06:45.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're building this whole thing, the skyline of New York.
[06:45.230 --> 06:46.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: They have an Empire State Building they just built.
[06:46.970 --> 06:48.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a real Empire State Building.
[06:48.170 --> 06:52.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's not as big as ours, but it is a building that looks just like it that you can fit in.
[06:52.550 --> 06:55.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: They have the Chrysler Building, Empire State Building, they even have the Brooklyn Bridge.
[06:56.550 --> 06:58.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: That was all built in the last few months.
[06:58.250 --> 06:59.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's going to be finished by the end of the year.
[06:59.430 --> 07:03.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: But the Monte Carlo Hotel is a brand new one, and we were in that place, standing on the roof.
[07:04.110 --> 07:04.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, we got to the roof.
[07:04.950 --> 07:05.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Don't ask how.
[07:05.770 --> 07:07.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: But we managed to make it up there.
[07:08.430 --> 07:11.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're just wandering around, looking out at the city.
[07:11.770 --> 07:14.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: And then I look up at the sky, because I like to do that.
[07:14.510 --> 07:18.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I see this light moving, and it's moving much faster than any airplane would move.
[07:19.310 --> 07:22.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was moving about... not as fast as a shooting star, either.
[07:23.290 --> 07:24.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: I can't really compare it to something.
[07:24.590 --> 07:28.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: I guess it was moving as fast as, say, a plane that was very close to you would be moving.
[07:28.790 --> 07:30.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Except there was no noise.
[07:30.330 --> 07:31.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: There was no plane close to us.
[07:31.650 --> 07:32.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: There was a solid light.
[07:32.810 --> 07:35.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: It did not get any dimmer as it passed.
[07:35.990 --> 07:37.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it traversed the entire sky.
[07:38.290 --> 07:41.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I pointed to it, and I said, Walter, what in the world is that?
[07:41.830 --> 07:43.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Although I didn't use those exact words.
[07:44.250 --> 07:45.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: And he didn't know either.
[07:45.690 --> 07:47.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we followed it across the sky.
[07:47.470 --> 07:50.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: It took about maybe 15 seconds to cross the entire sky.
[07:50.430 --> 07:53.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Did it go from horizon to horizon, or did it go across the sky?
[07:53.130 --> 07:57.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we couldn't really tell, because we couldn't see the horizon, because we were on the roof, and there were things blocking our view.
[07:58.130 --> 08:04.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it went from about maybe 15 degrees off the ground on one end to about the same on the other.
[08:04.990 --> 08:06.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I would imagine it probably did.
[08:06.490 --> 08:08.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's two things it probably was, and one of them isn't a weather balloon.
[08:08.970 --> 08:09.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't say it's a weather balloon.
[08:09.890 --> 08:10.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't say that.
[08:10.710 --> 08:10.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[08:11.430 --> 08:14.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: If it went from horizon to horizon, it was probably a satellite.
[08:15.630 --> 08:15.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[08:16.090 --> 08:17.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, but it was too bright for a satellite.
[08:18.030 --> 08:18.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Way too bright.
[08:18.710 --> 08:24.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Satellites are about, you know, the magnitude of, say, I don't know, magnitude five star, usually, is what a satellite.
[08:24.950 --> 08:27.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you can only see it if you're looking at a particular part of the sky.
[08:28.090 --> 08:32.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: This thing, it was bright enough to be an airplane, but it obviously wasn't.
[08:32.450 --> 08:33.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: It could have been a supersonic.
[08:34.150 --> 08:34.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's possible.
[08:34.990 --> 08:36.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: It could have been something military.
[08:36.610 --> 08:37.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's what I think it was.
[08:37.490 --> 08:38.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think it was something military.
[08:38.690 --> 08:41.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: Somebody here thinks it might have been a poker chip.
[08:41.310 --> 08:42.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think so.
[08:44.590 --> 08:44.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: No.
[08:45.210 --> 08:46.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, yeah, we saw a UFO.
[08:46.450 --> 08:49.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: That was one of the highlights there, seeing something like that.
[08:49.730 --> 08:53.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we went out to the desert, saw lizards and climbed rocks and things like that.
[08:53.310 --> 08:54.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's always fun.
[08:54.130 --> 08:55.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know the local phone company out there?
[08:55.810 --> 08:56.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know who they are?
[08:56.970 --> 08:57.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sprint.
[08:57.410 --> 08:58.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: How did you know that?
[08:58.430 --> 08:59.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, I told you.
[09:00.570 --> 09:01.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, okay.
[09:01.230 --> 09:04.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: It used to be Centel, but apparently Centel was bought out by Sprint.
[09:04.390 --> 09:04.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[09:04.630 --> 09:09.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: So when you pick up the phone and you dial something, you dial, say, information, it's Sprint information.
[09:10.170 --> 09:13.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know if you can even get Sprint information from here, but...
[09:13.150 --> 09:13.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's weird.
[09:13.730 --> 09:16.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, so they operate the phones out there.
[09:16.190 --> 09:22.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: The phones, if you can find any real phones, because most of them are co-cuts, the real phones are Northern Telecom.
[09:22.930 --> 09:25.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know the big brown ones?
[09:26.010 --> 09:26.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sure.
[09:26.610 --> 09:27.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: That they have in Canada?
[09:27.950 --> 09:28.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've seen them in pictures.
[09:28.930 --> 09:29.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[09:29.250 --> 09:30.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, they use those out there.
[09:30.530 --> 09:39.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what's odd about them, we can't play it right now, but we do have people who have seen them, or heard them, actually.
[09:39.350 --> 09:40.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: The red box tones, they're different.
[09:41.190 --> 09:42.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: How would you describe them?
[09:42.190 --> 09:44.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, they use 2200 hertz alone.
[09:44.890 --> 09:45.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[09:45.390 --> 09:47.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Single frequency, same timing.
[09:47.530 --> 09:47.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[09:49.270 --> 09:52.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, so it's basically the same thing as the red box.
[09:52.830 --> 09:53.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[09:53.230 --> 09:54.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: They just leave out the 1700.
[09:55.110 --> 09:55.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[09:55.650 --> 10:00.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if you have a demon dialer, you will notice that those frequencies are there already.
[10:00.270 --> 10:01.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I always wonder what they were for.
[10:01.450 --> 10:09.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Somebody told me they were for Canada, which makes sense, because Canada uses the Northern Telecom phones, the exact same kind that Centel now Sprint uses.
[10:09.650 --> 10:14.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: So that was interesting, because I threw a quarter in, yes, I really did throw a quarter in, and I heard those tones.
[10:14.570 --> 10:16.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I was like, wow, this is different.
[10:16.870 --> 10:17.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Totally different system here.
[10:18.330 --> 10:21.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, yeah, the local phone company is Sprint.
[10:23.670 --> 10:26.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's just kind of strange to see Sprint phone books.
[10:26.970 --> 10:28.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, that's what they think about there.
[10:28.450 --> 10:30.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wasn't Centel partnered with GTE?
[10:30.870 --> 10:31.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, no, it was Contel.
[10:32.210 --> 10:32.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Contel, okay.
[10:33.110 --> 10:34.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, that causes a lot of confusion out there.
[10:35.050 --> 10:35.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Contel, Centel.
[10:36.150 --> 10:36.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[10:37.170 --> 10:40.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, anyway, the conference went without a hitch, I guess.
[10:40.350 --> 10:42.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was, you know, fairly interesting.
[10:42.530 --> 10:46.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: You have about 800 hackers gathered together in a hotel in Vegas.
[10:46.530 --> 10:48.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: All kinds of strange things happen.
[10:48.450 --> 10:50.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Of course, everybody was very paranoid about what we would do.
[10:50.970 --> 10:53.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, they had extra security assigned to watching us.
[10:53.710 --> 10:56.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: But nobody really did anything of note that I could find out anyway.
[10:57.290 --> 11:00.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: People claimed to have control of the hotel phone system.
[11:00.590 --> 11:03.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I don't know if that's really true.
[11:03.490 --> 11:04.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: And other things as well.
[11:05.250 --> 11:09.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, nothing I can really report that was absolutely phenomenal.
[11:10.230 --> 11:11.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, a lot of interesting things.
[11:11.410 --> 11:12.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: A lot of interesting people to meet.
[11:12.490 --> 11:13.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Things like that.
[11:13.310 --> 11:16.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Went to the Los Angeles 2600 meeting, which was fun.
[11:16.270 --> 11:16.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[11:16.630 --> 11:17.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hung out with some people there.
[11:18.070 --> 11:19.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Where's the Los Angeles one?
[11:19.510 --> 11:21.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's at the train station.
[11:21.650 --> 11:22.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Not unlike Philadelphia.
[11:23.090 --> 11:23.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hmm.
[11:23.910 --> 11:27.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, yes, they have meetings all over the place.
[11:27.450 --> 11:30.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: So far, I've been to the New York meeting in a while.
[11:30.470 --> 11:32.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was at the Philadelphia meeting in June.
[11:32.950 --> 11:34.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was at the London meeting in July.
[11:34.690 --> 11:35.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: London, England.
[11:35.730 --> 11:38.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I was at the Los Angeles meeting in August.
[11:38.650 --> 11:40.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I'll be at the Boston meeting in September.
[11:40.810 --> 11:40.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hmm.
[11:41.330 --> 11:42.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, there's a lot of meetings to go to.
[11:42.530 --> 11:43.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: You don't have to stay in New York.
[11:43.390 --> 11:45.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Although, I understand, the last meeting, guess who showed up?
[11:45.570 --> 11:45.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Who?
[11:46.050 --> 11:46.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: You'll never guess.
[11:47.870 --> 11:48.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're right.
[11:48.550 --> 11:49.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'll never guess.
[11:49.050 --> 11:49.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, you will never guess.
[11:49.910 --> 11:50.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead.
[11:50.270 --> 11:50.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Give a guess.
[11:50.710 --> 11:51.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: You'll never get it.
[11:51.470 --> 11:52.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Who showed up at the last meeting?
[11:52.710 --> 11:53.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, you will never get this.
[11:54.030 --> 11:54.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: The FBI.
[11:55.550 --> 11:56.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: I told you you'd never get it.
[11:57.070 --> 11:57.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mario Cuomo.
[11:58.190 --> 11:59.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Showed up at the last 2600 meeting.
[11:59.210 --> 11:59.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: He showed up at the meeting.
[11:59.550 --> 12:00.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's what people are telling me anyway.
[12:01.090 --> 12:01.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: He was...
[12:01.810 --> 12:03.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, he didn't come to go to the meeting.
[12:03.590 --> 12:05.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: He was in Citicorp for some reason.
[12:06.230 --> 12:08.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: And he stopped and asked, Hey, what's all this about?
[12:09.270 --> 12:10.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: And he hung out for a while.
[12:11.610 --> 12:14.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: And basically, I think he was told...
[12:14.070 --> 12:17.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: He was told that the hacker meeting was actually a computer think tank.
[12:17.770 --> 12:20.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Which isn't that far from the truth when you think about it.
[12:21.190 --> 12:25.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: But his last words upon leaving were, and I think we should follow this, Keep it up.
[12:26.070 --> 12:26.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[12:26.470 --> 12:26.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[12:27.090 --> 12:30.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, for all you people out there, Mario Cuomo wants us to continue there.
[12:30.570 --> 12:31.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I think he really would.
[12:31.430 --> 12:34.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because, you know, I've seen him in person a few times.
[12:34.650 --> 12:36.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: And he seems to be a relatively straightforward type of person.
[12:36.070 --> 12:38.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, now that he's a former governor, he can say whatever he wants.
[12:38.390 --> 12:38.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's true.
[12:38.890 --> 12:40.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Although, he did say whatever he wanted when he was governor.
[12:41.590 --> 12:43.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that might have gotten him into trouble.
[12:43.210 --> 12:44.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, I don't know.
[12:44.270 --> 12:46.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think he's somebody that would understand the spirit of hacking.
[12:46.650 --> 12:49.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Certainly more than the guy we have up there in Albany now.
[12:50.630 --> 12:51.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, never mind that.
[12:52.190 --> 12:54.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, we've got some interesting phone company things.
[12:54.530 --> 12:58.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this actually was from the New York Times yesterday.
[12:58.690 --> 12:59.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know if you saw this.
[13:00.130 --> 13:01.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's always interesting articles.
[13:01.350 --> 13:03.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: You've got to read the business section, because that's where the articles are hidden.
[13:03.690 --> 13:07.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: AT&T's cards caught in shift to deregulation.
[13:08.870 --> 13:16.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Deregulating the telephone industry may usher in lower prices and a wealth of new services, as government officials and telephone executives promise.
[13:16.970 --> 13:25.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, for people who own telephone calling cards from AT&T, this new era is starting not with a bang, but a busy signal.
[13:26.190 --> 13:27.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Isn't that elegant, pros?
[13:27.790 --> 13:29.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, well, over the last three months...
[13:29.810 --> 13:31.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, you were a part of this, Phiber.
[13:31.090 --> 13:38.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: However, thousands of cardholders from New York City to Oklahoma City have been unable to place local or toll calls using their AT&T calling cards, correct?
[13:39.050 --> 13:39.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[13:39.490 --> 13:39.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[13:39.990 --> 13:52.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: The reason the AT&T Corporation has been dissolving agreements with the regional Bell operating companies and the GTE Corporation that provided for these companies to carry some of AT&T's calls over their local networks.
[13:52.590 --> 14:03.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, if you place a call from Manhattan to Westchester County using an AT&T card, you are referred to a NYNEX operator who informs you that AT&T no longer allows its cardholders to use the NYNEX network.
[14:03.590 --> 14:04.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: That is what they told you, right?
[14:05.350 --> 14:06.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Originally, yeah.
[14:06.310 --> 14:06.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[14:06.690 --> 14:16.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: To complete this call, you must dial an 11-digit prefix, 1-800-CALL-ATT, which transfers the call from the NYNEX Corporation's wires to AT&T's wires.
[14:16.390 --> 14:17.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nice and convenient, huh?
[14:17.770 --> 14:18.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why would you want to do that?
[14:19.230 --> 14:24.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, it's only convenient if NYNEX doesn't reprogram their new co-cut-style phones to reject the number.
[14:24.810 --> 14:25.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, don't even talk to me about those phones.
[14:26.030 --> 14:26.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: I hate those phones.
[14:27.010 --> 14:29.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't want to talk about what I almost did to one of them the other day.
[14:29.430 --> 14:31.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: They look and smell just like real phones.
[14:31.750 --> 14:32.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, yeah.
[14:32.930 --> 14:34.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they even say NYNEX on the phone.
[14:34.450 --> 14:34.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, they even say NYNEX.
[14:34.770 --> 14:35.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: You really can't tell the difference.
[14:35.850 --> 14:39.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: But why would anybody want to make an AT&T call on a calling card?
[14:40.290 --> 14:41.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: A local call on AT&T.
[14:41.570 --> 14:43.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because I save all my quarters for laundry.
[14:43.970 --> 14:45.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but why not use NYNEX?
[14:45.430 --> 14:45.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Isn't it cheaper?
[14:46.750 --> 14:48.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't have a NYNEX calling card.
[14:49.690 --> 14:50.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, okay.
[14:50.590 --> 14:52.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, I mean, why don't you have a NYNEX calling card?
[14:52.350 --> 14:53.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, that's simple enough to get.
[14:53.750 --> 14:58.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because I want people who know my phone number to scan out the last four digits of the calling card.
[14:58.730 --> 14:59.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: I see.
[14:59.950 --> 15:01.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Can't you request one that doesn't have the phone number?
[15:03.130 --> 15:05.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Used to be that you could use...
[15:05.610 --> 15:07.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: AT&Ts are just a random 14-9.
[15:07.870 --> 15:10.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: See, when I was out in California, I was using my AT&T calling card.
[15:10.510 --> 15:10.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[15:11.690 --> 15:14.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because my Metro Media card no longer worked.
[15:14.490 --> 15:15.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, my 950 number?
[15:15.830 --> 15:15.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[15:16.090 --> 15:18.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: They sort of dissolved that and said, no, call the 800 number instead.
[15:18.930 --> 15:20.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: I said, okay, and the same rates?
[15:20.490 --> 15:23.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, no, it's 30 cents a minute now instead of 15 cents a minute.
[15:23.710 --> 15:25.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it's just as easy to dial.
[15:26.790 --> 15:28.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I told them where they could go.
[15:29.270 --> 15:36.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, so when I used it for a local call out there, it got routed over Pacific Bell.
[15:36.250 --> 15:36.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[15:36.790 --> 15:38.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I guess the agreement still holds there.
[15:38.730 --> 15:42.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: But if I had been in your shoes, they would have told me that I could only use AT&T.
[15:42.550 --> 15:45.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'd have to call 1-800-CALL-ATT to make that call.
[15:45.690 --> 15:50.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, so the only reason you would use it for a local call is because you don't have a local calling card.
[15:50.410 --> 15:53.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't have a local calling card, and I don't use quarters for phone calls.
[15:53.490 --> 15:54.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: The surcharge is more.
[15:55.670 --> 15:56.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe it is.
[15:56.110 --> 15:58.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think it's like 75 cents or something for AT&T.
[15:58.310 --> 15:59.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you should know.
[15:59.170 --> 16:00.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: You make all these AT&T calls.
[16:00.810 --> 16:02.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, but I never really pay attention.
[16:02.630 --> 16:03.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Just write the check.
[16:03.750 --> 16:04.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, look at how much it's for.
[16:05.310 --> 16:08.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, well, now they're implementing these new things.
[16:11.170 --> 16:11.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's see.
[16:12.290 --> 16:15.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: The FCC says there's going to be a lot of confusion over things like this.
[16:15.950 --> 16:17.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they certainly got that right.
[16:17.950 --> 16:34.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: In the days after AT&T's mutual card-honoring agreement with NYNEX expired in April, AT&T even ran commercials implying that NYNEX was blocking the calls of AT&T cardholders, according to Gary Scarano, the product director of NYNEX's calling card division.
[16:34.610 --> 16:41.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: That prompted NYNEX to file a complaint with the FCC in which it coined a new word to describe AT&T's action, jamming.
[16:42.270 --> 16:56.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, Mr. Scarano said that jamming was a variation on slamming, which is the industry's slang for the illegal practice in which a long-distance carrier switches a customer's service without his knowledge or consent.
[16:56.410 --> 17:02.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Jamming means they block the call, then blame us, and then blur the line about who was carrying the call.
[17:04.210 --> 17:06.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: They were both guilty of that.
[17:07.290 --> 17:10.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Seems like they're both trying to pull the wool over our eyes in some regard.
[17:10.250 --> 17:12.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: For its part, AT&T denied that it misled customers.
[17:12.710 --> 17:17.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: At no time were we trying to imply, or did we imply, that the Baby Bells made the decision.
[17:18.890 --> 17:27.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ms. Tilly Statmore, folkswoman for AT&T, said AT&T is advertising merely educated customers about the benefits of the access code.
[17:28.250 --> 17:33.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Namely, that the cardholder's call would travel exclusively on AT&T's reliable network.
[17:34.670 --> 17:42.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: This reduces the danger of a call being routed to another long-distance carrier, which could charge higher rates without the caller's knowledge.
[17:43.090 --> 17:49.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ms. Statmore said this situation often occurred when an AT&T cardholder made a call from a payphone leased by another long-distance carrier.
[17:49.610 --> 17:50.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it's easy to tell that, though.
[17:51.110 --> 17:52.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, you don't hear the...
[17:52.210 --> 18:02.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: You hear, like, a fifth-generation recording of the fading dial tone thing and some strange company name, if you hear a name at all, which sort of alerts you that this is probably going to cost a lot.
[18:04.270 --> 18:11.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: So AT&T's policies provoke testy responses from the Baby Bells because they're basically dissolving agreements all over the country.
[18:11.150 --> 18:18.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: They've done it already with Bell Atlantic, GTE, Ameritech, like, last Friday, SBC, formerly Southwestern Bell.
[18:18.710 --> 18:18.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[18:19.630 --> 18:26.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: And AT&T plans to cancel its agreement with Bell South, and it expects to complete the process with Pacific Telesis early next year.
[18:27.730 --> 18:34.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ameritech, which serves five states in the Great Lakes region, has told its customers that its card was easier to use than AT&T's.
[18:34.690 --> 18:40.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: To place a local, tall, or long-distance call with Ameritech's card, one has only to dial zero plus the number.
[18:40.710 --> 18:42.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, not that 11-digit prefix.
[18:42.330 --> 18:42.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's the other thing.
[18:43.070 --> 18:43.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's a flip side to all this.
[18:44.130 --> 18:46.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: The local companies can now offer long-distance.
[18:47.210 --> 18:47.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[18:47.870 --> 18:49.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Are you able to make long-distance calls?
[18:49.290 --> 18:51.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you don't have a NYNEX card, so you'd be the last person to know.
[18:51.890 --> 18:55.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, according to your letter here, you are.
[18:55.190 --> 18:59.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, well, that letter is something we're going to get to in a second, but NYNEX has added a twist.
[19:00.710 --> 19:04.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: The company recently came up with its own 11-digit access code.
[19:05.270 --> 19:11.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, a NYNEX cardholder can either dial zero plus the number or 1-800-54-NYNEX.
[19:12.130 --> 19:21.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: During the access code, dialing the access code ensures that a cardholder's long-distance call will be carried over the Sprint Corporation's network rather than AT&T's.
[19:21.610 --> 19:25.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, they just throw this into the article here, but what does Sprint have to do with all this?
[19:25.850 --> 19:27.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: It just suddenly brought Sprint into it.
[19:27.250 --> 19:27.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[19:43.230 --> 19:51.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like AT&T, NYNEX has been trying to reassure cardholders who fear that their longestest calls might be routed to an unauthorized carrier.
[19:52.230 --> 19:56.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, you've got some literature there on the card 54 system.
[19:56.390 --> 20:02.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it seems that there's a whole 5-4 conspiracy between NYNEX and Bell Atlantic.
[20:02.210 --> 20:02.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[20:02.650 --> 20:07.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Two services that have the numbers 5-4 in them that have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.
[20:07.910 --> 20:17.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the 1-800-54-NYNEX is, as you say, it allows NYNEX calling cardholders to place long-distance calls over Sprint and enjoy 50% off.
[20:18.510 --> 20:24.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the service in Bell Atlantic has nothing to do with that whatsoever, but it's called Call 54.
[20:24.670 --> 20:30.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: And Call 54 is their service mark for the new automated reverse directory service.
[20:31.690 --> 20:40.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the phone number is 555-5454 in 201 and 908 and soon to be in 609.
[20:41.690 --> 20:44.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Which, uh, was rather, uh, rather strange.
[20:44.810 --> 20:48.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that they would both decide that they want to use the numbers 54.
[20:48.050 --> 20:49.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't quite see the significance.
[20:59.750 --> 21:00.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, thanks very much for 5-4.
[21:00.970 --> 21:02.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was trying to get somebody on the phone.
[21:02.550 --> 21:05.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Could you maybe just talk about this a little bit more while I try to get them because it's important.
[21:05.930 --> 21:06.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thank you.
[21:06.310 --> 21:06.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[21:07.310 --> 21:08.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, let's see.
[21:10.290 --> 21:11.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Call 54.
[21:11.650 --> 21:15.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, they have instructions on how to exclude yourself from this new service.
[21:15.950 --> 21:40.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, it's basically an automated reverse directory and it's accessed by dialing 555-5454 and enables non-cellular callers in those areas, those areas being 201-908 and soon 609, to, uh, enter any Bell Atlantic, New Jersey published telephone number and receive the associated name and address as it appears in the Bell Atlantic,
[21:41.070 --> 21:42.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: New Jersey telephone directory.
[21:43.330 --> 21:46.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, of course, non-published listings are not provided.
[21:47.270 --> 21:50.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, they have instructions on how to exclude your name and address.
[21:51.390 --> 21:57.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, if you are in New Jersey, you might want to take heed and call 800-282-6002.
[21:59.270 --> 22:00.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, let's see.
[22:05.630 --> 22:06.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, uh, sorry.
[22:06.990 --> 22:11.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, well, we got beat by somebody that, that, that was, uh, supposed to be our guest this week.
[22:11.810 --> 22:12.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ah.
[22:12.070 --> 22:14.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, he wasn't in when I called back.
[22:15.850 --> 22:18.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, uh, I gave a number he's probably going to call back.
[22:18.910 --> 22:19.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[22:19.870 --> 22:23.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I have a whole big story about that, too, but I don't want to interrupt you.
[22:23.210 --> 22:25.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, no, I was just, uh, well, what do you know?
[22:27.810 --> 22:30.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it's the same number, and now I got to call again.
[22:30.930 --> 22:31.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Actually, no, it's a different number.
[22:32.090 --> 22:32.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a different number?
[22:32.610 --> 22:32.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[22:33.530 --> 22:38.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, so, I, since you were in the midst of that, I was...
[22:39.010 --> 22:40.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why don't you continue with what you were saying?
[22:41.310 --> 22:42.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Or we may never get this guest.
[22:43.110 --> 22:45.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, gosh, well, I'm kind of stretching this one.
[22:45.770 --> 22:54.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Unless you want to try to figure out how to use the phone system, you can, you're welcome to try that, but, uh, I think you might have more trouble with that, because it involves hitting hold buttons and, and, and great numbers and things like that.
[22:54.770 --> 22:55.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, uh...
[22:55.350 --> 22:57.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, do we want to say who our surprise mystery guest is here?
[22:57.950 --> 22:59.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, no, because we don't have him yet.
[22:59.330 --> 22:59.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, okay.
[22:59.690 --> 23:00.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: But you know what?
[23:00.190 --> 23:06.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'll give you this story here that came out over the net, and, uh, this has to do with Pepsi Points.
[23:06.570 --> 23:07.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Have you heard about Pepsi Points?
[23:07.410 --> 23:08.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you knew this was going to happen at some point.
[23:08.790 --> 23:09.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Pepsi Points?
[23:09.410 --> 23:09.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[23:09.970 --> 23:10.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that like Camel Cash?
[23:11.130 --> 23:12.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, yeah, it's very much like Camel Cash.
[23:12.710 --> 23:12.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[23:13.170 --> 23:19.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, it's basically they, they came out with this thing a few months ago where you could collect bottle caps or, or something.
[23:20.310 --> 23:21.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: I remember this question.
[23:21.210 --> 23:24.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, well, you have, you have some fun with that, I'm going to get our guest on the phone.
[23:25.110 --> 23:29.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: This says that, um, this came over Associated Press from, uh, Seattle.
[23:29.890 --> 23:36.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, someone by the name of, uh, John Leonard collected his Pepsi Points and now he wants his prize, a fighter jet.
[23:36.710 --> 23:37.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he's not kidding.
[23:38.250 --> 23:42.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: The 21-year-old business student sued, uh, PepsiCo, Inc.
[23:42.330 --> 23:49.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: on Tuesday demanding that the soft drink maker give him a Harrier fighter jet like the one pictured in a Pepsi Stuff TV commercial.
[23:50.350 --> 23:54.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm simply trying to take Pepsi up on an offer it made to the public, Leonard said.
[23:55.030 --> 24:01.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: Pepsi maintains the commercial was a spoof and says it has a right to use the humor in its advertising.
[24:01.970 --> 24:06.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: If we have to put disclaimers on spots that are obviously farces, where does it end?
[24:06.250 --> 24:08.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Pepsi spokesman John Harris said.
[24:08.830 --> 24:20.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Leonard's lawsuit filed in Dade County, Florida, Circuit Court accuses Pepsi of breach of contract, fraud, deceptive and unfair trade practices and misleading advertising.
[24:20.870 --> 24:33.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: In October, Leonard, a student at Shoreline Community College saw a commercial about the Pepsi Stuff promotion in which customers who had racked up points by drinking Pepsi beverages could claim a variety of prizes.
[24:34.270 --> 24:38.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Those who finish a 12-pack of 12-ounce cans, for example, earn 5 points.
[24:38.790 --> 24:47.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: As a joke, the company also offered the $70 million fighter jet for, drumroll please, 7 million points.
[24:47.850 --> 25:01.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: That means Leonard would have had to drink 16,800,000 cans of Pepsi to earn the Harrier, except during August when all point values double, and he would have had to finish only 8,400,000 cans.
[25:02.630 --> 25:03.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: What do you think about that?
[25:03.970 --> 25:05.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, that's pretty insane.
[25:05.850 --> 25:09.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: I figured this would happen with somebody actually collecting cans.
[25:09.790 --> 25:09.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[25:10.070 --> 25:11.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: This guy actually wrote a check, though.
[25:11.490 --> 25:13.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, it's...
[25:13.030 --> 25:13.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, really?
[25:13.490 --> 25:13.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, yeah.
[25:14.630 --> 25:15.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's mentioned in there.
[25:15.790 --> 25:16.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wrote a check, huh?
[25:16.830 --> 25:18.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: He actually bought his points.
[25:18.890 --> 25:19.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[25:19.170 --> 25:28.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: He wrote a check for $700,008.50 for the remaining 6,999,985 points that he needed.
[25:28.450 --> 25:35.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: I figured somebody going around collecting cans for a year or so would be able to do this, especially with the double point thing.
[25:35.630 --> 25:39.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I was hoping to see some poor homeless person wind up with a fighter jet.
[25:40.670 --> 25:45.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: That could definitely change things economically in all kinds of other ways.
[25:45.370 --> 25:46.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, those Harriers are really nice.
[25:46.650 --> 25:48.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: They have a vertical takeoff and landing.
[25:48.230 --> 25:48.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can park them anywhere.
[25:49.050 --> 25:49.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, don't I know it?
[25:49.410 --> 25:50.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it's convenient.
[25:50.930 --> 25:52.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can put it in your driveway.
[25:52.410 --> 25:52.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[25:53.270 --> 25:53.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Great way to commute.
[25:54.750 --> 25:57.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, on to more serious things now.
[25:57.850 --> 25:59.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: We have not heard from Bernie S.
[25:59.130 --> 26:01.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: for a while and there's a reason for that.
[26:02.170 --> 26:03.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we haven't been around for a while.
[26:03.950 --> 26:04.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's one thing.
[26:04.450 --> 26:13.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: But also, there's been even more bizarre developments with his case on the phone with us now is Rob Bernstein who is a reporter.
[26:14.710 --> 26:15.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-oh.
[26:15.830 --> 26:16.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Rob, are you there?
[26:16.650 --> 26:17.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I'm here.
[26:17.290 --> 26:18.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, we're getting some, uh...
[26:18.930 --> 26:22.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, we're getting some bad noise on that phone line.
[26:22.290 --> 26:22.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[26:23.330 --> 26:28.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: What we're going to do is we're going to call you back again and hopefully get a little bit of a better connection.
[26:29.110 --> 26:29.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, sorry about that.
[26:29.830 --> 26:30.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: We will call you right back.
[26:38.750 --> 26:39.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: You asked about that.
[26:39.670 --> 26:40.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, well.
[26:40.110 --> 26:41.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, no, here's another story for you.
[26:41.250 --> 26:41.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[26:42.070 --> 26:43.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a good thing I walk in here and hear all these backup stories.
[26:44.630 --> 26:45.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: This just in?
[26:45.390 --> 26:45.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[26:45.750 --> 26:46.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's try calling Rob again.
[26:47.470 --> 26:50.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases?
[26:50.790 --> 26:52.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: You sure this is the right story?
[26:54.990 --> 26:55.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, okay.
[26:56.210 --> 27:00.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, it could be the end of the car chase as we know it.
[27:00.230 --> 27:05.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: With the automotive equivalent of a stun gun, science fiction is coming to the aid of law enforcement.
[27:05.190 --> 27:15.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: A high-powered electrical device under development at the Pentagon's Army Research Laboratory in Adelphi, Maryland is to be tested by police and border patrol agencies.
[27:16.230 --> 27:16.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: You finished yet?
[27:17.210 --> 27:17.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, no.
[27:17.870 --> 27:19.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, this could be in use by next year.
[27:21.070 --> 27:21.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[27:21.710 --> 27:22.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Should I, uh...
[27:22.270 --> 27:25.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, maybe you should fill in the gap a little bit just so people don't, uh...
[27:25.370 --> 27:31.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, it says that this car stopper as, uh, they're nicknaming it works by focusing an intense electromagnetic charge.
[27:32.010 --> 27:32.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hey, it's the Herf gun.
[27:33.070 --> 27:33.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, yeah.
[27:33.730 --> 27:35.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, when you short out the controls.
[27:35.190 --> 27:41.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: On, uh, on the electrical systems that manage most modern engines, disabling them and paralyzing the car.
[27:42.410 --> 27:45.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, in the, in the jargon...
[27:45.470 --> 27:46.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, they have a new name for it.
[27:46.770 --> 27:52.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: In the jargon of its inventors, the 150 kilovolt charge is a NEMP.
[27:52.650 --> 27:53.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: N-E-M-P.
[27:54.050 --> 27:54.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: NEMP.
[27:54.670 --> 27:57.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or, Non-Nuclear Electromagnetic Pulse.
[27:57.970 --> 28:01.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it says contractors are bidding to produce a police version.
[28:01.970 --> 28:02.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: What do you think of that?
[28:02.970 --> 28:09.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, I think it's going to change, uh, change every, every aspect of, um, of, of car chases as we know it.
[28:09.970 --> 28:14.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, what if a terrorist got his hands on one of these things and, uh, aimed it at a passenger bus?
[28:14.670 --> 28:15.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[28:15.490 --> 28:19.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, and, uh, NEMPT, we'll call it the verb, NEMPT the bus.
[28:19.270 --> 28:20.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: How do you spell that?
[28:20.390 --> 28:21.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, N-E-M-P.
[28:21.770 --> 28:22.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: N-E-M-P.
[28:22.710 --> 28:23.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, NEMPT.
[28:23.370 --> 28:24.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, and that stands for what?
[28:24.750 --> 28:27.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, Non-Nuclear Electromagnetic Pulse.
[28:28.270 --> 28:28.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: NEMP.
[28:28.670 --> 28:29.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, Non-Nuclear.
[28:29.910 --> 28:31.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: They, they, they're sure about that?
[28:31.330 --> 28:32.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's what it says.
[28:33.130 --> 28:33.610]  All right.
[28:34.470 --> 28:36.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: 150 kilovolts coming at you.
[28:36.450 --> 28:40.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, that's, uh, that's something about how, I mean, how focused is the beam?
[28:40.250 --> 28:43.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Are they going to stop all cars when they're chasing somebody, or, you know?
[28:43.650 --> 28:48.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, well, it says, uh, it focuses an intense electromagnetic charge.
[28:48.570 --> 28:50.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: They don't say, uh, how narrow the beam is.
[28:50.650 --> 28:52.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can have a lot of fun if you've got a hold of one of these.
[28:52.130 --> 28:55.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: It just says that the, the directed beams are very precise.
[28:56.250 --> 28:56.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[28:57.810 --> 29:02.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if you were, like, in an airplane or something, you could, you could really cause some turmoil.
[29:02.390 --> 29:04.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, yeah, well, they, they point out some of the dangers here.
[29:04.990 --> 29:17.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: It says that the pulse is powerful enough to disable an engine at any reasonable range, and it would also be able to disrupt communications, damage television and radio sets, and disable computers, and even stop hard pacemakers.
[29:17.470 --> 29:18.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: There you go.
[29:19.410 --> 29:19.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Unbelievable.
[29:22.130 --> 29:25.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: And things that, I guess, you know, you have to really be clever to think of.
[29:25.810 --> 29:25.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[29:26.530 --> 29:38.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, speaking of which, you know, when, when I was, when I was traveling around, uh, it was, it was ridiculous, the, um, the, the airport security that didn't exist.
[29:39.090 --> 29:39.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[29:39.330 --> 29:45.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: In places like Las Vegas, you know, there's, there's like, there might as well not be a metal detector there because they're just so lax, you know.
[29:46.250 --> 29:48.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, my beeper always sets off metal detector.
[29:48.830 --> 29:49.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Does that make sense?
[29:49.570 --> 29:49.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sure.
[29:49.930 --> 29:52.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, so how come it didn't set off metal detector in Las Vegas?
[29:52.810 --> 29:53.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: It never did.
[29:54.110 --> 29:54.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[29:54.510 --> 29:55.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Back and forth, yeah.
[29:55.790 --> 29:58.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, there could be all kinds of things hidden inside this.
[29:58.230 --> 30:05.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: And when I was in New York, at least, they asked me to turn it on and off, you know, which doesn't really prove a whole lot except that they are aware that it's a beeper.
[30:05.970 --> 30:09.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: But there, you know, change has sometimes set off metal detectors.
[30:09.850 --> 30:10.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Keys.
[30:10.350 --> 30:11.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: None of that did over there.
[30:12.070 --> 30:18.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you gotta figure if the metal detectors actually worked in Las Vegas, how would the mobsters bring their weaponry in?
[30:18.090 --> 30:19.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: I guess they, they have to be more considerate of that.
[30:20.050 --> 30:22.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: But the other thing was, they didn't check to see if I had a ticket.
[30:22.650 --> 30:24.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was able to walk all the way to the gate without a ticket.
[30:25.050 --> 30:26.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, no problem whatsoever.
[30:26.610 --> 30:28.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Were you able to walk right out on the tarmac?
[30:28.250 --> 30:29.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: I didn't try that.
[30:29.450 --> 30:29.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[30:29.730 --> 30:30.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: I didn't even have a reason to.
[30:31.490 --> 30:36.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it was, you realize, you know, everyone's talking about airport security and how important it is.
[30:37.050 --> 30:47.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I think we should be realistic and either just tell people, hey, there is no airport security and people can pretty much do what they want or we should, you know, start implementing real security.
[30:47.310 --> 30:51.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: But let's not pretend that we have security when we don't because it's, it's kind of, it's kind of silly.
[30:52.130 --> 30:54.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, those metal detectors, do they detect gunpowder?
[30:56.030 --> 30:56.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Gunpowder?
[30:56.410 --> 30:57.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, that's not metallic.
[30:57.410 --> 30:57.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, I didn't think so.
[30:58.070 --> 31:02.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, now, if you strap dynamite to yourself and walk through one of those things, it wouldn't go off, would it?
[31:03.170 --> 31:07.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, unless there's some metal foil somewhere, but ordinarily, no, not at all.
[31:07.470 --> 31:14.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, if you want to blow up a plane, you have to go yourself too, but you have to strap all this dynamite to yourself, walk onto the plane and you're on.
[31:14.970 --> 31:15.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, that's it.
[31:16.410 --> 31:17.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nobody's ever going to suspect a thing.
[31:20.510 --> 31:21.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: But you can only do it once.
[31:21.770 --> 31:22.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, that's true.
[31:23.010 --> 31:32.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Unless, unless you forget something and you somehow manage to coyly leave all your dynamite on the plane and run out again to get whatever it is you forgot and nobody notices.
[31:32.330 --> 31:35.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know, you could dress as a construction worker and say that they're flares.
[31:35.290 --> 31:38.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, that's what really concerns me, all the people that have access to planes, you know.
[31:50.510 --> 31:56.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: some food or something like that and it was just sitting there until somebody brought it onto a plane and then it was triggered by maybe altitude or something.
[31:57.070 --> 31:57.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know.
[31:58.130 --> 32:03.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm still suspicious of the possibility that National Guard conspiracy...
[32:03.330 --> 32:03.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: What?
[32:03.870 --> 32:04.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: You mean the missile?
[32:04.750 --> 32:08.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: That a helicopter from National Guard might accidentally shut off a missile.
[32:08.890 --> 32:10.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't you think they would have figured it out by now, though?
[32:10.690 --> 32:11.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, I think they know that.
[32:11.890 --> 32:13.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's why they haven't publicly announced it.
[32:13.750 --> 32:14.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: So you think there's a whole big conspiracy?
[32:14.950 --> 32:18.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think they're not a conspiracy but a cover-up that there was an accident.
[32:18.130 --> 32:20.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: But so many people would have to know that and cover it up.
[32:20.870 --> 32:21.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: You see?
[32:21.710 --> 32:24.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, they're actively looking for information.
[32:24.810 --> 32:26.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, they're making it seem that way.
[32:26.970 --> 32:32.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: What, do you think they all huddle together before the news conference and say, okay, make sure you don't talk about this, you know, otherwise they'll catch on?
[32:32.110 --> 32:36.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I think that the people that need to know what happened know what happened and those that don't, don't.
[32:37.090 --> 32:41.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I think we're pretty much the ones that do and we should know and hopefully we will.
[32:42.250 --> 32:50.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: But anyway, it's important that we realize that people talk about security and it's not really as secure as you might think.
[32:51.170 --> 32:51.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, definitely not.
[32:52.210 --> 32:52.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[32:52.730 --> 33:02.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: And whether that means that we're at more danger, I don't know because it seems to me that, you know, human nature sort of moves us away from self-destructive things most times.
[33:03.110 --> 33:04.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Obviously not all times.
[33:04.250 --> 33:07.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I think to a much greater degree than we give it credit for.
[33:07.710 --> 33:10.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, just as a tip for all the listeners.
[33:11.750 --> 33:17.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: This was told to me from a reliable source and this person said if you...
[33:17.810 --> 33:20.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: This does not leave this station.
[33:20.290 --> 33:21.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: it does not leave the station.
[33:21.330 --> 33:22.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: By listening, you can't tell anybody.
[33:22.650 --> 33:24.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this is not an endorsement.
[33:24.350 --> 33:24.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[33:24.750 --> 33:24.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[33:25.130 --> 33:31.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't represent this company in any way, shape, or form, but I was told that the best airline to fly is United.
[33:31.830 --> 33:32.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[33:32.630 --> 33:34.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a nice United T-shirt you have on them, by the way.
[33:34.590 --> 33:36.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, it is not.
[33:36.650 --> 33:37.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm just kidding.
[33:37.250 --> 33:41.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the reason for that, just to give you a hint, is that if I told you why, I'd have to kill you.
[33:42.490 --> 33:42.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hmm.
[33:42.950 --> 33:43.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know why.
[33:43.830 --> 33:44.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, I think I know why.
[33:44.810 --> 33:45.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[33:45.110 --> 33:46.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Obviously, I'm not allowed to say.
[33:46.450 --> 33:46.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[33:47.070 --> 33:50.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: But if you watch the news, you'll find out.
[33:50.750 --> 33:51.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[33:51.230 --> 33:51.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because you see it.
[33:52.150 --> 33:52.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, do you?
[33:52.610 --> 33:53.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: You see it in certain areas.
[33:53.730 --> 33:54.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[33:54.490 --> 33:54.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[33:55.090 --> 33:56.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I was told this is a reliable source.
[33:56.970 --> 33:57.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe one of our listeners can guess.
[33:58.090 --> 33:59.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: But no, I've heard that backed up as well.
[33:59.430 --> 33:59.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[33:59.770 --> 34:00.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: That it's the safest.
[34:01.130 --> 34:04.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: But only if you subscribe to that train of thought that it's safest because of that reason.
[34:05.530 --> 34:10.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I guess, I mean, just like security, you can't say 100%, but if you had to make a choice...
[34:10.890 --> 34:11.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: I guess.
[34:11.870 --> 34:17.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, you could say LL is the safest for that reason too because you have to go through the third degree to get on a plane.
[34:17.330 --> 34:19.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: You could say Qantas is the safest because they've never crashed.
[34:19.690 --> 34:25.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I don't know if you could really say LL is the safest because the Israeli government does not negotiate with terrorists.
[34:25.950 --> 34:30.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: So if you're a hostage on a plane that's been taken over by terrorists, they're going to say, okay, blow them up.
[34:30.090 --> 34:31.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're not going to negotiate.
[34:31.590 --> 34:31.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[34:32.830 --> 34:37.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, okay, let's continue on with our show.
[34:37.730 --> 34:39.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you know, I can't believe this.
[34:39.990 --> 34:41.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Somehow we lost our guest.
[34:41.510 --> 34:41.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[34:41.870 --> 34:42.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: How did we lose our guest?
[34:42.650 --> 34:43.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: This makes no sense whatsoever.
[34:44.210 --> 34:47.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: He was on the phone there unless some idiot picked up the phone in another studio.
[34:49.150 --> 34:49.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[34:49.910 --> 34:52.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Can you continue on with something while I call him yet again?
[34:52.550 --> 34:52.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, boy.
[34:52.830 --> 34:53.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, let's see.
[34:54.470 --> 34:55.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm really sorry about this.
[34:55.830 --> 34:57.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, the global toll-free numbers.
[34:59.890 --> 35:03.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're supposed to be with the endorsement of the United Nations.
[35:03.050 --> 35:16.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're supposed to have some sort of, I guess, I don't know if you could really call it standardization, but at least the way that they're going to allocate global toll-free numbers is going to be done, I think, through Geneva.
[35:18.230 --> 35:22.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it says, AT&T, and this is from a, is this New York Times?
[35:22.850 --> 35:24.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it's a Times article.
[35:24.430 --> 35:32.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it says, on March 1st, AT&T and other carriers began assigning new toll-free numbers with an 888 prefix.
[35:32.370 --> 35:36.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm sure lots of the listeners probably caught commercials on TV already
[35:42.490 --> 35:45.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: 888 is supposed to be the same thing like an 800 number.
[35:45.290 --> 35:53.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: So if anybody was confused by what that was, it's meant to be the new toll-free area code, which we've mentioned in previous shows.
[35:54.170 --> 35:59.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, of course, they made it because they were running out of prefixes in 800 itself.
[36:00.410 --> 36:06.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it says, I think this will generate increased demand for international toll-free numbers, said Susan G.
[36:07.190 --> 36:14.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Murbach, the president of Belgicom, North America, a unit of Belgium's state telephone service.
[36:15.090 --> 36:20.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Toll-free service has grown into a vast and lucrative business in the United States since it started in 1967.
[36:22.150 --> 36:28.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: And AT&T estimates that 800 numbers account for 40% of the traffic on its network or 80 million calls a day.
[36:29.110 --> 36:34.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: The telephone companies collect about $10 billion in revenue from this business every year.
[36:34.790 --> 36:36.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, you can stop reading now.
[36:36.470 --> 36:36.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[36:36.930 --> 36:37.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry about that.
[36:38.010 --> 36:42.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know what's weird is that Rob was on the line and he heard us saying that he was disconnected.
[36:42.370 --> 36:42.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[36:42.710 --> 36:46.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: That goes to show how totally messed up our phone system is here.
[36:46.310 --> 36:47.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: But Rob Bernstein, are you there now?
[36:47.870 --> 36:48.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm here.
[36:48.490 --> 36:49.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, great.
[36:49.050 --> 36:50.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nice crystal clear connection.
[36:50.610 --> 36:51.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're sorry about this.
[36:51.370 --> 36:52.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nothing else is going to happen.
[36:52.910 --> 36:54.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, now you had a bizarre...
[36:54.510 --> 37:02.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: We haven't talked about this at all yet, but you had sort of a bizarre instance sort of welcoming you to the world of what's going on with Bernie S.
[37:02.430 --> 37:02.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sure.
[37:02.990 --> 37:04.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: In your own words, tell us what happened.
[37:05.210 --> 37:15.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't know if your listeners know or not, but I work for a magazine and we're doing a story on Bernie that we actually picked up off the net, I believe off of your site.
[37:15.770 --> 37:21.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so we contacted him for this piece and I guess Bernie S.
[37:21.930 --> 37:27.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: and I have been speaking for the last month now to develop the story which will actually be out real soon.
[37:29.370 --> 37:35.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And at some point nearing the end of the story, I wanted to send out a version of it to Bernie S.
[37:35.790 --> 37:40.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: to sort of fact check which we often do when we're completing a story.
[37:41.370 --> 37:53.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I had known at the time, I think the date was actually the 23rd of last month, just before deadline that he was working on a chain gang or something to that effect at the Heritage Conservancy.
[37:53.950 --> 37:55.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: But chain gangs still exist in this country.
[37:55.810 --> 37:56.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess they do.
[37:56.730 --> 37:57.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess they do.
[37:57.710 --> 37:59.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I know he wasn't breaking rocks.
[37:59.890 --> 38:00.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think he was pulling weeds.
[38:01.410 --> 38:03.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: But nonetheless, a chain gang.
[38:03.670 --> 38:11.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted to know if I could fax him a document and didn't quite know the protocols for the prison.
[38:12.350 --> 38:17.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess he was going to go check and see if it was possible to send it there.
[38:19.030 --> 38:23.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, two days went by and I did not hear from Bernie S.
[38:23.230 --> 38:27.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I airborne expressed a copy of the story to him in prison and I faxed one.
[38:28.150 --> 38:30.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: I went ahead and found out the fax number.
[38:30.590 --> 38:31.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't too difficult.
[38:31.730 --> 38:33.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: And sent a copy of it.
[38:33.350 --> 38:35.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess that got him into a little bit of trouble.
[38:36.690 --> 38:48.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess the actual law is a community service rule the prison has and it says you are absolutely prohibited from meeting friends or relatives on the work site.
[38:48.910 --> 38:53.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: You will not use the telephone at the work site to contact friends or family.
[38:54.190 --> 38:57.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: So obviously what I did doesn't follow with that rule.
[38:58.490 --> 39:00.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: But they slapped him with it anyway.
[39:00.410 --> 39:01.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: I misconduct won.
[39:01.730 --> 39:10.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you sound guilty of it I don't know how familiar people are with the case but Bernie right now is serving God I guess a sentence between 6 and 24 months.
[39:11.330 --> 39:16.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: So at any time I guess he was supposed to receive a parole sentence at the 4th month.
[39:16.490 --> 39:20.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: But for some strange circumstances I guess the parole office said they were having computer problems.
[39:21.230 --> 39:25.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't actually get that parole hearing until the 6th month.
[39:25.390 --> 39:30.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: So he could not possibly have been released at the earliest time of his sentence.
[39:30.690 --> 39:40.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're found guilty of a misconduct one, you cannot be let go for parole for 9 additional months.
[39:40.410 --> 39:47.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if this misconduct one goes through he will be in prison for at least 15 months of the 24 month sentence.
[39:48.810 --> 39:54.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I know he went through a hearing and they found him guilty of the misconduct one.
[39:55.430 --> 40:00.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: and it is now an appeal with Jim Henderson who runs the men's correctional facility.
[40:01.090 --> 40:06.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is really unbelievable because he received the fax which he did not specifically tell you to send him.
[40:06.950 --> 40:07.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[40:07.530 --> 40:10.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: He's facing 9 months in prison as a result of that.
[40:10.650 --> 40:10.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[40:11.210 --> 40:14.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: With our experience with prisons in the past we've never really experienced this.
[40:15.090 --> 40:24.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've never dealt with a story with a prisoner before but of course I received advice from various other reporters who had done sort of prison reporting and never have come across this kind of difficulty.
[40:25.130 --> 40:35.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know I can understand the concern in prison you know prisons are serious business but I sent in a statement explaining what had happened.
[40:36.070 --> 40:50.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now of late after having spoken to Jim Henderson myself he says that Bernie will not be found guilty of the fax charge but there's another charge now that almost mysteriously appeared at the same time.
[40:52.070 --> 41:07.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: so my explanation does not negate the misconduct one because he is also being found guilty of community service rule 2D which is you will perform all tasks as directed by your supervisor.
[41:07.630 --> 41:37.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now I guess after this charge had been laid someone wrote in a secret letter and they will not say who was written by but that Bernie had not finished his duties while on this chain gang and what he had not finished was pulling weeds now Bernie says that he had finished it he actually made a point of going back and finishing his duties but apparently someone wrote in and said he did not finish his
[41:37.070 --> 41:42.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: duties so he has to spend another nine months in prison because a few weeds weren't pulled So, it's an appeal right now.
[41:43.130 --> 41:49.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we'll know by Thursday whether or not they change their mind.
[41:49.910 --> 41:52.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Jim Henderson seemed to be positive about it.
[41:52.990 --> 41:54.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: But there's no telling.
[41:54.410 --> 41:57.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what they tell one person than another.
[41:57.490 --> 41:59.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they obviously don't want bad press.
[41:59.470 --> 42:02.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, I hope they see reason.
[42:02.650 --> 42:07.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, now, they also said at one point that it's illegal for prisoners to speak to the press.
[42:07.290 --> 42:08.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Did you hear that?
[42:08.070 --> 42:09.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: This was interesting, yeah.
[42:09.450 --> 42:20.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie said that in a meeting that he had had, in his appeal meeting, that the real reason he was being punished was because he spoke with the press.
[42:21.210 --> 42:24.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I haven't actually received that statement from anyone.
[42:24.950 --> 42:31.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: But there obviously was concern from the prison about the statement that was made because I was contacted by the prison.
[42:31.790 --> 42:46.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they explained that they didn't want... I know in California, I don't know what the ruling is right now, but apparently there was a recent ruling, or it's still pending, I'm not sure, that California State is not allowing reporters to speak with the press.
[42:47.490 --> 42:51.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're trying to distinguish between, you know, your television hard copy and...
[42:51.350 --> 42:52.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Not allowing reporters to speak to the press?
[42:53.810 --> 42:54.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[42:54.650 --> 42:54.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
[42:54.850 --> 42:55.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not allowing prisoners to speak to the press.
[42:55.990 --> 42:56.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Prisoners, okay.
[42:56.490 --> 42:56.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[42:56.830 --> 42:57.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
[42:57.430 --> 42:58.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for clarifying.
[42:58.370 --> 42:58.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: No problem.
[42:58.510 --> 43:00.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, we can speak to ourselves.
[43:00.750 --> 43:03.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, yes, I mean, it's, you know, certainly an issue right now.
[43:03.870 --> 43:09.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess they were looking for some kind of consistency, and the prison said, you know, they have to be consistent.
[43:09.090 --> 43:11.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe in the past they've allowed prisoners to speak to the press.
[43:11.970 --> 43:15.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think, as far as that's concerned, I think they've changed their mind on that as well.
[43:16.130 --> 43:20.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: At least when I spoke with them, they said he had every right to speak with the press.
[43:21.370 --> 43:25.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't know if, you know, they're speaking with two heads, they're two-faced or not.
[43:25.230 --> 43:29.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, things might look up, we'll know, by Thursday.
[43:30.350 --> 43:38.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, considering that, you know, he really should have been out in June, because he served the time that he was supposed to serve, this is completely outrageous.
[43:39.170 --> 43:45.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, do you get the impression that they're just gunning for him, looking for him to do any minor things so they could really put the screws to him?
[43:45.310 --> 43:46.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's interesting.
[43:46.190 --> 43:48.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to say who's, you know, who's after him.
[43:48.530 --> 43:57.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Some people say the Secret Service, you know, have sort of bent the ear of certain prison officials and so on, and, you know, really are trying to get him to serve the maximum sentence.
[43:57.710 --> 44:05.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly in the courtroom, I mean, in my opinion, you know, Bernie was really made out to look a lot worse than he was.
[44:05.690 --> 44:11.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is a guy who has just a serious curiosity in hacking and in telecommunications and ham radio.
[44:12.870 --> 44:14.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, they held that against him.
[44:15.070 --> 44:18.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's just unfortunate.
[44:18.110 --> 44:27.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the things that, you know, that transpired with his case happened during, you know, periods of time in American history, like the Oklahoma City bombing, where, you know, we were just...
[44:28.430 --> 44:32.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: The country was just scared, scared silly, and the courts are scared.
[44:32.570 --> 44:40.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you have the Secret Service telling them that this is a guy who potentially can create bombs, even though he didn't have any bomb materials in his home.
[44:40.750 --> 44:43.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right, but the Secret Service knew that he wasn't building bombs.
[44:43.210 --> 44:45.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: For some reason, though, they chose to say that he was.
[44:45.770 --> 44:47.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I don't think it was fear on their part.
[44:47.750 --> 44:49.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, I believe it's fear on the court's part.
[44:49.730 --> 44:51.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't believe it's fear on the Secret Service's part.
[44:52.030 --> 44:53.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: What do you think it is on their part?
[44:53.970 --> 44:57.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there, you know, there's rumors about the photograph that were found in Ed's...
[44:57.970 --> 45:00.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, Bernie's file cabinet.
[45:01.190 --> 45:02.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what to refer to him by his handle.
[45:03.770 --> 45:04.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you can call me.
[45:04.730 --> 45:05.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ed Cummings is real.
[45:05.690 --> 45:05.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[45:06.030 --> 45:07.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're all cool with that.
[45:07.330 --> 45:18.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so, I mean, I don't know if you've spoken about that on your show before, but there were four photographs that were captured on film by Fox Network at a local Philadelphia 2600 meeting.
[45:18.750 --> 45:18.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[45:19.190 --> 45:20.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was, you know, shown all over the air.
[45:21.090 --> 45:22.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess it was unfortunate.
[45:22.850 --> 45:24.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was an embarrassment to the Secret Service.
[45:24.790 --> 45:27.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, actually, those pictures, and you can see those pictures on our website, too.
[45:27.710 --> 45:33.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: www.2600.com, they were taken by somebody from his home when Secret Service...
[45:33.890 --> 45:41.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: or actually, I think from his office, when some Secret Service agents came to visit, and he had a surveillance camera running all the time, and it was within his right to do that.
[45:41.450 --> 45:41.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sure.
[45:41.610 --> 45:43.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: And he simply gave Bernie a copy of those pictures.
[45:44.070 --> 45:47.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: One of them included the SS guys picking their noses and things like that.
[45:47.770 --> 45:53.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: I guess they were just embarrassed silly about this, so much to the point where they really were gunning for Ed.
[45:53.430 --> 45:55.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then Fox Network didn't help out any.
[45:56.410 --> 46:00.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: In their program, apparently, it said something to the effect that the Secret Service was checking out hackers.
[46:01.230 --> 46:05.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it looked like, you know, the hackers were even better investigating the Secret Service.
[46:05.870 --> 46:09.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it was obviously an embarrassment, and it wasn't Ed's fault.
[46:09.350 --> 46:14.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: He just happened to have these photographs, and they were found in his file cabinet a year later, a year after the incident.
[46:15.210 --> 46:19.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's very possible these guys said, Oh, God, our luck, we found him.
[46:19.750 --> 46:20.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the guy.
[46:20.790 --> 46:23.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's, you know, that's what some people say, and I don't know.
[46:23.870 --> 46:29.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, they obviously pushed hard in the case with evidence they found in his house.
[46:30.070 --> 46:39.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: One piece of evidence was material that they introduced as looking like C4, but was really dental putty that Ed had.
[46:39.350 --> 46:45.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's just kind of strange that you would introduce evidence that you knew was not C4 or some kind of bomb-making material.
[46:45.650 --> 46:47.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because the C4 stays in your mind.
[46:47.850 --> 46:47.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[46:48.170 --> 46:50.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: You sort of forget that it wasn't C4.
[46:50.790 --> 46:52.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: You just think, wow, he could have had C4.
[46:52.310 --> 47:03.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess the way it was introduced was, you know, this just goes to show how important, you know, our finding of this dental putty and our belief that it might have been C4 just goes to show you how serious this case really is.
[47:03.890 --> 47:05.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's how they present it to the court.
[47:06.090 --> 47:11.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: That we might have believed that it was C4 shows you that this is a very serious case and this guy could potentially make bombs.
[47:11.550 --> 47:16.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Actually, I'd like to read to you a little bit that something we published in this current issue.
[47:16.090 --> 47:19.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: We printed the entire transcript of Bernie's sentencing.
[47:19.210 --> 47:21.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it shows you just how outrageous these people are.
[47:22.210 --> 47:27.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is part of the statement of Tom Varney, Secret Service agent Tom Varney from the Philadelphia office.
[47:28.230 --> 47:46.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Additionally, Your Honor, Mr. Cummings, throughout this investigation and throughout his federal trial, made various statements while in jail to a talk show, WBAI, in New York City regarding this investigation, Mr. Cummings would call WBAI and make statements regarding the Secret Service and other agencies and the courtroom proceedings.
[47:46.650 --> 47:53.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Additionally, Your Honor, found in the search were copies of 2600 Magazine and bulletin board statements regarding various issues.
[47:54.190 --> 47:54.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ooh.
[47:55.270 --> 48:01.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Just to make the court aware, the 2600 Magazines were originally founded by a group of computer hackers, Your Honor.
[48:02.710 --> 48:14.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Additionally, covered in the 2600 Magazine, the Internet and various other bulletin boards, electronic bulletin boards with statements by individuals regarding both the federal case and this case currently before the court today.
[48:15.330 --> 48:21.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Additionally, there have been Internet messages sent to the White House and to the First Lady, Mrs. Clinton, regarding this case, Your Honor.
[48:21.850 --> 48:30.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: And also, I would like to close with saying that Mr. Cummings' followers have taken upon themselves to make this, and that's where he was interrupted and stopped from saying anything more by the judge.
[48:30.650 --> 48:33.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it just goes to show how insane these people are.
[48:33.910 --> 48:38.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: They think that speaking out on a radio station, putting out a magazine, those are real threats.
[48:38.490 --> 48:41.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's where, you know, where the danger lies.
[48:43.290 --> 48:47.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'd also say that, I don't know if this connection's still strong here.
[48:47.310 --> 48:48.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it breaking up a little bit over there?
[48:49.410 --> 48:50.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: It breaks up.
[48:50.310 --> 48:50.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[48:51.490 --> 49:01.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: One thing I would just add is, I mean, I can understand to some degree, with the Secret Service, after finding all the so-called evidence in Bernie's home, why there would be an initial concern.
[49:01.970 --> 49:15.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just objectively, I can understand, if you saw all these materials, books about bomb making or what have you, and zillions of people have this kind of material, but it just seems strange after further investigation that it would have continued on.
[49:15.910 --> 49:24.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: So initially, I can understand why there would have been maybe an investigation to some degree, but obviously it's gone way past the point of reason, in my opinion.
[49:24.750 --> 49:24.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[49:24.950 --> 49:26.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they know everything we know.
[49:26.610 --> 49:29.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: They know, you know, what he did and what he did not do.
[49:30.130 --> 49:32.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: To continue this is just criminal.
[49:32.550 --> 49:33.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: It really is.
[49:33.570 --> 49:33.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[49:34.470 --> 49:34.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[49:35.130 --> 49:35.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's unfortunate.
[49:36.310 --> 49:38.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, I mean, it's just...
[49:39.790 --> 49:40.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: He's...
[49:40.930 --> 49:44.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he's either the unluckiest guy in the world, or, you know, someone wants to make him pay.
[49:45.190 --> 49:45.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[49:45.990 --> 49:46.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[49:46.230 --> 49:48.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think it's a combination, but I think it's mostly the latter.
[49:48.930 --> 49:49.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[49:49.130 --> 49:57.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: You have somebody who's being very vindictive and just trying to, you know, to screw you every way that they can, and these people have a lot of power.
[49:58.030 --> 50:00.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: And when you have a lot of power, you can basically do whatever you want.
[50:00.530 --> 50:06.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like, you know, in the prison, he can be found guilty of, you know, of throwing a gum wrapper on the floor and sentenced to a year in prison.
[50:07.210 --> 50:08.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it happens.
[50:08.570 --> 50:10.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: They can do whatever they want.
[50:10.210 --> 50:11.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: They can just lie.
[50:11.430 --> 50:12.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: They can do anything.
[50:12.730 --> 50:19.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, apparently now there's also laws going into effect so that prisoners can now get due process because they can't right now.
[50:20.090 --> 50:24.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: The criminal system, the judiciary system in prison right now is extremely crude.
[50:24.870 --> 50:27.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is admitted by prison officials where Ed's staying.
[50:28.170 --> 50:29.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just extremely crude.
[50:29.790 --> 50:31.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's medieval.
[50:32.170 --> 50:38.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, there are laws now going into effect that hopefully prisoners will now get some rights and get due process.
[50:38.310 --> 50:40.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: But unfortunately, that does not exist right now.
[50:40.330 --> 50:48.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, there's a big anti-prisoner mentality that's being brought about today where, you know, it's us versus the criminals.
[50:48.430 --> 50:50.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, if they're a criminal, you're in prison.
[50:50.370 --> 50:53.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, of course, there's more prisoners now than ever before in world history.
[50:53.850 --> 50:59.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think it's over one and a half million people either in prison or on probation at this point in time.
[50:59.490 --> 51:03.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, you know, you're not going to get very much sympathy because of the way it's being portrayed.
[51:04.210 --> 51:04.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[51:04.670 --> 51:12.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, when you first stumbled upon our web page and saw this story, did you have kind of a doubt, maybe, that the story was being a little exaggerated, perhaps?
[51:12.950 --> 51:17.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are certainly parts of the case that seemed exaggerated, I have to admit.
[51:17.790 --> 51:19.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's hard to say.
[51:20.110 --> 51:27.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, depending on who you speak to regarding the story, I mean, the story diverges into two extremely different, you know, directions.
[51:27.390 --> 51:29.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're really talking...
[51:29.490 --> 51:37.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if, you know, you want to tell the Bernie S story, Secret Service versus Bernie S, you'd really have to tell two stories because they just don't match up.
[51:39.050 --> 51:46.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: In my opinion, I just believe that Ed got extremely unlucky and I think he pissed a few people off.
[51:47.450 --> 51:48.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think...
[51:48.730 --> 51:52.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: I do believe that, you know, there's someone out there to get him because there's just too much.
[51:52.730 --> 51:53.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's too much craziness.
[51:54.950 --> 51:56.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Too many odd things.
[51:57.390 --> 51:59.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: In part, the high bail sendings were amazing.
[52:00.430 --> 52:04.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: That the judges kept sending high bails that would put him into maximum security prisons.
[52:05.070 --> 52:11.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you're talking about a guy who is accused of the intent to commit telecommunications fraud.
[52:11.870 --> 52:14.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: So they're not even accusing him of committing fraud.
[52:14.170 --> 52:15.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just the intent.
[52:15.590 --> 52:16.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay?
[52:16.290 --> 52:17.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, anyone can have the intent.
[52:17.630 --> 52:19.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Walking down the street, I could have the intent to commit fraud.
[52:20.470 --> 52:23.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Whether or not I do that is another, you know, another story altogether.
[52:23.590 --> 52:26.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: So this guy's in a maximum...
[52:26.170 --> 52:29.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: He's received at some point a $250,000 bail sentence.
[52:31.410 --> 52:37.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, I mean, that puts him immediately into maximum security wings with prisoners who are...
[52:37.550 --> 52:40.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: have committed all sorts of horrible crimes.
[52:40.450 --> 52:43.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when I say crimes, I mean physical crimes, including murder.
[52:43.650 --> 52:45.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's just strange.
[52:46.190 --> 52:47.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't match up.
[52:47.430 --> 52:48.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't understand...
[52:50.030 --> 52:54.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand why the judges didn't see this and how they let this go by.
[52:54.750 --> 52:55.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty amazing.
[52:56.530 --> 52:59.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, the story that you're putting out, when will we be seeing this?
[52:59.990 --> 53:01.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's in Internet Underground.
[53:01.630 --> 53:03.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a relatively new Ziff Davis publication.
[53:04.450 --> 53:06.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it will be out probably in a couple of weeks.
[53:07.030 --> 53:07.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: And...
[53:07.470 --> 53:08.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Be able to read the full story.
[53:08.470 --> 53:11.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to really tell the entire story, it would take pages or volumes.
[53:11.530 --> 53:11.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[53:11.770 --> 53:14.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's a good story.
[53:14.350 --> 53:24.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it goes through pretty carefully all the instances of the case up until the point just before this incident with the faxing of the document.
[53:25.050 --> 53:25.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: I actually went to press.
[53:26.110 --> 53:28.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I found out about that after the fact.
[53:29.150 --> 53:30.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, so the fax incident isn't in there at all?
[53:31.190 --> 53:31.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, it isn't.
[53:31.710 --> 53:37.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll probably put up on our website, underground-online.com, updates about what's happening.
[53:38.030 --> 53:45.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly on Thursday, we'll post what happened to Bernie Ass and whether or not he received his appeal.
[53:45.490 --> 53:49.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, I mean, he's already served, I think, seven, eight months of his state sentence.
[53:49.210 --> 53:51.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: He's already served a seven-month federal sentence.
[53:52.530 --> 53:53.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's crazy.
[53:53.950 --> 53:54.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: It is.
[53:54.490 --> 54:02.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: I understand from people telling me that he is back in the minimum security place now after serving 19 days of a 10-day sentence.
[54:03.410 --> 54:04.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, um...
[54:04.290 --> 54:04.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[54:04.550 --> 54:05.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was weird.
[54:05.270 --> 54:08.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was a legal precedent set in the prison with...
[54:08.830 --> 54:17.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: It always seems, I mean, with the Zudyk plea in regard to his case, I guess he was first tried under this federal intent to commit telecommunications fraud.
[54:18.510 --> 54:25.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he was also the first to set the legal precedent in Bucks County Prison in regard to this misconduct charge.
[54:25.570 --> 54:27.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: I sent in a notarized document.
[54:27.270 --> 54:27.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: They read it.
[54:27.950 --> 54:30.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess they weren't sure how to decide.
[54:30.630 --> 54:34.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: So they decided to not decide for another five days.
[54:34.390 --> 54:40.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, of course, he's in prison for another five days in the maximum security wing until they come up with their decision.
[54:41.090 --> 54:41.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: They found him guilty.
[54:43.410 --> 54:44.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then it's gone into appeal.
[54:45.190 --> 54:53.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, they can find ways to make someone stay over a prescribed sentence rather easily.
[54:54.210 --> 54:54.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's unbelievable.
[54:55.210 --> 54:57.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, Rob Bernstein from Internet Underground.
[54:57.330 --> 54:58.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: I want to thank you very much for being with us.
[54:58.890 --> 54:58.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: You bet.
[54:58.930 --> 54:59.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks for having me.
[54:59.450 --> 55:01.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: And hopefully we'll speak to you again.
[55:01.290 --> 55:02.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'll update this case next week.
[55:02.690 --> 55:03.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Absolutely.
[55:03.290 --> 55:04.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: The hearing is this Thursday, right?
[55:04.990 --> 55:06.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it'll be this Thursday.
[55:06.550 --> 55:06.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[55:07.270 --> 55:07.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[55:07.750 --> 55:08.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, good luck.
[55:08.830 --> 55:11.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: And may all your stories be as interesting as this one.
[55:11.390 --> 55:11.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: I hope so.
[55:11.930 --> 55:12.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe not as sad.
[55:13.070 --> 55:13.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[55:13.490 --> 55:13.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks a lot.
[55:14.170 --> 55:14.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: You bet.
[55:14.490 --> 55:14.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Take care.
[55:15.550 --> 55:17.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: That was Rob Bernstein from Internet Underground.
[55:17.330 --> 55:19.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's an article I'm certainly going to look forward to seeing.
[55:20.430 --> 55:21.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: There should be lots of articles.
[55:21.770 --> 55:24.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: There should be articles in the New York Times about this kind of thing.
[55:24.490 --> 55:30.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: And maybe if listeners out there feel they can help in some way getting publicity speaking to reporters...
[55:30.070 --> 55:35.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, you know, he really got the shaft this time because they didn't want him speaking to this reporter.
[55:35.850 --> 55:37.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I think in the long term...
[55:38.270 --> 55:41.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think in the long term he prefers it this way.
[55:41.630 --> 55:47.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's my impression that he would rather speak to this reporter than not speak to him.
[55:48.390 --> 55:50.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Farber, nothing like when you were in prison.
[55:50.410 --> 55:54.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, it was a lot easier to talk to media people.
[55:54.490 --> 55:55.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: You were called CNN, in fact.
[55:55.750 --> 55:56.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: That was your name.
[55:57.650 --> 56:00.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: At least for from a couple of people anyway.
[56:00.870 --> 56:14.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it's the same sort of Mickey Mouse logic at work that never ceases to amaze me and probably sounds completely ridiculous to outsiders, but in fact it's kind of scary when you're actually living under it.
[56:15.570 --> 56:16.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's true.
[56:16.890 --> 56:21.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we are all living under it in one form or another, even if we don't see it just now.
[56:22.990 --> 56:24.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Unfortunately, we have to leave a little bit early tonight.
[56:24.850 --> 56:29.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: We have an update coming your way from San Diego where all the Republicans are right now.
[56:30.590 --> 56:37.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: However, we'll be back again next week with updates on this case and all kinds of other things that are going on.
[56:37.190 --> 56:38.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: There are a couple issues we wanted to get to this week which we didn't.
[56:38.950 --> 56:39.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you know what else we didn't get to?
[56:39.890 --> 56:40.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: We didn't get to any phone calls.
[56:41.010 --> 56:41.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're sorry.
[56:41.630 --> 56:42.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: It happens sometimes.
[56:42.990 --> 56:46.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: But we'll be back again next week with another fun-filled edition of Off the Hook.
[56:46.930 --> 56:48.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Until then, for Phiber Optik, this is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[56:49.250 --> 56:49.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good night.