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What are you doing, Brother Shine?
Breathing.
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This is Miss Tomlin at the telephone company.
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Friday night at 7.15, right here at WBAI-FM in New York City, 99.5.
You have dialed, dialed a dirty joke.
A chicken is standing on a corner.
It's a nice, beautiful day.
But all of a sudden, up walks the farmer, the owner of the chicken.
And I actually know how that joke ends, too.
This is Emanuel Goldstein.
It's 7.39.
And no, we're never on at this time.
And you probably don't know that we're on at this time.
But guess what?
It's time for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the floor.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
It couldn't get much worse, but if it could, they would.
Bumbin' it.
Maybe you'll catch the repeat.
This is our special fundraising edition of Off the Hook,
so hopefully a lot of you are out there listening
because we have all kinds of exciting things to talk about
and some pretty neat things to give to those people kind enough to call us up
and show their support for this radio station and for this program
and for the ideas and things that we've been communicating to you
over the past several months or so.
With us on the phone right now is, I guess, one of America's leading,
how would you call it, cyber criminal storyteller or something like that.
We have John Litman, who was the author of last year's The Fugitive Game
and an exciting new book that has not yet come out, but which is about to.
And, John, are you there?
Uh-oh. I forgot to hit the button.
Okay, John, are you there?
Yes.
Okay, sorry about that. A little technical glitch there.
That's okay.
So now you've got a new book coming out.
We'll talk about The Fugitive Game in a minute,
but tell us what the title of this brand-new book is.
The new book is called The Watchman,
and it's the twisted life and crimes of serial hacker Kevin Paulson.
Serial hacker Kevin Paulson.
That's right.
That conjures up an image.
Well, Kevin Paulson was a fellow who was winning Porsches in Los Angeles.
You know, the radio giveaways where they give away Porsches and tens of thousands of dollars.
He could win any time he wanted to.
He also learned more about how our government is wiretapping,
and sometimes wiretapping in ways maybe we don't believe the government should be,
than any other person has ever before.
I see.
Now, apart from that, what significant details of Kevin Paulson's story are included in this book?
Well, actually, this is the book I was working on before I started writing The Fugitive Game,
the story of Kevin Mitnick and his capture by Shimomura.
And so I had been working on this for a while and wrote an L.A. Times magazine piece,
and actually it was optioned for a movie.
And I started working on it and started researching Paulson's life.
He lived in Los Angeles, and he worked in Silicon Valley.
And was one of the first sort of hackers busted in the early 80s,
back when they used to call the Internet the ARPANET.
And it was an interesting story, and I was working away on it.
And then Mitnick got captured, and I put it aside for a little bit
to write a story about Kevin Mitnick, The Fugitive Game.
And then I returned to it, and I really enjoyed the story.
And they were just tremendous, fascinating characters,
not just Paulson, but a fellow by the name of Agent Steele,
who also appears in the other story, The Fugitive Game,
and Ron Austin.
And this story was sort of set in Hollywood.
So there are all sorts of wild car chases on the Sunset Strip.
Well, can you give us one of those exciting stories on the Sunset Strip there,
or whatever?
Well, Paulson was, you know the Yellow Pages?
They have these little advertisements in the Yellow Pages for escort services.
Well, that's the euphemism, anyway.
And Paulson figured out that the government usually shuts down many of these ads
and turns off the phone number.
And, of course, he was quite clever with Pac Bell's switches,
so he learned how to surreptitiously turn these disconnected lines back on,
and then he would forward the incoming calls to a very cleverly arranged escort business,
a voicemail escort business.
And he turned on about 50 escort ads of, you know,
these are $5,000 apiece in the L.A. phone book.
So these were pretty wild crimes that Kevin was up to.
Wow.
Now, how would you compare someone like Kevin Paulson to someone like Kevin Mitnick,
who we've heard a lot more about on this program?
Well, I think there's one clear difference.
No one has ever proved or the government has not proved or alleged
that Kevin Mitnick ever committed what it calls crimes for a profit, you know, for money.
Whereas Kevin Paulson, clearly he had his own ethic and his own belief
that what he was doing was right, but he certainly was doing certain things for profit.
The, you know, the escort ads, the prostitution business, that was for profit, you know,
winning the Porsches and tens of thousands of dollars, you know, that was for money.
And so I think he did cross a line that, at least according to the government
and according to Kevin Mitnick, Mitnick never did.
Uh-huh.
And do you think that Paulson was treated fairly, though?
Well, Paulson was the first hacker ever charged with espionage,
and he was actually charged in two separate cases,
and it took an awful long time to go to trial.
I mean, one thing I find personally disturbing about a lot of hacker cases is, you know,
whatever the merits of the case are, I'd like it in America if people went to trial fairly promptly
and, you know, if they're guilty or innocent, they'd be tried quickly.
In Paulson's case, in his second case, it actually took four years for him really to get to trial.
And I just think that's too long.
Uh-huh.
Now, the espionage charges, what were they based on?
Was there any merit to them whatsoever?
Well, here's what's interesting.
The espionage, the original espionage charge was that he had allegedly hacked into something called Masnet,
which was a military site on the ARPANET.
And it turns out that there was no proof that he had hacked in,
that it wasn't really a classified site,
and the charge was really seemed to be quite dubious.
But what happened was what I learned and wasn't publicly known in his court case
and is sort of an important part of the story is that Kevin actually learned how our wiretaps are organized in Pac-Bell,
at least in California, in the whole state of California.
And so he knew virtually every wiretap by the FBI, by the DEA, by the Secret Service.
And he also knew spy taps when we were spying foreign governments in the U.S.
and so these things were never brought out in court.
And as you know, often with really strong hacker cases,
hackers often show such glaring problems with the system and with society
that they don't want to make these things public, and I have in the book.
And I think readers can make up their own minds about how serious they think this was.
What is Kevin Paulson's situation right now?
He served five years in jail in a few months and was released last summer.
And he has an extraordinary condition on his probation,
which seems to be something the government's trying to put on a lot of hackers,
and that is that he's not allowed to use a computer or the Internet for three years,
which, you know, in our society where the Internet is, you know, as ubiquitous as a telephone,
it just seems to me a bit strange.
He has protested it himself and said that, you know, if he interprets this strictly,
he can't go to a library, he can't check out a book at a library.
He really can get almost no job because if he has any computer usage.
His parents, he was living with his parents for a while,
they were forced to sell their home computer.
So he has about two and a half years of probation before he essentially can do what he wants.
That is something that we're hearing an increasing number of examples of,
these kinds of conditions where people cannot use computers or have special kinds of restrictions
which are almost impossible to live by in this day and age.
Yeah, and unfortunately they're often brought forth by judges who grew up in another era
and, you know, can't spell the Internet, let alone, you know, surf to a website.
So they just have no idea, I think, unfortunately, of how severe this is in our society.
And I'm sure you're aware there was another case where the judge actually said
an individual couldn't say the word computer.
That was one of his conditions of house arrest.
They couldn't say the word computer?
Yeah, that was the case, Christopher Channot.
Do you know the Philadelphia St. Louis case?
Yes.
Yeah, just extraordinary in my mind.
I mean, that starts to sound like Big Brother when you can't say a word.
Now, where did you hear?
I have never heard this particular aspect of that case before,
that he cannot say the word computer.
Who said that?
I believe it came from the U.S. Attorney's Office.
It was one of the conditions.
They actually put that in a sentence somewhere that he's not allowed to utter the phrase.
I just want to see that, you know?
I just want to see that in writing.
It's pretty wild, Emanuel.
The judge in the case, apparently, he was confined to house arrest, if you recall,
because he was pretty young.
And so he was confined to house arrest at his parents' house.
And they were concerned he would build a computer and so forth.
And so there was all these concerns that he couldn't have parts of a computer,
and, you know, he couldn't certainly use a computer,
and then he also couldn't speak the word computer.
And it just sort of boggles the mind.
Well, I think that certainly paints a picture as to where justice is in relation to the computer age.
Let's move to Kevin Mitnick.
This is a story that, of course, more of our listeners are familiar with,
and you wrote a book on it last year called The Fugitive Game.
There's a new edition of The Fugitive Game, which just came out.
Yeah.
What I did was I tried to bring this story up to date,
and I spent some time researching, you know, the indictment against Mitnick,
because what a lot of people read was the charges that first appeared in The New York Times
and, you know, claims of this tremendous crimes allegedly by Mitnick.
And what I did was I followed it all the way through to the indictment,
and then I interviewed a number of the alleged victims that the government are claiming Mitnick hacked.
And what has changed since the first edition came out?
Well, what I found out was that the government alleged that Mitnick essentially hacked a number of companies,
and most of them are major cellular phone companies, everything from Motorola to Nokia.
And they've alleged that he, a combination of hacking and social engineering and old-fashioned packet filters,
that he was able to transfer source code from many of these major corporations.
And it largely looks like this was, you know, a hobby sort of gone wild,
and Mitnick was fascinated by cellular phones and really wanted to know how they work
and really wanted to soup up his cellular phone.
And neither the government nor the companies have alleged, again,
and this is the difference between Mitnick and Pulsom,
that he had a plan to profit by this or he was going to sell this to anyone.
Yet they're claiming that copying the source code and these intrusions cost these six or seven companies
$80 million in losses.
And that's never been put, you know, in a public document,
but I've nailed it down in this new edition.
And what's interesting is I interviewed the companies,
and what they said was that what Mitnick cost them was, you know, time and nuisance,
which is, you know, if you boil many of the hacker cases down over the last couple decades,
you'll find out, you know, lots of big claims in the press,
but when you track down the victims,
the real cost of the intrusion was the time it took, you know,
the systems people to, you know, track down the intrusion, clean things up,
and we're usually talking about a few thousand dollars.
A few tens of thousands lots of times.
Because you have to, they add into the figure what it costs to build a security system in the first place.
Well, these, interestingly enough, the folks I talked to didn't claim their loss to be building anything.
They claimed their loss to be the time they spent watching him, following him,
and then anything that might have been inadvertently left behind.
And they all talked about thousands.
You know, I don't know if they meant tens of thousands,
but when I told them the government figures,
and they weren't aware of it because it hadn't been public,
they just said it was ridiculous.
And this is kind of strange,
because these are the people they might try to put on the witness stand
if there's ever a case in trial against Kevin Mitnick.
Who do you think the government fears most,
people like Kevin Paulson or people like Kevin Mitnick?
I think, actually, truth be told,
Paulson, because Paulson, first off, he could wiretap anybody he wanted through using a Pac-Bell system,
essentially a maintenance system called SAS that was in place in all of California,
and different versions of it were in different parts of the country.
And so he could wiretap anybody he wanted to remotely,
and depending upon the switch,
there may or may not have been any sort of sound that the wiretap E would have heard.
So they didn't like that,
but what they really didn't like is that he knew who they were wiretapping,
let's say a mob tap of some big mob investigation,
and he could know it before the tap was installed,
because when there's a court order, it goes to, you know, Pac-Bell,
and things were entered into Pac-Bell systems
before someone actually went out to the, you know, bridging box,
the B-box on the street,
and actually hooked up the physical wiretap.
And they didn't like that he knew that in advance.
And then one of the most striking things of the watchmen
is that he actually discovered that we were, anyway,
and who knows, we may still be,
wiretapping the Israeli consulate and Chinese consulate
and South African consulate in Los Angeles.
And, as I said, these were never,
these details were never revealed in his case.
But, you know, they consider that to be national security stuff,
and they take that very, very seriously.
Well, now, should they be more concerned with his ability to do this
or for their inability to keep it quiet, to keep it secure?
Well, that's a good question.
He also learned where the taps ran to,
and all of these legal, you know, court-authorized wiretaps go back to,
usually they go back to FBI command centers, secret communication centers.
And he learned where the large one is in San Francisco and in Los Angeles
and exactly where they were.
And so they had to move these centers to a new location at a cost of millions of dollars.
They had to completely rethink how they process and serve wiretaps
and where records are kept and how they're kept in Pac-Bell and on the switch.
And, of course, they don't look at this as a service.
The government looks at this as a crime.
But the truth is the government was extremely sloppy about this,
and one would have to wonder if Kevin Poulsen could do this,
why couldn't a foreign agent do it?
Why couldn't somebody working for the mob do it?
And I tend to think we're better off that hopefully they've learned some lesson.
And, you know, real taps that need to be done for national security or mob investigations
hopefully are a little more secure.
I'd like to read a small section of the new book, The Watchman,
having to do with both Kevin Poulsen and Kevin Mitnick.
This referring to Kevin Poulsen.
Kevin reads,
The December 17, 1988 Los Angeles Times article with interest,
even if the story about a notorious hacker is about another Kevin.
Like any other self-respecting Los Angeles bred hacker,
Kevin knows the legend of Kevin Mitnick.
Rumored break-ins to NORAD, the North American Defense Command,
tales of judges and probation officers who had their credit records scrambled
and phones disconnected,
and, most colorful of all, credit for inspiring the movie War Games.
Few of the more outrageous charges have ever been proven,
but this time the government seems to have something solid on Mitnick.
The hacker has been charged with causing $4 million in damages
to a digital equipment corporation computer,
and a magistrate has ordered him held without bail,
ruling that, when armed with a keyboard,
he posed a danger to the community.
When armed with a keyboard?
The phrase angers Kevin.
Nothing irritates Kevin more than government hype,
and to him, the Mitnick case reeks.
Who has Mitnick hurt, he wonders.
When will the $4 million figure cooked up by the government
be knocked down 20-fold?
In the days following Mitnick's arrest,
the media hype builds to a frenzy.
Claims of threats to national security.
In a Page 1 L.A. Times article headlined,
Computer, an umbilical cord to his soul.
Dark side hacker seen as electronic terrorist.
It all starts to click.
The sensationalist stories, the trumped-up charges,
holding Mitnick without bail.
Kevin sees the same thing about to happen to him.
That's why he thinks the feds are making all the noise about national security.
If they can get him held without bail,
they can win before they've begun.
The government doesn't have to convict him, he figures.
He'll already be in jail.
I guess that pretty much summarizes
what was going through Polson's head
throughout this, uh, uh,
throughout his ordeal,
which has gone on for the better part of a decade.
Yeah, it went on for so long,
and it's one of the interesting things
about the Polson story is, uh,
the other thing I try to do in this story
is to take people
through the whole history
of hacking,
and in many ways,
you know,
what became the internet,
uh,
because actually,
Polson is the first hacker
who was arrested
for hacking
the internet.
It was just called,
you know,
the ARPANET
back in,
uh,
84.
And,
uh,
you know,
he had a long
sort of reign
on top.
And so,
through that time,
uh,
what I tried to do
in this story
is to weave in
some of the more remarkable,
um,
hacking episodes
that Polson
was very aware of
and,
and,
and was thinking about,
you know,
while he was
doing his thing,
uh,
you know,
everything from
Robert Morris'
worm,
uh,
you know,
which,
uh,
attacked the internet
in the late 80s,
hit,
and,
uh,
Cliff Stoll,
of course,
you know,
captured the,
the,
the,
the quote,
KGP hackers,
and all of these things
he was very aware of,
and he was very aware
that the tide was changing
and the government
was increasingly developing
a really hard line,
and,
um,
it was just one of these,
uh,
stories where you could see
a lot of the history
developing in,
in one individual
and,
in the government's actions
toward him
and,
and in some ways
his response.
You're listening to
WBAI New York.
We're talking with
John Litman
on a special extended edition
of Off the Hook,
John Litman being the author
of the,
uh,
new edition of
The Fugitive Game,
as well as a brand new book
called The Watchman,
The Twisted Life and Crimes
of Serial Hacker
Kevin Paulson.
Now,
John,
I know you have to,
you have to leave at some point.
Do you have to leave now
or do you have a few more minutes?
Yeah,
we could talk a couple more minutes
and then I probably should,
uh,
I just have to race off.
I apologize.
Okay,
no,
it's,
it's understandable,
especially with the,
uh,
short notice on the schedule change.
Um,
now,
uh,
we,
we have,
um,
these books available
for people to call in,
uh,
if they want to pledge
to the radio station.
We have a very special deal
and so a one-time only thing
because this is the only night
we're going to be on
during the whole pledge drive.
If you call up now,
212-279-3400,
and you,
you,
you gotta move quick
because we don't have
a whole lot of these things.
We've got copies
of The Fugitive Game,
we've got copies
of The Watchmen,
The Twisted Life and Crimes
of serial hacker Kevin Paulson,
and not only that,
we've got three books for you.
We've got
Where Wizards Stay Up Late
by Katie Hefner,
uh,
all of that for a pledge
of $100,
which I think is,
is probably one of the better deals
that you will hear
in,
in,
in quite some time.
Three really outstanding books
as far as,
uh,
the internet culture,
the hacker culture,
and available for anybody
calling up right now,
212-279-3400+.
Of course,
you'll also become a member
of WBAI,
which,
uh,
in itself
brings you the folio
12 times a year
so you know
what's on the radio,
and,
um,
and all kinds of other,
uh,
important things
will be coming your way
as a result of that,
but,
uh,
you have to give us a call,
212-279-3400
to take advantage of that.
Uh,
not only will you be getting
these books,
but you'll be,
you'll be supporting
Off the Hook,
you'll be supporting
future programs
so that we can continue
to stay on the air
and bring you things
like this in the future.
Now,
we know a lot of people
out there,
uh,
listen from week to week
and,
um,
and,
and draw quite a bit
of knowledge.
We started putting the program
on the internet
and,
um,
getting out to a lot more people
in various parts of the world.
Uh,
this kind of thing
has,
has never really been done before,
um,
on,
on this radio station,
on,
on any radio station
where we,
uh,
try to actually reach out
to the four corners
of the earth
and,
and,
and bring in hacker experiences
and new technology notes.
Uh,
we can continue to do things
like this in the future,
but the reason
that we're able to
in the first place
is because we don't have
any commercials.
We don't have to worry
about those annoying sponsors.
Our sponsors are you,
our sponsors are our listeners,
and the flip side is
that we have to ask
for money every now and then,
and this is one of those
times where we do.
Uh,
if,
uh,
you come through for us,
then we can survive
for,
uh,
a bit longer
and continue to do things
that you want us to do.
So please,
give us a call,
212-279-3400.
Our phone lines
are wide open,
and,
uh,
John,
I think you,
uh,
you recognize the importance
of,
um,
of,
of non-commercial radio
as far as,
uh,
getting word out
on things like this.
Oh,
yes,
it's terrific.
I,
you know,
really believe in it,
and,
uh,
I vastly prefer radio
to television.
In fact,
I must admit,
my cable hookup
is,
is not hooked up
because I don't want
to pay that $35 a month.
Yeah,
I mean,
that's how they get you.
You have to pay for cable,
yet you get commercials
on cable.
I can't,
I can't figure that out.
I thought when cable
first started,
you didn't get commercials
on it,
but now you pay for it,
and,
you know,
it's a mandatory fee.
It's not like the cable
company gets on and says,
oh,
please,
you know,
help us out here
because we're struggling,
but,
uh,
you know,
it's a,
it's a mandatory thing.
They cut your cable
if you don't pay it,
and then you gotta watch
the commercials anyway.
See,
here at BAI,
the only time we ever
even mention commercial
companies is when we're
talking about them
objectively,
all right,
so we have the freedom
to be able to do that.
For instance,
I'll give you,
I'll give you an example.
Over the last few weeks,
we've been experimenting
with new GSM telephone
technology,
and there's a company
in town called Omnipoint.
Now,
I happen to think
Omnipoint sucks.
I think their service
is terrible.
I think they're too expensive.
I think the range is awful,
but FiberOptics sits
on the other side of the room
and defends them
and says,
oh,
they're pretty good.
You know,
they're okay.
They're not that expensive,
and the service is,
is,
or we could not have
a conversation like that
if,
say,
Omnipoint were one
of our sponsors,
or if another phone company
someplace was sponsoring us,
we wouldn't be able to talk
about any other phone companies,
and that's,
that's the insidious way
that they,
they get to you.
They control you.
Well,
it's about to,
I probably should race off,
Manuel,
but one last thing I'll say
is it's about to get worse
because,
you know,
you've got MSNBC,
and you can imagine
how objective Tom Brokaw
is about Bill Gates.
Right.
When he's interviewing him
for MSNBC,
but,
I can only imagine,
yeah.
Thanks for having me
on the show.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks very much
for,
for,
for the donations
of the books
and for,
for writing the books
in the first place.
Thanks.
All right.
Appreciate it.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
John Litman there
on,
on the phone
from California
who has just put out
a brand new book.
Actually,
the book won't be coming out
until March 31st,
but if you pledge now,
you can put yourself
on the list of people
who will get it
as soon as it's available.
The Watchman,
The Twisted Life and Crimes
of serial hacker
Kevin Paulson,
as well as the updated
version of The Fugitive Game
online with Kevin Mitnick,
the inside story
of the great cyber chase.
Of all the books
that have come out
about the whole
Mitnick saga,
I would have to say
this is the most objective.
This is the one
that,
that reviews
the whole process
of books coming out
in the first place.
Why it's so
completely crazy
and incestuous,
the way that
New York Times reporters
become part of the chase
and then they wind up
signing multi-million dollar
book and movie contracts
about the person
that they track down.
The whole thing
is completely crazy
and really strange.
I think The Fugitive Game
is the one book
that really captured it,
that really was able
to bring everything
to life.
And what's included here
is a new epilogue
that gives all the details
as to what happened
in the year following the book.
212-279-3400.
In addition,
we have
Where Wizards Stay Up Late.
We have David here
who's going to tell us
what's that book all about.
Katie Heffner
was going to be here tonight.
Unfortunately,
she couldn't make it
when we switched
the time on her
at the last minute.
But what's this book all about?
Well,
Where Wizards Stay Up Late
by Katie Heffner
and also Matthew Lyon
is sort of what
what Steve Levy's Hackers
is to the history
of the personal computer.
This book is to the internet.
It's a history and chronology
not only of the formation
of the internet
but of the lives
of the people
who created it,
who sat down,
planned it out.
And what's really ironic
is the fact that
given all the disorganization
that took place
that we got to the point
where we are.
Also,
it's interesting that
it's also a chronicle
of the life of the company
of both Beranek and Newman,
better known as BBN,
which started out
as a psychoacoustics company.
They were responsible
for the acoustics
at Lincoln Center
as well as the translation systems
at the United Nations.
That's how they started out.
And then,
all of a sudden,
they got involved
in this project
to create this network
for the government
and quasi-governmental agencies
and the military.
And then it just took off.
And then they started getting
psychoacoustics
professionals involved.
And it was just odd
that that's the field
that all this would come from.
And it just keeps going on
discussing how they planned it out,
how it was carried out
to various academic institutions
and also military bases.
212-279-3400.
Take advantage of this offer.
Three books for a pledge
of $100.
John Lippman's two books,
The Fugitive Game,
The Watchman,
and the Katie Hefner book,
Where Wizards Stay Up Late.
And this really goes
into the history
of how everything got started
and who the founders,
the movers and shakers were
with the whole culture
that we're all involved in now.
It's a good package
for people who are interested
in the kinds of things
that we talk about tonight
and every night
on this radio program.
And more importantly,
I mean,
people should call out
to take advantage of the offer
and get these books
and have some really
educational experiences
reading them.
But the most important thing
right now is to show you
support for the radio station,
show you support for Off the Hook,
because we are the only program
like this anywhere that I can see.
Okay, we've got 50 bucks so far.
That's great.
But, you know,
we've got to raise it
quite a bit more than that.
Otherwise, we may not be,
there may not be
any huge radio shows like us
around much longer
because we have to know
that there are people out there
not just calling in
with various questions
about 9X
and about the latest
computer hacker events
and things like that.
We have to know
that these people are here
for us when we need help.
And this is when we need help.
We don't do this very often,
but we have to ask for support.
212-279-3400.
If you've gotten something
out of this radio program
over the last year or so,
and a lot of things
have happened over the last year.
We had the entire
Bernie S. case unfold
literally over our airwaves.
We've seen the power
of BAI listeners
because I really don't think
he would be walking around
right now
if it were not
for BAI listeners.
So they definitely
came through
when we needed them then.
And we all of you
have a big debt of thanks
for that.
This is another way
of showing support
for the radio station
and for the radio program
off the hook.
212-279-3400.
Three books,
Fugitive Game,
The Watchmen,
and Where Wizards
Stay Up Late
for every pledge
of $100.
We also have another level
and this is for people
that want to pledge $50.
We have a subscription
to 2600 Magazine
and a 2600 Magazine
T-shirt thrown in there.
Those two things
for anybody pledging $50.
Again,
212-279-3400.
We have quite a few
of those lying around.
So you can be
the first person
in your community
or maybe the second
or third by now
to have a 2600 T-shirt,
walk around,
and meet all kinds
of interesting people.
And on the front,
I believe,
is a blue box design
and on the back
all kinds of interesting
newspaper clippings.
That's for every pledge
of $50.
Get both a subscription
and the 2600 T-shirt.
212-279-3400.
We have zero calls
on the line, okay?
That's, yeah,
zero calls.
Now, there must be
something wrong
with the phones.
This must be
an instance of 9X
blocking calls
coming through
to the radio station
just to show that,
oh, up to $150.
Okay, that's good.
That's a good start.
But it is a start
and we have to continue
moving along.
So please,
no matter where you are,
if you're in Connecticut,
if you're in Long Island,
New Jersey,
I even hear we get
to Pennsylvania sometimes,
212-279-3400.
Let's light up those phones.
Light up the phones
and bring in
some pledges here.
Three books
for $100
or a subscription
to 2600,
the Hacker Quarterly
and a T-shirt
for $50.
It's not a bad thing
to get for
just picking up
the phone
and making a pledge.
And we did take Visa
and MasterCard
so you can spread
this out for
however long
that they'll let you
spread it out for.
It's really up to you
how you want to do this.
It's 212-279-3400.
You know,
we seem to have,
I don't know,
do we have phone calls
online?
Because I see four lights
lit up there
but I see zero lights
lit up over there
so it's possible.
Now I see another light
lit up.
I think we have
conflicting systems here
because I see
some pledge lines
and I'm not sure
what exactly that means.
Maybe somebody can
tell me if we are
getting calls or not.
Well, we must be
because that number
keeps going up.
We're up to 250 now
which is really good.
It's good to know
people are out there
and it's really heartening
to be able to
expand the show,
reach out to people
beyond the New York
metropolitan area
as we've done
in the past couple of weeks.
What we have planned
in weeks ahead
is to continue doing this
to improve the way
things sound
over the internet
so that people
on this radio program
can talk to people
in other parts
of the world,
literally,
people in Japan,
England, Brazil,
all those people
that have called up
and listened to the radio program
at some point or another
over the internet
will be able to
take part in things,
will be able to get
something out of
those people
as far as how
their particular
phone systems work,
about what hackers
are like in that
particular country
but the only way
we can do that
is through a place
like this.
A 50,000 watt radio
station in the middle
of New York City
is a pretty good start.
We need you to help
keep the momentum up.
212-279-3400.
Think of it as
an investment,
a way of voting
to continue
with what we are doing.
If you think
it's a good idea,
if you think
what we've done so far
has helped out
in any way,
then please call up,
pledge what you can afford.
212-279-3400.
We don't want anybody
to call up
and go into bankruptcy
as a result
but if you can manage
to pledge
whatever it is
that you feel
you can pledge,
then by all means
please do that.
212-279-3400.
You see every little bit,
we're up to 300 now.
This is coming from
people pledging
small amounts,
$25, $50,
whatever it is
they can afford
but by adding up,
that's how it all
makes a difference.
212-279-3400.
We have Roman Kazan here.
Roman, how you doing?
Hello there.
How you doing?
You sound like a recording
when you say it that way.
Oh, really?
Now, okay,
he's here live in the studio
and Roman, of course,
is the owner
slash operator
of escape.com
which is
an internet service provider
and it's been around
for how many years now?
It's on its fourth year.
Fourth year.
I remember when we
interviewed you
when you were starting out
and that's come
a long way since then,
hasn't it?
Right, four years
as an internet access provider
as a bulletin board
since 1987.
Wow.
Now, the bulletin board
is totally different
than the internet.
That's right.
I mean, you weren't connected
to the internet at all.
It's just basically people...
It's communications.
Yeah, it was the beginning.
People calling up
one line at a time.
Actually, you probably
had more than one line.
Yeah, I did.
How many lines did you have?
The maximum I had was five.
Five lines.
And that was a big thing
back then.
And now how many lines?
We have over 200 lines.
Wow.
Are you experiencing
the same kind of problems
AOL's experiencing?
Well, it depends
on the weather.
It depends on many things.
Uh-huh.
Most internet service providers
are the busiest
from 10 o'clock at night
till midnight.
Uh-huh.
And we don't experience
too many business signals.
You might want to give it a try.
But now, what escape.com
has done that AOL
has just almost,
I guess, a few weeks ago
decided to try
with disastrous results
is unlimited amount
of time online.
Right.
We had the same rates
for the last four years.
Uh-huh.
We've never really
lowered our rates.
We had yearly promotions.
Uh-huh.
But we had 1995
for unlimited usage,
complete internet access,
a Unix shell account,
Uh-huh.
And a personal web page
of 10 megabytes
with full CGI access.
AOL still doesn't do all that.
Wow.
And from what I understand,
from what people
have been telling me,
it's very, very difficult
to get through to AOL now
because of them,
I guess,
improving their rate structure.
But is it really an improvement
if nobody can get through?
That's the question
that I think a lot of people
are asking.
And the other thing
which I've heard about
for many years, actually,
is the difficulty.
You know, you get those
free AOL discs and CDs
and things in the mail,
and when you want to,
you know, try it out,
okay, great, you try it out,
but you gotta, you know,
sometimes you decide,
it's not for me.
I want to cancel this.
Now, I hear that people,
when they try to cancel this,
it's one of the most
traumatic experiences
of their lives.
I think you gotta cancel
with them online.
No, no.
I couldn't even get them
on the phone.
What I heard,
and I've heard this
from several people
because we printed
something about this,
if you try to cancel online,
they give you
an 800 number to call.
Are you serious?
Yeah, they give you
an 800 number to call,
so I've got an 800 number here.
Because I called
their 800 number,
and there's nowhere,
no menu option
for cancellation.
Maybe I had
the wrong 800 number.
Let's see if that's true.
Let's see if we can
get a phone line here.
Okay, we've got a phone line.
And we have an 800 number,
which is right here.
You can decode the tones.
More power to you.
Let's see what happens.
Thank you for calling
America Online.
We value your membership,
and we're working
around the clock.
Now, remember,
all we want to do
is cancel our contract here.
Increasing customer support.
In the meantime,
here are a few tips
to get you online
as quickly and easily
as possible,
and to make your experience
there the best it can be.
Try signing on
during non-peak times.
That would be like
4 a.m. or something.
1-888-265-6387
or 1-888-AOL-NETS.
For progress updates
and hints to help you
get the most out of AOL,
use keyword insider.
If you have a touch-tone phone,
please press 1
for a list of member
service menu options.
Okay.
Let's hope that cancellation
is one of them.
With your quality control,
this call may be monitored
and recorded.
Please listen carefully,
then choose one.
This call may also be broadcast.
To order a free
America Online membership kit,
upgrade to the latest version
of America Online software,
or to learn more
about America's most popular
and exciting online service,
press 1.
If you're new
to the America Online community
and need help getting started
on your adventure
into cyberspace,
press 2.
For billing,
refund,
or credit information,
or to reactivate
a canceled account,
please have the last
four digits
of your credit card
or checking account number
ready and press 3.
To cancel your account,
press 4.
That's it.
That's the one.
Okay.
Let's see how long this takes.
Do we get music?
Thank you for holding
while we connect your call.
Okay.
Now, we've never done this before,
so in all fairness,
this might only take a minute.
That's right.
But I've heard
that it takes a very long time.
Thank you for calling
America Online.
This is Cindy.
May I have your telephone number
with your area code first?
Uh, yes.
I'm just calling.
I want to know,
can I cancel my account
by talking to you?
Yes.
Okay.
And it would be that
I wouldn't have to wait any longer?
No.
Okay.
I was just testing
the amount of time.
It was actually quite fast.
Oh, okay.
Have you improved recently?
Yes, we have.
Ah, well, congratulations.
Oh, thank you.
All right.
Well, uh, good luck.
Oh, thanks.
Good night.
Good night.
Well, you know,
that just goes to show
that nothing here is staged, okay?
It would have definitely
suited our purposes
to have this take the full hour
that's left in the show
and be on hold the whole time
and not be able to cancel.
But as we have just demonstrated,
they are getting better.
You can cancel
within a couple of minutes.
It took a little longer
than I would have liked it to.
But not having an AOL account,
I couldn't cancel it,
so I had to stop right there.
All right.
So let's, um,
let's get back
to your particular, uh, service.
We're not here
just to bash AOL
and, and, and the reason
we, we talk so critically
of AOL
is because it kind of
represents, um,
charging into something
without really thinking
about what it is
that you are doing.
and that's, that's, that's kind
of what we see here
where a company has
a 35 to 1 ratio
with, um, with, um,
users to modems
or modems to users, actually.
Um, actually, no,
it would be 35 users
per modem.
Wow.
Yes, that's what AOL...
We have like a 1 to 6 ratio.
1 to 6, yeah.
That's, I think that's about
what most internet service providers
have 10 or less, uh, per modem.
But AOL, it's estimated
to be about 35.
That's why there's
such a problem there.
But regardless, you know,
even with all that,
I mean, it's good
that they, they've gone
to a, um, a system
where, uh, you can stay on
for as long as you want,
but they weren't prepared
technically to do this.
Uh, they have a lot
of growing to do.
And the thing is,
there are internet service providers
like yourself
that have been around
that have started up
from virtually nothing
and, um, and,
and built the entire thing
themselves.
Which would you rather support?
Would you rather support
something that comes
from individuals
or something that's big,
corporate,
and charging around blindly
and knocking things over
as they learn
how things really work?
That's, uh,
that's the kind of thing
that we stress here
on this radio program
is, uh, to think
before you do things
like that, to, to know
what the net is all about.
And I think, um,
internet service providers
such as yourself
have done just that.
And that's why, uh,
in conjunction with Escape,
we're offering a special
premium tonight
for people who call up.
And that is a, um, um,
a year of Escape
for a pledge of $150,
which I believe is about
what it would cost anyway.
That's a very good price.
We just actually have
a special going for $150,
which is like $12.50
per month.
So we're competing with you.
Oh, yeah.
With your own service.
Okay, so, uh,
it's, it's, um,
tonight only, obviously,
because this is the only
night that we're on.
But if you pledge $150,
you get a year of the internet,
you don't get the
baby signals.
How many do you have over there?
Uh, I don't know.
How many do you give us?
I don't know.
Let's see how far
we can go with this.
Okay, well, we'll, we'll, uh,
you know, we'll, we'll try
and, uh, and do as much
as we can.
But you gotta call quickly
because obviously
the, the amounts are limited.
In fact, you might want
to run into the tally room
and stop them, you know,
from answering all the phones.
Well, if the tally room
could hear us, let us know
how many people once we
get over 10.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So that's, uh, that's a lot,
you know, that really is.
And if, uh, if 10 people
call up and get the internet
for a year, you know,
and this is really a good
deal for $150.
Think about that.
10 times $150.
What, what is that?
$1,150 bucks.
Right there.
That's great for the show.
Yeah, that's great for the
station.
That's great for all of us.
And it's, it's great for you
to, to be introduced
to the internet.
Now, let's say somebody
is out there and they've,
they've never used the net
before and they have
the bare minimal setup.
What's, what's like the,
the least they could
possibly have to get
connected to the net
using escape?
They can use a 386.
Actually, they could even
use a 286 or even an XT,
but they will not,
they will not see graphics.
If they want full graphical
web browser and so forth,
the minimum I would say
is a 386 with 4 megs RAM
and a 9600 watt modem
if you want a decent speed.
What if they just want
to check mail and don't
even want that?
Check mail, they don't need,
they just need a terminal.
They don't even need a computer.
They can use an old XT,
they can use a terminal
they find in the trash
at a school.
They can use anything.
What's the slowest
modem speed you support?
We support, I believe,
what is it, 150 watt
or 300 watt?
150?
Oh, that'd be great.
If someone out there
has that kind of
ancient equipment,
it's probably harder
to get that than it is
to get a 288.
What's, what's the highest
you support?
Our highest is 33.6
and as soon as 56 kilobits
becomes a standard,
we'll be supporting
that as well.
That's great.
We also, actually,
we do support ISDN
at 128 kilobits.
So, as every new bit
of technology comes out,
you've got a way
of dealing with it.
As long as it's something
that everyone's using
and it's easy to,
for us to upgrade,
yes, we're always
keeping our mind to it.
212-279-3400
and that's your phone
going there.
That's right.
Probably your sales manager
saying, are you crazy?
You can't give all this
away on the radio?
Well, we're doing it anyway.
Let me turn you on
your microphone
while you're talking
to that person there.
212-279-3400.
We've broken the 1,000 mark,
which is great.
I don't know how many
of these escape accounts
we have left, though.
So, if, if,
someone from the Tally room
should just come in here
screaming wildly
when we've reached 10,
that way we'll stop.
And if, if,
since that has not yet happened,
you can assume that means
that there are some available.
212-279-3400
for a pledge of $150.
Remember, you can,
you can charge that
on, um,
on Visa and MasterCard.
And, you know,
I'm not sure if we take
American Express here.
We just might.
I think we do.
Do we?
Okay, it says it on the thing.
So if it says it on the thing,
that means we must take it.
Uh, 212-279-3400.
So, you can charge this
on your credit card
and pay them, what,
like a dollar a month
for, like, the next 30 years
if you want to do it that way.
That's, uh,
that's perfectly okay.
We don't care.
Um, 212-279-3400
a pledge of $150
gets you a year
of unlimited internet access.
Now, you know,
if, if, if you're a real,
you know, uh, wise guy,
you can, like,
call up tomorrow
or whenever it is
that the account gets activated
and not hang up
for another year.
Now, you know,
it's not really nice
to do that if you don't use it,
but theoretically...
Well, if you're not doing,
if you're not doing anything
for 15 minutes on our service,
it will knock you off.
Right, but people write
these little programs
that do things, right?
Yes, unfortunately,
there's people who have
caught that stayed on
for three, four,
even a week.
Uh-huh.
Three, four days or a week
and it's, it's,
well, what can I do?
Well, you know,
it's, it's a finite number
of resources, obviously,
but, uh, you know,
the thing is,
the service is there
when you need it
and how would you compare
Escape to something like AOL?
AOL is very graphically intensive,
but, uh...
Well, Escape is also
very graphically intensive
if you have the correct software
and will help you do that.
It also provides
complete internet access,
meaning you can use
any software that's on the,
you know, in the market
or anything that's free.
You can even play
multi-user games
like Doom and, um,
other, like Quake
and there's some
Hexen 2 coming out,
which I don't think
you can play on America Online.
In addition,
I've heard complaints
recently about America Online
bugging the user
every 45 minutes,
telling them,
you know you've been using
the service for 45 minutes.
Really?
So if they are able
to get other software working,
it's going to interrupt it.
Uh-huh.
That's, that's,
that's annoying.
Well, of course,
you can also just go on IRC
and meet other people.
There's, there's really no limit
to the things you can do
with the internet
and your site is
really the internet.
AOL is sort of,
you know,
it's similar to the internet.
They kind of connect,
but you don't really do
internet type things.
We've been,
we've been providing
internet access
before America Online
is providing email access
to the internet.
Uh-huh.
That's, that's, uh,
that's quite a statement
right there.
Now, again,
we're not here to bash AOL,
but AOL is the largest,
the biggest,
and the most in the news
recently,
so we need to be able
to, to, um,
I guess,
establish a point
of reference someplace.
People there might be familiar
with what America Online
is all about.
Well, this is what
alternative providers
are like, um,
small, what would you call
a mom-and-pop operation?
I don't like that name.
I don't like the name either,
but that's really,
you know,
that's a good way
of, of, of describing
what it's all about
because it's, uh,
it's run by human beings,
not run by corporate entities.
And I think a lot
of our listeners realize
that and appreciate that,
and I think that's something
that, uh,
that we do need to stress,
is that escape is run
by human beings
and you can, you know,
you can talk to them,
they can help you.
What, what kinds of things
do people ask for
as far as help?
Everything,
from how to connect
the modem to their computer
to, uh,
how to turn their computer on
to the most, uh,
technical questions as well.
Uh-huh.
Wow.
Well, the reason escape
actually went up
was because I enjoyed
using the internet
and I wanted to share it
with a lot of other people.
There weren't too many
providers in the New York City area
and I thought, uh,
providing internet access
at a low cost
was an excellent idea
because I would like
a service like that
and I'm sure
everyone else
would have loved it.
Uh-huh.
And how many other, um,
services would you say
are around in New York City
right now?
Um, when we started
there was about five.
Now I would say
there's about 80.
80?
A lot of them,
a lot of them are not
based in New York City.
A lot of them are based
in other states
and they happen to open up
a number in New York City.
80?
8-0?
80.
That's amazing.
And a year ago,
how many were there?
I would say at least 40
and about three.
So it's not slowing down.
It's, it just keeps
growing and growing.
Yeah, a lot of the newer ones
that are opening up
are closing down quickly.
And why is that?
Because they got into it
too late?
That's right.
Uh-huh.
Wow.
So, now you've been
into this for four years
and before that,
of course,
you were into
the whole bulletin board scene.
Mm-hmm.
Where do you see things going
in the next, say,
five or ten years?
I have no idea.
That's something
we're just going to have
to sit back and watch.
Uh-huh.
What kinds of things
are you getting involved in
that are new on the horizon?
Well, I hope that
a real community,
you know,
I think the internet recently
has lost a lot of the community
because all the new people
getting up on the internet
are just going web browsing,
which is like reading magazines,
not really being interactive
with each other.
And I think in some way
to form a community online
would be a great thing.
And I think that's what
will happen very soon.
Well, yeah, I suppose.
A larger community than IRC.
Uh-huh.
Where an average person
can use it.
Uh-huh.
Right now, IRC is...
I think communication
is the key
because you see communication
on Usenet,
you see communication
on the web,
you see communication
on IRC and through email.
That's right.
It's something that people
really have never had before
to this degree.
And a lot of newcomers
don't even know
it exists on the internet.
They just think the web
is, that's all it is.
Just the web.
I'm told that Bernie S
might be with us.
Is Bernie S with us?
Hello?
Yes.
Is this Bernie?
Hello?
Yes.
I guess this is not Bernie.
Is Bernie there?
Yeah, just a minute.
Okay.
All right.
I guess that's Bernie's secretary.
Hello.
Bernie.
Hey.
So you have a secretary now,
huh?
You're moving up in the world.
Moving up.
That's pretty good.
We were just chatting here
with Roman about the future
of the internet
and why people
should call up
and pledge
to get one of his
escape accounts
for a full year.
Wow, what a deal.
Yes.
Do you want to try
to talk us out of it?
Nah.
It's a good idea then,
isn't it?
I think so, sure.
You're involved in the net
now, aren't you?
I am.
Yeah.
What do you think
of what's happened
since the two years
and since when you're
probably how it began?
I was kind of
out of commission
during the big net explosion.
I was pretty astonished
when I got out
to see how much
the internet
had become popular.
But not too surprised.
I knew it was going
to get big.
I didn't think it would
become as commercial
as it's become.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, it certainly has.
Every business in the world
seems to be involved
in it now.
I mean,
everybody's got webpages.
Everybody.
I mean,
you just see it
all over the place.
And I wonder
what percentage of people
actually know
what that means.
You know,
they see like,
you know,
www.cbs.com
after every program now.
How many people
actually know
how to connect to that?
I never imagined
that I'd see billboards
on the side of highways
with just URLs.
Uh-huh.
That still surprises me.
Yeah, it does.
And for those people
out there that have
never, ever done this before,
I think this is
a great time to start.
It's not too late.
You haven't missed the boat.
And I think by calling up now
and pledging
and becoming a part of this,
it's a golden opportunity
for you to learn something new
and to support the radio station
at the same time.
We're not trying to
pull the wool over your eyes
and sell you something.
It's not some infomercial
that you watch
on some bizarre channel
late at night.
We're real people here,
much like yourself,
and we just want to keep
this radio station going
and build the net
into something
that we all can appreciate.
I think your program
is probably one of the,
one of the few programs
out there
that avoids the hype
or cuts through the hype
and enlightens people
as to really what's going on
out there
rather than just all the,
as I said,
all the hype
that's being promoted everywhere.
That's right.
That's right.
And the reason why
we can do this without hype
is because we don't
have commercials.
It's very simple.
You know,
if you have commercials,
then you've got to deal
with the commercial entities.
And right now,
the only entities
we have to deal with
are our listeners.
You know,
and that's,
we can be very happy
with that kind of an arrangement
because we started
as listeners ourselves.
In fact,
listeners out there
one day may be programming
this radio station.
No other radio station
in New York City
works that way.
Stations are always changing,
format being sold.
And now,
with FCC deregulation,
a single company,
a single corporation
can own,
I guess,
up to six,
maybe even more radio stations
in the same city.
You know?
I mean,
a lot of people don't know this,
but what was it,
Hot 97 and Kiss FM,
they're owned by the same people?
Did you know that?
No.
They compete with each other,
yet they're owned
by the same people.
Do you know,
WINS and WCBS,
the two all-news stations,
they're both owned
by Westinghouse.
Explain that to me.
That kind of reminds me
of the electronic stores
throughout the city.
They're all owned
almost by the same person.
Yeah,
you know,
Warner Brothers.
Warner Brothers
is this huge company,
and they have
all these different,
I guess,
factions within
that are competing
with each other.
The Warner Brothers network
competes with other
Warner Brothers distribution
on television.
And, you know,
I was visiting somebody once
and there was some sort
of a TV studio
in the time,
Warner Building,
where they created news
and did all kinds
of actualities
for TV stations.
Well,
one day they realized,
hey,
you know,
we took over CNN.
We don't have to do this anymore
because we're just sort of
wasting our time.
So they just closed down
an entire floor
after they realized
that they were just
competing with each other.
And I imagine such things
happen quite a lot
in the corporate world
where all this money
and time and energy
are just wasted.
And, you know,
nothing is really said
in the end.
Nothing,
nobody is offended.
Nobody is,
you know,
I don't know.
It's a big waste
and it's an awful shame.
This is a way
that you can strike out
and make a difference
and just support something
that is different.
For years,
the FCC
had rules
preventing,
you know,
any one entity
from owning
too many media outlets
in any given market
to ensure
that there was
a diversity
of viewpoint.
And that's
totally gone out
the window now
with this Communications Act
in 1995,
especially when it comes
to reporting
about legislation
that affects
all of us,
especially legislation
pertaining to Internet
and other communications
technologies.
And I think
Off the Hook
is probably
one of the best sources
for information
about that.
It's interesting
how things like this
get started.
I mean,
we started out
with the magazine
2600 back in 1984
just because it was
something we wanted
to do.
The same thing
with the radio program
back in,
I think,
1990,
1989.
It was a way
of communicating
information.
After a bit
of time,
though,
you realize
the importance
of doing this,
the need
for doing this,
and the people
you can help
by providing
this particular
avenue of communication.
Now,
Bernie,
you've been through
hell in the last
couple of years,
and I know
that a lot of
BAI listeners
felt like they
went through hell
with you.
We would not
have been able
to share that
experience.
We would not
have been able
to share
fiber optics experience
a couple of years
earlier were it
not for this
facility being here
allowing us
to talk about
these issues
and communicate
freely.
I hate to think
of what might
lie ahead,
and no doubt
there's bad
as well as good,
but one thing
is for sure,
we need this place.
We need your
support to keep
this place here.
212-279-3400.
I felt like
your station
and this program
in particular
really kept me
alive in a lot
of ways,
at least mentally
and spiritually
during my ordeal
in the U.S.
criminal justice
system over the
past couple of
years,
and it really
kept me going
knowing that
there were a lot
of people out
there that
supported me,
and I don't
know how I
would have ended
up if it weren't
for that,
but I don't
think I would
have come out
as well as I
did in the end.
It makes all
the difference
in the world,
and of course
I can't speak
personally from
this,
but from what
people have
told me,
when you are
locked up,
when you're
in prison,
just to know
that there are
people out there
that care,
that are listening,
that are writing
to you,
that just are
keeping track
of what
happened to
you.
When you
were attacked
in prison
last fall,
the reaction
here was swift,
and it was
strong,
and I think
that's really
what started
to make the
difference when
people began
to get fed up
and say no
more of this.
I shudder to
think how many
people are in
situations like
that where
things happen
to them and
nobody hears
about it.
That's right.
I don't think
my case was
unique from
the condition
standpoint and
from the abuse
of rights in
the system,
standpoint.
I think my
case was
unique from
a legal
standpoint from
what the
statute that I
was charged
with.
Aside from
that, I
didn't feel
that I was
being treated
much differently
than a lot
of other
people who
didn't have
the resources
that I happen
to have by
being in touch
with your
program.
I feel sorry
for all of
them.
Fortunately,
there aren't
enough radio
stations out
there to
shed light on
all the abuses
that are going
on.
We're trying to
address that as
well by increasing
our presence on
the net.
And while it's
true...
And while it's
true...
And while it's
true...
And while it's


No, no, it's a big waste, and it's an awful shame.
This is a way that you can strike out and make a difference
and just support something that is different.
For years, the FCC had rules preventing any one entity
from owning too many media outlets in any given market
to ensure that there was a diversity of viewpoint,
and that's totally gone out the window now
with this Communications Act in 1995,
especially when it comes to reporting about legislation
that affects all of us,
especially legislation pertaining to Internet
and other communications technologies,
and I think Off the Hook is probably one of the best sources
for information about that.
It's interesting how things like this get started.
I mean, we started out with the magazine 2600 back in 1984
just because it was something we wanted to do.
The same thing with the radio program back in, I think, 1990, 1989.
It was a way of communicating information.
After a bit of time, though, you realize the importance of doing this,
the need for doing this, and the people you can help
by providing this particular avenue of communication.
Now, Bernie, you've been through hell in the last couple of years,
and I know that a lot of BAI listeners felt like they went through hell with you.
We would not have been able to share that experience.
We would not have been able to share fiber optics experience
a couple of years earlier were it not for this facility being here
allowing us to talk about these issues and communicate freely.
I hate to think of what might lie ahead,
and no doubt there's bad as well as good,
but one thing is for sure, we need this place.
Oh, yeah.
We need your support to keep this place here.
212-279-3400.
I felt like your station and this program in particular
really kept me alive in a lot of ways,
at least mentally and spiritually,
during my ordeal in the U.S. criminal justice system
over the past couple of years.
And it really kept me going,
knowing that there were a lot of people out there that supported me.
And I don't know how I would have ended up if it weren't for that,
but I don't think I would have come out as well as I did in the end.
It makes all the difference in the world.
Of course, I can't speak personally from this,
but from what people have told me,
when you are locked up, when you're in prison,
just to know that there are people out there
that care, that are listening, that are writing to you,
that just are keeping track of what happened to you.
When you were attacked in prison last fall,
the reaction here was swift and it was strong,
and I think that's really what started to make the difference
when people began to get fed up and say,
no more of this.
I shudder to think how many people are in situations like that
where things happen to them and nobody hears about it.
That's right.
I don't think my case was unique from the condition standpoint
and from the abuse of rights in the system standpoint.
I think my case was unique from a legal standpoint
from what the statute that I was charged with.
But aside from that,
I didn't feel that I was being treated much differently
than a lot of other people who didn't have the resources
that I happen to have by just being in touch with your program.
So I feel sorry for all of them.
Fortunately, there aren't enough radio stations out there
to shed light on all the abuses that are going on.
Well, you see, we're trying to address that as well
by increasing our presence on the net.
And while it's true that right now New York City
is the only place that can receive this radio program
on a regular basis and live,
we're trying to expand to the net
so that people in other parts of the country
and other parts of the world can also be a part of this.
And who knows?
It might wake some people up there
and we'll probably be involved in all kinds of struggles
and fights in various other parts of the world as well.
It's an exciting future that lies ahead.
One, not without danger,
but something that I think we're all going to remember
for a very long time.
I'm told that we have reached the 10 limit
for the escape accounts.
So that means that the escape accounts
are no longer available.
We've had enough people call up for those
and we want to thank those people very much
for calling and becoming a part of this.
Well, escape accounts are still available.
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean it that way.
I meant only on this radio program.
Yes, Roman, in fact, since you've been so generous
to give us these escape accounts for the radio program,
why don't you tell people who may have missed out
how they can get you, you know,
and get accounts directly through escape.
Right, for the same exact offer that you just heard on BAI,
we offer internet access,
which is complete internet access,
a Unix shell account, and a personal web page.
You can call area code 212,
telephone number 8888780.
888 is 0.
You like 8, don't you?
It's a lucky number, isn't it?
Uh-huh.
It's funny because you had the 888 exchange
before the 888 area code became the whole free number.
I have a really good story about that.
What's this?
We actually get America's Online cancel line
or technical support for their cancellation.
If they forget to dial a 1,
it hits escape once in a while.
Really?
And we've signed up quite a lot of America's Online users.
Oh, boy.
I like that.
It was totally coincidental.
You sort of hijacked the call there.
Actually, they kind of divert themselves to you,
so, yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.
But, yeah, that can happen.
And, wow, I've talked to very angry America Online users.
Very angry ones.
Well, you know, I heard this story
about some company called America Inline.
They're a bunch of, like, you know, skaters.
And, apparently, AT&T published their phone number
as belonging to America Online.
So they began getting all these phone calls.
And always the people would be very, very happy
to hear a human being.
They'd say, oh, thank God, I got a human.
And, of course, they had to say to them,
well, you see, this is America Inline.
We have nothing to do with America Online.
And then the spokesperson said,
and then the desperation came back.
Wow.
So, yes, getting through to a human being
can be a very long, drawn-out process
when you deal with the bigger players in this game.
The Internet is comprised of individuals, you know,
and we are individuals.
We're the ones that decide where it's going to go.
It's not decided by AT&T or MCI or AOL,
any of those, you know, three-letter entities.
It's you, me, all of us.
Same thing with this radio station.
In fact, the parallels between the Internet
and non-commercial radio are incredible, I think,
because both are obsessed with non-censorship,
with variety, with everybody having an equal say,
and with just not having enough hours in the day
to get everything out that you want to get out.
So I think what we have seen in the past ten years
with the development of the net is a very healthy thing,
and I think it's too late for big business,
for big government to control it,
to regulate it, to ruin it for the rest of us.
So I want to thank people like Roman.
I want to thank Roman.
You're welcome.
And everybody who has taken a part in building the net
for what it is now.
We have a lot of work ahead of us,
but it's been a fun ride so far.
Bernie, what's your involvement with the net right now?
I've been doing work for an Internet service provider
in Delaware,
and also do some freelance consulting,
doing connectivity between lands
and Internet service providers.
So it keeps me busy.
Wow.
Hey, we're almost at the magic number of $2,600.
We're up to $2,375, which is great.
That's a really good figure.
I'm very happy to see that.
But only a couple hundred bucks more,
and we'll be at the $2,600 mark,
which I think is a very special milestone for us.
You know, even though I can't receive your program
in Philadelphia, where I'm calling from,
I'd like to pledge $50 anyway.
You're going to pledge money?
You just got out of prison, Bernie.
Yeah, well...
You need your funds to get bought.
I can't put a dollar-figure amount
on the amount of moral support
and letters from people that kept me going.
So $50 is a small token of thanks.
So it's worth it.
We want to thank you for all the inspiration
that has come our way from you.
Because, I mean, you've been through more
than I think most of us will ever be through,
and yet somehow you've managed to stay
the same person that you always were.
I think I came out better, actually.
Yeah, you know, I've said the same thing
about Fiber, too, that he's experienced
a lot of really bad things,
but somehow it strengthens your character.
And I'm not saying everybody should go to prison.
I'm saying that they can try and hurt us,
but in the end, we usually come out stronger
because of the support network
that we have developed.
And I think that applies to BAI.
I think that applies to 2600
and to the hacker community.
And we're over 2600, 2625.
Congratulations, everybody.
All right, we want to thank these people.
I just want to make sure that...
Okay, I want to thank David from New York.
We want to thank...
Well, just Initial A from Flushing.
See, I don't think I'm supposed to read the last name.
I don't think I'm supposed to do that.
If I'm wrong about that,
someone will run in and tell me,
but yeah, I'm not going to read the last name
because some of these names are pretty unique.
And I'm not sure.
Maybe people want their last name read,
but maybe they don't.
Okay, I want to thank Aaron from Flushing.
Thanks very much for your generous contribution there.
Barry from Howard Beach.
David from Brooklyn.
Tim from Staten Island.
I guess that means Staten Island, right?
Yeah.
That or a place called Staten Island.
Tim from Staten Island.
Thank you very much for your pledge.
Joseph from Brooklyn.
Mario from the Bronx.
Thank you very much for your very generous donation there.
This is interesting.
Jeffrey from Bolton Landing, New York.
Where is Bolton Landing?
That's an interesting...
That's a very interesting place.
It's area code 518.
Area code 518.
That is amazing.
Keith from Warwich, New York.
Warwich, New York.
Another interesting place.
Actually, you know what?
This is wrong.
It's Warwich, New Jersey because it's area code 908.
No, you know what?
It's...
That's a work number.
Okay, it's Warwich, New York because it's area code 914.
Okay, that's interesting too.
I'm learning a lot about geography here.
Paul from Morris Plains, New Jersey.
Thank you very much for your pledge.
Manoush from New York.
Thank you very much.
Manoush pledge because, in quotes, Bernie S. is out.
Thank you very much.
That's a good reason to celebrate.
Hi, Manoush.
Yes.
First initial M, and last initial M as well from the Bronx.
We want to thank you very much for your pledge.
And, let's see, how do you say this?
Flavia?
Forgive me if I'm saying this wrong.
Flavia from Patterson, New Jersey.
Thank you very much for your pledge.
Mary from White Plains.
We want to thank you as well.
Patty from New York.
Thanks for your pledge for the books.
Edwin from New York.
Thank you for your pledge.
And, finally, James from Brooklyn.
We want to thank you for your generous donation.
And it's by no means over.
We have another 12 minutes left.
212-279-3400.
We don't have escape accounts anymore, but we do have, for a $50 pledge,
a subscription to 2600 Magazine, The Hacker Quarterly.
It's been coming out since 1984.
And bringing you all kinds of news of hacker life.
Things like the Bernie S. story, the Kevin Mitnick story.
And the newest in technology, the newest security holes, phone tricks, things like that.
You'll get a year of that, plus you'll get a 2600 T-shirt, which you can wear proudly to work, to school, to the supermarket.
You know, you get all kinds of interesting comments from people when you wear the shirt.
And, you know, not all the comments are hostile, either.
A lot of them are very friendly.
In fact, you meet people this way.
You know, I've worn my 2600 shirt many times, and people have started conversations.
It's kind of interesting to see how many people know about hackers.
And to hear the kinds of, I guess, impressions they have of hackers.
And you get into all these conversations just by wearing a shirt.
I know people have gotten married because of this shirt.
It's happened.
Yeah, people have met with this shirt on and have really, like, you know, opened up a channel of communication like you would not believe.
So, it's not just a shirt, okay?
It could be your future.
All right.
And for a $50 pledge, it's not a bad deal, is it?
212-279-3400.
We also have the three books.
The two John Lippman books, the brand new one, The Watchman, the twisted, what was it again?
The Twisted Life and Crimes of Serial Hacker Kevin Polson.
You weren't here for this, Bernie, but there's a new book out all about Kevin Polson.
And then we have The Fugitive Game, online with Kevin Mitnick, the updated version, the brand new paperback edition that has just come out, updating everybody on what has happened to Kevin over the past year.
And in addition to that, the Katie Hefner book, where wizards stay up late about the beginnings of the net and how it all began and what it's all about.
But you'll get all that for a pledge of $100.
212-279-3400 is our phone number.
We have a few of everything left, and we only have about 10 minutes left.
So, please, if you're going to call up, call up now.
And I realize now that the phone lines are different.
That the lines I was looking at and saying there were no calls on the line before, that's not valid.
It's the one in front of me that's valid.
And I can see now there's four people online, which is really pretty good.
And I hope to hear from more.
Now, in case you're tuning in for the special three-hour program, you're going to be disappointed because we only have about 10 minutes left.
It turns out that we're going to be broadcasting the president's speech.
And wasn't there an OJ verdict due today or something?
I heard they reached a verdict, and they were going to announce it.
And, of course, being here in this studio, I have no idea what's going on outside in the real world.
Bernie, maybe you know.
Well, I think they're waiting for the Goldman family to show up in court so they can announce the verdict.
So it hasn't been announced yet.
They actually wait for people to show up before they do this thing?
Yeah, they want to make it a big production, I guess.
Well, I'm very curious about this.
How are they going to tie it in?
I mean, they've got their president giving his speech at 9.
Are they going to interrupt the presidential speech with a news bulletin saying they're reaching a verdict?
Is the jury going to wait for the president to stop speaking?
Are they going to watch the president speaking in the courtroom?
I'm sure this bad timing is making news directors tear their hair out.
News directors must be livid.
Well, actually, we have news directors here, so who knows?
What do we have?
We've got what could be a late-breaking news bulletin.
Okay, here we go.
Ready?
A court spokeswoman says the verdict in the OJ Simpson trial will be read as soon as the families can reach the courtroom.
That was anticlimactic.
Yes, well, I played it out for the most I could.
Okay.
So, I don't know what's going to happen.
It's going to be an interesting night, that's for sure.
But you can make it even more memorable by making it the night that you pledge support to WBAI and become part of the off-the-hook family.
That's right.
We're all a big family here.
212-279-3400 is our phone number.
Up to $2,800.
We'd like to break $3,000 in the next, I guess, eight minutes.
And is that fiber optic?
Yes, it is.
You finally dropped in on us, huh?
Nice of you to stop by.
Thank you.
What's going on out there?
Oh, we had a very interesting meeting at Omnipoint Communications in New Jersey.
You didn't hear me say that they sucked before.
And I said, this is a radio station where I can do that, okay?
I can, like, say a big company sucks, and because they're not...
And I said, you know, you would defend them and say they don't suck, but we can have a conversation like that because we don't have sponsors.
Imagine if Omnipoint was our sponsor and I said they sucked.
That would be terrible.
I'd be fired, all right?
We'd lose them as sponsors.
We'd lose money.
There'd be memos sent out.
There'd be all kinds.
There'd be meetings, executive meetings, meetings upstairs, meetings downstairs, meetings out on the street.
The listeners would suffer.
Everybody would suffer.
Well, I'd take personal offense.
Because I made one little remark about how their service is terrible, you know?
And that's just my opinion.
You know, I can express my opinion.
That's the beauty of non-commercial radio.
Now, I've said enough bad things about them.
Why don't you say something good about them?
Okay.
I'd take personal offense to that, being that I am a satisfied subscriber.
And the president, whom we met with today, is a nice guy.
He met the president.
He's not listening right now.
He's a good guy.
He's not listening.
Tell me he's not listening.
He might be.
Oh, no.
I don't think we told him when the show was on.
We told him that we did the show.
Yeah.
And that we talked about them all the time.
You certainly didn't say what station you were on.
No, we said the station.
I think we forgot to tell him that it was tonight.
Okay.
Well, maybe that was a good thing.
But, no, you know, I don't say it's going to suck for all time.
I say it sucks right now because I don't think the rates are cheap enough.
What are you paying 60 cents a minute?
It was just lowered.
It was.
Yeah.
What, the presidential decree today?
To 49 cents.
Presidential decree.
Wow.
What did he just hammer on the desk and say, you shall not pay?
I told him that and he said that he didn't think the prepay rates were fair.
And they had lowered them to 49 cents instead of 60.
That's still too much.
That's still more than regular cellular phones.
This is true.
Well, they're keeping it at 25 cents for the regular paying customers.
Uh-huh.
Which I could ultimately get converted to once they see that I'm an honest paying customer.
Right.
But, um, some news is within the next week they'll be activating their SS7 connections to the local phone companies.
So, we will have caller ID passed from 9X to us and vice versa.
And, um, the new Ericsson phones, which he had one of.
And he gave me one of these cool antennas.
We have $50 away from $3,000.
212, 279, 3400.
See this?
What is that?
It's so small you can barely see it.
You're always complaining about this big, goofy antenna.
No, actually, that's the one thing I never complained about.
Really?
I never complained about your big, goofy antenna.
Well, if you had one of these phones, you'd be complaining about the big, goofy antenna.
Uh-huh.
Well...
That's a little chubby antenna.
Yeah, it's a nice little chubby antenna that you could use.
The only difference is that because of its small size, you lose two decibels of, uh, of signal.
I was going to say you could lose the antenna, too.
No.
You could swallow that thing.
You do lose two decibels of signal.
So, uh, like on a day like today where it's really horrible weather, it's not the best idea to use that antenna.
Really?
Because you're not going to get the greatest signal quality.
Uh-huh.
So, now I have both...
Is the signal quality going to improve over the years?
I mean, is it always going to be like this where...
Well, definitely improve.
Uh-huh.
What's going to make it improve?
They'll be installing more and more base stations as time goes by.
Uh-huh.
Did the president mention...
And what they're actively doing every day.
Did the president mention if he was expanding Omnipoint into any other markets like Philadelphia, perhaps?
You don't have it down there, do you?
No.
No, they have it in Bethlehem.
Well, that's where I spent some unfortunate time last year, but...
So, if you were in prison now, you could use a GSM phone.
That's really ironic.
Why don't they target Philadelphia?
What's so great about Bethlehem?
I don't mean to offend anybody.
I'm saying Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
What's so great about that?
Well, it's a small town.
I guess maybe they're test marketing it.
I don't know.
It could be, because Omnipoint themselves has an office in Bethlehem.
They have set up numerous roaming agreements in various other places.
They have a roaming agreement now with Pacific Bell Mobile Systems, which covers the San Diego area.
They have a roaming agreement with parts of Bell South and with some other company whose name I forget in the Southwest.
President Clinton's on the phone, and he wants us to move it along, because he's scheduled to be up next at 9.
So, yes, final remarks, everybody, because we have the president coming up.
Final remarks.
I understand the president will be announcing the O.J. verdict.
Will he?
At the beginning of his speech, yes.
Will he be using an Omnipoint phone?
I don't know.
I think he'll be delivering it from the air, just to be safe.
Bernie, I guess we'll be hearing from you in weeks ahead as we plan future things.
I want to thank you for calling us.
Thank you very much for your pledge.
Oh, you're welcome.
It's the least I could do.
Yes.
Well, I think you've done more than you definitely should do, and I'm glad that you inspired other listeners to call up as well.
So am I.
And just stay in touch with us.
We'll let people know what you're up to in the weeks and months ahead.
Thanks for your program.
It's great.
All right.
Take care, Bernie.
Bye-bye.
And, Roman, I want to thank you very much for your generous donation of escape accounts.
You're welcome.
Thanks for providing that service for everybody in New York.
Thanks for everyone who's listening who donated.
Yes.
I really appreciate it.
It made a big difference.
I really appreciate it to help the AI.
Yeah, our figure right now is 3,300, which is not bad at all.
Considering that we were on at a time when nobody knew we were on, and we were on for half the time we were supposed to be on, that's not bad.
Not bad at all.
Imagine if we had done the full three hours at the time we were supposed to be on.
Oh, we can only dream about that.
Okay.
We are out of time now.
The president is waiting, isn't he?
I have no idea.
I've got to find the president.
We've got to find the president's button here, which is someplace around here.
No, we're buttoning it.
All right.
Well, enough to talk about the president's button there.
Stay tuned to WBAI for the latest updates in the Clinton speech and also the LJ verdict.
And we'll be back again not next week, but in two weeks at our regular time of 8 p.m. with a regular program.
As regular as we can make it, I guess.
Thanks, everybody, for calling in.
Thanks very much for all your support and for helping out this radio station and just for being there.
This is Manuel Goldstein for Fiber Optic and Roman and Bernie and everybody else.
Good night.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Fondiddley Bom for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Fondiddley Bom!
Fondiddley Bom!
Fondiddley Bom!
Good evening and welcome to Pacifica Radio's live coverage of the State of the Union.
Which embodies it more, the president giving a speech before a joint session of Congress
or a nation awaiting a second verdict in the O.J. Simpson trial?
The president has already rescheduled his annual speech once,
so it wouldn't compete with the Miss USA beauty pageant.
This time, it seems that his moment in the spotlight is being preempted by a pageant of a different kind,
as most networks and viewers are more interested in the outcome of the wrongful death civil suit against O.J. Simpson
than they are in President Clinton's promises for the next four years.
I'm Amy Goodman, host of Pacifica Radio's daily political talk show called Democracy Now!,
and I'm joined by three guests.
I'm joined by Pacifica Network News commentator Saul Landau in the studios here in Washington,
Pacifica News Director Patricio Guadalupe,
and we're joined by Professor Ron Walters,
Professor of Afro-American Studies at the University of Maryland,
Senior Fellow at the Academy of Leadership.
...to escort the President of the United States into the chamber.
In the background, you hear Newt Gingrich,
the Speaker of the House.
The gentleman from Texas, Mr. DeLay.
The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Boehner.
The gentleman from California, Mr. Cox.
The gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. Dickey.
The gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. Hutchinson.
The gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Gephardt.
The gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Bonier.
The gentleman from California, Mr. Fazio.
The gentlewoman from Connecticut, Mrs. Connelly.
The gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. Greer.
That, again, is the Speaker of the House.
And just a few weeks ago, in this very place,
was a decision reached by the Congress,
and that was to reprimand House Speaker Newt Gingrich.
Now we hear Vice President Al Gore.
...the United States into the House chamber.
The Senator from Mississippi, Mr. Lott.
The Senator from Oklahoma, Mr. Nichols.
The Senator from Florida, Mr. Mack.
The Senator from Georgia, Mr. Coverdell.
The Senator from Idaho, Mr. Craig.
The Senator from Kentucky, Mr. McConnell.
Amy, I think this is going to be very interesting,
because President Clinton has promised that the American public,
whatever else they get in the next four years,
are going to get from him a good education.
And I think that's absolutely true.
They're going to see Class A lying
as they've never seen it before in American history.
Now, I'm not saying it's just the President's going to do it.
There's a lot of other gentlemen that have been...
You know, when they say the word gentlemen,
you know what they mean here.
How come there are no women yet that have been introduced?
Anyway, we're going to hear the President tonight.
And I hope that he doesn't complain about his...
Here he comes now.
Here he comes now.