And Mo Irwin for producing.
And all of you out there, if you want to get a tape
or you want to just, you know, become a supporter of We the People,
you can do so by calling 800-426-1112.
And if you're on the net, it's WTP.org.
Good night.
We'll be right back.
Where the time is 8 o'clock time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
Where we've experienced mechanical problems yet again.
Let's try fixing this some other way.
Ah.
The telephone keeps ringing.
So I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving.
Now I can't make a cost.
It couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would.
From Billy Bomber the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
From Billy Bomber.
No.
We'll be right back.
For all you people listening in real audio, this sounds really cool in stereo.
Too bad you can't appreciate it.
Anyway, the program is off the hook.
This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
Hi, Fiber.
How are you doing?
Oh, yes.
He's not here this week, is he?
See, we're in different studios, and that little light should not have been on.
The little light indicates that Fiber is here, and someone left the little light on.
So let me just...
There.
The light is now off.
Fiber is not here this week.
That's right.
He's away on assignment.
Yes, another assignment.
So while he may be back next week, we won't be back next week because we're preempted next week.
Yeah, pretty funny, huh?
So, but we will be back on a weird day in time because we're doing something very weird and strange.
We'll be giving you some details on that.
This is the last program before the Beyond Hope conference, which will be taking place August 8th, 9th, and 10th downtown in the Puck Building, corner of Houston and Lafayette.
And if you want to pre-register for that conference, well, you're too late.
You're way too late, in fact.
So you're just going to have to show up, hope for the best.
What's the Beyond Hope conference you might...
I've been seeing Beyond Hope stickers all over town.
I don't know what's up with that, but someone's going crazy.
Beyond Hope conference is a convergence of hackers from around the planet.
The first Hope conference, Hackers on Planet Earth, took place in 1994.
At the Hotel Pennsylvania, you take the first two letters of those words, it spells hope.
I'm told that was the only reason that place was chosen.
But we're hoping the Puck Building will be a little bit better.
It's basically a gathering of people of all kinds.
Computer hackers, phone freakers, radical thinkers of all sorts.
So BAI listeners definitely fit right in there.
And it should be making history of sorts.
Just to give you an idea of the things that we have.
We've got Bruce Schneier coming by to talk about cryptography in the real world.
From encryption, to digital signatures, to electronic commerce, to secure voting.
Cryptography has become the enabling technology that allows us to take existing business and social constructs and move them to computer networks.
But a lot of cryptography is bad.
And the problem with bad cryptography is that it looks just like good cryptography.
Most people cannot tell the difference.
Security is a chain.
Only as strong as the weakest link.
So, in this talk, Bruce Schneier will be taking a look at the future of cryptography.
The needs, the threats, the limits of technology, and the promise of the future.
Yeah, it's going to be pretty neat, pretty interesting stuff there.
That will be taking place, I believe, on Saturday.
The schedule of speakers has not yet been finalized.
But it will be pretty soon.
We'll also be featuring panels, including The Loft.
Remember Mudge from a few weeks ago where we lost contact and were talking via touchtones?
Yeah, well, that was a member of The Loft.
And you'll meet about four or five of them.
They'll be having a panel talking about their various projects.
Ira Winkler will be around talking about where hackers and criminals collide.
Something on the legal aspects of what we're all about.
Of course, we've got Brock Meeks giving a keynote address Saturday afternoon.
Saturday around noon, actually.
Hacking for the next century.
I asked him for a little description of what he was going to be talking about.
This is what he said.
In this age of heightened awareness about security and hacking, where have all the good hacks gone?
Too many are claiming the title, Hacker.
Or when they have no more than snot-nosed wannabe posers.
They are no more than that.
Of course, downright petty criminals, as was witnessed at DEF CON when people were trying
to pass counterfeit bills and bad counterfeit bills at that.
Let's get back to the basics of hacking.
I'll talk about where hackers have come from, where they've gone, which is pretty much downhill,
and where they should head into the new millennium.
Hey, you think that's a lot of fun.
Cheshire Catalyst of TAP fame is also going to be around.
He'll be discussing low-bandwidth access of the Internet.
He'll be demonstrating using simple text-only computer terminals and web browsers
to access information on the World Wide Web.
While you don't get all the graphics and whiz-bang, you can get basic information, download files,
images, and software for later perusal.
You don't need a Windows machine to do all this.
Webmasters will be given tips on making their pages more accessible to these users.
We're also going to have panels on social engineering, broadcasting, and the media.
We'll be doing some special things involving, quote-unquote, pirate radio.
Fiber Optic will be hosting a panel Saturday night on GSM phones.
I have a thing or two to say about GSM phones.
Actually, we've said quite a few things about them already.
We're also going to have a special hacker-prisoner panel.
And sort of apart from that, because we'll be talking with former hacker-prisoners,
but there's also going to be something involving Kevin Mitnick and his current case and where that stands.
We don't have all the details yet as to who exactly we'll be talking to on that,
but we will be talking to somebody.
That will be taking place on Sunday.
Also, there will be a 2600 panel, like there was last time,
where you can ask all kinds of questions and say whatever is on your mind regarding 2600 Magazine.
There'll be a MetroCard update on what's happening with MetroCard Gold
and integrating the buses and all kinds of weirdness like that.
And that's only a small part.
It's only a small part.
That's what we have written down.
There's a lot more that's in the planning stages.
In fact, it's going to be a real problem because we only have three days to do this.
Actually, more like two days because Friday is mostly set up.
And that's where people bring their computers, set up the huge network,
and we'll be doing some things involving testing out the equipment.
We might have some informal talks, but the actual panels begin Saturday at noon.
So if you are planning on coming down and you just want to be there for the essential parts,
we suggest being there around 10 a.m. on Saturday.
Unless you're already pre-registered, then you can just waltz right in.
But Saturday at 10 is when registration actually begins at the Puck Building,
the corner of Lafayette and Houston.
That's not this Saturday coming up, but next Saturday, August 9th.
And you can also register August 8th in the evening at the same place where we have the informal things going on.
Pam is here.
And Pam has been doing a great deal of organization.
In fact, I'm amazed you actually found time to go outside.
Well, you know, you need a little change of pace to stay sane.
Yeah, so I'm not sure what microphone you are.
Try this one.
Oh, hello.
I think we got you there.
So what's new in the world of volunteers?
Well, we're getting a tremendous response.
Thanks to everybody for reading the volunteer FAQ and not posting individual questions too much anymore
and filling out our volunteer registration form.
Yeah, it's not wasting a whole lot of our time because we have no time.
Yes, we have very little time.
I mean, time is just, it's incredible how fast time goes.
People are really volunteering to do almost anything.
We still need more volunteers for things like very short two-hour stints of selling soda,
helping collect trash.
We probably still need people to help out with registration and those kind of things.
So not just got jobs left.
Don't hesitate.
Right.
If you really want to get involved, come on, check out the website at www.hope.net.
There's a link right to the volunteer pages right off the front of the site.
I'm going to be selling soda.
I mean, I have no qualms about that.
Myself as well when I'm able to get away from registration and things are going smoothly.
And I expect plenty of help from everybody picking up trash for a couple minutes here or there,
making the rounds, you know.
Yeah.
I mean, it's fun.
It's that whole bonding Woodstock type of feeling that you get at something like this.
Exactly.
And what we hope to do is make history here because I think this is going to be the biggest
hacker event ever.
And the main reason for that is because we're linking up with another hacker conference at
exactly the same time in Holland using PictureTel, which allows us to, via ISDN, actually communicate
real-time video with these people.
And that's never been done before.
In fact, most hacker conferences that I've been to, in fact, I think all of them in the United
States, and this includes the first HALP conference, have had very shoddy networks, you know, where
we basically can never get out to the net and we can never actually maintain a connection
or do anything dependably.
I think that's going to change this time.
I think we actually have the makings of a real network and it's going to maybe work this
time.
We really look forward to that.
Of course, we need help to do this.
We need people to come and offer their expertise, bring interesting pieces of equipment, you know,
not just the newest bits of equipment, the most interesting, you know.
So, someone brings, you know, a Texas Instruments machine, people are going to be looking at
it and playing with it.
It's of interest to us.
We've had people send mail saying they want to hook their Newtons to the Ethernet.
Uh-huh.
You never know what will happen.
We can accommodate.
We can try anyway.
So, yeah.
I guess we're open for imagination.
And if you have ideas for things you'd like to do on stage two, it's not entirely too
late.
Technically, it is.
But we're being very flexible as far as that goes and we're trying to fit in as much as
we can.
And it's going to be rather hard to do, but we'll pull it off somehow.
Now, the thing with the radio, we're having a live radio show on Saturday night.
Slight time change.
We had said it was 6 to 8.
Actually, it's going to be 6.30 to 8.30.
And that'll allow us to scramble a little bit and set things up and do all kinds of
things like that.
So, 6.30 to 8.30, that'll be broadcast live on WBAI.
And if you're down there, you can be in the studio audience.
We've never had a studio audience before.
Well, what are we?
Well, you're not really an audience.
I guess we're not.
Well, the audience can't talk like you talk.
I mean, can you imagine?
We're going to have 500 people and we can't mic them all, you know.
Actually, though, we will be taking questions from the audience.
And I hope we can take phone calls, but I'm not certain about that yet.
And we'll have all kinds of surprise guests coming in.
And not to mention that it'll all be on Real Audio for everybody all over the place to hear.
Yes, Real Audio.
And I've heard rumors of the M-Bone, which is a whole other kettle of fish.
So, this could be the most covered hacker event, too, in addition to everything else.
All right, so that's pretty much everything as far as updates.
If people are interested in volunteering, what can they do?
They can visit the website at www.hope.net.
There's a link to the volunteer pages right off the front of the site.
I would like it if people would read through the volunteer fact before they just run over and sign up for jobs
so they understand what it involves.
And definitely, you know, you don't have to give us all of your time.
Give us a couple hours.
The benefits are good.
The friendship and fellowship should be enjoyable.
We take care of our own.
It should just be a hell of a lot of fun.
Yes.
So, we definitely need people.
We also are looking for people that might be able to help us drive around and get stuff
in case there's stuff we forgot or need to go run and pick up.
There will be stuff we forget.
We're planning on forgetting quite a bit, actually.
We've planned on, yeah.
I have lists of stuff to forget, actually.
I've seen that list.
It's pretty big.
It's frightening.
So, yeah, it's going to be an interesting experience.
So, do try to be around.
Even if you don't want to volunteer, if you just want to be a consumer
and just go there and take in everything, that's fine, too.
And bring your friends.
Bring your not-computer-literate friends.
You know, everybody's welcome.
It should be interesting.
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a conference run by hackers,
and it's a conference mostly for hackers,
but we are open to all kinds of people, as with this radio show.
We have a lot of non-hacker listeners who are just curious,
and that's a main part.
That's the main part of being a hacker is curiosity.
So, if you have that, you may not become a hacker,
but at least you can appreciate some of the things that we talk about here on this program
and what we'll be talking about at the conference.
So, if you have any questions, feel free to call us,
212-279-3400, to ask them in just a couple of minutes.
First, I have to go on my GSM phone frenzy, I guess.
That includes Omnipoint.
Too bad Fiber's not here to debate me on this.
But it's been an interesting week.
I went out to the island, actually,
to test the signal strength of Omnipoint out there.
And, you know, folks, it's really, it was better than I thought,
but it's really not as good as they say.
I mean, they say it's going to be covering all of Long Island in the summer of 1997.
You don't think so, do you?
No.
I don't think it's going to happen either.
Basically, I was driving on the expressway,
and I had my phone on, you know, just watching it to see what would happen.
And right, zap, there, at exit 32, it just cut off completely.
It just was no signal whatsoever.
So, I thought that was it.
You know, it's all over.
But, miraculously enough, one exit later, it came back.
A little feeble Omnipoint signal came back onto the phone,
and I had service.
Now, for some reason, I couldn't dial 611,
which is what you dial to get Omnipoint customer service.
It would say number error.
I kept trying it, and, you know, one time I did get through.
I don't know why I got through, but one time it worked.
All the other times it didn't work.
So, I have the feeling the system just isn't quite there yet.
They're starting to put it in.
It seems to cover most of Nassau on the expressway anyway.
I didn't get off the expressway,
so I'm not sure if it goes past, you know, past a few feet off there.
Now, in Suffolk County, this is the funny thing.
No signal whatsoever anyplace except when I passed by the Smithhaven Mall.
For some reason, they have one lone transmitter at the Smithhaven Mall,
and it was kind of cool, actually,
because I stayed on the island for a few days.
I would get up, and I'd go to the mall to check my messages.
The phone would turn on as soon as I got there,
and I could see who called me and called them back
and had a great time like that.
So, it kind of takes away the whole point of having a cordless phone,
some, you know, convenience, so I was kind of altering my life
to suit Omnipoint.
But I had a big problem with the phone today.
I mean, I was driving around.
I was in a traffic jam.
I was in a car with no radio, on my way here,
had an appointment with somebody that we had to do some production work,
and all of a sudden, I hit the traffic jam from hell.
You know those kinds where you're just like, you know,
you're driving, and all of a sudden, nobody's moving.
No one's moving at all.
Nobody knows why.
I couldn't turn on the radio because I didn't have one.
And, you know, we're all just sitting there.
New Yorkers are the most patient people in the world.
You know, we never, you know, jump out of our cars
and dance around in the hoods like people in other cities do
because we just sort of sit down and take whatever it is that's thrown at us.
And a lot was thrown at us today.
For some reason, heading into the city from Queens,
I don't know what it was, but everybody was just sitting there,
moving at about one or two miles an hour max for about 45 minutes.
Now, this obviously affected me making this appointment that I had to keep.
So, fortunately, I had my Omnipoint phone,
and I was in Queens so I could get service.
So I picked it up and started to dial, but it was after hours at BAI.
When it's after hours at BAI, you get that recording thing.
And I didn't know what the extension was.
So, there I was.
I was on my Omnipoint phone.
I'm trying to hack the BAI phone system so I can figure out what extension will ring.
You know, and I keep dialing extensions, and they ring,
and they go to other offices, and nobody's around.
And then, like, you know, I do this for about maybe five minutes.
And then, I get this really, really loud beep in my ear.
Really loud.
I mean, louder than anything I've ever heard.
You know what that is?
Low battery.
That's their way of telling you that by deafening you,
it's like, you know, hey, you can't talk anymore,
if not because you're deaf, because soon you won't have a phone.
I think that beep takes more energy than anything else the phone does.
And sure enough, less than a minute later, the phone just dies.
You know, that's the warning.
One beep, and that's it.
You know, you're out of there.
So, I couldn't call the station to tell the person I would be late.
I had this phone with me, and there was nothing I could do.
You know, it just completely died, and there was no way out of it.
The batteries don't last long enough.
These are the Ericsson, what's the model number of these, 337 or something like that?
I don't know.
But that's not an Omnipoint complaint.
That's just a regular hardware complaint.
And it's kind of frustrating when you're driving around with a portable phone
and you can't make any calls.
For one reason or another, either because you're out of range
or because the battery only lasts a couple of minutes,
it's something, a technology that has not quite yet reached the stage
where I'd like to, you know, to use it all the time.
There's the cost factor, too.
These things are very expensive.
Even if you take the plan that gives you the maximum amount of minutes.
I don't know, for some reason, I seem to spend a lot of time on these things
because people are always calling me or I'm always calling people.
However, I don't speak to anybody nearly as long as I speak to Omnipoint customer service.
An hour and 15 minutes on hold the other day.
This is after our show where I think we were on hold for 39 minutes.
An hour and 15 minutes.
And it was because I wanted to ask them a question about the service.
It's a simple question and it took about 30 seconds to answer.
But I had to go through that.
I went out with some people, you know, we went out to get food.
And I had started to make the call as we were going out.
I went through the entire meal with the phone up against my ear.
You know how annoying that is?
You know how rude that is?
I lost some good friends that night.
You know, just sitting around, not saying anything, glaring with a phone on my ear.
You know, that's not the way to live your life.
David is here and I believe you had a very interesting experience with my phone.
You tried to call me and something strange happened.
Uh, yeah.
Tell us about it.
The other night I tried to call you and, uh, well, I dialed in your number from Autodial
so I didn't misdial it.
Uh-huh.
And, uh...
You had me on speed dial, huh?
Yep.
That's cool.
I haven't figured out how to use that yet.
Speed dial, voice dial, they have all these features, but, uh...
Okay, so you dialed, you knew you dialed the right number.
Right.
And what happened?
I said your name on it.
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Because it does that.
Okay.
Okay, so, one ring and, uh, someone I don't know answers and says,
Hey, what's up?
Someone you don't know answered my phone.
Yep.
And said, Hey.
Yeah.
Okay.
And, you know...
Did you talk to them?
Well, before I could ask who it was, click, rang another time, and then it was you.
Your voicemail.
Not you.
Your voicemail.
So it went to my voicemail after a stranger picked up?
Yes.
Now, that's very interesting because something very, very similar to that happened to me last
week, and everybody said I was crazy for, uh, for even thinking such a thing was possible.
I called the, um, the, uh, voicemail number.
There's a certain number you call.
I think it's every exchange followed by the word mail.
Right.
If you call that, like, 917-770-MAIL, you'll get the, uh, you know, the mail person.
In fact, I'm going to try that.
If I can get an outside line here, uh, you'll see exactly what it sounds like.
And maybe this will even duplicate itself.
But I called this number, and right before I, I called the number, you know what?
Our touch tones aren't working.
Okay, now they're working, but I have to, uh, hang up and start again because I dialed
wrong.
Was this from your phone or from...
I called this, you know, I don't, I don't actually remember.
I think it was from my phone.
Okay, here we go.
This is what you're supposed to get.
Welcome to the Omnipoint Messaging Center.
Please enter the 10-digit number of the person you're trying to reach.
Now, I got her, but right before that, I got this, this really breathy woman saying,
Hi, baby.
I don't, I just was, is this the new Omnipoint greeting of some sort?
You know, I, I heard this, and I'm like, what?
And then, then she starts talking, you know, I entered a 10-digit number.
Of course, I hung up and called right back again to see if that would happen the second
time.
The person you're trying to reach.
But it didn't happen anymore.
Does she get angry if you don't say anything?
Yeah.
Wow, she threw down the phone.
Yeah, so there was definitely something going on with Omnipoint Connections because...
It's true, because the person that always answers acts like they already know you.
I'm sorry, say that again?
Because it's really weird that all the people that answer in your situation and mine, they
sound like they already know you.
And they, they have your number when you call them.
I, I guess if they're using...
Yeah, most of the time they get it anyway.
Caller ID.
Yeah.
Well, all these phones have caller ID.
Well, how do you know that's, who's picking up?
Well, I assume that somebody else, that was an Omnipoint person picking up.
Maybe it wasn't.
Maybe this is even bigger than we, than we thought.
But, um, it's weird.
You know, I, I told my story last week about how they assigned me all these different numbers
and kept switching me around.
You know, they gave the number they originally gave me and then took away from me with no
warning.
They gave it to somebody else.
They just gave it to another person.
So someone else now is probably getting all my calls from like two weeks ago when I gave
my first number out.
This was the first of like, actually the second of five different numbers.
Uh, so, um, you gotta be careful with these people.
They, uh, they may, uh, give away your number to somebody else at any moment.
In fact, they say they can do that, but they have to give you 10 days notice.
Right.
But they didn't give me any notice whatsoever.
Okay, 212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
If you have any questions about, uh, about, uh, Omnipoint, GSM phones, or, uh, the Beyond
Hope Conference or anything else like that, please give us a call, uh, because that's what
we're here for.
We won't be on next week, but we will be on the week after that.
But, more importantly, we'll be on the Saturday after next Wednesday, or next Tuesday, rather.
Let's just say August 9th at 6.30 p.m.
Saturday, August 9th, 6.30 p.m.
We'll be doing a two-hour show live from the Beyond Hope Conference.
And, uh, that's about as simple as I can make it.
Okay.
212-279-3400.
We're going to try and, uh, go with the, uh, lucky numbers this week.
See what we can get.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Oh.
Lucky indeed.
Let me turn the radio down.
It is, it is lucky.
It's lucky for me.
I don't know if it's lucky for you.
But, um, I'm, I'm happy with this.
Okay, my apologies, y'all.
Okay.
That's okay.
It's fine.
Okay.
Um, let's see.
I am going to be getting ISDN.
Uh-huh.
And I'm wondering about the tariffs for a second here.
I've heard conflicting information regarding, uh, additional call offering and other services.
Is there a charge for that extra or not, or?
There's a very small charge for, uh, for, uh, all kinds of features like caller ID, multiple call appearances, things like that.
Um, it's, it's definitely worth it for ISDN.
ISDN makes it very, uh, economically.
You get, you know, two, two lines, uh, you know, two channels, uh, and it's really, people say it's more, a little bit more expensive than a regular phone line, but you get a lot more.
So I think it's actually cheaper.
And with the, um, you're in 9X land?
Yeah.
Okay.
With, with the free installation they're offering, it's definitely, it's definitely worthwhile.
So, uh, it's probably the smartest thing they've done in a long time.
You know?
What a concept.
Um, though I've, you know, heard plenty of nightmare stories about getting it switched over, but, um.
They've gotten a lot better.
It seems to be going okay so far.
Um, so there is an additional fee for each additional service, or is it just like you pay an extra five bucks and you get all the services, or?
Uh, I think you pay, uh, you pay a small amount, like around five dollars or so, and you get a lot of features.
I don't know if you get all the features, but you certainly get, uh, get most of them, if not all of them.
Hmm.
Okay.
All right.
Thank you.
Thanks for calling.
Marlos, uh, you were shaking your head before when, uh, when, when we said 9X is getting better.
Do you have experience with ISDN that you'd like to share with us?
I just had a very bad experience with 9X ISDN.
Uh, it took them two weeks after I reported them to the Public Service Commission.
Two weeks after you reported them?
After the report, it took them two weeks to fix a hunt of five lines, ISDN lines.
A hunt.
Well, hunting has always been something that they've, uh, had trouble with.
According to them, they were putting the right commands on the switch, and the switch was not accepting them.
Uh-huh.
Interesting.
Wow.
Okay.
Well, um, by the way, I noticed you have a phone there.
Is that, is that a GSM phone?
Yes, it is.
Would you mind if I put my chip in your phone?
Go ahead.
That way I can see if I'm getting any calls.
Actually, you know how to do it.
Thank you.
That's the cool thing about these phones.
You know, I don't have a battery right now, but I can take my chip out and put it in somebody else's phone,
even if it's a totally different type of phone.
And, uh, then that phone becomes my phone.
My phone number gets, uh, transferred over.
It's pretty neat.
You're not mixing up those chips over there, are you?
It's a great way to, to, you know, pull a prank on someone, too.
You just sort of borrow their phone, take their chip, and then all of a sudden you're them.
But, uh, the humor wears off pretty fast.
Okay, 212-279-3400.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello.
How you doing?
Hey, how's it going?
It's going pretty good.
Well, you know.
Thanks for asking.
Well, I'm so concerned about your welfare.
Well, you should be.
Yeah, you know.
All right, what's up?
Uh, well, I just wanted to know.
One thing.
Okay.
In the last issue of 2600, you printed something about credit cards.
Yeah.
How could you do such a thing?
Well, because.
Which article are you referring to specifically?
Huh?
Which article, for the benefit of the audience?
Uh, hold on.
I'm going to look it up.
Yeah, why don't you look it up?
So we, we at least know what our terms are here.
Now I have to pull this.
Oh, that's the wrong issue.
You should always be prepared when you go on the radio to, to cite your sources.
Okay.
It is credit card numbers via calculator.
Oh, yes.
Okay.
What you're referring to is, uh, is the, the, the program that we printed that would allow
you to, uh, to, I guess, generate credit card numbers.
Now, you have a problem with this?
Yeah.
What's the problem?
Uh, that's ripping people off.
Well, it's not ripping people off, but it's ripping credit card companies off.
Generating numbers is ripping credit card companies off?
Well, if you go and use them.
Ah, okay.
That's, that's the jump.
That's the jump that you have made that we did not make using them.
We do not recommend using fraudulent credit card numbers, but we do recommend understanding
how the system works and how vulnerable it is to just such a thing.
No.
But you think, you think that by printing this, we're saying, yeah, kids, go ahead, use credit
cards.
No, that's not what, that's not what we stand for at all, because that's just stupid and
dumb and it's also stealing.
But why even, like, because that's what some people are going to think.
Well, okay, so you think to, to, um, to avoid this unpleasantness, we should just, like,
not talk about it at all?
Not share the knowledge?
That would help the situation.
Uh, isn't that kind of the mentality that, that a lot of system administrators take where
they know there's a problem and they just don't deal with it, they don't talk about
it?
Like, you know, the, the, the sin flooding thing that happened last, uh, last year.
Everybody knew it was a problem, but nobody talked about it.
Then all of a sudden we print something about it and it becomes a big major deal because
they didn't take any precautions.
I mean, I think credit cards are ridiculously simple to, to use and rip people off with.
And I think we need to know that, you know, I'm not comfortable with the fact that all
somebody needs to do is look at my credit card.
They don't need the card.
They just need the numbers and they can get on the phone and, and, and make purchases
and bill it to me.
You know, I think that's wrong.
I think the system is bad.
I would be being paranoid, you know, but.
Yeah.
If I was you, I wouldn't be worried about that really.
Why?
Well, uh, you know, just.
I flash a lot of cards around in the course of a day, you know, but it's, you know, it's
something I think we all need to, uh, to be aware of, you know, how vulnerable we are.
And it's, you know, we should not be the ones to bear the brunt of this.
If, if the system is so insecure that, uh, you know, just simply rattling off a few numbers,
uh, can, can get thousands of dollars billed to you.
Saying, you know, hey, I can make, I could get some free stuff off this.
And, you know.
Was that, was that the tone of the article?
Was the article saying, you guys can, can buy free things now?
No, but what is?
You know?
I think, I think the tone of the article was, this is an easy way to figure out how the algorithm
works.
And it's something that, uh, you know, once we printed something like that in the past,
we printed a program, and we got all these thank you letters from, uh, from various people,
including one system administrator who said this was a great way to verify if the credit
card numbers that he was getting were actually real numbers because they have to match the
algorithm.
You see?
Doing it on a calculator is just, it's kind of clever, you know, actually being able to do
something like this on a calculator.
Well, you're not going to convince me.
Well, I don't think I will, but, uh, but, you know, that's okay.
Well, before I go.
Yes.
I'm just going to yell hi to Rebel.
Uh, okay, well.
You know, don't worry about it.
I, I'm just supposed to say hi to him.
All right.
Well, that, that sort of verifies some other stuff that I had assumed about you, but, uh,
okay, hi, 212-279-3400, the Rebel Fan Club, is that what it is?
All right, let's, uh, it's always so hard when you have to pick a number, isn't it?
You know, it's like playing the lottery, except this time there's, like, a death part of it,
you know, if you hit, if you, if you get the wrong number.
Okay, let's, let's try this number over, uh, not that number, this number.
Ha ha.
Good evening, you're on the air.
I win.
Uh, no, I win.
I really do.
Okay.
Thanks a lot.
Three for three so far.
Good.
Yes, how you doing?
Very good, how are you?
I'm pretty good.
I'm feeling better now.
Good.
Uh, I want to ask you a question.
Yes.
Uh, I, uh, I know 958 with 9X will get me my number back, will read my number back to
me.
That's right.
Now, there are other tricks.
You have call waiting coming in, don't you?
Yeah, forget him.
That's digital call waiting.
I can't hear the tone, but I hear your voice cutting out.
Yeah, I'm, I'm sorry about that.
That's okay.
Uh, what I want to know is, uh, I used to dial numbers for ringbacks.
Mm-hmm.
Now, those numbers don't work anymore.
That was usually 660 followed by the last four digits or the last seven digits of the
number, and you flash, hang up, and it rings back.
660.
Followed by the last four digits or the last, what part of New York are you in?
Staten Island.
Uh, you know, I've actually tried this on Staten Island.
I think it's the last seven digits in the full exchange and the last four digits.
You hear a funny sounding tone, which sounds like a busy signal that doesn't flash, and
you simply flash once.
You, you, you hang up and pick up again and hang up, and, uh, the phone should ring.
Great.
Are there any other little tricks like that, um, 958 and this, that, uh, people should
know about?
Well, I mean, there are numbers, uh, I, I would say what the numbers are, except they vary
in so many places, but there are numbers you can dial that just simply disable the phone
totally for about five minutes.
That's always a good thing to, uh, to beat people with.
That's cute.
Yeah.
It's, um, you know, there's all kinds of funny things out there, but we encourage people
to, uh, to find them on their own, uh, by either scanning an exchange, uh, or just, uh,
playing around with numbers that you don't know what they do.
You know, like, uh, I mean, we know.
Oh, I've got plenty of time for that.
Okay.
Two kids, a wife on my back, wanting me to get a second job.
Oh, put them to work.
Put them to work.
I mean, these are more people that could be dialing, you know?
Definitely.
But sharing information, I think, is what it's all about.
So, uh, if you discover something interesting, you know, tell people, and if we discover
something, of course, we'll tell you.
Thanks a lot.
All right.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
Uh, as far as, uh, it reminds me of something, call waiting.
Uh, I don't know if you guys noticed this on Omnipoint.
This is actually something good.
I'm about to say something very good about them.
The way they handle call waiting, I think, is really good, because you hear the tone.
If you're, if it's your phone, you hear the tone, but you also hear the tone when they
hang up.
Now, with the 5ESSs and DMS100s, you only hear the tone when they're ringing.
You don't know when they hung up.
So, sometimes you flash over to see if they're there, and they're not even there anymore.
And you get all, you know, it's all confusing.
If you don't have a three-way and you hit flash, you're talking to the same person.
So, you get call waiting, you flash, and you say, hey, you don't believe the idiot I'm
talking to on this line.
And, of course, that person is still there, and here's what you're saying.
That doesn't happen with this kind of system, because you hear a special beep when they
hang up.
And, not only that, but the person talking to you also hears a beep.
So, they know that you're talking, and you just got a call waiting.
So, we don't have little conversations like this, where I have to, you know, hear the
person's voice cut out, and know that he got a call waiting.
It's a little bit more consumer-friendly.
Okay, I've got to pick a number again, don't I?
Let's get some more calls.
212-279-3400.
There are a few open lines here, and I'd like to see, uh...
Oh, okay.
I think...
Over here.
Doesn't want to pick up.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Hi, Emmanuel.
It didn't want to pick up.
It didn't want to pick up.
The phone was smart.
The phone was a smartphone.
I'm sorry for pushing the button three times like that.
Well, I just want to mention some things before I talk about what's going to be happening
at the HOPE conference.
Oh, boy.
This sounds like it's going to be lengthy.
No, it's not going to be lengthy.
I'm not going to take up all the time.
Okay.
I went to Massachusetts lately, and this past weekend...
You went to Massachusetts lately?
Well, this past weekend, I went up to New England, and guess what?
They have no 950 access.
Whenever you get on 950 numbers, it gets a recording.
The number you have reached, 950, whatever, is not in service.
Really?
Were you in SNET territory?
No, no, no, no.
New England, as in, like, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Boston.
And they do have the 9X payphone thing where it says,
Thank you for using a 9X payphone.
But it doesn't cut off your touchstones.
It really doesn't cut off the touchstones at all?
Nope.
I tried it.
Well, you know what that proves?
That proves that it doesn't have to cut off the touchstones.
It's a programming thing, and they can fix it.
Right.
So, Rebel, you have actually given us some very interesting information here,
something that we can use.
The payphones now are 25 cents, by the way.
Yes, I know.
They got rid of the 10-cent payphones.
Oh, too bad.
And by the way, are they going to talk about DVD at Beyond Home?
Yes, we'll have something involving that.
I don't know exactly what yet, but mostly it's going to be about computers and phones
and, you know, transatlantic links and things like that.
But we'll have every bit of technology we can find.
I just want to mention what I'm going to be discussing.
I'd like to help you with messenger work and delivering things and things like that
on Friday and Saturday.
Okay, well, I'm sure we'll have things for you to do.
Yeah, just contact me.
You're not afraid of heights, are you?
Why?
We'll talk.
All right.
Well, anyway, I'd like to mention what I'm going to be doing.
I'd like to talk about, I want to, I have a thing that I'd like to,
you said you want people to speak at Hope, like you're going to have an open mic session?
Yes, we'll try to do things like that.
Yeah, because I have things written down that I'd like to just discuss.
You know, basically I'll give a brief, like how to make free directory assistance calls
using AT&T's TDD service, and I'll, you know, discuss it with a computer
and things like that.
You can, by the way, use your computer to use your PC as a TDD.
You just set it at 1,200 board.
Actually, you don't have to set it.
It sets itself again.
Well, let's save it for the conference.
Okay.
Don't want to spoil the surprises.
Yeah.
International directory assistance can be built to anybody,
and I'll be discussing that at Beyond Hope.
Maybe we'll get an AT&T person there, too, to say that it's not possible
because that's always what they say.
That's true.
We could always call AT&T.
You know what we could do?
We could call AT&T live there, and, you know, we could discuss to the audience
how, like, you know, how...
It sounds like something for the social engineering conference.
Yeah, well...
The panel that we have there.
It's not really a social engineering thing.
It's just a how people don't understand type of a thing.
That's another thing I'm going to be discussing on how people, you know...
And, by the way, the webmaster, is he there?
Because I wanted to ask a question on...
Beyond Hope.net...
Webmaster has been called away.
Oh, all right.
Well, Beyond Hope.net...
It's a dragon to slay or something.
Hope.net.
Remember you said you were getting a lot of hits from, like, .mil sites?
Yes.
You get the...
You see user at whatever .mil...
I think we just see the site.
We don't see the actual username.
Okay.
That's the question that I was...
So, yes, you can hit all those weird websites that you like to hit and you don't get identified.
So, they'll just see escape.com hit it?
Exactly.
Okay, that was my question.
Yes.
I see.
Anything else?
Because we have a flurry of calls we want to get to.
All right.
Well, I'll be speaking at Beyond Hope, and I know the person who has said hello to me,
I think...
Now, he's emailed me in.
Hopefully, there'll be a lot of media people there, because my opinion, I think when the
media gets involved...
That's right.
We've got to get the tomatoes.
Thanks for reminding me.
Yeah.
The tomatoes...
No, there's going to be a media conference where some hackers can ask the media questions
rather than the other way around.
Like, I remember the Times was there, and the magazines were there, and the news people
like Channel 5 and people like that were there at the last one.
It was so much fun.
Yeah.
Anyway, thanks for calling, and we'll look forward to seeing you at Beyond Hope.
And, of course, there's a 2600 meeting this Friday coming up.
Now, Pam, we have a volunteer meeting this Friday.
Yeah, we've decided...
Actually, wait, I forgot to turn your mic on.
Let's try that one.
Go ahead.
Okay.
We decided that, given the flurry of activity that still needs to go on, and we didn't want
to make anybody feel unwelcome, since a lot of people will be at the 2600 meeting anyway
this Friday.
We will be having an auxiliary volunteer meeting at the regular time, which is 7 o'clock at
CityCore Center this Friday, August 1st.
What we're going to do is, instead of meeting downstairs in the atrium area, volunteers head
upstairs to the kind of fringe, circular, walkway, balcony area.
The alternative 2600 meeting.
Yeah.
Where people that are really going to give some time and effort are welcome to show up
and give us their time.
And, hey, Rebel, you should go to www.hope.net and register to be a volunteer.
We're not going to get in touch with you.
You get in touch with us.
Why'd you have to say that?
Okay, well.
And that goes for everybody else, too.
You're the volunteer coordinator, so.
Yeah, well.
He's a messenger.
He can help us.
That's true.
That's true.
That could be useful.
Get him out and running around.
Packages to deliver to Fresno or something.
Afghanistan.
All right.
That's going to be fun.
212-279-3400.
Let's see who else is out there.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello?
Yes, go ahead.
Hi.
This is Jim.
I'm a physician.
Is this the radio?
Yes, you're on the air.
Okay.
I'm calling in.
I'm a physician.
I have two offices and a very complicated communication life.
And I was hoping you might be able to simplify it.
I'll try.
I have two offices that I have connected over a network.
And I have pagers, cellular phones, and call forwarding between my two offices.
And I currently have eight phone lines, cellular phone, car phones, and beeper service.
Wow.
And I'm trying to consolidate things.
Are these two offices in the same city?
They're on Long Island, about 17 miles apart.
And I currently do a dial-up for my computer network between the two and pay about $400 a month.
I could get an ISDN line between the two.
And I'd like to share data invoice between the two lines.
Okay.
And I'm toying with the idea of carrying one of those cellular phones with beeper service and mail on it so I could call forward from the office when I leave.
Uh-huh.
Well, yeah.
I mean, you can do all kinds of things like that.
I mean, you could also have things like 800 numbers and 700 numbers and that kind of thing.
What are your needs, though?
I mean, things vary for every application.
Well, the major need is to be able to get all messages dependably and not rely on people to call forward the phones and things like that and cut down on my expenses and simplify things.
Okay.
Well, is saving money an object here?
Yeah, it would be, but communication is the most important thing.
Efficiency.
AT&T has something known as 500 numbers.
Have you heard about those?
No.
Uh, 500 numbers are numbers that follow you around everywhere you go.
And you have one number.
Uh, you can set it so that, uh, you know, you pay for the call or you can set it so that, uh, the person calling pays for the call.
Uh, and, and you can program it to, at certain times, uh, change to a different number.
Uh, and you can change that anytime you wish.
I mean, I think it's a lot easier not to give out different numbers to different people to have simply one number that, that, you know, forwards to wherever it is that you are at the moment.
Whether it's your cellular number, whether it's your pager that you'd rather people get.
Um, I, I just think that would be, you know, it sounds like you have a lot of numbers floating around.
Right.
And that can drive you crazy.
Well, we have rollover and call forward.
Can you get those types of, uh, services with that?
Sure, yeah, they have call forwarding where it, it goes to any place you are, even overseas, and you just simply set it to do that.
And if it's busy, you can rollover to the next number?
Sure, I mean, uh, the, the hunt group is, um, um, something that you define locally, but, uh, it, they can, they can also have it where if the line itself is unreachable for whatever reason, it goes to, uh, another line.
You know, a second attempt, and I think a third one after that, uh, it can, it can do all kinds of things.
It can also be programmed to, uh, to ring you in one location after, say, three rings, it goes to another location, et cetera, et cetera, until, uh, you know, it either finds you or it just gives up entirely.
So, I mean, there are options out there, and, and that 500 service is one of them.
I don't think it's the only one.
Uh, there, there's other things, too.
Mm-hmm.
That sounds very good.
Yeah, I mean, you're out on the island, right?
Yes.
Nassau or Suffolk?
Uh, both.
Okay, yeah, so something like Omnipoint would not quite work for you yet, because, uh, it doesn't cover the area, but they have some, you know, they have some good features as far as that kind of thing goes, where you can, you know, forward based on certain criteria.
Mm-hmm.
And what's your experience with, uh, sharing lines between two offices, uh, so you can have open, have it ring in either office, and, uh, share data?
You mean, like, get a foreign exchange?
Well, share data over the computer line, and also have a, uh, uh, all the calls forwarded to the other office.
Uh-huh.
Uh, have open line, basically, all the time between the two.
Yeah, well, you see, now, you're, you're going from Nassau to Suffolk, right?
Right.
So, there's, it's not the same calling zone, so that means you'd have to pay for every single one of those phone calls, and they, they, they'd all be timed as well.
Um, so, you might want to look into alternatives as far as that goes, see if there's other companies offering better deals, um, or just have one, um, one...
ISDN or something?
Well, I mean, ISDN lines are, are fine, but where do you get your service from?
Uh, 9x, uh, right now.
Uh, no, as far as, as far as your computer service?
Oh, uh, locally, uh, I'm in that business.
Uh-huh.
Oh, you're a provider?
Um, well, uh, we make software.
Okay.
Awesome.
Right, but when, okay, so you're basically communicating back and forth between the two offices.
Yeah.
Yeah, so what you probably want to do is get some sort of a leased line arrangement where it's, like, uh, constantly hooked up between the two.
Uh-huh.
And that would be, um, invariably cheaper than making all these phone calls, especially if you're making a lot of phone calls for, you know...
Right.
...great amounts of time.
Yeah.
Uh, that's, that's what they're for.
It's, it's based on mileage.
It's based on, you know, the, uh, the amount of miles that you cover between the two offices.
You get, like, a T1 or something installed between them.
Uh-huh.
And, uh, you know, that, that should make things fast and, and cheaper, depending on the distance.
You say it's, what, about 17 miles?
Uh-huh.
Um, that shouldn't be too bad.
I don't know what the, about 400?
About 400 a month you'd probably pay for that, but you'd get, you know, a lot more than you're getting now.
A lot of service.
Yeah.
Yeah, I, I have an interesting, uh, anecdote for you.
Uh, when I was a teenager in the early 60s, one of my friends had a black box.
He was a teenager.
It's before anybody ever heard of it.
Right.
And, um, I asked him what to do with it, and he said, you'd call anybody anywhere in the world.
We were teenagers.
We didn't know anybody outside our hometown to call with.
So, it was, uh, it wasn't very worthwhile for us.
It's probably a blue box, though, not a black box.
Well, I, I'm not sure, but it was, uh, you know, circumvent charges.
But, um, unfortunately, his, uh, his, his electronic genius was, uh, limited by our, our social, uh, sphere.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Well, you know, that's a good, that's a way to expand, you know, your social horizons.
I remember when I was in high school, I used to, I picked this one person out of, out of, out of random, total random.
I just, like, picked the person in New Orleans.
This was back when, uh, uh, when, when information was free.
And I just, you know, got this person's phone number.
I just kept calling them collect, you know, just out of random.
I just picked this person out of nowhere.
And one day he accepted, and we had a nice chat.
It was kind of, kind of weird.
But, uh, you know, you can just do things like that.
Just call people totally at random.
Yeah.
What I do is I ask, you know, total strangers to look up numbers for me, because it's cheaper than calling information.
You know, it's like a dollar now.
Yeah.
Whereas calling a person is ten cents.
You get ten tries before, you know, you're still ahead of the game.
Yeah.
Well, the, uh, there's something going on now where, uh, people call you a beeper if they have the number, and they ask you to call.
Call back on the number.
You don't recognize the number, and then, uh, you get charged.
Charge an amazing amount.
Yeah, that's, that's an old scam.
But, you know, it's, uh, it's something that, um, I don't entirely fault the people that are doing it.
Obviously, they're sleazebags for doing this, but they are taking advantage of a poorly designed system that allows these numbers to just exist next to other numbers, and you have no idea how much, you know, how much what you're calling is going to cost.
Uh-huh.
So, um, yeah, interesting points.
Thanks so much for calling.
Good luck.
Thank you for your advice.
Good luck on the conference.
Sounds like fun.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
And, uh, speaking of black boxes and blue boxes and things like that reminds me of TAP.
Remember TAP magazine?
Well, at the Beyond Hope conference, you know what's going to happen?
There's going to be a TAP reunion.
That's right.
A TAP reunion.
They're all coming back together.
And, um, there'll be a meeting of the staff, hangers-on, and even some adoring fans who've shown an interest.
Cheshire Catalyst is, uh, organizing all of this.
It will be held on the evening of Saturday, August 9th, at 9 p.m.
The get-together will be held at Eddie's on 14 Waverly Place between Washington Square and Broadway.
Um, it's a bit of a hike from the Puck Building, but not too bad.
Certainly not worth a cab or bus.
If you don't know to wear good walking shoes to New York City, then this is your first warning.
Eddie's was one of the places where TAP regulars and irregulars would gather on Friday nights over burgers and Cokes.
Besides being one of the few places in New York City we frequented that's still open,
it's actually large enough to hold the crowd that we expect to show up.
And a Saturday night in August should be pretty slow.
So, that's what's happening on Saturday.
It's after the radio show, the TAP reunion.
Of course, there'll be all kinds of different things happening at the same time.
There's going to be a rave on Saturday night somewhere.
We'll give details out at the conference and over the net.
There's going to be reduced admission to various things like Rocky Horror and all kinds of other neatness going on in the city.
You know, there's a lot of things to do in New York City.
I don't know if people are aware of this, but there's all kinds of, like, social events going on.
And we intend to let our several thousand people, however many show up, in on all this.
So, there'll be kind of some fun things going on.
If you want to get involved somehow, if, say, you know, you own a nightclub or a movie theater or something like that,
and you're just kicking yourself now for not getting involved up till now,
or if you know people that have, you know, bits of equipment that we can get our hands on for various purposes,
sound equipment, lighting equipment, I don't know, all kinds of neat things that you could do at a conference.
You know, it's really up to us what we want to do.
But you can contact us at the magazine by calling 516-751-2600.
And leave a message for me, Emanuel, Box 2600, I believe.
You can also reach that by calling our voicemail system at 516-473-2626,
or you can send me mail, Emanuel at 2600.com.
That's the best way to get a hold of me.
And you can also send mail to the entire Off the Hook staff, OTH at 2600.com.
And a bunch of us will see that.
Okay, 212-279-3400.
Let's take the few calls we have time for.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Well, I hope that was as big a throw for you as it was for me.
You're on the air, though.
Hello?
Yes, it's you.
Ah, great.
Hold on a second.
Where's my remote?
I've got to turn down the radio.
Okay.
Okay.
I have two questions that are really not related to what you've been talking about tonight.
But they have something to do with the last issue of 2600 Magazine.
That would be the Spring 97 issue.
Yes.
The Summer 97 issue is not yet out, so everybody can stop calling and complaining about it.
They will be out at the conference.
I just was reading the piece or the editorial about Kevin Mitnick, and I've been following
his life, I guess, to a degree, ever since I read the first book about him way back in
91.
Before you continue, let me just say, if you've been following his life, you've probably been
following his life through the eyes of John Markoff, right?
Well, no, not entirely, because I'm a hacker myself, and I actually know some people that
knew him personally.
Okay.
But I was just wondering, because you were talking about the fact that he has been sitting
in a California penitentiary for two years now, and that they still have not even made
an indictment of charges against him.
Whatever happened to the right of an American to a speedy trial?
Well, you know, in today's legal system, all kinds of things can get in the way of that.
Just ask Bernie S. He's actually been in jail now.
Kevin's been in jail now for two and a half years.
He has been indicted on all kinds of absurd charges, but there's no trial date in sight.
I mean, he was indicted last summer, actually, for, what was it again?
All kinds of accessing of, for, I don't even know anymore, because it's just so crazy.
It's just nonsense, and stuff he's, I don't think he's going to ever plead guilty to.
He recently was sentenced for having illegal cellular numbers on his person, and for allegedly
violating supervised release, which is, again, open to contention.
And they say sentenced him to just about the amount of time that he was in prison for,
which is unheard of, but it gets them out of saying that he was in jail for too long.
And, of course, now he's being held without bail for these other charges that he was charged
with last summer.
It's just, it gets crazy after a while.
I mean, there's just so many things going around.
They say after this is over, you know, they intend to charge him with even more things.
Yeah, you were talking about how they were planning to drag him all across the country
and so on and so forth because of the fact that he technically, in a virtual sense,
had been to these various places.
It reminds me of that court case where the people who were running the porn board out
in California were extradited to Tennessee based on the fact that the community standards
of Tennessee did not, were not the same as the California, as Californians, and they're
actually still sitting in prison.
It's a common tactic for prosecutors to keep trying until they get the sentence they want.
And, you know, all the charges could be dropped against him tomorrow, and his problems
would still not be over because they'll just, they'll say, okay, well now it's Seattle's
turn, you know, and it's like the Larry King show.
Okay, Seattle, what do you want to charge him with?
Actually, the other thing that I really wanted to ask you about is another person who has
been accused of a computer crime, although it's not on the same level as Kevin Mitnick,
but I recently saw a program about two months ago now, actually, on the Learning Channel about
the Citibank bank fraud where the $10 million had been diverted back in 1994, and there was
a Russian programmer was being held in an English prison awaiting extradition to the United States,
and at the time the program said that his extradition hearing would be in the spring of 1997.
Obviously, the documentary was probably made in 1996, even though it was only aired in
June.
I was wondering if you knew anything about what had actually happened since that was supposed
to have taken place in the spring.
I haven't actually heard anything on that case.
I remember when it first happened.
Yeah, I do too.
And I remember reacting with dismay how everybody was calling this person a hacker when actually
all he did was, you know, he used some computer skills, but he transferred money, you know,
and stole quite a bit.
But so that's, you know, that in itself right away, you know, if our credit card friend is
still listening, that's not the kind of thing we're into.
Yeah, I understand that.
And I mean, I understand that it also doesn't fit the definition of a hacker, however, at
the same time, I don't know, it based on the program, it actually seems like the person
that they are having sit in this prison is just a scapegoat.
It's not actually the people involved, because it was it was a huge network of people, especially
on the side of getting the money actually into the hands of human beings and not just
letting it sit electronically.
That may very well be so.
I'm curious why he's being extradited, though.
I mean, you know, hasn't he violated Russian laws?
Can he be charged over there?
Well, according to them, you know, that he was he didn't.
They can't prove anything.
And actually, it's a shame because they said in the documentary that his what's being held
against him is the uncorroborated testimony of one person.
That's what's holding him.
In fact, this one person said that he was the mastermind behind it and everything else,
because when they seized his computers at the at the programming development house that
he worked for in St. Petersburg, they didn't find anything on the on those computers.
And essentially, he's been sitting in an English prison based on the uncorroborated
testimony of one man who was caught transferring money out of a bank in I think it was the
Netherlands or or Finland, something like that.
Well, after after seeing what they've done with, you know, Kevin, Nick, Bernie as fiber
optic, you know, how they twist the truth and just distort things.
So they get what they want.
I certainly can believe that this case is not all that we're hearing.
I'm afraid we're out of time, though.
Thanks so much for bringing up two very interesting points.
Undoubtedly, we'll be bringing up points like that in future shows and at the Beyond Hope
conference, which once again is a week from this coming weekend, August 8th, 9th and 10th
at the Park Building downtown Houston and Lafayette.
Live broadcast coming from there on Saturday, August 9th from 630 to 830 p.m.
right here on WBAI.
If you want to be part of the studio audience, just come down to the conference.
You can register Friday evening or the main part of the conference starts on Saturday.
Registration starts at around 10 a.m.
So I hope to see a lot of you there.
And we'll be back again at this time slot in two weeks.
And I guess we'll have sort of a post-mortem of the whole conference, what we did wrong,
what we could have done better, and maybe some of the things that went right.
Who knows?
So we'll see you in two weeks or sooner, depending on what your situation is.
Until then, have yourselves a good night.
The telephone keeps ringing
So I ripped it off the wall
I cut myself while shaving
Now I can't make a cough
It couldn't get much worse
But if it could, it would
Bumbiggly bump
But I best expect the worst
I hope that's understood
Bumbiggly bump
Bumbly bump
Check this.
Sunday, August 17th, from 3 to 7 p.m.
The performing arts of the Central American Garifuna debut at the Lincoln Center Out-of-Doors Festival,
with traditional songs and dances performed by Wanichigu, crown jewel of Garifuna dance companies in the U.S.
Also, Manhattan's first major performance of Punta Rock, the city's most vibrant music scene, featuring
T.T. Man Flores from Dangriga, Belize, cradle of contemporary Garifuna music, Acha.
And cultural ambassador Aurelio Martinez.
www.un sägapliembre.com
ano fondée
Sneple Angle
Sneple Angle
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tailored
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membre
understood
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and
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