Off The Hook - 1997-08-12

[00:01.340 --> 00:05.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: We find that stillness, those moments, all the time.
[00:06.040 --> 00:18.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Does the presence of nature have any particular value in the way you would see a context that is favorable to stillness?
[00:19.200 --> 00:25.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: And by nature, I mean, we're affecting nature, there isn't much wilderness left.
[00:27.300 --> 00:30.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mankind gets his hands everywhere.
[00:31.340 --> 00:50.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: But what I'm wondering is, in a world where we're very much surrounded by our own artifacts, things are made, they're manufactured, they're altered by human beings, that world is very much upon us, as opposed to, as you mentioned earlier, a walk outside in the woods,
[00:50.820 --> 00:53.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: a brook, birds.
[00:54.480 --> 01:01.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: How can we achieve this stillness, even in a world of total artifact?
[01:02.380 --> 01:03.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think we can.
[01:03.740 --> 01:04.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think we can.
[01:04.540 --> 01:06.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: So we don't want to get too romantic about nature.
[01:06.560 --> 01:06.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: No.
[01:07.160 --> 01:07.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: No.
[01:07.600 --> 01:14.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's a great danger that we somehow romantically identify meditation with mountaintops and forests and all this stuff.
[01:14.020 --> 01:16.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, those are the pictures you get from some of the Chinese Zen masters.
[01:16.940 --> 01:17.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
[01:17.760 --> 01:18.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
[01:18.240 --> 01:18.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: There is.
[01:19.360 --> 01:20.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a reason for that.
[01:20.920 --> 01:36.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Certainly, there is a quality of stillness, when one, and a quality of just the sheer sort of mystery and glory of life itself, that we find, say, in a quiet field full of flowers, or in a pine forest, or on a mountaintop.
[01:36.260 --> 01:38.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: There is something enormously inspiring about that.
[01:38.700 --> 01:42.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that it's valuable that we do reconnect with that natural life.
[01:43.600 --> 01:51.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the danger, then, is to mistake... is to get confused and think, well, that's really, you know, where it's at.
[01:51.840 --> 01:54.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And as soon as I get back into the city, then it's back to hell.
[01:54.980 --> 01:55.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's wrong.
[01:56.460 --> 02:02.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: That the Buddha described... he said, all dharmas are, as it were, of the same taste.
[02:02.700 --> 02:03.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: All dharmas.
[02:03.800 --> 02:04.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: All phenomena.
[02:04.540 --> 02:05.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Dharmas are phenomena.
[02:05.520 --> 02:07.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: In this context, yes.
[02:07.240 --> 02:07.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Dharma is a phenomena.
[02:08.300 --> 02:10.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: All phenomena have the same taste.
[02:10.600 --> 02:26.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, whether we are in an utterly artifact-driven sort of place, like on top of a skyscraper in an office lit entirely by fluorescent lights and staring at a computer screen, that is still...
[02:27.160 --> 02:34.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: we're still encountering the same, you know, the same basically sense data that are impinging upon our experience.
[02:34.400 --> 02:45.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's no reason why that could not be a context for enlightenment any more than the rather classic romantic notion of sitting by a waterfall in a beautiful Chinese forest.
[02:45.900 --> 03:00.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that is where the Dharma, the practice of spirituality or wherever, really needs to be most finely honed and brought into the working place of people and not romantically identified with something else.
[03:00.920 --> 03:07.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, in the United States, we have a fundamental principle called the separation of church and state.
[03:07.800 --> 03:13.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this very much conditions the kind of education that the state can make available.
[03:13.660 --> 03:15.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you see any problem with that?
[03:19.920 --> 03:20.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a good question.
[03:20.900 --> 03:21.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: In England...
[03:22.760 --> 03:24.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: In England, we don't have that division, as you know.
[03:24.880 --> 03:42.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: And what that has led to recently in Britain is a reform of the Education Act, in which by the age of 16, every child who leaves the state education system must be familiar with the ideas of the six basic religions of Britain, which now include Hinduism,
[03:42.960 --> 03:47.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, as well as Christianity and Judaism.
[03:48.840 --> 03:51.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, there's something, I think, rather good about that.
[03:51.260 --> 04:08.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: It means that in the actual educational environment, in the school system, children are at least exposed to these other possibilities, and they're not being exposed to exclusively a dominant religious tradition, say, as would be Christianity.
[04:09.320 --> 04:15.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: So there is a pluralism of religious awareness, spiritual awareness, entering into the state system.
[04:16.280 --> 04:22.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: But on the other hand, I must admit, I do rather admire the separation of church and state in America.
[04:24.240 --> 04:27.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I feel very ambivalent about it, really.
[04:28.320 --> 04:35.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: The thing for me, really, is the question as to whether Buddhism really is a religion, or whether it has degraded into a religion.
[04:36.260 --> 04:54.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: The problem with the state approach in Britain, for example, is that it assumes that Buddhism is of the same order as, say, Islam or Sikhism, and that it is presented to children as being something that is some metaphysical belief system that one can choose or not to choose,
[04:54.640 --> 04:59.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: and also something that is very much present in certain ethnic minority communities.
[04:59.220 --> 05:02.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it gives a rather distorted image of Buddhism.
[05:03.300 --> 05:06.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that is not necessarily a good thing.
[05:08.880 --> 05:10.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I don't know.
[05:10.780 --> 05:21.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that if we really question this, we might find that Buddhism, and even perhaps some of the other movements that we call religions, are actually much broader than that.
[05:21.180 --> 05:25.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: They are, as it were, cultural forms that have religious components.
[05:25.360 --> 05:35.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so what I'm arguing in my book at the moment, in fact, is that Buddhism is perhaps more adequately seen as a culture that includes religion, but is not reducible to it.
[05:36.120 --> 05:39.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, what do you mean by religion in this context?
[05:39.040 --> 05:40.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'm using...
[05:40.340 --> 05:47.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because you're saying there's something about Buddhism which is religion and which isn't, and then I was thinking, well, maybe the same could be said about Christianity.
[05:47.480 --> 05:48.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, indeed.
[05:48.580 --> 05:54.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: The religious element is that of, let's say, belief, primarily.
[05:56.020 --> 06:14.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I find myself often in interfaith dialogues, for example, and it seems to... and I'm addressed in that context as a believer, as somebody who presumably has a worldview that he or she can neither prove nor disprove, that they accept on trust, that is given to them by some other authority.
[06:14.740 --> 06:20.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say, for example, the views about rebirth and karma in Buddhism, or heaven and hell in Christianity.
[06:21.820 --> 06:28.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Buddhism, in that sense, is seen as a religion, in the sense that I choose to believe things that I cannot...
[06:28.140 --> 06:32.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't experienced, I do not know about, but I accept on trust.
[06:33.120 --> 06:39.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, to that extent, I do not consider myself a religious person, because I'm not prepared to take that kind of irrational step.
[06:42.340 --> 06:52.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the way religion has... the way things have become religions, I think, can often be seen as a degradation of a spirit of inquiry.
[06:53.460 --> 07:05.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: That in the root of many of these great traditions, we find not an insistence upon people believing certain things, but rather an opening to people questioning their lives in a particular way.
[07:05.600 --> 07:09.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's the questions, I feel, that are more important, not the answers.
[07:11.220 --> 07:35.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Aldous Huxley once said to me, after a speech he gave in San Francisco on the mind, he... well, he'd spoken about how education was so deficient in the modern world, and it was just going about it in the entirely wrong way, and that another aspect of the human being had to be engaged if education was really going to be useful.
[07:36.520 --> 07:40.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I scratched my head, I didn't know exactly what he was referring to.
[07:40.940 --> 07:45.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: And after the speech, as he walked out of the room, I said, well, what are you talking about?
[07:46.200 --> 07:47.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is there something I could read?
[07:48.180 --> 07:56.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he referred me to Zen... I believe it's Zen Mind, Zen Bones, the collection of koans and stories by Rapp...
[07:56.800 --> 07:57.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Rapps, Paul Rapps.
[07:57.800 --> 07:59.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Paul Rapps, I think it was.
[07:59.200 --> 08:03.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: This was 61, so it would have been that pocketbook.
[08:03.960 --> 08:16.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I want to bring that back in the context, even if you're studying religions as historical narratives, that's not really what Huxley had in mind, and I don't think it's what you have in mind.
[08:16.320 --> 08:19.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: There is a way to engage the person
[08:23.000 --> 08:35.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: that fosters character and that will actually come to terms with issues like fear and greed and envy and such vices.
[08:36.280 --> 08:38.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's not a narrative.
[08:38.320 --> 08:39.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's something else.
[08:40.200 --> 08:48.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: So if we're barred from going over the line from narrative into that something else, where does that leave education?
[08:50.380 --> 09:04.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think in this sense, I feel education is once again very much about reconnecting with the primary questions that we ask, rather than simply learning certain answers to those questions that have been preserved in, say, the religions.
[09:05.420 --> 09:13.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the practice of both Buddhism and I think all the great religions, really, is really about being aware of what...
[09:13.500 --> 09:16.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: of the very root question, what does it mean to live?
[09:16.460 --> 09:19.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: What is it that a human life is for?
[09:20.160 --> 09:26.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if we reconnect with that question, I think we reconnect with something very essential within ourselves.
[09:26.440 --> 09:33.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: And through meditation, for example, we also open ourselves to the possibility of another response.
[09:33.940 --> 09:36.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's that response that I'm interested in.
[09:36.780 --> 09:52.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that response is not something that can simply be dictated by the traditional forms of religion, but I think it's something that needs to be a response that comes from the very individual nature of our concrete experience here and now.
[09:53.340 --> 10:06.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: So meditation can take us to a point in which we reconnect with that question and it can open us to the possibilities of an imaginative and a creative response that is one that addresses the needs of our times now.
[10:07.640 --> 10:08.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[10:08.220 --> 10:08.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I...
[10:08.800 --> 10:09.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway.
[10:09.160 --> 10:10.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to have to take a break.
[10:10.220 --> 10:10.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll come back.
[10:10.760 --> 10:17.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: I want to push a little deeper into this question of how should young people be educated?
[10:17.640 --> 10:21.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we're all young in the sense that we need further learning.
[10:21.860 --> 10:27.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if you're calling for meditation to come to terms with what is the...
[10:27.880 --> 10:29.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: how should one live?
[10:29.760 --> 10:34.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can we have an educational system that ignores that practice?
[10:34.620 --> 10:36.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: And what about all that?
[10:36.380 --> 10:38.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll get into it when we come back.
[10:38.300 --> 10:39.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm talking to Stephen Batchelor.
[10:39.820 --> 10:40.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is We the People.
[10:40.920 --> 10:41.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be right back.
[10:47.590 --> 10:54.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you're tuned to listener-supported commercial-free radio WBAI in New York, 99.5 FM.
[10:54.490 --> 11:03.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Coming up at 8 p.m., about 20 minutes or so, Off the Hook with Emmanuel Goldstein, followed by Housing Notebook, produced by Scott Sommer.
[11:03.930 --> 11:06.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: City in Exile at 10 p.m.
[11:06.750 --> 11:16.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Tonight on City in Exile, Bahisoo Koo and Andrea Clare speak with the editors of Concrete Jungle, reconsidering nature in the city.
[11:16.650 --> 11:22.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Some other subjects, some other guests, as well as poisoned arts.
[11:22.890 --> 11:33.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: At 10.45, if you're a late-night worker or an early-morning riser, tune in to Night Drum with Brother Shine at 3.30 a.m.
[11:33.710 --> 11:35.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Back to We the People with Jerry Brown.
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[11:46.070 --> 11:46.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is Jerry Brown.
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[12:02.570 --> 12:10.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: In the studio, Stephen Batchelor, the author of Buddhism Without Beliefs, The Awakening of the West, and the Faith to Doubt, is here.
[12:10.870 --> 12:20.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we're talking about really the basic stuff on what it is to live, how we confront our ignorance, our hatred, and our desires.
[12:21.230 --> 12:24.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: A little more on this education business.
[12:27.010 --> 12:27.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Where...
[12:27.630 --> 12:32.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because nothing really can be more important than the context of learning.
[12:32.810 --> 12:40.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Starting out at our most formative years, and now you are in an educational setting for people in their 20s and above.
[12:40.610 --> 12:42.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: But before that, we're picking up a lot of conditioning.
[12:43.330 --> 12:51.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: So do you have any thoughts on how you would like to see that situation of learning show up and take place?
[12:52.250 --> 13:00.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think one of the things that perhaps could be brought more into the school education system is something akin to meditation.
[13:00.350 --> 13:06.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know there's a great reluctance amongst educators to even embrace that idea.
[13:06.990 --> 13:10.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, remember, in America, you can have your own schools.
[13:10.570 --> 13:12.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can have homeschooling.
[13:12.530 --> 13:13.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: So we're totally free here.
[13:14.190 --> 13:14.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[13:14.530 --> 13:14.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[13:14.730 --> 13:21.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: So what is really up for question is how to design the setting for younger people.
[13:21.590 --> 13:25.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then after we talk about that, of course, I'm going to want to know what about us?
[13:25.550 --> 13:26.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, sure.
[13:26.050 --> 13:30.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: At 60 or 40, I don't think it's time to stop.
[13:30.490 --> 13:36.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think there are two things that conventional state education, at least in Europe, does not offer children.
[13:36.970 --> 13:43.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that is the capacity to ask questions that do not have readily available answers.
[13:44.430 --> 13:46.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, let's say spiritual questions.
[13:46.930 --> 13:51.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: But outside a religious context, to get in touch with the very...
[13:51.410 --> 13:53.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: to remain in touch with the mystery of life.
[13:53.570 --> 14:00.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, what's wonderful about small children is that they have this natural sense of wonder, this natural sense of awe.
[14:00.610 --> 14:12.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it almost seems that the education system is designed to get rid of that, to get them into being nice, rational, clear-headed, ambitious consumers and professionals and so on.
[14:12.330 --> 14:14.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have a hunch that's what Huxley was talking about.
[14:14.790 --> 14:15.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Could well have been.
[14:16.050 --> 14:19.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I know when I was a kid, I had this...
[14:19.290 --> 14:25.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: always had this funny feeling when I was at school that what really mattered to me was never talked about.
[14:25.490 --> 14:29.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: I had this funny feeling that my existence, that the fact...
[14:29.450 --> 14:34.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't use that language, of course, but that my own life was never really addressed.
[14:34.430 --> 14:36.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: That I was learning about things.
[14:36.310 --> 14:42.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I was never really given a language or a practice that would actually address that question.
[14:43.010 --> 14:49.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, when I was in public school, originally, I started out in public school and then in the fifth grade, I went to a Catholic school.
[14:49.130 --> 14:56.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: But in those first years, I also had to go to catechism class once or twice a week.
[14:56.090 --> 14:57.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that was in the basement of a church.
[14:58.270 --> 15:01.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was kind of a, I don't know, musty place, a little bit dark.
[15:02.030 --> 15:08.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they had these pictures of saints and stories from the Bible and Noah's Ark.
[15:08.010 --> 15:21.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I can still recall that this seemed to be about some kind of reality or something that seemed very special and something that I wanted to know a lot more about.
[15:21.970 --> 15:27.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's probably why ultimately I went and entered a seminary after I'd gotten out of high school.
[15:28.110 --> 15:49.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it's that there's a sense in which in the programmed order of standardization, which is the school, that there's a lot, intuition, emotions, spiritual, whatever the words are, we need to be pointing at something else.
[15:49.510 --> 15:49.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[15:50.670 --> 15:52.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: How would you frame that?
[15:52.850 --> 15:53.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or how would you react to that?
[15:54.270 --> 15:56.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, I have a very similar experience.
[15:56.510 --> 16:02.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was actually, my family was humanist and they excluded me from all religious education as a child.
[16:02.710 --> 16:08.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the thing that, the story that really hit me when I was about 14 or 15 was the story of Plato's cave.
[16:08.770 --> 16:12.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this came in one of these classes that was really just a one-off thing.
[16:12.830 --> 16:14.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that story really hit me.
[16:15.890 --> 16:22.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the, in other words, stories that really point to the very questions of life itself.
[16:22.730 --> 16:25.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's all very well, I think, to bring in those questions.
[16:25.690 --> 16:34.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: But there also, I think, needs to be some kind of education in ways in which we can be with those questions and allow those questions to be real for us.
[16:34.430 --> 16:36.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, that's what you'd call practice.
[16:36.430 --> 16:36.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[16:37.530 --> 16:48.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Practice, meditation, we don't even have to use the word meditation, but cultivating a skill to be still and to be quiet rather than to be active and to be busy.
[16:48.830 --> 16:49.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: And...
[16:49.190 --> 16:50.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, go ahead.
[16:50.750 --> 17:00.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our education system seems to be almost entirely designed towards being active, to being busy, and to, as it were, achieving certain levels of acquisition of knowledge.
[17:00.890 --> 17:03.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: And to engaging only a part of yourself.
[17:03.430 --> 17:06.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Only engaging, well, the intellect, effectively.
[17:06.650 --> 17:14.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's not really what has recently been called the cultivation of an emotional intelligence or a spiritual intelligence.
[17:14.670 --> 17:17.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that, I think, is really what is lacking.
[17:17.490 --> 17:20.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Engaging the intellect, would you say that's a good...
[17:20.790 --> 17:20.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[17:21.130 --> 17:23.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I don't think it is, so I shouldn't even phrase the question that way.
[17:23.850 --> 17:27.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: That does not seem like a way to build character.
[17:28.430 --> 17:29.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't think it does.
[17:29.650 --> 17:33.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: And particularly for people who are not, as it were, temperamentally intellectual.
[17:34.470 --> 17:35.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are...
[17:35.490 --> 17:39.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: For people who are, then I think that can be a very enriching and very valuable way.
[17:39.770 --> 17:44.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it more or less privileges a certain type of person, the intellectual.
[17:45.170 --> 17:45.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: It...
[17:45.510 --> 17:53.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our system devalues people who are primarily relating to life through their feelings, through their emotions, through their intuitions.
[17:53.310 --> 17:59.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: And those capacities are, as it were, subordinated entirely to the preeminence of intellect.
[18:00.030 --> 18:18.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, sitting with, living with, facing, confronting the questions of, of who am I, what, what is, what is it to be a human being, those are certainly not going to show up in the increasingly standardized dispensing of complex data that schools represent.
[18:18.490 --> 18:24.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, and nor can they be assessed in any way that could be done through an exam system.
[18:24.710 --> 18:26.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can't, as it were, become an expert in that.
[18:27.030 --> 18:28.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can't test it.
[18:28.690 --> 18:30.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't think we could have national standards?
[18:30.950 --> 18:31.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think so.
[18:32.030 --> 18:38.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well then, and yet, on the one hand, there's a call for national standards in this country from all sides.
[18:38.890 --> 18:43.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: And on the other, there's a bemoaning about, essentially, bad character.
[18:43.830 --> 18:45.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what crime is all about.
[18:45.330 --> 18:49.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what family values talk is all about.
[18:49.490 --> 18:56.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a, a, a widespread sense that character is, is deficient.
[18:56.550 --> 18:59.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a loss of, of good character, good habits.
[18:59.670 --> 19:09.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: And on the other hand, there seems to be a complete, um, confusion about how to actually, I don't know if the word is instill character.
[19:09.470 --> 19:18.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: That has a kind of a, a Catholic ring to it, authoritarian ring, or be, or create a context where character can naturally evolve.
[19:19.730 --> 19:29.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, could it be also that in emphasizing the intellect in the educational process, we are, as it were, excluding character to some degree.
[19:29.850 --> 19:44.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: That if we could find a way of educating in which all aspects of the person were addressed and, um, somehow nurtured, then I think we would have the foundation for character.
[19:44.810 --> 19:46.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, what is character anyway?
[19:46.210 --> 19:50.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's, it's not something you can, as it were, program people with.
[19:50.290 --> 20:09.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think character emerges out of an experience of the fullness of one's life rather than feeling oneself boxed into some compartment and particularly if one, is not intellectually inclined, then a very artificial compartment in terms of who one is that understandably will lead to some kind of rebellion,
[20:09.990 --> 20:14.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: some kind of alienation from what is expected of you.
[20:14.590 --> 20:34.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that, I think it's a question of coming down to those very basic experiences we all have of being in a body, being with emotions, being with feelings, being able to be still with that, being able to accept what's going on, being able to acknowledge and just rejoice in a way the fact that we are here at all and that is mysterious.
[20:34.870 --> 20:37.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's take up this basic question.
[20:38.130 --> 20:41.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Being here, it's fragile.
[20:41.450 --> 20:49.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's durable on one hand, but just walk outside, you're hit by a car, the wrong kind of a microbe, we're very sick.
[20:49.430 --> 20:55.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, fear is not something that, well, of course I'm fearful.
[20:55.930 --> 20:57.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, how do we get at fear?
[20:58.110 --> 20:59.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think...
[20:59.350 --> 21:05.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are you promising that through meditation we're going to have, fear won't be such a big deal?
[21:05.950 --> 21:06.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Possibly.
[21:07.390 --> 21:09.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take, for example, the whole issue of death.
[21:10.090 --> 21:12.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, this is something that is not addressed in the school system.
[21:13.950 --> 21:17.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody, all the kids presumably know they're going to die at some point.
[21:17.250 --> 21:36.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the whole reality of death, the acknowledgement that life entails death, the fact that one's life is not just about some achievement of some kind of endless scale of success and ambition, but is one that will ultimately and inevitably end in one's not being here at all.
[21:37.370 --> 21:46.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Could we find ways in education to actually open children to that wholeness of life, which includes death?
[21:46.730 --> 21:57.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: That, I think, would already begin to touch on some of the very deepest anxieties that human beings experience, both as children and as they grow older.
[21:57.630 --> 22:12.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And yet, there's no context, there's no structure in our system whereby we can really educate people to be with those anxieties and to be with those fears and to, as it were, really accept themselves in that totality.
[22:13.050 --> 22:16.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that, too, could have something to do with character, as it's called.
[22:17.010 --> 22:25.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that, I think, is the strength of, say, some of the religious traditions, Catholicism or whatever, is that there is that much stronger sense of death.
[22:25.270 --> 22:29.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: There is that sense that this is not the only experience we'll ever have.
[22:30.250 --> 22:31.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that is so lost now.
[22:32.050 --> 22:32.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[22:32.510 --> 22:34.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, this is not the only experience we'll ever have.
[22:34.930 --> 22:40.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you're talking about life after death, how do you deal with this issue of dying?
[22:42.030 --> 22:48.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I would not deal with it in terms of trying to construct some theory of what it is that happens after death.
[22:49.050 --> 23:06.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: My own idea is, in fact, that by whatever theories we have as to what happens after death, be it a theory of reincarnation, or be it a theory of entering a Christian paradise, or be it a theory of everything simply stopping and there being nothing, that all of those are theories,
[23:07.070 --> 23:11.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: all of those are conceptual devices to deal with what is essentially mysterious.
[23:12.370 --> 23:19.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think all those views, whether eternalistic or nihilistic, are in some way a denial of death.
[23:19.950 --> 23:22.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: That death is the great mystery.
[23:22.870 --> 23:31.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: And by trying to contain it with any human theory, we have, as it were, locked it into a category of the intellect.
[23:31.990 --> 23:40.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that may be consoling, and it may be satisfying in some way, but I wonder if it really does address the reality of death.
[23:41.090 --> 23:41.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[23:41.550 --> 23:42.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: The ending of life.
[23:42.450 --> 23:52.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so if we're not going to be consoled by some construct of what's in store for us, how does one do with the fear of death?
[23:52.490 --> 23:53.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's certainly a very real fear.
[23:54.310 --> 24:08.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it has to do with learning to accept the unknown, learning to accept that our lives and our deaths are not things that we can predict, are not things that we can have any kind of rational constraint over.
[24:08.950 --> 24:13.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And once more, learning to simply be still with what is.
[24:13.150 --> 24:32.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: If we can learn to be accepting of the mystery of this moment, which contains an extraordinary unknown, the meditation, I don't want to keep harking back to meditation, but whatever we call it, this capacity to be still and to be open with what is now is already an acceptance of what is unknown.
[24:32.630 --> 24:48.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: As the mind becomes more still, as we begin to look more carefully, just say, at the feelings in our own body, we realise more and more that what we're taken for granted as familiar is, in another sense, simultaneously profoundly unfamiliar.
[24:48.270 --> 24:54.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: The very fact that we are here, the very fact that we exist, is already utterly unfamiliar in a sense.
[24:55.030 --> 24:56.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that is already the unknown.
[24:57.810 --> 25:07.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Western education is so much about seeking to contain everything within the known, and to define everything as knowable.
[25:07.550 --> 25:15.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a flight from the challenge of life as mystery, the challenge of life as unknown.
[25:15.650 --> 25:15.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: unknown.
[25:16.730 --> 25:18.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: How about pain?
[25:19.090 --> 25:23.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, you're talking now about the fear of death, the fear of the unknown.
[25:23.990 --> 25:25.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Pain is very clear.
[25:26.130 --> 25:26.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[25:26.550 --> 25:27.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not pleasant.
[25:27.550 --> 25:29.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: It can be excruciating.
[25:29.190 --> 25:29.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[25:30.270 --> 25:31.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: How do you deal with that?
[25:33.510 --> 25:35.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, pain too is...
[25:36.610 --> 25:39.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: There is, of course, the sheer physicality of pain, which is unpleasant.
[25:40.190 --> 25:50.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think there's also an enormous element that we, as it were, add on to that by resisting it, by fearing it, by hating it.
[25:50.450 --> 25:58.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: The more that we, as it were, seek to distance ourselves from it, to deny it, the more, in fact, paradoxically, that actually intensifies it.
[25:58.470 --> 26:20.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, again, I think an educational process that would actually address the issue of pain, that would allow us to, as it were, be able to be with pain rather than to encourage this instinctive aversion to it or this instinctive idea that if there's pain we can find some way to nullify it,
[26:20.790 --> 26:24.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: numb it, tranquilize it through drugs or whatever it is.
[26:24.370 --> 26:32.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: That very strategy, I think, is one that serves to make pain all that more unacceptable, all that more deniable.
[26:32.650 --> 26:36.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Didn't Buddha start with the experience that life is suffering?
[26:37.130 --> 26:43.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Buddha started with the experience, well, life is suffering is not something the Buddha himself actually said.
[26:43.310 --> 26:46.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: The first truth of the Buddha is there is anguish.
[26:46.710 --> 26:48.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: I prefer the word anguish to suffering.
[26:48.570 --> 26:49.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Suffering is too broad.
[26:50.350 --> 27:01.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's an acknowledgement and an acceptance and an understanding that life is imperfect, that we, the very fact of death, for example, is an indication of imperfection.
[27:01.590 --> 27:07.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: That, that is where we begin, yes, with the acceptance and the acknowledgement of anguish.
[27:07.750 --> 27:11.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't mean that we passively say, oh, well, it's too bad, it's the way things are.
[27:12.130 --> 27:30.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, it's really a learning to be with anguish, and that's, let's say, the existential anguish of existence, as well as the fears and the pains that we go through in life, to, as it were, enter into a more accepting and creative relationship with pain.
[27:31.290 --> 27:32.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is where we begin, yes.
[27:32.890 --> 27:55.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, is this going to lead to some kind of activism, or, as was often put in the books that I read about Buddhism in my earlier years, just passivity, okay, get into one's own mind, and people dying and starving and social injustice, all that's okay, because you're dealing with all these inner states of your own mind.
[27:55.510 --> 28:10.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that is, of course, a rather stereotype view of Buddhism that is still very prevalent, but it comes very much from the ways in which Buddhism was negatively perceived very much in the 19th century by both Christian missionaries and by Western rationalists.
[28:12.230 --> 28:24.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you look at this history of Buddhism, there certainly have been periods in which Buddhism has fallen prey to introversion and so on, but also periods in which Buddhism has been at the forefront of social and political change in Asia.
[28:25.030 --> 28:31.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: The question of anguish, really, then, is about starting with the immediate personal experience of that.
[28:31.850 --> 28:44.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: But as one's experience of anguish becomes, as it were, more accepted, one begins to realize that it's not just my anguish, that suffering, that pain, is beyond the domain of me.
[28:45.050 --> 28:46.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: And there comes the compassion.
[28:46.790 --> 28:47.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly, yes.
[28:48.030 --> 28:50.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and on that note, we're going to have to stop.
[28:50.790 --> 28:52.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Stephen Batchelor, thank you very much.
[28:53.010 --> 28:53.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Jerry.
[28:53.970 --> 28:59.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Author of Buddhism Without Beliefs, The Faith to Doubt, The Awakening of the West, and Jim Bennett for Engineering.
[29:00.090 --> 29:02.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much and Mo Irwin for producing.
[29:02.570 --> 29:02.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good night.
[29:24.390 --> 29:29.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: On August 16th, join us in a walk and demonstration through Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn.
[29:30.050 --> 29:33.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: A walk to honor our political prisoners and prisoners of war.
[29:33.490 --> 29:42.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: Mumia Abu-Jamal, Matulu Shakur, Bashir Hamid, Abdul Haq, and many others fought for community control of schools.
[29:42.490 --> 29:43.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: They fought for safe streets.
[29:44.230 --> 29:48.070]  [SPEAKER_00]: They fought against drug dealers, and they fought against police brutality.
[29:48.550 --> 29:51.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: They struggled for the liberation of the black nation.
[29:51.770 --> 29:58.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: Participants will assemble at Fulton Park, located at Fulton Street and Stuyvesant Avenue, opposite Boys and Girls High School.
[29:59.070 --> 30:04.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: For more information, call 718-949-5153.
[30:04.130 --> 30:08.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's 718-949-5153.
[30:08.250 --> 30:11.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: Join us in a walk to honor our political prisoners of war.
[30:12.170 --> 30:20.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: This announcement is a public service of WBAI Radio on behalf of the Malcolm X Commemoration Committee, a non-profit community organization.
[30:33.100 --> 30:42.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Building Bridges Union Summer Radio brings you news of struggles around the country this summer, featuring the participation of AFL-CIO, Union Summer Youth and Senior Activists.
[30:42.960 --> 30:54.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: On August 11th, we'll report on the Cincinnati Temp Action Project, Fighting for Justice for Temporary Workers, plus our interview with labor humorist Michael Moore, author of Downsize This and producer of TV Nation.
[30:55.240 --> 31:00.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: So join Building Bridges for Union Summer Radio, Monday, August 11th from 2 to 3 p.m.
[31:00.480 --> 31:04.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: over at WBAI, produced by Mimi Rosenberg and Ken Nash.
[31:15.860 --> 31:18.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: And the time is exactly 8 o'clock.
[31:18.800 --> 31:20.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: You're listening to WBAI in New York.
[31:21.080 --> 31:23.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Time once again for Off the Hook.
[31:27.460 --> 31:29.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, this is when the theme would normally be playing.
[31:29.860 --> 31:35.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: However, due to the excitement of the last couple of weeks, somehow we managed to lose it.
[31:35.760 --> 31:36.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: We don't know where it is.
[31:37.080 --> 31:46.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: I think it's someplace in the station, but a search of three different studios and a few people that I suspected of something has turned up nothing.
[31:46.380 --> 31:47.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: But we're continuing the investigation.
[31:48.240 --> 31:51.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: In the meantime, please, a moment of silence for the lost theme.
[31:59.220 --> 31:59.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Right then.
[32:00.100 --> 32:00.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, here we are.
[32:00.920 --> 32:02.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[32:02.100 --> 32:03.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: The program is Off the Hook.
[32:03.680 --> 32:16.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: And this is our post, post beyond hope, if that sounds weird enough for you, post beyond hope show where we talk about all the things that happened to us over the past weekend.
[32:16.360 --> 32:19.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: And hopefully you were involved in that too because, boy, it was fun.
[32:20.140 --> 32:20.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: It really was.
[32:21.820 --> 32:22.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Wow.
[32:22.780 --> 32:25.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm still kind of in awe of the whole thing.
[32:26.300 --> 32:31.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: But I think we got about 2,000 people into the puck building over the entire weekend.
[32:32.100 --> 32:35.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: And most of them, vast majority of them, seemed to have a really good time.
[32:35.600 --> 32:40.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: And there were a lot of really fascinating lectures, seminars, panels of all sorts.
[32:41.360 --> 32:53.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: We managed to get, for the first time ever, Kevin Mitnick's lawyer speaking to a crowd, telling the story about what happened with his case and where it's all going and what's happened in the past.
[32:54.460 --> 32:56.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: We also had Bernie S.
[32:56.980 --> 33:05.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: and Phiber Optik on the same stage but separated by a partition because they're not allowed to actually speak to each other.
[33:05.560 --> 33:08.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: So it's kind of tricky doing that but we managed to pull it off.
[33:08.840 --> 33:11.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: The two of them managed to tell their stories.
[33:11.280 --> 33:12.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: Very interesting stories.
[33:13.220 --> 33:14.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: Very interesting things going on there.
[33:16.660 --> 33:27.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: The TAP reunion took place on Saturday about, I think, about 20, 25 people which is about the right size that we should have for something like that went to Eddie's and talked about old times.
[33:27.700 --> 33:33.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Cheshire Catalyst was there and he was very happy with that whole thing.
[33:35.900 --> 33:36.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let's see.
[33:36.720 --> 33:39.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: We had all kinds of other panels.
[33:39.300 --> 33:43.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: The panel on the MetroCard which you might have seen on the front page of yesterday's New York Times.
[33:43.740 --> 33:47.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: Boy, I mean, I wasn't even expecting this kind of coverage.
[33:47.320 --> 33:48.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: We're on ABC News.
[33:49.700 --> 33:50.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let me see that.
[33:50.380 --> 33:51.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let me see that paper here.
[33:51.200 --> 33:52.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, the front page.
[33:52.400 --> 33:55.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: The front page of the New York Times Monday, August 11th.
[33:56.200 --> 33:57.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: What galls a hacker most?
[33:58.000 --> 33:58.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: The MetroCard.
[33:58.780 --> 34:03.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now, it was amazing because the MetroCard panel is only an hour out of the whole thing.
[34:03.480 --> 34:08.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, we had about 24 hours of panels alone because it ran from about 12 to 12.
[34:08.500 --> 34:11.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Actually, a little more than that because we had some things going on on Friday as well.
[34:12.540 --> 34:18.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: But the MetroCard was only about an hour but that was what the media seemed to like the most.
[34:18.140 --> 34:20.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: I guess because it's local to New York.
[34:20.440 --> 34:30.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: It affects all New Yorkers who ride the trains and it was just kind of neat for them to watch us talk about this.
[34:30.940 --> 34:32.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: So that made the front page.
[34:32.660 --> 34:34.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was a very interesting panel too.
[34:36.140 --> 34:44.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: The most amazing thing for me, I mean, for the whole weekend was the fact that Dith Prawn showed up to take the photographs of the MetroCard panel.
[34:44.920 --> 34:59.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now, if you don't know who Dith Prawn is, you have to watch The Killing Field because that's the guy that made it through the whole Pol Pot horror and, you know, crawled out of the country after, you know, seeing millions and millions of his fellow countrymen be murdered.
[35:00.580 --> 35:03.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's the guy that the film was about.
[35:03.560 --> 35:04.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: A true hero.
[35:04.800 --> 35:11.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: And he's the one who shows up camera in hand working for the New York Times to take a picture of us.
[35:11.300 --> 35:13.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was very surreal.
[35:13.940 --> 35:18.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: But that was just, I guess, the mood of the whole thing.
[35:18.840 --> 35:19.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: What else do we have?
[35:19.740 --> 35:22.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: We had a radio show, obviously.
[35:22.420 --> 35:27.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't know how many people listened to the radio show that broadcasts between 6.30 and 8.30.
[35:27.760 --> 35:32.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: I was very surprised by how flawlessly that went.
[35:32.120 --> 35:37.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, we had a piece of equipment known as a Zephyr unit that we were able to find.
[35:37.920 --> 35:45.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, these things are worth like 10 grand and we were able to just find one at a place that rents them at a really, really low price, I might add.
[35:46.140 --> 35:54.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: We had one at the radio station and we were able to link the two of them together over an ISDN line which we had installed down there at the Puck building just for that purpose.
[35:54.340 --> 35:55.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: And it worked great.
[35:55.820 --> 36:01.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: It sounded like we were right here in the studio except for the 500 people so we kept laughing and applauding and things like that.
[36:02.040 --> 36:06.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: We had all kinds of neat people on there including Major Hacking.
[36:06.620 --> 36:15.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, Major John Hacking out in the Hamptons who runs a cookie company makes Major Hacking cookies which were a big hit over the weekend.
[36:16.200 --> 36:18.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: That was fascinating.
[36:19.080 --> 36:19.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: Fascinating.
[36:19.760 --> 36:22.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: A major in the army and makes cookies and his last name is Hacking.
[36:23.740 --> 36:26.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's the kind of weekend it was just full of weirdness.
[36:27.780 --> 36:36.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: And Phiber Optik and Tom from England who unfortunately had to go back to England joined us to talk about GSM phones Omnipoint things like that.
[36:36.720 --> 36:41.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: In fact, we're supposed to call Fiber on the phone right about now.
[36:41.760 --> 36:42.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let's see if we can reach him.
[36:42.860 --> 36:49.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: I should point out though I should point out this was a weekend of nightmares concerning Omnipoint and I'm taking the gloves off.
[36:49.680 --> 36:49.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: Alright?
[36:50.340 --> 36:59.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: A lot of other people are too because Omnipoint just continually lets us down in so many ways when you're trying to either make a phone call or receive a phone call.
[36:59.820 --> 37:11.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: I would have to say walking around the streets of Little Italy and Soho and places like that mind you, not inside buildings you don't expect the phones to work inside I guess because the signal can't penetrate the brick.
[37:11.980 --> 37:18.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: But walking around the street you'd get a phone call you'd pick it up sometimes you'd even see the number of the person calling you but you couldn't hear them.
[37:18.560 --> 37:20.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: They could hear you you couldn't hear them.
[37:20.280 --> 37:32.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: There's a whole section of St. Mark's that you can make calls but you can't hear you so it's a great way to prank people but not a really good way to use a telephone.
[37:35.340 --> 37:40.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's very frustrating considering that you wind up paying for each and every one of those calls too.
[37:40.360 --> 37:53.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: But there was one thing that almost made the whole Mitnick thing not happen was the fact that Kevin Mitnick's lawyer was supposed to leave the phone number he was reachable at which was at a remote mountain cabin somewhere in California because he was on vacation.
[37:53.000 --> 38:03.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: he was supposed to leave that on my phone number which went forward to voicemail if I wasn't around for whatever reason or if I was standing in a particular location where Omnipoint couldn't reach.
[38:04.920 --> 38:13.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: And lo and behold Sunday came and their voicemail system just went down just was down not available at all you couldn't do anything with it you couldn't access your messages.
[38:13.820 --> 38:30.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: So his message was sitting in there and I couldn't get to it to find out what the phone number was or at least I thought his message was sitting there turns out it wasn't but it could have been and I was trying to find out you know what this number was not knowing the status made things very very difficult.
[38:31.280 --> 38:37.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: And then of course you try to call them and it's it's that old you know 45 minute wait on hold.
[38:38.780 --> 38:40.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: But that's that's another thing.
[38:40.240 --> 38:41.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let's see if we can reach Fiber.
[38:42.000 --> 38:56.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: The reason I brought all this up was because we're trying to reach him over his Omnipoint phone which for one reason or another uh oh that was my fault for one reason or another might be unreachable so
[39:00.940 --> 39:10.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: okay now I have to mute these out okay here we go Phiber Optik hopefully he'll be joining us soon
[39:15.790 --> 39:17.370]  [SPEAKER_17]: It should go right...
[39:17.370 --> 39:21.370]  [SPEAKER_17]: It should be ringing him somewhere, wherever he is in the city.
[39:28.580 --> 39:29.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bye-bye.
[39:30.820 --> 39:31.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Fiber?
[39:31.760 --> 39:32.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hello?
[39:32.580 --> 39:33.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: Fiber, are you there?
[39:34.100 --> 39:34.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Speaking.
[39:34.940 --> 39:36.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Fiber, this is not Fiber.
[39:36.200 --> 39:38.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: Please put Fiber on the radio, please.
[39:38.540 --> 39:40.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, Fiber passed the phone to me.
[39:40.960 --> 39:43.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, you're not Fiber, so I don't know why he did that.
[39:43.500 --> 39:45.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: Please put Fiber on.
[39:45.580 --> 39:46.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[39:46.620 --> 39:47.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hello?
[39:47.060 --> 39:50.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, please put Fiber on, stop the nonsense.
[39:50.600 --> 39:51.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, which Fiber?
[39:51.920 --> 39:56.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have Phiber Optik here, we have Optics Fiber, and Fruit and Fiber.
[39:57.740 --> 39:59.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: And Fiber Brand.
[39:59.220 --> 40:00.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: And Fiber Brand.
[40:01.260 --> 40:02.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Nobody cussed, this is the radio.
[40:03.180 --> 40:03.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hold on.
[40:04.020 --> 40:04.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, Fiber?
[40:05.000 --> 40:05.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Fiber?
[40:05.980 --> 40:06.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Fiber.
[40:07.020 --> 40:07.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, this is Fiber.
[40:08.900 --> 40:09.580]  Hi, this is Fiber.
[40:09.660 --> 40:10.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Who's speaking?
[40:10.840 --> 40:11.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, Fiber, are you there?
[40:12.160 --> 40:12.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is Fiber.
[40:13.440 --> 40:14.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, hi, how are you?
[40:16.140 --> 40:17.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, what's going on here?
[40:17.400 --> 40:18.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: Who is, who is actually here?
[40:19.360 --> 40:20.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, this is, this is Fiber.
[40:21.040 --> 40:21.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[40:21.860 --> 40:22.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is the original Fiber.
[40:23.680 --> 40:24.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[40:25.660 --> 40:34.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, well, while you guys are getting your act together, I think we're going to talk in the studio some more with some of the people that were instrumental in making this thing happen.
[40:35.140 --> 40:36.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, unless you don't want to talk to the real Fiber.
[40:37.000 --> 40:38.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: There he is, okay, okay.
[40:38.720 --> 40:39.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Fiber, where are you?
[40:39.920 --> 40:41.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, I'm in a car.
[40:41.520 --> 40:42.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: You're in a car?
[40:42.080 --> 40:47.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, and, uh, we're driving away from a client, and we're going to get some dinner.
[40:48.140 --> 40:50.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, uh, what, are you in this state, or are you somewhere else?
[40:51.240 --> 40:54.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, we're, we are in the Northeastern Corridor.
[40:55.320 --> 40:56.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: What in the world does that mean?
[40:57.200 --> 40:59.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, we're, we're in the vicinity of New York.
[41:00.000 --> 41:00.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[41:00.880 --> 41:04.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I can't specifically tell you where, for our job is covert.
[41:04.300 --> 41:15.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, no, I, I, we understand that, and those of us who, who follow the international, uh, headlines know that, you know, you guys have to keep your agendas to yourselves until the moment to strike, or whatever.
[41:16.080 --> 41:22.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: However it works there, but tell us, let's, let's keep our conversation focused on, on Beyond Hope, which took place this last weekend.
[41:22.140 --> 41:23.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now, you were there, were you not?
[41:23.420 --> 41:24.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, I was at Beyond Hope.
[41:25.100 --> 41:26.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, you remember all the things that happened, right?
[41:27.000 --> 41:29.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, yeah, I remember each and every one.
[41:29.160 --> 41:30.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, it was, uh, it was interesting, wasn't it?
[41:30.900 --> 41:32.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was, uh, it was different?
[41:32.220 --> 41:32.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was fun?
[41:33.220 --> 41:35.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I don't know if it was different, but it was definitely fun.
[41:35.960 --> 41:37.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, yeah, we have fun all the time.
[41:37.340 --> 41:38.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was different because I wasn't at the first one.
[41:38.420 --> 41:39.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: Right, that's, that's true.
[41:39.460 --> 41:42.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: The first one, 1994, the Workers on Planet Earth Conference.
[41:42.840 --> 41:44.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I was kind of incapacitated at the time.
[41:44.720 --> 41:45.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: You were in prison, yes.
[41:45.980 --> 41:46.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: Exactly.
[41:53.420 --> 41:58.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: In the, um, in the prisoner panel, in the GSM panel, in the radio show, of course, on Saturday night.
[41:58.620 --> 41:58.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[41:59.160 --> 42:00.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, was there anything else?
[42:01.180 --> 42:04.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, the press panel, which there wasn't really any press.
[42:05.040 --> 42:06.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: There wasn't much press, no.
[42:06.420 --> 42:07.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: There, there wasn't too much of that.
[42:08.120 --> 42:10.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, uh, how would you assess the crowd?
[42:10.900 --> 42:12.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: How would you assess the whole mood of the place?
[42:13.240 --> 42:20.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, well, it was definitely a, uh, a wide variety of, uh, people from various walks of life.
[42:20.700 --> 42:20.960]  Uh-huh.
[42:20.960 --> 42:20.960]  Uh-huh.
[42:22.260 --> 42:24.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, they, they seemed to be in, generally, in good cheer.
[42:25.040 --> 42:25.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: They were.
[42:25.740 --> 42:27.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: This is a, this is a great crowd.
[42:27.160 --> 42:27.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean...
[42:27.620 --> 42:27.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[42:28.220 --> 42:38.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: My, my, my heartiest of thanks go out to the people who showed up and, and really just, uh, expressed the true hacker spirit of, uh, curiosity and, and, you know, openness to things.
[42:39.360 --> 42:45.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: And it was just, it really got to meet a lot of new people and see a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of interesting, uh, interesting faces.
[42:46.400 --> 42:47.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now, did you see all the press we got?
[42:48.600 --> 42:50.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, there was, well, I haven't seen, uh, too much.
[42:52.400 --> 42:55.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, uh, from what I've been hearing, there's been quite a bit.
[42:55.200 --> 42:58.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, you, you saw the front page of the New York Times yesterday, didn't you?
[42:58.620 --> 43:00.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, yeah, unfortunately, I heard about that.
[43:01.540 --> 43:03.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: Why is it unfortunate that you heard about it?
[43:03.760 --> 43:07.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I thought the, uh, I thought the one on the front page of the New York Times, uh, was the hacker.
[43:08.360 --> 43:10.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: You're starting to sound like Darth Vader, so, uh, I don't know.
[43:10.540 --> 43:11.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[43:11.460 --> 43:12.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, well, that's true.
[43:12.500 --> 43:16.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're moving on the expressway in a car, so it's possible we might get cut off at any time.
[43:16.700 --> 43:17.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes.
[43:17.420 --> 43:19.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, being the nature of modern technology and such.
[43:20.440 --> 43:21.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Being the nature of modern technology.
[43:21.840 --> 43:23.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, I, I, I can see that.
[43:23.880 --> 43:28.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, well, uh, no, um, you were saying, you, you, you saw the headline, or you heard about it?
[43:29.140 --> 43:33.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: I thought that the, the one that was on the front page of the Times was the, uh, derogatory one.
[43:33.560 --> 43:34.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, actually, I don't think it was.
[43:35.140 --> 43:36.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: Not, it wasn't that derogatory.
[43:36.380 --> 43:38.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: I thought it, it actually captured quite a, quite a bit.
[43:38.640 --> 43:41.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, about, it was, it was mostly about the MetroCard.
[43:42.400 --> 43:43.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, okay.
[43:43.280 --> 43:43.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[43:43.480 --> 43:44.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I haven't actually seen that.
[43:44.900 --> 43:48.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: The one, the one that, uh, the one I did see was the one that was in the, uh, Times Magazine.
[43:49.360 --> 43:51.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, there was that one, too, the Times Magazine.
[43:51.760 --> 43:52.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[43:52.340 --> 43:52.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Right.
[43:53.220 --> 43:56.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, um, uh, yeah, there was that one.
[43:56.620 --> 44:00.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, there was also, uh, ABC News on, on television on Sunday had one.
[44:02.200 --> 44:03.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, I think he's gone.
[44:03.560 --> 44:04.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, he's gone.
[44:05.640 --> 44:06.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's Omnipoint for you.
[44:08.220 --> 44:10.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, I just dropped my Omnipoint phone.
[44:10.120 --> 44:15.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, I have an Omnipoint phone, but, you know, it's not going to last much longer, I can tell you that, because it's been so frustrating using these things.
[44:16.020 --> 44:16.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: Listen to these ones.
[44:16.820 --> 44:20.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hackers Interface in New York, three-day conference, ones to dispel myths.
[44:21.400 --> 44:23.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's a confusing time to be a hacker.
[44:23.220 --> 44:35.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: On the one hand, computer enthusiasts who thrill to breach security, bypass firewalls, and break sophisticated encryption are portrayed as nefarious geniuses who could bring down the nation's banking or military systems with a flick of the return key.
[44:35.440 --> 44:41.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: On the other, they're courted by corporations to share their knowledge, their favor curried by a government who wants to know their secrets.
[44:43.060 --> 44:47.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's inevitably led to a bit of an image crisis, the consultant criminal conundrum.
[44:48.000 --> 44:57.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: The organizers of this weekend's Beyond Hope addressed those issues and more, as the once shadowy leagues of hackers whose ranks grow every day go mainstream.
[44:57.680 --> 44:59.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now, how do we go mainstream?
[44:59.600 --> 45:01.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't think we went mainstream.
[45:02.240 --> 45:12.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: More than 1,800 cyber rebels, yes, that's you, rebels, cyber rebels, gathered at downtown New York's airy, artsy, puck building.
[45:12.460 --> 45:13.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, it is airy.
[45:13.440 --> 45:14.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: It is artsy.
[45:14.220 --> 45:15.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: And it's the puck building, all right.
[45:15.660 --> 45:17.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: So I guess that's kind of okay.
[45:18.160 --> 45:25.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: To participate in three days of panels and discussions about the future of three days of panels and discussions about the future.
[45:25.560 --> 45:28.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: I guess it prints twice when you have two pages.
[45:29.180 --> 45:31.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, well, they didn't talk about the panels.
[45:31.180 --> 45:33.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: They talked about the future of the 21st century hacker.
[45:34.680 --> 45:37.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: Panels include one on the public's perception of the culture.
[45:37.800 --> 45:40.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: Another was titled, Where Hackers and Criminals Collide.
[45:40.760 --> 45:48.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: A Sunday session, expected to be popular, and obviously, after this article came out, was called Just Prisoners.
[45:48.720 --> 45:51.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's the one that Fiber was involved in.
[45:51.400 --> 45:52.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: In fact, let's not forget about Fiber.
[45:53.020 --> 45:53.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let's see if we can reach him again.
[46:00.800 --> 46:08.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, of course, one of the most interesting ones was the social engineering panel, but we'll get to that in just a moment.
[46:10.210 --> 46:12.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hacking into anyone else's computers is illegal.
[46:12.600 --> 46:13.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's indisputable.
[46:13.540 --> 46:16.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: So a whole new lexicon is building around the activities...
[46:18.320 --> 46:19.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...of these computer whizzes.
[46:21.820 --> 46:22.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, this is Mark.
[46:23.120 --> 46:23.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not around...
[46:23.620 --> 46:26.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: I guess he's in that Omnipoint unfriendly land.
[46:27.080 --> 46:29.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: So we'll try again in about ten minutes, I suppose.
[46:30.120 --> 46:32.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: Breaking into a military computer isn't that at all.
[46:32.400 --> 46:34.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's exposing security flaws.
[46:34.750 --> 46:36.770]  [SPEAKER_17]: And enough with the term hacker already.
[46:37.230 --> 46:38.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: They're technology experts.
[46:39.480 --> 46:41.670]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hackers should not be a pejorative set of bench.
[46:53.000 --> 46:55.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: Appearing right now, at this very moment, on another radio station.
[46:58.040 --> 46:59.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: We'll give you a hint as to what radio station it was.
[47:00.100 --> 47:01.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: They had a panel, too.
[47:01.340 --> 47:03.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was a radio station that had their own panel.
[47:03.600 --> 47:06.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: So if you can get them, then he's on there right now.
[47:06.340 --> 47:07.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: Competing with us.
[47:07.060 --> 47:07.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: How do you like that?
[47:08.680 --> 47:11.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Anyway, Pam went on to say we're portrayed as bad, evil.
[47:11.560 --> 47:13.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: We've been overhyped as scammers, thieves.
[47:13.440 --> 47:16.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: All we are is a bunch of people who are interested in technology...
[47:16.200 --> 47:18.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...who want to get our hands around it, get into the middle of it.
[47:20.240 --> 47:27.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: But a prisoner panel member, fiber-optic, well-known even by laypeople for his exploits...
[47:27.120 --> 47:29.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...has broken into AT&T systems, among others.
[47:29.200 --> 47:30.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: He's a convicted criminal.
[47:32.060 --> 47:37.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: For the convention, organizers freely adopted the logo of the Bell Telephone Companies...
[47:37.100 --> 47:38.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...for banners and T-shirts.
[47:39.120 --> 47:40.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hey, my phone's ringing.
[47:41.760 --> 47:46.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm going to send this one away because I don't want to talk to people right now.
[47:46.740 --> 47:49.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, I do want to talk to people, just not, you know, on my phone.
[47:50.620 --> 47:55.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Said Finkel, the Big Bells did not seem to mind the fact that we adopted their logos.
[47:55.800 --> 47:59.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's kind of symbolic of the unusually cooperative relationship these days...
[47:59.060 --> 48:00.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...hackers have with their targets.
[48:02.460 --> 48:04.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Ninex hasn't complained, Finkel said.
[48:04.560 --> 48:07.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: They've given us free ISDN lines to use during the conference.
[48:07.700 --> 48:08.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was a very nice gift.
[48:08.640 --> 48:10.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: They'd rather have hackers happy than unhappy.
[48:12.160 --> 48:13.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: And they know what's good for them, yes.
[48:15.620 --> 48:17.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, we also had hacking the Big Apple.
[48:18.140 --> 48:19.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Garth Brooks is a hacker.
[48:19.380 --> 48:23.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's what Emmanuel Goldstein, editor-in-chief of 2600 Magazine, would have you believe.
[48:23.300 --> 48:27.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: According to Goldstein, the Country Popsters free concert held in New York's Central Park Thursday...
[48:27.840 --> 48:31.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...was really the opening gig for 2600's Beyond Hope Hacker Conference...
[48:32.140 --> 48:33.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...which kicks off at 6 p.m.
[48:34.060 --> 48:34.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: tonight.
[48:34.420 --> 48:35.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: This obviously was written on Friday.
[48:36.160 --> 48:40.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: We thought the park would be good for him, says a droll Goldstein.
[48:41.180 --> 48:41.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's droll?
[48:42.080 --> 48:43.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't like that description.
[48:43.720 --> 48:49.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: Deadpan aside, Goldstein says he's expecting hackers, newbies, feds, civilians...
[48:49.200 --> 48:53.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...who knows, maybe Garth himself to attend Beyond Hope at the historic Puck building.
[48:53.780 --> 48:58.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: This belated sequel to the 1994 Beyond Hope Conference, which was not called Beyond Hope, it was called Hope...
[48:59.940 --> 49:04.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...takes itself more seriously than Las Vegas' annual DEFCON Hackers Conference.
[49:04.160 --> 49:05.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: I never said that either.
[49:06.080 --> 49:07.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: How much more seriously?
[49:07.540 --> 49:09.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: A lot more, apparently, I said anyway.
[49:09.320 --> 49:12.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: We are not a bunch of people running around and wrecking things.
[49:12.740 --> 49:14.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't recall saying that, although it's true.
[49:14.640 --> 49:17.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: We didn't wreck anything, and we were pretty well-behaved.
[49:18.800 --> 49:23.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: Is Beyond Hope expecting DEFCON-like shenanigans, such as passing counterfeit bills?
[49:23.280 --> 49:26.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hopefully not, says NetWeasel, one of the conference organizers...
[49:26.560 --> 49:31.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...because most people really respect 2600 and Emmanuel and what he has done.
[49:32.540 --> 49:35.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: For the hacking community, this is the real stuff.
[49:35.600 --> 49:40.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Real stuff or not, Beyond Hope's homepage, which bills the three-day conference as a landmark conference...
[49:40.900 --> 49:45.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...for hackers and for every citizen of the electronic age, is a tad bombastic.
[49:47.080 --> 49:47.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, boy.
[49:48.240 --> 49:52.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: Still, judging by the weekend roster of events, Beyond Hope could match its publicity.
[49:52.940 --> 49:58.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Speakers include MSNBC columnist Brock Meeks, cryptographer Bruce Schneier, security expert Ira Winkler...
[49:58.600 --> 50:01.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...and Donald Randolph, the attorney of imprisoned hacker Kevin Mitnick.
[50:02.140 --> 50:08.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: Panel topics range from the media's portrayal of hackers to that legal and lucrative form of corporate hacking known as tiger teaming.
[50:08.660 --> 50:13.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: And off the hook, 2600's radio show will broadcast the conference live to New Yorkers on Saturday night.
[50:14.080 --> 50:17.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: The conference also has a live link to HIP-97, the Hacking in Progress conference...
[50:18.280 --> 50:20.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...occurring simultaneously in the Netherlands.
[50:20.300 --> 50:23.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: Beyond Hope had already hacked HIP-97's webpage by last night.
[50:24.740 --> 50:28.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Netweasel says, updates and pictures will be posted on the conference's homepage during the weekend.
[50:28.820 --> 50:33.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Goldstein says, Beyond Hope has received amazing support from hackers as well as local businesses and New Yorkers.
[50:34.160 --> 50:37.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: A lot of people seem to have that hacking spirit, he says, asking a lot of questions...
[50:37.800 --> 50:40.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: ...and rebelling against the people, telling them to be quiet.
[50:41.040 --> 50:42.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: That was, um...
[50:43.040 --> 50:44.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: What was this from?
[50:44.880 --> 50:46.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: They have a very badly designed...
[50:46.920 --> 50:50.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hang on, let me find your mic, Netweasel, and you can tell us what is this from.
[50:52.340 --> 50:53.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, this is from...
[50:54.400 --> 50:55.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can't tell either, can you?
[50:55.860 --> 50:57.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, that's from MSNBC, the site.
[50:57.920 --> 50:58.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is MSNBC?
[50:59.100 --> 50:59.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's MSNBC.
[50:59.860 --> 51:00.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: You can barely read it.
[51:00.560 --> 51:01.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: Where does it even say MSNBC?
[51:01.940 --> 51:02.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't see that on there anymore.
[51:03.500 --> 51:05.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, you're right, it's thesite.com.
[51:05.200 --> 51:06.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Joel Dean, I think he's the executive producer.
[51:06.960 --> 51:07.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, Joel Dean wrote this.
[51:07.560 --> 51:09.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, well, they need to work on their artwork just a little bit.
[51:09.840 --> 51:11.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's a tad bombastic, if you ask me.
[51:12.760 --> 51:13.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, boy.
[51:13.560 --> 51:17.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: Sarah, if you, uh, you designed our bombastic page, what do you think of that?
[51:17.780 --> 51:18.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, it was quite bombastic.
[51:18.980 --> 51:19.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was bombastic.
[51:19.560 --> 51:21.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was intended to be bombastic, so there you go.
[51:21.920 --> 51:23.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Ha ha, you thought it was something that we didn't want to do.
[51:23.920 --> 51:24.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, we did it anyway.
[51:25.840 --> 51:42.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, a bunch of other things, you know, I guess, uh, I guess possibly the best thing with us to do is just, um, tell people there's a lot of articles about this, and then move on to some people, because, um, people is the most important thing here, and we have a lot of people to thank and,
[51:42.180 --> 51:43.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: uh, reminisce with.
[51:43.520 --> 52:03.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, if you were at Beyond Hope, give us a call, 212-279-3400, because we'd certainly like to hear from you, and, uh, share your memories as to what happened at Beyond Hope, and what were your favorite parts, and what were your not-so-favorite parts, or anything else like that.
[52:03.600 --> 52:07.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, we also have a, a ton of people to thank, uh, as I look to my right.
[52:07.540 --> 52:09.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: Isaac, you did the video, did you not?
[52:10.080 --> 52:10.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, yes, I did.
[52:11.020 --> 52:11.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: That was incredible.
[52:11.820 --> 52:20.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, those people that were in the audience that, uh, could not see because of all the pillars in that room, having the video there with the person's face on it, I think, was a really good touch.
[52:20.900 --> 52:25.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, there's a difference between, uh, one foot square as a face and the 12 by 9 on the screen.
[52:25.500 --> 52:25.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[52:26.120 --> 52:26.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[52:26.520 --> 52:29.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, made us look like, you know, very Orwellian, speaking down to the people.
[52:30.980 --> 52:40.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: And it was good for, uh, for things like the prisoner panel, where, you know, one person would just sit there for about, you know, 45 minutes without saying a single word, because the other person was talking, and they're not supposed to even be talking to the other person,
[52:40.900 --> 52:42.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: so they can't interject and say other things.
[52:43.580 --> 52:46.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: So, uh, that was, that was, uh, very useful for that as well.
[52:47.020 --> 52:51.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: What, uh, what were some of the more fun aspects for you, and maybe some of the less fun aspects?
[52:51.420 --> 52:55.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, uh, pretty much 78 hours without sleep.
[52:55.400 --> 52:55.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, that was something.
[52:56.040 --> 52:59.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that could go under fun or not fun, depending on, uh, your personal preference.
[52:59.860 --> 53:00.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: You lost Monday, right?
[53:01.000 --> 53:01.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: I lost Monday.
[53:02.240 --> 53:07.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I went to sleep Sunday morning, eh, not Sunday morning, Sunday, well, I guess you could call it Monday morning.
[53:07.720 --> 53:08.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have no idea what time it was.
[53:09.480 --> 53:12.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I woke up Tuesday, and Monday just disappeared.
[53:13.060 --> 53:18.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm trying to redo my, uh, whole theory of the universe in order to account for the loss of Monday.
[53:18.780 --> 53:20.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, I lost pretty much all of Monday, too.
[53:20.760 --> 53:25.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: I slept for 14 hours, which, uh, that's, yeah, that's a lot of sleep.
[53:26.240 --> 53:29.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, and I think a lot of people did, too, because...
[53:30.740 --> 53:36.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Judging from the net, you know, there was sort of this, this lull, you know, where nobody really said anything for all of Monday.
[53:36.720 --> 53:42.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: And then Tuesday, all these messages started getting posted, and people started sending mail, saying, whoa, yeah, it was fun, you know, we gotta do that again sometime.
[53:42.700 --> 53:52.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, you know, everybody, I guess, was just either traveling on Monday back to where they came from, or, uh, or just, you know, sitting in a room, staring straight ahead and trying to catch up.
[53:52.720 --> 53:57.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, but, boy, you know, when, when, when you put something like this together, it's, uh, it's trying.
[53:57.880 --> 53:58.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: It is.
[53:58.260 --> 53:59.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: But it is fun, too.
[53:59.680 --> 54:00.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's trying and fun.
[54:00.920 --> 54:01.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Net Weasel.
[54:02.480 --> 54:04.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I, I think I know where they all were.
[54:04.780 --> 54:05.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Where were they?
[54:05.780 --> 54:08.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're on the Broadway Kmart trying to get some free stuff.
[54:08.200 --> 54:11.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, now, you know, let's talk about that free stuff for a second.
[54:11.500 --> 54:16.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, for those of you who went to the social engineering panel, I didn't expect this to, to really work this well.
[54:16.800 --> 54:19.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, we did the social engineering panel, uh, three years ago.
[54:19.360 --> 54:21.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: So, this year, we did it as well.
[54:22.420 --> 54:29.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, um, you know, it, I, I thought maybe we'd have a couple of people talking about things and maybe, you know, sharing some stories.
[54:30.000 --> 54:33.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, uh, I, I wanted to make some attempts on the telephone.
[54:33.880 --> 54:39.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, we, we, we, we basically tried some things, and I think nearly all of them worked really well.
[54:39.640 --> 54:43.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, the Kmart thing, tell us about the Kmart thing, how it came about.
[54:43.760 --> 54:47.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I guess somebody wanted an example of how we could do it.
[54:47.840 --> 54:52.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, somebody suggested that Kmart's intercom was an extension on the phone.
[54:52.600 --> 54:53.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[54:53.040 --> 54:55.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, as you know, there are two Kmarts in New York City.
[54:56.100 --> 54:56.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Only two.
[54:56.940 --> 54:58.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it might stop at that.
[54:59.120 --> 55:10.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, uh, we called one and talked to one of the managers and told him we were Bill from the other store, or someone, something of that name, and told him we were having a problem with our PA system.
[55:10.340 --> 55:15.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, well, we went on to say we needed the technical number for tech support.
[55:15.260 --> 55:16.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: He didn't know what it was.
[55:16.260 --> 55:17.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I said, we, we use 50.
[55:19.320 --> 55:20.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, what do you guys use?
[55:20.940 --> 55:23.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't know if I should say what they use over the air, because we're not...
[55:23.800 --> 55:26.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, you said it in front of 500 people, so why not?
[55:26.640 --> 55:27.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, well, he said, he said, well...
[55:27.200 --> 55:28.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: I want to say in front of 50,000 people or whatever.
[55:29.100 --> 55:31.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: He said, well, we use Function 631.
[55:31.480 --> 55:32.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: I said, well, thanks a lot.
[55:32.880 --> 55:33.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: So then, uh...
[55:33.620 --> 55:34.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: What is Function, though?
[55:34.600 --> 55:35.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: How do you, how do you transfer to Function?
[55:35.760 --> 55:39.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think that, I think that, that basically means, uh, probably like inquiry, or...
[55:39.300 --> 55:40.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, you know what I think it means?
[55:40.340 --> 55:41.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: I think Function means flash.
[55:41.820 --> 55:42.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: Flash.
[55:42.020 --> 55:44.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: So if you're on a call, you can hit Function, it flashes, and then you dial an extension.
[55:45.260 --> 55:46.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's basically just, just a dial an extension.
[55:46.540 --> 55:52.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: So then we called, uh, the Broadway camera, and, uh, called them up, asked for the shoe department, I think, because...
[55:52.940 --> 55:54.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: The Broadway one is the one downtown, right?
[55:54.480 --> 55:55.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it was, it was the one downtown.
[55:56.000 --> 55:57.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's the one that YouTube played at, I'm not sure, but...
[55:57.920 --> 55:59.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they didn't play there, they had a press conference there.
[55:59.860 --> 56:01.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Press conference there, or something like that.
[56:05.760 --> 56:11.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I was really interested to know if the sandals were in, because, you know, I was Mark from the other store.
[56:11.940 --> 56:13.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to know if the shipment came in.
[56:13.500 --> 56:15.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I actually suggested, thanks a lot.
[56:15.100 --> 56:17.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, can you transfer me to extension 631?
[56:17.420 --> 56:20.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: And after that, I said, attention, Kmart shoppers.
[56:21.380 --> 56:23.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Everything in aisle four is free.
[56:23.480 --> 56:23.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[56:24.740 --> 56:30.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: And of course, you all read about the ensuing right that followed that and all the damage and injuries and things like that.
[56:30.900 --> 56:31.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, you know, it's fun.
[56:33.380 --> 56:33.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[56:34.060 --> 56:34.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[56:34.380 --> 56:35.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, but it was...
[56:35.400 --> 56:36.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was an interesting thing.
[56:36.520 --> 56:37.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't think too many people got hurt.
[56:37.820 --> 56:37.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: No.
[56:38.220 --> 56:39.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: But it just shows you how easy it is.
[56:39.920 --> 56:49.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: And the social engineering panel, we also tried to get information from the phone company, AT&T, about a certain person with a funny-sounding name.
[56:49.780 --> 56:54.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: And we got to the point where they would have given us everything we wanted, except their computers were down, as they almost always are on Sunday.
[56:55.300 --> 57:03.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: We also called Blockbuster and got all kinds of information about all kinds of people with, you know, the same last name, thinking that, hey, this person might be related to me.
[57:03.880 --> 57:12.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: And the person just was happily giving us everything we needed to know, you know, what movies they rented, when they were in the store last, how long they've had an account for, where they live.
[57:13.460 --> 57:17.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: I probably could have gotten credit card information, too, had we continued that.
[57:18.520 --> 57:20.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: We also... what else did we do?
[57:20.720 --> 57:21.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let's see.
[57:23.100 --> 57:24.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, corporate security.
[57:24.540 --> 57:25.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: Corporate security.
[57:25.680 --> 57:26.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Which one?
[57:27.140 --> 57:27.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Microsoft.
[57:27.860 --> 57:28.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, yeah.
[57:28.360 --> 57:29.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't want to talk about that one.
[57:29.860 --> 57:41.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: But we called the social engineering hotline of Ameritech, and I don't know, I think we just demonstrated how much fun things can be, you know, way to draw the line, way not to cross, and things like that.
[57:42.280 --> 57:43.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: You had fun at the conference?
[57:43.280 --> 57:44.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I had lots of fun at the conference.
[57:45.000 --> 57:46.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was pretty good.
[57:46.380 --> 57:47.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was a lot of fun.
[57:47.360 --> 57:48.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: Patty, you're here.
[57:49.120 --> 57:50.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: You did just about everything, too.
[57:51.260 --> 57:54.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, yes, I got to sleep, uh, today.
[57:54.980 --> 57:55.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Congratulations.
[57:55.780 --> 57:56.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thank you.
[57:56.700 --> 58:00.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's nice to, uh, nice to find out what sleep is after something like that.
[58:00.880 --> 58:01.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes.
[58:01.720 --> 58:03.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, so, you, uh, you all caught up?
[58:03.800 --> 58:04.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: Back to normal?
[58:04.520 --> 58:08.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, no, I'm not caught up, but, um, I guess I'll get to do that again tomorrow.
[58:09.000 --> 58:09.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[58:10.780 --> 58:14.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, one thing I got lots of questions about was when are we going to do this again?
[58:14.360 --> 58:15.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: When are we going to have another conference?
[58:15.980 --> 58:18.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, you know, I just don't want to answer that question, though.
[58:18.280 --> 58:19.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't want to even think about it.
[58:19.160 --> 58:20.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't want to even talk about it.
[58:20.780 --> 58:22.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's, uh, whoa, something else.
[58:23.360 --> 58:26.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, what kinds of things did you throw together for this?
[58:27.020 --> 58:31.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, I had to hunt down, uh, equipment, mostly.
[58:31.380 --> 58:34.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: We found video equipment, audio equipment.
[58:34.740 --> 58:36.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: There was nothing you couldn't find.
[58:36.200 --> 58:36.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: You found everything.
[58:36.900 --> 58:40.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: You found sound equipment and video, and that's where you knew everything was.
[58:40.600 --> 58:42.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, uh, that's what I do best.
[58:43.020 --> 58:43.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh, finding things.
[58:44.080 --> 58:45.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: It should be a private eye like that private eye we had on.
[58:46.100 --> 58:46.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: Did you see him?
[58:47.120 --> 58:47.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, I guess, like...
[58:47.640 --> 58:48.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: He finds people.
[58:48.860 --> 58:50.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: He found people, yeah.
[58:50.100 --> 58:51.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, I find people, too.
[58:51.520 --> 58:51.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh, cool.
[58:51.860 --> 58:52.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: I find things.
[58:53.500 --> 58:54.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's what I do.
[58:54.940 --> 58:56.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's how I hack.
[58:57.140 --> 58:58.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, Netweasel.
[58:58.620 --> 59:03.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, Patty's the one that found the, uh, the DNA evidence that links Marv Albert to the, uh...
[59:03.880 --> 59:05.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're not supposed to be talking about that.
[59:05.500 --> 59:07.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Remember what the, what the district attorney said to us?
[59:07.900 --> 59:09.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: He said not to mention it to the people.
[59:09.480 --> 59:12.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: But we don't have that many listeners, so I'm sure everybody can keep, can keep, uh, quiet, quiet.
[59:13.020 --> 59:14.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, Zap!
[59:14.460 --> 59:14.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: Zap!
[59:14.980 --> 59:16.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Zap, you're, you came all the way over here from England.
[59:16.920 --> 59:17.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: All the way from the UK.
[59:18.160 --> 59:18.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: Wow.
[59:18.760 --> 59:20.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, uh, was it as you expected it to be?
[59:20.960 --> 59:21.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: Was it worse?
[59:21.940 --> 59:22.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: Better?
[59:22.460 --> 59:26.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: I didn't know what to expect, but it was really, really good.
[59:26.440 --> 59:26.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[59:26.640 --> 59:31.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I came over with some of my buddies, we all met up and we attended and it was good.
[59:31.260 --> 59:33.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: I was really happy you guys were able to make it.
[59:33.400 --> 59:34.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: I really was.
[59:34.380 --> 59:39.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Because, uh, it just added this flair to things that, that we needed to, to experience.
[59:39.860 --> 59:41.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, that, that, this, this worldly aspect.
[59:41.780 --> 59:49.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: We had people from Argentina, we had people from, uh, uh, from, um, other parts of Europe, Asia, show up.
[59:49.900 --> 59:53.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, um, it's too bad Cyber Junkie's not here because he was a lot of fun.
[59:53.980 --> 59:54.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: But Gorf is here.
[59:54.980 --> 59:55.780]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yeah, Gorf is here.
[59:55.840 --> 59:55.960]  [SPEAKER_24]: Hi.
[59:55.960 --> 59:56.320]  [SPEAKER_24]: How you doing?
[59:56.480 --> 59:57.980]  [SPEAKER_24]: And, uh, you're from England as well.
[59:58.060 --> 59:58.420]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's right.
[59:58.660 --> 59:59.920]  [SPEAKER_24]: And what did you think of all this?
[59:59.920 --> 01:00:02.840]  [SPEAKER_24]: I thought it was amazing, really good, good fun.
[01:00:03.120 --> 01:00:03.340]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yeah.
[01:00:03.600 --> 01:00:07.660]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, especially the, the social engineering panel that was, uh, um, unreal.
[01:00:08.180 --> 01:00:08.460]  [SPEAKER_24]: Uh-huh.
[01:00:09.080 --> 01:00:15.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: But what we're going to try to do is, uh, is put everything onto, uh, onto Real Audio and send that over the net.
[01:00:16.800 --> 01:00:20.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, um, hopefully people who weren't there will be able to, to experience it.
[01:00:20.580 --> 01:00:22.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: Of course, we'll have it on video too at some point.
[01:00:22.560 --> 01:00:24.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: We don't know exactly when that will be out when it will take us to get our act together.
[01:00:24.980 --> 01:00:26.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: It took us three years to get our act together on the last one.
[01:00:27.580 --> 01:00:29.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, so where do you guys go from here?
[01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:31.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Are you going to do something like this in England now?
[01:00:32.360 --> 01:00:39.100]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, there's, um, there's a, a, a, a much smaller, uh, conference that's organized, or it has been on for the last three years.
[01:00:39.100 --> 01:00:47.320]  [SPEAKER_24]: So, hopefully we'll be able to inject some stuff into that, some ideas, and, um, you know, get things going on a bigger scale.
[01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:54.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, we, we, we, speaking of overseas, there was another conference called, uh, Hacking in Progress, which supposedly went quite well.
[01:00:54.200 --> 01:00:56.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: Although one thing that didn't go so well was our connection to them.
[01:00:56.420 --> 01:01:01.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: We had a couple of, uh, a couple of, um, times where we were able to see what was going on there.
[01:01:02.220 --> 01:01:03.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: What do we have here?
[01:01:03.100 --> 01:01:05.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: We have, uh, we have the hip stories now, huh?
[01:01:06.200 --> 01:01:09.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Melting mind, melding minds and passions in the global bitstream.
[01:01:09.400 --> 01:01:10.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: Probably some melting minds, too.
[01:01:10.940 --> 01:01:14.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, 2,000 hackers, 6 million BPS, 800,000 volts, 12 toilets.
[01:01:15.320 --> 01:01:19.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, well, you see, they did theirs outside in a campground, so they had a few problems.
[01:01:19.120 --> 01:01:24.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I think it rained pretty heavily on, uh, on Sunday, which might explain why hip disappeared without a word.
[01:01:25.040 --> 01:01:26.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: We didn't know what, what happened.
[01:01:26.180 --> 01:01:30.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: We weren't able to broadcast their, their closing ceremonies, uh, like we were supposed to.
[01:01:30.720 --> 01:01:34.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, uh, despite that, I think things went, uh, went really well.
[01:01:34.420 --> 01:01:35.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was, it was exciting and fun.
[01:01:35.980 --> 01:01:38.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: The network, the network stayed up virtually the whole time.
[01:01:39.040 --> 01:01:41.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: And not only that, the network actually worked.
[01:01:41.300 --> 01:01:50.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: For that, we have Marco to thank, uh, who, uh, I think has, has been entered into history as the only person who has ever managed to keep a hacker network going at a hacker conference in this country.
[01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:57.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: We've done it in Holland a few times, but in this country, you know, 1994, we really didn't do it that, that great.
[01:01:57.220 --> 01:02:00.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, we had a 28.8 connection, but it was, like, down most of the time.
[01:02:00.340 --> 01:02:03.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: We were able to connect our computers together to each other, so that's, that's one thing.
[01:02:03.480 --> 01:02:10.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: But to actually have a fast connection, you know, going, um, that's, uh, that's harder.
[01:02:11.600 --> 01:02:13.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right, let's take some phone calls.
[01:02:13.160 --> 01:02:15.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: 212-279-3400.
[01:02:16.240 --> 01:02:17.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, we're talking about Beyond Hope.
[01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:23.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: If you were there, please give us a call and tell us what was going on in, uh, in, in your experiences.
[01:02:25.020 --> 01:02:26.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[01:02:26.580 --> 01:02:27.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, Emmanuel.
[01:02:28.120 --> 01:02:28.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wait a minute.
[01:02:28.980 --> 01:02:31.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: How did, whoa, whoa, where did he do that?
[01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:34.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Rebel was sitting right in front of me, and now he's gone.
[01:02:35.040 --> 01:02:35.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, I'm gone.
[01:02:35.740 --> 01:02:37.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: And he's on the phone, and he's still first somehow.
[01:02:38.560 --> 01:02:40.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I was first at the conference.
[01:02:41.140 --> 01:02:42.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Don't, you were the first person there?
[01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:44.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: I was, no, no.
[01:02:44.400 --> 01:02:45.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, in the...
[01:02:45.340 --> 01:02:46.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: You lined up on Tuesday night, didn't you?
[01:02:46.720 --> 01:02:47.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: On the WBAI thing.
[01:02:48.120 --> 01:02:48.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:53.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, yeah, okay, that's because you were jumping around and, uh, wouldn't sit down until you got on the air.
[01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:57.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, helping Pam out, uh, running around with, uh, different things.
[01:02:57.460 --> 01:02:58.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, so you did, you did help us quite a bit.
[01:02:59.080 --> 01:03:00.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: I do want to say thank you for that.
[01:03:00.460 --> 01:03:00.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[01:03:00.900 --> 01:03:02.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: So what was your favorite part of the conference?
[01:03:02.140 --> 01:03:16.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: My favorite part was the social engineering, and the WBAI broadcast, and the, the part where people kept, uh, uh, actually, the part where I was on, where I was on for a couple of minutes Saturday night.
[01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:17.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: You like that part, huh?
[01:03:17.180 --> 01:03:22.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, when I, uh, was doing my demonstrations, and I demonstrated, you know, things with ANI failures and phones and things.
[01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:26.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I, and I liked that they, the, the, the little animated GIF of me.
[01:03:28.160 --> 01:03:31.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Animated, you know, little homepage-like thing.
[01:03:31.160 --> 01:03:32.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't know what you're talking about.
[01:03:32.560 --> 01:03:41.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's a, there's somebody who made, I forgot, I forgot the name of the person, but there's somebody who made a, a, not a homepage, but a little animated GIF.
[01:03:41.320 --> 01:03:50.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a little page that says Rebel Attack, and it has a picture of me, a little picture of my head, on an animated GIF, and it really looks good.
[01:03:50.660 --> 01:03:59.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they put that up on the screen while I was talking, and I was telling people about, you know, giving a bit of history about what I do and stuff, and I keep hearing laughing.
[01:03:59.860 --> 01:04:06.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: I look back up at the screen, and I see this animated GIF of me, and then, you know, all this stuff, and I liked it, actually.
[01:04:06.980 --> 01:04:08.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: It was very humorous.
[01:04:08.500 --> 01:04:10.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, well, humor, I think, was a very important part of this.
[01:04:10.900 --> 01:04:13.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, people liked the demonstrations.
[01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:18.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: People sort of, you know, hushed up for the, you know, when I started picking up the phone and doing stuff.
[01:04:18.280 --> 01:04:18.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:04:18.740 --> 01:04:23.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then after, when I was rushed off the stage because you had to do something else or whatever.
[01:04:23.720 --> 01:04:25.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, we sort of rushed you off the stage there.
[01:04:25.980 --> 01:04:29.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Sorry about that, but yeah, some things had to happen, and that was the moment they were happening.
[01:04:29.120 --> 01:04:37.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right, and I kept getting, you know, bombarded by people saying, hey, sign my 2600 book, you know, where do I get the article of you?
[01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:48.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'll sign my shirt, and, you know, it's like autographing shirts, autographing 2600 magazines, and answering questions, and people are like, oh, I hope Emmanuel doesn't hate you or whatever.
[01:04:49.220 --> 01:04:58.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, you know, I was going to check my, I didn't want to check my email there because of the Telmet thing with the, you know, they say not to check your email with Telmet.
[01:04:58.840 --> 01:05:01.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, you could be being sniffed, that's quite possible.
[01:05:01.420 --> 01:05:02.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, but we won't get into that.
[01:05:02.360 --> 01:05:10.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: But, you know, I got back, you know, I answered all these emails, and everybody just kept on saying, you know, how much they liked what I had to say.
[01:05:10.360 --> 01:05:12.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: They wished that it wasn't so short.
[01:05:13.240 --> 01:05:16.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, a couple of elderly people even came to the conference on Friday.
[01:05:17.220 --> 01:05:20.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, they said that they recognized me from the radio and stuff, and, you know...
[01:05:22.820 --> 01:05:23.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[01:05:23.620 --> 01:05:24.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: Keep talking.
[01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:26.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, you know, it really was good.
[01:05:26.700 --> 01:05:29.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: And also, you know, people just, you know...
[01:05:29.340 --> 01:05:38.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: I met a person from California that, you know, said that they recognize what I do and stuff, and met a lot of people that I, you know...
[01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:47.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, didn't, you know, lots of people asking questions, lots of people, you know...
[01:05:47.900 --> 01:05:49.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: It was a fun conference, and I...
[01:05:49.420 --> 01:05:50.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was fun, yes.
[01:05:50.600 --> 01:05:52.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was tons of fun.
[01:05:52.260 --> 01:05:55.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, the ABC thing, you know, I was interviewed by different journalists.
[01:05:55.860 --> 01:05:57.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: I did a big demonstration for...
[01:05:57.300 --> 01:05:57.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: Were you on television?
[01:05:58.360 --> 01:06:00.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, I don't know, because...
[01:06:00.560 --> 01:06:04.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: If anybody knows if Rebels are on television, please notify me immediately, because I need to know that.
[01:06:05.180 --> 01:06:07.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: I just would like to know quickly.
[01:06:07.400 --> 01:06:15.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, because I did the... I talked to ABC, and I talked to this Israeli journalist for quite some time about...
[01:06:15.620 --> 01:06:17.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I gave him a big demonstration about phones.
[01:06:18.380 --> 01:06:18.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[01:06:18.980 --> 01:06:21.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, well, that's what you're good at, is giving demonstrations on phones.
[01:06:21.340 --> 01:06:21.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[01:06:22.020 --> 01:06:23.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, and, um...
[01:06:23.280 --> 01:06:26.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's see, I can't think of what else to say, because I'm being shaken right now.
[01:06:26.720 --> 01:06:27.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, you're being shaken.
[01:06:27.640 --> 01:06:27.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: By a couple of people.
[01:06:28.100 --> 01:06:33.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right, well, listen, I'll let you get mugged in peace there, and, uh, see what's...
[01:06:33.220 --> 01:06:35.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: What's, what's, uh, hopefully proper authorities will be contacted.
[01:06:36.300 --> 01:06:37.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thank you very much for calling Rebel.
[01:06:37.480 --> 01:06:38.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks for being a part of things.
[01:06:47.520 --> 01:06:50.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: That your whole life has been living in nowhere or anything like that.
[01:06:50.080 --> 01:06:51.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: But as far as we're concerned...
[01:06:51.340 --> 01:06:52.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's usually what happens.
[01:06:52.020 --> 01:06:55.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: It just sort of popped up and, and helped us with so many things.
[01:06:55.580 --> 01:06:56.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, uh, maybe you could, you could describe...
[01:06:56.920 --> 01:06:58.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: I didn't really plan that.
[01:06:58.260 --> 01:06:58.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[01:06:58.360 --> 01:06:59.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: It just sort of happened.
[01:06:59.360 --> 01:06:59.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: It just sort of happened.
[01:07:00.080 --> 01:07:03.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, it was, it was amazing how things, how things...
[01:07:03.320 --> 01:07:04.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: I like how it's shaken, not stirred.
[01:07:06.260 --> 01:07:08.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: Tell us some of the things that, that you were involved in.
[01:07:08.720 --> 01:07:08.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um...
[01:07:08.940 --> 01:07:10.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: Registration was certainly one.
[01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:12.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I just, I wound up running registration.
[01:07:12.580 --> 01:07:12.800]  Mm-hmm.
[01:07:13.020 --> 01:07:14.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: You like how that happened, huh?
[01:07:14.520 --> 01:07:14.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[01:07:15.240 --> 01:07:18.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it was really fun, and, uh, I got to work with a lot of good people.
[01:07:18.300 --> 01:07:18.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: Mm-hmm.
[01:07:18.680 --> 01:07:19.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who I'd like to thank.
[01:07:19.980 --> 01:07:20.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, go ahead and thank them.
[01:07:20.980 --> 01:07:21.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um...
[01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:23.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: Because I'm going to leave out people, and then they're going to be mad at me.
[01:07:23.120 --> 01:07:27.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: And that's just where I can say, well, I was going to thank you, but then Meme jumped in and thanked, thank you for me.
[01:07:28.040 --> 01:07:28.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: So, go ahead.
[01:07:28.500 --> 01:07:29.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: You want me to thank individuals?
[01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:30.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, please.
[01:07:30.300 --> 01:07:31.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, first, I'd like to thank Pam.
[01:07:31.720 --> 01:07:31.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:32.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Definitely Pam.
[01:07:32.840 --> 01:07:33.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, cool.
[01:07:33.100 --> 01:07:34.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: She really taught me a lot in gym.
[01:07:34.780 --> 01:07:40.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, but I'd like to point out Ronin and Baby Goat, for one, because they were there through most of it.
[01:07:40.740 --> 01:07:41.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: And Jesse, and Josh.
[01:07:42.360 --> 01:07:42.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[01:07:42.840 --> 01:07:45.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, actually, there were so many people that I'm going to forget.
[01:07:46.120 --> 01:07:47.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, you see the problem here.
[01:07:47.100 --> 01:07:47.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: You see the problem.
[01:07:48.340 --> 01:07:48.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: There were a lot of people.
[01:07:48.920 --> 01:07:49.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: Definitely going to forget some people.
[01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:52.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Also, the people who are working merchandise, like Ben.
[01:07:52.420 --> 01:07:57.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, Ben works merchandise, and, uh, um, let's see, who else?
[01:07:57.440 --> 01:07:58.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, a lot of people work merchandise.
[01:07:58.900 --> 01:07:59.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, I saw them all.
[01:07:59.860 --> 01:08:03.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's just, like, I can't possibly name all of them, because sometimes I don't know their names.
[01:08:04.460 --> 01:08:06.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, um, there were just so many.
[01:08:06.240 --> 01:08:07.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: We could spend the whole hour, I think.
[01:08:08.380 --> 01:08:10.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, but there were a lot of, I mean, Iggy, for instance.
[01:08:10.620 --> 01:08:11.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: We almost completely forgot Iggy.
[01:08:11.680 --> 01:08:12.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: He did the security.
[01:08:12.620 --> 01:08:15.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, he was the guy walking around with, keeping track of all the radios.
[01:08:15.100 --> 01:08:19.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was one thing to be on a radio, you know, saying where you were, but to keep track of where all the radios were, that's hard.
[01:08:19.860 --> 01:08:20.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[01:08:20.180 --> 01:08:22.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, and we were able to successfully do that.
[01:08:22.960 --> 01:08:36.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, um, and plus, you know, I don't think people felt like they were being watched, like they were being, you know, their every movement was being scrutinized by, you know, I don't know, a rather oppressive security staff.
[01:08:36.520 --> 01:08:41.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I think the reason for that was because we had a pretty cool person running things.
[01:08:41.860 --> 01:08:44.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, uh, I think that's the way to do it.
[01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:46.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: At the same time, though, it was very effective.
[01:08:47.220 --> 01:08:49.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, we knew where everything was at any time.
[01:08:49.120 --> 01:08:50.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't think anything got stolen.
[01:08:51.460 --> 01:08:52.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Nothing major, anyway.
[01:08:53.240 --> 01:08:55.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, what about Captain Crunch's raving ability?
[01:08:56.320 --> 01:08:57.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: Who wants to, uh...
[01:08:58.060 --> 01:08:59.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: Who wants to talk about that?
[01:08:59.600 --> 01:09:01.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: But apparently somebody was raving with Captain Crunch.
[01:09:01.900 --> 01:09:02.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, Captain Crunch showed up.
[01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:03.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: John Draper was there.
[01:09:03.780 --> 01:09:06.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: I was amazed that he came to our conference.
[01:09:06.560 --> 01:09:07.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: He was at the rave.
[01:09:07.360 --> 01:09:07.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[01:09:07.960 --> 01:09:11.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: But did he do something at the rave that's worth talking about, or...?
[01:09:12.420 --> 01:09:13.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, I didn't go to the rave.
[01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:14.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: There was a rave on Saturday night.
[01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:16.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, it was put on by some people.
[01:09:17.040 --> 01:09:19.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, um, maybe some people on the phone went to that.
[01:09:19.820 --> 01:09:21.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: And they could tell us what that was like.
[01:09:21.420 --> 01:09:24.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: But that was just one of many things that were going on in the city that weekend.
[01:09:24.820 --> 01:09:29.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: I think, you know, one other thing that we were able to dispel with this whole conference is the fact that New York City is a really cool place to be.
[01:09:30.500 --> 01:09:31.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: And we know that.
[01:09:31.580 --> 01:09:34.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, everybody who listens here at least has the opportunity to know that.
[01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:37.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: But people, you know, coming from Wisconsin and Iowa, they might think...
[01:09:37.920 --> 01:09:39.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: They might think that, um...
[01:09:40.620 --> 01:09:42.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: They might think that, uh...
[01:09:42.360 --> 01:09:43.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's a different kind of place.
[01:09:44.360 --> 01:09:46.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, and you have to, uh...
[01:09:46.100 --> 01:09:49.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: You have to kind of be careful the images that you send out.
[01:09:50.360 --> 01:09:53.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: But I think everyone had a good time in the city as well as at the conference.
[01:09:54.300 --> 01:09:55.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let's, uh...
[01:09:55.020 --> 01:09:56.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: Squeeze in another phone call.
[01:09:57.860 --> 01:09:58.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening.
[01:09:58.580 --> 01:09:59.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: You're on the air.
[01:10:00.020 --> 01:10:00.440]  [SPEAKER_22]: Hey there.
[01:10:00.520 --> 01:10:01.260]  [SPEAKER_22]: Let me turn down my radio.
[01:10:01.440 --> 01:10:01.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[01:10:02.200 --> 01:10:04.720]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, I've been trying for a few weeks to get this question in.
[01:10:05.140 --> 01:10:06.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: The Sony CDMA...
[01:10:06.640 --> 01:10:07.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, no, no, no.
[01:10:07.140 --> 01:10:08.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Are you talking about Beyond Hope?
[01:10:08.980 --> 01:10:09.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, no.
[01:10:09.760 --> 01:10:13.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's the only topic we're talking about tonight because it's a very kind of special show.
[01:10:13.860 --> 01:10:14.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I can...
[01:10:14.300 --> 01:10:16.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: You can call about that in a couple of weeks or whenever you get through.
[01:10:17.100 --> 01:10:17.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, uh...
[01:10:17.920 --> 01:10:19.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: We don't want us stray from the topic tonight.
[01:10:20.380 --> 01:10:20.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks anyway.
[01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:22.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening.
[01:10:22.480 --> 01:10:23.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: You're on the air.
[01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:23.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hi.
[01:10:23.960 --> 01:10:24.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: How you doing?
[01:10:24.800 --> 01:10:25.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:26.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: I was, uh, part of this...
[01:10:26.900 --> 01:10:28.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: The, uh, other radio station panel.
[01:10:28.980 --> 01:10:33.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: What I wanted to say, I really enjoyed the rest of what I had heard at the conference.
[01:10:33.660 --> 01:10:34.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: It was fantastic.
[01:10:34.560 --> 01:10:40.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, uh, um, I hope that you'll have it soon accessible because I've been telling a lot of other people about it.
[01:10:40.620 --> 01:10:46.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: and I, I was, I was looking at your website today and, uh, you know, nothing's up yet.
[01:10:46.620 --> 01:10:47.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, I guess...
[01:10:47.420 --> 01:10:47.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, yeah.
[01:10:47.820 --> 01:10:49.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: We'll be putting up, uh...
[01:10:49.080 --> 01:10:50.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: We have a big thank you up there now for everybody.
[01:10:51.220 --> 01:10:54.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: But we'll be putting up pictures real soon as soon as we get them.
[01:10:54.580 --> 01:10:55.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, but I did...
[01:10:55.100 --> 01:10:55.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: We're starting to get them.
[01:10:56.360 --> 01:10:57.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: I didn't hear the social engineering.
[01:10:58.080 --> 01:10:58.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: I really...
[01:10:58.520 --> 01:10:59.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm sorry I missed that.
[01:10:59.760 --> 01:10:59.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[01:11:00.240 --> 01:11:02.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: I didn't, I didn't hear the, uh, the...
[01:11:02.420 --> 01:11:04.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'll mention the station to steal this radio.
[01:11:04.100 --> 01:11:07.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: I didn't hear that panel and I wish I had because that's the only one that didn't get recorded.
[01:11:07.220 --> 01:11:07.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: It didn't?
[01:11:07.980 --> 01:11:08.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, it didn't because...
[01:11:08.960 --> 01:11:09.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, no.
[01:11:09.620 --> 01:11:11.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, because, because they wanted to use it.
[01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:16.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: They wanted to use the camera to record the, uh, the logo instead so we couldn't record them.
[01:11:16.320 --> 01:11:21.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: So, I, I hope somebody out there got, um, you know, an audio recording of it or maybe even a video recording.
[01:11:21.820 --> 01:11:22.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: Wow.
[01:11:22.520 --> 01:11:23.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: That'd be kind of cool.
[01:11:23.680 --> 01:11:23.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: I hope so, too.
[01:11:24.300 --> 01:11:25.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: I hope so, too.
[01:11:25.300 --> 01:11:31.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: But I, I, um, I don't know if you were interested that I was starting to tell you about those, uh, hacker narcs.
[01:11:31.460 --> 01:11:34.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: I was kind of fascinated by that the night before.
[01:11:34.760 --> 01:11:51.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, and I had put up a, a note and I just faxed a couple of radio stations to try to announce it to some of the foreign or, foreign people, you know, people that weren't necessarily familiar with the, um, with, you know, first language not being English in the cyber cafe scene over the weekend.
[01:11:51.660 --> 01:11:55.560]  [SPEAKER_21]: There were a lot of narcs that had various stories to try to bust hackers.
[01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:56.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, really?
[01:11:56.260 --> 01:12:00.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I, I was starting to tell you that, but you had a lot of luck going on.
[01:12:00.920 --> 01:12:07.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, there, uh, in one case a man came in with a photo of a wife and child, two separate photos.
[01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:08.040]  Uh-huh.
[01:12:08.160 --> 01:12:13.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: And this was at, uh, one of the cyber cafes, like, two, about two in the morning on Friday night.
[01:12:13.420 --> 01:12:17.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I was in there and he came right over to me and said, this was my wife, I can't find her.
[01:12:18.140 --> 01:12:19.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: She has a cellular phone.
[01:12:20.060 --> 01:12:23.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, and, you know, you must, you must know how to, how to hack into that.
[01:12:23.520 --> 01:12:26.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: Or surely you must have some hacker friends that know how to do that.
[01:12:26.680 --> 01:12:29.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: Because then if I, if I can find that phone and I can trace her.
[01:12:29.940 --> 01:12:34.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I said, well, as far as I know, that's not going to tell you any information.
[01:12:34.520 --> 01:12:36.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's not going to give you the building where the phone is.
[01:12:36.280 --> 01:12:39.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: And he was trying to convince me that, yes, this, his phone would.
[01:12:40.260 --> 01:12:44.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if I only had some hacker friends, couldn't I just give him a hacker number?
[01:12:45.140 --> 01:12:50.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, well, people always think that we have this amazing ability to, uh, you know, to, to get answers for everything.
[01:12:50.200 --> 01:12:55.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: But you have to always wonder, you know, what are the reasons for them asking this in the first place?
[01:12:55.540 --> 01:12:57.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: And might they have ulterior motives?
[01:12:57.580 --> 01:13:00.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: So, yeah, it's, it's, it's very wise to be suspicious of such things.
[01:13:00.540 --> 01:13:02.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's very wise to tell other people about it as well.
[01:13:02.900 --> 01:13:05.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, uh, so I, overall, though, you had fun at the conference.
[01:13:06.320 --> 01:13:07.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, it was great.
[01:13:07.340 --> 01:13:09.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, it was certainly, um, the first one I've been to.
[01:13:10.020 --> 01:13:16.160]  [SPEAKER_21]: I wouldn't have known, I wouldn't really have thought too much about, uh, going to the whole thing if it weren't for the radio presentation.
[01:13:16.280 --> 01:13:18.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: I was really sorry that I missed a couple of things on the first day.
[01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:24.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: I hope we, I hope we, we open up some eyes with the radio conference and, uh, you know, other ones as well.
[01:13:24.400 --> 01:13:27.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: We try to be as diverse as possible, come from as many different angles as possible.
[01:13:27.660 --> 01:13:30.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: That way people will be exposed to different, uh, you know, different thoughts.
[01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:33.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, it was, it was much more varied than I, than I even thought.
[01:13:34.100 --> 01:13:34.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, it was great.
[01:13:35.100 --> 01:13:35.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[01:13:35.420 --> 01:13:36.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: I really liked it a lot.
[01:13:36.100 --> 01:13:36.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks for coming.
[01:13:36.660 --> 01:13:37.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks for being a part of it.
[01:13:37.520 --> 01:13:37.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, great.
[01:13:37.900 --> 01:13:38.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thank you.
[01:13:38.200 --> 01:13:38.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks for calling.
[01:13:39.000 --> 01:13:39.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right.
[01:13:39.380 --> 01:13:40.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: 212-279-3400.
[01:13:41.040 --> 01:13:41.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: We're talking about Beyond Hope.
[01:13:42.660 --> 01:13:43.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening.
[01:13:43.220 --> 01:13:43.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: You're on the air.
[01:13:44.220 --> 01:13:44.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, hello.
[01:13:44.920 --> 01:13:45.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: How you doing?
[01:13:45.620 --> 01:13:47.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: I just wanted to talk about the conference.
[01:13:47.540 --> 01:13:47.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[01:13:49.580 --> 01:13:50.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I'm not a hacker.
[01:13:51.200 --> 01:13:51.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[01:13:51.740 --> 01:13:55.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I've had, I met a lot of interesting people and I learned a lot of interesting things.
[01:13:55.560 --> 01:13:57.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I was afraid to go in the beginning.
[01:13:58.020 --> 01:13:58.580]  Uh-huh.
[01:13:58.760 --> 01:14:00.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because I was afraid of, you know, being accepted or whatever.
[01:14:01.100 --> 01:14:02.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I attended almost all the panels.
[01:14:02.740 --> 01:14:05.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: I especially enjoyed fiber optics, GSM panel.
[01:14:07.020 --> 01:14:16.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: And just in general, the whole feeling of the whole conference was very, very good from what, from what hackers are portrayed at as in general by the media.
[01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:17.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[01:14:17.360 --> 01:14:18.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was totally opposite.
[01:14:18.480 --> 01:14:22.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've met a lot of interesting people and there's absolutely no problems.
[01:14:22.900 --> 01:14:23.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's great.
[01:14:23.660 --> 01:14:26.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's great to know that because that's exactly what we wanted to happen.
[01:14:26.700 --> 01:14:36.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: We wanted to have people come in from outside the community and hear things direct from hackers, hear our perspective and see some of the things that we're able to teach.
[01:14:36.780 --> 01:14:44.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, you know, it takes guts to be able to walk in the door to something that you're totally unfamiliar with and, you know, onto enemy territory as it might be perceived.
[01:14:45.340 --> 01:14:48.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: But I'm glad you came away with a positive experience.
[01:14:48.600 --> 01:14:56.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, I don't know much about computers, but people were showing me things, teaching me things, and I was very surprised.
[01:14:56.540 --> 01:14:58.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I just had a lot of fun.
[01:14:58.860 --> 01:14:59.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[01:14:59.180 --> 01:14:59.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, that's great.
[01:14:59.840 --> 01:15:00.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's great.
[01:15:00.280 --> 01:15:01.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks very much for coming and for calling.
[01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:02.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thank you.
[01:15:02.660 --> 01:15:02.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right.
[01:15:02.880 --> 01:15:03.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: Take care.
[01:15:03.400 --> 01:15:03.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: Bye.
[01:15:04.560 --> 01:15:05.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: 212-279-3400.
[01:15:06.240 --> 01:15:06.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening.
[01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:07.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: You're on the air.
[01:15:08.180 --> 01:15:08.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello, Emmanuel.
[01:15:09.040 --> 01:15:09.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, how you doing?
[01:15:10.020 --> 01:15:10.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good.
[01:15:11.040 --> 01:15:14.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much for a great event.
[01:15:14.560 --> 01:15:16.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, thank you for helping make it possible.
[01:15:16.400 --> 01:15:18.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: And thanks to all the other people that helped put it on.
[01:15:19.160 --> 01:15:26.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was great to meet everyone, Meme and Iggy and Rebel and all of you guys and work alongside of you.
[01:15:26.740 --> 01:15:28.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is Frank, and I'm still here in Jersey.
[01:15:28.540 --> 01:15:31.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: I managed to catch your program live for once.
[01:15:31.160 --> 01:15:32.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Usually I catch it on the Internet.
[01:15:33.460 --> 01:15:41.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so I just want to thank you very much and tell you it was a great honor and pleasure to be there and to meet everyone and to be part of it.
[01:15:41.560 --> 01:15:44.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, Frank, thanks for all your help and for helping make this thing a success.
[01:15:45.180 --> 01:15:47.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how you're going to outdo yourself, but...
[01:15:47.560 --> 01:15:48.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's a problem.
[01:15:48.220 --> 01:15:49.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, that's a big problem.
[01:15:49.100 --> 01:15:51.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: We don't know how we're going to do a better job this time.
[01:15:51.500 --> 01:15:53.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully technology will take care of that for you.
[01:15:53.640 --> 01:15:58.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, you know, that's one of the things that happened in the three years since the last conference is technology has expanded so much.
[01:15:58.640 --> 01:16:02.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, a 28.8 connection back in 94, you know, wasn't something to be laughed at.
[01:16:03.080 --> 01:16:04.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: And now, of course, it is.
[01:16:04.840 --> 01:16:12.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: When we had access to so much more, we've come in contact with so many people that are able to hook things up in a much better way and keep things going.
[01:16:13.640 --> 01:16:17.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I guess, you know, I guess technology is growing us along with it.
[01:16:17.240 --> 01:16:18.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I just want to...
[01:16:18.340 --> 01:16:19.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: One brief thing.
[01:16:19.640 --> 01:16:21.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to apologize to you toward the end there on Sunday.
[01:16:21.960 --> 01:16:24.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was so burnt out I started actually nodding during the conferences.
[01:16:25.260 --> 01:16:28.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: That wasn't a reflection on the subject matter.
[01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:29.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, that wasn't a problem.
[01:16:29.660 --> 01:16:30.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was the snoring.
[01:16:30.520 --> 01:16:32.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was a loud snoring that was the problem, you know.
[01:16:32.460 --> 01:16:33.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: That started to disturb some people.
[01:16:34.040 --> 01:16:35.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: But other than that, no, things...
[01:16:35.720 --> 01:16:38.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Towards the end, yeah, of course, people started getting really frazzled.
[01:16:38.620 --> 01:16:45.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, you know, it started to show because, you know, you plan this thing for weeks, months even.
[01:16:46.180 --> 01:16:49.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, you know, then you're up for 72 hours and why?
[01:16:49.940 --> 01:16:50.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's just...
[01:16:50.640 --> 01:16:54.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's great, but you've got to come down from it at some point.
[01:16:54.660 --> 01:16:55.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well...
[01:16:55.020 --> 01:16:56.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm just glad that people are starting to.
[01:16:57.480 --> 01:16:58.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: You did it.
[01:16:58.740 --> 01:16:59.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks.
[01:16:59.100 --> 01:16:59.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: We all did it.
[01:16:59.680 --> 01:17:00.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: We all did it.
[01:17:00.160 --> 01:17:02.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: And hopefully you're going to do it again and we're all going to be there too.
[01:17:02.440 --> 01:17:05.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: We support you all the way and we're going to be with you every step.
[01:17:05.500 --> 01:17:05.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[01:17:05.840 --> 01:17:06.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks very much for being there.
[01:17:06.940 --> 01:17:07.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Emmanuel.
[01:17:07.740 --> 01:17:08.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: Take care.
[01:17:08.260 --> 01:17:08.360]  Bye.
[01:17:15.820 --> 01:17:17.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: You're on live.
[01:17:17.400 --> 01:17:17.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hello.
[01:17:17.740 --> 01:17:17.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: Are you there?
[01:17:18.040 --> 01:17:18.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hey, Emmanuel.
[01:17:18.680 --> 01:17:19.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: How you doing?
[01:17:19.440 --> 01:17:19.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi.
[01:17:19.820 --> 01:17:20.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is Lifetimer.
[01:17:21.380 --> 01:17:21.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Lifetimer?
[01:17:22.100 --> 01:17:22.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[01:17:22.560 --> 01:17:22.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: How you doing?
[01:17:23.240 --> 01:17:23.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Fine.
[01:17:24.100 --> 01:17:24.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:17:24.780 --> 01:17:27.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: My perception on hope.
[01:17:28.020 --> 01:17:28.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[01:17:28.560 --> 01:17:29.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Blast.
[01:17:31.620 --> 01:17:32.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: What can I say?
[01:17:32.820 --> 01:17:34.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Pam, you still own me.
[01:17:34.860 --> 01:17:36.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: You own me.
[01:17:36.140 --> 01:17:40.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: I am 00025, I think.
[01:17:40.620 --> 01:17:40.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[01:17:42.100 --> 01:17:42.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:17:43.480 --> 01:17:44.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mimi.
[01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:49.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: My lady, I'm still enchanted by your beauty and by your character.
[01:17:50.300 --> 01:17:56.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Ned Weasel, you're still Cyber God, man, but I'm sorry, but Pam is still better.
[01:17:57.020 --> 01:18:00.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: And ask, ask, again, Wolf Game.
[01:18:00.380 --> 01:18:05.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Ask Wolf Game about why Pam is better than Ned Weasel in engineering.
[01:18:06.220 --> 01:18:07.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, what else?
[01:18:08.560 --> 01:18:09.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.
[01:18:09.520 --> 01:18:11.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I'm asleep for the better part.
[01:18:12.500 --> 01:18:13.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[01:18:14.160 --> 01:18:15.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Of, what else?
[01:18:15.700 --> 01:18:16.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.
[01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:18.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, and a big shout-out to Manos.
[01:18:18.980 --> 01:18:19.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, great.
[01:18:20.240 --> 01:18:20.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh...
[01:18:20.440 --> 01:18:23.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, thanks, thanks, thanks to Manos for being there.
[01:18:23.700 --> 01:18:26.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I mean, you want me to say something technical?
[01:18:26.160 --> 01:18:26.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.
[01:18:26.900 --> 01:18:27.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: Want to say something technical?
[01:18:28.020 --> 01:18:28.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: Go ahead.
[01:18:28.480 --> 01:18:28.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Say something technical.
[01:18:29.040 --> 01:18:29.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Technical?
[01:18:29.720 --> 01:18:35.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I've been trying to get on the show for a couple of weeks and I'm trying to do on web...
[01:18:37.700 --> 01:18:38.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: on web...
[01:18:38.420 --> 01:18:38.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: on web...
[01:18:38.740 --> 01:18:41.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: on web TV, but anyway, that'll be another story, all right?
[01:18:41.800 --> 01:18:42.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[01:18:42.380 --> 01:18:42.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:18:42.840 --> 01:18:43.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right, yeah, we'll talk about that tomorrow.
[01:18:43.860 --> 01:18:44.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, bye-bye.
[01:18:45.240 --> 01:18:45.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right, bye.
[01:18:46.520 --> 01:18:47.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: 212-279-3400.
[01:18:49.740 --> 01:18:50.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[01:18:54.620 --> 01:18:55.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[01:18:56.240 --> 01:18:57.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello, this is Howard.
[01:18:57.420 --> 01:18:58.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was at the conference.
[01:18:58.480 --> 01:19:00.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just wanted to say a couple things, what I noticed.
[01:19:01.080 --> 01:19:01.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, go ahead.
[01:19:01.600 --> 01:19:06.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, I'm known as sort of a gadget man and I didn't know what to expect.
[01:19:06.400 --> 01:19:16.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: I figured there'd be more than just computing there, so I thought I wouldn't be intimidated, but it was incredible who you got there, what they were talking about, and how friendly they were.
[01:19:16.900 --> 01:19:27.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I wanted to comment on that young lady that spoke earlier about people who might have been, say, trying to lead on to find out if they can catch somebody doing something wrong.
[01:19:27.040 --> 01:19:34.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I was kind of thinking the kind of crowd that I saw there that they were a little too sophisticated to get entrapped, if you will.
[01:19:35.460 --> 01:19:36.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: I wish I had...
[01:19:36.780 --> 01:19:39.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: I only shot in a few hours Saturday and Sunday.
[01:19:39.280 --> 01:19:53.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: I never got to meet you guys, because I kind of listened to your show and thought if I could have hung around and seen you guys and talked and learned a few things, it would have been to my benefit, but I just could not believe I was just inundated with information and very friendly people.
[01:19:53.900 --> 01:19:56.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was an excellent atmosphere, but it was very intense.
[01:19:57.580 --> 01:20:00.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: And these were like all-stars.
[01:20:00.600 --> 01:20:04.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, these were like people that just knew what they were doing and having a good time, and they were really friendly about it.
[01:20:04.980 --> 01:20:10.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I don't know how you could top it, but if you could do something even on that level again, it would be amazing.
[01:20:11.700 --> 01:20:12.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, we certainly would like to.
[01:20:13.160 --> 01:20:14.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: We certainly would like to.
[01:20:14.860 --> 01:20:15.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks for calling.
[01:20:15.660 --> 01:20:16.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks for coming.
[01:20:16.380 --> 01:20:16.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:20:16.840 --> 01:20:17.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thank you.
[01:20:17.340 --> 01:20:17.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: Take care.
[01:20:18.140 --> 01:20:22.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, the thing is everyone's saying to us, you know, we hope you can do this again, but it wasn't us who did it.
[01:20:22.460 --> 01:20:23.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was all of us.
[01:20:23.160 --> 01:20:32.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: I mean, it was the people who came, not just the people who organized it, because you have 2,000 angry people that have bad attitudes.
[01:20:32.820 --> 01:20:42.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: It doesn't matter how well you organize things, but you have 2,000 cool people who are willing to share knowledge and try different ways of doing things and listen to different people.
[01:20:43.280 --> 01:20:44.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's what makes it work.
[01:20:44.780 --> 01:20:47.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's really what makes it work, and that's what people come away with.
[01:20:47.580 --> 01:20:56.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: We also want to thank the people in the area, the people of the city, that just Just opened up, you know, their doors to all the people down there.
[01:20:56.100 --> 01:21:01.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: We're friendly to them and showed them all kinds of neat places to go, neat things to do.
[01:21:02.080 --> 01:21:02.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, Netweasel, what do you have?
[01:21:02.960 --> 01:21:12.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, about the whole Narc situation and the lady from Steal This Radio, I hate to give away the secret, but what most people don't know is, is we got most of our secrets from Deanna Warwick's Psychic Friends Network.
[01:21:13.080 --> 01:21:13.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[01:21:13.860 --> 01:21:18.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: So we had a whole lease line going right to the network there the whole time, so we couldn't figure something out.
[01:21:18.340 --> 01:21:24.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: We just asked Deanna what was up, and you'd be surprised how fluent she is in the flavors of eunuchs.
[01:21:24.980 --> 01:21:27.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, she's really a wizard at that.
[01:21:28.140 --> 01:21:28.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: She is.
[01:21:29.040 --> 01:21:31.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was very surprised at her knowledge of the MetroCard, too.
[01:21:31.740 --> 01:21:31.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[01:21:32.220 --> 01:21:40.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, she's the only person known to have pulled off actually getting a good cloning of the MetroCard without getting caught.
[01:21:40.420 --> 01:21:41.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was just amazed.
[01:21:41.400 --> 01:21:41.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:41.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was amazed.
[01:21:41.920 --> 01:21:43.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, call the Psychic Friends Network and ask them about that.
[01:21:43.820 --> 01:21:45.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, so just if someone asks...
[01:21:45.120 --> 01:21:48.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: If you ask about it, they'll tell you, but if you don't ask about it, they're not going to volunteer the information.
[01:21:48.100 --> 01:21:48.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's my understanding.
[01:21:49.480 --> 01:21:49.880]  Yeah.
[01:21:49.960 --> 01:21:53.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, and after tonight, they might not even tell you if you ask them, but you have to be very persistent.
[01:21:53.960 --> 01:21:54.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right.
[01:21:54.900 --> 01:21:56.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: 212-279-3400.
[01:21:57.140 --> 01:21:57.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening.
[01:21:57.840 --> 01:21:58.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: You're on the air.
[01:21:58.660 --> 01:21:59.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[01:21:59.640 --> 01:22:00.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: How you doing?
[01:22:00.460 --> 01:22:01.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, it's me, Eyeball.
[01:22:01.700 --> 01:22:02.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: How you doing?
[01:22:02.540 --> 01:22:03.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, fine.
[01:22:03.380 --> 01:22:03.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: I want...
[01:22:03.920 --> 01:22:05.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: You helped us quite a bit, too.
[01:22:05.260 --> 01:22:05.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, thanks.
[01:22:06.340 --> 01:22:11.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, I'd like to say something about the other hook broadcast from, uh, the Pug Building.
[01:22:11.860 --> 01:22:12.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes.
[01:22:12.080 --> 01:22:19.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, thing is, there's somebody who's jamming us, and nobody could get the signal inside the Pug Building, but everywhere else, you would get it.
[01:22:19.960 --> 01:22:22.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, no, there was some wise guy going around jamming the transmission.
[01:22:22.880 --> 01:22:28.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, you see, the thing is, the only people that affected were people walking around with, uh, with Walkmans listening inside the building.
[01:22:28.500 --> 01:22:32.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: So, yeah, that's... it's pretty easy to... to jam any signal within, say, a building.
[01:22:33.320 --> 01:22:42.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, uh, you know, there were people running around thinking that it was jamming the whole city, and that just simply was not the case, because you can't really overpower a 50,000 watt radio station that easily.
[01:22:42.860 --> 01:22:48.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, plus, on this stage at TTM, my brother had, uh, uh, like, he started sleepwalking.
[01:22:49.080 --> 01:22:49.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um...
[01:22:49.520 --> 01:22:50.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: He started sleepwalking?
[01:22:50.780 --> 01:22:56.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, and everybody said he was on a bad-ass trip, because he was acting like a jerk, and he didn't remember it.
[01:22:57.540 --> 01:23:01.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, then, uh, like, thanks, me...
[01:23:01.160 --> 01:23:03.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: Is he aware of what you're... what you're saying here?
[01:23:03.160 --> 01:23:03.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, yeah.
[01:23:04.220 --> 01:23:04.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[01:23:05.560 --> 01:23:12.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, I like that, uh, um, and, like, say hi to Pam, Meme, Cyber Weasel, everybody.
[01:23:13.060 --> 01:23:26.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, uh, Captain Crunch, I know why he got gun, um, to be on Hope, because, like, I was emailing... I emailed him, like, uh, uh, I think in June, and asked him if he's going to go to be on Hope.
[01:23:26.580 --> 01:23:33.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: He said probably because he's going to be in the area, but he's going to keep a low profile, and, uh, so...
[01:23:33.580 --> 01:23:33.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[01:23:33.880 --> 01:23:41.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: I guess that's that, and, uh, I'd like to say hi to everybody who met me there, and that's it.
[01:23:41.600 --> 01:23:45.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, well, thanks very much for the help, and thanks for coming, and, uh, we'll talk to you again soon.
[01:23:45.800 --> 01:23:46.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, bye.
[01:23:46.600 --> 01:23:48.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, now, Net Weasel, you had something to add?
[01:23:48.320 --> 01:23:49.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'd like to thank Doug and Ray.
[01:23:50.100 --> 01:23:51.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, oh, yes, Doug and Ray.
[01:23:51.580 --> 01:23:52.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: How can we forget them?
[01:23:52.400 --> 01:23:56.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: For all the radio help, for forgetting that, uh, you know, that, uh, broadcast...
[01:23:56.920 --> 01:23:57.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Don't forget about Iggy.
[01:23:58.400 --> 01:23:59.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, you didn't forget about Iggy.
[01:23:59.420 --> 01:23:59.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: You didn't?
[01:24:00.060 --> 01:24:00.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[01:24:00.400 --> 01:24:02.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: We talked about Iggy for about 25 minutes before.
[01:24:02.740 --> 01:24:03.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that's right.
[01:24:03.440 --> 01:24:06.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, we had a big tribute to Iggy, with star-studded extravaganzas and all that.
[01:24:06.900 --> 01:24:07.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I got the soundtrack that was about.
[01:24:07.860 --> 01:24:08.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[01:24:08.740 --> 01:24:09.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, thanks, Doug and Ray.
[01:24:09.980 --> 01:24:11.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, thanks to Doug and Ray for all of that.
[01:24:12.040 --> 01:24:25.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, thanks to Cheshire Catalyst for coming in and helping out as well, and putting on some really, uh, uh, a good discussion of low-bandwidth access as well, for those people that don't have the, you know, the spiffiest technology to, uh, to play around with.
[01:24:25.920 --> 01:24:34.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, of course, Bernie, yes, really good to see him, really good to see him in New York to, to, you know, hear his voice come out over the radio, uh, you know, not on the phone.
[01:24:35.380 --> 01:24:37.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: And, uh, that was, uh, that was a thrill for all of us.
[01:24:38.840 --> 01:24:41.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, 212-279-3400.
[01:24:41.960 --> 01:24:43.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: See who else is out there.
[01:24:44.220 --> 01:24:45.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[01:24:46.060 --> 01:24:47.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, no, you're not, okay.
[01:24:47.420 --> 01:24:48.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let's try this one.
[01:24:48.260 --> 01:24:49.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[01:24:54.200 --> 01:24:55.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, that's, that's him.
[01:24:55.180 --> 01:24:55.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hey.
[01:24:55.460 --> 01:24:56.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, there you are, okay.
[01:24:57.520 --> 01:24:57.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes.
[01:24:57.800 --> 01:24:58.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's up, dude?
[01:24:58.340 --> 01:24:58.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: How you doing?
[01:24:58.900 --> 01:25:00.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: You want to say something, or you want to listen to the radio?
[01:25:00.620 --> 01:25:02.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you know what was the most amazing thing to watch?
[01:25:02.840 --> 01:25:03.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: What was that?
[01:25:03.460 --> 01:25:04.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Was, uh, this prom.
[01:25:05.320 --> 01:25:05.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: Is this Chris?
[01:25:06.120 --> 01:25:06.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[01:25:06.540 --> 01:25:08.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: Chris, you're supposed to be here in the studio.
[01:25:08.080 --> 01:25:08.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: I know, but I...
[01:25:08.920 --> 01:25:09.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: What are you doing on the phone?
[01:25:09.540 --> 01:25:10.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: I overslept, okay.
[01:25:10.740 --> 01:25:11.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: You overslept.
[01:25:11.520 --> 01:25:12.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: What's with all this?
[01:25:12.220 --> 01:25:13.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: Everyone's sleeping now.
[01:25:16.040 --> 01:25:16.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: Keep going, come on.
[01:25:17.040 --> 01:25:17.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, we'll have a day job.
[01:25:17.680 --> 01:25:18.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hustle, hustle, hustle.
[01:25:18.400 --> 01:25:19.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:25:19.400 --> 01:25:27.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right, Chris, you know, you're the person that we were waiting for, because we didn't, we didn't, we didn't want to leave you out, but, but Chris is the guy who ran the sound.
[01:25:27.800 --> 01:25:29.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: Not really, because...
[01:25:29.180 --> 01:25:30.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: You ran the sound.
[01:25:30.200 --> 01:25:30.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: You did it.
[01:25:30.940 --> 01:25:31.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, but...
[01:25:31.060 --> 01:25:32.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: You made, you made everybody sound good.
[01:25:33.160 --> 01:25:33.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: You were there.
[01:25:33.440 --> 01:25:36.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Actually, that was, that was majorly Isaac, Doug, and...
[01:25:36.800 --> 01:25:37.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, no.
[01:25:37.140 --> 01:25:42.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: One person who couldn't have been done without is Patty, because she got all that gear for so cheap.
[01:25:43.000 --> 01:25:43.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:25:43.580 --> 01:25:44.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Big shout out to her.
[01:25:44.740 --> 01:25:46.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: We're looking into how she did that, actually.
[01:25:46.520 --> 01:25:46.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[01:25:46.900 --> 01:25:48.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm wondering, how'd she get those?
[01:25:48.120 --> 01:26:00.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: You don't know how she pulled this one off, but, but Chris, you're the guy who sat behind the board with all those knobs that nobody understands what they do, and, you know, kept setting them to just, you know, the right setting so that they do good things,
[01:26:00.580 --> 01:26:01.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: not bad things.
[01:26:01.440 --> 01:26:02.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: But anyway, so...
[01:26:02.400 --> 01:26:05.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: And you also, you also played the music in the main lecture room, which was really cool.
[01:26:06.100 --> 01:26:09.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: We had some people throwing stuff to me and giving me stuff to play.
[01:26:09.820 --> 01:26:10.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: That was cool.
[01:26:10.660 --> 01:26:10.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[01:26:11.440 --> 01:26:11.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[01:26:11.800 --> 01:26:16.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: So if you liked the music in the lecture room, that was totally, totally Chris.
[01:26:16.240 --> 01:26:19.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: If you liked the music in the network room, though, that was DHP.
[01:26:20.740 --> 01:26:21.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: DHP guys rule.
[01:26:21.900 --> 01:26:23.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: Those guys are incredible.
[01:26:23.320 --> 01:26:30.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: They came out from Pittsburgh, which normally, you know, you don't have a positive view of Pittsburgh, but these guys make Pittsburgh look cool.
[01:26:30.600 --> 01:26:31.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:26:31.200 --> 01:26:32.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: I want to go visit now.
[01:26:32.660 --> 01:26:33.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: They...
[01:26:33.060 --> 01:26:36.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, I can't guarantee that it'll look good, but if you see them, it'll look great.
[01:26:37.220 --> 01:26:39.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: The thing is, um, they...
[01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:40.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'd say we make a trek down there and check it out.
[01:26:41.440 --> 01:26:41.980]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, let's pause.
[01:26:42.040 --> 01:26:43.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, you've got to go all across Pennsylvania.
[01:26:43.660 --> 01:26:44.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know what kind of horrible state that is.
[01:26:45.100 --> 01:26:45.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I know.
[01:26:46.060 --> 01:26:49.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, yeah, they brought machinery, you know, of all sorts.
[01:26:49.240 --> 01:26:56.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: In fact, at the Hope.net machine, which, uh, one person from Canada managed to get rude on, or get very close to getting rude on.
[01:26:56.280 --> 01:26:57.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: I heard that guy was a genius, by the way.
[01:26:57.720 --> 01:26:58.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: He was pretty smart.
[01:26:58.740 --> 01:26:59.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: There were a lot of really smart people there.
[01:26:59.880 --> 01:27:00.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: What was his handle again?
[01:27:00.300 --> 01:27:01.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: He came from...
[01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:02.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't know his...
[01:27:02.340 --> 01:27:02.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: Ottawa.
[01:27:03.040 --> 01:27:04.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: Ottawa was not his handle.
[01:27:04.140 --> 01:27:04.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: That was his city.
[01:27:05.340 --> 01:27:05.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: QX9.
[01:27:06.160 --> 01:27:06.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: QX9.
[01:27:06.960 --> 01:27:07.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: QX9, yeah.
[01:27:07.460 --> 01:27:08.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, that was his...
[01:27:08.180 --> 01:27:08.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: I heard that.
[01:27:08.760 --> 01:27:09.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: That was his handle.
[01:27:09.240 --> 01:27:10.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: People were watching what he was doing.
[01:27:10.800 --> 01:27:12.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: They were like, this guy's a genius.
[01:27:12.120 --> 01:27:16.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, they had to step away because of, you know, the glow of light as he was typing, you know, on the keyboard.
[01:27:17.040 --> 01:27:17.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was just too intense.
[01:27:18.460 --> 01:27:20.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, yeah, we had a lot of people like that there.
[01:27:20.520 --> 01:27:21.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: And this kid was really...
[01:27:21.800 --> 01:27:28.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, we wanted to give him a clipper chip to take home, but we realized that would be violating the law to cross the border, and, uh, we didn't want to do that.
[01:27:28.280 --> 01:27:28.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: We don't want to do that.
[01:27:28.760 --> 01:27:29.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, no, no, no.
[01:27:29.520 --> 01:27:33.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: So we gave him something from a crackerjack box, and he seemed happy with that, and sent him on his way.
[01:27:34.200 --> 01:27:35.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: Maybe he'll come back next time.
[01:27:36.480 --> 01:27:39.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: We want to thank you very much for being a part of that, for making it all work.
[01:27:39.680 --> 01:27:42.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: You did the sound on the last one, but I think you did a much better job this time.
[01:27:42.920 --> 01:27:45.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: He didn't do a great job last time, but this time he did.
[01:27:45.100 --> 01:27:46.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I wasn't there half the time last time.
[01:27:46.180 --> 01:27:46.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: An inhuman.
[01:27:46.620 --> 01:27:47.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's true, too.
[01:27:47.540 --> 01:27:48.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's true, too.
[01:27:49.640 --> 01:27:50.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, um...
[01:27:50.280 --> 01:27:51.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: But Diffprong, man.
[01:27:51.380 --> 01:27:51.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: That was amazing.
[01:27:51.820 --> 01:27:54.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: That wasn't that amazing, Diffprong, showing up like that.
[01:27:54.300 --> 01:27:57.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, he just sat back there and just, like, took a couple of pictures.
[01:27:57.920 --> 01:28:05.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Meanwhile, this other photographer with his huge cameras falling all over the place, and I don't know if you saw any of the pictures in other papers, but...
[01:28:06.120 --> 01:28:08.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now, you look at the picture in the New York Times, right?
[01:28:08.980 --> 01:28:12.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: You look at the picture on the front page of the New York Times yesterday...
[01:28:12.520 --> 01:28:12.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's genius.
[01:28:12.960 --> 01:28:18.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: And you just see the little bell, the little cracked bell in the upper left-hand corner, just very subtle, you know?
[01:28:18.300 --> 01:28:20.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: And that's, like, that's what a photographer should do.
[01:28:20.860 --> 01:28:24.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: If only they could get people who could write, like, their photographers can shoot.
[01:28:24.140 --> 01:28:25.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Right, absolutely.
[01:28:26.220 --> 01:28:28.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, unfortunately, we can never see that happen.
[01:28:28.640 --> 01:28:29.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Can't have everything, you know?
[01:28:29.580 --> 01:28:31.260]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, but I was just so honored to meet that guy.
[01:28:31.340 --> 01:28:32.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: Chris, we are out of time.
[01:28:32.460 --> 01:28:38.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: I want to thank, also, Ryan.net, Ryan of Ryan.net, that is, for all his hard work and ceaseless efforts.
[01:28:39.440 --> 01:28:41.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: Anybody have anything they want to say?
[01:28:41.260 --> 01:28:43.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: Any other people they want to add or say anything more about other people?
[01:28:44.740 --> 01:28:45.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Go ahead, Patty.
[01:28:45.820 --> 01:28:49.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: I want to thank all those kids that got their hands wet with the sodas.
[01:28:49.940 --> 01:28:51.660]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, there were so many of those.
[01:28:51.800 --> 01:28:52.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: There were so many of those.
[01:28:52.520 --> 01:28:53.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, and that weasel, yes.
[01:28:55.000 --> 01:28:57.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: I want to thank Mrs. Hacking for being so lovely.
[01:28:59.520 --> 01:29:00.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Major Hacking's wife, yes.
[01:29:00.960 --> 01:29:01.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: She was so nice.
[01:29:02.180 --> 01:29:02.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: She was, she really was.
[01:29:02.900 --> 01:29:06.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: She asked for a magazine, and they were just, they were so nice.
[01:29:06.140 --> 01:29:07.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: They were two of the nicest people.
[01:29:07.520 --> 01:29:08.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: They were very nice.
[01:29:08.520 --> 01:29:09.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: They said they loved us, and...
[01:29:09.840 --> 01:29:10.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Those cookies are delicious.
[01:29:10.920 --> 01:29:19.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now, okay, now, we don't really advertise cookies, but if you're interested in the Major Hacking cookies, if you want to, like, carry them in the city or something like that, because they don't, uh...
[01:29:19.360 --> 01:29:20.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: Should we give a phone number?
[01:29:20.160 --> 01:29:21.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, yeah, we can give a phone number.
[01:29:21.100 --> 01:29:23.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: We're out, because we happen to have one of their cookies here.
[01:29:23.780 --> 01:29:26.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, 516-329-0314.
[01:29:26.560 --> 01:29:27.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: Major Hacking.
[01:29:27.280 --> 01:29:31.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: I think a lot of people in the city will be asking for them now, so that was, that was really, uh, kind of cool.
[01:29:31.420 --> 01:29:31.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, yeah.
[01:29:31.460 --> 01:29:35.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: If you want, you want to go through us, too, you want to talk to us, uh, you know, we'll help out as well.
[01:29:36.240 --> 01:29:38.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, well, thanks, everybody, for, for calling in.
[01:29:38.600 --> 01:29:45.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was a fun show, and a great conference, and, uh, I'm sure we'll be, we'll be talking about it in, in weeks to come.
[01:29:45.400 --> 01:29:51.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: We'll have the real audio up, we'll have pictures up, and, uh, videos available soon, and we hope you all had a good time there.
[01:29:52.480 --> 01:29:53.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: Stay tuned for Housing Notebook.
[01:29:53.780 --> 01:29:55.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein for Off The Hook.
[01:29:55.760 --> 01:29:56.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: See you next week.
[01:29:56.680 --> 01:29:57.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Have a good night.