Off The Hook - 1997-11-18

[00:22.690 --> 00:31.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Lebanese journalist Mona Atway takes us on a pilgrimage to Kana Shrine, site of the 1996 Israeli bombing of a refugee camp in South Lebanon.
[00:31.810 --> 00:37.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Barbara Nimri-Aziz, inviting you to join us this Saturday, November 22nd, at 3 p.m.
[00:37.590 --> 00:39.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's on Arab Voice Crescent Rising.
[00:40.230 --> 00:46.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's WBAI's weekly program devoted to the Arab and Muslim community here and abroad.
[00:46.790 --> 00:48.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Saturday, 3 to 4 p.m.
[00:48.630 --> 00:52.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: on WBAI, listener-sponsored radio in New York.
[01:01.380 --> 01:07.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Treat yourself to a night on the town and join us for the second celebration of the fifth anniversary of Wake Up Call.
[01:07.690 --> 01:12.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: This stellar event will take place on Saturday, November 22nd, at 9 p.m.
[01:12.460 --> 01:20.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: at the spectacular Mark Ballroom, located at 27 Union Square West, between 15th and 16th Streets in downtown Manhattan.
[01:20.410 --> 01:31.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Where else can you dance to the hottest in salsa, reggae, oldies, R&B, and calypso, spun by your favorite BAI radio personalities, while supporting the best morning talk show on the planet?
[01:32.120 --> 01:39.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wake Up Call hats and T-shirts, which make great holiday gifts, will be available, and there'll be plenty of door prizes and giveaways.
[01:39.340 --> 01:42.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Island Cuisine will be provided by Sapodilla Cafe.
[01:42.380 --> 01:49.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Many will stay late, but even if you have to leave early, you shouldn't miss out on the biggest, best party celebration of the year.
[01:49.660 --> 01:52.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: To secure your spot on the dance floor, don't delay.
[01:52.380 --> 01:55.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: Call now, 2-1-2-2-8-9-5-9-5-1.
[01:55.920 --> 01:59.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's 2-1-2-2-8-9-5-9-5-1.
[01:59.320 --> 02:03.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: This celebration is sponsored by WIRE, the Women's International Resource Exchange.
[02:03.820 --> 02:04.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Don't miss it.
[02:08.400 --> 02:09.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's just about 8 o'clock.
[02:10.000 --> 02:11.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Time for another edition of Off the Hook.
[02:16.220 --> 02:17.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, isn't that too bad?
[02:17.200 --> 02:19.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: The machine is eating the tape.
[02:20.020 --> 02:21.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I guess we don't have a theme for tonight.
[02:23.060 --> 02:26.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: We may not have a theme ever again, the way that thing looks.
[02:26.280 --> 02:27.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wow, look at that go.
[02:27.760 --> 02:32.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, well, what we're going to do here is put on some alternate music that we have for just such an emergency.
[02:33.240 --> 02:33.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: No business.
[03:04.550 --> 03:05.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: We fixed it.
[03:45.740 --> 03:58.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we're off to another breathtaking start here on another exciting edition of Off the Hook, being broadcast on 99.5 FM in New York City and around the world on the Internet.
[04:00.420 --> 04:08.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: And tonight, we have a special guest who has been in the midst of some Internet-related things that have been going on.
[04:09.360 --> 04:10.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: You may have heard about this.
[04:10.640 --> 04:22.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you read some newsletters, subscribe to some mailing lists, you may have seen something about a police search, or at least a request for a police search at an Internet service provider.
[04:23.680 --> 04:25.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And something really unusual happened.
[04:25.440 --> 04:28.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Internet service provider refused to cooperate.
[04:29.530 --> 04:31.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that kind of thing just doesn't happen around here.
[04:31.400 --> 04:33.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this didn't happen around here either.
[04:33.480 --> 04:34.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: This happened in Holland.
[04:35.340 --> 04:41.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, we have Maurice with us, who is part of Access for All, which I guess is the biggest provider in Holland.
[04:42.170 --> 04:42.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maurice, are you there?
[04:43.080 --> 04:43.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, hi.
[04:43.560 --> 04:44.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: How are you doing?
[04:44.410 --> 04:46.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: So tell us just what happened.
[04:46.220 --> 04:47.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are you refusing to cooperate with the police, huh?
[04:48.060 --> 04:48.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[04:48.480 --> 04:52.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we're not the biggest one, but we're fairly big.
[04:52.740 --> 04:54.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, you're not the biggest, but you're fairly big.
[04:54.480 --> 04:54.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[04:54.790 --> 04:55.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[04:55.650 --> 05:26.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, what happened is about two weeks ago, a detective and a computer expert from the forensic science laboratories in Holland came to our offices, and they gave us an instruction from the Ministry of Justice and telling us to tap all internet traffic to and from a user on our system for the length of a month and then supplying all the information to the police.
[05:28.810 --> 05:38.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: They had a technical solution also, telling us to make an ICP, TCP IP dump of this traffic.
[05:40.740 --> 05:43.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you didn't cooperate with this?
[05:44.080 --> 05:59.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we got some legal advice and the conclusion was that there is really not any legal basis to ask anything like this from us in Dutch law.
[06:01.340 --> 06:06.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: So our conclusion was we were asked to do something illegal.
[06:06.720 --> 06:07.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: So we refused.
[06:08.380 --> 06:11.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, what would this have involved you actually doing, though?
[06:11.280 --> 06:13.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: This monitoring all traffic coming to and from this place?
[06:14.100 --> 06:16.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: You mean in the practical, technical sense?
[06:16.620 --> 06:17.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[06:18.500 --> 06:19.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: It would...
[06:22.200 --> 06:27.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: It would involve us installing a PC in one of our POPs.
[06:28.740 --> 06:32.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: The POP where this user is actually dialing in.
[06:33.840 --> 06:47.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: And this PC would make a TCP IP dump and police would be able to FTP every morning the dump from the day before.
[06:48.360 --> 06:48.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, really?
[06:48.960 --> 06:52.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: So they would save it in a nice little file for them and they'd just download it?
[06:52.420 --> 06:52.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[06:53.140 --> 06:53.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[06:53.420 --> 06:56.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course, anybody else would be able to do this too if they knew the right password.
[06:56.200 --> 06:57.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[06:57.640 --> 07:05.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it would also need us to secretly give this user a fixed IP address.
[07:05.550 --> 07:06.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[07:08.170 --> 07:11.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Which most users, of course, will never find out.
[07:11.810 --> 07:12.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[07:12.790 --> 07:18.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, is this pretty much standard practice in other parts of the world to do this kind of thing with the police?
[07:18.480 --> 07:29.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, as far as we know, this is really the first first first thing that happened in Holland asking such a far-reaching
[07:32.840 --> 07:33.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: technical measure.
[07:34.440 --> 07:36.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: As far as we know, it never happened before in Holland.
[07:37.140 --> 07:38.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: It never happened before in Western Europe.
[07:38.960 --> 07:39.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[07:39.810 --> 07:43.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I can't really speak about the rest of the world.
[07:44.790 --> 07:57.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: You have to remember that in Europe, especially in Holland, normal wiretapping of telephones is far more used than in the United States.
[07:58.700 --> 07:59.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's great.
[07:59.000 --> 08:04.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wiretapping of telephones is a very, very normal practice in any police investigation.
[08:05.220 --> 08:05.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[08:06.000 --> 08:14.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, the police was thinking that they could now try to get this whole wiretapping thing into the Internet.
[08:15.240 --> 08:21.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, the real problem, of course, is that they can't tap modem traffic from a telephone line.
[08:23.020 --> 08:24.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Technically, they're not able to.
[08:26.720 --> 08:28.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, they have to go to the source.
[08:28.660 --> 08:31.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: They have to go to the Internet service provider to do so.
[08:31.720 --> 08:31.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[08:34.120 --> 08:34.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Interesting.
[08:34.760 --> 08:37.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, we have this kind of thing here in the United States.
[08:37.670 --> 08:38.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Actually, Fiber's here.
[08:39.760 --> 08:40.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Here I am.
[08:40.600 --> 08:40.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: How are you doing?
[08:41.640 --> 08:45.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: What do you know about cooperation with the authorities?
[08:47.000 --> 08:53.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's say you have a mischievous user and the authorities want to spy on him for a while.
[08:53.930 --> 08:57.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are we compelled in this country to cooperate with them?
[08:57.360 --> 09:01.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: If we're an Internet service provider, do we have to give them the logs, the traffic?
[09:01.900 --> 09:04.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, here in Holland, they were asking, I imagine, for everything, right?
[09:04.760 --> 09:06.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Every bit of data going in and out, not just logs.
[09:07.340 --> 09:08.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, everything.
[09:08.200 --> 09:08.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: The whole thing.
[09:08.980 --> 09:09.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[09:10.020 --> 09:15.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, unless there's actually an investigation, I mean, the authorities can subpoena the information.
[09:16.500 --> 09:17.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Otherwise, if they don't...
[09:17.660 --> 09:19.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the information has to be captured in the first place for them to do that.
[09:19.960 --> 09:20.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, obviously.
[09:20.790 --> 09:20.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[09:21.050 --> 09:21.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[09:21.380 --> 09:21.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not.
[09:22.240 --> 09:22.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[09:22.740 --> 09:24.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, if it's not, then it's not.
[09:24.160 --> 09:24.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[09:24.280 --> 09:29.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: But can they compel us here to capture that information for them in an ongoing investigation?
[09:29.780 --> 09:36.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I think people would usually be compelled to do something like that to otherwise avoid harassment from the authorities.
[09:37.500 --> 09:39.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I mean, you could just cancel the person's account.
[09:39.860 --> 09:42.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, would that be illegal to cancel the person's account?
[09:43.020 --> 09:43.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[09:43.950 --> 09:45.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're compelled to provide service to a criminal?
[09:46.140 --> 09:46.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Certainly not.
[09:47.950 --> 09:50.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are these some of the things that you weighed over there, Maurice?
[09:50.900 --> 09:58.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, in Holland, the law is that they can ask us for information that's on our system, existing information.
[09:59.190 --> 10:05.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like, they can ask us to give them the name of the user, his real name, his address.
[10:06.580 --> 10:11.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: They could ask us to give the contents of his mailbox.
[10:12.100 --> 10:15.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: At the moment, they're asking for it.
[10:15.420 --> 10:23.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: But what they can't do, and what they're trying now, is to ask for information that's not on the system already, but will be in the future.
[10:25.000 --> 10:36.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's the whole step they're trying to make now, from information that's that's on the system going to information that will go through the system.
[10:36.920 --> 10:37.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[10:37.570 --> 10:38.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's the next step.
[10:39.160 --> 10:48.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm very sure that there will be possibilities in the law for them to do that in the future, but at the moment it's not possible.
[10:48.900 --> 10:53.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: So basically they want to turn you into an extension of their investigative arm.
[10:53.880 --> 10:54.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, yes.
[10:55.170 --> 10:58.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, they're asking us to make all the technical measurements.
[10:58.640 --> 11:00.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're asking us to do the capturing.
[11:00.420 --> 11:02.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're asking us to do everything.
[11:03.060 --> 11:08.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: So they must be kind of upset with you now having refused to do this and refused to do so publicly, too.
[11:23.280 --> 11:26.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: which are supporting us very well.
[11:27.120 --> 11:32.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: But you could also look at this from another side.
[11:32.920 --> 11:42.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: You could also think that they are trying to prove that there should be a law making this possible.
[11:43.710 --> 11:54.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because I can't really believe that Dutch police would come to Access For All in the belief that we would cooperate with such a thing.
[11:54.400 --> 11:59.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: They must have calculated on forehand that we would refuse.
[12:00.460 --> 12:02.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm very confident about that.
[12:03.540 --> 12:06.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: So you're saying they just want to make a point.
[12:07.100 --> 12:08.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're trying to make you a test case.
[12:09.300 --> 12:10.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sure, yeah.
[12:10.320 --> 12:14.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: So that they can have this be expected of other ISPs in the future.
[12:15.120 --> 12:26.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: They can go to the parliament now and say you see we need a law to make this kinds of panic among your users wondering which of them it was that was being investigated by
[12:52.560 --> 13:06.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: We decided we are not going to tell what the criminal act is, we're not going to tell who the user is, we're even not going to tell what part of the country the police is asking us.
[13:08.260 --> 13:10.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: And there are two reasons for this.
[13:10.680 --> 13:21.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: The first reason is, if we would say so, police could accuse us of obstructing the investigation, even making the investigation impossible.
[13:21.240 --> 13:21.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[13:22.480 --> 13:23.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: We don't want that.
[13:24.260 --> 13:34.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Second thing is, the whole discussion about this will then go towards a discussion about how bad the crime is.
[13:35.200 --> 13:44.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if the conclusion in that discussion is that this crime is very bad, then maybe we should have worked together with the police.
[13:44.780 --> 13:52.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: The actual crime would obscure what it is that you're trying to point out, mainly that the ISP should not be put in the role of monitoring the user.
[13:52.800 --> 13:55.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Any discussion about the crime should be in court.
[13:55.380 --> 13:55.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[13:56.000 --> 13:56.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Not with us.
[13:56.820 --> 14:01.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: We just want to make a point about the legal basis of the whole instruction.
[14:01.860 --> 14:04.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, to what degree would your cooperation extend?
[14:04.710 --> 14:07.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: If they just asked for logs, would you provide those?
[14:07.200 --> 14:11.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I can tell you what is happening very regularly.
[14:12.160 --> 14:22.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: And what happens a few times per month is police asking us who is the in-real-life person behind the email address.
[14:22.420 --> 14:22.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[14:23.060 --> 14:24.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what happens then?
[14:24.400 --> 14:25.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Do you have that information?
[14:25.540 --> 14:37.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: If they have a serious instruction with all the autographs and all the legal details that are required, then we'll give it.
[14:38.580 --> 14:39.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: I see.
[14:39.400 --> 14:39.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: We have to.
[14:40.720 --> 14:41.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[14:41.880 --> 14:46.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's a very clear legal basis for them to ask such a thing.
[14:46.360 --> 14:47.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: We can't refuse that.
[14:47.780 --> 14:51.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, did they come to you with the same legal papers this time?
[14:52.500 --> 14:54.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, the same one, but...
[14:54.680 --> 14:55.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: They wanted a bit more.
[14:56.300 --> 14:57.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: They wanted a bit more.
[14:57.260 --> 14:58.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: They wanted far more.
[15:00.980 --> 15:01.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wow.
[15:01.710 --> 15:08.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I only hope people in other parts of the world, and including this country, would take a stand like that, you know, stand up to authority.
[15:08.880 --> 15:11.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, it must have been kind of scary having to do this.
[15:11.440 --> 15:12.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who was it who actually made the decision?
[15:14.830 --> 15:15.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Was it a committee?
[15:15.800 --> 15:18.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Was it a single person there meeting the police?
[15:18.330 --> 15:19.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or did it all happen through the mail?
[15:19.640 --> 15:32.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, we had a discussion within the company, but we came within an hour to the conclusion that we should refuse it.
[15:34.680 --> 15:36.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: It all went very fast.
[15:37.120 --> 15:39.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: And no reaction as of yet from the police?
[15:39.760 --> 15:48.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, but I expect them to come in every moment to make up a report for a refusal, because the refusal is a crime.
[15:50.080 --> 15:52.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Refusal to basically do what they said?
[15:52.210 --> 15:57.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: To work with the instruction, to not give them what they want, is a crime.
[15:58.080 --> 16:02.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, but there is no legal basis for them asking for that in the first place, is there?
[16:02.800 --> 16:03.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[16:03.180 --> 16:11.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: So this means that our case will go to court, and the court will decide if our refusal was right or wrong.
[16:11.700 --> 16:13.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's exactly what we want now.
[16:14.820 --> 16:18.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: We have asked them to please bring us to court.
[16:18.380 --> 16:19.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Please do it.
[16:19.420 --> 16:19.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[16:20.090 --> 16:22.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I'm sure the rest of the internet community will be watching this.
[16:22.800 --> 16:26.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is there any way people can get updates or help out in any way?
[16:26.660 --> 16:28.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, we have a website.
[16:29.360 --> 16:32.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: And we keep all the updates on our website.
[16:33.180 --> 16:43.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's www.xs4all.nl Okay, that's xs4all.nl Yeah, right.
[16:43.420 --> 16:44.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then I'll give all the updates.
[16:44.380 --> 16:45.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is there anything people here can do to help?
[16:47.210 --> 16:51.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, not at the moment, because we're still waiting for any response.
[16:51.780 --> 16:53.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Nothing really happened yet.
[16:53.760 --> 17:01.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: But as soon as we have some kind of response, we'll send out a request if needed.
[17:01.500 --> 17:04.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, Maurice from Access4All, you guys have always been an inspiration to us over here.
[17:05.420 --> 17:07.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I want to thank you for staying up late and talking to us today.
[17:08.210 --> 17:08.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[17:08.840 --> 17:09.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks a lot.
[17:09.500 --> 17:10.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Best of luck.
[17:10.380 --> 17:10.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[17:11.100 --> 17:11.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bye.
[17:11.700 --> 17:11.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bye-bye.
[17:42.260 --> 17:46.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, I'm told we have about 200 listeners on the internet right now, which is great.
[17:47.340 --> 17:51.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[17:51.400 --> 17:55.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you're calling from outside the country, country code 1.
[17:56.860 --> 18:00.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, of course, if you're in New York City, you don't have to file the area card or any of that.
[18:00.820 --> 18:02.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: So you have a tremendous advantage.
[18:03.240 --> 18:03.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: 200 listeners.
[18:04.080 --> 18:05.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that's more than we ever had before.
[18:05.660 --> 18:06.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not bad.
[18:06.360 --> 18:06.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's a lot.
[18:06.820 --> 18:07.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: It keeps growing week after week.
[18:09.540 --> 18:11.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, lots of interesting things happening this week.
[18:11.720 --> 18:12.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, boy.
[18:13.140 --> 18:14.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: This Dutch thing is just one of them.
[18:15.660 --> 18:17.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: But you know what I heard on the radio on the way in today?
[18:18.320 --> 18:19.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is unbelievable.
[18:19.140 --> 18:32.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: The latest thing that they're doing for New Jersey teenagers who have run afoul of the law, all right, these are people that, you know, have some kind of juvenile problem with the police and they need to be monitored.
[18:34.580 --> 18:38.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, basically what's happening is they're being given ankle bracelets.
[18:39.480 --> 18:40.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Nothing really unusual there.
[18:40.780 --> 18:44.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: But they're also being given these four-pound devices that they have to carry with them all the time.
[18:44.820 --> 18:46.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Do you know what those four-pound devices do?
[18:47.380 --> 18:48.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, let me guess.
[18:49.100 --> 18:50.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're a homing beacon.
[18:50.260 --> 18:50.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Exactly.
[18:50.800 --> 18:57.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: But basically, these juvenile delinquents are tied in by a GPS and they're whereabouts are monitored at all times.
[18:58.040 --> 18:59.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Satellites tracking teenagers in New Jersey.
[19:00.100 --> 19:00.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's when...
[19:00.860 --> 19:03.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Remember a few years ago when our bulletin board got busted?
[19:03.660 --> 19:06.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was New Jersey teens tracking satellites?
[19:06.320 --> 19:08.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, now the satellites are tracking New Jersey teens.
[19:08.360 --> 19:09.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's come full circle.
[19:10.100 --> 19:12.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, I don't know.
[19:12.120 --> 19:12.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's, um...
[19:12.880 --> 19:15.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: I guess we could sort of see this coming, but the question is, where is it going?
[19:15.960 --> 19:21.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, are we all going to be tracked in some way via our easy passes or metro cards or whatnot?
[19:21.580 --> 19:23.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: We think Singapore is bad now.
[19:23.760 --> 19:25.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, Singapore is tiny, you know?
[19:25.940 --> 19:26.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're big.
[19:26.820 --> 19:26.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[19:26.960 --> 19:31.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: And when we do something, it's, uh, it's usually imitated in the rest of the world.
[19:32.160 --> 19:35.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's, unfortunately, the way it seems to be.
[19:35.940 --> 19:38.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, now, let's see.
[19:38.260 --> 19:42.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: We had some, uh, some interesting developments coming out of Geneva.
[19:44.480 --> 19:55.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Geneva, this is dated November 11th, concerned that the growing use of the internet for racist propaganda, international experts are debating how and whether to combat the spread of computerized hate messages.
[19:56.640 --> 20:04.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Binding global controls on the internet are unlikely, officials said, since the technology is changing faster than rules can be made.
[20:04.440 --> 20:09.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, get this, because of free speech protection in the United States.
[20:09.920 --> 20:12.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Seems like we're gumming things up for the rest of the world.
[20:12.900 --> 20:24.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: The United Nations is sponsoring a week-long meeting of human rights activists, government officials, and internet service providers as part of efforts to ensure compliance with an international treaty banning racial discrimination.
[20:25.040 --> 20:27.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, it ended last Friday with a list of recommendations.
[20:28.280 --> 20:40.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: There are 148 countries who have accepted this convention, and they are under obligation to enact measures to implement it, said Agas Shaki of Pakistan, a member of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.
[20:42.160 --> 20:47.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are we going to say the internet should be exempt from any kind of compliance with the rules of international behavior, he asked?
[20:47.560 --> 20:56.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: It is widely agreed that the internet offers an open platform for racists and white supremacists, although nothing has proved this leads to a related rise in racist incidents.
[20:56.780 --> 21:05.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Much of the problem stems from the United States, where groups such as the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Nations, and Skinheads base their websites.
[21:05.200 --> 21:06.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Under the U.S.
[21:06.960 --> 21:13.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Constitution, which guarantees free speech, these groups are permitted to post their views on the internet, which can be accessed by people in other countries.
[21:13.680 --> 21:24.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Although European countries like Sweden have moved toward making internet service providers responsible for the content they supply, such restrictions are unlikely in the United States, and hence, internationally.
[21:25.120 --> 21:32.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: In our tradition, it is only through the clash of views and vigorous debate, and not through government censorship, that equality is well served.
[21:32.760 --> 21:34.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Philip Reitinger of the U.S.
[21:34.340 --> 21:34.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Department of Justice.
[21:34.900 --> 21:41.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Isn't it ironic that the Department of Justice is defending the freedom of speech, that they're always attacking, you know?
[21:42.020 --> 21:42.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unbelievable.
[21:43.000 --> 21:48.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: That principle, one which accords freedom of expression the highest respect, applies with equal force to the internet.
[21:48.540 --> 22:00.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just want to save that quote and just throw it back at them every time they try to, you know, shut somebody down for something, or accuse them of doing all kinds of evil things via the internet, and because they use the internet, it's so much worse.
[22:00.300 --> 22:01.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's so much more of a threat.
[22:02.320 --> 22:03.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: But while the U.S.
[22:03.460 --> 22:18.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: computer industry is voluntarily working on ways to ensure that computer smut isn't accessible to minors, Eric Lee of the internet service provider Commercial Internet Exchange said, it was not feasible and not desirable for internet providers to act as censors.
[22:18.420 --> 22:30.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's difficult, if not impossible, to suppress content on the web because there are so many ways to evade controls, which does not mean that one should not take steps to limit behavior, but coming up with foolproof controls is virtually impossible.
[22:32.180 --> 22:32.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Makes sense, right?
[22:32.880 --> 22:33.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's always a way around something.
[22:33.960 --> 22:35.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.
[22:36.320 --> 22:36.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[22:37.520 --> 22:43.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, we caused quite a bit of a controversy last week when we gave out the code.
[22:43.400 --> 22:44.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, the foof.
[22:44.160 --> 22:46.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: The foof code that broke the internet again.
[22:47.640 --> 22:52.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: And again, we have to say we're sorry for doing that, and we hope people have recovered by now.
[22:52.280 --> 22:56.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, at least one operating system has come up with a patch.
[22:57.120 --> 23:01.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm told that the Linux folks now have fixed the bug in software.
[23:01.860 --> 23:04.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's a patch for kernel 2.0.31.
[23:04.600 --> 23:10.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, actually, there's a couple of Unix versions that have come out with interim patches.
[23:11.200 --> 23:12.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Linux is one.
[23:17.540 --> 23:30.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Linux folks, as usual, are claiming it's the fix instead of an interim fix, which is typical.
[23:31.080 --> 24:01.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: The BSDI and NetBSD people are explaining that it's an interim fix in the absence of a better solution because certain things which are probably fairly innocuous would be falsely identified by the CPU, certain interrupts and things, which would actually be probably pretty boring if I got into the details.
[24:01.420 --> 24:02.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Probably would be, yeah.
[24:02.000 --> 24:09.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, yeah, there is a patch for Linux, NetBSD, and BSDI as of this moment.
[24:09.500 --> 24:11.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, do you advise people patch it?
[24:11.520 --> 24:14.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or should we wait until people mess it up first?
[24:14.460 --> 24:24.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, what I would do, certainly if I was an internet service provider and, let's say, if I was running NetBSD, if I was running Linux, I'd have much worse problems.
[24:25.780 --> 24:48.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: But as far as NetBSD goes, what you should probably do, since it's so easy to have a disruption of your service, I would try applying the patch and try performing the foof code yourself on purpose to see how well it works for you.
[24:48.740 --> 25:06.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, certainly, if it does work where the foof does not disrupt your system, what you should probably do is keep a close watch on the system for the next couple of weeks just to make sure everything's okay.
[25:07.860 --> 25:15.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then, I'm sure at some point in time within the next month, I would actually be surprised if it wasn't so.
[25:15.720 --> 25:23.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, I'm sure a real fix will be issued and agreed upon as the best solution.
[25:24.500 --> 25:25.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm passing you a letter.
[25:25.900 --> 25:26.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: A letter.
[25:26.580 --> 25:31.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: From a Real Audio listener as far as fixing the bug, which we'll get into in just a moment.
[25:31.760 --> 25:33.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: First, I want to read this letter from Toronto.
[25:33.820 --> 25:36.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: I am a Real Audio listener from Toronto, Canada.
[25:36.580 --> 25:42.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: I heard you guys talking about smart cards and how similar they looked and availability internationally.
[25:42.880 --> 25:51.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, if you check out the latest Wired magazine, November, and you go to page 216 and 217, you will see close-ups of 12 smart cards from around the globe.
[25:51.580 --> 25:52.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's pretty cool.
[25:52.960 --> 25:54.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thought you and Fiber might like it.
[25:55.380 --> 25:55.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hmm.
[25:55.740 --> 25:56.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: P.S.
[25:56.060 --> 25:59.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Your show is wicked, but I'd like to know, who sings that starting song?
[25:59.560 --> 26:01.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: It kind of sounds like Atari Teenage Riot.
[26:01.660 --> 26:06.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you know, it's funny because Atari Teenage Riot does not sing our intro since we've had this intro since 1988.
[26:07.620 --> 26:09.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I don't think they were even born then.
[26:10.380 --> 26:11.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that was...
[26:11.240 --> 26:12.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: The intro...
[26:12.100 --> 26:15.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: We've played Atari Teenage Riot, so maybe that's what the person heard a few shows back.
[26:15.580 --> 26:20.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the intro is done by someone known as Don Letts, who was part of a band called They Go To Your Dynamite.
[26:20.420 --> 26:26.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's the flip side of a single called Just Play Music, which I doubt anybody's going to find.
[26:26.240 --> 26:28.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's not on any CD anywhere, so please stop asking.
[26:28.880 --> 26:29.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: There.
[26:29.980 --> 26:31.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, you have something over there.
[26:31.720 --> 26:39.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, actually, I did forget to mention that SCO Santa Cruz also has a patch for this.
[26:39.820 --> 26:53.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: I did read this memo that somebody sent that describes a microcode patch for the P6, which I'm kind of confused about.
[26:53.720 --> 27:05.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Number one, there was a lot of controversy surrounding whether or not the Pentium's microcode could actually be patched through software while the machine was in a normal operating state.
[27:05.720 --> 27:28.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: This would be considered rather bad if that was possible since viruses or security exploits or what have you might forcibly modify the microcode to bypass any protected mode facilities that are in place in the CPU.
[27:29.220 --> 27:35.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: For example, if you're running Unix, that would allow a regular user to bypass all memory protection.
[27:36.540 --> 27:50.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Something like that was discussed on BugTrack, the security mailing list, as being a particularly useful way of an intruder could exploit the fact that microcode could be modifiable.
[27:51.900 --> 28:05.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: In this particular case, though, what I don't understand is that SCO is issuing a microcode patch to their P6 customers, which is Pentium Pro and Pentium 2.
[28:05.600 --> 28:09.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Pentium Pro and Pentium 2 are not affected by the FOOF exploit.
[28:10.160 --> 28:10.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Really?
[28:10.940 --> 28:17.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: So why they're issuing this microcode patch, I don't know.
[28:17.640 --> 28:18.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are you sure?
[28:18.580 --> 28:18.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Positive.
[28:20.100 --> 28:22.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Only the P5s are affected, not the P6s.
[28:23.860 --> 28:27.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: The only thing I can think of is...
[28:27.020 --> 28:28.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: This thing is a whole lot bigger than we think it is.
[28:28.940 --> 28:37.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, or possibly Intel got to looking into the matter and maybe they found something related in the P6 CPUs.
[28:37.560 --> 28:38.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: But they don't want to tell us about it.
[28:39.080 --> 28:46.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, which I'm sure somebody eventually will find because all they need to do is take this and figure out what the problem was.
[28:46.460 --> 28:51.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: And at the same time, they can also use this and probably figure out how to patch the microcode.
[28:51.360 --> 28:52.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, from what...
[28:52.640 --> 29:00.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everything that I've read and researched, only the P6 allows the microcode to be patched through software.
[29:02.200 --> 29:07.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: From everything that I've been able to find out, none of the P5 machines allow this.
[29:08.920 --> 29:33.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: So whether or not that's actually true, if anybody has any information about that, I know there was somebody last week that called in that claims that they modified microcode on P5s, well, I would have to challenge them to prove it because nothing that I've found would indicate that this is true and no one I've spoken with is telling me that this is possible.
[29:33.780 --> 29:36.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Only on the P6 machines, not the P5s.
[29:36.720 --> 29:41.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, if you're going to get through tonight, you can always email us OTH at 2600.com.
[29:41.480 --> 29:45.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: And since most people don't get through, that's probably the best way to pass us along any information.
[29:45.800 --> 29:48.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, of course, we'll share it with the folks in upcoming shows.
[29:49.020 --> 29:52.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: A California listener sent in this ADSL update.
[29:53.480 --> 30:02.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: This comes from a newsletter that I guess he subscribes to from GameCenter.com.
[30:02.620 --> 30:03.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: The ADSL update.
[30:04.060 --> 30:08.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: When I wrote about modem alternatives a few months ago, I was swamped by questions from you all.
[30:08.240 --> 30:10.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: What would ADSL cost per month?
[30:10.280 --> 30:12.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: What sort of speed is actually possible?
[30:12.200 --> 30:13.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Do I need to rewire?
[30:13.680 --> 30:14.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: And so on.
[30:14.780 --> 30:20.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because there was no ADSL implementation in my area, I had to leave a lot of those questions unanswered until today.
[30:21.440 --> 30:29.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Looks like, as of today, Pacific Bell is finally rolling out ADSL service to selected communities in the San Francisco Bay Area.
[30:29.820 --> 30:39.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: This may not be big news for you out-of-towners, but it will help shed light on how ADSL may be implemented by your phone company sometime down the line.
[30:39.420 --> 30:40.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Here's what I found.
[30:40.800 --> 30:44.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Pac Bell's service is called Fast Track DSL.
[30:44.380 --> 30:46.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who comes up with these lame names?
[30:46.780 --> 30:52.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unfortunately, the targeted customer isn't the average net freak dying for faster bandwidth.
[30:52.400 --> 30:52.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sorry, folks.
[30:53.300 --> 31:02.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Pac Bell is targeting small to mid-sized businesses and subcontractors and telecommuters covered by fat corporate funding.
[31:02.940 --> 31:06.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: You see where this is going with the price that they're going to be asking.
[31:06.880 --> 31:09.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Nothing is going to reflect what we saw in Canada, unfortunately.
[31:10.460 --> 31:12.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: There are also a number of technical prerequisites.
[31:12.680 --> 31:15.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: First, you need to have the right copper wiring.
[31:15.420 --> 31:22.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently, newer buildings and housing developments went ahead and installed fiber-optic lines, so those folks for the time being are out of luck.
[31:23.060 --> 31:27.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Also, you have to be 2.5 or fewer miles away from the Pacific Bell Central Office.
[31:28.060 --> 31:31.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Do you know how far away you are from the nearest Pacific Bell Central Office?
[31:32.680 --> 31:34.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: To the nearest Pacific Bell Central Office?
[31:35.200 --> 31:36.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's what it says.
[31:36.740 --> 31:37.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Probably about 1,000 miles.
[31:37.960 --> 31:38.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, so we're out of luck.
[31:39.200 --> 31:44.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, actually, it's whatever your local central office is, obviously, but how far are you from your central office?
[31:44.900 --> 31:45.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Any idea?
[31:45.500 --> 31:47.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can walk there in about two minutes.
[31:47.400 --> 31:48.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but you walk extremely fast.
[31:48.960 --> 31:49.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, not really.
[31:49.880 --> 31:53.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, well, I think I'm further than 2.5 miles.
[31:53.540 --> 31:53.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[31:54.300 --> 31:56.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, no, if you can get ISDN.
[31:56.420 --> 31:56.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Really?
[31:57.160 --> 31:58.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: You think if I can get ISDN, I can do this?
[31:59.020 --> 32:01.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, ISDN is 18,000 feet.
[32:02.040 --> 32:02.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[32:02.660 --> 32:03.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Which is how many miles?
[32:04.140 --> 32:05.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's 2.5 miles.
[32:06.380 --> 32:08.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, that's more than 2.5 miles.
[32:08.500 --> 32:08.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[32:08.900 --> 32:09.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's over three miles.
[32:10.200 --> 32:11.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: 18,000 feet is more than three miles.
[32:11.860 --> 32:13.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, well, it's 5,280 feet in a mile.
[32:13.760 --> 32:14.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just barely made it.
[32:14.740 --> 32:15.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know that much.
[32:15.420 --> 32:17.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, if I just barely made that, I don't think I'm going to make this.
[32:17.960 --> 32:18.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[32:18.240 --> 32:26.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: But anyway, so you need to be 2.5 or fewer miles away from the Pacific Bell Central Office or wherever you happen to be on a connection that does not use voice amplifiers.
[32:27.280 --> 32:29.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Anything further away, you're also out of luck.
[32:29.380 --> 32:32.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: You must call Pac Bell to verify whether you meet these requirements.
[32:32.500 --> 32:42.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: For people in the Bay Area, the cities covered by this new service include Burlingame, Danville, Los Altos, Mountain View, Palo Alto, Redwood City, San Jose, San Ramon, and Santa Clara.
[32:43.240 --> 32:44.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Everybody else out there, you're out of luck for now.
[32:45.140 --> 32:46.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, on with the speed.
[32:46.360 --> 32:48.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: The service will roll out in two flavors.
[32:49.880 --> 32:55.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: 384 kbps send and receive capability or 384 kbps send and...
[32:55.920 --> 32:56.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-oh.
[32:56.620 --> 32:57.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: I stapled right over.
[32:57.640 --> 33:00.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: A 1.5 mbps receive.
[33:01.080 --> 33:04.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Actual maximum speed, however, will depend on how close you are to a central station.
[33:05.480 --> 33:08.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: My cynical guess is that to hit 1.5 you'll need to be next door.
[33:09.160 --> 33:10.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Does that sound right to you?
[33:10.760 --> 33:12.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, I don't know if that's necessarily true.
[33:12.780 --> 33:14.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean in numbers, not in his theory.
[33:14.200 --> 33:19.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, the fact that it's 384 kilobits and T1 speed coming in.
[33:19.640 --> 33:19.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[33:21.240 --> 33:26.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sounds reasonable whether or not PacBell is going to be able to deliver that kind of bandwidth is another story.
[33:26.920 --> 33:28.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And brace yourself for pricing.
[33:28.320 --> 33:33.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: PacBell estimates a monthly charge of $80 to $259.
[33:33.620 --> 33:40.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: There is an additional $95 monthly charge if you want to connect to the internet instead of to a corporate network.
[33:41.080 --> 33:46.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And PacBell currently has only one ISP concentric handling ADSL subscribers.
[33:48.060 --> 33:52.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Installation is expected to take 10 days thanks to a special ADSL team assigned to the task.
[33:52.840 --> 33:56.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: 65% of all homes in the target area are supposedly ADSL compliant.
[33:57.160 --> 34:04.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, the news from there is not as good as we had hoped certainly because those prices seem a bit much to me.
[34:05.360 --> 34:05.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[34:05.980 --> 34:07.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: But then again, what do you expect?
[34:07.200 --> 34:10.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is, you know, this is America, home of the, you know, Baby Bells.
[34:10.900 --> 34:13.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're going to try to make as much as possible off this kind of thing.
[34:14.480 --> 34:22.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm still waiting for the day that I can call up Bell Atlantic North and say, I want my ADSL.
[34:22.960 --> 34:24.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you can call them now.
[34:24.180 --> 34:25.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: They just laugh at you, maybe.
[34:25.520 --> 34:26.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, yeah, that's the problem.
[34:27.100 --> 34:29.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've heard, I've heard rumors going around.
[34:30.000 --> 34:41.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: You've probably heard the same rumors that there's some kind of a tariff being passed around in the Public Service Commission to wipe out data over voice.
[34:42.320 --> 34:42.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Have you seen that?
[34:43.100 --> 34:49.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but the only problem, though, is that this imaginary tariff has been floating around for the past, I don't know how many years.
[34:49.860 --> 34:51.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, I've heard that might be landing now.
[34:51.600 --> 34:54.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it's hard to, well, all the other times it was totally made up.
[34:54.820 --> 34:55.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[34:55.360 --> 34:58.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, I don't, I mean, it's hard to believe these things.
[34:58.900 --> 35:02.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, well, it's especially hard to believe it when the actual tariff is not quoted.
[35:03.380 --> 35:06.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I find that to be true of just about anything you see floating around on the internet.
[35:06.560 --> 35:12.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: If something actually isn't quoted and you can't go there and look it up yourself, odds are something isn't quite right.
[35:12.700 --> 35:18.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, while we're not saying that it's false, we're saying that right now we don't know that it's true because we haven't seen anything.
[35:18.800 --> 35:21.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: But if something like that were to happen, first of all, how would they do it technically?
[35:22.020 --> 35:22.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Could they actually...
[35:22.880 --> 35:28.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: The only thing I could really do is just charge a timed rate for all ISD and voice calls.
[35:28.580 --> 35:30.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that would involve changing the tariff on how phone calls are made.
[35:31.060 --> 35:33.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, all ISD and voice calls would have to be timed.
[35:33.500 --> 35:33.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[35:34.200 --> 35:37.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there are many places where calls are not timed in the New York area.
[35:37.340 --> 35:39.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: The way things happen in New Jersey is different.
[35:39.340 --> 35:40.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's a totally different country over there.
[35:40.880 --> 35:42.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: They live by different rules.
[35:42.500 --> 35:47.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they've been brought up that way so they don't complain when, you know, when Bell Atlantic pulls these things on them.
[35:47.080 --> 35:53.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: But here in New York, you know, I think Bell Atlantic will come to realize that we expect different types of rate structures.
[35:53.740 --> 35:54.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: That we deserve special treatment.
[35:55.140 --> 35:58.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, not special treatment, just the treatment we've always expected.
[35:58.260 --> 35:58.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sure.
[35:58.820 --> 36:04.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, we have a whole lot of phone callers coming in right now so we want to get to those right away, I guess.
[36:04.240 --> 36:06.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-279-3400.
[36:06.480 --> 36:12.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Tell us where you're calling from and please try to keep your comments fairly brief so the next person can get on.
[36:12.940 --> 36:14.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: We can get as many people as possible.
[36:14.400 --> 36:15.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, first caller.
[36:15.800 --> 36:16.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[36:17.040 --> 36:17.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[36:17.780 --> 36:19.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is your weekly call from U.S.
[36:19.120 --> 36:19.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: West territory.
[36:19.920 --> 36:20.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: U.S.
[36:20.540 --> 36:20.540]  West.
[36:20.600 --> 36:21.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what state are you in?
[36:22.320 --> 36:22.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nebraska.
[36:22.940 --> 36:23.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Nebraska.
[36:23.360 --> 36:25.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you're the person that doesn't actually listen to us.
[36:25.840 --> 36:27.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, because I have a slow modem.
[36:27.300 --> 36:29.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Actually, I got a faster modem but I don't have the cable for it, so...
[36:29.980 --> 36:31.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: So you're still not listening to us.
[36:31.320 --> 36:33.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yet you manage to get through every week.
[36:33.600 --> 36:34.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, ironic, isn't it?
[36:34.480 --> 36:35.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: It is kind of ironic.
[36:35.660 --> 36:35.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I mean...
[36:35.920 --> 36:36.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sometimes we're not here, you know.
[36:37.080 --> 36:39.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sometimes they preempt us and put something else in our place.
[36:39.180 --> 36:40.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Boy, you're going to feel foolish.
[36:40.520 --> 36:41.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, that's why I check the website every week.
[36:42.940 --> 36:43.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, let's see here.
[36:44.760 --> 36:47.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you can check the website, why can't you listen to the show?
[36:48.840 --> 36:50.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because I don't get the 14.4 stream.
[36:51.180 --> 36:52.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: And because I check the website in the morning.
[36:53.220 --> 36:53.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[36:53.720 --> 36:54.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, so what's on your mind?
[36:54.920 --> 36:55.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, this week...
[36:55.960 --> 36:57.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, so I don't have to call in two weeks.
[36:57.900 --> 37:02.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: The next Omaha meeting, or the 2600 meeting, is 6.30 p.m.
[37:02.180 --> 37:04.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: December 5th at the Barnes & Noble by Opsview.
[37:04.220 --> 37:06.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, this is the Omaha meeting, which is one of the newer ones.
[37:07.040 --> 37:09.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, and one of the least-attended ones, so...
[37:09.300 --> 37:12.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's because nobody knows about it yet, but now the word's getting out.
[37:12.480 --> 37:16.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I got two people who actually emailed me saying they heard it on the air, so...
[37:16.620 --> 37:17.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's see here.
[37:17.900 --> 37:18.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: U.S.
[37:18.400 --> 37:21.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: West is in their very, very preliminary testing of cell modems.
[37:21.540 --> 37:22.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: In fact, it's not even in a box yet.
[37:22.960 --> 37:23.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's just a bunch of wires and boards.
[37:26.780 --> 37:30.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: And inquiring minds here want to know, a company asked me this.
[37:30.580 --> 37:35.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: They are moving out of the area of cable modems that's being serviced, and they want to know what a cheap alternative is.
[37:36.520 --> 37:38.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: A cheap alternative to cable modems?
[37:38.460 --> 37:38.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[37:39.140 --> 37:40.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: They need a cheap alternative.
[37:40.400 --> 37:40.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why?
[37:41.220 --> 37:41.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: To a cable...
[37:41.920 --> 37:42.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Why?
[37:42.400 --> 37:45.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because they're moving out of the area where they can't get cable modems where they're going.
[37:45.380 --> 37:45.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[37:45.600 --> 37:48.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Probably direct PC, right?
[37:49.280 --> 37:50.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you think that's a good alternative?
[37:50.940 --> 37:55.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I've heard that the speed is comparable, and the rates, I think, are even cheaper.
[37:56.000 --> 37:57.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: So will that work for business?
[37:57.920 --> 37:59.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't see why it wouldn't.
[37:59.420 --> 38:09.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I haven't used either one, so I'm not really qualified to say one is better than the other, but I do know they both provide internet service, and you can get that virtually any place if you have the view of the satellite.
[38:10.560 --> 38:14.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're not dependent on wiring, so there's that.
[38:14.120 --> 38:16.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are they moving to a city, or is it out in the middle of nowhere?
[38:16.820 --> 38:21.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, Omaha's in the middle of nowhere to begin with, but I have no idea where they're moving.
[38:21.280 --> 38:23.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think they're already out on the sort of outskirts of Omaha now.
[38:24.780 --> 38:29.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: The problem with direct PC is that their outgoing connection speed is the speed of their modem.
[38:31.080 --> 38:31.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh.
[38:31.880 --> 38:32.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's...
[38:32.520 --> 38:34.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, if they have Kim ones, I would think they'd have network cards for them.
[38:36.780 --> 38:45.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I mean, that's the only thing I can think of at the moment, short of getting, you know, wiring wherever you are for, you know, ISDN, T1 speeds, or what have you.
[38:48.680 --> 38:49.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Does that answer your question?
[38:50.060 --> 38:50.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think so.
[38:51.080 --> 38:51.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[38:51.500 --> 38:52.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: One more thing on the list.
[38:52.920 --> 38:55.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm writing my English term paper on 1984.
[38:55.940 --> 39:02.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: And for the miscellaneous section, we need sort of information on 1984 and the current market and media, etc.
[39:03.000 --> 39:06.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: So how are you similar to the character of Emanuel Goldstein in the book of 1984?
[39:07.460 --> 39:11.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're still in dispute about that, and I can't believe they actually used my name in that book without asking me.
[39:13.400 --> 39:16.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I really can't speak any more about that case.
[39:16.320 --> 39:16.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's still pending.
[39:16.940 --> 39:18.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: But thanks very much for calling.
[39:18.980 --> 39:20.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: First the film and now the book, you know?
[39:20.940 --> 39:21.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unbelievable.
[39:21.360 --> 39:21.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's unbelievable, yes.
[39:22.300 --> 39:22.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[39:22.980 --> 39:23.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on the air.
[39:23.800 --> 39:24.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, Emanuel.
[39:24.740 --> 39:25.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: How are you doing?
[39:25.360 --> 39:26.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let me just find out which phone you're on.
[39:27.120 --> 39:28.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're not on that one.
[39:28.700 --> 39:29.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're on...
[39:29.300 --> 39:30.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: How many lines did you call us on?
[39:31.100 --> 39:31.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Wait a minute.
[39:31.560 --> 39:32.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, here we are.
[39:32.480 --> 39:34.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm calling from two different lines here.
[39:34.960 --> 39:35.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's figure this out.
[39:36.000 --> 39:37.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, I haven't talked to you in a while.
[39:37.640 --> 39:39.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sixteen lights and the switchboard went out.
[39:40.500 --> 39:43.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, I just wanted to mention, I heard about the internet thing.
[39:43.340 --> 39:44.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just wanted to mention that...
[39:44.800 --> 39:46.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: You mean you heard about the internet?
[39:46.660 --> 39:47.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: The internet thing?
[39:47.840 --> 39:48.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: The internet thing.
[39:48.440 --> 39:49.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: This internet that everybody's talking about.
[39:49.820 --> 39:50.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: You heard about it, finally.
[39:51.340 --> 39:52.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who told him?
[39:52.760 --> 39:53.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who let him in on it?
[39:54.040 --> 40:03.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: The thing about, you know, being the police tapping the internet, what I do is I use a fake name on the internet service to provide it with a fake phone number and a fake address.
[40:03.660 --> 40:04.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Giving out his methods here.
[40:05.360 --> 40:05.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Really?
[40:05.760 --> 40:07.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's what the people in Holland should do.
[40:07.540 --> 40:07.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[40:07.880 --> 40:08.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Fake address.
[40:09.140 --> 40:09.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Fake name.
[40:09.280 --> 40:10.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: About the police tapping the internet.
[40:10.580 --> 40:13.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: They don't have their ID when you sign up for internet service.
[40:13.940 --> 40:15.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, maybe now they will, thanks to you.
[40:16.520 --> 40:20.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, also I'd like to mention, being that I haven't been on here in a while...
[40:20.120 --> 40:22.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: How do they bill you if you give them fake information?
[40:23.120 --> 40:24.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: You pay them by cash.
[40:24.580 --> 40:26.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: You mean you come in there every month?
[40:26.580 --> 40:27.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Every year.
[40:27.200 --> 40:29.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: The internet providers have things where you pay every year.
[40:29.640 --> 40:31.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: So once a year you show up and pay cash.
[40:32.000 --> 40:32.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[40:32.380 --> 40:36.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Do you wear a fake face when you do that or do you show up displaying who you are to everybody?
[40:36.600 --> 40:37.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I...
[40:37.380 --> 40:38.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Have you ever noticed the cameras?
[40:39.360 --> 40:40.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, you don't care about the cameras, do you?
[40:40.860 --> 40:41.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, no, no, wait a minute.
[40:41.960 --> 40:44.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: How many internet service besides have cameras, okay?
[40:44.780 --> 40:45.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean...
[40:45.920 --> 40:47.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Anyway, speaking of things...
[40:47.740 --> 40:49.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think you need to look around a little bit more.
[40:50.140 --> 40:51.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: You need to be just a little more paranoid.
[40:52.380 --> 40:53.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, well, yeah, that's true.
[40:54.260 --> 40:57.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, I'd just like to mention, I was in New Jersey and I was trying to use a co-cut.
[40:57.300 --> 40:58.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was trying to deliver something somewhere.
[40:58.720 --> 40:59.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was trying to find the address.
[40:59.920 --> 41:00.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: A lot of trying there.
[41:01.220 --> 41:02.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: How much succeeding was there?
[41:02.660 --> 41:09.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: But no, you know, I couldn't succeed because I went to this co-cut to call information, New Jersey information, to find out the address of this particular place.
[41:09.740 --> 41:10.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: And something horrible happened.
[41:10.980 --> 41:11.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: They wanted money.
[41:12.020 --> 41:12.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, boy.
[41:12.760 --> 41:16.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Also, when I called the Bell Atlantic operators and said, hey, can you connect to me with information?
[41:16.380 --> 41:17.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: They said, sorry, there's a charge.
[41:17.980 --> 41:18.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: I said, well, no, you're...
[41:18.880 --> 41:19.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a co-cut.
[41:19.800 --> 41:20.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, no.
[41:20.400 --> 41:25.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is Bell Atlantic operator telling me that there's a charge on a co-cut in New Jersey.
[41:25.620 --> 41:27.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, but you see, co-cuts play by different rules.
[41:28.140 --> 41:34.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but I know, but the co-cut asked me for money, but the Bell Atlantic, the regular Bell Atlantic operator was saying that there was a charge.
[41:35.260 --> 41:39.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the thing is, is that they said, well, on a Bell Atlantic payphone, there will be no charge.
[41:39.620 --> 41:42.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, what, do I have to drive a mile to a Bell Atlantic payphone?
[41:42.680 --> 41:48.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Actually, if you drive a few more miles to Pennsylvania, you'll find that there is indeed a charge for information from a Bell Atlantic payphone.
[41:48.880 --> 41:49.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: And speaking of Pennsylvania...
[41:49.700 --> 41:50.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: Go figure.
[41:51.500 --> 41:57.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was on the Pennsylvania turnpike And, you know, going on that turnpike, you've got to pay a toll if you get off.
[41:57.740 --> 42:00.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's ATMs at the rest stops, and guess what?
[42:00.500 --> 42:03.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: They charge you a dollar to take out $10 or $20.
[42:04.080 --> 42:05.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's an outrage, isn't it?
[42:05.160 --> 42:05.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Unbelievable.
[42:05.800 --> 42:06.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's unbelievable.
[42:06.620 --> 42:09.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: And also, why should you be charged to these things?
[42:09.620 --> 42:11.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, you know, there's no other ATM.
[42:11.800 --> 42:17.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: They take advantage of exploring, you know, the people who aren't from the area, so that they don't know where the other ATMs are and stuff.
[42:17.500 --> 42:23.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, what are you doing going down into Pennsylvania, wherever you are, without any money?
[42:23.560 --> 42:24.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your call will be terminated.
[42:24.600 --> 42:24.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[42:25.720 --> 42:26.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, Redbox.
[42:26.860 --> 42:27.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a Redbox, okay.
[42:28.880 --> 42:30.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not really a Redbox.
[42:30.300 --> 42:30.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, it's not.
[42:31.440 --> 42:32.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're joshing us here.
[42:32.740 --> 42:33.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, of course not.
[42:33.520 --> 42:34.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: She's not satisfied.
[42:35.600 --> 42:36.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: I deposited a quarter.
[42:37.080 --> 42:38.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your call will be terminated.
[42:38.320 --> 42:39.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: And she's still not satisfied.
[42:40.000 --> 42:42.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I deposited four-fifths of a quarter, according to her.
[42:42.900 --> 42:44.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why don't you throw in a nickel, if you can?
[42:45.640 --> 42:47.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I just paid 75 cents for this call.
[42:47.760 --> 42:48.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: You just threw away money.
[42:48.920 --> 42:49.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I know.
[42:49.560 --> 42:54.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just paid 75 cents for this call, which is just like going to Pennsylvania and paying a dollar.
[42:54.320 --> 42:55.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: I feel like I paid a lot more for this call.
[42:56.480 --> 42:58.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Which is just like going to Pennsylvania and paying a dollar.
[42:58.660 --> 43:02.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's just like I went to a motel one time, but they were closed.
[43:02.620 --> 43:02.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: I had to pay a toll.
[43:02.940 --> 43:04.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't need to know these things.
[43:04.220 --> 43:04.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, no.
[43:04.580 --> 43:08.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the point is that I had to pay a toll to get back on the turnpike.
[43:09.100 --> 43:09.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[43:10.180 --> 43:13.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you know, there's tolls everywhere in life.
[43:13.880 --> 43:15.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: I know, but I don't pay tolls.
[43:15.460 --> 43:17.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, you know, I try and avoid tolls when I can, you know.
[43:18.200 --> 43:19.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just economically, you know.
[43:21.360 --> 43:22.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Anything else?
[43:23.240 --> 43:24.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's see.
[43:24.100 --> 43:24.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: What else?
[43:24.700 --> 43:26.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: No interesting phone experiences.
[43:26.720 --> 43:33.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe I should tell everybody that it still works where the AT&T operator will connect you with call completion from a co-card.
[43:34.300 --> 43:34.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[43:34.980 --> 43:43.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: In other words, you know how when you dial one of our... a long-term serial code in 555-1212, they'll say you can be connected with this number?
[43:43.880 --> 43:44.200]  Uh-huh.
[43:44.500 --> 43:47.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Being that... that doesn't work from payphones, regular Bell Atlantic payphones.
[43:48.860 --> 43:50.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: They will just connect you with directory.
[43:50.720 --> 44:05.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: But if you go to a co-card, even though the phone's identified as a co-card by AT&T and the operator and stuff, it would still, when you put in the 50 cents or whatever they ask you for, dial one, another area code 555-1212, assuming that it's connected to AT&T in the first place.
[44:05.820 --> 44:07.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: You could... some co-card to add to dark area.
[44:08.020 --> 44:09.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hold on, Fiber's pen ran out of ink.
[44:12.400 --> 44:13.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, go ahead.
[44:13.540 --> 44:15.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, it'll say...
[44:15.060 --> 44:16.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Write it in blood if you have it.
[44:16.020 --> 44:17.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, God, I don't have more change.
[44:17.220 --> 44:18.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't have any more change.
[44:18.540 --> 44:19.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Out of change.
[44:19.600 --> 44:20.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Out of change.
[44:20.320 --> 44:21.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Out of those magical tones.
[44:21.680 --> 44:22.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's right.
[44:22.560 --> 44:23.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: He really doesn't have a red box.
[44:24.100 --> 44:26.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: To briefly sum it up, it will work from a co-card.
[44:27.140 --> 44:31.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I can... and they'll think that you're still calling directory, and you'll be able to place long-distance calls.
[44:32.360 --> 44:33.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: That is something.
[44:33.680 --> 44:34.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: That is something.
[44:34.700 --> 44:36.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, listen, thanks very much for sharing this with us.
[44:36.880 --> 44:38.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: We don't want to get in trouble with the operator.
[44:39.080 --> 44:41.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: And whoever else might be watching you right now.
[44:41.200 --> 44:42.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there are people watching you.
[44:42.240 --> 44:44.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Don't have any fear about that.
[44:44.200 --> 44:44.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's happening.
[44:45.800 --> 44:46.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[44:47.260 --> 44:48.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: That was a local call, by the way.
[44:49.040 --> 44:50.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: You net people, please.
[44:50.160 --> 44:50.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Give us a call.
[44:50.720 --> 44:52.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: 212-279-3400.
[44:52.820 --> 44:53.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[44:53.260 --> 44:53.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on the air.
[44:54.580 --> 44:55.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hey, I made it through.
[44:56.180 --> 44:56.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Back to back.
[44:57.060 --> 44:57.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Isn't it something?
[44:57.720 --> 45:00.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: I guess I'm going to look good compared to your previous calls.
[45:00.500 --> 45:01.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: I can't talk too long.
[45:01.820 --> 45:03.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: I have a gentleman caller over here.
[45:03.560 --> 45:03.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Don't worry.
[45:04.240 --> 45:05.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: He's not CIA or anything.
[45:05.680 --> 45:05.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[45:05.800 --> 45:05.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[45:06.040 --> 45:06.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you have a gentleman caller.
[45:07.060 --> 45:07.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: You've got to tend to it.
[45:07.760 --> 45:07.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[45:08.120 --> 45:17.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Number one, I just want to say hello to someone who's a fan of the show who divulged it the other night, the Grand Master himself of WBAI, Mr. Barfass.
[45:17.560 --> 45:29.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I also want to say I'm sort of disappointed in an ambivalent, poetic sense that Western civilization, as we know it, did not end as a result of your divulging the secret code last week.
[45:29.740 --> 45:34.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I guess you guys sort of built it up, you know, to whether it was going to be mass hysteria.
[45:34.600 --> 45:38.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I don't think we have enough listeners because if we had more listeners, it would have been the end of Western civilization.
[45:39.040 --> 45:47.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is it sort of the cliche that you have more governmental agents engaged in entrapment listening to you than you do ordinary schnooks like me?
[45:47.200 --> 45:47.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Could be.
[45:47.700 --> 45:52.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Could be that there are more government people, you know, taking an interest in this thing and the regular people just don't care.
[45:53.000 --> 45:56.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: My friend over here told me an interesting anecdote.
[45:56.500 --> 45:57.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: He's sorry.
[45:57.200 --> 45:58.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: He has his own underground radio show.
[45:58.680 --> 45:59.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: I briefly stated.
[45:59.720 --> 46:01.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's sort of related to the 1984 guy.
[46:02.440 --> 46:02.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[46:03.260 --> 46:08.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: He was on the subway singing this to a girl by 86th Street waiting for Godot.
[46:08.400 --> 46:12.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, like, he's into talking to strange girls, but I'm way too shy to do that.
[46:12.260 --> 46:13.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: So he said to her, I have something to tell you.
[46:13.880 --> 46:16.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: She goes, I normally don't talk to people on the subway, but what?
[46:17.000 --> 46:19.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: And he said, you know, he never comes.
[46:19.460 --> 46:20.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: He's dead.
[46:20.120 --> 46:24.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then the girl, who looked like an educated collar girl, says to him, why did you have to spoil it for me?
[46:24.540 --> 46:26.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: And she, like, goes to another car on the subway.
[46:27.060 --> 46:28.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Anyway, fiber optic.
[46:28.260 --> 46:28.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: Last thing.
[46:28.880 --> 46:32.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: I know, hey, sometimes you make fun of Rebel, which is cool, and you make fun of me.
[46:32.780 --> 46:37.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: But in my case, I'm emotionally disabled, so it's not really cool to make fun of someone without all his marbles.
[46:38.160 --> 46:39.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: But you can make fun of Rebel, okay?
[46:39.920 --> 46:42.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, how do we know you're not just somebody saying you're emotionally disabled?
[46:42.300 --> 46:43.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, yeah, my evil twin.
[46:44.000 --> 46:45.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, I'm like a mere genius.
[46:45.400 --> 46:53.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, I sound like this suave, sophisticated Gary Null type, but, you know, my friend said, that's my friend, so I'm really a moron.
[46:53.580 --> 46:57.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: I have to feed him now like a cheese and mayonnaise sandwich, so I'll take care of you guys.
[46:57.160 --> 47:02.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, you've got a gentleman caller to deal with right now that I'm sure they'll be reading about in the paper at some point.
[47:03.040 --> 47:05.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, 212-279-3400.
[47:05.820 --> 47:07.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[47:07.300 --> 47:07.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi.
[47:07.780 --> 47:08.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: How are you doing?
[47:08.620 --> 47:10.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm calling from the New York area.
[47:10.580 --> 47:16.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm listening to your show on the radio, and I'm interested in how my friend in Florida can listen to your show live on his computer.
[47:17.040 --> 47:37.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, if he connects to our website at www.2600.com, you'll see a pointer there for off the hook and there should be a button to connect to real audio and should be able to just, if he has a sound card, assuming he has, you know, something on his computer that enables him to listen to things and he has a connection to the net of 28.8 or better,
[47:37.560 --> 47:39.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: actually, I think 14.4 will work as well.
[47:39.440 --> 47:39.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, sure.
[47:39.840 --> 47:42.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, that's really all he should have to do.
[47:42.320 --> 47:42.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, good.
[47:42.940 --> 47:43.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[47:43.340 --> 47:43.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[47:43.760 --> 47:43.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bye.
[47:44.300 --> 47:46.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, he has about 14 minutes to do it this week.
[47:47.000 --> 47:47.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[47:47.540 --> 47:47.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on the air.
[47:49.760 --> 47:50.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[47:50.240 --> 47:51.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: That person waited about 10 minutes to hang up.
[47:52.400 --> 47:52.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[47:52.840 --> 47:53.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on the air.
[47:53.860 --> 47:55.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: That person was a little faster.
[47:55.480 --> 47:55.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[47:55.880 --> 47:56.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're on the air.
[47:58.200 --> 47:59.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's, that's me.
[47:59.160 --> 48:01.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And listen to how long we delayed.
[48:02.100 --> 48:04.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: This person is eventually going to figure out that they're, in fact, on the air.
[48:05.240 --> 48:05.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, yeah.
[48:05.720 --> 48:06.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ah, okay.
[48:06.680 --> 48:06.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi.
[48:07.120 --> 48:10.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to, okay, I just wanted to ask, I'm calling from Toronto, Canada.
[48:10.300 --> 48:10.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Toronto.
[48:10.780 --> 48:12.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I could almost tell from your accent that you were from Canada.
[48:13.220 --> 48:13.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, eh?
[48:14.060 --> 48:14.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[48:14.560 --> 48:16.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I don't mean, I don't mean it to be a put down.
[48:16.340 --> 48:17.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: I like the Canadian accents.
[48:17.680 --> 48:18.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks a lot.
[48:18.080 --> 48:18.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're pretty cool.
[48:18.660 --> 48:23.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, I wanted to ask first off about the Hacker's CD2 and what the deal with that is.
[48:23.720 --> 48:25.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Could you turn down your sound blaster or whatever that is?
[48:26.400 --> 48:26.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[48:27.060 --> 48:31.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a little bit, that hum, that hum isn't part of our broadcast, is it?
[48:31.820 --> 48:32.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, no.
[48:32.800 --> 48:33.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that's your phone connection.
[48:33.940 --> 48:34.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[48:34.380 --> 48:37.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to ask about the Hacker's Soundtrack 2 and what the deal with that.
[48:37.900 --> 48:38.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[48:38.340 --> 48:43.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's been a widespread panic in the net community that there is a sequel to the film Hackers.
[48:43.280 --> 48:45.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let me state right now that that is not, in fact, so.
[48:46.080 --> 48:46.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[48:46.300 --> 48:48.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: There is simply a second Hacker's Soundtrack.
[48:48.660 --> 48:49.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's on that.
[48:49.620 --> 48:52.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: It should be called Hacker's Soundtrack 2, not Hacker's 2 Soundtrack.
[48:52.960 --> 48:56.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's on our, it's on our Much Music, uh, the equivalent to MTV.
[48:56.960 --> 48:57.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[48:57.340 --> 48:58.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, we get Much Music down here too.
[48:58.820 --> 48:59.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[48:59.320 --> 49:00.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have they been playing it?
[49:00.600 --> 49:02.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, yeah, they actually, they had a lot of commercials for it.
[49:03.040 --> 49:03.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[49:03.960 --> 49:06.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, and I wanted to also bring up something.
[49:06.300 --> 49:09.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of people running around, I just wanted to get, ask you what you thought about this.
[49:09.940 --> 49:14.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of people running around using similar handles and actually using other people's handles.
[49:14.960 --> 49:16.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's a, it's a, it's a catastrophe.
[49:16.060 --> 49:16.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a big problem.
[49:16.940 --> 49:17.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[49:17.140 --> 49:21.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I've had to, I've had to actually change to something that, words that people didn't even know existed.
[49:21.740 --> 49:26.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: The solution is to register your handle with the government and that way you have an authoritative source.
[49:26.780 --> 49:27.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's, that's my idea.
[49:28.300 --> 49:36.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I wanted to know also about the, the, if there's a, a hacker, a hacking scene in Toronto because I know there was a meeting at the .com cafe.
[49:36.780 --> 49:38.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, now, you see, here's the thing.
[49:38.360 --> 49:56.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Toronto has, has a very big scene and in fact there were meetings at the .com cafe until the .com cafe closed, hopefully not because I'm told, and this, this will be published in the newest issue and that eventually comes out that they're being held across the street from the Much Music building I think in a place called Harvey's.
[49:58.060 --> 49:58.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[49:58.740 --> 50:00.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that, is there a place called Harvey's up there?
[50:00.300 --> 50:00.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[50:00.700 --> 50:01.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, that's where they are right now.
[50:01.780 --> 50:02.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's an interim place.
[50:02.880 --> 50:03.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[50:03.340 --> 50:06.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, once, once they find a better place we'll, we'll let you know what that is as well.
[50:06.840 --> 50:07.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they're being held there?
[50:07.960 --> 50:07.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[50:07.980 --> 50:11.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And one last question quick about the PCS phones.
[50:11.240 --> 50:11.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[50:11.720 --> 50:15.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, like, are they, they're similar to the GSM phones?
[50:15.500 --> 50:18.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, well, they are GSM phones but they're also CDMA.
[50:18.800 --> 50:19.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[50:19.280 --> 50:24.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, PCS is basically, it's, you know, it's a wide range of different services.
[50:24.380 --> 50:28.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, there's like eight, there's like eight companies trying to sell PCS phones now.
[50:28.660 --> 50:31.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are they differentiating between GSM providers and CDMA?
[50:31.460 --> 50:31.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know.
[50:32.480 --> 50:45.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Just, they're just sticking with the, there's, there's, actually, Bell has these, these really obnoxious commercials with this little girl who starts to, start talking about why Bell is better and how it's, how their phones are like a racing car coming with,
[50:46.220 --> 50:51.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: that come with great features and how the other providers don't give you the road you need to drive on.
[50:52.400 --> 50:52.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Things like that.
[50:53.220 --> 50:54.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's just, it's starting to get on my nerves.
[50:55.040 --> 50:55.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[50:55.500 --> 50:57.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, what services does Bell offer up there?
[50:58.900 --> 51:01.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bell offers, I think they have voicemail.
[51:02.800 --> 51:03.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is PCS?
[51:03.940 --> 51:04.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[51:04.780 --> 51:04.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[51:05.440 --> 51:10.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: You just get voicemail, just regular phone service.
[51:10.380 --> 51:12.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: They don't actually give too much.
[51:12.460 --> 51:13.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was looking at them.
[51:13.500 --> 51:19.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think two weeks ago we read something about various PCS services up there in Canada.
[51:19.440 --> 51:20.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: So you might want to compare those.
[51:21.160 --> 51:21.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[51:21.780 --> 51:26.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's actually, now in the newspaper, there's a section called Mobile Communication Every Thursday.
[51:26.780 --> 51:27.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[51:27.060 --> 51:32.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that, uh, that talks about all the different, uh, choices and stuff for pages and...
[51:32.220 --> 51:32.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[51:32.940 --> 51:35.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think Bell Canada actually offers GSM.
[51:35.860 --> 51:37.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: It might be CDMA or...
[51:37.140 --> 51:37.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not GSM.
[51:38.060 --> 51:42.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but I think the big, uh, GSM provider in your area is Microcell.
[51:42.740 --> 51:42.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[51:44.080 --> 51:45.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, thanks a lot.
[51:45.760 --> 51:46.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, good luck.
[51:46.380 --> 51:46.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, bye.
[51:47.080 --> 51:47.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bye.
[51:48.120 --> 51:49.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: That was a call from Toronto.
[51:49.380 --> 51:51.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: You have something for us from, uh, Queens, I think.
[51:51.860 --> 51:52.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: From Queens, yeah.
[51:53.220 --> 51:53.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um...
[51:53.560 --> 51:53.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you got?
[51:53.780 --> 52:03.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, actually, it says, uh, somebody saying that originally they could make a free phone call to their precinct, their police precinct, from a payphone.
[52:03.200 --> 52:03.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not 911.
[52:04.300 --> 52:05.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not 911.
[52:05.340 --> 52:07.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're claiming that it's their local precinct phone number.
[52:07.940 --> 52:09.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: They could just call the seven-digit number.
[52:09.620 --> 52:10.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what they're saying.
[52:10.460 --> 52:11.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And not incur a charge.
[52:11.820 --> 52:12.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: On, on a payphone.
[52:12.900 --> 52:14.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now they're saying that they can't.
[52:14.460 --> 52:14.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hmm.
[52:15.560 --> 52:16.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many people knew they could?
[52:17.360 --> 52:18.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: I didn't know that you could.
[52:18.540 --> 52:19.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: I didn't know that either.
[52:19.140 --> 52:19.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm going right downstairs.
[52:19.960 --> 52:20.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm going to try this.
[52:20.680 --> 52:25.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not that I've ever needed to call the precinct, but, uh, If it's not an emergency, why shouldn't you put a quarter in?
[52:26.160 --> 52:26.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's true.
[52:26.960 --> 52:28.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: For that matter, if it's not an emergency, why call from a payphone?
[52:29.440 --> 52:34.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, for that matter, can you call the number for the fire department that no one knows for free on a payphone?
[52:35.080 --> 52:37.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why is there a number for the fire department that nobody knows?
[52:37.420 --> 52:42.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know that the fire department for the last gazillion years has owned 999.
[52:42.680 --> 52:45.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can dial anything in 999 and directly reach the fire department.
[52:45.660 --> 52:49.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if there was an emergency, if there was a fire, you wouldn't have to call 911 and wait on hold.
[52:49.820 --> 52:51.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, that's like a little publicized fact.
[52:51.300 --> 52:54.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: But did you always get connected to your local fire department or just anyone at random in the city?
[52:55.200 --> 52:56.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think you got connected to your local one.
[52:57.060 --> 52:57.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Really?
[52:57.320 --> 52:58.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: So what is it that's telling you?
[52:58.600 --> 53:00.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is there something in your central office that says 999?
[53:01.040 --> 53:01.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: How to route 999?
[53:02.080 --> 53:02.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[53:02.380 --> 53:03.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: There would have to be.
[53:03.760 --> 53:04.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Interesting.
[53:04.620 --> 53:08.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, if anyone out there is into the switches, please let us know what they're doing in there with 999.
[53:08.760 --> 53:09.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because that's...
[53:09.720 --> 53:13.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: I remember 999 used to be a parallel to 976.
[53:13.920 --> 53:15.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if anybody else remembers this.
[53:15.220 --> 53:16.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Back in the 70s, I think.
[53:16.480 --> 53:18.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: I remember in the 70s there was 936.
[53:18.860 --> 53:19.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was also 936.
[53:19.860 --> 53:20.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: 976.
[53:20.580 --> 53:20.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: 936.
[53:21.200 --> 53:21.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that was...
[53:22.320 --> 53:23.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: 976 came after that.
[53:23.600 --> 53:25.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: You remember what the first one was?
[53:25.260 --> 53:26.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was 936-3636.
[53:27.140 --> 53:27.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was Santa Claus.
[53:27.920 --> 53:28.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: That was Santa Claus, huh?
[53:28.920 --> 53:29.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[53:29.520 --> 53:30.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, wasn't the time also in there?
[53:31.100 --> 53:32.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: The time was 976.
[53:33.160 --> 53:35.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: The time was something else before it was 976.
[53:35.560 --> 53:35.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Really?
[53:35.840 --> 53:35.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[53:36.060 --> 53:37.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sure somebody out there remembers this.
[53:37.460 --> 53:38.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just remember it was something different.
[53:38.800 --> 53:39.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was a different number.
[53:39.680 --> 53:39.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Huh.
[53:39.840 --> 53:41.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think it was 936 or 976.
[53:41.760 --> 53:42.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it was something else.
[53:42.780 --> 53:43.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Really?
[53:43.180 --> 53:43.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[53:43.540 --> 53:44.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: But get to the Queens thing.
[53:44.860 --> 53:45.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was it.
[53:45.520 --> 53:46.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the whole thing?
[53:46.100 --> 53:49.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: He says that he can no longer call his police precinct for free.
[53:49.160 --> 53:50.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: on the new payphones.
[53:50.800 --> 53:53.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I believe him, because those new payphones are pretty crummy.
[53:54.380 --> 53:55.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: I wonder how the police feel about that.
[53:56.300 --> 53:57.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can no longer call them.
[53:58.680 --> 53:59.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, interesting.
[54:00.060 --> 54:02.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
[54:03.920 --> 54:04.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's pick this one over here.
[54:05.060 --> 54:05.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[54:07.320 --> 54:07.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Speak up, please.
[54:08.060 --> 54:08.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, go ahead.
[54:10.440 --> 54:13.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, first thing is, it used to be nervous for the time.
[54:13.580 --> 54:14.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: N-E-R-V-O-U-S, I think it was.
[54:15.260 --> 54:16.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: What's the exchange, N-E-R?
[54:17.340 --> 54:17.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: 937.
[54:17.660 --> 54:17.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: 937.
[54:18.780 --> 54:20.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, it would be 6-something, wouldn't it?
[54:20.340 --> 54:21.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, 637.
[54:21.300 --> 54:21.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't remember.
[54:21.760 --> 54:22.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: 637.
[54:22.380 --> 54:23.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think he was nervous.
[54:23.540 --> 54:23.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Nervous.
[54:23.820 --> 54:33.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, the second thing I'm calling about is last week, you had a guy on, a professor, that came on and talked about the maximum speed of bits that can go over a phone line.
[54:33.240 --> 54:34.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: I knew this was going to come up again.
[54:34.400 --> 54:34.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, go ahead.
[54:35.060 --> 54:35.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, boy.
[54:35.280 --> 54:35.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[54:36.100 --> 54:36.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: What is it?
[54:36.660 --> 54:37.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: What was he talking about?
[54:37.660 --> 54:38.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: RF radiation?
[54:39.080 --> 54:41.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would like to know if you guys know anything about that.
[54:42.900 --> 54:46.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder if it's in the Blue Book, the notes on the network.
[54:46.780 --> 54:52.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, of course, you can listen to the show again on the net and go over it second by second and try to figure it out.
[54:53.620 --> 54:56.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, do you know what, is there an FCC rule on that?
[54:56.760 --> 54:59.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, well, he was saying something about that.
[54:59.020 --> 55:00.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: I certainly never heard that before.
[55:01.160 --> 55:02.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't sound logical.
[55:02.780 --> 55:04.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, could you cause a problem?
[55:05.120 --> 55:11.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: The only thing I've ever heard is that there's an electrical limitation just by the laws of physics.
[55:11.700 --> 55:11.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[55:12.540 --> 55:15.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: That there's the Shannon's rule.
[55:15.540 --> 55:18.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, Shannon's rule is also the Nyquist criteria, the bandwidth criteria.
[55:19.160 --> 55:19.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[55:19.360 --> 55:24.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: But what he was talking about, I didn't understand if this guy was, I don't know if he was, didn't know what he was talking about.
[55:24.980 --> 55:26.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: I understand, I think he's a professor.
[55:26.520 --> 55:32.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was talking about, he talked about Fourier analysis, but I didn't know that could affect him.
[55:33.000 --> 55:37.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: It could be cross-talk, but going back to 1920, they knew the maximum bitrate at that point.
[55:37.480 --> 55:38.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: They made a rule, and that was it.
[55:38.620 --> 55:41.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I'm wondering if you guys know anything about that.
[55:42.040 --> 55:51.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it didn't really make much sense to me, because, I mean, if you get ISDN or ADSL, they're doing extremely high speeds over the same copper pair that you always had.
[55:52.660 --> 55:54.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not going over the same wire, right?
[55:54.960 --> 55:56.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: ADSL goes over the same pair?
[55:56.200 --> 55:58.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it goes over the same single pair.
[55:58.960 --> 56:01.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't think the guy knew what he was talking about.
[56:01.100 --> 56:02.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't mean to be disrespectful to the guy.
[56:02.960 --> 56:11.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: But as far as, I asked around a couple of people, they said there's no FCC rule as far as the maximum signal you can put to the phone line.
[56:11.200 --> 56:13.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's up to the phone company if their equipment will handle it.
[56:13.320 --> 56:13.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[56:13.760 --> 56:14.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you've got the bandwidth.
[56:14.680 --> 56:15.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's all I wanted to say tonight.
[56:16.100 --> 56:22.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: But as far as, oh, by the way, the pay phones out there, some of the co-carts, and that wasn't morbid, some of the co-carts will do that, by the way.
[56:23.140 --> 56:25.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, the co-carts are individually programmed.
[56:25.640 --> 56:25.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, yeah.
[56:26.140 --> 56:31.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's not like it's done, and by the way, now a lot of the phones in the phone company now are really co-carts, too.
[56:31.560 --> 56:34.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: So the phones are not being done by the central office anymore.
[56:35.380 --> 56:37.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, this is definitely true.
[56:37.500 --> 56:42.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Some of the Bell Atlantic phones are really just co-carts, really, and they're just going around.
[56:42.240 --> 56:47.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's no longer that they're doing the switching or the programming in the central office.
[56:47.940 --> 56:49.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's all in the telephone.
[56:50.240 --> 56:52.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, now you're getting lousy service from everybody.
[56:53.520 --> 56:54.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's true.
[56:54.280 --> 56:54.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's true.
[56:54.720 --> 56:59.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: We saw that coming with 9X with the co-carts that they were operating to say thank you for using 9X.
[56:59.460 --> 57:00.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, by the way.
[57:00.120 --> 57:01.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now say thank you for using Bell Atlantic.
[57:01.560 --> 57:03.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, by the way, those phones are made in China.
[57:03.760 --> 57:05.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're not even Bell...
[57:05.180 --> 57:06.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're really clubby phones.
[57:07.880 --> 57:13.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you look inside of the same basic boards as some of the other people, they're buying the same phones.
[57:13.300 --> 57:15.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: The phones themselves are made in China or just the circuitry?
[57:15.780 --> 57:16.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: The phones themselves.
[57:17.360 --> 57:18.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: The whole chassis.
[57:18.480 --> 57:19.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Those are not Western electric phones.
[57:20.560 --> 57:21.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know about that.
[57:22.040 --> 57:22.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, no.
[57:22.900 --> 57:23.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: The, um...
[57:23.880 --> 57:25.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, I thought they were made in Japan.
[57:26.340 --> 57:28.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: China and some of them aren't made in Japan.
[57:28.700 --> 57:32.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, Bell Atlantic or 9X, buy the cheapest phones they can.
[57:32.640 --> 57:33.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: They put them out to bid.
[57:34.100 --> 57:34.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right.
[57:34.560 --> 57:36.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, we'll have to investigate that a little further.
[57:36.400 --> 57:36.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for the call.
[57:37.040 --> 57:37.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: We are out of time.
[57:38.380 --> 57:39.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Boy, it went fast.
[57:40.480 --> 57:44.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, we'll be back again next week on the net and, um...
[57:44.840 --> 57:47.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Over the air, here on WBAI in New York.
[57:47.540 --> 57:49.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein for Fiber Optic.
[57:50.520 --> 57:51.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: We'll see you then.
[57:51.800 --> 57:52.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good night.