Lebanese journalist Mona Atway takes us on a pilgrimage to Kana Shrine,
site of the 1996 Israeli bombing of a refugee camp in South Lebanon.
I'm Barbara Nimri-Aziz, inviting you to join us this Saturday, November 22nd at 3 p.m.
That's on Arab Voice Crescent Rising.
It's WBAI's weekly program devoted to the Arab and Muslim community here and abroad.
Saturday, 3 to 4 p.m. on WBAI, listener-sponsored radio in New York.
Treat yourself to a night on the town and join us for the second celebration of the fifth anniversary of Wake Up Call.
This stellar event will take place on Saturday, November 22nd at 9 p.m.
at the spectacular Mark Ballroom, located at 27 Union Square West, between 15th and 16th streets in downtown Manhattan.
Where else can you dance to the hottest in salsa, reggae, oldies, R&B, and calypso,
spun by your favorite BAI radio personalities while supporting the best morning talk show on the planet?
Wake Up Call hats and T-shirts, which make great holiday gifts, will be available,
and there'll be plenty of door prizes and giveaways.
And Island Cuisine will be provided by Sapodilla Cafe.
Many will stay late, but even if you have to leave early,
you shouldn't miss out on the biggest best party celebration of the year.
To secure your spot on the dance floor, don't delay.
Call now, 2-1-2-2-8-9-5-9-5-1.
That's 2-1-2-2-8-9-5-9-5-1.
This celebration is sponsored by WIRE, the Women's International Resource Exchange.
Don't miss it.
And it's just about 8 o'clock.
Time for another edition of Off the Hook.
Oh, isn't that too bad?
The machine is eating the tape.
Well, I guess we don't have a theme for tonight.
We may not have a theme ever again, the way that thing looks.
Wow, look at that go.
Okay, well, what we're going to do here is put on some alternate music that we have for just such an emergency.
Yo, business!
We'll be right back.
We fixed it.
And we're off to another breathtaking start here
on another exciting edition of Off the Hook
being broadcast on 99.5 FM in New York City
and around the world on the Internet.
And tonight we have a special guest
who has been in the midst of some Internet-related things
that have been going on.
You might have heard about this.
If you read some newsletters, subscribe to some mailing lists,
you may have seen something about a police search
or at least a request for a police search
at an Internet service provider.
And something really unusual happened.
The Internet service provider refused to cooperate.
And that kind of thing just doesn't happen around here.
And this didn't happen around here either.
This happened in Holland.
Well, we have Maurice with us,
who is part of Access for All,
which I guess is the biggest provider in Holland.
Maurice, are you there?
Yeah, hi.
How are you doing?
So tell us just what happened.
You're refusing to cooperate with the police, huh?
Yeah.
Well, we're not the biggest one, but we're fairly big.
Okay, you're not the biggest, but you're fairly big.
Yeah.
All right.
Okay, what happened is about two weeks ago,
a detective and a computer expert
from the forensic science laboratories in Holland
came to our offices,
and they gave us an instruction from the Ministry of Justice
and telling us to tap all Internet traffic
to and from a user on our system
for the length of a month
and then supplying all the information to the police.
They had a technical solution also,
telling us to make an ICP,
a TCP IP dump of this traffic.
And you didn't cooperate with this?
Well, we got some legal advice,
and the conclusion was that
there is really not any legal basis
to ask anything like this from us in Dutch law.
So our conclusion was
we were asked to do something illegal,
so we refused.
Now, what would this have involved you actually doing, though,
this monitoring all traffic coming to and from this place?
You mean in the practical, technical sense?
Yes.
It would involve us installing a PC
in one of our pubs,
the pub where this user is actually dialing in.
And this PC would make a TCP IP dump,
and police would be able to FTP
every morning the dump from the day before.
Oh, really?
So they would save it in a nice little file for them,
and they'd just download it?
Right.
Of course, anybody else would be able to do this, too,
if they knew the right password.
Yes.
Well, it would also need us to secretly give this user a fixed IP address.
Okay.
Which most Jews, of course, will never find out.
Uh-huh.
Now, is this pretty much standard practice in other parts of the world
to do this kind of thing with the police?
Well, as far as we know, this is really the first thing that happened in Holland,
asking such a far-reaching technical measure.
As far as we know, it never happened before in Holland.
It never happened before in Western Europe.
Right.
But I can't really speak about the rest of the world.
You have to remember that in Europe, especially in Holland,
normal wiretapping of telephones is far more used than in the United States.
That's right.
Wiretapping of telephones is a very, very normal practice in any police investigation.
Uh-huh.
So, the police were thinking that they could now try to get this whole wiretapping thing
into the Internet.
Well, the real problem, of course, is that they can't tap modem traffic from a telephone line.
Technically, they're not able to.
So, they have to go to the source.
They have to go to the Internet service provider to do so.
Right.
Interesting.
I mean, we have this kind of thing here in the United States.
Actually, Fiber's here.
Here I am.
How are you doing?
What do you know about cooperation with the authorities?
Let's say you have a mischievous user,
and the authorities want to spy on him for a while.
Are we compelled in this country to cooperate with them?
If we're an Internet service provider, do we have to give them the logs, the traffic?
I mean, here in Holland, they were asking, I imagine, for everything, right?
Every bit of data going in and out, not just logs.
No, everything, the whole thing.
Right.
Well, unless there's actually an investigation, I mean, the authorities can subpoena the information.
Otherwise, if they don't...
But the information has to be captured in the first place for them to do that.
Right, obviously.
Right.
Yeah.
It's not.
Yeah.
Well, if it's not, then it's not.
Right.
But can they compel us here to capture that information for them in an ongoing investigation?
Well, I think people would usually be compelled to do something like that to otherwise avoid harassment from the authorities.
Uh-huh.
Well, I mean, you could just cancel the person's account.
I mean, would that be illegal to cancel the person's account?
No.
You're compelled to provide service to a criminal?
Certainly not.
Are these some of the things that you wait over there, Maurice?
Well, in Holland, the law is that they can ask us for information that's on our system, existing information.
Like, they can ask us to give them the name of the user, his real name, his address.
They could ask us to give the contents of his mailbox at the moment they're asking for it.
But what they can't do, and what they're trying now, is to ask for information that's not on the system already, but will be in the future.
Uh-huh.
And that's the whole step they're trying to make now, from information that's on the system going to information that will go through the system.
Right.
And that's the next step.
And I'm very sure that there will be possibilities in the law for them to do that in the future, but at the moment it's not possible.
So basically they want to turn you into an extension of their investigative arm.
Yes, yes.
I mean, they're asking us to make all the technical measurements.
They're asking us to do the capturing.
They're asking us to do everything.
Uh-huh.
So they must be kind of upset with you now, having refused to do this and refused to do so publicly, too.
Well, the funny thing is we haven't had any reaction from the Ministry of Justice until now.
We had many reactions from the media, from the academic world, from the net community.
Which are all supporting us very well.
But you could also look at this from another side.
You could also think that this is the...
They are trying to prove that there should be a law making this possible.
Okay.
Because I can't really believe that Dutch police would come to Access for All in the belief that we would cooperate with such a thing.
They must have calculated on forehand that we would refuse.
Uh-huh.
I'm very confident about that.
So you're saying that...
They just want to make a point.
They just want to...
They're trying to make you a test case.
I'm sure, yeah.
So that they can have this be expected of other ISPs in the future.
They can go to the Parliament now and say, you see, we need a law to make this possible.
Now, this must have caused all kinds of panic among your users, wondering which of them it was that was being investigated by the police.
No, not really.
Not yet.
Not yet.
Okay.
I got one mail.
Uh-huh.
One mail only.
Uh-huh.
But most of the users are just saying that they are very glad that we don't cooperate with such a thing.
Uh-huh.
I only got one mail from a user asking if it was concerning him.
And you can tell us, was it?
No.
Okay.
I won't tell you.
Oh, you won't tell us either way.
No, the whole point is that we decided we are not going to tell what the criminal act is.
We're not going to tell who the user is.
Uh-huh.
We're not going, we're even not going to tell what part of the country the police is asking us.
Uh-huh.
And there are two reasons for this.
The first reason is, if we would say so, police could accuse us of obstructing the investigation,
even making the investigation impossible.
Right.
We don't want that.
Second thing is, the whole discussion about this will then go towards a discussion about how bad the crime is.
And if the conclusion in that discussion is that this crime is very bad,
then maybe we should have worked together with the police.
The actual crime would obscure what it is that you're trying to point out,
mainly that the ISP should not be put in the role of monitoring the user.
Any discussion about the crime should be in court.
Right.
Not with us.
We just want to make a point about the legal basis of the whole instruction.
Now, to what degree would your cooperation extend?
If they just asked for logs, would you provide those?
Well, I can tell you what is happening very regularly.
And what happens a few times per month is police asking us who is the in-real-life person behind the email address.
Okay.
And what happens then?
You're getting that information?
If they have a serious instruction with all the autographs and all the legal details that are required, then we'll give it.
I see.
We have to.
Yeah.
There's a very clear legal basis for them to ask such a thing.
We can't refuse that.
Now, did they come to you with the same legal papers this time?
Yeah, the same one, but...
They wanted a bit more.
They wanted a bit more.
They wanted far more.
Wow.
Well, I only hope people in other parts of the world, and including this country, would take a stand like that, you know, stand up to authority.
I mean, it must have been kind of scary having to do this.
Who was it who actually made the decision?
Was it a committee?
Was it a single person there meeting the police?
Or did it all happen through the mail?
No, we had a discussion within the company, but we came within an hour to the conclusion that we should refuse it.
It all went very fast.
And no reaction as of yet from the police?
No, but I expect them to come in every moment to make up a report for a refusal, because the refusal is a crime.
Uh-huh.
Refusal to...
To work with the instruction, to not give them what they want, is a crime.
Yeah.
Right, but there is no legal basis for them asking for that in the first place, is there?
Right.
So this means that our case will go to court, and the court will decide if our refusal was right or wrong.
And that's exactly what we want now.
We have asked them to please bring us to court.
Uh-huh.
Please do it.
Right.
Well, I'm sure the rest of the internet community will be watching this.
Is there any way people can get updates or help out in any way?
Yeah, we have a website, and we keep all the updates on our website.
It's www.xs4all.nl.
Okay, that's xs4all.nl.
Yeah, right.
And then I'll give all the updates.
Is there anything people here can do to help?
Well, not at the moment, because we're still waiting for any response.
Nothing really happened yet.
But as soon as we have some kind of response, we'll send out a request, if needed.
Okay, Maurice from Access4All, you guys have always been an inspiration to us over here.
And I want to thank you for staying up late and talking to us today.
Okay, thanks a lot.
Best of luck.
Okay, bye.
Bye-bye.
All right, I'm told we have about 200 listeners on the internet right now, which is great.
Our phone number is 212-279-3400, and if you're calling from outside the country, country code 1.
And, of course, if you're in New York City, you don't have to file the area card or any of that.
So you have a tremendous advantage.
200 listeners.
I think that's more than we ever had before.
Not bad.
That's a lot.
It keeps growing week after week.
So lots of interesting things happening this week.
Oh, boy.
This Dutch thing is just one of them.
But you know what I heard on the radio on the way in today?
This is unbelievable.
The latest thing that they're doing for New Jersey teenagers who have run afoul of the law, all right?
These are people that, you know, have some kind of juvenile problem with the police, and they need to be monitored.
Well, basically what's happening is they're being given ankle bracelets, nothing really unusual there.
But they're also being given these four-pound devices that they have to carry with them all the time.
Do you know what those four-pound devices do?
Um, let me guess.
They're a homing beacon.
Exactly.
But basically, these juvenile delinquents are tied in by a GPS, and their whereabouts are monitored at all times.
Satellites tracking teenagers in New Jersey.
That's what, remember a few years ago when our bulletin board got busted, it was New Jersey teens tracking satellites?
Well, now the satellites are tracking New Jersey teens.
It's come full circle.
So, and, uh, I don't know, it's, um, I guess we could sort of see this coming, but the question is, where is it going?
You know, are we all going to be tracked in some way via our easy passes or metro cards or whatnot?
We think Singapore is bad now.
Well, Singapore is tiny, you know?
We're big.
Yeah.
And when we do something, it's, uh, it's usually imitated in the rest of the world.
I mean, that's, unfortunately, the way it seems to be.
Um, now, let's see.
We have some, uh, some interesting developments coming out of Geneva.
This is dated November 11th.
Concerned at the growing use of the internet for racist propaganda, international experts are debating how and whether to combat the spread of computerized hate messages.
Binding global controls on the internet are unlikely, officials said, since the technology is changing faster than rules can be made.
And, get this, because of free speech protection in the United States.
Seems like we're gumming things up for the rest of the world.
The United Nations is sponsoring a week-long meeting of human rights activists, government officials, and internet service providers as part of efforts to ensure compliance with an international treaty banning racial discrimination.
Uh, it ended last Friday with a list of recommendations.
There are 148 countries who have accepted this convention, and they are under obligation to enact measures to implement it, said Aghas Shaki of Pakistan, a member of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.
Are we going to say the internet should be exempt from any kind of compliance with the rules of international behavior, he asked?
It is widely agreed that the internet offers an open platform for racists and white supremacists, although nothing has proved this leads to a related rise in racist incidents.
Much of the problem stems from the United States, where groups such as the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Nations, and Skinheads base their websites.
Under the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees free speech, these groups are permitted to post their views on the internet, which can be accessed by people in other countries.
Although European countries like Sweden have moved toward making internet service providers responsible for the content they supply, such restrictions are unlikely in the United States, and hence, internationally.
In our tradition, it is only through the clash of views and vigorous debate, and not through government censorship, that equality is well served.
Philip Reitinger of the U.S. Department of Justice.
Isn't it ironic that the Department of Justice is defending the freedom of speech, that they're always attacking, you know?
Unbelievable.
That principle, one which accords freedom of expression the highest respect, applies with equal force to the internet.
Yeah, I just want to save that quote, and just throw it back at them every time they try to, you know, shut somebody down for something, or accuse them of doing all kinds of evil things via the internet.
Because they use the internet, it's so much worse.
It's so much more of a threat.
But while the U.S. computer industry is voluntarily working on ways to ensure that computer smut isn't accessible to minors,
Eric Lee of the internet service provider Commercial Internet Exchange said,
It was not feasible and not desirable for internet providers to act as censors.
It's difficult, if not impossible, to suppress content on the web because there are so many ways to evade controls.
Which does not mean that one should not take steps to limit behavior, but coming up with foolproof controls is virtually impossible.
Makes sense, right? There's always a way around something.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.
Okay.
Now, we caused quite a bit of a controversy last week when we gave out the code.
Oh, the foof.
The foof code that broke the internet again.
And again, we have to say we're sorry for doing that, and we hope people have recovered by now.
At least one operating system has come up with a patch.
I'm told that the Linux folks now have fixed the bug in software.
There's a patch for kernel 2.0.31.
Well, actually, there's a couple of Unix versions that have come out with interim patches.
Linux is one, BSDI and NetBSD have also, as of the last time I checked, which was last night.
The Linux folks, as usual, are claiming it's the fix instead of an interim fix, which is typical.
The BSDI and NetBSD people are explaining that it's an interim fix in the absence of a better solution.
Because certain things, which are probably fairly innocuous, would be falsely identified by the CPU.
Certain interrupts and things, which would actually be probably pretty boring if I got into the details.
Probably would be, yeah.
But, yeah, there is a patch for Linux, NetBSD, and BSDI as of this moment.
Now, do you advise people patch it, or should we wait until people mess it up first?
Well, what I would do, certainly if I was an Internet service provider, and let's say if I was running NetBSD,
if I was running Linux, I'd have much worse problems.
But as far as NetBSD goes, what you should probably do, since it's so easy to have a disruption of your service,
I would try applying the patch and try performing the FOOF code yourself on purpose to see how well it works for you.
And, certainly, if it does work, where the FOOF does not disrupt your system,
what you should probably do is keep a close watch on the system for the next couple of weeks,
just to make sure everything's okay.
And then, I'm sure at some point in time within the next month, I would actually be surprised if it wasn't so.
So, I'm sure a real fix will be issued and agreed upon as the best solution.
I'm passing you a letter.
A letter.
It's from a Real Audio listener as far as fixing the bug, which we'll get into in just a moment.
First, I want to read this letter from Toronto.
I am a Real Audio listener from Toronto, Canada.
I heard you guys talking about smart cards and how similar they looked and availability internationally.
Well, if you check out the latest Wired magazine, November, and you go to page 216 and 217,
you will see close-ups of 12 smart cards from around the globe.
It's pretty cool.
Thought you and Fiverr might like it.
Hmm.
P.S.
Your show is wicked, but I'd like to know, who sings that starting song?
It kind of sounds like Atari Teenage Riot.
Well, you know, it's funny because Atari Teenage Riot does not sing our intro,
since we've had this intro since 1988.
And I don't think they were even born then.
Um, that was, uh, the intro, we've played Atari Teenage Riot,
so maybe that's what the person heard a few shows back.
But, uh, the intro is done by someone known as Don Letts,
who was part of a band called They Go To Your Dynamite.
And, uh, that's the flip side of a, of a single called Just Play Music,
which I doubt anybody's going to find, and it's not on any CD anywhere,
so please stop asking.
There.
Yes, you have something over there.
Yeah, actually, um, I did forget to mention that, uh, SCO, uh, Santa Cruz,
also has, uh, a patch for this.
The, um, I did read this, uh, memo that, uh, that somebody sent
that, uh, describes a microcode patch for the, uh, the P6,
which, uh, I'm kind of confused about.
Number one, there was a lot of controversy surrounding whether or not
the, uh, Pentium's microcode could actually be patched through software,
uh, while the machine was in a normal operating state.
Um, this was, this would be considered rather bad if that was possible,
since, um, viruses or security exploits or, or what have you,
uh, might forcibly, uh, modify the microcode
to, uh, bypass any, um, uh, protected mode, uh, facilities
that are in place in the CPU.
For example, if you're running Unix, that would allow a regular user
to bypass, uh, all memory protection.
Um, something like that was, was discussed on, uh, on BugTrack,
the security mailing list, as being a particularly useful way
of, uh, an intruder could exploit, uh, the fact that microcode
could be modifiable.
Um, in this particular case, though, what I don't understand
is that SCO is issuing a microcode patch to, uh, to their P6 customers,
uh, which, which is Pentium Pro and Pentium 2.
Uh, the Pentium Pro and Pentium 2 are not affected by the FOOF exploit.
Really?
So, why they're issuing this, uh, this, this microcode patch, I don't know.
Are you sure?
Positive.
Is it affected?
Okay.
Yeah.
So, only the P5s are affected, not the P6s.
Hmm.
The only thing I can, the only thing I can think of is, um...
This thing's a whole lot bigger than we think it is.
Yeah, or possibly Intel, um, got to looking into the matter
and maybe they found something related in the P6, uh, CPUs.
That they don't want to tell us about.
Yeah.
Which I'm sure somebody eventually will find, because all they need to do is take this and
figure out what the problem was.
And at the same time, they can also use this and probably figure out how to patch the microcode.
Now, from what, everything that I've, I've read and researched, only the P6 allows the microcode
to be patched through software.
Um, from everything that I've been able to find out, none of the P5 machines allow this.
Um, so whether, whether or not that's actually true, um, if anybody has any, any information
about that, I know there was somebody last week that called in that claims that they,
uh, that they modified microcode on P5s, well, I, I would have to challenge them to prove it.
Because, uh, nothing that I've found would indicate that this is true and no one I've spoken with,
uh, is telling me that this is possible.
Only on the P6 machines, not the P5s.
Now, if you're going to get through tonight, you can always email us, OTH at 2600.com.
And, uh, since most people don't get through, that's probably the best way to pass us along any information.
And, of course, we'll share it with the folks in upcoming shows.
Uh, a California listener sent in this ADSL update.
Um, this comes from a newsletter that, uh, that I guess he subscribes to.
Uh, from GameCenter.com.
The ADSL update.
When I wrote about modem alternatives a few months ago, I was swamped by questions from you all.
What would ADSL cost per month?
What sort of speed is actually possible?
Do I need to rewire?
And so on.
Because there was no ADSL implementation in my area,
I had to leave a lot of those questions unanswered until today.
Looks like, as of today, Pacific Bell is finally rolling out ADSL service to selected communities in the San Francisco Bay Area.
This may not be big news for you out-of-towners, but it will help shed light on how ADSL may be implemented by your phone company sometime down the line.
Here's what I found.
Pac-Bell's service is called Fast Track DSL.
Who comes up with these lame names?
Unfortunately, the targeted customer isn't the average net freak dying for faster bandwidth.
Sorry, folks.
Pac-Bell is targeting small to mid-sized businesses and subcontractors and telecommuters covered by fat corporate funding.
You see where this is going with, uh, with the price that they're going to be asking.
Yep.
Nothing is going to reflect what we saw in Canada, unfortunately.
There are also a number of technical prerequisites.
First, you need to have the right copper wiring.
Apparently, newer buildings and housing developments went ahead and installed fiber-optic lines,
so those folks, for the time being, are out of luck.
Also, you have to be 2.5 or fewer miles away from the Pacific Bell Central Office.
Do you know how far away you are from the nearest Pacific Bell Central Office?
Um, the nearest Pacific Bell Central Office?
That's what it says.
Um, probably about 1,000 miles.
Yeah, so we're out of luck.
Yeah.
No, actually, uh, it's whatever your local central office is, obviously, uh, but, uh, how far, how far are you from your central office?
Any idea?
I can walk there in about two minutes.
Yeah, but you walk extremely fast.
Well, not really.
All right.
Well, I think I'm further than 2.5 miles.
Yeah.
I'm not sure.
Actually, no.
If you can get ISDN.
Really?
You think if I can get ISDN, I can do this?
Yeah, well, ISDN is, uh, 18,000 feet.
Uh-huh.
Which is how many miles?
Well, that 2.5 miles, it's, uh, that's more than 2.5 miles.
Okay.
That's over three miles.
18,000 feet is more than three miles.
Yeah, well, there's 5,280 feet in a mile.
I just barely made it.
I know that much.
Yeah.
So if I just barely made that, I don't think I'm going to make this.
Yeah.
But anyway, um, so you need to be 2.5 or fewer miles away from the Pacific Bell Central Office
or wherever you happen to be, um, on a connection that does not use voice amplifiers.
Anything further away, you're also out of luck.
You must call Pac Bell to verify whether you meet these requirements.
For, uh, people in the Bay Area, the cities covered by this new service include Burlingame,
Danville, Los Altos, Mountain View, Palo Alto, Redwood City, San Jose, San Ramon, and Santa Clara.
Everybody else out there?
You're out of luck for now.
Now, on with the speed.
The service will roll out in two flavors.
3, 8, 4, KBPS, send and receive capability, or 3, 8, 4, KBPS, send and, uh-oh, I stapled
right over, a 1.5 MBPS receive.
Actual maximum speed, however, will depend on how close you are to a central station.
My cynical guess is that to hit 1.5, you'll need to be next door.
Does that sound right to you?
Oh, I don't know if that's necessarily true.
I mean, the numbers, not, not hysteria.
The fact that it's, uh, 384 kilobits and T1 speed coming in.
Yeah.
Um, sounds reasonable.
Whether or not PacBell is going to be able to deliver that kind of bandwidth is, is another
story.
And brace yourself for pricing.
PacBell estimates a monthly charge of $80 to $259.
There is an additional $95 monthly charge if you want to connect to the internet instead
of to a corporate network.
And PacBell currently has only one ISP, Concentric, handling ADSL subscribers.
Installation is expected to take 10 days thanks to a special ADSL team assigned to the task.
65% of all homes in the target area are supposedly ADSL compliant.
So, the news from there is not as good as we had hoped, certainly, because, um, those prices
seem a bit much to me.
Yeah.
But then again, what do you expect?
This is, you know, this is America, home of the, you know, baby bells.
They're going to try to make as much as possible off, uh, off this kind of thing.
Well, I'm, I'm still waiting for the day that I can call up Bell Atlantic North and say,
I want my ADSL.
Well, you can call them now.
They just laugh at you, maybe.
Oh, yeah.
That's the problem.
I've heard, I've heard rumors going around.
You've probably heard the same rumors.
That there's some kind of a tariff being passed around in the Public Service Commission to, uh, wipe out data over voice.
Have you seen that?
Yeah, but the only problem, though, is that this, this imaginary tariff has been floating around for the past, I don't know how many years.
Yeah, well, I've heard that it might be landing now.
Well, it's hard, it's hard to, well, all the other times it was totally made up, so I, I don't, I mean, it's, it's hard to believe these things.
Right, well, it's especially hard to believe it when the actual tariff is not quoted, and I find that to be true of just about anything you see floating around on the Internet.
If something actually isn't quoted, you can't go there and look it up yourself.
Yeah.
Odds are something isn't quite right, so while we're not saying that it's false, we're saying that right now we don't know that it's true because we haven't seen anything,
but if something like that were to happen, first of all, how would they do it technically? Could they actually...
There's no, the only thing I could really do is just charge a timed rate for all ISD and voice calls.
And that would involve changing the tariff on how phone calls are made.
Right, all ISD and voice calls would have to be timed.
Uh-huh.
And there are many places where calls are not timed in the New York area.
The way things happen in New Jersey is different, there's a totally different country over there, they live by different rules.
And they've been brought up that way so they don't complain when, you know, when Bell Atlantic pulls these things on them.
But here in New York, you know, I think Bell Atlantic will come to realize that we expect different types of rate structures.
That we deserve special treatment.
Well, not special treatment, just the treatment we've always expected.
Sure.
All right, we have a whole lot of phone callers coming in right now, so we want to get to those right away, I guess.
It's 212-279-3400.
Tell us where you're calling from, and please try to keep your comments fairly brief so the next person can get on.
We can get as many people as possible.
All right, first caller.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Hi, Emmanuel.
This is your weekly call from U.S. West territory.
U.S. West.
And what state are you in?
Nebraska.
Nebraska.
And you're the person that doesn't actually listen to us.
Yeah, because I have a slow modem.
Actually, I got a faster modem, but I don't have the cable for it, so.
So you're still not listening to us, yet you manage to get through every week.
Yeah, ironic, isn't it?
It is kind of ironic.
Yeah.
Sometimes we're not here, you know.
Sometimes they preempt us and put something else in our place, and boy, you're going to feel foolish.
Well, that's why I check the website every week.
Okay, let's see here.
If you can check the website, why can't you listen to the show?
Because I don't get the 14-4 screen.
And because I check the website in the morning.
Right.
Okay, so what's on your mind?
Okay, this week, well, so I don't have to call in two weeks.
The next Omaha meeting, or the 2600 meeting, is 6.30 p.m. December 5th at the Barnes & Noble
by Oak View.
Okay, this is the Omaha meeting, which is one of the newer ones.
Yeah, and one of the least attended ones, so.
That's because nobody knows about it yet.
But now, the word's getting out.
Yeah, I got two people who actually emailed me saying they heard it on the air.
So, let's see here.
U.S. West is in their very, very preliminary testing of cell modems.
In fact, it's not even in a box yet.
It's just a bunch of wires and boards.
And inquiring minds here want to know, a company asked me this.
They are moving out of the area of cable modems that's being serviced,
and they want to know what a cheap alternative is.
A cheap alternative to cable modems?
Yeah.
They need a cheap alternative.
Why?
To a cable.
Why?
Because they're moving out of the area where they're getting.
Because they can't get cable modems where they're going.
Probably direct PC, right?
You think that's a good alternative?
Well, I've heard that the speed is comparable,
and the rates, I think, are even cheaper.
So, will that work for business?
I don't see why it wouldn't.
I mean, I haven't used either one,
so I'm not really qualified to say one is better than the other,
but I do know they both provide Internet service,
and you can get that virtually any place if you have the view of the satellite.
You're not dependent on wiring,
so there's that.
Are they moving to a city, or is it out in the middle of nowhere?
Well, Omaha's in the middle of nowhere to begin with,
but I have no idea where they're moving.
I think they're already out on the sort of outskirts of Omaha now.
The problem with direct PC is that their outgoing connection speed
is the speed of their modem.
Ooh.
Yeah, that's...
Well, if they have cable ones,
I would think they'd have network cards, then.
Well, I mean, that's the only thing I can think of at the moment,
short of getting, you know, wiring wherever you are
for, you know, ISDN, T1 speeds, or what have you.
Yeah.
Okay.
Does that answer your question?
I think so.
All right.
One more thing on the list.
I'm writing my English term paper on 1984,
and for the miscellaneous section,
we need sort of information on 1984
and the current market and media, etc.
So how are you similar to the character of Emanuel Goldstein
in the book of 1984?
We're still in dispute about that,
and I can't believe they actually used my name in that book
without asking me.
But I really can't speak anymore about that case.
It's still pending.
But thanks very much for calling.
First the film and now the book, you know?
Unbelievable.
It's unbelievable, yes.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hi, Emanuel.
How are you doing?
Let me just find out which phone you're on.
You're not on that one.
You're on...
How many lines did you call us on?
Wait a minute.
Okay, here we are.
I'm calling from two different lines here.
Let's figure this out.
Hi, I haven't talked to you in a while.
Sixteen lights and the switchboard went out.
Hey, I just wanted to mention,
I heard about the Internet thing.
I just wanted to mention that...
You mean you heard about the Internet?
The Internet thing?
The Internet thing.
This Internet that everybody's talking about.
You heard about it, finally.
Who told him?
Who let him in on it?
The thing about, you know,
being the police tapping the Internet,
what I do is I use a fake name on the Internet service provider,
a fake phone number, and a fake address.
Giving out his methods here.
Really?
That's what the people in Holland should do.
Uh-huh.
Fake address.
About the police tapping the Internet.
They don't ask for ID when you sign up for Internet service.
Well, maybe now they will, thanks to you.
Now, also, I'd like to mention,
being that I haven't been on here in a while...
How do they bill you if you give them fake information?
You pay them by cash.
You mean you come in there every month?
Every year.
The Internet providers have things where you pay every year.
So once a year, you show up and pay cash.
Right.
Do you wear a fake face when you do that,
or do you show up, you know,
displaying who you are to everybody?
Well, I...
You ever notice the cameras?
No, you don't care about the cameras, do you?
Well, no, no, wait a minute.
How many Internet service providers have cameras, okay?
I mean, anyway, speaking of things...
I think you need to look around a little bit more.
You need to be just a little more paranoid.
Now, well, yeah, that's true.
Now, I'd just like to mention,
I was in New Jersey,
and I was trying to use a cold cut.
I was trying to deliver something somewhere.
I was trying to find the address.
You're a lot of trying there.
How much succeeding was there?
But, no, you know, I couldn't succeed,
because I went to this cold cut to call information,
New Jersey information,
to find out the address of their particular place.
And something horrible happened.
They wanted money.
Oh, boy.
Also, when I called the Bell Atlantic operator
to say, hey, can you connect me with information?
They said, sorry, there's a charge.
I said, well, no, you're...
It's a cold cut.
No, no, no, this is Bell Atlantic operator
telling me that there's a charge
on a cold cut in New Jersey.
Yeah, but you see, cold cuts play by different rules.
Yeah, but I know,
but the cold cut asked me for money,
but the Bell Atlantic,
the regular Bell Atlantic operator
was saying that there was a charge.
But the thing is, is that they said,
well, on a Bell Atlantic payphone,
there will be no charge.
So, what, do I have to drive a mile
to a Bell Atlantic payphone?
Actually, if you drive a few more miles
to Pennsylvania,
you'll find that there is indeed a charge
for information from a Bell Atlantic payphone.
And speaking of Pennsylvania...
Go figure.
I was on the Pennsylvania turnpike,
and, you know,
going on that turnpike,
you've got to pay a toll if you get off.
There's ATMs at the rest stops,
and guess what?
They charge you a dollar
to take out $10 or $20.
It's an outrage, isn't it?
Unbelievable.
It's unbelievable.
And also,
why should you be charged
for these things?
Like, you know,
there's no other ATM.
They take advantage of exploring,
you know,
the people who aren't from the area
so that they don't know
where the other ATMs are and stuff.
Well, what are you doing
going down into Pennsylvania,
wherever you are,
without any money?
Your call will be terminated.
Yeah.
Yeah, Redbox.
It's a Redbox, okay.
It's not really a Redbox.
No.
You're joshing us here.
No, of course not.
She's not satisfied.
I deposited a quarter.
Your call will be terminated.
And she's still not satisfied.
You only deposited
four-fifths of a quarter,
according to her.
Why don't you throw in a nickel
if you can?
There, I just paid 75 cents
for this call.
You know, I just paid 75 cents
for this call.
Which is just like
going to Pennsylvania
and paying a dollar
to take that $10.
I feel like I've paid
a lot more for this call.
Which is just like
going to Pennsylvania
and paying a dollar.
And it's just like
I went to a motel one time,
but they were closed.
I had to pay a toll.
We don't need to know
these things.
No, no, no.
But the point is
that I had to pay a toll
to get back on the turnpike.
Uh-huh.
Well, you know,
there's tolls everywhere in life.
I know, but I don't pay tolls.
I mean, you know,
I try and avoid tolls
when I can, you know.
It's just economically, you know.
Anything else?
Um, let's see.
What else?
Uh, no, no
interesting phone experiences.
Maybe I should tell everybody
that, um,
it still works
where the AT&T operator
will connect you
with call completion
from a call card.
Okay.
In other words,
um,
you know how
when you dial one
or a long distance area code
in 555-1212,
they'll say
you can be connected
with this number?
Uh-huh.
Being that,
that doesn't work
from pay phones,
regular Bell Atlantic pay phones.
Um,
they will just connect
you with directory.
But if you go to a call card,
even though the phone's
identified as a call card
by AT&T
and the operator and stuff,
it would still,
when you put in the 50 cents
or whatever they ask you for,
dial one,
another area code,
555-1212,
assuming that it's connected
to AT&T in the first place.
You could,
some call card
to add the dark area
or I could code them.
Hold on,
Fiber's pen ran out of ink.
Okay, go ahead.
Uh, it'll say.
Write it in blood.
Oh, God,
I don't have more change.
I don't have any more change.
Out of change.
Out of change.
Out of those magical tones.
That's right.
He really doesn't have a red box.
To briefly sum it up,
it will work from a call card.
And I can,
and they'll think
that you're still calling directory
and you'll be able to place
long distance calls.
That is something.
That is something.
Well, listen,
thanks very much
for sharing this with us.
We don't want to get in trouble
with the operator
and whoever else
might be watching you right now.
And there are people watching you.
Don't have any fear about that.
That's happening.
All right.
That was a local call,
by the way.
You net people, please.
Give us a call,
212-279-3400.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hey, I made it through.
Back to back.
Isn't it something?
I guess I'm going to look good
compared to your previous calls.
I can't talk too long.
I have a gentleman caller over here.
Don't worry.
He's not CIA or anything.
All right, all right.
Well, you have a gentleman caller.
You've got to tend to it.
Okay, number one,
I just want to say hello
to someone who's a fan of the show
who divulged it the other night,
the Grand Master himself
of WBAI, Mr. Barfess.
And I also want to say
I'm sort of disappointed
in an ambivalent, poetic sense
that Western civilization,
as we know,
it did not end
as a result of your divulging
the Secret Code last week.
So I guess you guys
sort of built it up,
you know,
to whether it was going to be
mass hysteria.
Well, I don't think we have
enough listeners
because if we had more listeners,
it would have been
the end of Western civilization.
Is it sort of the cliché
that you have more
governmental agents
engaged in entrapment
listening to you
than you do
ordinary schnooks like me?
Could be.
Could be that there are
more government people,
you know,
taking an interest in this thing
and the regular people
just don't care.
My friend over here
told me an interesting anecdote.
He's sorry.
He has his own
underground radio show
that I briefly stated.
It's sort of related
to the 1984 guy.
Okay.
He was on the subway
singing this to a girl
by 86th Street
waiting for Godot.
And like,
he's into talking
to strange girls,
but I'm way too shy
to do that.
So he said to her,
I have something to tell you.
She goes,
I normally don't talk
to people on the subway,
but what?
And he said,
you know,
he never comes.
He's dead.
And then the girl
who looked like
an educated collar girl
says to him,
why did you have
to spoil it for me?
And she like,
goes to another car
on the subway.
Anyway,
fiber optic,
last thing.
I know,
hey,
sometimes you make fun
of rebel,
which is cool
and you make fun
of me.
But in my case,
I'm emotionally disabled,
so it's not really cool
to make fun of someone
without all his marbles,
but you can make fun
of rebel,
okay?
Now,
how do we know
you're not just
somebody saying
you're emotionally disabled?
Oh,
yeah,
my evil twin.
No,
I'm like a mere genius.
I mean,
I sound like this suave,
sophisticated Gary Null type,
but,
you hear my friend?
That's my friend.
I'm really a moron.
I have to feed him
now like a cheese
and mayonnaise sandwich,
so I'll take care of you guys.
All right,
you've got a gentleman
caller to deal with right now
that I'm sure
they'll be reading about
in the paper
at some point.
All right,
212-279-3400.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hi.
How are you doing?
I'm calling from the New York area.
Okay.
I'm listening to your show
on the radio,
and I'm interested
in how my friend
in Florida
can listen to your show
live on his computer.
Okay,
if he connects
to our website
at www.2600.com,
you'll see a pointer there
for Off the Hook,
and there should be
a button to connect
to real audio,
and should be able to just,
if he has a sound card,
assuming he has,
you know,
something on his computer
that enables him
to listen to things,
and he has a connection
to the net
of 28.8 or better.
Actually,
I think 14.4 will work
as well.
Yeah,
sure.
That's really all
he should have to do.
Okay,
good.
Thank you.
All right.
Bye.
And he has about 14 minutes
to do it this week.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Okay.
That person waited
about 10 minutes
to hang up.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
That person was
a little faster.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
That's me,
and listen to how long
we delayed.
This person is eventually
going to figure out
that they're,
in fact,
on the air.
I'm calling
from Toronto,
Canada.
Toronto.
You know,
I could almost tell
from your accent
that you were
from Canada.
Yeah,
eh?
Yeah.
Well,
I don't mean it
to be a put-down.
I like the Canadian
accents.
Thanks a lot.
They're pretty cool.
Okay,
I wanted to ask first off
about the Hacker's CD2
and what the deal
with that is.
Could you turn down
your sound blaster
or whatever that is?
Okay.
It's a little bit...
That hum,
that hum isn't part
of our broadcast,
is it?
No.
I think that's
your phone connection.
Okay.
I wanted to ask
about the Hacker's
soundtrack 2
and what the deal
with that.
All right.
There's been a
widespread panic
in the NET community
that there is a sequel
to the film Hacker's.
Let me state right now
that that is not
in fact so.
Okay.
There is simply
a second Hacker's
soundtrack.
Yeah,
it's on...
It should be called
Hacker's Soundtrack 2,
not Hackers 2 Soundtrack.
It's on our Much Music,
the equivalent to MTV.
Right.
No,
we get Much Music
down here too.
Okay.
Have they been playing it?
Yeah,
they actually,
they had a lot of
commercials for it.
Uh-huh.
Okay,
and I wanted to also
bring up something.
There's a lot of people
running around.
I just wanted to ask you
what you thought about this.
There's a lot of people
running around
using similar handles
and actually using
other people's handles.
That's a catastrophe.
It's a big problem.
Yes.
And I've had to actually
change to something that
words that people
didn't even know existed.
The solution is to
register your handle
with the government
and that way
you have an
authoritative source.
That's my idea.
And I wanted to know
also about the
if there's a
hacking scene in Toronto
because I know
there was a meeting
at the dot-com cafe.
Okay,
now you see
here's the thing.
Toronto has
a very big scene
and in fact
there were meetings
at the dot-com cafe
until the dot-com cafe
closed,
hopefully not because
of the meetings.
I'm told
and this will be
published in the
newest issue
and that eventually
comes out
that they're being
held across the street
from the Much Music
building I think
in a place called
Harvey's.
Okay.
Is there a place
called Harvey's up there?
Yeah.
Okay,
that's where they are
right now.
It's an interim place.
Okay.
So once they find
a better place
we'll let you know
what that is.
And they're being
held there?
Absolutely.
And one last question
quick about the
PCS phones.
Yes.
And are they
similar to the
GSM phones?
Yeah,
well they are
GSM phones
but they're also
CDMA.
Okay.
PCS is basically
it's a wide range
of different services.
Okay,
there's like
eight companies
trying to sell
PCS phones.
Are they
differentiating
between GSM
providers?
I know.
They're just
sticking with
the...
Actually,
Bell has
these really
obnoxious
commercials
with this
little girl
who starts
talking about
why Bell
is better
and how
their phones
are like a
racing car
that come
with great
features
and how
the other
providers
don't give
you the
road you
need to
drive on.
Things like
that.
And it's
just starting
to get
on my
nerves.
What services
does Bell
offer up
there?
Bell
offers,
I think
they have
voicemail.
This is
PCS?
Yeah.
You just
get voicemail,
just regular
phone service.
They don't
actually give
too much.
I was looking
at them.
I think
two weeks
ago we read
something about
various
PCS services
up there
in Canada.
So you
might want
to compare
those.
Okay.
There's
actually,
now in the
newspaper,
there's a
section called
mobile
communication
every Thursday
and that
talks about
all the
different
choices and
stuff for
pages.
I don't
think
Bell Canada
actually offers
GSM.
It might be
CDMA.
It's not
GSM.
I think
the big
GSM
provider in
your area
is
Microcell.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well,
thanks a lot.
All right.
Good luck.
Bye.
Bye.
That was
a call
from Toronto.
You have
something for
us from
Queens,
I think.
From Queens,
yeah.
What do
you got?
Actually,
it says
somebody
saying that
originally
they could
make a
free phone
call to
their
precinct,
their police
precinct,
from a
pay phone.
Not 911.
Not 911.
They're claiming
that it's
their local
precinct phone
number.
They could
just call
the seven
digit
number.
That's
what they're
saying.
And not
incur a
charge.
On a
pay phone,
and now
they're saying
that they
can't.
How many
people knew
they could?
I didn't
know that
you could.
I didn't
know that
either.
I'm going
right downstairs
and going
to try
this.
Not that
I've ever
needed to
call the
precinct,
but...
If it's
not an
emergency,
why shouldn't
you put
a quarter
in?
That's
true.
For that
matter,
if it's
not an
emergency,
why call
from a
pay phone?
Well,
for that
matter,
can you
call the
number for
the fire
department
that no
one knows
for free
on a
pay phone?
Why is
there a
number for
the fire
department
that nobody
knows?
You know
that the
fire department
for the
last gazillion
years has
owned 999.
You could
dial anything
in 999 and
directly reach
the fire
department,
and if there
was an
emergency,
if there
was a fire,
you wouldn't
have to call
911 and wait
on hold.
Yeah,
that's like a
little publicized
fact,
but did you
always get
connected to
your local
fire department
or just
anyone at
random in
the city?
I think you
got connected
to your local
one.
Really?
So what is
it that's
telling you?
Is there
something in
your central
office that
says 999?
How to
route 999?
Yeah.
There would
have to be.
Interesting.
Well, if anyone
out there is
into the
switches,
please let us
know what
they're doing
in there with
999,
because that's...
I remember
999 used to
be a parallel
to 976.
I don't know
if anybody else
remembers this.
Back in the
70s, I think.
I remember in
the 70s,
there was 936.
It was also
936.
936, and
that was...
976 came
after that.
You remember
what the first
one was?
It was 936-36-36-36.
It was Santa
Well, wasn't
the time also
in there?
The time was
976.
The time was
something else
before it was
976.
Really?
Yeah.
I'm sure somebody
out there
remembers this.
I just remember
it was something
different.
It was a
different number.
I don't think
it was 936
or 976.
I think it
was something
else.
Really?
Yes.
But get to
the Queens
thing.
That was it.
That's the
whole thing?
He says that
he can no
longer call
his police
precinct for
free on the
new pay funds.
And I believe
him because
those new pay
funds are
pretty crummy.
I wonder how
the police
feel about
that.
He can no
longer call
them.
Well,
interesting.
All right.
212-279-3400 is
our phone number.
Let's pick this
one over here.
Good evening.
You're on the
air.
Speak up,
please.
Yes, go ahead.
Yes.
First thing is
it used to be
nervous for the
time.
N-E-R-V-O-U-S
I think it was.
What's the
exchange?
N-E-R.
9-3-7.
No, it would
be 6-something,
wouldn't it?
Yes, 6-3-7.
I don't remember.
6-3-7.
I think he was
nervous.
Nervous.
Okay, the second
thing I'm calling
about is last
week you had a
guy on, a
professor, that
came on and
talked about the
maximum speed of
bits that can go
over a phone line.
I knew this was
going to come up
again.
Yes, go ahead.
I don't know.
What was he
talking about?
RF radiation?
I would like to
know if you guys
know anything about
that.
I wonder if it's
in the blue book
and the notes on
the network.
Well, of course,
you can listen to
the show again on
the net and go
over it second by
second and try to
figure it out.
Well, do you know
what, is there an
FCC rule on that?
Oh, well, he was
saying something
about that.
I certainly never
heard that before.
It doesn't sound
logical.
I mean, could you
cause the problem?
The only thing I've
ever heard is that
there's an electrical
limitation just by
the laws of physics.
Right.
that there's the
Shannon's rule.
Yeah, Shannon's rule
is also the
Nyquist criteria,
the bandwidth
criteria.
Right.
But what he was
talking about, I
didn't understand
this guy was, I
don't know if he
was, didn't know
what he was
talking about.
I understand, I
think he's a
professor.
He was talking
about, he talked
about Fourier's
analysis, but I
didn't know that
could affect him.
It could be
cross-talk, but
going back to
1920, they knew
the maximum
bitrate at that
point.
They made a
rule and that
was it.
Well, it
didn't really make
much sense to me
because, I mean,
if you get ISDN
or ADSL, they're
doing extremely
high speeds over
the same copper
pair that you
always had.
It's going over
the same wire,
right?
ADSL goes over
the same pair?
Yeah, it goes
over the same
single pair.
Yeah, I don't
think the guy
knew what he
was talking
about.
I don't need
to be disrespectful
to the guy,
but as far as
I asked around a
couple of people,
they said there's
no FCC rule as
far as the
maximum, uh,
signal you
can put
through the
phone line.
It's up to
the phone
company if
the equipment
will handle
it if you
got the
bandwidth.
That's all
I wanted to
say tonight.
But as far as,
oh, by the
way, the
pay phones out
there, some
of the
co-cots,
and that
wasn't
morbid, some
of the
co-cots will
do that by
the way.
You know, the
co-cots are
individually
programmed.
Oh, yeah.
So it's not
like it's done,
and by the
way, a lot of
the phones in
the phone
company now are
really co-cots
too.
The phones are
Bell Atlantic
phones are
really just
co-cots,
really, and
they're just
going around.
It's no longer
that they're
doing the
switching or
the programming
in a central
office.
It's all in
the telephone.
So, you
know, now
you're getting
lousy service
from everybody.
That's true.
That's true.
We saw that
coming with
9X with the
co-cots that
they were
operating to
say thank
you for
using 9X.
Yeah, by the
way, thank
you for using
Bell Atlantic.
Yeah, by the
way, those
phones are made
of China.
They're not
even Bell,
they're really
crummy phones.
The phones
themselves are
made in China
or just the
circuitry?
The phones
themselves.
The whole
chassis.
Those are not
Western electric
phones.
I don't know
about that.
Actually, I
thought they
were made in
Japan.
China and
some of them
are made in
Japan.
By the way,
Bell Atlantic
or 9X buys
the cheapest
phones they
can.
They put them
out to bid.
All right,
we'll have to
investigate that
a little further.
Thanks for the
call.
We are out
of time.
Boy, it
went fast.
Well, we'll
be back again
next week on
the net and
over the air
here on WBAI
New York.
This is
Emanuel Goldstein
for Fiber
Optic.
We'll see you
then.
Good night.
The telephone
keeps ringing.
So I ripped it
off the wall.
I cut myself
while shaving.
Now I can't
make a call.
It couldn't get
much worse.
But if they could,
they would.
Bum, did we
bump?
But the best
expect from us.
I hope that's
understood
breaking health
moon.
Go!
Lebanese journalist Mona Atway takes us on
a pilgrimage to Kana Shrine, site of the 1996 Israeli bombing of a refugee camp in South
Lebanon. I'm Barbara Nimri-Aziz inviting you to join us this Saturday, November 22nd at 3 p.m.
That's on Arab Voice Crescent Rising. It's WBAI's weekly program devoted to the Arab...