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And it's just about 8 o'clock, you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
Time once again for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
But really, Bump was the best, expect the worst.
I hope I've understood, but really, Bump!
Bump!
And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI.
This is Off the Hook.
Emanuel Goldstein here with you.
And I think all my notes have just been stolen for the show.
Almighty I, how beautiful a pleasant it is.
Let's go.
Okay, everything's under control now.
Well, almost, really.
There's always panic going around somewhere.
And it's kind of up to us to help spread it around just a bit.
And, uh, this is from the 700 Club. We just got this.
You know, those nice religious guys over there.
Cyber terror.
Are we approaching an electronic Armageddon?
You know, I think there should be an agreement.
We don't talk about religion. They don't talk about computers, you know.
But, uh, since they violated that, I guess I can talk about religion now.
Hey, listen to this.
Straight from the 700 Club.
Two of the biggest threats against the United States could be a keyboard and computer.
Now, right away, I mean, how can a keyboard be a threat without a computer?
Unless you bash one of them over the head with it. I don't know.
As a digital nation, and this part is underlined,
America is dependent on its computers, making the country and its people very vulnerable to cyber terror.
What in the world is cyber terror, you may ask?
Computer hackers using electronic equipment can invade homes and businesses, stealing and destroying valuable data.
The problem has existed for some time, but the threat is growing.
In fact, a presidential commission recently issued a report citing America's vulnerability to cyber terror.
Cyber terror, oh yes, they don't mention that it didn't make any sense.
Kind of funny.
And also, I should point out, cyber terror are two words in this particular fact sheet.
A friend of mine, Jim Suttle, first of all, the guy's name is Jim Settle, but we'll just skip over that glaring inaccuracy.
A former FBI agent, he's one of the guys that was helping search for Kevin Mitnick at that conference a few years ago,
you know, arresting people who had the same, like, first name or something like that.
So, it was a lot of fun.
A friend of mine, Jim Suttle, maybe it's a different guy, a former FBI agent, said that give him...
God, what atrocious English.
A friend of mine, Jim Suttle, a former FBI agent, said that give him three hackers and 90 days,
and he'll bring the country to its knees.
I tend to agree with him.
You know who said that?
Those are the words of Winschwartel.
Yes, the same.
Arguably, arguably America's leading nitwit.
Oh, I'm sorry, I misread that.
Expert on information warfare.
What's that book doing in here?
Get that out of here.
Someone brought a copy of information warfare.
Schwartel reports that basic information warfare is already underway.
The best estimate we have today of the number of hacks that are going on is somewhere in the order of 20 million to 1 billion per year
from figures I got off the top of my head.
When we look at the cost to America, we're looking at between $100 billion to $300 billion a year.
Although the U.S. military has yet to experience a major attack on its infrastructure,
the fear is that professional hackers,
professional hackers,
spies, criminals,
or terrorists could trigger a national emergency
by attacking a vital infrastructure through the private sector.
Ooh, scary.
General Robert Marsh heads the president's commission investigating cyber terror
and was recently quoted as saying,
while a catastrophic cyber attack has not occurred,
we have enough isolated incidents to know that the potential for disaster is real
and the time to act is now.
The tools are available.
The knowledge is available to do serious harm.
Of critical U.S. concern are key areas of telecommunications,
which the military also relies on heavily,
electrical power systems,
gas and oil production,
banking and finance,
from Wall Street to ATMs,
transportation,
including air traffic control,
water supply systems,
and emergency services.
A criminal imagination could easily conceive a plan
that, if successful,
could be devastating.
Already, the banking industry has lost substantial amounts of money to hackers,
but is reluctant to report it to the police.
Somehow these 700 Club people know about this, though.
This God himself spoke to them about it.
They, uh,
they don't want their customers to lose faith,
says Swartow.
He knows how to,
how to adjust his speech to the audience.
They worry about stockholders,
potential for lawsuits,
government intervention,
but banks aren't the only ones vulnerable.
Bob Stratton,
from Security Designs International,
a firm that helps companies find the weak spots in their systems,
says,
every industry sector we have ever examined
has had vulnerabilities that were exploitable.
Another serious threat,
and this is how you know when Shorthouse is involved,
are high-energy radio frequency weapons,
or HEERF guns,
which send out electronic pulses
that destroy all electronic information in its path.
Currently,
the U.S. military possesses HEERF weapons
and may have even used them
against Iraqi positions in Desert Storm.
At least two countries,
Russia and China,
are rushing to develop similar versions
of these high-tech weapons for themselves.
Hackers, too,
are able to assemble primitive HEERF weapons
using parts purchased from a local electronics store.
Such weapons,
if used,
could
paralyze
the country.
Unbelievable.
This is copyright
the Christian Broadcasting Network.
And, uh,
I don't really know
what the purpose of this is.
I don't know what they're trying to get you to
buy something.
Well, yeah, okay, I guess.
Yes, Pat,
I want to join the 700 Club
and share God's love
with the lost and hurting.
Here is my first membership gift
of
doll science,
followed by a very long dash.
I guess you could fit about
six or seven figures in there.
And, uh,
I guess if you want the latest
on computer hackers,
you could either
subscribe to, uh,
the 700 Club
or maybe
something a little bit more
hacker-oriented.
I don't know.
That's, uh,
that's the latest from there.
Access for All
are the news.
Access for All,
they were on the show
a few weeks ago.
They filed a complaint
on Friday
with Chief Public Prosecutor
Vrecking.
in Amsterdam
against the examining
magistrate
and public prosecutor
who ordered Access for All
on October 31st
to tap the internet traffic
of one of its users.
Uh,
the Ministry of Justice
had based its instruction
on Article 125i
of the Code of Criminal Procedure.
On November 13th,
Access for All
refused to comply
as,
in its view,
this lacked
all legal basis.
Failure to comply
with legal instructions
is a penal offense
over there.
Uh,
given all the reactions
that Access for All
has meanwhile received,
it has reinforced
in its view
that the Ministry
has exceeded
its remit.
On the basis
of Article 125i
of the Code
of Criminal Procedure,
tapping is not something
that can be
or should be requested.
Access for All
believes that the attempt
by the Ministry
to compel it
to cooperate
in applying
illegal methods
of investigation
should not be allowed
to pass off
without sanction.
Access for All
is urging
that an early trial
case be brought
so that a penal court
can pronounce
on the finding
and the action
of the civil servants
involved.
That is just so cool.
I mean,
not only do these guys
refuse to,
uh,
to obey this,
but they take them
to court
for having the audacity
to, uh,
to ask them to do it
in the first place.
That's the kind of guts
we need here
in this country,
which, uh,
unfortunately,
we're,
we're sorely lacking.
Uh,
speaking of guts,
been quite a,
uh,
number of responses
to the Free Kevin
initiative.
Um,
I don't know
if, uh,
any electronic billboards
have been taken over
with the Free Kevin,
uh,
uh,
phrase or anything
else like that
or stickers or buttons
or anything like that,
but, uh,
there are some websites
popping up
with nice big letters.
In fact,
if you went to,
um,
to Internet World
last week,
this is the first time
I went to this,
actually.
Uh,
I was there,
I think,
last Thursday.
And, uh,
wandering around
all over the place,
just, uh,
checking out
the various
different booths
and,
and,
and mansions
that they've set up there.
You know,
some of these companies
are just,
like,
unbelievable,
the amount of,
uh,
I mean,
the Microsoft display,
you could live there.
Yeah,
I don't know if you'd want to,
but it's just,
it's pretty crazy,
uh,
things they have going on there.
America Online,
you know,
all those people were there.
But, uh,
you also had some,
some interesting places.
Omnipoint,
Omnipoint was there as well.
I'll get to that in a second.
But,
the thing is,
they have all these
computer browsers,
or Internet,
uh,
you know,
Explorer,
and Netscape,
Navigate,
all those things going
on these computers
that they have set up.
Now,
normally they're set up
to run displays
of the company
that, uh,
the computer belongs to.
For instance,
the AOL would have,
you know,
the AOL main page.
Um,
Bell Atlantic has
the Bell Atlantic main page.
But,
you know,
the beautiful thing
about browsers is
that they can browse,
and they can go other places.
So, um,
with about two people,
you can pull this off
pretty successfully,
where you just sort of,
you know,
have one person block
the,
the annoying sales rep,
which, uh,
insists on saying,
can I help you
if you walk up
to the computer terminal?
Or,
perhaps,
engage the representative
in some sort of
meaningless discussion
and turn them around
so they don't see
the other person
typing in the URL
that takes them
to the free Kevin banner,
which then gets displayed
on all the computer terminals
throughout the show.
Uh,
so that's, uh,
that's what internet world
can be like
if, uh,
if,
if done properly.
Uh,
if you want a copy
of the free Kevin,
uh,
GIF,
JPEG,
I'm not sure what it is,
uh,
simply go to
www.2600.com.
It only stays on there
for a couple of seconds.
We had it staying on
for a long time,
uh,
during the show,
but now,
it only stays on
for a couple of seconds
and it goes to something else.
So,
you have to catch it fast.
I think you hit it
right click or something
and then you,
you simply capture the GIF
or the JPEG
and then put it
on your own website,
spread it around,
do whatever you want with it
and, uh,
get the word out.
Okay,
so the Omnipoint booth
was there
and this was,
this was a lot of fun
because they had
the damn parrot,
you know,
the stupid parrot
from the commercial.
I don't know if it's
the same one,
but they had two of them
actually.
And this guy was like
doing all kinds of
bizarre things
to this poor parrot,
you know,
he was making it,
uh,
make it faint,
you know,
it would stand on his finger
and then he would
suddenly keel over
backwards
and do all these tricks
and,
you know,
look really cute
and stuff like that
and I realized,
you know,
about 20 minutes
into this presentation
that not a single word
had been said
about Omnipoint service.
You have to wonder,
you know,
what kind of company
uses,
you know,
a parrot
to sell long-distance service
and doesn't really,
you know,
talk about the long-distance
service as much
as the parrot.
I don't know.
It was fun.
I mean,
yeah,
I got a lot out of it,
but I didn't really
learn much about,
you know,
telephony.
But,
to Omnipoint's credit,
they have expanded
tremendously on Long Island.
In fact,
just today,
I was picking up
their signal
in places I never
dreamed I'd be able
to get their signal
and it would appear
that they've overtaken
Sprint PCS
out on the island
as far as
providing coverage.
So that's something
that I think
is kind of neat.
A couple other
news items.
One week after
federal judge
Claudia Wilkin
refused to grant
the FCC
a permanent injunction
to shut down
Free Radio Berkeley,
and ordered
the FCC
to respond
to specific
constitutional questions.
The response came
not in the form
of legal briefs
as requested,
but in the form
of a SWAT team
busting down the door
of Tampa,
Florida,
micropower broadcaster
Doug Brewer.
This happened
actually last month,
but we're just getting
reports on it now.
According to Steve
Donifer at Free Radio
Berkeley,
he says,
this certainly shows
that the FCC
has nothing but contempt
for due process
and the Bill of Rights.
It is clear
that the FCC
is carrying out
its marching orders
given to it
earlier this year
by the National
Association of Broadcasters
who have begun
a search-and-destroy
campaign against
micropower broadcasting.
Speaking for
SF Liberation Radio,
Richard Edmondson
stated,
the raid against
Doug Brewer
and other
micro-broadcasters
in Florida
coming as it has
just a week
after the federal
court ruling
in California
is a display
of lawless
thuggery,
which demonstrates
to me more
clearly than ever
that the U.S. government
does not care
about its own
courts,
its own laws,
or its own
constitution.
Okay,
and now we have
some listener
feedback,
which you're
welcome to send
to us,
either by mail.
You know,
we're not getting
enough real mail
anymore.
We get a lot
of electronic mail,
but we don't get
a whole lot of
real mail because
everyone's sending
email these days.
I guess it's good
for paper,
but still,
it's nice to get
envelopes,
you know,
and for the other
people around here
at the station,
you know,
it's good for them
to see that
Off the Hook
gets tons of
mail.
They don't see
the electronic
mail that comes
in because we
get tons of
that,
but there wasn't
a single letter
in the box
today.
So the address,
Off the Hook,
KFWBAI,
505 8th Avenue,
New York,
New York,
10018.
If you want
to email us,
oth at 2600.com.
Okay,
this person is
writing on behalf
of some people
in the greater
Richmond,
Virginia area.
A while back,
a local telephone
company called
Farmers and
Merchants Telephone
of Virginia,
straight out of
Green Acres.
They had owned
some of rural
Virginia.
Later on,
they were bought
by Centell,
which to the best
of my knowledge
owns some of
Florida.
I think they
mean owns some
of the phone
companies in
Florida,
not the actual
state.
And until a
couple of years
ago,
Centell quietly,
Sprint took
over Centell
and now
they're
Sprint
Centell
Virginia.
A couple
months ago,
a friend of
mine found
a phone
number and
when anyone
called it,
they got
another dial
tone and
they could
dial out
from there,
call anywhere,
anytime,
without any
charges on
the phone
bill.
So we
assumed
Sprint
Centell
picked up
the bill,
which we
mutually
dubbed
the loop.
We both
used that
loop,
this person
and one
other person,
we used
that loop
a lot
without any
disturbance
and service.
When my
friend foolishly
told about
eight other
people about
the loop,
it worked
for a while,
then one
night all
of us got
the same
recorded
message about
how this
guy caught
us and how
we won't
get in
there anymore.
Don't you
love those
phone company
recordings?
Yeah,
I could just
hear it in
a southern
drawl,
too.
What was
funny is
that the
guy,
his name
is Freddie
T.
Reynolds.
You don't
have to
say the
same
if you
prefer.
Well,
okay.
I don't
know how
you know
the name
of the
guy
that's
giving
the
recording.
His
voice
sounds
like
Hans
Molman
from
The
Simpsons.
I don't
know who
Hans
Molman
is in
The
Simpsons.
Is he
the guy
that looks
like a
mole?
No?
Nobody
knows who
Hans
Molman is.
Okay.
Well,
anyway,
after that
comical delight
from our
friends at
Centel,
we couldn't
use the
loop because
we would
get the
recorded
message.
I want
to ask
you or
any of
your faithful
listeners
if they
have ever
experienced
this or
know of
anyone else
that has
heard about
this.
Yes,
it's called
getting caught
making illegal
phone calls,
and you should
be glad that
that's all
that happened
to you.
Basically,
you're doing
this from
your home.
It's very
silly and
very dangerous.
And eventually,
somebody gets
a bill.
So when
somebody gets
a bill,
they tend
to do
something about
it, like
say, what
in the world
is going on
to the phone
company?
If it's the
phone company
themselves,
they can skip
that step and
just find out
what's going
on by looking
at who's
calling it.
So I
would be very
happy that
that's all
that happened.
This kind of
thing is going
on everywhere.
Let's see,
we have
this out
of England.
British Telecom
is developing
a system,
we talked
about this
actually a
while back,
developing a
system that
would transmit
motion pictures
to individual
movie houses,
replacing
traditional
celluloid
prints.
According to
the London
Sunday Telegraph,
the newspaper
said that the
system, which
reportedly has
the backing
of DreamWorks
and other
studios, may
be launched
early next
year and
may be
extended to
other countries,
effectively
supplanting
current
overseas
distribution
channels.
BT confirmed
that it is
involved in
developing the
system, but
declined to
provide details
saying that it
would make an
announcement early
next year.
Well, what's
that book you're
looking at,
Fiverr?
Improving
Security and
Performance.
Improving
Security and
what?
Performance.
Yeah?
Are you going
to read that
whole thing?
No, I was just
flipping through it.
Okay.
Your microphone's
about a half
mile from your
face, so move
it up a little
closer.
There you go.
This one?
That's better.
No, that one.
No, this one.
Yeah.
That one?
This one says
on.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Oh, there's
another one over
there.
I didn't see
that one.
Yeah.
Okay.
There we go.
So what's new
with you?
Oh, boy.
The cab's on
strike?
Are they?
I don't know.
Well, you just
walked in.
It's 20 minutes
after the...
Oh, yeah.
I'm getting a
late start.
Are you on
central time again
or something?
Yeah.
Well, I'm
actually on
Pacific time.
Uh-huh.
Well, get a
glass of orange
juice or something
and a bunch of
frosted flakes or
whatever it is
that you start
the day with.
Yeah.
Let me continue
with some mail
here.
I just heard on
Off the Hook for
December 9th that
the virus supposedly
planted by pants
haggis is said...
Is it really
sheep guts?
What's that?
Last week you
told us that haggis
is about sheep guts.
It is.
It's sheep guts.
Why don't somebody
name themselves after
that?
I don't get it.
They like Scottish
food.
All right.
Whatever.
I mean, that's just
kind of bizarre.
But anyway, it's set to
go off on Christmas
Day of 1998, but in
the December archive
of www.hacked.net, it
is set on the page
text that it would
go off on Christmas
Day of 1997.
I don't know which
is true, but I would
like to call attention
to this and wonder
if this could be
verified on which
document is true.
Well, the thing is,
since the virus
doesn't really exist,
it doesn't really
matter what year
they put in there
because it's just
the year that it
doesn't happen.
Yeah.
But the text I see
says 1998.
Now, if there's
another version of
that floating around
somewhere, that says
1997, then either
somebody made a
clerical error, or
there's two viruses,
or who knows?
Who knows what
exactly it is?
Somebody pointed out
something interesting
to me a few days ago
about haggis, about
the person, not the
food.
Well, I thought it
was a group.
Is it?
Well, they keep
saying we.
Well, Pants and
Haggis are two people,
ain't they?
I thought it was
like two groups that
had a merger, you
know, like the
telegraph union type
thing.
So it's like all
the little guts?
I guess.
Got together or
something?
Yeah.
No, somebody
pointed out to me
that if you go into
Alta Vista and you
do a search, I don't
think it's only Alta
Vista, it's a couple
different search
engines.
Do a search for our
good buddy Eugene
Spafford at Purdue,
the anti-hacker security
buffoon guy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Actually, it's not on
his homepage anymore,
but it's still in a lot
of the search engines.
It says something like
owned by Haggis or
something.
Oh, really?
Yeah, something to
that effect.
And they never got
that out?
No, it's still in most
of the search engines
because they haven't
updated yet.
It says like Eugene
Spafford's homepage,
something Haggis.
That's one I'd like to
see.
Yeah.
I'd like to see that.
You missed our 700
Club expose.
700 Club?
700 Club did a whole
big thing on
electronic Armageddon
with multiple quotes
from our friend
Wynne Schwertow.
Apparently, he's going
to all parts of the
world preaching his
gospel.
Wasn't the 700 Club
like some old
anarchy group?
Pat Robertson.
Not anarchy.
Pat Robertson.
Oh, okay.
All right.
Big difference there.
All right.
Punk.
Anarchy.
These are Christian
broadcasting network
for God's sake.
Same thing.
All right.
It's finally started
to happen.
Remember, we've been
bitching about this
for weeks now,
about the new fees
for 800 numbers
that are being
passed along to us.
30 cents per call
from a pay phone
for some crazy reason.
Well, guess what?
It opens things up
now to all kinds
of fraud,
and there's nothing
anybody can do
about it.
That's right.
Because the pay phone
compensation scheme
makes no provision
for wrong numbers,
800 number operators
have to pay up.
Now, dispatch centers
across the country
already have reported
instances of mass
auto-dialing
from pay phones
to their 800 number
dispatch lines
since the compensation
scheme went into effect.
The calls are
recorded messages
that say,
what's that?
I'm sorry.
I must have dialed
a wrong number
and then disconnect.
Each call lasts
about five or six seconds
and blocks the dispatch
center's caller
identification systems,
which doesn't really
make much sense
because A&I
should be transmitted
instantly.
But regardless,
dispatch centers
believe that the calls
are being made
by pay phone
service providers
looking to cash in
on the surcharge.
Whoever this is,
they know what
they are doing.
Most long-distance
carriers bill
in six-second increments
and I guess on a bill
that wouldn't stand
out very much.
You know,
you wouldn't see
a whole lot of,
you'd see a lot
of little calls
but they'd all add up.
And plus,
they don't add
the 30-cent surcharge
into the bill usually.
Because, again,
because there's no
provision for wrong
numbers,
800 number people
have to pay
the 30 cents each time
and the petition,
the dispatching party
suggests that the FCC
make the calls
a minimum of 15 seconds
eliminating the wrong
number issue.
I don't know if that
really makes things
much better, though.
It's crazy.
I mean,
this is the kind of
thing that's going
to happen with
a stupid law like this
where you actually
have to pay extra
to make an 800 call
from a pay phone.
Is this going to apply
to 888 and 877 area codes?
Why do you think
one area code would get it
and another wouldn't?
It's for all toll-free.
It's not just, you know,
one.
Just double-checking.
Yeah, it's really
pretty silly.
Okay, here's a letter
we got about the GSM
cloning issue
that we talked about
last week.
Guys, I think you
made some erroneous
remarks in discussing
the GSM cloning hack
on the 12.9 episode
of Off the Hook.
I want the cliffhanger
ending.
I read the original
article in Risk Digest.
I think the authors
point out a significant
security hole.
This letter actually
is from Mr. Upsetter,
one of our writers.
This is not a roundabout
space-age hack
which requires probing
the SIM card,
as Fiber suggests.
The hack requires
a microwave receiver
and protocol analyzer
for monitoring the link
between the authentication
center and the base station
plus a SIM card emulator.
This equipment
is not terribly sophisticated,
but it is somewhat expensive.
$20,000, as mentioned.
But $20,000
is not that big
an investment
to get into the
GSM cloning business.
This particular hack
allows them to clone
any phone
given the IMSI,
which can be read
off the air
by monitoring
the GSM reverse channel.
The only real practical
problem with this hack
is storing the random
challenges and responses
in the phone
for later use.
Otherwise,
you're going to have
to lug around
all these receivers
and stuff
to make a clone call.
Any comments on this?
Yeah, actually,
that's not exactly true,
but I actually responded
to Mr. Upsetter
in brief.
Uh-huh.
And I told him
that I can't really
go into very many details,
but the thing
that was pointed out
in Risk's Digest
is a rather convoluted
and silly way
of doing something
that could be done
a lot cheaper
and easier.
And I just told him
that there are easier ways
to pluck a chicken.
Uh-huh.
Okay, well...
But, um...
Let's just...
I mean,
I still stand
by my original claim
that GSM
is, uh...
As of yet,
the most secure
wireless protocol
for wireless phones.
Um...
But, uh...
It does not require
$20,000
and Space Age hardware.
I still call it Space Age.
Do you know anybody
that has a microwave receiver?
Um...
To receive, uh...
Cellular broadcasts?
Do I have to answer that?
Well, whether you do or not,
the point is that
this isn't something
you go to Radio Shack
and buy.
No, no.
In fact,
don't go to Radio Shack
to buy that.
I mean, that's just like...
Now you've gotten me
started on Radio Shack again,
but, uh...
Yeah.
Let me tell you something, okay?
This Sprint PCS phone
is turning into
a real nightmare, okay?
I went to the website.
Now, I've got
the Samsung thing here, right?
I've got the Samsung phone.
Now, they told me
initially I get
all this talk time
and all this standby time
and all that kind of thing.
And then I didn't.
Then I brought it back
to them and said,
hey, you know,
I'm not getting
what, you know,
you said I'd get.
And they said,
well, that's because
we didn't say that.
So, okay,
I realized that
I'd sort of been,
you know,
bamboozled, I guess,
is the most polite word
I can use.
Run amok?
Then I went to the website
and I looked at the stats
for this phone.
And the regular battery
is supposed to have
a standby time of 24 hours
and the extended battery,
which I bought last week,
is supposed to have
a standby time of 60 hours.
Well, on the regular battery,
I get a total
of about six hours standby
and on the extended one,
I get 12.
So now, something is wrong.
I don't know.
I think this phone
is draining batteries.
Every battery I buy
has one quarter
of the amount of time
that it's supposed to have.
Now, I brought it into
another Radio Shack yesterday
and we all spent,
you know, a good hour
trying to figure this one out.
And we're in the middle
of doing tests right now.
And right now,
the results of the test
are that it's getting worse.
Is it possible Samsung
multiplied by 10
when they were...
I don't know what they...
No, I don't think so.
Because I called them
and they said that,
contrary to what
the first Radio Shack guy said,
if you're out of range,
it takes up more juice.
He actually said this.
He said,
it takes more juice
if you're out of range.
And so I'm out of range
where I am most of the time.
So, I mean,
it's silly to even,
you know,
tell people things like that.
Yeah, but when they tell you
how much talk time
and how much standby
they're supposed to give you
a best estimate.
Right.
Well, the thing is,
you know,
having it off all the time,
I'm out of range
like all the time.
Right.
Having it like that
all the time,
there's not going to be
any talk time.
Right.
So, the standby time
has to approximate,
has to get somewhat close to it.
Now, six hours
is nowhere close to 24 hours.
No.
And 12 hours
is nowhere close to 60 hours.
So, either I've got
two batteries here
that are completely,
like, dead and old
and all that kind of thing,
either I've got a bad charger
that doesn't know
how to charge a battery,
or I have a phone
that is simply,
you know,
draining the battery
like nobody's business.
Do you have more
than one charger?
Like, is there a quick charger?
There's, yeah,
there's actually two different,
it's in the same piece.
Right.
You can even stick the phone
in like a quick charge thing,
which I did last week
and then found out
it wasn't charged at all.
Yeah.
You know,
contrary to their instructions,
I left it on overnight.
You know,
I mean,
that is what they say to do.
And I took it
and it wasn't charged at all.
So, I'm beginning to suspect
something's wrong with that.
Yeah,
it sounds like possibly
your charger is damaged.
Yeah,
that's a possibility.
Although,
when I took it in yesterday,
they looked at the battery
and said,
yeah,
it's fully charged.
Really?
Yeah.
So, I don't know.
You know,
this is like,
you know,
this is a medical mystery here
trying to figure this one out.
So, anyway,
that's where I stand.
But don't mention Radio Shack anymore.
Okay.
They don't ask you
for your address anymore,
though.
They don't ask me if I'm...
No, really?
Well, they didn't ask me.
Maybe it was the look in my eyes.
But, you know,
I went to another place,
right?
I went to another place
to get something else,
right?
I'll tell you what I was going to get.
I wanted to get one of those,
you know,
CD spinning racks.
You ever see those things?
CD spinning racks?
Yeah, they spin.
You know,
you put your CDs in them,
there's four sides,
and you spin them around.
Oh, the little carousel things.
Yeah, the carousel things.
I wanted to get one
that holds 400,
like the one I already have,
because I have more
than 400 CDs.
I have more like 800 CDs,
so I figured I'd get two of them.
They don't make them anymore.
They don't make...
They only make 300.
They don't make 400.
Are they stackable?
No.
They're not stackable.
I wish they were.
You get these little
tiny things now.
Now, I can't imagine,
unless some idiot did something
and got killed
with one of these 400s,
why they don't make
these things anymore?
Maybe it like fell
on top of them or something.
That's the only thing
I can think of.
And the reason I say that
is because when I was putting
all my CDs into the 300,
as soon as I got
the very last one
into the first,
the first, you know, side,
the whole thing fell down
because it was top heavy.
And it just toppled right over.
So maybe 400 of them
will kill you
and 300 will just hurt you
a little bit.
Maybe that's why
they don't make
the 400 anymore.
If anyone knows
there's a 400,
please let me know
because I'd like to know.
But anyway,
when I went to this place
to buy this thing,
they asked me right away
for my phone number.
And of course,
you know,
being a smart aleck,
I don't like to give
my phone number out
so I gave them
a fake number.
Imagine my surprise
when they addressed me
by name.
From the fake number?
Yeah.
Apparently,
I gave out the same
fake number
I gave last time.
What do you think
the odds of that are?
I've gotten really,
really predictable here.
So either that
or they've got some power
that I don't really
want to know
what they have.
Okay.
Two more letters here
then we have
a special guest.
And we'll take
some phone calls too
from all around
the world hopefully.
Letter number one,
I was going to tell you
all to be careful
because I heard
some stuff
so don't do anything
that you all
could get in trouble for.
What?
It's a letter.
Here it is.
It's a real letter.
It's a real letter.
And I think we should
heed that.
Wow.
Yeah.
There might be
something hidden in there.
It might be a valuable clue.
I was going to tell you
all to be careful
because I heard
some stuff
so don't do anything
that you all
could get in trouble for.
Heard some stuff.
Yeah.
Wow.
And he was going
to tell us
but he's not telling us.
I don't know.
You think maybe he can't?
He's prevented from telling us?
Maybe that's possible.
He might be in trouble.
Wow.
Might have to help him.
And second letter
which came in
came in shortly before
the first one actually.
The time has come
for us to band together.
Register with the first order
and be saved.
Only the chosen
will survive the millennium.
So I've already registered.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
We've talked about this
briefly
over the past
couple of weeks.
Two University
of Pittsburgh
computer science majors
were abruptly
barred from accessing
the net
by campus officials.
Physically banned
from all the college's
computing labs.
ordered not to contact
the staff member
who shut down
their access
and threatened
with expulsion
their offense.
Building a free
online resource
for those
on the cutting edge
of computer security issues
according to the students.
Now we have
one of them here.
Which one are you
by the way?
I'm JP.
You're JP.
Okay.
I don't see which
you're the first one there,
right?
The first one.
Okay.
Got it.
Tell us in your own words
first of all
what kind of site was this?
It's called Anti-Online.
Anti-Online was called.
I brought it up
my 10th grade year
of high school.
I started it
and it kind of developed
from there
where basically
we would go out
and at first
what we do
is gather exploits
other people
had already found
and then find patches
other people
had already found
and put them together
with a description
for users.
Okay.
A small site
when we first started
we run off
like a 5 meg
shell account
I had from an ISP.
Mm-hmm.
Then other students
from what turned out
to be across the world
started getting
interested in it as well.
Mm-hmm.
And it kind of grew
to the point
where we actually started
as we learned more
as our education progressed
where we were actually
developing our own exploits
and our own fixes
for exploits
that were already
found by others.
Mm-hmm.
So I graduated
from high school
decided to go
to the University
of Pittsburgh
and all of the dorm rooms
in the university
have Ethernet connections
right in the dorm room.
This is the Homo Cert, right?
10BaseT.
Homo Cert is actually CMU
but it's part of a collaboration.
Okay.
10BaseT
we have what they call
an acceptable use agreement
we had to sign
staying what you're allowed
what you can and can't do
so I signed that
and one of the things on it
said that if you run a server
you're responsible
for its content.
So that just triggered my mind
wow I can run
anti-online now from here
locally.
I can put more content up
I'll have more space
I can run my own servers
configure them
more interactive content
work on some of the newer things
to hitting the internet
where I don't have to count on ISP.
So I brought it up
got it running
a ton of students
working on it
from around the world
really filling in information
and things
and started getting
really popular
to the tune of
500,000 hits
in a matter of 20 days
when it was first brought up
wow
which to me
was wow too
Were these mostly students
that are hitting it
or are we talking about
security professionals now?
Everyone from
the treasury department
people working on that
people from NASA
military
officials from CERT
all the same people
that visit our website
probably the same group
have nothing better to do
than cruise the web
all day long
so did you get
lots of emails
lots of emails
we were getting
a few hundred emails
a week
from people
with questions
and things
and what did you get
out of this
besides the satisfaction
of knowing
that was basically it
it's what I'm
planning on majoring in
a self-designed major
in computer security
from internet technology
and so we were
working on that
and one night
we saw that our hits
went down to zero
we got no hits
like over several hours
that's a trend
yeah
so I immediately
thought well
someone
some smart was doing
some DOS attack
on us
let's bring down
the security site
had you been
attacked before?
yeah hundreds of times
smart attacks
win nuke
SS pings
things like that
that we've
had been patched
against
so we worked
all night
reinstalling
TCP IP
and checking
server configurations
and things
and next morning
we have an
audit system
at the university
oh that's nice
yeah
we got a message
from the head
of residential
networking
saying that he
had disconnected
our internet
access
and had filed
student judicial
charges against us
and that was a
Sunday morning
around 5 o'clock
a.m.
you couldn't see
that you weren't
actually connected
to the net
at all?
well I thought
it was a DOS
attack at first
I thought my
TCP had become
corrupted or
something like that
so we were
working and I got
that
so it never
crossed your mind
that the university
would just shut it
down
we got no call
it happened
5 o'clock
in the morning
on a Saturday
which seems to me
off business hours
well some crusty
old technician
must have gotten
around to it
just about that time
about that time
yeah
so when I found
that out
I tried to get
in contact with him
he was unavailable
so I moved
the site
did some
change where the
domain name
pointed to
an ISP
and put up
information about
what had happened
to us
and also the
email of the
admin who
filed charges
against us
start like a
basically like a
letter writing
campaign was my
goal
right
and next week
instead of hearing
from him
describing why
we were charged
because I was
still confused
in why we'd
been charged
in the first
place
I hear that
more charges
have been filed
against us
for harassing
the administrator
I got no
contact order
put against me
saying I can't
talk to the
administrator
or if anyone
else on the
internet contacts
him regarding
my site
I could face
expulsion from
the university
so he must have
been getting a lot
of mail
he got a lot
of mail
so that's
where it's
are you allowed
to give the
guy's name
it's Lee
Bannister
I guess you
are
okay
yes
Lee Bannister
all right
once again
Lee Bannister
that's in the
archives
it's at the
University of
Pittsburgh
University of
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
Pennsylvania
okay
15213
right
so we
started
but you
reached an
agreement
basically
basically
eventually
this
wired
story
here
and it
says
everything
ended
happily
right
tell us
about the
agreement
the
agreement
said
they said
the reasons
my site
was shut
down
was not
because
of content
they worried
about
bandwidth
that's
official
university
position
so I
agreed that
I'll limit
the number
of simultaneous
connections
our server
will get
the number
of people
that can
view my page
at the
same time
I'll limit
that
it was at
250
I agreed
to limit
all the
way down
to 50
simultaneous
okay
what kind
of bandwidth
would you
need for
something like
that
it would be
very little
bandwidth
for something
like that
right
it was
running off
of ISP
that had
a 56k
dial-up
at one
point
we're just
talking about
a website
here
just a
website
right
there's
no streaming
data
right
you just
get something
and you're
not there
anymore
so I
agreed to
that
and they
also
worried
that
Anteline.com
pointed
to my
computer
they said
the .com
nomenclature
kind of
said
it's a
commercial
site
and that's
banned
although we
never did
ask for
money
or have
advertisers
or anything
like that
so I
went out
to InterNIC
and paid
the 100
bucks
and registered
at
Anteline.org
so I was
going through
the process
of getting
the domain
name system
worked out
and everything
and bringing
the web
page back
up
and another
part of the
agreement was
that I would
talk to a
university
spokesperson
who would
help me
with the
technical
aspects of
doing the
domain name
system
I hope
this is a
lesson
that communication
is important
that once you
talk to people
they'll work
something out
and everything
will work out
nicely
these people
are not
some sort
of alien race
they're human
beings just
like us
it all ended
happily
that's what
I thought
until I got
down there
sat down
in the room
secretary
asked me
if I wanted
something to
drink
made me
a little
comfortable
shut the
door
salt of the
earth
she says
I see you
have
Anteline.org
pointed to
your computer
now
you can't
have that
there's nothing
left
I said
that was
the agreement
this was made
by the
provost of
the university
I don't
know
provost of
the university
agreed to
allow the
.org
he's
head of
education
for the
university
agreed to
it
and she
said
if they
said that
she wasn't
aware that
they said
that
and if
they did
it's because
they didn't
know what
they were
talking
about
and I
would
not
bring
that
domain
back
up
so it
was
kind of
a nice
sudden
shift
in
mood
what did
they expect
you to
do
they
expected me
to use
a signed
domain
that the
university
assigned to
me
we all
have static
IPs
and static
domains
so the
anti-online
address now
they said
should be
jpvst7.j.resnet.pit.edu
that should be the address
I should use for
anti-online
that is easy
that is easy to
remember
I'll say
that
see
you got
memorized
already
they said
that's the
address
I should
use
they said
I said
okay
I'm not
going to
discuss that
right now
I'd have
to talk
to
a representative
would you
not be
able to
simply
have
the
anti-online.org
page
have a link
to that
crazy thing
you just
said
that's not
the point
the main
point is
that we
had an
agreement
it was
a binding
agreement
I made
up to my
end of the
agreement
I expected
the university
to make up
to their
end
and to
top this
off
I said
alright
let's
talk about
bandwidth
now
I made
my
proposal
to
limit
50
connections
and she
told me
she says
bandwidth
was never
a concern
she says
Ken Service
who's a
university
spokesman
she says
probably told
that to me
because he
had to tell
them something
and that's
what he
came up
with
well why
didn't you
just tell
them the
truth
oh well
that's
a good
question
originally
they wanted
me to
sign a
gag order
saying I
wouldn't
talk to
the press
at all
after
we did
this
and I
take it
you didn't
sign that
well your
presence here
would testify
to that
so they're
saying that
you can use
unlimited
bandwidth
but you
just can't
use the
anti-online.org
right
can't use
.org
and they
don't want
now here's
again
tricky language
they don't
want me
to provide
free access
to university
resources
to non-university
personnel
which could be
translated
that could
basically mean
that no one
outside the
university
could hit
my webpage
using that
language
that's
certainly
true
so at
first I
would never
thought of
it that
way
but now
I mean
I have
to look
at every
possible
wording
so I
decided that
I was
going to
since I
kept up
with mine
I was
going to
make up
the university
keep up
with their
end of the
agreement
and I
pointed .org
to my
machine
was this
in writing
I pointed
it to my
machine
anyways
and I
got a
call
and letters
slid under
my door
within a
few hours
saying they
wanted to
meet with
me
immediately
and I
told them
I'd be
unavailable
until after
Christmas
vacation
and that's
where things
stand now
is the
site still
up
it's down
not just
because of
technical
problems
but yeah
it is
it will
be up
and that's
www.anti-online.org
where does .com
go now
.com is still
on an
external ISP
that just
points to
the .org
page
ok
wow
now for
some reason
and we're
going to
start taking
phone calls
212-279-3400
country code
1 if you're
outside the
United States
for some
reason
this case
and I think
it's very
interesting
it's the
kind of
thing that
we've talked
about in
the past
but Wired
EFF
they've all
jumped on
this
what is
the magic
quality
that gets
their
attention
we have
to find
this out
Wired
USA Today
Village Voice
New York
Times
Washington Post
I think
what it is
again
it's happened
in the
governmental
phase
we get
to the
point
where
technology
has
progressed
faster
than
our
society
has been
able to
deal
with it
they're
trying
the university
is trying
to apply
laws
to what
I'm
doing
in a way
which they
were never
meant to be
applied
they have
no rules
in place
to deal
with the
type of
things
that I
was doing
just like
the government
on a larger
scale
doesn't have
the type
of rules
or laws
in place
to deal
with things
so they're
using
obscure
ways of
applying
older laws
to current
technology
interesting
well
there certainly
has been
a lot
of
attention
drawn
to
this
and
I
imagine
we'll
be hearing
a lot
more
when the
new
year
starts
you find
out
what
happens
but
your
service
has not
been
cut off
no
service
has not
been
cut off
and they
did
offer
to
reimburse
me
the
hundred
dollars
I
had
to
spend
because
of
the
misunderstanding
about
the
dot org
nomenclature
I mean
how does
this hurt
them
what do you
think the
real reason
is behind
this
what are
they upset
about
bandwidth
I
honestly
I've still
never been
told how
the original
charges
I had
like 13
of them
filed
against
me
how any
of them
related
to the
site
still yet
to receive
and I
still am
barred from
talking to
the administrator
who filed
the charges
do you think
it's some
sort of
anti-hacker
type thing
they think
you're
running
a hacker
site
I
honestly
don't
know
they keep
saying
it's not
because
of
content
but yet
every
it's not
content
what is
it
I don't
know
but hopefully
we'll get
an answer
from them
at some
point
JP from
anti-online.org
now
we wish you
the best
of luck
and if
any callers
have any
questions
you'll be
here to
answer them
as well
let's go
to our
first phone
call
good evening
you're on
the air
where are you
calling from
New York
City
New York
City
well we're
getting out
tonight
aren't we
well you must
recognize my
voice
yes I do
that's why I'm
going on to
the next
phone call
good evening
you're on
the air
hi
great show
how you doing
great show
listen I just
wanted to tell
you guys that
ASDL is
available in
area code
212
ASDL or
ADSL
ADSL I'm
dyslexic I'm
sorry
that's okay
I always do
that
where is it
available
it's from
UUNet in
area code
212 in
Manhattan
it's available
right now
yes it is
even as we
speak it's
available
as we speak
and I just
saw them
they were
by the way
they were
there at
the convention
yes they
were
they certainly
were
and I spoke
to them
because I
didn't believe
what I read
in my network
world that they
had it working
but they do
Farber you got
that hat ready
yeah what I'd like
to know is which
central offices
support it like
two
no a lot more
than that they
said they have
almost full
coverage of
Manhattan
this is
do you know
anything about
pricing
yeah it's
cheap
I think it
was a flat
rate of $40
for residential
you know
and then they
were talking
about that
residential and
business is the
same and
you know
any word on
the kind of
bandwidth they
support
well they
say that
they're going
to be increasing
it every month
but supposedly
it's going to
be
it's called
UNET's
preferred
access 128
service
based on the
ascend
communications
i.e.
DSL equipment
I hope it's
going faster
than 128
yes it has
to be
it says it
creates a 128
k bit per
second connection
over copper
wiring but
much faster
is available
than that
okay well we
will look into
this
yeah well I've
been dying for
you guys to
check it out
and test it
and see what
the bugs are
because this is
the first one
in our area
you know they've
had it in
Ottawa and
everywhere
do you know if
this is restricted
to like only
certain buildings
or
no no
uh-uh
Bell Atlantic
will do that
and Pac Bell
did that
and everybody
else did that
but no that's
why it's the
only one that's
up and running
GTE is going
to come in
with one
SBC and
Pacific Bell
are doing
one and
GTE
oh I said
that everybody's
jumping in
but the big
boys like
Bell Atlantic
are screwing
me
is holding
under their
ISDN line
so they're not
ready till
after June
and then you
have to be at
least
before
at least
less than
1800 meters
from the
switch
which you know
you have to do
by reflectometer
and if
you're one
meter over
you're lost
or if
you've got
1800 to
the door
and you live
on the
8th floor
you're lost
you know
that is a
problem
yeah
so that's
something
we're going
to look
into this
and report
back to people
please do
and report
it for us
okay
thanks for
calling
okay bye
you think
that's real
fiber
well if
it's available
I'll order
it
somehow
I doubt
when I call
Bell Atlantic
they're going
to have any
idea what
I'm talking
about
well let's
speak to
UUNET
and see
what they
have
well yeah
but ultimately
the line
has to be
put in
by the local
phone company
yes but if
UUNET
is providing
the service
they'll be
able to
handle that
aspect of
it probably
yeah well
we shall see
save us the
grief of dealing
with Bell Atlantic
yeah
that'd be
something
you run a
website like
yours
from your
house
lots of
bandwidth
very cheap
40 bucks
that's the
kind of thing
that we're
after
and they've
been doing
it in Canada
for a little
while
they've been
doing some
testing there
but nothing
here yet
nothing nearby
but we knew
it was coming
good evening
you're on the
air
this is
Bell Atlantic
no it's
not
don't even
sound like
James Earl
Jones
good evening
you're on
the air
speak up
yes it's
you
you're on
the air
oh that was
your moment
all right
let's go to
another phone
call
good evening
you're on
the air
hello
yes where
are you
calling from
Syracuse
New York
Syracuse
315
area code
yes correct
all right
so what's
what's going
on up there
not too much
I just wanted
to talk to you
about the
Sprint PCS
I have Sprint
PCS and I
have the
Qualcomm phone
is that the
dual mode
phone
no I didn't
want the
dual mode
to me it
wasn't worth
the extra
50 bucks
I agree with
you actually
I would not
want to use
analog under
any circumstances
yeah
that's exactly
the way I
feel but
my battery
I really
haven't had
any problems
with it
they say
standby times
about 48
hours and
now I
haven't tested
that fully
but the
talk time
is well
over
what they
say it
is I
believe they
say two
hours straight
yeah
well the
thing is
you've got
a different
kind of
phone
if you
had the
same kind
of phone
as me
then I'd
be able
to compare
but I've
got the
Samsung
real cheapo
model thing
yeah yeah I
noticed that
also I was
wondering if
you guys
heard about
you noticed
that
it's an
okay phone
it's alright
except it
doesn't work
very well
go ahead
I was
wondering if
you heard
about the
kid in
Syracuse
from Syracuse
University
who had
the mp3s
of Pearl Jam
on his
website
and was
called by
the record
company to
take them
down
it wasn't
the band
itself that
showed up
at his
house
no no
4 in
the morning
killed his
cat
that was
just a
rumor
I don't
know exactly
but up
here in
Syracuse we
also have
residential
networking
and he
got contacted
by the
head of it
today about
his bandwidth
that he was
using and I
don't know
really
yeah it was
interesting that
you guys had a
story about
that you know
tonight that
same sort of
thing
this kind of
thing happens
all the time
when schools
are involved
they invoke
all kinds of
prehistoric laws
and rules
that they
just quote
or make up
on the spot
oh yeah
yeah
I also
I sent you
guys an
email this
week I'm
not sure
if you
got it
but it
was about
the same
thing only
I didn't
mention any
names but
now that it's
a big media
extravaganza
I guess I
mean this
kid had a
TV crew in
his room
today
I sent you
an email
about it
you know
saying that
he didn't
want to
use any
names
but I'm
sure you
got it
now
but Epic
called him
and so
I'm sure
we'll hear
more about
that
yeah
yeah
and I
love the
show
well thanks
for calling
thanks for
listening
how's the
signal coming
in up there
it's coming
in pretty
good
I actually
you know
I have my
thing turned
down now
so I can't
hear it
but it's
coming in
pretty well
cool
okay well
keep listening
and we'll
talk to you
again sometime
alright
thanks
we just
got a
quote
actually
sent to
my
Omnipoint
email
I guess
this comes
from one
of the IRC
channels
and it
quotes a
previous show
of ours
you know
when your
words come
back to haunt
you Fiber
yeah
well these
are your
words
if it is
available
I will
eat my
hat
I'm aware
of that
yeah
okay well
it's here
in black
and white
on the phone
now
in case
you need
to see
it
oh as
soon
as
somebody
proves
to me
it's
available
I'll
eat
my
hat
right
but you
well then
I'm safe
aren't I
I don't
think
you're
going to
get out
of it
that easily
no
I don't
think
I think
you'll
have to
eat
whatever
hat
you have
at the
moment
212-279-3400
is our
telephone number
I'd like to get
an update
from the
Real Audio
people
see how many
people are out
there
how many
listeners
what countries
they're from
we only have
a couple
of minutes
so please
send that
real fast
we are using
Real Audio
5-0 now
we've cut over
to that
completely
and that's
we don't
support anything
below that
now
you just
have to
download it
it works
on all
platforms
so if
you're
listening
on Real Audio
you probably
know that
now anyway
good evening
you're on the air
hello
yes where are you
calling from
Harrisonburg Virginia
all right
how you doing
out there
well I was
listening to you
on the net
first
and you
opened the
Florida Call
so I decided
I'd actually
give it a try
I'm surprised
I actually got
through
it happens
to everybody
eventually
you know
it is pretty
neat
yeah
well I'm
a computer
science major
at James
Madison
University
here in
Virginia
and
my main
concern
is
are
are any
individuals
that are
actually
pursuing
computer
security
as
a
employment
opportunity
are they
going to be
harassed
or
put in
the same
situation
as this
individual
from
Pittsburgh
I mean
a lot of
things depend
on who
you run
into
who you
get angry
it's
certainly
possible
sure
because
if
if
your
only
interest
is
such
an
avenue
are
you
thereby
limited
by the
university
or its
curriculum
so you have
to understand
the people
making the
policy
are the
people
that
understand
it
the
least
exactly
and when
that happens
you have
all kinds
of miscarriage
I have a
60 year old
guy defining
what my
curriculum
is
as far as
what I'm
going to
learn
but it
doesn't teach
me anything
I want to
know
right
someone
probably
doesn't
even use
the
internet
and yet
is telling
you how
to use
it
you know
has no
conception
of what's
real
what's
not real
what is
taken
seriously
and what
isn't
so yeah
there's a lot
of bad
things going
on as a
result of
that
well I
thought I'd
just comment
on that
alright
well thanks
for calling
good to hear
thank you
it was
nice to
talk to
you
and we
are out
of time
it's
currently
about time
for us
to go
JP
I wish you
the best
of luck
with the
struggle
ahead
and keep
us updated
as far as
what they
do next
you know
whatever that
might be
and the
holidays
usually
colleges
move against
people when
nobody's around
so that's
that's a time
to be wary
alright we'll be
back again next
week
say goodnight
Fiber
goodnight
Fiber
alright
we'll see you
in one week
for another
edition of
Off the Hook
stay tuned
for Arab
Voices
coming up
on WBAI
New York
goodnight
the telephone
keeps ringing
so I ripped
it up
the wall
I cut
myself
while shaving
now I can't
make the cost
it couldn't
get much worse
but if it could
they would
one big one
for the best
expect
the worst
I hope
that's understood
one big one
go
then
lastly
go
We'll be right back.
Saturday afternoons.