Off The Hook - 1998-03-03

[00:03.920 --> 00:09.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, put the kids to bed early, get some pig feet and a bottle of gin, and we're going to hear the blues.
[00:09.600 --> 00:19.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: There'll be an exciting mix of Bessie Smith's music and tales of her life on the road, plus an exclusive interview with Coco Taylor, and as much good women's blues as I can find.
[00:19.540 --> 00:25.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the Women's Weekend Blues Special, Gut Bucket Women, Saturday night, March 7th, from 9.30 p.m.
[00:25.740 --> 00:26.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: to 11 p.m.
[00:26.700 --> 00:30.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Here on WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[00:44.360 --> 00:50.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where the time is just about 8 o'clock.
[00:50.540 --> 00:53.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:00.190 --> 01:04.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:05.510 --> 01:09.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:10.930 --> 01:12.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's turning yet much worse,
[01:18.790 --> 01:20.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: I hope that's understood.
[01:20.890 --> 01:21.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I'm making it more!
[03:52.240 --> 03:54.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[03:54.080 --> 03:55.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: The program is Off the Hook.
[03:56.860 --> 03:58.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: And everything's broken.
[03:59.260 --> 03:59.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everything's broken.
[04:00.500 --> 04:07.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you're listening on the net tonight, well, you're doing something that I think is impossible, because MCI is broken.
[04:07.420 --> 04:12.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's right, the entire MCI network is down in the area.
[04:13.400 --> 04:17.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's no net connectivity, because guess who we get our net connectivity from?
[04:17.480 --> 04:19.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's pretty bad.
[04:21.040 --> 04:23.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's, you know, these headphones aren't working either.
[04:24.080 --> 04:30.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: I just realized why they're not going to work, because we use delay, and delay is going to just confuse everybody.
[04:30.000 --> 04:33.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the headphones that I was supposed to be using fell apart in my hands only a moment ago.
[04:34.860 --> 04:35.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what?
[04:35.480 --> 04:36.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to push this button until it happens.
[04:38.140 --> 04:45.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because sometimes unpredictable things occur, and you just don't know why.
[04:48.410 --> 04:48.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: There.
[04:49.890 --> 04:52.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: I pushed the button, and I think things are working fine now.
[04:52.730 --> 04:57.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is Off the Hook, where we talk about things that break, and sometimes break other things live on the air.
[04:58.610 --> 04:59.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have Bernie S.
[04:59.530 --> 05:00.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: with us, live from Philadelphia.
[05:00.530 --> 05:00.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie, are you there?
[05:01.510 --> 05:01.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[05:02.070 --> 05:02.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: How you doing?
[05:02.910 --> 05:03.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Real good.
[05:03.450 --> 05:04.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's good to know.
[05:04.750 --> 05:05.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been...
[05:05.470 --> 05:07.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: You may not know this, to look at me, certainly.
[05:08.170 --> 05:15.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: You might be able to tell from the crazed sound of my voice that I've been going through a war.
[05:15.710 --> 05:20.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a war, a battle, a fight, a struggle, a people's action, if you will.
[05:22.910 --> 05:35.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the kind of thing that, in these civilized times, you no longer need to go out and, you know, hit people and throw things and be hit and thrown at yourself.
[05:35.690 --> 05:39.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: It can happen all in the comfort of your own living room, or whatever room you choose to use.
[05:40.030 --> 05:41.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about the Internet, of course.
[05:41.790 --> 05:46.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the Internet has brought war home to us in ways that we could never imagine.
[05:47.130 --> 05:54.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure the founding fathers of the Internet would be turning over in their graves, or wherever it is they're lying, if they knew the kinds of things that were happening today.
[05:55.750 --> 05:56.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[05:57.550 --> 05:58.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: IRC, Internet Relay Chat.
[05:59.110 --> 06:00.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie, you're familiar with it, right?
[06:00.930 --> 06:02.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, I don't use it myself.
[06:02.950 --> 06:05.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you're wise not to.
[06:05.830 --> 06:08.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very familiar with it.
[06:08.250 --> 06:10.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, people get involved in all kinds of actions.
[06:10.830 --> 06:15.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we've had this little struggle going on for a while now.
[06:15.310 --> 06:18.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have our own channel, which we call the 2600 channel.
[06:19.310 --> 06:32.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, the way it works is, if you're on a UNIX system, you're on any kind of system, really, that's hooked up to the Internet, including Windows 95, you can get into IRC and start talking to people all over the world on different networks.
[06:32.150 --> 06:34.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: The biggest one is Fnet, E-F-N-E-T.
[06:35.050 --> 06:38.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's also DownNet, UnderNet, various other things that aren't quite as big.
[06:38.590 --> 06:40.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: But by default, you wind up on Fnet.
[06:40.790 --> 06:45.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: And in there, the pound 2600 channel, the pound is what you put in front of every channel.
[06:45.470 --> 06:48.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: So they all have that little specification.
[06:49.050 --> 06:51.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Used to be the plus sign for those old-timers out there.
[06:51.130 --> 06:51.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Used to be plus.
[06:51.930 --> 06:54.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's how you know you've been around too long, if you can remember those days.
[06:55.250 --> 06:59.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the pound 2600 channel is sort of the place where we hang out.
[06:59.730 --> 07:06.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, talk about the magazine, the radio show, hacking in general, just, you know, various other things.
[07:06.390 --> 07:12.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: Although, there are people now that are in the channel that think that they're in there because it has nothing to do with 2600.
[07:12.970 --> 07:14.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: They just happen to like the number.
[07:15.190 --> 07:16.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not kidding.
[07:16.390 --> 07:17.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard this from people.
[07:17.710 --> 07:19.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, it's got nothing to do with 2600.
[07:20.070 --> 07:24.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or the Atari 2600, which a few people seem to think it's got something to do with.
[07:24.430 --> 07:25.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: We just like the number.
[07:26.250 --> 07:27.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are they numerologists?
[07:27.450 --> 07:28.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[07:28.770 --> 07:30.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've never quite pursued that kind of logic.
[07:30.730 --> 07:32.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe one day I'll have the time to do that.
[07:32.670 --> 07:33.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's the other thing about the net.
[07:33.970 --> 07:35.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: You talk to everybody.
[07:35.630 --> 07:38.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody has their own little theories as to how things work.
[07:38.510 --> 07:39.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, everyone has an equal say.
[07:39.910 --> 07:41.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's great.
[07:41.190 --> 07:42.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I believe in.
[07:42.270 --> 07:46.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: I believe in people being able to say whatever it is is on their mind.
[07:46.410 --> 07:48.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you should see some of the things people say.
[07:48.330 --> 07:51.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, things we can never say on the radio.
[07:51.750 --> 07:53.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why we can't say them on the radio.
[07:53.370 --> 07:56.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's just the way the FCC has deemed it.
[07:56.110 --> 07:58.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: We can't say certain things or even speak of certain things.
[07:59.570 --> 08:01.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: On IRC, though, anything goes.
[08:01.810 --> 08:06.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is unless somebody decides to take control.
[08:07.050 --> 08:09.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, on IRC, you have certain modes.
[08:09.670 --> 08:13.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess the most important mode there is is ops.
[08:13.850 --> 08:14.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[08:14.290 --> 08:16.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: That gives you an operator status.
[08:16.830 --> 08:19.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: You get a little at sign in front of your nickname.
[08:19.130 --> 08:20.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that means that you're an operator in that channel.
[08:20.910 --> 08:29.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when you're an operator, you can do all kinds of neat things like, you know, kick people off the channel or set the topic unless the topic is set to be switched by anybody.
[08:29.890 --> 08:35.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can do all kinds of other things, too, like change the modes of the channel, make it invite only so you have to be invited in to get in.
[08:35.870 --> 08:41.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Make it so that only people with operator status or who have been given permission can speak.
[08:41.550 --> 08:45.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, ops status is what everybody tries to achieve.
[08:46.390 --> 08:49.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Some of us will go our whole lives without getting ops once.
[08:49.930 --> 08:55.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Other people were born into it as sort of, you know, a royal family kind of a thing.
[08:56.870 --> 09:02.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, occasionally this happens, especially when you print articles in the magazine, you know, about taking over channels.
[09:03.190 --> 09:05.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, people tend to sort of take over channels and do things like that.
[09:06.090 --> 09:08.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's sort of what happened.
[09:08.390 --> 09:14.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, uh, this, this one person, I don't want to get into names or personalities, things like that.
[09:14.310 --> 09:17.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, we'll just, um, this one person, let's, let's call him Adolf.
[09:18.350 --> 09:20.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just, you know, it's a good name.
[09:20.630 --> 09:25.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, this, this person decided that, uh, they were going to run things their way.
[09:25.490 --> 09:32.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: And only people that agreed with that person would be allowed to, uh, you know, to have any kind of say in policy whatsoever.
[09:32.170 --> 09:38.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody else was kind of like, you know, uh, the, the, the, the serfs, the trotaparn, the people that didn't really count for much.
[09:39.970 --> 09:48.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: And these people kind of, kind of got upset, you know, slowly at first, but more and more as time went on.
[09:48.430 --> 09:51.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: And yesterday, I decided to cause some trouble.
[09:51.890 --> 09:54.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, I haven't caused trouble in a while.
[09:54.170 --> 09:54.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, real trouble.
[09:55.170 --> 09:57.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the trouble where, like, cops get called and things like that.
[09:57.990 --> 09:59.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, you know what I'm talking about, right, Bernie?
[10:00.690 --> 10:01.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: All too well.
[10:01.410 --> 10:01.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[10:01.790 --> 10:08.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, now, this, I decided to, to, to use kind of the same techniques that I would use if I was causing trouble in real life.
[10:09.070 --> 10:12.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, the first thing you do when you want to cause trouble, you conspire.
[10:13.130 --> 10:17.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: You bring people together from various, you know, factions.
[10:17.650 --> 10:18.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you unite them.
[10:18.890 --> 10:21.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: You conspire with them against the common enemy.
[10:22.350 --> 10:27.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, I, I kind of talked to all these different people that had their own little, uh, you know, problems.
[10:27.990 --> 10:32.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: But the way things were being run, you know, uh, they, they felt afraid to speak out.
[10:32.490 --> 10:35.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: They felt like if they criticized, they'd be punished in some way.
[10:35.550 --> 10:37.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: And their family would be hunted down and shot like dogs.
[10:38.270 --> 10:41.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, to be honest, I don't really know any place that shoots dogs, but it's a term.
[10:42.570 --> 10:44.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, anyway, no, I, I don't need headphones.
[10:46.290 --> 10:48.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: This guy went to Brooklyn to get me headphones.
[10:48.230 --> 10:48.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, I don't need headphones.
[10:49.030 --> 10:49.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm fine.
[10:49.650 --> 10:52.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I'm surviving with what I got taped to my head right now.
[10:54.070 --> 10:55.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, we conspired.
[10:55.590 --> 10:58.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we said, look, we can take this channel back.
[10:58.390 --> 11:00.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: We just have to want to do it.
[11:00.810 --> 11:07.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, we decided, we went in there in the channel and we started talking, you know, we started, you know, criticizing the people in charge.
[11:07.150 --> 11:08.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: In a democracy, you should be able to do that.
[11:08.750 --> 11:10.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: You should be able to, you know, openly criticize.
[11:10.870 --> 11:14.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, the people in charge didn't like this.
[11:14.410 --> 11:15.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it didn't stop us anyway.
[11:15.710 --> 11:20.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: We decided to just keep talking and keep criticizing and keep saying, hey, you know, we want it to be this way.
[11:20.830 --> 11:23.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who are you to take charge in this fashion?
[11:23.730 --> 11:34.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you could tell, you know, they didn't want to get, you know, really too pushy about, you know, taking, taking the power of speech away from us.
[11:34.450 --> 11:35.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's what they wanted to do.
[11:35.910 --> 11:37.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what anybody in charge wants to do.
[11:37.390 --> 11:40.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't like people standing up and saying what's on their minds.
[11:41.470 --> 11:44.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, we decided, let's organize a little rally.
[11:44.850 --> 11:45.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's never been done before.
[11:46.170 --> 11:47.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: On IRC, on the Internet.
[11:47.590 --> 11:50.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to have a rally right here at whatever time we decided to do it.
[11:50.990 --> 11:52.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was the next hour that came.
[11:53.110 --> 11:57.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, we started getting in touch with people all over the net, you know, saying, hey, come into this channel at this time.
[11:57.770 --> 11:59.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to have a protest rally in March.
[12:00.650 --> 12:03.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know how we were going to march, but we said we were going to do it.
[12:03.170 --> 12:06.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the time came, and all these people were in the channel.
[12:06.610 --> 12:08.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: We had about, I guess, 70 people in the channel at that point.
[12:09.370 --> 12:11.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we just started, you know, chanting.
[12:12.430 --> 12:16.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: We started chanting on the Internet, basically saying free the channel over and over and over again.
[12:16.930 --> 12:18.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: You had about 20 people doing this.
[12:19.030 --> 12:28.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And sure enough, you know, after like two minutes of doing this, our friend Adolf decided to plus M the channel, which means put moderator status on it.
[12:28.950 --> 12:29.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Only he could talk.
[12:29.930 --> 12:32.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or people he deemed worthy of talking were able to talk.
[12:32.770 --> 12:38.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, we're all still chanting, except, you know, it's not being echoed anywhere because, you know, it's being ignored because of the status of the channel.
[12:38.770 --> 12:44.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, we decided to regroup in another channel, 2601.
[12:45.130 --> 12:49.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's how the IRC Internet relay channel, relay chat works.
[12:49.610 --> 12:52.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can basically say anything you want.
[12:52.390 --> 12:55.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can say any kind of, any kind, didn't I turn that off?
[12:58.690 --> 13:00.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it's off now.
[13:02.110 --> 13:08.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, any word, any number you choose, you can send somebody to.
[13:09.750 --> 13:11.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you can just start it up.
[13:11.250 --> 13:12.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can start up your own channel.
[13:12.150 --> 13:12.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can do whatever you want.
[13:13.110 --> 13:14.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, we made 2601.
[13:14.550 --> 13:17.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Decided that would be our grouping area for, you know, for the rally people.
[13:17.750 --> 13:22.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, we decided to bombard them with private messages saying, look, you have to open up the channel.
[13:22.270 --> 13:23.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: You have no right to do this, blah, blah, blah.
[13:24.070 --> 13:32.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, eventually, because this guy, you know, Ferdinand Marcos that he is, wants to be popular to the people, said, okay, I'm going to let the people speak.
[13:32.550 --> 13:34.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because, I'm not afraid of what the people have to say.
[13:35.130 --> 13:37.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, he minus M'd the channel, meaning everybody could speak.
[13:37.850 --> 13:39.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, everyone started chanting again.
[13:39.550 --> 13:42.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's, that's when the brutality started.
[13:42.610 --> 13:45.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's when people started getting kicked and banned.
[13:45.130 --> 13:47.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the police brutality really started in earnest.
[13:49.290 --> 13:50.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Knicks were flying everywhere.
[13:51.210 --> 13:53.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Accounts were being killed, wiped out.
[13:53.270 --> 13:54.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was bloodshed.
[13:54.230 --> 13:55.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this was only in the first 15 minutes.
[14:02.550 --> 14:04.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Moved in and started the same thing all over again.
[14:06.170 --> 14:13.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, while, while this was going on, those of us who had been kicked out and banned were watching from, from other vantage points.
[14:13.970 --> 14:18.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because there are always sympathizers that will relay to you what's going on inside a place that you're not allowed to be.
[14:19.150 --> 14:25.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, we were getting all the messages that were, that were being, you know, broadcast, sent directly to us.
[14:25.170 --> 14:30.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we were able to message those people and tell them, hey, this would be a good idea to do this at this point in time.
[14:30.790 --> 14:33.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, we weren't there, but we were there at the same time.
[14:33.910 --> 14:41.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: And invariably, what happens in these kind of struggles is that you get a hold of somebody who is sympathetic to your cause, who has power.
[14:42.230 --> 14:42.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[14:43.110 --> 14:47.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: We found an operator of the channel that was on our side.
[14:48.150 --> 14:51.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when the time was right, he struck.
[14:51.410 --> 14:58.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: He de-opted everybody on the channel, opened it up again, kicked out those people that were tyrants, and let everybody back in.
[14:58.410 --> 15:01.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we had a two-hour party right there on IRC.
[15:02.730 --> 15:04.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about that story, Bernie?
[15:04.910 --> 15:06.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's why I don't waste my time on IRC.
[15:07.150 --> 15:08.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, power to the people.
[15:08.770 --> 15:09.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is something...
[15:09.870 --> 15:13.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: These kids, a lot of them are kids, you know, that are, you know, 12 or 13 years old, some of them.
[15:15.290 --> 15:23.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are they going to, you know, participate in some sort of, like, Wall Street rally action downtown and get their heads busted in by Giuliani's thugs?
[15:23.110 --> 15:24.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's a good idea.
[15:24.850 --> 15:26.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sounds like a microcosm of life.
[15:26.730 --> 15:36.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is a microcosm of life because I've been involved in various actions, you know, in the past, anti-nuclear rallies, anti-weapon rallies, and, you know, all kinds of different things over the years.
[15:37.870 --> 15:40.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: And these are the same tactics you use.
[15:40.390 --> 15:41.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: You let the people speak.
[15:42.050 --> 15:43.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: You refuse to give up.
[15:43.870 --> 15:44.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: You keep coming back.
[15:45.050 --> 15:47.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you just pressure the people who are putting you down.
[15:47.430 --> 15:58.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what better way to learn this than on the net itself, you know, just messing around with keystrokes, saying whatever it is you want to say, seeing what works, what doesn't, getting allies, conspiring.
[15:59.070 --> 16:01.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a learning experience.
[16:03.890 --> 16:06.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we lost the channel again, like, less than an hour after we got it back.
[16:07.850 --> 16:14.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because somebody, oh, somebody was silly and gave power to somebody who shouldn't have had it, and then they took the power from us and gave it back to the old people.
[16:14.950 --> 16:16.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's not the point.
[16:16.590 --> 16:23.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: The point is that, you know, you can learn all kinds of things, and you shouldn't take it too seriously.
[16:24.350 --> 16:26.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because, as you say, it is only IRC.
[16:26.250 --> 16:26.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is only the Internet.
[16:27.790 --> 16:31.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it does have some reflections on life itself.
[16:31.330 --> 16:32.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no question about that.
[16:33.490 --> 16:34.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: So what did you learn from all that?
[16:36.550 --> 16:40.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I learned that time really flies when you're fighting a war.
[16:41.370 --> 16:44.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: This lasted all night long, except for that one-hour break we all took when Letterman came on.
[16:46.210 --> 16:54.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: But other than that, you know, it's fun to, like, play around and talk to all different people at once.
[16:54.110 --> 16:56.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, I couldn't do this war thing full-time.
[16:56.710 --> 16:57.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's just no way.
[16:57.270 --> 16:58.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have time for it.
[16:58.210 --> 16:58.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's impossible.
[16:59.170 --> 17:00.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some people apparently do.
[17:00.530 --> 17:02.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, some people, you know, are fanatics about it.
[17:03.370 --> 17:07.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: But at most, I could fight a war like this maybe once every two weeks.
[17:07.870 --> 17:08.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because I've got other things.
[17:08.910 --> 17:10.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've got to pay bills.
[17:10.430 --> 17:13.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've got to do various administrative tasks.
[17:13.270 --> 17:15.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've got to, you know, edit the magazine.
[17:15.510 --> 17:16.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've got to prepare the radio show.
[17:17.150 --> 17:21.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so the war has to sort of move back a little bit sometimes.
[17:23.410 --> 17:25.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you'd be interested in enlisting, Bernie.
[17:26.370 --> 17:27.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[17:27.430 --> 17:28.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we'll talk to you.
[17:28.610 --> 17:29.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll send a recruiter around.
[17:30.970 --> 17:33.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so now, there have been other things going on on the net.
[17:34.030 --> 17:34.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, much more important.
[17:35.650 --> 17:36.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Much more interesting.
[17:36.530 --> 17:38.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, you could say much more important and much more interesting.
[17:39.090 --> 17:41.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: But what is more important and interesting than freedom of speech?
[17:41.630 --> 17:45.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Than the right to assemble peaceably in the channel of your choice, huh?
[17:46.630 --> 17:47.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: That depends on where you...
[17:47.610 --> 17:47.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, okay.
[17:48.990 --> 17:50.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Separation of Internet and state.
[17:50.690 --> 17:51.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know?
[17:51.450 --> 17:52.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: All that kind of thing.
[17:52.310 --> 17:54.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, but there are other stories.
[17:54.470 --> 18:02.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was the whole, I guess, Pentagon story.
[18:03.930 --> 18:04.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Correct?
[18:04.910 --> 18:05.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah.
[18:05.530 --> 18:06.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: The whole Pentagon thing.
[18:07.430 --> 18:14.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And various other things that have happened over the last week, including rewriting of some laws and things like that.
[18:14.650 --> 18:21.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: But before we get into that, before we get into that, I just have a song that I'd like to dedicate to all the people.
[18:22.310 --> 18:28.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who lost their nicknames on the Internet Relay Chat War of last night.
[18:29.010 --> 18:31.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the struggle continues, by the way.
[18:31.170 --> 18:32.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: It will be continuing for weeks to come.
[18:33.050 --> 18:34.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: To all those brave souls.
[18:38.040 --> 18:39.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: I have no idea what this is.
[18:41.160 --> 18:42.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Janet Cade Bryant.
[18:43.040 --> 18:43.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[18:43.780 --> 18:44.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: I pushed the wrong button.
[18:44.960 --> 18:48.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: As I said, everything is kind of messed up here tonight.
[18:49.380 --> 18:51.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm glad we heard that cheery voice.
[18:51.720 --> 18:54.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: But this is what I like to dedicate to those freedom fighters out there.
[18:56.660 --> 18:58.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that button doesn't work either.
[18:58.620 --> 18:59.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that sad?
[18:59.280 --> 19:00.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was working before.
[19:00.440 --> 19:01.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: I tested it.
[19:02.320 --> 19:03.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't work at all.
[19:05.440 --> 19:06.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you know what?
[19:06.380 --> 19:07.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're just...
[19:07.840 --> 19:08.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Want to try that?
[19:08.400 --> 19:08.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, here we go.
[19:14.040 --> 19:14.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get it right.
[19:15.760 --> 19:22.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: It just may take us a little bit of time, but stick with us, because we're slow, but we're learning.
[19:22.300 --> 19:26.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: You sold your boycott, you sold his pay, obey
[19:47.820 --> 19:50.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: the charge, you must not relent.
[19:51.530 --> 19:54.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: What are the neighbours and the profits involved?
[19:55.240 --> 19:58.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: What are they saying in the public bazaars?
[20:01.400 --> 20:05.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're tired of the tune, you must not relent.
[20:05.860 --> 20:09.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: At every stroke of the bell in the tower there goes.
[20:09.420 --> 20:18.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Another boy from another side The bulletins that steady come in say those Familiar words at the top of
[20:29.430 --> 20:40.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: humans hear those Guns tattooed, parole on the drums No one mentions a neighbouring war No one knows what the fighting's for
[20:44.200 --> 21:02.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're tired of the tune, you must not relent There's this different kind of chemical system Two dogs and plushes Keeps the water crystal clear Keeps the balls smartly clean continuously for about four months No brains, no strigs, no stains Just put the container in your tank and forget it Every time you flush,
[21:02.460 --> 21:17.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: the chlorine crystals dissolve away rust and minerals Before dirt rings and stains appear And flushing sure beats brushing The generals bow to the government We're tired of the tune, you must not relent You
[21:27.480 --> 21:42.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: know, you don't know what I had to go through To get that particular version of that song today They were forced... that's The Clash, by the way They were forced to cut that last part out of the song when the 2000 Flushes people got angry They didn't want to be on a Clash album,
[21:42.820 --> 21:52.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: apparently And so I had to bring the whole 12-inch version in And I don't know... you ever see the looks you get when you walk around the city with a 12-inch record these days?
[21:52.760 --> 21:53.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody uses them anymore.
[21:53.840 --> 21:54.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody walks around with records.
[21:54.860 --> 21:55.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: They all have CDs.
[21:55.560 --> 21:59.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're very cumbersome You know, you didn't realize a few years ago how cumbersome they were, but...
[22:00.280 --> 22:23.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot more difficult these days You gotta be careful So yes, that's Inoculated City by The Clash, the uncensored version I wish somebody would put that on CD, make things a little easier for everybody You know, we're on a Clash album too WBAI was on a Clash album on Sandinista They actually sample one of the shows here on this radio station You'll have to buy the CD to figure out which one it
[22:23.400 --> 22:33.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: is It's not this one, because we weren't around then But it's just kind of interesting how WBAI has been here for many, many years And will be for many years to come So, Bernie, you there?
[22:33.560 --> 22:48.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, I'm here Now, this Pentagon thing Tell us what's up with that Well, I don't know a lot about it, but I do know that on Wednesday The Pentagon, and I'm reading this On Wednesday, the Pentagon announced That it had been fending off the most organized,
[22:48.440 --> 23:08.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: systematic attack Against its networks to date Yesterday Yesterday, and this was dated on the 27th Which I guess was Friday So this was Thursday Thursday Thursday, the Pentagon announced that it had been fending off the most organized systematic attack of its network to date.
[23:08.540 --> 23:18.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: The FBI said it had questioned an unidentified Northern California teenager after catching him in the act of trying to break into the Pentagon.
[23:18.320 --> 23:19.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: They caught him in the act?
[23:19.400 --> 23:22.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: What, they went into his house and saw him actually doing it?
[23:22.620 --> 23:23.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that what they're saying?
[23:23.640 --> 23:23.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Apparently.
[23:24.180 --> 23:26.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: However, the youth was not arrested.
[23:27.300 --> 23:41.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, a computer security expert suggested that the teen was a red herring designed to bolster public support for Reno's plan, which I'll go into in a minute, which, while well-meaning, fails to get to the heart of the real problem facing the government.
[23:42.420 --> 23:50.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Perhaps this is a con game, said Peter Newman, a principal scientist with a computer science lab at SRI International, a research and consulting company.
[23:50.720 --> 23:55.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: You put out a system with miserable protection and hope that someone tries to break in.
[23:55.020 --> 23:56.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, Newman said.
[23:56.380 --> 24:06.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then you can ask for millions and millions of dollars more to perform further palliative protections rather than getting to the core of the problem, significantly ratcheting up the security of the infrastructure.
[24:09.300 --> 24:14.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Reno's proposed command center, the National Infrastructure Protection Center...
[24:14.660 --> 24:15.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, Bernie, one question.
[24:16.000 --> 24:16.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
[24:16.540 --> 24:18.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: When was this command center proposed?
[24:18.940 --> 24:20.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was proposed last week by Janet Reno.
[24:20.620 --> 24:24.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was proposed how long after they said that the Pentagon was being systematically attacked?
[24:25.300 --> 24:25.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[24:25.940 --> 24:26.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: The same day?
[24:28.400 --> 24:28.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's see.
[24:29.080 --> 24:29.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know...
[24:29.400 --> 24:31.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Even Janet Reno can't move that fast.
[24:31.840 --> 24:33.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And she's pretty slick.
[24:33.220 --> 24:34.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: She can move around pretty quickly.
[24:34.440 --> 24:35.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think...
[24:35.160 --> 24:37.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think she can organize something that quickly.
[24:38.100 --> 24:39.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: This sounds like it was planned.
[24:39.700 --> 24:41.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Perhaps it was a red herring.
[24:41.220 --> 24:41.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[24:41.900 --> 24:56.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: This new center, Reno, is asking for $64 million to staff this center with 125 people, including six investigative squads and more federal protectors, prosecutors, rather.
[24:56.840 --> 24:58.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not protectors, prosecutors, specializing...
[24:58.680 --> 24:58.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Part of the protectors, yes.
[25:00.820 --> 25:01.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Specializing...
[25:01.380 --> 25:03.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Perhaps they are wearing pocket protectors.
[25:03.380 --> 25:03.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[25:04.740 --> 25:06.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Specializing in cybercrime.
[25:06.340 --> 25:16.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, the National Infrastructure Protection Center will have links to other sensitive government departments, such as defense, state, and treasury, as well as local police agencies.
[25:16.500 --> 25:17.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, great.
[25:17.060 --> 25:18.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's all-encompassing.
[25:18.200 --> 25:19.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everybody will have access to this.
[25:19.700 --> 25:21.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the Neighborhood Watch can get involved.
[25:21.600 --> 25:27.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: It will also seek to link up with private computer security centers, such as those run on university campuses.
[25:27.320 --> 25:29.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And will coordinate with other nations.
[25:30.400 --> 25:34.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Without such cooperation, Janet said, the nation will be at peril.
[25:35.060 --> 25:39.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: She was talking to an audience at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.
[25:39.240 --> 25:43.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: The nation is in peril, because you've got lunatics like Janet Reno running around trying to control everything.
[25:43.800 --> 25:56.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, here, according to Reno, one important role for the center will be to distinguish genuine threats to national security from relatively harmless attacks by juvenile computer experts, such as apparently occurred in the Pentagon case.
[25:56.040 --> 25:57.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: So this makes no sense whatsoever.
[25:57.540 --> 26:22.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're using this so-called most organized systematic attack against its network to date, and then walk into a teenager who is trying to break into the Pentagon, and then use that as justification for a $64 million expenditure for this National Infrastructure Protection Center,
[26:22.300 --> 26:29.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: one of whose roles will be to distinguish genuine threats to national security from relatively harmless attacks by juvenile computer experts.
[26:29.860 --> 26:32.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder how she would categorize Kevin Mitnick, then.
[26:32.920 --> 26:45.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, someone who is, obviously, someone who did not cause genuine harm, but someone who they have used as the poster child of, you know, enforcing all these crazy laws they want passed.
[26:45.820 --> 26:47.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you, too, as well.
[26:47.120 --> 26:51.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Would they consider you to have been someone who is, you know, harmless?
[26:51.520 --> 27:03.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the Secret Service has stated in court on more than one occasion that they considered me to be dangerous, but were unable, when cross-examined, to come up with a single example of why they really considered me dangerous.
[27:03.580 --> 27:04.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you had dental putty.
[27:05.040 --> 27:08.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, they had dental putty, which they didn't describe as dental putty.
[27:08.400 --> 27:14.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: They said that they believed it to be C4 plastic explosives, which they said, upon later analysis, turned out not to be.
[27:14.760 --> 27:16.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the fact that it might have been concerned them greatly.
[27:17.080 --> 27:17.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[27:17.240 --> 27:22.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, they just have to say plastic explosives enough time in a sentence for that to stick in a judge's head.
[27:22.260 --> 27:27.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they say, oh, plastic explosives and the defendant are in the same sentence, so therefore they are both evil.
[27:28.140 --> 27:31.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's really, it sounds stupid, but that is how they work.
[27:31.800 --> 27:34.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it sounds pretty stupid until you're locked up.
[27:34.260 --> 27:43.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I was just thinking, last week was my birthday, and I was thinking that just two weeks ago, or two years ago, I was in a five-by-eight cell wondering what my fate would be.
[27:43.440 --> 27:45.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Feeling a bit misty-eyed for those days of the past.
[27:45.580 --> 27:46.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't miss them at all.
[27:47.600 --> 27:49.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Although I'll never forget them.
[27:49.140 --> 27:50.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, we never will either.
[27:50.780 --> 27:54.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, let's get back to the present-day evils of Janet Reno and company.
[27:55.560 --> 28:00.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: So they are planning to, I guess, define all of these crimes somehow.
[28:01.080 --> 28:02.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're asking for $64 million.
[28:02.520 --> 28:08.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And no one's asking really the $64 million question, which is, why is this necessary?
[28:08.600 --> 28:11.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: You'd think that they would avoid asking for $64 million just to avoid that question.
[28:12.620 --> 28:14.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: That just occurred to me, really.
[28:14.120 --> 28:16.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: They should really ask for $65 million or $63 million.
[28:17.040 --> 28:19.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: So nobody asks that $64 million question.
[28:19.020 --> 28:19.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just not $64.
[28:19.980 --> 28:21.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Boy, these people just don't think, do they?
[28:22.140 --> 28:24.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, now, okay, so this all happens really fast.
[28:24.800 --> 28:27.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody systematically penetrates the Pentagon.
[28:27.920 --> 28:28.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, he tries to.
[28:29.020 --> 28:30.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Tries to systematically.
[28:30.440 --> 28:31.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I thought they were successful.
[28:31.380 --> 28:37.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it said the Pentagon had been fending off the most organized systematic attack against its networks to date.
[28:37.520 --> 28:38.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: But they don't specify anything.
[28:38.520 --> 28:42.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they said they got into some systems but didn't get any classified information.
[28:42.560 --> 28:47.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's always the standard rap there, that they got into unclassified computers, not the classified ones.
[28:47.240 --> 28:53.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's because the classified ones are all turned off, you know, and kept away from the public network, supposedly, you know.
[28:53.240 --> 29:03.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, anyway, you had this, you had this happen, you had Janet Reno coming up with her $64 million proposal, and then you had the same people found and, you know, discovered.
[29:03.380 --> 29:04.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the same old story.
[29:04.700 --> 29:13.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, news in the grapevine, and I won't say which grapevine it is, but news in the grapevine has it that the people were simply routing through their computer to get to the Pentagon.
[29:15.000 --> 29:15.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think of that?
[29:16.160 --> 29:17.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's very possible.
[29:17.640 --> 29:22.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's quite likely, in fact, if you were going to hack the Pentagon, would you do it directly from your own home machine?
[29:22.800 --> 29:23.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so.
[29:23.680 --> 29:24.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so, either.
[29:24.820 --> 29:31.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you have to be really stupid to do that, and if you're really stupid, you probably wouldn't be that successful at getting in in the first place.
[29:31.760 --> 29:35.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Although, you know, the way the Pentagon runs their machines, who knows?
[29:35.460 --> 29:35.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
[29:35.940 --> 29:44.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a guy here, some so-called expert, Mr. Stafford.
[29:44.440 --> 29:45.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm reading this.
[29:45.880 --> 29:50.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: He's a so-called lots of things, but let's humor him from now and call him an expert.
[29:50.080 --> 29:59.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: His humorous comment was that this critical infrastructure problem won't be solved by allocating funding to track down computer break-ins.
[29:59.580 --> 30:06.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Rather, he said, the problem amounts to a lack of public awareness and trained personnel in the right positions in industry, government, and law enforcement.
[30:07.160 --> 30:17.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Without the customer demand for tighter security, without government pressure to enforce it, it's sort of like the days of Ralph Nader, when discovering the cars blow up and don't have seatbelts.
[30:17.680 --> 30:22.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then the government responds by making a huge investment to put officers on the highways to catch speeders.
[30:24.060 --> 30:28.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: So they're not looking at the right direction to fix these problems.
[30:28.580 --> 30:38.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think they should bolster their security rather than just leave it open and try to prosecute smart teenagers.
[30:39.200 --> 30:41.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that what he's saying, or is that what you're saying?
[30:41.260 --> 30:41.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I'm saying.
[30:42.060 --> 30:44.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because I was going to say, I agree with that.
[30:44.680 --> 30:48.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that would have troubled me if I agreed with what Gene Spaffer was saying.
[30:48.180 --> 30:49.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can agree with me any time.
[30:49.260 --> 30:49.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, all right.
[30:50.340 --> 30:51.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll stay safe and do that.
[30:52.180 --> 30:54.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's been some other craziness going on in Congress.
[30:54.540 --> 30:55.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah, let's hear about this.
[30:55.680 --> 31:09.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the Secret Service and the FBI this week claimed that, quote, terrorists, end quote, are operating cell phone rings, their telephone rings, as a kind of fundraising venturer.
[31:09.960 --> 31:16.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: These bad guys allegedly sell rewired phones with stolen service and use the cash to finance all kinds of illicit activities.
[31:16.940 --> 31:21.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is from Senator John Kyle's staff, who sponsored a bill.
[31:21.600 --> 31:23.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: A bill, uh, called...
[31:23.920 --> 31:28.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wouldn't, excuse me, wouldn't the story be that there are just terrorists out there doing bad things?
[31:28.900 --> 31:29.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter.
[31:29.740 --> 31:32.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now these are terrorists that are doing bad things with cell phones.
[31:32.620 --> 31:35.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you can make as much money in computer security.
[31:35.300 --> 31:36.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can make a lot more money.
[31:36.620 --> 31:39.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why not just have a band of terrorists go out and become computer consultants?
[31:40.160 --> 31:43.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: They'll make so much more money, and they won't have to do something illegal.
[31:43.080 --> 31:49.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think just, just, you know, playing around with cellular phones, that's not very imaginative.
[31:49.900 --> 31:51.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anybody can do it, you know?
[31:51.860 --> 32:05.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: This bill, this bill proposed by, uh, Senator, uh, uh, and, what was it, Senator Kyle and Representative, uh, Billy Towson, who we're familiar with, uh, who tried to ban scanners last year, uh, it's called the Wireless Telephone Protection Act.
[32:06.440 --> 32:14.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it, uh, it outlaws possessing certain types of hardware and software, including, uh, things that can be used to reprogram cellular phones.
[32:15.140 --> 32:21.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: The, uh, Justice Department and the Secret Service pressed Congress for this legislation, arguing that it's too difficult to prosecute cell phone thieves.
[32:22.220 --> 32:28.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Currently, the government must show that someone possesses such contraband, quote, knowingly and with intent to defraud.
[32:29.700 --> 32:33.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: But proving intent to commit a crime, officials now say, is just too tough.
[32:33.700 --> 32:35.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: They'd rather just ban the stuff outright.
[32:35.300 --> 32:35.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[32:35.600 --> 32:45.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, in 1990, late 94, and I'm intimately familiar with this law, because it's still the same, uh, Title 18, Section 1029, it was used to lock me up for well over a year.
[32:45.520 --> 32:46.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um...
[32:46.000 --> 32:47.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is part of digital telephony?
[32:47.400 --> 33:03.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Part of the digital telephony bill, or CLEA, the Communications Act for Law Enforcement Assistance, which, um, not only, um, allocated $500 million of tax money so that, uh, basically all our central telephone, all our office, central office's telephone systems could be,
[33:03.480 --> 33:11.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh, could be monitored, uh, directly by the FBI without having to, uh, traipse warrants over to the phone company and have them hook up individual wiretaps.
[33:11.860 --> 33:15.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: They can just punch in a phone number and wiretap your phone when this is all in place.
[33:15.280 --> 33:20.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: In addition to that, it amended Section 1029 of the United States Criminal Code.
[33:20.320 --> 33:22.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the EFF just kind of allowed this to happen, right?
[33:22.420 --> 33:30.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they were, they were supposedly working on the whole Communications Tuesday Act fight at that time, but, uh, they didn't really express any interest in, in this.
[33:30.100 --> 33:37.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, they were fighting the, the, uh, telephony, digital telephony, the wiretapping proposal more than they were fighting this other thing, which they were just kind of...
[33:37.360 --> 33:39.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: My recollection is that they accepted this.
[33:40.180 --> 33:40.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's how I remember it.
[33:40.960 --> 33:41.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: They did accept it.
[33:41.680 --> 33:44.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: They, they, they compromised, and I think they made a bad compromise.
[33:44.460 --> 33:44.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[33:44.640 --> 34:05.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, anyway, up until late 94, um, to be prosecuted under Section 1029, you had to possess what's called an access device, which was something that allows you to have illicit access to a specific account, um, like a credit card or a password or something.
[34:05.400 --> 34:09.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Fiber ran into that, that sort of thing with, with the access device, um, definition.
[34:09.860 --> 34:20.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, in late 94, when CALEA passed, they, uh, they added some, uh, some sections to that, to that statute, so that, uh, you didn't need a possession access device anymore.
[34:21.360 --> 34:30.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, all you needed to do was possess hardware or software, uh, for the modification of telecommunications instruments for the unauthorized access to telecommunication services.
[34:30.520 --> 34:32.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: But none of those terms were defined in the statute.
[34:32.320 --> 34:34.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: They left it open for interpretation, their interpretation.
[34:35.460 --> 34:39.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and, uh, that made an end run around the whole definition of access.
[34:39.860 --> 34:47.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Before that, a red box or a blue box even qualifies as access devices, because they didn't allow specific access to a, to a, to a particular account.
[34:47.740 --> 35:01.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, when this thing passed, that, uh, I was nailed with a few weeks later, after it was passed, um, basically, you know, anything that could be used to, uh, generate signals or program a cellular phone, that sort of thing, to allow you to access, uh,
[35:01.500 --> 35:06.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: a communication system without somebody's authorization, uh, fell under this, under the statute.
[35:06.760 --> 35:15.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, but there was a, there was a, uh, uh, a thing before the, uh, the wording of all this, saying, whoever has this stuff, with intent to defraud.
[35:15.120 --> 35:17.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, that was pretty, that was pretty vague, too.
[35:17.320 --> 35:21.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Basically said that if you knew this stuff is going, is you being used for that purpose, then you're guilty.
[35:22.520 --> 35:22.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now...
[35:22.880 --> 35:24.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's how they got you, because you knew it could be used for that.
[35:24.900 --> 35:25.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: I knew.
[35:25.140 --> 35:29.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: You didn't intend to, but because you knew of its capabilities, you could have.
[35:29.440 --> 35:38.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I personally was not committing fraud with that, but I knew that, you know, give a quartz crystal to a kid in a tone dialer, you know he's going to be doing this stuff with you.
[35:38.080 --> 35:40.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you were stupid and you didn't know that, then you would have gotten off.
[35:40.700 --> 35:41.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly.
[35:41.160 --> 35:42.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ignorance would have been a defense.
[35:42.260 --> 35:43.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now it isn't anymore.
[35:43.440 --> 35:43.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ah.
[35:43.840 --> 35:48.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, uh, they've removed the intent to defraud, um, section.
[35:48.500 --> 35:56.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And basically, anybody now, and I can read the, uh, I can read the actual wording of it now, um, it's kind of scary.
[35:56.580 --> 35:59.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: It says, uh, I'll read the old and the new.
[35:59.840 --> 36:14.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, the old is, whoever knowingly with intent to defraud, uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses hardware or software, uh, used for altering or modifying telecommunication instruments to obtain unauthorized access to telecommunication services.
[36:15.100 --> 36:16.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Doesn't mean you have to use it for any reason.
[36:16.600 --> 36:20.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, I wasn't even charged with using any of this stuff for any reason at all.
[36:20.880 --> 36:21.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just having it.
[36:21.940 --> 36:41.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, the new language is, whoever, whoever knowingly uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses hardware or software, knowing it has been configured for altering or modifying a telecommunications instrument, so that such instrument may be used to obtain unauthorized access to telecommunication services,
[36:41.500 --> 36:45.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: is, uh, basically, guilty of a felony and can spend years in prison.
[36:46.120 --> 36:55.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, so, if you have software, and the government says it's configured to do things a certain way, not that it's been used this way, that it's been configured to do this way.
[36:55.740 --> 36:55.740]  Right.
[36:56.120 --> 36:58.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Like, like, now the definition of configured is left open, too.
[36:58.920 --> 37:03.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: If that means it's been installed on a computer and ready to go, then it's configured.
[37:03.340 --> 37:07.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Secret Service has been known to make bigger stretches than that, even in my case.
[37:07.620 --> 37:16.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, they've basically taken out the intent of the fraud, um, requirement, measurement, meaning that it's even more broad and vague of a, a statute.
[37:16.860 --> 37:35.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, if you have anything that can be used, um, like a terminal emulation program, like Hyperterminal that's built into Windows 95, if it's configured to, uh, to be used as a, you know, as a regular TTY dial-up thing, um, which you could use to hack into a system somewhere,
[37:35.960 --> 37:38.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: um, and you know that it can be used that way.
[37:38.420 --> 37:39.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not that it has been.
[37:39.280 --> 37:41.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know that it can be used that way.
[37:41.720 --> 37:42.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're guilty of a felony.
[37:43.580 --> 37:44.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, I don't think... Felony?
[37:44.520 --> 37:50.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: A felony, which, uh, the penalties are up to 15 years in prison and a $500,000 fine.
[37:51.840 --> 37:52.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: That is unbelievable.
[37:52.640 --> 37:57.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, those penalties are, are graded depending on how much money they said was defrauded.
[37:58.040 --> 38:05.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: In my case, they said there was, there were no victims, that there was no money defrauded, and therefore, uh, it was on the lowest part of the scale.
[38:05.960 --> 38:10.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, so it was only like, uh, you know, or a year or so I ended up doing time for.
[38:10.560 --> 38:13.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: But that's still, uh, it wasn't a very pleasant experience.
[38:14.240 --> 38:18.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, so basically, uh, the Secret Service is behind, uh, behind this.
[38:18.380 --> 38:20.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, um, they're making it vaguer and vaguer still.
[38:20.780 --> 38:23.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think people all over the country are going to be prosecuted for this.
[38:23.860 --> 38:31.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: But what we have is an even more powerful tool in the hands of the Secret Service, who are, whose responsibility is to enforce this particular statute.
[38:32.080 --> 38:36.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, they have a more powerful tool at their disposal now than they did when they prosecuted me.
[38:37.200 --> 38:51.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: So basically, if they, if they don't like you for any reason, whether it's for, uh, broadcasting undercover photos of their secret, of their undercover agents, uh, picking their noses and getting them broadcast on television, or some other reason they might not like you,
[38:51.840 --> 38:59.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: if they've managed to search your, your property and find a computer, software, they could be used this way.
[38:59.840 --> 39:02.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: And almost anything could be used this way, even a modem.
[39:02.960 --> 39:03.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: They can charge you.
[39:04.080 --> 39:05.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you gotta fight this thing.
[39:05.980 --> 39:11.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, now it sounds, uh, it sounds like a stretch, but they stretched long and hard in my case.
[39:12.160 --> 39:13.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And look where it got them.
[39:13.900 --> 39:15.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, what's the status of this, uh, particular?
[39:15.800 --> 39:16.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Has it been passed?
[39:16.380 --> 39:22.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: It has, uh, it has sailed through both the House and the Senate without any opposition whatsoever.
[39:23.500 --> 39:24.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's unanimous, you're saying?
[39:24.760 --> 39:25.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's unanimous.
[39:26.260 --> 39:26.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[39:27.000 --> 39:31.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: How did it say these things sailed through so quickly without people even getting a chance to say anything about them?
[39:31.540 --> 39:32.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a really good question.
[39:32.740 --> 39:38.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: The whole, um, you know, the amendments to Section 1029 and late 94 were tacked on at the last minute, too.
[39:38.100 --> 39:46.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: This was probably tacked on to a much larger bill where, you know, somebody had some money to make as a result of the passage of some much larger bill.
[39:46.940 --> 39:55.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they're willing to... A lot of times they're tacked on to appropriations bills where, you know, some, uh, some agency needs to get refunded for the next year.
[39:55.280 --> 40:00.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, they'll put up with these little things to... in order to get their money.
[40:00.060 --> 40:00.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[40:01.000 --> 40:10.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, I personally think everybody should be, uh, I think there should be daily, uh, referenda where everybody gets to vote on all this stuff.
[40:10.420 --> 40:11.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, Bernie, we're quickly running out of time.
[40:12.140 --> 40:18.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, in a minute or so, tell us about this, uh, the new things happening for the, um, for the micro-broadcasting convention.
[40:18.780 --> 40:21.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Then we're going to take some phone calls, 212-279-3400.
[40:21.520 --> 40:25.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: We, uh, we don't have our net friends with us tonight, I don't think.
[40:25.580 --> 40:31.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, those of you listening in the New York, uh, tri-state area, um, I guess you're on your own tonight.
[40:32.000 --> 40:32.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just like old times.
[40:33.560 --> 40:35.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400.
[40:35.260 --> 40:36.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, Bernie, what's up with that?
[40:36.580 --> 40:43.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the East Coast Micro-Broadcasters Conference is going to be held here in Philadelphia April 3rd through 5th.
[40:44.560 --> 40:49.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, I believe I have a telephone number for people interested in attending.
[40:49.380 --> 40:50.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let me tell you what it's about.
[40:50.700 --> 40:51.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'll give you the phone number first.
[40:58.420 --> 40:59.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's 8886.
[40:59.740 --> 41:04.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, 215-474-3386.
[41:05.060 --> 41:13.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or you can email WPPR at svaha, S-V-A-H-A dot com.
[41:14.020 --> 41:16.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, Radio Mutiny is sponsoring this conference.
[41:16.560 --> 41:20.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Radio Mutiny is a pirate radio, community pirate radio station here in Philadelphia.
[41:20.420 --> 41:21.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's been on the air for about a year.
[41:22.140 --> 41:26.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, the FCC tried to shut it down, but they didn't bring a search warrant with them, so they returned away.
[41:27.180 --> 41:28.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, it's a very good station.
[41:28.840 --> 41:34.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: There are over 40 programmers who, uh, broadcast all kinds of news and other things of interest to the community here in Philadelphia.
[41:35.660 --> 41:39.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, covers a good, good part of the section, or a good part of the, good section of the city.
[41:40.360 --> 41:43.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, there's so many other stations like this springing up all over the country.
[41:43.260 --> 41:46.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, a lot of people figured, well, it'd be a good time to have a conference.
[41:46.860 --> 41:53.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, April 3rd to 5th, um, it'll be held here in Philadelphia, call it information number for, for details.
[41:53.600 --> 42:08.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we got an email, I didn't say we, but friends of mine got an email recently that, uh, the chief of compliance of the federal communications commission, like the top cop at the FCC wants to come to the conference and address everybody.
[42:09.420 --> 42:13.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, he said he's coming as a public servant, not as an enforcer.
[42:13.560 --> 42:16.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if we should believe him or not, but he might have some interesting things to say.
[42:16.920 --> 42:18.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think a lot of people might have some interesting questions.
[42:18.800 --> 42:22.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me just tell you one thing, Bernie, and I learned this from the, from the famous CFP conference in Chicago.
[42:23.140 --> 42:25.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Those people, meaning feds are never off duty.
[42:26.120 --> 42:27.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you gotta, you gotta be really careful.
[42:27.520 --> 42:29.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the time when they tried to bust everybody for being Kevin Mitnick, remember?
[42:30.220 --> 42:30.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[42:30.940 --> 42:36.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, at, uh, at Hope, he had Kevin Mitnick masks ready for everybody just in case they try to do that again.
[42:36.320 --> 42:36.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[42:37.120 --> 42:38.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they almost did.
[42:38.520 --> 42:55.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: So in addition to, uh, the top cop at the federal communications commission, uh, coming to speak at this conference, uh, one of the lead lawyers with the ACLU here in the Philadelphia office, um, who, uh, was, had a lot to do with the successful challenge to the communications decency act,
[42:55.780 --> 42:58.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh, will be also speaking at the conference.
[42:58.600 --> 43:06.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we hope to get them on the same panel to, uh, throw back and forth some of the First Amendment issues pertaining to micro broadcasting.
[43:06.340 --> 43:11.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And as you know, it takes millions of dollars to get a radio station license these days from the FCC.
[43:12.660 --> 43:21.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, there's simply no reason why, uh, low power, uh, what used to be called, um, class D stations, which the FCC did away with, uh, over 10 years ago.
[43:21.860 --> 43:27.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, there's no reason why, uh, low power stations can't be put up to use to serve the community.
[43:27.700 --> 43:29.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what radio mutiny here is in Philadelphia.
[43:30.080 --> 43:30.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[43:30.480 --> 43:37.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, I'm, uh, I'm involved with the conference, not in the radio station itself per se, uh, but I'm involved with the conference.
[43:37.240 --> 43:43.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: So if anybody has any interest in, uh, in attending, please, uh, either email, uh, the group or call that telephone number.
[43:44.060 --> 43:45.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, I'll give it one more time.
[43:45.200 --> 43:49.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a 215-474-3386.
[43:49.240 --> 43:52.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's going to be a lot of people there, uh, talking about their pirate radio stations.
[43:52.780 --> 44:00.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: There'll be, uh, people there selling, uh, selling pirate radio transmitters and exchanging technical information about just how to get a station going.
[44:00.320 --> 44:08.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, all the, all the stuff you need to know to, uh, to, uh, put together programming, uh, how to run a democratic station.
[44:08.480 --> 44:11.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have a lot of people involved and it's, uh... And what's, what's the date of this again?
[44:12.200 --> 44:13.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: April 3rd through 5th.
[44:13.500 --> 44:14.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: And is that a weekend?
[44:14.960 --> 44:15.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: It is.
[44:15.560 --> 44:16.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Friday through Sunday.
[44:16.400 --> 44:16.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[44:16.620 --> 44:21.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe, maybe people can plan to go to the 2600 meeting down in, uh, Philadelphia and then walk on over.
[44:21.900 --> 44:23.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: It would mean that it's the same weekend.
[44:23.260 --> 44:23.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Same weekend.
[44:23.860 --> 44:24.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, there you go.
[44:24.720 --> 44:26.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's a full weekend of activities.
[44:26.860 --> 44:33.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And actually, actually the 30th Street station where the 2600 meetings go on here in Philadelphia is, uh, it's just a few blocks from where, uh, the conference will be.
[44:33.960 --> 44:34.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[44:34.340 --> 44:37.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe afterwards we'll all get together and overthrow an IRC channel or something.
[44:37.720 --> 44:38.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-oh.
[44:38.240 --> 44:39.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: It'll be a whole weekend of subversive activities.
[44:40.380 --> 44:40.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[44:41.100 --> 44:45.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, speaking of subversive activities, we have this one reminder, or actually, uh, update for people.
[44:45.160 --> 44:46.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Then we're going to take some phone calls.
[44:46.120 --> 44:47.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400.
[44:47.600 --> 44:52.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you're a high school journalist who's been censored by a repressive principal, now there's a place to speak freely.
[44:52.540 --> 44:54.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is from, uh, a current issue of Newsweek.
[44:55.100 --> 45:08.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Bolt Reporter, found at www.boltreporter.com, an online high school newspaper written by students across the country, devotes its Banned on Bolt section to controversial stories.
[45:08.480 --> 45:18.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Banned on Bolt's first article, a report on a Naperville, Illinois North High School teacher accused of sexually abusing a student, was initially nixed by the school's principal and published in Bolt last fall.
[45:19.140 --> 45:27.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Says senior editor Parker Stanzion, we empower students around the country not only to know their rights, but to act on them.
[45:27.360 --> 45:36.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, a couple of weeks ago we were talking about a high school student who was expelled for writing a story about hacking in his underground high school newspaper.
[45:37.240 --> 45:40.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, the net is the place to express yourself.
[45:40.500 --> 45:44.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, we're happy to, uh, to see it prospering like this.
[45:45.100 --> 45:45.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's take some phone calls.
[45:46.060 --> 45:47.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400.
[45:47.580 --> 45:47.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[45:48.060 --> 45:48.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on the air.
[45:48.900 --> 45:50.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good, uh, evening.
[45:50.500 --> 45:51.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Three items first.
[45:52.420 --> 45:55.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, free, free, free at last.
[45:55.740 --> 45:57.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank heaven I'm free at last.
[45:57.440 --> 45:58.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Were you imprisoned?
[45:58.620 --> 45:59.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, sir.
[45:59.240 --> 46:01.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was a customer of MCI.
[46:01.480 --> 46:02.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, boy.
[46:02.280 --> 46:02.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.
[46:03.320 --> 46:05.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: It can be kind of hard to, to get out of their clutches.
[46:05.940 --> 46:10.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: I switched, uh, both my lines to L, as in Larry, C-I.
[46:11.500 --> 46:21.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, uh, I no longer have to spend 10 minutes, uh, giving people special instructions about how to use my MCI-1 number.
[46:22.060 --> 46:25.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: I no longer have to meet the $5 minimum per month for it.
[46:25.220 --> 46:26.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: What about the circles?
[46:26.880 --> 46:29.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, oh, oh, I never was involved with that.
[46:29.240 --> 46:31.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, mine was all on a small business account.
[46:32.020 --> 46:43.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, uh, and you can leave messages up to three minutes and seven seconds along, and you're not expected to pay for them with the small business one number because they consider that an incomplete communication.
[46:43.300 --> 46:57.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: It can be a terrific thing, but I just, I found I could not give them 10 to 40 hours a month out of my life trying to correct all their errors in handling my accounts, so I freed myself.
[46:57.720 --> 47:10.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: And anyway, item number two, I don't know how many of our listeners will be able to get a copy of Chicago Magazine, which I found at some midtown place that has out-of-town, uh, papers.
[47:10.580 --> 47:31.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: But the February issue had what seemed like a very well-researched, uh, thing that covers completely the fact that, uh, most conspicuously, MCI and AT&T are stealing your long-distance domestic, uh, information operator calls and why it is that they're doing it.
[47:31.840 --> 47:36.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't, I don't have the February issue of Chicago Magazine, uh, handy.
[47:36.440 --> 47:41.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a monthly, it's our local equivalent of our weekly New York Magazine, et cetera.
[47:41.400 --> 47:41.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[47:41.560 --> 47:41.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[47:42.040 --> 47:49.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I imagine it can probably be read on the net somewhere, but it's a very worthwhile, uh, article to look at.
[47:49.720 --> 48:09.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Third item is, um, consumer reports in either the last month or one of the last four issues, roughly, I would say, if not the last six, but that thing where you have to have a computer and you subscribe for $4.95 a month and it picks the lowest rate at a given moment for a given call for you.
[48:09.820 --> 48:09.820]  Yes.
[48:10.180 --> 48:11.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, they did.
[48:11.220 --> 48:11.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Phone miser.
[48:11.960 --> 48:12.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Phone miser.
[48:12.480 --> 48:12.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Phone miser.
[48:12.920 --> 48:13.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[48:13.560 --> 48:26.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: They, they did a good research job on that and their usual, um, very succinct and, um, uh, thorough, uh, job on it and, and, uh, very, uh, dispassionate.
[48:26.280 --> 48:28.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Did they give it a thumbs up or a thumbs down?
[48:29.740 --> 48:40.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I, they came up more or less, I think the way some of the people who discussed it with you, it's, it's just about more nuisance than it's worth, I think was their overall feeling.
[48:41.500 --> 48:41.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[48:41.940 --> 48:51.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you could, if you could, if you could hook it up and get it to work, it will save you money because it will, it will always route your call the least expensive way, but it's not simple to set up either.
[48:51.800 --> 49:02.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, let me ask you this, uh, Bernie, when, when you say it will route it, doesn't that mean they're using the five or now perhaps seven digit crossover code to go to a particular company?
[49:02.580 --> 49:03.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: The 10x, yes.
[49:03.980 --> 49:04.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[49:04.360 --> 49:21.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, uh, the companies I have questioned about that, they say, if you don't have us as your dial one carrier on the line, you're making the call on, if you're what they call a casual user or crossover, a 10x user, they charge you a much higher rate.
[49:21.320 --> 49:21.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they discriminate.
[49:22.040 --> 49:25.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think AT&T even was proposing charging an extra fee for those casual customers.
[49:26.120 --> 49:29.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, how, how can the phone miser, how do they overcome that?
[49:29.100 --> 49:36.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine, I imagine they take that into account because you'll never get the 10 cent a minute, uh, rate by doing 10 XXX.
[49:36.260 --> 49:39.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: They may have an agreement with some of the companies.
[49:39.320 --> 49:39.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's possible.
[49:40.020 --> 49:40.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: They do.
[49:40.920 --> 49:41.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's, that's what they do.
[49:42.580 --> 49:43.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, right, right.
[49:43.540 --> 49:43.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: So.
[49:43.980 --> 49:44.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[49:44.360 --> 49:44.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for the call.
[49:44.980 --> 49:46.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to move on to, uh, some more phone calls.
[49:46.480 --> 49:47.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400.
[49:47.820 --> 49:48.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[49:48.240 --> 49:48.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on the air.
[49:50.000 --> 49:50.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Speak up.
[49:51.700 --> 49:52.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello, it's India.
[49:52.840 --> 49:53.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, how you doing?
[49:53.720 --> 49:54.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: What's up?
[49:54.340 --> 49:54.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're on now?
[49:55.120 --> 49:58.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you're on the air live, even though you don't hear yourself for another seven seconds.
[49:58.560 --> 49:59.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, well, this is like cool.
[50:00.100 --> 50:00.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, um,
[50:03.540 --> 50:05.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: we're glad you find it so cool.
[50:05.240 --> 50:07.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, uh, what's on your mind?
[50:07.400 --> 50:13.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, I just wanted to say that we will have control back and that all those little people in there who think... Oh, you're one of the warriors.
[50:13.660 --> 50:17.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're one of the, you're one of the soldiers of the, of the IRC war of 1998.
[50:17.700 --> 50:19.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but not on Adolf's side.
[50:19.520 --> 50:19.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, good.
[50:19.960 --> 50:20.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[50:20.300 --> 50:21.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's good to know.
[50:21.300 --> 50:24.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, and I think you were on the side of light from the beginning, correct?
[50:24.800 --> 50:25.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Of course.
[50:25.400 --> 50:25.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[50:25.580 --> 50:31.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we, you know, we've gotten a few people that say they were only following orders on, you know, from, from our friend over there.
[50:31.100 --> 50:35.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, of course, because they're just scared and trying to stay powerful.
[50:35.860 --> 50:36.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[50:36.620 --> 50:36.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[50:37.220 --> 50:38.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bernie, you see, this is serious.
[50:38.660 --> 50:38.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[50:39.180 --> 50:40.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: People are devoting their lives to this.
[50:41.500 --> 50:42.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you understand?
[50:42.540 --> 50:43.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: I already hear that.
[50:43.340 --> 50:43.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[50:44.740 --> 50:50.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Look, would you rather, would you rather we be like, you know, throwing Molotov cocktails at various passing, you know, people?
[50:50.240 --> 50:52.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it depends on what you're throwing Molotov cocktails at.
[50:52.820 --> 50:53.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I suppose.
[50:53.540 --> 50:57.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you'll notice that's gone way down over the past couple of years, ever since the net came into being.
[50:57.700 --> 50:58.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's true.
[50:58.560 --> 51:00.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a great pacifier, isn't it?
[51:00.160 --> 51:02.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of broken computers, though, but, uh, never mind that.
[51:02.980 --> 51:05.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, um, Indigo, any, um, any updates?
[51:06.080 --> 51:06.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um.
[51:06.460 --> 51:07.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, what's wrong with MCI?
[51:07.680 --> 51:08.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know anything about that?
[51:08.460 --> 51:09.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have no clue.
[51:09.220 --> 51:10.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: I haven't asked about that, so I wouldn't know.
[51:10.940 --> 51:11.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh.
[51:11.540 --> 51:14.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: But Adolf's back in power and not for long.
[51:14.700 --> 51:17.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, you know, this is, this is probably his last, uh, hurrah.
[51:17.960 --> 51:23.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, you know how things ended for the other ones, so, uh, you know, it's, uh, we'll see what the IRC equivalent of that is.
[51:24.240 --> 51:25.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anything else going on?
[51:25.480 --> 51:26.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's about it.
[51:26.360 --> 51:27.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, thanks for the update.
[51:27.500 --> 51:28.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right, talk to you later.
[51:28.260 --> 51:28.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Take care.
[51:28.640 --> 51:28.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bye.
[51:30.020 --> 51:33.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, uh, a live update from the front, as it were.
[51:33.760 --> 51:38.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, uh, we'll be keeping you, uh, apprised of the situation future weeks, too.
[51:39.100 --> 51:40.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening, you're on Off the Hook.
[51:40.720 --> 51:41.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[51:41.320 --> 51:41.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have a couple of things.
[51:42.080 --> 51:47.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is Peter from Laurie Shai, also from Pirate Radio, so I hope everybody will attend the conference in Philadelphia.
[51:48.020 --> 52:01.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's really, really important to do it, because the FCC and freedom of speech issues are, are, um, they just have all kinds of legislation that they're trying to propose that it just, it just creeps in.
[52:01.600 --> 52:04.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's interesting the way it creeps in by small, little restrictions.
[52:05.460 --> 52:09.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, hey, how was your, how was your, how was your fundraiser last week?
[52:09.980 --> 52:11.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I'm not sure.
[52:11.540 --> 52:12.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have not seen the total.
[52:13.000 --> 52:14.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: So much money, you haven't had time to count it.
[52:14.800 --> 52:14.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[52:16.020 --> 52:29.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Co-Production Quarterly, the most recent issue, has a pretty good, uh, description of some of the, uh, the pirate stations that are around, and some of the trials and tribulations they're going through, but it's, uh, really, really good to take a look at that,
[52:29.240 --> 52:35.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: if you don't know about the basics of, uh, micro-broadcasting and see that, uh, you too can have one in your neighborhood.
[52:35.620 --> 52:43.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Some information on the search, uh, if you do have a, a station and the man comes to knock at your door, uh, I would recommend a couple of things.
[52:44.160 --> 52:54.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: If they are federal, uh, the problem there is that they don't need a search warrant under exclusionary rule, rule 666, but they must tell you... It's really 666?
[52:54.720 --> 52:55.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[52:55.540 --> 52:56.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, boy.
[52:56.180 --> 52:56.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's not something.
[52:57.320 --> 52:59.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: $64 million and now this.
[52:59.080 --> 52:59.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: What a coincidence.
[53:00.180 --> 53:04.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they must, but they must have a, a written, uh, paper to say what the charge is.
[53:05.040 --> 53:09.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I mean, what, uh, what is the purpose of their visit with the charge or what they're, think they're looking for?
[53:09.920 --> 53:26.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, the, um, radio mutiny was able to get away with it because they were not, uh, the federal, they were not, uh, if it's FCC versus the local DA, that, that's, for example, Napoleon Williams had that distinction that, that, uh, made it so that they couldn't lock him up.
[53:26.140 --> 53:28.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: They locked up his equipment because it was the local DA, not the feds.
[53:28.940 --> 53:38.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, with that rate, with the radio mutiny case in last November, it was the FCC that came with local police department, uh, uh, they didn't have, uh, they didn't have a search warrant.
[53:38.220 --> 53:39.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: They didn't have a charge.
[53:39.640 --> 53:41.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they were turned away and they, they left.
[53:41.580 --> 53:48.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then they, then they sent us, uh, uh, they sent the people that I know a, uh, certified letter saying cease and desist.
[53:48.960 --> 53:54.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's when the ACLU said, okay, we will represent you on First Amendment grounds if they come back.
[53:54.300 --> 53:57.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me, let me ask you guys a question real quick, cause we do want to move on to one more phone call.
[53:58.400 --> 54:03.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, now we have, we have two, um, uh, two of the these stations, one in Philadelphia.
[54:03.460 --> 54:04.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: What's the frequency down there, Bernie?
[54:05.720 --> 54:06.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: 91.3.
[54:06.600 --> 54:06.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[54:06.880 --> 54:09.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have Steel This Radio in New York, which I believe is 88.7.
[54:10.020 --> 54:10.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: 88.7.
[54:10.620 --> 54:14.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are there others in the area, New Jersey, Long Island, Connecticut, that you know of?
[54:14.760 --> 54:16.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: I, I don't know.
[54:16.320 --> 54:23.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I know there, there were a couple of people operating in Brooklyn, but I don't, I know one of them was shut down and I don't really know.
[54:23.420 --> 54:24.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've heard about somebody else in Brooklyn.
[54:24.880 --> 54:36.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know where it is, but I do want to tell people that on shortwave, uh, 5.027 on the international band, Omega, the Omega Network has a really good program on radio and shortwave issues.
[54:36.400 --> 54:37.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's called Spectrum.
[54:37.160 --> 54:39.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's at nine o'clock at night, five days a week.
[54:39.500 --> 54:40.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's really good.
[54:41.000 --> 54:45.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of, uh, you know, crosses over into some of the off-the-hook territory and also about shortwave.
[54:46.040 --> 54:47.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'll have to fire up the old shortwave and listen to that.
[54:47.920 --> 54:48.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, they're great.
[54:48.660 --> 54:49.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just crank it up.
[54:49.360 --> 54:50.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for calling, right?
[54:50.160 --> 54:50.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much.
[54:50.940 --> 54:51.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Take care.
[54:51.520 --> 54:56.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a website, uh, called the Free Radio Network, which if you use your search engine, you can find pretty easily.
[54:56.860 --> 54:59.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, there's a directory of pirate radio stations on the Free Radio Network.
[54:59.760 --> 55:01.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, of course, you know, Bernie, that they're not really pirates.
[55:02.260 --> 55:03.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: The real pirates are those...
[55:03.540 --> 55:14.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Real pirates are the corporate, uh, corporate commercial people that go out there and take over every... I mean, all you have to do, okay, and this is a fun project for anyone out there that's listening to a radio right... well, don't do it right now.
[55:14.540 --> 55:17.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wait until... you know, I'm not saying don't listen to the show after me either.
[55:17.780 --> 55:22.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just whenever, whenever you feel like doing it and, um, and you have time, go down to 92.
[55:23.340 --> 55:24.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Go down to that area of the dial.
[55:24.640 --> 55:28.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everything below 92, 92 is non-commercial, like we are here at 99.5.
[55:28.820 --> 55:29.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't ask how we got here.
[55:29.800 --> 55:30.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a long story.
[55:30.740 --> 55:35.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: But every station below 92 is kind of, you know, scrunched in there.
[55:35.680 --> 55:37.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like the non-commercial ghetto, they call it.
[55:38.180 --> 55:41.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they don't have all this bandwidth to, uh, to stretch out their signal.
[55:42.100 --> 55:46.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, go through there one by one, listen to all the stations, see how nice and even they sound.
[55:46.680 --> 55:49.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then you hit K-Rock, right, at 92.3.
[55:49.280 --> 55:51.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're screaming at the top of their lungs.
[55:51.580 --> 55:51.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bam!
[55:51.980 --> 55:54.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're just, like, you know, spreading out all over the spectrum.
[55:54.940 --> 55:58.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: That is the difference between pirate radio and people radio.
[55:59.820 --> 56:01.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I should give a speech, shouldn't I, at this thing?
[56:01.660 --> 56:02.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: You should come to the conference.
[56:02.780 --> 56:04.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that should be fun.
[56:04.360 --> 56:06.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's see if we can squeeze in one more phone call.
[56:06.800 --> 56:07.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[56:07.560 --> 56:07.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on the air.
[56:09.380 --> 56:10.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you, you're on the air.
[56:10.620 --> 56:11.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[56:11.480 --> 56:11.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: How you doing?
[56:11.980 --> 56:19.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah, did you get, well, first of all, let me say that the, uh, the cutoff time for, um, you know, when you, when you ring a number that's not picking up seems to have gotten a lot longer.
[56:19.720 --> 56:20.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, really?
[56:20.240 --> 56:20.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like doubled.
[56:20.840 --> 56:22.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: It used to be, like, something like two minutes.
[56:22.600 --> 56:26.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now it's, it's maybe approaching five minutes, so it's... And you haven't moved from out-of-state to in-state, have you?
[56:26.920 --> 56:27.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[56:27.620 --> 56:28.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Same, same place.
[56:28.480 --> 56:29.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Where are you calling from?
[56:29.380 --> 56:29.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Queens.
[56:29.680 --> 56:30.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: From Queens.
[56:30.220 --> 56:30.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's good.
[56:30.800 --> 56:32.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe Bell Atlantic has better policies than NYNEX.
[56:32.720 --> 56:32.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[56:33.460 --> 56:36.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, did you get the little flyer announcing the new area code 646?
[56:37.460 --> 56:39.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I think, yeah, I did see that.
[56:39.220 --> 56:41.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, 646 is coming, and it's going to be an overlay.
[56:41.600 --> 56:49.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right, and it says there that, that for, for now, and it emphasizes for now, um, dialing within the same area code will still be seven digits.
[56:49.700 --> 56:53.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that does leave the clear implication that it soon will not be seven digits.
[56:53.540 --> 57:09.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they're, they're trying to, uh, get over an FCC regulation that says, in overlay situations, you have to dial the full 10 or 11 digits, because otherwise it's unfair to those people that wind up with the inferior area code, which, in this case, I think we all agree will be 646.
[57:09.720 --> 57:11.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right, so it's, it's, that's true, of course.
[57:11.300 --> 57:12.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it's still in dispute, then.
[57:12.480 --> 57:12.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[57:12.980 --> 57:16.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: In a year, if we say that, people are going to get angry at us because they're going to be 646 people.
[57:16.340 --> 57:18.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: But now we can say it without any kind of contradiction.
[57:18.700 --> 57:19.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was very upset with 718.
[57:20.040 --> 57:20.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Way back, I'm not over it yet.
[57:21.080 --> 57:22.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's not talk about 718 anymore.
[57:22.880 --> 57:27.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, they do have an 800 number where they, uh, they have a little skit on there where it's so pathetic.
[57:27.720 --> 57:31.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: They have a, they have a man and a woman, and the woman is complaining, oh, it's a new area code.
[57:31.580 --> 57:35.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the man says, oh, well, you, you were against microwave ovens and all these other different...
[57:35.760 --> 57:35.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have a number?
[57:36.160 --> 57:39.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's 800-322-3551.
[57:40.500 --> 57:40.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: 3551.
[57:40.920 --> 57:41.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's try to give that a call.
[57:41.820 --> 57:41.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[57:42.040 --> 57:42.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for calling.
[57:43.580 --> 57:45.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: 322-3551.
[57:46.300 --> 57:47.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see if we can do this.
[57:50.660 --> 57:51.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: What was it?
[57:51.400 --> 57:52.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: 322-1?
[57:53.440 --> 57:53.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: 3551?
[57:54.500 --> 57:55.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Did I dial it wrong?
[57:55.880 --> 57:57.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: I dialed 355.
[57:57.340 --> 57:57.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-oh.
[57:58.200 --> 57:58.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, hold on.
[57:58.960 --> 57:59.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: One more time.
[57:59.560 --> 57:59.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hold on.
[57:59.920 --> 58:00.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's try this again.
[58:07.550 --> 58:09.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now some fun from Bell Atlantic.
[58:12.340 --> 58:14.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you for calling Bell Atlantic.
[58:14.520 --> 58:19.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you're wondering about Manhattan's new 646 area code, you've come to the right place.
[58:20.260 --> 58:21.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, great.
[58:21.320 --> 58:22.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Another new area code.
[58:22.780 --> 58:24.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure you've got an opinion about it.
[58:24.800 --> 58:25.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely.
[58:25.580 --> 58:28.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why in tarnation would I want a new area code for Manhattan?
[58:28.480 --> 58:30.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you were against microwave ovens at first, too.
[58:30.940 --> 58:32.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wasn't 212 good enough?
[58:32.480 --> 58:35.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is there something more magical about 646?
[58:35.200 --> 58:37.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: And you started out hating answering machines.
[58:37.240 --> 58:37.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: They were different.
[58:37.900 --> 58:38.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: How so?
[58:38.400 --> 58:39.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.
[58:39.060 --> 58:39.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: They were just different.
[58:39.860 --> 58:42.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: But once you realized you needed them, you got used to them.
[58:42.380 --> 58:44.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't want a garbage disposal at first, either.
[58:44.820 --> 58:46.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Manhattan got along just fine without them.
[58:47.060 --> 58:48.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly my point.
[58:48.400 --> 58:49.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Which would be what?
[58:49.700 --> 58:54.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: We got along fine for years with one area code, but now we need more phone numbers.
[58:54.700 --> 58:56.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212 is just about tapped out.
[58:56.600 --> 59:01.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: By having two area codes, we won't have to carve up the place like some giant pizza.
[59:01.160 --> 59:02.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll have to change my number, I suppose.
[59:03.040 --> 59:04.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, no.
[59:04.120 --> 59:08.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you already have a 212 number, and just about everyone in Manhattan does, you'll keep it.
[59:08.940 --> 59:11.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: It will probably cost more to call a 646 number.
[59:12.120 --> 59:13.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, no again.
[59:13.640 --> 59:19.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Calling 646 from 212 will cost the same as if you're calling from a 212 number, and vice versa.
[59:19.880 --> 59:25.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, no matter where you're calling from, a 646 call will be the same as calling 212.
[59:26.020 --> 59:27.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: There will still be a difference.
[59:27.420 --> 59:27.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Name one.
[59:28.140 --> 59:31.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, let's say I have a 212 number, and I call your 646 number.
[59:32.320 --> 59:32.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: So?
[59:32.660 --> 59:35.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I'll have to dial 1-646 before your number.
[59:35.940 --> 59:36.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[59:36.360 --> 59:40.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: You'd dial the area code, just like you would if you were calling someone in Brooklyn, you'd dial 718.
[59:40.280 --> 59:41.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, well, we get the idea here.
[59:41.700 --> 59:44.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: But how will I know what area code to dial?
[59:44.160 --> 59:45.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you know what they're out of time here?
[59:45.900 --> 59:47.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, Bernie, thank you very much for joining us.
[59:48.020 --> 59:51.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll call us again next week and play the whole thing through, if people really want to hear it that much.
[59:51.440 --> 59:53.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: But we are late now, so we'll see you next week.
[59:54.140 --> 59:55.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Emmanuel Goldstein for Off The Hook.
[59:55.300 --> 59:55.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good night.
[01:00:05.190 --> 01:00:09.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:00:10.590 --> 01:00:12.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: I cut myself while shaving.
[01:00:13.210 --> 01:00:15.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now I can't make a call.
[01:00:15.930 --> 01:00:17.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: It could be yet much worse.
[01:00:23.850 --> 01:00:26.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: I hope that's understood, but make me move!
[01:00:47.650 --> 01:00:49.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is Janice K.
[01:00:49.190 --> 01:00:49.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: Bryant.
[01:00:49.750 --> 01:00:52.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: And honey, every day I have the blues.
[01:00:52.650 --> 01:00:56.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to give them to you Saturday night at 9.30 p.m.
[01:00:56.390 --> 01:00:59.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: when we listen to Gut Bucket Women, past, present, and future.
[01:01:03.430 --> 01:01:05.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, put the kids to bed early.