And you're tuned to listen to sponsored, commercial-free, community radio WBAI in New York, 99.5 FM.
I'm Michael G. Haskins, signing off for the night.
Mike Levine's engineer for this program, Expert Witness Show.
He'll be back next Tuesday at 7 p.m.
Coming up at 8 o'clock, Off the Hook with Emmanuel Goldstein, Arab Voices, Crescent
Rising with Barbara Nimri Aziz at 9 p.m., City in Exile at 10 o'clock, Janet Coleman
is your host, and Poisoned Arts at 10.48 p.m.
Off the Hook, coming up straight away.
India and Pakistan have now detonated 11 atomic and hydrogen bombs.
What's behind this nuclear confrontation?
And what about the United States and China?
This is Dr. Michio Kaku.
Join us this Thursday, June 18th, from 6 to 9 p.m. at the Martin Luther King, Jr. Labor
Center.
That's 310 West 43rd Street, between 8th and 9th Avenues.
Speakers include Dilip Hero, author of A Dictionary of the Middle East and Inside India Today.
Also representatives from India and Pakistan and myself.
For more information, please call 212-330-8277.
That's 212-330-8277.
Don't miss it.
And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI in New York, where we're broadcasting from
yet another new studio.
And this is the final stop, I think, on our journey.
It's 8 o'clock on a Tuesday night.
Time for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
I couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Don't do it, mom, for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Don't do it, mom!
The News
Well, there is no real new news as far as the Kevin Mitnick film goes.
We told you about this last time, that there's a film being made now by Miramax Films based
on the book, if you want to call it that, the book Takedown, which spread all kinds
of myths and myths and myths and myths and myths and myths and myths and myths and myths
If you're able to get more information, please pass it on to us as we'd sure like to do something
about this.
The movement to get Kevin released, he's been in prison now for over three years without
a trial, the movement just keeps getting bigger and bigger, stickers are showing up everywhere
and people are talking about all kinds of amazing things, which hopefully will happen
at some point.
Well, we have, I guess the best thing to do is just to get some factual information out
there, and keep in mind we're in a brand new studio, a second brand new studio, we
went to our interim studio two weeks ago and now we're in what I believe is the final one
because this is a really nice one, so I hope we stay here, and things seem to actually
be working, I probably just jinxed it by saying that, so as soon as I figure out where the
phone is, we're going to call the Bell Atlantic operator, oh, okay, there we go, we're going
to call the Bell Atlantic information operator, and find out just what the number for Miramax
is in New York.
Waiting for the voice of James Earl Jones, it's not going to happen, is it?
Is anyone there on the phone?
Anyone?
Nobody.
Okay, well, let's try this then, apparently what's happened is, I would bet that 411 is
somehow blocked on our phone system, so let's try the backup of 555-1212.
Here we go.
Hi, Manhattan, I'm looking for the number for Miramax Films, please.
Thank you.
Miramax Films, there's actually three listings, one on Beach, Greenwich, and Hudson.
Is there any difference in the listings, are they all the same?
No, they all say the same thing.
Okay, if you give us what looks like the biggest one, maybe one ending in two zeros or something.
The one on Beach, it's 625-5000.
Yeah, that sounds pretty corporate, okay, thank you very much.
You're welcome.
There we have it, 212-625-5000, number from Miramax Films.
If you want to express your satisfaction with the fact that a Kevin Mitnick film is being
made, that it's totally based on fantasy, or maybe you want to express some other sentiments,
it's all up to you.
That number once again, 212-625-5000, we'll be calling them tomorrow during business hours.
All kinds of pages are getting hacked and people are getting words out in all kinds
of different ways.
Now some of them are good and some of them are kind of not so good, because what you
have to understand is that if you're going to go around talking about this case, you
really want to be somewhat based in reality, you want to get the facts straight, you don't
want to do something that is seen as a threat, much like the Yahoo hack of late last year
where people kind of posted a threatening message saying if Kevin Mitnick does not get
out, we're going to take down the internet, things like that.
It doesn't look that good for the cause when people react like that.
We understand people get upset, people get frustrated, but it's just not good for the
cause.
As an example, someone sent us a piece of email about this, it's off the hook.
I spread news and information about Kevin Mitnick almost daily, getting the word out
about the stupidity of the whole thing, but there are lots of people spreading the wrong
info and hurting Kevin's case.
An incident happened to me today on a system that I help admin.
Someone created an account, Mitnick.
They didn't even spell the name right.
We allow the public to create provisional accounts.
He posted the following on our message board in the name of Kevin Mitnick.
Free Kevin.
Kevin Mitnick is one of many hackers that is still being held by the FBI for merely
possessing a red box.
This is quite unfair for us hackers indeedy-do.
Well, number one, there's no red box involved in here.
Number two, it's MIT and ICK.
You can just pretty much go on from there.
The best thing to do is have some authoritative sources.
Right now, the best authoritative source that I believe that we can point to is the
official Kevin Mitnick site, which is www.kevinmitnick.com.
And that's one word, K-E-V-I-N-M-I-T-N-I-C-K.com.
That's the authoritative source for information, various bits of propaganda that the
government sends Kevin's way.
They get posted on that website as well.
In fact, the webmaster's here for that site.
Come on up to the microphone.
Tell us what's new on the Kevin Mitnick website.
Bear in mind, though, I have no idea where these mics come up, so I'm just going to
put them all on and figure out which ones shouldn't be on.
Okay, Phil, are you there?
Yes.
Okay.
I can hear you.
I can hear you, and I'm not sure where I'm hearing you from.
But tell us, you've been doing the web updates now for at least, I guess, a month or so, right?
Yeah.
We've tried to revamp the site quite a bit because there's a lot of information now with
the movie coming out.
There's going to be even a lot more.
Some of the good things about the site now is it's a little bit more proactive.
You can actually go to the site and do some things.
Go to www.kevinmitnick.com.
You can go to the What You Can Do section, and there's lots of neat things like write
to your congressman, write to your senator, the major newspapers, the major television
stations, the major websites, all the way down to donating to his defense fund, which
definitely needs some help.
And, of course, we have the virtual bumper stickers that are showing up all over the
net.
They look exactly like the ones that are showing up all over cars throughout the world.
And if you copy those virtual bumper stickers, you'll also copy the link to that website.
So what we'd like to see is – and feel free to ask your provider to put this on their
main site as well.
You see a free Kevin sticker, you click on that, and right away you go to www.kevinmitnick.com.
We can put these everywhere, on every webpage on the net.
CNN.com can put it on their webpage if they wanted to.
Of course, they probably don't.
But we should be getting it to as many different people as possible.
The reason being, the more people that know about this, the more pressure there is.
Why do you think they sent that nanny back to England today?
You remember the whole case where she was accused of killing this kid and she was found
guilty and everybody was up in arms about it because they didn't think she really
did it?
It was because of the public outcry that she wasn't put in prison and she was sent home.
It's because of public outcry Bernie S. was released as well.
So the public definitely does have some sort of a say in it.
Despite what they may tell you.
They may say that the public has absolutely no input and it's up to the judges and jurors
and things like that.
It's nonsense.
A strong public reaction will most definitely have an effect.
That's why getting the word out is the most important thing we can do.
So, yeah, getting the word out in the proper way.
Now, there was a hacked webpage somewhere.
Some college someplace.
The address was www.bw.edu.
That happened sometime last week.
And basically, someone sent this to us.
It just says, Free Kevin.
Kevin Mitnick remains in federal custody nearly three years after his arrest on hacking charges.
Well, actually it's more than three years.
Three years in February.
Mr. Mitnick has been held without bail in the Los Angeles Metropolitan Detention Center
since his arrest in Raleigh, North Carolina on February 15th, 1995.
He was indicted in 1996 on 25 counts of computer crimes including possession of unauthorized
access devices, computer fraud, causing damage to computers, wire fraud,
and interception of wire or electronic communications.
Now, this causing damage, I have no idea what that's all about.
And that's something that I don't think really has been backed up in any substantial way.
The federal government is apparently using the Mitnick case to instill fear in the minds of computer users
and to discourage activities they consider to be hacking.
The government apparently wishes to encourage those individuals who have merely been accused
of hacking-related offenses to plead guilty rather than face lengthy pretrial detention
without the benefit of bail.
This madness must stop.
More people must be made aware of the fact that if there were no hackers breaking into systems
just for the hell of it, foreign governments would easily be passing through our military computer security systems
due to the fact that when someone hacks a system, they find the bug and patch it.
Unfortunately, people like this are being arrested and not hired by large businesses
and government agencies to help keep our systems secure.
The term hacker has come to mean someone who is bent on destroying the important files and data of others.
This is absolutely not so.
People like this are not only not hackers, but are rejected by the hacker community.
Destroying data is one thing.
Trying to spread an important message is another.
To find out what you can do for Kevin Mitnick, please visit the 2600 website,
and that website will be linking to the Kevin Mitnick website.
This page was not hacked by anyone affiliated with 2600 in any way.
I am using their page only as a reference to get more information.
The original page was not harmed.
You can reach it by clicking here.
Isn't that nice?
The person hacked the page and put a little button for the original page,
so you could go right back to it if you needed to.
I am merely here to help spread a message, not to destroy.
Signed, KKR.
That's an example of, you know, getting the word out in an intelligent way.
So, if you're going to get the word out in unconventional ways such as hacking webpages,
think about how you want to send the message.
Okay, speaking about weird messages.
Let's see what we have here.
Where should we go first?
Okay.
Here's a letter.
Recently I heard that the New York transit people wanted to add an easy pass type system to subway stations.
This came after many people complained that the MetroCard swipe and go system didn't always work.
What they proposed to do was have a smaller card-like device that will read and then debit your account as you pass through a gate.
Just think how much easier your big brother could track you around the city.
Now they could just put up hidden gates around the city and ping your card.
Just like how they catch speeders on New York roads with easy pass.
I was wondering if you heard anything more.
Signed, nobody knows.
Well, nobody around here knows about that.
I don't think that's something that they could keep secret for very long if they were actually doing something like this.
It's not a good idea.
It's not something that I would embrace.
And I don't think very many people that have intelligence would embrace a system like that,
that opens up all kinds of privacy violations.
It's not likely.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be keeping an eye out for it.
It's certainly possible.
It just doesn't seem very likely, especially after putting all this money into the MetroCard system.
I'd have to say, probably, this isn't going to happen.
Not anytime soon, anyway.
Although, with the lunatic we have in office now, I gotta say, anything is possible.
I mean, the latest thing.
The guy wants to build a bomb shelter now for himself and his aides in the World Trade Center
because I guess he knows something's coming.
He knows some kind of holocaust is coming where he's going to have to survive
and order the rest of us to stop squeegeeing windshields or whatever it is that happens to be the mandate of the times.
So, yeah, okay, anything's possible.
That's pretty much where we should leave that.
Here's a letter.
Just finished the May 26th off the hook.
And, yes, it is remarkable that people will buy products with corporate logos
and, in effect, advertise for free.
Wait a minute.
Don't you guys sell T-shirts with your logo?
Okay, I'll continue to wear mine, but only because you gave it to me.
Well, first of all, I don't remember giving anything to this person.
And second of all, if you can't see the difference between wearing a hacker T-shirt
and wearing something that's made by a multinational corporate entity
that doesn't really care about you at all in any way, shape, or form
and that has sweatshops in foreign countries.
I mean, at least our sweatshops are right here at home.
That's the important thing to remember.
So, yeah, there's a slight difference there, I think.
All right, finally, and this is something that's going to get some people's blood boiling.
A computer security firm is so certain of its security prowess
that it is offering to protect its customers with the first ever computer hacker insurance.
That's right, hacker insurance, in the event the customer is successfully invaded by hackers.
ICSA, remember these guys?
These are the guys that rip off people's webpages and call it their own.
In fact, they rip off people's names and call it their own.
They called themselves NCSA for ages until the real NCSA people got so upset at them
that they forced them to change their name to ICSA.
And if you go to their affiliated webpages, you'll see that they link to 2600's hacked webpages
except they block out the 2600 part and put their little logo in its place.
And they've done this to other sites as well.
Anyway, these are the people that are offering computer hacker insurance
because they have such high moral ground.
They're now offering, as part of their True Secure service, insurance against hacker attacks.
ICSA will pay up to $250,000 if a customer's network is hacked into
after it has followed the True Secure criteria, whatever that might be.
This is the first hacker-related insurance, said Peter Tibet.
That's an unfortunate name for him to have.
President of the ICSA.
I mean, it's more unfortunate for Tibetans, I think.
Based in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
It puts our money where our mouth is.
ICSA sells its True Secure service for, get this, $40,000 a year.
So that's the catch.
If you get hacked, you can only get the insurance if you've already paid them $40,000.
Yeah, I see where this is going.
The service, which it has been offering for several years,
for some reason they've just been reported now,
is a series of steps on the service.
Okay, the insurance is new. I get it.
It's a series of steps, methods, and procedures that an ICSA client must adhere to.
Some steps are simple, such as having the server inside a locked room.
Other steps are more complicated,
such as the requirement to have a secure firewall around an internal network.
It's pretty complicated.
But the ICSA does not sell products.
Instead, it recommends a whole range of software that it has approved as secure
and meets its standards through open meetings and debates with all its members,
many of whom develop security products.
Then ICSA tests a client's security by using typical hacker methods
through its 100 or so employees,
none of whom are reformed hackers.
Not a one.
ICSA believes, along with executives at IBM,
that there is no such thing as a reformed hacker.
We spray them with hacker tools and see where their vulnerabilities are, Tibet said,
referring to many of the widely used hacker programs that are available over the Internet
or are shared among hackers.
The average site took about two weeks to get to the place where they meet all our requirements.
After ICSA completes a six-step process to test and improve a company's security,
the customer is deemed secure and will then receive insurance.
Tibet likens the ICSA to the Center for Disease Control
because it tracks all hacker attacks.
I guess that makes us a disease, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
It tracks all hacker attacks and tests every hacker tool and virus its computers can find.
The ICSA also is known for its Emergency Response Center,
which tracks the fallout from known computer viruses
Oh, yeah.
It's what makes the whole computing industry so much fun.
This is Off the Hook.
Manuel Goldstein here with you until 9 o'clock,
and today we have a special guest with us.
You're going to have to figure out what microphone you're at,
but Terzian has ventured all the way into New York City
with a special guest.
Terzian.
He's ventured all the way into New York City
with a story that many of you, I think, should take very seriously
because it involves Bell Atlantic, it involves ISDN,
and it could very easily involve the future.
Some of the things we've been warning you about for a couple of years now,
ever since Bell Atlantic started to move into the New York area
and ever since we started playing around with ISDN,
as many of you know, 9x and now Bell Atlantic
charges a ridiculous amount for data connections on ISDN lines,
a penny a minute per channel.
So if you have a two-channel line, you want to connect at 128k.
This is what they don't tell you in the commercials.
You have to pay a penny a minute times two because it's two channels.
Now, if you're connected 24-7 every day of the week,
seven days a week, 24 hours a day, that's added up.
That's money, several thousand dollars a month.
You can easily get around this by simply doing what is known as data over voice,
which is what we've been recommending for years.
There's nothing illegal about it, despite what some people might fear
because of the way corporate America works.
It's using the technology the way it was intended to be used.
However, you can only achieve 56k per channel,
and that means a total bandwidth of 112k if you use two channels,
but no penny per minute surcharge.
That's the important thing.
So bills of several thousand dollars can be reduced to under $100 very easily
just by using this technique.
Terzian, you have a horror story that occurred to you as you were doing just this.
Right.
Back in 1996, starting in June, I first acquired my SDN service.
I wanted, like everyone else, I wanted to go, go, go
and not wait for these websites to come down really slow.
I also wanted to set up my own internal network,
and back then over 28.8, 33.6, that was impossible.
I mean, telnet connections coming out from that would be horrendously slow.
So I decided I'm going to go with Bell Atlantic's ISDN service.
I already made arrangements with my upstream provider to do data over voice,
and they had the Ascend products that would do that, and everything was happy,
and I ordered my $1,000 Ascend Pipeline 50 back then,
and I already put myself in debt with that,
so I thought everything was going to be great,
and I set up my plain old ISDN service with Bell Atlantic,
which was two B-channels and a D-channel, just as anyone would get nowadays,
and I was off.
I set it all up, and my first bill came in, and it was kind of weird.
I was paying, I believe, something in the area of $50 per month
for just the plain old ISDN service.
There was no per-minute charges.
That was just a flat rate that you can get ISDN for.
Then they tacked the per-minute charges on after that.
When I forgot my first bill, it was like $79, and I called them up,
and I said, Why is my bill $79 when it's 50 cents?
And I was doing voice calls, and they said,
Oh, we've been having trouble with our AMA billing system.
It's just going crazy.
We don't know exactly what it is.
We'll fix it.
What did you expect your bill to be?
$50.
About $50.
Exactly.
That's something to complain about.
I complain about it, too.
Right.
I mean, I watch the bills.
I know how they mess up T1 lines and frame relay and things like that.
So I called them up, and they said, Fine.
They wiped it off the bill.
The next month came in.
I believe it was July, and it was $129.
Oh, no.
I said, This isn't good.
This isn't a very good trend.
No.
So I called them back up again, and I said, Hey, guess what?
You messed up again.
The woman was very nice.
She said, Okay, we'll fix that.
It's our billing system.
Our AMA billing system is broken.
We don't know exactly what's wrong, but we'll wipe it off.
I thought, Hey, this is great.
So I got a bill.
I got bills like that up until September of 1996 when I received a bill for $1,400.
At this point, I knew something was really, really wrong.
So I called them up, and this time they weren't so flexible on the $1,350 difference.
They said, No, I'm sorry.
You're just going to
$1,350.
$1,350 mistake was what I called it.
They swore up and down it was not a mistake.
They found out what it was, that I was making data calls.
Now, wait a minute.
How would they know what kind of calls you were making,
whether they were voice calls, data calls, music calls, whatever kind of calls?
How did they know?
Well, that was my question to them.
I said, How do you know what kind of calls I'm making?
Well, at that point, they kind of panicked
and transferred me way up the line to some really interesting engineers
that needed to be paged and only called me three weeks later.
When I got them on the phone,
they said that their AMA billing system was in some sort of test mode
and was detecting Motorola BitSurfer codes coming across my line,
and it was triggering their AMA billing system into data mode.
They not only were able to tell that you were making data calls,
they knew what kind of data call, what kind of hardware you had?
Well, they never said that they saw Motorola BitSurfer on mine
because I didn't have a Motorola BitSurfer,
but they said, We've heard of this happening with the Motorola BitSurfer.
And it was pretty specific for someone just to say,
with Motorola products or Ascend products,
they said the Motorola BitSurfer with this in its string will make it happen.
So I said, Well, that's nice, but I'm not using Motorola.
So, again, they just claimed that their AMA billing system was broken,
and that's how they found out that,
or thought they found out that I was doing data calls.
So now you have this $1,350 bill,
and they're accusing you of making data calls, which you are doing.
You're making data calls, but you're using data over voice,
which there's nothing wrong with that.
Did you tell them this, or did you just try not to?
I tried not to get them confused.
Bells confuse very easily,
and all they'll do is stick their head in the sand and shake their feet
because they're not up on technology as much as you would think.
With long conversations with the local provisioning manager for ISDN,
they were just trained six months ago on how to handle ISDN for special services.
So I had ISDN for two years before that special services was trained on how to use it.
So that tells you where they're at.
But basically they told me, and I said, No, I've been making voice calls,
and I've got it logged on my end, and I've got it logged on my upstream connections end.
And they said, Oh, no.
And they would shuffle papers and go run to some engineer,
and it would be another two months until I got a call.
So during one of those two-month stints when I didn't hear from anybody,
I decided to give the Public Utilities Commission a call.
They're the government regulating body for Bell Atlantic,
kind of like Bell Atlantic's big brother, if you may.
Right, the equivalent of RPSC in New York.
Right, right.
I called them just to ask them some questions, not do anything formal.
I called them up, and I said, Hey, Bell Atlantic's doing this to me.
Can they do this?
Is there a distinction in your tariff between circuit switch voice and circuit switch data calls?
And the operator had no idea what I was talking about.
Of course not. No, they have no idea. They never know.
Right, so they asked me for my name and whatever, and I thought that was the end of it.
So I was talking to some of the engineers over there,
and they were trying to see if they were going to give me a credit or not,
and we were going back and forth.
And according to the tariff that was in effect at that time, pre-August,
the No. 1, Section 21F, Ordinal Sheet 7, Section C, Paragraph 1, Subsection C,
residential budget or standard local usage option charges applied to circuit switch voice usage,
meaning the non-tariffed charges applied to circuit switch voice usage, which is what I was using.
And that was my question.
It means you were right.
Right. In other words, my circuit switch voice call should have been billed under the prevailing flat rate usage,
not at one or two cents per minute per B channel, as I was actually billed.
It came out, we did the math, they just basically flat billed me for the whole month.
I don't even think they calculated anything.
Someone took a rough estimate and said, charge him this.
Really?
Yeah.
So the only time I was informed that they were listening to my lines is,
we'll just say Mr. A and Mr. J from Bell Atlantic asked to make some tests on my ISDN line
to check the operation of their AMA billing system.
They're asking me to test their billing system.
I mean, do you think there's something wrong with that?
Me.
I mean, go ahead, make your thing work so we can look and see what it does.
So I was kind of, I said, okay, fine, I'll let you test.
And they tested it, and they told me that their AMA billing system had a problem.
They suspected it had a problem, but they never provided me with the results from that test.
Never got a call back, never said, you were right, it's broken, or yes, it's broken.
I never got a single call back.
So in late September or early October, I made another call to the PUC,
and I made a formal complaint, and I said, you know, this is bad.
They're doing bad things to me.
Help me.
And I finally got transferred to somebody who actually took my complaint
and actually wrote down what I said.
The first complaint actually got filed as I was disputing that they could charge me.
Ah.
One of those.
Yes.
So the complaint actually came back to me after I submitted the second complaint and said,
yes, they're allowed to charge you.
Like, thank you.
That was not what I wanted to know.
So I made a second complaint with the correct data in it.
And I didn't appeal the first decision because the first decision was made on the wrong appeal.
So once I made the second decision, I didn't hear anything again.
This is going on for months.
And as this is going on, I'm getting calls in my house saying, this is XYZ Credit Agency.
You owe Bell Atlantic $1,400.
It's being forwarded to ABC Credit Agency.
Wow.
And I'm saying, please stop this.
It's in dispute.
It's in dispute.
I stopped it at a person who bought the debt for $0.01 on the dollar.
I said to him, please stop this debt.
He said, that's fine.
He said, I've got, well, what's $0.01?
He's got $14 on this debt now.
So he said he'd stop it.
Maybe you could explain to us how this works when you go into arrears like this in your credit.
How do people buy the debt?
Well, what happens is Bell Atlantic will hold your debt for a certain amount of time.
When they feel you're a deadbeat or physically dead, they'll sell the debt off to someone else.
Now, there are companies out there who will buy debts for $0.50 on the dollar.
Meaning if you've got a $1,400 debt with Bell Atlantic, they want rid of it.
They've already written it off as a loss.
So they're going to try to reap some revenue.
So they'll sell it off for $700.
And another company will buy it for $700.
Then they'll try to suck it out of you.
And if they can't get it out of you, they'll sell it for $0.25.
And it rolls down the line.
So somewhere, your debt's going to end up being one one-hundredth of what it was.
What I don't understand is this last guy that got it for a penny.
I mean, he's getting how much? $14 for your $1,400 debt?
Right.
What's in it for him? He has to work just as hard to get you to pay $1,400 so he can get $14.
Right.
That's kind of weird.
What it is is he buys the debt for $14.
Oh, he only paid $14.
Right. He pays $14.
Okay.
If I pay the $1,400, he gets all $1,400.
$1,400. I see.
But the chances are, by the time the debt gets to him, he's never going to see that money.
And we had a long discussion.
And he says he's kind of the deadbeat guy.
He gets people who are dead who will never see the money.
Right.
But every now and then, he will get a person like me that does have the money and will pay it.
They just had to put it off for a while.
Right.
So if you're getting more than one person calling you for your debt, and they're different companies,
basically, you can deal with them and say,
well, I don't have the whole $800, but I've got $300 here.
Would you like that?
And for the most part, if your debt's gone long enough, they'll take $300.
They'll take $200.
Some of them even take $30.
So don't let anybody push you around on a debt.
And then when that happens, your credit brackets gets cleared up.
Well, it doesn't get cleared up, but that debt stops.
Your credit shows where it went to.
It won't go any farther.
If you pay someone's debt, then it won't go any farther.
So let's get back to you.
Okay.
So you have this guy that paid $14 for your debt, and he agrees to cut it off.
Right.
He agrees to put a hold on it.
I said, this is in dispute.
Do not move this any farther.
And he said, I really can't move it any farther.
No one's going to pay half a cent on this debt and buy it from me for $7.
So I said, fine.
Thank you very much.
And I moved on.
And on January 27th, the head of the ISDN Special Services Department, we'll just say Mr. L.,
sent a letter to my business associate who was attempting to straighten out the problem with me,
informing him that Bell Atlantic would not issue me a credit.
No reason why.
No mention of the tests.
Nothing about the AMA billing system.
And it appeared to be what had happened was we calculated the dates.
That was the date that the second PUC complaint hit home.
So basically what it was was I went to Big Brother, and I said,
Bell Atlantic's abusing me.
Please make them stop.
Well, when that happens, the PUC will send a letter not to some small department.
They send it right to the executive department of Bell Atlantic, and it rolls downhill.
Well, it obviously got to somebody who was dealing with my case, and they said,
we're not spending any more time on this guy.
He doesn't have a case.
He won't go up against us.
He's paying it.
And they sent me a letter saying, you're paying it.
That was it.
So really that's where hardball started to be played.
Right.
Okay.
I acquired a lawyer who had PUC experience, who was also a PUC employee beforehand.
And once that was in, then we started formulating a game plan
and playing a little bit of hardball with Bell Atlantic.
It was very hard to get a hold of Bell Atlantic after that decision.
It was kind of like, we're done with you.
It's kind of like, you know.
They weren't picking up the phones.
Right.
It was almost like when your parents, if your parents ever said,
I'm disappointed in you.
I'm not talking to you anymore.
Or maybe when kids say, I'm not going to talk to you ever again.
I hate you.
Well, basically that's what Bell Atlantic told me in more or less words, I hate you.
We're not talking to you anymore.
You hate it when big corporations do that.
Right.
So they stomped their feet and held their breath as we slung some things their way.
And then I finally got a call saying that, okay, we give.
We would like to meet with your legal counsel and my legal counsel.
And we did.
All 12 of their lawyers.
All of their lawyers.
Yeah.
With the briefcases.
Just like Mr. Burns or something.
Yes.
That's something.
What do you think made them finally do this?
They realized that I was serious.
Okay.
Were you going to the media at all?
Well, that was one of the things.
I said, now I'm angry.
I said, now I'm going to go to the media.
And we've got you legally.
We've said some things in some letters and on the phone that were just not right.
Some of the accusations you're saying would lead us to believe that you were listening to the phone line.
You can't do that.
And we're going to bust this wide open if something doesn't get done right now.
And basically we put our foot down, and that's what happened.
Now, what was happening with regards to your ISDN connections?
You obviously weren't able to make any phone calls during that period, were you?
Well, that's true.
They did cut off my ISDN service.
Well, they cut it off right after the testing.
They left it on for me long enough so they could grab my packets
and figure out what kind of strings my adapter was sending through
so they could plug it into their billing system and let them know that it's doing data over voice.
But after that, they did yank my ISDN connection, so I had no net connection.
Well, I did buy a modem and connect up, but as far as my site, it was just down.
That's something.
Okay, so you meet with their attorneys.
Right, and we had a long discussion, and a settlement was made,
and I'm very happy with that settlement.
Unfortunately, I did have to sign some paper gagging me from speaking about that settlement,
and I will respect that because I did sign the piece of paper,
but I will tell you that it was a very happy settlement on our end,
and I won't be hearing from them on that issue anymore.
Well, now what I'm concerned about, though, is how many of the people are out there that this has happened to
that haven't done what you've done, that have just sort of taken it
and are either paying a huge amount of money to Bell Atlantic every month
or have simply stopped using the phone lines to connect in that manner.
Right, right.
What I would say to them is don't take any abuse from Bell Atlantic or Ninex or any Bell.
There's actually a website out there if you want to feel better.
It's www.suethebells.com.
We had www.ninexsucks.com.
This one sounds good, too.
Yeah.
It actually has information on these profiteering gluttons, as has been said before by the mentor,
that what they're doing is wrong, and some of it's a state-by-state individual case
and how to proceed with acting on this.
But if you have a PUC in your state or in your country,
some sort of regulatory body that regulates the phone companies,
do not hesitate to call these people.
They will talk to you.
And if you've got a discrepancy on your bill
and a Bell Atlantic operator is telling you you're wrong and you know you're right,
or even if you don't know you're right, talk to the PUC.
They're the ones who draw up the tariffs.
And their number is usually right in front of your phone book.
Right, right.
Just one more other thing about this case.
When you sign up for ISDN now, unfortunately, due to my case, they've changed the tariff.
They went back in August of, I believe, 97,
and they changed the tariff to it doesn't matter what kind of call you establish,
either data over voice or either a voice switch call or a data switch call,
you will be charged $0.02 per minute per B channel on peak time
and $0.01 per minute per B channel off peak time.
And that's in Pennsylvania.
I don't know what it is here in Arlington.
That's not in New York.
I can tell you that right now,
and I don't think something like that would ever be allowed to happen in New York.
Well, it's happening in Pennsylvania.
So you're saying in Pennsylvania right now?
Right now.
Even if you make a data over voice call, you're being charged a penny a minute per B channel.
That is correct on residential ISDN.
That's because of you.
I don't know if I want to take all the blame.
I believe the tariff was in working, but I do believe that I had something to do with getting it out the door.
I don't see how they could get away with that, and that's something I think people need to fight hard.
Right.
Well, I don't see how they can get away with most of their stuff,
and I think people just don't know.
I don't think enough people have looked into ISDN.
ISDN is a great service right now.
If you don't have access to cable-type modems or any DSL technologies, ISDN is the next best thing.
Now, Bell Atlantic does have package prices.
You can get unlimited residential ISDN for $329 a month.
I believe that's the price for last time I checked.
You can buy blocks of time, and they have a little website that shows you.
How much time do you use?
Well, then this is the plan you need.
They're all overpriced.
They're so expensive.
I can give you one hint, and that's look into small business ISDN.
There is a trick.
Okay.
All right.
Well, for our Pennsylvania listeners, I'd like to hear what kind of solutions you might come up with.
Also, people in other parts of the country, since we have listeners all over the place.
Terzian, you can be reached at our 2600 site, right?
That's correct.
People have stories they want to share with you?
That's correct.
How do you spell your name?
It's T-E-R-S-I-A-N.
Kind of like Persian, but with a T.
At 2600.com.
Yeah, I think the best way to deal with this is to just sort of share the stories.
Our number here is 212-209-2900, if I'm not mistaken, because it's a new phone number.
And people, hopefully, all over the place will be calling us and telling stories, sharing stories,
having opinions on this tale of woe by Terzian, who has come here from Pennsylvania,
and probably being targeted by Bell Atlantic right now for some new harassment campaign.
Of course.
Now, you have to pay the penny a minute now?
Actually, I've done the small business trick.
Okay.
I can't explain exactly what that is for fear that they'll clap down on that, too, and I won't have any ISDN service.
But if you're a smart person, you'll read into their small business ISDN and figure out what's going on there.
It's like $49 a month for small business ISDN, and the PUC tariff does not affect that plan.
Okay.
Well, we'll see how that varies from state to state.
212-209-2900, and hopefully we'll get a report from our Internet people seeing how the connections are doing over there.
Let's see how the phones are working this week.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Hello?
Yes.
How are you doing?
Oh, hi.
Hold on a minute, Emmanuel.
Hold on.
I'm calling from L.A.
I'm calling from L.A.
Hold on.
He's calling from L.A.
That's a rebel on the phone there.
It sounds like he's calling a whole lot of different times.
Hold on.
How come we hear so many different rings?
Is this you on every single line?
Eric?
Is this you on every single line?
Oh, God.
Hold on.
I've got to go.
Let me just ask you one question.
Are you listening to the show?
Yes, I am on the net.
Hold on.
All right.
That was a very important answer you just gave.
Hold on.
Determined your future.
Hold on.
How many times are you calling?
He hung himself up this time.
Friends, for the first time in history, I have not hung up on Rebel.
He has hung up on me.
There's your proof.
And Rebel in Los Angeles, hi.
How are you doing?
Good evening.
You're on the air.
That's a tone.
No, we don't want that.
Let's get a...
Look at this.
He was taking up all the phone lines.
Good evening.
You're on the phone.
I mean, you're on the air.
You're on the air.
Let's get a...
Look at this.
He was taking up all the phone lines.
Good evening.
You're on the phone.
I mean, you're on the air.
Okay.
That one's gone.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hi.
It's me again.
Live from L.A.
What kind of a phone system are you using out there in L.A.
that you can call us 20 times?
Where are you running off to?
Come back.
Come back to the phone.
All right?
This is important.
I got some things to tell you.
Yeah.
Well, tell them fast because we're running out of time.
I'm up in L.A. and I'd like to tell you...
The phone lines are now open, people.
212-209-2900.
The phone lines are rebel-free, so, rebel, please make it quick.
All right.
I'll make it quick.
I drove out here from New York City and I noticed when I was driving out...
By the way, I'm in Los Angeles.
I'm sitting on the net.
I'm in North Hollywood, California now.
Oh, the big break finally came through, huh?
And now, how does the AT&T long-distance call completion work?
You know, when I dial 10288, one in area code 555-1212, it says, AT&T could complete the
call within a few minutes.
So, I'm going to dial 10288.
So it's possible to make a connection over ISDN and stay connected and just pay for
that initial phone call, which is about 10 cents, all right?
And if you do it over voice, the voice channel, data over voice, then you do not pay that
silly penny a minute surcharge, at least not in New York.
Other states, they might be trying to change things.
Now let me ask you a question.
Do you think that maybe we're sort of complaining a little too much, that we're trying to get
something for nothing?
No, because I'd like to break down the actual charges, what it actually costs Bell Atlantic
to set up this service.
It runs over copper, and it runs over conditioned lines.
Now it is distance sensitive, so if you're, I think it's 18,000 feet or more from your
local CO, you're not going to be able to get ISDN due to the noise on the line.
But it runs over normal copper.
They have to do some things, they have to do a few things with the switch.
But I don't see, if I want to stay connected 24 hours a day, seven days a week, I don't
see a reoccurring $1,400 charge for Bell Atlantic.
I just, I'm sorry, there is nothing there like that.
That is all profit margin, and that's why they love ISDN so much.
And keep in mind, this is not including the cost that you would pay to your internet service
provider.
Oh yeah, this is in addition, this is your transport cost.
This isn't your access cost.
Right.
It's incredibly high.
It's incredibly high.
It'll be interesting to see how they handle the DSL technologies, and see how they build
that.
I'm very worried about that.
You know, they're going to mess that one up too.
You know, ISDN really has a lot of potential, but if they price it, it's, you know, it's
the Omnipoint Syndrome.
You know, you price something out of reach, people aren't going to get it.
They're going to go to the competition.
And it may not be as good a service, but you know, they're not going to want to pay a huge
amount of money for something.
So that's something that I think we need to keep an eye on.
Has there been any kind of testing of other companies, other local companies?
Well, unfortunately, in my area, it's Bell, or Bell.
There is some other local SEALACs opening up, but they're mainly interested in high
speed now.
They want to set up their fiber loops, and get everything, basically their infrastructure
set up with businesses.
You know, we'll run you two T3s in here, you know, for your huge building if you let us
run your fiber, you know, let us run our fiber loop through here.
For the average listener, that's kind of out of reach.
Well, basically, you know, we'll give you all your phone lines for free, your transport
for free, if you let us set up our local fiber network in your building.
And a lot of them are doing that, and there are some others offering ISDN, but again,
they're staying competitive with Bell.
They figure, well, some, you know, idiots are buying it, you know, let's keep charging
the idiots.
How about cable modems?
Any luck with those?
Cable modems have come a great stretch.
The deployment by At Home and Time Warner's Roadrunner service is widespread, and it's
getting bigger.
I've seen cable modems in action, I actually work with them at my job, and the telco return
modems work beautifully with 256 guaranteed and bursting speeds up to T1 with a, you
know, a 56K return, it's marvelous.
But again, it's company sensitive.
You've got to have a company in your area that's willing to support the cable modems,
and...
Plus, I hear there's a problem with censorship of lots of things.
Well, that is up to the ISP.
Now, I can't speak for At Home or Roadrunner, but, you know, our service, we don't block
anything.
We have quite a few hundred cable modems.
Terzian, I want to thank you very much for coming in today and telling us all this information.
It's something I think hopefully we'll take as a warning and keep a bit more alert, talk
to our public service commissions, and talk to the media, and hopefully talk to you as
well, terzian at 2600.com.
If you want to send something to the radio show itself, OTH, for Off The Hook, at 2600.com.
And we'll see you again next week, same time, same place.
Good night.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
I can't make a call.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
I couldn't get much worse, but if I could, I would.
I'll do it all for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
I'll do it now!
I'll do it now!
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