And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI.
In New York.
Time is 8 o'clock.
Time for Off the Hook.
And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI.
And a very good evening to everybody.
The program is Off the Hook.
It's Manuel Goldstein here with you for the next hour.
Updating you on the various topics of cyberspace that may be of interest in this day and age.
And boy, do we have a lot of them tonight, as always.
More news on the script for the up-and-coming horror film, although we consider it a horror film for different reasons.
Isn't that right, Phil?
That is correct.
Phil has done something, taken a bold step this past week.
And I hope lots of people take similar steps, wrestle with their conscience a bit, and just strike out and do what needs to be done.
What was that bold move you made this week?
I joined the Skeet Olrich fan club.
Oh, boy.
I can't believe you can actually say it.
So, boy, that's amazing.
So, now, Skeet Olrich, of course, is the actor that is going to be playing Kevin Mitnick in this film.
That's correct.
And in case you missed it the last couple of weeks, the film is based on the book Takedown, but it does the impossible.
It actually exceeds Takedown in inaccuracy and overall badness.
And I'd like to think that Skeet Olrich, who has been selected to play Kevin Mitnick, will be concerned with this.
The fact that he's portraying a character that, while having a real name, is completely inaccurate, fraudulent and libelous, I think.
What's odd about this, you know, I have this discussion with a lot of people and they say, well, you know, it's not really libelous because Kevin Mitnick is a public figure.
And, you know, that's a point to be made.
But how did he become a public figure in the first place?
How did this computer hacker, who has been in prison for over three years, almost three and a half years now, without a trial, with no visitors, with no bail, how is this person a public figure?
Well, because a particular writer for The New York Times wrote front page stories about him.
And that very same writer is the person who wrote Takedown, the book, which is now the film that, because he's a public figure, he can now use Kevin Mitnick's name.
It's just, it's extremely self-serving and I think it's something that's misleading the American public and certainly will if the film is made in the current script format.
I also discovered something very interesting doing some searching on the web for Howard Rodman.
First of all, we discovered that Howard Rodman died in 1985.
So that made it kind of interesting.
And then we realized that Howard Rodman had a son, Howard Rodman Jr.
So that's, I'm pretty sure.
I'm not entirely sure, but I'm pretty sure Howard Rodman Jr. is the person who wrote this script.
And Howard Rodman Jr. has also finished a script recently for a sequel to the film Carrie.
Remember that horror film Carrie, based on Governor Hugh Carrey?
No, actually, actually no, it was a horror film, just Carrie, and now there's Carrie 2.
Although, you know, I think it's kind of funny.
The exorcist, the girl's name was Regan or Regan or something like that.
And then you had Carrie, but never mind.
So you had Carrie 2, which just got finished.
Now, guess who he co-wrote the script with?
Raphael Moreau, author of Hackers.
Very strange, I think.
A strange coincidence.
And what else is strange?
You know, that's the old Pacifica News theme.
I don't know if people realize that.
How about that?
Steve Reich underneath us here.
Boy. Anyway, just a blast from the past there.
Yes, what's interesting about that is that the film opens in virtually the same way.
Hackers opens with looking at a kid in the past and then hearing the results of a trial.
And then moving to the present.
Exactly the same way that Takedown opens.
Same exact format.
So I think there's definitely something going on.
I don't know exactly what.
But we're certainly going to look into that more.
Another thing that we seem to have discovered is that Skeet Ulrich lives in New York.
So he could be listening to us right now.
That's right.
So if anybody out there knows Skeet, if you know anybody named Skeet, it's probably him.
Because I don't think there's that many people.
You know, we don't want to pressure anybody or intimidate anybody.
But we do want people to be aware of the facts.
And right now, I don't think he's aware of the facts.
I don't think he realizes that he's portraying a part of somebody that's supposed to be factual,
when in actuality, it's 180 degrees off what the script is leading people to believe.
Now, what did you discover from joining the Skeet Ulrich fan club?
Well, I've got some Skeet facts.
Skeet facts?
Yes.
You ever wonder why they call him Skeet?
You know, I always sort of avoided that subject.
But what was it?
Well, the reason why they call him Skeet.
Well, first it was Skeeter, Mosquito.
And then we're sorting the Skeet.
The name stuck with him because he would run so fast in Little League when he was very small.
So I guess he'll be able to use those skills in Takedown as he's portraying Kevin Mitnick to run from the FBI.
Well, there is that scene where he portrays an athleticism not previously seen.
Yeah.
So I guess that will be his big moment where he gets to run across.
But there's also that part where he slams a garbage can lid into Tsutomu Shimomura's head,
which is interesting considering they never met and considering Kevin has never been violent or accused of violence in any way.
You know, things like that.
I mean, yes, I would have no problem with this film whatsoever if it was fictitious as it is.
But it's using people's real names.
And like I said last week, how would you feel if you just woke up and all of a sudden there's a film about you with your real name, your town, all the facts about you correct, except who you are is wrong and the things you do are not what you would do.
It's a nightmare.
And when you're in prison for as long as Kevin has been in prison for, the nightmares just never seem to end.
You know, this is this is bordering on on torture at this point.
And there are rumblings of interest from various groups right now.
I believe ACLU and EFF have not taken an interest at all in this.
No.
But I think that's going to change when the publicity starts getting a little bit louder.
I'm sorry.
We have a we have someone burst into the studio.
Yes.
No, we were talking about this yesterday, about the fact that the film is based on a real person and somehow uses actual events.
Who are you?
Well, my name is Mojo.
Mojo.
Anyway, sorry guys.
And you're here from California.
I'm here from California.
I miss Grace Papaya, so I had to come back.
So we were talking about the way the script is definitely making a huge blur of the line between reality and fantasy, especially the ending.
It has an ending when there's no ending to the actual events.
And we're discussing, OK, Kevin Mitnick is a public figure, so maybe they can get away with it.
But I was just thinking, well, when the tabloids do stories on public figures that aren't true, they have successfully sued the tabloids for slander.
So this sounds like it sounds like a direct analogy for what's happening in this movie.
But the tabloids are supposedly newspapers.
They're giving you the news.
Now, this is supposedly entertainment.
And I'm sure they're going to say at the end that certain scenes were manufactured that was based on reality, but some things didn't really happen.
That's their way out of that, you know.
But at the same time, you know, you can do that.
But you generally have to have permission of the people you're portraying or they have to be so famous that, you know, it doesn't really matter.
Yeah. Or dead or whatever.
But this is a case of somebody who can't defend himself because he's in prison.
And I think it's just, you know, you're taking advantage of somebody really in a bad way.
And we just want those facts to get out.
You know, we just want people to know that.
I mean, I'd be curious to go and look at recent either theatrical films or television movies about you when they say based on actual events.
I wonder if any of them have taken the liberties that this script has.
Have any of them ever gone this far in their distortion of the truth and not even distortion of the truth and just completely making things up?
Interesting. I'd like to read an article, actually, that appeared on ZDTV written by none other than Kevin Paulson.
And I don't know if you remember, Kevin Paulson was locked up in prison for quite some time himself for basically doing some nasty things like staging radio contests so he could win a Porsche and various other types of things.
Nothing violent again, but, you know, stealing in various ways.
They wanted to tack on espionage.
They wanted to keep him in prison the rest of his life.
Fortunately, he got out of that.
Unfortunately, he's out now and he's doing productive things, and I think he's writing some pretty good articles for Ziff Davis.
Funny thing is, he's not allowed to use a computer.
So while he has all these stories up on the Web, he can actually look at them himself.
In fact, he can't even upload them himself.
But he did a story on the whole Mitnick script.
The screenplay portrays Mitnick as pure malignance.
He is Shimomura's evil doppelganger, the hidden dark side of his own soul.
The demon grimly reaches out from the netherworlds of cyberspace to terrorize innocent people.
The story has precious little in common with real life, but it borrows heavily from the horror and slasher film genres.
Typifying the script is a sinister phone call Mitnick makes to Shimomura that we won't read here because it's laced with obscenities.
But it's basically, you know, we trace the call.
It's coming from inside the house, you know, that kind of that kind of mood to it.
The takedown script compares best with Silence of the Lambs, like cannibal to cannibal lector.
Mitnick is something less than human, while at the same time something more.
He is utterly remorseless, totally devoid of conscience.
He can kill with a computer and someday might.
When he hacks Shimomura's system, thunder booms dramatically in the background as his fingers move, quote, faster than any human can type.
Shoot at 12 frames per second.
Yeah, Shitomo is able to end the terror only by confronting his own dark side, using Mitnick's techniques and skirting the law to bypass the hapless FBI agents who provide the movie's comic relief.
He closes in on Mitnick in Raleigh, North Carolina, but not before the demon tampers with online medical records.
Screwing up the lives of total strangers is something the script author clearly knows a little about.
In addition to demonizing Mitnick, the script makes a minor villain out of eunuchs expert John Gilmore, pokes fun at electronic civil libertarian John Perry Barlow and describes FBI agent Stan Ornelas as rumpled and potbellied.
The real life Ornelas is an impeccable dresser who looks like he does his crime fighting at the local gym.
Names have not been changed to protect the innocent.
The movie ends with Shitomo visiting his nemesis in a maximum security penitentiary.
After our hero struggles in vain to make sense of the motives of a monster, Mitnick issues a chilling warning.
I'll be seeing you. All I need is a dime and a phone. Sometimes, if I'm lucky, I don't even need the dime.
He was shy when he was younger. He would never ask a girl out at the prom because he thought they would say no.
Also, another skeet fact, his dream is to make enough money to buy a picket fence farm in the quiet country to raise a family.
A picket fence farm? What does that mean?
A picket fence farm in the quiet country to raise a family.
What, they make picket fence? What does that mean? I don't understand.
I think they mean that white picket fence that we all dream about one day.
He basically just wants a picket fence attached to his property is what he wants.
In the quiet country to raise a family.
But no real farm.
Yeah, just a fence.
So he just wants a house in suburbia, it sounds like.
Okay, his needs are simple.
And he's on his way there.
Yeah, yeah, I suppose.
And, you know, all luck to him. God bless and all that kind of thing. No problem.
But, you know, if you're going to ruin people's reputations, you best know that you're doing that.
That's really the only thing.
It's getting to the point, since this thing, tomorrow is July 1st.
This thing starts filming at the end of July in North Carolina, I believe.
We don't have exact dates yet. We will be getting those.
We're talking about things, simultaneous picketing, New York, Los Angeles, Raleigh, various things like that.
If you want to get involved, please contact us.
Email address, oth at 2600.com.
You can call us, 516-751-2600.
Hit a zero to go directly to our answering machine where we can get your name and address and number or whatever.
And you can also write to us at 2600 Magazine, which is PO Box 752, Middle Island, New York, 11953.
Or you can even write to us here at WBAI.
Although, you know, I don't know where my mailbox is yet in this new studio.
So I could have mail, but I don't know where it is.
It's off the hook, WBAI, 120 Wall Street, New York, New York, 10005.
So that's the latest as far as that goes.
I don't know. I have the script here still if anybody wants to, you know, thumb through it and find funny parts.
We sort of tore it apart last week, but, you know, we can continue.
I'll just pass it around if people want to look through it and find anything interesting or that we didn't touch upon for whatever reason.
Racism, yes. Lots of racism.
Well, Kevin Mitnick is a renowned racist. We all know that, right?
Everything you could possibly imagine that he's guilty of.
You know, it's all in there, you know.
This guy is a menace to society. He has to be locked up forever, you know.
I'm wondering now if there's a real Hannibal Lecter somewhere that's like really a nice guy, you know, that got totally demonized in a film.
Think about it. I mean, all these people are going to see this.
They're not going to know who Kevin Mitnick is.
They're going to know who Kevin Mitnick is from the film.
They're not going to realize that this, you know, it's real life.
And they're going to read about Kevin Mitnick.
And they're going to say, oh, that guy in the film, he should be locked away forever.
It's really sad.
What else has Skeet been in?
Well, the last film that I saw him in was As Good As It Gets.
He was in Scream, wasn't he?
He played one of the villains.
I didn't see Scream.
He played the murderer, I thought.
I didn't see Scream.
Well, every time you hear an interview with an actor who's played a real person, they always do.
And it seems logical that they research the person they're playing.
So if he's done even a day's worth of research into Kevin Mitnick, he'll know that he's not really playing Kevin Mitnick.
It really depends where he gets the research.
If he reads Takedown, he's not going to get much of a different view than what's in the script.
But he'll at least raise the big question, wait a minute.
We have a big ending in our film which makes a decision about our character.
We've called him guilty.
You know what?
Yeah, that never really happened.
That's true, too.
But again, you know, he might assume that since the book came out a couple of years ago that it's happened since.
Well, you figure he just asked somebody.
Why don't we try and get a copy of The Fugitive Game to Skeet Ulrich?
We need to get in touch with him.
Well, let's get a copy of the book first.
Maybe he'll call in tonight.
That would be nice.
If anybody knows how to reach him, please call us after the show or e-mail us.
And, you know, we'll happily do this.
Because, you know, we want people to just be aware of this.
We realize there's guilty people here and there's innocent people here.
We think Skeet is not one of the guilty people.
He's simply an actor that's been asked to betray somebody.
And, you know, he's also one of the few people that has the power to do something about this.
So hopefully we can turn some heads as far as this thing goes.
Okay, moving to other news.
We're going to take a lot of phone calls, too, because we haven't been doing that in the last couple of weeks because of all this news.
And we certainly want to give our listeners a chance to voice their opinions.
Our number is 202-209-2900.
We'll take phone calls in about five minutes.
Some bad news on the micro-broadcasting front.
We've been following this for a couple of years, actually.
At 6.15 p.m. on Monday, June 22nd, four FCC agents and two U.S. Marshals
executed a search and seizure warrant at the studios of Radio Mutiny,
which was West Philadelphia Pirate Radio, operating at 91.3.
I was in their studios last time I was in Philadelphia.
Really a bunch of nice people.
They hosted the micro-broadcasting conference, which a number of us went to.
Now here's the interesting thing.
The agent in charge of the raid was none other than Richard Lee, FCC Chief of Compliance.
And those of you who went to the micro-broadcasting conference might remember him as the speaker.
And, boy, he certainly showed his true colors.
Since the station was not scheduled to go on the air until 7 o'clock,
no one was present at the four-story attic studio when U.S. Marshals broke the padlock on the door.
As a result, no one was arrested or fined.
Before seizing the 20-watt transmitter.
20 watts. This is what they're worried about.
20-watt transmitters.
I mean, it makes you think.
You have all these radio stations being owned by the same people.
And they're worried about a 20-watt station.
What's that going to interfere with?
There's nothing on that frequency in the first place.
It's sad.
You have cities where the majority of stations are owned by the same corporation.
They compete with each other in the same building.
They own the newspapers.
They own the cable stations.
They own the networks.
What are we moving towards here?
It's really not good.
So, yeah, they confiscated the 20-watt transmitter, audio gear, antenna.
FCC agent actually turned the equipment on and personally broadcast something to the effect
that the station operating at 91.3 megahertz is operating illegally in violation of FCC regulations
and is being officially shut down by the Federal Communications Commission.
He went on the air and said this.
Committing an illegal act right there.
Can you believe that?
Was it with their equipment?
I'm going to turn your microphone on.
Was it actually with their equipment?
Of course.
What, do you think they brought their own pirate station?
Yeah, it was with their equipment.
That's rather interesting being that they're confiscating the equipment.
I wonder if somebody got a tape recording of that.
Yeah, that'd be very interesting.
I'm sure they could use that in some kind of defense.
Anyway, a volunteer for the station heard this strange broadcast and rushed to the studio in time
to see Richard Lee posing for photographs in front of Radio Mutiny's pirate flag.
Like a fisherman with his catch.
Pretty much.
Interesting.
This is the second occasion the FCC's self-described top cop broadcast over Radio Mutiny
in violation of his own commission's regulations.
In March, the East Coast Micro-Broadcasting Conference was hosted by the station in Philadelphia
and a panel discussion on legal topics, which Lee asked to participate in,
was broadcast live at Radio Mutiny by a studio at the Transmitter Link.
In fact, some of the same people that work on broadcasting this show over the Internet
got that to broadcast over the entire Internet.
And that was pretty cool.
You know, it's funny because we all thought we were participating in open dialogue there.
But what you have to realize is that federal agents are always federal agents.
They are there to gather information.
They are there to do their job.
So you have to keep that in mind.
And I'm sure this guy got a lot of information from the Micro-Broadcasting Conference
that he was able to use against the radio station, which is now shut down.
FCC officials had visited the station in an unprecedented five separate occasions
over the previous eight-month period, but were always denied entry without a warrant.
Well, this time there was nobody there, and they basically kicked in the door.
Now it gets worse.
As many of you know, the station here in New York, which was called Steel This Radio,
is not on the air. I haven't heard them in a long time.
But the grandfather of all micro-broadcasting stations, Free Radio Berkeley,
has also been shut down.
They've been on the air for years, years, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
And this was a station that was fighting the battle for everybody
and basically saying because we're operating under 100 watts
and the FCC does not license anything under 100 watts,
we are not in violation of FCC rules.
The judges agreed with them, but now things seem to have changed.
Free Radio Berkeley, a controversial radio station that has been broadcasting without a license,
has gone off the air after a federal court judge ruled
that it was transmitting radio signals illegally.
The ruling ends five years of court battles by the FCC
to stop the small pirate radio station from using the public airways
without getting a proper license.
The station, KFRB, Free Radio Berkeley,
operated at a maximum voltage of 60 watts at 104.1 on the FM dial.
Again, there was nothing on that frequency.
I was out there when they were broadcasting, did not interfere with anything.
U.S. District Judge Claudia Wilkin ordered an injunction against the radio station on Tuesday,
preventing Stephen Dunifer, the founder of the station,
from making radio transmissions within the United States
or enabling such radio transmissions to occur.
Hallie Hammer, who was a programmer at the station, said yesterday,
actually this was about a week ago,
that as a result of the ruling, the station has decided to go off the air
because anybody who disobeys the injunction faces three years in prison
and a $10,000 fine.
Dunifer could not be reached for comment.
Supporters of Free Radio Berkeley have always maintained
that it is their right under the First Amendment to broadcast without a license.
According to Hammer, Wilkin ruled that because the station
never applied for an FCC license or waiver,
First Amendment rights were not applicable.
This injunction merely gives more power to the big stations,
Jesse Palmer, attorney for Free Radio Berkeley founder Stephen Dunifer said.
In a statement issued after the ruling, FCC Chairman William Kennard said
this ruling will send a message to pirate broadcasters to obey the law.
How do you obey the law if you're a pirate broadcaster?
It's kind of set against you.
I am pleased that U.S. District Court Judge Claudia Wilkin
has issued a permanent injunction against Stephen Dunifer
from broadcasting without an FCC license
and from taking any actions to enable others to broadcast without a license.
Kennard stated, this decisive court action puts to rest any doubts
about the FCC's authority to manage the public airwaves
to prevent interference and protect the public's safety.
What a load of garbage.
They didn't interfere with anything.
And this public safety nonsense, basically they're saying
because air traffic controllers use frequencies that are FM quality, I think,
or in the FM band someplace above 108.
The way it works is if a pirate is operating a station
that isn't properly filtered or maintained,
you can actually have harmonics go into rather interesting frequency ranges
like air traffic control, which becomes a problem.
But stations like Free Radio Berkeley were very tightly run.
They had a very clean signal.
They're under 100 watts.
They're not spuriously emitting anywhere.
Well, I remember Agent Lee, Richard Lee, was asked disappointedly
at the micro-broadcasting conference how many complaints have there been
about any interference to air traffic controllers,
and he totally ducked the question, never gave an answer at all.
I don't think there's been a single one.
So, yeah, that's just, it's very misleading to say that.
You know, the public safety is in jeopardy here.
Kennard stated that in the past two years, the FCC has been successful
in shutting down more than 200 pirate radio stations.
I wonder, you know, if there's 200 stations going on in the air,
maybe people have something to say,
and maybe there's no other opportunity for people to say things.
Just go through the FM dial after the show.
Go through the FM dial and see how many stations are doing something different.
We used to have a station over at the far end of the dial play Caribbean music.
They just moved them to the AM dial, and it's so sad
because you ever hear Caribbean music on AM?
It sounds awful. You can't make out certain things.
And they replaced it with a commercial station.
So it's just one more alternative voice, gone.
All the alternative voices have been silenced one by one.
You know, I'm sure our name is on the list someplace.
But we have a lot of listeners. We have a lot of support.
Let's hope that kind of fate doesn't meet us.
Well, can the FCC, have they, I'm sorry if this question is ignorant,
but have they expressed interest, or is there any way they can control anything
that goes over the Internet?
Well, not yet.
Not yet. They're working on it.
I mean, Internet broadcasting is basically the new voice.
Believe me, if they had control from the beginning,
it would be a totally different game than it is now.
If people hadn't, hackers and various other programmers
had not controlled the way the Net developed,
if it had been in the hands of the FCC and the government and the corporations,
you would not see what they consider anarchy now.
You would not see people broadcasting whatever they want,
or having freedom of speech.
You'd see a tightly controlled, fee-regulated type of system,
very similar to the airwaves.
Because at the moment, the Internet definitely levels the playing field.
Absolutely.
I mean, any you or I could broadcast a radio station
that gets as much attention and has as much visibility
as a professional radio station.
And it looks like the FCC is just trying to,
well, for them anyway, the party's over.
I mean, the Internet broadcasting will probably be the way it goes in the future.
But you see, that keeps out a lot of people that are casual listeners.
You have to have a setup. You have to know what you're doing.
You can't just turn on the radio and listen.
Well, for now, that's true.
But as the years go by, that probably will be the way it is.
So it seems like we really should focus our attention
to make sure that no one's going to try and manipulate Internet broadcasting
the way the FCC controls airway broadcasting now.
Well, gee, you have the same companies offering cable modem access now,
and all the high-speed access to the Net.
It seems like it's getting in control of the same people yet again.
All your independent Internet service providers are in danger
because how can they compete? How can they compete with things like that?
How can they compete with the speeds and the technology?
It all boils down to money.
It all boils down to how much you can do and how many people you can sway over.
The AOLs are always going to win in the end.
Well, that is interesting because the FCC supposedly stops its broadcasting
for public safety.
But what you bring up is interesting because if the commercial companies
wind up controlling the Internet and accessibility,
they'll be restricting the broadcasting purely for commercial purposes
just so they can be the only ones to be broadcasting a show.
In other words, it's to cut out the competition.
So I guess the same problem could arise but with completely different motives.
The FCC always says they have our best interests at heart, which is nonsense.
I don't know who they're talking about.
I wish everybody could have heard Free Radio Berkeley
because it's a small area. It just reached Berkeley.
You couldn't get it in San Francisco.
But when you listened to it, they were talking about real issues,
things that affected the people of Berkeley.
And they had enough material for somebody to come in 24 hours a day,
seven days a week and do a show.
And why not?
Why can't people be given that kind of freedom to go in
and play their own diverse type of music?
You don't hear so many types of music because it's just not marketable,
doesn't make money.
I heard the same complaint over something as what I consider mainstream
as big band music.
You don't hear that on FM because there's no money to be made.
Well, why not? It sounds great on FM.
So what if there's no money to be made?
People want to hear it. A lot of people want to hear that.
But because nobody wants to sell commercials,
it's all become corrupted.
It's really sad.
In closing out, Carol Denny, a musician who volunteered for the radio station,
said the FCC has been cracking down on stations that broadcast
at less than 100 watts since 1980.
She said there was plenty of room on the band for these types of stations,
but the FCC wants to sell space on the band for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
More than that, actually.
The real issue is that they can't profit off of micro-broadcasting.
Denny said once you lose the profit, everything changes.
People don't talk so fast and there's more music.
Unfortunately, that's 100% accurate.
All right, very quickly, looking at a couple of stories in today's daily news.
A Manhattan electronics repairman allegedly used his high-tech machinery
to clone the MetroCard,
the first known duplication since the $700 million system was unveiled four years ago.
The perpetrator's name is Hai Quang Wu.
He was arrested Friday and charged with forgery,
according to Queens District Attorney Richard Brown.
Brown said Hai used altered equipment at the Upper East Side Video and Audio Repair Shop
where he worked to reproduce a full-value MetroCard's magnetic strip
on a second valueless card.
He was not in the business of manufacturing these things and distributing them,
said a law enforcement source who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Again, why?
Why do you have to be anonymous to say something like this?
He was kind of like an electronics computer hack type of person.
Now, this is good.
This person sees the difference.
You see this?
Unfortunately, they're afraid to admit who they are,
but they see the difference between somebody who's in the business
of manufacturing these things and distributing them
and somebody who's an electronics computer hacker type person.
There's a difference.
This person gets it.
Now, hopefully, this poor guy is not going to spend the next three years in jail
because he figured out the system.
He wasn't selling the things.
He simply had figured out a way.
Maybe he was using it himself.
I don't know.
Make him pay the fare, whatever.
But I'd like to know what he figured out.
He should tell everybody what he figured out.
Make the system better.
See what we can learn from that.
The source said Heye had cloned fewer than 10 of the electronic fare cards
which were used a few times each by his pals.
All right.
So a few people went on it.
It was unclear when he began making the alleged duplications,
but the cloning marked the second breach this year of the system.
The other one was when somebody figured out a way to fold the card,
which we never got full details on.
News of the alleged cloning comes days before the unveiling of $17 weekly
and $63 monthly unlimited ride MetroCard passes.
You know, I was asking someone on the way over here,
what happened to the daily cards?
They announced daily cards along with the weekly and the monthly,
$4 for a daily card,
and now all of a sudden I don't see any mention of it.
It's as if it was stricken from history.
But I searched on the web, and sure enough,
they did announce that there would be $4 cards
the same time they made these announcements,
and they said it would be in July.
So, you know, did they wipe that out?
Did they throw it into the garbage and pretend it never happened?
If anybody out there knows, please let us know.
Authorities said Hai was caught after Metropolitan Transportation Authority computers
noticed the same card showing different values simultaneously.
MTA officials downplayed the cloning.
We can see duplicates in the system, and we locked them out.
You may get one free subway ride, but then the next free ride is to jail.
Oh, what a wonderful line there.
Didn't know the subway went to jail, but yes, it sure does.
And finally, in the news,
a teenage hacker pleaded guilty in Manhattan federal court yesterday
to stealing several secret passwords from hundreds of customers
of the nation's largest Internet service, America Online.
I think just having to admit that is embarrassment enough.
There shouldn't be any kind of penalty.
Yeah, I mean, come on already.
The hacker, whose name was not divulged because he is a juvenile,
surrendered to the FBI's computer crime squad
and pleaded guilty to one count of juvenile delinquency.
He was released without bail.
It's funny how being released without bail and being held without bail are totally different things.
There's been confusion.
When I tell people that Kevin Mitnick is held without bail or was arrested without bail,
they think he's out.
They think there was no bail.
No, there was no bail.
He's not allowed to have bail.
He can't even get a trial to get bail.
If he got a trillion dollars from Donald Trump, they would not let him out.
What was the exact quote for when they denied him bail?
Denied.
Just denied?
That was the whole quote.
No explanation.
They didn't deny him bail.
They denied him a bail hearing.
They denied him the right to have somebody say denied when he asked for bail.
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah, that's very interesting.
Anyway, he was released without bail and agreed to let the FBI keep his computer.
That's how they get their computers.
You know that.
Oh, sure, guys.
They wanted his computer, so he let them keep the computer and the software he used
to then have more than 500 precious passwords between February and April.
Precious, yeah.
And he faces up to five years probation.
AOL executive Tatanya Gao said this case is one of a handful nationwide
in which a hacker has been busted for using a program to steal passwords.
It's a game in some respects to see how many passwords they can collect.
The hacker sent a so-called Trojan horse program to AOL users via e-mail disguised as a message from AOL.
When the customer downloaded the message, the hacker was able to read the customer's keystrokes,
including the user's password.
Anybody hear of anything like that?
Well, it's entirely possible.
I'm not on AOL.
I'm not aware of the actual AOL software, but Trojans have been around for a very long time,
especially keystroke grabbers.
It's entirely feasible.
I just have a feeling that the people who actually download these messages and very gullibly...
Is that a word?
Oh, yeah.
Especially in the AOL world, it's okay.
I bet it is.
Probably spelled with capitals alternating and so forth.
Exactly.
But to actually run something like that...
Gee, I guess it's okay.
It comes from AOL.
I don't know.
You have to use some degree of instinct here.
How many times have people been told not to download things and run them?
How many times?
Well, hopefully we won't see people going to prison for these crimes
because they really are crimes of, if not intelligence, just experimentation of some sort.
And there's a big difference between that and actual physical theft.
I mean, what are you going to do with 500 AOL passwords?
You're not going to use the system 500 times more than you do now.
I hope not.
Right, but I think an interesting thing to remember in this case is that he was convicted
and accused of having the passwords, not actually using them.
And that's always an interesting thing is they try and imply what he could have done,
but he actually didn't do anything with them.
And that's what a lot of people are being convicted of, what they could have done.
That's why they're being sentenced.
You could have totally turned off the nation's power grid.
Therefore, you did.
That kid in Chicago years ago got sentenced to jail because he stole software worth millions of dollars.
He got sentenced as if he stole millions of dollars.
All he did was copy a file.
He didn't make anything out of it.
So as long as judges have no understanding of what it is they're dealing with here,
you're going to continue to see cases like this.
Injustices like the Mitnick film, it's just going to keep going on.
That's why you need people like us to tell you what's really going on.
Getting back to the Mitnick film for a moment, I may make a point.
I'm going through the script, and I seem to have missed the parts where they mention John Markoff.
Well, that's because they don't.
They only mention him once when the story comes out.
It's amazing how they totally duck that part of the whole thing.
They mention it when there's a front-page story about Mitnick,
and the only thing Mitnick is upset about is that the front page is below the fold.
Oh, like when it's sitting in the machine?
Believe me, I was talking to Kevin when this story came out.
He was upset by the fact that it came out, not that his picture was below the fold.
When you have a front-page story in the New York Times saying that you're on the run with your picture on it,
it's time to worry.
It really is.
Considering what he was being accused of at the time,
it didn't make any sense to put a story like that on the front page.
But since now it was on the front page, they can write a film.
The same people can make money with a film because he's a public figure.
It never ends.
Where is it going to end?
It just keeps happening.
There'll be a TV series next.
Kevin Mitnick escapes every week.
We try to track him down.
And he bashes somebody else in the head with a garbage can.
Did you know that USA is making a series out of the film The Net?
Oh, really?
Yes.
I don't know how they're going to stretch that out, but they are doing it.
It was a fun film.
I'll say that.
It was interesting.
Although I don't understand the odds of crashing into the fake FBI guy when she was driving down the road like that.
She gets into a car crash with this person that's hunting her down.
It's about the same odds as Kevin Mitnick being able to meet Jim O'Meara with a garbage can lead.
Well, that just never happened.
There's going to be a sequel.
It's going to be called When Hackers Attack.
That should be available soon.
You can order the video from what I understand.
All right.
Let's take some phone calls.
212-209-2900.
My apologies for taking so long to get to the phone calls.
We have so much to talk about.
I bet the first call is going to be Rebel.
Do you want to just get it over with?
All right.
Let's get it over with.
Good evening.
You're on the radio.
Good evening.
Oh, you're not Rebel.
No, I'm not.
Excellent.
Very nice.
Ed from Brooklyn.
Ed from Brooklyn.
How are you tonight?
The answer to your Metroquad question, the $4 a day one.
Yes.
It's only going to go to the tourists by way of the hotels.
Are you kidding me?
Kidding you not.
That's Pataki's take on that now that they've decided not to give it to us plebeians.
When was this announced?
I totally missed this.
I think it appeared in the New York Daily News maybe a week or two ago.
I heard it on WBAI even earlier than that.
So at some point, not forget where and which program.
So they're going to exist.
They're just going to be in limited supply.
I would suggest that somebody could make maybe some nice bucks by buying them up at the hotels
and charging $4.25, $4.50 for them.
Sure.
Absolutely.
For those of us out here in the outer boroughs who'd like to get a hold of them for our daily trips.
Absolutely.
And there's nothing illegal about that either.
Not yet.
I mean, if they're going to do something stupid like this.
Not yet.
I mean, that was something I would have actually gone and bought.
It was a good deal.
It made sense.
Yeah.
So I guess that's why they're not going to do it.
I mean, nowadays I do make more than two trips.
And certainly three trips you break even.
Uh-huh.
That's something.
By the way, has BAI bribed Bell Atlantic?
This phone has been ringing a long time and it didn't even kick me off.
No.
No.
We have a new system.
We use a new phone company now.
Ah.
And we don't use Bell Atlantic at all.
So they don't have that.
For New York crawlers, you don't have to worry about timing out anymore.
Ah, great.
Yeah.
Okay.
Good to hear that.
Yeah.
We're happy with that.
And we got our phones to work somewhat here in the studio so you don't hear all those annoying
sounds that you used to hear.
Uh-huh.
Well, keep up the great work.
Okay.
Thanks for the info.
Bye now.
That was pretty quick getting an answer there.
But that's shocking.
Only through hotels.
Well, you just now to get one, you just have to put a camera around your neck and like
walk into the hotel.
Sure.
I mean, that's easy.
I'd like $34 metro cards, please.
Well, the thing is, well, they become good the second you use them.
So you can actually have a bunch of them.
Just keep them around.
As soon as you start using them, 24 hours later, they stop working.
That's how it works.
So, yeah, you can get one and use it a year.
Yeah.
Good evening.
You're on Off The Hook.
Hey, Emanuel.
How are you doing?
Oh, pretty good.
Where are you calling from?
This is Tommy from New York.
I emailed you several times and I messaged you on IRC trying to plan a party for a benefit
for Kevin Mitnick.
Okay.
Tell us your plan.
Okay.
So we're going to have a party.
We're going to have a party.
We're all getting involved.
What we'll do is half the money will go to Kevin Mitnick and the other half will just go to the club for paying for the space.
That sounds like a great idea.
If we haven't responded to you, it's because we've been overwhelmed with all kinds of email and things like that.
Yeah, I can imagine that.
Send mail tonight.
I'll make sure to look for it.
You want me to send it to OTH?
Yeah, send it to OTH and we'll pursue this.
Hopefully post it on the page there for the New York City people.
Right.
Other people in other cities might want to get involved in this.
Maybe you could give us some sense.
I hope so.
Then we'll pass out flyers for the picketing of the Kevin Mitnick film.
You think you might be able to get MTV to take an interest in this?
Yeah, possibly.
Let me talk to a couple of the producers there.
Maybe we'll film a show protesting the movie or something like that.
Skeet's actually been at our studio before, too.
Has he?
Oh, great.
In the wintertime, they were up there for the promo for Scream, too.
You've met Skeet?
Yeah, I've bumped into him.
That's pretty cool.
Hopefully we can sway him, too.
Absolutely.
Talking to him, maybe manipulating the script to the truth instead.
Because the truth is just about as interesting.
Absolutely.
It's more interesting, I think.
We'll get you some free Kevin stickers, too.
Maybe you can put them in subtle places on set.
Yeah.
Come to the meeting on Friday.
We have a 26-hour meeting at CityCorp from 5 to 8.
Yeah, I'll go to the CityCorp building.
Okay, so we can talk then.
Yeah, we'll definitely do that.
You'll see me wearing a cool shirt.
Today I'm wearing my new shirt that says War Games on it for that game that's coming out.
It's cool because it's got a picture of the TRS-80 on it, the trash 80.
And in the front of it says,
In 1983, David Lightman nearly destroyed the world with a TRS-80.
Imagine what you could do today.
Oh, my gosh.
Best thing in the world.
Oh, boy.
Hey, you guys, cheers to both of you, or whoever's in the studio tonight.
And while we get those plants moving, I'll go ahead and e-mail everybody at OTH,
and then we'll see what we can do.
Okay, great.
I'll be at the meeting this weekend.
Thanks for the support.
Okay.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
That's great.
That's great.
We might actually get some attention through that.
And if MTV covers it, it'll be fashionable to Free Kevin, too.
That's right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Where have you seen Free Kevin stickers this week?
Oh, I've seen Free Kevin stickers all over the place.
On the website, www.kevinmitnick.com, if you go to the Free Kevin sticker section,
or all different places all over the site, we have links to a photo archive of Free Kevin stickers.
And there's been stickers on back of cars, skateboards, police cars.
That was interesting.
Well, the police actually wanted to put it on their car.
I'm sure they did.
That was up in Boston.
We went to the MIT Flea last week, and these cops stopped it.
We were in the 2600 van.
They saw the signs that said, Free Kevin.
And they're like, hey, do you have any more of those signs?
And I'm like, no, because my buddy here is named Kevin.
It's like, yeah, okay, great, whatever.
So I gave them some stickers.
They don't know what they mean, but at least they're sticking them someplace.
Which studio is making the movie?
Well, it's Miramax, Dimension, Millennium.
They're all involved in some degree.
It's a Dimension film, though, and they make horror films.
One of the things I did, besides joining the Skate Old Rich Fan Club,
was go to Miramax.com, and I joined the Miramax Cafe.
So I get the latest news on what Miramax is doing.
And they haven't mentioned anything about the film as of yet,
but the second they do, I'll be in the Miramax Cafe hanging out.
Well, that sounds really neat.
Yeah.
What else have you been doing?
Any other links on the web page you want to talk about?
Well, you know, everybody always asks what they can do,
and www.kevinmitnick.com certainly has a lot of things.
Last week we read the script on the show here,
and if you want to see your review, Manuel Goldstein's review.
Oh, the thing I posted on the Mitnick List.
Yeah.
People can read that there.
I thought it was a very good review.
It wasn't really a review.
It was just kind of, at 4 in the morning, how I felt about it,
reading the script without stopping.
Yeah.
It certainly has a lot of funny quotes from the script.
Yeah.
Yeah, I can't take credit for that.
I don't really want to.
And, of course, you know, just the site itself.
You know, when you go to the site,
there's a counter that says how long he's been there.
And, you know, according to my clock, my Kevin Mitnick clock,
he's been 3 years, 4 months, 15 days, 20 hours, 46 minutes,
and, you know, whatever seconds it is, without a trial.
Without any visitors, not being outside a single time.
No.
And there's also, I believe there's a link to get the Free Kevin thing on your monitor, right?
That's right.
For the folks who like to see Free Kevin all day long on their screen,
they could click a link on the main page,
and it's a static link that just says Free Kevin.
And a lot of people, you know, go to the mall
and change, like, the Errol's booth to say Free Kevin.
That's the home page, or they'll go to their local school.
Well, I mean, I don't see anything really wrong with that.
You're not causing any damage.
Yeah, it's better than a Netscape home page.
But depending on the person there, that might not be too cool with them.
So you've just got to judge things like that.
But, you know, when I go to computer shows,
I make it a habit to test out web browsers,
and I always go to certain pages that I like to go to,
and that would certainly be on the list.
And if you want to change...
You know, when I was in Amsterdam, actually,
at the Access for All 5th Anniversary party,
I wasn't only changing the home pages.
I wasn't only going to the pages.
I was changing the wallpaper on the machine
so that no matter what they ran, it would say Free Kevin.
I was using just bumper stickers, though,
so there were a million Free Kevins on the screen.
And that was kind of cool.
I've seen a CompUSA where someone went in
and changed all the screensavers and changed the password, too,
and these 3D Windows 95 Free Kevins were rolling around.
It's not nice to confuse people at CompUSA.
It's not nice at all.
It's too easy, for one thing.
It's just so sad.
Hey, is that a computer?
Now, I have a thing about that because I've waited in line.
When you go into CompUSA, right,
you see the line of people that are returning things,
and it's always, like, 3 times as long as the people who are buying.
That's got to tell you something right there, you know?
And they're always very angry.
It's like being in some Eastern European marketplace, you know?
Everyone just has an attitude of some sort,
and they all don't want to be there,
and there's people behind the desk, you know?
Everyone's surly towards each other.
They all don't like each other.
They don't like the place.
So, you know, boy, I don't know why people go to places like that.
I really don't.
Speaking of customer satisfaction or lack thereof,
I broke my phone yet again today.
Why?
I had an unsatisfactory phone call,
and I just didn't throw it that hard.
Does Sprint cover that, unsatisfactory phone calls and content,
or is it just the actual phone?
The thing is, you know, you do need a way
to vent your frustration on a phone call that you don't like
with a cellular phone.
So as soon as I hurled it, of course, it broke.
Well, it didn't break physically, but the screen, the LCD, was all messed up.
So I just brought it down to RadioShack again
because I have the three-year thing.
I just got another one.
I was in and out of the store within, like, four minutes.
They know me by now, you know?
I don't have to say anything.
I just hold my phone, and they give me another one.
They should give you one coded with Nerf next time, perhaps.
Something like that, something that bounces, perhaps,
like a Super Bowl type of a phone.
But the thing that was amazing this time
when I activated the phone,
usually what I had to do was give them the serial number
and give them all these different punch-in things on the phone.
This time, all I had to do was tell them my phone number and wait,
and they activated it over the air.
And it was activated within three minutes.
That's pretty speedy.
Yeah.
Next time I break the phone,
I'm going to shoot for five minutes for the whole transaction,
including activating and getting the phone.
So stay tuned.
Does that involve the actual going to RadioShack, or do you start
as you walk in the door of RadioShack?
It starts once I walk in the door of RadioShack,
because I could break it in the desert or something like that,
and it wouldn't be fair to count that time.
That's true, that's true.
Okay, let's take another phone call.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Speak up, please.
Okay, well, you've got to speak up.
That's part of the deal there.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Hey, this is Kairos out of Pennsylvania.
How are you doing?
Not too bad.
You know what?
It seems a little odd with how things have been going
in the past couple weeks here,
especially with what you were saying about the movie with Free Kevin.
You sound a lot like Bernie S.
No, I'm not.
You're from Pennsylvania, and you sound a lot like Bernie S.
No, I'm not in Philly.
I'm in Harrisburg.
That's interesting, though.
I wonder if that's a Pennsylvania accent we're hearing.
It probably is, a little bit of Pennsylvania Dutch anyway.
No, but I was wondering, you know,
with what the government is trying to do here,
trying to take away the ability of people to just talk, basically,
you know, with all the micro-broadcasters going out of business and everything,
I'm wondering how much stock the government actually has in, like, Miramax now,
and, you know, maybe it's already government-owned.
You know, it's kind of a paranoid theory, but it might make sense.
Well, I don't know.
You know, it's one thing to silence people with differing opinions,
but to say that everything bad is because of them, because of the government,
I don't know.
You know, I don't think they really, I'm sure they're not displeased with it,
but I think it's just, it's a symptom of the way things are in today's society,
that a film like this is actually taken seriously and can be made.
Oh, absolutely.
I don't think it's something that they outright, you know.
Right.
The real story is stifled and prevented from getting out there.
I think that's definitely where, you know, the way things are set up right now,
it reinforces that kind of a thing.
You know, really, all the technology and everything that we have nowadays,
it's really just an extension of, you know, our regular senses.
It'd be like, you know, it's basically the thing, you know, when you were a kid,
you're, he's looking at me, you know, he can't look at me.
And, you know, it's the same kind of thing going on with computers, you know.
Right.
Oh, he was in my files.
Well, you know, protect your files.
I don't know.
It just doesn't make a lot of sense.
No, you're right about that because what people seem to fail to realize
is that we're talking about computers here.
We're talking about ASCII text.
And when you try to bring real-world solutions to virtual problems.
Oh, well, a computer, you know, that's not a real thing.
That's like out of this world.
I'm saying that there's ways of dealing with it, you know,
providing justice in a net type of a fashion.
You deal with it on those terms.
You know, if somebody copies a file, it's not the same thing as robbing a bank,
although there are certain people who want to make it that way
because they attach a certain value to their file,
and if they think if somebody copies it, they've stolen it.
Even though they didn't actually lose anything.
And then somebody who has no conception whatsoever of computers,
to them it makes sense.
And that's why people get sent to jail for these things.
Yeah, but with the whole Kevin thing, you know, really,
a lot of people out there still don't know about it,
still don't know who Kevin is, still don't know what's going on.
You really need to pound the media.
Start with the local companies, start with the local news, things like that.
The big guys aren't going to listen to you if you just pound on their doors,
but once the small people start putting little stories out and stuff,
it'll get out there.
I hope that every week we can say this is what's happened since last week.
This week we had the ZDTV story and a couple other things,
fairly minor things, but we're finding out more information.
I'm hoping every week there'll be a story someplace
and more people will find out.
While we can say a lot of people don't know who Kevin is,
do more people know than you last week?
Yeah, and that's really what we need to strive to do.
There's no reason why we can't do another Bernie S. thing here.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I'll let you go.
Thanks for calling.
You're running out of time.
Take care.
He really did sound like Bernie S.
Pennsylvania accent.
I didn't know that was a Pennsylvania.
I thought that was just a Bernie S. accent.
We're not aware of our New York accents.
Yeah.
Actually, I thought that was a Nebraska accent that Bernie S. had
because he's from Nebraska originally.
Really?
I don't know.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hi, Emanuel.
Let me just turn down the car radio.
Whoops.
Sorry about that.
I'm calling from your car.
Your bumper sticker should say Free Kevin Mitnick
because I think a lot of people...
Okay, here's the thing.
First of all, if they said Free Kevin Mitnick,
they'd have to be smaller,
which means not that many people would be able to read them.
The Free Kevin is big.
It stands out.
You'll see it.
Plus, they're identical to the ones that are on the net.
They look exactly the same.
Same colors, same text, everything.
So when you see enough Free Kevin stickers in real life
and then you see it on the net,
you're going to click on it.
You're going to click on it to find out who Kevin is
or you're going to ask people who Kevin is
and people will tell you who Kevin is.
That's true.
And it starts conversation.
If people just say Free Kevin Mitnick,
it's like, oh, okay, whatever, you know,
and it stops right there.
This way, at least we poke at curiosity
and we get people to discuss it a little bit.
I see.
Does that answer your question?
Yes, it answers my question.
Good.
Let's move on to the next phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hey.
How are you doing?
Pretty good.
I was wondering if you had heard about
the World Intellectual Property Organization Treaty.
Well, you know, I've heard so many things about that
in the last couple of days.
The reason I haven't mentioned it on the show tonight
is because I'm not sure where it stands.
I've been contacting all different websites to find out.
Can you help us on this?
Well, all I've heard is that it would make
divulging security flaws illegal
unless you have the manufacturer's permission.
That's pretty much all I've heard about it.
Basically, what I'm hearing from the people
who are shouting the loudest
is that it makes reverse engineering of any sort illegal.
You can't, you know, dissect the program
and figure out how it works.
Really?
And, you know, when I see something like that,
my reaction is just, yeah, whatever.
Make these stupid laws.
They're totally unenforceable.
They're totally ridiculous.
And the more crazy laws you make like this,
the less respect people are going to have
for laws in the first place.
Society is just going to break down into anarchy anyway.
Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.
And then maybe we can make some laws that actually work
because this is just getting stupid.
You know, they've already made it illegal
to listen to certain frequencies.
They've made it illegal to type certain things
on your keyboards.
You know, now it's illegal to think in a certain way.
Right.
Where is it going to go?
Who knows?
But, yeah, I'd like to know more about it
to see if it's actually going to become law,
something that they actually try to enforce.
All right.
Well, thanks.
Okay.
Thank you.
Isaac, you have something?
As far as I know, it did pass the Senate.
It's Senate Resolution 1121.
If anyone's actually interested...
But do you think the Senate had any idea
what it was they were passing?
Basically, it's just, you know, is crime bad?
You know, yes, okay, crime's bad, so we'll pass this law.
Well, they get reelected that way.
I mean, there are stories of the House passing
a drunk...
What was it?
The drunken Internet driving...
Drunken Internet driving?
What in the world does that mean?
It's very strange.
I'll give you some more information later, but, I mean...
Drunken Internet driving?
It's strange.
At any rate...
That's the kind of thing I'd like to know more about.
If you are interested in the WIPO resolutions,
you can go to thomas.loc, L-O-C dot gov.
They maintain indexes for House of Representatives
and Senate resolutions.
The Senate resolution you're looking for is 1121.
The House is 2281.
Thomas Locke is quite a guy, huh?
Yeah, great fellow.
Yeah.
I believe that it is...
The reason that it's coming back to service
is that it's going to be passed in the House.
It has already passed the Senate.
It's basically doing a little editing to USC Title 17.
But that guy with the white hair still has to sign it, right?
That's true.
I have a feeling that he will,
because he just kind of does whatever he's told.
Let's get him to sign a waiver for Kevin Mitnick.
That would be a nice thing for him to do.
That would be nice.
He could slip it in.
I want people in high positions of power
to be aware of this situation.
I want to get the word out to them.
I want them to know who Kevin Mitnick is
and what he's been through and what we're facing here.
But we're out of time,
so we're going to have to stop at this point.
But I'm sure next week we'll have more news on this front
and on whatever other fronts happen between now and then.
So I want to thank everybody for coming in.
Mojo, Phil, Isaac, and all the callers, of course,
for being part of this.
Again, if you want to visit the Mitnick website,
you can get there through www.2600.com.
You can go there directly, www.kevinmitnick.com.
And you can also contact us, oth at 2600.com,
or write to us at 2600-PO-BOX-752,
Middle Island, New York, 11953.
Until next week, this is Emanuel Goldstein for Off The Hook.
Have yourselves a good night.
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Strange lights in the sky
visitors from other worlds
dream time vision
psychic phenomena
UFOs, the Internet, and more.
UFOdesk, a feature of Sidney Smith's CarrierWave.
Alternate Monday mornings between 1 and 2 a.m.
UFOdesk over WBAI, New York.
Produced by Paul Williams.