Off The Hook - 1998-07-07

[00:04.870 --> 00:15.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was a lot of time, but I can't do it, but I didn't get to see what they do, and now we're wrestling with the forces of...
[00:16.970 --> 00:24.270]  [SPEAKER_17]: 1998 is the 100th year of American intervention in Puerto Rico.
[00:24.450 --> 00:26.510]  [SPEAKER_17]: 100 years under U.S.
[00:26.870 --> 00:26.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: sovereignty.
[00:27.070 --> 00:31.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: 100 years of military presence that is now on the 25th of July.
[00:31.350 --> 00:40.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: A date that 100 years ago brought in the Stars and Stripes in Puerto Rico with an accompanying promise of democracy and equal rights for our people.
[00:41.010 --> 00:53.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: When 100 years have passed by and the United States faces the fact that it is the last colonial power in the world, certain people in the United States start asking themselves questions about what should happen regarding Puerto Rico.
[00:53.990 --> 00:57.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: July 25th marks the 100th anniversary of the U.S.
[00:57.330 --> 00:58.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: invasion of Puerto Rico.
[00:59.270 --> 01:04.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: WBAI will commemorate this historic event with special programming beginning at 10.30 a.m.
[01:04.450 --> 01:05.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: on Saturday, July 25th.
[01:06.330 --> 01:13.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: Tune in for a whole series of specials, including the documentary Puerto Rico, Reflections on the Oldest Colony, plus live coverage of the U.N.
[01:13.710 --> 01:14.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: rally against U.S.
[01:15.090 --> 01:16.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: colonialism in Puerto Rico.
[01:16.550 --> 01:19.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: So tune in all day July 25th beginning at 10.30 a.m.
[01:19.910 --> 01:23.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: only on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[01:29.430 --> 01:33.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: And this is radio station WBAI in New York, as you just heard.
[01:33.410 --> 01:39.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: The time is just about eight o'clock on a Tuesday night, which means once again, yes, it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:45.850 --> 01:50.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it up the wall.
[01:51.290 --> 01:55.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: I cut myself off shaving, now I can't make a card.
[02:01.430 --> 02:04.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm really bound for the best to spend the worst.
[02:04.650 --> 02:07.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hope that's understood, but then you know!
[02:07.650 --> 02:08.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: I
[03:17.550 --> 03:21.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: said, don't you know you'll never win?
[03:21.430 --> 03:27.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: You got your family running around, trying to stop you from going down.
[03:27.450 --> 03:31.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's you that I'm talking to.
[03:32.890 --> 03:37.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's you that I'm talking to.
[03:50.230 --> 03:55.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's you that I'm talking to.
[03:57.170 --> 04:01.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's you... it's you... that I'm talking to.
[04:04.070 --> 04:07.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now your cues have been a good man.
[04:07.630 --> 04:09.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take your punishment, it's the law of the land.
[04:10.670 --> 04:13.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now let this be a lesson to you.
[04:14.010 --> 04:16.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Broody, I'm talking to you.
[04:16.390 --> 04:19.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's you... that I'm talking to.
[04:22.050 --> 04:26.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's you... that I'm talking to.
[04:58.470 --> 05:03.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, it's you... that I'm talking to.
[05:05.990 --> 05:09.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's you... that I'm talking to.
[05:10.250 --> 05:11.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pick it up, pick it up.
[05:11.750 --> 05:14.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: You've thrown around cause it is third and sixth.
[05:15.050 --> 05:17.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now did you know you could never win?
[05:17.530 --> 05:18.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Your mother cried.
[05:18.310 --> 05:20.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: You had your family, they were running around.
[05:20.910 --> 05:23.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Trying to stop you from going down.
[05:23.770 --> 05:27.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's you... that I'm talking to.
[05:30.410 --> 05:33.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's you... that I'm talking to.
[05:34.950 --> 05:39.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, it's you... you... you... that I'm talking to.
[05:41.870 --> 05:45.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's you... that I'm talking to.
[05:47.190 --> 05:51.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, it's you... you... you... that I'm talking to.
[06:05.550 --> 06:06.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: And a good evening to everybody.
[06:07.210 --> 06:08.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: The program is Off The Hook.
[06:08.630 --> 06:11.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm Emmanuel Goldstein with you for the next hour.
[06:12.150 --> 06:14.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: Updating you on all the things that happened this past week.
[06:15.110 --> 06:20.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: And we'll have news on Takedown, on the Kevin Mitnick story, on the whole movement that's building up.
[06:20.610 --> 06:21.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: But first, some fun.
[06:22.310 --> 06:26.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, Friday night was the opening of the new MetroCard system.
[06:26.530 --> 06:29.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: The brand new, unlimited MetroCard system.
[06:30.050 --> 06:32.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, a bunch of us decided to have some fun.
[06:35.490 --> 06:40.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: We went down to the Astor Place subway station, right here in Manhattan.
[06:40.830 --> 06:50.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: And we figured what we'd do is, at the stroke of midnight, we would buy the first ever, weekly, monthly, what have you, unlimited use MetroCards.
[06:50.650 --> 06:55.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: And run some tests, run some experiments on them, because that's just the kind of thing we do.
[06:55.810 --> 07:04.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: And from reading the literature, we figured that every 18 minutes, the cards would be able to be used a second time.
[07:04.310 --> 07:10.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: So what would happen, say, if four or five of us got together and bought a card every five minutes?
[07:13.230 --> 07:20.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Reason would dictate that after 18 minutes passed, we would be able to let somebody else in for free every five minutes.
[07:21.290 --> 07:23.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: And that's exactly what we did.
[07:23.130 --> 07:28.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, we spent a couple of hours in the subway station letting people in for free, saying, hey, we're just nice, friendly people.
[07:29.270 --> 07:39.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: And encouraging other people to do the same thing, because with these unlimited use MetroCards, what you can do is swipe on the way in and swipe on the way out.
[07:39.370 --> 07:40.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's right.
[07:40.490 --> 07:41.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: I did today on the way down here.
[07:42.050 --> 07:50.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: When you leave the subway system, you simply swipe it, and the thing says go, and whoever is standing there can go, while you go back to the street.
[07:51.310 --> 07:52.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's how it works.
[07:52.270 --> 07:53.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's how the new unlimited system works.
[07:53.690 --> 07:58.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: Of course, the system kind of sucks because, well, the cards wear out in your pocket.
[07:58.370 --> 08:05.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if they wear out by rubbing against other credit cards, you're kind of out of luck because they don't refund the money, at least not easily.
[08:06.090 --> 08:08.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's not like something with a cash value on it.
[08:08.150 --> 08:12.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's unlimited, and it's something where the clock is constantly ticking.
[08:13.030 --> 08:18.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: So I'd like to hear any other stories people have had with this new system, which just debuted on Friday.
[08:18.590 --> 08:20.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: We had quite a lot of fun letting people in.
[08:21.250 --> 08:28.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: I remember this one guy was all decked out in a punk outfit, Sex Pistols, Ramones, whatever.
[08:28.270 --> 08:31.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: He was just walking around the street and came into the subway.
[08:31.170 --> 08:32.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: We let him into the subway for free.
[08:32.670 --> 08:33.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: A couple of minutes later, he left.
[08:33.930 --> 08:36.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: He just walks right out and says, I wanted a downtown train.
[08:37.030 --> 08:41.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: What a waste, you know, because then we had to wait another 18 minutes to let somebody else in for free.
[08:41.610 --> 08:45.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: And you know, you might say these people are doing illegal things.
[08:45.430 --> 08:46.770]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, there's nothing illegal about it.
[08:46.770 --> 08:51.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's nothing illegal about letting people into the subway for free as long as you do not solicit funds.
[08:51.390 --> 08:53.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: As long as they don't pay you back in any way.
[08:53.250 --> 08:56.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the only payback we got was a nice thank you from the people that we let in.
[08:57.150 --> 09:02.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: I like to think that hackers got together on Friday night and helped out the people of New York City.
[09:03.530 --> 09:07.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the only thing we ask in return is that you help somebody else.
[09:12.510 --> 09:13.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's fair, isn't it?
[11:27.700 --> 11:33.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: If I say two hours at home, I'm not sure how to do it for two hours in the afternoon.
[11:33.640 --> 11:34.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: White zombie.
[11:35.200 --> 11:36.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: And keep the sun still there.
[11:38.020 --> 11:41.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a little bit, there's a little bit...
[12:07.320 --> 12:08.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, it's pretty good.
[12:09.040 --> 12:09.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, whatever.
[12:10.160 --> 12:10.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[12:11.380 --> 12:15.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: Mark my words, that will be the big hit music of the next century.
[12:16.400 --> 12:18.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: I guess, well, Happy Polka, or something like that.
[12:19.740 --> 12:23.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it's the happening sound here on Off the Hook.
[12:23.360 --> 12:33.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, some listener mail concerning the Takedown script and the Kevin Mitnick situation, which we'll be updating people on in just a couple of moments.
[12:34.660 --> 12:44.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: This person actually had the problem that was highlighted in the script in one of the many technical foul-ups that you find when reading through this thing.
[12:45.000 --> 12:52.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: This person actually says, For some unknown reason, my modem sound has come back on, even though I have the slide bar turned all the way down.
[12:52.840 --> 12:56.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: Don't get me wrong, the connection noise is very melodic with a nice beat, but I can do without it.
[12:57.120 --> 12:58.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: What has gone wrong, and what can I do?
[13:00.040 --> 13:05.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, hackers have the sounds of screeching modems all the time.
[13:05.720 --> 13:07.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Actually, that person wasn't writing to us.
[13:07.200 --> 13:12.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: That person was posting to comp.dcom.modems, and someone else forwarded it to us.
[13:12.820 --> 13:13.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, yeah, it does happen.
[13:14.220 --> 13:17.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: Sometimes we have the sound of screeching modems in the background, and we can't stop it.
[13:17.780 --> 13:20.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: But usually, we have a frustrated look on our faces when that happens.
[13:20.580 --> 13:22.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's not the normal course of events.
[13:23.960 --> 13:28.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, for Off the Hook, I recently heard the show where you guys received a copy of the script for Takedown.
[13:28.560 --> 13:35.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: I found it to be really amusing how the script writers can take the truth and not twist it or fabricate it, but just plain lie about what happened.
[13:35.900 --> 13:41.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: I have read The Fugitive Game, which, from everything I've heard, is the closest to the truth that is available.
[13:41.880 --> 13:45.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: I have not read Takedown, so I went out the other day and got a copy of it.
[13:45.500 --> 13:49.560]  [SPEAKER_21]: Just from reading the book, it sounded like self-promotion for Shimomura.
[13:49.820 --> 13:55.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: I read the first chapter, The Break-In, and it mentioned nothing of a break-in, but it did mention how Shimomura went to meet his girl.
[13:57.280 --> 14:00.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I live in Ventura, California, 70 miles north of Los Angeles.
[14:01.100 --> 14:03.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's a large number of Mitnick supporters here.
[14:03.860 --> 14:06.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: A few friends and I are planning a demonstration against this movie.
[14:07.080 --> 14:09.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: I can get at least 30 people to join in on it.
[14:09.200 --> 14:14.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: We can hand out literature with info on books, websites people can visit with info on what really happened, and it's still happening.
[14:15.520 --> 14:19.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: If we can get people from the press to see what is happening, get it known to people, maybe things will change.
[14:25.560 --> 14:28.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: The public to take notice as to what's going on out there.
[14:28.740 --> 14:31.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's when you'll see things start to make a difference.
[14:31.960 --> 14:32.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's how it works.
[14:33.480 --> 14:39.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: And we're glad to hear people out there are planning some sort of action against Miramax to protest this film.
[14:40.080 --> 14:41.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're doing exactly the same thing here in New York.
[14:42.720 --> 14:50.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: We have addresses, phone numbers, and the first of our coordinating meetings that we'll be having later this week to plan out just what it is we're going to do.
[14:50.940 --> 14:54.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: We'll be announcing all that in just a couple of minutes, so stay tuned.
[14:56.220 --> 14:56.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're off the hook.
[14:56.980 --> 14:58.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've been following Mitnick's case for a while.
[14:58.720 --> 15:04.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've tried to do my part to spread the word at school, on my web page, on the various chat programs I hang out on.
[15:04.560 --> 15:10.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: I went to www.kevinmitnick.com and sent the following email to Senators Kerry and Kennedy.
[15:11.060 --> 15:12.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Snail mail will probably get a better response.
[15:12.900 --> 15:15.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm going to look into getting a letter-writing campaign going.
[15:16.300 --> 15:19.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: Senator Kerry, first, I'd like to thank you for your time and wish you a good day.
[15:19.340 --> 15:22.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'd also like to say I enjoyed your talk at UMass Dartmouth a few years ago.
[15:22.840 --> 15:25.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: I am writing as an outraged citizen of these United States.
[15:25.460 --> 15:30.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm a veteran, spent most of 1997 in Bosnia as part of a force to bring freedom to Bosnia.
[15:30.780 --> 15:32.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: I am writing on behalf of Kevin Mitnick.
[15:32.780 --> 15:38.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: He has been in prison in California for over three years, four months without trial, and has been denied a bail hearing.
[15:38.900 --> 15:43.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: Mr. Mitnick has never committed a violent crime, nor has he profited from the crimes he is accused of.
[15:43.680 --> 15:46.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: His constitutional rights have been violated on several occasions.
[15:46.960 --> 15:49.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: There are people who have made a great deal of money at Mr. Mitnick's expense.
[15:49.860 --> 15:53.560]  [SPEAKER_21]: John Markoff is a reporter for the New York Times, who helped the feds catch Mr. Mitnick.
[15:54.020 --> 15:56.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: Markoff has written a book called Takedown, which is loosely based on the facts.
[15:57.480 --> 16:01.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Markoff has also written a screenplay for Takedown, set to be made by Miramax Films.
[16:01.240 --> 16:02.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: Actually, that's not correct.
[16:02.040 --> 16:07.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: The screenplay was written by Howard Rodman, adapted from the book Takedown.
[16:07.260 --> 16:11.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: A copy of this script has been made available to those aware of the facts in the case, and they were appalled.
[16:12.380 --> 16:18.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: In the film, Mr. Mitnick is shown as a foul-mouthed, violent, and racist person whose motivations are self-gain and destruction.
[16:19.180 --> 16:20.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: The script is a work of fiction.
[16:20.860 --> 16:23.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: The only thing not in question in it are the names of the players.
[16:24.420 --> 16:30.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: Because of the use of real names in this movie, Mr. Mitnick's case could be severely hurt by the fictionalizing of his story.
[16:32.340 --> 16:36.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: I have kept up with this case over the last two years, and I am ashamed that my country would treat a citizen this way.
[16:36.960 --> 16:39.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: Please, if there is anything you can do, I ask for your help.
[16:41.440 --> 16:44.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: This was a very good move to make, to actually write to people.
[16:44.960 --> 16:46.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: Write your own personal letter.
[16:46.620 --> 16:47.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: That does get attention.
[16:47.800 --> 16:49.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: It gets a lot more attention than the form letters.
[16:49.420 --> 16:57.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, if you get bombarded with a thousand pieces of mail that say the exact same thing, you're not going to take it as seriously as something that looks sincere that it was actually written by a real person.
[16:57.180 --> 17:00.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: Of course, the odds would actually get it to the person you want to send it to.
[17:00.500 --> 17:01.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's kind of iffy right there.
[17:01.720 --> 17:08.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, it'll get to somebody, and maybe they'll say, hey, this is something that this person that they're sending it to should see.
[17:08.640 --> 17:11.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, if enough people do that, eventually they're going to hear about it.
[17:11.680 --> 17:13.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: And certainly the press will hear about it.
[17:13.760 --> 17:16.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: And that's because of the tension we really want to get.
[17:16.440 --> 17:20.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: We want to reach the American public and let them know about this whole case.
[17:20.200 --> 17:24.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if you don't know about this case at all, stay tuned because we'll update everybody on just what exactly it's all about.
[17:27.750 --> 17:34.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Dear Off The Hook, people are mystified by hackers as evidenced by the glut of press, good and bad, that they have gotten in the past year or so.
[17:35.150 --> 17:41.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: When hackers speak, people like to listen due to the fact that they think that they are doing something that falls into the gray area of the established laws.
[17:41.630 --> 17:52.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: In other words, what I'm trying to say is maybe there could be a project within the community and with help from outside sources to raise money and create an ad campaign in newspapers, magazines, radio, and even TV.
[17:52.750 --> 17:56.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: Telling people about the mistreatment of Kevin Mitnick at the hands of our benevolent government.
[17:56.730 --> 18:00.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: And what they can do to help stop the violation of a fellow human's civil rights.
[18:01.450 --> 18:05.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: The ad campaign might also lead towards change in the production of the movie Takedown.
[18:06.790 --> 18:19.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: I also think that if we as a group cannot affect changes in the way the events and characters in the story are going to be portrayed, we can be there at every theater that we can possibly get to distributing information about the real story.
[18:20.310 --> 18:27.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've noticed that in talking about this with other hackers and freakers, that there is a general apathy towards situations that don't directly involve them.
[18:27.730 --> 18:35.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: This is sad and can hurt the cause because if there is not a united front, there will be holes that the public can push through and still not be made aware of the truth.
[18:35.470 --> 18:41.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: The whole Kevin Mitnick tragedy is only going to happen to more people who cross the wrong people if we don't do something about it now.
[18:42.370 --> 18:47.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think that Kevin should be freed, but not made an example of what can happen to hackers if they get caught.
[18:47.450 --> 18:50.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Which is what he's been for the last three and a half, almost years.
[18:52.090 --> 18:54.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: Sorry to be so long, but I had to get it off my chest.
[18:54.350 --> 18:55.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Please, if you have the time, of course, respond.
[18:56.010 --> 19:01.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Tell me how I can get involved in a manner more than just putting stickers everywhere that many people have no clue about and joining mailing lists.
[19:01.110 --> 19:07.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, a lot of what you say is very true, and we do have to think of ways of being more productive.
[19:07.950 --> 19:10.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's no way, though, we're going to reach everybody.
[19:10.070 --> 19:12.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're going to get everybody to agree with us.
[19:12.150 --> 19:20.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's no way the entire hacking community is going to speak in one voice, nor should it, because the whole nature of the hacking community is that we're a bunch of individuals, each with our own opinion on various things.
[19:20.570 --> 19:22.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: So not everybody is going to agree in the first place.
[19:22.370 --> 19:42.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: The point is, for those of us who do agree to be unified and to speak in a fairly strong voice, strong enough so people can hear us, not strong enough so that people think we're being shrill and paranoid and annoying, I think while you say that people have no clue when you throw the stickers up in various places,
[19:42.510 --> 19:44.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: true, they have no clue at first.
[19:44.230 --> 19:52.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: But when they see two free Kevin stickers, when they see 10, 20, 100, they're going to say, who the hell is Kevin?
[19:52.650 --> 19:54.770]  [SPEAKER_21]: And they're going to keep saying it until somebody answers them.
[19:55.710 --> 19:59.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if enough of us are out there, somebody is going to answer them properly.
[19:59.510 --> 20:05.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if they're on the web and they see a free Kevin sticker on the web, they're going to click on it and find out all about this.
[20:05.750 --> 20:11.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right now we're on a 50,000 watt radio station in the middle of New York City, being broadcast all over the internet throughout the world.
[20:11.250 --> 20:14.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: So we're getting the word out in various ways.
[20:14.430 --> 20:18.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: We have magazines, newspapers that are printing stories about this.
[20:19.590 --> 20:20.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Word is getting out.
[20:20.790 --> 20:21.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Word will continue to get out.
[20:22.090 --> 20:25.190]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the voices will get ever louder until something is done.
[20:27.110 --> 20:29.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, one more piece of mail that's really not related.
[20:29.590 --> 20:30.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's just kind of a suggestion.
[20:31.610 --> 20:33.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's kind of a funny suggestion, I guess.
[20:33.970 --> 20:42.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: When you have lists of off-the-hook episodes, why don't you put in the times through each episode that certain things happen, like 032, Emmanuel discusses hacking issues.
[20:43.150 --> 20:45.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: 121, Emmanuel talks to the Free Kevin campaign.
[20:45.510 --> 20:47.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: Then people can just go to the parts they want.
[20:47.650 --> 20:49.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think it would increase the usage of the off-the-hook page.
[20:50.190 --> 20:54.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, some people out there seem to think we have nothing but time on our hands to do all these things.
[20:55.090 --> 21:02.770]  [SPEAKER_21]: People want us to translate it into Braille, to have it read onto cassettes, and to index it, and do all kinds of things.
[21:02.810 --> 21:04.770]  [SPEAKER_21]: But you know, we just don't have the time.
[21:04.770 --> 21:11.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Sometimes someone wants us to type out everything we say, so that what I'm saying right now, I'd have to type out at some point and provide that.
[21:11.770 --> 21:12.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, it's great.
[21:12.610 --> 21:13.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's a great idea.
[21:13.210 --> 21:14.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you want to do it, go for it.
[21:14.310 --> 21:16.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: But we just don't have the time, you know?
[21:16.270 --> 21:20.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're kind of caught up in a campaign here, among other things, among a million other things.
[21:22.690 --> 21:23.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[21:24.950 --> 21:28.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: The Free Kevin campaign is progressing rather nicely.
[21:29.450 --> 21:31.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: This past weekend, we did quite a bit of work.
[21:31.950 --> 21:34.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: In fact, I decided to embark on a little project.
[21:34.730 --> 21:44.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: I went out throughout the neighborhood, throughout downtown, doing some research on the whole Kevin Mitnick Shimomura chain of events.
[21:45.670 --> 21:47.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: And what I found was interesting.
[21:47.450 --> 21:49.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: They were very helpful in all the bookstores I went to.
[21:49.550 --> 21:54.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: They told me of a book called Takedown, which, of course, we've been talking about quite a bit.
[21:54.410 --> 21:55.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: Everyone knows about this book.
[21:55.370 --> 21:56.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: Everybody has this book.
[21:56.510 --> 21:57.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's everywhere.
[21:57.170 --> 21:58.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: Every bookstore you go to, you can find it.
[21:58.630 --> 22:03.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: But I found out through the nice person at one of the bookstores that there was another book.
[22:04.430 --> 22:04.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's right.
[22:04.950 --> 22:10.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: There was another book called The Fugitive Game, which we've talked about quite a bit on this show.
[22:10.470 --> 22:12.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: In fact, we've interviewed the author of that book, John Lippman.
[22:13.310 --> 22:15.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: But you know, it's very hard to find that book.
[22:15.810 --> 22:17.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: I had to go all over the place.
[22:17.630 --> 22:28.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: I wore out a pair of shoes, walking around the neighborhood, trying to find a copy of this book, and finally, finally, after stopping in I don't know how many bookstores, I found a copy of The Fugitive Game.
[22:29.030 --> 22:30.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, you might ask, why am I buying it?
[22:30.870 --> 22:31.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: Because I already have the book.
[22:31.890 --> 22:33.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: I have it in hardcover and softcover.
[22:33.590 --> 22:36.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: I wanted to buy this for our good friend, Skeet Ulrich.
[22:37.290 --> 22:40.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, Skeet Ulrich lives somewhere in Manhattan.
[22:40.330 --> 22:41.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: We don't know exactly where.
[22:41.670 --> 22:43.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: We know he's around here someplace.
[22:44.050 --> 22:49.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: We figure what we do is buy a copy of the book and deliver it to him.
[22:49.430 --> 22:54.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: And just hand it to him, or leave it with his doorman, or whatever, and say, Skeet, read this book.
[22:54.390 --> 22:58.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Read this book and learn about the person that you're going to be portraying in this film.
[22:59.030 --> 23:02.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're playing Kevin Mitnick in the film version of Takedown.
[23:02.490 --> 23:04.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: You should know something about who he really is.
[23:05.010 --> 23:18.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's unlikely that you'll be able to talk to him, since he's not allowed to have any visitors, since it's unlikely you'll see him, since he's not allowed any bail, and it's unlikely you'll really get a true sense of the story, since he won't have a trial before this film is made.
[23:19.430 --> 23:26.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: This is the best shot you have of finding out what really happened, or at least another side of the story.
[23:27.170 --> 23:28.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's what we wanted to do.
[23:28.270 --> 23:29.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: We wanted to hand the book to him.
[23:29.850 --> 23:37.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, as you can see, or hear, I still have the book, so that means I didn't give it to him, because he wasn't at the apartment building he was supposed to be living in.
[23:38.150 --> 23:39.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, apparently he moved or something.
[23:40.250 --> 23:44.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: So we went searching for him, and we're quite unsuccessful in our travels.
[23:45.010 --> 23:51.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: We searched through an entire list of everybody in the building that we thought he was in, and either he's in a fake name, or he's somewhere else.
[23:51.870 --> 24:01.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: So if anybody knows the whereabouts of Skeet Ulrich, please contact us here at Off The Hook, or you can mail us at OTH at 2600.com, and we'll get this book to him.
[24:01.650 --> 24:04.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's important, because filming starts in less than three weeks.
[24:04.330 --> 24:05.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: We've got to do something.
[24:05.510 --> 24:11.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: We've got to get to these people to make sure this story is not portrayed the way they have it written.
[24:12.410 --> 24:13.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's shocking.
[24:13.330 --> 24:19.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: I wish I could show everybody the script, but I'd probably get in a lot of trouble if I did that, because it is copywritten material, and I'm not even supposed to have it.
[24:20.110 --> 24:28.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: But let's suffice to say that they portray Kevin Mitnick as a violent criminal, a racist, somebody who constantly cheats and steals.
[24:29.490 --> 24:38.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: And when you consider the poor guy is sitting in prison, has been in there for three and a half years without a trial, without the chance to talk to people, he's not able to defend himself against this kind of thing.
[24:38.890 --> 24:50.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if you do some research, you'll find that he never caused damage to a computer system, he never stole anything, he lived two years on the run in utter misery, and was finally caught and put in even more misery.
[24:51.550 --> 24:54.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think we're talking about victimization here.
[24:54.610 --> 25:00.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: A lot of people have made a lot of money off of this story, and Kevin has yet to see a penny, and I don't think he ever will.
[25:01.670 --> 25:03.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: We have some updated information.
[25:03.610 --> 25:07.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: We have some contact numbers, names, things like that.
[25:08.490 --> 25:17.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: And we have word of the first meeting, as we plan a demonstration next week here in New York City at the Miramax headquarters.
[25:18.750 --> 25:23.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're hoping to have also demonstrations at the Los Angeles headquarters of Miramax.
[25:23.390 --> 25:32.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: For that, you need to contact us via email, lth at 2600.com, as we don't have the information yet as to how that's going to be happening.
[25:33.250 --> 25:43.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: Here, however, if you're interested in participating in a demonstration, we're having a meeting this Friday at the Citicorp Center, same place that we have meetings for 2600 once a month.
[25:43.350 --> 25:45.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: This meeting will take place at 6 p.m.
[25:45.710 --> 26:01.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: at the Citicorp Center this Friday, and same place in the lobby, and we'll discuss just what it is we want to do, and when we want to do it, and next week, next week at this time on this radio show, we'll announce what we decided, and what will actually be happening.
[26:02.030 --> 26:03.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: It will happen next week sometime.
[26:03.510 --> 26:04.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: That much is guaranteed.
[26:04.610 --> 26:08.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Probably won't be Monday or Tuesday, since there's no way we could announce that since we're on Tuesday nights.
[26:09.150 --> 26:12.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: So it'll be Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday, or maybe all three.
[26:12.130 --> 26:12.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: Who knows?
[26:12.890 --> 26:13.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: We'll see about that.
[26:13.810 --> 26:25.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you're interested in writing to them, their address is Miramax Films, 7966 Beverly Boulevard, Los Angeles, California, 90048.
[26:25.790 --> 26:27.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: As you point out, that's a new address.
[26:27.410 --> 26:31.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's another address that's floating around that's incorrect and not at that address anymore.
[26:31.770 --> 26:35.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: They're at 7966 Beverly Boulevard, Los Angeles, California, 90048.
[26:36.210 --> 26:41.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: Their telephone number out there is Erika, 213-951-4200.
[26:41.850 --> 26:45.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: And their fax number, 213-951-4315.
[26:46.350 --> 26:53.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now Miramax also has an office here in New York City, and that's located at 375 Greenwich Street on the third floor.
[26:54.330 --> 26:59.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you want to write to them, it's 375 Greenwich Street, third floor, New York, New York, 10013.
[26:59.490 --> 27:04.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: Their phone number is 212-941-3800.
[27:04.450 --> 27:06.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-941-3800.
[27:07.050 --> 27:12.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: And their fax number is 212-941-3949.
[27:12.990 --> 27:18.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if you want publicity for Miramax, they can be reached at 212-625-2222.
[27:19.350 --> 27:23.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-625-2222 is publicity for Miramax.
[27:23.490 --> 27:34.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: Remember, when you talk with these people, it's very important to make your points, to be polite, to not be annoying, but to be strong in your resolve.
[27:34.590 --> 27:42.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if you get somebody that's simply taking a message, make sure they get the message, because that's the only way it's going to get out there.
[27:42.570 --> 27:44.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: People like you.
[27:44.630 --> 27:46.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: People listening to this show right now.
[27:48.730 --> 27:55.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: As far as updated information, the word about the film is spreading.
[27:55.430 --> 27:56.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: More articles showing up on the net.
[27:57.110 --> 28:00.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: Nothing really in major newspapers as of yet.
[28:00.630 --> 28:02.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're hoping to get the word out.
[28:02.930 --> 28:06.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: There is something that is making the rounds now on the net.
[28:06.790 --> 28:11.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: The Free Kevin Mitnick Action Alert, number one, was released on July 5th, 1998.
[28:11.430 --> 28:13.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's really, really a good job.
[28:13.310 --> 28:20.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's a document that describes the entire chain of events and what is happening right now.
[28:20.630 --> 28:22.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: Basically, I'll read you the way it starts.
[28:22.810 --> 28:25.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: Did you have an enjoyable 4th of July weekend?
[28:25.390 --> 28:29.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Did you hang out by the barbecue, beer in hand, and eat too many burgers and or tofu dogs?
[28:30.430 --> 28:33.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, whatever you did, it was probably more enjoyable than Kevin Mitnick's 4th of July.
[28:33.870 --> 28:39.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: Kevin spent his in the same place that he had the last few, the Metropolitan Detention Center in Los Angeles.
[28:40.190 --> 28:52.770]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it's a full documentation of all the things that happened as well as places that you can connect to to find out more information and to pursue the facts on your own.
[28:53.610 --> 28:54.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: Here's an interesting section.
[28:54.810 --> 28:59.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of the most disturbing aspects of Kevin Mitnick's case is the lack of support for his plight from net activists.
[29:00.250 --> 29:09.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: The same people who could probably quote moving passages from their dog-eared copies of the hacker crackdown seem to become very quiet when it comes to Kevin's case.
[29:10.670 --> 29:17.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: Not only have groups like EFF not lent direct support to Kevin, but they have done little else to show any support for him.
[29:18.470 --> 29:20.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's time for internet activists to take a stand.
[29:20.630 --> 29:28.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's time for people to realize that for phrases like cyber rights now to have any meaning, they must apply to Kevin Mitnick as well as every other netizen.
[29:29.090 --> 29:37.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: Even if we assume that the worst accusations about Kevin's hacking are true, it still becomes quickly clear that his case has been blown way out of proportion.
[29:38.490 --> 29:44.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: Kevin is the victim of a campaign to hype his story, a campaign which has made millions of dollars for those responsible.
[29:45.470 --> 29:49.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: Obviously, net activist organizations have a limited amount of time and must focus their resources.
[29:49.690 --> 29:54.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: They cannot respond to every potential crisis, and no reasonable person would expect them to.
[29:54.130 --> 29:59.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: They have other, more practical concerns as well, like the possibility of alienating potential donors and sponsors.
[30:00.130 --> 30:00.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's reality.
[30:01.410 --> 30:11.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: What's also reality is that Kevin's case is sure to be a landmark in the field of computer crime, and that activists should be getting involved to make sure that bad precedents aren't set, which could impact us all.
[30:12.330 --> 30:21.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: Kevin is obviously being singled out to act as an example for other hackers, and the message is pretty clear so far, that the government can do as it pleases when it comes to hackers, civil rights be damned.
[30:21.410 --> 30:24.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: If that's the case, then how safe is anyone?
[30:27.030 --> 30:36.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: And again, this document is being posted to news groups, mailing lists all over the internet, and if you'd like to help us spread it around, please contact us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[30:36.730 --> 30:43.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you're interested in joining the mailing list yourself, simply send the email to majordomo at 2600.com.
[30:43.650 --> 30:47.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's spelled M-A-J-O-R-D-O-M-O at 2600.com.
[30:47.650 --> 31:04.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: And in the body of your message, simply write, subscribe, Mitnick, M-I-T-N-I-C-K, and you'll be subscribed to the mailing list where we're discussing just what it is we're going to be doing and what kind of response we'll be having to this film and to the various other events that are taking place.
[31:04.510 --> 31:07.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's going to be a very interesting summer as we follow these people around the country.
[31:08.070 --> 31:12.190]  [SPEAKER_21]: They start filming in North Carolina about three weeks from now, maybe even a little less.
[31:13.150 --> 31:18.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: And we're going to be there every step of the way, following this, reporting back to people and updating everybody.
[31:18.630 --> 31:20.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's just what it is that's going on.
[31:21.010 --> 31:21.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[31:21.270 --> 31:24.770]  [SPEAKER_21]: Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[31:25.930 --> 31:36.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: People want to call in and ask us some questions and maybe share some information as to things we might not have heard about regarding this case, regarding other things.
[31:36.610 --> 31:42.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're going in the hacking world in general, new technology, the MetroCard, and all that other fun stuff out there.
[31:43.150 --> 31:44.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let's take phone calls.
[31:44.330 --> 31:44.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[31:44.750 --> 31:45.190]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on the air.
[31:45.490 --> 31:46.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[31:46.530 --> 31:47.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: Who is this?
[31:47.210 --> 31:48.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't recognize this voice.
[31:48.450 --> 31:49.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, it's me.
[31:49.350 --> 31:50.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know what I think we should do?
[31:50.910 --> 31:52.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've never heard this voice before.
[31:52.610 --> 31:52.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh.
[31:53.070 --> 31:53.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm living in a fantasy world.
[31:53.910 --> 31:54.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's a new caller.
[31:55.830 --> 31:59.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm just trying to make a world for myself where I could be happy, but I guess it's not going to work.
[32:00.110 --> 32:01.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just want to make one thing.
[32:01.230 --> 32:01.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[32:01.370 --> 32:04.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe we should have a protest at the jail in Los Angeles about Kevin Mitnick.
[32:05.590 --> 32:06.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'll meet you there.
[32:07.050 --> 32:11.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: But anyway, I was in Michigan and I, you know, I was trying to find the 2600 meeting in Ohio.
[32:12.490 --> 32:14.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: You were in Michigan and you were trying to find the meeting in Ohio?
[32:15.130 --> 32:15.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, no, no.
[32:15.550 --> 32:16.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: I went to Ohio.
[32:16.330 --> 32:17.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was on my way to Michigan.
[32:17.490 --> 32:28.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: I went to the 2600, I tried to get to the 2600 meeting in Cincinnati, no, Cleveland, Ohio, but it says it's at the Cafe Arabica, but in Cincinnati there's like three locations.
[32:28.550 --> 32:30.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't think there is a Cincinnati meeting anymore.
[32:30.530 --> 32:33.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: What you might want to do is check the web page, but I know at least...
[32:33.690 --> 32:33.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I did.
[32:33.950 --> 32:34.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: I did.
[32:34.390 --> 32:36.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: It said Cleveland, Ohio, the cafe...
[32:36.510 --> 32:36.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, Cleveland.
[32:36.850 --> 32:39.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, there was a meeting in Cleveland, but I think Cincinnati got bumped.
[32:40.310 --> 32:42.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but it doesn't say an address.
[32:42.410 --> 32:48.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: And then when I went to Ann Arbor, Michigan, it's at Michigan State University, but nobody can find this Galleria thing.
[32:48.530 --> 32:49.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: I was there.
[32:49.270 --> 32:49.770]  [SPEAKER_21]: I found it.
[32:49.850 --> 32:52.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: I found it in Ann Arbor, so it is definitely there.
[32:52.670 --> 32:53.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, but nobody could find things.
[32:54.010 --> 32:59.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: They should specify, like, addresses and, you know, you know, like they do here, like it's in New York City.
[32:59.350 --> 33:01.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, but, I mean, that was very easy to find.
[33:01.790 --> 33:03.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's right there near the university.
[33:04.030 --> 33:05.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's very easy to find.
[33:05.430 --> 33:08.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: But the one in Ohio, I couldn't find either.
[33:08.690 --> 33:10.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, that I can't... I don't know.
[33:10.230 --> 33:11.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've never been there.
[33:11.330 --> 33:19.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, what about the thing, when I was in the hotel, in the motel, in any Motel 6, you can make free phone calls by dialing, having the operator dial the number for you.
[33:19.290 --> 33:21.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, that's been a problem with Motel 6 now for ages.
[33:21.470 --> 33:22.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: They don't seem to get it.
[33:23.110 --> 33:26.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've even told them, I've said, look, it's very easy to make phone calls.
[33:26.170 --> 33:26.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: You should fix it.
[33:26.990 --> 33:27.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: And they're like, oh, yeah, whatever.
[33:27.930 --> 33:28.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: Pay your bill.
[33:28.390 --> 33:29.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, and then, okay.
[33:29.690 --> 33:31.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but no, in most of the things, they don't pay.
[33:31.490 --> 33:32.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: You don't pay.
[33:32.190 --> 33:34.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's like you can only call collect and all that.
[33:34.450 --> 33:35.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: You can only call collect?
[33:35.970 --> 33:36.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, a third number.
[33:36.930 --> 33:39.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: Like, in other words, you could only make those type of phone calls.
[33:39.250 --> 33:41.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, so you can't make phone calls directly from them, then, you're saying.
[33:42.410 --> 33:43.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: Maybe they did fix it.
[33:43.370 --> 33:46.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right, in other words, you can just make phone calls if it's collect, calling card, or third number.
[33:46.470 --> 33:48.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can't dial nine and then one in area code number.
[33:48.610 --> 33:49.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: You have to dial zero.
[33:49.730 --> 33:51.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: So you have to have a billing number.
[33:51.470 --> 33:52.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: What's the big deal?
[33:52.430 --> 33:52.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, no, no.
[33:52.990 --> 33:56.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: But the thing is, is that you could say to the operator, to build it to the phone I'm calling from.
[33:57.290 --> 33:57.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, I see.
[33:58.110 --> 33:58.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[33:59.450 --> 34:02.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: So you can make phone calls pretty much directly from there.
[34:02.730 --> 34:06.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right, but not by not paying for it is what I'm trying to get at.
[34:06.450 --> 34:09.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, that's yeah, that's definitely a unique concept for you to be getting at.
[34:09.730 --> 34:13.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: But thanks so much for calling for the updates and your quest for the ultimate free phone call.
[34:15.030 --> 34:16.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-279.
[34:16.250 --> 34:16.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, no, no, no.
[34:17.170 --> 34:18.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-209-2900.
[34:19.910 --> 34:20.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[34:20.670 --> 34:21.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: I wonder who got our old phone number.
[34:22.010 --> 34:22.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[34:22.570 --> 34:23.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on off the hook.
[34:23.230 --> 34:24.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, hello.
[34:24.290 --> 34:25.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's like a reunion.
[34:25.470 --> 34:26.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: First rebel, then me.
[34:26.750 --> 34:28.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: This is a voice I haven't heard in a long time.
[34:28.370 --> 34:31.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, it's not like a reunion because rebels here every damn week.
[34:31.570 --> 34:32.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, I don't know what.
[34:32.590 --> 34:33.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: I just sort of lost track.
[34:33.970 --> 34:36.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: I got into calling up C-SPAN there.
[34:36.470 --> 34:39.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've sort of hacked their system in the last two months.
[34:39.730 --> 34:41.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: I must have been on like a dozen times.
[34:41.750 --> 34:42.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, yeah.
[34:42.890 --> 34:44.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: You abandoned us for C-SPAN.
[34:44.430 --> 34:45.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: You abandoned us for a national network.
[34:45.990 --> 34:49.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was on with good old Amy Goodman this morning from WBAI.
[34:49.750 --> 34:50.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: Really?
[34:50.430 --> 34:50.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[34:50.830 --> 34:52.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: She was like being interviewed and stuff.
[34:52.410 --> 34:55.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know if she recognized my voice, but anyway.
[34:56.130 --> 34:56.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: So what's on your mind?
[34:57.210 --> 34:57.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[34:57.690 --> 34:58.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let me, let me just focus.
[34:59.110 --> 35:00.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have a dry, dry mouth.
[35:01.950 --> 35:07.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: It seems like I've been, you know, listening to the show on and off for, I don't know, it seems like over a decade.
[35:07.690 --> 35:11.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: And this, there seems to be this theme running through it.
[35:11.470 --> 35:16.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's like every year it's like, let's get our friend A, B, or C out of jail.
[35:16.210 --> 35:20.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, you know, first it was fiber, then Bernie, now Kevin Mitnick.
[35:20.750 --> 35:35.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, is there a sort of, I may be naive, but I mean, is there some sort of aspect or component about the hacker community that sort of, you know, lends itself to people sort of screwing up and getting in trouble?
[35:35.270 --> 35:52.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's just some sort of psychological characteristic, sort of a death wish almost, of people in the community who are bright, neurotic, Jewish or Asian, and sort of want to sabotage their lives under a guise of, of, of exploration.
[35:52.730 --> 36:05.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I think there's also a tendency in any government to first lock up the smartest people, the people who are about to discover interesting things, the people who explore and don't really respect authority all that much.
[36:05.450 --> 36:06.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think that's what we're seeing as well.
[36:07.170 --> 36:17.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: I also think we're seeing a government that's very afraid because they don't have a handle on the technology that these kids have, that hackers in general have.
[36:17.150 --> 36:19.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: And that's why you're seeing an overreaction like this.
[36:19.510 --> 36:22.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: They don't really know what it is that we're capable of.
[36:22.570 --> 36:23.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: They're, they're panicking.
[36:23.850 --> 36:26.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: And when you panic, you strike out in various ways.
[36:26.230 --> 36:29.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: You guys don't know yourselves, I mean, you know, or...
[36:29.330 --> 36:30.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, nobody knows everything.
[36:30.850 --> 36:32.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's, you know, a very important thing.
[36:32.790 --> 36:40.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm just curious, you know, you guys are all old school and like you see, like now and then you interview these teenagers who are getting in trouble.
[36:40.870 --> 36:44.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do you sort of feel threatened or do you say to yourself, I must be getting older?
[36:44.430 --> 36:48.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Look at these kids who are doing stuff that I couldn't imagine when I was their age.
[36:48.490 --> 36:53.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, is there like a generation gap or a jealousy among generations with hackers?
[36:54.010 --> 36:57.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: There is a generation gap among people who don't listen to each other.
[36:57.250 --> 37:08.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the thing in the hacker community is that you still have people that don't listen to each other, but you also have sort of a bond that is blind to things like age, sex, whatever.
[37:09.590 --> 37:12.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: And things have not changed very much over the years.
[37:13.070 --> 37:15.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: People are playing with different kinds of computers now.
[37:15.390 --> 37:16.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: They're playing with different kinds of technology.
[37:16.870 --> 37:20.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: But basically, the hacking mentality has not changed.
[37:20.490 --> 37:28.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's a lot more people now that claim to be hackers, that want to be hackers because they see the films, they read the books, and they get drawn into it in that way.
[37:28.630 --> 37:39.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, you know, the percentage of people who really are, the percentage of people who don't want the answers given to them but want to learn how to get the answers, it's still about the same, I think.
[37:39.470 --> 37:39.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[37:39.770 --> 37:47.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: The last question, sort of to play devil's advocate, and I really haven't thought about this whole issue with Miramax and the films.
[37:48.010 --> 37:50.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: I haven't arrived at some conclusion.
[37:50.710 --> 37:58.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: But how would you respond to the whole argument of, you know, of their artistic First Amendment freedom of expression?
[37:58.470 --> 38:06.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, you say Kevin Mitnick's constitutional rights have been violated, but there's sort of violating an artistic, creative...
[38:06.870 --> 38:19.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: How would you feel if you woke up and you saw a film being made that used your real name and your real-life situation and made you do all these horrible things that you never, ever would have done?
[38:19.170 --> 38:20.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: But isn't he a public figure?
[38:20.650 --> 38:21.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, you know, that's the interesting thing.
[38:22.030 --> 38:24.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, he's a public figure, but, you know, why he's a public figure?
[38:24.610 --> 38:27.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: Because the people that are making the film wrote a book about him.
[38:27.650 --> 38:29.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: So what would you like to achieve?
[38:29.270 --> 38:32.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do you want to totally prevent them from doing it?
[38:32.830 --> 38:37.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Ideally, I guess you want them to change the film to be more sympathetic towards Kevin.
[38:37.490 --> 38:41.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: But let's say they don't because of the bottom line or whatever.
[38:41.650 --> 38:44.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Would you like... would you try and sabotage it or prevent them?
[38:44.270 --> 38:45.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, there's two things.
[38:45.690 --> 38:49.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: First of all, what we want, we want them to get the story right.
[38:49.250 --> 38:54.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: We want them not to be able to say things, you know, like Kevin Mitnick bashed you more on the head with a garbage can lid.
[38:54.470 --> 39:00.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: We don't want that kind of image being portrayed, which is just an absolute fabrication and a bunch of lies and everybody knows it.
[39:00.750 --> 39:06.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: What we do want is to show the consequences of what happened when Kevin Mitnick got captured.
[39:06.770 --> 39:13.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: The fact that he's been in jail now for over three years without a trial, without bail, without a single visitor, you know, that's part of the story.
[39:13.750 --> 39:15.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's a very important part of the story.
[39:15.150 --> 39:15.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: You can't ignore it.
[39:16.030 --> 39:19.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you're going to tell a true story about somebody, then tell the true story.
[39:19.450 --> 39:23.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: Don't just, you know, paint it so that somebody looks good and somebody looks bad.
[39:23.490 --> 39:25.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's not a good versus evil thing.
[39:25.390 --> 39:26.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's more complex than that.
[39:26.430 --> 39:36.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, if they don't listen, and I fully expect them not to, then we simply have to make sure that every bit of publicity that this film gets is used to get our message out as well.
[39:36.970 --> 39:46.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: For everybody that sees Takedown, we want them also to see the words, it's free Kevin, and to know the suffering that he's gone through in the years that he's been in prison.
[39:46.890 --> 39:52.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Emmanuel, how about if they just take a disclaimer on the beginning or end saying it's like a fictionalized version?
[39:53.070 --> 39:55.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: How many people stay for the credits of films?
[39:55.870 --> 39:56.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, movie books.
[39:56.870 --> 39:57.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, but, yeah, I know.
[39:57.750 --> 39:59.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: And they're the people that already know the truth anyway.
[39:59.910 --> 40:03.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: So that little disclaimer isn't going to do much, you know?
[40:03.250 --> 40:04.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: Not for me, anyway.
[40:04.430 --> 40:05.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: What is it that Shakespeare said?
[40:05.910 --> 40:11.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is it a sorry web we weave when we try to hack or something?
[40:11.930 --> 40:12.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know.
[40:12.610 --> 40:16.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, anyway, you guys take care.
[40:16.870 --> 40:17.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Where's Phiber tonight?
[40:18.350 --> 40:20.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: I do not know, but NetWeasel has something to say to you.
[40:20.930 --> 40:21.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Who?
[40:21.350 --> 40:21.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: NetWeasel is here.
[40:22.050 --> 40:23.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've got a little response.
[40:23.950 --> 40:24.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: NetWeasel?
[40:24.470 --> 40:25.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: NetWeasel, but he's on the wrong microphone.
[40:25.690 --> 40:25.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: Go ahead.
[40:26.150 --> 40:31.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've got a little response for your first part about hackers having a death wish.
[40:31.490 --> 40:32.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, it's just a supposition.
[40:32.490 --> 40:37.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: I understand, but, I mean, everyone, there's always bad consequences no matter what.
[40:37.750 --> 40:48.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, are you saying now that because high school jocks have a tendency to get drunk and, say, play mailbox baseball that, you know, that we should characterize everyone as them and them having a death wish?
[40:48.790 --> 40:53.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, you're characterized a whole by the minimum.
[40:53.430 --> 40:53.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not really.
[40:54.090 --> 40:57.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, that's a faulty rhetorical logic argument, but I'm just saying...
[40:57.290 --> 41:00.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, then you're talking about, let's say your other point about them being able to talk about Kevin.
[41:00.870 --> 41:04.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's say you're in a supermarket one day and you decide that you want a Tylenol.
[41:04.930 --> 41:06.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: So you open up the Tylenol thing.
[41:06.310 --> 41:11.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: You get arrested for, say, taking a Tylenol out of the package of Tylenol and taking it.
[41:11.890 --> 41:12.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're arrested for theft.
[41:12.790 --> 41:24.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, then some New York Times reporter comes out and says that you're, well, that you not only stole the Tylenol, but you held up the supermarket, shot the clerk, and laced the rest of the Tylenol with arsenic.
[41:24.210 --> 41:24.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, no.
[41:24.430 --> 41:25.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: First, they have to make you a public figure.
[41:25.870 --> 41:26.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that's what they're doing.
[41:26.710 --> 41:28.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: They have to write a book about you stealing Tylenol first.
[41:28.950 --> 41:30.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: Then you become a public figure.
[41:30.130 --> 41:31.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: Then they can do a lot of other stuff.
[41:31.110 --> 41:33.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: I call and go WBAI and stuff, but...
[41:33.010 --> 41:33.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh-huh.
[41:33.850 --> 41:34.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I would sue.
[41:34.990 --> 41:35.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, have...
[41:35.890 --> 41:39.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, yeah, but the thing is, when you're sitting in prison with no money, it's hard to sue people.
[41:40.290 --> 41:40.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's the problem.
[41:41.070 --> 41:41.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: I understand.
[41:41.810 --> 41:42.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, it's a shame.
[41:42.770 --> 41:43.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, what can I say?
[41:43.650 --> 41:44.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, that's a shame.
[41:44.890 --> 41:47.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have people starving in the streets of New York.
[41:47.490 --> 41:49.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: You feel like it can get really overwhelming, you know?
[41:50.030 --> 41:50.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: I know, absolutely.
[41:51.130 --> 41:51.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: But anyway, listen...
[41:51.750 --> 41:54.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: The thing is not to get overwhelmed, not to put too many burdens on your shoulders.
[41:54.490 --> 41:58.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sure, but I wish you well, and I liked your escapade with the MetroCard.
[41:58.690 --> 42:01.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Were there any cops in the station who were giving you the eye?
[42:02.050 --> 42:03.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: Didn't see a single cop.
[42:03.550 --> 42:06.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: The clerk seemed to, like, know what we were doing, but...
[42:07.410 --> 42:09.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think he knew it was legal, so there was no problem.
[42:09.070 --> 42:11.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can only use it every 18 minutes or every 5?
[42:11.430 --> 42:13.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: Every 18 minutes, you can use it again.
[42:13.970 --> 42:16.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: Before that happens, it says just used.
[42:16.890 --> 42:18.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: So you can't use it until 18 minutes go by.
[42:19.030 --> 42:20.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: It doesn't tell you how many minutes are left.
[42:20.490 --> 42:21.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: You have to time that yourself.
[42:21.510 --> 42:26.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you've yet to crack the main computer or discover, like, how it works and all that stuff?
[42:26.910 --> 42:28.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, there are people that have cloned cards.
[42:28.670 --> 42:29.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: We know that.
[42:29.370 --> 42:31.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: But as far as actually explaining the whole system...
[42:31.910 --> 42:32.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: They just cloned a cow, too.
[42:33.110 --> 42:33.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Did you see it in the Times?
[42:34.090 --> 42:34.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: They cloned a cow?
[42:35.170 --> 42:35.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: In Japan.
[42:35.850 --> 42:36.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was in today's Times.
[42:37.010 --> 42:37.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[42:37.050 --> 42:37.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's just wonderful.
[42:37.970 --> 42:38.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: Like the sheep, you know.
[42:38.950 --> 42:39.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: A lot better.
[42:39.490 --> 42:39.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[42:39.890 --> 42:41.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Anyway, listen, great talking to you guys.
[42:42.110 --> 42:47.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: I want to say hello to Bob Fass, who's listening, and my summer replacement therapist, Faye, who's listening.
[42:47.610 --> 42:47.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Take care.
[42:48.030 --> 42:48.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bye.
[42:48.190 --> 42:48.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[42:48.450 --> 42:48.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks.
[42:49.730 --> 42:56.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I'm sure that in the movie they're going to add a part where Kevin Mitnick hacks the MetroCard, and, you know, that's going to be the new addition to the film.
[42:56.130 --> 42:59.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, they'll add that, and maybe, you know, he's responsible for the space shuttle crashing.
[42:59.670 --> 43:01.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: Kevin's actually going to clone the cow.
[43:01.550 --> 43:02.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's going to happen.
[43:02.210 --> 43:04.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, they'll just take some dramatic license.
[43:04.590 --> 43:07.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't like when people hide behind things like that.
[43:07.130 --> 43:10.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: Like, oh, yeah, that's, you know, that's dramatic license to do this, to ruin somebody's life.
[43:10.990 --> 43:12.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: You can't get away with that.
[43:12.130 --> 43:15.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: Imagine someone brought this parallel up.
[43:15.890 --> 43:17.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Imagine if Bill Gates, for instance.
[43:18.210 --> 43:18.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: He's a public figure.
[43:19.310 --> 43:28.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: What if you made a film about Bill Gates, where you show him lying and conniving and stealing and hitting people and doing all kinds of horrible things in his rise to the top?
[43:28.890 --> 43:32.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do you think maybe if this became a film that people went out and saw...
[43:32.750 --> 43:33.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I know, people are nodding.
[43:33.590 --> 43:34.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: This is like the real story.
[43:34.290 --> 43:40.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, if you made it, and it was real, even if it was real, do you think that he wouldn't do something about it?
[43:41.050 --> 43:42.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: Of course, he'd be all over you.
[43:42.270 --> 43:44.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: You'd have all kinds of lawyers following around for the rest of your life.
[43:45.530 --> 43:47.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, people do take action against this kind of thing.
[43:47.830 --> 43:54.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: But when the person is a helpless victim who is in prison, it's very hard for them to do anything.
[43:54.730 --> 43:56.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's why we have to do something.
[43:56.870 --> 44:03.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Those of us who still have our freedom and are able to walk around the streets and make phone calls and things like that, we're the ones that have to do something.
[44:03.110 --> 44:05.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: So that's an explanation for that.
[44:05.630 --> 44:07.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-209-2900.
[44:07.650 --> 44:08.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[44:08.150 --> 44:08.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on the air.
[44:09.610 --> 44:09.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello?
[44:10.010 --> 44:10.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, go ahead.
[44:11.570 --> 44:12.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, am I on the air?
[44:12.330 --> 44:13.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on the air right now.
[44:13.310 --> 44:13.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[44:13.850 --> 44:14.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hey, Emmanuel, how's it going?
[44:14.950 --> 44:15.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, where are you calling from?
[44:15.930 --> 44:17.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm calling from Washington, D.C.
[44:17.690 --> 44:20.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, what's happening down there in the land of laws?
[44:20.250 --> 44:22.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: The land of laws that don't mean anything.
[44:23.450 --> 44:26.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, well, I have a couple questions for you.
[44:26.830 --> 44:27.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[44:27.290 --> 44:30.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: First of all, what's with the music?
[44:30.850 --> 44:31.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: What's with the music?
[44:31.730 --> 44:34.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: All the music you were playing at the beginning of the show.
[44:34.270 --> 44:37.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, that was music we imported from Holland, actually.
[44:38.630 --> 44:40.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sounded like German polka to us.
[44:40.730 --> 44:43.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, well, it was sort of like polka, but with a techno beat.
[44:43.710 --> 44:45.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I've always said the two can merge.
[44:45.630 --> 44:49.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I liked it pretty good, but I just was wondering, what was up with all that music?
[44:49.250 --> 44:52.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, well, you know, we live for music, and sometimes we die for music.
[44:53.850 --> 44:57.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, well, I listened for the content here.
[44:57.710 --> 44:58.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: The music was good.
[44:58.670 --> 44:59.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Keep it going.
[44:59.570 --> 45:01.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: As long as the music doesn't get in the way.
[45:01.930 --> 45:03.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, that's the important thing.
[45:03.410 --> 45:04.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, that's good.
[45:04.110 --> 45:04.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: We have to coexist.
[45:05.170 --> 45:05.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's good.
[45:06.650 --> 45:12.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: The second question here is, if we ever get Kevin out of this, are you going to give him a job at 2600?
[45:12.370 --> 45:14.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, gee, I mean, he could do just about anything, but...
[45:14.850 --> 45:17.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, with the situation, many people might not want him.
[45:17.810 --> 45:20.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think he probably wouldn't want anything to do with hackers for a while.
[45:21.210 --> 45:26.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, you know, if corporate America is smart, they would hire people like Kevin.
[45:26.090 --> 45:28.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: Look what happened to the Israeli hacker, you know, the analyzer guy.
[45:28.850 --> 45:31.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, he was accused of hacking all kinds of things in this country.
[45:31.610 --> 45:32.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: And what happens?
[45:32.190 --> 45:34.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: The Israelis give him a job immediately, you know?
[45:34.990 --> 45:37.770]  [SPEAKER_21]: And he's looked upon as almost a hero.
[45:38.150 --> 45:40.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: Netanyahu even said he was really good, you know?
[45:41.510 --> 45:44.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: In this country, he'd be put in prison for a long, long time.
[45:44.310 --> 45:45.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, that's very true.
[45:45.610 --> 45:47.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Exactly like what's happening with Kevin.
[45:48.710 --> 45:52.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's no information on a date for the North Carolina filming of Takedown?
[45:52.970 --> 45:54.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're trying to find out.
[45:54.270 --> 45:56.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you hear anything, please let us know.
[45:56.270 --> 46:01.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: But so far, we have been unsuccessful finding out the exact date that things start, or even where they're going to be filming.
[46:01.810 --> 46:06.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, I had always assumed that they would be filming at the apartment complex where he got captured.
[46:06.990 --> 46:11.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: But I talked to the people who own those buildings, and they say there's been no inquiry.
[46:11.150 --> 46:14.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if there was, they wouldn't give permission to film there.
[46:14.590 --> 46:15.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: So I don't know exactly.
[46:15.610 --> 46:18.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: I know North Carolina is sort of a mecca for filmmaking.
[46:19.130 --> 46:20.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's kind of like the Hollywood of the East.
[46:20.890 --> 46:22.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'll bet that's a surprise to a lot of people, but it's true.
[46:23.310 --> 46:25.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: So they might just be filming in North Carolina because it's cheap.
[46:25.990 --> 46:28.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: It might not have anything to do with the actual story taking place there.
[46:29.090 --> 46:29.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[46:29.410 --> 46:36.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I'm on the mailing list waiting for some info on that, because I'm planning on heading down there to tell them what's going on.
[46:36.630 --> 46:37.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: This isn't right.
[46:37.190 --> 46:39.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: We'll figure it'll be probably within three weeks.
[46:39.630 --> 46:39.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[46:40.010 --> 46:43.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: So we'll be posting information on that mailing list and announcing it here as we learn more.
[46:43.650 --> 46:45.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I will be waiting for that.
[46:45.590 --> 46:45.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[46:45.990 --> 46:46.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, thanks for calling.
[46:46.630 --> 46:49.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: And Wink says to say hi to an IRC.
[46:49.310 --> 46:49.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, great.
[46:50.050 --> 46:50.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: So hi, Wink.
[46:50.930 --> 46:51.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[46:51.490 --> 46:51.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[46:51.790 --> 46:52.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks a lot, Emmanuel.
[46:52.610 --> 46:52.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: Take care.
[46:52.930 --> 46:53.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Bye-bye.
[46:53.190 --> 46:53.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bye.
[46:54.950 --> 47:00.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-209-2900 as we broadcast throughout the Internet and on 99.5 FM in New York City.
[47:01.350 --> 47:01.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[47:02.090 --> 47:02.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on Off the Hook.
[47:05.330 --> 47:06.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-209-2900 as we broadcast throughout the Internet and on 99.5 FM in New York City.
[47:07.670 --> 47:08.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: Here's a solution.
[47:09.010 --> 47:09.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, here's a suggestion.
[47:10.070 --> 47:13.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you're going to speak on the radio, don't make noises like that, because they make me nervous.
[47:15.970 --> 47:17.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm sorry, because that might have been the guy's real voice.
[47:17.950 --> 47:18.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, I don't want to...
[47:18.430 --> 47:19.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you just picked up on me now.
[47:19.790 --> 47:20.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I picked up on you.
[47:20.750 --> 47:21.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, uh...
[47:21.710 --> 47:22.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is Tommy.
[47:22.810 --> 47:22.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on the air.
[47:22.970 --> 47:24.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, we talked about the benefit.
[47:24.430 --> 47:24.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes.
[47:24.810 --> 47:26.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, you didn't come to the meeting, did you?
[47:26.350 --> 47:28.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: I did come to the meeting, but I must have missed you.
[47:28.450 --> 47:32.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: I was outside smoking and stuff, you know, where all the kids were hanging out.
[47:32.630 --> 47:33.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, I missed that on meeting you.
[47:33.810 --> 47:37.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: You should come inside to the meeting next time, because that's where the meeting takes place.
[47:37.570 --> 47:39.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'll definitely be there Friday and we'll discuss it.
[47:39.610 --> 47:40.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, yeah.
[47:40.110 --> 47:44.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: On a side note, I did talk to one of the producers where I work.
[47:44.210 --> 47:46.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not going to mention where I work tonight, just so I don't ruin it.
[47:46.970 --> 47:47.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[47:47.390 --> 47:56.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: But one of the producers I discussed about having a roundtable show with some politicians and some of the people who are possibly making the movie, et cetera, et cetera.
[47:56.530 --> 47:56.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[48:02.050 --> 48:03.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: More than real criminals.
[48:03.930 --> 48:04.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Very good question.
[48:04.410 --> 48:12.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Because the subway cloners, you know, cloning the Metro cards, they get jail terms, but people jumping the turnstiles get $50 fines.
[48:12.770 --> 48:12.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right.
[48:13.330 --> 48:18.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, it's like me carrying a gun and having 15 bullets and being charged with 15 murders.
[48:19.150 --> 48:19.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good point.
[48:20.010 --> 48:20.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good point.
[48:20.430 --> 48:25.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, and those people that draw the house analogies, which I really hate because computer hacking is nothing like breaking into somebody's house.
[48:25.870 --> 48:30.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: But if you do break into somebody's house, you don't wind up in prison for years.
[48:30.110 --> 48:38.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: You wind up maybe in prison for a little while, if that much, you get a fine, but you certainly don't get anything like the penalty that you get for logging into a computer system.
[48:38.530 --> 48:38.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly.
[48:38.970 --> 48:40.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you get your trial right away.
[48:40.610 --> 48:46.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: And if you go to Rikers, you only get a short prison sentence because, you know, they're all packed.
[48:46.970 --> 48:55.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I said, why do people think of the computer world, a real world, or an extension of our real world, when people look at virtual reality as not part of our world?
[48:56.310 --> 48:59.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: I said, people should know the difference between computers and real life.
[48:59.970 --> 49:04.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think a lot of it has to do with just not understanding and being afraid of that which you don't understand.
[49:04.810 --> 49:05.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly.
[49:05.610 --> 49:09.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, you know, the producer looked at me going, wow, that is so interesting.
[49:10.030 --> 49:15.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: I really think this would be a good show, especially since other, you know, channels don't do a show like this.
[49:15.590 --> 49:18.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: But you do know producers tend to react that way to just about anything.
[49:18.510 --> 49:21.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: They have this, like, plastic look on their faces where they say, wow, it's a great idea.
[49:21.830 --> 49:22.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm going to take it off.
[49:22.450 --> 49:23.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: And of course, it doesn't even register sometimes.
[49:24.250 --> 49:25.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, no, I'm good friends with her.
[49:25.670 --> 49:30.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: So she said it was in her bag, but she was going to bring it to the other producers now.
[49:30.230 --> 49:30.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[49:30.650 --> 49:31.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I thought that was good.
[49:32.270 --> 49:36.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then we discussed some other things about other channels doing this.
[49:36.310 --> 49:38.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: And she goes, why don't they do it?
[49:38.190 --> 49:39.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: I said, you know why?
[49:39.110 --> 49:42.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: You got big shows like CNET and TV.com and all that.
[49:42.570 --> 49:44.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: They have such big sponsors.
[49:44.950 --> 49:45.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly.
[49:45.350 --> 49:46.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: I said, that's the problem.
[49:46.370 --> 49:48.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: They don't have major kids watching it.
[49:48.290 --> 49:50.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: They don't have politicians showing up normally.
[49:50.630 --> 49:54.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's the major sponsors like Microsoft, and they don't want to see a show about hacking.
[49:54.770 --> 49:57.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, look at the people that are getting the word out.
[49:57.650 --> 49:58.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: WBAI.
[49:58.210 --> 49:59.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: No commercials, no sponsors.
[49:59.850 --> 50:00.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: 2,600.
[50:00.730 --> 50:02.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: No advertisements, no sponsors.
[50:02.750 --> 50:07.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: Those are the only types of places where you can get something like this out to the people.
[50:07.310 --> 50:07.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly.
[50:07.990 --> 50:11.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: And since where I work, it's such a good demographic because it's younger.
[50:11.690 --> 50:16.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: And also, we have, you know, just not music, but movies and stuff like that.
[50:16.430 --> 50:19.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's going to be much more popular for our type of scene.
[50:19.470 --> 50:20.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I told her about it.
[50:20.370 --> 50:21.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: She's like, oh, that's great.
[50:21.630 --> 50:23.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, so hopefully we'll work on that.
[50:23.690 --> 50:28.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: What we'll do is we'll discuss the details.
[50:28.150 --> 50:31.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'll email you tonight right after we get off the phone here.
[50:31.350 --> 50:33.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then hopefully we can talk.
[50:33.270 --> 50:37.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: I did email you my phone number the other day, but you never got back to me.
[50:37.530 --> 50:37.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[50:38.130 --> 50:40.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: Things have been crazy, but we'll definitely talk on Friday.
[50:41.290 --> 50:42.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, we'll definitely do that.
[50:42.590 --> 50:44.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: We'll hook up and we'll discuss more of the details.
[50:44.770 --> 50:49.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to press her again about it and see who else we can go through for this type of publicity.
[50:50.990 --> 50:56.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: But definitely, we will go down there to Miramax, wherever they're filming the show.
[50:56.270 --> 50:58.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we'll definitely pick at it.
[50:59.170 --> 50:59.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[50:59.730 --> 51:02.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: We need to make people aware that we're out there and we're watching.
[51:03.010 --> 51:03.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[51:03.310 --> 51:03.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[51:03.610 --> 51:04.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'll talk to you soon, Emmanuel.
[51:04.870 --> 51:05.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thanks for calling.
[51:05.830 --> 51:08.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: And what you have to remember is that, you know, we are the audience.
[51:08.350 --> 51:13.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: We are the people that see these films that, you know, buy the newspapers, that watch television.
[51:14.210 --> 51:15.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: So listen to us.
[51:16.250 --> 51:17.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: Listen to our concerns.
[51:18.010 --> 51:19.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Try to get the facts right.
[51:19.350 --> 51:20.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's all we're trying to say here.
[51:21.570 --> 51:23.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-209-2900.
[51:23.910 --> 51:24.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[51:24.610 --> 51:25.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on off the air.
[51:26.470 --> 51:26.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[51:27.110 --> 51:31.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: The other thing I should point out is that if you hold the phone next to the radio, you'll get noises like that.
[51:31.830 --> 51:32.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: And that gets me nervous, too.
[51:33.430 --> 51:34.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: You don't want to get me nervous.
[51:34.550 --> 51:34.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[51:34.970 --> 51:35.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on the air.
[51:35.650 --> 51:35.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello.
[51:35.830 --> 51:36.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: How are you doing?
[51:37.050 --> 51:37.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good.
[51:37.350 --> 51:37.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: How are you?
[51:37.930 --> 51:38.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[51:38.370 --> 51:39.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: You want to turn down your radio?
[51:39.470 --> 51:39.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[51:39.770 --> 51:39.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[51:40.050 --> 51:40.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[51:40.810 --> 51:40.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: How are you doing?
[51:41.210 --> 51:41.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: How are you doing?
[51:41.910 --> 51:43.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm calling from New York.
[51:43.570 --> 51:43.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[51:44.550 --> 51:48.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: In New York, there's a brand new local phone company called Community Telephone.
[51:48.730 --> 51:49.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've heard of them.
[51:49.650 --> 51:50.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know anything about them.
[51:50.950 --> 51:52.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering if you have any comments about them.
[51:52.530 --> 51:54.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: I got a letter in the mail from them.
[51:54.530 --> 51:54.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[51:55.170 --> 51:58.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they're supposed to have much, like, 10% cheaper than NYNEX.
[51:58.590 --> 51:58.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[51:59.310 --> 52:00.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I was wondering if you have any comments about them.
[52:01.630 --> 52:06.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've heard of companies like this that offer the same exact service, except it's less.
[52:08.450 --> 52:09.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, the jury's still out on that.
[52:10.130 --> 52:11.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, somebody has to use them.
[52:12.370 --> 52:13.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: They basically advertise.
[52:13.750 --> 52:14.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: They say you can keep your number.
[52:15.050 --> 52:16.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: You don't have to change phone numbers.
[52:16.530 --> 52:19.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: And you can, you know, pay this amount less, get the same good service.
[52:19.530 --> 52:22.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I think that's a fatal flaw in their argument right there.
[52:22.530 --> 52:23.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: Get the same good service.
[52:23.790 --> 52:27.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, if you're getting good service, then why would you want to change in the first place?
[52:27.750 --> 52:29.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: So people are going to be a little wary about that.
[52:29.690 --> 52:31.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they're going to change because they're going to pay less money.
[52:31.710 --> 52:32.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Isn't that more people going to want to change?
[52:32.910 --> 52:33.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, that's true.
[52:34.070 --> 52:37.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: But they've already acknowledged that it's good service.
[52:37.390 --> 52:41.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: They can't really guarantee it's going to be as good, but they can guarantee it's going to be cheaper.
[52:41.550 --> 52:42.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: So people are going to be...
[52:42.530 --> 52:46.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: Usually when you want to get somebody to switch, you say the service sucks or it's terrible.
[52:46.510 --> 52:47.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's something that you want to switch from.
[52:47.810 --> 52:50.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: Not that, yeah, it's great service, but you'll get the same great service at least.
[52:50.830 --> 52:51.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, I don't know if that works.
[52:51.970 --> 52:54.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: But somebody's going to have to take the plunge and try this out.
[52:54.630 --> 52:58.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think they bundle a long-distance and local thing together.
[52:58.450 --> 53:01.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: They only give local... they give local and long-distance.
[53:01.990 --> 53:02.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: Really?
[53:02.430 --> 53:03.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, that I don't know about.
[53:03.470 --> 53:04.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: That could get kind of complicated.
[53:04.570 --> 53:07.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's about time there's competition in the local...
[53:07.530 --> 53:08.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, absolutely.
[53:08.370 --> 53:10.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: ...because in long-distance, there's like hundreds of companies.
[53:10.490 --> 53:12.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: In local, there's only one... there's only NYNEX.
[53:12.670 --> 53:12.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right.
[53:12.870 --> 53:14.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, about Atlantic now, ever since they emerged.
[53:14.950 --> 53:15.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right.
[53:15.230 --> 53:18.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's only one major one, one that all of us can get.
[53:18.470 --> 53:19.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: So that is starting to change.
[53:20.050 --> 53:22.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: It took long enough, but let's hope it gets somewhere.
[53:22.550 --> 53:22.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Great.
[53:23.250 --> 53:25.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's about time they start a competition.
[53:25.450 --> 53:25.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks a lot.
[53:26.010 --> 53:27.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you switch there, let us know what happens.
[53:27.550 --> 53:27.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Great.
[53:27.810 --> 53:28.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks a lot.
[53:28.210 --> 53:28.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Take care.
[53:28.610 --> 53:28.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bye-bye.
[53:29.470 --> 53:31.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: We have time for a couple more phone calls.
[53:31.510 --> 53:31.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's off the hook.
[53:32.250 --> 53:35.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: 212-209-2900.
[53:35.390 --> 53:35.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[53:35.790 --> 53:36.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on the air.
[53:36.930 --> 53:37.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello.
[53:37.390 --> 53:37.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: How are you doing?
[53:38.290 --> 53:38.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, hi.
[53:38.850 --> 53:42.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was wondering, why don't we just hold a protest in Washington, D.C.?
[53:42.810 --> 53:43.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: Where would you hold it?
[53:45.750 --> 53:48.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, like Farrakhan had a million-man march.
[53:48.490 --> 53:52.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: Why don't we do the same thing, except maybe we'll call it a million-hacker march?
[53:52.550 --> 54:03.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: I will protest not only the movie, but the whole Mitnick story and also various other topics that are sensitive in the technological aspect.
[54:03.350 --> 54:08.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: For example, the shutting down of free radio mutiny and free radio Berkeley.
[54:08.530 --> 54:10.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, that's something I really like to tie in.
[54:10.790 --> 54:12.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: There are a lot of issues.
[54:12.210 --> 54:15.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: There are a lot of issues that are interesting that we should get involved in.
[54:15.770 --> 54:17.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: I just don't know if we can get a million hackers together.
[54:17.990 --> 54:19.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: It would be great if we could.
[54:19.510 --> 54:24.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know what we'd do to the city that we went to, but boy, that would be something right there.
[54:24.830 --> 54:27.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right now, though, I think we should focus on the targets.
[54:27.970 --> 54:29.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the targets are not in D.C.
[54:29.230 --> 54:30.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: The targets are in New York and Los Angeles.
[54:30.910 --> 54:33.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: Those are the people making the film, and they will be in North Carolina.
[54:34.070 --> 54:35.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: Those are the people who need to hear the message.
[54:36.010 --> 54:38.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: And hopefully through that, more people will hear.
[54:38.390 --> 54:51.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I also think that also, instead of just posting up all the free Kevin stickers, people are giving out a paper that said all the facts about the Kevin Mitnick trial.
[54:51.310 --> 54:51.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[54:51.690 --> 55:02.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it'll be actually better and cheaper to post those papers everywhere instead of the free Kevin stickers, because otherwise you won't be just posting your message out.
[55:02.890 --> 55:04.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: You'll be posting the facts.
[55:04.370 --> 55:05.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[55:05.650 --> 55:06.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, you're talking about flyers.
[55:06.770 --> 55:11.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: In fact, somebody handed me a flyer at the 2600 meeting, and I don't know who gave it to me, but it's a great flyer, and we want to make more of them.
[55:12.630 --> 55:15.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: So hopefully that person will get in touch with us one way or another.
[55:15.590 --> 55:18.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, yeah, I mean, the stickers serve one purpose.
[55:18.590 --> 55:19.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: The stickers get your attention.
[55:19.970 --> 55:21.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: You can't stick a flyer in the back of a car.
[55:21.830 --> 55:27.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: You can't stick a flyer on a stop sign, although we're not saying people should put stickers on stop signs.
[55:27.430 --> 55:32.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, you know, I've seen it happen, and it's just, you know, if that happens, it's better to put a sticker there than a flyer.
[55:33.150 --> 55:34.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: The flyers are what you hand to people.
[55:34.930 --> 55:37.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, you're at a demonstration, you're on a street corner, you hand flyers.
[55:37.350 --> 55:41.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's what people are supposed to read, and that's more of a, you know, one-on-one contact situation.
[55:42.630 --> 55:43.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay.
[55:43.570 --> 55:43.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right?
[55:44.110 --> 55:44.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, bye.
[55:44.810 --> 55:45.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thanks for calling.
[55:45.990 --> 55:46.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good evening.
[55:46.650 --> 55:47.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on Off the Hook.
[55:48.090 --> 55:48.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello, Emmanuel.
[55:49.050 --> 55:49.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, how are you doing?
[55:49.750 --> 55:50.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Very good.
[55:50.210 --> 55:52.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is Bob calling out on Long Island.
[55:52.190 --> 55:52.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Bob.
[55:53.410 --> 55:55.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course, I always have to start off by saying Free Kevin.
[55:56.030 --> 55:56.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[55:56.930 --> 56:00.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've been trying to connect to the 2600 website.
[56:01.150 --> 56:02.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: You must be getting a lot of hits.
[56:02.150 --> 56:05.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: A lot of people must be listening all over the world because I can't get through.
[56:05.590 --> 56:06.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, but that's all right.
[56:06.770 --> 56:07.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm on the radio.
[56:09.030 --> 56:10.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: A couple of things.
[56:10.230 --> 56:15.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know what we can do about movies like this that are just complete falsehoods.
[56:15.110 --> 56:22.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I try to explain what I know about the Kevin Mitnick story, and people generally think I'm crazy, like he's guilty of something.
[56:22.490 --> 56:27.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: I guess that's the opinion that a lot of lay people might think.
[56:29.250 --> 56:45.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: One point I'd like to make is that using just computers and using the Internet, you know, everybody these days being sold computers, getting online, and I try to get my family involved, and, you know, just sending emails of photos, baby photos across the Internet,
[56:45.790 --> 56:47.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: you know, it's a great little thing to do.
[56:47.250 --> 56:56.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, ironically, say someone goes to the public library and gets out a book on pipe bombs, okay, and brings it to school, they get in trouble.
[56:57.130 --> 57:08.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: If they get it off the Internet and bring it to school, next thing you know they're part of a terrorist organization, and the FBI is swooping down and confiscating their equipment, and they're lucky if they don't land in jails as well as they have.
[57:08.070 --> 57:11.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, they don't know how to differentiate between curiosity and criminality.
[57:12.510 --> 57:26.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, it's an amazing phenomenon is if you use a computer and download something off the Internet, you may not even be committing any crime at all, but you get the stigma associated with it and the paranoia in the government seems to be tremendous.
[57:27.170 --> 57:30.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: I heard this firsthand story from my parents, who were well in their 70s.
[57:30.830 --> 57:36.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: They had another friend whose kid had just downloaded something just like that, just as a goof.
[57:36.310 --> 57:38.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, it's so easy to access anything you want.
[57:38.550 --> 57:38.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[57:40.290 --> 57:41.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they got investigated.
[57:41.990 --> 57:45.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: What people don't realize is that these are kids doing what kids have always done.
[57:45.570 --> 57:48.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's just the technology has changed a little bit.
[57:48.630 --> 57:49.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: The toys have changed.
[57:49.370 --> 57:50.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: Listen, sir, we're out of time.
[57:50.350 --> 57:52.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: But I want to thank you for calling and bringing up those points.
[57:52.290 --> 57:54.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, free Kevin, and I'll have to...
[57:54.790 --> 57:56.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: How do I get a free Kevin bumper sticker?
[57:57.390 --> 57:59.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, if you show up on Friday, we'll bring a whole bunch of them there.
[58:00.230 --> 58:00.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's one way.
[58:00.870 --> 58:01.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: We have them at the meetings.
[58:01.890 --> 58:14.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: And also, if you want to make a donation to the Kevin Mitnick Defense Fund, basically we have a minimum of 10 that people donate for, and they cost a dollar each, and you get it from $2,600.
[58:15.430 --> 58:18.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Does Kevin actually get his e-mail, or what does that get printed out?
[58:18.350 --> 58:19.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: His e-mail gets printed out and sent to him, yes.
[58:20.110 --> 58:20.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: Excellent.
[58:20.650 --> 58:20.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[58:21.090 --> 58:22.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, I'll follow you every week.
[58:22.970 --> 58:23.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right, thanks.
[58:23.690 --> 58:24.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Take care.
[58:24.170 --> 58:24.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: Take care.
[58:24.630 --> 58:25.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: And that's going to do it for us.
[58:25.750 --> 58:26.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: We're out of time.
[58:26.450 --> 58:36.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: We'll be back again next week with updates on this situation, and hopefully our confirmed method of protesting and where we're going to be doing it and where things stand.
[58:37.150 --> 58:38.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thanks, everybody, for all the support.
[58:38.350 --> 58:41.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you want to e-mail us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[58:41.130 --> 58:46.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you want to e-mail me personally, Emmanuel, E-M-M-A-N-U-E-L, at 2600.com.
[58:46.350 --> 58:55.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: You can also write to us here at Off The Hook, care of WBAI, 120 Wall Street, New York, New York, 1-0-0-0-5.
[58:55.550 --> 58:57.770]  [SPEAKER_21]: Until next week, Emmanuel Goldstein, see you again.
[58:58.010 --> 58:58.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good night.