We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
When the United States faces the fact that it is the last colonial power in the world,
certain people in the United States start asking themselves questions about what should happen regarding Puerto Rico.
July 25th marks the 100th anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Puerto Rico.
WBAI will commemorate this historic event with special programming beginning at 10.30 a.m. on Saturday, July 25th.
Tune in for a whole series of specials, including the documentary Puerto Rico,
Reflections on the Oldest Colony, plus live coverage of the U.N. rally against the U.S. colonialism in Puerto Rico.
So tune in all day, July 25th, beginning at 10.30 a.m. only on WBAI 99.5 FM.
And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where the time is, wow, the time is 8.02.
We're late, so it's time for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bum, diddley, bum, but the plastic's take the worst.
I hope that's understood, but diddley, bum!
Bum, diddley, bum, but the plastic's take the worst.
Bum, diddley, bum, but the plastic's take the worst.
Bum, diddley, bum, the plastic's take the worst.
We love to see you.
Soon the plastic, whose kunnen we look at all those tablets is E poorly Dieses Computer that Tabucha's take the worst.
However, it is quite delicious.
Very delicious.
We'll try to increase theeste ofidas a week.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
Boy, what a lot of fun that was.
It was great.
It was amazing.
It was more amazing than even I could have imagined.
Almost a religious experience.
Almost religious.
I wouldn't go so far as to say religious because, I don't know, I don't know if we want to get
into that fed area, but it was something else, something really, really cool.
Okay, first, a couple of quick headlines before we get into this.
Whitebo has passed in the house.
We suggest people go to the LOFT website to look this up, www.l0php.com, right?
Yeah, I have the same one in front of me.
Okay.
Soon it will be a federal crime to reverse engineer protection mechanisms.
Are you interested in the encryption used in real-world software?
Want to see how strong it is?
Or, more importantly, how well implemented it is?
Well, don't take a peek because you will be breaking the law of fined up to $2,500.
Are you a consulting business whose bread and butter is figuring out how these things really
work?
Don't bother selling this information to clients, or you could be fined up to $1,000,000.
Digital content providers like ourselves will not be able to open up the hood of the encryption
mechanisms that we buy to protect software we distribute.
We are not allowed to see if the mechanisms are flawed or easily circumvented.
The law says just say no.
No research, no investigation, no reverse engineering.
If we just make it illegal to look under the hood, no one will.
We know that this way of protecting systems is security by obscurity.
There are ways to build systems that are truly secure by making it a crime to pick apart
systems, any systems.
The legislature is harboring shoddy protection mechanisms and making it a crime to be a whistleblower.
You know, the real shame about all this is that we should be devoting a lot more time
to that.
We could devote a whole show, many shows, to that issue, but because of all the things
that we have to cover, we don't have really more time than that to spend on it.
So, it's a pretty sobering thing, ominous future, and I'm sure we'll have time in the
future to talk about this more.
Of course, that'll be after its law for a while.
It's been out on the net for a while.
Well, they've been talking about it for quite some time.
Quite some time.
We mentioned it a couple of times before.
What else?
I see this.
Electronic Frontier Foundation.
No, I didn't see that.
Electronic Frontier Foundation has raised the level of honesty in crypto politics by revealing
that the data encryption standard, DES, is insecure.
The U.S. government has long pressed industry to limit encryption to DES and even weaker forms
without revealing how easy it is to crack.
Continued adherence to this policy would put critical infrastructures at risk.
Society should choose a different course.
To prove the insecurity of DES, EFF built the first unclassified hardware for cracking
messages encoded with it.
On Wednesday of last week, the EFF DES cracker, which was built for less than $250,000, easily
won RSA Laboratories Desk Challenge 2 contest and a $10,000 cash prize.
It took the machine less than three days to complete the challenge, shattering the previous
record of 39 days set by a massive network of tens of thousands of computers.
The research results are fully documented in a book published last week, actually, by EFF
and O'Reilly and Associates entitled, Cracking Desk, Secrets of Encryption Research, Wiretap
Politics, and Chip Design.
Producing a workable policy for encryption has proven a very hard political challenge.
We believe that it will only be possible to craft good policies if all the players are
honest with one another and the public.
That, according to John Gilmore, EFF co-founder and Project Lead.
That's the guy that, you know, is in a film takedown.
Yeah.
We know him as the rat bastard who tried to stop Shimomura from finding Kevin Mitnick.
Yeah.
We'll get into that later.
When the government won't reveal relevant facts, says Gilmore, the private sector must
independently conduct the research and publish the results so that we can all see the social
trade-offs involved in policy choices.
So that's something else that I think is kind of fun.
Speaking of fun, you hear about this Virgin website thing?
Our First Time?
Yeah, myfirsttime.com or ourfirsttime.com.
Our First Time.com.
Something like that, yeah.
Which supposedly got hacked a couple of days ago after it was revealed to be a fraud.
And this was a couple or something that they were going to catalog their first intimate
experience or something like that?
A teenage couple, yes.
Supposedly the two so-called 18-year-old virgins slated to have sex live on the net for
August 4th.
Never intended to go through with it, says Seth Wojowski, founder of the Internet Entertainment
Group.
IEG, an adult site provider, has loudly pulled out of a no-cost sponsorship deal with the site.
Friday afternoon, IEG posted images of documents at one of its own sites, Club Love, to support
its claim that the Our First Time site is a money-making publicity hoax.
Well, gee whiz, that would be a first to the Internet, wouldn't it?
So that was kind of revealed to be what it was.
And then a couple days later, while the Netta Media community absorbs Friday's confirmation
that the Our First Time Teen Virgins webcast was a hoax, the site that promised to host the
bogus event, was taking its lumps from a hacker bent on revenge.
Supposedly the whole website got deleted, too, which I don't think that's too cool.
No.
That's pretty rare, too.
Most of the time they don't do that.
It is.
Sunday afternoon, the site's homepage was replaced with a message explaining that the
whole thing was a scam.
These scums simply wanted to capitalize on the media-doped people of our country, read
MagicFX's message on the altered Our First Time homepage.
The media loves a controversy, spelled wrong, don't they?
Well, now, don't you?
Yes, you feel stupid now that you two were duped.
There was never going to be any sex show.
On August 4th, the couple was going to decide to abstain after all you perverts paid your
entry fee.
Yes, the site was going to be turned into a pay site.
So, MagicFX also used the homepage to send a message to the hoax's perpetrator, Ken Tipton,
who used the alias Oscar Wells in an apparent tribute to director Orson Welles.
This sick-scum Oscar wanted to make himself appear equal to Orson Welles' genius.
Well, but it backfired.
Turn off the pornos, Oscar, go read a book, and get a life.
The message read.
So, that's where that stands.
Now, this is something that comes out of Long Island.
And this just goes to show that truth is stranger than fiction.
There is apparently this task force in the Suffolk County Police Department that deals
with computer hackers.
Listen to this quote that comes out of a conference that they had.
And this is, the guy who said this is the person in charge of the Suffolk County Police
Department, Detective Sergeant Robert Hack.
Robert Hack.
I don't make this up.
I mean, this is proof that I cannot possibly make this up.
This is real life.
The guy's name is Hack.
He's talking about hackers.
If you think you were violated, you probably were, said Hack.
On Long Island, there was a group calling themselves the 2600 Club.
I've heard of those guys.
They publish magazines.
They give out hacking tools.
They have conferences and meetings.
Yeah.
They are out there all around us infiltrating.
They're walking among us.
They could be walking right up to your door right now.
Who knows, man?
These people are everywhere.
Hackers, they're just like, they're like cockroaches, you know?
You can't stop them.
You squish one and ten take their place as well.
This Robert Hack guy, I mean, whoa.
I mean, do you think he got hired to be the hacker expert because of that being his name?
I would like to know his background.
And I'd certainly want to know.
I think this could be a hoax.
This could be another, you know, our first time type of hoax here.
Because, I mean, come on, that guy's name, you know, Oscar Wells, all right, that was obvious.
Yeah.
But Robert Hack, I mean, that's too obvious.
So it's a task force now that's devoted just to finding?
Apparently, apparently they, there's so much high-tech crime on Long Island,
and it's all because of hackers that they feel they have to do this.
I'd like to call up and find out.
I'd like to speak to Mr. Hack.
Yeah, and thanks to the person who faxed us that newsletter we weren't supposed to see.
Yeah.
But we always see them in the end.
Just like we always see the scripts we're not supposed to see.
Yeah, we have a new copy of the script, don't we?
We have a brand-new copy of the Takedown script.
We're going to get to that in just a moment, too, after we talk about the demonstration.
There was a program on CBC, Canadian Broadcasting Company Corporation or Conglomerate
or whatever they called themselves.
It was actually a repeat from a January show,
and it was about hackers and their public perception.
It was about Kevin Poulsen, who, as you may know, now works for ZDTV
and has done a bunch of articles on Kevin Mitnick, really good articles, too.
I was going to just say, they're really good articles.
Except he's not allowed to touch a computer himself because he's still in trouble.
I'd like to see the process on how he does all these articles and how he views them.
He must have to type on a typewriter and then give it to somebody that scans it into a machine.
Maybe they tell him about it or something.
He can't even see the website.
I wonder if he can stand across the room and look at the website from a distance.
If he can watch TV, maybe if they put it on a TV monitor.
If they put it on a TV set, he's looking at the, yes.
But what if it's web TV?
See, I don't know.
There's probably all sorts of weird...
I feel sorry for the government because, I mean,
how are they going to enforce these things when the differences between the technology
is becoming so thin?
Yeah.
Oh, boy.
Well, anyway, this program called Undercurrents was on this past weekend,
and the main story was about Kevin Poulsen.
They talked with him for a lot of the piece.
They basically portray him as the victim,
and they tell his side of the story,
how he worked for the government,
how he explained certain points against him.
Mitnick's mentioned,
although the main thrust of the show is not about Mitnick,
but I think it's a good sign that shows like this are on.
Hopefully we can get to people at Undercurrents or other such programs,
and maybe they'll do something about Kevin and get the word out about that.
I'm really impressed with the media right now.
They've been doing some excellent coverage.
Well, you know what's funny?
I mean, we had some media coverage.
In fact, we had CNBC out there.
Yeah.
Okay, do you want to play the CNBC piece?
Yeah.
We have the CNBC piece that we'd like to kind of show you for a little audio preview, I guess.
And that aired, I think, the day after?
Friday?
Friday.
Friday.
Friday twice.
And there's a very interesting thing about this, very interesting aspect to this,
which we'll get to as soon as we hear it.
Of course, I'm not sure this tape deck's going to work, so let's see if it actually comes up.
I pressed the button, but nothing happened.
Is the wheels moving?
Here we go.
All right.
Nice.
See, it's still not working.
Deficit due to the effects of the Asian crisis.
The arrest back in 1994 of computer hacker Kevin Mitnick put corporate America on notice about computer security.
The 35-year-old is now awaiting trial on numerous computer hacking-related charges.
His schemes alleging theft from companies like Motorola, Nokia, Novell, NEC, and Pac-Bell as well.
And now a movie is in the works about the hacker story.
But CNBC's Liz Klayman says a group of hackers want to short-circuit that film.
Waving banners that said free Kevin and holding stop Miramax posters,
the small but vocal crowd of protesters stood outside Miramax Pictures' New York offices yesterday.
At issue, this script entitled Takedown, the story of the nation's most notorious computer hacker, Kevin Mitnick.
Mitnick is currently being held in prison without bail, awaiting trial on computer crimes.
It's a script these Kevin Mitnick supporters say is libelous and would hurt Mitnick's chances of getting a fair trial.
It might influence a jury.
It might change a lot of things in a negative way.
I mean, he's trying so hard to at least get a trial,
and then this comes up where he's constantly being defamed.
Kevin Mitnick's past reads like a hacker's laundry list.
Convicted in 1988 and sentenced to two years for stealing computer codes from Digital Equipment Corp.
Violating parole two years later by breaking into Pac-Bell's voicemail system.
Fleeing from the FBI and going on the run for three years,
during which he allegedly stole millions of dollars in software.
Denying that he's ever hacked anything?
No, he's a hacker.
Emanuel Goldstein, editor of 2600 The Hacker Quarterly,
says what bothers him about the Miramax script is that Mitnick is unfairly portrayed as violent.
Black, he's clubbed on the side of the head.
Mitnick wielding the top of a metal garbage can like a weapon.
This is Hollywood, though.
They always take poetic license.
This is more than poetic license.
This is poetic wounding of a person.
The demonstrators here say they have sent a copy of this illicitly obtained script of the movie
to Kevin Mitnick in jail, and that he absolutely hates it.
Miramax's parent, Disney, may not like it either.
The controversy comes on the heels of the dumping of $43 million in Disney stock
by the Texas Board of Education.
The board's complaint?
That Miramax films have too much sex and violence.
Disney wants to make money, and Disney tries to stay out of a controversy.
So I think since Miramax has been in a little bit of heat as it is,
I don't know how much longer Disney and Miramax are going to be together.
Miramax told CNBC the company had, quote, no comment on the matter.
According to the protesters, production starts on the film next week,
and they say word is, Skeet Ulrich, the star of Miramax's thriller Scream,
will play the role of the mythical Kevin Mitnick.
Liz Clinton, today's business.
While Kevin Mitnick is accused of stealing thousands of credit card numbers and software files,
there is so far no evidence that he ever used any of the accounts or sold any of the software.
Straight up.
Now that's the interesting part, that little tag that they put on there at the very end.
That was a live tag that came after the story.
The story aired at least twice.
I saw it one other time, and there was a different announcer who said the exact same thing.
A lot of people saw it.
It was, you know, primetime, during the day primetime coverage.
Now it was, by the way, we're aware that it was only in one channel.
I think you must have recorded it in mono or something.
Really?
Yeah, it just came up on one channel.
But that's no big deal.
Small price to pay.
I was in a rush.
It happened.
You know, just to get this thing on the air was a miracle in itself.
So that was the primary major media coverage we got.
It was also, there was a story in the Los Angeles Times.
There was something.
Wired, I believe, Village Voice is coming up with something as well.
And who knows who else?
A lot of people are clamoring for the story now that it's happened.
Yeah, it's funny, you know.
Yeah, but the thing is, that very day we found out that the day before, a new script had been released
that addressed quite a few of our issues.
It really did in many ways.
I just got a copy of it right before the show, so I haven't had a chance to really look it over.
But I will say this, the very beginning of the script is infinitely better than the beginning of the last two.
Actually, I got another copy between last week's show and this week's show of version two.
And it was better.
It was better written, but it wasn't much better as far as what they say about Kevin, how they portray him.
This one seems to be getting, you know, a lot better.
But there are still some major problems.
I mean, you know, at the very beginning, they show you how social engineering works.
I think they do a really good job.
I really do think they, you know, portray it well.
But the garbage can scene, it's still in there.
They're not going to take that.
You know, it seems like they're almost listening and they're starting to change things, which is good.
But, I mean, that's the thing that people are most upset about.
We've been saying that, and the racist comments are still there.
Right, that's the thing that we come up to people and we say,
that they're portraying this guy as someone who smashes someone over the head with a garbage can lid
when, you know, he never met the person, A, and B, he doesn't smash people with anything.
So it's pretty silly.
I don't know what the point is.
I mean, if you go out to see a movie, do you have to see somebody bash somebody with something
in order for you to be satisfied?
No.
I think the American public is a little bit more advanced than that.
You know, we can probably, you know, do without that scene,
especially since it's based on reality and it never happened.
That's why Disney's getting upset with Miramax,
because they're consistently putting violence in their films.
Well, I think they're probably worried about, you know, more violence,
like, you know, blowing holes in people and things like that,
and just bashing with a garbage can.
I mean, that might be a funny thing.
They might be making it seem comical.
There might be, you know, Three Stooges music playing while it happens.
Maybe you poke Shimon Moore and yuck, yuck, yuck, you know, kind of.
Yeah, that could be fun.
Let's not give them ideas, though, about getting a contract first.
But that scene is probably what I would point to as the biggest thing that disturbs people right now.
So I'm a little concerned with the beginning of the script,
which is really all I was able to read at the beginning,
and I looked to see if the garbage can scene was there,
because that's always what I do with these scripts, and it was.
But at the very beginning, it just seems like Kevin is a bit of a, I don't know,
too shadowy, too, you know, too good a criminal.
But at the same time, they also make him out to be a victim, which he is.
And let me see if I can find the actual.
Yeah, the second version of the script has, like, these weird comments.
It's like, you know, Kevin didn't have a dad growing up,
and they kind of make him, you know, you feel sorry for him.
I'm wondering if they're trying to, you know, the tragic hero, perhaps, or something.
I don't know, but I.
Well, I think they were trying to find some reason.
Yeah, like, why does he do this?
Yeah, because in the second version, I'm not sure if this is in the third version,
which is actually a shooting script,
so that implies they're not going to make very many changes from this point on.
Julia Menapace, the person that Shimomura stole from John.
John Gilmore, who John Gilmore in this version of the film refers to as stolen property,
which I know John Gilmore would never refer to a human being in that way.
Basically, she becomes some sort of psychoanalyst,
and she's saying how 93% of hackers come from broken homes,
and that explains why they're hackers, you know.
It's like, yeah, okay, whatever.
But she's got all these, like, psychological reasons why Kevin does what he does.
Now, in this particular script, the interesting part is when Louis Dupain,
who is Kevin's friend, tells him,
and this is after they find a little toy that allows him to listen in on Agent Steele,
who is now in the script.
Agent Steele.
On his phone, where he's talking to the FBI, talking about Kevin Mitnick,
and revealing that they do, in fact, want to arrest him for something.
Dupain says to Kevin,
And it's just a matter of time, Kev, before they knock on the door.
They want you bad.
And this was before he became a fugitive.
And Kevin says,
My parole's up in three days.
And Dupain says,
They'll be here in three days and five minutes.
So right there, that shows you that Kevin was targeted.
Yeah.
As somebody that they just want to lock up, you know,
just for the sake of locking him up or sending a message.
They refer to the New York Times story of July 4, 1994,
and there is bewilderment as to why that story was page one,
which was something that we had a major problem with in the first script.
The story just appeared, and nobody was asking why.
And it made it seem like, you know, that was justifiable,
that Mitnick was actually, you know, that much of a threat,
that he belongs on page one of the paper.
Well, now there's some question being raised in the script as to why that is.
So, yes, there has been progress made.
It appears that they're listening.
I think everybody who showed up on Thursday has a lot to be proud of,
because, you know, it's, first of all,
everybody behaves themselves really well.
We had riot police there, but they were just passing by.
Yeah, they were on horses.
That was kind of neat.
One of them got a Kevin button.
I think his name was Kevin, or he had a friend named Kevin.
Is every cop named Kevin?
There's a lot of people named Kevin.
In fact, people were stopping underneath the big Free Kevin banner
and getting their picture taken who were named Kevin.
They're like, oh, you know.
Oh, that's just great.
Why don't we charge admission?
I think we should and donate it to the defense fund, you know.
There are a lot of people named Kevin.
I met one today, in fact,
one of the people that pushes grocery carts outside supermarkets.
Yeah.
Because I was with the van, and the van says Free Kevin on it,
and he wanted to know, you know, he thought he was free already.
So I gave him a couple of stickers,
and when I left, he was reading the leaflet,
which, by the way, the leaflet is really great.
That's something that we're handing out all over the place.
Yeah.
And now that everybody's, yeah, you see the Free Kevin stickers everywhere.
Everyone's wondering who Kevin is.
Yeah.
Which is exactly where this should be right now.
Now you tell them who Kevin is by handing out the leaflets.
Yeah.
And what we're going to be doing over the next couple of weeks
is traveling around the country and spreading the word.
We went to some theaters over the weekend,
and we're handing out leaflets and telling people about Kevin Mitnick.
And a lot of people, get this,
we pull up with the 2600 van to a theater, right,
and we're about to hand out, you know, leaflets and buttons
and whatever else just to educate people.
The very first person we see,
this is before we even get out of the van,
is a screenwriter.
A screenwriter, a famous one, too.
Really?
I won't say what he's written,
but it's, you know, a real person
who wants to do the story right, you know,
is fascinated by the story,
a big supporter of us wants to do it right.
Wow.
I mean, that's something.
That's amazing.
So the people who came in the next couple of hours
over the two theaters we went to
were extremely supportive.
You know how when you hand things out on the street corner,
usually people just sort of rush by you.
I mean, I don't do that often,
but that's the impression I get.
Well, in this particular case,
people were coming up to us wanting more,
you know, and wanting to know more as well.
So it was really cool.
If people still want to get that flyer
and download it and print it and put it wherever,
they can get it on kevinmitnick.com,
www.kevinmitnick.com,
as well as some articles from the rally,
some pictures from the rally,
which turned out really nice.
A lot of pictures, yeah.
Yeah, like there was like 40 or 50 of them on there.
And also I'm sure we'll have a review
of the third script up there shortly.
Right.
But certainly I've heard of a lot of people.
In fact, there's a flyer archive.
We'll be putting a link on kevinmitnick.com
of people who made flyers as well,
and they're just going everywhere,
universities,
anywhere that you can imagine where flyers should be
and could be.
That's where they're showing up now.
And it's important to get the word out all over the place.
People are interested.
People are supportive.
Yeah.
I don't think we really ran into anybody
that said we were wrong
for saying the things that we're saying
and for attacking Miramax for doing this.
Yeah.
And I think there's a lot of people in Miramax
that feel the same way
based on the reaction that I've seen
from various people I've talked to.
Yeah.
I mean, unofficially, of course,
because all official contact,
there hasn't been any.
Miramax just doesn't comment.
They're totally silent.
And calls we make to them
just don't ever come back to us.
But I think eventually we'll hear something from them.
I hope.
I think the script is a good sign
that at least they're trying something.
Seems like they're listening.
Yeah.
Again, I don't want to speak prematurely
because I haven't read the whole script.
There could be Mitnick's Nazi days
in there somewhere
that hasn't quite made it out yet.
I don't know.
We have to see exactly what it is.
Let's read a couple of letters that come in.
Should the final release of Takedown
include the whistling touchtone scene,
it wouldn't be the first.
In the movie Couch Trip,
Dan Aykroyd hums touchtones into a phone
while escaping from a mental institution.
Yeah.
He then clobbers a guard over the head
with a trash can lid.
Just kidding.
So that's kind of fun.
Yeah.
Here's another letter.
Just wanted to say thanks
for setting me straight about Kevin.
I recently discovered Off the Hook
and have been listening
to the back issues continuously.
Like many people,
my whole take on the story
was from Marco Spiel in Cyberpunk
and what I saw in the news.
I had no idea the case
had never been to trial
and that he was still locked up
after all this time.
It makes me sick.
I think government paranoia
about hackers
stems directly from fear of technology
they themselves don't understand.
I have an establishment type job
in that I manage computer networks
for a school district
and part of my job
is trying to protect my systems
from 1700 little hackers.
Where my colleagues freak out
at the antics of hackers
I usually try to learn something.
I think the Alt-A2600 fact
should be required reading
for any IS professional
and I fear that until
one of these kids
gets elected president
incidents like Kevin's
will continue to happen.
Well, let me know
if there's anything
we out here in the sticks
can do to help the cause
keep up the good work.
Well, what do you think
people out in the sticks
can do to help?
Well, people out in the sticks
can, of course,
always go to the website
and see what they can do.
We have a lot of things outlined.
They can write to their senators.
They can write to their congressmen.
They can donate money
to the defense fund.
They can print out the flyers.
That's one of the great things
about the internet
is we're doing a lot
of things out here
but it's worldwide.
Anybody can go
and educate themselves
and educate everybody else.
That's right.
And there's no such thing
as the sticks anymore.
I don't know.
I think that's a...
Well, there is.
I mean, I grew up
in the sticks but...
No, you didn't grow up
in the sticks.
I mean the real sticks.
I grew up in Florida.
Places like what we're
going to be seeing
over the next couple of years.
I grew up in the Everglades.
I don't know.
It was sticky perhaps.
I think, you know,
talk to those other people
out in the sticks
and get them to realize it.
We have one entire town
out in the sticks
on our side.
That's a good thing.
Yeah.
You know.
The thing is,
those free Kevin stickers
are going to stay up forever.
Yeah.
They really will.
I mean, those good stickers
they stay up for 20 years
at a time.
So anyone else
who's Kevin
and needs to be free
is going to benefit from that.
Here's another letter.
I'm sitting here
at the local cyber cafe
in Cambridge.
That's over in England.
And guess what?
The BBC is filming
a documentary.
They are also filming me.
So I put up
the free Kevin banner.
Hopefully this will work
to get a story exposed.
They're here doing a story
on the history
of the internet.
Great.
You know,
people in Europe
don't quite understand
what's going on with Kevin.
When you try to explain,
I mean,
you've been over there recently.
They don't get it.
They're like,
what's going on?
Why is it like,
I thought this was America.
Right.
And then there was
that recent thing
in Israel
with the analyzer
who got a job.
People are amazed
by the things
that happen over here
sometimes.
Yeah.
You know,
we're pretty much
what everybody strives to be,
a democracy,
or tries to be.
And it's not working out.
But it's working out
in the sense that
people are spreading the word,
people are demonstrating.
To actually come down
to Miramax
and demonstrate like that
for a couple hours,
you know,
it's not something
the average person does.
It takes a lot of guts
to actually do that.
And, you know,
I think everybody who went
had a good time, too.
Yeah.
Not that it was,
you know,
that's the purpose of it was,
but it was,
it feels good
to be able to express yourself
and know that,
you know,
you're saying something
that you believe in.
And it did have an effect.
Make no mistake about that.
It had an effect.
People were walking by
in and out of the Miramax,
including the president
of the Miramax.
I don't know if people know that,
but he walked in at one point
and they know about it.
They know what we're out there.
They know our concerns.
And thanks to that demonstration,
millions more people now know
because it got on TV,
it got into newspapers.
And that's how you do it.
That's how you start
any kind of movement.
These are people who never met,
which I thought was amazing.
These are just people
that found out
through the radio show here,
the website,
you know,
email.
It's, I think,
one of the first times
that something like this
was organized
and these people
never met before.
There wasn't a,
you know,
besides the meeting in the city,
but a lot of people
that were there
either weren't there
or they didn't know,
you know, later.
But it's certainly interesting.
You know who was cool?
The lawyer.
We had a lawyer
come from the National Lawyers Guild.
Yeah.
It's just really comforting
to have a lawyer with you
when you're demonstrating.
Yeah.
You can walk up to people
and say,
no, you can say that
to these people.
They can do this.
They can do that.
They can't do that,
but they can do this.
And he was wearing
the free Kevin button
and everything.
And he gave us
Yeah, I thought
that was pretty funny.
It was really cool.
He walked up and said,
oh, this is going to be calm.
They're just computer guys.
Everything's going to be fine.
Yeah.
Here's a sticker.
Yeah.
All right, our phone number
is 212-209-2900.
We'll be taking phone calls
in just about two minutes.
Stay tuned.
You know, we're in a studio.
We're in a studio with a good sound.
We know what sound is.
Good sound is good.
We know what good sound is.
That's good.
We're always trying to perfect that.
That, that, that, that, that, that, that.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
And again, that phone number
is 212-209-2900.
You're listening to
Off the Hook,
Emmanuel over here,
Phil over there.
And the things that come next
are going to be rather interesting too.
We're going to be voyaging
throughout the land.
In fact, there's a piece
about this on our website.
If you know of an interesting place
that we should stop in,
we're making a little documentary
of our own about what's happening
with this whole Kevin thing,
with the film,
with the movement to get him
out of prison once and for all,
to the overall mood
about hackers in general.
And if you have something
that you feel can contribute
to that,
please contact us
at a special email address
that we've set up,
film,
F-I-L-M
at 2600.com.
We're going to be heading out
starting later this week
and heading in the general direction
of Las Vegas,
which is where DEF CON is,
the annual hacker convention.
That's taking place
the weekend after next.
And from there,
we'll probably be wandering around
the West Coast a bit
and various other parts
of the country.
And eventually,
we'll wind up right back here.
So we know there's lots
of stories out there.
We know there's lots of things
to show people
who are interested in hacking
and interested in the hacker world
and just seeing things
from our perspective.
So feel free to give us a shout
if you know something
that's interesting
in that particular regard.
You've got the script now.
Yes, I have a script.
And what do you think of it?
Well, you know,
of course I couldn't read it
and just admit to that song.
You could if you watched
that guy on TV,
the speed reader guy.
Read manuals,
read all your favorite publications.
What I understand about that
is why the guy
that's talking to him
doesn't just do it himself.
It's like,
I can't do this.
You're incredible.
I'm stupid.
If it really bothers you,
all you have to do
is take his chorus
and then you won't be stupid anymore.
But I just think it's funny
how the guy interviewing him
and the guy that he's interviewing
worked for the same company.
Yeah.
But that's typical
American plasticness.
Some of the things
I thought was funny
that I saw,
I don't know if it's still
in the third revision,
but they have Kevin portrayed
a little bit different.
I guess maybe he's more moral.
I don't know.
He says no to a joint.
They offer it to him.
Yeah.
In the second version,
his,
well,
it's interesting
because this girl
who lives in the apartment
with him and Depayne
supposedly used to go out
with Kevin
and now goes out
with Depayne.
In the third version,
it's his wife.
Oh.
And I think there's a hint
that they're having an affair
with her and Depayne
or something like that.
I don't know.
I haven't gotten to
that part of it yet.
But yeah,
she offers him a joint
and he looks at it,
thinks,
and says no to drugs.
That's good.
So yeah,
I mean,
you know,
I don't know.
He's anti-
You don't see Shimomura
shooting up later
in the thing,
so it's not really
like a contrast
of any sort.
And also,
Mitnick still uses
scanning as a substitute
for sex.
Yeah,
that was weird.
Not tonight,
dear,
I have a modem
or something.
No,
he's with his girlfriend
and he's like,
you know,
sitting on a couch
awkwardly
and then he goes,
hey,
do you ever scan?
And it just becomes
really awkward
at that point.
And then she rebuffs
his attempts
to get her interested
in scanning
and he's crushed
and that's the last
he ever sees of her.
Yeah,
that's really silly.
You know,
it's funny how they're
trying to make him
look good in some lights
and then I,
me personally,
I think it's getting
a little worse
for him personally
because they're having
him going to the NSA,
they're having him
with this super virus
that can,
you know,
I'm going to quote
from here.
You can crash
the Air Force
with this virus.
Hell,
you can crash
Wall Street
with this virus.
Yeah,
that's ridiculous.
You know,
granted,
maybe if they take out
the garbage can scene,
the racist scene,
but now they're having him
do something
that he didn't do,
this magical virus.
Well,
you know,
I mean,
Hollywood has to have
its viruses
as far as,
you know,
computer viruses.
Yeah,
computer viruses,
every movie has to have
a computer virus
that can do all this harm,
but why have Kevin
be the person
that's planting it?
I mean,
yeah,
if you have to go
down that road,
and I wouldn't go
to go down that road,
all right,
have your little virus,
but don't make Kevin
the instigator
because he never
did anything like that.
You know,
that's only fair.
I'm wondering
if they're going
to change it
to have him
have to play chess
against some supercomputer
so the nuclear warheads
don't go off
or something like that.
No,
that's what they're going
to play.
Okay,
Phil,
you picked a number
last week,
I believe.
Yeah,
but you were wrong.
You were very wrong,
so I'm going to ask you
again to pick a number
this week.
Last week,
I picked three.
You picked three,
and three was,
you know,
it almost makes me wonder
reading the Mitnick script
and seeing how Mitnick
has all these powers
and can like,
you know,
make phones do anything,
I'm wondering
if we're dealing
with something like that
here where he can
just put himself
any place.
I think so.
And you know,
we say the number
and he just puts himself
someplace.
I'm scared to pick
the number actually.
Okay,
well at this time
we don't say the number
out loud.
You hold up your hand
or hands if it's
more than five
and then I push
the corresponding button
and unless he has
a camera in here,
there's no way
he can move
his phone call
to that line.
Okay,
you ready?
Yeah.
Okay,
I got it.
We're ready.
Good evening.
Hello.
Oh,
it worked.
Wow.
The number was six
and he was not
on that line.
How you doing?
What's up?
Okay,
yeah,
I was just wondering
that,
remember back
like a couple months ago
when the analyzers
supposedly attacked
the Pentagon
and all of a sudden
Janet Reno
and the Justice Department
all of a sudden
submitted
a request
for more money,
requesting more money
for,
for,
for,
for,
right.
Well,
it happened right
after the California
teenagers were accused
of hacking into the military
at the behest
of the analyzer
over in Israel.
Yeah,
and,
you know,
we were asking
the same question
at the time,
why,
you know,
where is the story here?
This has to be leading up
to something
and sure enough
they start asking
for all this money
to,
you know,
to battle computer crime
like it's a real crisis.
Yeah,
and also,
I also noticed
a very strange
and peculiar pattern
and way that,
I guess you can call them
cyber laws are made,
is that,
for example,
I heard that Tempest
proof,
keeping your computer
like Tempest proof
so nobody can monitor
using Tempest monitoring
equipment is illegal
and you cannot protect yourself
without violating the law.
Well,
that sounds like part of the,
you know,
the wiper thing
that just got passed.
Again,
you know,
that has yet to be tested.
We don't know how far
they're going to push this
or if it's just,
you know,
some sort of silly wording.
But,
you know,
I think really
the way to test it
is for us to test it
and,
you know,
refuse to play by stupid rules
that don't make any sense.
You know,
like massive civil disobedience.
Exactly.
I mean,
civil disobedience
helps stop one war.
It can help stop this.
Yeah.
Okay?
Okay, bye.
Thanks for calling.
That's really
what it's coming down to,
you know.
Well,
you know,
I really fear this
wiper thing
because in other countries
you can still reverse engineer
so America's going to lose
its foothold
in technology
because we can't
disassemble things
that we purchase
and we can't
see how they work
and see if they're secure
and see if they're
capable of
what we want them to do.
It's ridiculous.
It's silly.
But it's typical.
Something else
we forgot to mention
in the script
in the newer versions.
Some names
are protected.
Really?
Yeah.
Like certain corporate names
are protected.
Yeah,
I heard about this.
Yeah,
now,
Oki is a cellular company
that was mentioned
quite specifically
in the first version
of the script.
All of a sudden,
the name of the company
is Nokie.
Like it's a mixture
of Oki and Nokia.
Nokia, yeah.
So, you know,
I have to wonder,
now how come
these guys,
they probably just had
to send out
a memo or something
and get that fixed.
But, you know,
a human individual
has so much trouble,
you know,
it makes you wonder
who's really
controlling things here.
Well, this makes you wonder
with the, you know,
the public figure thing.
If Kevin's not
a public figure,
then they do need
his permission.
Right.
And that'd be
pretty interesting
right before the film goes
if someone says,
you know,
gosh, Kevin,
mind if we use your name?
And he says yes
or says no.
You know,
it could all hinge
on his one answer.
You know,
that would be
an interesting outcome
of the whole thing.
Yeah.
We do know the film
will be shot
in Wilmington,
North Carolina.
They're talking
late July,
early August.
And when we know more,
you'll know more.
Now, it's going to be
interesting next few weeks
because we'll be
on the road.
The show will continue,
though.
Usually when we've
gone on the road
in the past,
we've had repeats on.
But this time,
we're going to try
something new
we're actually going
to broadcast
from far away.
Of course,
it'll sound like
I'm on the phone
because I will be
on the phone.
And I believe
you'll be here
in the studio.
Yeah, I'll be here.
So you'll sound okay.
I'll just sound
kind of weird.
And hopefully,
we'll be able
to take phone calls.
Claude, the engineer,
will be here
and he'll have a week
to figure that out.
And we'll keep people
apprised of the situation
as it changes.
It'll be interesting.
It will be changing.
It's been changing
every week.
It's been changing
radically every week.
And this is really
something that a lot
of people have
taken an interest in.
And it'll be amazing
to see just how
it turns out.
I mean, the protest
was one step.
Going to the theaters
over the weekend
was another.
What happens
from this point on
is just going to
just keep moving
us in the direction.
I can't wait
to see how or hear
how the rest
of the country
feels about this.
Yeah.
I mean, we think
we're, you know,
based on the mail,
you know, people
seem very sympathetic
about this
and they want
to know more.
And just, you know,
forget the film,
just the fact that
Kevin has been
in prison for
three and a half years.
I mean, you know,
we could have,
the film could be great.
The film could, you know,
address all of our issues
and be perfect.
You know, the best film
ever made.
But Kevin's still in prison.
Yeah.
Still been in prison
three and a half years.
No trial, no bail,
no visitors.
When I say no visitors,
I mean no visitors
other than immediate family,
which really limits it
to a couple of people.
Yeah.
And he doesn't have
that many, you know,
immediate family
in the first place.
And lawyers,
which, you know,
when you get visits
from lawyers,
yeah, it's fun,
but it's not that much fun.
So,
I'd be upset
if I can only see
my family
and just my lawyer.
Yeah.
You know.
It's, it's, it's hell.
It's living hell.
Three and a half years.
Just try to picture
where were you
three and a half years ago?
You know,
imagine being in the same room,
which is basically
what he's been in
all that time,
not really, you know,
seeing the outdoors,
not being able
to interact with people.
And add to that
the two years before that,
that he was spent,
he spent living
as a fugitive,
afraid of being caught,
afraid of winding up
in prison.
And if that's not enough for you,
add the few months
he spent in solitary confinement
in 1989
because he was a computer hacker
that was locked up,
you know,
then for crimes
that people did not understand
and turned out
not to really be crimes.
You know,
he was accused
of all these things
that just never happened
similar to today.
But because people
have such a fear
of, of, of hackers,
they say,
well, you know,
this is something
that we have to,
you know, react to.
We have to,
we have to lock him up
and keep him away from phones
or he'll do something
that we don't understand.
It's, you know,
it's a tragedy.
You know,
I spoke with Kevin
and it's kind of funny
but maybe it's not.
He's been in so long
I was trying to explain
to him the concept
of real audio,
how we broadcast a show
and he didn't,
couldn't quite get it
because he's been in so long
real audio
didn't come out
until recently.
So he's like,
oh, you don't download the file
you actually listen to it
as it downloads
and that's kind of cool.
It's actually been out a while.
Yeah, but.
I mean, when you think of it
it has been out a while
but, you know,
three and a,
that's, that's,
yeah.
When it was debuting
it wasn't, you know,
it was still in beta
and he was, you know,
going off.
And think of all the things
that have happened
with the web
over the last three and a half years.
It's more graphical,
it's faster,
there's information
being exchanged
a lot better.
And it's almost like
they're getting what they want
by making him completely
out of touch.
But, you know,
we can help by,
by talking to him,
updating him on things like that.
Not just talking about,
you know,
his current situation
but also just all the things
that are happening
that he'd be interested in.
It's, you know,
it's, it's wrong for somebody
to be denied that
because these are
very exciting times.
These are times
when things change daily
and he should be part of that.
It's part of the whole story.
All right,
let's take another phone call.
Good evening,
you're on the air.
Speak up, please.
Oh, hello?
Yes, go ahead.
Yeah, I was just wondering
what's going on there
because I'm not getting
any access to a computer
where I am.
What do you mean
what's going on there?
Like, what are you guys
talking about?
Okay, listen, folks.
Don't call the show
if you don't know
what we're talking about.
All right?
I don't want to be rude here
but we only have an hour
and it's pointless
for you to call in
and say,
what are you guys
talking about?
Because we'd have to go
through the whole thing again
just for your benefit.
It's a radio show.
You know,
the concept of radio
is you listen to it.
Not much point
calling us up
and being part of the radio show
if you're not listening to it.
All right.
Good evening,
you're on the air.
Hi, Manuel.
Shouldn't I hit that button?
I knew it as soon as I hit the button.
I shouldn't.
See, I felt it though.
I felt it on my finger.
There's like a burning sensation
you get when you push
the button that he's on.
Well, I couldn't get to the front.
How do you do it though?
How do you do it?
You're Mitnick of the East.
That's what you are.
Yeah, Mitnick of the East.
They should write a film about,
they could write a film about Rebels.
Yeah.
Have you ever hit anybody
with garbage can lights?
Have you ever bashed somebody
over the head
with a garbage can light?
I felt like doing it once,
but I never actually did it.
But you've been bashed yourself many times.
Well, no,
I've never been bashed in my life.
Oh.
There's something you'd have to try.
Okay, well.
It's a challenge.
But anyway.
Only kidding, Nick.
What's going on?
When I call you on my cellular phone,
you know,
my cellular company,
Bell Atlantic Mobile,
when I call you
and let it ring all the time,
they charge you for the ringing.
In other words,
they charge you as it's connecting.
Is that because B.A.I.
is on a sort of a PBX
that the cellular company
thinks it's picking up
and it's like a D.I.D. PBX?
Well, wait.
Is this only for us
or is it for every call you make?
No, no.
It's just for you.
Well, that could be
because we use,
what is it,
TCG now is our local company?
They may have a different way
of picking up phone calls
where it will actually,
that would be wrong
if that's true.
I'd like to know
if any of those
have a problem.
I mean,
I'm paying through the nose for this,
but I mean,
it's worth it.
That would be very wrong.
I mean,
that's something that I think
also is like illegal.
So if someone out there
contests that for us,
And you know,
when I contested the phone call,
when I contested the Atlantic Mobile,
they don't understand.
They say,
Well, what do you want?
Of course they don't understand.
Yeah, but they don't,
they said,
Why did you let the phone ring
so many times?
And I, you know,
I was trying to explain
I was calling a radio show,
but you don't really,
I mean,
they just don't understand.
But anyway,
I'd like to mention
that I was,
I was at the protest,
but I sort of got there later.
I was sort of busy.
You weren't at the protest.
Nobody saw you.
No, I wasn't.
I was there,
but I,
you,
I was too late,
I guess.
You left my girlie.
I was there by two.
It depends what time.
We were there from 1230
to about,
what is it,
2, 215?
Yeah.
See, I got there after.
Yeah.
Well, I mean,
you know,
protests don't usually last all day.
Well, I had work to do.
I had work to do, so.
Yeah.
Well, you know,
everybody tried to take some time
to get down there,
but, you know,
thanks for the effort.
We appreciate it.
But I'll,
but I'll be at the 26th.
Well, I'll try and be,
but I've been traveling lately
and I've been playing
with different phones
across the country
and, you know,
in hotels.
I've been, you know.
And they're trying to,
they're trying to catch up to you,
right?
Yeah.
In Pennsylvania,
the phones in Pennsylvania
and hotels and hotels
are very secure.
You cannot use
the local Bill Atlantic operator,
nor can you use AT&T
or any other carrier,
carrier,
to make phone calls.
In other words.
There's how much people out there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like New York
or New Jersey,
you can have the
Bill Atlantic operator
dial the phone number for you
instead of dialing nine
and then the number
and getting charged
by the hotel.
So just dial nine,
have the Bill Atlantic operator
transfer you to,
yeah.
Okay.
Listen,
I don't want to,
I don't want to debate
that this is indeed
a fascinating subject,
but we can't talk about this
every week
as far as hotel phones.
Is there anything else
you want to say to us?
Not that I can think of,
but.
Okay.
Well, that's fine, man.
Thanks.
Thanks for calling.
Let's go to another phone call.
212-209-2900.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Emmanuel,
how are you doing?
It's Tommy.
How are you doing?
T-Cat, you know.
What's up?
From MTV.
It was a great protest.
I congratulate everybody
on going to the protest.
Glad we could have done that.
Yeah, it was definitely
a fun experience.
It was an awful fun experience,
yeah.
Talking about the WIPO stuff,
though,
WIPO as far as we call it,
I was in an advanced NT class today
over at Netland,
and I started discussing it to them,
and I said,
look at this,
reverse engineering,
blah, blah, blah,
and I started to show her
how I can hack through an NT system,
and I cracked all the passwords
in our class.
So you got arrested on the spot.
And I said,
look,
and even before it was 2% done,
and I said,
and this tests our security here
in the building,
blah, blah, blah,
and she goes,
oh, my God,
and I said,
and they're going to take it away from us.
She goes,
yeah,
and then the Europeans
are going to crack us.
I said,
exactly.
Darn Europeans.
I don't think the Europeans
are really the problem.
I think we're the problem
because we keep making these stupid laws
to cripple ourselves.
There was a packer,
Pango,
who was a big problem,
you know,
because he was dealing
with the KGB and stuff,
so you never know
if it might be...
He didn't really help the KGB
as much as Marco
seemed to think he did.
Yeah, I know.
It just turned out to be,
oh,
we need C++.
What the heck?
C++ paying $75,000 for it.
I don't understand
that part of the book.
They might have gotten
the figures wrong
or something.
Anything else
you want to leave us with?
We want to move on
to a few more calls.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's about it.
I just wanted to catch up
with you and congratulate you guys.
Well, congratulations to you, too.
Everybody who showed up,
I think,
is a congratulations.
I wish I could have joined you
out in DEFCON there,
but unfortunately...
Oh, we'll all be together
in spirit, you know.
You know,
all the airlines are up
to like $400 now.
Yeah.
Oh, I've got an airline story.
I'll tell that
as soon as I release you.
All right.
Tell the horrible airline story.
Thanks for calling.
I learned something
about frequent flyers, okay,
because basically
what I'm trying to do
is trying to help
a friend out
who wants to go out
to DEFCON,
and I have enough miles
to get out there,
you know,
to take a free plane ride
anywhere in the country.
So I said,
okay, great.
I called up the airline,
and said,
is this flight available?
And I said,
yes, this flight is available.
You know,
I said, great.
I'd like to use
my frequent flyer miles
to purchase this.
And then I heard
this like organ chord,
you know,
like the ominous sound music,
you know,
and it was like
all of a sudden
the mood changed.
There was thunder in the air
and the sky darkened.
And they said,
well, that flight is sold out
for frequent flyers.
Oh, for frequent flyers.
All of a sudden,
I'm being treated
as a different type of person.
When I enrolled for this thing,
they told me that I'd get,
you know,
treated just like
a regular person.
I'd have all these privileges.
I'd be part of this,
like, honor society
type of thing
where I could call up
any time and ask them,
you know,
to tie my shoe
or something,
and they'd do it.
And now,
when I'm finally
trying to cash in on it,
they treat me
like I'm asking them
for the moon.
And it was basically
a very bad situation
because then
I had to go through
this whole big deal
on finding a flight
that was open for that.
And then,
on top of that,
when I finally did,
I found a totally
inconvenient flight
and I couldn't do it at night.
I could only do it
in the daytime.
They close at night
so you can't order it then.
Well,
at that time,
when I finally
got the ticket,
they said,
and we're going to charge you
$50 for doing this
with less than 21 days.
So,
on my free flight
now,
it cost me $50
and it's not free anymore
and I'm using up
all my miles.
I mean,
that's not good.
And you're trapped
to what they say
what's available for you.
I'll say it right now.
TWA is the airline
that did it.
Really?
Yeah.
So,
on their different flights,
if you're a frequent flyer
customer or have enough miles,
they can be sold out
for your particular group?
There's all kinds.
You're a second class citizen,
basically.
I mean,
when you get on the plane,
I guess they treat you the same.
Are you sure you're going
to be sitting in
with everybody else
or will it be in the cargo section?
It might be cargo.
Who knows?
It's really kind of silly
the way they do things.
A couple of the consumer notes
and I'm going to try
to take one more phone call.
Sprint PCS service
has been awful recently.
I don't know if people
have been talking about this,
but everybody I know
has been having a lot of trouble.
I don't know what the problem is,
but calls are being dropped
all the time.
Basically,
I was walking around
the city the other day
and I was gauging
the success rate.
70,
I'd say between 70%
and 80% failure rate
on calls.
Wow.
And of the calls
that you're on,
you cannot understand
people a lot of the time
and it's just standing still.
It's like the signal
is a wave
that comes and goes
and the tide goes out
and basically you say,
I'm on a Sprint phone.
People say,
oh, I understand.
You can't understand
anything I'm saying.
So Sprint really has
to do something about that.
Now Omnipoint,
I don't think I'm ever
going to complain
about Omnipoint again
because remember
when I went away
a few weeks ago
to Atlanta
and various other places?
It seems they didn't
charge me for any of those calls
I made from there.
I don't know
what it is
if they take
a couple of months
to get the billing information
but right now
it's no charge whatsoever.
Maybe it's kind of
how you get a speeding ticket
in another state
and it doesn't catch up
with you.
Who knows?
But I'll keep you
updated on this.
It's a bit of a surprise to me
and a good surprise
for a change.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Hey, how are you doing?
Pretty good.
How are you?
I have two questions.
First, I know
that Kevin was 30.
I thought it was like
when I first heard this story
it was like a young kid
who hacked into a system
randomly
but he had a prior record
you said.
He was on parole
or probation
and he hacked again.
I mean,
I'm not trying
to put the guy down
but isn't that
a little reckless
knowing you have a record
to perpetuate the same crime?
Before we even
get into that
let's assume
that he did.
Let's assume
that he hacked again
and he did everything
he was accused of.
How much time
do you give somebody
for something like that?
Granted.
I don't understand why.
Let's just establish
that to begin with.
I agree with you there.
I don't know why
isn't there something
called the speedy trial clause?
Yeah, well there is
but lots of times
when you're a defendant
you're pressured
to give that up
so that you can have
a good defense.
When you have a lot
of evidence
presented against you
and you move too fast
you can't examine
the evidence
with enough time.
They still have
an outing to.
Is that much evidence
in the trial?
9.75 gigs.
Just convert that
to paper,
pages.
Did we try that?
Yeah, we're working
on that.
It's taller
than most buildings.
Taller than most buildings
and he doesn't have
access to a lot of it
because it's on computer
and he's not allowed
to use a computer.
But the thing is
did he hack?
Well, that's an
interesting question.
I mean basically
he expressed curiosity
in a lot of things
and I don't think
he was doing
anything illegal
until he was forced
to become a fugitive
because he was afraid
of being put in prison again
so he had to go on the run.
And when you're on the run
and you're worried
about being caught
I mean I know
I would certainly
want to know
what people are saying
about me
if they're about
to catch me.
But did he
was he tried
on the first conviction
or did he plead guilty?
Do you know
if he plea bargained that
or it was an actual trial
he was convicted
of the first crime?
I believe he pled
back in 1989.
He was on parole.
Yeah.
Oh parole
that means he did
time.
Yeah, no he was
in prison for a year
he was in solitary confinement
for several months
so that kind of thing
shapes who you are.
Non-violent crime.
Non-violent crime.
Solitary confinement.
Okay, well that's true
although you could
breach certain
I guess computer systems
that could be devastating.
What really scares me
is how easy it seems
to breach
very supposedly
secure systems
like military
you know
the Israeli guy
did this supposedly
he got into the
was it the
Air Force computer system?
Yeah, and he got a job
out of it.
What about
cyber terrorists
you know
from some other countries
that are going to
try to sabotage
you know
very you know
sophisticated
defense systems
or that movie
about that kid
who hacks into
the Pentagon computer
that's not so far
fetched is it?
Right, and what's
really scary though
is the fact
that we learn
so little about it
you know
yeah the systems
are wide open
but we're not
doing anything
all we're doing
is punishing
the messengers.
Thanks for calling
we're out of time
very quickly
again if you're
interested in
the project
that we're
embarked in now
which is going
across the country
spreading the word
about the
Mitnick film
and about the
Mitnick case in general
getting people's
reaction to it
making our own
documentary
email us
if you're
on the route
anywhere across
the country
or even locally
and you have
some ideas
for things
you'd like to see
in something
like that
the address
film
film
at 2600.com
if you want
to email us
at off the hook
OTH
at 2600.com
and if you want
to write to us
off the hook
here at WBAI
120 Wall Street
New York
New York
1-0-0-0-0-0-0-5
we'll be back
again in some
form next week
updating people
on the latest
in the case
and the latest
in the script
and where things
stand
in the meantime
if you want
to be part
of the Mitnick
list
again send
email to
Majordomo
M-A-J-O-R-D-O-M-O
at 2600.com
in the body
of the message
simply say
subscribe
Mitnick
M-I-T-N-I-C-K
and you'll be
part of the
discussion
that plans out
what the next
step will be
until next week
Emmanuel Goldstein
have yourselves
good night
the telephone
keeps ringing
so I ripped
it off the wall
I cut myself
while shaving
now I can't
make a call
it couldn't
get much worse
but if they
could they would
Bumbiddley Bump
but the best
expect the worst
I hope
that's understood
Bumbiddley Bump
How to
I'm
I'm
with
what's
Bumpiddley Bump
how to
study
How to
Go
and
how to
go
and
I know
you
have
a
a
go
have
a
go
I
own
I
own
my
life
I
we
own
Thank you.
Hello, this is Donna Niemann of the Development Department at WBAI Radio, speaking to you from our beautiful news studios at 120 Wall Street.
I'd like to remind you that our new general information number is 212-209-2800.
That's 212-209-2800.
For questions regarding your subscription, call 212-209-2845.
And if you have questions about your premium, call 212-209-2848.
Again, the main number here at WBAI is now 212-209-2800.
Thank you for your support, and keep listening to WBAI Radio 99.5 FM in New York.
If you or anyone you know has been unable to finish high school and would still like to pursue your education,
this message is for you.
New York Career Guidance Services offers GED preparation courses to young people ages 17 to 21.
Our program will prepare students to pass the examination for the general equivalency diploma.
Career workshops, resume preparation, and job referral will be provided to students who qualify.
For more information, call us at 212-996-0161.
That's 212-996-0161.