...to report the unanimous support of the unconstitutional suspension of a legally elected parliament
by the morally bankrupt leadership of the Western democracies.
Press 3.
For all of the above, press 4.
You have selected option 4, all of the above.
All of our unprincipled collaborators with Western business interests are busy right now.
Please wait until the regime has had time to consolidate its power and try your call again.
Best, expect, or worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bumbly, BOOM!
The show is off the hook.
I'm Phil and Emanuel?
Are you out there, Emanuel?
Oh, Emanuel?
Well, Emanuel's out there somewhere.
We're going to find him.
He's, uh, certainly somewhere in the country.
I don't think they let him out all the time.
Oh, Emanuel?
Where is Emanuel?
Emanuel?
Hello.
Are you there?
I'm here.
Can you hear me?
I can hear you.
What was that business?
You couldn't hear me at all, huh?
I couldn't hear you for a second, but now you're loud and clear.
You know, somebody must have pressed the wrong button or failed to press the right button
or something like that because it was frustrating because I could hear you talking to me and then
I couldn't be heard.
So now I know what all listeners have to go through.
It wasn't any form of censorship.
No, well, it certainly felt that way.
It felt like I was being impressed.
But I'm over it now and I'm willing to forgive and forget.
Okay.
I'm out here in Los Angeles, which is about as far away as you can get while staying on
the mainland.
And I've been doing some very interesting things over the last couple of weeks.
Apologies for not being on last week.
WBAI had a last-minute emergency fundraiser, which went ahead in our place.
So sorry we couldn't announce that two weeks ago because we didn't know about it.
But we're back on schedule now and things have been moving ahead with the Free Kevin campaign
and our nationwide filmography, I guess you'd call it, where we're going around documenting
various thoughts, feelings, and opinions of people around the nation.
But first, let's talk about some things that are going on back home.
Great.
Well, a lot of people have probably been watching the news or listening to the radio and hearing
a lot of interesting things about some big companies, some small companies.
But here's a pretty good one to start off with.
The Belt Lennox Strike.
Have you heard about that out there?
You know, I saw bits and pieces of it.
It's kind of hard when you're traveling cross-country.
Sometimes you don't know what's going on and, you know, you turn on the radio and you hear
various bits and pieces of, you know, of the news.
So the Belt Lennox Strike, actually, that's not a big major story.
You know, things like embassy bombings and stained dresses make for bigger news headlines.
But the Belt Lennox thing is something that I just happened to see.
You know how they have that little, like, ticker thing on CNN headline news?
I just happened to look at that at the right moment and I saw, Belt Lennox on strike.
Oh, boy, that's just great.
So, no, I didn't know they were on the verge of going on strike.
So it came as a big surprise to me.
Yeah, what had happened was the workers got together, of course.
That's what happens when you're in a union.
And they decided to go on strike.
And it's already over, believe it or not.
It's over today.
One of those express strikes.
Yeah, I mean, just, you know, drive through, please, and, you know, take your benefits and
your money.
But actually, this one, it wasn't over benefits and money.
It was more under, I guess, more of the concept of what the workers wanted.
As far as insurers, the members, that they'll have work, that they're not going to be outsourced.
They're not going to have, you know, the contractors come in.
It's going to continue to be, you know, more jobs for more Americans.
And that was their major, major point.
And I'm certainly glad they did it.
I mean, I think, though, that instead of the worker striking, I think us as customers should
be the next ones to strike.
And see, when you're out here, you're in New York.
But I live in New Jersey.
And unfortunately, I can't get any other local phone coverage other than Belt Atlantic.
So I'd like to go on strike.
Well, how would you engineer such a strike?
Well, you know, I guess I could not pay my phone bill, but they'll turn it off.
But I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't think I can get 73,000 people together like the Belt Atlantic Union did.
No, I don't think that many people would rally around to support your cause unless they
felt they had something to gain themselves.
Well, if Belt Atlantic, I guess, raised the rates to some absorbent fee like it was, you
know, $500 a month just to have local telephone coverage.
I'm sure people would be upset.
But right now, I guess they're doing it so no one's noticing.
I really wish there was other companies that were allowed in my local area that could
compete and have different, you know, pricing schedules and have different sort of service.
Because right now, the only telephone company I can get is Belt Atlantic.
You know, there's no doubt.
It's just Belt Atlantic, and that's it.
Well, you could do what a few people do and just have a cellular phone and use that as
your home phone as well.
I guess.
But, you know, I look on how many people in the state of New Jersey.
This is where it affects me.
And, you know, there's millions of subscribers that have no choice.
I don't know any other industry that can get away with this.
You can ignore that.
I think Daryl is somewhere else.
All right.
I'm in an office right now.
Oh, okay.
In case that hasn't become painfully clear, I'm in an office.
As opposed to last time when I was standing at a pay phone somewhere in Oklahoma.
Actually, I was going to be standing at a pay phone somewhere in Los Angeles, but I wound
up being in someone's office, so I decided to be in a more comfortable setting.
Rather than the 150-degree heat that we have here, you know, and a nice air-conditioned office
is a little better.
Well, I'd rather hear Daryl than the large semis than from last week.
That was not as soothing as the calm voice as the overhead announcer.
Definitely not.
Let's see what else is in the news.
You were at DEF CON, right?
Yes, I certainly was.
You heard the big fuss about back orifice.
Yeah, you know, I was there for the unveiling of back orifice by the cult of the dead cow,
and a couple of days later, I was turning on CNN, and I'm always turning on CNN and just
happening to catch things, and I caught them mentioning that, you know, this program was
released by a group calling itself, and then the anchor person got the weirdest look in
her eyes, the cult of the dead cow.
Well, she's never heard anything quite that sinister in her life, and yeah, it was released
to quite a bit of fanfare.
I believe there was some press in the New York Times about this.
There's been lots of press out here.
I just, I think it's great that these newscasters have to say, cult of the dead cow, back orifice,
you know, all these things.
I think it's a blast to watch, you know, my favorite news anchors just have to, like,
kind of cringe as they say the names of these programs and hackers.
Right, and if they're going to give us the attention, we might as well make them feel
as silly as possible when they do it.
Yeah, I agree.
So that's part of the rationale behind that, but have you had a chance to play with this
wonderful program?
Well, I've seen, you know, I had it running on my home system.
I had a couple computers running, and I like it.
It's pretty interesting.
It's certainly, it could be used as a remote administration tool, so you can, you know,
see what your users are doing or what you want them to do.
Or what you've done if you forget yourself.
Exactly, you know, you can look at the passwords, you can look at anything that's
cached into the system memory.
There's a Unix client that was released, let's see, August 9th.
So now there, if you have the Unix client, you control a Windows machine.
And also on August 10th, which I believe is, today is August 10th?
No, today is August 11th.
Butt plugs.
Back orifice server plug gets new functionality for back orifice brought to you by the people
we've never heard of.
So that was pretty good.
And you want to hear a quick list of features, what you can do with a back orifice?
And if anybody wants to download this and try it out, it's at www.cultdeadcow.com.
So go and check it out.
Right now I think they're up to about 40,000 downloads.
And I'm going to quote from Cult of the Dead Cow's homepage.
Microsoft, of course, had something to say or not say about it.
And their statement was, hold on, let me get the Microsoft statement.
Let's see here.
They have a few statements, so I want to get the good one.
Well, I don't seem to have my Microsoft statement in front of me.
So anyways, oh, here it is.
This is not a tool we should take seriously or our customers should take seriously.
That's from Edmin Month from Microsoft.
So we'll see how accurate that is.
A lot of people have always said that Windows 95 and Windows 98 that just came out has a
lot of security flaws.
So maybe just...
That, I think, is something we shouldn't take seriously.
Okay, some of the features.
System control.
You can create dialogue boxes with the text of your choice, log keystrokes, lockup, or
reboot the machine.
That's without Windows doing it on its own.
The next thing is get detailed system information including current user, CPU type,
Windows version, memory usage, amount to disk, screen saver password, password, cache by user,
file system control, process control, registry control, network control, multimedia control,
packet redirection, application redirection, HTTP server, integrated packet sniffer,
server, and a plug-in interface.
That way you can write your own plug-ins and execute the native code of your choice in
BO's hidden process.
You can basically do anything to anybody running this machine.
The original reaction by Microsoft was that the big deal, you know, it's a security hole
if you install it on your own machine.
But the CDC's point is that because of other security holes that Microsoft has had and ignored,
it's fairly trivial to install this on machines that you do not have access to, that you're
not supposed to have access to.
And then once you do install this program, you have complete run of the machine and you
can make people do all kinds of silly things.
Install dialogue boxes that insult them or, you know, spy on their every keystroke or whatever,
you know, whatever your fancy may be.
And sometimes, I think this is a really important issue, sometimes you have to kind of force things
to get people to do something.
And that's kind of what is going on with the Kevin movement.
You know, sometimes you have to raise your voice and just say, look, enough already.
We're not going to sit back anymore and just let things happen and wait for you guys to
get around to it.
You know, we want you guys, Microsoft, to deal with this now.
We want you guys, the prison authorities, to deal with this Kevin issue now.
You know, sometimes you have to just sort of be a little, you know, persistent and a little
annoying.
Well, it seems like until something directly affects stockholders or, you know, large amounts
of people, people don't want to listen unless it affects them individually.
I did get a chance to install it.
It was pretty easy to install.
All you have to do is install the server and it's done.
It runs in the background.
You can't even see it in the task list if you hit Control-Alt-Delete and it runs every
time you restart it.
So, a lot of neat things you can do with it.
If someone has a QuickCam or some type of camera device attached to their system, you can take
a picture of them, you know, right there.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah, a lot of neat stuff.
So, once again, the address for that is www.cultdeadcal.com and they have the Unix source that just
came out so people could, you know, configure it and change it to their liking.
Yeah, and one of the other things that was mentioned about this, I think, I'm not sure
if it was Microsoft that said this, but basically they just gave an alert to the users saying
that if it's installed in a certain port, you just have to look out for that.
That's the default port.
Yeah.
That's only the port that people use if, you know, they don't change anything.
Yeah, actually, I have the Microsoft Security Bulletin right in front of me.
Okay, what does it say?
It's Microsoft Security Bulletin MS98-010 and it says information on backwarfist program.
It doesn't have anything specific about the port.
It does basically say, though, if the user is stupid enough to install it, it's your
own fault and you're not practicing safe internet policies.
And I don't know how I feel about that.
If you were able to stop, you know, certain types of traffic on your own machine, if you
were able to view your own traffic in Windows 95 and Windows 98, which you currently can't
without getting other software, it wouldn't be a big deal.
You could stop all these types of things right away.
And I think that's the point of this program is, you know, you're running on the internet
with Windows 95 or 98 and there's a lot of things going on without you knowing.
It's been said that, you know, you log on and, you know, Microsoft gets your drive information
and your serial number and they send it off to the, you know, the mothership or whatever.
Well, this certainly makes it sound like it's possible.
You know, if there's this many flaws in the programming as it is where someone can take control
of your machine, why isn't it that someone could just send out all that information as
well, you know, after you install it?
There's a new feature in 98 that automatically upgrades.
You know, when you go to the site, it scans your hard drive and see what you need and
what you have.
So it certainly sounds like their ease of use is, you know, our security issue.
So, but let me read down on here.
Truth about BackOrifice.
BackOrifice is not any exploit, any security issue in Windows, Windows NT, or the Microsoft
BackOffice suite of products.
As far as demonstrating an inherent security vulnerability in the Windows platform, this
is simply not true.
BackOrifice could introduce security vulnerabilities in the system on which it is installed, but,
as with all software, a user must make the choice to install it.
Anytime a user installs a software from an unknown or untrusted source, they risk compromising
their system.
So it says...
But, you know, here's the thing.
You don't always have control of your system.
If you work in an office environment, all the time people are, you know, messing around
with various settings, if you go to a Kinko's or something like that, you know, you can
install anything you want.
You can simply download something from the net and install it.
Imagine being able to look at everybody's password that was typed in in a public terminal
like this.
So it's, you know, it's a very simple thing to say.
It's the user's fault, you know, but this is more than just that because the user very
often changes at certain terminals.
One person is not always in control of the machine, and it's a very definite security hole.
I think it's pretty scary that one small program can control so much.
It's almost like an Achilles heel or something that, you know, one small program, and that's
all you need to do to control someone else's computer.
It's the nature of computing.
Yeah.
Something like that is possible.
Very often the thing that you think is least likely is the thing that's most likely.
And if folks want to check out the Microsoft Bulletin, they can go to http www.microsoft.com
forward slash security, forward slash bulletin, forward slash ms98-01.htm.
What else is in the news this week?
Let's see.
Well, you've been out, I guess you've been out for a while, so I don't know if you knew
about all the mergers that happened, right, with Bell Atlantic and GTE and AT&T and British
Telecom.
You've heard about that.
All the one big company now?
Well, no, no, no, no, it's too, I think that's next month.
It'll all be, it'll just be the company.
Okay, well, who is it this month?
Well, this month and last month, it was Bell Atlantic and GTE, and Bell Atlantic agreed
to buy GTE for $52.8 billion in stock.
So I thought GTE was going to buy Bell Atlantic.
No, no, no, actually, let's see, the net profit for 1997 for Bell Atlantic was 2.5, and
the net profit for 1997 for GTE was 2.8.
The sales for 1997 for GTE was $23.3 billion, and for 1997 it was $30.2.
So I think Bell Atlantic has a little bit more in assets or stock that they were able to bargain
with.
And let's see.
So this has been approved?
Yeah, this is fine.
Atlantic and GTE now merging, that's definite.
Yeah, this is definitely done, and I believe the next one is going to be British Telecom AT&T.
I think they're at least done, or they're talking about it.
Mostly me.
Oh, that's funny.
Yeah, it's getting pretty scary.
I worry about these large companies.
There's going to be three, and that's it.
I'm going to have the phone company, and they're going to do the internet and my cable, I'm sure.
Well, I mean, this deregulation clearly didn't work.
I mean, all the companies that we're supposed to be getting, all the competition, everything
just winding up into big, you know, I guess it's not a monopoly, damn close to a monopoly.
Well, I think it's a monopoly.
You know how I feel about my local phone coverage with Beltlantic.
I think it's a monopoly.
I don't see why anybody else doesn't see the same thing.
Right, but I'm saying it with regards to long distance.
Yeah.
You know, MCI, AT&T, Sprint, whatever, you know, they're the big three.
Yeah.
There should be a lot more competition.
Well, MCI was going to merge with British Telecom, but that didn't work out.
That's why AT&T and British Telecom.
So now it's going international.
It's just not, you know, American companies.
Uh-huh.
It's AT&T, British Telecom, there are going to be one, and GTE and Beltlantic.
And this is just after that big flurry, it seemed, with all the banks.
Like, my bank can consolidate with every other bank, and, you know, I still have to, whatever
it is, I still have to pay ATM fees.
I don't know how that works out.
Yeah, it's crazy.
The consumer always loses in the end.
Yeah, and the savings that these companies gain by merging never seem to be passed along
to the consumer.
Certainly true.
Well, we've been wandering around the country out here.
After we spoke last, we made our way over to Las Vegas.
Unfortunately, we had a bit of a misadventure.
We went to, I didn't know this.
I didn't know there were two Las Vegases.
There's another Las Vegas.
You know, this is true.
There's another Las Vegas in New Mexico, right?
And what happened was, you know, we were on the highway, and we saw a sign that said Las
Vegas.
Granted, it was a small sign, but it did say, it did say Las Vegas, and there was an arrow
pointing.
It didn't say, you know, Las Vegas, New Mexico, Las Vegas, not the Las Vegas you want to go
to.
It said Las Vegas this way.
So we went that way for quite a ways, and we pulled into town, and, you know, it's not
as I remembered it.
It wasn't as big and glittery.
It seemed a lot more laid back.
And I figured we were probably, like, you know, in an adjunct to it, you know, some sort
of a suburb or something like that.
Yeah, the burbs of Vegas.
Yeah, and, you know, I was asking around, so, you know, where's, you know, the strip?
And, you know, I even asked for the Plaza Hotel, which is where DEF CON was being held.
And, you know, just to add insult to injury, they have a Plaza Hotel there.
And so they directed me to the Plaza Hotel, and, of course, when I went there, it turned
out that they had never heard of DEF CON.
And, you know, when you have a couple thousand hackers...
Daryl, please pick up 145.
Daryl, 145.
Okay, yeah.
Where is Daryl here?
Where is Daryl?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
But, yeah, so they didn't know what I was talking about in that hotel.
And we wound up looking pretty foolish, because we were still a long ways away from the other
Las Vegas.
We were a couple of states away, in fact.
Was there gambling going on in this other Las Vegas?
No gambling at all.
You didn't notice no flashing lights?
Gambling forbidden in that part of the state, or that part of the country, actually.
And so we had to continue on.
And eventually we found the real Las Vegas, and it looked all familiar, and, you know, bright
lights, and all that kind of thing.
Yeah.
And DEF CON was great.
It was probably the best DEF CON ever.
I think over 2,000 people attended this one.
Wow.
And well-behaved, you know, attentive, and a lot of good speakers and panelists.
And I have to say, the reaction to the whole Free Kevin movement was really positive.
We were able to raise a lot of money for his defense fund.
Oh, great.
By selling some of the bumper stickers.
And we went to Kevin's grandmother after the conference to present her with the cash we
raised.
And she was, you know, overcome with emotion, to say the least, at seeing all the support
that there was out there.
And it was really great.
It was a very uplifting experience, just seeing a lot of people there, talking to, you know,
a lot of individuals who really are thinking straight and trying to resolve some of these
issues and get the word out.
From there, we went to California, which is where we are now.
Last Friday, we went to the 2600 meeting in San Diego, which is a fairly new meeting.
How was that?
It was great.
It was really amazing.
Considering I was expecting, you know, a handful of people at this thing, because, you know,
it's only been around a couple of months, at least listed a couple of months in our
magazine.
But we had about 2,000 people, and what we wound up doing was just having this impromptu
roundtable discussion about the whole Mitnick, you know, issue.
And people really had some good ideas, good suggestions, devoted a lot of thought to this.
I thought it was really great just to meet a whole lot of new people.
And so what we're doing now is we're heading up to the Bay Area in the next couple of days
and then wandering around some more in various other states, I guess, trying to find out
what's going on.
We tried to visit the folks at New Image, which is a film company that's related somewhat
to Miramax Venture and knows all about the takedown film.
But, boy, they didn't want to see us at all.
They kind of knew exactly who we were, too.
I mean, we just kind of decided to go there in the spur of the moment to say, hey, guys,
what's up with the film?
But they didn't want to talk at all.
They really clammed up big time.
Did you have the camera with you?
We had the camera, yeah.
And I guess, you know, film people know what cameras are.
They know how they work.
So that might have been it.
But, you know, I wasn't expecting this kind of a reaction.
I was expecting them to be a little bit more, you know, friendly about this.
Just to update people, the film takedown is in production right now in Wilmington, North
Carolina.
We're trying to get reports from there as to how it's progressing.
And hopefully we'll be able to speak to some of the people there as well.
It's gone through a lot of changes, a lot of changes over the weeks.
There's even another change now.
Now, get this.
This is kind of crazy.
But the most recent revision, this is not the one where Kevin has, like, a credit card
statement of Tsutomu Shimomura, actually is responsible for a credit card statement for
the $229,000 or something like that.
Yeah, that's a Victoria's Secret, I believe.
Yeah.
Now, they still have that scene in there.
But they added another scene where Shimomura and his girlfriend are going to see a movie.
And he sticks his ATM card into an ATM machine.
And it takes the card and says on the screen, free Kevin.
Ah, well, that's not exactly the right timeline.
I don't know.
No, it's not exactly the right timeline.
It's not exactly the right intent either.
And it's kind of like, you know, they're taking what we've been doing and using it for themselves.
Yeah.
It's so obvious what they're doing here.
And, you know, it's kind of funny.
I laughed when I heard about that.
But, yeah, it really doesn't make Kevin feel any better in prison there.
It's almost like they're taunting him.
It's like a free Kevin.
Oh, yeah.
In a way they are.
Yeah, yeah.
So things are still going on.
I'm hoping people start talking to each other and start, you know, working this out in some kind of a way where people, you know, are benefited somehow.
Because, you know, Kevin is giving them a great story, I think, by having gone through this hell.
Yeah.
And they should consider that.
You know, they should consider that that's what this is really all about.
Now, a couple other things which are very interesting.
A few days ago, I was talking to Kevin as we were driving into Los Angeles.
He had just happened to call.
And he gave us directions, actually, because we were about to go down the wrong highway.
So he said, no, no, keep on this highway, go this way.
So Kevin is there in prison for three and a half years, hasn't been outside at all, but he's directing us as to exactly where to go, what to look out for.
Like, you know, he's reliving it himself.
I mean, it's pretty sad, actually, when you think about it.
And the spookiest part of it all was when he was telling us to go down this highway.
And he said, do you see a white building on your left?
And I said, yeah, I see it right there.
He said, well, that's where I am.
Oh, wow.
So you actually...
We had passed right by the prison where he was, and it was just such a shocking thing to realize that all this time he's been in that building, and we were just able to drive right past it.
The next day, what we did was we went over there with a camera crew and all that to a gas station, which is across the street from the prison.
Now, the funny thing about this is that we weren't the only ones.
Other people come to that very same gas station to look at the prison and to wave at prisoners.
Really?
Who they can't really see, but who say that they're able to see them at a certain time.
And the reason you can't see them is because the windows are really, really narrow, and it's extremely difficult to make out anything.
So people just sit there and wave, and they're content to do that.
So we tried to work out a time with Kevin where we could be there at a certain time, and he'd wave at us.
Of course, you know, it's a prison.
There are lots of little tiny windows in this building.
We have no idea where to really look.
So we're staring at the building like idiots, you know, trying to find this person who we haven't seen in years, so we don't even know what he looks like.
And it's across the street, so even if we did know what he looked like, he wouldn't really show up that well.
And so we're doing this for a long, long time and looking, you know, at all different windows.
We hear this noise, just like this tapping noise.
And all of a sudden we realize, my God, that's Kevin.
He's tapping on a window somewhere.
He's tapping so loudly that we can hear it across the street.
And so once we realized that, we started looking around, and we saw him.
We finally saw, you know, a hand.
Really?
All we saw at first was just a hand wrapping against the window.
And we were able to zoom in on him a little bit to the point where we could actually see part of his face.
And it was really an emotional moment because this was the first real contact he's had with any of us.
I mean, we've talked on the phone a lot of times, but to actually be able to wave.
I mean, it's just a simple thing, a very simple thing, just to wave and, you know, be waved that back.
He can't see anybody, only blood relatives, which he doesn't have a lot of.
No, not blood relatives, direct family members, like mother, father, sister, brother.
That's it.
Grandmother.
And, you know, that amounts to, I think, three people.
Yeah, and a lawyer.
And lawyers, you can see.
And believe me, that's the way he's lived for the last three and a half years.
It's hell.
It really is hell.
So we did that for a while.
I mean, this was such an amazing moment that we stayed there for about a half hour just, you know, waving.
And then the guards across the street obviously were perturbed by this because they saw us with a camera.
Now, they had some sort of a rule with federal prisons.
And I told you about this last time.
And we went to Fiverr's former prison at Schoolkill, Pennsylvania.
And we filmed an awful lot of it.
In fact, we filmed all of it.
And then as we were leaving, we got stopped by a very angry federal cop who wanted us to have done that.
He said that's very illegal.
Although, you know, there was no sign anywhere that said we weren't allowed to take pictures.
They just said that we had to submit the searches, which we very well might have had to have done.
But he let us go.
Now, of course, the same regulation applies here.
And so what that means is you can't take pictures of the prison.
But, you know, I don't understand this.
As a regular person in the free world, there is this big white building in the middle of the city.
All right.
You cannot tell me that it's illegal to take a picture of this building from other parts of the city.
I mean, this building is not a military secret that was planted here.
It's part of the city.
It is part of the city.
And, you know, I'm damned if I'm going to have somebody tell me that we cannot take a picture of it from, you know, across the street, across town, from the air, whatever.
Yeah.
So we stayed there.
We stayed there filming the building, filming Kevin in the window.
We were able to get his hand or his, you know, part of his face.
And obviously the guards were getting upset by this.
So they started motioning to us, saying, hey, you over there, you know, this is from across the street.
And we're like, what?
I said, come over here a second.
I know that you're right.
I said, well, no, wait a minute.
If we go over there, then we're on federal property.
And if we're on federal property, then we have to submit to federal will and have ourselves searched or, you know, be told that we're not allowed to take pictures because we're on federal property, which we didn't want to be in the first place.
So I hope you didn't fall for it.
They didn't taunt you with anything, did they, with candy?
No, they didn't taunt you.
They didn't try to goad us or anything like that.
They just said, hey, come over here.
And we're like, no, you come over here.
They wouldn't do it.
They wouldn't cross over the street because I think they knew they had absolutely no power whatsoever once they crossed the street.
So that went on for a while.
And then they just walked away.
They just, you know, walked into the parking garage.
And we figured that we were going to, you know, get assaulted or something like that.
But that never happened.
But what did happen later on that night, the entire prison got locked down.
And it was because of us being across the street that they, I guess it kind of sent them into some sort of a panic.
Yeah.
Where they just had to, they had to, I guess, you know, get everybody, you know, in some sort of an ultra-secure state.
And Kevin was also warned very specifically, because I guess they saw the connection with Kevin, that, you know, they'd throw him in the hole if he had any more unauthorized contact with the outside world.
And it's just such an amazing thing that somebody would actually think of waving at a window as unauthorized contact with the outside world.
It's just, it makes me laugh, but it makes me cry, too, because it's just so crazy.
I mean, what exactly is it they're afraid of, you know?
Why keep this person so long from the rest of the world with, you know, no real contact whatsoever?
Yeah.
It's really crazy.
So we did that for a while, and it was, I think, gratifying for everybody.
One other bit of news we found out while here, in fact, Kevin was the person who figured it out, is that Agent Steele, who wrote an article in 2600 a couple of issues ago, is back in prison.
Really?
Yeah.
Yeah, and we found this out because Kevin was given a notice that he wasn't allowed to be in a certain part of the prison because of, you know, it was illegal for him to have contact with somebody who was there.
There's only one person where that would be the case, and that was Agent Steele.
So he deduced from that that Agent Steele was back in prison.
Justin Peterson is his real name.
And we called up the prison and verified that he is, in fact, in there, probably for some sort of a probation violation, but we don't know more at this time.
So that's interesting news.
Do you have any background information on Agent Steele for the folks that don't know?
Well, he was probably most famous for winning that Porsche in the radio contest by hacking the phone system.
And he also was most noted in the hacker community as being what's known as a narc, somebody who was actually working for the federal government and trying to entrap hackers.
In fact, Kevin was one of the people that was targeted by Agent Steele at the behest of the federal government.
In fact, interesting thing, this was written into the film.
The later versions of the film have Justin Peterson, Agent Steele, at the very beginning, trying to entrap Kevin Mitnick and his partner, Louis DePain.
And they caught on to him.
Basically, the way the story goes is this.
There's this computer system called SAS, which enables authorities to tap the phone lines at will.
Any phone line you can just tap immediately.
Agent Steele came to these guys and said, I know about SAS.
Now, at this time, Kevin and Louis did not know anything about SAS.
So they said, oh, that's interesting.
And then they went out and found out even more about SAS to the point where they pretty much controlled the system.
This is all from the film, by the way.
And then the next meeting that they had, the next meeting Agent Steele and Kevin and Louis had, they showed him that they knew even more than he did about this SAS system.
And his jaw drops to the floor and he's totally stunned.
And the next scene has him calling up the FBI saying, guys, I told him about SAS.
And I know I wasn't supposed to tell him about SAS, but I did it so I could get him interested.
But I didn't expect him to go this far and actually learn all about the system and know more than I know.
And the FBI guy on the other end of the phone is incredulous, saying, Justin, if you were Kevin and you just learned about SAS, whose phone do you think he would tap first?
And as Justin realizes that everything he's saying is being overheard, the FBI agent's voice on the phone simply says, Justin, you are an idiot.
I mean, that's funny in itself right there.
And I'm not sure how true or how accurate it is, but I just think it's a better spirit to get things started.
So there has been progress made.
There are still some things that are very wrong with the film.
Oh, the other thing, the other big bit of news, the garbage can scene has been removed.
No.
The garbage can scene is out of there.
From what I heard, from what I heard, the latest version has Shimomura chasing Kevin down the alleyway.
Kevin turns around and just confronts him and says, what?
What do you want from me?
Okay.
And then they're close to a bar and Kevin shouts to one of the bouncers, this guy stole my wallet.
And then the bouncer starts attacking Shimomura and Kevin escapes.
Well, okay, at least Kevin...
It's better.
It's slightly better.
It's better, and it's certainly a lot better than having Kevin portrayed as a violent criminal.
So while I don't think we're ever going to get 100% satisfaction, I do think that we need to continue making progress.
Like the credit card thing, for instance, is one thing that simply has to go, because Kevin was never involved in any kind of credit card fraud.
The implication that he was is very offensive.
And there are lots of other things like that.
For instance, the main thing is Kevin hacking Shimomura's machine, which has never been proven to have happened, and which Kevin to this day denies.
Now, if you watch a film, and even at the end of the film, they have this little trailer that says, or credits that say, you know, Kevin maintains his innocence to this day.
You've just seen a film where he wasn't being innocent.
So you're going to say, wow, he's lying.
And that's not really fair, because they're not showing the whole story.
Well, the thing I worry about is, towards the later revisions of the script that were coming out, was this super virus, and this super thing that was going to take down Wall Street and NASA and Air Force One.
Is that still in there?
I think so, and I think that's a Hollywood thing that they're just never going to be able to get out of there.
That kind of thinking is a virus in itself that just sort of permeates into scripts.
I mean, that's been done so many times.
I mean, like you've said, and I think a lot of people have said, this story is so interesting.
It's more of, you know, they took away someone's human rights, you know, someone, an American citizen.
And, you know, it's a shame that that's such a good story, but it's, you know, being changed into this, you know, this war games or this, you know, megavirus, you know, alien something.
You know, I thought that was going to be the next thing.
Well, you know, it's what they think the American public is capable of understanding.
I happen to think the American public is capable of understanding far more and far more subtle things, far more interesting things.
And they have the ability to simply, you know, understand things a lot more than they're given credit for.
Before we take phone calls, I wanted to ask you, because you said you saw Kevin's grandma.
How does she feel about this?
Because obviously there's a, you know, a large age gap.
I was just curious, what's her take on this?
Does she have any idea of, you know, why Kevin's in prison or, you know, does she understand?
Absolutely, absolutely.
In fact, Kevin's grandmother, I think, puts this into words better than anybody that I've met yet and spoken to on the case.
She has a full understanding of exactly what is involved and of the horrible injustice that's happening here.
I mean, she understands the human aspect of this.
And that's something that a lot of people seem to forget.
They say, oh, this guy, you know, he ran from the feds.
He, you know, he broke the law.
He deserves what he got.
They don't take into account all of the things that, you know, go into this whole equation.
For instance, Kevin being locked up in solitary confinement for eight months in 1989.
If that happens to you and you find out that the federal authorities are after you because of a probation violation a couple of days before your probation ends and that they're interested in putting you back in prison,
you're not likely to walk up to them and surrender.
You're likely to run because you don't want to be put in solitary confinement again.
He was put in solitary confinement for no good reason, simply because he was a hacker,
simply because he was somebody who might be able to do something on a touch-tone phone that nobody could understand.
Yeah.
It's insane.
And Kevin's grandmother understands that perfectly.
I just wish people in, you know, higher positions were able to understand this.
You know, she's very upset, obviously.
Oh, yeah, it's her grandson.
You know, she told me a lot about Kevin's background, about, you know, how he grew up and things like that.
And it's, you know, it's sad to see how things are turning out.
And it's sad to see all the ways that Kevin has been wronged over the years.
Yeah.
So, it's, I can't think of someone better able to speak on this subject.
Okay.
That's great.
Another thing we did, we did this yesterday.
We figured it would be kind of a cool thing to hang a Freak Heaven sign, a Freak Heaven banner on the Hollywood sign.
Uh-huh.
But, you know, it's really hard to get to.
It really is.
I imagine they don't want to let a lot of people.
They don't know.
They don't want people there.
They put it up on a mountain to keep people away from it, I guess.
Yeah.
That's the main reason it's up there.
And, you know, it's hard to find the exact mountain it's on.
Because, you know, you see it, then you drive, and there's all these, like, little loopy roads.
I've driven around there before on the same mission, but.
Yeah, it's hard.
It's very difficult.
But we were able to find an entrance to what looked like the Wright Mountain, and we walked around for a long, long time, getting a little bit closer.
But then there'd be these tremendous drops and valleys where we'd have to, you know, go down again.
And, you know, pathways that just seemed to go in the wrong direction.
And so we wound up just climbing through the brush for a long, long time.
You know, real, like, you know, Grizzly Adams kind of stuff here.
Climbing through underbrush.
It wasn't until later I found out that's where the killer bees are.
It's a good thing I found that out afterwards.
Oh, my.
We wound up climbing up, you know, sheer rock and facing death.
But we made it to the letters.
And, you know.
You did.
The second L has cameras on it.
Oh, probably traffic cameras or something.
No, they can't.
Well, not traffic cameras in the middle of the mountain.
No, no.
These are cameras to show people who have made it that far to the letters.
Oh, no.
Yeah.
So we realized that we were kind of on camera at that point.
So we had to move kind of fast.
So we did.
We wanted to climb the letters only because it was fightfully dangerous to do that.
There are ladders, but they're higher up.
And you have to climb, you know, up and do trapeze acts to get to the ladders.
And plus, the night was falling.
So what we did was we just stood in front of some of the letters and held the banner as high as we could.
And from what we heard from the people that we had arranged to take pictures of this, it was pretty good.
Great.
Pretty good.
We got the banner up there.
And the funny thing is, if we had gone a different way on a different road, we wouldn't have had to go through the mountain at all.
We could have just taken a road to the top of the hill and just climbed down a few feet.
Oh, that's no fun, though.
Well, no, this was certainly something I wouldn't trade for anything.
Well, I think it's time to take some phone calls.
It certainly is.
It's 212-209-2900, unless they've moved the studios again.
No, that's it.
Okay, great.
The show is off the hook.
Emanuel Goldstein here in Los Angeles, filled back there in New York.
Oh, this time you're in California, and I'm in New York.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Why is he there now?
I hadn't finished talking yet.
I don't know how exactly he did that.
I don't like when people pop in.
Rebel, I'm going to ask you to not say anything for a second while I finish my paragraph here.
Oh, okay.
Can you do that?
Yeah, okay.
All right.
It's going to be a long paragraph.
Sorry about that.
You see, holding the phone up to the radio is considered talking.
I just had a switch phone.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
All right.
So let's not do that again.
What was I saying?
Oh, yeah.
So I'm here in Los Angeles.
Phil is back in New York.
Now, interesting thing for the people listening in Los Angeles, because the show is brought to
you in real audio, and people are able to hear it around the world, we will be at
what's known as the Man's Chinese Theater.
Tonight.
Now, that's the theater with all the little footsteps, footprints in front of it, where
all the actors stick their feet.
Yeah.
We're going to be there with a camera crew.
We're going to be handing out some flyers about the Midnight case and talking to people.
So if you want to meet up with us, we'll be there starting at 8 p.m.
That's, of course, Pacific time at the Man's Chinese Theater on, I believe, Hollywood Boulevard
in Los Angeles.
Now, on to the phone calls.
And I have a feeling our first phone call is Rebel.
Yeah.
Oh, what a surprise.
I'm New York, and you're in California this time.
Yeah, you know, hopefully we can keep this up for a while, where we're on set the side
of the concert.
The show is broadcast on Real Audio Live tonight, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah, it should be.
I was wondering, how many people at a time can listen to this show?
I'm just curious.
We've had a couple of hundred at one time.
So we probably have one of the biggest radio broadcasts.
They have, like, different servers.
Like, how many people per server can go on?
Generally, it's...
It depends on the size.
I don't have that information.
Portrait would be the person who could answer that question for you.
But he's in Norway right now, so he can't even answer the question.
How do you do it?
I mean, do you hook up a radio to a computer or something?
Well, we have people who code for us, who listen to the station, and then they send
it out to the servers.
Yeah.
That's pretty much the extent of my knowledge of it.
And if you really want more information, send email to OTH at 2600.com.
They could probably tell you more.
And I was also wondering, this new carrier access code.
Hello?
That's what the new carrier access code is called?
Okay.
You still there, Emmanuel?
I'm still here.
Okay.
I guess he hung up.
The phones are a little flaky.
The new carrier access code, hello?
Is that what he said?
Yeah.
Yeah, then he's gone.
That's a mystery.
Okay.
All right.
212-209-2900 is our phone number.
He's taking out a phone call.
Yeah.
I was just wondering about the new carrier access code.
Wait a minute.
Hold on a second.
How did you do that?
You hung up on me.
What's going on here?
First of all, do you have control of all the phone lines in New York?
You hung up on me.
We did not hang up on you.
Yes, we did.
Maybe Valvair hung up on me.
Somebody hung up on me.
How many times have you called into a studio?
I just called.
I was about to ask you a question, then you hung up on me, so I just called back.
And you just happened to get in again.
Right.
We have about 20 lines.
That's impossible.
20 lines, 3 or 10.
Ask your question.
All right.
The new carrier access code, you now have to dial, instead of 1-0 and then 2-8-8 or 2-2-2.
1-0, 1-0, right.
And then 2-8-8.
Why is that?
Because they had to expand the number of carriers in there.
There's all kinds of different companies around the nation.
And the 1-0, 2-8-8, that only allows for 1,000 possibilities because everything is 1-0, x-x-x.
Right.
Now it's 1-0, 1-0, x-x-x.
But the second 1-0 is, actually, I think it's 1-0, 1-x-x-x-x, which opens up to 10,000.
Oh.
It's a big, tremendous waste of time for me, too.
I mean, it's too many numbers to dial.
You know, you have to dial these numbers just to get the carrier you want.
Then you have to dial the phone number on top of that.
It's not exactly consumer-friendly.
Have you played with many phones in California?
I haven't really had a chance to do that.
I've been kind of walking around doing other things.
But I will say this.
I've been using the Sprint PCS and the Omnipoint phone out here.
Omnipoint defaults over to Pacific Bell Mobile.
Do the operators know that it's a cellular phone?
When you need to call the operator and have them dial numbers for you?
I don't do that.
Well, I like to do that today.
I know you like to do that, but I like to do a phone call.
And you know that Pacific Bell puts third-number calls through without asking, local calls?
They put local calls through without asking.
Third-number calls.
In other words, if you dial zero the area-coded number to make an operator-assisted third-number
call, it will put it through without, you know, without...
Without verifying with the person you're defrauding.
Just like AT&T does the same thing.
All right.
We're going to move on here.
All right.
Thanks for calling.
Right.
But to continue what I was saying here,
the Omnipoint phone defaults over to Pacific Bell Mobile.
And Sprint PCS has body service as well.
I've got to tell you, though, I'm really more unhappy out here with Sprint PCS than I was
in New York.
I didn't know that was possible.
I didn't think it was possible either.
And you know, there's a whole entourage of people out here that feel the same way.
Yeah.
There was a big problem with voicemail in that there is no voicemail notification.
There was a problem a few days ago nationwide, according to Sprint, where their entire voicemail
system crashed.
And if you dot star 2 or star 611, which is their new number, you would either get no answer
or a busy signal.
And they basically had no customer service for the last week.
I finally got through to somebody yesterday who was very helpful.
They tried to help me out here and explain why I'm not getting any message notification
when I get voicemail and why if my phone is on and it rings, it doesn't go to voicemail.
It goes to a recording saying the Sprint PCS customer you're trying to reach is not available
and doesn't take a message.
They say it's because my phone simply needs to be reset.
And they advise that I power down my phone and power it back up with one little caveat,
and that is that I have to be in my home region to do this.
So they want me to go back to New York, turn the phone off and on, and then head back out
here to see if it works.
And I'm just trying to book the flights necessary to get this done so that my voicemail will work
out here.
Maybe I could just send the phone over to New York, have somebody turn it off and on,
then send it back out here.
It'd probably be more economical.
You can probably get a FedEx back and forth in two days.
212-209-2900.
Let's take our next listener phone call.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Okay.
That was more interesting than the last one.
I'll say that.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Speak up.
Okay.
All right.
Go ahead.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello.
Hi.
I'm a legitimate caller.
Hi there.
Speak up, please.
Hello.
Is this Emmanuel?
Yes.
Go ahead.
Finally, Emmanuel.
This is Kimberly.
How are you?
How are you doing?
I'm doing pretty well.
I've got a friend of yours on the line.
You have a friend of mine on the line?
Yeah.
Can you hold just a second?
Absolutely.
Hello?
Go ahead.
Kevin?
Just a second.
Okay.
Let's take another phone call.
I don't know what that was all about.
Only one of your friends was trying to get a hold of you.
Okay.
We need to not have that noise.
Okay.
Phil, are you still there?
Yes, I'm still here.
Okay.
Claude, is Claude okay?
He has been incapacitated.
Claude is fine.
Okay.
And the next caller could talk now.
Hello?
Yeah.
Earlier, you were talking about a movie that was under production, and they kept changing
around the scenes and stuff.
What movie was that?
The movie is called Takedown.
I'm sorry if I didn't mention the title.
You probably did, but I came in during the subject discussion.
Yeah.
Takedown is based on the book by Satomo Shimomura and John Markoff, which centers on the capture
of Kevin Mitnick back in 1995.
The story, as told by Shimomura, is extremely one-sided and paints Kevin in a very bad light.
Now, the film is based on the book, except the film made Kevin out to be even worse than
the book, and that's what people started to object to, and that's when this whole movement
really picked up steam.
The film has gotten better.
It's still got a long ways to go, but it'll get there.
When's he going to be out?
At some point, I think.
I'm sorry?
When's he going to be out?
Probably not for another year.
You know, the interesting thing is, I don't know how they do this, but they have the trial
taking place already, and they have Kevin being found guilty.
Now, Kevin hasn't had a trial, as we all know, and it's not scheduled until January
of 1999, and probably it's going to be postponed even more.
Yeah.
So, you know, with all that in mind, how can they make a film and say, yeah, he's found
guilty, and this is a sentence he got?
You know, shouldn't they wait until the trial is over before they finish the movie?
I would venture to guess that's a good thing to do, except that's not how Hollywood works.
You know, Hollywood just wants to make their quick bucks and get out and not really pay
attention to the facts.
Well, in this particular case, there's a human being at stake, and this person has to, you
know, be considered.
And Kevin is somebody who's suffering in jail, does not have the same freedoms as, you know,
people outside who can negotiate movie contracts and things like that.
And this is his story.
This is, you know, his name being put out there and defamed, quite honestly.
I mean, how is anybody going to look at Kevin and say, oh, yeah, you know, I believe what
you say after a film has come out that shows things in completely the opposite way?
It's kind of like there was three endings to Beetlejuice, but they only played one, you
know, like they played all three, and then the test audience chose which one they liked
the best.
Well, I wish they could play, you know, Kevin's fate to a test audience, and we could pick
which one we'd like.
I know which one I'd like.
They should put, like, all endings out on a laser disc or something.
I was referring to real life, but yeah.
Well, no, it really happened.
It's just that they decided, you know, why should a test audience decide what I get to
see?
You know, like, well, the truth about cats and dogs was changed because the audience
didn't like it.
So, like, you know, Janine Garofalo is noticeably thinner at the end because it's a new ending.
Well, okay.
You're raising an important point, but what we're talking about here is, you know, a real
person in prison that we want to get out of prison.
Well, yeah, I mean, Ms. Garofalo is real.
The film is just making things worse because, you know, it's just assuming that he's going
to be found guilty.
It's assuming that he did these things which he's never actually proven he did.
Yeah.
And it's taking advantage of somebody who can't defend himself, and that's why we're doing
it.
Well, I was also looking forward to the animated hate, but, like, they did these little test
random audiences, and they didn't like it, and I've enjoyed Mr. Bag's work for, like,
10 years or more, and now, you know, they're not going to do a show because this audience
didn't like it.
You know, maybe they should have made an audience of people who like Mr. Bag, so, you know, it's
kind of like Michael Jake Fox was going to play Pong, but that didn't happen.
I mean, do you think it was because, you know, somebody decided for me that that wouldn't
be a good movie?
Well, all kinds of decisions.
For goodness sakes, why not Pong?
Yeah, all kinds of decisions are made for you.
I don't really like that.
I'd like to be able to change that.
No, no, that's the reality of marketing.
I mean, it doesn't just hold true for movies.
It's also true for TV shows and for songs on CDs and what bands get contracts and which
ones don't.
You know, and the only way to get around this is to just do it yourself.
You know, just make your own music, put out your own magazines, do your own movies.
You know, that's the only way.
You know, be independent.
Don't be dependent on these people who take advantage.
That's my advice.
All right, well, we've got time for, I think, a couple more calls if we go through them
quickly.
Okay, 212-209-2900.
Let's take our next phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Thanks.
A couple of questions.
Do you know if it's Carol Co. in North Carolina?
Is that the studio?
Are they filming it?
It's in Wilmington, North Carolina.
I don't know the exact name of it.
But get this.
Every time you make a film, you have to create a corporation.
All right, that's just the way films are made.
You create a corporation.
Right.
The corporation lasts as long as production takes place.
Yeah.
The name of this corporation is Hacker Productions, Inc.
Let's make sure that the judge doesn't have a part of it.
Use that for what it's worth, and hopefully we'll find out even more information.
Also, I have this from the European Parliament about surveillance.
I just wanted to mention that what they're saying is that the CCITT 1-series interface
can take phones off the hook and listen to conversations occurring near the phone.
Have you ever heard about that?
Sounds like a lot of paranoia to me, but I'd like to know more.
You know, if you could send us the technical specs, if you find them.
Yeah, I have a ESDR newsletter, number four.
I'll have to, well, what's your fax number back when you're back?
Okay, the fax number over at 2600 is area code 516-474-2677.
You know, I couldn't do that in your house phone number that time.
I don't know if you got it.
What was it?
574?
474-2677, area code 516.
Okay, thank you.
Thanks.
All right.
Want to take another call, Phil?
Yeah, we got time.
Okay.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Hello.
Yes, go ahead.
Is this off the hook?
It's off the hook, and you're on the air.
Go ahead.
Is this the manual?
Yes, it is.
Sorry for all the questions.
This is Forbin.
I just got a couple questions for you about the whole Kevin thing and, you know, what your
thoughts are on that.
Okay, go ahead.
And I was at DEF CON and saw everything, and, you know, probably I'm not the most educated
person on the planet about this, but it just seems to me that the type of person that Kevin
is, you know, I don't understand why this isn't more expected.
I mean, it's obviously intolerable and it's obviously wrong, but the reality of it is that
the government takes liberties with our rights every day.
And, you know, Kevin, if I were to go downstairs right now and walk out of my building and punch
a cop in the face, I know I'm going to get beat.
I just know it's not right.
But Kevin is a repeat offender.
A lot of people feel that if he comes out, he'll do the exact same thing.
Well, now, let's talk about what this exact same thing entails.
In this particular case, we're talking about a minor probation violation, if it even occurred
at all.
What was happening was this Agent Steel character had been sent out to get Kevin to commit a
crime, and this seems to be a pretty much established fact at this point.
Kevin is somebody that the federal government seems to really have an agenda with, where
they want to see him be the poster child to send a message to the rest of the hackers,
regardless of whether or not he's done anything.
And, you know, I have to ask, you say he's a repeat offender.
Okay, what has he done?
What is it exactly that we're talking about?
Well, we agree that Kevin has been in prison before, right?
He's been in prison before, yes.
He was in prison back in 1989 for a period of, I believe it was 10 months, eight of which
were spent in solitary confinement.
And that's got to affect you.
I mean, I hate to interrupt, but it looks like we need to close the show shortly.
Okay, we've got to wind this up in like 30 seconds.
So if you have any closing thoughts, make it quick.
Yeah, basically, with all the things that are going on with, you know, things like the
Hong Kong wands and the Chinese human rights issues and the nuclear stuff that, you know,
the hackers are working on, everyone's really going for a purpose, which is a new thing in
hacking.
And it just seems like you, who, you know, 2600, who commands a lot of voice in the hacker
community, is trying so hard on this cause that sort of seems insignificant next to all
the other things that are happening.
Well, let me ask you something.
What is more significant than an individual struggle against something far more powerful
than any of us can ever, ever imagine?
This is somebody who's suffering, someone who's being, you know, literally tortured.
Because if he puts somebody in jail three and a half years, I'm sorry, that's torture.
And there's just no good reason for it.
This is not a person who belongs in jail.
So even if he's guilty of everything people are accusing him of, even if he's our most
repeat offender that ever existed, I'm sorry, I just don't see it.
And that's something, you know, it's cruelty and we have to speak out against it.
I'd like to talk about this a lot more.
I wish you were the first caller, but I'm afraid we're out of time.
All right.
Phil, thanks very much for being there to keep things under control.
And thanks to Claude for also keeping things going smoothly.
All right.
We'll be talking to you next week, right?
We'll be, I don't know where I'm going to be next week, but it should be interesting.
And until then, well, you can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
Until then, it's Emmanuel from Los Angeles signing off.
Look for us at the Chinese Theater tonight at 8 o'clock.
Good luck.
Good night.
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