Off The Hook - 1998-12-15

[00:02.210 --> 00:04.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: ...wants Americans to see him as a less threatening figure.
[00:04.810 --> 00:07.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, Howard Kurtz, we are out of time, and I just can't thank you enough.
[00:07.950 --> 00:14.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: The book, WBAI listeners and KPFK and Los Angeles listeners, is Spin Cycle by Howard Kurtz.
[00:14.530 --> 00:17.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's out in paperback, and it is a must-read.
[00:17.830 --> 00:19.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: You've just got to get this book.
[00:19.710 --> 00:21.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Howard, again, thank you very much.
[00:21.410 --> 00:22.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Mike, I've enjoyed it.
[00:22.290 --> 00:22.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you.
[00:24.210 --> 00:27.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Ladies and gentlemen, once again, we're at the end of the show.
[00:27.450 --> 00:33.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: I am so happy to, well, I'm just so happy to be here and able to do this and perform.
[00:33.810 --> 00:35.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: It feels like a pretty good service.
[00:36.030 --> 00:40.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Next week is going to be a remarkable show, so it's not one you're going to want to miss.
[00:42.150 --> 00:44.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, having said that, I love you guys.
[00:44.950 --> 00:49.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is
[00:56.100 --> 00:59.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: almost too good to be true, but here it is.
[00:59.240 --> 01:17.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: On Thursday, December 17th, from 6 to 8.30 p.m., three of the world's leading historians, Dr. Jan Carew, Dr. Ivan Van Sertema, and our very own William Lauren Katz will all meet right here at WBAI's new studios at 120 Wall Street for a holiday book party.
[01:17.420 --> 01:22.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: We urge you to join us to celebrate these great historians and humanitarians.
[01:22.620 --> 01:28.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Celebrate WBAI and our effort to promote a people's history and global humanitarianism.
[01:28.660 --> 01:30.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Books will be available.
[01:30.340 --> 01:31.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Refreshments will be on hand.
[01:32.040 --> 01:37.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: And whenever WBAI people get together, we always have a great time.
[01:37.500 --> 01:40.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're asking a $20 donation to benefit WBAI.
[01:41.100 --> 01:44.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Please call Karen for reservations and more information.
[01:44.740 --> 01:48.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: The number is 212-209-2828.
[01:49.320 --> 01:53.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's area code 212-209-2828.
[01:54.000 --> 01:56.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: See you at the book party.
[02:00.210 --> 02:03.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it's time for the off-the-hook party now.
[02:03.530 --> 02:06.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's 8 o'clock, 8.01 actually, on a Tuesday night.
[02:07.710 --> 02:08.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Time for off-the-hook.
[02:12.540 --> 02:34.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough It couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would Bum-dilly-bum But I best expect the worst I hope that's understood Bum-dilly-bum
[03:27.120 --> 03:38.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: And a very good evening to one and all The program is off-the-hook And we have some late-breaking news We haven't been on for a couple of weeks We were preempted last week because of that last-minute three-hour special on slavery.
[03:39.440 --> 03:43.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: But this week, we have an action-packed hour for you.
[03:44.020 --> 03:45.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, stay tuned.
[03:48.300 --> 03:50.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why do you try to cheat?
[03:51.180 --> 03:53.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: And trap the people under your feet?
[03:53.580 --> 03:56.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: Don't you know it is wrong to cheat a crying man?
[03:56.820 --> 04:00.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Don't you know it is wrong to cheat a crying man?
[04:00.320 --> 04:01.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: But you better stop.
[04:02.980 --> 04:05.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: It is the wrong ambivalent.
[04:12.380 --> 04:16.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: Don't you know it is wrong to cheat a crying man?
[04:16.480 --> 04:19.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Don't you know it is wrong to cheat a crying man?
[04:20.180 --> 04:21.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: You better stop.
[04:22.720 --> 04:24.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: It is the wrong ambivalent.
[04:35.340 --> 04:50.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: And speaking of lying, stealing, cheating, deceiving, brings up the name of Agent Steele, who is somebody that has been on the run in the hacker world from the authorities for a number of weeks.
[04:50.740 --> 04:56.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: And Kevin Paulson joins us on the line with the latest update on the story of the fugitive hacker.
[04:57.000 --> 04:57.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Kevin, you're there.
[04:57.820 --> 04:58.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: How are you doing?
[04:58.480 --> 04:58.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good.
[04:58.700 --> 04:59.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: How about you?
[04:59.180 --> 04:59.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Pretty good.
[04:59.720 --> 05:04.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, you said a couple of weeks ago on this show that you had no doubt he would be caught pretty soon.
[05:04.400 --> 05:05.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you were right.
[05:05.040 --> 05:05.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: He got caught.
[05:05.660 --> 05:07.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I seem to recall it.
[05:07.180 --> 05:08.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: You said there was some sort of pool going.
[05:08.540 --> 05:10.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I guess I'm too late to get in on that.
[05:10.740 --> 05:11.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, yeah.
[05:11.820 --> 05:12.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's just as well.
[05:12.600 --> 05:13.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: I lost big time.
[05:13.640 --> 05:15.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: I thought he'd make it until the first of the year.
[05:15.320 --> 05:17.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: But this goes to show.
[05:17.560 --> 05:18.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bad, bad.
[05:18.220 --> 05:20.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, what foreign country was he finally found in?
[05:21.180 --> 05:22.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: Studio City, California.
[05:22.880 --> 05:24.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's a foreign country to many of us.
[05:24.700 --> 05:27.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I guess not as foreign as we had thought.
[05:27.660 --> 05:28.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, they do.
[05:28.100 --> 05:30.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: They speak English and they drive on the right side of the road.
[05:30.680 --> 05:40.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was captured last Friday night, shortly before 6 p.m., by United States Marshals, who had been tipped off to his whereabouts by an associate of his on the Sunset Strip.
[05:42.580 --> 05:43.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Interesting.
[05:43.280 --> 05:49.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, I understand that the Marshals, who eventually wound up capturing him, had actually been in touch with him via email.
[05:49.560 --> 05:49.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is that true?
[05:50.320 --> 05:53.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, and that's what led to his swift capture.
[05:54.220 --> 05:59.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Only a supervised release violator doesn't get a real high priority among the Marshals.
[05:59.400 --> 06:03.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: They tend to go after the violent criminals.
[06:04.020 --> 06:06.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: But in his case, they knew about his website.
[06:06.780 --> 06:07.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: They'd been checking it out.
[06:08.320 --> 06:12.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was making public statements there to the effect that he was overseas.
[06:13.560 --> 06:20.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Elsewhere, there were public statements where he had said that he was working for the CIA and that he didn't really care if he got caught or not.
[06:22.500 --> 06:25.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he had a lot of pictures of himself up on his website.
[06:25.600 --> 06:32.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: So they just sort of found that arrogant, I think, and made it more of a personal mission than anything else to bring him down.
[06:33.040 --> 06:45.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: So shortly before, in fact, just a couple days before his capture, one of the Marshals said that he had sent Peterson an email saying, we're coming and hell's coming with us.
[06:46.360 --> 06:47.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hell's coming with us.
[06:47.580 --> 06:47.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[06:48.780 --> 06:52.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Peterson, according to the Marshals, Peterson had received the email and mentioned it to them.
[06:52.800 --> 06:54.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: He just didn't know that it was from the Marshals.
[06:55.460 --> 06:56.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.
[06:56.320 --> 07:09.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: So now, for those people who don't know, Justin Peterson was a federal informant who helped to get Kevin Mitnick captured or actually to start the whole chain of events that wound up getting him captured.
[07:09.880 --> 07:17.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: In addition, he was involved with people like you as well, Kevin and Ron Austin and all kinds of other people, it seems.
[07:18.100 --> 07:21.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I knew him many, many years ago, back in the early 90s.
[07:21.760 --> 07:24.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: But apparently, it wasn't anybody in the hacker world who helped turn him in.
[07:25.000 --> 07:26.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was somebody in the club scene.
[07:26.780 --> 07:29.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, that's where he has the highest profile.
[07:29.320 --> 07:30.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's where people know him the best.
[07:31.000 --> 07:32.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he's been there forever.
[07:32.560 --> 07:33.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: He has lots of enemies there.
[07:34.040 --> 07:36.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he didn't exactly keep a low profile while he was on the run.
[07:37.480 --> 07:40.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think the number of people actually knew where he was was probably pretty substantial.
[07:40.880 --> 07:43.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it was inevitable that one of them would drop a dime on him.
[07:43.360 --> 07:44.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's sort of ironic.
[07:44.960 --> 07:49.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, now that he has been captured, do you think that's going to affect the Mittnick case at all?
[07:49.340 --> 07:50.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think so.
[07:50.240 --> 07:55.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Like I said the last time I was on your show, neither side is likely to use Peterson as a witness.
[07:57.460 --> 08:05.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: It sort of sums up his character that he was telling people he was out of the country and then was captured about a mile from Hollywood.
[08:06.580 --> 08:08.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: He doesn't have a lot of credibility.
[08:08.460 --> 08:15.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, in a piece of mail that we got a little bit before airtime, he said that he had just gotten back from being out of the country when he was captured.
[08:15.460 --> 08:16.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, no doubt.
[08:17.480 --> 08:22.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he probably had just gotten back from his covert operations with the CIA as well.
[08:22.340 --> 08:22.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[08:22.960 --> 08:32.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, even the maximum penalty for what he has done now for eluding capture and going on the run, it's something...
[08:32.260 --> 08:33.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: a few months, right?
[08:33.620 --> 08:48.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, he's looking at five to 11 months under the guidelines, after which the judge might have the option of putting him back on supervised release, which means he'll be a probation officer but will be once again insisting that he get a job and he may very well see this happen again.
[08:49.080 --> 08:49.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[08:50.220 --> 08:56.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's interesting that the contrast, Kevin Mitnick going on the run, no bail, no trial for four years.
[08:58.100 --> 09:03.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: This guy goes on the run after committing real crime, stealing real money, doing things like that, and we're talking only a few months.
[09:04.440 --> 09:06.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Seems kind of disproportionate, doesn't it?
[09:06.560 --> 09:08.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, there are two factors.
[09:08.660 --> 09:11.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, one, Peterson obviously was a government informant at one time.
[09:11.660 --> 09:19.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: The people that are dealing with him now that are prosecuting him now once sat around the table joking with him back when he was helping them with Mitnick and other cases.
[09:20.280 --> 09:24.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then the other factor is there's no evidence at this point that he was committing any crimes while he was on the run.
[09:25.520 --> 09:30.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: The only thing that he's being charged with is violating the supervised release by walking away from the halfway house.
[09:31.160 --> 09:31.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[09:33.840 --> 09:35.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's been quite a story.
[09:35.580 --> 09:37.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: How did you get word of it?
[09:37.520 --> 09:40.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I believe you're the only person that's actually reported this on the net so far.
[09:41.420 --> 09:49.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I've been covering the Peterson case since he first went to court several months ago for refusing to get a job.
[09:50.800 --> 09:54.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I've been following it closely and I've cultivated some sources.
[09:55.240 --> 09:55.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[09:56.860 --> 09:57.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Interesting.
[09:57.700 --> 09:58.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, there have been other...
[09:58.720 --> 10:06.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: I say you're the only person who's written about it because so far you're the only person who's actually written a story concerning his capture.
[10:06.860 --> 10:14.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: However, there was a story very recently in the Washington Post having to do with Agent Steele, Justin Peterson.
[10:15.280 --> 10:25.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I'd just like to read a little bit of that and also bring in one of our web people who got sort of involved in this story, Micah, out in California.
[10:26.740 --> 10:30.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let me read from this story written by Rene Sanchez.
[10:30.400 --> 10:32.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Agent Steele is on the run again.
[10:32.360 --> 10:34.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: His real name is Justin Peterson.
[10:34.600 --> 10:41.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: And back when he was at the top of his trade, he did what stars here do, prowl the bars of Sunset Strip, live large, always get the girl.
[10:41.880 --> 10:46.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: It hardly mattered that he was a thief, a computer hacker who tapped his keyboard until it led him to other people's riches.
[10:47.080 --> 10:49.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course, that's all what computer hackers do.
[10:49.540 --> 10:57.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: In Hollywood, charm and a rebel's pose go a long way and Peterson, whose codename in cyberspace is Agent Steele, he had both.
[10:57.820 --> 11:03.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: But now, a few years after being jailed for an array of clever computer crimes, Peterson, 38 years old, is a fugitive.
[11:03.180 --> 11:09.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: For the second time, he is fleeing the authorities whom he once helped to catch some of the nation's other notorious computer hackers.
[11:10.020 --> 11:18.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Peterson bolted from a halfway house here weeks ago while serving the final part of a sentence for schemes that included electronically swiping $150,000 from a bank.
[11:18.240 --> 11:24.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: He also rigged local radio call-in contests through his computer to guarantee that his phone number would be the winner.
[11:24.380 --> 11:27.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: So far, Kevin, is everything pretty much accurate here?
[11:28.020 --> 11:29.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you get to an accurate part, I'll let you know.
[11:30.220 --> 11:32.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: How about the part about swiping $150,000 from a bank?
[11:32.900 --> 11:33.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Did that actually happen?
[11:33.840 --> 11:34.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: He tried.
[11:34.540 --> 11:36.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: He did not succeed at that.
[11:36.440 --> 11:41.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was captured the last time he was a fugitive while that plan was still in progress.
[11:42.960 --> 11:48.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I did appreciate the way the Washington Post gave Peterson credit for my crime.
[11:49.440 --> 11:52.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, yes, giving credit where it's due is not really one of their attributes.
[11:53.340 --> 11:57.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: According to Jay Lickman, Peterson's former attorney, he is an unusual person.
[11:57.900 --> 11:59.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: He has talents.
[12:00.720 --> 12:01.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, that's how he...
[12:01.800 --> 12:03.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: I always put an uh in a sentence when you're a lawyer.
[12:03.880 --> 12:04.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: That really makes you look good.
[12:05.320 --> 12:06.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: The hunt for Peterson...
[12:06.520 --> 12:07.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Keep in mind, this was written before he was captured.
[12:08.160 --> 12:17.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: The hunt for Peterson is part of a larger battle that California law enforcement officials are waging against computer hackers who seem as attracted to the West as the outlaws of old.
[12:17.300 --> 12:21.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know where they're going with that, but computer hackers sort of migrating to the West like cowboys.
[12:21.980 --> 12:24.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Computer use is higher than in many other states.
[12:24.660 --> 12:26.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Could have something to do with Silicon Valley.
[12:26.400 --> 12:26.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[12:27.240 --> 12:28.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's my interpretation.
[12:28.960 --> 12:31.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: And by all accounts, hacking is on the rise.
[12:31.800 --> 12:36.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're dealing with more pranks and more sophisticated schemes, said Chris Painter, an assistant U.S.
[12:36.320 --> 12:38.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: attorney in Los Angeles who specializes in computer crimes.
[12:39.380 --> 12:40.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, here goes the interesting part.
[12:41.080 --> 12:43.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: And this is what we're going to be focusing on.
[12:43.440 --> 12:55.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Federal agents in Los Angeles recently busted a ring of hackers who were phone-freaking, which is, of course, slang for sabotaging a person's phone service with extreme measures such as forwarding their calls somewhere so their line never rings.
[12:55.500 --> 12:57.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's all that phone-freakers do.
[12:57.560 --> 12:58.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: No doubt about that, yes.
[12:59.480 --> 13:00.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, the interesting part.
[13:00.760 --> 13:11.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Next spring, Kevin Mitnick, the only hacker ever to make the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list, faces trial in California on charges that include stealing thousands of credit card numbers.
[13:13.060 --> 13:15.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, with that, I'd like to bring in Micah from California.
[13:15.500 --> 13:16.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Micah, are you with us?
[13:16.360 --> 13:17.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, hello, Emmanuel.
[13:17.380 --> 13:17.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: How are you doing?
[13:17.800 --> 13:21.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, you actually talked to this reporter about this story.
[13:21.680 --> 13:36.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: I know a lot of us read that one sentence and were incensed that, first of all, just to set the record straight, everyone has seen the indictment, the indictment's on the website, there was nothing in there mentioning stealing credit card numbers, and here it is in the Washington Post where they actually say this.
[13:36.540 --> 13:38.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: How in the world, you talked to the reporter.
[13:38.500 --> 13:38.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[13:38.760 --> 13:42.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: How does a reporter for the Washington Post manage to get something so wrong?
[13:42.960 --> 13:57.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, he told me for starters that he used an old Washington Post article from February 1995 as his primary reference, and then he also spoke to the federal prosecutor's office, who was, of course, painter.
[13:58.060 --> 14:04.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: February 1995, that was when Mitnick was captured, and all of the news stories came from a single source, John Markoff of the New York Times.
[14:04.880 --> 14:18.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: John Markoff of the New York Times was the person who originally made the allegation that he had stolen all these credit card numbers because he had a file in his Netcom account that was a copy of all these credit card numbers, which a lot of people had.
[14:18.760 --> 14:22.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, from that, they just assume that that's part of the indictment without checking?
[14:23.200 --> 14:40.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's even better than that because later in the conversation, I had him actually read me part of that article that he was referring to, and he actually realized that that article didn't support what he said about being charged with credit card numbers than it mentioned that he was accused of having the list.
[14:43.640 --> 14:49.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: I really tried to impress upon him some of the importance of making certain distinctions.
[14:51.000 --> 15:00.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: It seems almost trivial, probably, to him, the difference between saying that he's charged with stealing credit card numbers versus his actual indictment.
[15:04.040 --> 15:14.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: and he really thought he was doing Mitnick a favor by saying thousands of credit card numbers instead of the number of 20,000, which is what the prosecution had told him.
[15:14.920 --> 15:29.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: And he told me that he has no bias against Kevin and didn't have an agenda, but I think he realized the errors of his ways when I pointed out that Painter's Office definitely has an agenda and that by taking them at their word, he helped facilitate it.
[15:29.660 --> 15:33.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Kevin Poulsen, any surprise on how the Washington Post can do something like this?
[15:33.860 --> 15:36.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, Emmanuel, I will not be a party to any media bashing.
[15:39.660 --> 15:40.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is...
[15:40.540 --> 15:43.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unfortunately, this is the way it works a lot of the time.
[15:43.240 --> 15:49.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: People in the press will write stories based in large part on stories that were written before.
[15:49.860 --> 15:51.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: And sometimes they will even add to them.
[15:52.520 --> 15:58.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: And so it becomes like a twisted game of telephone where the message changes with each retelling.
[16:00.140 --> 16:07.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: I believe AP was the first to report that Mitnick had been on the FBI's 10 most wanted list, which is certainly not true.
[16:09.720 --> 16:18.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: I guess it surprises me that this came from the Washington Post, but then again, you know, this sort of thing can happen anywhere.
[16:18.520 --> 16:19.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know...
[16:19.040 --> 16:21.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'll also point out that they misspelled my name.
[16:21.960 --> 16:22.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Did they?
[16:22.700 --> 16:23.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[16:23.560 --> 16:23.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.
[16:24.140 --> 16:27.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I think they misspelled Peterson's name too, which happens quite a bit.
[16:27.900 --> 16:38.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, you know, I was surprised back in 95 when I saw the Times doing the things they were doing with the Mitnick case and, you know, leaving out the word allegedly in many places, not revealing the relationship of John Markoff to all of this.
[16:39.140 --> 16:45.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was dismaying to see the same basic misrepresentation of facts taking place in the Washington Post.
[16:45.580 --> 16:48.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, but you as a reporter, you do this kind of thing.
[16:48.580 --> 16:50.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: You research a story.
[16:50.420 --> 16:53.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Aren't there certain ways of preventing things like this from happening?
[16:53.940 --> 16:57.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: A lot of publications have strict rules on what you can use as a primary source.
[16:58.960 --> 17:04.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wired Magazine, for example, will not allow you to use previous media reports as a source.
[17:05.120 --> 17:09.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: You have to go directly to somebody that you can quote about in order to use it.
[17:10.880 --> 17:13.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if the Washington Post has similar guidelines.
[17:13.940 --> 17:14.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Apparently, they don't.
[17:15.700 --> 17:18.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: They have to write a lot of stories every day.
[17:18.920 --> 17:20.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe they just don't have the time.
[17:20.640 --> 17:41.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: For my own part, whether I'm writing for a magazine or ZDTV at www.cybercrime.com, I always try to go to a legal document or somebody involved in whatever it is I'm reporting on just to avoid that whole thing and break the chain of misinformation.
[17:42.860 --> 17:45.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Maybe you could clear something up for us once and for all.
[17:45.360 --> 17:48.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Was Kevin Mitnick on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list?
[17:49.160 --> 17:51.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, Kevin Mitnick was never on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list.
[17:51.780 --> 17:54.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: So how come that is the one thing I see reported more than anything?
[17:55.580 --> 17:59.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: That he was the only hacker ever to make the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list?
[17:59.560 --> 18:00.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: I see that every place.
[18:00.900 --> 18:12.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think you and I both know and as John Littman reported, the FBI wasn't even particularly interested in Mitnick for a very long time while he was supposedly a fugitive.
[18:12.760 --> 18:14.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: He was certainly not on the Most Wanted list.
[18:14.760 --> 18:26.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: As far as I know, the only way that rumor came about is a misreading of one of the New York Times early headlines about Mitnick where they called him a Most Wanted Computer Thief.
[18:27.340 --> 18:30.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: That was probably true among computer thieves.
[18:30.480 --> 18:38.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Whatever that means, Mitnick probably was one of the Most Wanted just because there were so few of them.
[18:40.600 --> 18:40.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Interesting.
[18:41.240 --> 18:43.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Carrie is joining us now from North Carolina.
[18:44.380 --> 18:46.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: She's also one of our webmasters.
[18:46.660 --> 18:57.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: And over the last couple of weeks, we haven't been on the air for a couple of weeks so there's a bit of catching up to do, but at the last court appearance, there was a bit of an outburst by the judge.
[18:57.960 --> 19:00.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: And Carrie, perhaps you could tell us what that entailed.
[19:01.620 --> 19:09.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Basically, she said, I don't know what Mr. Mitnick's friends have been up to, but someone has requested my financial disclosure report.
[19:10.240 --> 19:12.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Someone from North Carolina, meaning me.
[19:12.960 --> 19:23.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: And she stated my name and put the government on notice that if anything happened, basically, I think she left it open but implied that I would be responsible.
[19:23.860 --> 19:30.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, first of all, just for the sake of the listeners, Carrie, what possessed you to go out there and actually request this information?
[19:30.780 --> 19:31.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Isn't this top secret stuff?
[19:32.520 --> 19:33.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: No.
[19:33.220 --> 19:34.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's perfectly harmless stuff.
[19:34.760 --> 19:36.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's actually public information.
[19:36.620 --> 19:39.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's no credit reports or anything like that.
[19:40.220 --> 19:43.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just basically a list of the companies that she owns stock in.
[19:44.680 --> 19:53.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: And there's some very vague estimations of the amounts of investments, I guess, but it's in huge ranges, like less than $15,000.
[19:55.180 --> 20:01.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: So really, I don't think there's anything in there that could be used for harassment, but she perceived it that way.
[20:02.100 --> 20:04.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: So she gets notified whenever somebody does this?
[20:05.240 --> 20:06.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: All the judges do, yeah.
[20:06.780 --> 20:11.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: But it sounded like she got notified in court at that moment, the way that she reacted.
[20:12.560 --> 20:14.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure whether she did or not.
[20:14.280 --> 20:24.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: She should have been notified before that, but it's possible the government could have been copied on it when my request was sent in, and that way the prosecution could have had a copy of it.
[20:25.360 --> 20:29.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: So now, are you expecting some kind of investigation or action?
[20:29.280 --> 20:31.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Are you living in fear now?
[20:32.480 --> 20:34.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I'm hoping nothing will come of it.
[20:36.120 --> 20:39.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: I suppose it could if one of the companies goes bankrupt or something.
[20:40.120 --> 20:41.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe they'll blame me.
[20:43.220 --> 20:43.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.
[20:43.980 --> 20:51.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: It just seems, I don't know, maybe this is a typical reaction from a judge, but I don't know, to me it just seemed a little bit strong.
[20:51.460 --> 20:55.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: And also, why would she assume that Kevin Mitnick even knew anything about it?
[20:56.120 --> 20:56.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Exactly.
[20:57.180 --> 21:17.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: I got an email from a lawyer, actually, and he said, I'm trying to find what he said, it seems unreasonable to rant from the bench over someone's simple execution of the public's right to know or to demonstrate a presumption of malicious intent against an unknown person.
[21:17.080 --> 21:23.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: The paranoia might suggest that the judge's comments stem from the nature of the particular case before her.
[21:24.700 --> 21:25.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think that's true.
[21:25.960 --> 21:28.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think she's paranoid of what Kevin's friends might do.
[21:29.800 --> 21:34.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: I guess such paranoia of the hacker community is something that we shouldn't really be surprised of.
[21:35.160 --> 21:40.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: After all, we can do anything and we can take down any federal organization we want.
[21:40.200 --> 21:45.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: We've got that hacker National Congress out there somewhere lobbying for us and all kinds of things like that.
[21:45.760 --> 21:49.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there are the phone freaks who routinely forward people phones so that they miss all their calls.
[21:49.700 --> 21:51.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, that's all they do, right?
[21:51.800 --> 21:52.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Happens all the time.
[21:52.900 --> 21:54.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: I wasn't at that court hearing myself.
[21:56.080 --> 21:57.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Carrie, were you there?
[21:57.700 --> 21:58.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: No.
[21:59.940 --> 22:01.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not sure.
[22:01.420 --> 22:09.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: I heard from people that were there that it wasn't exactly a rant, that it was more like she just wanted the prosecution to be aware of it in case anything happened in the future.
[22:10.060 --> 22:16.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: But even that much is probably a concern that a judge wouldn't have had if it hadn't been in a hacker case.
[22:17.000 --> 22:21.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I had someone who was in the courtroom described it to me.
[22:21.320 --> 22:28.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it sounded as though she was not overtly maybe angry or losing her temper, but she was upset about it.
[22:31.540 --> 22:39.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it is kind of worrisome and I'm hoping it doesn't hurt Kevin in any way that people are making these requests.
[22:39.020 --> 22:41.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, it's a perfectly legal, legitimate thing to do.
[22:42.320 --> 22:43.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I just...
[22:43.340 --> 22:52.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: I get the sense that she really is fearing anything that can happen as a result of technology implications and things like that.
[22:53.080 --> 22:56.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, that's something we should keep an eye on.
[22:56.100 --> 23:02.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, also, we should report a very important fact that came out of that hearing, or the one the next day, actually.
[23:02.960 --> 23:08.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: The trial, which was originally scheduled for January 19th, has been postponed, what is it, until April 20th?
[23:09.360 --> 23:10.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Does anybody know for sure?
[23:10.700 --> 23:11.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[23:11.200 --> 23:11.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: April 20th, okay.
[23:12.660 --> 23:17.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Kevin, I'd like to ask you, what do you think the implications of postponing the trial for that long a period of time are?
[23:19.480 --> 23:21.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if really there are any implications.
[23:21.920 --> 23:23.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I think this is something we all saw coming.
[23:26.360 --> 23:30.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Both sides have been totally focused on plea negotiations.
[23:32.540 --> 23:35.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the government had been late turning over discovery.
[23:35.960 --> 23:42.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: And apparently, according to them, the defense hadn't been pushing them for the discovery because they both thought that they had a plea agreement that was going to come through.
[23:44.880 --> 23:51.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: If Randolph wasn't ready for trial, based on all of that, then the judge almost had no choice but to grant him a continuance.
[23:53.200 --> 24:00.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, what's weird about this, this is the part I don't really get, is that Louis Dupain is still scheduled to go on trial, I believe, in January.
[24:01.280 --> 24:05.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, he is mostly accused of aiding and abetting Kevin Mitnick.
[24:05.480 --> 24:11.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: But if Kevin Mitnick has not yet been tried, how can he be tried for aiding and abetting someone who is still presumed innocent?
[24:12.800 --> 24:13.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: You see?
[24:13.460 --> 24:16.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's kind of a contradiction there.
[24:18.460 --> 24:25.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think he'll be, he's charged with, I don't think he's actually charged with aiding and abetting a fugitive.
[24:26.000 --> 24:27.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: I guess I'd have to check the indictment.
[24:27.700 --> 24:33.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know he's charged with being a co-conspirator in at least one of the crimes that Mitnick is charged with.
[24:33.860 --> 24:43.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: They can make a case for that separately from the Mitnick trial and might actually help the defense in Mitnick's case because they get a preview of the government's prosecution strategy.
[24:44.820 --> 24:47.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Plus they have to prove that it was a crime in the first place.
[24:47.460 --> 24:47.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, yes.
[24:49.400 --> 24:49.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Interesting.
[24:50.600 --> 24:53.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, Kevin, I know you have a deadline, you have things to do.
[24:53.500 --> 24:54.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Are you able to stick around or do you need to go?
[24:55.180 --> 24:56.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm going to take off.
[24:56.220 --> 24:56.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[24:56.960 --> 24:58.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: But thank you for having me.
[24:58.140 --> 25:04.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks for joining us and for enlightening us on this and I guess we can look forward to more stories coming from cybercrime.
[25:04.400 --> 25:04.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Absolutely.
[25:05.020 --> 25:07.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that website, www.cybercrime.com, right?
[25:07.360 --> 25:07.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's the one.
[25:08.180 --> 25:08.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[25:08.800 --> 25:09.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Take care, all.
[25:09.600 --> 25:10.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks again.
[25:10.920 --> 25:12.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's Kevin Paulson.
[25:12.380 --> 25:13.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: He's left us now.
[25:13.660 --> 25:24.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're still on the phone, though, with Micah from California and Kerry from North Carolina, two of our webmasters at 2600 and the Kevin Mitnick site who have been updating people.
[25:25.260 --> 25:29.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Any new developments over the past couple of weeks, things that people might need to know about?
[25:31.080 --> 25:36.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, as far as the post story goes, I was able to get an update.
[25:37.140 --> 25:47.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: I followed up over the weekend with Rene Sanchez, who was unresponsive, though he said that he would talk to his editor on Monday to try and get a correction put in.
[25:48.320 --> 25:49.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: Monday, of course, has come and gone.
[25:49.860 --> 25:54.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's been no correction, and despite Peterson being captured, there's been no follow-up either.
[25:55.780 --> 25:58.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was able to speak to someone in the L.A.
[25:58.680 --> 26:10.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bureau of the Post today, who informed me that Sanchez is out of town on assignment, and in fact, all available Washington Post staff has been reassigned to cover the impeachment issue.
[26:10.400 --> 26:15.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: So every single Washington Post reporter is unavailable now because of the impeachment thing?
[26:15.720 --> 26:16.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Apparently.
[26:16.780 --> 26:25.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they're unable to run any correction or fix any story that conveys blatantly wrong information because the country is in some sort of a crisis.
[26:25.860 --> 26:33.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: The person I spoke to says that she just knows what she overhears, and apparently she overheard that everyone's gone.
[26:33.820 --> 26:35.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Was this person supposed to be in the office to start with?
[26:36.120 --> 26:37.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: It sounded like she was a reporter.
[26:37.720 --> 26:40.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't get the impression it's a very large office.
[26:40.800 --> 26:43.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you're talking to the, I believe, the L.A.
[26:43.540 --> 26:48.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bureau of the Washington Post, which is where this story was excreted from.
[26:50.260 --> 26:55.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: But it's just unbelievable to me that they can just do this and not care to get it right.
[26:56.140 --> 27:00.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, clearly, you spoke to the reporter over the weekend, or before the weekend.
[27:00.980 --> 27:02.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, well, you spoke on the phone, didn't you?
[27:02.680 --> 27:02.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[27:03.080 --> 27:08.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you were able to convince this person that it was completely wrong.
[27:08.500 --> 27:11.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: The indictment did not say that, therefore he was not charged with this crime.
[27:11.440 --> 27:18.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: How can you go and report in the Washington Post somebody is charged with a crime when they're not charged with that crime, and then not want to fix it?
[27:19.100 --> 27:28.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I sent email, I sent faxes, made telephone calls, even wrote a letter to the editor, I've gotten zero, zilch, nothing back from the Washington Post.
[27:28.220 --> 27:29.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: That is how much they care.
[27:29.480 --> 27:31.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: They do not really give a damn.
[27:31.800 --> 27:33.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, how else do you read something like that?
[27:33.900 --> 27:42.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you see, he conceded that it was factually incorrect, correct, but he didn't feel very, he didn't feel guilty enough, I suppose, is the real problem.
[27:44.960 --> 27:51.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: I guess, you know, these reporters, they have a lot to do, and they don't understand the real power that they have here.
[27:51.620 --> 27:56.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, this story was copied hundreds of times in other newspapers.
[27:56.820 --> 28:00.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, that is the worst thing, because now it's starting to pop up all over the world.
[28:00.680 --> 28:08.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the most ridiculous part was that all the other newspapers that syndicated it copied it on Sunday, after Peterson had already been caught anyways.
[28:09.260 --> 28:09.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[28:10.500 --> 28:13.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, it's really, yeah, it's kind of outrageous.
[28:14.220 --> 28:26.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, that also presented the Post with the perfect opportunity to correct the first story by saying, here, here's an update, he was caught, and by the way, we were totally wrong when we said that Mitnick was charged with stealing credit cards,
[28:26.780 --> 28:27.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: credit card numbers.
[28:27.640 --> 28:32.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: He really, in his own defense, he really blamed the federal prosecutors.
[28:32.620 --> 28:43.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: He said, quote, the clear sense that the federal prosecutor was giving me was that the credit card numbers were part of it, it being the net common part of the indictment.
[28:43.180 --> 29:01.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: And so, I guess what we have here is, he felt that since the story was about Peterson, not Mitnick, the Mitnick part that he mentioned in one sentence didn't deserve any further research, and so he just kind of took the prosecutor's word, the prosecutor just kind of set it aside.
[29:02.140 --> 29:10.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if you're that reporter, you know, you just, you don't have time to analyze the indictment, let alone read it.
[29:11.020 --> 29:18.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: I just find that kind of operation to be totally, I don't know, dismaying, I guess is the best word I can think of.
[29:18.600 --> 29:20.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: That they would care so Irresponsible.
[29:20.780 --> 29:21.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Very irresponsible.
[29:22.000 --> 29:22.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[29:23.120 --> 29:30.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, of course, we invite our listeners to contact the post on their own behalf and express their concern one way or the other.
[29:31.160 --> 29:34.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I can't imagine how you can back this kind of thing up.
[29:34.580 --> 29:39.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, if we make a mistake here and someone tells us about it, you know, we don't hide it.
[29:39.640 --> 29:40.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: We don't not tell people.
[29:40.980 --> 29:43.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: We don't let that opinion not be heard.
[29:43.740 --> 29:46.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Or, you know, in this case, it's not really an opinion, it's a fact.
[29:46.400 --> 29:48.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: That, you know, what they said was completely wrong.
[29:48.580 --> 29:55.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: For them not to print any of the letters that were sent to them, for them not to acknowledge that, you know, the facts were wrong, not to call people back.
[29:55.580 --> 30:05.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, it's just a certain kind of, I don't know, superiority that some elements of the media seem to have, where they pretty much speak gospel and there's no room for error anywhere.
[30:05.800 --> 30:07.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, we're part of the media, too.
[30:08.780 --> 30:10.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: We've become part of the media here at WBAI.
[30:11.420 --> 30:13.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: And we've got power to get the word out, too, as well.
[30:14.140 --> 30:16.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: So we'd like people to help spread that around.
[30:16.440 --> 30:17.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's up on the website.
[30:17.340 --> 30:26.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're going to be putting more pressure on the post, as well, to acknowledge officially that they were wrong, that they're spreading all kinds of mistruths around.
[30:26.620 --> 30:36.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course, even if they put a front page article out saying we were wrong, that doesn't undo it, because, as you mentioned, newspapers all over the world are picking up the story and printing it verbatim.
[30:37.100 --> 30:40.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, and you can't expect them to check all the facts either.
[30:40.780 --> 30:50.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's really, it's an insidious thing, you know, where you have basically a source of news and everybody else just sort of echoes the same voice without inserting anything, anything at all.
[30:51.400 --> 30:52.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, it's very sad.
[30:53.440 --> 30:56.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, and it's also, I just think it's funny that they blamed Congress.
[30:58.340 --> 30:59.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because, well...
[30:59.360 --> 31:02.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're out chasing down undecided Congress members.
[31:03.260 --> 31:04.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Congressmen, that's why.
[31:05.440 --> 31:06.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's why they can't correct it.
[31:07.180 --> 31:08.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, blame impeachment, huh?
[31:08.960 --> 31:09.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[31:09.480 --> 31:11.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, they blame the weather if they could.
[31:11.940 --> 31:13.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's just how they work.
[31:14.920 --> 31:17.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, we're going to try to take some phone calls now.
[31:17.280 --> 31:20.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's rather complicated with all these people on the phone, but we're going to give it a shot anyway.
[31:20.660 --> 31:27.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: We ask people to please keep the topic, keep the calls on topic so that we don't float around too much.
[31:28.100 --> 31:31.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: 212-209-2900 is our phone number if you're out of the country.
[31:31.500 --> 31:32.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course, country code one.
[31:32.680 --> 31:36.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: We are on real audio as well as 99.5 FM in New York City.
[31:38.460 --> 31:41.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I guess we also have some listener mail.
[31:41.540 --> 31:48.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: What I'd like to do is, while the calls are pouring in, read a couple of pieces of listener mail, which means we need the listener mail theme.
[31:54.820 --> 31:55.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Since when is that the theme?
[31:59.940 --> 32:01.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: I guess it'll have to do.
[32:01.540 --> 32:08.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, after listening to the first half of the December 1st show, I have two suggestions for saying the www at the beginning of a URL.
[32:08.740 --> 32:12.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Pronounce it dub, dub, dub for maximum efficiency.
[32:13.560 --> 32:14.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[32:14.500 --> 32:15.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[32:15.040 --> 32:16.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: What do you guys think about that one?
[32:16.160 --> 32:16.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Dub, dub, dub?
[32:17.760 --> 32:19.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: I feel like an idiot saying that.
[32:19.560 --> 32:22.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ah, yeah, isn't that the Warner Brothers Network theme?
[32:22.500 --> 32:22.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: What's that?
[32:23.060 --> 32:23.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is it?
[32:24.380 --> 32:24.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[32:25.100 --> 32:26.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Dancing frog, doesn't he say that?
[32:27.020 --> 32:27.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Does he say that?
[32:27.840 --> 32:29.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: The dub, dub, WB.
[32:29.600 --> 32:29.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[32:30.300 --> 32:33.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, that voice just coming in out of nowhere is Isaac, who has just landed from Queens.
[32:34.100 --> 32:34.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course.
[32:34.700 --> 32:35.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: How do you guys say it out there?
[32:36.140 --> 32:36.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: In Queens?
[32:37.460 --> 32:40.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, way out across the East River, we're still using www.
[32:41.160 --> 32:41.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[32:43.520 --> 32:54.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, someone else said, actually the same letter writer says, don't say it at all like your guest suggested since both Internet Explorer and Netscape can figure it out if you leave out the www.
[32:55.240 --> 32:55.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's not true.
[32:55.900 --> 32:56.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's not true.
[32:56.700 --> 33:06.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, if you leave out the www and the .com, .net, .org, or whatever the suffix is there, it'll figure it out by just kind of throwing together as many combinations as possible.
[33:06.200 --> 33:10.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, if you leave out the first www and you put .com, it's not going to work.
[33:11.140 --> 33:12.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't understand what you just said.
[33:12.760 --> 33:15.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you leave out everything...
[33:15.060 --> 33:21.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you were to just type Yahoo, Y-A-H-O-O, the browser will put in the www and the .com.
[33:21.740 --> 33:28.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: If Yahoo.com, say, didn't exist, it would try .net, then it would try .org, and it'll just keep trying suffixes.
[33:28.340 --> 33:31.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, but if you try 2600.com, you're not going to get www.
[33:31.360 --> 33:31.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Correct.
[33:31.520 --> 33:32.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's 2600.com.
[33:32.220 --> 33:32.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Correct.
[33:32.580 --> 33:36.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you supply the suffix yourself, the browser won't start throwing it in.
[33:36.540 --> 33:38.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are you saying if you type 2600, it's going to work?
[33:38.580 --> 33:39.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: It will work.
[33:39.220 --> 33:39.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[33:39.540 --> 33:42.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's also, but that's dependent on your own DNS configuration.
[33:43.280 --> 33:43.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, that's true.
[33:44.260 --> 33:47.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Another place, it might be alias to it or it might be set up to work.
[33:47.760 --> 33:48.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Very true.
[33:48.380 --> 33:48.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't...
[33:48.780 --> 33:53.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, you guys who have access to the net right now, you might want to try typing 2600 and see if that works.
[33:53.060 --> 33:53.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think it's going to work.
[33:54.120 --> 33:54.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: It'll work.
[33:54.860 --> 33:55.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Really?
[33:55.400 --> 33:56.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Depending on your browser, it'll work.
[33:56.820 --> 33:58.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, well, I don't think it's going to work on my browser.
[33:59.180 --> 34:00.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Moving on to...
[34:00.840 --> 34:02.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: I got to vote down the dub-dub-dub thing.
[34:02.880 --> 34:03.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just say it.
[34:04.180 --> 34:04.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Go ahead, say it.
[34:04.960 --> 34:05.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Dub-dub-dub.
[34:05.460 --> 34:06.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: You sound stupid.
[34:06.840 --> 34:08.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Nobody doesn't sound stupid when they say that.
[34:09.400 --> 34:10.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[34:10.480 --> 34:10.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just try.
[34:11.000 --> 34:12.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: It doesn't work if you don't put it in...
[34:12.360 --> 34:14.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: You put it in the suffix but not the prefix.
[34:14.460 --> 34:14.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: It doesn't work.
[34:15.660 --> 34:16.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: What if you just type 2600?
[34:16.960 --> 34:17.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Does that work?
[34:18.120 --> 34:18.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: It should.
[34:19.340 --> 34:20.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, that I'd like to know.
[34:20.700 --> 34:21.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Takes longer, though.
[34:21.680 --> 34:21.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[34:22.800 --> 34:28.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, I've just gotten absolute proof that it is not impossible to get normal non-hacking people to sympathize with hackers.
[34:28.680 --> 34:31.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was listening to the December 1st episode of...
[34:31.220 --> 34:32.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: I like when they call them episodes, you know?
[34:32.900 --> 34:34.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's like cliffhanger episodes.
[34:34.540 --> 34:35.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: The weekly series.
[34:36.000 --> 34:38.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: The December 1st episode of Off the Hook in my school's library.
[34:38.840 --> 34:40.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: People listen to Off the Hook in their school's library.
[34:41.000 --> 34:41.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, I think that's pretty cool.
[34:41.920 --> 34:46.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, they go there on their lunch break or, you know, cut class or something and wind up in the library and they're listening to Off the Hook.
[34:46.620 --> 34:47.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's not bad.
[34:47.400 --> 34:47.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, kids.
[34:47.980 --> 34:48.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: How you doing?
[34:48.540 --> 34:50.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's no longer a quiet place then, the library.
[34:50.740 --> 34:52.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, if they're wearing headphones, you can do that.
[34:52.640 --> 34:53.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, then other people don't hear.
[34:55.180 --> 34:57.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: This person had to be using speakers if other people were hearing.
[34:57.660 --> 34:58.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's true.
[34:58.400 --> 34:58.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[34:58.700 --> 35:00.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know exactly what the situation was.
[35:00.260 --> 35:11.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anyway, one of the librarians asked what I was listening to listened, which is rare for anyone in authority at my school, but she also understood what the problem was and sided with Kevin.
[35:12.040 --> 35:14.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: She even asked if I had a copy of 2600 she could see.
[35:14.960 --> 35:16.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: She read it and thought it was pretty cool.
[35:16.980 --> 35:17.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, this is a librarian.
[35:17.860 --> 35:18.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is a librarian.
[35:18.540 --> 35:19.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: The moral is they can be taught.
[35:20.100 --> 35:22.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, sometimes, you know, the moral is that they actually have a clue before you reach them.
[35:22.900 --> 35:32.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, some people have not been desensitized to injustice and they're willing to listen to people around them, even if they are mere kids in the school.
[35:35.460 --> 35:39.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sometimes, that does not happen as this next letter will aptly tell us.
[35:41.340 --> 35:42.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, here we go.
[35:42.080 --> 35:43.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was just wondering if...
[35:44.280 --> 35:48.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: This person also had a question about the January 1st meeting, 2600 meetings.
[35:48.920 --> 35:49.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is there going to be one?
[35:49.880 --> 35:51.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, they fall on January 1st.
[35:51.260 --> 35:55.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's really up to the individual meeting if they're going to be on January 1st or January 8th.
[35:55.320 --> 35:56.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, what about New York?
[35:56.140 --> 35:58.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I'm not sure yet because I'm not sure if Citicorp is closed.
[35:59.880 --> 36:01.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think it might be closed on January 1st.
[36:01.760 --> 36:02.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: That would be interesting.
[36:02.480 --> 36:04.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: If Citicorp is closed, then I guess we have to have it on the 8th.
[36:04.740 --> 36:05.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: On the 8th.
[36:05.100 --> 36:11.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: But other places, you know, the ones that meet in open fields, they can just be out there on the 1st without a problem.
[36:11.540 --> 36:12.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: We have meetings all over the place.
[36:13.060 --> 36:13.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's true.
[36:13.740 --> 36:14.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: In Poland.
[36:14.740 --> 36:15.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: We have a meeting in Poland.
[36:16.260 --> 36:22.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you have to bring a certain color book because, you know, they're not as wide open and democratic as we are here.
[36:23.200 --> 36:25.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: So they have to sort of hide a little bit.
[36:25.440 --> 36:28.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: And the way they know a hacker is somebody who carries a certain color book.
[36:28.760 --> 36:31.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: So if you look at the next issue, 2600, you'll see that.
[36:31.400 --> 36:31.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Interesting.
[36:31.940 --> 36:33.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, we'll definitely look for that.
[36:33.340 --> 36:35.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anyway, so again, check with your local meeting for that.
[36:36.560 --> 36:39.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'd like to mention yet another example of school administration stupidity.
[36:39.860 --> 36:48.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: About a year ago, one of my friends created a webpage on his own service provider's face that consisted of rather biting opinions about a certain science teacher both him and I had.
[36:49.240 --> 36:49.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[36:50.020 --> 36:54.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: However, by no means was this considered slanderous since the contents of the page were clearly stated as opinion.
[36:55.600 --> 37:02.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anyway, some student got hold of the webpage's address through a search engine and found it to be funny, so he proceeded with his AOL browser to print out the page and bring it to school.
[37:03.200 --> 37:03.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-oh.
[37:03.760 --> 37:09.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, at which point he passed the print out around the classroom in which the teacher aforementioned taught.
[37:09.660 --> 37:13.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: One of the more moralistic students felt it was her duty to give the print out to the teacher.
[37:14.360 --> 37:15.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: The teacher brought it to the principal.
[37:16.260 --> 37:17.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: The principal called the police.
[37:17.680 --> 37:18.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: The police called the feds.
[37:18.660 --> 37:20.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: The feds called the executioners and that's the end of the story.
[37:21.300 --> 37:29.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, uh, it, it, it, it made it as far as the principal, but, um, the principal then interrogated every student in every class that had the teacher.
[37:29.620 --> 37:31.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is amazing what they spend their time doing.
[37:31.780 --> 37:37.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was called down several times as a possible suspect because I was fingered as someone who knew something about computers.
[37:38.340 --> 37:39.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: As you all know.
[37:39.240 --> 37:40.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a curse nowadays.
[37:40.100 --> 37:40.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: That is a curse.
[37:41.040 --> 37:42.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was threatened with suspension.
[37:43.620 --> 37:45.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: You should see the way this person spells suspension.
[37:47.080 --> 37:47.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: suspension.
[37:47.440 --> 37:48.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Not one T, but two.
[37:48.900 --> 37:50.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Does that say something about the writer as a student?
[37:51.000 --> 37:54.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Actually, if you, if you pronounce this, you can pronounce it suspend tension.
[37:54.680 --> 37:55.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Suspend tension.
[37:55.260 --> 37:55.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, that's not bad.
[37:56.120 --> 37:59.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Which might be a term they have in that school for really serious suspension.
[38:00.100 --> 38:00.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[38:00.540 --> 38:04.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: But anyway, he was threatened with that and even expulsion if I did not confess to it.
[38:04.980 --> 38:12.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, that would be interesting to try and, uh, deal with in a court of law so far as, uh, violation of First Amendment rights.
[38:12.640 --> 38:15.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Did they, uh, did they mention the age or grade?
[38:15.860 --> 38:18.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I don't believe they do.
[38:19.440 --> 38:21.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't believe it's mentioned anywhere in this, in this letter.
[38:21.820 --> 38:23.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I, I get the feeling that it's a high school.
[38:23.960 --> 38:24.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hmm.
[38:24.480 --> 38:25.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: It could be a junior high school.
[38:25.840 --> 38:26.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: I doubt it's an elementary school.
[38:27.460 --> 38:28.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: But you know what?
[38:28.080 --> 38:29.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: It could also be a college.
[38:29.620 --> 38:33.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, and Micah, you're a college student so you have some knowledge of college injustice, right?
[38:33.680 --> 38:40.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, well, they, they, they've, they've been pretty good as far as, uh, letting you say what you want outside.
[38:40.600 --> 38:49.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know, uh, here at, uh, over in Chico, there's actually, there's a website where, uh, where there's just a message board where you can look up different professors, what students have written about them.
[38:50.600 --> 38:52.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, they're pretty good about that.
[38:52.240 --> 38:56.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, yeah, we have our, our own fair share of fascism over here.
[38:56.960 --> 39:06.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, new network policies coming out to, uh, really kind of cripple the ResNet system trying to make it a lot less useful.
[39:06.700 --> 39:08.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Things like, uh, enabling port security.
[39:08.820 --> 39:12.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: So you can only have one machine and one IP in each room.
[39:13.600 --> 39:16.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, and they, they don't mind if you run.
[39:17.400 --> 39:21.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Rather, you're allowed to run servers as long as it isn't dedicated.
[39:21.580 --> 39:35.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I know we've had lots of cases in, uh, California universities of, uh, things like in UCLA where the acceptable use policy specifically, uh, prohibits open-source or the use of open-source on the network or any Linux.
[39:36.140 --> 39:36.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hmm.
[39:36.960 --> 39:38.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's, that's kind of funny.
[39:38.440 --> 39:39.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's rather curious.
[39:39.940 --> 39:46.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, they're, they didn't actually change the network policy when someone changed it, when someone challenged it, rather.
[39:47.160 --> 39:51.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, uh, there was a case that's on a nerdherder.com.
[39:51.220 --> 39:52.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: I can get the URL for that.
[39:52.540 --> 40:00.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I think we should contact some people from, uh, the organizations that put out these operating systems to see how they feel about being, you know, blacklisted like this.
[40:01.320 --> 40:03.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think the reaction might be kind of interesting.
[40:03.760 --> 40:06.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let me continue with this, uh, with this story here, with this letter.
[40:06.780 --> 40:15.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, my friend wrongly assuming that he had First Amendment rights, went down to the office and admitted to making the page but said he had nothing to do with its distribution within the school.
[40:15.600 --> 40:19.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, keep in mind, those of you listening, this was a page that was not done on school computers.
[40:19.780 --> 40:22.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was done, you know, at someone's private account.
[40:22.440 --> 40:24.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's simply an opinion of a, of a school teacher.
[40:24.720 --> 40:38.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: The principal proceeded to suspend him for five days from making a webpage containing opinions, created outside class on his own time, because it, quote, contained harassing material about the said teacher, unquote.
[40:38.860 --> 40:46.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was also called down to the office again because she, the principal, believed I was still involved and questioned during a class that I was supposed to be taking a test in.
[40:47.100 --> 40:52.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Essentially, what it all boils down to is the unconstitutionality under which schools operate by.
[40:52.360 --> 40:57.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: I can understand weapons rules and such, but the right of free speech being eliminated is unacceptable.
[40:57.740 --> 41:10.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Furthermore, my locker was searched, my issues of 2600 were confiscated as contraband, as well as my graphing calculator, which had some games on it, and my notebook, which contained nothing more than the phone numbers of the principal's office and voicemail numbers,
[41:10.540 --> 41:14.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: which happened to be printed in huge bald print on the front of the student handbook.
[41:16.460 --> 41:27.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: I proceeded to accuse them of theft of personal property, at which point they told me that the issues of 2600 had been destroyed along with my notebook and the memory had been erased on my calculator, but I could have it back.
[41:28.400 --> 41:32.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: What more can I say about their utter lack of knowledge about computers and hacker society in general?
[41:33.500 --> 41:38.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, their complete disregard for this individual's rights are more of my primary concern.
[41:38.740 --> 41:47.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would definitely see if I couldn't get in touch with the ACLU or someplace similar, possibly go down to a bookstore and pick up the ACLU's student handbook.
[41:48.400 --> 41:52.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this person's rights were basically trampled over.
[41:52.120 --> 41:54.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was a book that was out a number of years ago.
[41:54.480 --> 41:55.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: I remember when I was in high school I had a copy of this.
[41:56.120 --> 41:58.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: And boy, was I marked as a result of that.
[42:03.000 --> 42:12.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: And through that book, we were able to figure out.
[42:12.500 --> 42:18.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: We put out an underground newspaper in my high school and we were able to figure out a way to get the school to pay for it.
[42:18.720 --> 42:19.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Really?
[42:19.160 --> 42:20.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: So that's how good that book was to me.
[42:20.760 --> 42:26.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: So yeah, there's all kinds of little things that you need I think there has to be some organization.
[42:27.200 --> 42:32.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: There really should be... I don't know of a particular website out there that just goes over rights of students, but there should be one if there isn't.
[42:32.640 --> 42:37.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I'm sure some of these people that go through this kind of thing can get together, compare stories.
[42:37.460 --> 42:40.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: But it's important to have firm ground to stand on.
[42:40.620 --> 42:48.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, if you are, in fact, dealing drugs and you're complaining about not having freedom of speech, it's going to be a lot harder for people to take you seriously.
[42:48.600 --> 42:57.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: You have to really be standing on some firm ground here and not be up to some criminal activity, you know, that you're complaining about being harassed for.
[42:58.760 --> 43:04.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: We want to hear from people who are actually having their rights violated, like this person here.
[43:04.800 --> 43:05.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would definitely pursue that.
[43:06.240 --> 43:08.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: See if you can't even get the media involved.
[43:08.140 --> 43:14.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: As much as we belittle and berate the media, former company excluded, of course.
[43:14.920 --> 43:16.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, remember, the media is a tool.
[43:16.460 --> 43:18.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you have every right to use that tool as much as anybody else.
[43:18.540 --> 43:18.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, very much so.
[43:18.840 --> 43:26.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Also, in this day and age, you have every prospect of becoming part of that media through the web, through the net, various means.
[43:27.020 --> 43:29.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, you have to be forceful, though.
[43:29.480 --> 43:31.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a lot harder to get access to radio.
[43:32.160 --> 43:37.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, 10, 20 years ago, it was a lot easier for people to actually, you know, get shows on college radio stations.
[43:37.120 --> 43:39.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: These days, it's a lot harder.
[43:39.320 --> 43:47.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Stations are being, you know, wiped out, taken over by NPR, or just closed down, turned into 10-watt, you know, stations that nobody can listen to.
[43:47.560 --> 43:49.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, you need to demand your rights.
[43:50.580 --> 43:51.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[43:51.280 --> 43:57.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: It seems that by the school's reasoning, that girl who showed it to the teacher should be the one who was harassing him.
[43:58.140 --> 44:00.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, I don't see the student showing it to the teacher.
[44:01.580 --> 44:06.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: She's the one who, uh, who print, who, uh, well, I guess she didn't print it out, but she showed it to him.
[44:06.240 --> 44:06.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Mm-hmm.
[44:07.040 --> 44:08.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: She started a whole lot of trouble.
[44:08.900 --> 44:09.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[44:09.980 --> 44:11.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, final letter here.
[44:11.020 --> 44:15.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: I am listening to the December 1st show of Off the Hook, and I would like to say that Rebel is a nut.
[44:16.380 --> 44:17.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: I am...
[44:17.740 --> 44:20.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: I could just stop right there, I guess, but, uh, he goes on.
[44:20.460 --> 44:21.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think you should.
[44:21.360 --> 44:22.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: He goes on to justify it.
[44:22.420 --> 44:23.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I am in the U.S.
[44:23.220 --> 44:24.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Navy, and I would like to say...
[44:24.700 --> 44:26.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's comforting to think people in the U.S.
[44:26.320 --> 44:28.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Navy are sitting around and saying, hey, Rebel's a nut.
[44:28.220 --> 44:34.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, I would like to say that we have ballistic missile subs that can sit off the coast of the U.S.
[44:34.340 --> 44:35.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: and fire missiles around the world.
[44:36.080 --> 44:38.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: If that's not long-range, I would like to know what is.
[44:38.640 --> 44:41.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I believe he's referring to Rebel's comment that there are no more ICBMs.
[44:41.620 --> 44:43.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: There are no more ICBMs in the United States.
[44:43.500 --> 44:44.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's interesting.
[44:44.980 --> 44:52.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: However, we can take heart in knowing that those missiles are under the control of two separate people and must be manually launched after the receipt of an EAM, emergency action message.
[44:53.400 --> 44:55.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, other than that, I'd like to say I love your show.
[44:55.480 --> 44:57.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: I hope to be able to get it, uh, in Japan.
[44:57.060 --> 44:59.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, if you have access to a computer, you certainly can.
[45:00.120 --> 45:02.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then he also closes by saying, I hope you didn't get a ticket.
[45:02.160 --> 45:02.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's true.
[45:02.860 --> 45:08.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, uh, last time we left everybody, uh, it was a bit of a crisis situation where, uh, my car was downstairs.
[45:09.220 --> 45:10.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I stumbled down the stairs.
[45:10.580 --> 45:15.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: A double-speed parking meter, and we'd run out of money, and we forgot to go down during the middle of the show to put money back in.
[45:15.520 --> 45:16.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Fortunately, we made it in time.
[45:16.980 --> 45:18.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was no ticket, and everyone's happy.
[45:18.880 --> 45:21.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Unless I got a ticket and somebody took it, which has happened.
[45:22.520 --> 45:23.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's actually happened to you?
[45:23.700 --> 45:24.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a real way to cause confusion.
[45:24.900 --> 45:26.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just run down the street and take everybody's ticket.
[45:27.580 --> 45:31.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then you can be assured there'll be court battles in months, years to come.
[45:31.440 --> 45:33.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, I'm not giving anybody ideas on that.
[45:33.780 --> 45:36.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's rather, you know, it's an honor system.
[45:36.460 --> 45:39.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: You put the ticket on the windshield wiper, and you just assume it's going to stay there.
[45:39.880 --> 45:42.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, of course, uh, you never know what's going to happen in New York.
[45:43.140 --> 45:43.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Very true.
[45:43.580 --> 45:47.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, so that's, uh, that's the letter, uh, the letters for this week.
[45:49.640 --> 45:51.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so much for the letter theme.
[45:51.960 --> 45:53.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, let's try to take some phone calls.
[45:53.440 --> 45:55.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: 212-209-2900.
[45:56.120 --> 45:56.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: The program is off the hook.
[45:57.020 --> 45:57.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Emmanuel Goldstein here.
[45:58.220 --> 46:00.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, we have Micah out in California.
[46:00.580 --> 46:02.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: And Carrie, you're still there with us in North Carolina?
[46:02.780 --> 46:02.920]  Yep.
[46:03.120 --> 46:03.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, great.
[46:03.920 --> 46:05.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, of course, we have Isaac over there on the other side of the room.
[46:06.480 --> 46:08.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you have a package which we might be opening later on.
[46:08.620 --> 46:11.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, let's see if we have any interesting phone calls here first.
[46:12.260 --> 46:13.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: And let's go to this.
[46:15.080 --> 46:17.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: This, this one has Rebel written all over it.
[46:18.060 --> 46:19.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just the way it's flashing?
[46:19.320 --> 46:19.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, look at that.
[46:20.820 --> 46:21.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Ooh, yes.
[46:21.740 --> 46:22.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: You might be right.
[46:23.680 --> 46:26.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, you know, maybe we should give him equal time.
[46:26.480 --> 46:26.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, fine.
[46:26.920 --> 46:28.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, let's see what we can do.
[46:28.280 --> 46:29.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[46:29.840 --> 46:31.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, Emmanuel, calling from Chicago.
[46:32.380 --> 46:33.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's calling from Chicago.
[46:33.320 --> 46:34.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's no way.
[46:34.600 --> 46:36.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: See, that proves it wasn't Caller ID.
[46:36.600 --> 46:37.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: We don't have Caller ID here.
[46:37.700 --> 46:39.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's no way I could have known that was him.
[46:39.200 --> 46:40.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's just, it's a sense, if you will.
[46:40.840 --> 46:41.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's instant.
[46:41.380 --> 46:43.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm calling from the 315...
[46:43.200 --> 46:44.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Wait a minute, not 315.
[46:44.560 --> 46:46.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: 315 is in New York.
[46:46.580 --> 46:46.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: 773.
[46:47.140 --> 46:48.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's one of those wacky ones.
[46:48.680 --> 46:49.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's right.
[46:49.380 --> 46:52.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: And speaking of area codes, I was just in Phoenix, Arizona.
[46:53.000 --> 46:54.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, that's an area code city.
[46:54.540 --> 46:55.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: But wait a minute.
[46:55.720 --> 46:57.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was down by the Mexican border.
[46:57.760 --> 46:58.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: I went...
[46:58.440 --> 47:00.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Wait, well, well, Phoenix, Mexican border?
[47:00.540 --> 47:02.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, I was on my way to Phoenix.
[47:02.200 --> 47:03.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I was near, like, El Paso, Texas.
[47:04.380 --> 47:04.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[47:05.540 --> 47:07.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I wanted to call Mexico.
[47:07.180 --> 47:10.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just thought, figured, you know, what are the costs to call Mexico?
[47:10.840 --> 47:12.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, you can call Mexico from New York.
[47:12.800 --> 47:13.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: What, no, no, no, wait a minute.
[47:13.960 --> 47:18.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: Guess how much AT&T charges from a payphone right at the border to call the town, right?
[47:18.400 --> 47:21.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: The same as they would charge from the Canadian border to call Mexico.
[47:21.180 --> 47:22.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's the same rate.
[47:22.240 --> 47:23.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but wait a minute.
[47:23.780 --> 47:24.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know how much it is to call?
[47:24.820 --> 47:25.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, tell me.
[47:25.460 --> 47:25.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: How much is it?
[47:26.140 --> 47:27.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: $3.50.
[47:27.500 --> 47:28.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: And how much would it be from here?
[47:28.820 --> 47:31.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: From here, it would be, I think, like $5 or something.
[47:31.820 --> 47:32.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: I haven't...
[47:32.500 --> 47:34.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'll bet it would be $3.50, too.
[47:35.000 --> 47:35.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe.
[47:35.660 --> 47:35.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe.
[47:35.900 --> 47:36.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: But anyway...
[47:36.360 --> 47:37.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: What's your point?
[47:37.420 --> 47:40.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, my point is that why they charge so much if you're just calling...
[47:40.820 --> 47:43.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just like calling from Manhattan to northern New Jersey.
[47:43.940 --> 47:51.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, but you notice that when you call from Manhattan to another state, they charge you more money than if you call from Manhattan to Brooklyn.
[47:51.720 --> 47:54.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, it might be nearer geographically, but you're going over borders.
[47:55.560 --> 47:58.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, also in Mexico, when I was in Mexico, they have...
[47:58.660 --> 48:01.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: To dial out, their 011 is 0-0.
[48:01.920 --> 48:02.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: In other words...
[48:02.700 --> 48:03.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Most countries it is.
[48:03.760 --> 48:05.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Most countries it is 0-0.
[48:05.280 --> 48:05.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Really?
[48:05.820 --> 48:05.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[48:06.240 --> 48:07.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think all of Europe is 0-0.
[48:08.140 --> 48:09.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, I didn't know that.
[48:09.140 --> 48:09.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[48:09.280 --> 48:11.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: So it's 0-0, country code, city code, and number?
[48:11.260 --> 48:11.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[48:11.620 --> 48:14.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's only the United States and Canada where it's 0-1-1.
[48:14.680 --> 48:15.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh.
[48:15.220 --> 48:16.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: But any of our international issues...
[48:16.900 --> 48:18.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: And to dial 0-1 is the local...
[48:18.480 --> 48:25.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: In other words, if you're calling within Mexico, like from, let's say, the northern Mexico to southern Mexico, it's 0-1, and then the city code and number.
[48:26.660 --> 48:27.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hmm.
[48:27.400 --> 48:27.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Interesting.
[48:28.240 --> 48:28.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[48:28.560 --> 48:30.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: And also, let's see, what else?
[48:31.060 --> 48:31.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: When I was in...
[48:31.740 --> 48:36.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, I was traveling, and at Motel 6 and Super 8 Motels, they have a...
[48:36.680 --> 48:38.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're going in style, aren't you?
[48:38.920 --> 48:39.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[48:40.120 --> 48:40.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, in style.
[48:41.160 --> 48:44.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: A Super 8 and Motel 6 is a phone where you can make...
[48:44.520 --> 48:48.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: In the lobby, at most Super 8s and Motel 6 throughout the country, you can make fleet phone calls.
[48:48.760 --> 48:50.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just have the operator dial the number for you.
[48:51.160 --> 48:52.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Get the local...
[48:52.100 --> 48:53.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Get their long distance operator, AT&T, or...
[48:53.960 --> 48:55.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's usually like...
[48:55.000 --> 48:56.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Operators like Sprint or MCI.
[48:58.200 --> 48:58.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[48:59.120 --> 49:01.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you can just have them bill it to the phone you're calling from.
[49:03.180 --> 49:05.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's fascinating news there, Rebel, but we have to move on.
[49:06.020 --> 49:07.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is there anything else you'd like to close with?
[49:07.480 --> 49:09.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is there going to be a 2600 meeting on January 1st?
[49:09.900 --> 49:11.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we already addressed that issue.
[49:11.460 --> 49:12.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: I guess you weren't listening to the show.
[49:12.640 --> 49:13.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's address it to the...
[49:13.660 --> 49:18.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Listen, here from Chicago, let's address it to all of the New York City, that there...
[49:18.640 --> 49:21.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is there going to be a 2600, because not everybody was at the 2600 meeting.
[49:21.980 --> 49:23.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we didn't decide then.
[49:23.240 --> 49:24.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: We still haven't decided.
[49:24.440 --> 49:28.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Basically, if the city court building is closed on January 1st, I guess we'll have to have it the week after that.
[49:29.160 --> 49:29.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[49:30.000 --> 49:35.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Unless it's like sunny and balmy outside and we can all hang out in the street, but, you know, it's probably not going to be on January 1st.
[49:35.800 --> 49:36.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right?
[49:36.480 --> 49:37.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks for calling.
[49:42.640 --> 49:45.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why he was touring the United States, but I decided against it.
[49:45.200 --> 49:46.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's not really a tour.
[49:46.260 --> 49:47.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's more like a race.
[49:48.360 --> 49:48.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.
[49:49.700 --> 49:52.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: And he's ahead for the moment, but I think they're closing in on him.
[49:52.600 --> 49:54.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was just going to call him a nut.
[49:54.700 --> 49:58.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, but then we'd have to give more equal time to counter that.
[49:59.000 --> 49:59.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's take another phone call.
[49:59.880 --> 50:00.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[50:00.560 --> 50:01.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sorry.
[50:01.060 --> 50:01.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[50:01.400 --> 50:01.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the air.
[50:02.340 --> 50:02.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi.
[50:03.060 --> 50:03.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Speak up, please.
[50:03.960 --> 50:23.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Could you give me any information about our services that allow you to use your email account and actually put in one plus the number of a fax machine and actually literally fax from an email account?
[50:23.320 --> 50:30.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had just heard about something like that, but I couldn't get any specifics, and I was wondering if you knew anything about it.
[50:30.900 --> 50:35.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you want to basically be able to, from your account, mail something and have it show up as a fax.
[50:35.980 --> 50:37.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, someone had just told me.
[50:37.380 --> 50:54.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't know if this person was joking or just had a vivid imagination, but they said that they had found a free service that they read about in a magazine where this person also has a free email account that also allows you to have a free voicemail in your email account.
[50:54.940 --> 50:58.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: So what this service has supposedly done is another free service.
[50:58.640 --> 51:00.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like a free email account, like Hotmail and all that.
[51:00.860 --> 51:17.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you write in a certain protocol on the address, you can literally fax via your email account or whatever you've put in the body of your email, whatever.
[51:17.460 --> 51:21.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can actually have that sent literally as a fax to a fax machine.
[51:21.760 --> 51:25.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I was just wondering if you have actually ever heard of anything like that.
[51:25.900 --> 51:27.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've heard theoretically of that.
[51:28.000 --> 51:28.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know any specifics.
[51:28.920 --> 51:29.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Isaac, have you heard of anything?
[51:30.020 --> 51:31.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: That wouldn't surprise me at all.
[51:31.440 --> 51:36.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's basically just as though you were printing out the email.
[51:36.820 --> 51:40.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Some service is just making the call and spitting it out someone's fax machine.
[51:40.440 --> 51:41.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: That wouldn't surprise me at all.
[51:41.800 --> 51:52.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: What would be really interesting is if someone was able to have a service where you could receive faxes, say it converts it into a PDF file and then like shoots it over to the person's email account.
[51:53.020 --> 51:53.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: That would be very cool.
[51:53.740 --> 51:55.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have heard of a service like that.
[51:56.120 --> 51:57.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: You've heard of that as well?
[51:57.100 --> 52:01.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, but I can't guarantee it was a PDF, obviously.
[52:01.940 --> 52:03.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I've heard of a service like that.
[52:04.020 --> 52:06.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I've been getting a plethora of free services.
[52:07.460 --> 52:12.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, everyone's been getting free email, but now I've gotten a place where I get free voicemail.
[52:12.500 --> 52:15.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And now this is like the creme de la creme where I can actually...
[52:15.840 --> 52:17.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is actually true.
[52:17.400 --> 52:19.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: I did try it out on my phone.
[52:19.160 --> 52:27.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't have a fax machine, but when I turned on my x machine, I did get the beep beep, but I didn't have the fax to actually verify it.
[52:27.880 --> 52:30.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: But if this is true, it seems like you can just...
[52:30.740 --> 52:32.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: I got a free website, free email.
[52:33.140 --> 52:36.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I literally just have everything free nowadays.
[52:36.580 --> 52:37.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a little...
[52:37.100 --> 52:37.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's becoming free.
[52:37.940 --> 52:39.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: So this just seemed like the icing on the cake.
[52:40.000 --> 52:46.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, I can just get free faxes from my free email and fax off my free homepage.
[52:47.180 --> 52:49.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, there's always a cost somewhere along the line.
[52:49.420 --> 52:53.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're probably faxing a big fat ad every time that, you know, you send somebody a fax.
[52:54.500 --> 52:55.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's going to annoy them.
[52:55.540 --> 52:58.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then they get put on lists, and they get all kinds of junk faxes they don't want to get.
[52:59.380 --> 53:01.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, everything is done for a reason.
[53:01.760 --> 53:04.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, there's no such thing as a free lunch, I hate to say.
[53:04.980 --> 53:05.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anyway, thanks for the call.
[53:05.980 --> 53:09.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, Isaac, you've got a package.
[53:09.140 --> 53:10.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Do you want to pass that thing over here?
[53:10.260 --> 53:10.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[53:10.840 --> 53:12.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: A couple of weeks ago, we talked about this.
[53:12.840 --> 53:13.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Correct.
[53:13.460 --> 53:14.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: It is a...
[53:14.840 --> 53:16.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is an MRE.
[53:16.500 --> 53:16.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: MRE.
[53:17.280 --> 53:17.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[53:18.040 --> 53:19.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, what does MRE stand for?
[53:19.340 --> 53:21.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a meal ready to eat.
[53:21.720 --> 53:22.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: The U.S.
[53:23.320 --> 53:28.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: military has been handing these out to GIs so they can meet their daily nutritional requirements.
[53:29.260 --> 53:31.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: This thing in a bag is ready to eat, you're trying to tell me.
[53:31.460 --> 53:33.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you see, you have to add water.
[53:33.920 --> 53:38.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is for after the year 2000, when we all have to live in bunkers for a while?
[53:38.360 --> 53:38.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, those will survive, yeah.
[53:39.120 --> 53:40.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, and this is what we're going to be eating.
[53:40.560 --> 53:41.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, not necessarily.
[53:41.520 --> 53:44.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: The first thing I pulled out of here is a napkin, and it looks like a spork.
[53:45.060 --> 53:46.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: That is definitely a spork.
[53:46.520 --> 53:47.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: You also have a little...
[53:47.140 --> 53:47.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Half spoon, half fork.
[53:47.920 --> 53:48.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[53:48.160 --> 53:51.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: You have a packet of salt, a packet of pepper in this.
[53:51.180 --> 53:51.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's okay if I open it.
[53:51.660 --> 53:52.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're not saving it for...
[53:52.960 --> 53:55.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I was planning on eating it for dinner tonight, but...
[53:55.540 --> 53:56.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're a very strange person, Isaac.
[53:57.100 --> 53:57.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[53:57.580 --> 53:58.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, let's see what we can have here.
[53:58.580 --> 54:00.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you can't let a perfectly good MRE go to waste.
[54:01.100 --> 54:01.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: At any rate, you have...
[54:01.840 --> 54:02.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's see if there is a perfectly good one here.
[54:03.000 --> 54:03.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, we have...
[54:03.740 --> 54:05.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Looks like a pack of pure sugar here.
[54:05.920 --> 54:06.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[54:06.400 --> 54:08.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: By the courtesy of the BOC Packaging Corporation.
[54:09.300 --> 54:11.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: No fortune on the back or anything like that.
[54:11.380 --> 54:14.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Then we have HeartSmart Non-Dairy Creamer.
[54:14.860 --> 54:15.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: HeartSmart.
[54:15.420 --> 54:15.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: HeartSmart.
[54:15.780 --> 54:16.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Registered trademark.
[54:17.560 --> 54:18.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's kind of...
[54:18.140 --> 54:18.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's kosher, too.
[54:18.800 --> 54:19.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's kind of cool.
[54:20.240 --> 54:23.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: And we also have gourmet instant coffee.
[54:23.980 --> 54:26.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: 100% pure coffee in a little tiny package here.
[54:27.440 --> 54:29.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Manufactured by Mark Lynn Industries of Bremen, Georgia.
[54:30.920 --> 54:32.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, okay.
[54:33.980 --> 54:34.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh...
[54:34.700 --> 54:36.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're supposed to empty this into a cup and add boiling water.
[54:36.820 --> 54:38.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: How do you get the boiling water out of an MRE?
[54:38.820 --> 54:41.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's the one thing you have to add to the MRE.
[54:41.520 --> 54:43.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: How do you get boiling water in a nuclear fallout shelter?
[54:43.560 --> 54:44.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you have to add water to it.
[54:45.700 --> 54:47.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: The later models...
[54:47.300 --> 54:48.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, this is kind of interesting.
[54:49.060 --> 54:52.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Each year, they actually release a different upgraded MRE.
[54:52.940 --> 54:53.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Got a napkin here.
[54:53.820 --> 54:55.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Looks kind of like European toilet paper.
[54:55.500 --> 54:56.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh...
[54:57.480 --> 54:58.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: They act...
[54:58.980 --> 55:02.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, the older MREs actually gave you a little bit of toilet paper as well.
[55:02.780 --> 55:03.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just a little bit, huh?
[55:04.020 --> 55:06.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you had a few squares folded over.
[55:06.080 --> 55:09.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's going to be the most difficult thing to deal with down there.
[55:09.380 --> 55:10.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, okay.
[55:10.080 --> 55:11.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: We have a little package of pepper here.
[55:11.620 --> 55:11.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Mm-hmm.
[55:11.660 --> 55:13.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: It contains dustless black pepper.
[55:13.860 --> 55:14.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bacteria treated.
[55:15.460 --> 55:16.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Gee whiz.
[55:16.720 --> 55:17.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[55:17.320 --> 55:18.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: And one, uh...
[55:18.140 --> 55:19.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: A couple of final packets here.
[55:19.900 --> 55:21.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: We've got, uh...
[55:21.200 --> 55:22.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Looks like iodized salt.
[55:22.640 --> 55:24.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Also courtesy of the Bach Corporation.
[55:24.440 --> 55:25.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: And a moist towelette.
[55:25.380 --> 55:25.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh!
[55:25.740 --> 55:28.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was worried that they wouldn't include the moist towelettes, but...
[55:28.060 --> 55:30.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: You must be cleanly on the front lines.
[55:30.560 --> 55:32.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, now that's the first thing here.
[55:32.200 --> 55:32.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[55:32.580 --> 55:36.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and the reason we're racing through this is because we only have about a minute or two to, uh, go through this entire MRE.
[55:37.200 --> 55:38.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: So let's see what else we have in here.
[55:38.580 --> 55:39.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, this looks pretty tempting.
[55:39.680 --> 55:40.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a cardboard box.
[55:41.340 --> 55:42.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Chicken breast filet.
[55:42.800 --> 55:43.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, they spell filet wrong.
[55:43.860 --> 55:45.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Isn't it only one L in filet?
[55:45.420 --> 55:45.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, not sure.
[55:45.920 --> 55:46.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is a filet.
[55:46.820 --> 55:47.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[55:47.420 --> 55:50.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: With rib meat seasoned, chunked, and formed, and grilled.
[55:51.440 --> 55:51.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh.
[55:52.000 --> 55:53.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they're fairly explicit.
[55:53.140 --> 55:54.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is really disgusting looking.
[55:55.080 --> 55:56.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's, it's, it's just, uh...
[55:56.280 --> 55:57.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: How would you describe this?
[55:57.720 --> 56:01.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a, a piece with a filet in it, which you have to add water to it.
[56:01.500 --> 56:02.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Which I believe is a filet in it.
[56:02.760 --> 56:03.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: It could be anything.
[56:03.640 --> 56:05.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, if you squeeze a little, it's, it's kind of mushy.
[56:05.300 --> 56:07.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's like someone's internal organ, just like...
[56:08.020 --> 56:09.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, I'm going to just give that back to you.
[56:09.740 --> 56:10.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, thank you.
[56:10.360 --> 56:11.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't really want to have that near me.
[56:11.640 --> 56:12.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's fairly tasty.
[56:12.200 --> 56:13.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, what else do we have in here?
[56:14.200 --> 56:15.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, this looks kind of nice.
[56:15.420 --> 56:16.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: A fudge brownie cake.
[56:17.140 --> 56:20.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Which looks exactly the same as that internal organ I just handed you.
[56:21.040 --> 56:23.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, it doesn't really say anything else other than that.
[56:23.160 --> 56:24.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can't see any of this.
[56:24.140 --> 56:27.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's, it's all in this plastic wrapping.
[56:27.600 --> 56:28.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Vacuum packed.
[56:28.460 --> 56:28.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Re-strap.
[56:28.920 --> 56:29.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Alright.
[56:30.180 --> 56:31.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, what do we have here?
[56:31.680 --> 56:33.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Beverage base powder lemon lime.
[56:33.900 --> 56:35.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: What in the world are we supposed to do with this?
[56:35.280 --> 56:37.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, you add it to half a canteen of water.
[56:37.980 --> 56:38.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[56:38.480 --> 56:39.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you drink it.
[56:39.600 --> 56:49.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, uh, if you continue to read the instructions there, uh, you're supposed to let your chemically treated water from some unknown water source sit for half an hour before you add the lemon lime.
[56:49.440 --> 56:53.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Dissolve contents of the 34 gram envelope in 12 ounces, half canteen cup of cold water.
[56:53.920 --> 56:57.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Allow water just chemically purified to stand 30 minutes before adding beverage powder.
[56:57.580 --> 56:57.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[56:58.600 --> 57:00.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, these are, these are words to live by.
[57:00.400 --> 57:00.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Alright.
[57:01.520 --> 57:02.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, that's not over yet.
[57:02.860 --> 57:03.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's still more.
[57:03.620 --> 57:04.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: We have grape jelly.
[57:04.660 --> 57:04.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[57:04.920 --> 57:08.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I guess that's one of the needs of life, uh, nice package of grape.
[57:08.360 --> 57:09.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, there's something else still.
[57:09.900 --> 57:10.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: That works with the jelly.
[57:11.240 --> 57:11.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[57:11.620 --> 57:13.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: And this is the last, uh, package.
[57:13.600 --> 57:13.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[57:15.520 --> 57:15.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Crackers!
[57:16.620 --> 57:20.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wow, a big wax thing of crackers.
[57:20.840 --> 57:21.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Can't see the crackers either.
[57:21.900 --> 57:22.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: You just see the package.
[57:24.220 --> 57:25.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm looking forward to 2000.
[57:25.640 --> 57:26.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'll tell you that right now.
[57:26.940 --> 57:27.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh...
[57:27.480 --> 57:32.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, these aren't, this isn't your only option for feeding, but, uh, this came out of my own little personal store.
[57:32.500 --> 57:34.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Where, where does one get MREs around here?
[57:34.240 --> 57:35.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, you don't.
[57:35.720 --> 57:43.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, basically, most of the major suppliers, uh, that you can get MREs from, uh, their warehouses are cleaned out.
[57:43.500 --> 57:44.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because of 2000?
[57:44.340 --> 57:47.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because of people panicking over 2000, and you can expect more of that.
[57:47.680 --> 57:51.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: We can already write our, our, our obituaries now, because we're too late.
[57:51.700 --> 57:55.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: We haven't been doing this since 1960, so, uh, all right.
[57:55.300 --> 57:57.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I've already accepted it, so, so there.
[57:58.480 --> 58:06.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, uh, Micah and Kerry, I want to thank you for joining us and, and talking about the whole Mitnick case and, and the, uh, implications thereof.
[58:07.060 --> 58:07.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[58:08.480 --> 58:11.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, well, uh, we'll be in touch, I guess, over the next, uh, couple of weeks.
[58:12.520 --> 58:16.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, until then, this is Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[58:18.380 --> 58:19.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Still wrapping that up, huh?
[58:19.580 --> 58:22.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yes, uh, final words, I suppose, would be bon appetit.
[58:22.720 --> 58:24.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, well, I'm going to watch, uh, see if you actually eat that.
[58:24.780 --> 58:25.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'll report back next week.
[58:26.620 --> 58:29.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: See if, uh, you actually, uh, fulfill that promise.
[58:29.700 --> 58:30.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Until then, this is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[58:30.960 --> 58:39.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: We'll have more details on year 2000 probably next week, as well as any, uh, changes in the Mitnick case and any other case, any other, uh, bits of injustice that are being passed around.
[58:40.180 --> 58:43.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: So until then, stay free and be technologically aware.
[58:43.500 --> 58:43.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good night.