Off The Hook - 1999-02-16

[00:03.040 --> 00:05.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: How Did This Happen Anyway?
[00:05.540 --> 00:06.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: by Carla Richmond.
[00:07.430 --> 00:08.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Janice K.
[00:08.800 --> 00:09.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bryant.
[00:09.430 --> 00:12.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: For a good time, meet me on the Blue Light Corner between 7 p.m.
[00:12.920 --> 00:23.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: and midnight, Thursday, February 25th, for an evening of passion, sex, and romantic love with the Women of the Blue Light Corner, an anthology of writings from black women.
[00:24.120 --> 00:27.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's Thursday, February 25th, 7 p.m.
[00:27.900 --> 00:28.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: to midnight.
[00:28.900 --> 00:31.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Blue Light Corner is a marathon special.
[00:31.360 --> 00:37.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: You'll hear it here on listener-sponsored WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[00:37.700 --> 00:38.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: See you on the corner.
[00:44.350 --> 00:49.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's just about 8 o'clock, which means it's time for another edition of Off the Hook.
[00:55.350 --> 01:06.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cost I'm
[01:11.760 --> 01:17.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: for the best expect of worst I hope that's understood One ding-a-need, no!
[03:22.540 --> 03:24.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[03:24.120 --> 03:27.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein with another edition of Off the Hook.
[03:27.820 --> 03:33.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Coming to you live this week, as we do every week, actually, between the hours of 8 and 9 p.m.
[03:33.460 --> 03:36.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, we won't be here next week because next week is a fundraising week.
[03:36.220 --> 03:38.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, we will be back the week after that.
[03:40.940 --> 03:51.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I had initially thought that we weren't going to be here this week, so unfortunately I went out and caught the flu, thinking that I wouldn't have to worry about this week, but, oh well, you know, we all make our mistakes.
[03:53.860 --> 03:58.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, we have a lot of interesting things to talk about tonight.
[03:58.580 --> 03:59.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Porkchop is here.
[03:59.560 --> 04:00.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, world.
[04:00.300 --> 04:00.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: How are you doing?
[04:01.140 --> 04:04.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Fluent from New Jersey, and how are things going with you?
[04:05.600 --> 04:06.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Everything's normal.
[04:06.420 --> 04:08.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Real audio is working, even though you're here.
[04:08.480 --> 04:08.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: That is right.
[04:09.180 --> 04:09.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[04:09.880 --> 04:11.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's certainly a relief.
[04:12.300 --> 04:15.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anything we have to look forward to in the future, as far as the real audio world?
[04:16.060 --> 04:21.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, actually, Off the Hook may be broadcasting in coming weeks on MPEG-3 streaming.
[04:21.760 --> 04:22.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ooh!
[04:22.500 --> 04:26.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is supposedly higher quality than real audio.
[04:26.440 --> 04:27.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're just testing it out now.
[04:27.600 --> 04:29.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: There might be a server right now doing it.
[04:29.680 --> 04:30.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not sure.
[04:30.720 --> 04:35.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can go into Pound Off the Hook on EFnet and ask if there's an MPEG server.
[04:35.620 --> 04:36.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's IRC, obviously.
[04:36.560 --> 04:37.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[04:39.060 --> 04:44.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: If it works out well, maybe next week and weeks in the future, we'll have an MPEG server.
[04:44.400 --> 04:45.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, not next week.
[04:45.340 --> 04:45.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not next week.
[04:46.000 --> 04:46.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: The week after that.
[04:46.640 --> 04:47.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[04:47.180 --> 04:47.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sorry.
[04:48.360 --> 04:51.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if it works out well, we'll have it for weeks to come.
[04:52.280 --> 04:57.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we'll keep real audio, by the way, just for all the real audio people and people who can't...
[04:57.440 --> 05:01.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: But MP3, that'll allow you to listen in, I guess, FM quality.
[05:01.960 --> 05:02.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[05:02.620 --> 05:02.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Supposedly.
[05:03.340 --> 05:03.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: I haven't heard it for myself.
[05:03.780 --> 05:06.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which is exactly the way they sound over the FM airwaves.
[05:06.380 --> 05:07.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was the idea behind real audio as well.
[05:08.320 --> 05:08.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, no.
[05:08.920 --> 05:10.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not really exactly the way it sounds.
[05:11.340 --> 05:12.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's close.
[05:12.300 --> 05:13.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's close, but it's not exact.
[05:13.740 --> 05:18.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Although, the early days of real audio, I remember things were just so incredible.
[05:18.380 --> 05:19.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was worse than AM.
[05:19.260 --> 05:20.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was worse than shortwave.
[05:20.080 --> 05:21.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we were happy to get anything back then.
[05:21.680 --> 05:22.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's true.
[05:22.420 --> 05:22.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's true.
[05:22.920 --> 05:25.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I was overjoyed with the real audio version 2.
[05:25.420 --> 05:29.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: We had low expectations, but now we're a little bit fussier, and we won't tolerate anything that doesn't sound perfect.
[05:30.760 --> 05:31.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[05:32.240 --> 05:32.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[05:32.600 --> 05:34.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I don't sound very perfect tonight, that's for sure.
[05:34.600 --> 05:38.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't feel very perfect, but we're going to try and get through this as best we can.
[05:39.100 --> 05:40.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have a couple of stories.
[05:40.700 --> 05:43.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have a special guest on the line who will be joining in a moment.
[05:44.200 --> 05:48.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, of course, we're going to take phone calls at 212-209-2900.
[05:48.900 --> 05:51.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: A bit of a nightmare over at Hallmark.
[05:51.540 --> 05:58.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if people heard about this one, but apparently there are a bunch of valentines that got to be public.
[05:59.060 --> 06:06.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, they have some sort of an online service where people can send valentines back and forth on their website.
[06:07.140 --> 06:11.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: They weren't aware, however, that these little valentines actually had an audience of millions.
[06:11.820 --> 06:12.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[06:12.460 --> 06:26.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: A programming error at hallmark.com allowed anyone with a computer and some curiosity to search the website for private love notes and, in many cases, the sender's name, home, and email addresses and place of employment.
[06:26.420 --> 06:28.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is just about as bad as it can get.
[06:28.420 --> 06:40.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: The security breach surprised customers and executives at the Kansas City-based company, which this week scrambled to modify the computer program after the Kansas City Star reported the problem.
[06:40.720 --> 06:43.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Technicians have since deleted all of the old messages.
[06:44.040 --> 06:48.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: A hallmark official said the problem involved only greetings sent a year or more ago.
[06:49.540 --> 06:53.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know how much consolation that is for people that sent those a year or more ago.
[06:53.620 --> 06:58.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was a programming error, company spokeswoman Julie O'Dell said.
[06:59.080 --> 07:01.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: We certainly are committed to providing privacy.
[07:02.380 --> 07:03.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: We just aren't very good at it.
[07:03.920 --> 07:10.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: The recipient of a Cyber Hallmark greeting card first gets an email from the company, including a password.
[07:10.620 --> 07:13.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then he or she clicks on a web address to view the card.
[07:13.800 --> 07:19.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: But until this week, all those messages were available to anyone who used the site's search engine, according to the newspaper.
[07:19.360 --> 07:30.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: That means if the word bear was typed, for example, Hallmark's computer would have given you a list of webpages including that word, including one page featuring a sweet message from teddy bear to his honey.
[07:31.860 --> 07:36.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had no idea, said Gary Harders of Chicago, who sent one of the cards to his wife.
[07:36.660 --> 07:37.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank God.
[07:37.880 --> 07:39.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: I assumed it was private.
[07:40.020 --> 07:44.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: It defeats the whole purpose of sending someone a personal card if everybody and his brother is going to get a hold of it.
[07:44.580 --> 07:45.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: It could be embarrassing.
[07:45.980 --> 07:50.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, folks, when you do things on the World Wide Web, there's a reason why they call it the World Wide Web.
[07:51.000 --> 07:52.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because it goes all over the place.
[07:52.820 --> 08:07.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if you think for one moment that your privacy is guaranteed on a computer that's attached to a device which allows it to be read by anybody from Pakistan to Brooklyn, well, you've got some waking up to them.
[08:08.620 --> 08:11.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Ms. Odell said she had no idea how many people might have clicked through the greetings.
[08:12.020 --> 08:18.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: This new system has built in a new standard to ensure this kind of thing doesn't happen again, at least not in exactly the same way.
[08:19.860 --> 08:21.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't want a lot of people worried.
[08:22.880 --> 08:25.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: None of the recent electronic greetings were in that file.
[08:27.580 --> 08:29.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: You won't have to worry for another year, probably.
[08:31.080 --> 08:34.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: According to the stars, some of the messages were obviously not meant for mass consumption.
[08:34.740 --> 08:36.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here are a few choice ones.
[08:37.480 --> 08:40.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Gary and I have been having secret cyber sex via computer.
[08:42.600 --> 08:46.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've seen you swing a sledgehammer and the way your muscles ripple is amazing.
[08:47.900 --> 08:50.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: You deserve an extra foot massage tonight.
[08:52.000 --> 08:58.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Another writer emailed an intimate message and a photo of a flower to a woman friend trying to entice her into a romantic rendezvous.
[08:58.820 --> 09:01.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: You will have the greatest time you've had in 15 years.
[09:01.840 --> 09:06.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: He assured his friend, the must, the other man in her life persuaded her to stay home with him and their children instead.
[09:09.900 --> 09:11.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think of the children.
[09:12.360 --> 09:13.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: For God's sake.
[09:16.240 --> 09:19.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is from today's abcnews.com.
[09:22.120 --> 09:26.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: It really messed up a Mitnick story a few weeks ago, but then they quickly corrected it after people started complaining.
[09:28.800 --> 09:33.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: They posted the same old thing about how he was in prison for credit card fraud.
[09:34.740 --> 09:39.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think when the fans started up, they quickly replaced that paragraph, which I, you know, I have a problem with that.
[09:40.280 --> 09:41.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's called revisionism.
[09:41.760 --> 09:46.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, that's, that's changing something that happened rather than correcting it.
[09:47.720 --> 09:56.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it'd be nice if we can go back and, and correct the July 4th, 1994 story by John Markoff in the New York Times and make all the things he said that were wrong into things that were right.
[09:56.800 --> 10:00.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: But then, you know, people have still read the things that were wrong.
[10:00.940 --> 10:03.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're just not, uh, not there anymore.
[10:05.080 --> 10:12.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's like I was watching, um, that, that program, Saturday Night Live, you know, that, that, that thing they have on Saturday nights that's live.
[10:13.940 --> 10:19.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you remember the one that they had when, when Sinead O'Connor was on and she ripped up a picture of the Pope and everybody got upset?
[10:19.280 --> 10:20.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I remember hearing about that.
[10:20.460 --> 10:20.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[10:20.900 --> 10:25.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I was watching that episode yesterday and I was looking forward to seeing this because I'd never seen it before.
[10:25.400 --> 10:25.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you know what?
[10:25.920 --> 10:26.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: She didn't rip it up.
[10:26.640 --> 10:29.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: She, she held up a picture of a kid instead and didn't rip it up.
[10:29.300 --> 10:30.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the audience applauded.
[10:30.240 --> 10:31.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I was like, wait a minute.
[10:31.740 --> 10:32.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know this happened.
[10:33.040 --> 10:33.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is the same show.
[10:34.380 --> 10:35.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: How in the world did they do this?
[10:36.040 --> 10:37.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Turns out what happened?
[10:37.240 --> 10:38.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because I asked on, on, on the Internet.
[10:39.160 --> 10:41.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's where you get the information is on the Internet.
[10:41.780 --> 10:47.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I found out very quickly that they substituted the dress rehearsal for all the repeats so that it wouldn't defend anybody in the future.
[10:48.100 --> 10:49.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a live show.
[10:49.340 --> 10:50.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's a live show.
[10:50.460 --> 10:52.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're supposed to keep it the way it was when it aired live.
[10:53.280 --> 10:54.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Instead, they changed it.
[10:54.480 --> 11:02.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: They took out the thing that made them look bad, the thing that was unpopular, and replaced it with something that was completely different.
[11:02.720 --> 11:03.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Remember the book 1984?
[11:04.200 --> 11:04.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
[11:04.880 --> 11:06.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sort of thinking about that.
[11:06.000 --> 11:10.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: They sort of changed a couple of things when they found out that it wasn't a sunny day after all.
[11:11.180 --> 11:11.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[11:13.120 --> 11:15.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it was, uh, disturbing, to say the least.
[11:15.740 --> 11:18.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: If anybody has a tape of the original, I'd sure like to talk to you.
[11:26.420 --> 11:27.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Over to the Pentagon.
[11:27.380 --> 11:30.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is the news from abcnews.com I was, uh, alluding to.
[11:30.880 --> 11:43.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff looked on as Pentagon cyber warriors clicked away at their laptops and showed how would-be terrorists could find his son's home address.
[11:47.320 --> 11:48.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: And my...
[11:48.770 --> 12:04.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Army General Henry Shelton then got a demonstration of how a skilled adversary might combine publicly available biographies and contractor information on military websites with a few well-placed phone calls to pin down the dates of highly classified nuclear exercises.
[12:06.290 --> 12:25.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: The classified briefing held in Shelton's Pentagon office, his address isn't on here, was then given to other generals and, uh, admirals as well as, uh, senior civilians, generating a momentum that has led the military to order a massive scrub of its vast network of Internet sites.
[12:25.820 --> 12:41.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Deputy Defense Secretary John Hammer said military websites offered adversaries a potent instrument to obtain, correlate, and evaluate an unprecedented volume of aggregated information that could, when combined with other sources of information, endanger Department of Defense personnel and their families.
[12:42.420 --> 12:43.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know what else?
[12:43.220 --> 12:44.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: The phone book could do that.
[12:44.240 --> 12:45.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Libraries can do that.
[12:45.160 --> 12:46.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, people talking in the street can do that.
[12:46.800 --> 12:48.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: I thought that was the definition of the Internet.
[12:48.380 --> 12:51.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you know, I don't know what they, what exactly they, they want.
[12:51.640 --> 12:54.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: They want us to redefine free speech, I guess.
[12:54.220 --> 12:56.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Just keep everything that could possibly be used.
[12:56.720 --> 13:01.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, yeah, you know, if you give someone's name out, maybe all the people in the Pentagon, their name should be kept secret.
[13:02.010 --> 13:06.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: That way their families won't be at risk from some, you know, some terrorist someplace.
[13:06.120 --> 13:07.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: And how many times has this happened?
[13:07.960 --> 13:13.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: How many times have the families of Pentagon people, and I'm, I'm not counting in films.
[13:13.420 --> 13:15.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: I understand there's a problem in films.
[13:15.200 --> 13:20.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are lots of terrorists that are doing bad things in fiction, but this is real life.
[13:20.770 --> 13:22.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: In real life, how many times has it happened?
[13:23.380 --> 13:30.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I know a lot of us have trouble separating the two, but it's just, um, an important question needs to be asked.
[13:30.300 --> 13:31.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's classify the name of Bill Clinton.
[13:32.740 --> 13:33.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: That would be something, wouldn't it?
[13:34.180 --> 13:35.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I just can't get him there.
[13:35.540 --> 13:45.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Instituted December 7th, the policy change has touched off a debate, as some critics argue the Pentagon went too far in restricting the information it makes public on the Internet.
[13:46.840 --> 13:57.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: In response, defense and national security officials have become more willing to discuss on condition of not being identified by name, the nature of the risk their detailed review of military websites revealed.
[13:58.540 --> 14:09.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: There was information that was potentially tactically useful to an adversary, the kind of thing where if someone really wanted to do harm to your personnel, it could facilitate them in undertaking an attack.
[14:10.730 --> 14:12.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Boy, there's a lot of clauses in that sentence.
[14:12.790 --> 14:16.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: It said one senior defense official working on Internet security issues.
[14:18.510 --> 14:24.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Another national security official called the briefing's eye-openers that startled commanders.
[14:27.120 --> 14:31.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: The briefing stemmed from work done in 1997 to 1998 by Pentagon red teams.
[14:31.920 --> 14:34.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Those are the people that broke in 250,000 times, supposedly.
[14:35.560 --> 14:39.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: A term associated with a notional enemy force in war games.
[14:40.720 --> 14:47.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Team members tried to learn how much mischief they could do by skillfully scanning military websites without any sophisticated hacking.
[14:48.340 --> 15:05.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: They showed Shelton himself, a former special operations specialist, how his own biography posted on a military website combined with non-military databases could quickly lead a terrorist to the home address You know, I've got a level of people here.
[15:05.480 --> 15:08.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, if someone really wants to do something, they'll find a way to do it.
[15:09.360 --> 15:10.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no question about that.
[15:10.680 --> 15:17.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: If someone really wants to target the family of an employee of some agency, they will find a way to do this.
[15:17.920 --> 15:19.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: The web is not your enemy.
[15:19.770 --> 15:20.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Internet is not your enemy.
[15:20.860 --> 15:22.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Free information is not your enemy.
[15:24.900 --> 15:27.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unfortunately, we're making a lot of new enemies here.
[15:29.740 --> 15:31.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyone see yesterday's Newsday?
[15:31.100 --> 15:33.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Look at this front page headline here, the dark side of the net.
[15:35.010 --> 15:38.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the most important thing to Newsday yesterday, the dark side of the net.
[15:39.240 --> 15:45.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Threats, accusations, vicious gossip, the small but growing world of cyber-smearing.
[15:46.170 --> 15:47.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Cyber-smearing.
[15:47.400 --> 15:52.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they have a story in here about this kid.
[15:52.360 --> 16:04.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Alexander Looney, a 15-year-old Eagle Scout, didn't even have an online account when his scout leader angrily confronted him about sending an email threatening to sodomize the man's son and rape the wife of another scout leader.
[16:05.120 --> 16:05.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-oh.
[16:05.580 --> 16:05.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[16:07.690 --> 16:09.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, guess what?
[16:09.240 --> 16:13.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Someone apparently used his name on an email service.
[16:14.080 --> 16:16.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: And now, this is the thing that really gets me.
[16:17.840 --> 16:21.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: His family, four years later, his family still doesn't know who did it.
[16:21.860 --> 16:28.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they're locked in an expensive, long-running lawsuit seeking compensation from Prodigy for the humiliation they say they've suffered.
[16:28.270 --> 16:29.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, my God.
[16:29.270 --> 16:32.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, these people have got to be the dumbest, stupid idiots.
[16:32.720 --> 16:34.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I say this with all due respect, all right?
[16:34.660 --> 16:37.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not trying to, you know, start legal action here.
[16:37.540 --> 16:38.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, I mean, come on already.
[16:38.980 --> 16:40.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is the Internet.
[16:40.660 --> 16:43.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: These are, you know, names being bandied about.
[16:44.340 --> 16:46.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Lawsuits don't solve things like this.
[16:46.860 --> 16:48.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: They just don't.
[16:48.560 --> 16:55.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's really no reason to have excess litigation every time someone says something that you don't like on the Internet.
[16:55.940 --> 16:58.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: You basically have to correct the record and say, no, that wasn't me.
[16:58.510 --> 17:01.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's very easy for anybody to say that you're anybody on the net.
[17:01.600 --> 17:02.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the nature of the net.
[17:02.920 --> 17:08.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Trying to sue people and make it, make everything work out that way.
[17:09.770 --> 17:14.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's using old-fashioned tactics in a newfangled world.
[17:14.290 --> 17:16.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they just don't work, as I'm sure they're learning now.
[17:17.420 --> 17:20.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the whole article is interesting.
[17:20.800 --> 17:25.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: It goes on about how this is an increasing problem, how people are being nastier and nastier.
[17:25.480 --> 17:27.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because the net is becoming bigger and bigger.
[17:27.360 --> 17:28.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: More people are joining.
[17:29.240 --> 17:30.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not like a small town anymore.
[17:30.300 --> 17:31.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like a big city.
[17:31.160 --> 17:33.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And in a big city, you have murders and rapes and things like that.
[17:33.530 --> 17:35.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's the same thing that's going on in cyberspace.
[17:35.940 --> 17:36.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, okay.
[17:37.140 --> 17:37.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: But you know what?
[17:37.880 --> 17:38.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not the same thing.
[17:38.840 --> 17:39.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's different.
[17:39.320 --> 17:40.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's cyberspace.
[17:40.860 --> 17:42.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: The only thing that's the same are the penalties.
[17:43.030 --> 17:44.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you just refer to the Internet as cyberspace?
[17:44.960 --> 17:47.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm using their lexicon here because that's...
[17:48.480 --> 17:50.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had to, like, demote myself to their level.
[17:50.940 --> 17:51.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're getting to you.
[17:51.750 --> 17:53.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am starting to think that.
[17:53.880 --> 17:55.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's not a good thing.
[17:56.270 --> 17:58.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, that's a brief look at the news for this week.
[17:58.900 --> 18:00.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's take a look at the telephone over here.
[18:00.900 --> 18:06.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have with us on the phone, from an undisclosed location, a hacker named Bronc.
[18:06.200 --> 18:06.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bronc, are you there?
[18:07.340 --> 18:08.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yep, I'm right here.
[18:08.240 --> 18:08.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: How you doing?
[18:09.100 --> 18:09.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm alright.
[18:09.660 --> 18:10.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: How you guys doing tonight?
[18:10.540 --> 18:11.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're doing pretty good.
[18:11.320 --> 18:16.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're just frustrated with the overall stupidity of most of the things we've talked about so far.
[18:17.270 --> 18:17.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've been listening.
[18:17.880 --> 18:24.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, people who have been following the hacker world in the last few months, your name might ring a bell for them.
[18:24.770 --> 18:33.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're the person that has been accused of hacking Chinese websites throughout China and really incurring their wrath.
[18:33.770 --> 18:35.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that an accurate statement?
[18:35.820 --> 18:36.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, pretty much.
[18:37.120 --> 18:38.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: They've been getting pretty mad at me.
[18:38.540 --> 18:42.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've been messing with some of their websites and some of their firewalls.
[18:42.030 --> 18:48.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's more of a pie in the face thing than any real damage being done.
[18:48.720 --> 18:58.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, we learned pretty recently that there was actually a bulletin issued by the Chinese authorities to look out for anything coming from you.
[18:59.010 --> 19:00.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that a fair way of saying it?
[19:02.440 --> 19:04.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, that's pretty much.
[19:04.200 --> 19:10.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was like the way I see it, some sort of an internal memo that was sent around.
[19:10.980 --> 19:13.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I was given a copy of it.
[19:14.340 --> 19:15.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not so internal then.
[19:15.980 --> 19:16.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, not anymore.
[19:17.720 --> 19:20.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: What kind of people have seen the memo so far?
[19:22.510 --> 19:23.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not very many people.
[19:23.990 --> 19:25.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I'm not talking about the hacker community.
[19:25.860 --> 19:27.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm talking about who was it intended for.
[19:29.240 --> 19:37.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: As far as I can tell, to people in the Public Security Bureau Computer Monitoring Department.
[19:38.490 --> 19:40.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: I guess they have them all over China.
[19:40.470 --> 19:44.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who, I guess, monitor computer and Internet use.
[19:45.600 --> 19:46.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have it in front of you?
[19:47.040 --> 19:47.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, I sure do.
[19:48.300 --> 19:52.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know you can't read Chinese, but we had a cursory translation made before.
[19:52.820 --> 19:52.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[19:53.320 --> 19:56.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can read the brief translation over here.
[19:57.790 --> 20:00.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: It says, the Internet has both good and bad elements.
[20:01.010 --> 20:10.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: On the one hand, it fosters economic development and helps China build a social, spiritual civilization and socialism with Chinese characteristics.
[20:10.710 --> 20:15.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: On the other hand, the Internet is a source of spiritual pollution that can be used by...
[20:17.100 --> 20:17.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: the agents of the United States to spread peaceful evolution.
[20:17.620 --> 20:17.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-oh.
[20:17.730 --> 20:19.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think someone stepped on you there.
[20:19.600 --> 20:21.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Pick up where you said spiritual pollution.
[20:23.880 --> 20:24.400]  Um...
[20:24.400 --> 20:25.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um...
[20:25.380 --> 20:25.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[20:26.210 --> 20:34.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: And helps China build a social, spiritual civilization and socialism with the Chinese characteristics.
[20:35.820 --> 20:43.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: It says, on the other hand, the Internet is a source of spiritual pollution that can be used by agents of the United States to spread peaceful evolution.
[20:44.820 --> 20:45.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um...
[20:45.360 --> 20:53.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: We must be on the guard against this type of foreign subversion and actively seek to prevent the intrusion of this type of destructive elements into China.
[20:53.710 --> 21:00.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: It is difficult to identify whether this subversion originates from the United States, but we cannot assume that it does not.
[21:00.400 --> 21:15.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because these so-called hacker groups, or they call them black eyes, often work in concert with Chinese counter-revolutionaries to attempt to overthrow the Chinese Communist Party and the people's democratic dictatorship in China.
[21:15.660 --> 21:17.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it has, uh...
[21:17.120 --> 21:24.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: For example, one group calling itself, uh, LOU, a legion of the underground, has declared China, or declared war on China.
[21:25.130 --> 21:32.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, the true affiliation of this group are unknown, although they have successfully carried out an information warfare attack against networks in...
[21:32.530 --> 21:36.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it lists, um, uh, some networks that we've messed with.
[21:36.600 --> 21:42.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it says, uh, they have allegedly been criticized by other so-called hacker groups for their threats against China.
[21:43.010 --> 21:49.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: All of our Public Security Bureau computer monitoring department units must be vigilant against attacks from abroad.
[21:50.450 --> 22:00.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: And here's where it worries me, because it says, uh, any communications that contain the names of the underground, Bronk Buster, or Zykon must be reported to the relevant office in Beijing.
[22:01.640 --> 22:04.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then it says, further directives on this issue will follow.
[22:05.140 --> 22:08.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that sure sounds ominous, that further directives will follow.
[22:08.450 --> 22:08.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[22:08.840 --> 22:11.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm trying to get some of those further directives and see what they say.
[22:11.760 --> 22:14.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think they might send a death squad over or something?
[22:14.460 --> 22:14.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: I hope not.
[22:15.220 --> 22:16.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sounds kind of ominous there.
[22:16.320 --> 22:17.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, what's this black eyes?
[22:17.460 --> 22:18.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Where did that come from?
[22:18.400 --> 22:22.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: I guess that's their term for, um, hacker groups.
[22:22.260 --> 22:22.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Black eyes?
[22:23.160 --> 22:23.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[22:23.450 --> 22:24.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's a great name.
[22:24.660 --> 22:24.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[22:25.360 --> 22:26.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they got a pine in the eye.
[22:26.480 --> 22:31.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I think they're the ones that wind up with the black eyes, though, to their integrity when their websites get hacked.
[22:31.500 --> 22:32.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the truth.
[22:32.260 --> 22:33.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, um, that's interesting.
[22:34.000 --> 22:39.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's gotta be kind of frightening when you have a nation of a billion people that, uh, supposedly is calling for, I don't know what they're calling for.
[22:40.120 --> 22:47.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I understand that, that you've learned that, uh, ambassadors to this country have been contacted by, by Chinese nationals.
[22:48.760 --> 22:49.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Any truth to that?
[22:49.420 --> 22:49.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[22:49.560 --> 23:05.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, the Chinese embassy and the Chinese consulate, consulates across the United States and some of them in Canada, have been calling people that I've been talking to, you know, various reporters or, uh, people in the computer security area, people I've had contact with.
[23:05.760 --> 23:13.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: They've been calling them and giving them the third degree, you know, wanting information about us, who we are, where we are.
[23:14.140 --> 23:20.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, wait, what you're saying is that if somebody interviews you, then a day or so later they get interrogated?
[23:20.920 --> 23:21.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mm-hmm.
[23:21.450 --> 23:21.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-oh.
[23:22.500 --> 23:22.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um...
[23:22.980 --> 23:23.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Who, who said this?
[23:24.060 --> 23:29.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mal McKay from, from Wired, he got four calls the day after he ran the first interview.
[23:29.060 --> 23:29.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, this is just great.
[23:30.040 --> 23:31.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm gonna get interrogated now by the Chinese.
[23:31.860 --> 23:32.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Isn't that nice?
[23:33.600 --> 23:33.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[23:34.020 --> 23:36.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: I gotta, I gotta check the itinerary before I come in here in the future.
[23:37.690 --> 23:38.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, boy.
[23:38.260 --> 23:38.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here they are now.
[23:39.220 --> 23:39.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
[23:39.480 --> 23:40.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's coming from China.
[23:40.480 --> 23:40.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
[23:40.720 --> 23:41.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: No question about it.
[23:41.640 --> 23:42.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's a China Carter ID.
[23:43.210 --> 23:43.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, boy.
[23:44.650 --> 23:44.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well...
[23:46.390 --> 23:46.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway.
[23:47.130 --> 23:47.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um...
[23:47.460 --> 23:47.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[23:47.860 --> 23:51.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, now, it must be kind of distressing now to see all this, all this reaction.
[23:51.840 --> 23:55.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: When you first started doing this, when, when the first Chinese...
[23:55.080 --> 23:56.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: First of all, why did you pick China?
[23:56.840 --> 24:00.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, it was kind of, uh, a spur of the moment thing.
[24:00.710 --> 24:05.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, when I first started in college, I had done some, uh, research and some papers on them.
[24:05.720 --> 24:08.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just because I was forced to, uh, write a paper on them.
[24:09.860 --> 24:11.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I learned what was going on over there.
[24:12.040 --> 24:17.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then, um, I read about their human rights site and the human rights, um, convention that was going on over there.
[24:19.140 --> 24:20.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I decided, well, this isn't right.
[24:21.220 --> 24:23.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: So we went in there and we changed the page around a little bit.
[24:23.840 --> 24:27.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I had no idea it'd be the, uh, the big impact that it was.
[24:29.180 --> 24:29.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh...
[24:29.560 --> 24:30.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was really shocking.
[24:30.620 --> 24:31.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[24:31.240 --> 24:31.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[24:31.450 --> 24:34.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell us about the page that, that got changed and what was changed in it.
[24:35.240 --> 24:43.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, initially there, they had a, uh, a human rights site they'd put up, which basically said, you know, um, there are no human rights violations here in China.
[24:43.600 --> 24:45.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the Chinese government, you know, supports human rights.
[24:45.900 --> 24:49.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: They had a bunch of pictures of, you know, the happy children running around.
[24:49.040 --> 24:50.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was, it was a total bogus site.
[24:51.120 --> 24:53.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was like the Nazis saying, you know, hey, the Holocaust never happened.
[24:53.920 --> 24:54.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[24:54.360 --> 24:55.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Everything's good and fine over here.
[24:56.180 --> 24:56.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[24:56.660 --> 24:58.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I basically changed it saying, hey, that's BS.
[24:59.260 --> 25:00.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you know it.
[25:00.210 --> 25:05.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I provided some links to sites that provide truthful information on what's happening over there.
[25:05.640 --> 25:05.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[25:05.860 --> 25:06.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: What kind of response did that get?
[25:08.090 --> 25:09.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, from them?
[25:10.780 --> 25:14.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, that's when they started contacting people and looking for me.
[25:14.040 --> 25:18.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I have been contacted by the sites that I provided links to.
[25:19.180 --> 25:21.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they're all, they've all thanked me immensely.
[25:22.220 --> 25:22.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[25:22.450 --> 25:30.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: The human rights in China group in New York City, they say that one day that site was up, they had 5,000 more hits than they usually get.
[25:30.840 --> 25:33.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they continued that way for days after the hack.
[25:33.980 --> 25:34.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Really?
[25:34.380 --> 25:35.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: They, they were ecstatic.
[25:35.710 --> 25:40.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: They said they had more traffic in that week than they've had since their site has been up.
[25:40.380 --> 25:40.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[25:40.620 --> 25:41.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[25:41.460 --> 25:43.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: What, what kind of response from the, from the media did you get?
[25:44.900 --> 25:46.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, it was kind of shocking at first.
[25:46.880 --> 25:48.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I thought no one would really care.
[25:49.120 --> 25:51.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then I started getting floods of email.
[25:51.820 --> 25:55.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: From every, uh, every news group you can think of.
[25:55.760 --> 26:00.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: From Wired to ZDNN to, uh, uh, LA Times, Boston Globe.
[26:00.540 --> 26:03.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've been contacted by 60 Minutes in 2020.
[26:03.780 --> 26:04.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[26:04.210 --> 26:04.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[26:04.580 --> 26:05.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Everyone wants to know what's going on.
[26:06.060 --> 26:06.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[26:06.280 --> 26:09.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are they gonna do, are they gonna do a story, 60 Minutes, 2020, those people?
[26:09.980 --> 26:13.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, 60 Minutes is still, uh, researching it.
[26:13.420 --> 26:15.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: 2020 kind of backed off when they heard 60 Minutes was gonna do it.
[26:16.520 --> 26:19.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, 60 Minutes is the big kid on the block if you don't mess with them.
[26:20.020 --> 26:21.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, well that's, that's interesting.
[26:22.080 --> 26:28.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, uh, now, of the media coverage you got, how much of it demonized hackers and how much of it saw you as kind of a savior?
[26:30.100 --> 26:33.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, there were, there were two sides to the coverage, really.
[26:33.140 --> 26:36.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: There was one that was covering the, uh, uh, the hacktivist side of it.
[26:37.740 --> 26:40.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: That was, uh, it was portrayed in a really positive manner.
[26:41.060 --> 26:45.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then I, I saw just a few articles that were, you know, were saying, hey, well, he was wrong.
[26:45.760 --> 26:48.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, he basically censored people who were censoring other people.
[26:49.300 --> 26:52.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I guess people, some people were saying two wrongs that make a right.
[26:52.680 --> 26:54.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the majority of the response was positive.
[26:55.020 --> 26:55.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[26:55.680 --> 27:00.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: When, when you actually hacked the site, did you, uh, what did you do to the old stuff that was there?
[27:01.060 --> 27:02.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just, I just moved it.
[27:02.540 --> 27:03.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: You moved it.
[27:03.120 --> 27:06.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: You moved the index to like index.old and just replaced it.
[27:06.280 --> 27:07.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that said you didn't destroy anything?
[27:07.660 --> 27:07.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh no.
[27:08.580 --> 27:08.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[27:08.950 --> 27:10.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: And do you think that's an important part?
[27:10.860 --> 27:17.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, let's say, let's say something really hated like, you know, the Klan or the Nazi party, uh, people who hack those sites and people are hacking those sites.
[27:17.920 --> 27:18.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah.
[27:18.600 --> 27:22.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, do you think it's right to delete, uh, things like that if they're really offensive?
[27:22.740 --> 27:23.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or should that never happen?
[27:24.840 --> 27:26.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh no, I don't think you should destroy anything.
[27:27.900 --> 27:28.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh huh.
[27:28.320 --> 27:35.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: The great power of the Internet is that it lets one person possess the same power as, you know, a big world government.
[27:36.160 --> 27:38.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just, that's the Chinese, uh, hack proof.
[27:39.000 --> 27:44.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, one person and have put down the, you know, the, the, one of the biggest nations in the world.
[27:44.660 --> 27:45.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: It puts you on the same level with them.
[27:46.080 --> 27:46.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[27:46.670 --> 27:48.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, you're basically that.
[27:48.880 --> 27:51.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you really want to destroy things, you just vilify yourself.
[27:51.640 --> 27:54.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're that, you're that guy standing in front of their virtual tank, I guess.
[27:54.720 --> 27:54.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[27:54.980 --> 27:56.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's not a good image for that.
[27:57.590 --> 27:57.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting.
[27:58.340 --> 28:00.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, now, uh, let's, let's move ahead.
[28:00.320 --> 28:03.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, how many Chinese sites got hacked in total?
[28:03.420 --> 28:06.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, the total domains got taken down with three.
[28:07.120 --> 28:13.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: We got, um, human rights in China, or human rights, China.org, and ChinaTibet.org.
[28:13.820 --> 28:18.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we took down a, um, I guess it's a monitoring service.
[28:18.480 --> 28:23.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: They had one of their provinces, which, uh, controlled several of the firewalls.
[28:23.500 --> 28:24.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: They used to filter sites.
[28:25.300 --> 28:31.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we took down five of the firewalls by just doing the configuration file and telling it basically not to block any sites at all.
[28:31.900 --> 28:33.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, what effect did that have?
[28:33.780 --> 28:40.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it let the people in that province that were going through those firewalls, in or out through those proxy firewalls, to surf freely.
[28:41.760 --> 28:45.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, basically, you opened up the Internet to a bunch of, uh, Chinese people over there.
[28:45.740 --> 28:46.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[28:46.500 --> 28:47.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they could, they could go anywhere.
[28:47.780 --> 28:48.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, boy.
[28:48.600 --> 28:52.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, the, even the site, the sites that were hacked got blocked.
[28:52.760 --> 28:55.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, the people probably didn't even know it at the time.
[28:55.340 --> 29:02.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe, you know, I'm not sure how long they were up, because I didn't specify which ones were, and we didn't do anything except change the configuration file.
[29:02.480 --> 29:03.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, the walls were still running.
[29:04.630 --> 29:10.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I guess, until the time it took for them to find out which one had been tampered with, because people had, you know, free access.
[29:10.980 --> 29:13.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: But whether or not they knew about it, I'm not sure.
[29:13.500 --> 29:15.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: What would you say the state of their security is, in general?
[29:16.130 --> 29:17.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, extremely poor.
[29:17.780 --> 29:17.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[29:19.480 --> 29:23.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: It has to be one of the poorest of any, you know, powerful world government that I've seen.
[29:24.320 --> 29:25.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I guess you've seen a few.
[29:26.240 --> 29:26.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[29:28.350 --> 29:28.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[29:28.980 --> 29:29.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, uh...
[29:30.410 --> 29:40.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: With, with the ease that, that we did what we did over there, I'm surprised that, uh, people that have, like, unlimited resources, the CIA, the NSA, they're probably running the show over there.
[29:40.840 --> 29:41.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[29:41.360 --> 29:42.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: As far as the Chinese Internet is concerned.
[29:43.710 --> 29:46.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have things gotten better, though, since your attacks?
[29:46.800 --> 29:54.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, after my attack, the, um, that trial for Lin Hai came up about him sending the email addresses to the United States.
[29:55.220 --> 29:57.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, he was facing life in prison.
[29:57.360 --> 29:59.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: And after my hacks, the U.S.
[29:59.740 --> 30:01.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: State Department made a direct appeal on his behalf.
[30:02.740 --> 30:03.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[30:03.160 --> 30:04.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Once I mentioned him in my, my second hack.
[30:05.360 --> 30:07.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he ended up being only two years instead of life.
[30:08.180 --> 30:08.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[30:08.450 --> 30:08.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[30:08.580 --> 30:15.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: And now I just heard from, uh, uh, people in Shanghai that something unprecedented has happened.
[30:15.360 --> 30:19.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they granted him an appeal, which is, I guess, unheard of over there.
[30:19.900 --> 30:24.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, world attention does tend to, uh, make these unprecedented things happen.
[30:24.340 --> 30:24.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[30:24.900 --> 30:25.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: No question about that.
[30:25.540 --> 30:26.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm glad it's happening.
[30:26.720 --> 30:28.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm glad, you know, something positive came in this.
[30:28.800 --> 30:29.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[30:29.900 --> 30:31.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you're in touch with people over there in China?
[30:32.100 --> 30:33.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, a few people.
[30:33.340 --> 30:34.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And a few in the United States.
[30:34.760 --> 30:38.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: I try to keep a, uh, a semi-low profile on how to find me.
[30:39.720 --> 30:40.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[30:40.380 --> 30:50.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I've been contacted by various, uh, human rights groups that operate in the United States that have agents in, in China and people out of Singapore and Hong Kong.
[30:50.840 --> 30:51.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[30:51.220 --> 30:56.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Has anyone actually, apart from email, has anyone actually contacted you, rung your phone, knocked on your door?
[30:57.100 --> 30:57.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[30:57.620 --> 30:58.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Talk about this?
[30:58.520 --> 31:03.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, so no governmental agencies have actually, uh, uh, pursued this, apparently.
[31:03.680 --> 31:04.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[31:04.540 --> 31:04.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[31:05.000 --> 31:07.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I know our government knows who I am.
[31:07.480 --> 31:11.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I'm, I'm former military and I've worked with the FBI on cases in the past.
[31:12.320 --> 31:12.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[31:12.720 --> 31:14.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I know they know who I am.
[31:14.540 --> 31:14.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[31:15.560 --> 31:15.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[31:15.920 --> 31:17.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're just choosing not to act.
[31:18.000 --> 31:18.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[31:18.500 --> 31:18.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[31:18.710 --> 31:20.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: And apparently they weren't cooperating with the Chinese government either.
[31:21.020 --> 31:22.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: Otherwise they wouldn't have been searching so hard for me.
[31:23.860 --> 31:26.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Which kind of gives me a, you know, that warm feeling.
[31:27.450 --> 31:29.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, let's talk about what's happened since then.
[31:29.560 --> 31:36.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have the, uh, legions of the underground, uh, declaring their virtual war against, uh, China and Iraq.
[31:36.400 --> 31:40.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: And of course that led to, uh, condemnation by other hacker groups, 2600 included.
[31:40.400 --> 31:42.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, what was your involvement in that?
[31:43.680 --> 31:47.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, none really, until it came to, uh, defending the group.
[31:47.920 --> 31:57.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, it was one member, who's not even a leader, got a, just a wild hair, and started shooting his mouth off, and said it was from us.
[31:57.920 --> 32:01.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And in fact, no one at all else in the group had any idea what was going on.
[32:02.500 --> 32:08.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Even the, the night that he had a little press conference online, when all the members came in, they were asking what's going on.
[32:08.600 --> 32:11.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: And so he spent the rest of the time saying, you know, this isn't our position.
[32:12.330 --> 32:16.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: And once, uh, the large got a hold of it, they totally blew that out of proportion.
[32:16.260 --> 32:25.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: That and, uh, the National Post up in Toronto were interviewing people that, we didn't even know who they were, but they were saying they were us, and they were causing all kinds of destruction.
[32:25.540 --> 32:31.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then all the, uh, code keys from the bandwagon, and started taking out sites all over the place over there.
[32:32.180 --> 32:32.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh huh.
[32:32.900 --> 32:33.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: Like a domino effect.
[32:34.520 --> 32:34.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Really.
[32:36.210 --> 32:38.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, where do you, where do you draw the line though?
[32:38.880 --> 32:48.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you're hacking Chinese websites, but you're condemning, uh, people declaring this kind of virtual cyber war against, uh, against a particular nation.
[32:48.240 --> 32:49.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: So where is that line for you?
[32:50.460 --> 32:57.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, um, you know, the simple protests and stuff that I do, you know, do the one thing and it causes a great deal of attention.
[32:58.060 --> 32:59.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, you know, that's all right.
[32:59.900 --> 33:00.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: You don't destroy anything.
[33:00.820 --> 33:01.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: You don't harm anybody.
[33:02.550 --> 33:04.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, declaring war is something totally different.
[33:05.160 --> 33:07.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, war is something that the governments do.
[33:07.760 --> 33:15.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, you know, saying you're gonna go to war, a cyber war, where you're planning on destroying infrastructures and, and computer networks, that's so strong.
[33:16.820 --> 33:17.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[33:17.720 --> 33:33.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Plus, it, it, it allows us to play into the hands of all those people that say hackers are a real threat to, uh, to society because, you know, by, by destroying things, by being used as, as military tools, um, we can be seen in just that light.
[33:33.420 --> 33:34.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's, it's kind of frightening.
[33:34.620 --> 33:35.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that's the truth too.
[33:35.360 --> 33:36.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's definitely the truth.
[33:36.880 --> 33:41.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: It all comes down to, you know, what you know and what your ethics and what your morals are.
[33:41.760 --> 33:41.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh huh.
[33:42.860 --> 33:49.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: And so far, I think that, uh, the hacking community that stands today has done a pretty good job of portraying itself in a really positive light.
[33:49.780 --> 33:49.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[33:50.280 --> 33:53.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are there, are there other things going on besides, uh, besides China?
[33:54.220 --> 33:59.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, there's another project I'm working on, but I'd rather keep it kind of secret.
[34:00.060 --> 34:00.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[34:00.480 --> 34:04.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, and, uh, me and the LLU have, have parted ways.
[34:05.260 --> 34:06.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now they're going in one direction.
[34:07.000 --> 34:09.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: The stuff I'm trying to do is in the other direction.
[34:09.890 --> 34:12.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I thought it better that we, uh, we part.
[34:13.460 --> 34:13.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[34:13.780 --> 34:15.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is it a, a friendly split or?
[34:15.800 --> 34:16.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh huh.
[34:16.340 --> 34:16.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[34:16.720 --> 34:17.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're still friends, you know.
[34:18.100 --> 34:19.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: I still hang out with those guys every once in a while.
[34:19.880 --> 34:20.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: They come and see me.
[34:20.920 --> 34:21.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[34:21.420 --> 34:21.640]  You know.
[34:21.860 --> 34:23.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're still on speaking terms.
[34:25.430 --> 34:27.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's, uh, that's, that's good, I suppose.
[34:30.060 --> 34:30.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, interesting.
[34:31.140 --> 34:33.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: This whole, this whole story has been fascinating from, from the start.
[34:34.120 --> 34:37.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, you know, there are a lot of, uh, human rights violations here in the United States.
[34:37.480 --> 34:41.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: If, uh, you go around hacking sites here in, in this country.
[34:41.980 --> 34:50.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll bet the, um, you know, the same authorities that aren't pursuing you now, uh, will certainly take an interest and, and track you down like a dog, right?
[34:50.720 --> 34:51.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[34:51.240 --> 34:51.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that's the truth.
[34:52.680 --> 35:02.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, but then again, that's kind of the advantage of hitting overseas sites or sites that are out of our country, especially with countries that don't have extradition treaties in the United States.
[35:02.640 --> 35:02.900]  Uh huh.
[35:03.200 --> 35:08.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, even if, even if our government did want to do something about it, there's no treaties, there's no law governing it.
[35:09.980 --> 35:10.260]  Uh huh.
[35:10.780 --> 35:14.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: It'd be kind of hard for them to, you know, give me away just to the Chinese.
[35:15.160 --> 35:17.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let's say, you know, pull the kidnapping stone or something like that.
[35:17.760 --> 35:20.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, that would be very bad if they, if they did something like that.
[35:20.200 --> 35:24.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's kind of unprecedented too, at least as far as I can see in this particular context.
[35:25.420 --> 35:28.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, what do you, uh, we're going to take phone calls, 212-209-2900.
[35:28.300 --> 35:38.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: What, what do you, uh, recommend to those people out there who, uh, who know how to hack webpages and are, uh, poised on the keyboard waiting to, uh, to play with some sites someplace?
[35:39.390 --> 35:44.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, don't do it unless it's your own or unless you, you really know what you're doing.
[35:44.520 --> 35:48.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because if you do something and it's wrong and you mess something up, you're going to get in trouble.
[35:49.120 --> 35:50.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's all there is to it.
[35:50.160 --> 35:51.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's been proven over and over again.
[35:51.700 --> 35:51.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[35:52.410 --> 35:56.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: One thing I've noticed with, uh, a lot of the hack sites is that there is no real message.
[35:56.960 --> 36:00.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the message is basically just a lot of posturing and bragging and putting down...
[36:00.760 --> 36:01.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, you rarely...
[36:01.460 --> 36:03.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, putting down other groups and things like that.
[36:03.420 --> 36:09.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, in your particular case, what you did was you sent out a very strong message about a human rights violation.
[36:09.950 --> 36:12.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, you may have actually saved somebody's life by doing that.
[36:12.380 --> 36:22.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, by the same token, you could also get somebody killed doing this because, you know, someone might, uh, you know, overreact and, uh, for instance, people looking at the wrong websites in China, who knows what the penalty for that is.
[36:22.500 --> 36:23.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[36:23.220 --> 36:27.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but, uh, the thing is, there are a lot of issues out there that need to be brought out.
[36:28.040 --> 36:37.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, basically, by using the, the, the tools of the people who you are opposed to, to spread the very message that they're against, you reach a lot of people.
[36:38.220 --> 36:38.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[36:38.700 --> 36:41.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's, like I was saying, that's the, the whole part of the Internet.
[36:42.120 --> 36:46.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, it can put one person on the level playing field with a powerful government.
[36:47.330 --> 36:47.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mm-hmm.
[36:48.040 --> 36:50.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, and that, that hack was just an example of that.
[36:52.120 --> 36:58.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, um, a regular protest, if I would have, you know, ran around outside in front of the, the Chinese embassy, no one would have cared.
[36:59.640 --> 37:03.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, whatever I said, I could have told them a sky was falling, no one would have cared.
[37:03.620 --> 37:03.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[37:03.780 --> 37:08.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: But you hack a site on the Internet of some powerful government, and all of a sudden everyone looks and listens.
[37:11.430 --> 37:11.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's true.
[37:12.020 --> 37:17.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's, uh, an inspiration for individuals on the net that, uh, their word actually can count for something.
[37:17.780 --> 37:19.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: But you gotta be really careful doing this.
[37:19.430 --> 37:19.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[37:19.890 --> 37:21.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're playing for keeps over there.
[37:21.700 --> 37:22.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[37:22.040 --> 37:34.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's where I think a lot of the, uh, you know, the four code kiddies and, uh, the, the new kid, the new groups of all the young kids that are, you know, hacking sites and putting up, you know, we're elite and we hate this group and we like that group.
[37:34.560 --> 37:34.640]  Mm-hmm.
[37:35.200 --> 37:37.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, why be part of a group?
[37:37.280 --> 37:40.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, you joined the group, so what, what's, what's the reason behind that?
[37:40.560 --> 37:44.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, we all had, uh, a lot of common interests when I first joined them.
[37:45.240 --> 37:51.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, a lot of their friends were friends with people I was with and some of them, uh, lived, you know, a near vicinity to me.
[37:51.620 --> 37:54.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, we were all interested in just common things.
[37:56.410 --> 37:56.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[37:57.220 --> 37:57.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: So...
[37:57.500 --> 37:59.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's the only reason I could see, you know, to join a group group.
[38:00.180 --> 38:09.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: How do you avoid groups that get involved in these, these rivalries where they, they basically just put each other down and, uh, you know, act like people in a mall or something?
[38:09.500 --> 38:10.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, it's easy to tell them.
[38:11.180 --> 38:20.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, once you start talking to people, either they're, um, mature, and you can tell they're mature, you know, even in IRC, or if they're not mature.
[38:21.200 --> 38:31.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, if you walk in, they're walking in, like, an IRC channel, or if you're in, like, a list server or something like that, and it's just a flame war going on, you can tell what kind of environment you've walked into.
[38:32.950 --> 38:33.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[38:33.410 --> 38:37.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you talk to people and they sound intelligent and mature, that's a different story.
[38:38.800 --> 38:39.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[38:39.580 --> 38:42.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you talk to people in different groups while you were in LLU?
[38:43.140 --> 38:43.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[38:43.980 --> 38:47.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there were no, uh, no problems crossing lines or things like that?
[38:48.760 --> 38:50.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, not really.
[38:50.180 --> 39:04.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, there's some groups, you know, the, the smaller, uh, newer groups, the people were less skilled at, you know, see, uh, see a semi-well-established group that has done something and have gotten, you know, some media coverage for it, and they always want a piece of it,
[39:04.430 --> 39:05.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: so they take shots at you.
[39:05.640 --> 39:05.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[39:06.370 --> 39:11.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or they say something in your name, which in the world of the Internet is very hard to disprove.
[39:11.080 --> 39:18.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: As we've said a couple of times tonight, you can say something and say that you're a particular person or part of a particular group, and how do you, how do you deny it?
[39:19.640 --> 39:29.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, all I've been doing, uh, up until a few weeks ago was basically, uh, writing reporters, writing people who have talked to the wrong people and setting them straight.
[39:30.040 --> 39:30.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[39:30.460 --> 39:30.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: And...
[39:30.870 --> 39:32.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's, that's a full-time job, let me tell you.
[39:32.620 --> 39:32.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, yeah.
[39:33.080 --> 39:38.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: It turned, it was just got, it just got so, so bad that I just stopped talking to people altogether.
[39:38.640 --> 39:38.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[39:39.180 --> 39:39.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know?
[39:40.000 --> 39:47.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I, I spent more time defending our position and more, more time telling reporters that you talk to the wrong people or you got it wrong.
[39:47.260 --> 39:48.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, it just got out of hand.
[39:48.850 --> 39:52.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was doing that more than, than telling the facts of the story anymore.
[39:53.480 --> 39:53.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[39:54.040 --> 39:55.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you gonna stay on the line for some phone calls?
[39:55.660 --> 39:56.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
[39:56.260 --> 40:05.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we're talking to Bronc, a, uh, hacker who has hacked Chinese webpages and put, um, examples of human rights abuses right there for everybody to see.
[40:05.700 --> 40:08.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly the kind of thing that the Chinese government did not want.
[40:08.500 --> 40:10.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: It opens up all kinds of doors for, uh, net activism.
[40:11.430 --> 40:14.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[40:14.430 --> 40:15.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's take some phone calls.
[40:15.580 --> 40:16.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[40:16.180 --> 40:16.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[40:17.260 --> 40:17.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, Daniel.
[40:18.000 --> 40:18.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, Porkchop.
[40:18.700 --> 40:19.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's Farrah.
[40:19.600 --> 40:20.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: How you doing?
[40:20.220 --> 40:20.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, good.
[40:21.120 --> 40:23.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, first off, the MP3 stream is working.
[40:24.000 --> 40:24.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[40:24.390 --> 40:25.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Three streamers are working.
[40:25.450 --> 40:25.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yup.
[40:25.910 --> 40:28.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, I have two more questions to ask from last time.
[40:29.020 --> 40:34.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, is there anything going on against Guinness and about how they, uh, about their false printings about McNick?
[40:34.850 --> 40:40.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, interesting, um, interesting, um, interesting thing that, uh, you mentioned that, uh, we have a site.
[40:40.850 --> 40:42.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've, we've, we've, we've grabbed the site.
[40:42.660 --> 40:50.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, if you look at, uh, Guinness Book of World Records, their, um, their page is, I believe it's www.guinnessrecords.com.
[40:50.830 --> 40:54.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, now, interesting thing, spell Guinness.
[40:54.140 --> 40:54.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[40:54.640 --> 40:56.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: How many N's do you put in it?
[40:56.220 --> 40:56.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: One or two?
[40:57.100 --> 40:58.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Isaac, you're here?
[40:58.450 --> 40:59.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm imagining one.
[40:59.800 --> 41:00.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: You put one, Porkchop?
[41:00.830 --> 41:01.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd probably put two.
[41:01.890 --> 41:02.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Two.
[41:02.390 --> 41:02.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[41:02.960 --> 41:10.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Isaac, when, when, when you enter your version, you'll get our webpage instead of their webpage because they didn't register the one with one N.
[41:10.500 --> 41:13.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: And on that webpage, which, which we just got, it's not, it's not up yet.
[41:13.870 --> 41:15.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: It will be up probably within 24 hours.
[41:15.870 --> 41:20.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, you will see the corrected, uh, Kevin Mitnick, uh, piece.
[41:20.820 --> 41:24.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, of course we'll also give them the opportunity to move on to their site as well.
[41:25.080 --> 41:25.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[41:25.620 --> 41:29.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because, like, the book's supposed to be based on facts, but they lie about the stuff with Kevin.
[41:29.430 --> 41:29.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[41:29.620 --> 41:31.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: We don't know if they're lying about something else.
[41:31.280 --> 41:37.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's, it's awfully weird because, you know, a book of world records, I don't know how they come up with something like, you know, this guy is the most notorious hacker.
[41:37.560 --> 41:39.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, there's no facts to, to support that.
[41:40.140 --> 41:40.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[41:40.950 --> 41:41.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um...
[41:42.040 --> 41:42.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's not.
[41:42.780 --> 41:49.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: The second thing is, I know on the, Nick, uh, mailing list that people have been, uh, running to 2020 and Dateline requesting a show for, about Kevin.
[41:49.720 --> 41:49.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[41:50.240 --> 41:52.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is there any more news on this and, like, what's going on with it?
[41:52.620 --> 41:58.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: I hear things back and forth from reporters occasionally interested in the Mitnick case, but nothing really concrete.
[41:59.060 --> 42:06.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, there are people who write newspaper stories occasionally, but as far as the major media, um, no, I haven't heard anything that they will be doing.
[42:06.800 --> 42:15.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: I imagine as, as the trial gets closer, which is April 20th, uh, you're going to see more media coverage, but it's probably not going to be the most enlightened.
[42:17.140 --> 42:17.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh huh.
[42:18.260 --> 42:18.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh huh.
[42:18.500 --> 42:27.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because, like, it's a, it should, it, it's like a very, like a, uh, what's, um, it's like popular, like, it'd be a good show.
[42:27.330 --> 42:27.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh huh.
[42:27.410 --> 42:29.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because it, if they would say the right stuff.
[42:29.480 --> 42:30.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: If they would say, yeah, exactly.
[42:30.500 --> 42:31.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: They'd say the right stuff.
[42:31.330 --> 42:39.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: But then, you know, look at, uh, Mami Abu Jamal, you know, the, the things they've said about him on, uh, on various news programs or, or, you know, news magazines.
[42:39.780 --> 42:45.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you'll see that they, they virtually leave out all the information that, uh, the rest of the world is talking about.
[42:45.700 --> 42:45.930]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh huh.
[42:46.740 --> 42:51.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, can I say, uh, thanks to Mastermind Squire and Telefreak for helping me spread the word about Kevin.
[42:52.100 --> 42:53.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I'd prefer you didn't.
[42:53.560 --> 42:54.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, thanks.
[42:54.370 --> 42:54.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, sorry.
[42:54.910 --> 42:55.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for calling me anyway.
[42:56.760 --> 42:58.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, should we let him say that?
[42:58.390 --> 42:59.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, let's not let him say that.
[42:59.720 --> 43:00.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[43:00.640 --> 43:01.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, good evening.
[43:01.300 --> 43:01.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[43:01.680 --> 43:02.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[43:02.080 --> 43:03.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hey, Emmanuel.
[43:03.260 --> 43:03.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's Tommy.
[43:03.980 --> 43:04.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: How you doing, Tommy?
[43:04.660 --> 43:05.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's been a long time.
[43:05.200 --> 43:08.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: We haven't spoken and I haven't seen you at the meetings lately.
[43:08.460 --> 43:10.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I was in the Boston meeting last time.
[43:10.410 --> 43:11.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's where I picked up the flu.
[43:11.600 --> 43:11.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I know.
[43:11.930 --> 43:12.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I brought it back here.
[43:13.020 --> 43:15.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I picked up the flu from you over the airlines here.
[43:15.280 --> 43:17.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, no, I don't think they, I don't think we can do that anymore.
[43:17.600 --> 43:17.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I know.
[43:17.910 --> 43:19.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think we fixed that little problem.
[43:19.160 --> 43:19.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[43:19.480 --> 43:20.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, two things.
[43:20.680 --> 43:25.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, too bad, uh, I don't feel like talking about the China thing right now, because I have no idea what to talk about on that.
[43:26.220 --> 43:44.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, uh, as the Village Voice quotes and I knew about, uh, Windows refund day was on Monday, where, uh, the president of New York Linux users group says, if you boot up your computer with a boot floppy that isn't a Windows floppy, put on a different operating system other than Microsoft,
[43:45.040 --> 43:59.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: what you can do is you're actually not agreeing to their user license and you can go to the person you bought that new computer from and demand a refund for the Windows portion, which the voice is quoting anywhere on the testimonials.
[43:59.020 --> 44:01.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's either $5 to $200.
[44:02.600 --> 44:03.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting.
[44:03.480 --> 44:09.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: So that was like $5 from Toshiba to a possible $200 from Dell, which is a very interesting story.
[44:09.800 --> 44:11.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I wanted to spread that out to the other users.
[44:12.140 --> 44:13.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's in this week's Village Voice?
[44:13.100 --> 44:13.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[44:14.000 --> 44:31.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, if you go online to, uh, www.villagevoice.com, it's under cop slash column slash 9906 slash V-A-R-L-I-A-N-T dot S-H-N, sorry, S-H-T-M-L.
[44:32.020 --> 44:35.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's where the actual, uh, story is.
[44:35.260 --> 44:37.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's the second story on that page.
[44:37.440 --> 44:41.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's their, uh, machine age little page there of this week's voice.
[44:41.680 --> 44:47.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was also published in the voice, as I understood, um, at last week's voice.
[44:47.780 --> 44:48.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[44:48.060 --> 44:51.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I can't, uh, testify to that because I didn't see it in there.
[44:51.280 --> 44:52.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we'll take a look.
[44:52.640 --> 45:01.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the second issue is, uh, I want everybody to start getting their, uh, money together because we want to take a group trip this year out to DEFCON.
[45:01.600 --> 45:09.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, I put up a page that you can get to from the planning page, and, uh, we're going to try to get a whole plane maybe to go out to DEFCON.
[45:09.820 --> 45:10.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, that's, that's something.
[45:11.040 --> 45:11.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Why don't you take a bus?
[45:11.900 --> 45:13.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a lot cheaper and it's a lot more fun.
[45:13.320 --> 45:17.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we might want to do that too, uh, depending on who wants to get together.
[45:17.380 --> 45:21.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Everyone can send me an email again at, uh, prekevin at netscape.net.
[45:22.280 --> 45:28.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, we're going to bring some battery-powered hubs to bring with us so we can have some, uh, networking fun on the buses.
[45:28.980 --> 45:29.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[45:29.480 --> 45:34.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, uh, people might also want to do something like that for the trial, you know, because that's going to be pretty interesting coming up in, uh, in April.
[45:34.740 --> 45:37.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I'm really hoping that the trial goes well.
[45:37.800 --> 45:40.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry for the four-year anniversary now, you know.
[45:40.440 --> 45:41.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's...
[45:41.280 --> 45:42.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm really disliking the government.
[45:42.360 --> 45:49.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm glad you brought that up, uh, something I totally forgot about, but on Monday, uh, yesterday, it, uh, it marked the fourth anniversary Kevin Mitnick has been in prison.
[45:49.560 --> 45:52.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: February 15th, 1995 is when he was arrested.
[45:52.300 --> 45:54.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was reported right here on WBAI on that day.
[45:55.300 --> 46:00.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: And boy, it's, it's just unbelievable that it's gone on for so long and he still has not had a trial.
[46:00.440 --> 46:00.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's...
[46:01.320 --> 46:02.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: It boggles the imagination.
[46:02.860 --> 46:04.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's, uh, longer than his sentence.
[46:04.740 --> 46:06.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's really going to be longer than his sentence.
[46:07.040 --> 46:10.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, so they should just acquit him right now and let him out.
[46:10.140 --> 46:15.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because, uh, there's no way he could be serving more than four years for his crimes that he...
[46:15.180 --> 46:17.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's if he's found guilty of everything they're saying.
[46:18.040 --> 46:21.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I know he's not guilty of, of, of most of the things that they're saying about him.
[46:21.140 --> 46:21.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[46:21.700 --> 46:22.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, so...
[46:22.440 --> 46:27.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: The possibility of him even serving four years is, like, not even correct.
[46:27.240 --> 46:28.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: It would have been less than that.
[46:28.520 --> 46:28.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[46:29.140 --> 46:31.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hopefully, uh, people get that word out there, too.
[46:31.380 --> 46:31.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[46:31.920 --> 46:32.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hey, thanks for calling.
[46:32.800 --> 46:33.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for reminding me of that.
[46:33.640 --> 46:33.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, talk to you, too.
[46:34.040 --> 46:34.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[46:34.740 --> 46:41.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Brunk, you must be, uh, kind of, kind of quivering there to hear something like this, about, you know, Kevin being locked up four years without, without a trial.
[46:41.080 --> 46:45.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: And here you are, a nation of a billion people, you know, at, at, at your throat there.
[46:46.060 --> 46:47.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, yeah, you, you worried at all?
[46:48.000 --> 46:52.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, um, I was at first, but as of late, things have really died down.
[46:52.700 --> 46:54.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: The media coverage has died down.
[46:54.640 --> 46:57.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: I haven't heard anything from the Chinese government in a while.
[46:57.820 --> 47:00.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it's, uh, pretty much starting to blow over.
[47:00.180 --> 47:01.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you, are you gonna leave them alone?
[47:02.480 --> 47:03.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I plan on it.
[47:03.980 --> 47:04.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[47:04.780 --> 47:09.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, you know, for, for right now, I mean, me and Zipon have, uh, normal lives.
[47:09.880 --> 47:15.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, we don't need, you know, some samurais barging in the door and chopping our heads off, or slicing and dicing us.
[47:16.520 --> 47:19.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the Chinese samurais, uh, they, they're pretty, they're pretty nasty.
[47:20.420 --> 47:29.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, are there other countries that, uh, that you think, uh, are also, um, on the net and, and fairly hypocritical as far as their human rights?
[47:29.200 --> 47:30.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: The United States.
[47:30.300 --> 47:31.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, besides the United States, obviously.
[47:33.340 --> 47:33.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[47:33.820 --> 47:36.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, well, uh, you know, Serbia and the Yugoslavia Republic...
[47:36.940 --> 47:37.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, yes.
[47:37.420 --> 47:38.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: ...are a mess over there.
[47:39.280 --> 47:42.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, um, there's a lot of stuff happening in Africa, but...
[47:43.000 --> 47:43.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: ...it's no third world.
[47:43.860 --> 47:45.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: They don't even have telephones over there.
[47:45.560 --> 47:45.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[47:46.060 --> 47:54.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's a bunch on the net for that, but for, for companies that are on the net, Yugoslavia and Eastern Europe, that whole place is a mess over there.
[47:54.240 --> 47:54.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mm-hmm.
[47:54.440 --> 47:58.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, there, there are a lot of, um, a lot of sites that are being hacked almost every day.
[47:59.080 --> 48:06.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, uh, we had a, a bunch of, uh, Mexican sites getting hacked, um, yesterday and the day before when President Clinton was down there.
[48:06.800 --> 48:15.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, and, uh, it's, it's, it's really something, a lot of things coming out of South America, uh, the, the net activism really seems to have stepped up in the last couple of months.
[48:16.220 --> 48:29.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, you can look at, uh, we, we, we keep an archive of these sites on our website, www.2600.com, and you can see just how it's grown in the past, uh, couple of months, certainly in the past couple of years where it, it virtually wasn't happening at all.
[48:30.600 --> 48:32.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, where, where, where is this going to go?
[48:32.640 --> 48:33.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Where is it going to end?
[48:33.820 --> 48:37.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: It seems like, uh, you know, it just keeps getting more and more popular.
[48:37.380 --> 48:40.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, people are now, they're starting to, to realize what I was saying earlier.
[48:40.860 --> 48:43.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, the net can put one person on the same level as the world government.
[48:44.120 --> 48:44.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mm-hmm.
[48:44.460 --> 48:53.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm surprised with how long people have been, uh, hacking sites for, for Kevin, you know, putting free Kevin banners up on really, you know, profile sites.
[48:53.480 --> 49:05.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm surprised, you know, it took, uh, around my time, you know, me and other people that were starting to, uh, hack government sites for people to realize, hey, you know, this is a, a way to get our message across.
[49:05.360 --> 49:05.620]  Mm-hmm.
[49:05.680 --> 49:08.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Without having to go, you know, march in the rain or have tear gas shot at us.
[49:12.690 --> 49:15.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't see nothing but, uh, an escalation of this, really.
[49:18.150 --> 49:18.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[49:18.850 --> 49:20.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we're gonna take another phone call.
[49:21.070 --> 49:22.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-209-2900.
[49:22.970 --> 49:24.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[49:24.770 --> 49:25.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, this is Alan.
[49:26.290 --> 49:26.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: How you doing?
[49:27.190 --> 49:27.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good.
[49:28.310 --> 49:37.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I just wanted to mention the correction I emailed you about this, um, concerning last week's, uh, uh, sorry, episode.
[49:38.550 --> 49:41.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, you mentioned FCC.org.
[49:45.640 --> 49:46.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry, could you repeat that?
[49:47.160 --> 49:50.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, um, on last week's show, you mentioned FCC.org.
[49:51.160 --> 49:52.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah, that was a mistake.
[49:52.580 --> 49:53.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: It should be FCC.gov, right?
[49:54.060 --> 49:54.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[49:54.320 --> 49:54.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[49:55.420 --> 50:03.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, um, also to let you know, thanks to Calibran, I have apparently found a home for the mailing list archives.
[50:03.800 --> 50:05.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: For the, uh, Mitnick mailing list archives?
[50:06.140 --> 50:06.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[50:06.800 --> 50:07.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, do you have an address for us?
[50:08.480 --> 50:09.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, not yet.
[50:09.380 --> 50:10.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're still working it out.
[50:10.500 --> 50:10.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[50:10.720 --> 50:14.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, he's gonna give me space on darkwalk.com, apparently.
[50:15.340 --> 50:15.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Great, great.
[50:16.060 --> 50:18.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, all our, all our messages on there will be saved for eternity.
[50:19.620 --> 50:20.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[50:20.520 --> 50:21.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, that's a real comfort.
[50:22.300 --> 50:22.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[50:22.940 --> 50:25.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, thanks, uh, thanks for calling and spending the information.
[50:25.740 --> 50:26.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[50:26.480 --> 50:27.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on off the hook.
[50:27.180 --> 50:27.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi, um...
[50:27.940 --> 50:28.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, listen to this.
[50:29.460 --> 50:29.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hear that?
[50:29.880 --> 50:30.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like feedback.
[50:31.860 --> 50:32.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, more...
[50:33.100 --> 50:34.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't, I didn't...
[50:35.060 --> 50:36.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Whoa, that is feedback.
[50:36.520 --> 50:36.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[50:36.880 --> 50:37.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, I didn't do that.
[50:37.760 --> 50:38.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I really didn't.
[50:38.440 --> 50:38.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: You saw me.
[50:38.980 --> 50:39.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't touch anything.
[50:39.820 --> 50:40.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, you didn't touch anything.
[50:40.660 --> 50:41.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's a mental thing.
[50:41.760 --> 50:43.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Somehow I got him to hang up, but it's by thinking.
[50:44.540 --> 50:45.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do it again.
[50:45.460 --> 50:47.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm sure he's gonna call again, so I'll do it again.
[50:48.260 --> 50:48.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[50:49.020 --> 50:49.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[50:49.460 --> 50:49.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, hi.
[50:49.900 --> 50:50.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: See?
[50:50.200 --> 50:51.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hold on, let me try it.
[50:52.020 --> 50:53.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hold on, I'm thinking really hard now.
[50:53.600 --> 50:53.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[50:54.440 --> 50:54.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[50:54.680 --> 50:56.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, you're not supposed to help me here.
[50:56.260 --> 50:57.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't think this is off the hook anymore.
[50:57.860 --> 50:59.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: You don't think this is off the hook anymore?
[50:59.220 --> 51:01.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, because we don't talk about telephones anymore?
[51:01.960 --> 51:04.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, well, we're talking on the telephone, aren't we?
[51:04.320 --> 51:04.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, but we don't...
[51:04.860 --> 51:05.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: What is this?
[51:05.580 --> 51:08.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: The China show and the tell superstitious...
[51:08.400 --> 51:11.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, it's, it's, it's more than just telephones.
[51:11.940 --> 51:12.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's computers.
[51:13.020 --> 51:13.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's the Internet.
[51:13.880 --> 51:14.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
[51:14.220 --> 51:15.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's freedom of speech.
[51:15.160 --> 51:15.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's hackers.
[51:15.840 --> 51:21.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I think maybe a little, uh, you know, one interest there might not be talked about as much.
[51:21.740 --> 51:23.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, but nothing for nothing, Emmanuel.
[51:23.460 --> 51:24.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: First of all, the U.S.
[51:24.680 --> 51:26.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: doesn't test nuclear bombs anymore.
[51:26.400 --> 51:28.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Second of all, China's not communist anymore.
[51:28.960 --> 51:30.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you need to move your phone away from...
[51:30.940 --> 51:31.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, hold on a second.
[51:31.660 --> 51:36.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Before, before I jump into you on this, you need to move your phone away from the radio so you don't get that nasty feedback.
[51:36.180 --> 51:36.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, what was this?
[51:37.100 --> 51:38.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: China's not communist anymore?
[51:38.480 --> 51:38.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[51:39.020 --> 51:39.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: What are they then?
[51:40.080 --> 51:40.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: A monarchy?
[51:41.380 --> 51:42.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: What did I miss?
[51:42.440 --> 51:43.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, they're definitely like us.
[51:43.200 --> 51:44.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: What are you talking about this?
[51:44.140 --> 51:45.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: China's like us now.
[51:46.060 --> 51:48.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I need to read more, obviously.
[51:48.360 --> 51:50.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, you need to read more instead of reading Kevin Mitnick's story.
[51:50.640 --> 51:54.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no, obviously I've been, I've been, I've been, in a hole somewhere.
[51:54.620 --> 51:55.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm flying in China.
[51:55.300 --> 51:56.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know how I know?
[51:56.680 --> 51:57.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do you know?
[51:57.480 --> 51:57.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: I called China.
[51:58.000 --> 51:58.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: You called China, okay.
[51:59.260 --> 52:00.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you asked them?
[52:00.280 --> 52:03.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: They haven't been, yeah, they haven't been communists for the past ten years.
[52:03.500 --> 52:04.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Gee whiz.
[52:04.220 --> 52:05.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: What are you doing?
[52:05.900 --> 52:06.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: I want some of that.
[52:07.500 --> 52:07.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: No!
[52:08.480 --> 52:10.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think you guys are on something.
[52:10.420 --> 52:13.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: And second of all, have you ever heard of the non-nuclear proliferation treaty?
[52:13.760 --> 52:14.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: The test ban treaty?
[52:14.820 --> 52:15.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[52:15.080 --> 52:15.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well...
[52:15.400 --> 52:15.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[52:15.960 --> 52:16.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: So...
[52:16.280 --> 52:16.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: What about it?
[52:17.040 --> 52:18.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: When did the US test a nuclear bomb?
[52:18.880 --> 52:20.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was in the 70s.
[52:20.920 --> 52:21.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: What did they have to do with anything?
[52:22.160 --> 52:22.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, you said...
[52:22.680 --> 52:23.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are you talking about an air burst?
[52:24.000 --> 52:25.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are you talking about a ground test?
[52:25.100 --> 52:32.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, you were saying people are hacking in computers that they can see where they test the nuclear or something or another?
[52:32.900 --> 52:33.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are...
[52:33.940 --> 52:36.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are still nuclear sites.
[52:36.420 --> 52:38.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not sure what it is you're debating here.
[52:38.460 --> 52:44.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: The DOE still does tests, not actual burst tests, whether air or underground.
[52:44.220 --> 52:48.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: They do small-scale reaction tests, and it's...
[52:48.020 --> 52:49.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're still doing them in the Southwest.
[52:49.900 --> 52:50.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't think...
[52:50.740 --> 52:52.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: I thought they were not allowed to do that.
[52:52.660 --> 52:53.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, they're not bombs.
[52:53.840 --> 52:55.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're just...
[52:55.960 --> 52:57.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's all kinds of tactical things.
[52:57.900 --> 53:00.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you think there are no tactical things going on, you're not paying attention.
[53:00.060 --> 53:00.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[53:00.420 --> 53:02.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: Did you know that they're going to cancel the Internet?
[53:02.780 --> 53:04.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: The government's going to say no more Internet?
[53:04.680 --> 53:05.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are they going to cancel it?
[53:05.260 --> 53:06.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: I do want what he's on right now.
[53:06.900 --> 53:07.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: I want a piece of that.
[53:07.940 --> 53:08.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Most definitely.
[53:08.520 --> 53:09.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: That'll be interesting.
[53:09.400 --> 53:11.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: My point is the following.
[53:12.180 --> 53:16.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to write to the president of the Internet and make sure that that does not...
[53:16.440 --> 53:18.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, and I urge everyone to do the same thing.
[53:19.000 --> 53:19.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[53:20.140 --> 53:25.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, you know what, I wanted to do this a few weeks ago, and I think this is actually a good idea.
[53:25.400 --> 53:28.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to declare myself president of the Internet because no one else has done it yet.
[53:28.320 --> 53:28.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Really?
[53:28.640 --> 53:29.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can I get vice president?
[53:30.020 --> 53:30.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can I make a point?
[53:31.120 --> 53:31.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: My point is that...
[53:32.060 --> 53:33.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll get back to you on that.
[53:33.480 --> 53:34.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have to think about it.
[53:34.540 --> 53:39.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't want to make a rash decision here, but right now I have declared myself the president of the Internet.
[53:39.240 --> 53:41.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, since no one else has done it, you know?
[53:41.240 --> 53:43.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's how kings and queens get made, after all.
[53:43.340 --> 53:43.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: Emmanuel?
[53:44.280 --> 53:44.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[53:44.600 --> 53:46.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: You want to declare yourself something before someone else does?
[53:47.020 --> 53:47.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: My point is as follows.
[53:47.380 --> 53:48.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: My point is as follows.
[53:48.260 --> 53:48.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[53:48.660 --> 53:49.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: I live...
[53:49.160 --> 53:50.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's an army base, okay?
[53:50.600 --> 53:54.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: There used to be a fair every year, every summer, with all rides and carnival and stuff.
[53:54.920 --> 53:55.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[53:55.080 --> 53:55.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: They don't have it anymore.
[53:55.900 --> 53:56.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know why?
[53:57.260 --> 53:57.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Communists?
[53:57.900 --> 53:58.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, they're not communists.
[53:58.780 --> 54:00.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, they're afraid of terrorists.
[54:00.460 --> 54:01.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, you know...
[54:01.440 --> 54:02.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's another story.
[54:02.300 --> 54:02.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's something.
[54:02.960 --> 54:03.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was reading...
[54:03.920 --> 54:04.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: You should read this...
[54:04.940 --> 54:06.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Harper's Review.
[54:06.960 --> 54:07.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, not...
[54:07.560 --> 54:08.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Harper's Index.
[54:08.440 --> 54:09.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what I meant to say.
[54:09.300 --> 54:15.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they gave the shocking statistics about terrorism in the last 12 years or so.
[54:16.000 --> 54:18.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: How it's increased so incredibly, world terrorism.
[54:19.220 --> 54:22.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Rebel, how much do you think terrorism has increased worldwide in the last 12 years?
[54:23.300 --> 54:23.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh...
[54:23.700 --> 54:24.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Give me a percentage.
[54:24.620 --> 54:24.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
[54:25.620 --> 54:26.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll give you this.
[54:26.480 --> 54:27.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's shocking.
[54:27.280 --> 54:28.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: You will be shocked.
[54:28.580 --> 54:29.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's increased, I'm sure, but...
[54:29.820 --> 54:30.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: So give me a figure.
[54:31.000 --> 54:31.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think it's increased?
[54:31.700 --> 54:32.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's say, in the past 12 years?
[54:33.060 --> 54:34.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Maybe 15, 20 percent?
[54:35.200 --> 54:35.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Really?
[54:36.040 --> 54:37.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: You think it's only 15 or 20 percent?
[54:37.660 --> 54:38.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, I mean...
[54:38.820 --> 54:39.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: Worldwide?
[54:39.560 --> 54:39.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Worldwide.
[54:40.060 --> 54:40.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Worldwide, yeah.
[54:40.660 --> 54:41.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: The entire world.
[54:42.420 --> 54:43.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have no idea.
[54:43.440 --> 54:43.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: But my point is...
[54:43.980 --> 54:44.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: They say 20 percent.
[54:45.100 --> 54:46.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's gone down.
[54:46.620 --> 54:48.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Over 50 percent.
[54:48.460 --> 54:48.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[54:48.980 --> 54:52.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: All this reaction is to something that's going away.
[54:52.420 --> 54:53.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's depleting.
[54:53.700 --> 54:57.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's only been one act of international terrorism on our soil.
[54:57.520 --> 54:58.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the World Trade Center bombing.
[54:59.320 --> 55:03.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unless you want to count people insulting each other or something like that as terrorism.
[55:03.960 --> 55:06.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: And of course, there's Oklahoma City, which is domestic terrorism.
[55:07.080 --> 55:09.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it's gone down, folks.
[55:09.380 --> 55:09.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: It really has.
[55:09.760 --> 55:14.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: All these barricades in front of the White House and all these crackdowns on the Internet.
[55:15.100 --> 55:16.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what their reaction is.
[55:16.440 --> 55:18.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Their reaction is against imagination, I suppose.
[55:18.280 --> 55:19.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do you cancel things?
[55:19.880 --> 55:21.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Can we cancel all the flights?
[55:21.060 --> 55:23.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: No more flying on planes internationally because we're afraid of terrorism?
[55:24.780 --> 55:25.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um.
[55:25.360 --> 55:25.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[55:25.940 --> 55:26.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know what my point is?
[55:26.760 --> 55:27.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: My point is that...
[55:27.080 --> 55:27.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know what your point is.
[55:27.840 --> 55:29.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why do you cancel good things?
[55:29.280 --> 55:31.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because we're afraid of terrorism, because it's on an army base.
[55:32.340 --> 55:36.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're afraid that terrorists, you know, because terrorists may target an army base.
[55:36.820 --> 55:39.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're afraid of that, so we're going to cancel the fair.
[55:40.580 --> 55:41.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's sad.
[55:41.680 --> 55:42.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's sad, yeah, you're right.
[55:43.040 --> 55:43.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: It is.
[55:44.960 --> 55:45.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[55:46.180 --> 55:47.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can we move on?
[55:47.260 --> 55:52.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, actually, we can't really move on much more, but thanks for calling, Rebel, and let's see if we can get one more phone call in.
[55:52.360 --> 55:53.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's an interesting character, to say the least.
[55:54.460 --> 55:56.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, let's keep that at the least and move on to another call.
[55:56.920 --> 55:57.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[55:57.280 --> 55:57.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[55:57.840 --> 55:58.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello?
[55:58.580 --> 55:59.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, speak up, please.
[55:59.460 --> 55:59.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Make it quick.
[55:59.940 --> 56:01.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, this is Trecker with 1K.
[56:02.160 --> 56:03.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Trecker with 1K.
[56:03.500 --> 56:03.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[56:06.000 --> 56:11.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Concerning your previous statement about governments, what's the Internet a perfect example of communism?
[56:13.020 --> 56:17.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there is no perfect example of communism in the real world, so maybe you're right about that.
[56:17.460 --> 56:23.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because all communists, I don't want to get too political here, but all communist regimes have gone corrupt in one way or another.
[56:25.160 --> 56:26.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe the Internet.
[56:26.020 --> 56:28.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'd have to study it a bit more to see if it actually fit.
[56:28.520 --> 56:37.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, I also think it's also the positive view of anarchy, which, you know, when people say anarchy, they think of everyone just running around hitting each other.
[56:37.180 --> 56:38.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's not what anarchy is at all.
[56:38.920 --> 56:43.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's a lot more peaceful than that and a lot more individual-based.
[56:44.320 --> 56:47.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Something we've been learning in our social studies class.
[56:48.160 --> 56:49.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, well, thanks for sharing it with us.
[56:49.480 --> 56:50.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unfortunately, we're out of time.
[56:51.800 --> 56:54.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bronk, I just wanted to give you the last word here.
[56:54.120 --> 56:55.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anything you want to pass on to people?
[56:58.720 --> 56:59.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not really.
[56:59.740 --> 57:00.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've had my say.
[57:01.240 --> 57:02.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you certainly have.
[57:02.260 --> 57:05.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: You've reached probably a couple billion people with your message.
[57:05.720 --> 57:06.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's two points, sir.
[57:06.580 --> 57:07.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
[57:07.060 --> 57:18.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I hope if you have any messages in the future, they continue to be right on track and relevant to various issues, as I hope anyone who takes it upon themselves to hack a page, think about what you're doing before you do it.
[57:18.620 --> 57:19.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Obviously, there's a risk involved.
[57:20.280 --> 57:25.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's definitely a risk involved, but also there's an opportunity to get a message across.
[57:25.720 --> 57:30.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that message is something you should be willing to be penalized for spreading.
[57:30.700 --> 57:35.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it should be something you believe in, just like any activist would do.
[57:35.300 --> 57:41.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there's a lot of parallels to activism from the 60s and 70s that you could draw from here.
[57:41.060 --> 57:44.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Your activism on the net is probably the next step.
[57:44.900 --> 57:47.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, our next step is going to be to walk out of here.
[57:47.460 --> 57:50.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be back in two weeks with another program.
[57:50.900 --> 58:00.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Until then, I advise people to please keep listening to the radio station, pledge your support for the fundraising drive, which will be taking place over the next 11 days starting tomorrow.
[58:01.100 --> 58:05.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And your pledge helps make this, makes a place possible where we can talk about things like this.
[58:05.860 --> 58:10.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you tune around, you'll find that people don't talk about this anywhere else.
[58:10.420 --> 58:11.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a reason for that.
[58:11.560 --> 58:13.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's corporate interest, but that's another show.
[58:13.880 --> 58:17.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, I'm going to go home and recover from whatever it is I have here and hopefully not spread it around too much more.
[58:18.420 --> 58:20.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Until two weeks from now, this is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[58:21.160 --> 58:21.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have a good night.
[58:29.250 --> 58:51.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough It couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would Bumbittly Bump But the best, expect the worst I hope that's understood Bumbittly Bump!
[59:59.020 --> 01:00:08.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is WBAI 99.5 FM in New York Stay tuned for Tahrir, your weekly Arab and Muslim magazine
[01:00:48.800 --> 01:01:15.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: And assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah Peace and blessings upon all This is Ibrahim Gonzalez A sitting in for Barbara Nimir Aziz And assalamu alaikum Mahmood Wa alaikum salam Thank you very much for that Yeah, wa alaikum salam And peace to everyone out there And we know that we're sitting in With Nadja Middleton In lieu of Barbara Nimir Aziz being here Who is still out in the field Collecting sound
[01:01:15.600 --> 01:01:30.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: and gathering information She generally leaves us and goes to the Middle East So she can collect all that wonderful material To bring back So we do appreciate the opportunity to be here Tonight we're going to be listening to several segments The first segment But we have two Thank you very much Thank you very much Thank you very much