Off The Hook - 1999-04-27

[00:08.830 --> 00:12.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: That was the Expert Witness Show with Michael Levine.
[00:12.650 --> 00:15.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: He'll be back next Tuesday at 7 p.m.
[00:15.770 --> 00:20.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: Coming up next over WBAI is Off the Hook with Emmanuel Goldstein.
[00:24.450 --> 00:32.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: WBAI will celebrate the 50th anniversary of the founding of Pacifica Radio on Sunday, May 2nd from 4 to 7 p.m.
[00:32.490 --> 00:33.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: at the Riverside Church.
[00:33.610 --> 00:48.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: Please join us to hear speakers and artists like Gil Noble, Kathleen Cleaver, Odetta, Edward Herman, Bob Fass, Amy Goodman, Fred Ho, Steve Post, Robert Knight, Juan Gonzales, Al Lewis, David Amram, and many, many others.
[00:49.010 --> 00:52.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's Sunday, May 2nd from 4 to 7 p.m.
[00:52.730 --> 00:57.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: at the Riverside Church on 120th Street near Columbia University.
[00:57.150 --> 01:05.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: To order tickets for this historic 50th anniversary event, please call area code 212-662-6804.
[01:06.210 --> 01:10.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's 212-662-6804.
[01:22.780 --> 01:27.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where it's time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:33.710 --> 01:38.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:39.050 --> 01:43.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: I cut myself off shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[01:44.310 --> 01:48.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[01:49.150 --> 01:51.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Bumbigley Bump was the best, expect the worst.
[01:52.290 --> 01:55.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: I hope that's understood, Bumbigley Bump!
[02:44.250 --> 02:45.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: And the program is Off the Hook.
[02:46.050 --> 02:46.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: A very good evening.
[02:50.480 --> 02:52.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh boy, it's been one of those days.
[02:53.280 --> 02:54.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hasn't it, Isaac?
[02:54.160 --> 02:55.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh yes, very long, very long.
[02:55.840 --> 02:56.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's going to get worse.
[02:57.440 --> 02:57.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: How will it?
[02:58.360 --> 02:59.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's going to get worse, it always does.
[03:01.840 --> 03:04.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Best to sit back, relax, and let it get worse.
[03:07.180 --> 03:16.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: We'll have updates on what happened in cyberspace this week, what's going to be happening in the next few weeks, months, years, you name it.
[03:16.740 --> 03:17.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Stay tuned.
[04:11.270 --> 04:23.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: On a mission of the lights Sing In the face An outpiece of mid-one Exciting Winkaboo
[06:07.800 --> 06:08.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Isaac, get off the table.
[06:09.220 --> 06:09.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[06:09.540 --> 06:09.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[06:10.300 --> 06:14.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it's a lively day here at Off the Hook.
[06:15.820 --> 06:17.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Unfortunately, it's not as lively as I think it should be.
[06:17.720 --> 06:18.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think we're on the net.
[06:18.800 --> 06:21.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not sure if we were able to get our site rerouted in time.
[06:21.300 --> 06:25.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, you know, it's kind of pointless talking about it because the people I'd be talking about it to are the ones who can't hear us.
[06:26.060 --> 06:31.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: So if that's the case, then you're probably hearing this through some sort of a rebroadcast or delay or something like that.
[06:31.280 --> 06:35.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, it's unfortunate because this is the program where we're going to tell people...
[06:35.160 --> 06:47.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I guess we can tell people in future programs, too, exactly what's going on with the Kevin Mitnick case, with the demonstrations that are coming up, and various other things that are on the burner, so to say.
[06:49.920 --> 06:52.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Basically, let's update a couple of news items, first of all.
[06:53.540 --> 07:00.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: You may have heard this in various newspapers, that Mitnick's so-called hacker accomplice has also pleaded guilty.
[07:01.280 --> 07:03.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Lewis De Payne, the accomplice to notorious hacker Kevin Mitnick...
[07:03.860 --> 07:08.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm reading the story as it appears, okay, so, you know, the sarcasm is me.
[07:10.080 --> 07:13.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: The accomplice to notorious hacker Kevin Mitnick, today pleaded guilty...
[07:13.820 --> 07:16.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: This actually was the 26th.
[07:16.180 --> 07:17.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Today is what, the 27th?
[07:17.620 --> 07:19.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, yes, that would be yesterday.
[07:20.120 --> 07:27.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Pleaded guilty to one count of wire fraud for his role in a series of computer break-ins that took place over a three-year period.
[07:28.160 --> 07:32.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, again, this is... it's kind of nutsy because, um...
[07:32.400 --> 07:34.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, what they're being charged with isn't computer break-ins.
[07:34.680 --> 07:37.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: At least, what Kevin is being charged with has nothing to do with computer break-ins.
[07:37.980 --> 07:41.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: It has to do with obtaining something by saying he was somebody he wasn't.
[07:42.300 --> 07:43.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's what it's all about.
[07:43.460 --> 07:45.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: And we'll have more on that in just a moment, too.
[07:46.440 --> 07:55.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, De Payne admitted that he took part in a plan to obtain sensitive software from cellular telephone maker Nokia by posing as a company employee.
[07:56.240 --> 08:01.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: The count was one of 14 brought against him in a 1996 criminal complaint.
[08:01.600 --> 08:10.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, De Payne entered his plea in federal court in Los Angeles before Judge Mariana Pfaelzer, the same judge that, uh, is hearing Kevin, or not hearing Kevin.
[08:10.240 --> 08:12.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not sure how you want to, uh, you want to say that.
[08:12.780 --> 08:16.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, last month, uh, Mitnick pleaded guilty to five of 25 counts in the same court.
[08:17.700 --> 08:20.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, De Payne is scheduled to be sentenced on July 12th.
[08:20.940 --> 08:21.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Under a plea agreement, U.S. attorneys will recommend that he receive six months' detention.
[08:25.600 --> 08:27.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Which basically means six months' imprisonment.
[08:28.240 --> 08:31.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Five years of probation and up to $3,000 in fines.
[08:32.480 --> 08:39.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, he also will have to tell investigators and the companies he is accused of defrauding exactly how he and Mitnick were able to penetrate security systems.
[08:39.240 --> 08:40.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, does this make any sense at all to you?
[08:40.800 --> 08:42.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: It happened five years ago.
[08:43.280 --> 08:46.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anything he tells them now is going to be so outdated, it's not going to be relevant.
[08:46.980 --> 08:52.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or, what could be even more frightening is that it's not outdated, and these companies have never even thought of increasing their security.
[08:53.020 --> 08:55.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Probably a very realistic scenario there.
[08:56.540 --> 08:56.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, boy.
[08:57.780 --> 09:01.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, De Payne, unlike Mitnick, has been free on bail the whole time.
[09:01.480 --> 09:03.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, that's an interesting, um, parallel there.
[09:04.960 --> 09:12.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, De Payne and Mitnick are known for their ability to hack computer systems and to social engineer employees responsible for security at high-tech companies.
[09:12.620 --> 09:16.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is according to this, this newspaper article from, yes, CNET.
[09:16.980 --> 09:25.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, when Mitnick was trying, uh, to use cell phones to break into computer systems, he called Nokia, posing as an employee, and asked that software be sent to him.
[09:25.740 --> 09:29.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: When that didn't work, De Payne posed as the fictitious employee's supervisor.
[09:29.700 --> 09:34.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Suspecting the request were a hoax, Nokia recorded the call and provided investigators with tapes.
[09:34.920 --> 09:36.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, according to this, they never even got anything.
[09:37.080 --> 09:39.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: They never even got anything in the first place.
[09:39.040 --> 09:39.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: They tried, though.
[09:40.240 --> 09:46.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Mitnick's exploits made national headlines after his capture was reported in the New York Times and, later in the book, Takedown.
[09:46.900 --> 09:50.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Unless they gloss over all the, uh, controversy that went around with that.
[09:50.480 --> 09:50.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[09:51.180 --> 09:52.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Which we won't get into yet again here.
[09:53.020 --> 09:55.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was reported in the book, but that's an interesting verb to it.
[09:55.720 --> 09:56.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, yeah.
[09:59.420 --> 10:01.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: U.S. attorneys fighting high-tech crime appeared to be on a roll.
[10:01.700 --> 10:02.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Here's something interesting.
[10:02.500 --> 10:10.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Two weeks ago, investigators tracked down the man they say posted a bogus Bloomberg story that caused a publicly traded company's stock to surge more than 30 points.
[10:12.060 --> 10:13.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course, no other details are given.
[10:14.800 --> 10:25.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: And last week, they identified the suspect in a case in which anonymous email that threatened the lives of court officials was posted on the Internet.
[10:25.720 --> 10:27.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Again, no details.
[10:28.480 --> 10:45.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Our offices and other offices around the country will be investigating when people cause damage to companies, infrastructure, and proprietary data, said Chris Painter, who is, uh, the, uh, the assistant district attorney, I believe, for, uh, uh, that's prosecuting both,
[10:45.580 --> 10:46.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: uh, Mitnick and De Payne.
[10:49.040 --> 10:52.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, he said these companies ought to have protection.
[10:52.340 --> 10:56.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, these companies ought to have brains, too, but that's, uh, that's something they'll just skip over.
[10:57.780 --> 10:59.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: They'll allow them to be completely wide open.
[11:01.240 --> 11:07.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: And when someone does figure out a way around their security system, make it as if they invented it in the first place.
[11:07.820 --> 11:13.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, speaking of, uh, wild concoctions and inventions, first I want to welcome, uh, Bernie S.
[11:13.360 --> 11:14.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: to the, uh, conversation.
[11:14.200 --> 11:14.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bernie, are you there?
[11:15.120 --> 11:15.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I am.
[11:15.580 --> 11:15.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[11:15.980 --> 11:16.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: How are you doing?
[11:16.820 --> 11:17.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Pretty good.
[11:17.140 --> 11:18.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Not that you're a wild concoction or a fantasy.
[11:18.980 --> 11:20.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was about to say, that's an interesting introduction.
[11:20.800 --> 11:21.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, I didn't mean it that way.
[11:21.920 --> 11:26.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, what I, what I do mean to do, however, is, uh, is, is get some, some federal documents.
[11:26.740 --> 11:29.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, Bernie, why don't you say hi to the folks while I go get the federal documents?
[11:30.040 --> 11:30.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi to the folks.
[11:32.840 --> 11:34.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, I've gotten the federal, no, I'm back now.
[11:34.640 --> 11:35.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've gotten the federal documents.
[11:36.300 --> 11:38.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I have them here in the envelope.
[11:39.760 --> 11:51.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: And for those of you who, uh, visited the 2600 website when it was up, and, uh, hopefully it will be up again soon, as soon as, uh, they figure out what's going on with, uh, with, uh, I don't know, a cable cut or something blowing up somewhere, uh, we'll,
[11:51.860 --> 11:53.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: uh, we'll have it up there again.
[11:54.560 --> 11:58.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: But the site is, well, you know, again, I'm telling people that, that can't hear me, so it's kind of pointless.
[11:58.920 --> 12:01.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: The site's there, it's just not connected to anything.
[12:01.880 --> 12:11.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, these are documents that we obtained having to do with the losses, the quote-unquote losses, that, uh, Kevin Mitnick, uh, was responsible for.
[12:12.260 --> 12:14.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: These were from many years ago.
[12:15.040 --> 12:17.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is something that, uh, was only recently released.
[12:18.640 --> 12:23.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, thus, we are now pursuing it, and, and trying to find out how true this is.
[12:23.800 --> 12:27.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bernie, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read these, and maybe you could tell me your impressions as I read them.
[12:27.920 --> 12:29.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Keeping it clean, of course.
[12:29.500 --> 12:29.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of course.
[12:29.740 --> 12:30.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's very important.
[12:30.620 --> 12:32.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is dated February 23rd, 1995.
[12:33.040 --> 12:36.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Remember, Mitnick was arrested on February 15th of that same year, so it was shortly thereafter.
[12:36.820 --> 12:37.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Comes from Novell.
[12:38.340 --> 12:44.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: As addressed to Kathleen Carson, the special agent of the FBI, who apparently requested these, uh, these letters from these companies.
[12:44.720 --> 12:50.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, dear special agent Carson, Novell is greatly relieved that Kevin Mitnick has been apprehended.
[12:50.300 --> 12:53.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: As you know, several types of source code were taken by Mitnick.
[12:53.880 --> 13:04.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: To attach a value of the source code taken is a very difficult thing to do, given that Novell's revenues, uh, exceed $2 billion a year.
[13:04.280 --> 13:09.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: However, the cost associated with the development of the source code is well in excess of $75 million.
[13:10.220 --> 13:10.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, well.
[13:10.800 --> 13:13.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: A, a more precise number would require additional research.
[13:13.780 --> 13:16.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you have any questions, please contact me, blah, blah, blah.
[13:16.860 --> 13:20.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Signed, Edwin, uh, Edward Morin, computer, uh, corporate security, rather.
[13:21.480 --> 13:23.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Any, uh, impressions of that, either Isaac or Bernie?
[13:24.340 --> 13:27.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, sounded like a dart board and a couple of sticky notes on it.
[13:28.300 --> 13:31.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just, you know, throw a dart and, ooh, $75 million, woo-hoo!
[13:31.720 --> 13:33.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, how do you think they arrived at that figure?
[13:33.780 --> 13:36.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was above, uh, $100 million and below $50 million.
[13:36.760 --> 13:37.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bernie, what do you think?
[13:38.060 --> 13:50.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I think they, uh, probably used a similar formula that was used, uh, uh, uh, in the development of the, uh, uh, uh, cost to create that 9-1-1 Bell South document several years ago.
[13:50.240 --> 13:50.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[13:50.460 --> 14:00.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Where they factored in the, uh, the annual salary of, uh, of an employee whose, uh, whose, uh, whose job was to write this one document and, apparently, to do nothing else all year.
[14:01.080 --> 14:07.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, the cost of the entire computer system and, and other things that were, uh, uh, uh, involved in the creation of this.
[14:07.580 --> 14:08.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: One, uh, one, uh, short document.
[14:09.280 --> 14:13.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, which was, I don't know, was that $75,000 or something or $50,000?
[14:13.760 --> 14:20.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, the, in the Neidorf case, and again, for those of you who can't hear us on the, uh, on the website, you might want to check, uh, the shows back then in 1990.
[14:20.340 --> 14:29.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: You'll see for yourself that, uh, we were talking to Craig back then, and he was going through his own version of hell, being charged with what seemed like an immense amount of money at the time.
[14:29.140 --> 14:34.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: $80,000 worth of damage by, by printing a document in, uh, in Phrack magazine.
[14:35.260 --> 14:40.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, and of course, the media thinking that, that meant that he was breaking into 9-1-1 and threatening lives.
[14:40.000 --> 14:50.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, on top of all that, after it was proven that, uh, the document was only worth $13 and was publicly available, the, uh, the expenses of, of, of fighting the government did not go away.
[14:50.880 --> 14:53.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I believe they last to this, to this very day.
[14:54.060 --> 14:57.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: We thought back then that $80,000 was a lot of money.
[14:57.000 --> 14:59.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, and now we're talking, we're talking in the millions.
[14:59.340 --> 15:01.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: In fact, we're talking well beyond in the millions.
[15:02.060 --> 15:04.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: A million, a million here, a million there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money.
[15:05.060 --> 15:05.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's right.
[15:06.080 --> 15:09.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's, uh, let's continue with the, uh, with the assessment here.
[15:09.260 --> 15:12.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is a confidential letter from, uh, Nokia mobile phones.
[15:13.240 --> 15:16.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it's not confidential anymore, folks, because it's, it's been released.
[15:17.160 --> 15:20.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, I'm just saying it's confidential because that's what they said at the time.
[15:20.160 --> 15:21.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's not confidential anymore.
[15:21.480 --> 15:22.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Was it printed on the letter?
[15:22.780 --> 15:25.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it sort of scrawled in handwriting confidential.
[15:25.520 --> 15:25.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, okay, I was wondering.
[15:25.900 --> 15:26.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was an afterthought.
[15:26.940 --> 15:29.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's like, by the way, FBI, don't tell anybody about this.
[15:29.140 --> 15:31.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you have to wonder, why don't they want anybody to know?
[15:31.380 --> 15:33.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: If he really did cause that kind of damage, why?
[15:33.240 --> 15:34.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: They want to keep it secret.
[15:34.380 --> 15:38.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, what's interesting about all this is that all these companies, without fail, seem to have done just that.
[15:38.700 --> 15:39.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: It is required.
[15:39.880 --> 15:40.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: It is required.
[15:40.820 --> 15:47.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I believe, Bernie, you might know the exact law, or at least what it's called, but it's required for a company to report to its stockholders a loss like this.
[15:48.000 --> 15:52.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it's some regulation promulgated by the Securities and Exchange Commission.
[15:52.740 --> 15:53.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[15:53.340 --> 15:53.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then they were right.
[15:54.100 --> 15:55.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're just down the road.
[15:55.060 --> 16:02.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: So if anybody down there is listening to us, run up to the studio and tell us exactly what law it is that these people are breaking by not reporting to their stockholders.
[16:02.720 --> 16:03.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[16:03.180 --> 16:03.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is from Nokia.
[16:04.940 --> 16:07.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Dear Ms. Carson, it's dated February 23rd, 1995.
[16:08.580 --> 16:10.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Regarding your telephone request...
[16:10.980 --> 16:12.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: This tells us something about the request.
[16:12.680 --> 16:25.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Regarding your telephone request of February 21st, asking for Nokia to put a value on the cost of the software stolen, together with an estimate of the cost of the disruption, I have provided initial estimates of them for you as detailed below.
[16:26.260 --> 16:34.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: A rough estimate of the development cost of stolen software and tools, including testing, is $7.5 million.
[16:35.600 --> 16:36.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: He stole the testing, too?
[16:37.140 --> 16:37.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sorry?
[16:37.960 --> 16:39.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: He stole the testing, too?
[16:39.000 --> 16:39.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: He stole the testing.
[16:39.900 --> 16:41.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know how he managed to do that.
[16:41.080 --> 16:52.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: The disruption to the Nokia mobile phones development community caused by the incidents resulted in our local networks being completely closed for a week and the external networks closed for one month.
[16:53.720 --> 16:54.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: How do you like that?
[16:55.120 --> 16:55.320]  Wow.
[16:55.480 --> 16:59.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Lost development time is estimated to have cost the company $7.5 million.
[16:59.620 --> 17:00.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's another $7.5 million.
[17:01.300 --> 17:01.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: On top of...
[17:01.560 --> 17:02.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: They like that number.
[17:02.580 --> 17:03.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's not bad.
[17:03.280 --> 17:10.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: And probably a further $120 million in lost revenue due to new developments being delayed in reaching the market.
[17:11.360 --> 17:16.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: There are some costs of disruption to our other divisions, Nokia Research and Nokia Telecommunications.
[17:16.080 --> 17:18.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: I have not yet been able to ascertain estimates for those divisions.
[17:19.000 --> 17:20.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: These could be provided in due course.
[17:21.620 --> 17:25.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: This would lead to a minimum loss estimated to total $135 million.
[17:25.760 --> 17:28.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: I hope this information satisfies your needs.
[17:28.380 --> 17:29.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sure it does.
[17:29.120 --> 17:32.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sincerely, John Talbot, Vice President of Engineering Support Center.
[17:33.680 --> 17:36.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, right away, you know, we're in the hundreds of millions of dollars here.
[17:36.860 --> 17:41.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just from somebody getting a hold of software they're not supposed to see.
[17:41.510 --> 17:42.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just having it.
[17:42.620 --> 17:43.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just looking at it.
[17:43.620 --> 17:52.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Was Mitnick ever accused of actually removing the only copy of any of these pieces of software?
[17:52.980 --> 18:01.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, but that's a very interesting lead-in to this next bit of documentation from Sun Microsystems, dated March 9, 1995.
[18:01.260 --> 18:02.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Listen to how they phrase things here.
[18:02.820 --> 18:12.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: As you are aware, Sun Microsystems Incorporated experienced a break-in of its computer systems located in our Los Angeles office on or about June 30, 1993.
[18:12.780 --> 18:20.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: During the break-in, a substantial portion of the source code of Sun Solaris 2.x software product was apparently copied and removed.
[18:20.640 --> 18:21.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Copied and removed?
[18:21.660 --> 18:22.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's what they say.
[18:22.580 --> 18:29.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, there is no evidence anyplace that I've ever seen in any court document that backs this up that says that anything was erased.
[18:29.020 --> 18:31.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know what they mean by removed.
[18:31.280 --> 18:31.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think...
[18:31.860 --> 18:34.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: It sounds to me like they're saying the copy was removed.
[18:34.760 --> 18:35.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's what I...
[18:35.460 --> 18:37.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, so they copied the file and then...
[18:37.400 --> 18:37.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, I see.
[18:38.180 --> 18:38.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Removed the copy.
[18:39.040 --> 18:40.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Then you could do that forever.
[18:40.240 --> 18:45.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can continuously remove things because of the way they decide to mangle the language.
[18:45.880 --> 18:49.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Solaris software is a UNIX-based product originally licensed by Sun from AT&T.
[18:49.860 --> 18:55.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: In March of 1994, Sun bought out its original license with AT&T with a lump sum payment of more than $80 million.
[18:55.700 --> 19:04.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: In addition, Sun has invested very heavily for more than 10 years in the continued development of the Solaris software and values the current product in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
[19:04.280 --> 19:04.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, wait a second.
[19:05.240 --> 19:09.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're claiming that Kevin Mitnick stole 10 years' worth of development in a UNIX environment.
[19:09.740 --> 19:13.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: And he somehow stole them buying the original license of AT&T.
[19:13.840 --> 19:15.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't understand the logic at all.
[19:15.420 --> 19:15.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, moving on.
[19:16.000 --> 19:17.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're just throwing numbers out here.
[19:17.540 --> 19:18.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're throwing numbers.
[19:18.140 --> 19:26.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, at the top of everything else, somebody showed me an interesting website, which, unfortunately, I don't have on me right now, that says that you can get Solaris source code for nothing.
[19:27.260 --> 19:31.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because they encourage people to look at it in educational settings.
[19:32.260 --> 19:34.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that's the ultimate irony right there.
[19:34.720 --> 19:38.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, that's just one indication of how these people are lying through their teeth.
[19:39.300 --> 19:43.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Emmanuel, do you have a copy of any of the correspondence from the FBI to these companies?
[19:44.460 --> 19:46.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Not in this room at the present time.
[19:46.600 --> 19:47.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Have you seen it?
[19:47.220 --> 19:51.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I cannot say on the air, but I will tell you, uh, off air.
[19:51.860 --> 19:52.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[19:52.440 --> 19:52.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[19:52.740 --> 19:58.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: It might be interesting to see in what way the FBI encouraged these companies to come up with these large figures.
[19:58.780 --> 20:03.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I do know that, uh, in at least some of the, uh, some of the instances, it was a phone call that was made.
[20:03.660 --> 20:08.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: But it's pretty obvious that, uh, they wanted them to pump up the numbers quite a bit.
[20:08.540 --> 20:08.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hmm.
[20:09.500 --> 20:10.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just to make a case.
[20:10.860 --> 20:12.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they certainly succeeded, didn't they?
[20:13.060 --> 20:13.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: I should say so.
[20:13.980 --> 20:23.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I got an, uh, an email from a reporter the other day asking me, uh, for some, some comments about, about these letters, which apparently have been getting widely distributed.
[20:24.040 --> 20:30.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, he was asking for some kind of an analogy to compare this to, for a layman to, so a layman can make sense of this.
[20:31.220 --> 20:45.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the best analogy I could come up with is if I, uh, if I went into a movie theater with, uh, with a new digital camcorder that was really, really good, that was so good that it could make an exact copy of a movie.
[20:45.780 --> 20:55.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, and say I went into a movie theater and, and, and made, and watched and made a copy of, uh, George Lucas' new, uh, $300 million extravaganza.
[20:55.600 --> 21:00.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course, the, the, the cost of this movie, a large part of it is their promotional and advertising costs.
[21:01.920 --> 21:02.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, that sort of thing.
[21:03.360 --> 21:05.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, I made an exact copy of this movie.
[21:06.100 --> 21:16.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, in, in, in doing so, um, I, all of the, uh, the ushers and, and, uh, security folks at the movie theater were, were just goofing off, sleeping, et cetera.
[21:17.300 --> 21:19.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, and then I left with this, uh, with this tape.
[21:19.680 --> 21:25.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: I took it home and I watched it, uh, had fun with it, watched it forwards, backwards, whatever, invited a few friends over to watch it.
[21:25.580 --> 21:27.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Didn't sell any copies of this tape to anybody.
[21:28.000 --> 21:32.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, didn't, uh, didn't take any original, original copies of the movie from many theaters.
[21:32.700 --> 21:37.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Didn't affect, uh, Lucasfilm's, uh, profits in any way.
[21:38.220 --> 21:39.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, somebody ratted me out.
[21:40.120 --> 21:43.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: A snitch said, hey, I heard this guy had, uh, had a copy of this movie.
[21:43.800 --> 21:44.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: And so I'm raided.
[21:44.940 --> 21:49.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, the FBI charges me with stealing the movie.
[21:50.200 --> 21:56.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, various accounts of, you know, how many times I watched the movie or showed it to other people, that sort of thing.
[21:56.440 --> 22:08.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, not only am I convicted, but I'm, but I'm found to, uh, to cause damages, um, in the area of about $300 million for, uh, for stealing the movie.
[22:08.600 --> 22:09.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Mercy me.
[22:09.640 --> 22:14.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, this is, this is the type of thinking that we're dealing with with the federal government.
[22:14.200 --> 22:16.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: They don't think this, this, these losses occurred.
[22:16.420 --> 22:26.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, Bernie, I think, I think maybe even went too far here because, um, you know, I, I think what Kevin had was not as good as the original because he didn't have the same computer system to run it on.
[22:26.640 --> 22:28.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: He didn't have the staff behind the whole thing.
[22:28.920 --> 22:39.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: He basically, I think he had the equivalent of if he walked into that theater with just a regular high eight camcorder and recorded it for your own personal enjoyment so you could learn something about, uh, you know, all the different shots in the film.
[22:39.300 --> 22:42.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or he was watching it at home on a black and white, uh, TV set or something.
[22:42.580 --> 22:42.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sure.
[22:42.920 --> 22:52.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: But not only do I have to pay for the $300 for the movie, but I have to pay for the training of new ushers at the movie theater.
[22:52.520 --> 22:52.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[22:53.180 --> 22:59.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, and, and pay their salaries on top of that because they weren't doing their job when I went in there.
[23:00.560 --> 23:08.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's the only analogy I could come up with for, for a layman that, uh, that, that, that kind of showed the ludic, how ludicrous this is.
[23:08.600 --> 23:14.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: The real crime here is that it took four years for, for these documents to surface, for us to see exactly what they were saying.
[23:14.360 --> 23:20.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: And now that we've seen it, now that we, it's in front of us, we know it's as ridiculous as we've been saying all along.
[23:20.600 --> 23:25.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, that, uh, hundreds of millions of dollars of damage were caused by somebody looking at software.
[23:25.500 --> 23:27.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now here's, here's the final letter.
[23:27.260 --> 23:28.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: And this comes from Fujitsu.
[23:29.440 --> 23:30.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Am I pronouncing that right?
[23:31.260 --> 23:32.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I have no idea.
[23:32.300 --> 23:33.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, well, we all know the name of the company.
[23:33.700 --> 23:34.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Don't look at me.
[23:34.140 --> 23:36.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, congratulations on the arrest of Kevin Mitnick.
[23:36.300 --> 23:47.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Pursuant to your request, I asked our cellular group to assess the damages caused to Fujitsu Network Transmission Systems, Inc., FNTS, by Mitnick's theft of the source code for the PCX telephone.
[23:47.400 --> 23:52.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: If anybody out there has a PCX telephone or knows what a PCX telephone is, I'd like to hear about it.
[23:52.760 --> 23:54.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'd like to know exactly how this affected you.
[23:54.600 --> 23:56.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the information provided to me is as follows.
[23:56.760 --> 23:59.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Software development expenses, $1,100,000.
[24:00.240 --> 24:04.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, research and development expenses, let's just say a million dollars.
[24:04.140 --> 24:06.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Total of $2,100,000.
[24:07.260 --> 24:21.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Additionally, additionally attached is a worksheet showing what it would, and then in parentheses, will, cost FNTS to recall the PCX phones in the marketplace if the source code has been compromised or is not safe.
[24:22.000 --> 24:23.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they attach a little worksheet here.
[24:23.700 --> 24:25.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Basically, they, uh, they itemize it.
[24:26.180 --> 24:28.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Each phone shipping $17.31.
[24:29.180 --> 24:32.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, a, uh, pre-check, $4.
[24:32.060 --> 24:34.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Labor to upgrade software, $8.50.
[24:35.640 --> 24:37.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: QC cost, $4.
[24:37.120 --> 24:39.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Packing and handling labor, $6.40.
[24:39.720 --> 24:40.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Customer handling, $15.
[24:41.520 --> 24:43.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: PCX admin overhead, $2.
[24:44.140 --> 24:47.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: A total of $57.21 per unit.
[24:47.480 --> 24:49.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: 96,441 units.
[24:50.380 --> 24:54.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Grand total, $5,517,389.61.
[24:54.540 --> 24:58.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sense for recalling the PCX phones.
[24:58.520 --> 24:59.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: No fractions of sense?
[24:59.500 --> 25:01.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Probably nobody has anymore.
[25:02.500 --> 25:04.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Probably was completely useless back then as well.
[25:04.480 --> 25:05.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I'd like to know.
[25:05.140 --> 25:06.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I'm keeping an open mind on this.
[25:06.300 --> 25:07.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bernie, you're a phone person.
[25:07.380 --> 25:08.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Have you ever heard of the PCX phone?
[25:08.900 --> 25:09.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've not.
[25:09.300 --> 25:16.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: I did a search on the Internet, and all I could find was some Dutch, uh, Dutch reference to it, which I couldn't read, unfortunately, because I don't know Flemish.
[25:16.500 --> 25:18.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, I don't think it's a current model.
[25:19.160 --> 25:23.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it would be interesting, though, to see, uh, if anybody who owns one of these actually had their phone recalled.
[25:24.280 --> 25:30.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And from reading a letter from Nokia, it, it, I think the word safety was, uh, was, uh, brought up here.
[25:30.860 --> 25:35.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wasn't it, uh, something to the, uh, oh, no, this is the one that had the, uh, the recall.
[25:36.000 --> 25:36.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Let me find it here.
[25:36.900 --> 25:39.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Something to do with the, uh, here we go.
[25:39.260 --> 25:39.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Here we go.
[25:39.580 --> 25:45.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, recall the PCX phones in the marketplace if the source code has been compromised or is not safe.
[25:46.180 --> 25:48.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, what are they saying?
[25:48.360 --> 25:56.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are they saying that, that the Mitnick, um, altered the source code that was, was then programmed into the firmware of these phones, and those phones became unsafe to handle?
[25:57.060 --> 26:00.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: What, what were they saying, that the source code has been compromised or is not safe?
[26:01.960 --> 26:02.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[26:02.680 --> 26:06.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a pretty scary thought that, uh, somebody could make the phone into a dangerous object.
[26:06.680 --> 26:06.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sure.
[26:07.300 --> 26:09.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's really, uh, pretty frightening.
[26:09.580 --> 26:14.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: I have a theory about why these documents were not released until after Kevin pled guilty.
[26:14.520 --> 26:15.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: And why's that?
[26:16.000 --> 26:21.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, um, once you plead guilty, the ball is completely in the Fed's court as far as sentencing goes.
[26:22.520 --> 26:32.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, unlike in a trial situation where evidentiary rules apply, where you have to actually prove what you're claiming.
[26:35.080 --> 26:35.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[26:36.280 --> 26:38.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, where you have to actually prove what you're claiming.
[26:38.720 --> 26:43.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, in a sentencing hearing, they don't have to prove what they're saying.
[26:43.600 --> 26:45.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: They, they can just come up with estimates.
[26:45.700 --> 26:47.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, they tried to do that in my case as well.
[26:48.080 --> 26:58.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, just estimate, like, you know, I, I made, uh, you know, 2,000 crystals available to people, which could have been, you know, used in red boxes to create so much fraud, that sort of thing.
[26:58.920 --> 27:04.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Even though they admitted there were no victims, they, they said that they could estimate that there could have been that many.
[27:04.640 --> 27:19.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Anyway, um, these, uh, these letters surfaced after he pled guilty, which indicates to me that, uh, it doesn't matter what anybody says about them now, because they don't have to prove these actual losses.
[27:19.700 --> 27:24.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Had it gone to a trial, they would have actually had to itemize these, these losses.
[27:24.440 --> 27:33.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: The, the company representatives would have had to actually document and, and testify under oath that these, that these losses were true and actual.
[27:33.880 --> 27:39.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, um, it's interesting, these were only released until after the guilty plea, uh, was made.
[27:39.960 --> 27:51.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, they may be able to get away with that in court, you know, they may be able to not have to justify it, but there's still the people outside the court that are getting, uh, pretty angry by all this, and I think are, are demanding some answers, and that's,
[27:52.120 --> 27:54.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: that's what the next step of this whole thing is going to be.
[27:54.940 --> 28:02.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Kevin's sentencing is, is on, uh, June 14th, and we have to, um, we have to prepare for the next step.
[28:02.800 --> 28:06.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, before we take the next step, I want to add somebody into, uh, the, uh, the mix here.
[28:06.780 --> 28:08.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's get a, get a dial tone.
[28:08.480 --> 28:10.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hopefully, Bernie, I won't lose you, but if I do, I'll call you right back.
[28:12.100 --> 28:12.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Do you have a dial tone?
[28:13.340 --> 28:16.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, I'm going to dial this off the air.
[28:18.720 --> 28:20.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: And hopefully, we'll go right through.
[28:23.820 --> 28:25.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, we should have a phone ringing now.
[28:31.350 --> 28:32.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't hear any ringing.
[28:32.570 --> 28:34.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't either, but...
[28:34.190 --> 28:35.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's a Sprint phone.
[28:35.630 --> 28:36.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's probably why it takes so long.
[28:37.610 --> 28:38.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: I've noticed that.
[28:38.450 --> 28:38.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[28:38.550 --> 28:41.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: It takes, like, several seconds for me to get a ring back with Sprint PCS.
[28:41.290 --> 28:41.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: It does.
[28:42.290 --> 28:42.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello?
[28:43.070 --> 28:43.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, it's Pam.
[28:44.170 --> 28:45.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hey, it is Pam.
[28:45.190 --> 28:45.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: How are you doing, Pam?
[28:45.970 --> 28:47.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Welcome to the, uh, radio show.
[28:47.870 --> 28:48.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey.
[28:48.910 --> 28:49.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[28:49.570 --> 28:49.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, Pam.
[28:49.970 --> 28:50.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bernie.
[28:50.450 --> 28:51.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bernie is with us as well.
[28:51.710 --> 28:52.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Bernie.
[28:52.750 --> 28:54.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: And Isaac is over there on the far corner of the room.
[28:55.070 --> 28:55.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm over yonder.
[28:55.850 --> 28:56.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello.
[28:56.430 --> 28:56.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, Isaac.
[28:57.630 --> 29:03.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, we are just at the point where we've gone over all the, um, the tainted evidence, in our opinion.
[29:04.410 --> 29:08.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: And we're about to, uh, to launch into what the future actions will be.
[29:09.070 --> 29:09.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[29:09.610 --> 29:13.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: As far as the whole, uh, the whole Free Kevin movement, what the next step is.
[29:14.350 --> 29:25.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it's basically going to be a nationwide thing, unlike, uh, where we were planning demonstrations in your case, Bernie, where we were going to march right outside the prison where you were and, and demand that you be broken out immediately.
[29:25.770 --> 29:26.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right?
[29:26.190 --> 29:27.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: They, they beat us to it.
[29:28.330 --> 29:33.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: How, how, how brief period of time was there between where we were going to go down and where you actually got released?
[29:33.590 --> 29:34.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Was it a week?
[29:34.150 --> 29:36.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it was, uh, a couple days and a weekend.
[29:37.050 --> 29:37.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's it.
[29:37.570 --> 29:41.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it was only a couple of, couple, three, uh, actual business days.
[29:41.450 --> 29:41.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[29:41.690 --> 29:51.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: They saw this thing was coming and they decided that, uh, my theory is that the, uh, prison officials decided they didn't want a big incident.
[29:51.610 --> 30:03.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, um, in conjunction with, uh, my attorney arguing before the judge, uh, uh, an order, uh, a very strange order was issued to just release me.
[30:03.350 --> 30:03.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[30:03.730 --> 30:07.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: It wasn't like, uh, it was no case law on this sort of thing.
[30:07.130 --> 30:09.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: It could just sort of sign this emergency order that I may release.
[30:09.650 --> 30:10.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was very unusual.
[30:10.370 --> 30:11.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was very spacey, yeah.
[30:11.790 --> 30:13.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: The guards were, the guards were stunned.
[30:13.190 --> 30:14.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're like, this has never happened before, sort of thing.
[30:15.070 --> 30:20.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I have to say that, that I think the threat of this protest, uh, really carried some weight in my case.
[30:21.070 --> 30:27.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Now, granted, I was already locked up several months past, past what my release date could have been.
[30:27.650 --> 30:30.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I should have been paroled and I hadn't even been interviewed by.
[30:30.130 --> 30:33.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's called for, uh, the parole board for months.
[30:33.190 --> 30:34.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: There was some mysterious delay.
[30:34.790 --> 30:35.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: It kept getting delayed.
[30:36.050 --> 30:36.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know why.
[30:37.850 --> 30:49.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, but in any case, uh, I think, uh, I think the threat of busloads of, uh, of, off-the-hook listeners, uh, coming to surround the prison, uh, might have had, uh, something to do with my release date.
[30:49.130 --> 30:51.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: That was a pretty scary thought for, for everybody.
[30:51.750 --> 30:52.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, but...
[30:52.170 --> 30:52.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: Very scary.
[30:52.730 --> 30:52.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[30:53.130 --> 30:56.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, we had gotten to the point of calling the bus companies and getting, getting an estimate.
[30:56.950 --> 30:58.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, I got estimates.
[30:58.330 --> 30:58.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, you got estimates.
[30:59.290 --> 30:59.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[30:59.530 --> 31:00.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, and they were pretty reasonable, weren't they?
[31:01.070 --> 31:01.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: They weren't that bad.
[31:01.610 --> 31:01.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[31:02.850 --> 31:04.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, yeah, we, we, we meant it.
[31:04.510 --> 31:05.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: We were going to do it.
[31:05.290 --> 31:09.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: We would have done it, but they, they had to let you out beforehand, so we never found out for sure.
[31:09.490 --> 31:09.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: But this...
[31:09.890 --> 31:10.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was pretty upset about it, actually.
[31:11.070 --> 31:11.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: I, I was concerned.
[31:11.950 --> 31:16.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: I almost didn't want the thing to happen because, uh, I was afraid some other people were going to get locked up.
[31:16.450 --> 31:16.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[31:16.550 --> 31:18.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I didn't want anybody else to get locked up.
[31:18.470 --> 31:19.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
[31:19.210 --> 31:21.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, I, I really breathed this eye of relief for several reasons.
[31:22.390 --> 31:24.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, so, anyway, go ahead.
[31:24.310 --> 31:31.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, what we're, what we're planning now is something a little bit different with the same basic idea as, as the Merrimack's protest last summer.
[31:32.190 --> 31:34.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, this involves federal courthouses.
[31:34.930 --> 31:38.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Federal courthouses are, of course, where this kind of justice is handed down.
[31:38.030 --> 31:41.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, and they tend to be in just about every major city.
[31:41.370 --> 31:46.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, interestingly enough, also in every major city are, guess what, 2,600 meetings.
[31:46.230 --> 31:48.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, we decided to merge the two.
[31:48.670 --> 32:03.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: And on June 4th, which is the first Friday of, of June, uh, before the 2,600 meeting of whatever city you happen to be in, there will be a demonstration or a leaflet handout or whatever you want to call it.
[32:03.350 --> 32:07.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and that will take place outside your local federal courthouse.
[32:08.030 --> 32:12.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're going to be providing, um, all kinds of, of literature, pamphlets, things to hand out.
[32:12.890 --> 32:16.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: And basically, the idea is to educate people on the Mitnick case.
[32:16.410 --> 32:23.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, he's, he's pleaded guilty, uh, but that does not mean that he has to go back to prison and spend another year there.
[32:23.510 --> 32:34.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: It does not mean that he has to, for the next three years of his life, have every single movement of his scrutinized and not be allowed to even talk about computers, which is one of the many conditions that he's being, uh, threatened with.
[32:34.770 --> 32:37.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: The judge has some leeway here.
[32:37.130 --> 32:40.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: She can recommend that he be sent to a halfway house immediately.
[32:40.930 --> 32:41.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's on June 14th.
[32:42.070 --> 32:45.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: She can say that, that, uh, he served enough time, put him in a halfway house.
[32:46.010 --> 32:53.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: And when you're in a halfway house, it's still, you're still locked up, but at least you can walk around, you can see the outdoors, you can, you can talk to people.
[32:53.310 --> 32:55.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's, there's some degree of freedom there.
[32:55.830 --> 32:59.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that's, that's a very reasonable thing to be, to be pushing for.
[32:59.770 --> 33:02.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think anything less is, is tantamount to torture.
[33:03.290 --> 33:05.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that is what we are out there for.
[33:05.310 --> 33:06.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: That is what we're, we're protesting.
[33:06.670 --> 33:08.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's what we're trying to educate people on.
[33:09.710 --> 33:16.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, um, basically from the, from the period of time between now and then, we're going to be getting the word out about that.
[33:16.150 --> 33:21.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're going to be organizing in all these different cities and we'll have a full list up on the website when the website does come back.
[33:22.250 --> 33:24.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, that's pretty much where, where it stands.
[33:24.870 --> 33:26.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that this coming Friday?
[33:26.330 --> 33:28.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, it's the first Friday of, of June.
[33:28.450 --> 33:28.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[33:29.070 --> 33:29.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[33:29.310 --> 33:32.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: So we have, we have a full six weeks or so to organize.
[33:32.490 --> 33:42.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the first Friday of May though, we're going to be sort of, um, having meetings all in various parts of the country, talking about this and, and getting our act together and starting to plan.
[33:44.870 --> 33:45.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's great.
[33:46.570 --> 33:49.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, um, that's, that's where things go.
[33:49.530 --> 33:51.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Can I mention what I think we should do tomorrow?
[33:52.050 --> 33:52.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, go ahead.
[33:53.610 --> 34:03.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, in advance of all this stuff in May and June, um, I'm holding a protest tomorrow at the e-commerce convention at Javits Center.
[34:03.930 --> 34:09.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, anybody who'd like to show up, has free time, should probably show up around 10 a.m.
[34:10.310 --> 34:13.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: across the street from Javits Center at the Concrete Garden.
[34:14.330 --> 34:18.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: The first eight people that show up can wear a Free Kevin t-shirt.
[34:19.530 --> 34:22.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wait, but there's, there's, there's nine letters in a space in Free Kevin.
[34:23.150 --> 34:23.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[34:24.550 --> 34:26.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Two of the t-shirts are already taken.
[34:26.070 --> 34:26.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, okay.
[34:26.630 --> 34:26.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[34:27.510 --> 34:29.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just wanted to, to clarify that.
[34:29.530 --> 34:33.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, the t-shirts that are taken are one of the letter E's and the letter V.
[34:34.030 --> 34:37.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: We did this at the last 2600 meeting, but somehow we lost an R, so...
[34:37.730 --> 34:38.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: The R is back.
[34:38.690 --> 34:39.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: The R is back.
[34:39.370 --> 34:39.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: We found...
[34:39.790 --> 34:40.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's stuck in my laundry room.
[34:40.570 --> 34:47.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: We found the R, and, uh, we're going to, I think, try that again also at the next 2600 meeting in New York, but, uh, tomorrow at the Javits Center.
[34:47.390 --> 34:48.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: You want to give that information one more time, Pam?
[34:49.230 --> 34:49.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[34:49.670 --> 34:50.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: 10 a.m.
[34:50.250 --> 34:50.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: at Javits Center.
[34:51.450 --> 34:54.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, actually, the Javits Center Exposition opens at 11.
[34:55.170 --> 34:56.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: So 10 a.m.
[34:56.070 --> 35:05.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: is to set up, put on t-shirts, take some external photographs in front of Javits, which I actually have from Internet World, where we had five people show up.
[35:05.150 --> 35:08.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, looking for a little bit better response, even with this late notice.
[35:09.610 --> 35:19.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, anybody else who shows up besides the first eight, wear black or gold, because the Free Kevin shirts are gold with black letters, just like the bumper stickers.
[35:20.050 --> 35:20.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[35:20.670 --> 35:24.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: That sounds like a worthwhile endeavor, and we'll give that information a little bit later on in the show as well.
[35:25.010 --> 35:25.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're going to take some phone calls.
[35:25.990 --> 35:26.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: One last thing, Kevin, Eric?
[35:26.830 --> 35:27.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, go ahead.
[35:27.630 --> 35:33.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, one last thing is that I think we'll come back out to that concrete pavilion around 1 o'clock.
[35:33.630 --> 35:42.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: So if anyone wants to join the protest later, like during their lunch, uh, they could come from 1 at 1 o'clock in the concrete garden, and they'd be done by 2.
[35:43.990 --> 35:44.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[35:44.950 --> 35:47.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[35:47.650 --> 35:56.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, if you have any questions about the upcoming demonstrations or, uh, the, uh, documentation that we read out over the air just a little while ago, or anything else, uh, please give us a call.
[35:56.730 --> 35:57.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's what we're here for.
[35:58.470 --> 36:00.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's take the first phone call.
[36:01.230 --> 36:01.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[36:02.090 --> 36:02.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the air.
[36:02.630 --> 36:04.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, two questions.
[36:04.410 --> 36:04.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi, Bernie.
[36:05.070 --> 36:05.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: How are you doing?
[36:05.850 --> 36:06.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[36:06.510 --> 36:06.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[36:06.970 --> 36:07.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Cito, hi.
[36:08.230 --> 36:14.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, let's see, uh, the, uh, e-commerce, is the person that's still on who mentioned the e-commerce convention?
[36:15.410 --> 36:15.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[36:16.030 --> 36:21.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: I was just curious about that if, uh, has there been a decision made about the taxation of e-commerce?
[36:22.230 --> 36:22.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry?
[36:23.110 --> 36:28.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Has there been any decision made about taxation of e-commerce, or is that something that's going to happen at this convention, possibly?
[36:28.890 --> 36:29.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea.
[36:29.750 --> 36:32.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, are you, are you going to the convention?
[36:33.310 --> 36:34.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm protesting at the convention.
[36:35.210 --> 36:36.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, okay, okay.
[36:36.550 --> 36:49.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm just curious about it, because it's a really, it's a really important issue, that there should not be any kind of money taxation imposed on any net or web activities, because once you start one, you know, the government will begin to look for charging fees.
[36:49.470 --> 36:50.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's...
[36:50.010 --> 36:50.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are you going to the convention?
[36:51.210 --> 36:52.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: I didn't even know about it.
[36:52.830 --> 36:53.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh.
[36:53.150 --> 36:53.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, now you do.
[36:54.170 --> 36:55.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now that you know about it, are you going to go?
[36:55.810 --> 36:59.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now I will, if I can get, uh, some sort of, uh, comp ticket, I will, but yeah.
[36:59.430 --> 37:02.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Free passes will be available to anybody who shows up.
[37:02.550 --> 37:03.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: Free passes.
[37:03.270 --> 37:03.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, and the other...
[37:03.890 --> 37:04.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've got free passes.
[37:05.110 --> 37:10.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: The other question was, um, the judge, do you happen to know who the, what the judge's name is for Kevin?
[37:10.330 --> 37:11.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, Marianna Faltzer.
[37:11.830 --> 37:12.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Say the surname?
[37:12.310 --> 37:14.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, Faltzer, you want me to spell that?
[37:14.790 --> 37:17.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'll have to, I'll have to look up a piece of documentation for that.
[37:17.890 --> 37:18.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, I'll get it.
[37:18.730 --> 37:20.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, from Los Angeles?
[37:20.990 --> 37:21.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[37:21.990 --> 37:22.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[37:22.270 --> 37:22.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Like Seltzer.
[37:22.850 --> 37:38.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: We talked about, um, I kind of remember talking about something about a year ago, where the only government that has recognized, uh, the, the hacker as someone that might possibly be a source of genius was Netanyahu, uh, having pardoned a couple of people.
[37:39.130 --> 37:39.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you remember that case?
[37:40.350 --> 37:42.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know if he pardoned them, but he did refer to them as very good.
[37:43.270 --> 37:43.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Damn good.
[37:44.150 --> 37:44.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Damn good.
[37:44.830 --> 37:45.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: And he's got a great name.
[37:46.150 --> 38:02.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just wondered if, I mean, if it, before he, uh, might be, uh, out of office on May, uh, 14th, I think their election is, or 16th, I forget the day of their election, that if there's any, uh, use, if he has any way of liaising with the, uh, judge, I was just sort of comparing surnames.
[38:02.630 --> 38:06.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, um, I, I have his phone number, and, um, I will fax it to you.
[38:06.810 --> 38:09.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: I remember trying to do that last time, and I don't think I had your fax.
[38:09.890 --> 38:12.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, okay, first of all, you're talking about the judge's phone number?
[38:12.490 --> 38:13.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, Netanyahu's.
[38:13.630 --> 38:16.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, well, I don't need Netanyahu's phone number, do I?
[38:17.970 --> 38:23.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Last time you had asked, we talked something about this, and you had asked me if I knew how to get in touch with him.
[38:23.670 --> 38:28.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, okay, well, pass a message on for me, you know, to endorse Kevin, and, you know.
[38:28.910 --> 38:30.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: It might have been more prominent at the time.
[38:30.770 --> 38:34.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, well, anyway, if you need my fax number, it's 516-474-2677.
[38:34.490 --> 38:36.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's actually the, uh, 2600 fax number.
[38:37.090 --> 38:43.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, feel free to fax those, uh, sensitive documents and anything else you might, uh, you might find right over to us, and we'll do what's appropriate.
[38:44.350 --> 38:45.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks for calling.
[38:45.130 --> 38:47.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's move on to our next listener phone call.
[38:47.130 --> 38:47.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[38:47.610 --> 38:48.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the air.
[38:48.350 --> 38:48.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[38:49.010 --> 38:49.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: How did I know?
[38:49.850 --> 38:50.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was...
[38:50.290 --> 38:51.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Make it, make it, make it...
[38:51.290 --> 38:51.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, I'll make it quick.
[38:51.890 --> 38:53.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: ...quicker than I can possibly imagine.
[38:53.490 --> 38:53.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[38:53.650 --> 38:54.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: I wanted to mention the following thing.
[38:54.890 --> 38:55.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[38:55.230 --> 38:57.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: Dell Atlantic phones are becoming very annoying.
[38:57.570 --> 38:58.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know what the new ones do now?
[38:59.670 --> 39:00.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: What's that?
[39:00.210 --> 39:04.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: They go, they, and when you dial your number, you know how it used to say, thank you for using a Dell Atlantic payphone?
[39:04.970 --> 39:06.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: They say all kinds of different things.
[39:06.470 --> 39:07.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: They've been doing this for years.
[39:07.190 --> 39:12.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, no, it still says that, but it still says it in a different voice, and now it just dials the number that you dialed.
[39:12.930 --> 39:13.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[39:13.310 --> 39:17.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it takes an extra amount of time to say, thank you for using a Dell Atlantic payphone.
[39:18.230 --> 39:21.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Then, it just dials what you've dialed.
[39:21.430 --> 39:21.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[39:22.170 --> 39:24.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: So it re-dials, in other words, like a Coca does.
[39:24.670 --> 39:24.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[39:24.750 --> 39:30.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, thank you for the email on AT&T that puts through third-number calls without asking.
[39:31.230 --> 39:31.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[39:32.170 --> 39:35.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the fact that hotels charge the number that you've called.
[39:35.730 --> 39:36.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've mentioned this before.
[39:37.390 --> 39:40.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just thought, Bernie, you'd be interested in that.
[39:40.810 --> 39:43.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: I thought you... you didn't know about that, did you?
[39:44.850 --> 39:46.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I think it's been going on for years.
[39:47.070 --> 39:50.950]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, it has been going on for years, and I think it's a practice that I think they should stop.
[39:51.710 --> 39:52.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, why don't you tell them to?
[39:52.990 --> 39:55.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I think... I don't know who to tell.
[39:55.530 --> 39:59.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess the only way to do it is, like Emmanuel said, for people to do it and then, you know, just like...
[40:00.710 --> 40:02.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's an FCC issue.
[40:02.750 --> 40:05.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Go down there in person and tell them to stop.
[40:05.610 --> 40:06.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: They'll stop.
[40:07.490 --> 40:10.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, let's move on to our next phone call.
[40:11.050 --> 40:12.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[40:13.370 --> 40:15.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, well, I'd like to say a few things.
[40:16.190 --> 40:21.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: First of all, about the protest about tomorrow on e-commerce.
[40:21.010 --> 40:21.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[40:22.290 --> 40:24.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: The WBAI board has hit us again.
[40:24.350 --> 40:25.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sorry, you want to repeat that sentence?
[40:26.190 --> 40:28.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I just want to say a few things.
[40:28.670 --> 40:31.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: The first one about the protest tomorrow at the Javits Center.
[40:32.650 --> 40:43.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: First of all, I mean, as far as I believe is most of the listeners of this radio station are teenagers who basically go to school at that time.
[40:43.970 --> 40:45.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: So wouldn't 10 a.m.
[40:45.910 --> 40:46.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: be a little inappropriate?
[40:47.390 --> 40:48.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we didn't say 10 a.m.
[40:48.610 --> 40:51.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think we're thinking more like around 2 or so, 1 or 2.
[40:51.990 --> 40:53.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I said 10 a.m.
[40:53.930 --> 40:55.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: if you can make it then.
[40:55.230 --> 40:55.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's when we're going to start.
[40:56.010 --> 40:57.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're talking about tomorrow?
[40:57.530 --> 40:57.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[40:57.890 --> 41:00.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, I thought you were talking about the protest in June.
[41:00.750 --> 41:01.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: The reason it's 10 a.m.
[41:01.850 --> 41:03.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: tomorrow is because that's when the show is.
[41:03.350 --> 41:03.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's when they...
[41:03.950 --> 41:04.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[41:04.550 --> 41:05.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: How long does this go for?
[41:05.610 --> 41:06.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: It goes till 5.
[41:07.250 --> 41:13.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: If somebody shows up at 2 to take my bag of t-shirts, they can continue protesting until 5.
[41:14.710 --> 41:16.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: I need to leave at 3.
[41:17.330 --> 41:18.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[41:18.430 --> 41:37.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: And also, I just want to say that about the whole Kevin thing is even if he does get free by the authorities, I mean, basically that's only part of the battle because we still have to fight so this won't ever happen again.
[41:37.270 --> 41:39.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, this already happened to numerous people.
[41:39.790 --> 41:44.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, with the 9-1-1 thing with Bernie and Kevin right now.
[41:44.070 --> 41:50.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it's happening to other people too, cases that I can't talk about right now because they're very volatile but is happening all over the place.
[41:51.130 --> 41:59.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: It will keep happening until people say something, until people show that they're not going to put up with this anymore, that these people are being treated unfairly.
[41:59.450 --> 42:03.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're being tortured for things that are, at most, minor offenses.
[42:04.350 --> 42:05.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you have to ask why.
[42:05.910 --> 42:07.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Why are they being dealt with so savagely?
[42:07.910 --> 42:17.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Why do the big corporations have so much of a pull to imprison some of our smartest people for such a long period of time with some really evil criminals?
[42:17.430 --> 42:22.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, is it just to send a message to the rest of us to stop asking questions?
[42:23.010 --> 42:25.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, yeah, I guess they do it out of fear.
[42:26.730 --> 42:31.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're afraid that, since there's somebody who knows more than them, it could be a threat.
[42:32.690 --> 42:35.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, also, one last thing.
[42:36.610 --> 42:53.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: The whole tone of your show today about also how the $18 million charges against Mitnick were brought up, I didn't really like the tone of it because, as far as I think, it seemed like...
[42:53.130 --> 43:02.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I knew you didn't mean this, but it seemed to me like the tone was that Mitnick was guilty of...
[43:02.310 --> 43:14.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: has actually been proven of breaking into the computers of those companies when it wasn't even proven that he actually accessed the computers of Novell and Fujitsu and all those companies.
[43:14.230 --> 43:17.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, no, I certainly didn't mean that kind of a tone, definitely not.
[43:18.450 --> 43:22.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Kevin has not been proven to have broken into any computer, any place, what he has been...
[43:22.950 --> 43:25.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: what he has admitted to.
[43:25.450 --> 43:31.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, again, we have to stress that when you admit guilt to something, it does not always mean the same thing as being guilty, and Bernie S.
[43:31.170 --> 43:32.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: can definitely attest to that.
[43:32.890 --> 43:42.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, basically, he has admitted to having access, having source code that did not belong to him, and pretending he was somebody that he was not.
[43:43.190 --> 43:51.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's interesting to note that the whole case with Shimomura, with his computer system, the whole thing that got Kevin arrested in the first place, there was no charge ever made of that.
[43:51.570 --> 43:55.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was no charge ever made of his having the credit card numbers from Netcom.
[43:55.890 --> 44:02.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was no charge made for any kind of computer break-in that has been widely spread by the media.
[44:02.890 --> 44:15.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, you have to ask yourself, five years in prison, and two years on the run, and three years more of hell afterwards, for having copies of software, and for lying on the telephone.
[44:15.570 --> 44:16.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: How is that right?
[44:17.590 --> 44:20.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I guess we can all agree that it sucks.
[44:20.490 --> 44:21.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[44:21.170 --> 44:22.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, good luck.
[44:22.430 --> 44:22.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's definitely true.
[44:23.630 --> 44:23.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: And bye.
[44:24.230 --> 44:25.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[44:25.410 --> 44:25.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bye.
[44:26.010 --> 44:27.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: And let's move on.
[44:27.230 --> 44:29.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: 212-209-2900.
[44:29.970 --> 44:30.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[44:30.670 --> 44:31.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the air.
[44:31.430 --> 44:32.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I just wanted to mention about the camera.
[44:32.750 --> 44:33.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, listen, listen, listen.
[44:33.830 --> 44:36.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: You have to stop hogging the phone lines.
[44:37.330 --> 44:38.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's really annoying.
[44:38.950 --> 44:39.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Manuel?
[44:39.530 --> 44:39.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[44:40.150 --> 44:40.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: I just took another phone call.
[44:41.090 --> 44:42.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is that Trenton Computer Festival at all?
[44:42.270 --> 44:42.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[44:42.590 --> 44:43.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we're going to mention that in a second.
[44:43.770 --> 44:44.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's take this call here.
[44:44.550 --> 44:44.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[44:44.970 --> 44:45.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the air.
[44:45.570 --> 44:45.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: Hello.
[44:46.350 --> 44:55.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: I just wanted to comment that I must be your only real audio listener because if you went to open recent and went to last week's show, it connected you to the show, so...
[44:55.870 --> 44:56.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[44:56.490 --> 44:57.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: There are some people.
[44:57.850 --> 45:01.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: In fact, maybe if the coordinator could beep me since my...
[45:01.950 --> 45:04.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: I have another whole thing with my phone that didn't work today.
[45:04.710 --> 45:14.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: It could beep me with the number of people that they know to be on right now along with your prefix so I know that it's you and not one of the thousands of other people that beat me with various numbers.
[45:15.210 --> 45:21.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: That way we know how many people actually are listening with real audio today and we'll know how much of a disaster this outage has been to us.
[45:22.550 --> 45:28.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, yeah, if you were smart enough to do that, yes, you could get through, but it's hard to tell people how to do that, especially when they can't hear you.
[45:28.770 --> 45:28.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[45:29.070 --> 45:33.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: You might want to set up a mirror on maybe like Tripod or one of those free Internet places.
[45:33.650 --> 45:38.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we have to start flexing our muscles a little bit and putting up mirrors all over the place.
[45:38.730 --> 45:41.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it's about time we pay attention to that.
[45:41.690 --> 45:46.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: We were kind of lazy and I guess we just sort of let ourselves be victimized by an outage.
[45:46.890 --> 45:48.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: But we'll work on it.
[45:48.970 --> 45:49.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[45:49.250 --> 45:50.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Where are you calling from, by the way?
[45:50.790 --> 45:51.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: Cleveland, Ohio.
[45:51.750 --> 45:52.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Cleveland.
[45:52.370 --> 45:52.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[45:52.850 --> 45:54.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, do they have meetings in Cleveland?
[45:54.610 --> 45:55.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, they do.
[45:55.330 --> 45:55.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[45:55.670 --> 46:01.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: So you have to find out where your federal courthouse is in Cleveland and start organizing for the demonstration there.
[46:01.670 --> 46:02.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I tried to find out players.
[46:03.050 --> 46:06.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are there still a lot of pirate FM radio stations in Cleveland?
[46:07.590 --> 46:08.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know.
[46:08.290 --> 46:09.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: I haven't really been into radio lately.
[46:09.710 --> 46:10.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh.
[46:10.310 --> 46:13.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: There were quite a few there just a year or two ago.
[46:13.230 --> 46:24.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if there still are any, this would be a great opportunity to get this Mitnick thing talked about on some of those stations since they're not restricted by corporate whims.
[46:24.570 --> 46:24.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[46:24.970 --> 46:31.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, not every station, not every city has a 50,000 watt radio station in the middle of it that is devoted to freedom of speech.
[46:32.070 --> 46:35.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, fortunately we are here and we can talk about this kind of thing.
[46:35.490 --> 46:38.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: Other cities, you gotta, you gotta resort to other tactics to get the word out.
[46:39.090 --> 46:40.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's, that's what we're hoping to help people with.
[46:41.090 --> 46:49.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if you, if you want help doing this and you are listening to us from any part of the world, actually, because this is an international thing, email us, OTH at 2600.com.
[46:49.890 --> 46:56.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: We'll help you as best we can getting the word out, uh, to your neighborhood, to, uh, to your community so that, uh, people show up on June 4th.
[46:57.410 --> 47:08.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if you're afraid, you know, if you're afraid to, uh, to actually go to a demonstration, let me tell you, I've been to a lot of demonstrations, never been scared, going to even some of the most, uh, you know, strident ones.
[47:09.090 --> 47:09.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, um...
[47:09.650 --> 47:10.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're fun.
[47:10.410 --> 47:11.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're a lot of fun.
[47:11.250 --> 47:12.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: How many demonstrations have you been to, Isaac?
[47:12.550 --> 47:13.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: I went to the Miramax one.
[47:13.470 --> 47:14.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, you went to the Miramax one.
[47:14.470 --> 47:16.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, I was carrying your very expensive video camera at the Miramax one.
[47:16.930 --> 47:17.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[47:17.190 --> 47:17.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: With my life.
[47:18.150 --> 47:19.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: You were, you were gonna slug a cop with it, right?
[47:19.990 --> 47:21.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that, that isn't interesting.
[47:21.650 --> 47:23.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: If anybody come near me, I'll take care of them.
[47:23.750 --> 47:29.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, this is something that, uh, you know, if your parents are, are, are paranoid about you going...
[47:29.430 --> 47:30.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Basically, it's an informational thing.
[47:30.930 --> 47:31.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: You don't...
[47:31.330 --> 47:35.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're, we're not planning on standing there with picket signs and bashing the heads of people walking to the federal courthouse.
[47:35.670 --> 47:36.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's not our style.
[47:36.730 --> 47:45.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Our, our way of doing things is to let people know, you know, if somebody walks by us, give them the chance to take a, take a pamphlet and, uh, and, and learn something.
[47:46.090 --> 47:47.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if they don't want to learn something, fine.
[47:48.270 --> 47:49.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Have a nice day.
[47:49.190 --> 47:51.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, it's like, like the people on the street that are very polite.
[47:51.610 --> 47:53.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: So hopefully, uh, hopefully you'll go to the Cleveland one out there.
[47:54.090 --> 47:55.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mm, I'm planning to.
[47:55.110 --> 47:55.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, great.
[47:55.630 --> 47:56.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: Take care.
[47:56.970 --> 47:59.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, Pam, you had, you had something to say about, uh, Trenton.
[47:59.590 --> 48:07.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, actually, first I had something to say about the Internet world protest in the fall, uh, which is going to be, which was very similar to the one we're holding tomorrow.
[48:07.450 --> 48:14.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: All we did was wear t-shirts, hand out flyers, and actually take pictures in the conference, which you're not really supposed to do.
[48:14.270 --> 48:15.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you got a lot of stares too.
[48:15.790 --> 48:16.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: What?
[48:16.270 --> 48:17.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: A lot of people were staring, right?
[48:17.690 --> 48:18.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, absolutely.
[48:18.610 --> 48:24.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: It generated tons of interest among people that are computer people or advertisers for computer people.
[48:24.390 --> 48:31.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, people really paid attention and we got to get the word out from people who might actually understand the case.
[48:34.070 --> 48:34.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[48:34.650 --> 48:35.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, okay.
[48:35.650 --> 48:35.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Great.
[48:36.290 --> 48:36.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, yeah, Bernie.
[48:37.570 --> 48:37.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[48:38.390 --> 48:39.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: You were saying something?
[48:39.470 --> 48:40.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: I would just think it's great.
[48:40.510 --> 48:43.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, the more exposure you can give to this case, the better.
[48:43.010 --> 48:54.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, it's, it, it, it, it may be somewhat of a lost cause in Kevin's case because, uh, there never was a trial, as there probably should have been, but because of the way the federal justice system works, Mm-hmm.
[48:54.390 --> 48:55.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Trials rarely even happen.
[48:56.090 --> 48:56.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, but...
[48:56.990 --> 49:02.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: ...the more people become aware of this, the more likely it is to prevent this from happening to anybody else.
[49:02.170 --> 49:06.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think that the government thrives on, on working in darkness.
[49:06.550 --> 49:16.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the more they're exposed, uh, by protests and educational, uh, projects like this, the more people are going to take what they say with a grain of salt.
[49:17.070 --> 49:19.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, that's a good thing.
[49:20.190 --> 49:20.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: Absolutely.
[49:20.990 --> 49:21.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Absolutely.
[49:21.330 --> 49:30.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: By the way, we, uh, have been notified that we have 67 online listeners, which I think is pretty good because I think every one of those listeners had to figure it out for themselves how to, uh, get to the show this week.
[49:30.390 --> 49:32.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: So congratulations to all of you who actually, uh, actually made it.
[49:32.990 --> 49:35.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's about half what our usual audience is.
[49:35.590 --> 49:39.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, well, we'll get this show up online as, as soon as possible so people can hear the, uh, information.
[49:39.950 --> 49:44.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: And of course, in the weeks ahead, we'll be talking about this, uh, with increasing, uh, urgency.
[49:45.710 --> 49:48.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, 212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[49:48.750 --> 49:49.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's take some more listener phone calls.
[49:50.650 --> 49:51.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[49:52.790 --> 49:55.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, um, are the weekend protests off?
[49:55.810 --> 50:02.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, well, this, um, this pretty much is, uh, is going to be the protest, as far as I know, unless we plan something else.
[50:02.170 --> 50:17.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Originally, we were thinking of doing something on the weekend, but, um, after talking to a lot of people, it makes more sense to, um, to hit the places where the people that, uh, that, that pass this kind of policy, namely judges, lawyers, district attorneys,
[50:17.610 --> 50:19.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: the places where they're walking in and out of.
[50:19.450 --> 50:23.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: We were originally going to do this outside of prison, which is fine in Los Angeles because that's where Kevin is.
[50:23.910 --> 50:29.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: It doesn't make a whole lot of sense in other cities because, well, he's not there, and the people walking in and out, you know, what are they going to say?
[50:29.950 --> 50:35.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're, they're basically people visiting prisoners, uh, and, uh, maybe a couple of wardens or something like that, but that's about it.
[50:36.130 --> 50:41.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think this is our best shot at, at getting the word out, getting some media coverage, maybe influencing some opinion.
[50:42.170 --> 50:51.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, to add to that, uh, we do plan on being informational at this weekend's Trenton Computer Festival, which is this year in Edison, New Jersey.
[50:51.970 --> 50:54.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's this weekend, the 1st and 2nd of May.
[50:54.930 --> 50:55.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's right.
[50:55.450 --> 51:00.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: The, uh, website address is, uh, TCF, as in Trenton Computer Festival, 99.
[51:00.690 --> 51:03.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's TCF99.com.
[51:03.390 --> 51:05.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bernie, how will they find your table?
[51:05.610 --> 51:09.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, there will be a 2,600 van there, I believe.
[51:09.110 --> 51:12.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we're going to, we're going to try to erect a huge red weather balloon.
[51:12.530 --> 51:14.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: So just, uh, look for, uh...
[51:14.630 --> 51:16.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, we got, we have the weather balloon.
[51:16.730 --> 51:16.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[51:17.650 --> 51:17.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[51:17.930 --> 51:20.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Tickets to Trenton Computer Festival are purchasable for $10.
[51:21.650 --> 51:45.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if anybody wants to caravan down from Brooklyn, they can email me at esoteric, E-S-O-T-E-R-I-C, at inch.com, because we're having a caravan from Brooklyn, uh, both days, actually, Saturday and Sunday, as well as probably a little bit of a pre-event party on Friday night.
[51:45.690 --> 51:46.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[51:46.550 --> 51:51.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, Bernie, I should point out, for that, for that weather balloon, um, let's get some really strong rope this time.
[51:52.190 --> 51:52.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[51:52.330 --> 51:54.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, so we don't, we don't want a repeat of, of that, you know.
[51:55.270 --> 51:56.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: It, it, it ended happily.
[51:56.230 --> 51:57.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: It ended happily, fortunately.
[51:57.350 --> 51:59.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think we have the wins to thank for that.
[51:59.710 --> 52:04.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, and, and the parents of that little kid that went up for the little ride were, were pretty understanding.
[52:05.390 --> 52:07.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, we just have to be careful.
[52:07.690 --> 52:08.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, go ahead, caller.
[52:08.810 --> 52:10.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: The, um, Trenton Computer Fair?
[52:10.750 --> 52:11.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: Mm-hmm.
[52:11.330 --> 52:20.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: The information is also available at nj.tcf.com, or nj-tcf.com.
[52:20.650 --> 52:21.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, great.
[52:21.390 --> 52:22.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks for the info.
[52:22.990 --> 52:23.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[52:23.110 --> 52:23.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, also...
[52:23.690 --> 52:23.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[52:23.950 --> 52:28.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Also, I, um, will have a new version of the screensaver there.
[52:28.970 --> 52:35.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, I'm gonna try and get enough discs to hand it out to people, and it will actually be with Rodden's pictures of Kevin.
[52:36.450 --> 52:37.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, great.
[52:38.090 --> 52:38.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Great.
[52:38.850 --> 52:40.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, that's something, that's something to look forward to.
[52:40.630 --> 52:40.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[52:40.910 --> 52:41.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[52:41.770 --> 52:46.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it's the ones of Helm and MDC, so hopefully it'll have more of an effect on people.
[52:46.670 --> 52:46.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[52:47.070 --> 52:50.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, when you put a face to, uh, to, to what this is all about, it does have an effect.
[52:51.010 --> 52:51.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: It does make a big difference.
[52:52.430 --> 52:52.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[52:52.950 --> 52:53.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, thanks for the call.
[52:53.630 --> 52:55.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're gonna move on to another, uh, phone call here.
[52:56.010 --> 52:56.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: And a very good evening.
[52:56.950 --> 52:57.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the air.
[52:58.450 --> 52:58.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[52:58.970 --> 53:07.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just wanted to, uh, I know this might be overkill, but I just wanted to, uh, get your opinions on, uh, what happened in Colorado.
[53:07.750 --> 53:13.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: I expected that you might at least say something small about it, I just wondered how you felt about that type of thing.
[53:13.090 --> 53:13.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Interesting thing.
[53:14.010 --> 53:20.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, there's, there's been a lot of, uh, Internet, uh, play off the, um, off the events, uh, in Littleton.
[53:21.470 --> 53:27.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, as usual, you know, we see people saying, well, the, uh, you know, the problem here is, is, is speech.
[53:27.270 --> 53:30.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: The problem here is the fact that people read something or communicated with the wrong people.
[53:32.090 --> 53:35.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, to make it brief, I just think that that's missing the point.
[53:35.730 --> 53:36.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's missing the point.
[53:36.990 --> 53:39.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: You have a bunch of people that go around killing people.
[53:40.130 --> 53:41.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're not doing it with speech.
[53:41.330 --> 53:42.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're doing it with guns.
[53:42.210 --> 53:44.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're doing it because somehow they've gotten screwed up.
[53:45.130 --> 53:46.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's what you have to look at.
[53:46.590 --> 53:49.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: You have to look at what happened to the people in their lives.
[53:50.330 --> 53:52.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: Not what it was they were reading.
[53:52.330 --> 53:54.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: Not what it was they were accessing on the net.
[53:54.710 --> 54:02.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: But you have to look at how they were brought up, how they were treated in school, how they were treated at home, and what they had access to that enabled them to kill people.
[54:02.870 --> 54:04.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, those are very important questions.
[54:04.810 --> 54:05.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it's going to keep happening.
[54:06.230 --> 54:08.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: It'll keep happening until those questions are resolved.
[54:08.670 --> 54:13.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I suspect we'll, you know, we'll deal with this for a few weeks, and we'll move on to something else.
[54:13.630 --> 54:17.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it'll just happen again in a few months, and we'll say, hey, why does this keep happening here?
[54:17.350 --> 54:18.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'll tell you this.
[54:18.610 --> 54:23.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm in touch with a lot of people in other parts of the world, and they're amazed.
[54:23.390 --> 54:26.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're amazed at the United States because it doesn't happen anywhere else.
[54:27.330 --> 54:29.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you have to wonder about that.
[54:30.310 --> 54:36.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Senator Feinstein recently blamed the Internet for what happened in Littleton, Colorado.
[54:38.730 --> 54:40.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: She blames the Internet for everything.
[54:40.490 --> 54:40.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know that.
[54:40.870 --> 54:48.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: This follows very interestingly, because if you recall, a few weeks ago, or maybe a month ago, we were discussing that Al Gore invented the Internet.
[54:48.570 --> 54:48.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[54:49.030 --> 55:00.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: So perhaps this is a means by rationalizing the arrest of Vice President Al Gore for providing these students with the ability to access the information, to build these pipe bombs and cause such havoc.
[55:01.150 --> 55:04.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, Bernie, we should email Dianne Feinstein.
[55:04.490 --> 55:05.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Actually, no, she'll freak out.
[55:05.830 --> 55:06.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: She doesn't like email.
[55:06.970 --> 55:07.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: She's afraid of it.
[55:07.950 --> 55:08.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[55:08.310 --> 55:10.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Send her a nice postal letter and suggest that.
[55:11.190 --> 55:13.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: I hope that somewhat answers your question.
[55:13.450 --> 55:14.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you very much.
[55:14.470 --> 55:14.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[55:15.550 --> 55:16.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: Interesting thing, though.
[55:16.570 --> 55:20.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: There have been all kinds of Internet references here.
[55:20.690 --> 55:22.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: People have registered all kinds of sites.
[55:23.150 --> 55:24.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Trenchcoat.org is one of them.
[55:24.930 --> 55:26.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: People have gone nuts.
[55:26.530 --> 55:28.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, of course, everybody falls for it.
[55:28.350 --> 55:34.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Everybody believes that something posted on the Net had something to do with it, even though it's clearly put on the Net afterwards.
[55:35.570 --> 55:37.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: People believe what they want to believe.
[55:37.370 --> 55:39.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: And the Net is just a big playground.
[55:39.630 --> 55:39.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[55:39.830 --> 55:41.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's see if we can squeeze in one more phone call.
[55:41.510 --> 55:41.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[55:41.930 --> 55:42.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the air.
[55:44.790 --> 55:45.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[55:45.250 --> 55:47.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you didn't talk fast enough, so you blew it.
[55:47.310 --> 55:47.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[55:47.770 --> 55:48.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the air.
[55:50.230 --> 55:50.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[55:50.730 --> 55:51.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Same thing.
[55:51.270 --> 55:51.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: Same person, I guess.
[55:52.030 --> 55:52.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[55:52.450 --> 55:53.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the air.
[55:54.810 --> 55:56.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we're three in a row here.
[55:56.350 --> 55:56.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Three in a row.
[55:56.810 --> 55:57.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's see if we can go for four.
[55:58.390 --> 55:58.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[55:59.150 --> 55:59.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the...
[55:59.810 --> 56:00.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi again.
[56:00.490 --> 56:00.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: I just want to...
[56:01.350 --> 56:04.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: See, that's the only other response that I would not accept.
[56:04.570 --> 56:04.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[56:04.970 --> 56:05.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're on the air.
[56:05.690 --> 56:05.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[56:05.970 --> 56:06.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi.
[56:06.470 --> 56:10.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: In all due respect to Kevin, I think he was given draconian punishment.
[56:10.810 --> 56:13.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: But wasn't he a second-time offender?
[56:13.190 --> 56:14.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, he knew what he was doing.
[56:14.390 --> 56:16.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't think we can pretend he was an idiot here.
[56:16.830 --> 56:17.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's all I'm saying.
[56:17.930 --> 56:21.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, if he's a second-time offender, a third-time offender, a fifth-time offender, whatever...
[56:21.830 --> 56:24.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, but I'm just saying, you know, federal laws are strict.
[56:24.290 --> 56:26.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, he's stealing a pen from the post office.
[56:26.170 --> 56:29.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: He's possible by up to a year in prison and a $1,000 fine.
[56:29.650 --> 56:33.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: So this is... I mean, I'm not justifying the draconian laws.
[56:33.150 --> 56:35.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I think they're absurd for, you know, what he did.
[56:35.650 --> 56:40.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I'm just saying that based on the fact that it almost comes across like he was framed, and that's not the case.
[56:41.050 --> 56:42.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, a lot of times what happens...
[56:42.750 --> 56:44.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: He was doing something illegal.
[56:44.950 --> 56:45.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think he knew that.
[56:45.850 --> 56:47.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: He wasn't an ace, is what I'm saying.
[56:47.870 --> 56:56.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: But with selective prosecution, you can indict people for all kinds of petty crimes, make them seem like they are really, really big crimes.
[56:57.130 --> 57:05.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think Kevin realized that towards the beginning of this, and that's probably one of the reasons why he didn't rush into the open arms of the feds, and that this made things worse.
[57:05.990 --> 57:07.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, he was on probation.
[57:07.230 --> 57:10.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, actually, he wasn't on probation when he left, and that has been proven.
[57:11.090 --> 57:15.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you look at the court transcripts, that has actually been admitted to that he was not really a fugitive.
[57:15.970 --> 57:18.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: So a lot of this is called into question just why was it?
[57:18.810 --> 57:20.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Why was he being hunted in the first place?
[57:21.350 --> 57:22.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: Unfortunately, we don't have time.
[57:23.090 --> 57:24.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're making an example, of course.
[57:25.470 --> 57:26.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's basically it.
[57:26.530 --> 57:27.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I agree with that.
[57:27.130 --> 57:27.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: Two can play that game.
[57:28.090 --> 57:29.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: We can make examples, too.
[57:29.510 --> 57:31.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's wrong to use draconian rules like that.
[57:31.530 --> 57:34.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I'm just saying it almost sounds like he was framed, and that's not the case.
[57:34.790 --> 57:39.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: But just be careful not to fall into the trap of, you know, he broke the law, therefore, this is justified.
[57:39.690 --> 57:41.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, it doesn't justify that kind of punishment.
[57:41.590 --> 57:41.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[57:41.910 --> 57:43.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: I absolutely agree with that.
[57:43.410 --> 57:46.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I'm just saying there are times it almost sounds like he was framed, and that's not true.
[57:47.250 --> 57:48.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: He knew what he was doing.
[57:48.410 --> 57:52.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: We don't necessarily are saying he was framed, but when you look at the...
[57:52.110 --> 57:53.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: What about these damage figures?
[57:53.710 --> 57:54.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: What about these damage figures?
[57:55.050 --> 57:58.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, the damage figures, I think, pretty much show the game that they're playing.
[57:59.250 --> 58:03.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, they want to keep him in prison as long as possible, and they'll make things up if they have to in order to do that.
[58:03.910 --> 58:05.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, the question we have to ask is why.
[58:05.990 --> 58:07.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: Why is it so important to them to do this to him?
[58:08.550 --> 58:11.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Unfortunately, we don't have time to really address that question because we're out of time.
[58:11.670 --> 58:13.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Pam, I want to give you one more chance to give out the information for tomorrow.
[58:15.090 --> 58:20.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: 10 a.m. at Javits Center, which is in Midtown Manhattan, 34th Street, and I think 10th Avenue.
[58:20.370 --> 58:23.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's only a couple of miles away from the nearest subway station.
[58:24.110 --> 58:25.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's like two miles from the nearest subway, yeah.
[58:26.050 --> 58:28.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, again, if you can't make it at 10, show up at 1.
[58:28.830 --> 58:32.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back out in the concrete garden to get more people involved if you're there.
[58:32.650 --> 58:32.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[58:32.970 --> 58:33.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: It'll be fun.
[58:33.630 --> 58:34.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Fun for everybody.
[58:34.790 --> 58:36.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a serious subject that's fun.
[58:36.830 --> 58:37.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Email me.
[58:38.270 --> 58:42.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Esoteric, E-S-O-T-E-R-I-C, at inch.com.
[58:42.690 --> 58:43.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[58:43.390 --> 58:44.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Bernie S., thank you for coming.
[58:44.430 --> 58:46.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: We'll see you at the Trenton Computer Fair next Saturday.
[58:47.450 --> 58:47.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: We'll be there.
[58:47.930 --> 58:48.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, it'll be a lot of fun.
[58:48.610 --> 58:49.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Everybody should come.
[58:49.330 --> 58:58.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm only going to be there on Saturday because I have to attend the 50th anniversary of Pacifica on Sunday here in New York, and I urge all the listeners to show up to that as well because that's going to be a lot of fun.
[58:59.170 --> 59:00.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: Isaac, thanks very much for coming in.
[59:00.670 --> 59:02.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'll be at the protest tomorrow and at Trenton and everywhere else.
[59:03.070 --> 59:03.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Goodbye.
[59:03.390 --> 59:03.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[59:03.930 --> 59:04.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks for coming in.
[59:04.790 --> 59:08.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: We'll be back again next week, hopefully 100% on the net as well.
[59:08.290 --> 59:09.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Until then, Emmanuel Goldstein, have a good night.