Mike, uh, I didn't mean to interrupt.
I didn't mean to interrupt.
FM.
Thanks, now get out of here.
Alright, this is radio station WBAI in New York, uh,
and it's time for Off The Hook.
Off The Hook.
Off The Hook.
And a good evening to everybody.
This is Manuel Goldstein with another edition of Off The Hook.
We'll be talking about all kinds of developments in the hacker underground,
how they affect you,
and where we're all heading.
Off The Hook.
Off The Hook.
Off The Hook.
We've been spending most of our lives living in a gangster's paradise.
Power and the money, money and the power.
Minute after minute, hour after hour.
Everybody's running, but half of them ain't looking.
What's going on in the kitchen, but I don't know what's cooking.
They say I got to learn, but nobody's here to teach me.
If they can't understand it, how can they reach me?
I guess they can't, I guess they won't, I guess they front.
That's why I know my life is out of luck, fool.
We've been spending most of our lives living in a gangster's paradise.
Tell me why are we so blind to see
that the ones we hurt are you and me?
Tell me why are we so blind to see
that the ones we hurt are you and me?
And a good evening to everybody.
This is Off The Hook.
What might be our last show for a couple of weeks,
we'll find out for sure midway through this week
if we're going to be doing a marathon special for you
the next couple of episodes.
But we do have some important updates
and we want to give people the opportunity to call in
in case we're not on for the next couple of weeks.
So let's begin by giving some updates in the news.
Evening, Isaac, how are you?
How are you doing, sir?
I'm fine, I'm fine.
It's been a busy couple of days recently.
You were at Trenton.
Yes, I was.
Trenton Computer Fair.
That was a lot of fun.
It was.
It was a nice time.
It was smaller than the typical Trenton flea markets.
Was it smaller?
Yeah, they're usually a little larger.
Typically two fields.
Really?
Lest I recall.
I've only been to one before,
one where I was at the flea market.
I was inside the building once before.
But it seemed pretty big to me.
Well, I'm not saying that it's small.
It's just that it's a different breed of animal.
The coolest thing is when you see people,
like you meet the listeners,
people who actually come up and listen to the radio show,
and they see the 2600 van there.
I recognized you by your voice.
Here's the thing.
People say you don't look anything like what you are on the air.
I'd love to know what people think we look like.
Those of you who have never met us, never seen us,
please draw us pictures.
Send them in because I'm dying of curiosity.
They always say,
you don't look anything like you sound.
What do I sound like I look?
It frightens me.
It really does because I usually seem relieved.
So I just wonder what kind of monster they think I am.
Make you out to be.
That could be interesting.
Actually, once they were scared too.
Once they seemed very intimidated.
Must have been with the beard then.
Probably.
Actually, no.
That was Mike Wallace.
Yeah, I remember now.
Oh, okay.
I scared him.
Scared him good.
And then there was the Pacifica 50th anniversary on Sunday.
So it was kind of a doubleheader for me,
meeting all these people there at the Riverside Church.
I think we had like 1,000 people there or something.
And just so many diverse backgrounds and different shows.
It makes you realize just how important this place is
and how vital the listeners are to us
and how they will lay down their lives for this station
if it comes to that.
Not that I think it's ever going to come to that,
but if it did come to that, you know, that's, whoa.
I could see the ads for the pledge drive now.
Yeah, yeah.
So it was great seeing listeners both on Saturday and Sunday.
And also good news because the actual head of Pacifica herself
stood up on the podium and announced that BAI
is going to be going real audio 24 hours in the very near future.
Yeehaw.
Yeah, so it's about time.
We're actually pretty much ready to go as far as that goes.
We're just waiting for the clearance to go ahead.
And then people out there, those of you who are listening right now
in various parts of the world, you can listen to other shows,
such as the one you just missed now,
the Expert Witness Show with Mike Levine.
You can listen to Talk Rear afterwards, the Arab show.
You can listen to City in Exile and Pacifica News
and all kinds of great things.
So you have something good to look forward to.
True enough.
Yeah.
All right, a couple of interesting news items.
You might have seen this one.
New U.S. law requires websites to become handicapped accessible.
What?
Yeah.
Well, it's from one of these paranoid news groups, you know,
the ones that keep saying that it's around the corner,
the big crackdown and the concentration camps and all that kind of thing.
All right.
Well, Webmaster's Uncle Sam wants you to change your website
to make it more accessible to those who are blind, deaf, and otherwise disabled.
And for some, it's not a suggestion.
It's the law.
The new rules are mandated by a little-known provision,
Section 508 of the Workforce Investment Act enacted by Congress last year.
The new rules will apply within a few months to all websites
operated by government agencies.
The government has announced by August 7, 2000,
they will also extend to vendors doing business with the federal government.
Possibly soon afterward, they may extend to every website posted in the U.S.
in the view of at least two members
of the Electronic and Information Technology Access Advisory Committee.
All right, simple question.
Yeah.
How do you make a web page suitable for viewing by the blind?
That's a challenge that I imagine they'll be working on in the years ahead.
That's why they're waiting until 2000 to figure that one out.
Not those Braille terminals and things like that, but, you know, it's odd.
Maybe there'll be mandatory vocal things going on on your computer.
I don't know.
Members of the Federal Website Commission...
There's a new one.
This is from ZDNet, so I don't know.
They told ZDNet yesterday that for non-government-related sites in the U.S.,
the guidelines would be voluntary,
but those who do not adopt them could soon face new federal rules for all online publishing.
Again, this is nuts.
This is something that, if it's true, we should be screaming about it,
and if it's not true, I don't know where they're pulling this out of.
Under the new law, websites will be required to restructure their content design
and underlying technologies to allow individuals with disabilities
who are members of the public seeking information or services from a federal department
or agency to have access to and use of information and data
that is comparable to the access to and use of the information and data
by such members of the public who are not individuals with disabilities.
Okay.
That's clear.
That sounds credible.
That's clear enough, all right, that this has to do with federal agencies
and the usual kind of thing that they have to follow
and say there's no asbestos in their product
and that there's a certain percentage of minority interest
and all the things that you have to fill out every time you do something with a federal agency.
But this is not going to extend to individual people,
and I think we really need to not go nuts here.
The indication that that's going to happen, I'd like to see it,
but I don't see any indication of that here.
I see paranoia.
Well, it has to exist.
Yeah, I guess so. I guess so.
All right.
Here's something very interesting with regards to the whole Kevin Mitnick saga.
This is a good parallel right here.
Listen to this story.
Puzzled by a charge on her MasterCard statement for Internet access,
Bettina Lini of Calabasas figured someone had made a mistake.
She couldn't owe $19.95 to a company called Netfill, she thought.
She had never ordered Internet service for her home computer.
The 29-year-old Rocketdyne worker was among up to 900,000 credit card holders worldwide
who were billed by Malibu-based Netfill in what federal regulators say
is one of the largest credit card scams in history.
A U.S. District Court judge in Los Angeles has ordered the company's owner to appear in court
to respond to Federal Trade Commission allegations
that he has been concealing millions of dollars in offshore bank accounts.
Kenneth Chavez, who controlled Netfill, took in more than $49.4 million last year,
only a fraction of which came from legitimate charges for access to pornographic websites,
according to regulators and a court-appointed receiver.
One federal law enforcement source said the extent of the alleged scam was off the scales.
FTC officials have not yet determined how he may have obtained almost a million unique credit card numbers.
I have an idea how easy that is.
Yeah, I can come up with a few ideas of my own.
But they were investigating whether he may have used a number-generating computer program.
Oh, gee, that was one of them.
Yeah, but you know, that doesn't give you the expiration date, does it?
No.
I don't know.
MasterCard officials said such a program is believed to be circulating on the Internet.
Ooh, there's a revelation.
The Internet again.
Yeah.
Chavez's attorney declined to comment.
But here's the interesting thing.
Just finding the right part here.
This guy obviously has been up to no good.
He took all kinds of overseas trips.
He was on probation.
And no one from the U.S. Attorney's Office or the U.S. Probation Office ever objected to these overseas trips,
which were approved by U.S. District Judges Dikran Tevrizian Jr. and Audrey Collins.
Chavez is still on probation for his role in the 1997 Czech counterfeiting scheme.
Keep in mind, this is while people like Kevin Mitnick are in prison without even having bail hearings for over four years.
This guy is traveling around the world and being accused of all kinds of further crimes involving millions of dollars.
They say he has $6.2 million in cash and securities in the Cayman Islands Bank.
Investigators believe he owns much, much more than that.
And he has a net worth of about $2.5 million, ownership of a Malibu home, a private plane, 50% ownership of a house in the Caymans.
Evidence investigators who examined Chavez's companies, primarily JK Publications, MJD, Service Corp.,
found that only about $3.9 million came from presumably legitimate business, either from web access fees or commissions on other web transactions.
The source of the remaining $45.5 million, according to a receiver's report, is highly questionable
and is not supported by the customer data and files seized from Chavez's firms.
Documents received by The Times show the check for $1.5 million from one of his firms was deposited at Eurobank Corp.
in the Caymans last November 16th while he was on one of those overseas trips.
And as we mentioned, he was still on probation for his role in the 1997 check counterfeiting scheme, but that was not his first run-in with the law.
He was also charged in Los Angeles County for the 1980 murder of Jeffrey Rockman, who had allegedly swindled him in a business deal.
Really nice guy.
Isn't this great?
Now, you know, I don't know what kind of policies we have towards criminals, but it just seems to me this guy fits the description of a criminal, right?
Murders people, swindles people, travels all over the place, has homes in the Caymans.
Well, wait a second.
This guy's on probation.
I think you can travel and have homes in the Caymans without being a criminal.
Alright, I guess in theory that is possible, but right now what we're talking about is this guy is definitely up to no good
and he has been convicted of things in the past, but he's on probation.
They gave him probation and I don't even know if he's been arrested now.
According to two law enforcement sources, Rockman, the guy that you confessed to murdering, was in the Federal Witness Protection Program.
Oh, there you go.
When his body was found in his oceanfront Venice apartment, a local handyman told authorities that Chavez had hired him to shoot Rockman, but the handyman died in a car accident before trial.
How convenient.
It just keeps getting better here.
With no case left, prosecutors let Chavez plead guilty to accessory to murder.
He received probation.
Oh, isn't that nice.
And that's what we're dealing with here, folks.
That is the kind of justice system we're dealing with, where basically they pick somebody who caused no harm to anybody, didn't even receive any money for anything,
simply looked at something that the corporations didn't want him to look at.
That's the person you keep in prison without bail and solitary confinement for periods of time,
while murderers and real swindlers have houses in the Caymans.
Tell me the logic behind that.
There isn't any.
Well, if there is, it's the kind of logic I don't know if I want to know about.
Hey, we made the LA Times.
We did?
Yeah, we did.
With the disclosure of those documents we read last week on the air.
Yes.
For a guy who never seemed to profit from his hacking habit, Kevin Mitnick sure took a big bite out of the high-tech economy,
if newly disclosed damage estimates from his victim companies are to be believed.
Mitnick's hacking cost high-tech companies at least $291.8 million over a two-year span before his capture,
according to estimates provided to the FBI by NEC America, Nokia Mobile Phones, Sun Microsystems, and Novell.
The damages are listed in previously undisclosed letters that were obtained by 2600 Magazine, a pro-hacker publication,
that has posted the letters on its website.
The damage estimates vary widely.
NEC said Mitnick stole software code worth $1.8 million,
but Nokia figures Mitnick cost the company at least $135 million,
including $120 million in lost revenue due to new developments being delayed in reaching the market.
Critics say the estimates border on fantasy and point out that the companies did not report these hefty setbacks in public financial statements,
but the estimates underscore the ambiguities of assessing damages in hacking cases.
Some argue that hackers should be accountable for the cost of developing the software they steal,
even though they were only taking a copy.
Mitnick himself once argued that it was akin to saying someone who shoplifts a 49-cent Big Pen
ought to be accountable for the millions of dollars BIC has spent developing and marketing it.
The issue is still significant for Mitnick, who pleaded guilty to various hacking charges last month,
but awaits a ruling on the restitution he will be ordered to pay victims.
Here's U.S. Assistant District Attorney Chris Painter.
We're going to make a submission for an amount of restitution we consider appropriate,
not necessarily the full amount of the loss that was caused.
Very interesting way of phrasing it.
Legitimizing these numbers, saying, yeah, that was the loss that was caused,
but we're not going to ask for that because, obviously, it's crazy.
Right.
Not that the loss didn't exist, which is what we're maintaining.
I'm not too sure about Kevin's parallel with the Big Pen, though,
because the actual shoplifting of a Big Pen means that he has the pen and nobody else does.
Yeah, it's worse. It's worse. You're right.
He's taken something. He has it.
No one else will ever have that Big Pen.
Yes, unless, of course, he gives it to somebody.
But what a great way of, I mean, I'm not really big with the financial things here,
but you tell me.
Maybe some of our stockbroker listeners out there can give me some information.
If you have a way of generating income by claiming losses
every time somebody makes a copy of something and it's worth $200 million,
shouldn't you hire people to make copies and claim losses?
I mean, it seems to me there's an opportunity there to make a lot of money.
Every time you copy a file, $200 million is right there.
I mean, come on.
It's like cash cow if I ever heard one.
I don't think that's going to quite pan out, though.
Well, if you follow this logic, it has to pan out, you know?
But, yeah, I agree.
Following this logic is really not the best way to go.
So we have updates now on the demonstrations we started talking about last week.
We now have five cities,
and there are quite a few more, actually, that are interested in organizing
that are not quite finalized yet,
but if you check the web page, you'll see those pop up.
Right now we have demonstrations on 2600.com, actually,
but also on freekevin.com there is a link to it.
Now, probably the most important demonstration will be taking place,
and not that the other ones aren't important,
but as far as just significance and symbolism and that kind of thing, Los Angeles,
because the demonstrations will be taking place right outside where Kevin is being held,
not outside the prison, but outside the federal courthouse,
and that's where the people walk in and out that are responsible for him being there.
Those are the people you want to reach.
So we're going to be there handing out pamphlets with signs,
walking up and down the street,
talking to individual people that might not know about this case.
It's going to be really a positive thing.
In case anyone has never been to one of these before,
it's not to be viewed as a negative thing where, you know,
riot cops come out with horseback and things like that.
It's not that kind of thing.
Basically, you're there on a street corner handing out things to people that want to see it,
and a lot of people do want to see it.
When we were at the theaters last summer,
handing out pamphlets on the whole Kevin Mitnick takedown movie thing,
people were coming up to us asking for more.
They were interested.
They wanted to talk about it.
They wanted to learn more.
And that's why if you are involved in the demonstration,
we suggest you thoroughly read the documents that are on the website,
on www.freekevin.com.
Those are court documents.
They pretty much tell you how things went in the words of the people who were there.
Read other things, too.
Read the articles on that site.
Read articles on other sites.
Get the other side as well.
Be prepared for people coming up saying,
hey, he's a criminal.
He deserves to be in jail.
How do you answer that?
How do you respond to somebody?
Well, no, you don't hit them.
I know you want to do that, but no.
It's hard to resist sometimes.
No, I never did that.
Yes.
You really have to reason with a lot of people.
Some people don't want to be reasoned with.
Some people just want to say he deserves to be in prison because they want to say that
and they want to appear to be tough on crime.
I don't know why people say these kind of things.
But he's been in jail for over four years now.
How guilty do you have to be?
For copying software?
Meanwhile, people are running around the Cayman Islands killing people.
That's, you know, I don't know.
Good summary.
Yes.
So, anyway, the Los Angeles demonstration will be taking place at the Spring Street Courthouse,
which is on 312 North Spring Street in L.A.
And as with all the demonstrations, it will be starting at 2 p.m. on Friday, June 4th.
Now, there's going to be an organizational meeting at this Friday's 2600 meeting in Los Angeles.
That takes place at Union Station on the corner of Mason and Alameda.
People might be wondering why we're talking about L.A.
Well, we do actually have listeners in L.A. right now because we're on Real Audio.
Hopefully, all of the AI will be on Real Audio pretty soon.
So, other shows will be able to do things like this as well.
See the power of organization.
Last year, we were amazed we could organize a New York City demonstration.
And we saw what kind of effect that had.
That changed the film by their own definition.
We saw interviews with people saying that demonstration really shook things up.
Well, now, we're going nationwide.
In fact, worldwide, people in other countries are welcome to participate.
We just have to figure out where they should demonstrate because they don't have U.S. federal courthouses overseas.
Yeah, that's a minor technicality.
Probably embassies, I would say.
But we're open to suggestions on that one.
I'm not sure about Canada because we have a lot of meetings in Canada.
We don't have an embassy, obviously, in every city in Canada.
So, if people have a suggestion, feel free to e-mail us.
We have a special e-mail address set up, june4 at 2600.com.
And that's the e-mail address for June 4th, the demonstrations.
All right, so that's the deal with Los Angeles.
We also have, of course, a demonstration here in New York on 500 Pearl Street at the same time, June 4th, 2 p.m.
We'll be having a meeting this Friday, May 7th, at the Citicorp Center, part of the 2600 meeting.
And that meeting goes on from 5 to 8 p.m.
In addition, we also have demonstrations happening in Omaha, Nebraska at the U.S. District of Nebraska Courthouse.
That's on 215 North 17th Street.
And there's a 2600 meeting this Friday to organize that, the Oakview Mall, Barnes & Noble.
That meeting starts at 6.30 p.m.
Philadelphia, U.S. Eastern District of Pennsylvania Courthouse, 601 Market Street.
And the organizational meeting for that, again, this Friday, May 7th, at 30th Street Amtrak Station, 30th at Market, under the stairwell 7 sign.
Just follow the security guards.
They always are watching people there.
And finally, San Francisco, the U.S. Northern District of California Courthouse, 450 Golden Gate Avenue.
And there's an organizational meeting this Friday, May 7th, for Embarcadero Plaza at the 2600 meeting, 5 to 8 p.m.
Here's something cool.
The San Francisco meeting is going to have an airplane.
What?
Well, the demonstration is going to have an airplane with a big Free Kevin banner on the back of it.
We're renting a plane to do that.
And, you know, that's the thing.
Every city, I'd like to see every city do something kind of cool like that.
I haven't figured out something for New York yet, so make me a suggestion.
Well, it's probably not going to be an airplane.
I don't think you can fly airplanes over the city, can you?
No.
You can't do that?
No.
Okay, so, I don't know. We'll have to figure something out.
Unless you're a really big 747 out of JFK.
Again, you know, we're hackers.
We can think of creative, imaginative things to do.
We'll come up with something.
Yeah, definitely.
What do you think about this trench coat nonsense?
We're getting letters from people saying they've been kicked out of school because they've worn a trench coat.
That's nuts.
My thoughts and feelings on the subject of the whole Littleton massacre go pretty deep.
So, there's no reason to really get into them at present.
Okay.
So, we'll avoid your feelings.
Yes.
We'll center on my feelings.
Good.
Which is that that's the biggest pile of nonsense I've ever heard in my life.
I agree.
No matter.
You can't agree.
You don't want to go into your feelings.
Well, I can agree.
Listen.
That's simpler than going into a very long dialogue.
We can talk for six hours about what caused things to happen at Littleton, Colorado and why all these people are dead.
But I'll tell you this.
I think it's pretty damn clear that trench coats didn't cause this.
No.
I don't think anybody can say that trench coats are responsible for this.
So, what is this nonsense where teachers and principals and administrators are saying,
Do not wear a trench coat because that means you're an evil person.
Well, the more interesting thing that I heard was some first grader saw like a Swiss Army knife sitting at the edge of a playground.
And he just kind of made this offhanded comment.
Let's pick it up and kill the teacher.
At which point he was arrested.
A first grader was arrested?
Yeah, six years old or something like that.
Wow.
I heard this on WABC a couple hours ago.
It was rather odd.
Has it been verified through more rational people yet?
No, no.
I just heard it and I just blinked a bit and said,
Ooh, this is interesting.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Well, you don't want to know what I said when I was in first grade.
In fact, I could probably get in trouble if I said it now.
You know, for saying it.
Probably the statute of limitations doesn't expire for that kind of thing.
But, come on.
People need to really focus on the issues here.
And one thing I'd like is, you know, I'm ready to get a trench coat right now.
I really am.
This is annoying me so much.
How can you tell people what to wear and what not?
I mean, they've been doing it all the time.
School uniforms.
Everybody wants to have school uniforms now.
And, you know, all kinds of ways of dressing are considered bad.
You know, baggy pants.
Of course, that's just for holding weapons.
But, you know, this whole trench coat thing, I think, is really silly
because there was no problem with them before.
And now, all of a sudden, they're being demonized.
You know, a style of fashion is being demonized.
Yes, that's foolish.
But there are other reasons to enforce things like school uniforms.
I was fortunate enough to go to a high school where we were quasi-uniformed.
And a lot of the objections you hear so far as, well, you know, I have free expression
and I need to be able to do this, that, or the other thing,
just kind of goes out the window because you ignore it at some point.
You think of more interesting bonding issues between you and your colleagues.
Well, I think the way you dress and the way you style yourself in various ways,
yeah, there's a lot of bad in that in some ways because there's conformity.
That's where the badness is.
But there's also individual spirit.
And that's what's being quashed by having people dress in the same way.
You can still partake in expressing your individual spirit in a uniformed environment.
But why should you have to?
Are you going to forget you're a student?
Are you going to forget where you belong?
Is that how they identify people?
You know, you're a student.
This is what you look like.
It's a matter of stressing what's important.
In a school, you're there to learn, not to go to a fashion show and strut down the hall.
And it's the only way to learn by what the teachers are saying?
It's not the only way to learn.
But uniforming in schools has its positive aspects as well as the negative.
Okay, fine.
But if you believe that, let the students pick the uniform.
How about that?
That's fine.
All right.
I would not have a problem with that.
Not from something the administrators give them.
They make up their own style, okay?
That's what they decide.
They decide who they are.
How can people who are not anywhere close to who the students are decide what they should look like?
I just find that absurd.
The next is going to be hair.
You've got to cut your hair.
You have to walk in a certain way.
You have to toe the party line.
I think a school is the best possible place to show your individualistic spirit and for that to be appreciated and fostered.
There needs to be a balance, though.
A school is a place to learn.
It's a place to be educated and to concentrate on making yourself a better person.
Right.
But why is individual expression considered counter to that?
It's not.
There needs to be a balance, though.
At the point in the public school, so far as what I've heard and seen, there's way too much being stressed so far as how my hair looks, what pants I'm wearing, if I have the new coat or jacket.
Right, but aren't they doing the exact same thing by telling you this is what your hair must look like, this is what your clothes must look like?
They're making it mandatory except they're playing by their rules, not your rules.
There are some people.
When I went to school, I didn't care what I looked like.
It was fine with most people, but that was my choice.
Uniforms are not necessarily a fascist kind of regime where they say, your hair is one inch too long.
There is some leeway.
It's a step in that direction, though.
It's a step in that direction, but I think at this point it's something of a better step.
It would be a step more for good than for evil.
I don't know.
I remain unconvinced that it's needed at all.
I think this is the first time we've had one of these really long arguments on the air.
Yeah, you know, and we're straying far away from the subject.
But it is relevant in that hackers are always trying to express themselves in an individualistic way.
I get so much mail from people who are getting into trouble in school because they do something to a computer or they change a setting someplace.
And, of course, everyone assumes that they're out to start World War III and they get into trouble based on that.
I'm seeing the same kinds of letters here now because people are wearing trench coats.
I just think the whole thing is really silly.
That's wrong.
Yeah.
All right.
Let's read some quick mail and take some phone calls.
212-209-2900.
To all the wonderful people at 2600 and OTH, hello.
I was wondering if you could send me more info when it becomes available for the Mitnick demonstrations.
I'm a real audio listener from Cleveland and would like to do what I can to help out.
And if possible, put me in touch with others in Cleveland.
Signed, Jim.
Well, this kind of letter actually we've gotten several times over.
In fact, probably a couple dozen times over.
And basically what you have to do if you're interested in starting your own meeting is email us at june4 at 2600.com.
That's 4, not spelled out, J-U-N-E number 4 at 2600.com.
And be prepared to give us your info, including your name and phone number, so that we can contact you in case we need to talk to you in person.
Yeah, it's kind of difficult to do that to an anonymous individual.
Yeah, exactly.
And, you know, there's nothing illegal about any of this.
It's obviously something that is your right of free expression.
And if you're interested in organizing for your city, basically it's going to involve taking the flyer that will be up on our website.
There's a flyer up there right now, but that's a flyer to distribute before the demonstration, which actually you'll be doing as well, spreading the word.
And printing that out, making copies, passing it around, going to your local 2600 meeting, organizing through there.
So if you want to do that, if you want to be a part of that, definitely email us.
Hopefully we'll have a whole pile of emails waiting for us when we get off the air.
June4 at 2600.com.
Love to see some of you in Cleveland get involved as well.
Wherever there's a 2600 meeting, that's most major cities in the United States right now.
We can have a demonstration because we already have that organizing group right there.
All right.
And here's another letter I've heard through IRC.
Right away you know that's going to be an interesting news item.
I've heard through IRC a questionable and yet reliable source.
What is that?
Questionable and reliable source.
IRC and reliable source really don't belong anywhere near each other.
That's certainly true.
The New York City meeting has been moved.
Where to?
They did not know.
I will be listening tonight, and I hope you've got some facts for us.
Perhaps it is all rumor or misunderstanding.
In any case, when Friday rolls around in New York City, where do we meet?
Signed, Uzi.
Well, Uzi, the meeting has not been moved.
It's still at Citicorp Center.
It will be at Citicorp Center long after it's gone.
And, well, it's our spot.
It's just where we belong.
So Citicorp Center could be conceivably condemned and will be there?
It could be.
Look, we stuck with it through the reconstruction, which took about 10 years.
That's true.
That was fun.
And so if we can do that, we can certainly stick into the next millennium, stay there for whatever we need to do.
So, yeah, the meeting will still be this Friday, Citicorp Center, as always, 5 to 8 p.m.
If you're interested in the New York City demonstrations, please show up there.
We'll be talking about that, handing out some more flyers,
and trying to figure out an idea for something really neat to do that will top the airplane in San Francisco.
Can't let those people...
Get those brain cells running, New Yorkers.
We need to show the West Coast.
But anyone else, too.
Other cities, as well.
The Midwest can outdo us?
Well, conceivably, yes, they could.
They could.
Absolutely.
And, Anthony, you're here.
Are we on the air next week or not?
No, you're not.
Not on the air next...
Why would you think that?
I knew we weren't on the air next week because of the marathon, but if we're on the air...
Two numbers.
You're on the 18th.
The 18th.
Eight and one is nine.
The complete show from seven to ten.
Let's think about that.
Three hours.
Three hours.
And seven and ten equals eight.
I know you think it's 18, but, you know, rather 17, but it's ten.
Seven and ten is 17.
How are you getting eight?
Because seven and one is eight.
That means it's prosperity night.
Eight is a prosperous number.
So, therefore, because of the internet and all kinds of things, seven to ten, you're going to make so much money,
you're going to blow this place away.
I just know you are.
You know, that's up to the people listening on Real Audio.
In fact, maybe we could get some email on the phone right now saying how many listeners we have on Real Audio.
But this is the first time ever since we started doing Real Audio a couple of years ago that we're going to do a marathon show
where we can actually appeal to those people to help out with the show, with the radio station.
That's good.
But, look, tell me what the address is going to be because I'm going to be away, actually.
It's www.2600.com slash off the hook.
Okay.
Okay.
And you need Real Audio or an MP3 streamer, and you can listen away.
Okay.
We'll be listening.
That's great.
That's great news.
So we'll be on not next week, in two weeks, with a three-hour show from seven to ten.
Exactly.
Enjoy.
That's going to be amazing.
All right.
Thanks, Anthony.
Wow.
That's the breaking news item right there.
Wow.
Anthony Sloan bringing us the word from upstairs.
Actually, they're no longer upstairs.
Management's right here on the same floor.
So down the hall, I guess.
18 May?
I'm sorry?
18 May?
It's two weeks from today.
Okay.
Yeah.
It's the day before Star Wars.
Oh.
Yeah.
I don't know if I can make it.
Yeah, what?
Are you going to be camped out somewhere?
All right.
Marathon show.
You know, I got a copy of that on my computer.
What?
The film.
Really?
I'm just trying to cause trouble.
Start mayhem someplace.
It's all right, Spielberg.
I got...
Not Spielberg.
Who's the guy?
Lucas.
Yes.
Whatever.
They're all the same.
All right.
212-209-2900.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Oops.
I'm sorry.
I didn't have you up there.
That sounded like a familiar voice.
Who's there?
Yeah.
It's me.
It's you?
Who are you?
Hello?
Can you hear me?
Yeah.
I can hear you just fine.
Briefly.
Okay.
Briefly, I was just about the school uniforms.
They want people to wear school uniforms to prevent gang violence because, you know, different
gang...
How in the world does a school uniform prevent gang violence?
Well, I don't know, but that's the thing.
And also, you're talking about things like...
What were you talking about before about how...
You know, I lost track again.
Anyway...
Why don't you reset yourself and then call again.
All right.
Well, while I reset myself, I'll tell you that.
Did you know that in Connecticut, local 411 information is 50 cents now?
Well, you know, the same thing is true in Pennsylvania, so it's definitely spreading.
But that's not Bell Atlantic, though.
That's SNET, right?
Right.
Yeah.
But also, you know, I remember last time you were talking about things, how things used
to be free.
I used to need air for my bike, tire, riding my bike, and my tire would go flat.
I'd go to the gas station, put air in it.
Now they charge you a quarter.
Well, yeah, that I knew.
Right.
That I knew.
Well, you could also buy your own bicycle pump.
Well, yeah, that's true.
Which you can mount on your bike and be able to put air in your tires at any point in time
or place.
Right.
A quarter for oxygen, though, I think is...
It's not oxygen.
It's air.
It's a compressor.
I'm not trying to make a big deal of this.
I'm just saying, you know, that the point is that they're starting to charge for things
now that, you know...
But you know why they charge?
They charge because people pay.
That's the only reason.
What's that?
That's the thing.
Yeah, because people pay.
And they say, well, these people may not pay, but somebody's going to pay.
Just like a store that may charge a high price for one item than another.
All right, you buy much apple juice at one store.
It's the same thing as in another store, but it's at a higher price.
These people aren't going to lower their price because they say, well, people pay it.
You know what I'm saying?
It's like the business philosophy.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
People bear, and that's something that we as consumers have to look out for.
Ah, the magic of economics.
Yeah.
Well, we're not going to talk about that either because we have to move on to other things.
But thanks for the call.
And we have 123 Real Audio and MP3 listeners together out there someplace around the world
listening to us.
Well, those people...
It's especially important that you're listening tonight because we have the demonstrations
coming up in different cities all around the world, which you can be a part of.
And in two weeks, as you just heard, we'll be doing a special marathon show where we ask the listeners.
And in case you don't know, WBAI is a listener-funded station.
That's why you don't hear Coke commercials here or any other kind of commercials here.
You don't even hear underwriting announcements here because this entire place exists because of people like you.
Except before now, those people were only here in New York, and we still desperately need those people.
But for the first time, now we have people outside the area listening from foreign countries.
And if you want to show support for the radio station, then you can do so as well and show support for Off The Hook
and really make a difference.
We've seen time and again how individuals can make a difference in the world in various ways.
And this is yet another opportunity to prove that.
So in two weeks from 7 to 10 p.m. here on WBAI, tune in to the Off The Hook stream or 99.5 FM in New York City.
All right, let's go to another phone call.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Speak up, please.
Hey.
Hi.
Is this Emmanuel?
Yes, it is.
Hi, I love your show.
I have a quick question for you.
My friend has a Sprint cell phone, and she got a prank call from a man in a foreign language at 4 in the morning.
But her caller ID said the call was from my phone.
I was wondering, is there some way somebody could have cloned my phone?
Well, what kind of phone was it that it supposedly came from?
Pardon me?
What kind of phone did it come from?
Just a regular home phone.
So your phone number showed up.
Yes, on her cell phone.
Had you called her?
I'd called her earlier at around 11 in the evening.
Okay, what probably happened was that the number that came in afterwards was unavailable and didn't show up as caller ID.
And she simply looked at the last number that called her.
That was you.
Okay, but it did say the time, though.
It did say, like, 4 a.m.
I have a caller ID box that's part of my answering machine.
And I've got to tell you, I used to have an answering machine that took cassettes, had a three-digit code.
It was great.
Two-line answering machine.
They don't sell those anymore.
You have to go out, and you have to buy these digital pieces of crap.
I miss that answering machine.
Yeah, and it's constantly crashing, constantly losing messages.
It doesn't record messages half the time.
It sounds awful.
And it has caller ID built into it.
When you get more than 25 calls, the caller ID gets jumbled up.
You see the name of one person and the phone number of another.
You see the wrong name and number attached to a certain call.
So just because it says something at a certain time does not mean that that's true.
So, basically, what I think we're dealing with in this particular case is some kind of technological foul-up.
That's great because I was totally going, you know, I woke up, maybe I woke up at 4 in the morning speaking like a man in a different language.
I don't know how this worked out.
Or some strange person got into your apartment and decided to call your friend and be annoying.
Right, while I was sleeping.
Right.
Did he leave voicemail, or did he just call the phone?
No, it was just like some guy laughing.
It was a prank call.
That is odd.
I really appreciate it.
All right.
Well, thanks for calling.
Good luck with that.
But, you know, something's really fouled up with Sprint PCS.
I don't know if people have noticed this.
Oh, that's new.
Well, this is a funny one.
This has to do with voicemail.
Voicemail is showing up in the future.
I don't know if it's happening still.
It probably stopped happening now, but it was happening over the weekend.
If you sent mail to somebody, voicemail, the actual message date time stamp was something like six hours ahead.
Yes, I noticed that.
Yeah, so you were getting messages from people at times that couldn't possibly exist.
It made for some rather humorous situations while trying to meet up with people.
So, yeah, Sprint PCS antics continue.
212-209-2900, the program is off the hook, and you are on the air.
Good evening.
How are you?
Okay.
I have an idea that will top your airplane pulling the banner thing.
Let's hear it.
Okay.
Over in Lakehurst, New Jersey is where they dock the Goodyear blimp.
Oh, boy.
The Goodyear blimp will put your public service announcement on the side of their craft
if you submit a letter on your letterhead from a not-for-profit organization.
Wow.
So now you have, like, you know, I'm sure the Free Kevin organization is a not-for-profit organization, correct?
Well, it's not an official not-for-profit.
We don't make any profit, but we have to be an official one.
Well, it doesn't really necessarily have to be official.
It just has to be on your letterhead, and I'm sure you can come up with that.
I'm sure there's a non-profit organization out there that's accredited that can do this for us
as far as putting something on a letterhead.
I mean, is that acceptable to them?
Well, several years ago I called, and we got something on the side of their blimp
from a local boys club that we were just, like, you know, trying to get, you know,
some gang kids to, like, turn their lives around.
We weren't accredited, and, like, we weren't associated with anybody,
and we made up a letterhead on someone's computer, and they accepted it.
Really?
Excellent.
So what, they flew around the city with your message?
It was during, like, the 4th of July weekend, and they flew away around Manhattan
and Coney Island and various other areas.
But you can contact them.
I don't have their number off the top of my head,
but if you have, like, a voicemail system where I can leave a message,
I can do a little bit of research and then get it for you.
Yeah, call us at the office, 516-751-2600, and go to extension 0.
That will take you to one of those terrible answering machines,
and you can leave a message there, and hopefully it won't crash and destroy it.
Okay.
All right, thanks for the suggestion.
That would be kind of cool to have the Goodyear blimp.
I like it.
Yeah.
Actually, it probably will be above the, literally above the airplane.
Above the airplane?
Well, at a higher altitude.
Will we be able to read that from, if it's right above us?
Sure.
Well, the whole city will be able to read it.
Yeah.
That's the important thing.
You ever see the Bud blimp, like, go down somethingth Avenue,
and you just look down like, ah!
Yeah.
Like a UFO at night.
It's kind of interesting.
Yeah.
Well, that's a great idea.
I like it.
Yeah.
All right.
We're going to look into that.
Definitely going to look into that.
Let's take another phone call over here.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Speak up.
Hi.
Greetings.
Hi.
I haven't heard you in a long time.
Can you turn down your radio, please?
Yeah, I'm going to go in another room.
I can't turn it up.
Yeah.
First of all, when is the meeting Friday, 5 to 7, and where in City Corps?
Okay.
It's actually 5 to 8, and it's in the lobby where all the chairs are in City Corps.
I thought they closed that building after 5.
No.
No, they did not close it.
I think it closes at 10.
Okay.
It does not close at 5.
Sometimes a meeting closes at 5.
Okay.
And the other thing is, what was the demonstrations going to be,
all around the same time?
Yes.
In different cities.
Pretty much the same philosophy the 2600 meetings have,
where we all meet at the same time in different parts of the world,
local time, that is.
This will happen before those particular meetings,
about three hours before the meetings happen the first Friday of June.
So there will be informational pickets and people walking up and down with signs,
basically just trying to get the word out, educate some people on this whole case,
which has been going on for so long.
We've been talking about it on this radio station.
It's the culmination, because sentencing takes place.
Can you just tell me again, because, Emanuel, because I haven't listened in a while.
What do you need?
What is the case that you're currently processing?
Okay.
This has to do with Kevin Mitnick,
a computer hacker who was jailed February 15, 1995,
has been in jail for over four years with no bail hearing,
in a pretrial facility in Los Angeles,
not allowed visitors, put in solitary confinement on a couple of occasions.
He recently pleaded guilty to put an end to the suffering,
because had he gone to trial, he would have been found guilty,
most likely because he didn't have all the evidence,
he wasn't being given enough of the evidence to adequately defend himself.
The federal government has a 95% conviction rate,
and there's a reason for that, because they play dirty, quite frankly.
I mean, I don't like to be so blunt, but that is how it works.
They play dirty, and they do cheat,
and they get their conviction 95% of the time.
Had he been convicted,
it would have been a minimum of another 10 years in federal prison,
and that was not something that he or anybody else, I think, was looking forward to.
So pleading guilty was the quickest way out.
What that means is that he could go back to prison for another year,
and then be on probation for another three years,
and that's a whole other issue right there,
where they want to control every aspect of his life,
prevent him from talking about his situation,
prevent him from even talking about computers,
using telephones, using any kind of technology whatsoever.
But when sentencing comes along on June 14th,
the judge will have some leeway,
and she will be able to recommend his immediate release to a halfway house,
and they will also be able to relax some of these conditions,
which I think are appalling and make it impossible for him to survive in any sense.
So that is what we are going to be pushing for on June 4th,
is just to open up some eyes on this case.
When was the last time you spoke with him?
Last week sometime.
So you have been able to speak with him?
Yes.
But we can't write to him.
Oh, sure you can, absolutely.
Well, are you going to give the address again?
I don't have the address right on me.
Maybe somebody could email me that address off the website.
And then he'll tell us.
Yeah, if anybody who has web access, just go to freekevin.com,
and the address is right there as to who to write to.
I'm sure somebody will email us with the address,
and we can announce it on the air as well.
Good.
All right, thanks for calling.
We're going to move on to another phone call.
Let's go over to this number right there.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Hello?
Hi, how are you?
Yeah, Emmanuel.
I found out a free way to get 411 access to Bell Atlantic.
Oh, boy.
Okay, let's hear this one.
You have to call up and you have to ask for their local business office,
and they'll say they'll connect you to 411 free of charge,
and then you ask for the given number you want.
Okay, you call the business office.
No, you dial zero.
Then you say, I need the phone number to my local Bell Atlantic business office.
Okay.
Then they'll say we'll connect you to information free of charge.
Really?
Because they can connect you to information and not be free of charge.
So you're saying that they have the option,
the operator has the option of connecting you free of charge.
Yeah, they say we'll connect you free of charge.
Okay, so basically you call up and you say you need to speak to your local business office.
You need the phone number, yeah.
Right, and I don't have the phone number, obviously, so I need their help.
So the operator basically shuffles you off to 411 and says no charge
because it's a Bell Atlantic number.
You know what?
I like it.
Yeah, let's see if that works.
Thanks so much for calling, and we're going to try that out right now in a live demonstration.
Of course, we may get the one operator who listens to the show.
They can't listen to the radio while they're working.
Probably a memo is being circulated right now popping up on everybody's computer screens.
All right, everybody quiet.
AT&T, to place a call, please dial the number you are calling.
Wait a minute.
Why did we get AT&T?
For double only phone U.S. directory, press 1.
For other requests, please say information, credit.
Oh, you know what?
That's right.
We don't use Bell Atlantic anymore.
Oh.
Hold on, hold on.
Don't panic.
I think if I dial a carrier access code, the old 1010 NYT, and then a 0.
There's an anachronistic carryover.
Yeah.
When there wasn't NYT, there was no 1010.
It was 10NYT.
That might get us Bell Atlantic.
Notice how things go through so fast these days.
Yeah.
Technology moves on, but pick up rages.
Did you hear about the 911 problem today?
Actually, I'm glad I didn't, but what is it?
Well, basically, last week there was a 911 problem, a snafu.
And, you know, I think we have a snafu right here.
I don't think anything's going through.
Is there an operator on the line?
No operators anywhere.
Okay.
Basically, 911 was upgraded a year or so ago.
And earlier, last week, there was a problem where it would take 15 seconds to get connected.
And that was a bit of a problem, especially when you dial 911, you like to talk to somebody right away.
You know, it helps.
It makes you feel better.
Today, we're talking about a 45-second delay spread throughout the city.
So, if you're calling 911, they're telling you to stay on the line.
Eventually, somebody will pick up.
I mean, what kind of nonsense is this?
Hello.
I've been shot.
Try to hold that thought, sir.
All right.
Here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to ask the AT&T operator if they can connect me.
No, this isn't going to work.
They're not going to be able to do that.
They're not going to do it.
They're not going to do that.
All right.
Forget it.
I'm not even going to try this.
All right.
If someone out there can try it for us.
I can't believe we can't get an Atlantic operator.
That's so sad.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Oh, howdy, Emmanuel.
This is Daniel C. at panics.com.
Hi.
How are you?
Good.
Pretty good.
All right.
I'm just referring back to your discussion earlier about HTML and blind people.
Okay.
Yeah.
And do you remember a couple weeks ago you had a gentleman doing a text-to-speech conversion of email?
Yes.
Yes.
Same thing for websites.
Right.
I thought of something like that.
But the thing I'm doubting is that they're going to require everybody to have a website.
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's doubtable.
But basically, you guys had turned the whole thing into a joke of, like, blind people reading websites.
Blind people use computers all the time, and I'm sure you know that.
Yes.
And basically, they have a speech program that takes text and turns it into speech.
And the way to turn webpages into something that's readable by a blind person is to,
when you use an image, to put an alt tag inside the image to say, oh, this is a photograph of Emmanuel
or this is a free Kevin banner or on and on and on.
This is a hacked website.
I'm sorry?
Yeah.
Are those the same rules that ought to apply to webmasters when they make or, rather,
write their homepages for text-only browsers?
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
You need to make your stuff backwards compatible and readable by everybody instead of just like,
oh, this is the whiz-bang, cool graphic webpage that, you know, only people with Java can read.
It's like, what's the point?
This site only available in Shockwave 4.
I use Irix.
I don't have Shockwave.
Exactly.
Enjoy.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Oh, great.
Thanks for taking my call.
I'm going to turn down the radio.
Okay.
I just wanted to ask you a question about Sprint phones.
I have recently gotten a Sprint phone and I'm not at all happy with it.
I'm not happy with the Sprint service because there's a lot of roaming charges,
and I want to ask you, do you know of a service that does not have roaming charges?
Well, Sprint PCS should not have roaming charges when you travel out of the area
if you subscribe to certain plans that give you long distance included.
Well, I have one of those plans, and they do charge.
I have a dual-band phone, and they say when you go into analog areas...
Okay, that's your problem because you have a dual-band phone.
If you just had a digital phone and you used the digital service areas,
you wouldn't be charged for roaming there.
The problem, of course, is that digital areas aren't everywhere yet.
Like Atlanta.
Exactly.
Atlanta still isn't hooked up?
If I remember correctly, they said they were going to get it last December,
so I don't know if they're on yet.
Wow.
We'll see what happens.
But that's really it.
If you use the old analog system, yeah, there is still roaming charges that apply.
For every service?
It seems that way.
I mean, the analog services are more expensive,
but I believe both OmniPoint and Sprint are phasing out any kind of roaming charges
because they are very unpopular.
Yeah, you betcha.
Well, you go upstate and they don't have, like you say, what is it, the digital network?
Right.
So you don't have any choice, and I imagine that's a lot of other areas as well.
Oh, yes.
And it's a little confusing the way they explain it
because when you go and buy your first phone,
you're not really cognizant of all that
and it doesn't really kick in until you start getting these extra charges,
and then you're like, oh, yeah, I don't want those charges.
And you can see your bill and it's all very clear.
Yeah, right.
You know, so that really was my main question,
is whether you can actually avoid those roaming charges altogether.
If you can stay digital?
And plus, the quality of the phone I have is terrible.
Do you know of a, I mean, I'm new to this whole cell phone thing,
I got what supposedly is the best phone that they have, but it's terrible.
It's only as good as the signal that you latch on to.
That's the whole thing.
Well, but the first phone I had, which was analog, was much clearer
and it was a much better phone, but then I got this other one
because this one is dual-band and it just sounds so much worse.
I've heard the same complaint from almost everybody who uses the new services,
and I imagine we're just the pioneers that are experiencing the rough conditions
and it'll clear up for future generations.
Okay.
Hey, thanks for calling. We're out of time.
Okay, thanks.
All right, good luck.
Another unhappy Sprint customer.
Yeah, well, what are you going to do?
All right, we have an email address.
Thanks to Porsche Shop for sending us the email for Kevin Mitnick.
Actually, not the email, the regular mail.
You can send email to Kevin Mitnick simply by mailing kmitnick at 2600.com
or Kevin at freekevin.com, I believe works.
But if you want to send something in the mail,
you can only send paper products and things like that,
nothing attached to them, just letters pretty much.
No staples.
Maybe newspaper clippings, things like that, or soft books.
Not hardcover books, I don't think, unless you're the publisher.
The address, Kevin Mitnick and his prisoner number,
which has to go on that envelope, is 89950-012.
That's 89950-012 MDC, Metropolitan Detention Center,
P.O. Box 1500, Los Angeles, California, 90053-1500.
Please send whatever you can, because when you're in prison,
it's definitely good to hear from people from the outside.
We've heard so many times before on this radio program,
and unfortunately, I fear we will hear again in the future.
All right, you won't be hearing us in the future as of next week,
but in two weeks, you'll be hearing a lot of us.
You'll be hearing us from 7 to 10 p.m. in two weeks.
That's what, the 18th?
Yes.
The 18th, okay, and we're doing a special marathon show,
so spread the word about that, especially you Real Audio people out there,
as many of you involved in this as possible,
and everybody else in the New York area.
We look forward to talking with you then, too.
We're going to have a really special show.
We'll do all kinds of fun, different, exciting things.
Till then, this is Emanuel Goldstein for Off The Hook and for Isaac.
Good night.
Have a good night.
Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would,
for Billy Bond, for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood, for Billy Bond.
I hope that's understood, for Billy Bond.
Black Love, Love Black.
A Mother's Day feast of spoken word,
with Sonia Sanchez, Amiri Baraka, Jessica Kare Moore, Reg E. Gaines,
Abby O'Doon, and 25 poets and performance artists.
Sunday, Mother's Day, May 9th, 1999, at 7 p.m. at Symphony Space,
2537 Broadway at 95th Street.
For information, call 212-340-1196.
Once again, that's 212-340-1196.
And this is WBAI Community Sponsored Radio in New York.
Stay tuned for Tahrir.