Off The Hook - 1999-07-13

[00:02.660 --> 00:05.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this is WBAI in New York.
[00:06.120 --> 00:14.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Next up, we'll be off the hook with Emmanuel Goldstein, not here, but accessible, we hope, by telephone.
[00:24.180 --> 00:26.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: You have reached the Kremlin.
[00:26.420 --> 00:32.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: In order to report the unconstitutional suspension of a legally elected parliament, press 1.
[00:32.700 --> 00:40.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: In order to report the bloody suppression of resistance to the unconstitutional suspension of a legally elected parliament, press 2.
[00:41.760 --> 00:52.400]  [SPEAKER_00]: In order to report the unanimous support of the unconstitutional suspension of a legally elected parliament by the morally bankrupt leadership of the Western democracies, press 3.
[00:53.520 --> 00:56.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: For all of the above, press 4.
[00:57.380 --> 01:00.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: You have selected option 4, all of the above.
[01:01.280 --> 01:06.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: All of our unprincipled collaborators with Western business interests are busy right now.
[01:06.780 --> 01:12.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: Please wait until the regime has had time to consolidate its power and try your call again.
[01:27.270 --> 01:35.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself off-shaving Now I
[01:41.850 --> 01:48.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: hope they would But we're bound for the best to stay for worse I hope that's understood But we need more
[02:14.640 --> 02:18.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you're listening to WBAI and Off the Hook.
[02:19.240 --> 02:21.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: You'll notice that I'm not Emmanuel.
[02:21.880 --> 02:25.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is Isaac in the studio in beautiful New York.
[02:25.900 --> 02:29.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're actually getting Emmanuel on the phone as we speak.
[02:29.440 --> 02:36.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: He is out in Los Angeles, who was actually present at Kevin Mitnick's sentencing earlier.
[02:36.980 --> 02:38.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is he there?
[02:40.160 --> 02:40.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hmm.
[02:41.380 --> 02:42.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: He is there.
[02:42.280 --> 02:42.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello?
[02:45.020 --> 02:46.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Emmanuel, Emmanuel.
[02:47.800 --> 02:49.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Minor technical difficulties.
[02:50.340 --> 02:50.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anyway.
[02:52.770 --> 02:56.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: He will be joining us from Los Angeles in the near future.
[02:57.720 --> 03:01.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Some interesting things in the world of the hacker recently.
[03:02.560 --> 03:10.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Those of you may be aware of DEFCON, the conference out in Las Vegas, which concluded this weekend.
[03:12.460 --> 03:13.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's see.
[03:13.480 --> 03:16.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: I didn't attend, as was discussed on the previous show.
[03:17.020 --> 03:17.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was...
[03:17.400 --> 03:20.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: I actually had my own conference, GHICON.
[03:21.480 --> 03:23.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: GHICON being the Grand Hacker Invitational.
[03:24.540 --> 03:27.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: DEF was taken, so I just took the next three letters.
[03:27.800 --> 03:34.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Those of you who tuned in last week knew that I got to know the opposite side of the wall of my apartment quite well.
[03:34.740 --> 03:35.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm here now, I think.
[03:35.700 --> 03:36.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, you're here now?
[03:36.460 --> 03:38.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: I heard that ghastly noise that I think all our listeners hear.
[03:39.380 --> 03:47.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, if you do a radio show, you don't know what we put our listeners through, but this is the kind of screech noise that the phone makes before we put our people on the air.
[03:47.800 --> 03:49.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I heard that, and I knew, wow, I'm on the air.
[03:49.400 --> 03:52.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because I've been talking for the last ten minutes, but nobody heard me.
[03:52.580 --> 03:52.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, okay.
[03:53.100 --> 03:54.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we hear you now, which is good.
[03:54.680 --> 03:54.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah.
[03:55.060 --> 03:55.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, here I am.
[03:55.660 --> 03:56.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm in Los Angeles.
[03:57.360 --> 03:58.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is it sunny, or...?
[03:58.780 --> 03:59.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it's weird.
[03:59.680 --> 04:02.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, whenever you're in Los Angeles, there's always some kind of crisis going on.
[04:03.140 --> 04:11.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: They have clouds moving in, and there might be thunderstorms, and of course, that triggers all the emergency broadcasting things and cuts into TV programs.
[04:11.800 --> 04:13.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, when anybody goes to Los Angeles, or just you?
[04:14.140 --> 04:18.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, it just seems that every time I'm here, there's something like a flood, a thunderstorm, tornadoes, whatever.
[04:18.940 --> 04:19.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, they're all happening.
[04:20.140 --> 04:24.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, keep in mind, folks, if Emmanuel is going to Los Angeles, you don't want to be there for your own vacation.
[04:24.800 --> 04:25.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Definitely not.
[04:25.460 --> 04:27.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, hello to you, Isaac.
[04:27.840 --> 04:28.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: How are you doing, sir?
[04:28.600 --> 04:35.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: And hello to Claude, our studio engineer this week, as we plot through the week's activities and find out what's been going on.
[04:35.540 --> 04:37.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Are you talking about the convention you had in your house?
[04:37.420 --> 04:40.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, yes, GHICON.
[04:40.180 --> 04:41.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, sorry, I missed it.
[04:41.300 --> 04:43.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, well, you know, you went to DEFCON.
[04:43.900 --> 04:45.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah, I went to DEFCON.
[04:45.380 --> 04:49.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: We had about, I think, just under 3,000 people there.
[04:50.400 --> 04:52.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, I'm not sure how yours compared to that.
[04:52.640 --> 04:53.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: I had the one.
[04:54.140 --> 04:54.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[04:54.300 --> 04:55.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: But the keynote was really great.
[04:55.740 --> 05:01.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, just, I can't even speak about it because it was so incredible, it was unheard.
[05:01.320 --> 05:01.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Dove.
[05:01.940 --> 05:02.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[05:02.240 --> 05:02.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Dove.
[05:05.200 --> 05:15.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, we had an attendance of one and showed a couple of movies, popcorn, you know, really festive kind of atmosphere.
[05:15.300 --> 05:16.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Get the cops called on you?
[05:17.860 --> 05:18.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Not really.
[05:18.820 --> 05:23.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: We tried to have a spot the Fed, but it didn't work too well.
[05:24.780 --> 05:27.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I guess the second one will probably be a little bit better.
[05:28.000 --> 05:29.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, yeah, I'm hoping.
[05:29.780 --> 05:31.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: These things progress over time.
[05:31.180 --> 05:31.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[05:31.720 --> 05:46.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: DEFCON, on the other hand, was an interesting convention where we talked to all kinds of different people, feds, hackers, you know, phone freaks, various strange-looking people just were wandering around, some local Vegas types.
[05:48.680 --> 05:57.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's really good to get together once a year, at least once a year, and see what kinds of things are going on in the hacker world.
[05:58.080 --> 06:01.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's amazing how the culture has grown.
[06:01.600 --> 06:04.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, there are just so many people now who are a part of things.
[06:05.120 --> 06:12.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: And so much history behind it all, so much, I guess, fame is attached to it, too, thanks to the media.
[06:13.000 --> 06:15.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the media was certainly there in force as well.
[06:15.320 --> 06:16.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: If so, I've heard.
[06:16.720 --> 06:16.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[06:18.740 --> 06:20.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was interesting, very interesting.
[06:20.700 --> 06:24.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: And where I went, maybe next year, well, next year we have H2K in New York.
[06:25.120 --> 06:42.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it looks like, judging from all the people I talk to, and I talk to a ton of people that want to take part in H2K, H2K, of course, being HOPE 2000, the third HOPE conference in New York City, there are so many people who want to take part in that that we are really going to start organizing now.
[06:42.940 --> 06:45.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to start looking for convention space.
[06:46.340 --> 06:51.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: It will either be happening in June or July of 2000, and we should have definite dates pretty soon.
[06:52.340 --> 06:56.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you're interested in helping out, please send us an email, OTH at 2600.com.
[06:56.520 --> 06:59.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I haven't checked my email in almost a week.
[06:59.420 --> 07:00.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I don't miss it.
[07:01.760 --> 07:02.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't miss it at all.
[07:02.880 --> 07:05.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it'll get you all at once quite well.
[07:06.100 --> 07:06.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[07:06.360 --> 07:08.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think I could keep going on like this.
[07:08.240 --> 07:10.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can keep not checking my email and just, you know, not caring.
[07:11.600 --> 07:16.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's kind of nice to walk around and, you know, talk to people face-to-face for a change.
[07:16.580 --> 07:18.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Whatever I send an email to is without this thing anyway.
[07:18.820 --> 07:19.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: It doesn't matter.
[07:20.860 --> 07:21.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.
[07:21.380 --> 07:24.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's just kind of a different feeling to feel cut off.
[07:24.180 --> 07:29.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Even though there's technology all around, you know, you don't really want to go to Kinko's and log in from there because that can be different.
[07:29.240 --> 07:30.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I recall.
[07:30.880 --> 07:30.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[07:31.400 --> 07:43.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: But we did have the release of BL2K, which is Back Orifice 2K, a sequel to last year's release by the Cult of the Dead Cow CDC of Back Orifice.
[07:43.840 --> 07:44.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Same amount of hoopla?
[07:44.940 --> 07:45.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sorry?
[07:45.500 --> 07:47.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Same amount of hoopla and hype.
[07:48.080 --> 07:48.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot more hoopla.
[07:49.000 --> 07:49.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot more hoopla.
[07:49.780 --> 07:52.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: There was a huge article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal about this.
[07:53.220 --> 07:58.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was headlined, Federal Agents, Recruiters, Crash Hackers, Confab.
[07:58.400 --> 08:00.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I guess they sort of have to talk about it.
[08:00.080 --> 08:00.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: They crashed it, huh?
[08:00.760 --> 08:01.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, they have to talk about things like that.
[08:02.020 --> 08:03.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, they didn't exactly crash it.
[08:03.600 --> 08:05.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know where they get these things.
[08:06.760 --> 08:12.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: But there was all kinds of talk in that and on CNN and various other places about the release of that program.
[08:12.360 --> 08:20.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: CNN, I'm not sure if it was CNN or if it was, I think it was the CBS radio network got it completely wrong by saying that hackers were releasing computer viruses onto the Internet.
[08:20.660 --> 08:28.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: And in actuality, what VO2K was was simply, I guess, a strong statement as to the vulnerability of certain operating systems.
[08:28.920 --> 08:30.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: In this particular case, Windows NT.
[08:31.580 --> 08:37.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: And basically, the program was demonstrated, shown, given out.
[08:38.220 --> 08:47.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: And really, there were so many people in that room, I could not believe this is probably the largest panel, I think, in history of a hacker conference.
[08:47.780 --> 08:49.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: How many people did you say were in there?
[08:49.560 --> 08:52.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe 2,000 people in the room?
[08:54.700 --> 08:55.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's a little bit of a send-off.
[08:55.800 --> 08:57.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was probably 2,000 people in one room, which is pretty incredible.
[08:57.860 --> 09:04.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, last year, I saw photos of last year's, which was just, you know, people, standing room only, but not even enough standing room left.
[09:05.120 --> 09:07.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right, and then the air conditioning failed.
[09:07.460 --> 09:08.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, of course.
[09:08.100 --> 09:11.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you saw people, you know, trying to fan themselves.
[09:11.200 --> 09:12.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Some people had to be carried out.
[09:12.340 --> 09:17.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I saw this one guy go out with so much sweat, it looked like he had been swimming in his shirt.
[09:18.020 --> 09:20.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was really quite a sight.
[09:21.380 --> 09:27.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, of course, the whole reaction when they come out, it's like seeing a rock band, you know, perform.
[09:27.620 --> 09:29.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's like seeing a Queen concert or something.
[09:29.440 --> 09:34.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: You have these strobe lights and everybody, you know, jumping out on stage, wearing their crazy attire.
[09:34.400 --> 09:38.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, it's a bunch of computer geeks releasing a product, basically, is what it is.
[09:38.620 --> 09:39.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, you know, it's...
[09:39.560 --> 09:41.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's so insane here that that's how we're reacting.
[09:42.400 --> 09:43.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's fun, though.
[09:43.360 --> 09:48.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, you know, you guys just have to have a little bit of applause and everything.
[09:48.580 --> 09:49.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's all about fun.
[09:49.420 --> 09:54.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: And speaking of fun, I got to Vegas a day early because I just...
[09:54.320 --> 09:55.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know why.
[09:55.000 --> 09:56.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just felt I should get there a day early.
[09:56.780 --> 09:58.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Some little voice in my head told me to do that.
[09:58.660 --> 09:58.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[09:59.320 --> 10:06.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: And as I was sleeping that first night, it was Wednesday night I got there, I heard something very strange.
[10:06.620 --> 10:09.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: I kept noticing this as I was drifting in and out of consciousness.
[10:10.360 --> 10:12.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's something you don't hear very often in Las Vegas.
[10:12.960 --> 10:13.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know what that is?
[10:14.420 --> 10:15.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not exactly sure.
[10:16.000 --> 10:16.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thunder.
[10:16.600 --> 10:16.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thunder?
[10:17.180 --> 10:17.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thunder.
[10:17.680 --> 10:19.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Like, you know, as in thunder and lightning.
[10:19.200 --> 10:22.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, you mean like, you know, the slots, somebody cashing in kind of thunder?
[10:22.720 --> 10:23.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, not that kind of thunder.
[10:24.000 --> 10:27.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just the thunder coming from nature, you know, of a thunderstorm.
[10:27.320 --> 10:27.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Like rain?
[10:27.820 --> 10:29.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was a thunderstorm.
[10:29.320 --> 10:30.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was a very big thunderstorm.
[10:30.520 --> 10:35.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, when I did wake up, I turned on a TV set and they were in emergency mode.
[10:35.660 --> 10:40.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: They were talking about the whole city being shut down, floodwaters, trailer homes being swept away.
[10:40.720 --> 10:43.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: They said it was the worst storm in a hundred years.
[10:43.580 --> 10:45.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I was lucky enough to be there.
[10:45.180 --> 10:52.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: And in fact, when I went out, I found that the hotel we were at was lucky enough to be stranded in between two lakes.
[10:52.380 --> 10:54.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: And there was almost no way to get out.
[10:54.480 --> 10:59.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Of course, there was a way to get out if you drove in back to strip malls and over some people's lawns and things like that.
[10:59.320 --> 10:59.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Of course, well.
[11:00.000 --> 11:02.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eventually, it had to do because I couldn't stay in that hotel a minute longer.
[11:03.600 --> 11:07.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it was very weird to see rain in Las Vegas.
[11:07.900 --> 11:09.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: It just wasn't like it was before.
[11:10.780 --> 11:11.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was much wetter.
[11:12.420 --> 11:12.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot.
[11:13.000 --> 11:15.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, they don't have any real way of dealing with water there.
[11:15.280 --> 11:17.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think they still have puddles in that rainstorm.
[11:17.620 --> 11:18.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: It doesn't drain as easily.
[11:20.180 --> 11:22.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: So it was an unusual event.
[11:22.240 --> 11:24.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that was right before the conference began.
[11:24.280 --> 11:26.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: I guess it was good timing because it was the day before.
[11:26.580 --> 11:27.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: It had to have been the day of.
[11:27.680 --> 11:28.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: It might have been totally...
[11:28.640 --> 11:30.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, that could have adversely affected the attendance.
[11:30.780 --> 11:36.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, considering that there were outdoor swimming pools and things like that, that definitely would have affected things.
[11:37.080 --> 11:38.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: But there were a lot of interesting panels.
[11:39.020 --> 11:40.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of interesting people showed up.
[11:40.740 --> 11:49.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: We showed the nine-minute trailer for the film we're working on, of which you edited a substantial portion and Pork Chop edited the rest.
[11:49.460 --> 11:50.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: How did that come over?
[11:50.860 --> 11:51.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: It really...
[11:51.980 --> 11:53.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it was received very well.
[11:53.200 --> 11:54.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: We showed it a couple of times at DEFCON.
[11:54.780 --> 11:58.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: We went over to Kevin Mitnick's grandmother's house to attack and showed it there.
[11:59.400 --> 12:00.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: And she loved it.
[12:02.060 --> 12:04.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Showed it in a few other forums and places.
[12:04.660 --> 12:06.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think it turned out pretty well.
[12:07.600 --> 12:10.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure exactly what we're going to do with the trailer from this point on.
[12:10.620 --> 12:15.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: We are going to be dubbing some copies for some people that had requested it.
[12:16.160 --> 12:17.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Media people, perhaps.
[12:18.000 --> 12:21.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: But basically, the film's name is Freedom Downtown.
[12:22.720 --> 12:23.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's been decided.
[12:24.040 --> 12:24.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sorry?
[12:24.700 --> 12:25.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's been decided upon.
[12:25.800 --> 12:26.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's been decided, yes.
[12:26.600 --> 12:27.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: That is the title of the film.
[12:27.960 --> 12:33.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, that's where it was pretty much debuted, when that nine-minute trailer was played on Friday night.
[12:35.580 --> 12:38.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the film should be out in early spring.
[12:38.480 --> 12:40.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it really looks impressive.
[12:40.740 --> 12:42.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: It played very well on the big screen.
[12:42.200 --> 12:43.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was a little concerned about that.
[12:43.700 --> 12:48.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: But I think it'll be a good piece, a good documentary on the hacker scene.
[12:49.980 --> 12:50.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: We need one.
[12:51.600 --> 12:52.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: It would be nice, yes.
[12:52.700 --> 12:54.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: To save the marriage to do that.
[12:54.540 --> 12:55.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was also...
[12:55.340 --> 12:56.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have a scene in there.
[12:56.560 --> 13:00.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have a shot of Kevin, actually, in prison from the street.
[13:00.220 --> 13:02.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can see him from the street, waving out.
[13:03.580 --> 13:06.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's just such an incredible image.
[13:06.700 --> 13:09.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: And when everybody saw that, the place just erupted in applause.
[13:10.260 --> 13:12.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because to actually see...
[13:13.980 --> 13:21.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's just a pair of glasses and a hand waving the face of somebody that we've been focused on for so long.
[13:21.520 --> 13:23.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: It just somehow brings it all home.
[13:23.900 --> 13:26.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: And makes it mean more somehow.
[13:27.700 --> 13:28.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: True enough.
[13:28.520 --> 13:28.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: True enough.
[13:29.540 --> 13:31.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, yeah, that's the story with the film.
[13:31.320 --> 13:33.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that will be coming out.
[13:33.780 --> 13:36.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll be working on that next few months.
[13:37.520 --> 13:40.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yesterday was the Mitnick sentencing hearing.
[13:40.280 --> 13:42.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm sure a lot of people are interested in hearing what happened there.
[13:42.720 --> 13:44.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm actually interested in hearing what happened.
[13:44.660 --> 13:45.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, well, no.
[13:45.960 --> 13:52.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: We drove from Vegas to Los Angeles because they were nice enough to schedule his sentencing hearing for the day after DEFCON.
[13:52.200 --> 13:54.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, we took the drive.
[13:54.920 --> 13:56.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, in fact, a lot of people did this.
[13:56.420 --> 13:59.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: We wound up filling up the courtroom, which I think is incredible.
[13:59.980 --> 14:01.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it made a lot of difference.
[14:04.140 --> 14:07.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin came out after a few minutes' delay.
[14:07.560 --> 14:09.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've got to tell you, he looks really good.
[14:09.560 --> 14:10.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: He looks amazing.
[14:10.360 --> 14:11.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: He was dressed very nicely.
[14:11.840 --> 14:13.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: He looked happy.
[14:14.620 --> 14:15.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Confident.
[14:15.060 --> 14:17.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: And he saw the supporters there.
[14:17.560 --> 14:18.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I know that made him feel really good.
[14:19.080 --> 14:21.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of his family members were there as well.
[14:21.620 --> 14:22.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good.
[14:22.500 --> 14:25.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, yeah, it was a very positive scene.
[14:26.100 --> 14:32.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, the judge, Marian Foutser, saw her for the first time.
[14:32.420 --> 14:34.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: She's exactly as she's been portrayed.
[14:36.000 --> 14:39.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Very feisty, very, I wouldn't say argumentative, but dismissive.
[14:40.300 --> 14:42.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, she doesn't put up with any nonsense.
[14:43.140 --> 14:51.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: And right away, when Don Randolph, who is Kevin's lawyer, started trying to explain things to her, you could tell that she just wasn't going to hear any of it.
[14:52.740 --> 14:58.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: She was so impatient and kept cutting him off and telling him to move on and not take so much time to explain certain things.
[14:58.740 --> 15:00.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it really threw him off guard.
[15:00.660 --> 15:05.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: It could throw anybody off guard to have somebody constantly sniping at you like that.
[15:07.100 --> 15:10.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: The issue that was being raised yesterday was mostly restitution.
[15:11.620 --> 15:25.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Don Randolph was trying to explain to the court how Kevin Mitnick has no money and has no means of making money since the government does not want him to work in the computer field at all, which is where his expertise is.
[15:25.640 --> 15:30.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that simply leaves a lot of possibilities closed.
[15:30.600 --> 15:36.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: And he wanted the restitution to be based on minimum wage.
[15:37.220 --> 15:42.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I believe the figure of something around $4,500 over three years was raised.
[15:44.140 --> 15:45.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: What happened to $80 million?
[15:46.100 --> 15:47.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that's the interesting thing.
[15:47.460 --> 15:51.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Even the government now has brought that figure down to $1.5 million.
[15:52.220 --> 15:53.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, that's interesting.
[15:53.320 --> 15:58.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: And at one point, at one point in time, they even said that it could be half that.
[15:58.880 --> 16:00.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: They said that very, very quickly.
[16:00.420 --> 16:00.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: It went by.
[16:00.960 --> 16:03.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure how many people actually caught that, but I'm sure it'll be in the court transcript.
[16:05.460 --> 16:14.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: The interesting thing was when the government was giving their arguments, they were kind of put in a weird position where they had to say that Kevin is a bright person.
[16:15.000 --> 16:16.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: He has potential.
[16:16.040 --> 16:17.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: He can learn things.
[16:17.080 --> 16:21.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: He can make a living doing something else and pick up a different trade and pay them the money they want.
[16:21.820 --> 16:30.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: So they had to say all these good things about Kevin in order to convince the judge that he could make more than minimum wage.
[16:32.240 --> 16:44.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: The judge, I think, came down as hard on the government as she did on Don Randolph and was constantly berating them for various issues.
[16:44.660 --> 17:02.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: One thing that came up, of course, was the fact that the documents that we put on our website a month or so ago, as you recall, Kevin's lawyer was being threatened with contempt of court for leaking those documents, even though there is no evidence that he leaked the documents.
[17:02.480 --> 17:08.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, Bob, I'm not going to comment on who leaked the documents, but the whole thing is pretty silly, if you ask me.
[17:11.440 --> 17:13.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: So she seemed pretty upset that this was even an issue.
[17:14.020 --> 17:23.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: She said that never before has she seen a case where there have been so many filings, so many motions, it's a big waste of time, and you people are all a bunch of childish, you know.
[17:24.940 --> 17:33.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: She just was going off on how silly the whole thing was, silly as far as wasting time with all this paperwork, and she wanted to get it over with.
[17:34.740 --> 17:41.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: And she also wanted to know from the government what they intended to do about Mr. Randolph, if they intended to try and hold him on contempt of court.
[17:44.880 --> 17:50.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Basically, the government seemed to not pursue that as strongly as I expected them to.
[17:52.880 --> 17:59.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: They kind of just wanted to say that it was wrong and that they're not going to talk about it in the future publicly.
[17:59.680 --> 18:02.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is something that actually happened a few days earlier.
[18:02.600 --> 18:12.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: There was a ruling that the future discussion of restitution, specific restitution to the victims, how much goes to who, how much was lost.
[18:12.400 --> 18:13.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: The victims being the company?
[18:13.620 --> 18:14.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: The held in a secret.
[18:14.720 --> 18:15.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: You heard about this?
[18:15.500 --> 18:16.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I'm just trying to clarify.
[18:16.860 --> 18:20.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: The victims are the corporations like Nokia and...
[18:20.940 --> 18:26.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, they're everybody from the corporations, the cell phone company corporations, to Netcom, to the Well.
[18:27.500 --> 18:31.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: But there are no, like, specific people who are...
[18:31.120 --> 18:32.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, no, no individuals.
[18:32.520 --> 18:32.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[18:32.680 --> 18:33.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: No individuals at all.
[18:34.980 --> 18:42.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: So that is, that is what the issue was, that they would hold these hearings in secret.
[18:42.120 --> 18:43.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I thought that was, that was unbelievable.
[18:43.800 --> 18:45.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this really hasn't been reported very widely.
[18:46.340 --> 18:58.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're basically engineering a cover-up where this kind of information, information that we put up on our website, which I think was of interest to everybody, and I think it woke a lot of people up as to what this case is really about.
[18:58.700 --> 19:01.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Information like that will not be allowed to be seen.
[19:02.380 --> 19:04.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's just, to me, that's criminal.
[19:04.920 --> 19:09.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: We should know what people are saying Kevin did.
[19:10.020 --> 19:11.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, we should know these things.
[19:11.540 --> 19:12.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what the whole case is about.
[19:13.140 --> 19:14.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: How does it hurt Nokia?
[19:14.540 --> 19:15.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: How does it hurt Novell?
[19:15.740 --> 19:21.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: How does it hurt Sun to hear that they lost this amount of money because of Kevin?
[19:21.500 --> 19:24.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it only hurts them if they're lying.
[19:25.140 --> 19:31.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's what I have to assume is going on here, is that these are wildly fabricated figures.
[19:32.240 --> 19:39.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: But anyway, in yesterday's hearing, the figures were more or less rounded down to about 1.5 million.
[19:39.800 --> 19:40.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the interesting thing is...
[19:40.860 --> 19:41.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: In total or per?
[19:41.900 --> 19:54.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: I believe, well, the way the judge described it, she said this only covers the amount involving telephone fraud and investigation and fixing security holes and things like that.
[19:55.180 --> 20:03.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, as to the rest of it, I did not hear any mention as to source code, as to developmental costs, things like that.
[20:03.440 --> 20:13.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I've heard this from a couple of different sources, that that's kind of just not even going to be dealt with anymore because the whole thing was completely...
[20:14.120 --> 20:14.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bogus?
[20:14.620 --> 20:14.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: What's the word?
[20:15.080 --> 20:15.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Sorry?
[20:15.580 --> 20:15.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bogus?
[20:16.080 --> 20:17.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bogus is a good word for it, yeah.
[20:18.520 --> 20:19.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: So if that's true, that's good news.
[20:20.020 --> 20:22.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: 1.5 million does sound like a lot of money, and it is a lot of money.
[20:23.280 --> 20:31.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: But if the restitution is based on Kevin's ability to pay, it at least looks like it won't be a crippling order.
[20:31.840 --> 20:33.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the judge seemed to...
[20:33.780 --> 20:37.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: The judge kept saying, there is no doubt that there is significant damage here.
[20:37.620 --> 20:39.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: It made me want to stand up and scream.
[20:39.300 --> 20:52.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: But at the same time, while she was saying that, she was also saying that, obviously, this amount of restitution is going to be unreasonably high, and that it has to be based on something that he's able to pay.
[20:54.840 --> 20:59.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, as far as the case against Randolph, they kind of backed down on that.
[20:59.280 --> 21:05.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: They said that since we're keeping it secret now, that, you know, there's no need to proceed further.
[21:05.800 --> 21:08.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: They didn't actually say that specifically, but that seemed to be the impression I got.
[21:09.260 --> 21:20.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: The judge really lit into the government as far as telling them they have plenty of ways of preventing this from happening in the first place, your job to be protecting the victims.
[21:22.580 --> 21:25.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: And at one point, she said something I thought was really funny.
[21:25.580 --> 21:28.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: I sometimes wonder what is on your mind.
[21:28.340 --> 21:32.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: She said that to Chris Painter, one of the chief prosecutors.
[21:32.820 --> 21:44.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it was really funny because David Schindler, who is the main district attorney in this matter, kept jumping up to advise Painter on a couple of issues.
[21:44.700 --> 21:46.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they got chastised for that.
[21:46.760 --> 21:51.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: They said only one person can be presenting these arguments at one time.
[21:51.180 --> 21:56.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: And he was obviously trying to change their tactics midstream.
[21:56.680 --> 22:06.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right after he did that at one point, Painter suddenly brought up the case of Kevin Paulson, who was in the courtroom, as an example of a hacker who then went on to become a journalist.
[22:06.160 --> 22:07.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, look, see, it's possible.
[22:08.120 --> 22:12.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: A hacker can learn a new trade and make money and pay back the government for all the damage they caused.
[22:13.500 --> 22:15.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it was laughable, really.
[22:15.280 --> 22:16.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: I asked Paulson about this later.
[22:17.700 --> 22:21.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: He said what they seem to forget is that it takes a bit of skill to become a journalist in the first place.
[22:21.920 --> 22:24.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not something you can just snap your fingers and do.
[22:26.500 --> 22:31.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: So it was a kind of weird scene to see all this happening.
[22:31.660 --> 22:33.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it really was interesting.
[22:33.480 --> 22:35.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: I wouldn't say any of it was dull.
[22:37.000 --> 22:38.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: So where does this leave Kevin?
[22:38.640 --> 22:50.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, the interesting thing is that there are some issues still to be resolved as far as what kind of retribution they're talking about.
[22:50.740 --> 22:51.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Retribution, I'm sorry.
[22:51.640 --> 22:52.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: I keep saying that.
[22:52.500 --> 22:55.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean to say restitution, but it keeps coming out of retribution.
[22:55.480 --> 22:56.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know why that is.
[22:56.280 --> 22:57.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's something of a slip there, yeah.
[22:57.680 --> 23:03.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, now what the judge did was she said she wants to see no more motions, no more filings.
[23:03.960 --> 23:05.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: She's fed up with the whole thing.
[23:05.360 --> 23:12.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: And she told Randolph that he can file one more motion on no later than Thursday.
[23:14.200 --> 23:15.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that will be it.
[23:16.400 --> 23:17.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: That will be it.
[23:17.560 --> 23:21.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: And from that, she's going to determine the amount of restitution.
[23:22.220 --> 23:31.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, she wanted to meet again a week from yesterday to, I believe, the 19th of July to determine the sentencing.
[23:31.380 --> 23:32.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: She said, he will be sentenced.
[23:33.200 --> 23:35.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is not going to be delayed any longer.
[23:35.060 --> 23:35.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: He will be sentenced.
[23:36.520 --> 23:43.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Of course, that's when Don Randolph was on vacation, so he had to kind of beg to be given another extension.
[23:45.340 --> 23:49.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they extended it to the following Monday, July 26th.
[23:49.120 --> 23:56.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: So what that means is, without any doubt, no question about it, nothing can stop it, July 26th, Kevin Mitnick will finally be sentenced.
[23:56.280 --> 24:08.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: At that time, it will be decided what the amount of restitution will be, and it will be decided if he is to be released immediately into a halfway house and other such issues as that.
[24:08.500 --> 24:09.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[24:09.020 --> 24:13.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: So he's presently still in the detention facility.
[24:13.160 --> 24:15.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, he's back at the Metropolitan Detention Center.
[24:15.780 --> 24:19.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: But he can effectively count the number of days he has until sentencing on his fingers and toes.
[24:19.940 --> 24:31.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean things will be over, because even if the judge says he should be released immediately to a halfway house, it's the Bureau of Prisons that has to actually make that happen.
[24:32.160 --> 24:33.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: They can sit on it.
[24:33.640 --> 24:38.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: They can delay it for months, even, if they feel like it.
[24:38.960 --> 24:41.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: So it's important to keep the pressure on.
[24:41.580 --> 24:47.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, remember the case of Bernie S., where he was actually eligible to be released, and months went by and he was still in prison.
[24:48.220 --> 24:57.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: But it's more of a rhetorical how, like, how can this one, you know, division or bureau manage to keep somebody in jail after the court says you can let him go?
[24:58.160 --> 25:09.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, well, you see, what the court does is recommend something, and the Bureau of Prisons pretty much decides, the prison board decides how to implement it and when to implement it.
[25:10.060 --> 25:12.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: So if they're out to get you, they'll get you one way or another.
[25:12.820 --> 25:14.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: I wouldn't say they're necessarily out to get Kevin.
[25:14.620 --> 25:17.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, in fact, everyone seems to be very interested in Kevin's case.
[25:18.200 --> 25:24.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: I had a long talk with one of the security guards, you know, the guy that takes your bags and goes through it and takes out all the bombs and things.
[25:25.680 --> 25:26.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Files.
[25:26.280 --> 25:28.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, he was very interested in what happened in that courtroom.
[25:29.440 --> 25:30.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: He knew about Kevin's case.
[25:32.560 --> 25:36.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's funny because he asked how much money Kevin made, you know, doing what he did.
[25:36.980 --> 25:39.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I had to explain the whole thing as to how there was no money involved.
[25:39.680 --> 25:42.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now it was just curiosity looking at source code.
[25:42.160 --> 25:42.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: What was his reaction?
[25:43.500 --> 25:43.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sorry?
[25:44.020 --> 25:44.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: What was the guy's reaction?
[25:46.040 --> 25:47.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: He didn't seem shocked.
[25:47.700 --> 25:50.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, he was genuinely interested in it.
[25:50.200 --> 25:53.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, he was like everybody else.
[25:53.580 --> 25:55.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: When you tell them that, their attitude seems to change a bit.
[25:56.200 --> 25:57.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, that's all he did.
[25:57.680 --> 26:04.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Of course, when the media reports it differently, and of course the media has been getting it wrong even today, then people get other ideas.
[26:06.040 --> 26:09.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: So that is where it stands right now, July 26th.
[26:09.860 --> 26:14.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now that is when the federal case will be decided, completed, finished.
[26:14.700 --> 26:21.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now the prospect, and this is also very similar to what happened to Bernie asked, the prospect of a state case against Kevin Mitnick has been raised.
[26:21.980 --> 26:33.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, in fact, there was a hearing about that a few days ago where they basically set bail at a million dollars for the state case.
[26:33.380 --> 26:40.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: The state case involves something having to do with trying to get information out of the Department of Motor Vehicles.
[26:40.520 --> 26:44.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: I believe that is the single only charge that they are dealing with here.
[26:44.660 --> 26:47.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: If they tried to throw anything else in there, it would be double jeopardy and he walks.
[26:48.320 --> 26:48.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[26:48.640 --> 26:53.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, of course, the way things work in the computer world, they can throw the same thing in there and call it something else.
[26:53.960 --> 26:56.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: They can take wire fraud and call it computer fraud.
[26:56.920 --> 26:58.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: That way they can avoid double jeopardy.
[26:59.260 --> 27:03.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: But in this particular case, I believe it's only one charge having to do with trying to get information.
[27:04.100 --> 27:16.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm pretty sure it also has to do with getting information on Agent Steele, Justin Peterson, the hacker-turned-federal informant who was going around entrapping people and also ripping off the federal government at the same time.
[27:17.160 --> 27:26.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: I believe, if I don't have my facts wrong, that Kevin is accused of trying to find out information about this guy by requesting his DMV records.
[27:26.260 --> 27:30.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: And for that, they are holding bail on a million dollars.
[27:30.580 --> 27:44.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the real scary part about this is that when Kevin does get released from federal prison, he could immediately be taken into custody by the state then and put into a much worse place than the Metropolitan Detention Center, something like a county jail.
[27:44.860 --> 27:47.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's what we're trying to avoid.
[27:47.360 --> 27:50.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: So this case is by no means over even when the sentencing happens.
[27:50.760 --> 27:52.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: The nightmare just keeps going on.
[27:54.000 --> 27:56.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: But he appeared to be in good spirits at the trial.
[27:56.700 --> 27:58.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: He seemed really, really confident.
[27:59.080 --> 28:00.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I didn't even recognize him at first.
[28:00.840 --> 28:08.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: I expected to see someone who had been broken, someone who had been victimized for over four years.
[28:08.120 --> 28:12.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: I saw someone, you know, bright-eyed, confident, looking really sharp.
[28:12.840 --> 28:16.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was just wondering, who is this businessman walking in in handcuffs?
[28:17.840 --> 28:19.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it was Kevin.
[28:20.000 --> 28:22.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: He looked better than I've seen him.
[28:22.600 --> 28:26.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I haven't seen him since 1990 in person, but he looked really good.
[28:26.780 --> 28:30.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I just hope that he's able to hold that spirit until the day he gets out.
[28:31.420 --> 28:33.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, our hearts and minds are with him.
[28:34.080 --> 28:38.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: So basically, I guess the best thing to tell people is to keep an eye on the situation.
[28:38.540 --> 28:43.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Check the websites, www.26turn.com and also www.freekevin.com.
[28:43.820 --> 28:52.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: So we'll have constant updates on there, as well as any particular drives, demonstrations, whatnot.
[28:52.600 --> 28:55.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: One thing I have to tell people, it does make a difference.
[28:55.980 --> 28:56.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: It really does.
[28:56.760 --> 29:01.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: I spent some time with Kevin's family last night, and his mother and father for the first time.
[29:02.540 --> 29:08.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: And what people out there are doing is making such a difference to them.
[29:09.060 --> 29:12.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: They felt so alone beforehand, but when people start contributing...
[29:12.740 --> 29:17.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: And Kevin's grandmother gets letters from all kinds of different people, 12-year-old kids.
[29:17.740 --> 29:18.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: It means so much more to her.
[29:19.020 --> 29:21.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oftentimes, she writes back to them.
[29:22.620 --> 29:24.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: She thanks them for their generosity.
[29:24.700 --> 29:30.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Even if they send the $5 bill, it just means so much to them to contribute to the case.
[29:30.440 --> 29:32.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it means so much to her to hear from people.
[29:33.460 --> 29:34.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: So it really makes a difference.
[29:34.940 --> 29:42.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: People who turn out for the demonstrations, people who just support the cause in any way by getting bumper stickers or buttons or whatever.
[29:43.960 --> 29:46.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's just improved things so much.
[29:46.740 --> 29:48.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: It could have been a lot worse.
[29:48.200 --> 29:53.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: It could have been a really gloomy thing where everybody forgot about the case and Kevin was just in there by himself.
[29:53.880 --> 29:54.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: He knows he's got support.
[29:54.800 --> 29:56.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: He saw a packed courtroom yesterday.
[29:57.900 --> 29:59.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's a lot of media coverage.
[29:59.200 --> 30:02.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sure if you look in newspapers, you'll see stories about Kevin.
[30:03.160 --> 30:07.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's interesting that they actually had so much coverage, even though he didn't actually get sentenced yesterday.
[30:07.240 --> 30:10.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: That means when he finally does get sentenced, I'm sure there'll be even more press coverage.
[30:11.260 --> 30:16.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: And also, we do want to get people out to the federal courtroom in Los Angeles next...
[30:16.800 --> 30:23.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: The final sentencing hearing, which is Monday, July 26th, I believe it's at 1.30 p.m.
[30:23.080 --> 30:23.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: as well.
[30:23.580 --> 30:25.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: But we'll check into that and confirm it.
[30:25.880 --> 30:33.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: So if you're in the Los Angeles area or the California area, or if you want to go there, check out the website.
[30:33.440 --> 30:34.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: So listen to the radio show.
[30:34.380 --> 30:37.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: We'll give you the specific information as to how to get there, where to go.
[30:39.680 --> 30:44.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: The courthouse is on Spring Street in Los Angeles, and it's fairly easy to get to.
[30:44.980 --> 30:48.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: As opposed to Spring Street here in New York, which is 3,000 miles...
[30:48.240 --> 30:48.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we're near there.
[30:48.900 --> 30:49.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[30:50.560 --> 30:51.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've got a couple of news items.
[30:52.040 --> 30:55.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure if you have anything over on your end, but we can take some phone calls after this if you want.
[30:55.680 --> 30:56.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, go for the news.
[30:56.700 --> 30:58.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Sure, there's some listeners that might want to call.
[30:59.180 --> 31:01.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: PortShop's here, too, and he wants to say a few words.
[31:03.240 --> 31:05.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm assuming there's only one phone, so...
[31:05.140 --> 31:06.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there's only one phone, so I'll have to pass around.
[31:06.780 --> 31:07.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're in a hotel room right now.
[31:07.840 --> 31:09.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm about to head back to Vegas, actually.
[31:11.920 --> 31:13.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's an interesting thing about E-ZPass.
[31:15.000 --> 31:16.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: We all know what E-ZPass is.
[31:17.440 --> 31:17.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[31:18.140 --> 31:22.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's the thing you stick on your car that allows you to go through a toll booth without paying.
[31:22.640 --> 31:24.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, actually, that's not exactly true.
[31:25.020 --> 31:25.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: You do pay.
[31:25.880 --> 31:29.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: It just gets deducted from an account instead of you having to hand over money to a clerk.
[31:31.260 --> 31:32.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, this is interesting.
[31:32.220 --> 31:34.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: I read this, actually, on the plane over.
[31:35.160 --> 31:39.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: I read, I think, every newspaper published on the way over, because that's what I do when I fly.
[31:40.060 --> 31:43.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they didn't have any film or anything like that, so I just had to keep myself occupied.
[31:44.940 --> 31:45.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Some people sleep.
[31:46.640 --> 31:50.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of people do, and I don't know how they're able to do that, because you're up there 40,000 feet in the air.
[31:50.660 --> 31:51.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know how you can sleep.
[31:52.280 --> 31:53.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just can't do it.
[31:53.720 --> 31:55.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm always looking at these...
[31:55.140 --> 31:59.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, they have these magazines, these airplane magazines.
[31:59.160 --> 32:01.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, the, if we crash and die, here's how...
[32:01.560 --> 32:03.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, not the pamphlet that tells you how to survive in the water.
[32:03.900 --> 32:10.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I mean, the magazines that tell you all about the newest in technology and things, you know, the super glossy ones.
[32:11.020 --> 32:11.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, right, right, right.
[32:11.820 --> 32:23.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: They always have the same ad in there about how it's possible to buy this device that completely evades radar and laser technology from police.
[32:23.040 --> 32:27.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: In other words, you can drive your car through a speed trap and not be caught.
[32:28.180 --> 32:37.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: And somehow they're advertising this and saying that it's perfectly legal, as opposed to radar detectors, which simply tell you that there's radar in the area.
[32:37.760 --> 32:41.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: What these devices do is they send back spurious signals to the police.
[32:41.460 --> 32:53.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: They send back two signals, one saying you're going six miles an hour, one saying you're going 600 miles an hour, and it confuses the radar equipment, and it's not illegal, according to them.
[32:53.860 --> 32:55.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it depends on where you are.
[32:55.760 --> 33:03.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: What they don't seem to understand is that when you're in an airplane at 40,000 feet, you don't want to be reading about how it's possible to completely screw up radar.
[33:05.220 --> 33:10.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: And so you're thinking of all the things that can happen with these people and their technology.
[33:10.800 --> 33:13.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: So I see that same ad every time I travel, too.
[33:14.940 --> 33:20.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: And then plus the fact that I was on an airplane that seemed to be named after an explosive.
[33:20.100 --> 33:20.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was on an M-80.
[33:22.320 --> 33:26.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I had never heard of that kind of plane before, but that was rather unsettling.
[33:26.540 --> 33:27.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, about E-ZPass.
[33:28.560 --> 33:31.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: This was in the New York Times on Wednesday the 7th.
[33:31.900 --> 33:41.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Port Authority of New York and New Jersey officials this month will begin mailing letters to 60,000 toll cheaters who have driven through cashless toll lanes without the necessary E-ZPass electronic tag.
[33:41.860 --> 33:46.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Their license plate numbers were caught on videotape at four toll bridges and two tunnels.
[33:47.160 --> 33:51.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Port Authority officials said the deadbeats owe $3.3 million in tolls and late fees.
[33:52.100 --> 34:01.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: If the E-ZPass jumpers refused to pay the $4 toll plus a $25 administrative fee, the Port Authority threatens to notify credit rating agencies and to take the drivers to small claims court.
[34:02.760 --> 34:10.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: I didn't realize that the people who didn't sign up for E-ZPass were, you know, requiring credit to go through there.
[34:11.000 --> 34:14.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, now, the interesting thing is that how long has E-ZPass been around?
[34:15.040 --> 34:16.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it depends on where you're talking about.
[34:16.520 --> 34:17.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Here in New York?
[34:17.620 --> 34:18.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: About a while.
[34:18.140 --> 34:18.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: A couple years now.
[34:18.700 --> 34:20.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, a couple years in New York and elsewhere.
[34:20.740 --> 34:24.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're just starting to send the letters now for people who don't pay?
[34:24.800 --> 34:25.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, they're busy.
[34:26.400 --> 34:28.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, look at this article.
[34:28.320 --> 34:30.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: It says they will begin.
[34:30.200 --> 34:32.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: They will begin later this month to do this.
[34:32.800 --> 34:36.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Does that mean that you can still drive through those cashless tollways?
[34:36.940 --> 34:41.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: And not have to worry until the year 2002, assuming, you know, society survives this whole Y2K thing.
[34:42.320 --> 34:43.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's not a bad deal.
[34:43.580 --> 34:47.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: It basically means that they've been getting a free ride all these months?
[34:48.280 --> 34:50.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's catching up to them now.
[34:50.180 --> 34:57.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I guess it is, but also they're sending a big warning saying that we're going to start doing this now.
[34:58.400 --> 35:02.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it hasn't happened yet, and I mean, you still have some time to get your free toll.
[35:02.200 --> 35:02.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know, you know.
[35:03.000 --> 35:08.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have an E-ZPass with my car, so I can't really test that myself unless I take it off and live dangerously.
[35:08.560 --> 35:10.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: And didn't you get one of those little baggies that you...
[35:10.700 --> 35:14.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you have the little, you know, the bags that prevent it from...
[35:14.320 --> 35:15.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Little Faraday bags.
[35:15.400 --> 35:17.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but I don't know.
[35:17.260 --> 35:20.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just curious why they would tell people this.
[35:20.200 --> 35:22.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: I always assumed that's what they were doing all along.
[35:22.300 --> 35:35.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Does anyone out there who has been making a habit of speeding through E-ZPass lanes without paying, let us know what your life of crime has gotten you, and if you've saved hundreds of dollars by using our bridges and tunnels without paying for them, we'd like to know about it.
[35:36.140 --> 35:43.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, the conscious New Yorker can actually get anywhere within the city for zero, not even paying a toll.
[35:43.700 --> 35:44.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Explain this.
[35:44.340 --> 35:48.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can actually manage to navigate around the city without having to pay a toll, for instance.
[35:48.880 --> 35:49.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: And how would you do that?
[35:49.940 --> 35:56.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, the last time I went down to Delaware, I spent $15, all of it on gas.
[35:57.180 --> 36:04.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: I took the Queensborough, and then I took the tunnel to escape, and then coming back, I went across the...
[36:04.300 --> 36:04.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[36:05.000 --> 36:06.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: I paid $4 to the Narrows.
[36:06.180 --> 36:07.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what I'm trying to figure out.
[36:07.300 --> 36:10.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I paid $4 on the Narrows after the Outer Bridge crossing.
[36:10.860 --> 36:11.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: So you did pay a toll.
[36:11.960 --> 36:12.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I did pay a toll.
[36:13.280 --> 36:14.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, I'm sorry.
[36:14.220 --> 36:17.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it might be able to avoid that toll if you drive up to, I think, Albany.
[36:18.380 --> 36:18.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[36:18.960 --> 36:20.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Across the river up there.
[36:20.340 --> 36:21.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then come back down on the other side.
[36:21.980 --> 36:22.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Come back down, and yeah.
[36:23.060 --> 36:25.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, then you get hit by the Triborough, so...
[36:25.560 --> 36:25.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anyway...
[36:25.920 --> 36:29.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, no, not if you go down by way of the Bronx.
[36:30.000 --> 36:30.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, that's true.
[36:30.880 --> 36:31.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Like by Henry Hudson or something.
[36:31.860 --> 36:33.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Although I think they have a 30-cent toll on that.
[36:33.360 --> 36:34.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, there's a way.
[36:34.800 --> 36:35.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: There is a way.
[36:35.380 --> 36:36.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: There are ways.
[36:36.320 --> 36:36.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can...
[36:36.860 --> 36:38.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: And if you have a way, please let us know.
[36:39.640 --> 36:42.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because we want to educate people on these things.
[36:43.100 --> 36:44.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: So we want to take some calls?
[36:44.480 --> 36:46.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, actually, there's a couple more news items.
[36:46.180 --> 36:46.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, you have more?
[36:46.760 --> 36:48.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: You have more news?
[36:48.220 --> 36:50.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, you might have heard about this, being a Sprint PCS customer.
[36:50.880 --> 36:52.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is in all the papers last week.
[36:54.660 --> 36:59.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Apparently, Sprint PCS is being accused of charging people for uncompleted phone calls.
[36:59.640 --> 37:00.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know about this?
[37:00.980 --> 37:01.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: No.
[37:01.760 --> 37:04.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Whether it's local or long-distance, home phone or payphone, it's understood.
[37:05.080 --> 37:05.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: A call starts with hello.
[37:05.980 --> 37:07.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: If there's no answer, there's no charge.
[37:07.980 --> 37:12.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: But most mobile phone companies charge from the moment the caller hits the send button.
[37:13.580 --> 37:18.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: And some industry leaders, such as Sprint PCS, charge for calls, even if there's no answer.
[37:19.960 --> 37:23.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, I think this is amazing, because I've tested Sprint PCS.
[37:23.880 --> 37:26.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've tested them on a number of occasions for just this.
[37:26.260 --> 37:30.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I have to disagree with this story, because they don't seem to do that.
[37:30.700 --> 37:33.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure where these accusations are coming from, or maybe.
[37:33.680 --> 37:39.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: But what possibly is happening is that if you're outside your local area, maybe they do it then.
[37:39.920 --> 37:42.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm testing that out here, since I'm outside my local area right now.
[37:43.460 --> 37:56.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: But according to the story that ran on the Associated Press, and it appeared in just about every newspaper I could find, Sprint PCS and Nextel Communications are among those who time calls from send to end and charge for a minute, regardless of whether there's an answer.
[37:58.140 --> 38:03.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Of course, the other companies that do this are the old-fashioned cellular companies that charge you as soon as you hit the send button.
[38:04.180 --> 38:06.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: The old analog cellular companies did that.
[38:06.480 --> 38:12.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it kind of makes sense in that you are chewing up one of the channels in the air.
[38:12.180 --> 38:18.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, but you're also chewing up wire time if you don't use a cordless phone.
[38:19.100 --> 38:21.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's a lot more finite than airwaves.
[38:23.440 --> 38:25.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: We could disagree about that, but we won't.
[38:27.060 --> 38:29.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Plus, you know, a busy signal, I suppose, takes up time.
[38:30.840 --> 38:31.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.
[38:31.600 --> 38:32.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's all kinds of things you could say.
[38:33.420 --> 38:39.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, while you're talking on your mobile phone, nobody else can use that channel if you're getting a busy signal.
[38:39.680 --> 38:44.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, yeah, you're billed for the time it takes for you to connect to the cell site.
[38:44.900 --> 38:46.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: So you think the people...
[38:46.300 --> 38:47.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not saying it's right.
[38:47.580 --> 38:49.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm just giving you the company's rationale.
[38:50.100 --> 38:52.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Those people that are flashing on our phone right now, you see them?
[38:52.560 --> 38:53.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's a lot of them right there.
[38:53.600 --> 38:54.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, there are.
[38:54.380 --> 38:57.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: They should all be paying to hear the phone ring.
[38:58.760 --> 39:03.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you applied the cellular company's argument to copper, yes.
[39:04.520 --> 39:05.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not saying it's right.
[39:05.760 --> 39:07.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm saying that that's what they're thinking.
[39:08.040 --> 39:16.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, the point is that it's always been the case that a ring is not the same as a conversation.
[39:17.880 --> 39:23.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that the cost of the conversation offsets whatever cost is involved in getting to the conversation.
[39:24.180 --> 39:31.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's a very small percentage of calls that never result in the conversation simply are carried by those charges, and it's not a big deal.
[39:31.920 --> 39:33.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think what we're dealing with here is greed.
[39:34.040 --> 39:34.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[39:34.420 --> 39:40.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: The same kind of greed that allows payphone operators to somehow charge for using 800 numbers now.
[39:40.940 --> 39:42.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's twofold.
[39:42.420 --> 39:46.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's greed and the submission of the people who actually deal with the technology.
[39:47.320 --> 39:47.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[39:47.920 --> 39:51.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, accepting this kind of thing is really what's bad.
[39:51.440 --> 40:01.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, what's interesting is that if you have an Omnipoint phone, you'll notice that when you dial a number, the timer on your phone does not actually start until the call is answered.
[40:02.020 --> 40:07.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: So it's very definite with GSM technology that that is the case, that it does not charge you beforehand.
[40:07.980 --> 40:11.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: With Sprint, the counter starts as soon as you hit send.
[40:11.500 --> 40:15.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: That does not necessarily mean, though, that billing starts when you hit the send button.
[40:15.700 --> 40:21.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think what a lot of reporters might have been doing is using a Sprint PCS phone and seeing the timer start and saying, aha, that means something.
[40:22.300 --> 40:25.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: What I suggest people do is make some test phone calls.
[40:26.100 --> 40:27.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Call something that doesn't answer.
[40:27.500 --> 40:28.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Call a busy signal.
[40:28.320 --> 40:29.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Call the intercept recording.
[40:29.600 --> 40:31.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, something that tells you the phone number's been changed.
[40:32.260 --> 40:33.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And see what happens.
[40:33.440 --> 40:34.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've done this already.
[40:35.280 --> 40:36.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: So share with us your results.
[40:37.960 --> 40:40.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Share with us your results and save us all the time.
[40:40.660 --> 40:41.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: They did not charge.
[40:41.760 --> 40:43.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: They did not charge for this kind of thing.
[40:43.880 --> 40:44.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[40:44.480 --> 40:45.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: So that's why I'm kind of surprised.
[40:45.900 --> 40:49.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: That sounds awfully familiar to my billing statements where my telephone says...
[40:49.240 --> 40:51.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you look at this Sprint contract, though, you will see that they say that they do.
[40:51.400 --> 40:54.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: That they do charge from the send, where you hit the send button.
[40:55.220 --> 40:56.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know why they say that.
[40:56.600 --> 41:02.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it might have something to do with their old, you know, another type of phone service that just had the same contract.
[41:02.840 --> 41:03.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure.
[41:03.820 --> 41:08.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: But I do know that when I tried this locally, and this was a few months ago, they did not charge.
[41:08.360 --> 41:12.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, whether that happens outside the area, whether that happens for everybody, whether I just got lucky, I don't know.
[41:13.280 --> 41:19.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: So let's get the facts on this before we start saying things that might not be true.
[41:20.140 --> 41:20.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: A good point.
[41:23.860 --> 41:25.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're continuing a rumor then.
[41:26.500 --> 41:26.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Ooh.
[41:27.420 --> 41:28.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's not good.
[41:28.420 --> 41:28.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: No.
[41:29.120 --> 41:29.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Paul Trapp is here.
[41:29.920 --> 41:32.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's been on the road with us for this whole trip.
[41:33.380 --> 41:36.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: So I'm going to hand him over for a few minutes, and we'll come back and take some phone calls.
[41:37.060 --> 41:37.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: All righty.
[41:39.420 --> 41:40.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello, world.
[41:40.380 --> 41:41.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello, Porkchop.
[41:41.380 --> 41:42.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: How are you doing over there in New York?
[41:43.100 --> 41:49.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, it's sunny and beautiful, as opposed to the dark cloud of doom that seems to be following Emmanuel everywhere.
[41:49.520 --> 41:51.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can see it coming over the horizon right now.
[41:51.420 --> 41:55.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, it's going to get pretty hairy over here in a couple of minutes, I think.
[41:55.820 --> 41:56.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's always fun.
[41:56.640 --> 42:00.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I want to thank everybody who donated to the Kevin Fund at DEFCON.
[42:00.580 --> 42:03.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: We had $281 worth of donators just at DEFCON.
[42:03.740 --> 42:06.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: And TCF and Hamfest also.
[42:07.120 --> 42:11.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're handing over some money to the Mitnicks from Reba.
[42:11.440 --> 42:15.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin's grandmother was very happy when we handed over the $281 we had.
[42:15.860 --> 42:18.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: And she said something that I think is really true.
[42:19.260 --> 42:32.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not only the money that is being handed over to the defense fund, but it's the fact that everybody who donated really cares enough to donate however much they donated for someone else that's in trouble and might be them in the future.
[42:32.940 --> 42:34.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think that's really true.
[42:34.060 --> 42:40.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think everybody who donates to the defense fund needs a little round of applause and a slap on the back.
[42:41.240 --> 42:41.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: True enough.
[42:42.060 --> 42:42.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: True enough.
[42:43.500 --> 42:44.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's see.
[42:44.360 --> 42:45.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: A friendly slap on the back.
[42:45.660 --> 42:46.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's why we slap on the back.
[42:46.820 --> 42:46.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[42:47.580 --> 42:51.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not a slap in the face or throwing water in the face or anything like that.
[42:53.260 --> 42:57.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: One other thing that I just... I still laugh at right now.
[42:58.240 --> 43:18.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: The government, during the trial, or during the sentencing, there's one point where the second lawyer, there are two lawyers per team, and one lawyer, one of the government's lawyers was up talking, and the second one came up and asked to make a point as well.
[43:18.760 --> 43:20.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: He said, can I just make one point?
[43:21.020 --> 43:22.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: The judge said immediately, no.
[43:23.000 --> 43:28.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: The guy kept on going anyway because he didn't hear the no, but he eventually figured it out and sort of paused.
[43:29.200 --> 43:30.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was really amusing.
[43:30.400 --> 43:30.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sorry.
[43:31.480 --> 43:32.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: He had to be there.
[43:33.880 --> 43:34.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[43:34.520 --> 43:36.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, very good.
[43:38.580 --> 43:41.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: You want to hand the phone back over to Emmanuel and we can take some calls?
[43:41.380 --> 43:42.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yep, that's going to be it.
[43:42.800 --> 43:43.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Cool deal.
[43:43.440 --> 43:44.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good talking to you.
[43:44.040 --> 43:44.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: See you later.
[43:47.200 --> 43:47.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Howdy.
[43:47.880 --> 43:48.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello, man.
[43:48.480 --> 43:50.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: That person actually was David Schindler.
[43:50.640 --> 43:53.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: That person was referring to the head district attorney.
[43:53.260 --> 43:56.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: For him to be chastised like that, I think, was just a tad embarrassing.
[43:57.580 --> 43:58.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: And incredibly ironic.
[43:59.160 --> 44:00.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it was.
[44:00.120 --> 44:00.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: It really was.
[44:00.780 --> 44:02.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: But I want to thank everybody for showing up.
[44:02.440 --> 44:05.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: That really was a very noble show of support.
[44:05.920 --> 44:12.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And please try to be there if you're in the Los Angeles area, if you can get there on Monday, July 26th.
[44:12.580 --> 44:13.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: I believe it's 1.30 p.m.
[44:13.880 --> 44:16.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: But again, double check the website for that information.
[44:16.180 --> 44:19.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: But please try to show up and let's get some support.
[44:19.440 --> 44:20.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: I really do think it made a difference.
[44:20.600 --> 44:27.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: I really do think it makes a difference when there's a strong showing in a courtroom to the way things turn out.
[44:28.320 --> 44:34.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I heard this from several people that this was the first hearing that actually seemed to show some cause for optimism.
[44:35.680 --> 44:36.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Very good.
[44:37.080 --> 44:37.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Alright, you want to take some phone calls?
[44:38.160 --> 44:39.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, let's do right then.
[44:39.680 --> 44:40.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: What's our phone number?
[44:41.440 --> 44:43.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: 212-209-2900.
[44:43.640 --> 44:43.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[44:44.340 --> 44:46.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, Claude, hit that magic button.
[44:46.120 --> 44:47.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's take our first phone call.
[44:48.600 --> 44:49.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello, and you're on the air.
[44:50.540 --> 44:51.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, hi.
[44:52.820 --> 44:57.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: On completed calls on Nextel, they charge from send to end.
[44:57.400 --> 44:58.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: You verified this?
[44:59.240 --> 45:01.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm on a Nextel now, and I know it.
[45:02.220 --> 45:02.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[45:03.140 --> 45:04.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is on completed calls.
[45:05.940 --> 45:06.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[45:06.620 --> 45:08.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's a very interesting...
[45:08.000 --> 45:11.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know anything about Nextel except that you can open up speakers and things like that.
[45:12.780 --> 45:17.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: But if the company itself admits to this, have you ever asked them point blank?
[45:17.700 --> 45:18.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[45:19.580 --> 45:25.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's actually not my phone, but I know the billing on it, and there have been numerous problems with the billing.
[45:26.420 --> 45:26.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[45:26.760 --> 45:34.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's on a corporate account, and accounts were added to that, or phones were added to that account without permission.
[45:35.800 --> 45:36.120]  Hmm.
[45:36.940 --> 45:38.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: It sounds like an interesting company.
[45:38.260 --> 45:39.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: We should do more with them.
[45:40.500 --> 45:40.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[45:41.180 --> 45:42.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Nextel is a fun one to work with.
[45:42.900 --> 45:43.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[45:43.800 --> 45:51.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I wanted to encourage everybody to remember that it's not over.
[45:52.500 --> 45:59.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because I know in the next couple of weeks there's still going to be people unsubscribing from the list, stop checking the webpage and everything.
[46:00.340 --> 46:02.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: The case is not over.
[46:02.360 --> 46:04.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not over until he's free.
[46:05.020 --> 46:12.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: And by free I mean able to speak on subjects he wants to talk about, able to talk about computers, able to use computers.
[46:13.440 --> 46:13.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's...
[46:13.840 --> 46:15.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, we've got a long way to go.
[46:16.240 --> 46:16.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[46:16.780 --> 46:17.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[46:17.240 --> 46:18.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I also...
[46:19.040 --> 46:19.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry.
[46:19.800 --> 46:21.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: I also wanted to ask you...
[46:21.460 --> 46:23.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: I talked to you about this some time ago.
[46:23.200 --> 46:25.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Did you ever find out what kind of laptops it was that he had?
[46:26.600 --> 46:28.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, what kind of laptop he had?
[46:28.580 --> 46:29.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not entirely sure.
[46:30.040 --> 46:30.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Does anybody here know that?
[46:31.680 --> 46:32.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: That Kevin had...
[46:32.980 --> 46:33.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, you got me.
[46:34.680 --> 46:35.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can't say for sure.
[46:36.000 --> 46:37.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: I know there are people who know this.
[46:37.540 --> 46:39.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: I know some of the people who have been working on the case.
[46:39.580 --> 46:40.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can try to find out.
[46:40.660 --> 46:41.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure.
[46:41.600 --> 46:44.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is there some relevant reason why you need to know that?
[46:44.380 --> 46:50.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I'm just curious because it didn't pop up until recently where I thought mentioned that he had three or four that were confiscated.
[46:50.760 --> 46:51.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[46:51.680 --> 46:52.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[46:52.120 --> 46:58.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I was just curious, because of the times and everything, like, what kind of equipment he had.
[46:59.380 --> 46:59.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[46:59.980 --> 47:00.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can tell you this.
[47:00.640 --> 47:05.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: The courtroom had a window system in the front of the room.
[47:05.740 --> 47:06.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[47:06.180 --> 47:06.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: That must have been interesting.
[47:07.320 --> 47:07.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[47:07.860 --> 47:08.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: How many times have you pressed?
[47:09.020 --> 47:09.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: They weren't giving a Mac.
[47:09.980 --> 47:11.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, you can't be perfect.
[47:12.160 --> 47:13.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, you know who else uses window systems?
[47:14.180 --> 47:18.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: We went in the Los Angeles subway system, and we were wandering around there.
[47:18.600 --> 47:25.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: They have about three or four stations, and they have all these environmental controls at every single station, and it's all running on windows.
[47:26.080 --> 47:31.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: That frightens me beyond anything I could have previously known.
[47:32.160 --> 47:32.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[47:33.780 --> 47:35.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: I wish I had known that before DEFCON, actually.
[47:36.780 --> 47:39.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, you didn't get one of the BO2K disks to bring in you?
[47:39.820 --> 47:40.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, no, no.
[47:40.840 --> 47:41.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Unfortunately not.
[47:41.860 --> 47:42.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: That could have been fun.
[47:42.700 --> 47:43.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: But there's always next year.
[47:44.480 --> 47:45.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go to another caller.
[47:45.780 --> 47:48.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Emmanuel, we've got a short period for calls.
[47:48.500 --> 47:49.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's take some, okay?
[47:49.620 --> 47:51.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, we've got a clock here in Los Angeles.
[47:51.680 --> 47:52.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, yeah, I can tell.
[47:52.260 --> 47:53.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: We only have about, what, uh...
[47:53.660 --> 47:55.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: 12 minutes and 30 seconds.
[47:55.920 --> 47:56.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: How long?
[47:56.660 --> 47:59.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, till the hour, which means we have 10 minutes and 30 seconds.
[47:59.620 --> 47:59.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, 10 minutes.
[48:00.060 --> 48:00.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, fine.
[48:00.520 --> 48:01.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have plenty of time.
[48:01.660 --> 48:02.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, let's take our next call.
[48:02.820 --> 48:03.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[48:06.020 --> 48:06.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello?
[48:08.860 --> 48:09.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello, you're on the air.
[48:09.740 --> 48:22.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, I'd like to ask, what level, uh, chip, uh, do you, that doesn't have the, uh, that you can't, they can't get you on the security thing on the Internet to find out who you are with a cookie or something?
[48:23.540 --> 48:24.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[48:24.100 --> 48:30.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: What, what's, what's a safe chip to, what's the highest, the fastest chip you can get that won't...
[48:30.400 --> 48:35.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're alluding to the Pentium 3, uh, internal serial number, or...
[48:35.380 --> 48:36.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, right.
[48:36.300 --> 48:38.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's, it, it starts with Pentium 3?
[48:38.820 --> 48:47.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, well, it's, it has existed with Pentium 2 in some of the later models, so I've heard people bouncing ideas around.
[48:47.380 --> 48:55.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, yes, uh, the Pentium 3 is the one with the interesting, uh, serial number, uh, put right on there and accessible.
[48:56.040 --> 49:00.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, uh, my opinion on the matter is that you have other things to worry about.
[49:01.400 --> 49:01.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Really?
[49:02.080 --> 49:02.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Why?
[49:04.760 --> 49:05.200]  Um...
[49:05.200 --> 49:06.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: There are many ways to be found.
[49:07.100 --> 49:07.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[49:07.560 --> 49:22.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, as far as, for instance, just deleting a file, you think it's gone, you even wipe the file, you think it's gone, there's references to it, there's pointers, there's, there's backed up data in other parts of your drive, uh, and there's all kinds of IDs that can be attached to particular documents.
[49:23.420 --> 49:30.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, the Pentium 3 thing, it's, it's something to think about, but it's by no means, uh, the only thing to think about.
[49:30.100 --> 49:30.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh...
[49:30.240 --> 49:31.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, I, I see.
[49:31.640 --> 49:33.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, it's not worth really spending too much time on.
[49:34.600 --> 49:42.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I mean, you should be educated, obviously, on, on, on how everything is, is, is, is, you know, cooperating with each other to track you.
[49:43.020 --> 49:45.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, but don't think that there's just one.
[49:45.640 --> 49:46.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[49:46.500 --> 49:48.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Can you, where can I find out some more about this?
[49:48.800 --> 49:49.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the Pentium 3?
[49:50.180 --> 50:05.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, you can go to the Intel website, otherwise, uh, use a standard search engine and, uh, look up, uh, Pentium 3, uh, let's see, uh, NSA, uh, identification, serial number, throw in any kind of words you could think about.
[50:06.440 --> 50:07.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, if you're looking for...
[50:07.700 --> 50:08.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: USENET use groups too.
[50:08.580 --> 50:09.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, USENET's always good.
[50:09.420 --> 50:14.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you're looking for, uh, uh, a fast chip though, you, you're not necessarily stuck with Intel.
[50:15.220 --> 50:23.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, you can get a K6, you can, uh, go to a couple of the other, uh, chip makers and manage to get something.
[50:23.140 --> 50:23.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, how about AMD?
[50:23.900 --> 50:24.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: AMD.
[50:24.700 --> 50:25.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are they okay?
[50:26.040 --> 50:27.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: They don't have a serial number.
[50:27.560 --> 50:28.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's the K6.
[50:28.640 --> 50:29.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, great.
[50:30.100 --> 50:33.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, again, there, there, there are other things to worry about.
[50:34.100 --> 50:39.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, I find it rather amusing that the Chinese have, uh, uh, been up in arms recently.
[50:39.780 --> 50:48.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was something I just read earlier that the Chinese don't want to import Pentium 3s or, uh, Microsoft Windows 98, or was it Windows 2000?
[50:48.520 --> 51:06.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because they're worried about the, the tracking ability of, uh, of the other companies to see just who they are, which is ironic to no end since the Chinese have been, uh, trying to get as, their hands on as many small machines as they possibly can to build large Beowulf clusters to...
[51:06.200 --> 51:11.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, if you just classify Pentium 3 as a military secret, I'm sure it will make its way over there anyway.
[51:11.840 --> 51:12.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's true.
[51:13.240 --> 51:16.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: The design is only accessible through the Department of Energy.
[51:16.980 --> 51:18.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Therefore, yeah, it gets right over.
[51:19.460 --> 51:19.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[51:20.600 --> 51:25.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, well, can you tell me where I can find out about all the other things I should be watching out for?
[51:26.540 --> 51:26.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Geez.
[51:26.800 --> 51:30.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's, there's, there's newsletters you can be reading, uh, Comp.Risks obviously is one of them.
[51:31.040 --> 51:32.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is there a place you can get that?
[51:32.540 --> 51:33.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is there a news group?
[51:33.160 --> 51:33.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: What is it called?
[51:33.920 --> 51:36.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, Comp, uh, the Risks Digest?
[51:36.320 --> 51:36.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[51:36.880 --> 51:37.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, just search for it.
[51:38.060 --> 51:39.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't remember the page offhand.
[51:39.840 --> 51:40.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's kind of obscure.
[51:40.680 --> 51:41.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Risks Digest?
[51:41.420 --> 51:41.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[51:41.840 --> 51:42.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[51:42.080 --> 51:48.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then there's a, uh, a, uh, brother publication, or a sister publication, depending on which you want to apply, uh, for computers.
[51:48.900 --> 51:50.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's numerous privacy newsletters.
[51:50.540 --> 51:51.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there's tons.
[51:51.160 --> 51:55.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: In fact, you can find them in bookstores, or you can just go into, uh, your local news reader and search for the word privacy.
[51:55.880 --> 51:57.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sure you'll find all kinds of things.
[51:57.520 --> 51:57.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[51:58.340 --> 51:58.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Great.
[51:58.940 --> 51:59.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[51:59.160 --> 51:59.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for your call.
[51:59.560 --> 51:59.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[52:00.640 --> 52:01.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's take another phone call.
[52:02.260 --> 52:03.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: 212-209-2900.
[52:03.520 --> 52:03.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[52:03.940 --> 52:04.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[52:06.740 --> 52:07.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello.
[52:07.480 --> 52:08.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, you're on the air.
[52:08.700 --> 52:09.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey there, Isaac.
[52:09.840 --> 52:10.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's Tommy Pickles.
[52:10.980 --> 52:11.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: How are you doing, sir?
[52:11.780 --> 52:12.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, Tommy.
[52:12.440 --> 52:13.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Make it back okay.
[52:13.260 --> 52:14.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I made it okay.
[52:14.540 --> 52:23.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had to take a red eye about 11 o'clock at night and got to New York at six something this morning and got home and crashed out for all night.
[52:23.440 --> 52:23.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[52:23.920 --> 52:24.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: All day today.
[52:24.800 --> 52:26.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm wide awake for the show today.
[52:26.760 --> 52:32.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I want to say props to everyone for the work that was done on the clip that was shown during the Hacker Jeopardy episode.
[52:33.200 --> 52:34.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: That worked out really well.
[52:35.280 --> 52:39.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And to reiterate, yeah, the crowd did go wild when that clip was shown at DEFCON.
[52:41.420 --> 52:44.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hopefully they'll go even wilder when the film itself comes out.
[52:44.340 --> 52:48.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the funniest part was the first beginning of it, the green preview, you know.
[52:49.320 --> 52:50.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't give it away.
[52:50.440 --> 52:52.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, actually, I guess you have to give it away because I don't know if we're going to give it away.
[52:52.720 --> 52:54.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry, we won't tell any secrets.
[52:54.380 --> 53:00.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: One question referring to that, also say hi to Porkchop out there since I know he's not on the phone right now.
[53:02.200 --> 53:06.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: We were discussing actually encoding that and actually maybe putting it on the net.
[53:06.720 --> 53:12.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we might do that if we find a site that has enough bandwidth to allow that to stream properly.
[53:12.500 --> 53:12.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[53:12.920 --> 53:13.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[53:14.260 --> 53:17.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: That was one of the only things I wanted to reiterate.
[53:17.300 --> 53:19.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it was a great conference, some of the things.
[53:20.060 --> 53:35.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: One of the things a lot of people didn't know, and if they haven't checked actually the BO2K website, was they did announce at the conference that many of the dupes of the BO2K CD were infected with the CIH virus.
[53:35.940 --> 53:39.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, in fact, I even ran into somebody that had that happen.
[53:39.260 --> 53:42.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think I ran into the person that had that happen to them first.
[53:42.960 --> 53:48.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they really thought that the CDC people were handing out CDs that had viruses on them.
[53:48.560 --> 53:53.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it was pretty funny because one of the CDs was signed by people of the CDC.
[53:53.980 --> 53:56.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I talked to a couple of them about that.
[53:56.820 --> 54:01.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they said, yeah, this guy came up to the stage and handed us a CD and we signed it.
[54:01.100 --> 54:06.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I remember thinking as I was signing it that it didn't quite look like the same CD we were throwing out.
[54:06.560 --> 54:14.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Someone had, in a matter of moments, copied the CD and passed it back out and had them sign it.
[54:14.460 --> 54:18.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: And all of a sudden that became an original CD because it had their signatures on it.
[54:18.500 --> 54:19.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: And of course that one was infected.
[54:20.080 --> 54:20.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[54:20.600 --> 54:27.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the BO2K release was really incredible compared to anything.
[54:27.960 --> 54:32.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it was, there were so many people in there that it was packed.
[54:32.220 --> 54:33.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people couldn't even get in there.
[54:34.280 --> 54:34.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[54:34.500 --> 54:41.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: I actually walked out because somebody just let out a stink and I had to go because there was no ventilation in there.
[54:41.660 --> 54:41.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[54:42.400 --> 54:43.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's too bad about the air conditioning.
[54:43.720 --> 54:45.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: We didn't have this problem at GHI Con.
[54:45.780 --> 54:46.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[54:46.600 --> 54:47.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: As I hear.
[54:48.200 --> 54:51.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's too bad I couldn't get my passes early enough for GHI Con.
[54:51.860 --> 54:59.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, Tommy, let's start thinking about things to do in New York to top this because we've got a big conference going up next summer, June or July.
[54:59.280 --> 54:59.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[54:59.660 --> 55:00.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hopefully...
[55:00.000 --> 55:01.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have to find a good place.
[55:01.180 --> 55:02.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have to find a lot of space.
[55:02.320 --> 55:05.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know HOPE2K is going to be a lot bigger than Beyond HOPE.
[55:06.080 --> 55:06.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that would be nice.
[55:06.700 --> 55:10.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because people, I mean, it just keeps on getting bigger and bigger every year.
[55:10.520 --> 55:13.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: People are hearing what's going on with technology and want to get involved with it.
[55:14.120 --> 55:14.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: So...
[55:14.360 --> 55:15.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not so much the size of it though.
[55:15.900 --> 55:19.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's really what you convey in the period of time.
[55:19.980 --> 55:20.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, exactly.
[55:20.700 --> 55:26.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: They have something that's open to people, both hackers and non-hackers, where they hear our perspective and they learn something.
[55:27.480 --> 55:29.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: And information is pretty much shared throughout.
[55:29.880 --> 55:32.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you guys got like two more minutes for a call, so I'm going to let you go.
[55:32.800 --> 55:32.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[55:33.780 --> 55:34.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll talk to you soon.
[55:34.960 --> 55:35.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Peace.
[55:37.560 --> 55:38.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[55:38.180 --> 55:38.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[55:39.580 --> 55:39.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hello?
[55:40.320 --> 55:40.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[55:40.900 --> 55:41.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Turn on your radio.
[55:41.500 --> 55:42.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're going to want to turn your radio down.
[55:42.700 --> 55:42.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, please.
[55:43.520 --> 55:44.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's kind of cool.
[55:44.080 --> 55:44.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hello, yes.
[55:44.940 --> 55:48.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just bought a computer, a 450 Pentium 3.
[55:48.860 --> 55:49.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[55:50.120 --> 55:53.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I would like to know if there's a Linux on it.
[55:56.340 --> 55:56.740]  Uh...
[55:56.740 --> 55:58.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, what happens when you turn it on?
[55:58.940 --> 56:00.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, I just got it and I'm a newbie, right?
[56:01.000 --> 56:02.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, you want to put Linux on it.
[56:02.920 --> 56:03.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[56:03.900 --> 56:05.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: You said Linux, not Linux.
[56:05.620 --> 56:06.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what you're talking about.
[56:06.740 --> 56:08.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you know, I'm sorry.
[56:08.400 --> 56:09.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: Who wants to put Linux on his machine?
[56:09.800 --> 56:14.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I guess you have to find a distribution of Linux and put that on there.
[56:14.440 --> 56:20.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: However, if you're looking for Linux, a lot of people seem to like Red Hat or...
[56:20.680 --> 56:23.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: I can't even tell you the names of the Linux distributions because I don't use it.
[56:23.680 --> 56:27.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: I use BSD, which is superior, but we don't want to go into this holy war.
[56:27.300 --> 56:29.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't push your BSD propaganda.
[56:29.360 --> 56:29.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[56:30.120 --> 56:32.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Again, there's no reason to get into it.
[56:32.300 --> 56:35.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: The pronunciations are perfectly acceptable, so we're not chastising you for saying Linux.
[56:35.780 --> 56:36.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, okay.
[56:36.400 --> 56:37.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Some people didn't say Linux.
[56:37.640 --> 56:38.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know why.
[56:38.420 --> 56:42.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, visit a website like, uh, Debian.com.
[56:42.400 --> 56:45.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Debian's another distribution on Linux that seems to be pretty popular.
[56:45.140 --> 56:46.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Red Hat.com.
[56:46.720 --> 56:51.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, Walnut Creek actually has their own distribution, uh, site.
[56:51.480 --> 56:55.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, you can take a look at what's going on and, uh, grab yourself a CD.
[56:55.980 --> 56:57.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're cheap, if not free.
[56:58.660 --> 56:59.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right, thanks.
[56:59.540 --> 57:00.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: No problem.
[57:00.660 --> 57:00.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right, bye.
[57:01.040 --> 57:01.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's take another phone call.
[57:02.000 --> 57:02.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have time, I assume, right?
[57:02.900 --> 57:03.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, 20 seconds.
[57:04.140 --> 57:05.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have only 20 seconds?
[57:05.220 --> 57:07.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's 57, 45, 46.
[57:07.040 --> 57:08.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think a quick phone call.
[57:08.180 --> 57:08.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's leave the last one.
[57:08.940 --> 57:09.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Quick phone call.
[57:09.560 --> 57:10.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Ready, here we go.
[57:10.160 --> 57:10.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[57:10.500 --> 57:10.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air.
[57:11.380 --> 57:12.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[57:12.280 --> 57:12.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: See?
[57:12.580 --> 57:13.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's the voice.
[57:13.080 --> 57:14.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the quickest phone call we're ever going to have.
[57:14.980 --> 57:15.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, Claude.
[57:16.020 --> 57:17.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just want to mention...
[57:17.000 --> 57:17.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now we're finished.
[57:17.620 --> 57:19.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a really quick phone call, Claude.
[57:19.560 --> 57:21.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Move your finger over the button and press.
[57:21.260 --> 57:24.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, and when I go to, you know, the next...
[57:24.940 --> 57:25.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, not next time.
[57:25.580 --> 57:26.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're not doing it.
[57:26.880 --> 57:28.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: When PCF charges me, hello?
[57:28.960 --> 57:29.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: It does.
[57:29.880 --> 57:30.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: There we go.
[57:30.560 --> 57:32.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the fastest smoke call we've ever had on the show.
[57:32.780 --> 57:34.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: I had the feeling it's been important to say this time.
[57:35.040 --> 57:35.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: When I...
[57:35.460 --> 57:35.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello?
[57:36.000 --> 57:36.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: He's still there.
[57:36.900 --> 57:37.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[57:37.800 --> 57:38.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Goodbye, Rebel.
[57:38.640 --> 57:41.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: At any rate, we're actually out of time and we've got to wrap this up.
[57:41.120 --> 57:41.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you ever get rid of Rebel, he's still there.
[57:41.980 --> 57:42.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't want to know.
[57:43.760 --> 57:45.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'll have nightmares for weeks.
[57:45.620 --> 57:46.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's all right.
[57:46.600 --> 57:50.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I'll be back next week, back in New York, and I assume you will be too.
[57:50.340 --> 57:50.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, yes.
[57:51.260 --> 57:52.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'll play Porn Shop will be as well.
[57:53.000 --> 57:53.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Excellent.
[57:54.020 --> 57:54.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[57:54.640 --> 57:56.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, then, we'll see you then.
[57:56.680 --> 57:57.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right-o.
[57:57.360 --> 57:58.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Have a good night, folks.
[58:53.310 --> 58:53.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
[58:54.150 --> 58:54.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Woody Allen.
[58:55.170 --> 58:59.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're listening to WBAI, a listener-sponsored community radio in New York City.
[59:00.390 --> 59:01.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: WBAI needs your support.
[59:01.950 --> 59:03.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Please be generous.
[59:03.550 --> 59:03.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[59:15.210 --> 59:18.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is WBAI 99.5 FM.
[59:19.170 --> 59:20.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Stay tuned for Tahrir.
[59:20.790 --> 59:20.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: See you next time.
[59:21.030 --> 59:21.230]  Goodbye, TJ.
[59:21.230 --> 59:21.330]  I wish we had an audio from on this channel.
[59:21.330 --> 59:21.530]  You may have a shower.
[59:21.530 --> 59:21.690]  Many dificuldade.