And this is WBAI New York. Next up we'll be off the hook with Emanuel Goldstein, not here, but accessible, we hope, by telephone.
You have reached the Kremlin. In order to report the unconstitutional suspension of a legally elected parliament, press 1. In order to report the bloody suppression of resistance to the unconstitutional suspension of a legally elected parliament, press 2.
In order to report the unanimous support of the unconstitutional suspension of a legally elected parliament by the morally bankrupt leadership of the Western democracies, press 3. For all of the above, press 4.
You have selected option 4, all of the above. All of our unprincipled collaborators with Western business interests are busy right now. Please wait until the regime has had time to consolidate its power and try your call again.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall. I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call. It couldn't get much worse. But if they could, they would. Believe me, mom, but the best is paid for first. I hope that's understood, but really, no!
And you're listening to WBAI and Off the Hook. You'll notice that I'm not a manual. This is Isaac in the studio in beautiful New York.
We're actually getting Emanuel on the phone as we speak. He is out in Los Angeles, who was actually present at Kevin Mitnick's sentencing earlier. Is he there? Hmm. He is there. Hello? Emanuel, Emanuel. Minor technical difficulties.
Anyway, he'll be joining us from Los Angeles in the near future. Some interesting things in the world of the hacker recently. Those of you may be aware of DEFCON, the conference out in Las Vegas, which concluded this weekend.
Let's see. I didn't attend, as was discussed on the previous show. I actually had my own conference, GHICON. GHICON being the Grand Hacker Invitational. DEF was taken, so I just took the next three letters. Those of you who tuned in last week knew that I got to know the opposite side of the wall of my apartment quite well.
I'm here now, I think. I heard that ghastly noise that I think all our listeners hear. If you do a radio show, you don't know what we put our listeners through, but this is the kind of screech noise that the phone makes before we put our people on the air. I heard that, and I knew, wow, I'm on the air, because I've been talking for the last ten minutes, but nobody heard me.
Well, here I am. I'm in Los Angeles.
Is it sunny?
Well, it's weird. Whenever you're in Los Angeles, there's always some kind of crisis going on. They have clouds moving in, and there might be thunderstorms, and of course, that triggers all the emergency broadcasting things and cuts into TV programs.
So, when anybody goes to Los Angeles, or just you?
Oh, it just seems that every time I'm here, there's something like a mudslide, a thunderstorm, tornadoes, whatever. They're all happening.
So, keep in mind, folks, if Emanuel is going to Los Angeles, you don't want to be there for your own vacation.
Definitely not. So, hello to you, Isaac.
How are you doing, sir?
And hello to Claude, our studio engineer this week, as we plod through the week's activities and find out what's been going on. Are you talking about the convention you had in your house?
Yes, yes. GHICon.
Sorry, I missed it.
Oh, well, you know, you went to DefCon.
Yeah, I went to DefCon. We had about, I think, just under 3,000 people there. So, I'm not sure how yours compared to that.
I had the one. But the keynote was really great. I mean, I can't even speak about it, because it was so incredible, it was unheard of.
Yeah, we had an attendance of one, and showed a couple of movies, popcorn, you know, really festive kind of atmosphere.
Did the cops call on you?
Not really. We tried to have a spot at the Fed, but it didn't work too well.
Well, I guess the second one will probably be a little bit better.
Yeah, I'm hoping.
Things progress over time.
GHICon, on the other hand, was an interesting convention, where we talked to all kinds of different people.
Feds, hackers, phone freaks, various strange-looking people just were wandering around, some local Vegas types.
And it's really good to get together once a year, at least once a year, and see what kinds of things are going on in the hacker world.
It's amazing how the culture has grown. I mean, there are just so many people now who are a part of things.
And so much history behind it all. So much, I guess, fame is attached to it, too, thanks to the media.
And the media was certainly there in force as well.
Yes, so I've heard.
Yeah. It was interesting. Very interesting. And I'm glad I went, maybe next year.
Well, next year we have H2K in New York.
And it looks like, judging from all the people I talked to, I talked to a ton of people that want to take part in H2K.
H2K, of course, being Hope 2000, the third Hope conference in New York City.
There are so many people who want to take part in that, that we are really going to start organizing now.
We're going to start looking for convention space.
It will either be happening in June or July of 2000, and we should have definite dates pretty soon.
If you're interested in helping out, please send us an email, oth at 2600.com.
You know, I haven't checked my email in almost a week.
I don't miss it. I don't miss it at all.
Well, it'll hit you all at once quite well.
I don't know. I think I could keep going on like this. I could keep not checking my email.
It's just not caring. It's kind of nice to walk around and talk to people face to face for a change.
The other guy I sent email to was without this thing anyway. It doesn't matter.
I don't know. It's just kind of a different feeling to feel cut off, even though there's technology all around.
You don't really want to go to Kinko's and log in from there.
Yeah, I recall.
But we did have the release of BO2K, which is Back Orifice 2K.
A sequel to last year's release by the Cult of the Dead Cow CDC of Back Orifice.
Same amount of hoopla?
Same amount of hoopla and hype?
A lot more hoopla.
A lot more hoopla.
There was a huge article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal about this.
It was headlined, Federal Agents, Recruiters, Crash Hackers, Confab.
Well, I guess they sort of have to talk about it.
They crashed it, huh?
Yeah, they have to talk about things like that. No, they didn't exactly crash it.
I don't know where they get these things.
But there was all kinds of talk in that and on CNN and various other places about the release of that program.
CNN, I'm not sure if it was CNN or if it was, I think it was a CBS radio network, got it completely wrong
by saying that hackers were releasing computer viruses onto the Internet.
And in actuality, what BO2K was was simply, I guess, a strong statement
as to the vulnerability of certain operating systems.
In this particular case, Windows NT.
And basically, the program was demonstrated, shown, given out.
And really, there were so many people in that room, I could not believe.
This is probably the largest panel, I think, in history of a hacker conference.
How many people did you say were in there?
Maybe 2,000 people in the room?
That's a little send-off.
It was probably 2,000 people in one room, which is pretty incredible.
Well, last year, I saw photos of last year's, which was just people, standing room only,
but not even enough standing room left.
Then the air conditioning failed.
Oh, of course.
And you saw people trying to fan themselves.
Some people had to be carried out.
I saw this one guy go out with so much sweat.
It looked like he had been swimming in his shirt.
It was really quite a sight.
And, of course, the whole reaction when they come out,
it's like seeing a rock band perform.
It's like seeing a Queen concert or something.
You have these strobe lights and everybody jumping out on stage,
wearing their crazy attire.
It's a bunch of computer geeks releasing a product, basically.
That's what it is.
We're so insane here that that's how we're reacting.
It's fun, though.
You guys deserve to have a little bit of applause and everything.
It's all about fun.
And speaking of fun, I got to Vegas a day early.
I don't know why.
I just felt I should get there a day early.
Some little voice in my head told me to do that.
And as I was sleeping that first night,
it was Wednesday night I got there,
I heard something very strange.
I kept noticing it as I was drifting in and out of consciousness.
It's something you don't hear very often in Las Vegas.
Do you know what that is?
I'm not exactly sure.
Thunder.
Thunder, as in thunder and lightning.
You mean like the slots, somebody cashing in kind of thunder?
No, not that kind of thunder.
Just the thunder coming from nature, of a thunderstorm.
Like rain?
It was a thunderstorm.
It was a very big thunderstorm.
In fact, when I did wake up, I turned on the TV set,
and they were in emergency mode.
They were talking about the whole city being shut down,
floodwaters, trailer homes being swept away.
They said it was the worst storm in a hundred years.
And I was lucky enough to be there.
And in fact, when I went out,
I found that the hotel we were at was lucky enough to be stranded
in between two lakes,
and there was almost no way to get out.
Of course, there was a way to get out
if you drove in back of strip malls
and over some people's lawns and things like that.
Eventually, I had to do,
because I couldn't stay in that hotel a minute longer.
And it was very weird to see rain in Las Vegas.
It just wasn't like it was before.
It was much wetter.
A lot.
Well, they don't have any real way of dealing with water there.
I think they still have puddles from that rainstorm.
It doesn't drain as easily.
So, it was an unusual event.
And of course, that was right before the conference,
when the conference began.
I guess it was good timing,
because it was the day before.
It had to have been the day of.
Yeah, that could have adversely affected the attendance.
Well, considering that there were outdoor swimming pools
and things like that,
yeah, it definitely would have affected things.
But there were a lot of interesting panels.
A lot of interesting people showed up.
We showed the nine-minute trailer
for the film we're working on,
of which you edited a substantial portion
and Portrop did the rest.
How did that come over?
Well, a couple of times at DEF CON,
we went over to Kevin Mitnick's grandmother's house,
and showed it there.
And she loved it.
Showed it in a few other forums and places,
and I think it turned out pretty well.
I'm not sure exactly what we're going to do
with the trailer from this point on.
We are going to be dubbing some copies
for some people that had requested it,
media people perhaps.
But basically, the film's name is
Freedom Downtown.
Ah, it's been decided.
Yeah.
I'm sorry?
It's been decided upon.
It's been decided, yes.
That is the title of the film.
In fact, that's where it was pretty much debuted
when that nine-minute trailer was played
on Friday night.
And the film should be out in early spring.
Excellent.
And it really looks impressive.
It played very well on the big screen.
I was a little concerned about that,
but I think it'll be a good piece,
a good documentary on the hacker scene.
We need one.
We have a scene in there
where we have a shot of Kevin
actually in prison from the street.
You can see him from the street
waving out.
It's just such an incredible image.
And when everybody saw that,
the place just erupted in applause
because to actually see...
It's just a pair of glasses
and a hand waving
the face of somebody
that we've been focused on for so long.
It just somehow brings it all home.
And makes it mean more somehow.
True enough.
True enough.
So yeah, that's a story with the film
that will be coming out.
We'll be working on that
the next few months.
Yesterday was the Mitnick sentencing hearing,
and I'm sure a lot of people
are interested in hearing what happened there.
I'm actually interested in hearing what happened.
Yeah, well, we drove from Vegas
to Los Angeles
because they were nice enough
to schedule his sentencing hearing
at the Los Angeles Tribune.
So we took the drive.
And in fact, a lot of people did this.
We wound up filling up the courtroom,
which I think is incredible.
And it made a lot of difference.
Kevin came out
after a few minutes delay.
I've got to tell you,
he looks really good.
He looks amazing.
He was dressed very nicely.
He looked happy, confident.
And he saw the supporters there,
and I know that made him feel really good.
And, yeah, it was a very positive scene.
Now, the judge,
Mary Fowlter,
saw her for the first time.
She's exactly as she's been portrayed.
Very feisty,
very, I wouldn't say argumentative,
but dismissive.
She doesn't put up with any nonsense.
And right away,
when Don Randolph,
who is Kevin's lawyer,
started trying to explain things to her,
you could tell that she just
wasn't going to hear any of it.
She was so impatient
and kept cutting him off
and telling him to move on
and not take so much time
to explain certain things.
And it really threw him off guard.
It could throw anybody off guard
to have somebody constantly
sniping at you like that.
The issue that was being raised yesterday
was mostly restitution.
And Don Randolph was trying
to explain to the court
how Kevin Mitnick has no money,
has no means of making money
and doesn't want him to work
in the computer field at all,
which is where his expertise is.
And that simply leaves
a lot of possibilities closed.
And he wanted
the restitution to be based
on minimum wage.
And I believe the figure
of something around $4,500
over three years was raised.
What happened to $80 million?
Well, that's the interesting thing.
Even the government now
has that figure down to $1.5 million.
Oh, that's interesting.
And at one point in time
they even said that
it could be half that.
They said that very, very quickly
and it went by.
I'm not sure how many people
actually caught that,
but I'm sure it'll be
in the court transcript.
The interesting thing was
when the government
was giving their arguments,
they were doing something else
and pick up a different trade
and pay them the money they want.
So they had to say all these
good things about Kevin
in order to convince the judge
that he could make more
than minimum wage.
The judge, I think,
came down as hard on the government
as she did on Don Randolph
and was constantly
berating them
for various issues.
One thing that came up,
one of the documents
that we put on our website
a month or so ago,
as you recall,
Kevin's lawyer was being threatened
with contempt of court
for leaking those documents
even though there is no evidence
that he leaked the documents.
I'm not going to comment
on who leaked the documents,
but the whole thing is pretty silly
if you ask me.
So she seemed pretty upset
that this was even an issue.
There's so many filings,
so many motions,
it's a big waste of time
and you people are all
a bunch of childish...
She just was going off
on how silly the whole thing was.
Silly as far as wasting time
with all this paperwork
and she wanted to get it over with.
And she also wanted to know
from the government
what they intended to do
about Mr. Randolph
if they intended to try
to do that as strongly
as I expected them to.
They kind of just wanted
to say that it was wrong
and that they're not going
to talk about it
in the future publicly.
And this is something
that actually happened
a few days earlier.
There was a ruling
that the future discussion
of restitution,
specific restitution
to the victims,
to the corporations
like Nokia and...
Yeah, to everybody
from the corporations,
the cell phone company
corporations to Netcom
to the well.
But there are no
specific people who are...
No, no individuals
at all.
So that is what the issue
was that they would
hold these hearings
in secret.
They were basically
engineering a cover-up
where this kind of information,
information that we put up
on our website,
which I think was of
interest to everybody
and I think it woke
a lot of people up
as to what this case
is really about.
Information like that
will not be allowed
to be seen.
And that's just,
to hear that
they lost this amount
of money because of Kevin,
it only hurts them
if they're lying.
And that's what I
have to assume is going on here
is that these are
wildly fabricated figures.
But anyway,
in yesterday's hearing,
the figures were more or less
rounded down to about
1.5 million.
The interesting thing is...
In total or per?
I believe...
Well, the way the judge
described it,
it only covers the amount
involving telephone fraud
and investigation
and fixing security holes
and things like that.
Now, as to the rest of it,
I did not hear any mention
as to source code,
as to developmental costs,
things like that.
And I've heard this
from a couple of
different sources
that that's kind of
just not even going to be
dealt with anymore
because the whole thing
was completely...
Bogus?
Sorry?
Bogus?
Bogus is a good word for it,
yeah.
So if that's true,
that's good news.
1.5 million does sound
like a lot of money,
and it is a lot of money.
But if the restitution
is based on Kevin's
ability to pay,
it at least looks like
it won't be a crippling order.
And the judge seemed to...
The judge kept saying
there is no doubt
that there is significant
damage here.
It made me want to
stand up and scream.
But at the same time
while she was saying that,
she was also saying that
obviously this amount
of restitution
is going to be
unreasonably high,
and that it has to be
based on something that
he's able to pay.
Now as far as
the case against Randolph,
they kind of
backed down on that.
They said that since
we're keeping it secret now
that there's no need
to proceed further.
They didn't actually
say that specifically,
but that seemed to be
the impression I got.
The judge really
lit into
the government
as far as
telling them they have
plenty of ways of
preventing this from
happening in the first place.
That it's your job
to be protecting the victims.
At one point she said
something I thought
was really funny.
I sometimes wonder
what is on your mind.
She said that to
Chris Painter,
one of the
chief prosecutors.
It was really funny
because David Schindler,
who is the main
district attorney
in this matter,
kept jumping up
to advise
Painter on a couple
of issues.
They got chastised
for that.
They said that only
one person can be
presenting these
arguments at one time.
He was obviously
trying to
change their
tactics mid-stream.
Right after he did
that at one point,
Painter suddenly brought
up the case of
Kevin Paulson,
who was in the
courtroom,
as an example of
a hacker who then
went on to become
a journalist.
Look, see,
it's possible.
A hacker can learn
a new trade and
become a journalist.
That's what they
caused.
It was laughable,
really.
I asked Paulson about
this later.
He said what they
seem to forget is that
it takes a bit of
skill to become a
journalist in the
first place.
It's not something
you can just
snap your fingers and
do.
It was a kind of
weird scene to
see all this
happening.
It really was
interesting.
I wouldn't say
any of it was
dull.
So where does
this leave Kevin?
Well, the
re are some
issues still to be
resolved as far as
what kind of
retribution they're
talking about.
Retribution, I'm
sorry.
I keep saying that.
I mean to say
restitution, but it
keeps coming out
retribution.
I don't know why
that is.
There's something of
a slip there, yeah.
Now, what the
judge did was,
she said she
wants to see no
more motions, no
more filings.
She's fed up with
the whole thing,
and she told Randolph
that he can file
one more motion
on the
no later than
Thursday.
And that will be
it.
That will be it.
And from that,
she's going to
determine the
amount of
restitution.
Now, she wanted
to meet again a
week from
yesterday, to
I believe the
19th of July, to
determine the
sentencing.
She said he
will be
sentenced.
This is not
going to be
delayed any
longer.
He will be
sentenced.
Of course, that's
when Don
Randolph was on
vacation, so he
had to kind of
beg to be given
another extension.
And they
extended it to
the following
Monday, July 26th.
So what that
means is, without
any doubt, no
question about it,
nothing can stop
it, July 26th,
Kevin Mitnick
will finally be
sentenced.
At that time, it
will be decided
what the amount
of restitution
will be, and
it will be decided
if he is to be
released immediately
into a halfway
house, and
that's that.
Okay.
So he's
presently still in
the detention
facility.
Yes, he's back at
the Metropolitan
Detention Center.
But he can
effectively count
the number of
days he has
until sentencing
on his fingers and
toes.
Yes, but that
doesn't necessarily
mean things will
be over, because
even if the judge
says he should be
released immediately
to a halfway
house, it's the
Bureau of Prisons
that has to
actually make that
happen.
They have to
keep the pressure
on for months,
even, if they
feel like it, so
it's important to
keep the pressure
on.
Remember the case
of Bernie S., where
he was actually
eligible to be
released, and
months went by
and he was still
in prison.
It's more of a
rhetorical how,
like, how can
this one division
or bureau manage
to keep somebody
in jail after the
court says you
can let him go?
Well, you see,
what the court
does is recommend
something, and
then the prison
board decides how
to implement it and
when to implement
it, so if they're
out to get you,
they'll get you
one way or another.
I wouldn't say
they're necessarily
out to get Kevin.
In fact, everyone
seems to be very
interested in
Kevin's case.
I had a long
talk with one of
the security guards,
you know, the guy
that takes your
bags and goes
through it and
takes out all the
bombs and things.
He was very
interested in what
happened in that
courtroom.
He knew about
doing what he did.
I had to explain
the whole thing as
to how there was no
money involved.
It was just curiosity
looking at source
code.
What was his
reaction?
I'm sorry?
What was the
guy's reaction?
He didn't seem
shocked.
He was genuinely
interested in it,
and he was like
everybody else.
When you tell him
that, their attitude
seems to change a bit.
I mean, that's all
he did.
Of course, when the
media reports it
differently, and of
course the media's
been getting it
wrong.
He had other
ideas.
That is where it
stands right now,
July 26th.
That is when the
federal case will
be decided,
completed,
finished.
Now, the
prospect, and this
is also very
similar to what
happened to
Bernie, the
prospect of a
state case against
Kevin Mitnick has
been raised.
In fact, there was
a hearing about
that a few days
ago where they
basically set bail
at a million
dollars for the
state case.
The state case
involves something
having to do with
trying to get
information out of
the Department of
Motor Vehicles.
I believe that is
the single only
charge that they
are dealing with
here.
If they tried to
throw anything else
in there, it would
be double jeopardy
and he walks.
Right.
Well, of course,
the way things work
in the computer
world, they can
throw the same
thing in there and
call it something
else.
They can take
wire fraud and
call it computer
fraud.
I'm pretty sure it
also has to do with
getting information
on Agent Steel,
Justin Peterson,
the hacker turned
federal informant
who was going
around entrapping
people and also
ripping off the
federal government
at the same time.
I don't have my
facts wrong, but
Kevin is accused of
trying to find out
information about
this guy by
requesting his
DMV records.
And for that,
they are holding
bail at a million
dollars.
And the real
scary part of
this is that
when Kevin
does get
released from
federal prison,
he could
immediately be
taken into
custody by the
state then and
put into a much
worse place than
the Metropolitan
Detention Center,
something like a
county jail.
And that's what
we're trying to
avoid.
So this case is
by no means
over even when
the sentencing
happens.
The nightmare
just keeps going
on.
But he appeared
to be in good
spirits at the
time.
And I
don't know if
you saw
that.
I saw
it on
the news
at first.
I expected
to see someone
who had been
broken,
someone who
had been
victimized for
over four years.
I saw
someone, you
know,
bright-eyed,
confident,
looking really
sharp.
I was just
wondering who
was this
businessman
walking in in
a suit
with a
gun in
his hand.
And
I was
wondering
who
was this
businessman
walking in
in a suit
with a
gun in
his hand.
And
I was
wondering
who
was this
businessman
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in a
suit with
a gun
in his
hand.
And
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wondering
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businessman
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a
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his
hand.
And
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wondering
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suit with
a
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his
hand.
And
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wondering
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And
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wondering
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wondering
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wondering
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wondering
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wondering
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wondering
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suit with
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wondering
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a
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wondering
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a
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suit with
a
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