Off The Hook - 1999-12-07

[00:01.440 --> 00:11.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: ...at 112 Jefferson Avenue in Port Jefferson, New York, and the zip code is 11777.
[00:20.360 --> 00:28.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: The New York City Chiapas Coalition will be hosting the annual Cultural Festival of Resistance, Saturday, December 11th at Charis Community Center.
[00:28.460 --> 00:41.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Festival of Resistance will be a day of celebration and learning of resistance struggles from here in New York City to Seattle to around the world with speakers, films, poetry, theatre, music, a photo exhibit, and the annual Piñata Ritual.
[00:41.760 --> 00:47.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Special guests are WBAI's Amy Goodman and Doug Henwood, who will lead the post-World Trade Organization teach-in.
[00:48.120 --> 00:50.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, video screenings of Women Forward and Zapatista.
[00:50.860 --> 01:00.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, from 9pm to midnight, the festival will transform into a dance party with the live African-Latin-Funk punk band Antibales and disc jockey DJ Chrome.
[01:00.420 --> 01:10.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Cultural Festival of Resistance, Saturday, December 11th from midday to midnight at Charis Community Center, 605 East 9th Street between Avenues B and C.
[01:11.140 --> 01:14.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: For more information, you can call 212-561-0302.
[01:15.540 --> 01:19.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's 212-561-0302.
[01:24.760 --> 01:27.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[01:27.760 --> 01:29.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's 8 o'clock time for Off the Hook.
[01:34.940 --> 01:39.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:40.360 --> 01:45.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[01:50.500 --> 01:53.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
[01:53.700 --> 01:55.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: I hope that's understood.
[01:56.000 --> 01:56.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bum-diddly-bum!
[02:48.850 --> 02:50.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: And a good evening to everybody.
[02:50.130 --> 02:50.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: The program is off the hook.
[02:50.970 --> 03:00.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for the next hour, talking about the latest in high technology, computer hackers, the battle for freedom, the battle against freedom, and all kinds of other things that are going on.
[03:00.630 --> 03:06.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: What an incredible show we had last week with live action from the Streets of Seattle, World Trade Organization.
[03:07.170 --> 03:20.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're going to have an update on that, as well as just, I guess, a pause to realize how incredible the whole thing was, and how high technology made such a difference.
[03:20.730 --> 03:23.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: We'll be getting into that in just a few minutes.
[03:23.050 --> 03:28.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: And we also have a special guest who has a tale of woe from another part of the planet.
[03:28.090 --> 03:31.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: We'll be getting into that in just a little bit as well.
[03:32.810 --> 03:38.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, we have this that was actually going on.
[03:41.930 --> 03:50.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is one of the things that was being talked about at the World Trade Organization, or was supposed to have been talked about, some of the secret meetings.
[03:51.010 --> 03:58.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: Legislation and enforcement mechanisms to combat piracy of software, music, film, and other intellectual property products.
[03:58.290 --> 04:03.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: In other words, mandatory global government policies to imprison anyone copying anything for their own use.
[04:05.050 --> 04:05.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: You listening, Isaac?
[04:06.170 --> 04:06.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm listening.
[04:06.730 --> 04:06.910]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good.
[04:07.010 --> 04:07.210]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right.
[04:07.210 --> 04:07.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: I hope you are.
[04:07.930 --> 04:08.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because this applies to you.
[04:08.850 --> 04:09.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's got your name on it.
[04:09.570 --> 04:10.930]  [SPEAKER_17]: I have my reservations, though.
[04:11.430 --> 04:13.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I don't know where you're going to be going, because you can't get away from this.
[04:14.270 --> 04:15.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: You'll have to go off-world.
[04:16.570 --> 04:16.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: All right.
[04:17.630 --> 04:18.310]  It's a good suggestion.
[04:19.730 --> 04:20.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: You're right.
[04:20.390 --> 04:20.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[04:21.730 --> 04:23.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: In fact, the petition I have outside...
[04:24.630 --> 04:25.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: We'll get to that later.
[04:27.010 --> 04:27.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: U.S.
[04:27.630 --> 04:29.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: urged to stand firm on intellectual property.
[04:31.670 --> 04:37.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: Representative Jay Inslee, Democrat of Washington, today delivered a letter signed by 12 members of Congress to the U.S.
[04:37.330 --> 04:47.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: trade delegation, urging negotiators to stand firm against any attempts by other nations to attenuate or undercut the TRIPS trade-related aspects of intellectual property agreement.
[04:48.210 --> 04:57.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: TRIPS requires every nation in the World Trade Organization to establish legislation and enforcement mechanisms to combat piracy of software, music, film, and other intellectual property products.
[04:57.450 --> 05:05.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: With the January 2000 deadline to comply with TRIPS looming, many so-called least-developed nations have sought to extend that deadline.
[05:06.110 --> 05:13.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's just amazing, though, that such enforcement can take place over any kind of local laws, any kind of national laws.
[05:13.490 --> 05:18.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's really a frightening thing, and that's kind of what the whole theme of last week was.
[05:19.310 --> 05:20.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: NSA is being sued yet again.
[05:20.870 --> 05:29.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: The Electronic Privacy Information Center said it has filed a lawsuit in federal court requesting the NSA release documents that address the legality of its intelligence efforts.
[05:30.310 --> 05:36.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: EPIC, a privacy advocacy group, is seeking information specifically related to the agency's so-called Echelon Project.
[05:36.710 --> 05:46.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: The NSA has never acknowledged the existence of Echelon, allegedly a super-secret spy network that supposedly can capture and analyze phone calls, faxes, and emails.
[05:47.650 --> 05:48.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: Maybe thoughts, too.
[05:49.090 --> 05:49.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: Who knows?
[05:50.290 --> 05:51.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: Here's a little bit of revisionist history.
[05:52.010 --> 06:03.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: Japanese digital video disc manufacturers were forced to postpone the launch of long-awaited new audio equipment after a European hacker broke open the copyright protection of DVDs and raised new piracy fears.
[06:04.030 --> 06:05.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: Don't you just love how they twist things around?
[06:05.650 --> 06:11.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: Hackers figured out that the encryption was no good, and now all of a sudden hackers are standing in the way of technology.
[06:12.390 --> 06:12.850]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, they're not.
[06:12.970 --> 06:18.710]  [SPEAKER_17]: It just makes smart business sense not to release a product based on a standard that may change within the next month.
[06:18.850 --> 06:21.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, that's certainly true, but you can't blame the hackers.
[06:21.730 --> 06:22.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's what they're doing here.
[06:22.930 --> 06:28.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: They're saying that hackers have prevented it from going forward, and it's their own ineptitude that has prevented it from going forward.
[06:28.230 --> 06:31.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: If they had listened in the first place, this never would have happened.
[06:33.890 --> 06:47.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Matsushita Electric Industrial Company postponed the launch of DVD, audio, video players by about six months to next May or June, while Victor Company of Japan plans to withhold the release of its new equipment for an unspecified period.
[06:48.450 --> 07:00.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: The FBI and the Pentagon are planning a special vigil as 1999 comes to a close, fearing both government and private sector computers could come under attack as the calendar changes to 2000.
[07:01.030 --> 07:02.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, here's the good part.
[07:02.530 --> 07:11.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: Terrorists, hostile nations, criminals, and recreational hackers could all launch assaults at the same time and could use Y2K malfunctions to hide their actions.
[07:11.690 --> 07:13.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: What is a recreational hacker?
[07:13.810 --> 07:15.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: I have to wonder about that one.
[07:16.190 --> 07:19.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: As opposed to us hackers that do it for business, you know.
[07:19.350 --> 07:20.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's the ones that do it for sport.
[07:21.770 --> 07:22.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[07:22.550 --> 07:25.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: Cyber attacks likely at year's end, experts say.
[07:25.490 --> 07:37.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: Federal officials increasingly say the greatest Y2K threat will come not from data errors, or date errors rather, in software, but from terrorists, particularly cyber terrorists, launching hacker attacks via the Internet.
[07:37.750 --> 07:40.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: Did you know that cyber terrorists can launch hacker attacks?
[07:41.410 --> 07:42.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: Didn't realize that.
[07:42.390 --> 07:43.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: So they throw hackers at machines?
[07:43.670 --> 07:46.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: They throw hackers at machines, apparently, or something along those lines.
[07:47.590 --> 07:51.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is according to Stephen Northcutt, Chief of Information Warfare.
[07:51.690 --> 07:53.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: Great name for somebody in charge of warfare.
[07:54.890 --> 07:55.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: Northcutt.
[07:55.550 --> 07:55.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[07:56.050 --> 07:58.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: In charge of the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization.
[07:59.030 --> 08:01.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: He's the latest expert to warn of this threat.
[08:01.350 --> 08:05.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: All the other experts have been put away for insanity.
[08:06.110 --> 08:18.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: He told an audience of federal managers at the Government Technology Leadership Institute in Washington Thursday to expect network intrusions and other cyber attacks during the entire winter holiday period, and especially around the New Year's weekend.
[08:18.590 --> 08:19.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's because hackers have no life.
[08:20.030 --> 08:22.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: They're just going to sit around bombarding defense computers.
[08:22.570 --> 08:23.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: Come on.
[08:23.210 --> 08:24.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: That can be done any time.
[08:24.190 --> 08:25.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: You don't need to do it on New Year's.
[08:27.410 --> 08:27.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: Anyway.
[08:28.230 --> 08:38.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: As Defense Department, FBI, and congressional investigators examine the recent hacking of DOD systems by Russian government entities, the more deeply the hackers appear to have burrowed into military computers.
[08:39.490 --> 08:41.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: Despite all...
[08:41.050 --> 08:41.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: This doesn't even make sense.
[08:42.070 --> 08:58.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: Despite all the denials, the recent sophisticated and widespread hacks into Department of Defense computer networks by personnel at the Russian Academy of Sciences lab did in fact manage to penetrate at least a few classified systems, according to knowledgeable sources and inferences made during recent congressional testimony.
[08:58.830 --> 09:01.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: Classified systems should not be on the network.
[09:01.410 --> 09:01.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's right.
[09:02.030 --> 09:02.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's right.
[09:02.610 --> 09:05.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: And if you have a classified system on the network, it deserves to be exposed.
[09:06.370 --> 09:07.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I wouldn't go that far.
[09:07.770 --> 09:08.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I would.
[09:08.630 --> 09:09.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, look, it's...
[09:09.590 --> 09:10.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: Who is it protecting?
[09:10.730 --> 09:11.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's not protecting them.
[09:11.530 --> 09:12.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's protecting us, supposedly.
[09:12.730 --> 09:14.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's classified information for the protection of citizens.
[09:15.270 --> 09:19.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I think we deserve to know if they're being so boneheaded as to leave it wide out in the open.
[09:20.470 --> 09:22.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's just my personal feeling on it.
[09:22.950 --> 09:25.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: And finally, we have a new bill to worry about.
[09:25.250 --> 09:26.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is called the Kill Bill.
[09:26.610 --> 09:27.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: Have you heard about this one?
[09:27.410 --> 09:28.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: The Kill Bill?
[09:28.310 --> 09:29.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's either pronounced Kill or Kyle.
[09:29.670 --> 09:30.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: K-Y-L.
[09:30.370 --> 09:31.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: How would you pronounce it?
[09:31.030 --> 09:31.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: I...
[09:32.490 --> 09:33.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: You got me.
[09:33.330 --> 09:33.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[09:34.310 --> 09:35.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you got me on this whole...
[09:35.970 --> 09:36.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: On this whole bill.
[09:36.790 --> 09:38.150]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's 3,000 in a row, I mean...
[09:38.150 --> 09:38.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[09:38.990 --> 09:40.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, this guy, he's a Republican from Arizona.
[09:40.810 --> 09:41.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: He wants...
[09:42.610 --> 09:48.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: He wants the federal government to be able to shut off anyone's net access as if it were a government privilege.
[09:48.930 --> 09:49.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: Sort of like...
[09:49.830 --> 09:52.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: Sort of like the driving type of thing.
[09:52.230 --> 09:56.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, where you can have your driver's license revoked if you...
[09:56.310 --> 10:00.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you drive drunk or irresponsibly or something like that.
[10:00.790 --> 10:03.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, this particular bill has to do with gambling.
[10:05.090 --> 10:05.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: And...
[10:05.650 --> 10:08.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: Let's see if I can find the actual relevant passage here.
[10:09.390 --> 10:28.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: In order restraining the provider from providing access to an identified subscriber of the system or network of the interactive computer services provider if the court determines that there is probable cause to believe that such subscriber is using that access to violate the gambling prohibition by terminating the specific account of the subscriber.
[10:29.230 --> 10:33.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, according to some things being passed around on the net, this seems to pose at least two significant problems.
[10:33.770 --> 10:47.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: One, a state attorney general could seek to turn off my Internet access not with a successful prosecution, proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but instead with a lesser showing merely of probable cause, and two, will this set the precedent for other politically incorrect activities?
[10:47.910 --> 10:50.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: What happens if Matt Drudge is sued for slander?
[10:50.930 --> 10:52.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
[10:52.370 --> 10:59.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: Will this lead to the government utilizing Internet access as a carrot or a loss of net access as a stick to modify behavior?
[11:01.190 --> 11:06.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's all very scary stuff happening, and the year 2000, no doubt, will bring a whole lot more of it to us.
[11:07.090 --> 11:07.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: Stay tuned.
[11:30.640 --> 11:34.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you're listening to Off the Hook here on WBAI in New York.
[11:35.040 --> 11:42.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: Last week, we really went through quite a lot over the air, and a lot of people were very mystified by what we were broadcasting.
[11:43.140 --> 11:46.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: It wasn't quite in the usual theme of Off the Hook.
[11:47.060 --> 11:54.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: But when all was said and done, the Internet and high technology managed to really play a role like it never has before.
[11:55.180 --> 12:01.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: Last week, if you recall, and if you have Internet access, you can listen to the show on our website, www.2600.com.
[12:02.380 --> 12:10.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: We cut live to the streets of Seattle, where Amy Goodman was standing in the middle of it all, where tear gas was being fired, rubber bullets, the whole works.
[12:11.180 --> 12:15.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: You probably didn't hear very much of it on the mainstream news.
[12:15.240 --> 12:18.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that's very unfortunate, because there was quite a story to be told here.
[12:18.420 --> 12:22.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: I've spoken to a lot of people who were out there, and it's amazing.
[12:22.480 --> 12:36.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: No matter who you speak to, whether they be people who live in the area, whether they be shopkeepers or people who went out there for the specific purpose of demonstrating against the WTO, they all pretty much tell the same story of how there was a small group of people who were vandals,
[12:36.700 --> 12:42.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: and the vast majority, something on the order of 99 and change percent, were there to peacefully protest.
[12:44.080 --> 12:48.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: And for some odd reason, the police didn't go after the people who were vandalizing the stories.
[12:48.920 --> 12:52.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: They went after the people who were simply standing, protesting, arm in arm.
[12:52.920 --> 12:56.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: And some of the things that happened were simply shocking.
[12:56.740 --> 12:58.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: They were unbelievable.
[13:00.280 --> 13:10.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you hear these eyewitness accounts from various people, but you don't hear them in the mass media.
[13:10.480 --> 13:11.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: You have to wonder why.
[13:12.740 --> 13:15.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: Why does General Electric not want to air this kind of thing?
[13:15.540 --> 13:17.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: Why does Disney not want to air this kind of thing?
[13:17.480 --> 13:29.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, all the major corporations that own all the major TV stations, why aren't they airing the news about how people suddenly mass against major corporations?
[13:29.980 --> 13:30.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: Interesting.
[13:33.580 --> 13:35.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: Interesting theories that come about.
[13:35.840 --> 13:42.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: But what was different about this, what was different about Seattle, is that the net was accessible.
[13:43.640 --> 14:05.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: And there was a particular website known as IndyMedia.org, www.IndyMedia.org, spelled I-N-D-Y-M-E-D-I-A, that had, and continues to have to this day, a whole lot, I mean, a lot, well over a hundred independent synopses of what happened, whether it be in writing,
[14:05.480 --> 14:11.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: whether it be through camcorders, whether it be through tape recorders, all kinds, a real hodgepodge of experiences.
[14:11.400 --> 14:15.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that's where you really find out what happened in the streets of Seattle.
[14:15.600 --> 14:28.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: You won't see it on the mass media, but anybody in the world now can just go directly to the net and find out firsthand, many cases, minutes after it happens, just what it was that took place.
[14:28.740 --> 14:29.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, sorry, Isaac.
[14:30.060 --> 14:35.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: The WTO itself was putting out a webcast of their sessions, if I recall correctly.
[14:35.040 --> 14:36.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, what sessions were left, yeah.
[14:37.280 --> 14:38.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: You can't get much more firsthand than that.
[14:39.040 --> 14:45.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, except for the fact that nobody really could get in there, and also that they were kind of closed off as far as discussion and things like that.
[14:46.660 --> 14:49.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I'm talking about what was important, and that's what was happening on the streets.
[14:49.700 --> 14:58.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: That was what people were doing, and that's where cops were really abusing their authority and hurting a lot of people, hurting a hell of a lot of people.
[15:00.160 --> 15:05.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, you didn't see that in the mass media, and it's unfortunate because it happened.
[15:06.020 --> 15:09.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's documentation, there's lots of it, and the ramifications of this will be going on for some time.
[15:10.940 --> 15:18.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, tonight, I'd like to make a little bit of history by bringing some of that to the folks.
[15:18.860 --> 15:22.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: What we have here comes directly, 100% from the Internet.
[15:22.780 --> 15:33.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: This has never been done before, as far as I know, where we simply hooked up a tape recorder to the net and went to a lot of the selections that are floating around out there and recorded them.
[15:34.100 --> 15:37.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: Recorded them from the net to put on the radio, kind of the opposite of what it usually is.
[15:37.600 --> 15:39.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: Usually, you take something from the radio and put it on the net.
[15:39.780 --> 15:51.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, this time, because it wasn't on the radio or on TV or any place else, in the mass media, that is, we simply grabbed it firsthand and recorded it right onto tape recorder so we can put it on the air tonight.
[15:51.840 --> 15:56.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, that's what we're going to play for the next few minutes, and we'll get on to our special guest after that.
[15:57.420 --> 16:12.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: Keep in mind, there are times when, if you're offended by language, you might want to tune away because this was quite an intense experience, and sometimes people just didn't think to shield their language from those who might be offended.
[16:13.040 --> 16:17.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think you'll find this to be a very eye-opening experience, almost like being there.
[16:18.540 --> 16:25.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: Let's take a listen to what happened in Seattle over the course of the few days of the WTO conference last week.
[16:59.940 --> 17:01.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: My name is George Becker.
[17:01.560 --> 17:04.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm the international president of the United Steelworkers of America.
[17:06.320 --> 17:16.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm here representing our labor union, the steelworkers, and we have 750,000 members in the United States and Canada.
[17:17.680 --> 17:27.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: We had a long, peaceful march yesterday in protest of the WTO and the way it's currently being administered.
[17:27.740 --> 17:39.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're insisting that the WTO change some of the very fundamental policies that excludes working people the environment and human rights issues from their charter.
[17:59.260 --> 18:02.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thirteen dollars a pound or at Starbucks.
[18:03.220 --> 18:05.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: That same pound...
[18:05.140 --> 18:09.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, the farmers get about 50 cents or us.
[18:11.960 --> 18:16.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: There are ways for picking an entire pound of coffee and throwing in the whole bit, 50 cents?
[18:27.960 --> 18:35.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: I grew up as a Navy dependent, and I remember seeing the war riots during Vietnam.
[18:35.420 --> 18:41.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is no different, except where they haven't started beating them yet, and they aren't holding bayonets to their throats.
[18:41.300 --> 18:42.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's the only difference.
[18:42.060 --> 18:43.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is an overkill.
[18:44.360 --> 18:50.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: They could have had these guys standing way back around the corner, had regular officers out here.
[18:51.160 --> 18:54.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Then, if they acted up, if they got violent, then these guys could have came in.
[18:54.900 --> 18:56.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: But this looks like stormtroopers.
[18:56.560 --> 18:57.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a good use of...
[18:57.280 --> 19:00.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Almost, um, we dare you to act.
[19:00.600 --> 19:00.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[19:01.200 --> 19:02.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: We dare you to act.
[19:03.280 --> 19:07.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: It could be confrontational.
[19:07.540 --> 19:07.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[19:07.820 --> 19:09.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: The cops need to hide their faces.
[19:10.720 --> 19:11.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: What is that?
[19:11.380 --> 19:16.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is that because they're planning on acting out violently, and they don't want to be filmed or identified?
[19:16.560 --> 19:18.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's no numbers identifying them.
[19:18.700 --> 19:19.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's no numbers.
[19:19.760 --> 19:20.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, no numbers.
[19:21.460 --> 19:22.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: No names out.
[19:23.340 --> 19:24.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: Faces hidden.
[19:24.920 --> 19:25.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Sounds like me.
[19:25.760 --> 19:26.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're ready to jump in.
[19:30.440 --> 19:35.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: What I see here is a peaceful protest of young kids that are concerned about the environment.
[19:35.820 --> 19:46.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I see them being confronted with a strong police force in a very militaristic way, in a way that I don't feel comfortable with.
[19:46.880 --> 19:49.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I don't think the citizens of this country should feel comfortable with it.
[19:51.880 --> 19:53.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: How's everybody feeling?
[19:55.120 --> 19:57.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a little hard for me to talk.
[19:57.200 --> 19:59.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: I got shot in the face by a rubber bullet.
[19:59.940 --> 20:02.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I just want to describe what happened.
[20:03.060 --> 20:08.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: My friend and I here are peacekeepers, as you can see by the bandage tied to our arms.
[20:08.600 --> 20:17.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: And as we were securing the intersection to prevent the delegates from doing their meeting in secrecy, we were chanting non-violence.
[20:17.680 --> 20:19.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: We were sitting down.
[20:19.760 --> 20:21.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: We were keeping the peace.
[20:21.380 --> 20:24.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then the cops started shooting tear gas.
[20:24.700 --> 20:28.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: They shot me in the face with a rubber bullet, and I had a hole completely through my lip.
[20:29.080 --> 20:31.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I finally got it on a visceral level.
[20:32.200 --> 20:33.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: I got it.
[20:33.600 --> 20:35.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: They've got rubber bullets for us in this country.
[20:36.180 --> 20:38.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: They've got tear gas for us in this country.
[20:38.680 --> 20:47.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: But if the WTO succeeds and moves multinational corporations' interests abroad, they've got real bullets and real murder for third world people.
[20:47.520 --> 20:52.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I'm here right now because I just want to remind us we're here for non-violence.
[20:52.460 --> 20:55.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the love in our hearts today has prevented round one.
[20:55.560 --> 20:56.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I want to pass the mic on.
[20:57.040 --> 20:57.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you.
[20:59.060 --> 21:04.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: What happened is these two kids were standing at the street, ready to go across the street at 3rd and Union.
[21:05.220 --> 21:08.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: And all of a sudden these three guys come walking up to them.
[21:08.280 --> 21:09.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: And there was nobody else around.
[21:09.620 --> 21:12.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: And all of a sudden start beating them up, slugging and beating them up.
[21:13.060 --> 21:15.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the kids are already falling to the ground.
[21:15.560 --> 21:17.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of the guys is all bloody.
[21:17.460 --> 21:20.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: She's just in a panic because she doesn't know who these guys are.
[21:20.620 --> 21:23.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the police don't identify himself as cops.
[21:23.440 --> 21:26.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: Then finally, these two real cops that are in real uniforms come up.
[21:26.780 --> 21:29.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: And then the three undercover cops say, we're cops.
[21:29.360 --> 21:30.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: And they handcuff these kids.
[21:30.880 --> 21:32.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: But they've beaten them up, kicked them.
[21:32.780 --> 21:33.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: Then they card them off.
[21:33.880 --> 21:34.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: These kids did nothing.
[21:34.800 --> 21:36.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: They were just standing at the street sign right there.
[21:37.220 --> 21:40.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: And a guy from Metro over on the other side said those two kids were tagged.
[21:41.020 --> 21:43.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: They were at the confrontation earlier, a half hour earlier.
[21:43.980 --> 21:45.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: And they were targeting them.
[21:45.560 --> 21:50.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: Somehow they're targeting these kids by putting some kind of a tag on the back of their outfits.
[21:50.700 --> 21:54.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: And then the police, the undercover cops come up later and beat the shit out of these kids.
[21:55.680 --> 21:58.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: So they're targeting the kids when they're in the safety of all the groups.
[21:59.060 --> 22:01.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: They don't go near them, but they target them.
[22:01.780 --> 22:05.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: And then after they leave their protection, then they tag them and hurt them.
[22:06.040 --> 22:14.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Journalists were having their eyes cleaned out from the pepper spray they had sprayed on them just outside the Independent Media Center on 3rd Avenue in downtown Seattle.
[22:14.920 --> 22:19.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: This announcement was being made in the Media Center to the Journalists and the staff on hand.
[22:19.760 --> 22:21.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, I have an announcement from Joe.
[22:22.160 --> 22:25.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's a row of riot police just outside, blocking the streets.
[22:25.640 --> 22:27.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: You can't go left out the door if you want to.
[22:28.320 --> 22:30.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: They're not communicating with us at all.
[22:30.840 --> 22:33.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: They won't indicate who can control or charge.
[22:34.800 --> 22:40.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: And so basically they're just locking us in here essentially or forcing us.
[22:41.920 --> 22:44.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: But they've drawn the line right outside the IMC here.
[22:46.120 --> 22:48.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Get the word out that the press is being held captive.
[23:12.410 --> 23:19.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is the problem we have when you have a concentration of media owned by fewer and fewer corporations.
[23:19.770 --> 23:22.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, how many radio stations or TV stations are there out there?
[23:22.590 --> 23:37.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if you have one or two of them saying that they're not going to cover an activity because the government agency didn't happen to provide a permit, then you really have a collusion behind, in this case pretty blatantly, you know, corporate power into the government.
[23:42.150 --> 23:42.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, hey!
[23:43.410 --> 23:44.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Ho, ho!
[23:45.370 --> 23:46.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: WTO's gotta go!
[24:00.090 --> 24:00.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ho, ho!
[24:02.010 --> 24:03.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: WTO's gotta go!
[24:03.250 --> 24:03.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, hey, hey!
[24:07.770 --> 24:09.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: My name is Lani Hanson.
[24:09.710 --> 24:13.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm here with my daughter, Lani Ross, and my daughter, Megan Carmody.
[24:14.390 --> 24:20.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we wanted to blockade a road this morning, and we sat down peacefully in the middle of the street, and riot police came.
[24:20.990 --> 24:23.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: There was a lot of chanting, a lot of fun, a lot of dancing.
[24:24.050 --> 24:32.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then, and then the police had had enough of it, and they sprayed us with pepper spray, shot rubber bullets at us.
[24:33.090 --> 24:35.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: We were all hit, and then tear gassed us.
[24:36.010 --> 24:37.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was just amazing.
[24:37.670 --> 24:45.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, there are people running around the streets, breaking windows, and turning over newspaper magazine containers, who aren't being bothered at all.
[24:46.210 --> 24:50.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: The police don't seem to be making any attempt to control them, or arrest them, or get them off the streets.
[24:51.590 --> 24:54.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, the free logging agreement is to eliminate tariffs.
[24:54.890 --> 24:59.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: Those are wood imports, taxes, around the world.
[25:00.650 --> 25:05.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: The US is pushing this, backed by Weyerhaeuser and International Paper and all of our big forestry corporations.
[25:06.150 --> 25:08.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: This is one deal they want to finalize this week.
[25:09.710 --> 25:18.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: The White House did a report on this because we've beaten them over the head about our concerns, and they said it's going to increase logging around the world, particularly in some of the most sensitive forests.
[25:18.750 --> 25:20.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: In Indonesia, 4.4 percent.
[25:21.290 --> 25:23.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: In Malaysia, 2.2 percent.
[25:23.550 --> 25:25.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: And in Chile, by 1 percent.
[25:25.050 --> 25:35.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now our friends in those countries are here, and they're very clear to say that they don't have regulatory systems there, they don't have environmental protections, they have nobody to enforce the laws, and they can't handle any more logging.
[25:35.910 --> 25:39.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: So our friends are here to say that they want to stop this thing too in those countries.
[25:39.590 --> 25:55.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: In addition to that, in the next round, they want to put in, on the table, subject for negotiation to eliminate the ability of government to do these things, raw log export bans, which are important for conserving forests and for jobs, protections at the border for invasive species,
[25:55.570 --> 25:58.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: second leading cause of species extinction now in the world.
[25:59.530 --> 26:03.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: Ecolabeling, third-party ecolabeling, all these things are calling non-tariff measures.
[26:04.530 --> 26:10.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: All these environmental protections we have, they're calling non-tariff measures, and they're things that they want to put under new WTO rules.
[26:10.870 --> 26:11.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right.
[26:11.410 --> 26:12.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: What did we just hear right now?
[26:12.850 --> 26:13.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, we just heard from the U.S.
[26:14.030 --> 26:17.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: Trade Representative's office that they're going full steam ahead with all these things.
[26:17.530 --> 26:18.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: Even though we're out here right now.
[26:18.590 --> 26:22.710]  [SPEAKER_18]: Even though you all are out here, that they want to put these things in the next round.
[26:23.150 --> 26:28.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: And they want to finalize one of the agreements, what we're calling the free logging agreement, the tariff elimination, this week.
[26:28.910 --> 26:29.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: What's your name?
[26:29.790 --> 26:31.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's Victor Minotti.
[26:31.850 --> 26:33.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Victor Minotti was just speaking.
[26:33.690 --> 26:34.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: How did you get in there?
[26:34.830 --> 26:35.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Who are you?
[26:36.070 --> 26:37.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: He has very detailed information.
[26:37.730 --> 26:38.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: Globalization.
[26:39.090 --> 26:43.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: I published this report, how the WTO undermines forest conservation.
[26:45.310 --> 26:46.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I'm a credited NGO.
[26:47.530 --> 26:47.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[26:47.990 --> 26:51.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we've been banging on them for months now.
[26:51.410 --> 26:52.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do you have a card?
[26:53.530 --> 26:54.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: This is my...
[26:54.010 --> 26:54.850]  [SPEAKER_18]: Sony's credentials.
[26:56.410 --> 26:57.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: Just to let...
[26:57.170 --> 27:01.310]  [SPEAKER_18]: This is to keep the information between those of us on the inside and all you out here, okay?
[27:01.430 --> 27:01.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: Awesome.
[27:01.770 --> 27:02.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: So you all know what's going on.
[27:03.590 --> 27:04.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Can you hear your name again?
[27:05.370 --> 27:06.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's Victor Minotti.
[27:10.570 --> 27:14.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, that's why we're running around in the streets right now, just yelling things like this.
[27:15.530 --> 27:20.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: The news cameras are more interested in covering, you know, the chaos, rather than the substance of what's going on inside.
[27:20.950 --> 27:21.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: How about agricultural issues?
[27:21.930 --> 27:22.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, they won't let you get anywhere.
[27:23.170 --> 27:24.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, do you have a website?
[27:24.590 --> 27:25.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: I haven't been following it as closely.
[27:25.950 --> 27:26.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, they have a website.
[27:26.470 --> 27:29.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: From what I know from the people who are following the ag stuff are not doing well, not doing good.
[27:30.170 --> 27:30.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: The U.S.
[27:30.910 --> 27:40.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: wants to propose a working group on biotech, so that it can prevent any government from being able to ban the import of GMOs into their country.
[27:40.850 --> 27:41.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah?
[27:42.130 --> 27:43.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Can you say...
[27:43.690 --> 27:48.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, I haven't heard any news other than that the Third World wants to change the rules on Pat News.
[27:48.950 --> 27:49.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: Whoa!
[27:49.850 --> 27:49.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Whoa!
[27:50.290 --> 27:50.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Whoa!
[27:50.870 --> 27:50.930]  Whoa!
[27:50.930 --> 27:51.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's go!
[27:51.510 --> 27:51.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's go!
[27:52.010 --> 27:52.110]  Let's go!
[27:52.610 --> 27:53.130]  Let's go!
[27:53.390 --> 27:54.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's chaos.
[27:54.470 --> 27:55.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: There are cops running after us everywhere.
[27:57.530 --> 27:58.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're making...
[27:58.470 --> 28:00.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: They just made a huge move.
[28:00.610 --> 28:01.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: They just made a huge move.
[28:01.970 --> 28:03.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: They took in some people.
[28:03.530 --> 28:04.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: They grabbed some folks.
[28:06.170 --> 28:09.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know who they're trying to get exactly, but they got them.
[28:10.830 --> 28:12.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is fucked up.
[28:12.410 --> 28:14.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: It is chaos fucking down here.
[28:14.610 --> 28:16.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: It is total freaking chaos.
[28:16.330 --> 28:17.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: That came out of nowhere.
[28:17.490 --> 28:18.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: All of a sudden.
[28:21.950 --> 28:22.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: All of a sudden.
[28:23.570 --> 28:25.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, this is getting pretty heavy fucking duty.
[28:34.370 --> 28:36.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to go walk down.
[28:39.810 --> 28:40.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[28:41.890 --> 28:42.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Independent media.
[28:44.090 --> 28:49.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: The results of what happened just a little while ago was that they grabbed Victor Makati, the NGO.
[28:50.210 --> 28:51.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: We got the interview on it.
[28:51.690 --> 28:53.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: They just came through with a cop car.
[28:53.850 --> 28:56.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Snatched him, threw him in the cop car, and it was done and over with.
[28:58.430 --> 29:00.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, we're coming up on...
[29:02.490 --> 29:08.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, right now we have about 20 people, arm in arm, linked together, protecting the...
[29:10.550 --> 29:12.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: protecting the merchandise with a broken window.
[29:13.090 --> 29:14.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, tear gas has been destroyed.
[29:14.830 --> 29:15.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: People are running.
[29:33.470 --> 29:36.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: We need to make sure that this does not dissipate.
[29:36.770 --> 29:43.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: We need to make sure that we keep the energy level up and that we're still focused on being here and being together.
[29:43.810 --> 29:51.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because if we let that drop, and if we stop paying attention, and if, you know, we start leaving one by one, they're going to see us gas us again.
[29:51.750 --> 29:53.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're going to do something again.
[29:53.510 --> 29:55.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: They did it earlier this morning.
[29:55.010 --> 29:56.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: They dropped one in my lap.
[29:56.770 --> 30:02.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: And so, once again, what we've got right now is we've got the numbers, and we've got the cameras.
[30:02.430 --> 30:07.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: They don't want to shoot us with the whole world watching, as we've been chanted all day.
[30:08.050 --> 30:10.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: We just need to stay here and stay strong.
[30:10.650 --> 30:12.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: What my man is saying here is right.
[30:12.630 --> 30:13.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: We cannot leave.
[30:14.210 --> 30:19.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Gandhi defeated the largest imperialistic country in the world through non-violent protests.
[30:19.710 --> 30:25.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Gandhi took down the Great Britain government at the height of its power through non-violent protests.
[30:25.550 --> 30:30.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Believe you me, I'm the first one who can resort to violence, but I've chosen not to.
[30:30.690 --> 30:33.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: We cannot quit supporting ourselves.
[30:33.650 --> 30:35.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you guys leave, they will gas us again.
[30:36.170 --> 30:37.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: They will shoot rubber bullets again.
[30:37.970 --> 30:40.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: A little old lady trying to run over here to go shopping.
[30:40.690 --> 30:45.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: The three fucking rounds shot at her because they did not fucking look to see who she was.
[30:45.810 --> 30:47.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: She was just passing through.
[30:47.530 --> 30:52.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Without the people here to support us, with you guys going home, they're going to pull the same thing.
[30:53.290 --> 30:58.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if they're going to shoot without looking at a little old lady, what do you think they'll do to us?
[31:00.130 --> 31:03.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, where we were this morning really looked like a military zone.
[31:03.590 --> 31:08.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: There was armored vehicles, there were cops with automatic weapons, there was tear gas canisters flying.
[31:08.450 --> 31:08.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: Horses.
[31:08.990 --> 31:09.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[31:09.550 --> 31:09.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Horses.
[31:11.350 --> 31:15.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: It looked like, you know, something you see on the news in some other country that's at war.
[31:16.130 --> 31:19.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was very, very obviously military confrontation.
[31:19.250 --> 31:26.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: And when you think about what's going on, what you've got is a military power protecting corporate interests.
[31:26.630 --> 31:29.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: The WTO represents corporate interests, that's totally obvious.
[31:29.890 --> 31:33.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's hundreds of thousands of people in the streets to protest this.
[31:33.710 --> 31:36.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: And there's military power backing up the corporations.
[31:36.310 --> 31:53.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, to me, it was just a very graphic and painful illustration of the way things are structured in our country, where we have military power that protects corporate interests, and the voices of the people, and the opinions of the people, and us putting our bodies on the line is not really what's important.
[31:53.710 --> 31:55.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: What's important is corporations making a profit.
[31:55.850 --> 31:57.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's where the police are going to come out and protect.
[31:57.650 --> 32:02.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, like, I always make this joke when I see these cops protecting corporate interests.
[32:02.570 --> 32:04.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, how do I get my own private army?
[32:04.290 --> 32:07.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's not fair to serve and protect us.
[32:07.230 --> 32:09.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: What a mockery of what police are supposed to be about.
[32:09.730 --> 32:13.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: Those police are protecting a few rich white people from, from what?
[32:13.810 --> 32:15.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: From a bunch of people sitting down.
[32:15.410 --> 32:17.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: We weren't even rushing barricades, nothing.
[32:17.470 --> 32:19.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: We were sitting in the street, and they opened fire on us.
[32:23.290 --> 32:27.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let it be known that the cops have resorted to violence, and we're just standing up for the people of the world.
[32:28.310 --> 32:32.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was shot in the face with a gun, and they sprayed pepper spray on me.
[32:33.110 --> 32:34.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm here for nine minutes, but it's okay.
[33:16.700 --> 33:17.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: Shame, indeed.
[33:18.500 --> 33:29.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's some perspectives of what happened in Seattle over the past week, all coming to you from independent people running around with tape recorders, camcorders, things like that, and all found over the Internet.
[33:30.740 --> 33:32.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: And really, it didn't sound too bad.
[33:32.720 --> 33:38.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: A few years ago, if we had tried to air something like that over the radio, I don't think it would be bearable, it would be less than AM quality.
[33:38.240 --> 33:42.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: But quality has really gone up, and it's one reason why it's so important.
[33:42.820 --> 33:54.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's so important to have a grasp of the technology so that you can go out there, find out what's going on, and if the mass media won't cover it, then you put it up on the website yourself, and you get the word out in your own way, and people will hear it.
[33:56.560 --> 34:03.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: So that's... most of that is available on www.indymedia.com.
[34:04.020 --> 34:06.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they're putting more stuff up every day.
[34:06.240 --> 34:09.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm sure there are other pieces on other websites all around the world.
[34:10.700 --> 34:14.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: And if you have any other things that you'd like to send us, please let us know.
[34:14.360 --> 34:16.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: OTH at 2600.com.
[34:17.280 --> 34:18.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: We'll be back in just a moment.
[34:57.920 --> 34:59.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll be back in just a moment.
[34:59.740 --> 35:01.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: ...incredibly slowly.
[35:04.740 --> 35:09.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sulphur and carbon and hydrogen, sulphide and lime.
[35:12.830 --> 35:17.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Favour corrosion and cover your cities with grime.
[35:21.010 --> 35:26.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Something is killing the land before your eyes.
[35:27.730 --> 35:33.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the sunshine is not too plain.
[35:35.610 --> 35:45.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Could be the insane, inhumane games we play, day by day.
[35:46.410 --> 35:49.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[35:50.210 --> 35:55.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: The program is off the hook, and we're here with you tonight.
[35:55.250 --> 36:02.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're about to hear from a special guest who is a victim of, I guess, another kind of corporatization.
[36:03.910 --> 36:11.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Something of one power exerting itself over something far less powerful.
[36:11.750 --> 36:24.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: You may have heard of a company called eToys, eToys.com, but what you may not have known is that there is another organization, an organization of artists, who has a website called eToys.com.
[36:24.750 --> 36:26.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think you might know where this is going.
[36:27.950 --> 36:32.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, eToys.com has existed since 1994, actually.
[36:32.630 --> 36:37.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: They're a group of European artists who worked on the cutting edge doing performance art at techno events and raves.
[36:38.590 --> 36:41.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they picked the name eToys literally by consensus.
[36:42.090 --> 36:45.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Being from Italy, England, Switzerland, physical collaboration was difficult.
[36:45.930 --> 36:52.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, they got together on an IRC channel and went through a list of random names generated by a Pearl script.
[36:52.650 --> 36:53.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's right.
[36:53.710 --> 36:57.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: When eToys came up, they all knew that was the name they wanted.
[36:58.570 --> 37:01.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: They first used it in October of 1994.
[37:01.810 --> 37:06.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: And in October 1995, they put up their website at eToys.com.
[37:07.890 --> 37:11.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: In 1996, eToys won their first artistic award.
[37:11.590 --> 37:15.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Their work typically blurs the line between real-world and art.
[37:15.290 --> 37:21.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: In this case, they had undertaken to demonstrate how important and yet how fragile the system of search engines was.
[37:21.750 --> 37:29.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: By subverting the meta tags of prominent websites like Playboy, they pulled inexperienced surfers to their site.
[37:29.890 --> 37:34.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: Where they put in a plug for Kevin Mitnick and had a few laughs at the newbie's expense.
[37:34.830 --> 37:37.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: They called it the Digital Hijack.
[37:38.890 --> 37:40.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: A curious kind of art.
[37:41.390 --> 37:47.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: In 1996, it was original enough to win an award from Ars Electronica.
[37:48.090 --> 37:49.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: Nowadays, everyone knows the trick.
[37:49.870 --> 37:51.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: The search engines find it and disregard it.
[37:51.790 --> 37:55.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: And some underhanded websites try to make a fast buck by stealing trademarks.
[37:55.550 --> 37:57.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: But eToys did it first.
[37:57.670 --> 37:58.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: For fun.
[37:58.990 --> 38:01.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: Christmas 1996 came and went.
[38:01.950 --> 38:06.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then in June 1997, eToys.com with an S began operations.
[38:07.590 --> 38:10.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: It wasn't until October that their website went online.
[38:10.190 --> 38:11.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: They filed for a U.S.
[38:12.070 --> 38:12.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: trademark on their domain.
[38:12.870 --> 38:16.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: At which point eToys got a little alarmed and filed for their own trademark on their own domain.
[38:17.510 --> 38:20.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Maybe because they're based in Europe or maybe for some other reason.
[38:20.230 --> 38:23.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: eToys says their application is still pending on some technicalities.
[38:23.950 --> 38:26.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: But it doesn't matter when their trademark is granted.
[38:26.210 --> 38:28.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: Their website went online in October 1995.
[38:28.490 --> 38:30.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: Two full years before eToys.
[38:30.290 --> 38:31.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: And it's date of first use that's important.
[38:32.110 --> 38:32.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: Not the date of filing.
[38:34.170 --> 38:35.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: Christmas 1997 came and went.
[38:36.090 --> 38:37.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: 1998 came and went.
[38:37.210 --> 38:40.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: But now it's 1999, the year of the e-tailer.
[38:40.690 --> 38:46.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: And suddenly, eToys.com with an S has gone public and is worth $6 billion.
[38:47.130 --> 38:54.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: Meanwhile, eToys.com without an S, again putting the spotlight on corporations and society, has raised money by selling shares of itself.
[38:55.890 --> 39:04.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Not quite sure how they did it, but at an artist gathering, a half-serious, half-mocking exhibition slash fundraising, they pulled in something over $10,000.
[39:05.650 --> 39:08.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Which they then donated to their friends in the U.S.
[39:08.310 --> 39:11.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Also working at the boundary of society and corporations, R.T.
[39:11.230 --> 39:12.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Mark, best known for their George W.
[39:12.730 --> 39:13.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: Bush parody site.
[39:14.490 --> 39:18.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: In the year of the e-tailer, what kind of speech scares corporations more than anything?
[39:19.330 --> 39:19.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: Disrespect.
[39:20.150 --> 39:21.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: Artists who don't play by the rules.
[39:21.870 --> 39:24.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: People who don't understand that business is serious business.
[39:25.430 --> 39:30.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: eToys.com with an S wants eToy.com with no S.
[39:30.590 --> 39:31.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: They offered money.
[39:31.850 --> 39:35.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: At one point, they were offering cash and mostly stock that would have been worth almost half a million dollars.
[39:36.250 --> 39:37.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: No sale.
[39:37.870 --> 39:41.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: But that should give us an idea of how much they're willing to spend on lawyers.
[39:42.610 --> 39:57.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: Finally, in September, eToys filed a lawsuit against eToy on the grounds that a potential customer had mistakenly gone to the wrong site and had seen the message that if they wanted to enjoy eToy.com to its fullest extent, they should download the effing Flash plugin.
[39:57.690 --> 40:01.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: They also didn't like the pierced breasts or eToy's sense of humor.
[40:01.810 --> 40:15.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: To be precise, they claim that, quote, the anti-social, obscene, and offensive images associated with defendants' use of the mark eToy, both on the Internet and elsewhere, have tarnished the eToy's mark and the eToy's brand name, unquote.
[40:15.350 --> 40:20.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: Let this be a lesson to anyone whose domain is coveted by a multi-billion dollar company.
[40:20.990 --> 40:22.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: Careful with the F word.
[40:24.010 --> 40:33.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: We have with us on the phone from Zurich, one of the people involved in this whole mess, Zai from eToy.
[40:33.270 --> 40:33.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: Zai, are you there?
[40:34.530 --> 40:35.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I'm there.
[40:35.470 --> 40:35.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hello?
[40:35.950 --> 40:36.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: How are you?
[40:36.490 --> 40:36.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: Can you hear me?
[40:36.870 --> 40:37.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm fine.
[40:37.710 --> 40:38.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can you hear us?
[40:39.030 --> 40:39.790]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, perfect.
[40:40.030 --> 40:43.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: Alright, that's one of those rare occasions where the BI phone system is working properly.
[40:43.090 --> 40:49.530]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was listening to the show before on the real audio broadcast, and it was perfect quality.
[40:49.750 --> 40:50.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: Great.
[40:50.170 --> 40:51.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was really exciting.
[40:51.570 --> 40:53.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: Scary things going on there in America.
[40:53.930 --> 40:56.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: We are even more scared about this country.
[40:56.930 --> 41:05.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, it's a lot of scary things happening everywhere, but it's good that we can keep in touch using different mediums, including real audio, including all kinds of broadcasting.
[41:05.630 --> 41:11.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: So tell us, what has happened since this happened in September when eToy filed the lawsuit?
[41:11.470 --> 41:12.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: What has happened since then?
[41:14.010 --> 41:36.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was a strange mix between offering money and shares from their company, and on the other side, making a lot of pressure with their attorneys, sending lots of documents, lots of documents which made us spend a lot of money on attorneys too.
[41:36.590 --> 41:45.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: So we were forced to enter a battle which is not our battlefield normally.
[41:45.010 --> 41:48.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: So it was really a scary thing to experience.
[41:49.850 --> 41:59.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: But on the other side, we also could use our weapons, and this is a media war or whatever you call that.
[41:59.410 --> 42:09.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we could spread the virus that we are attacked and that we will not sell our domain to this company if they are behaving like they did.
[42:10.110 --> 42:11.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, how are you spreading that message?
[42:12.610 --> 42:16.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: We have lots of different tools to do that.
[42:16.530 --> 42:20.830]  [SPEAKER_00]: Our art concept is really focused on the Internet.
[42:21.170 --> 42:40.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in the year 95, as you perfectly described in this short history you gave us, we started to concentrate on the Internet, and we stopped doing all the rave event and techno things, and we totally concentrated on the Internet.
[42:40.590 --> 42:50.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we started to develop a huge system we can use to inform people and to channel some information to the users.
[42:50.190 --> 42:58.450]  [SPEAKER_00]: The most important thing, of course, is our website on the domain www.etai.com.
[42:59.150 --> 43:13.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: We developed this website during the last years, and it became a really strong and famous brand, so to speak, if we want to use the words of the enemy.
[43:13.150 --> 43:17.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, of course, for us, this is also to use this language.
[43:17.900 --> 43:23.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's also about irony and about using their weapons against themselves.
[43:23.450 --> 43:32.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: So this brand, the eToy site, this portal or whatever you call it, was very important to talk to the people.
[43:32.690 --> 43:35.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we were prepared at the moment.
[43:35.510 --> 43:43.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: We saw that they want to buy or, in the worst case, they want to take or steal our domain name.
[43:44.790 --> 43:49.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: We started to talk to different people on all kinds of different platforms.
[43:49.310 --> 43:51.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: We have partners, like you mentioned.
[43:51.830 --> 43:53.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: Archmark is one of our partners.
[43:53.330 --> 44:02.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we are working with people like Detritus or Helcom or the thing in New York and lots of different organizations.
[44:03.010 --> 44:20.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we started to develop a huge system where we can mirror our servers and our information platforms to keep people informed when the thing gets shut down or something like that.
[44:20.630 --> 44:24.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, you're not able to keep people informed on the eToy.com site, are you?
[44:24.470 --> 44:25.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's been shut down, hasn't it?
[44:25.670 --> 44:26.070]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[44:26.210 --> 44:31.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we were not forced or we were forced to shut the site down by ourselves.
[44:32.010 --> 44:33.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: This was the tragedy.
[44:33.470 --> 44:39.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's probably much harder to do yourself to turn down or to shut down your Apache server.
[44:40.230 --> 44:44.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: And if someone else would do that, it's probably easier.
[44:44.590 --> 44:53.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: So one of us had to type in that had to kill the task and the other person had to hit return button.
[44:54.030 --> 44:56.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is a really bad thing to do.
[44:56.370 --> 44:58.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: No one person wanted to do the whole thing.
[44:58.390 --> 44:58.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: No.
[44:59.110 --> 45:03.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was too tragic to do that.
[45:03.670 --> 45:18.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: But we were advised by our attorneys to do that because the US government or the judge talked about $10,000 fees per day if we keep it up.
[45:18.790 --> 45:20.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: So this is really no choice.
[45:20.970 --> 45:31.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, we could have to keep it up just to fight against the United States and to keep it up.
[45:31.290 --> 45:42.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: As far as we know, the American organization controlling the domain names wouldn't shut us down or didn't...
[45:43.090 --> 45:44.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: Does not... does not...
[45:44.710 --> 45:47.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: I have a very strange echo at the moment on my telephone.
[45:47.970 --> 45:50.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I'm a little bit disturbed, but...
[45:50.350 --> 45:51.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: Let's just ask your line.
[45:51.150 --> 45:51.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: Don't worry about it.
[45:52.030 --> 45:52.170]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[45:53.650 --> 45:54.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um...
[45:54.130 --> 46:00.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, uh, InterNIC, as far as we know, does not, um, shut, um, websites down.
[46:00.630 --> 46:03.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, we could have, um, keep it up.
[46:03.950 --> 46:08.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: But then, uh, the attorney said that we have to definitely turn it off by ourselves.
[46:09.110 --> 46:11.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, now, your site is located in Switzerland, is it?
[46:11.730 --> 46:14.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, we have a whole, uh, server network.
[46:14.150 --> 46:18.450]  [SPEAKER_00]: So the domain etoy.com is split into different servers.
[46:18.450 --> 46:20.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: We have servers, um, in Amsterdam.
[46:20.990 --> 46:23.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: We have a server in, um, Budapest.
[46:23.730 --> 46:25.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we have a server in Zurich.
[46:26.770 --> 46:27.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it...
[46:27.970 --> 46:31.830]  [SPEAKER_00]: From this, from this, um, perspective, it wouldn't be a real problem.
[46:31.950 --> 46:33.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: We could keep it online.
[46:33.430 --> 46:37.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we have also very reliable providers who, um, cover us.
[46:37.850 --> 46:41.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we also had with the digital hijack back in, uh, 96.
[46:42.190 --> 46:45.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: We also had, uh, some problems also with the United States.
[46:46.070 --> 46:54.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: They sent the, um, um, some, uh, CIA agents after us and, uh, did, uh, huge investigations.
[46:54.130 --> 47:04.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they were working together with, um, local police, um, task force for, um, or against terroristic activities in Austria, for instance.
[47:04.770 --> 47:07.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: But after three months, they stopped doing that.
[47:07.830 --> 47:08.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: And...
[47:08.190 --> 47:09.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is this because of etoys?
[47:09.470 --> 47:10.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: Or is this something else?
[47:10.430 --> 47:10.770]  [SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[47:10.870 --> 47:14.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: This was, I mean, etoy wasn't even incorporated by this time.
[47:14.210 --> 47:18.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was because, um, uh, that, uh, that's what we expect.
[47:18.470 --> 47:36.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, it's very difficult to say what exactly happened, but the digital hijack, this project we, um, did, and what, uh, one, um, one of the most important art, um, awards, was just playing around with this whole, um, problem of Internet terrorism.
[47:36.470 --> 47:41.890]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, you, you talked about this thing a little bit, and I think you explained it quite well.
[47:41.890 --> 48:01.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: The digital hijack just showed that you can control the, the, the, the, the place or the, the user traffic that you can, that you can direct people to a place and that you have some, uh, influence, um, without, um, telling the user that, uh, you're doing this.
[48:01.310 --> 48:17.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, what we did, we, um, we, uh, worked with this, with this, um, idea and with the, uh, concept of the, of the search engines, because we did an, an analyze or we analyzed the search engines and the power of the search engines.
[48:17.330 --> 48:24.790]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, basically they point people to the, to the different sites and they decide who's got attention and who's not.
[48:24.910 --> 48:33.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, we were, uh, definitely as artists interested in this kind of things, but we don't, um, see ourselves as, as real hackers.
[48:33.490 --> 48:36.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: We are more kind of media hackers or art hackers.
[48:36.390 --> 48:55.830]  [SPEAKER_00]: We try to cross the border between, um, corporate aesthetics, this irony part in Etoid, and, uh, the whole, um, aspect of Internet, um, uh, terrorism, uh, and on the other side, of course, art and, uh, entertainment you can call.
[48:56.010 --> 49:06.230]  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes we just call it entertainment to, um, make people, um, uh, a lot of people want to keep clear or lines between art and entertainment and business and all these things.
[49:06.390 --> 49:08.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: And our strategy is to blur these lines.
[49:08.350 --> 49:11.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: And so the digital hijack was made up like a, like a film.
[49:11.790 --> 49:15.230]  [SPEAKER_00]: You can not, not on a technical side or a formalistic side.
[49:15.410 --> 49:17.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was more like thought, like a film.
[49:17.530 --> 49:19.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was a whole story with characters.
[49:19.690 --> 49:37.850]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, and the story was basically to inform people about this, this, this process of being hijacked and, and, and the search engines, which, uh, direct them to a place and they believe that they are, um, um, that they are gonna be at a safe place and so on.
[49:38.410 --> 49:44.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, um, it really looked like, um, a scary thing maybe for certain people.
[49:44.450 --> 49:48.790]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you have to be a little bit naive to really being shocked about this project.
[49:48.790 --> 49:52.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: But, well, the thing, the thing I don't understand is you're over there in Europe.
[49:52.630 --> 49:58.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, how much jurisdiction does the United States government have over your domain name?
[49:58.330 --> 50:01.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, as you know, the United States are really powerful.
[50:01.470 --> 50:06.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: They have, uh, a lot of control, um, on, on lots of different levels.
[50:06.410 --> 50:27.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, uh, to come back on the other story, um, at the, at this hijack story, they sent, uh, they just sent people or they are, they, um, managed it that Austrian police officers, um, uh, came after us and made house seekings and talk to all, uh, people around us to just to find out what's going on.
[50:27.690 --> 50:28.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: We were totally shocked.
[50:28.570 --> 50:29.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't expect that.
[50:29.970 --> 50:34.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: We expect maybe that Austrian police is, is, is doing something by themselves.
[50:34.810 --> 50:42.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: But then we found out, we saw some facts, facts, um, sheets, and they proved that the CIA ordered this.
[50:42.210 --> 50:53.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, if, uh, the CIA is knocking on the door at the Austrian police department, they are somehow very proud and feel like little James Bond, um, characters.
[50:53.270 --> 50:54.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then they can do investigations.
[50:54.910 --> 50:56.950]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they were totally, uh, unsuccessful.
[50:56.950 --> 50:58.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: They were working with typewriters.
[50:58.770 --> 51:00.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: They had no computers on their desks.
[51:00.610 --> 51:06.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: We were there once for interrogations and they didn't even have, uh, computers on their desk.
[51:06.330 --> 51:07.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: So it was quite, uh, quite funny.
[51:08.150 --> 51:17.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: But, um, to come back to your question, I mean, the United States has lots of contracts with Europe and lots of powerful tools to force.
[51:17.510 --> 51:22.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the point to, um, to, um, get the money.
[51:22.570 --> 51:27.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: And an American court would, um, would, uh, I don't know the word for that.
[51:27.470 --> 51:36.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if, uh, if, uh, American court asks us for money or forces us to, um, pay fees, then, uh, we definitely have to pay that.
[51:36.770 --> 51:37.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it takes a while.
[51:37.830 --> 51:41.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: It takes maybe two years or something, but we have to pay.
[51:41.030 --> 51:53.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing our attorneys, uh, suggested is that if we want to go back to the United States and one of our past member, members was American or is American still.
[51:53.530 --> 51:57.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, he's also, uh, attacked in this, in this whole case.
[51:58.150 --> 52:02.870]  [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of, I mean, nearly everyone or everyone from us also has lots of friends.
[52:02.870 --> 52:06.050]  [SPEAKER_00]: And some of us, even family in the United States.
[52:06.170 --> 52:11.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: And if we would cross the border, we were, would be, uh, immediately handcuffed.
[52:11.650 --> 52:18.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we even have to go to jail if we don't pay, um, fees in this, this high amount of money.
[52:18.590 --> 52:22.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's really scary and we have to check out what's going on.
[52:22.350 --> 52:24.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: And this is pretty, pretty incredible story.
[52:24.410 --> 52:32.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now you, uh, since your website is, is, I guess, suspended for lack of a better word, how can people check in with you guys?
[52:32.470 --> 52:33.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is there any way?
[52:34.050 --> 52:38.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, the, the whole, the whole, um, thing is very, very, um, complex.
[52:38.710 --> 52:40.230]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the strategy of the other side.
[52:40.290 --> 52:51.670]  [SPEAKER_00]: As you also, uh, mentioned, the E-Toys Corporation hired one of the most, most, um, expensive and most powerful law agencies in America.
[52:51.690 --> 52:54.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's Irel Manila in, uh, California.
[52:54.630 --> 52:59.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they are working with real bad, bad, um, strategy.
[52:59.110 --> 53:03.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: They just try to make us spend, spending as much money as possible.
[53:03.590 --> 53:12.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: So they send, um, documents every week, huge documents, with 100,000 things, um, inside and lots of different details.
[53:12.310 --> 53:22.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: We have to bring in lots of documents from employment and, uh, university documents, documents, passport, ports, and all kind of stuff.
[53:22.750 --> 53:25.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: And, of course, all the log files, everything.
[53:26.350 --> 53:34.070]  [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, it's really hard to, um, to, uh, to, uh, survive this thing just on the financial level.
[53:34.070 --> 53:36.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: But is, is there a website people can go to?
[53:36.710 --> 53:37.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, of course.
[53:37.550 --> 53:39.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: We, um, change to an IP address.
[53:40.130 --> 53:46.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's the most important thing, to say that we don't, uh, switch to another, to another, uh, domain name.
[53:46.810 --> 53:47.830]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what they suggested.
[53:48.390 --> 53:55.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: Also, uh, at the time when they, uh, came along and offered us, uh, first, they offered a ridiculous $30,000.
[53:56.210 --> 54:03.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and they always talked about, uh, uh, uh, temporary or, or another, just, uh, another domain we could use.
[54:03.810 --> 54:10.630]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they always, they always talked about, um, yeah, they handle it like, for us, it's just another website.
[54:10.670 --> 54:14.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, uh, some band has a website somewhere and can also change it.
[54:14.710 --> 54:15.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's the same.
[54:15.850 --> 54:18.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: Imagine you would ask them to change their website.
[54:18.010 --> 54:19.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, that's exactly what I was thinking.
[54:19.550 --> 54:21.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: You have the name first, so why don't they change their name?
[54:21.750 --> 54:27.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: The only, the only, um, difference is that we don't make millions or billions or whatever.
[54:28.310 --> 54:31.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, at the moment, they also don't do, uh, billions.
[54:31.330 --> 54:32.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: They lose millions.
[54:33.250 --> 54:34.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: But, um, so...
[54:34.930 --> 54:37.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, they're certainly spending enough to, uh, to get this.
[54:37.770 --> 54:42.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, Zai, we're, we're starting to run out of time, so if you could just give that, that IP address so people can check in.
[54:42.590 --> 54:43.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's important to, to tell that.
[54:43.590 --> 54:54.910]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the IP address is, um, um, 146.228.204.72.
[54:55.410 --> 54:58.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's just to show that we don't switch to another domain name.
[54:58.730 --> 55:02.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of people suggested to switch to the domain name because it's easier to remember.
[55:02.350 --> 55:06.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: But we want to show people that we don't give up our domain.
[55:06.550 --> 55:11.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: Even if the server is down at the moment, we use this, um, domain to log in.
[55:11.510 --> 55:13.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, of course, there could be a U.S.
[55:13.330 --> 55:18.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: company that comes up with the name 146.228.204.72 next week and sues you for using their name.
[55:18.970 --> 55:19.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[55:19.430 --> 55:21.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: I guess, uh, we all live in a risky society.
[55:21.810 --> 55:22.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: That could be possible, yeah.
[55:22.670 --> 55:24.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: We, we are waiting for this to happen.
[55:24.570 --> 55:31.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: But, um, it's also important we, there is a whole network of other websites and probably, uh, mentioned these domain names.
[55:31.490 --> 55:35.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's, one is, um, eviltoy.com.
[55:36.230 --> 55:40.770]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so it's, it's, uh, like a parody, uh, site to the, both of the names.
[55:41.370 --> 55:45.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's managed by people from, I think, from hell.com.
[55:46.130 --> 55:55.650]  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and you also find, uh, a huge cultural, um, activity, uh, activity thing and, uh, community thing going on under toywar.com.
[55:55.930 --> 56:07.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the site, uh, we, um, uh, we, uh, built with lots of people and with, with the help of, uh, a huge community to strike back with our weapons, the cultural weapons.
[56:07.330 --> 56:24.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we just, we are about to, um, give out the CD with music from very, um, interesting American and European bands and artists like Negativland, Illegal Art, or Evolution Control Committee, or, um, Gunnar Lockwood and Steve Heiss and lots of other,
[56:24.610 --> 56:25.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: uh, people.
[56:26.510 --> 56:49.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we, um, at this point, probably we, uh, if we can, we would ask, uh, if there are people listening who are interested in contributing, uh, lullabies, we are collecting, uh, at the moment nursery songs and children's songs to strike back with subversive tunes and to infiltrate the children's bedrooms.
[56:50.170 --> 56:50.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[56:50.570 --> 56:55.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I can't think of a more, uh, a more worthy goal than, than something subversive like that.
[56:55.670 --> 57:00.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, is there an email address that people can, can, can write you out if they have some, uh, some way of helping you?
[57:01.210 --> 57:01.910]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure.
[57:02.090 --> 57:11.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: We, um, have, um, first of all, um, on toywar.com, you can subscribe and you get regular info, mails about the whole thing.
[57:11.450 --> 57:19.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's probably the best way to contact us at the moment because there you find out a lot about other ways to contact us and to help us.
[57:20.050 --> 57:25.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: You can also, um, find lots of information and detail information on this, on this site.
[57:25.490 --> 57:29.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: And all the links to the, to the articles wrote about this thing.
[57:29.170 --> 57:32.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: We are at the moment totally overloaded with email.
[57:32.530 --> 57:39.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's really, it's really difficult to, um, write, um, uh, stories about our whole thing.
[57:39.310 --> 57:41.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: We do a lot of people are confused what you are doing.
[57:41.710 --> 57:45.070]  [SPEAKER_00]: We, because our art concept is really, is really strange and complex.
[57:45.330 --> 57:51.190]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's sometimes hard to describe, but we are always happy to describe and to talk to people.
[57:51.310 --> 57:54.490]  [SPEAKER_00]: But at the moment we are totally overloaded by, uh, mail.
[57:54.510 --> 58:13.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people, um, send us their, um, support and they, um, talk to us that we shouldn't give up and that we have to keep fighting against this, uh, corporation because we definitely have priority rights and we have to show that because if no one is really standing up against these companies,
[58:13.470 --> 58:15.150]  [SPEAKER_00]: this could happen to a lot of other people.
[58:15.290 --> 58:20.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: And ETOI fortunately has the power and the time at the moment.
[58:20.110 --> 58:27.090]  [SPEAKER_00]: You have to know we turned this whole thing, which would kill us if we were, uh, just normal standard working people.
[58:27.090 --> 58:28.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: Zai, we, we, we, we're out of time now.
[58:28.910 --> 58:31.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: So there are, there are some people who want to join that crowd.
[58:31.110 --> 58:33.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: So if you just give that email address out, then we've got to go.
[58:33.770 --> 58:33.790]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, of course.
[58:33.790 --> 58:49.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's, uh, mail me at ETOI without an S dot com.
[58:49.690 --> 58:49.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[58:50.190 --> 58:52.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that, that'll get through to you at least, at least for now.
[58:52.510 --> 58:59.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: And is there, is there any kind of feedback at ETOIs with an S dot com for people to, to voice their, uh, their opinion there?
[58:59.730 --> 59:05.890]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the best thing would be to, um, direct the, the, the mail to the responsible person there.
[59:05.890 --> 59:08.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I would say that's the CEO, Tobi Lank.
[59:08.910 --> 59:17.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: His email address is Tobi, T-O-B-Y at ETOIs dot com.
[59:17.250 --> 59:17.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: With an S.
[59:17.850 --> 59:21.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure he will be very happy to receive your mail.
[59:21.310 --> 59:23.330]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the best thing you can do at the moment.
[59:23.330 --> 59:29.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: We receive lots of theses every day about this, um, um, I stuff now.
[59:29.830 --> 59:29.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[59:30.450 --> 59:31.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, nice to talk to you.
[59:31.530 --> 59:36.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: Zai, thanks very much for, uh, for, for being so courageous and, uh, express our best wishes to everybody over there.
[59:36.790 --> 59:38.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: We'll be keeping update on, updated on that.
[59:38.710 --> 59:39.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, best of luck to you.
[59:39.830 --> 59:39.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we keep informed.
[59:40.350 --> 59:46.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we are happy to, uh, um, to, uh, um, see a lot of toy soldiers on toywar.com.
[59:47.090 --> 59:47.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, great.
[59:48.310 --> 59:48.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: Take care.
[59:48.930 --> 59:50.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[59:50.490 --> 59:51.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: We'll be back again next week.
[59:51.390 --> 59:55.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're sorry we didn't take any calls this week or last week, so we'll try to make up for it next week.
[59:55.230 --> 59:55.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: Good night.