Off The Hook - 2000-02-01

[00:02.090 --> 00:03.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: You haven't fulfilled your pledge yet?
[00:03.990 --> 00:05.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying not to make any spelling errors.
[00:05.710 --> 00:07.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Are you trying to be the last person to pay?
[00:07.610 --> 00:08.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why, is there a prize for that?
[00:08.650 --> 00:09.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a potato.
[00:09.730 --> 00:11.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: I just want the spelling to be correct.
[00:11.490 --> 00:13.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's WBAI Pacifica.
[00:13.470 --> 00:14.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I know how to spell Pacifica.
[00:14.910 --> 00:16.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you spell WBAI?
[00:17.990 --> 00:18.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: WBAI.
[00:18.470 --> 00:19.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, just like it sounds.
[00:19.370 --> 00:20.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now spell potato.
[00:20.370 --> 00:22.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not writing a check to a potato.
[00:22.190 --> 00:24.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, you're writing a check to WBAI.
[00:24.590 --> 00:28.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Fulfill your pledge to WBAI, spelled WBAI.
[00:28.370 --> 00:30.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: There is no prize for being the last to pay.
[00:30.430 --> 00:31.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: No one will win.
[00:31.290 --> 00:32.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not even a potato.
[00:44.650 --> 00:47.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:48.330 --> 00:49.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's 8 o'clock on Tuesday.
[00:50.010 --> 00:53.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that means it's time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:33.110 --> 02:36.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the studio is not in the shape it was in when I left it.
[02:36.070 --> 02:36.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll say that.
[02:36.850 --> 02:39.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have all kinds of technical blunders going on.
[02:40.330 --> 02:41.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: But stay with us.
[02:41.590 --> 02:42.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back in just a moment.
[02:42.770 --> 02:44.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have all kinds of things to update people on.
[02:44.390 --> 02:45.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is Off the Hook.
[03:54.100 --> 03:55.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, enough of that.
[03:55.340 --> 03:56.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: That was not the song I wanted to play.
[03:56.880 --> 04:01.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I guess I'm lucky that any sound is going out at all the way things are working around here.
[04:02.100 --> 04:06.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's Emmanuel here with you for another exciting action-packed edition of Off the Hook.
[04:06.600 --> 04:07.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Isaac over on the other side of the room.
[04:07.780 --> 04:08.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: How are you doing, sir?
[04:08.560 --> 04:10.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you don't want to know.
[04:10.280 --> 04:11.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: I shouldn't have asked.
[04:11.460 --> 04:13.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: On the phone with us, Bernie S.
[04:13.420 --> 04:16.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: and Mackie, coming from Philadelphia and California, respectively.
[04:16.360 --> 04:16.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Say hello, gentlemen.
[04:17.400 --> 04:17.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[04:18.360 --> 04:18.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[04:20.230 --> 04:23.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think... we haven't been on for the last three weeks.
[04:23.180 --> 04:30.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think if you could have plotted and schemed and planned this out for many years, you could have picked a worse time for us to be off for three weeks.
[04:31.060 --> 04:32.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: But that's what happened.
[04:32.500 --> 04:34.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's the luck of the draw.
[04:34.380 --> 04:39.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we have so much to talk about tonight that we better get right into it.
[04:39.000 --> 04:43.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: First, let's start off with, of course, the big story of Kevin Mitnick being released, finally.
[04:44.540 --> 04:44.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Who's that?
[04:44.920 --> 04:45.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it happened.
[04:45.860 --> 04:46.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: It happened.
[04:46.420 --> 04:48.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Isaac, you can go read the remedial text in the other room.
[04:50.380 --> 04:54.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: After almost five years in prison, Kevin is finally free.
[04:54.600 --> 05:00.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Although, again, the definition of free is kind of open to interpretation because there's so much that he cannot do.
[05:01.520 --> 05:04.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: But a bunch of us went out there to California.
[05:05.220 --> 05:08.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: And actually, everybody here was out there except for you, Bernie.
[05:08.980 --> 05:10.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: You were the only one back on the East Coast.
[05:10.680 --> 05:17.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I couldn't... as a convicted felon, I couldn't associate with Kevin without violating the terms of his supervised release.
[05:17.880 --> 05:19.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't want to put him at any risk.
[05:19.320 --> 05:21.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's just one of the things, one of the conditions.
[05:21.600 --> 05:24.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Kevin cannot talk to anybody who is a convicted felon.
[05:24.640 --> 05:28.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought that was kind of interesting because Kevin Paulson is one of the people.
[05:28.000 --> 05:29.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's a reporter for ZDTV.
[05:30.340 --> 05:35.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he had been in communication a couple of times with Kevin.
[05:35.720 --> 05:37.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: I believe they did an interview a while back.
[05:38.060 --> 05:40.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he was able to communicate with him while he was in prison.
[05:40.700 --> 05:43.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: But as soon as Kevin left prison, he was no longer able to talk to him.
[05:43.800 --> 05:44.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
[05:44.320 --> 05:45.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Prisons are full of felons.
[05:45.460 --> 05:49.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it would kind of be self-defeating to put that restriction on him while he was locked up.
[05:49.760 --> 05:49.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[05:50.200 --> 05:52.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Among the other conditions, Kevin, of course, cannot have a computer.
[05:53.080 --> 05:54.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: He cannot be on the Internet.
[05:54.460 --> 06:00.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: The thing that really is frustrating, though, is the fact that he can't have a cellular phone or talk on a cellular phone.
[06:00.480 --> 06:07.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that came up a couple of times when we were all hanging out out there in California where, you know, he was out.
[06:07.960 --> 06:10.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: We were just kind of hanging out, you know, in a public place.
[06:10.440 --> 06:12.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there was somebody on the phone that we were talking to.
[06:13.210 --> 06:16.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there was one case where somebody needed to get to where we were.
[06:16.460 --> 06:18.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: And none of us were familiar with the area, but Kevin was.
[06:18.820 --> 06:20.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Kevin was the only person who could tell them how to get there.
[06:20.680 --> 06:26.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, of course, you know, one of the people we were with in total innocence just hands him the phone and says, Hey, you tell him.
[06:27.220 --> 06:28.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: You should have seen the look on Kevin's face.
[06:29.460 --> 06:31.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was like he was being shot at.
[06:31.580 --> 06:33.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: He just kind of backed away from the thing.
[06:34.040 --> 06:34.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: Directly to jail.
[06:34.980 --> 06:35.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
[06:35.820 --> 06:37.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the kind of silliness that we're dealing with here.
[06:37.800 --> 06:40.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're dealing with, you know, talking to a cellular phone and that's it.
[06:40.660 --> 06:41.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's a violation.
[06:41.580 --> 06:43.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: So we have to be very, very careful.
[06:44.220 --> 06:54.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, to describe the mood, well, it's really a very bizarre case because we went out there a couple of days earlier, went to Lumpac, Texas, no, Lumpac, California.
[06:55.120 --> 06:56.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a Lumpac, Texas?
[06:56.380 --> 06:56.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like...
[06:56.920 --> 06:57.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: I hope not.
[06:57.640 --> 06:58.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Lubbock, Texas.
[06:58.320 --> 06:58.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm thinking of.
[06:58.900 --> 07:02.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, we might as well have been there, though, because this place is in the middle of nowhere.
[07:02.540 --> 07:03.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: It really is.
[07:03.220 --> 07:04.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Total desolation.
[07:04.620 --> 07:06.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Couldn't ask for a better place to build a prison.
[07:06.880 --> 07:08.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And build prisons they did.
[07:09.020 --> 07:10.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: How many prisons were there?
[07:10.100 --> 07:13.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: There was the prison he was in.
[07:13.220 --> 07:16.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: There was the federal penitentiary, which is the really nasty one.
[07:16.500 --> 07:18.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then there was a camp, which he wasn't in.
[07:18.500 --> 07:20.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's, I think, an Air Force Base right next to that?
[07:20.900 --> 07:22.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, that's Vandenberg Air Force Base.
[07:22.360 --> 07:26.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, they got the whole system right there on one mountain or whatever.
[07:27.040 --> 07:28.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: What's wrong with the Air Force Base?
[07:28.480 --> 07:29.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why are they right next to a prison?
[07:29.900 --> 07:31.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't you ask yourself that?
[07:31.240 --> 07:32.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I would assume that the Air Force Base is there first.
[07:32.380 --> 07:34.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Would you build a school next to a prison?
[07:34.900 --> 07:35.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, but you know...
[07:35.780 --> 07:36.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's pretty common.
[07:40.100 --> 07:44.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think they consider it a consolidation of federal property.
[07:44.480 --> 07:48.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: They can sort of save money and put them all in one location.
[07:48.740 --> 07:52.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Plus, you have people being transferred back and forth from one to the other on an almost daily basis.
[07:53.060 --> 07:55.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's, I guess, convenient.
[07:56.180 --> 08:00.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we went there a day or so early and just kind of scoped out the thing.
[08:00.740 --> 08:07.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I even visited Kevin in prison on his very last day there, and it wasn't that bad a place.
[08:07.760 --> 08:09.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: So you got to use the phone thing and the glass?
[08:09.260 --> 08:11.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not like I'm in Sopranos.
[08:12.360 --> 08:18.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, in real life, you walk in, at least in this kind of a prison, you walk in and you hang out inside a room.
[08:18.260 --> 08:24.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Kind of like when Phiber Optik was in prison where we just, you know, bought him stuff from the vending machines and hung out for a couple hours.
[08:24.440 --> 08:29.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: So on the very last day, I was able to see Kevin in that environment.
[08:30.300 --> 08:33.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it doesn't seem that bad when you just go in, you know, as a visitor.
[08:34.160 --> 08:40.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: But when you realize these people can't leave, they're stuck there, they have to deal with this every single day, it's hell.
[08:40.400 --> 08:41.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: It really is hell.
[08:41.240 --> 08:43.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I was pretty happy to get out.
[08:43.330 --> 08:53.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: I should mention, Emmanuel, that the visiting areas usually are not nearly as bad as what's behind the visiting areas, the areas that visitors don't ever actually get to see.
[08:54.940 --> 09:00.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: For instance, the place in eastern Pennsylvania where I was held, it was built in the 1860s.
[09:00.420 --> 09:07.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: It was a rather modern visiting room, but when you got back into the bowels of the place where I was held, it was a completely different story.
[09:07.220 --> 09:09.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: So you can't just judge a place by what the visiting room looks like.
[09:10.660 --> 09:11.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[09:11.340 --> 09:11.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[09:12.270 --> 09:15.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Although I was kind of intimidated by the whole procedure.
[09:15.860 --> 09:16.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they put you through...
[09:16.940 --> 09:23.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: For some reason, I had to take my belt off, and then they gave it back to me after I walked through the little barricade or whatever.
[09:23.240 --> 09:28.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I could have been concealing something inside my belt or on the belt or whatever, but they gave that to me.
[09:28.760 --> 09:34.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: They stamped my hand with something you could only see under a black light, and they took my driver's license.
[09:34.700 --> 09:38.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they also made me empty my pockets, except for the change I was bringing for the vending machines.
[09:39.500 --> 09:43.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then when I went out, I had to hold my hand up to the light again.
[09:43.860 --> 09:46.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: They had to look at my face through the driver's license.
[09:46.340 --> 09:55.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering, has someone ever actually succeeded in somehow breaking out that way by not having their hands stamped and by the face not exactly matching the driver's?
[09:55.100 --> 09:55.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[09:55.620 --> 09:58.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: It seems really pretty amazing.
[09:58.840 --> 10:02.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they checked it twice within, say, 10 seconds.
[10:02.070 --> 10:08.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: One person looked at it, then another person looked at it, as if I could somehow beam in from behind the walls and be there.
[10:08.120 --> 10:10.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was pretty silly.
[10:10.200 --> 10:11.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, these are the kind of procedures they follow.
[10:12.000 --> 10:15.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you have two people, double-check in case one of them is...
[10:15.180 --> 10:15.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: An idiot?
[10:15.760 --> 10:16.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[10:16.260 --> 10:16.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, yeah.
[10:17.280 --> 10:18.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Plenty of idiots there, I can tell you that.
[10:18.920 --> 10:20.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure Kevin will have more details.
[10:20.880 --> 10:21.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the other thing.
[10:21.520 --> 10:22.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Kevin is going to be on the show next week.
[10:23.120 --> 10:23.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Really?
[10:23.440 --> 10:25.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we'll have Kevin talking to us live.
[10:25.680 --> 10:29.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: This will be the first ever live conversation with Kevin Mitnick.
[10:29.140 --> 10:31.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: You may have seen the thing on 60 Minutes a couple of weeks ago.
[10:32.580 --> 10:34.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: He wasn't very happy with that either.
[10:35.120 --> 10:37.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Although, I've got to tell you, he was pretty bummed out by the whole thing.
[10:37.980 --> 10:41.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think he himself wound up looking pretty good as far as a person.
[10:41.440 --> 10:46.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: He wound up coming off as a fairly pleasant person to be around.
[10:46.100 --> 10:49.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that really is the person that he is in real life.
[10:49.600 --> 10:53.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not someone who's a shady character like you might see on the front page of the New York Times.
[10:53.440 --> 10:57.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just someone who's like anyone else you'd want to hang out with.
[10:57.540 --> 11:01.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: So hopefully we'll get a chance to talk to him one-on-one next week.
[11:02.100 --> 11:03.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right here on Off the Hook.
[11:05.160 --> 11:06.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, what wound up happening...
[11:06.660 --> 11:08.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe, Mackie, you could go into this a little bit more.
[11:08.220 --> 11:13.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: For some reason, we wound up being the ones that were shepherding the media people all over the place up there in Lompoc.
[11:14.000 --> 11:14.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: How did that happen?
[11:14.720 --> 11:16.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that was pretty intense.
[11:16.860 --> 11:23.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I guess we were in closer contact with Kevin and his family than most of the press.
[11:23.080 --> 11:33.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we actually, on our way to actually updating the website at a Kinko's, we ran into an NBC newsman.
[11:33.720 --> 11:39.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: By the way, we'll tell the story as to why we were running to a Kinko's to update the website.
[11:39.480 --> 11:40.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a story.
[11:40.340 --> 11:43.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: In the middle of the night, this was about 1 a.m.
[11:43.880 --> 11:45.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: on the Friday morning.
[11:46.460 --> 11:53.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, yeah, they were a bit lost, and they had just gotten kicked off of federal property while they were trying to set up their radio antennas.
[11:54.820 --> 12:01.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I told them, say, hey, well, we'll coordinate all the media stuff since everyone's going to be getting kicked off of federal property.
[12:01.960 --> 12:08.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we went and we scoped out a place down the road, which was outside, just outside the city limits.
[12:08.740 --> 12:10.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: There was some sort of sign there.
[12:10.360 --> 12:13.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: We figured, okay, there's a nice big shoulder here.
[12:13.440 --> 12:16.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: We can have Kevin read his statement when he gets out.
[12:16.780 --> 12:18.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Does somebody have a train going by?
[12:18.820 --> 12:20.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.
[12:20.660 --> 12:22.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I just thought I heard a train, that's all.
[12:22.800 --> 12:23.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, the train.
[12:24.240 --> 12:25.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's actually pretty far away.
[12:25.580 --> 12:44.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyways, um, so when Kevin got out and we escorted everyone, uh, you pulled the car out and, uh, the whole swarms of media, there were at least three different crews there, uh, sorry, 30 different crews there, all, uh, followed us in a huge caravan down the road to this little,
[12:44.420 --> 12:45.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh, place on the shoulder.
[12:46.980 --> 12:47.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh...
[12:47.820 --> 12:49.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Kevin himself didn't know exactly where we were going.
[12:49.960 --> 12:58.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, Kevin's aunt was driving the car, so we had to tell them, hey, follow us, we know a place where you can, you can read your statement, because that's, that's what Kevin wanted to do, read the statement to the press.
[12:58.640 --> 13:00.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: So follow us there, and...
[13:00.080 --> 13:04.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a little, there's a little tiny two-lane highway out, out in this rural area.
[13:04.920 --> 13:15.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so we, we get there, and we both pull over, us and Kevin's car, and all the, the media starts setting up, and it's just a huge traffic jam.
[13:15.780 --> 13:29.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, immediately a white sedan of, uh, some sort of federal agents pull up and say, Mr. Mitnick, you can't be here, this is still, uh, this belongs to the Air Force, uh, and you have to, you have to keep moving.
[13:29.500 --> 13:30.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, they called him Kevin.
[13:30.740 --> 13:32.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was, that was kind of nice.
[13:32.320 --> 13:34.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, they, you know, they were so obviously feds.
[13:34.880 --> 13:35.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Big fat feds, too.
[13:36.240 --> 13:41.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: The kind you see on TV, they just, you know, as soon as they pulled up and got out of the car, those are feds.
[13:41.420 --> 13:43.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they had a little pin on their lapels.
[13:44.040 --> 13:46.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: But you don't even need the pin, you don't even need the lapel, just the face.
[13:46.980 --> 13:47.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a fed face.
[13:47.860 --> 13:49.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how to describe it.
[13:49.600 --> 13:51.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you watch TV, you'll see these kind of people.
[13:51.840 --> 13:52.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: They really do exist.
[13:52.860 --> 13:53.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: They breed them.
[13:53.700 --> 13:54.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was pretty spooky.
[13:55.000 --> 13:59.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it turns out that where we were was also federal property, because that was part of the Air Force base.
[13:59.260 --> 13:59.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right.
[13:59.880 --> 14:09.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we, so we had to, uh, make a U-turn, and all the media, there was just traffic jam, so they had to kind of, like, pull over and let us by, because no one else knew where we were going.
[14:09.580 --> 14:19.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: At this point, we didn't even really know where we were going, but the, uh, federal agents told us, oh, well, in the other direction, you can get past the prison, and it's not federal property.
[14:20.140 --> 14:21.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just go away.
[14:21.700 --> 14:22.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there's nowhere to pull over.
[14:23.140 --> 14:23.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[14:23.500 --> 14:27.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we pull over into a truck yard, which was pretty big and pretty empty.
[14:27.620 --> 14:28.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: We were, oh, there's enough space here.
[14:29.500 --> 14:34.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, we hoped, well, we could maybe pay off the foreman and just use the parking lot for a while.
[14:34.540 --> 14:44.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: I walked up and I talked to the foreman who was just coming out of the building wondering what these, uh, 30 or so minivans just suddenly pulling into his, uh, into his, uh, driveway was all about.
[14:44.520 --> 14:47.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: I said, look, uh, this guy just got out of prison.
[14:47.340 --> 14:48.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: He needs to make a statement to the press.
[14:48.880 --> 14:54.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think you, maybe you could, I didn't even get the sentence finished before he said, you're going to have to move out of here because I've got a business to run.
[14:54.560 --> 15:05.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so, so we, we were kind of worried that, uh, you know, the next couple of hours would be spent driving aimlessly around roads in California with, uh, 30 different press outlets behind us.
[15:06.060 --> 15:06.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was kind of...
[15:06.580 --> 15:23.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: By the time we found out that we couldn't stay, um, our two cars were already surrounded by, uh, cameras and, uh, some, some agencies already had their, uh, tap, their transmitting towers up and, uh, we kind of had to stand there keeping them away from Kevin's car.
[15:23.180 --> 15:24.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: A real feeding frenzy.
[15:24.960 --> 15:25.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[15:25.380 --> 15:31.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And so, uh, so yeah, so, so a local, a local, uh, reporter knew of a park not far away.
[15:32.200 --> 15:32.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[15:32.560 --> 15:35.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm very happy that person was there because we never would have found that park.
[15:35.340 --> 15:36.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: The park was perfect.
[15:36.200 --> 15:38.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: We all went to the park and that's where Kevin wound up giving a statement.
[15:39.460 --> 15:43.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, if you want to read the statement, it's on Kevin Mitnick's website, freekevin.com.
[15:43.960 --> 15:49.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I think, uh, ZDTV actually put it up, uh, audio wise or video, video wise even.
[15:49.380 --> 15:51.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, if you have bandwidth, you can, you can actually hear it.
[15:51.620 --> 15:59.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but, uh, Kevin had a really skeething, uh, commentary about the media, about John Markoff, about his five years in prison.
[16:00.120 --> 16:02.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, well, he didn't want to take questions.
[16:02.560 --> 16:05.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, Mackie, why do you, why do you think he didn't want to take questions from the media?
[16:06.160 --> 16:24.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, um, besides for the, uh, the whole 60 minutes thing, uh, where he had some sort of exclusive arrangement, I mean, it would, um, it'd be really hard to give a balanced, you know, uh, really a fair response to all the questions without getting tracked into something.
[16:24.480 --> 16:24.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[16:24.800 --> 16:26.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, what was the first, what was the first question that was asked?
[16:26.920 --> 16:34.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, the first question, um, the, um, obnoxious CNN reporter asked was, uh, uh, do you have any remorse?
[16:35.300 --> 16:36.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any remorse?
[16:36.820 --> 16:44.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and as Isaac pointed out at the time, well, there's no real right answer to that that doesn't have at least a dozen follow-up questions.
[16:44.880 --> 16:45.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[16:45.240 --> 16:47.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's no real answer to that that makes him look good.
[16:47.180 --> 16:48.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, do you have any remorse?
[16:48.380 --> 16:48.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[16:49.280 --> 16:49.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[16:49.660 --> 16:50.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: That makes him...
[16:50.200 --> 16:51.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: That means you're guilty.
[16:51.180 --> 16:53.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's like one of these, uh, do you still beat your wife type questions.
[16:55.140 --> 17:00.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if the answer is no, do you have any remorse, uh, then, then you're, you're basically, you show no remorse for your crimes.
[17:01.440 --> 17:01.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[17:01.460 --> 17:02.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're an evil person either way.
[17:02.660 --> 17:03.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Assuming that there are crimes.
[17:04.320 --> 17:05.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I respected him for that.
[17:05.720 --> 17:07.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, the man knew what he was doing.
[17:07.880 --> 17:09.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was very craftily.
[17:09.320 --> 17:11.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Robert Kevin says no questions and explains why and everything.
[17:11.840 --> 17:13.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: He says, but are you bitter?
[17:15.140 --> 17:18.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And at this point, the Fox reporter kind of chimed in and said, well, wait a second.
[17:18.900 --> 17:21.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why are you answering 60 Minutes questions, not ours, huh?
[17:21.760 --> 17:22.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you have to hide?
[17:23.320 --> 17:25.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's when we started walking away from the...
[17:25.990 --> 17:30.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was kind of cool to be one of the people that was, like, ushering somebody away from the media.
[17:30.530 --> 17:31.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was fun.
[17:31.260 --> 17:35.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: We had to tell them, you know, when you ask why we're not taking any questions, that's a question.
[17:36.060 --> 17:37.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're not taking any of those.
[17:37.840 --> 17:43.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, basically, Kevin is going to talk to all kinds of different people over time.
[17:43.530 --> 17:45.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: But this is the moment he just got out.
[17:45.530 --> 17:49.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he was ready for a barrage of all different kinds of things like that.
[17:50.160 --> 17:53.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: So in due time, I'm sure he'll have many, many things to say.
[17:53.470 --> 17:59.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, for about five years, Emmanuel, this is probably the first moment that Kevin had complete control over a situation.
[18:00.380 --> 18:11.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think he finally wanted just to have that breath of fresh air to actually be in control of something for a change after years of zero privacy and zero control of his own life.
[18:11.820 --> 18:15.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, hey, you've got to give the guy what he wants.
[18:16.600 --> 18:16.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[18:16.920 --> 18:24.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, in all the reporting that I saw, very, very few, maybe one or two, actually alluded to anything that he said in his statement.
[18:24.660 --> 18:27.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and that's it right there.
[18:27.080 --> 18:27.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't listen.
[18:27.950 --> 18:29.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't care about what you have to say.
[18:29.420 --> 18:32.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: They just want to write their story around your appearance.
[18:32.280 --> 18:33.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: They know what they want to report ahead of time.
[18:33.680 --> 18:43.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm surprised that Kevin didn't express any opinion about our Justice Department and the whole legal system.
[18:43.860 --> 18:57.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: He seemed to be more addressing the media's coverage as opposed to his treatment and how the justice system was basically perverted to convict him.
[18:57.260 --> 18:59.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the statement took about 10 minutes to read.
[18:59.760 --> 19:03.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess he could have stayed there an hour talking about all kinds of different things.
[19:04.060 --> 19:04.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, easily.
[19:05.040 --> 19:07.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know you had a lot to say when you got out of prison about all the various things.
[19:07.800 --> 19:10.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, my jaw was wired shut, so it was difficult for me to say anything.
[19:11.030 --> 19:12.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they worked that out real good with you.
[19:14.260 --> 19:24.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: There are some really great pictures of the whole fiasco during his release on the 2600 site, including all the reporters swarming around.
[19:24.680 --> 19:28.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we even have the fat-headed feds on the webpage, so if you want to take a look...
[19:28.660 --> 19:32.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's probably illegal for us to do this, but we put it on there anyway, and you can see them for yourself.
[19:32.390 --> 19:33.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: And tell me yourself...
[19:33.340 --> 19:37.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, look at those pictures and tell me if you saw one of those people coming at you, you wouldn't know that was a fed.
[19:38.800 --> 19:39.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Fat-headed feds.
[19:39.800 --> 19:40.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Fat-headed feds.
[19:40.640 --> 19:40.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[19:41.160 --> 19:41.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, jeez.
[19:42.540 --> 19:44.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: Feds don't like to have their pictures taken.
[19:44.640 --> 19:45.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: I noticed that.
[19:45.530 --> 19:46.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: I noticed that.
[19:46.200 --> 19:49.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: They always tend to, you know, cover their faces and shy away when you do that.
[19:50.390 --> 19:51.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's why I always carry a camera.
[19:51.700 --> 19:53.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, it's amazing.
[19:53.800 --> 20:01.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: After that whole press thing, we made sure all the press people left, all right, and then we got Kevin out of there.
[20:01.860 --> 20:02.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, no, wait, Kevin left.
[20:02.910 --> 20:03.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what happened.
[20:03.470 --> 20:04.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Kevin left first.
[20:04.180 --> 20:05.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: We made sure none of the press people followed him.
[20:05.760 --> 20:14.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Then the press people started to leave, and then we joined Kevin at a secret place, just a place we could get pancakes or something for the first time in God knows how long.
[20:14.860 --> 20:17.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was amazing because there were press people there already.
[20:17.930 --> 20:22.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there was a press person that just happened to be around the area, and she recognized Kevin.
[20:22.430 --> 20:25.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: She worked for a local paper in the town of Lompoc.
[20:25.560 --> 20:27.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Ah, what a dead-end job that must be.
[20:27.490 --> 20:28.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: She saw her bumper stickers.
[20:29.200 --> 20:32.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she saw the bumper stickers, which we foolishly left on our rental car.
[20:33.370 --> 20:35.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, of course, she's chasing around Kevin.
[20:35.470 --> 20:36.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: She was nice.
[20:36.320 --> 20:41.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: She was, you know, fairly respective of, you know, privacy and things like that, wanting to know if he could say anything to her.
[20:41.450 --> 20:44.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, he wasn't able to, didn't want to at that particular moment in time.
[20:44.160 --> 20:50.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Then we had people sitting at the next table over who somehow knew who he was, and they wanted autographs and things like that.
[20:50.060 --> 20:55.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was really kind of funny that this whole spectacle was following us everywhere.
[20:55.540 --> 20:59.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Lincoln Town Cars, like you wouldn't believe, every time he turned around, you'd see something like that.
[21:00.580 --> 21:08.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, every time Kevin had to talk to somebody on the phone, he had to go outside and use a payphone because, of course, he wasn't allowed to use any of the dozen or so cell phones that were at the table.
[21:09.260 --> 21:11.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it was fun, though.
[21:11.700 --> 21:15.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we spent the next couple of days in Los Angeles just kind of catching up on things.
[21:15.780 --> 21:17.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: He did have some toy cell phones, though.
[21:18.580 --> 21:18.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did he?
[21:18.930 --> 21:20.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some refrigerator magnets, I believe.
[21:20.220 --> 21:21.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, the refrigerator magnets.
[21:22.180 --> 21:24.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully that's okay, but we'll see.
[21:24.680 --> 21:27.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: What about a Nextel phone or a PCS phone?
[21:28.060 --> 21:28.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're not cellular.
[21:29.660 --> 21:31.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: You really want to argue that in front of a probation officer?
[21:31.840 --> 21:38.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Basically, I learned that if the feds call a cat a dog, then for all practical purposes, it's a dog.
[21:39.540 --> 21:41.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: They've made things so difficult for him, though.
[21:41.280 --> 21:47.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: They say that, I mean, everybody wants to interview Kevin, and they're offering him a speaking tour, all kinds of things like that.
[21:47.260 --> 21:48.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: He is not allowed to do that.
[21:48.760 --> 21:52.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's not allowed to benefit in any way from his crimes.
[21:52.640 --> 21:55.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, all these other people are becoming millionaires because of his crimes.
[21:55.660 --> 22:03.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: But he cannot accept a speaking engagement or have an interview with somebody where he accepts anything for it.
[22:03.640 --> 22:05.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that really makes things difficult.
[22:05.140 --> 22:07.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, of course, he's also looking for a job.
[22:07.240 --> 22:11.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, this is a very important consideration because if you want to survive in the free world, you do have to earn money.
[22:11.660 --> 22:13.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's not allowed to be around computers.
[22:13.520 --> 22:14.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: It makes it very difficult.
[22:14.700 --> 22:19.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, one of the probation officers went on record as saying that he could dig ditches.
[22:20.020 --> 22:20.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Literally.
[22:20.620 --> 22:25.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what they expect him to do, something like that for the next three years.
[22:25.140 --> 22:26.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what they expect him to do.
[22:26.280 --> 22:28.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: So we're trying to work it out.
[22:28.410 --> 22:37.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're trying to get him a position someplace where, you know, he won't be around computers, but he will at least be able to get a fairly well-paying job where he can afford to live on his own.
[22:38.120 --> 22:45.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you want to help out with that, please send us email, oth@2600.com, and we'll forward it to Kevin.
[22:47.040 --> 22:48.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we also have an address.
[22:48.450 --> 22:49.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bernard, do you have that address on you?
[22:49.820 --> 22:50.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: I do.
[22:50.390 --> 22:56.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Also, Kevin has a mailing address where you could send letters or, more importantly, any type of...
[22:56.390 --> 23:02.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I don't even know if we want to say any type of equipment that you could send him, but you can't send him any kind of computers.
[23:02.460 --> 23:03.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, no computers.
[23:03.410 --> 23:03.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: No cell phones.
[23:04.240 --> 23:05.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: What exactly is restricted, Emmanuel?
[23:06.620 --> 23:08.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's not allowed to have a cellular phone.
[23:08.280 --> 23:11.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's not allowed to have anything that's a computer or computer-related.
[23:12.580 --> 23:13.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, he can have magazines.
[23:13.950 --> 23:14.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: He can read things.
[23:20.390 --> 23:22.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll send him just the things...
[23:22.040 --> 23:23.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Picture yourself five years ago.
[23:23.580 --> 23:25.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: All the things that have happened in five years.
[23:25.430 --> 23:26.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you've seen movies.
[23:27.120 --> 23:31.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Send him a videotape of your favorite movies, something he might have missed because he certainly didn't see it in prison.
[23:32.140 --> 23:34.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Send him, you know, a CD that you think he might like.
[23:34.740 --> 23:35.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just go on Amazon.
[23:35.800 --> 23:43.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just go on, you know, CD Now, whatever those online things are, and just buy stuff for him and enter his address, and he'll get it in two days.
[23:43.300 --> 23:54.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: I actually sent Kevin a radio scanner today so he can listen to ham radio and, you know, all kinds of two-way communications, because I know he's a ham radio operator, and that would interest him.
[23:54.200 --> 23:55.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a very good idea.
[23:55.410 --> 23:57.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Things like that, ham radio-related, things he'd enjoy.
[23:57.780 --> 24:06.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, here's an address for Kevin that people can send books, magazines, videotapes, permitted equipment, anything other than computers or cell phones, too.
[24:06.740 --> 24:29.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, it's Kevin Mitnick, M-I-T-N-I-C-K, at 2219 East Thousand Oaks Boulevard, number 432, and that's in Thousand Oaks, California, 91362.
[24:29.620 --> 24:30.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let me read that one more time.
[24:30.450 --> 24:46.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's Kevin Mitnick, 2219 East Thousand Oaks Boulevard, number 432, and that's in Thousand Oaks, California, 91362.
[24:46.410 --> 24:48.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Emmanuel, are there actually a thousand oaks there?
[24:49.060 --> 24:50.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I didn't have time to count them.
[24:50.840 --> 24:51.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: I saw a couple.
[24:51.980 --> 24:56.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's definitely a couple oaks out there, but I guess calling it Couple Oaks, California, wouldn't make much sense.
[24:56.850 --> 25:02.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: But also, I should point out to the people, we've gotten several letters from people saying, what are you doing giving out his home address?
[25:02.410 --> 25:07.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's not his home address, that's actually a mailbox with kind of a cool-sounding address.
[25:07.860 --> 25:11.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, don't go out there thinking you're going to find his house by finding that particular address.
[25:11.840 --> 25:14.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: You'll find a little silver mailbox is what you're going to find.
[25:14.360 --> 25:21.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, listen, Kevin has had zero, absolutely zero privacy in his life for the past five years, and he deserves a little privacy.
[25:21.060 --> 25:25.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: If I were in his shoes, I'd get a PO box or a mailing address instead for a while, too.
[25:25.620 --> 25:28.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: You just have to, you've got to breathe and enjoy some peace for a while.
[25:28.680 --> 25:32.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have to say that people have been very respective of his privacy.
[25:32.180 --> 25:39.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: There were a lot of people around during the few days we were out there, and they showed complete respect for his family, gave him the time he needed.
[25:40.450 --> 25:45.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think overall, people on the net have shown incredible sensitivity towards this whole thing.
[25:45.520 --> 25:47.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've seen some of the letters that have been sent to him.
[25:47.240 --> 25:50.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, there's a lot of sickos out there, too, saying, you should rot in jail for the rest of your life.
[25:50.680 --> 25:52.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, you're going to get those people no matter what.
[25:52.540 --> 25:53.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are people sending us that kind of mail.
[25:54.080 --> 26:00.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's, I think he's very heartened, very happy that people actually care.
[26:00.840 --> 26:06.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he was very surprised when I said, you know, there's kids writing reports about you in high schools all throughout the country.
[26:06.060 --> 26:08.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: He was amazed people are doing this kind of thing.
[26:08.280 --> 26:11.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's, I've gotten so much mail from people who are doing just that.
[26:11.930 --> 26:15.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's as inspirational to him as he is inspirational to them.
[26:16.060 --> 26:17.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's no question about that.
[26:17.980 --> 26:20.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: So again, Kevin will be on the show next week.
[26:20.260 --> 26:22.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll have a chance to ask him all kinds of questions.
[26:22.140 --> 26:26.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: If there's something you'd like us to ask him, please email us OTH at 2600.com.
[26:27.860 --> 26:29.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'd like to take phone calls next week.
[26:29.620 --> 26:35.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, it's possible that he might have so much to say, first of all, that we might not be able to have the chance next week.
[26:35.410 --> 26:37.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we certainly if we don't do it next week, we'll do it in weeks to come.
[26:38.430 --> 26:41.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the same holds true for today, because we also have a lot more to get to.
[26:42.160 --> 26:48.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: While we were out there while we were in California, in fact, the very day before Kevin was was set to be released.
[26:48.410 --> 26:55.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, right after I got out of the prison visiting him, I checked my voicemail on my phone, because I wasn't allowed to bring the phone into the prison.
[26:55.800 --> 27:01.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there was a message there saying that, actually, you know, it goes back even further than that, because we haven't been on the air in three weeks.
[27:02.160 --> 27:12.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: We talked about the lawsuit that was filed against us, actually against me specifically, for the DVD, I guess, encryption cracking code is the best way to describe it.
[27:13.300 --> 27:20.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: There was a second lawsuit filed shortly thereafter, right after our last show on these airwaves.
[27:20.540 --> 27:23.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: A second lawsuit was filed in the state of New York.
[27:23.240 --> 27:27.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the reason we were kind of jovial about the last one was because it was filed in California.
[27:27.760 --> 27:29.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: It didn't really affect us that much.
[27:29.860 --> 27:32.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was filed against how many people, Mackie?
[27:33.260 --> 27:33.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hundreds.
[27:34.160 --> 27:35.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: 500 John Doe's.
[27:35.500 --> 27:36.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a whole lot of people.
[27:37.060 --> 27:44.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there was another lawsuit filed a couple of weeks after that in federal court, federal court in New York.
[27:44.860 --> 27:46.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that was against four individuals.
[27:47.060 --> 27:48.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I'm sorry, it was against three individuals.
[27:48.660 --> 27:51.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was also filed in Connecticut against one other individual.
[27:51.740 --> 27:53.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I was one of the individuals.
[27:54.260 --> 27:55.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was really pretty surprising.
[27:55.460 --> 27:57.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: I learned this when I was in New York the last couple of days.
[27:57.930 --> 27:59.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was on a Friday.
[27:59.640 --> 28:04.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was a Friday, a week before Kevin was to be released, the 14th.
[28:04.450 --> 28:08.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's when I found out that this lawsuit had been filed.
[28:09.080 --> 28:12.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: I found out, Mackie, you called me on the phone, in fact, while I was driving.
[28:12.160 --> 28:13.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was in New Jersey at the time.
[28:13.680 --> 28:14.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah.
[28:14.280 --> 28:14.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I remember that.
[28:15.080 --> 28:18.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I, you know, you left me, well, you called me and said, hey, guess what?
[28:18.450 --> 28:20.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's another lawsuit and you're one of three people named.
[28:21.480 --> 28:23.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I was pretty shocked by that.
[28:23.950 --> 28:28.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: And what was even more amazing was that, obviously, this time they would have to serve it in person.
[28:28.760 --> 28:34.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: We were waiting for them to serve us with legal papers last time, wondering what we had to do if we tip the guys when they come, you know, things like that.
[28:34.980 --> 28:36.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: But they never actually came.
[28:36.450 --> 28:37.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: They just mailed it to us.
[28:37.680 --> 28:41.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: This time, they actually, well, they tried to deliver it in person.
[28:41.620 --> 28:48.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: A more bungled attempt I cannot possibly come up with, if you gave me, you know, the best fiction writers in the country.
[28:49.480 --> 28:52.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: These two guys came to where they thought I was at the time.
[28:53.100 --> 28:54.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, I was in another state at the time.
[28:54.960 --> 29:01.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they said to the people there, listen, we have to serve this, you know, and I promise you this will not be painless.
[29:01.460 --> 29:02.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know what that even means.
[29:02.860 --> 29:05.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think the guy meant to say this will not be painful.
[29:05.820 --> 29:09.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: And in fact, one of the people there said, don't you mean to say, I promise you this will not be painful?
[29:10.040 --> 29:13.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the guy got all perplexed and said, look, just take the thing.
[29:13.460 --> 29:16.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the people there said, no, we're not going to take it.
[29:16.360 --> 29:18.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're not taking things for other people.
[29:18.240 --> 29:20.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to serve it to the person yourself.
[29:21.300 --> 29:22.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: They pitched it through the door.
[29:23.280 --> 29:27.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: They actually took the legal documents and they threw it football style through the door.
[29:28.180 --> 29:36.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the door was open because they were talking to them and right into the And apparently, I am told, I am told that that is considered legally serving somebody.
[29:36.910 --> 29:38.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you can believe that.
[29:38.160 --> 29:39.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: That, in this country, is legally serving somebody.
[29:40.080 --> 29:42.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Pitching it through the door of a house that you're not even in.
[29:43.100 --> 29:44.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, maybe a volleyball-style server.
[29:45.620 --> 29:48.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, in any event, that was the extent of it.
[29:48.720 --> 29:55.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then later, right after that, apparently they went out to the... well, they must have done this beforehand, because this happened at about 6.30 at night on Friday.
[29:56.460 --> 30:02.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Before that, they apparently tried to serve the post office box that is registered at 2,600.
[30:03.950 --> 30:09.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the reason I know they did that was because we received in the mail something addressed to the P.O.
[30:09.430 --> 30:11.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: box from the very post office that the P.O.
[30:11.860 --> 30:12.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: box is in.
[30:12.980 --> 30:18.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that meant that these cement heads must have gone out there, thinking that they were going to find us at the P.O.
[30:18.360 --> 30:18.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: box.
[30:18.780 --> 30:21.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, standing at attention by our P.O.
[30:21.480 --> 30:21.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: box.
[30:21.820 --> 30:22.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's where we conduct business.
[30:22.950 --> 30:23.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's one of those really big P.O.
[30:23.100 --> 30:23.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: boxes.
[30:24.700 --> 30:26.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe they knocked on the box.
[30:26.160 --> 30:26.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[30:26.640 --> 30:29.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: They were trying to get into the box somehow to serve us with this documentation.
[30:29.800 --> 30:32.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the post office must have explained to them, look, this is how post offices work.
[30:33.040 --> 30:33.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can't do that.
[30:34.080 --> 30:37.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: So the best you can do is mail it to us from the post office, and that's what they did.
[30:38.080 --> 30:39.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: So we got a copy there as well.
[30:40.430 --> 30:52.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so this lawsuit has been filed on the 14th of January against me and two other people in New York, one of whom, by the way, runs the Internet service provider who we may know as escape.com.
[30:52.430 --> 31:07.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Roman Kazan, who has been on this show quite a few times, he was actually served with a lawsuit because one of his customers had the DECSS code on his website, on that person's personal website that was hosted by escape.com.
[31:07.390 --> 31:10.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Roman had no idea this was even going on.
[31:10.180 --> 31:11.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: No idea at all.
[31:11.040 --> 31:12.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he was brought into this whole thing.
[31:13.060 --> 31:13.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's insane.
[31:14.600 --> 31:28.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: So the way it worked out, we had literally a day, literally a single day to prepare everything, and there was just no way to do it in time where we had to come up with a whole defense and all kinds of proclamations and documentation and things like that.
[31:28.800 --> 31:32.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: And plus, keep in mind that I was on the way to California to see Kevin get released.
[31:33.360 --> 31:36.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: So for some reason, we had to submit everything by Wednesday at 7 a.m.
[31:36.980 --> 31:37.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: That just did not happen.
[31:37.950 --> 31:41.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: We submitted it a few hours later, I think, and the court would not accept it.
[31:42.410 --> 31:45.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And also, that week was a holiday week.
[31:45.660 --> 31:46.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Martin Luther King Day was Monday.
[31:46.660 --> 31:48.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that means we only had Tuesday to do this.
[31:48.660 --> 31:49.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's incredible.
[31:49.450 --> 31:52.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: I just cannot believe that this is how justice works.
[31:52.600 --> 31:59.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: So the hearing was actually held on Thursday, and this was a preliminary injunction against material on the website.
[32:00.080 --> 32:16.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: So as I was getting out of prison in Lompa, California, on that Thursday afternoon, checked my voicemail, and there was a message for me from one of the lawyers over at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who very graciously have stepped in to spearhead the challenge to this whole thing,
[32:16.120 --> 32:21.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: saying that the preliminary injunction was ruled upon in New York and that we had lost.
[32:22.040 --> 32:37.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so then we were faced with a rather serious choice as to what we should do then, because technically, they could issue a warrant for my arrest at that particular moment in time for having this on the website, even though it's the magazine's website,
[32:37.220 --> 32:39.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: and I don't even necessarily have the authority to do this.
[32:39.680 --> 32:42.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: They had my name from the Whois documentation on the Internet.
[32:42.560 --> 32:45.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: They said, well, this person is the technical contact.
[32:45.480 --> 32:48.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's how they got Roman's name, because he was the technical contact for this other site.
[32:49.100 --> 32:52.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: So therefore, they're guilty, and they have to take the site down.
[32:52.860 --> 32:55.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, of all the contacts, the technical, you'd think it'd be the administrative?
[32:56.320 --> 32:56.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: You'd think so.
[32:56.360 --> 32:57.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Or the billing?
[32:57.000 --> 32:58.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you'd think so.
[32:58.160 --> 33:01.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or in my case, I am the administrative as well, but in Roman's case, he was not.
[33:01.460 --> 33:02.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: He was the tech?
[33:02.160 --> 33:04.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea why he was brought into this in the first place.
[33:05.020 --> 33:06.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's completely crazy.
[33:06.180 --> 33:10.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, Mackie, I guess maybe you could describe what we did at that point as far as the...
[33:10.950 --> 33:17.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, and the voicemail specifically said, you know, this judge would think nothing of sending you to jail.
[33:17.180 --> 33:21.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's a federal case, so even though we're in California, it would be the U.S.
[33:21.260 --> 33:23.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: marshals from the prison coming out.
[33:23.100 --> 33:23.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[33:23.480 --> 33:25.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: They just have to walk across the lawn.
[33:25.360 --> 33:26.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: What timing!
[33:26.930 --> 33:27.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: What amazing timing!
[33:27.860 --> 33:31.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this was about, you know, 12 hours before he was going to get released.
[33:31.410 --> 33:37.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was also less than 48 hours after the hearing, which took place out in California on the previous Tuesday.
[33:37.300 --> 33:41.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: The one time in my life I decided to travel light and leave my laptop at home.
[33:41.100 --> 33:50.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we had to quickly get this stuff off our webpage if we wanted to avoid the warrant.
[33:50.500 --> 34:00.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we had to drive to the nearest Kinko's, which was about 45 minutes away in the next town, and use their public Internet terminals.
[34:01.340 --> 34:14.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we stayed up all morning, and we wrote an article to explain what had happened, typed up a copy of the injunction ruling, and removed the software from the site.
[34:14.930 --> 34:20.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: I got to say, it's kind of cool to have a Kinko's for situations like that, because we pretty much took over that place.
[34:20.460 --> 34:26.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: We were pacing around, yelling and screaming, kind of debating the whole process, what we should do, what we should say, how we should say it.
[34:26.860 --> 34:30.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, it was good, because we had the material we needed to be able to write things.
[34:30.580 --> 34:40.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the thing that I really objected to was being forced into that position where we had to pretty much bypass our security, because I don't think logging in from a Kinko's is a very safe way of doing anything.
[34:40.950 --> 34:42.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we had no choice, literally.
[34:42.790 --> 34:50.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: If it wasn't that Kinko's there, I don't know what would have happened, because we had no way of getting the stuff off the site, other than dictating it to people over the phone, and who wants to do that?
[34:50.930 --> 35:11.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Having spoken to the lawyers on your side of this issue, Emmanuel, they assured me that this judge would not hesitate to file a contempt of court order against you personally, in which case you would have been arrested, handcuffed, and taken to jail if you did not remove this software forthwith.
[35:11.520 --> 35:15.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it would have been hard for you to fight this thing from behind bars.
[35:15.620 --> 35:25.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I think you, I know you felt, I knew you had a lot of strong feelings about taking this information down off of the website, but we need you out.
[35:26.000 --> 35:29.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, I like to think I'm better off on the outside, too.
[35:29.360 --> 35:33.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, you're right, it was a horrible feeling having to submit like that.
[35:33.780 --> 35:41.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was comforted by the fact that we were still able to figure out ways to get the message out anyway, namely through having links on the website.
[35:41.450 --> 35:42.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Since then, we've gotten all kinds.
[35:43.020 --> 35:45.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: We haven't been able to keep up with the number of links that have come in.
[35:46.000 --> 35:52.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you go to the website now, you'll see that we have all kinds of articles, all kinds of transcripts and things like that.
[35:52.220 --> 35:57.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: But one of the things that we have there is a way for people to submit links to sites that still have the information up there.
[35:57.780 --> 35:59.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, they may go a step further.
[35:59.220 --> 36:01.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: They may outlaw links as well.
[36:01.220 --> 36:02.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're trying to do that right now.
[36:02.500 --> 36:05.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're trying to file papers to make it illegal to put links up.
[36:05.960 --> 36:07.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: When they do that, we'll have to figure something else out.
[36:08.080 --> 36:10.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the thing is, we're not going to be silenced easily.
[36:10.540 --> 36:12.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's the point we're making here.
[36:12.540 --> 36:15.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Have we made it clear who this day is?
[36:15.680 --> 36:16.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, no.
[36:16.460 --> 36:17.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't you tell us?
[36:18.810 --> 36:21.410]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is eight major motion picture studios.
[36:22.740 --> 36:27.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's all the major motion picture studios.
[36:27.020 --> 36:32.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: We're talking companies that own most of the major media outlets in the United States.
[36:33.560 --> 36:37.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, Disney, which is like ABC News.
[36:38.850 --> 36:40.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Times Warner, which is CNN.
[36:40.850 --> 36:42.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm sure you know some others.
[36:42.390 --> 36:47.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: These are major, major media outlets that you're up against.
[36:47.680 --> 36:47.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[36:47.910 --> 36:48.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Paramount.
[36:48.460 --> 36:49.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: They own UPN.
[36:49.290 --> 36:49.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Warner Brothers.
[36:49.830 --> 36:50.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Warner Brothers Network.
[36:50.910 --> 36:52.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, who watches that anyway?
[36:52.270 --> 36:52.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[36:52.430 --> 36:53.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody watches it.
[36:53.060 --> 36:53.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they only have the news department.
[36:53.910 --> 37:04.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the point is, you know, all the media people are pretty much controlled by these companies in the first place, which is probably why, if you saw any news about this at all, it has something to do with DVD pirates losing a case in court.
[37:04.790 --> 37:09.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's almost exactly how the Los Angeles Times, which I happened to read while I was out there, phrased this thing.
[37:10.270 --> 37:15.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was really frustrating because if you've been following the case, it's got nothing to do with piracy.
[37:16.040 --> 37:21.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe one of you guys could explain a little bit, very briefly, technically, what this code is about.
[37:21.910 --> 37:22.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead, Mackie.
[37:23.080 --> 37:23.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[37:23.850 --> 37:38.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, DECSS is the software in question here, is a product of an open-source project to make a free and open DVD player for the Linux operating system.
[37:41.090 --> 37:48.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: And DECSS specifically is the part of the player that decrypts the DVD movie to allow you to play it.
[37:48.310 --> 37:54.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, DVDs are all, at least ones released by major motion picture studios.
[37:56.020 --> 38:02.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: The actual movie on the disc is encrypted with something called Content Scrambling System, or CSS.
[38:03.040 --> 38:17.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they have virtually a monopoly on all the players because up until now they had to license everyone who wanted to make a DVD player had to go through them to find out how to decrypt it.
[38:18.910 --> 38:27.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: This Linux project went and reverse engineered it and found out, oh, here's how you decrypt it and published their findings.
[38:27.140 --> 38:31.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the Motion Picture Association doesn't like that.
[38:32.590 --> 38:33.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: So they've...
[38:34.930 --> 38:37.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: They went ahead and took all this action.
[38:37.700 --> 38:42.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it should be pointed out that it always has been possible to copy DVDs, right?
[38:42.580 --> 38:43.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, that's the key thing.
[38:44.390 --> 38:52.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: The major media outlets are trying to put this forth as this wonderful way of now being able to pirate DVD movies.
[38:52.980 --> 38:58.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I'm sorry, but you could copy these things before we managed to crack the encryption.
[38:59.480 --> 38:59.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's...
[38:59.960 --> 39:02.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Basically, this is just about playing it.
[39:02.370 --> 39:03.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's access control.
[39:03.540 --> 39:13.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Where you go out, you spend 60 bucks on this movie, you bring it home, and you can't play it on your computer because you're not running Windows with a licensed DVD playing software.
[39:13.200 --> 39:14.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're not running your Mac.
[39:14.960 --> 39:18.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're not using one of the hardware devices.
[39:19.120 --> 39:22.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's basically them trying to control access to the content.
[39:22.720 --> 39:28.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: But what they're going to try to do is they're going to try and say that it's, oh, all these guys are running around and they're pirating software.
[39:28.930 --> 39:31.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're copying our movies so they can give them to their friends.
[39:32.220 --> 39:39.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: My favorite one is that we're trying to de-grip the movies, put them into large MPEG files, and send them over the Internet.
[39:40.100 --> 39:41.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if you notice, the net's been slow lately.
[39:42.060 --> 39:42.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's because of that.
[39:42.850 --> 39:47.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: We've been swapping, you know, 3.7 gig files all the time.
[39:47.180 --> 39:49.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, you know, it's just absurd.
[39:49.540 --> 39:51.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, you know, the movies are cheaper than 60 bucks.
[39:51.520 --> 39:52.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can get them for 20 bucks.
[39:52.560 --> 39:53.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: 20 bucks.
[39:53.080 --> 39:53.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: 20 bucks.
[39:53.770 --> 39:59.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't make sense for people to go to all this trouble and inconvenience to bypass buying a real DVD for 20 bucks.
[39:59.810 --> 40:09.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: The point is that money is leaving your wallet and going into an investment of purchasing this film, and yet you can't watch it because you don't have a licensed player from these other people.
[40:09.850 --> 40:13.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: So they're getting you at the cash register, and they're getting you once you get home.
[40:13.720 --> 40:17.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's something that's never been done before as far as this kind of technology.
[40:17.390 --> 40:18.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: For instance, CD players.
[40:18.540 --> 40:21.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't have this kind of player control by the music industry.
[40:21.700 --> 40:26.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine if every CD player had to be licensed for you to actually listen to it.
[40:26.460 --> 40:30.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine if you could not listen to a CD that was bought in England, for instance.
[40:30.140 --> 40:31.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people buy imported CDs.
[40:31.890 --> 40:32.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know what?
[40:33.300 --> 40:34.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: DVDs, you're not allowed to do that.
[40:34.870 --> 40:37.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can't buy a DVD in another country and listen to it here.
[40:37.430 --> 40:38.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: They want to control that.
[40:38.540 --> 40:42.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's part of the control that they're very nervous about losing.
[40:42.520 --> 40:43.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: But that's what it's all about.
[40:43.770 --> 40:49.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they're trying to push this as pirates, just swapping these discs, which is not the case.
[40:49.060 --> 40:56.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: And we have to wake people up to that fact, because, you know, Joe Sixpack, sitting at home, is going to see, oh, these guys are copying movies.
[40:56.660 --> 40:57.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Go darn it.
[40:57.310 --> 40:58.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, they're rascals.
[40:59.060 --> 41:00.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Which isn't what it's all about.
[41:00.720 --> 41:03.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's all about being able to play the thing that you actually purchased.
[41:04.370 --> 41:08.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: And there's a movement afoot to educate people about this, isn't there, Emmanuel?
[41:08.000 --> 41:16.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, in fact, I'm holding the flyer that has been manufactured where, actually, to echo what Isaac just said, we're not their enemy, we're their customers.
[41:16.500 --> 41:18.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's certainly the case here.
[41:18.830 --> 41:23.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have a flyer that you can download and print and pass out.
[41:23.180 --> 41:25.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And where people are passing the masks has already happened.
[41:25.540 --> 41:30.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Many thousands of them have been passed out already at movie theaters and video stores throughout the country, throughout the world, in fact.
[41:31.020 --> 41:32.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're making translations for different countries.
[41:32.700 --> 41:42.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: And those are the people you want to hit, the people who know what the MPAA is, that are familiar with the various studios out there, and we'll put some pressure on them.
[41:42.770 --> 41:43.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just get the word out.
[41:44.220 --> 41:56.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: What we're doing this Friday, we're doing a massive, probably bigger than anything we've ever done before, a massive leaflet handout in coordination with all the 2,600 meetings, because this happens to be the first Friday of the month, which means we're having meetings,
[41:56.240 --> 41:58.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think, in about almost 100 cities worldwide.
[41:59.830 --> 42:05.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're asking people to print these out in those various cities, hand them out outside theaters, outside video stores.
[42:05.770 --> 42:09.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: All the information is on the web page, www.2600.com.
[42:09.850 --> 42:15.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: In addition, we have Linux Expo taking place here in New York City tomorrow, Thursday, and Friday.
[42:16.410 --> 42:18.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you go there, it's at the Javits Center.
[42:18.560 --> 42:21.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to have the 2,600 van outside there.
[42:21.180 --> 42:26.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be handing out all kinds of leaflets, recruiting people for the Friday action, and hopefully just getting the word spread around.
[42:26.980 --> 42:34.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have a real activist movement here, because what they did was they made a real mistake picking these people to target, picking an ISP, picking a magazine.
[42:35.680 --> 42:37.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's got a lot of people riled up.
[42:37.680 --> 42:39.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've never seen so much support.
[42:39.310 --> 42:45.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I was mentioning before about the various, you know, sicko people that write in to say Kevin Mitnick should be locked up for the rest of his life and things like that.
[42:46.160 --> 42:49.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Everything we've always been involved in, from Bernie S.
[42:49.460 --> 43:00.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: to Phiber Optik to Kevin Mitnick, we've always had a small percentage of, you know, some of them are lunatics, some of them actually are well-thought-out arguments, but there have always been people that have been opposed to what it is that we stand for.
[43:01.120 --> 43:09.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: In this particular case, and I'm sure this will change after I bring attention to it, but in this particular case, we have gotten thousands of pieces of email about this.
[43:09.580 --> 43:17.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have not seen a single one piece saying that the Motion Picture Association is correct, that the studios are correct in bringing us to court.
[43:17.310 --> 43:17.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not one.
[43:17.950 --> 43:19.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Except for all the legal notices.
[43:20.290 --> 43:21.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, except for them.
[43:21.290 --> 43:24.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: The reason is because it's such an affront to common sense.
[43:24.890 --> 43:25.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, you go out...
[43:25.960 --> 43:27.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: Say you go out and you purchase a meal.
[43:27.540 --> 43:29.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, you go to Kentucky Fried Chicken or something.
[43:29.430 --> 43:34.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: You bring the Bucket-O-Chicken home, you put it on your plate, and you couldn't...
[43:34.290 --> 43:36.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just imagine not being able to eat the chicken because you don't...
[43:36.620 --> 43:37.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I can imagine that.
[43:37.560 --> 43:37.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because you...
[43:37.930 --> 43:38.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, fine.
[43:38.850 --> 43:41.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because you don't have a licensed knife and fork.
[43:41.310 --> 43:41.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[43:42.460 --> 43:43.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's just ludicrous.
[43:43.480 --> 43:52.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: How can an industry be able to function like this by continually bludgeoning their customers over the head with these license restrictions?
[43:52.440 --> 43:52.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's greed.
[43:53.120 --> 43:53.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what it's about.
[43:53.800 --> 43:54.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's all about greed.
[43:54.820 --> 43:59.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's all greed, but people have to wake up to the fact that this kind of thing is going on.
[43:59.420 --> 44:01.790]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's a gentleman named Jack Valenti, I believe.
[44:01.790 --> 44:02.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, boy.
[44:02.600 --> 44:05.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: I believe, is he not the head of the Motion Picture Association?
[44:05.680 --> 44:06.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's the head of the MPAA.
[44:06.920 --> 44:08.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I actually kind of like this guy.
[44:08.520 --> 44:13.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's kind of like, you know, a gruff guy, like the guy in Reservoir Dogs, you know, just kind of like growled all the time.
[44:13.360 --> 44:15.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: A five-foot-one guy with a Napoleon complex.
[44:15.340 --> 44:20.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but when he starts mentioning my name and calling me a pirate, I get kind of pissed off.
[44:20.180 --> 44:23.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I'm telling you this right now, and this is on behalf of the other people too.
[44:23.540 --> 44:33.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are some very major counter lawsuits being planned here because when you put somebody's name in newspapers, in press releases, and call them criminals, you know, that's an affront.
[44:33.960 --> 44:34.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: It really is.
[44:34.600 --> 44:42.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I resent being called a pirate, somebody that goes around making money off Hollywood and trying to copy films when I've never even thought of doing something like that.
[44:42.640 --> 44:45.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: So this guy, this guy has gotten himself into a bit of trouble.
[44:45.270 --> 44:46.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he realizes it yet.
[44:46.720 --> 44:52.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: He has threatened to file a thousand lawsuits a day if that's what it takes.
[44:54.460 --> 44:54.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[44:55.790 --> 44:58.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we can get the environmentalists behind this too then.
[44:58.340 --> 44:59.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, you've got to save the trees.
[44:59.420 --> 45:00.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: All the paperwork is going to be involved.
[45:00.770 --> 45:04.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I cannot describe the amount of paper that we've gotten in the past couple of weeks.
[45:04.100 --> 45:09.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I found this book the other day that I hadn't even opened yet, and it was just filled with all this legal stuff.
[45:09.790 --> 45:13.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we've had a tour of fax machines in the Los Angeles area, in the Lompoc area.
[45:13.770 --> 45:14.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: That was kind of amusing.
[45:15.640 --> 45:20.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, wind up going to a hotel and, oh, look, you know, 40 pages worth of facsimile.
[45:20.480 --> 45:22.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because we have to have all the things faxed to us.
[45:24.360 --> 45:31.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, we've had a busy couple of weeks here, and it sure would have been nice if we were on the air to talk about it as it was happening, but it's still happening.
[45:31.600 --> 45:33.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do we have any court dates to worry about?
[45:34.740 --> 45:35.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not yet.
[45:35.680 --> 45:37.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: There will be one soon.
[45:37.800 --> 45:38.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[45:39.600 --> 45:44.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Where, when they tried to stop us from linking, they actually amended the original complaint.
[45:44.400 --> 45:44.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[45:44.840 --> 45:50.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we have something like 20 days to respond to that, and then there will be a hearing.
[45:50.720 --> 45:52.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: And eventually there will be a trial.
[45:52.300 --> 45:57.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this will be going on for the foreseeable future for many years, probably.
[45:58.270 --> 46:02.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, it's replaced Kevin Mitnick as the number one story here on this show.
[46:02.770 --> 46:04.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be focusing on this until it's over.
[46:05.240 --> 46:07.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because this poses a very real threat to all of us.
[46:07.860 --> 46:09.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Remember what they did to Satellite Watch News.
[46:09.860 --> 46:13.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: There was a civil lawsuit filed against Satellite Watch News by DirecTV.
[46:14.400 --> 46:16.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they put them out of business.
[46:16.200 --> 46:17.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: They won a case for $300,000.
[46:18.420 --> 46:26.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: In our case, what they want is, I think the number mentioned was $2,500 for every time somebody accesses the, uh, one of the files.
[46:26.560 --> 46:27.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: I actually have the...
[46:27.320 --> 46:29.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: For every act of circumvention.
[46:29.360 --> 46:31.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I have the actual statute here in front of me.
[46:31.860 --> 46:33.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, you're both talking at the same time.
[46:33.240 --> 46:33.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Say that again.
[46:33.700 --> 46:36.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have the actual statute in front of me, what the, uh, what the penalties are.
[46:36.720 --> 46:37.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: The civil penalties.
[46:38.040 --> 46:38.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[46:38.320 --> 46:41.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: It says, uh, it didn't, it didn't, uh, let's see, here we go.
[46:42.120 --> 46:43.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, 17-year-old damages.
[46:43.960 --> 47:02.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: At any time before final judgment is entered, a complaining party may elect to recover an award of statutory damages for each violation of Section 1201 in a sum of not less than $200 nor more than $2,500 per act of circumvention, device, product, component,
[47:02.980 --> 47:06.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: offer, or performance of service as the court considers just.
[47:07.120 --> 47:12.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, that could be interpreted into everybody who downloaded this, uh, particular code, no?
[47:12.620 --> 47:13.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, sure.
[47:13.400 --> 47:22.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, from, from what I've read of the transcript so far, this judge is capable of interpreting things in many different ways as far as, as far as interpreting the law.
[47:22.560 --> 47:23.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't know.
[47:23.660 --> 47:24.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was just reading this thing through.
[47:25.400 --> 47:27.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, Barney, you got a hold of the transcript.
[47:27.540 --> 47:27.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh...
[47:27.700 --> 47:32.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I actually, uh, was able to get it from the, uh, federal, federal court in, uh, Southern District of New York.
[47:32.200 --> 47:32.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: People should, uh...
[47:32.940 --> 47:35.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mackie, is that, is that transcript up on the 2600 website now?
[47:35.880 --> 47:36.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, it is.
[47:36.140 --> 47:38.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, people should read this transcript.
[47:38.240 --> 47:39.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's about 90 pages long.
[47:39.560 --> 47:44.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: This hearing, which I went up to, to listen to, um, took over three hours.
[47:44.600 --> 47:45.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it's, it's very telling.
[47:45.980 --> 48:02.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you, if you read this transcript up on, uh, 2600.com, you can see how biased this judge is towards, uh, these five attorneys from the motion picture industry who were there to, uh, to, uh, to basically, uh, bludgeon, uh, Emmanuel and, uh, and the other defendants in this case with,
[48:02.220 --> 48:04.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: uh, with, with legal firepower.
[48:04.880 --> 48:09.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and, uh, it, it's very clear that this judge is, uh, is not being impartial.
[48:09.860 --> 48:11.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, it's pretty scary.
[48:11.240 --> 48:18.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, uh, I should also, I should also point out, Bernie, there, I, I've, I've been in touch with somebody who was there in the, in the chambers where the conference call is taking place.
[48:18.900 --> 48:21.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Keep in mind, the lawyers for our side were in California.
[48:21.740 --> 48:23.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: They had just had a hearing two days earlier.
[48:23.860 --> 48:25.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: They were completely unprepared for this.
[48:25.700 --> 48:30.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that has something to do with the timing because, you know, they, they devoted all their attention to the hearing in California.
[48:30.680 --> 48:35.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: And all of a sudden this was, was hit, you know, kind of sudden, uh, which was intentional.
[48:35.820 --> 48:36.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was intentional.
[48:36.500 --> 48:37.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm, I'm, I'm almost certain of that.
[48:38.270 --> 48:44.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, so they were in the chambers, all the lawyers for the, uh, for the plaintiffs, for the motion picture agency, they, they were there.
[48:44.580 --> 48:48.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and the lawyers for our side were in California on the speakerphone.
[48:48.290 --> 49:02.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the person I was in touch with said that there was all kinds of, you know, body language and, like, you know, smiles and winks and things like that between the judge and the lawyers that made it clear that they thought of the people on the other side of the phone as the opposition,
[49:02.270 --> 49:05.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: as people don't know what they're talking about, as, you know, the other side.
[49:06.000 --> 49:08.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that's something to be really worried about.
[49:08.660 --> 49:15.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: As Jack Valenti said, as activists who had been seduced by the hackers' bizarre ideology.
[49:17.560 --> 49:22.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, how about we have our listeners give us a call, tell us how bizarre our ideology is.
[49:22.440 --> 49:24.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're at 212-209-2900.
[49:24.640 --> 49:30.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have some time for phone calls, and we'd like to hear your take on this and any other things that might be going on.
[49:30.770 --> 49:42.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I'll tell you, folks, it's scary, it really is, to be one day inside a prison, visiting somebody, and then literally, as soon as you get out, being told that, hey, you could be next, just because of something that you didn't even do on the website,
[49:42.720 --> 49:42.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: you know?
[49:42.880 --> 49:45.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we had nothing to do with decrypting this nonsense.
[49:45.220 --> 49:46.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: We should not take credit for that.
[49:46.540 --> 49:50.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's somebody with, you know, a whole lot more intelligence that was able to figure this out.
[49:51.420 --> 49:56.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we're the enemy simply because we support the right to put it up on the net.
[49:57.160 --> 49:58.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a scary world today.
[50:00.180 --> 50:01.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take some phone calls.
[50:01.240 --> 50:03.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-209-2900.
[50:03.800 --> 50:04.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[50:04.480 --> 50:04.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're on the air.
[50:06.400 --> 50:07.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Speak up, please.
[50:07.680 --> 50:08.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[50:08.640 --> 50:09.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead.
[50:09.900 --> 50:10.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi.
[50:10.790 --> 50:11.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: My name is Angela.
[50:11.790 --> 50:12.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm calling from Manhattan.
[50:13.180 --> 50:13.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[50:13.580 --> 50:30.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to express my support for what you were doing and say that, as a law student, I wanted to publicize the lawsuit at my school, which is Cardozo.
[50:30.900 --> 50:43.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: So we've got a lot of intellectual property attorneys in training, but there are also some people who understand how important, actually, your rights are.
[50:44.140 --> 50:47.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that I would like to help with that.
[50:47.270 --> 50:47.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's great.
[50:48.020 --> 50:48.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: I really appreciate that.
[50:49.680 --> 50:56.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: The best way to get in touch with us if you want to help is to write to us at the radio show, OTH at 2600.com.
[50:56.640 --> 51:05.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've gotten a lot of offers of support from people in the legal world as well, but if there are people out there that want to also help, we definitely welcome their participation.
[51:06.340 --> 51:06.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Great.
[51:06.840 --> 51:07.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[51:07.240 --> 51:08.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks very much for your support.
[51:08.270 --> 51:08.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.
[51:09.400 --> 51:10.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, you don't...
[51:10.620 --> 51:11.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Ooh, that was interesting.
[51:11.880 --> 51:16.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: You don't have to be a lawyer to actually be able to read through this law.
[51:17.120 --> 51:25.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Go over to www.law.cornell.edu and look up Title 17, U.S.C.
[51:25.360 --> 51:27.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: sections 1201 through 1205.
[51:27.520 --> 51:29.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's basically what we're dealing with.
[51:29.440 --> 51:32.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: It was known as the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[51:32.400 --> 51:32.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, boy.
[51:33.080 --> 51:35.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a pretty scary act right there.
[51:35.140 --> 51:41.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: And for further reading, look at 512, Section 512 with the same title to get an idea...
[51:41.160 --> 51:48.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's 512, to get an idea of where Romans stands so far as being an Internet service provider.
[51:48.340 --> 51:55.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: We knew that this law, Digital Millennium, would eventually be challenged because it's just so incredibly insane.
[51:55.200 --> 51:59.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: We did not know that we would be the ones challenging it.
[51:59.180 --> 52:00.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, I'll tell you this.
[52:00.600 --> 52:02.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm honored to be on the front lines.
[52:02.420 --> 52:03.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: I really am.
[52:03.000 --> 52:08.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's something that we intend to stay with until the end, until we win one way or another.
[52:08.520 --> 52:14.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I think it's kind of appropriate that we be saying this on today, February 1st, which is the...
[52:14.060 --> 52:24.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if people know this, the 40th anniversary of the Greensboro Boycott, where people sat down at a lunch counter and refused to move until they were served because of the color of their skin.
[52:24.880 --> 52:30.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's something that takes a lot more guts, I think, because you're putting your personal cells in the line of danger.
[52:31.340 --> 52:35.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: But from what I'm told, this could very well end up with people being imprisoned as well.
[52:35.400 --> 52:48.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, in fact, the kid in Norway, we should mention this as well, the kid in Norway who initially posted the ECSS code to the net and was thought by some to be the author, although I'm told now that he's not the author of the actual code.
[52:48.720 --> 52:58.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: But he was actually arrested a few days ago with his father, and they are charged with, I guess, a Norwegian equivalent of the Digital Millennium Act.
[52:59.140 --> 53:02.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Which is actually under criminal statute.
[53:02.720 --> 53:03.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[53:03.120 --> 53:04.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, it's not just civil.
[53:05.120 --> 53:13.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: It could turn criminal at any moment in this country as well because there are criminal remedies, as they put them, for the Digital Millennium Act as well as civil.
[53:13.740 --> 53:16.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, it's something really to be keeping an eye out for.
[53:17.060 --> 53:25.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: A million, 500,000, let's see, shall be fined, not more than $500,000 or imprisoned for not more than five years or both for the first offense.
[53:26.270 --> 53:31.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's great how they always say not more than, as if, you know, okay, let's not be too enthusiastic here.
[53:31.340 --> 53:32.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not more than that.
[53:32.240 --> 53:33.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have to protect their rights, after all.
[53:33.600 --> 53:42.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: And for the second offense, you shall not be fined more than $1 million nor imprisoned for not more than 10 years or both for any subsequent offense.
[53:42.920 --> 53:44.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it happens on the third offense.
[53:44.290 --> 53:44.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I really want.
[53:45.120 --> 53:46.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: They'll shoot you by firing squad.
[53:47.270 --> 53:48.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: And send you the bill for the bullet.
[53:48.790 --> 53:48.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[53:49.140 --> 53:50.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take another call.
[53:50.740 --> 53:51.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[53:51.420 --> 53:51.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're on Off the Hook.
[53:53.500 --> 53:54.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Speak up, please.
[53:54.960 --> 53:55.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, hi.
[53:55.500 --> 53:55.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[53:55.860 --> 53:59.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just wanted to call and mention that I believe the suit against E-Toy was dropped.
[54:00.220 --> 54:00.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[54:00.640 --> 54:01.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's correct.
[54:01.290 --> 54:02.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we should mention that.
[54:02.620 --> 54:07.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: E-Toy was victorious in their struggle against E-Toy's.
[54:07.880 --> 54:11.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think they have their sight back yet, although I believe they're getting their sight back.
[54:11.460 --> 54:11.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that right for you?
[54:11.790 --> 54:12.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: They've got their domain back.
[54:12.920 --> 54:13.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: They did get their domain back?
[54:14.040 --> 54:14.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[54:14.480 --> 54:16.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, because I've been trying to go to E-Toy.com.
[54:16.660 --> 54:18.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't been getting anything, so maybe they just haven't put it up yet.
[54:18.620 --> 54:22.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're still working on that, but they legally got their domain back.
[54:22.860 --> 54:23.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's great.
[54:23.540 --> 54:23.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's great.
[54:23.900 --> 54:27.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: We had the people from E-Toy on the air a few months ago.
[54:27.380 --> 54:29.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: You might want to check that show out on the net.
[54:31.120 --> 54:35.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's inspiring when someone is able to stand up against a huge corporation like that and win.
[54:35.200 --> 54:36.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: We should have them back on again, Emmanuel.
[54:37.040 --> 54:37.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: Definitely.
[54:37.420 --> 54:41.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: As sort of a post-coverage of what happened.
[54:41.540 --> 54:43.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that move will be a lot better.
[54:43.560 --> 54:47.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: I believe they also got something to the tune of $40,000 in legal fees.
[54:48.140 --> 54:57.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is a great example of how activism actually pushed a multi-billion dollar corporation back a few steps.
[54:58.600 --> 55:04.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: These were a lot of volunteers and activists who publicized this so much.
[55:04.520 --> 55:11.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: And in fact, Off the Hook was the first media outlet in the United States, I believe, to cover this in any depth.
[55:12.480 --> 55:19.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that snowballed from Off the Hook on, I think a few days later, at our National Public Radio and from then on.
[55:19.580 --> 55:32.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: But in any case, just all these volunteers and activists managed to push back a company worth many billions of dollars, eToys.com, into writing a wrong that they had done against a bunch of artists.
[55:33.040 --> 55:33.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[55:33.340 --> 55:34.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's people power.
[55:34.180 --> 55:36.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's one thing we seem to have on our side this time is people power.
[55:36.960 --> 55:40.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just a number of folks that are volunteering to help in whatever way possible.
[55:41.060 --> 55:46.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right now, the best thing you can do, the best thing you can do is get the word out by getting the flyer printed out.
[55:46.270 --> 55:50.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't have a computer, run down to a copy store, Kinko's, whatever, print it out there.
[55:50.360 --> 55:53.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Make several thousand copies because you will go through them.
[55:53.720 --> 55:58.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just hand them out outside theaters, outside video stores, or any place, bookstores, any place where there are people.
[55:58.790 --> 55:59.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Put them in your schools.
[56:00.100 --> 56:02.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just make sure people know what's going on.
[56:02.400 --> 56:04.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And believe me, the pressure will be felt.
[56:04.600 --> 56:05.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: It makes all the difference in the world.
[56:06.080 --> 56:07.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Are we ever going to get away from Kinko's?
[56:08.000 --> 56:09.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, it's just, I don't know.
[56:09.520 --> 56:11.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there another place that you can find?
[56:11.960 --> 56:13.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're going for a sponsorship here.
[56:13.320 --> 56:13.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[56:15.000 --> 56:16.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you're listening.
[56:17.540 --> 56:17.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[56:18.440 --> 56:18.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[56:18.860 --> 56:20.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-209-2900.
[56:20.220 --> 56:20.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take one more phone call.
[56:20.960 --> 56:21.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[56:21.270 --> 56:21.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're on the air.
[56:23.700 --> 56:24.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead.
[56:24.340 --> 56:24.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're on the air.
[56:25.060 --> 56:25.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[56:25.500 --> 56:25.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[56:26.240 --> 56:27.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have a nice little recommendation.
[56:28.040 --> 56:37.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: I recommend that everyone within the listening area take a trip to Indonesia where they can get any movie that came out within the last six months or so for the equivalent of five U.S.
[56:37.770 --> 56:38.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: dollars.
[56:38.340 --> 56:39.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that on DVD?
[56:39.820 --> 56:40.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[56:40.660 --> 56:40.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[56:41.120 --> 56:43.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll bet they did not use the DECSS.
[56:43.540 --> 56:44.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, they didn't have to.
[56:44.880 --> 56:45.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course not.
[56:45.240 --> 56:48.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they didn't because I was kind of skeptical.
[56:48.520 --> 56:58.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wasn't sure if they were going to work, but I got home and I'd say out of the eight movies that I got, six of them work on my, you know, I have a G3 laptop.
[56:58.300 --> 56:58.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[56:59.140 --> 56:59.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[56:59.620 --> 57:02.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, they don't have any region codes on those ones as well.
[57:02.860 --> 57:10.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, one of the things I was thinking, what would actually prove our case if we can show people that, look, it's possible to do this anyway.
[57:10.020 --> 57:12.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can copy DVDs as it is.
[57:12.480 --> 57:15.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're on sale every place and it's got nothing to do with this code.
[57:16.080 --> 57:16.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
[57:16.660 --> 57:27.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I've known about this since probably five or six years because I have some friends that live in Asia and they were always telling me, oh, you could get this for like five bucks, you know, or three bucks.
[57:27.860 --> 57:29.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: You could go to Hong Kong, wherever.
[57:30.790 --> 57:32.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, this is going on for like five years.
[57:32.660 --> 57:33.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've known of the fact.
[57:33.820 --> 57:43.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just like the first time I got the opportunity to be in Southeast Asia and actually purchased some DVDs and, you know, came back home and they worked.
[57:43.800 --> 57:49.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's interesting that Jack Valenti is not railing against the people who are actually pirating DVDs in Asia.
[57:50.440 --> 57:58.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: He's railing against hackers who want to give people the right to view movies that they purchased on the computer platform of their choice.
[57:58.320 --> 58:15.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, they've never really given any type of justification for why in any sense it would be practical to decrypt the DVD before pirating it because all those ones being made in Asia and stuff are being pressed.
[58:15.270 --> 58:17.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're not using consumer burners.
[58:17.960 --> 58:20.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're not even decrypting it.
[58:20.560 --> 58:22.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're just doing a bit-for-bit copy.
[58:24.320 --> 58:39.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the only reason why you might possibly want to decrypt the content before distributing it is if you're, say, on the Internet and you wanted to make it a much smaller file, you could convert it to something that's a third of the quality.
[58:40.660 --> 58:53.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if you're going to do that, you can already do that with what comes with your DVD drive by just outputting it, doing the normal, you know, television out jacks, and recapture it.
[58:53.440 --> 58:59.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's as Isaac said that it's not so much about copying as it is about control.
[58:59.520 --> 59:06.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, well, so far as why they're pursuing this here in the States and not going across Asia is because they're not really interested in getting people in jail.
[59:06.540 --> 59:08.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think they're much more interested in setting precedent law.
[59:08.840 --> 59:09.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[59:09.100 --> 59:11.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they may wind up doing that not quite the way they want.
[59:11.840 --> 59:20.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, all of a sudden they get the case found in their favor and then years down the road, you know, we're, we're out of time, but we just want to one more time, uh, tell people what we're doing in the next few days.
[59:21.180 --> 59:32.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, if you go to Linux Expo, which is taking place at the Javits Center, uh, tomorrow, Thursday and Friday, we'll be there in the 2600 van handing out leaflets, getting more people on board to help us out.
[59:32.660 --> 59:45.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, please show up there on Friday, every 2600 meeting, every place in the world will be, uh, handing out these, uh, or, or gathering to hand out these leaflets at movie theaters, video stores, any other place you can think of.
[59:45.920 --> 59:58.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you're part of a 2600 meeting, any place, please download the, um, uh, the flyer, which is on the website, 2600.com, um, in many different formats and you can download it, print it out, make lots of copies.
[59:58.500 --> 59:59.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: You will go through them.
[59:59.500 --> 01:00:05.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Make sure you bring, um, uh, copies to hand out to people to make copies themselves because a lot of people will want to join you as well.
[01:00:05.840 --> 01:00:12.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, Bernie, do you have, uh, Kevin Mitnick's address one more time so people can send him CDs, movies, books, whatever it is they want to send them.
[01:00:12.220 --> 01:00:14.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: He may have missed out on in the five years he was in jail.
[01:00:14.300 --> 01:00:14.300]  Sure.
[01:00:14.440 --> 01:00:23.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Again, that's, uh, Kevin Mitnick at 2-2-1-9 East Thousand Oaks Boulevard, number 4-3-2.
[01:00:23.960 --> 01:00:29.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's in Thousand Oaks, California, 9-1-3-6-2.
[01:00:30.300 --> 01:00:30.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:00:30.790 --> 01:00:34.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: I want to thank you very much, Bernie, for, uh, being part of the show and, uh, showing support.
[01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:37.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, and thanks for, uh, for being on tonight.
[01:00:37.680 --> 01:00:40.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, Mackie, thanks for being with us, too, from California and Isaac.
[01:00:40.860 --> 01:00:41.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: My pleasure.
[01:00:41.300 --> 01:00:42.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Happy Groundhog Day.
[01:00:42.270 --> 01:00:42.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[01:00:42.640 --> 01:00:43.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Happy Groundhog Day tomorrow.
[01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:47.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, we'll be back again next week, hopefully, unless they throw us in prison.
[01:00:48.020 --> 01:00:50.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, uh, well, just keep your eye on the website.
[01:00:52.020 --> 01:00:53.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Until, uh, next week, Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:00:53.580 --> 01:00:53.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good night.
[01:01:40.770 --> 01:01:42.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: The prison system is out of control.
[01:01:43.050 --> 01:01:45.170]  [SPEAKER_00]: And you have a loved one caught in the struggle.
[01:01:45.990 --> 01:01:47.230]  [SPEAKER_00]: Suddenly, you're in it, too.
[01:01:48.410 --> 01:01:52.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you're depressed and frustrated because you miss them and you love them.
[01:01:52.230 --> 01:01:53.790]  [SPEAKER_00]: And you've done everything you could.
[01:01:54.410 --> 01:01:57.910]  [SPEAKER_00]: Other times, you're angry and resentful because you can't do anymore.
[01:01:58.530 --> 01:01:59.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, now you can.
[01:02:00.190 --> 01:02:06.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: Send a message or a shout-out over the airwaves with WBAI's new service dedicated to prisoners and their families.
[01:02:06.890 --> 01:02:10.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: Let them know you're thinking of them, wherever the system takes them.
[01:02:11.290 --> 01:02:16.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: Just that little bit of encouragement and love will mean so much in the monotony of doing time.
[01:02:17.590 --> 01:02:24.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: Call 212-209-2958 and stay tuned for the exact times of the broadcast.