Off The Hook - 2000-02-22
[00:14.500 --> 00:16.280]  I'm alive.
[00:18.120 --> 00:22.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's alright.
[00:23.460 --> 00:27.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Power to the me, power to speak.
[00:27.760 --> 00:34.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have power to the shy and hold on our shoes.
[00:35.290 --> 00:39.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, power to me, power to you.
[00:39.210 --> 00:43.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, bless this hand, bless this hand.
[00:43.650 --> 00:47.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bless me to the die in my finger, man.
[00:47.410 --> 00:51.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, bless this day, bless this night.
[00:51.770 --> 00:55.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Give me something good, make me feel alright.
[01:07.280 --> 01:11.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: General Electric and NBC, $48 billion.
[01:12.160 --> 01:16.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Chancellor Media and Clear Channel Incorporated, $24 billion.
[01:17.380 --> 01:20.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: CBS and Viacom, $80 billion.
[01:21.440 --> 01:23.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: WBAI and its listeners?
[01:23.660 --> 01:24.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Priceless.
[01:24.860 --> 01:34.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: So please, honor your pledge and send it soon to Post Office Box 11445, Church Street Station, New York, 10277.
[01:35.160 --> 01:41.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because some things are just too precious to lose, like non-commercial WBAI.
[01:42.100 --> 01:45.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: For everything else, there's the corporate media.
[01:52.610 --> 01:57.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: And tune your radios very tightly to 99.5 FM so the corporate media does not bleed through.
[01:58.270 --> 02:03.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's 8 o'clock and time, once again, for Off the Hook.
[02:09.700 --> 02:14.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[02:15.260 --> 02:19.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[02:20.640 --> 02:25.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[02:25.560 --> 02:28.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bum, dilly, bum, but the best, expect the worst.
[02:28.820 --> 02:30.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope that's understood.
[02:31.080 --> 02:31.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bum, dilly, bum!
[04:00.970 --> 04:02.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[04:02.230 --> 04:03.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: The program is Off the Hook.
[04:03.170 --> 04:04.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[04:05.170 --> 04:06.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Isaac over there on the other side of the room.
[04:06.710 --> 04:07.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: How you doing, sir?
[04:07.430 --> 04:08.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bernie S down in Philadelphia.
[04:10.310 --> 04:11.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bernie S down in Philadelphia.
[04:12.870 --> 04:13.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-oh.
[04:13.430 --> 04:14.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're missing your cue.
[04:14.930 --> 04:15.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Marnie, you there?
[04:16.890 --> 04:18.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, this is typical.
[04:19.110 --> 04:22.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is the kind of week I've had, where there are...
[04:22.410 --> 04:23.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do you put it?
[04:23.930 --> 04:25.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: You've got to put it kind of mildly here.
[04:26.490 --> 04:27.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Phone problems.
[04:27.450 --> 04:30.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: It doesn't do it justice.
[04:30.690 --> 04:31.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: It really doesn't.
[04:31.790 --> 04:32.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: He's really not there, is he?
[04:34.190 --> 04:34.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, he's gone.
[04:35.430 --> 04:37.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, actually, let me do a little troubleshooting here.
[04:37.950 --> 04:39.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've been doing this all week, too.
[04:40.250 --> 04:42.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's see if we have any signal on the phone line.
[04:45.090 --> 04:45.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[04:45.610 --> 04:46.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's a dial tone.
[04:46.190 --> 04:48.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's a dial tone, so we are getting a signal on the phone.
[04:49.450 --> 04:52.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's a different line, but there doesn't seem to be Bernie S.
[04:52.170 --> 04:52.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: on this line.
[04:53.270 --> 04:56.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's turn down the music in case the music is interfering with him for some reason.
[04:57.090 --> 04:57.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, guys, stop.
[04:58.110 --> 04:58.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[04:59.490 --> 05:00.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bernie, are you there?
[05:00.730 --> 05:01.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Everybody be quiet, please.
[05:01.570 --> 05:02.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bernie, are you there?
[05:05.580 --> 05:10.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, now I'm going to hit a tone in case that might wake him up, because sometimes...
[05:10.100 --> 05:12.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: You ever see someone fall asleep on a cellular phone?
[05:12.160 --> 05:13.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, it's frightening.
[05:13.700 --> 05:14.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, listen.
[05:15.380 --> 05:16.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, oh, oh, oh!
[05:16.820 --> 05:22.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, apparently what I've done by doing that is I've jostled the system into some kind of state of alarm.
[05:24.420 --> 05:25.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know how to get rid of this.
[05:26.700 --> 05:27.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: We might have to...
[05:27.520 --> 05:28.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: I suggest hanging up.
[05:29.380 --> 05:30.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, that wouldn't be right.
[05:30.220 --> 05:31.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: We might have to listen to this for the whole rest of the show.
[05:32.600 --> 05:32.900]  Oh, no.
[05:32.900 --> 05:34.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Actually, you know, this is fine.
[05:35.120 --> 05:35.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: I...
[05:35.500 --> 05:36.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is perfect.
[05:36.680 --> 05:38.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because this is the rate of my pulse right now.
[05:39.040 --> 05:39.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right?
[05:39.560 --> 05:45.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: And this is the kind of week I've had having to deal with, you know, phone nonsense and...
[05:46.420 --> 05:47.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, this works, too.
[05:47.720 --> 05:48.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: This works, too.
[05:48.800 --> 05:49.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right?
[05:49.320 --> 05:49.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[05:49.580 --> 05:52.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: Ear-pitching, ear-piecing, screeching noises.
[05:53.460 --> 05:54.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, no problem.
[05:54.740 --> 05:55.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: No problem at all.
[05:58.260 --> 05:59.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: Living hell.
[05:59.400 --> 05:59.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right?
[05:59.840 --> 06:00.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Can you say living hell?
[06:00.720 --> 06:01.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: Living hell.
[06:01.640 --> 06:02.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's what I've been through.
[06:02.980 --> 06:04.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's what a lot of us have been through.
[06:05.440 --> 06:05.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well...
[06:05.880 --> 06:07.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know if we have a website tonight.
[06:07.840 --> 06:08.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right?
[06:08.240 --> 06:12.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's not because of, you know, 13-year-old hackers from Iowa attacking us.
[06:12.660 --> 06:14.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, I've been hearing about these hacker guys.
[06:14.040 --> 06:14.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[06:14.440 --> 06:14.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: Look at this.
[06:14.940 --> 06:15.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Look at this headline.
[06:15.840 --> 06:19.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hackers, attack more websites from the San Jose Mercury News.
[06:19.720 --> 06:21.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Or wait, no, this is just the Mercury.
[06:21.280 --> 06:21.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's the Mercury?
[06:22.100 --> 06:23.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't even know where these papers come from.
[06:25.960 --> 06:30.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's so full of self-importance that it assumes that we know what the Mercury is.
[06:30.500 --> 06:34.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's just the Mercury on February 10th.
[06:34.040 --> 06:42.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have no clue where this paper is from, because they just print all the same stories that every other paper in the country prints.
[06:42.200 --> 06:45.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: And all the ads have 800 numbers, so there's no real...
[06:45.760 --> 06:46.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[06:46.460 --> 06:46.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Clue.
[06:46.880 --> 06:49.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: The Mercury is in Pottstown, Pennsylvania.
[06:49.980 --> 06:50.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: Pottstown?
[06:50.380 --> 06:52.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't even know what Pottstown is.
[06:52.360 --> 06:53.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's a Pottstown?
[06:54.000 --> 06:55.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is it anywhere near Punxsutawney?
[06:55.760 --> 06:56.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know.
[06:56.420 --> 07:01.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: But anyway, here's this picture of Janet Reno and hackers attack more websites.
[07:03.700 --> 07:06.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Basically, more justification for crackdowns.
[07:06.900 --> 07:13.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: But anyway, I'm not sure about our website tonight, because we've had such trouble with connectivity in the past week.
[07:14.020 --> 07:17.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I gotta tell you, I've been frustrated before with things.
[07:18.000 --> 07:19.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've been incredibly frustrated.
[07:19.540 --> 07:20.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: But this is...
[07:21.660 --> 07:22.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: Very frustrating?
[07:22.380 --> 07:23.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: This has been incredibly frustrating.
[07:23.800 --> 07:24.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: I really should get Bernie S.
[07:24.860 --> 07:25.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: back on here.
[07:25.640 --> 07:26.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's a good idea.
[07:26.780 --> 07:27.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is...
[07:27.140 --> 07:28.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bernie, are you there?
[07:28.100 --> 07:28.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Of course he's not there.
[07:29.020 --> 07:29.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, he's not?
[07:29.180 --> 07:30.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, we hung up on him.
[07:30.160 --> 07:32.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Unless he was an ear-preaching squeal.
[07:33.260 --> 07:33.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[07:33.340 --> 07:34.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Alright, so I gotta disconnect that.
[07:35.100 --> 07:36.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Then I gotta do this.
[07:37.140 --> 07:37.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Magic open.
[07:37.920 --> 07:38.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: Alright.
[07:39.000 --> 07:40.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: Then I gotta dial his number off air.
[07:41.740 --> 07:45.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: So that people over the world don't get his number.
[07:46.040 --> 07:48.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Then I gotta enter the secret code once I get the tone.
[07:49.120 --> 07:49.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's the tone.
[07:50.060 --> 07:50.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's the tone.
[07:50.080 --> 07:51.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now I get into the secret code.
[07:52.280 --> 07:53.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: And wait for the phone to ring.
[07:54.080 --> 07:54.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, that was fast, actually.
[07:55.100 --> 07:55.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: Very fast.
[07:57.880 --> 07:59.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's see what happened to Bernie.
[08:00.980 --> 08:01.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[08:01.840 --> 08:02.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: What was that, Bernie?
[08:03.020 --> 08:04.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: It sounds like...
[08:04.040 --> 08:04.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: That was actually very interesting.
[08:05.200 --> 08:06.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're in some kind of echo chamber.
[08:06.540 --> 08:11.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I was listening to Off the Hook on the radio here in Philadelphia.
[08:11.400 --> 08:13.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Ah, you have some special hookup that allows you to...
[08:13.900 --> 08:15.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have a very good radio in Philadelphia.
[08:16.100 --> 08:16.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Alright, well.
[08:17.520 --> 08:17.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's good.
[08:18.120 --> 08:20.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: This week has been a living hell also here.
[08:20.340 --> 08:21.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: We just apparently...
[08:21.440 --> 08:22.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, so you heard everything I said.
[08:23.200 --> 08:24.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: But what happened to you on the phone, though?
[08:25.420 --> 08:28.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Apparently it was a courtesy disconnect.
[08:28.480 --> 08:29.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, one of the Sprint things.
[08:30.080 --> 08:31.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: By Sprint PCS, right.
[08:31.800 --> 08:33.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: Where you have a five bar signal and you get bumped anyway.
[08:34.100 --> 08:34.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[08:34.700 --> 08:34.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[08:35.620 --> 08:36.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, okay.
[08:36.300 --> 08:37.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let me tell my horror story.
[08:37.740 --> 08:40.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if you have a horror story, or if anybody else has a horror story, we can get into that.
[08:40.880 --> 08:45.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: But basically, we made the magical switch to DSL.
[08:47.280 --> 08:49.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: I can't think of anybody on this planet.
[08:49.460 --> 08:51.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: And there's a lot of people I don't get along with.
[08:51.320 --> 08:54.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I can't think of anybody on this planet that I would wish this on.
[08:54.960 --> 08:55.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: Alright.
[08:55.600 --> 08:56.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'm talking about, you know...
[08:56.740 --> 08:57.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: I have a sense of an accept.
[08:57.620 --> 09:00.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm talking about foreign leaders that engage in genocide and things like that.
[09:00.860 --> 09:04.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, I'm all for all kinds of horrible things happening to them.
[09:04.300 --> 09:06.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: But DSL, that's like inhuman.
[09:07.780 --> 09:09.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: Especially DSL through Bell Atlantic.
[09:09.520 --> 09:11.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, keep in mind, I'm not getting DSL through Bell Atlantic.
[09:12.080 --> 09:16.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: But you have no choice but to go through Bell Atlantic to get the local loop installed.
[09:16.840 --> 09:18.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, they have the actual copper that runs from...
[09:18.880 --> 09:22.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, the actual copper or paper or string or whatever it is that they use.
[09:22.460 --> 09:22.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay?
[09:22.900 --> 09:23.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: I can tell you this.
[09:23.780 --> 09:25.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: It doesn't work, whatever it is.
[09:25.220 --> 09:25.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[09:25.540 --> 09:26.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, we've got a DSL...
[09:26.640 --> 09:30.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: First of all, if you listen to the advertisements, what do they say about DSL?
[09:30.080 --> 09:30.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's always there.
[09:30.820 --> 09:31.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: It never goes down.
[09:31.920 --> 09:33.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: DSL is the most consistent thing.
[09:33.500 --> 09:36.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think the catchphrase is always connected.
[09:37.120 --> 09:38.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Always connected.
[09:38.300 --> 09:38.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[09:39.340 --> 09:45.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, there's a word that describes that, and I can't say it on the air, but I think you all know what it is, because it's not true.
[09:46.180 --> 09:47.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've been down more than we've been up.
[09:48.700 --> 09:51.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's the most shoddy service I've ever seen.
[09:53.420 --> 09:54.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's...
[09:54.340 --> 09:56.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: I can say this without fear of contradiction.
[09:56.500 --> 10:02.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: It is all Bell Atlantic's fault, because they are the ones responsible for getting the wire to the facility.
[10:02.740 --> 10:05.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they have completely shirked the responsibility of doing that.
[10:06.200 --> 10:09.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: There are several companies that you have to deal with when you get DSL.
[10:09.200 --> 10:11.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: You get a local provider.
[10:11.260 --> 10:14.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: You get the DSL company, I guess is what they call it.
[10:14.160 --> 10:18.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: In our case, it's Network Access Solutions or something like that, NAS, down in Virginia.
[10:18.940 --> 10:19.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: COVID is another one.
[10:21.060 --> 10:23.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: And those are the people that actually have to troubleshoot things.
[10:23.520 --> 10:24.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: They've been great.
[10:24.360 --> 10:32.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: They've come over so many times to troubleshoot the various routers and figure out what the problem is, go into the CO and figure out what's going on there.
[10:33.000 --> 10:34.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: Go down to Virginia, figure things out from that end.
[10:35.400 --> 10:39.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: So it's basically been narrowed down to the stretch of copper from the CO to your house?
[10:39.380 --> 10:43.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, if you had a sense of...
[10:43.100 --> 10:47.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you took a look at the wiring, the wiring out on the island is atrocious.
[10:47.300 --> 10:48.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, well, I'm not...
[10:48.100 --> 10:48.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: Don't get me started.
[10:48.720 --> 10:50.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: They have it tacked to trees.
[10:50.600 --> 10:52.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: They have it running on the ground.
[10:52.720 --> 10:55.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: They have it, you know, practically going down the street.
[10:56.040 --> 11:03.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, and we've talked about this before, where phone lines come into your house that don't belong to you.
[11:03.820 --> 11:04.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's called a bridge tap.
[11:05.080 --> 11:10.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: A bridge tap is when they run wires into other places because they just feel like it.
[11:10.680 --> 11:11.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know what the reason is.
[11:11.640 --> 11:14.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm not, you know, that much of a telephone person.
[11:15.040 --> 11:16.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: I know why this has to happen.
[11:16.580 --> 11:18.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: But there are many occasions, and you might want to try this.
[11:18.420 --> 11:23.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you have a spare jacket home, plug in your phone, and sometimes you'll get a dial tone that belongs to somebody else.
[11:23.220 --> 11:31.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you can have hours of fun taking that person's calls or, you know, having them answer the phone when you ring it and various things like that.
[11:31.240 --> 11:37.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've had various guests, I call them, that just stop by the house sometimes when a line becomes free.
[11:38.200 --> 11:40.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I think that's what they've done with our DSL line.
[11:40.860 --> 11:42.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: They've made it pop up in all kinds of places.
[11:42.940 --> 11:46.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the reason why I say this is because it's so consistent.
[11:46.600 --> 11:50.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: Every day we get all these CRC errors, constant CRC errors.
[11:51.040 --> 11:52.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: You cannot keep a connection up.
[11:52.700 --> 11:55.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: So we go down all day long from, say, 7 a.m.
[11:55.500 --> 11:56.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: until about 7 p.m.
[11:56.980 --> 12:02.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder, Emmanuel, do you think any of these bridge caps could be left over from previous wire caps?
[12:03.540 --> 12:04.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, I'm sure.
[12:04.840 --> 12:06.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm sure there's...
[12:06.120 --> 12:07.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, put it this way.
[12:07.820 --> 12:13.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: When they measured us for DSL, they said we were 16,000 feet away from the CO.
[12:13.940 --> 12:15.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Isn't that just the limit of...
[12:15.000 --> 12:16.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, 18,000 is the limit.
[12:16.200 --> 12:16.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: 18,000 is the limit?
[12:16.780 --> 12:16.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[12:17.400 --> 12:20.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, they say that we're 22,000 feet away.
[12:20.940 --> 12:21.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Which is more than...
[12:21.920 --> 12:23.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Which means that they decided to...
[12:23.300 --> 12:27.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, if you walk to the CO, we're two miles away, which is something like...
[12:27.340 --> 12:27.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: What?
[12:27.780 --> 12:28.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: How many feet is that?
[12:30.220 --> 12:31.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: Say 10,000.
[12:31.080 --> 12:31.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[12:31.740 --> 12:32.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Around there.
[12:32.420 --> 12:35.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, someone's running wires all over town with this thing.
[12:36.120 --> 12:36.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's a real...
[12:36.880 --> 12:37.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's a real mess.
[12:38.060 --> 12:38.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's, of course...
[12:38.480 --> 12:41.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: You've probably got five or six federal agencies patting your lines right now.
[12:41.460 --> 12:47.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: If they could just share the data, they don't have to all go to their own little, you know, offices, whatever they have out there.
[12:47.980 --> 12:49.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: But it's...
[12:49.580 --> 12:52.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: The thing is, during the day, it goes down.
[12:52.400 --> 12:53.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: At night, it comes up.
[12:53.480 --> 12:55.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because at night, the phone lines aren't in use.
[12:55.660 --> 12:56.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: The daytime they are.
[12:56.520 --> 12:57.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's crosstalk.
[12:57.020 --> 12:58.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Obviously, it's crosstalk.
[12:58.380 --> 13:02.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: But to get Bell Atlantic to admit it's crosstalk is pulling teeth, literally.
[13:02.680 --> 13:06.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: We had an appointment set up today with all the vendors were going to get together and figure this thing out.
[13:06.880 --> 13:08.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bell Atlantic canceled at the last minute.
[13:08.680 --> 13:09.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Just canceled.
[13:09.400 --> 13:09.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're not going to come.
[13:11.460 --> 13:13.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, there is no way to get through these people.
[13:14.000 --> 13:16.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: I tried to file complaints with the Public Service Commission.
[13:17.120 --> 13:19.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: The Public Service Commission says, we don't handle DSL.
[13:19.380 --> 13:21.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's handled through the Federal Communications Commission.
[13:21.560 --> 13:22.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, great.
[13:22.000 --> 13:24.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: We handle ISDM, but we don't handle DSL.
[13:24.220 --> 13:27.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, I called the FCC, and they said, no, we don't handle DSL either.
[13:28.040 --> 13:29.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's not regulated.
[13:30.180 --> 13:30.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: I said, so long.
[13:31.020 --> 13:32.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, that means...
[13:32.200 --> 13:36.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're saying that means that Bell Atlantic can do anything they want and they don't answer to anybody.
[13:36.820 --> 13:37.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's exactly it.
[13:38.140 --> 13:39.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: We don't have to care.
[13:39.060 --> 13:39.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[13:39.400 --> 13:41.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: They can do whatever they want.
[13:42.040 --> 13:56.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, folks, if you've had trouble reaching us, if you haven't gotten your message to go through on one of our mailing lists, if you haven't gotten email going through if things are bouncing, it's because Bell Atlantic has, as far as I'm concerned, vandalized our lines because they basically cut things,
[13:56.840 --> 14:02.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: they wire them like morons, and they refuse to fix them.
[14:02.320 --> 14:03.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I don't know what we can do at this point.
[14:04.100 --> 14:04.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: I really don't know.
[14:05.160 --> 14:10.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Have you asked Bell Atlantic to bring out a TDR, or Time Domain Reflectometer?
[14:10.380 --> 14:12.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do you ask Bell Atlantic something?
[14:12.380 --> 14:13.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do you speak to them?
[14:13.600 --> 14:14.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's like speaking to the Wizard of Oz.
[14:14.960 --> 14:15.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do you find them?
[14:15.960 --> 14:16.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Where are they?
[14:17.360 --> 14:18.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Nobody represents them.
[14:18.720 --> 14:20.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you can actually speak to a technician.
[14:20.480 --> 14:22.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've done that several times.
[14:22.220 --> 14:22.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[14:22.420 --> 14:22.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's great.
[14:22.900 --> 14:24.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good luck if you can find a technician.
[14:24.600 --> 14:28.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, you know, they don't take calls from mere customers.
[14:28.340 --> 14:28.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know that.
[14:29.980 --> 14:30.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've done it.
[14:30.840 --> 14:31.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[14:31.160 --> 14:34.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, you can persevere and figure out a way to get through to them eventually.
[14:34.940 --> 14:37.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: But it's an all-day process.
[14:37.780 --> 14:40.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we've been spending time on this now for a week.
[14:40.460 --> 14:40.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know?
[14:41.020 --> 14:42.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've got better things to do.
[14:43.620 --> 14:44.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, I don't know.
[14:44.840 --> 14:48.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: If anybody has suggestions out there, I can say email us.
[14:48.380 --> 14:48.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's kind of a joke.
[14:49.980 --> 14:50.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: But go ahead.
[14:50.980 --> 14:51.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Email us anyway.
[14:51.840 --> 14:56.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, if we go up tonight, then we'll get it later when all the other mail is piled through.
[14:56.760 --> 14:58.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: OTH at 2600.com.
[14:59.020 --> 15:02.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I'll tell you, this is the most frustrating experience I've ever had online.
[15:02.700 --> 15:06.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I can point back to the whole ISDN saga of three years ago.
[15:06.820 --> 15:09.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Where it took us, you know, many months to get ISDN.
[15:09.800 --> 15:13.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: But this, it took a year, first of all, to get the DSL loop put in.
[15:13.560 --> 15:17.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you'd think that once they did that, that they would have gotten it down.
[15:17.240 --> 15:18.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it worked fine, you know?
[15:18.260 --> 15:19.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: When we first got it put in, it worked fine.
[15:19.600 --> 15:21.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: And then some idiot did something to it.
[15:22.180 --> 15:23.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's been broken ever since.
[15:24.020 --> 15:27.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: And to get them to come out and actually look at it, it's impossible.
[15:28.240 --> 15:28.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's impossible.
[15:32.700 --> 15:34.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the technology has stabilized.
[15:34.420 --> 15:34.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's a shame, too.
[15:35.080 --> 15:39.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because, you know, there are a lot of companies out there that are offering it that are, you know, really doing a good job.
[15:39.820 --> 15:41.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: But Bell Atlantic is sabotaging the lines.
[15:41.840 --> 15:42.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: They cut lines.
[15:42.880 --> 15:44.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: They string them to places they shouldn't be stringing them to.
[15:44.960 --> 15:45.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they don't fix them.
[15:45.960 --> 15:47.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, what could be their motivation for this, though?
[15:47.620 --> 15:49.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, because you're not getting DSL from them.
[15:50.900 --> 15:51.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hmm.
[15:51.500 --> 15:53.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: They sell DSL as well, you see.
[15:53.500 --> 15:54.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's interesting.
[15:54.380 --> 15:57.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: I hear their feelings are somewhat hurt that you pick somebody else.
[15:57.580 --> 15:58.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is kind of...
[15:58.240 --> 15:59.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you know, it's not...
[15:59.240 --> 16:00.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm not making this up.
[16:00.240 --> 16:05.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've heard this from people and from companies all over the place that this is standard reaction for Bell.
[16:05.860 --> 16:10.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bell Atlantic just cut a line in the CO, you know, one day and take three days to fix it.
[16:11.180 --> 16:12.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's just the way it is.
[16:13.060 --> 16:13.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know?
[16:13.600 --> 16:27.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, if I had gone out, right, and I had done something to Yahoo's webpage or Bell Atlantic's webpage, right, and I'd taken them off the net for 15 minutes, I'd be hearing about, you know, all the lost profits and all the horrible things and people would be talking about prison time.
[16:27.700 --> 16:31.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, Bell Atlantic has basically given us a big denial of service now that has lasted a week.
[16:32.040 --> 16:33.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: What are they going to...
[16:33.360 --> 16:33.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know?
[16:33.800 --> 16:34.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: How are they responsible?
[16:34.940 --> 16:36.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do they pay the penalty?
[16:36.300 --> 16:36.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: We don't get anything.
[16:37.080 --> 16:38.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: We can't even file a complaint.
[16:38.580 --> 16:41.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: They won't let us file a complaint because they're not answerable to anybody.
[16:42.260 --> 16:47.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: If I red box every single call I make for the rest of my life, it will not make up for this.
[16:47.380 --> 16:48.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know?
[16:48.900 --> 16:49.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's ridiculous.
[16:50.880 --> 16:53.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: So that's a little consumer frustration for you right there.
[16:54.860 --> 16:55.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're very frustrated.
[16:55.300 --> 16:55.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: But it affects everybody.
[16:56.500 --> 16:56.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: You're very frustrated.
[16:56.700 --> 16:57.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: I am very frustrated.
[16:57.860 --> 17:01.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think I'm the only person here without a story from hell tonight.
[17:02.020 --> 17:02.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's...
[17:03.140 --> 17:05.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, I'm trying to keep it clean here.
[17:05.840 --> 17:06.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's put it that way.
[17:06.460 --> 17:10.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: But as soon as I walk out the door, you'll hear different words.
[17:11.120 --> 17:13.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'll be going on for a good long time.
[17:14.120 --> 17:14.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[17:14.740 --> 17:17.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bernie, you had some interesting information for us.
[17:18.440 --> 17:22.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting and probably at least it's depressing.
[17:22.960 --> 17:24.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, I wasn't looking forward to being cheered up.
[17:24.960 --> 17:27.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is such a cheery show to listen to, you know?
[17:27.540 --> 17:28.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, you know.
[17:28.420 --> 17:29.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: One laugh after the next.
[17:29.260 --> 17:31.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: We should have like an all good news show one of these days.
[17:32.900 --> 17:33.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, you know what?
[17:34.240 --> 17:35.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: We should do...
[17:35.060 --> 17:36.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Maybe April 1st we'll do that.
[17:36.540 --> 17:36.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[17:37.900 --> 17:41.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'll start lining up content now because we'll probably still be short.
[17:42.460 --> 17:42.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes.
[17:43.120 --> 17:44.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: So what did you find out, Bernie?
[17:44.680 --> 17:49.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, apparently, you had given me a tip about this and I did a little bit of research on it.
[17:50.740 --> 17:57.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Apparently, there's an organization called the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws.
[17:57.760 --> 18:05.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they're the folks who've pretty much codified the Universal Commercial Code.
[18:05.860 --> 18:06.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[18:06.720 --> 18:11.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's pretty much built into state and federal law.
[18:11.460 --> 18:19.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they're upgrading the Universal Commercial Code with something new called the U-C-I-T-A.
[18:19.000 --> 18:24.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that stands for the Uniform Computer Information Transaction Act.
[18:24.780 --> 18:25.180]  Okay.
[18:26.080 --> 18:26.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[18:26.160 --> 18:26.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's try that uniform.
[18:27.080 --> 18:27.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Make things uniform.
[18:28.080 --> 18:36.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what this Uniform Computer Information Transaction Act proposes is to...
[18:37.960 --> 18:43.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: It endorses a licensed model for computer information transactions.
[18:43.680 --> 18:56.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, what that means, it would allow a software vendor or manufacturer to state in the license for that software.
[18:56.860 --> 18:58.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when you buy software, you don't own the software.
[18:58.740 --> 19:00.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: You own a license to use it.
[19:00.540 --> 19:14.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: It would allow the licensor to limit or control how the licensee, that's you and me, can use the software, even when the software has been, like, mass marketed to consumers.
[19:14.680 --> 19:18.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: This isn't like software that's just written custom, like, as a contractual kind of thing.
[19:19.000 --> 19:21.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just, you know, software off the shelf.
[19:22.220 --> 19:44.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And examples of some of these limits would include restrictions on the consumer's right to sue for product defect, or even to publicly discuss or criticize the product, which is blatantly against the First Amendment, but so are things like the Digital Millennium Copyright Act,
[19:44.040 --> 19:50.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: which abridges people's First Amendment rights to express themselves by writing software.
[19:50.860 --> 20:21.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: So here's more of this type of law coming down that restricts people's freedom to use a product that they've purchased and paid money for to use it or even criticize it, as you have, you know, you and others have criticized the Motion Picture Association of America's attempts to limit how people use DVDs that they've bought and paid for.
[20:21.440 --> 20:24.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we try to be kind, but yeah, they're a bunch of idiots, too.
[20:25.560 --> 20:30.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, anyhow, this is not law yet, but it may be law.
[20:30.380 --> 20:40.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I urge people to contact their legislators and express concern about the UCITA, Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act.
[20:40.560 --> 20:44.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't know how many people have actually read a shrink-wrapped license before.
[20:44.340 --> 20:46.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Have you ever read a shrink-wrapped license?
[20:46.600 --> 20:47.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, it can be very amusing.
[20:48.980 --> 20:51.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think, Isaac, about these shrink-wrapped licenses?
[20:51.340 --> 20:54.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you know, you hereby owe us your firstborn.
[20:54.280 --> 21:00.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, we reserve all right to squash you under our thumb should you decide to, you know, open your mouth, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[21:01.120 --> 21:04.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: Should the software have any kind of ill effects on your system?
[21:04.480 --> 21:07.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: We are not responsible for this, that, and the other thing.
[21:07.440 --> 21:08.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's really amusing.
[21:08.440 --> 21:15.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then you click Decline because you really don't want to agree to this, and then the installer just stops and you have no software.
[21:16.180 --> 21:16.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's it!
[21:17.140 --> 21:20.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'd like to write a service agreement where you have to decline, you know?
[21:20.300 --> 21:20.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: You have to decline.
[21:20.840 --> 21:23.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you decline, that means, you know, you can go ahead.
[21:23.520 --> 21:26.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: But if you accept, you're an idiot, and we don't want you as a customer.
[21:26.440 --> 21:36.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, before the whole BXA thing where you would try to download PGP, it used to require you to have a list, like, are you an American citizen?
[21:36.840 --> 21:37.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[21:37.280 --> 21:41.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: Do you intend to give this software to a non-American citizen?
[21:41.320 --> 21:44.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: Are you under the coercion of a foreign government or foreign power?
[21:44.600 --> 21:45.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Are you a liar?
[21:45.500 --> 21:45.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right, you know?
[21:46.140 --> 21:51.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you'd have to just actually click accept, accept, accept, accept, before it would let you through.
[21:51.600 --> 21:54.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I'm sure you could phrase those as decline.
[21:54.860 --> 21:57.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: Like, I am under the coercion of a foreign power, you know?
[21:57.440 --> 21:58.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, I'm not.
[21:58.380 --> 22:03.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's like those customs forms that, you know, foreigners have to fill out when they come to the United States, you know?
[22:03.440 --> 22:03.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've read those.
[22:04.000 --> 22:04.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are you a communist?
[22:05.120 --> 22:05.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are you a terrorist?
[22:06.200 --> 22:06.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: Like, you know, come on.
[22:07.020 --> 22:09.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: A terrorist isn't going to lie about a little checkbox on a...
[22:09.880 --> 22:10.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, yes I am.
[22:10.880 --> 22:11.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's so silly.
[22:12.240 --> 22:14.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, yeah, most people just click OK, and that's it.
[22:15.000 --> 22:17.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: These ludicrous shrink-wrap licenses were pretty much a joke.
[22:18.540 --> 22:21.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: But now this is going to be giving them the protection of law.
[22:22.280 --> 22:26.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right now shrink-wrap licenses have been essentially unenforceable for the most part.
[22:26.620 --> 22:33.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know of anybody who's ever been sued for not complying with a shrink-wrap license.
[22:33.900 --> 22:35.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise there would be a whole lot of people being sued.
[22:36.120 --> 22:38.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, a whole lot of people being sued anyway, but even more people would be sued.
[22:39.960 --> 22:46.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: But this would basically make these shrink-wrap licenses very much more enforceable under law.
[22:47.100 --> 22:54.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: And next time, I'm sure all our listeners probably have a piece of software at home, and there's a license agreement, a little card.
[22:54.460 --> 22:55.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is the license.
[22:55.680 --> 22:57.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it looks like a certificate.
[22:58.300 --> 23:03.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Pull that out after the show and read this shrink-wrap license if it's called.
[23:03.880 --> 23:16.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't call it that, but I call it a shrink-wrap license because it basically means after you've pulled the shrink-wrap off the package, some of these licenses I remember saying, once you've unwrapped this product, you agree to all these things.
[23:17.060 --> 23:21.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: And usually you can't even read it until you've pulled the cellophane off the package anyway.
[23:21.320 --> 23:32.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then you're beholden to this ridiculous set of rules that would be almost impossible to follow and also use the software.
[23:32.980 --> 23:39.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, the other crazy thing about this proposed law is that they don't even have to tell you until after you accept or something crazy like that?
[23:39.400 --> 23:39.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[23:40.180 --> 23:41.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't...
[23:41.580 --> 23:53.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of vague areas in this law, which seems to be a common theme these days, to make the laws as vague as possible so that they can be enforced selectively and as broadly as possible.
[23:53.520 --> 24:14.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't require the software vendor or whoever is selling the intellectual property, the licensor or the one who's granting the license, it doesn't require them to advise the purchaser of the software of everything in the agreement beforehand, which is just...
[24:14.780 --> 24:21.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: It seems to just go completely against contract, you know, what we would consider conventional contract law.
[24:21.660 --> 24:25.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'll tell you, Bernie, it's gotten to the point where these laws come down the pike, right?
[24:25.760 --> 24:27.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: And people just laugh now.
[24:27.260 --> 24:28.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: They don't even pay attention anymore.
[24:28.900 --> 24:31.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's like, how many times can we contact our legislators?
[24:31.420 --> 24:32.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're obviously clueless.
[24:32.500 --> 24:33.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: They never listen anyway.
[24:34.120 --> 24:36.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, at some point you just lose all respect for the law, period.
[24:36.700 --> 24:37.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Here we go.
[24:38.280 --> 24:53.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: The UCITA allows licensors or software to disclose the restrictions about the use of the software after the transaction has been completed, such as when a licensee opens the software box and discovers the terms of the license then.
[24:56.540 --> 24:57.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Surprise!
[24:57.720 --> 24:58.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[24:59.220 --> 25:08.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, the only thing I can really rest assured in is that they're probably not going to go after Joe Sixpack for making fun of Microsoft Outlook or something, you know.
[25:09.660 --> 25:16.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's... they'll probably only be enforcing this on companies where they could potentially get an actual benefit from taking them to court.
[25:17.380 --> 25:20.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but that's a really... I think that's a really dangerous slippery slope.
[25:20.380 --> 25:21.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, it's very dangerous.
[25:21.300 --> 25:21.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you have...
[25:21.440 --> 25:21.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you have...
[25:21.980 --> 25:23.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you got all these laws out there.
[25:23.740 --> 25:25.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: People say, well, we're not going to enforce that.
[25:25.820 --> 25:26.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are you kidding?
[25:26.360 --> 25:26.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[25:26.700 --> 25:30.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, well, I happen to be somebody who's one of these ridiculous laws that was enforced on it.
[25:30.880 --> 25:33.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I spent, like, almost a year and a half in jail for it.
[25:33.300 --> 25:35.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was a law that nobody even knew about.
[25:36.080 --> 25:38.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, this is going to be used on somebody.
[25:38.580 --> 25:40.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think it's going to be...
[25:40.480 --> 25:48.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think people are going to be prosecuted left and right for violating these ridiculous license agreements.
[25:48.740 --> 25:52.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, somebody's going to say, it happened to me.
[25:52.500 --> 25:52.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[25:53.060 --> 25:54.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you never know.
[25:54.200 --> 25:55.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: When your number's up, it could be you.
[25:56.600 --> 26:04.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, here's an interesting story that comes from Europe, very reminiscent of the Etoy incident of last year.
[26:05.720 --> 26:07.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's a network called the Leonardo Network.
[26:07.800 --> 26:14.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was originally founded in the mid-60s by Frank Malina, an eminent astronomical pioneer and kinetic artist.
[26:14.260 --> 26:18.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Members and founders of the network have included Jacob Bronowski, Aura Buckminster Fuller, C.P.
[26:18.900 --> 26:19.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: Snow, C.H.
[26:19.780 --> 26:21.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Waddington, Frank Oppenheimer, John Cage.
[26:21.920 --> 26:28.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Current members include Roy Ascot, Richard Gregory, Lynn Hirschman, and others.
[26:28.760 --> 26:34.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: The network was founded by an earlier generation interested in the use of new media and the sciences and the arts.
[26:35.160 --> 26:48.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: On the 18th of November, the Paris-based company TransAsia Corporation with co-complainants filed a lawsuit against the Leonardo Association in Paris claiming trademark infringement and loss of business.
[26:49.200 --> 26:58.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: TransAsia in their filing claims to have recently trademarked the names Leonardo, Leonardo Finance, Leonardo Partners, Leonardo Experts, and Leonardo DiCaprio.
[26:58.900 --> 27:00.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: He's in a lot of trouble, too.
[27:00.240 --> 27:00.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is he used to?
[27:00.700 --> 27:01.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't think he's heard about this yet.
[27:02.560 --> 27:03.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: Let's see where this is going.
[27:03.660 --> 27:18.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're claiming over a million dollars in damages based on their argument that a search engine search, yeah, search engine search on the word Leonardo brings up not only their websites but those of our association, Leonardo.
[27:18.660 --> 27:21.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's like, yeah, okay, that's how search engines work.
[27:21.580 --> 27:22.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Get used to it.
[27:22.200 --> 27:25.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: They claim that this results in lost business.
[27:25.360 --> 27:27.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please tell me this was left out of court.
[27:28.160 --> 27:29.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: Please tell me this.
[27:29.260 --> 27:30.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: It will be a happy end to the story.
[27:30.720 --> 27:35.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're not in that stage of human development yet where they can laugh at this.
[27:36.360 --> 27:50.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: We cannot refrain to make the editorial comment that the Leonardo offices often get fan mail addressed to Leonardo DiCaprio because in many search engines there is confusion between this actor's fan sites and those of the Leonardo arts organization as well as Leonardo da Vinci.
[27:51.680 --> 27:54.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: But he's been remarkably quiet about the whole thing.
[27:55.120 --> 27:57.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: I figured he'd be the original holder of the...
[27:57.980 --> 27:58.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[27:58.720 --> 28:04.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Their lawsuits ask that we be restrained from using the word Leonardo in any of our activities and ask for penalties.
[28:04.700 --> 28:10.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Following the filing of the lawsuit, and this comes from someone who sent us mail from Toronto.
[28:11.100 --> 28:11.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think from Toronto.
[28:14.360 --> 28:21.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: TransAsia obtained a search warrant for the home of my mother, the 80-year-old widow of artist Frank Molina, her home in a suburb of Paris.
[28:22.820 --> 28:27.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: The search warrant was served by a squad of eight French policemen accompanied by a locksmith.
[28:27.320 --> 28:31.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: They had instructions to copy all papers with the word Leonardo on them.
[28:31.900 --> 28:39.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: More absurdly, they had instructions to log into the internet from my mother's home, presumably to show that the Leonardo websites could be accessed from this location.
[28:39.960 --> 28:43.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: They left with copies of papers dating back to the 1960s.
[28:44.120 --> 28:49.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: I regret to say that my mother has never intended to use the internet and her home has never been used for website creation.
[28:50.200 --> 28:53.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Unfortunately, they chose not to remove all papers with the word Leonardo on them.
[28:53.460 --> 28:59.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: This would have resolved a long-standing dispute between my mother, my brother, and I on how we are going to dispose of the old archives that filled the garage.
[29:01.460 --> 29:10.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: All humor aside, this raid by the French police with no warning was very, very frightening for our family, including my eight-year-old son, who was present at the time of the raid, etc., etc.
[29:10.260 --> 29:13.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: That was from Roger Molina.
[29:13.340 --> 29:15.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was wrong as to where he was from.
[29:15.540 --> 29:16.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Obviously, he's from France.
[29:17.220 --> 29:17.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, uh...
[29:17.960 --> 29:18.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know what?
[29:18.760 --> 29:19.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is crazy.
[29:19.820 --> 29:20.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm going to trademark Smith.
[29:21.340 --> 29:22.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, it's kind of late for that.
[29:22.620 --> 29:23.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm going to get Smith.
[29:23.820 --> 29:24.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: Kind of late.
[29:24.660 --> 29:31.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: I can go around to a good fifth of the population of this planet and start demanding that they turn over their names.
[29:32.400 --> 29:34.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: You can't have stationary with the name Smith on it.
[29:35.240 --> 29:37.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is that a pencil with Smith on it?
[29:37.460 --> 29:38.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, sir.
[29:38.400 --> 29:41.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: That car with the registration that says Smith, that's my vehicle now.
[29:42.100 --> 29:43.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: This has some real possibilities.
[29:44.040 --> 29:44.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: I like it, in fact.
[29:44.880 --> 29:45.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[29:45.400 --> 29:46.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: It definitely does.
[29:47.760 --> 29:48.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Blacksmith.
[29:48.560 --> 29:54.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we'll be keeping people apprised of this situation as things happen.
[29:55.260 --> 29:55.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Crazy.
[29:55.900 --> 29:56.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Smithsonian.
[29:56.560 --> 29:59.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: These things just will not stop.
[30:01.140 --> 30:01.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[30:01.900 --> 30:03.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm getting threatening mail now.
[30:04.260 --> 30:05.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, no.
[30:05.080 --> 30:05.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Really?
[30:05.260 --> 30:05.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, finally.
[30:05.940 --> 30:06.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Imagine that.
[30:06.200 --> 30:07.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: More threatening mail.
[30:07.400 --> 30:08.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: But this is good.
[30:08.540 --> 30:09.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is what I was waiting for, actually.
[30:10.600 --> 30:11.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: We knew this was going to happen.
[30:12.540 --> 30:15.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: Did you not, like, buy the extra CDs from the penny thing?
[30:15.380 --> 30:15.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: No.
[30:15.420 --> 30:17.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: We got a mail from Collect Tech Systems.
[30:17.640 --> 30:18.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Collect Tech Systems.
[30:18.340 --> 30:20.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: Collect Tech Systems is a collection agency.
[30:22.540 --> 30:25.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is regarding your long-distance charges with AT&T.
[30:25.540 --> 30:26.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: AT&T has made several...
[30:26.940 --> 30:27.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh!
[30:27.040 --> 30:27.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, we knew this was going to happen.
[30:27.840 --> 30:28.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: I remember this, yeah.
[30:28.460 --> 30:31.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: AT&T has made several attempts at resolving this account with you and has been unsuccessful.
[30:31.860 --> 30:32.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Unsuccessful.
[30:32.540 --> 30:33.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Has been unsuccessful.
[30:33.680 --> 30:34.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Have been unsuccessful.
[30:35.460 --> 30:39.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we had this discussion at one point where is the entity an it or a they?
[30:39.640 --> 30:40.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know, but I think they're plural.
[30:41.100 --> 30:42.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't think it's a single individual.
[30:42.980 --> 30:48.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Since you have failed to resolve this issue with AT&T, they have now assigned your account to us for a collection.
[30:48.680 --> 30:56.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: If the balance of $25.04 is incorrect, I want them to pay, all right?
[30:56.620 --> 30:58.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't want them to pay through the nose.
[30:59.060 --> 31:00.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because they deserve to.
[31:00.880 --> 31:01.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: They deserve to.
[31:01.620 --> 31:06.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: If the balance of $25.04 is incorrect, please see a reverse side for information on disputing this debt.
[31:06.520 --> 31:08.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you have questions or need assistance, blah, blah, blah.
[31:09.060 --> 31:13.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: It is in your best interest to resolve this matter to avoid any further collection efforts.
[31:13.360 --> 31:15.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, but I like the further collection efforts.
[31:15.480 --> 31:16.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: I really do.
[31:17.440 --> 31:25.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: To ensure accurate recording of your payment, you must send your payment, all caps, using the bottom tear-off portion of this letter with the enclosed envelope.
[31:26.100 --> 31:30.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: When your obligation has been resolved, we will clear this record from our collection file.
[31:30.720 --> 31:40.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, now for those who don't know, this all stems from AT&T deciding to bill me separately from the phone company on a line where I don't use long distance.
[31:41.440 --> 31:46.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: So basically every month they were sending me a bill for tax, just for them.
[31:46.180 --> 31:50.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, a service charge for them having an account, or me having an account with them, which I didn't want.
[31:51.520 --> 31:56.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I couldn't disconnect without incurring another charge of some other sort.
[31:56.140 --> 31:57.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you tried to do this though.
[31:57.720 --> 32:02.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: You've actually called them and said, I don't want this account, I don't want you charging me on this line, right?
[32:02.600 --> 32:18.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, well, I did have an option of not having them be the long distance company, but I would have to pay somebody, whether it be Bell Atlantic, Sprint, whoever, I would have to pay them to have the line there for possible making of long distance calls.
[32:18.700 --> 32:22.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, you see, I didn't mind doing this when it was part of the bill, okay?
[32:22.300 --> 32:25.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was just, you know, part of those hundred or so different taxes that you pay.
[32:25.740 --> 32:26.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, big deal.
[32:26.800 --> 32:38.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: But when they send you an envelope that is nothing but taxes, you know, and nonsense charges for no service, you kind of feel like not paying that because what are they going to do if you don't?
[32:38.700 --> 32:40.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: What are they going to do now?
[32:40.280 --> 32:44.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're going to send these ridiculous letters for $25.04.
[32:44.840 --> 32:48.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're going to get increasingly upset when they realize there's not a damn thing they can do to get it from me.
[32:49.240 --> 32:52.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they can't cut me off because that's what I want in the first place.
[32:52.780 --> 32:54.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I don't think they know how to cut me off.
[32:54.780 --> 33:02.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, the one thing, though, that annoys me about this, my social security numbers on this thing, and I never gave my social security number to AT&T.
[33:02.000 --> 33:03.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: So how did they get that?
[33:03.880 --> 33:06.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think they dipped into my TRW file or something.
[33:06.520 --> 33:06.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Very likely.
[33:07.540 --> 33:08.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's not right.
[33:08.820 --> 33:09.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: Not right at all.
[33:09.320 --> 33:12.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: It will be reported as a deadbeat, Emmanuel, for not paying this.
[33:12.300 --> 33:13.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you see, here's the thing.
[33:13.340 --> 33:16.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: Phone bills never got reported to credit agencies before.
[33:16.800 --> 33:17.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: They never did.
[33:17.580 --> 33:18.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you didn't pay your phone bill, it would be easy.
[33:18.980 --> 33:23.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now that it's in the hands of a credit collections agency, they will report you to a credit bureau.
[33:23.420 --> 33:24.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you know what?
[33:24.040 --> 33:25.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've had just about enough credit in this life.
[33:25.880 --> 33:28.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't think I'm going to be buying, you know, much else.
[33:28.880 --> 33:32.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: So that $25.04 can follow me around for many years.
[33:32.540 --> 33:33.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm not going to...
[33:33.500 --> 33:35.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'll tell the story to anybody who wants to listen.
[33:35.860 --> 33:39.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, if I'm sitting in a bank somewhere and it comes up, I'll tell them the whole saga.
[33:39.840 --> 33:41.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'm sure they'll understand.
[33:42.280 --> 33:44.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: I got this big barcode over my name.
[33:44.500 --> 33:44.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's a...
[33:45.620 --> 33:46.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm in the system.
[33:46.580 --> 33:47.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm in the system now.
[33:47.620 --> 33:52.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I'll tell you, you know, the one thing that really is reason enough to do this, I'll demonstrate this way right now.
[33:52.700 --> 33:52.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right?
[33:53.180 --> 33:54.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: This happened to me yesterday.
[33:56.000 --> 33:57.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's just unbelievable.
[33:57.440 --> 34:01.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: Remember how you used to be able to ask questions like...
[34:01.660 --> 34:02.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I'll demonstrate.
[34:03.000 --> 34:05.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: We want to call somebody, pick a country.
[34:07.420 --> 34:07.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh...
[34:07.820 --> 34:08.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: England.
[34:08.440 --> 34:08.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: Australia.
[34:09.200 --> 34:09.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: Australia's good.
[34:09.680 --> 34:09.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[34:09.840 --> 34:12.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's get a dial tone here.
[34:12.600 --> 34:15.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's dial zero, which I think will get us an AT&T operator.
[34:16.000 --> 34:16.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hopefully it's AT&T.
[34:16.980 --> 34:18.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: If it's not, we'll have to try something else.
[34:18.520 --> 34:18.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[34:22.750 --> 34:23.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: It always takes forever.
[34:25.770 --> 34:26.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: AT&T.
[34:27.010 --> 34:29.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: To place a call, please dial the number that you are calling.
[34:29.450 --> 34:30.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: You don't get an operator.
[34:30.490 --> 34:32.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: You have to go through all this.
[34:32.410 --> 34:33.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Press one.
[34:33.530 --> 34:36.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: For other requests, please say information, credit, or operator.
[34:37.210 --> 34:37.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Operator!
[34:38.830 --> 34:40.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Please hold for operator assistance.
[34:40.850 --> 34:40.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Not bad.
[34:42.650 --> 34:43.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: AT&T.
[34:43.650 --> 34:44.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: How may I help you?
[34:44.470 --> 34:44.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi.
[34:44.870 --> 34:47.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: I need to know what time it is in Australia, please.
[34:47.950 --> 34:50.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're different depending on the territory.
[34:50.390 --> 34:50.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Where?
[34:51.150 --> 34:52.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: It would be Melbourne.
[35:02.100 --> 35:02.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Victoria.
[35:06.510 --> 35:07.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's 1235 PM.
[35:08.070 --> 35:09.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're 16 hours ahead.
[35:09.470 --> 35:09.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[35:09.730 --> 35:10.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's very helpful.
[35:10.390 --> 35:18.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, I got to say, I asked a similar question yesterday, and they connected me without any question to this service where you get charged a dollar.
[35:18.690 --> 35:18.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[35:19.290 --> 35:20.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why do they do that?
[35:20.810 --> 35:21.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because we're supposed to.
[35:21.990 --> 35:22.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, you're supposed to do that?
[35:23.030 --> 35:23.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[35:23.690 --> 35:24.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't.
[35:24.110 --> 35:24.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh.
[35:24.510 --> 35:25.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I'm very happy you don't.
[35:26.010 --> 35:27.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I don't think...
[35:27.510 --> 35:28.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's something we ought to give.
[35:29.730 --> 35:30.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[35:30.610 --> 35:32.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: I totally agree with you.
[35:32.450 --> 35:34.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have problems with a lot of the policies here.
[35:35.090 --> 35:35.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[35:35.410 --> 35:35.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think you should...
[35:35.950 --> 35:38.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think we should charge you for breathing.
[35:40.030 --> 35:41.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we need more people like you.
[35:42.110 --> 35:43.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you very much.
[35:43.330 --> 35:44.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks so much.
[35:44.170 --> 35:44.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[35:44.690 --> 35:44.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bye.
[35:44.830 --> 35:44.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[35:45.030 --> 35:45.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Take care.
[35:46.570 --> 35:46.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[35:46.810 --> 35:47.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: That was refreshing.
[35:47.890 --> 35:50.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: I just hope her name didn't get out, because she'll get fired tomorrow.
[35:51.070 --> 35:55.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: I would have asked to speak to her supervisor and, like, given a great report, like, this person was so...
[35:55.330 --> 35:55.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, no, no, no.
[35:55.710 --> 35:57.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: He couldn't say why, because then she gets fired.
[35:57.030 --> 35:58.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, because she would get in trouble.
[35:58.470 --> 35:59.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's how screwed up they are down there.
[36:00.010 --> 36:02.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: They will get in trouble for doing something like this.
[36:02.150 --> 36:06.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's an operator that should be cherished, because they are a dying breed.
[36:06.130 --> 36:08.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: But as you heard from her, they're just supposed to switch you over.
[36:08.730 --> 36:14.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're very lucky we didn't get switched over, because BAI would have my head, because they charge you a dollar when you get connected.
[36:15.310 --> 36:17.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: And yesterday, we had to call somebody in Australia.
[36:17.410 --> 36:18.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: I wanted to know what time it was.
[36:18.710 --> 36:19.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Called the operator.
[36:19.550 --> 36:20.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: What time is it in Australia?
[36:21.470 --> 36:27.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Next thing I know, I'm hearing a different operator, you know, that has charged me a dollar already just for the privilege of, you know, connecting.
[36:27.850 --> 36:28.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Getting the time in Australia.
[36:29.170 --> 36:35.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's why, you know, this $25.04 is not getting paid because of little scams like that.
[36:35.230 --> 36:36.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, whoever you are out there, thank you.
[36:36.730 --> 36:38.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, that was really nice.
[36:39.470 --> 36:41.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: At least they didn't tell you what time it was in Swatch time.
[36:42.310 --> 36:43.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, she gave me the right information, too.
[36:45.010 --> 36:46.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's another rarity these days.
[36:46.790 --> 36:47.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, what's up with...
[36:47.950 --> 36:49.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Isaac, have you heard about this?
[36:49.590 --> 36:49.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: The...
[36:51.170 --> 36:53.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Connectix announces decisive victory in Sony lawsuit.
[36:53.710 --> 36:54.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Have you heard about this?
[36:54.370 --> 36:55.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, that thing?
[36:55.210 --> 36:55.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, what's up with this?
[37:06.730 --> 37:08.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: The LDCSS case.
[37:08.350 --> 37:09.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, something like that.
[37:10.110 --> 37:13.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the court ruled on the side of the people making the emulation.
[37:14.150 --> 37:14.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Really?
[37:14.890 --> 37:15.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[37:15.550 --> 37:16.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: Imagine that.
[37:16.370 --> 37:17.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you know about this already.
[37:18.030 --> 37:18.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're just playing along.
[37:19.070 --> 37:19.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, I am.
[37:19.350 --> 37:19.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[37:19.950 --> 37:21.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, explain to me...
[37:21.550 --> 37:22.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: First off, here's a story.
[37:22.930 --> 37:23.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, well...
[37:23.430 --> 37:24.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Since you haven't read anything tonight.
[37:24.410 --> 37:25.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is the first piece of paper I have.
[37:25.710 --> 37:25.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[37:25.990 --> 37:28.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, what does this mean?
[37:28.590 --> 37:29.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: What did they do?
[37:29.210 --> 37:32.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: They basically said it's okay for them to do this?
[37:34.630 --> 37:37.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, thank you for handing this to me now and expecting me to report on it.
[37:37.610 --> 37:38.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, no problem at all.
[37:39.690 --> 37:48.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: From what I know, Connectix basically sat down with a PlayStation and some of the games and managed to build an emulator by reverse engineering.
[37:48.950 --> 37:49.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mm-hmm.
[37:49.730 --> 37:51.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, how come they're not getting sued like we are?
[37:51.870 --> 37:52.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I have a...
[37:52.990 --> 37:53.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's a quote here.
[37:53.950 --> 37:54.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[37:54.170 --> 37:55.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: I should perhaps read.
[37:56.090 --> 38:04.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: The court has recognized that reverse engineering is a common, legitimate, and valuable development practice protected under law, stated Roy McDonald, CEO of Connectix.
[38:04.690 --> 38:09.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: We are pleased to be able to bring our product back to the Macintosh community and launch it into the Windows market.
[38:10.090 --> 38:11.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now consumers on both...
[38:11.270 --> 38:13.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, now he's just doing this whole self-aggrandizement thing.
[38:13.430 --> 38:13.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[38:14.130 --> 38:17.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: These guys got money, obviously, so they were able to get a decent ruling.
[38:17.990 --> 38:23.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: We believe this landmark decision will have broad ramifications throughout the software and other media industries.
[38:23.590 --> 38:26.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: This ruling supports the clear goal of U.S.
[38:26.350 --> 38:32.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: copyright law to allow fair use of prior works to create new intellectual property which broadens consumer choice.
[38:32.250 --> 38:33.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is a great victory for every American.
[38:34.090 --> 38:37.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: I would tend to agree, except it certainly hasn't impacted our case, has it?
[38:38.210 --> 38:39.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Where is this court?
[38:39.630 --> 38:42.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: This court is the United States Court of Appeals and the Ninth Circuit.
[38:43.170 --> 38:43.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's good.
[38:44.410 --> 38:47.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a higher court than the DVD case has gotten to.
[38:47.670 --> 38:48.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, hopefully...
[38:48.290 --> 38:50.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, we can point to this as some kind of precedent.
[38:50.530 --> 38:51.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's serious.
[38:52.270 --> 38:55.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: A non-circuit court, that's one step below the United States Supreme Court.
[38:56.230 --> 38:56.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[38:56.570 --> 39:02.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or just in California, and they're a little more liberal with this intellectual copyright and intellectual property stuff.
[39:02.870 --> 39:03.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: But...
[39:03.070 --> 39:04.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I have the findings here.
[39:04.510 --> 39:07.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, are we still going to have to go through a lawsuit, though, even though this has already been decided?
[39:08.270 --> 39:12.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, are we still going to have to waste our time when we already know the answer?
[39:12.370 --> 39:13.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: You could...
[39:13.370 --> 39:16.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: I guess you could move for dismissal or something based on something like that.
[39:16.970 --> 39:17.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: All right.
[39:17.230 --> 39:18.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's move for dismissal.
[39:18.350 --> 39:19.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll talk to it right now.
[39:19.510 --> 39:20.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Moving right here on the air.
[39:21.010 --> 39:21.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Come on.
[39:21.590 --> 39:23.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think Judge Kaplan would receive that very well.
[39:23.670 --> 39:25.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, of course you wouldn't, but...
[39:25.950 --> 39:27.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Isaac, I've got a question about this.
[39:27.630 --> 39:28.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Go ahead, sir.
[39:28.070 --> 39:33.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was there any means of circumvention used?
[39:33.530 --> 39:37.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, was there any type of control mechanism to...
[39:37.250 --> 39:43.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: that was specifically designed to make this difficult to do, that Connectix found...
[39:43.730 --> 39:46.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: An actual technical means of controlling the access to the Sony games?
[39:46.830 --> 39:48.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, as there was, like CSS.
[39:49.850 --> 39:55.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, based on my very quick skimming of this article, I'm not seeing anything.
[39:56.630 --> 39:57.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: That could be.
[39:57.650 --> 40:02.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, to emulate the hardware accurately, Connectix had to copy the PlayStation BIOS to test it.
[40:02.450 --> 40:11.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: Then it had to write a BIOS of its own that worked like the Sony code, but wasn't a mirror of it to replace the immediate copies made for testing, which was a clean room technique, so...
[40:11.370 --> 40:14.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: They probably had to do this in an intellectual clean room.
[40:14.370 --> 40:14.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Correct.
[40:14.810 --> 40:20.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like you may recall the early IBM PC BIOS clones.
[40:20.650 --> 40:29.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, Compaq was the first company to really successfully come up with a functionally equivalent BIOS to IBM's PC BIOS.
[40:29.930 --> 40:33.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, Compaq did it in an interesting way by involving another company, which was Phoenix BIOS.
[40:33.710 --> 40:34.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[40:34.290 --> 40:34.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: You may recall them.
[40:36.450 --> 40:40.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: And basically, clean rooming works that you get a set of engineers, you hand them the product.
[40:41.270 --> 40:43.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: They have the product, they play with it, and they write up a spec.
[40:44.650 --> 40:56.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Once you have the spec, you take the spec over to the company that's going to do the production, and based solely on the spec, they design the part that will allow the kind of emulation that you're looking for.
[40:56.170 --> 40:57.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: You set up an intellectual firewall.
[40:57.990 --> 40:58.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: Exactly.
[40:58.710 --> 41:04.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: Where the engineers that develop your product have never seen the competitor's product or played with it in any way.
[41:04.430 --> 41:04.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: Are we sure?
[41:05.170 --> 41:07.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: All they've seen were the specifications that the other group wrote.
[41:07.910 --> 41:08.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Correct.
[41:08.910 --> 41:16.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's one of the problems that I've been pointing out with the DVD case, where it really should have been clean roomed and it would have stopped a lot of this legal difficulty.
[41:16.730 --> 41:19.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I think we found the intellectual firewall in the court there.
[41:19.890 --> 41:21.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's definitely a lot of intellect not getting through.
[41:22.650 --> 41:27.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Listen, guys, we've got to move on because we're running low on time, and we want to take some phone calls.
[41:27.250 --> 41:29.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-209-2900.
[41:29.930 --> 41:30.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, Laszlo, say hi.
[41:31.470 --> 41:31.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi.
[41:31.950 --> 41:32.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: How are you doing?
[41:32.490 --> 41:33.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: What are you doing here?
[41:34.050 --> 41:34.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: TV.
[41:34.650 --> 41:34.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Just popped in.
[41:35.050 --> 41:36.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, you're on a different station.
[41:36.730 --> 41:36.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[41:37.350 --> 41:37.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Commercial.
[41:38.290 --> 41:40.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Part of the corporate media.
[41:40.430 --> 41:41.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: See, it's bleeding in.
[41:41.370 --> 41:43.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: He represents the corporate media here.
[41:43.710 --> 41:44.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, Ryan.
[41:45.390 --> 41:46.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: How's the technophile?
[41:46.870 --> 41:47.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're doing okay.
[41:47.930 --> 41:51.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're kind of getting beat down by corporate radio because all this...
[41:51.370 --> 41:51.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: Really?
[41:51.410 --> 41:51.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, yes.
[41:53.250 --> 41:59.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Stations that we've been on for three or four years get bought up by one of the big two companies.
[41:59.630 --> 41:59.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Big two.
[42:00.110 --> 42:02.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: And suddenly we're no longer on that station anymore.
[42:02.970 --> 42:09.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Because those companies tell all their stations to only run programming that they own.
[42:09.010 --> 42:11.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: That way they can make more money off of it.
[42:11.270 --> 42:11.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know.
[42:11.330 --> 42:13.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: So if they don't own you, then they don't want you on their station.
[42:13.670 --> 42:14.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: The networks are doing the same thing.
[42:15.490 --> 42:15.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[42:15.630 --> 42:16.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: TV networks are doing the same thing.
[42:17.130 --> 42:20.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: So it must be something to be part of a national trend.
[42:20.550 --> 42:27.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I think it's really good for consumers to have fewer voices because then you don't get that disorientation of many different...
[42:27.910 --> 42:28.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: No confusion.
[42:28.290 --> 42:28.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[42:28.650 --> 42:28.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[42:28.950 --> 42:29.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[42:29.450 --> 42:32.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why read a newspaper story that has different versions?
[42:33.050 --> 42:33.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[42:33.350 --> 42:38.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: It saves you from having to think and assimilate the data and come to your own conclusions.
[42:38.230 --> 42:40.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you know, just right there on the silver platter for you.
[42:40.130 --> 42:40.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: It saves a lot of time.
[42:40.930 --> 42:42.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's like becoming the board collective or something.
[42:42.710 --> 42:44.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's why I read USA Today.
[42:44.610 --> 42:44.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[42:45.170 --> 42:45.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[42:45.790 --> 42:49.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, you can get that paper in any city in the country and it's always the same.
[42:49.910 --> 42:50.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[42:50.530 --> 42:51.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: I look for that consistency.
[42:51.790 --> 42:53.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's always delivered to your hotel room.
[42:53.890 --> 42:54.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[42:55.390 --> 42:55.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, boy.
[42:55.930 --> 42:58.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, that's good to know.
[42:59.070 --> 43:00.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: So everything else is okay in the corporate world?
[43:00.810 --> 43:01.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[43:02.090 --> 43:03.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not in the corporate world.
[43:03.790 --> 43:04.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, your voice is.
[43:04.770 --> 43:06.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Your voice is on the corporate radio there.
[43:06.830 --> 43:08.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I am on some NPR stations.
[43:09.050 --> 43:09.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[43:09.630 --> 43:09.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's good.
[43:09.850 --> 43:11.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I'm on a Christian station.
[43:11.590 --> 43:11.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wow.
[43:12.030 --> 43:12.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's good.
[43:13.570 --> 43:14.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: Where's the Christian station?
[43:14.530 --> 43:15.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know, dude.
[43:15.730 --> 43:17.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just try not to pay attention to that one.
[43:18.810 --> 43:21.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: I actually got thrown off of a Catholic station.
[43:21.290 --> 43:21.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Really?
[43:21.790 --> 43:24.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I did a piece about how you could order hookers on the internet.
[43:25.490 --> 43:25.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh.
[43:25.970 --> 43:26.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, um...
[43:26.830 --> 43:27.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: That wasn't appreciated.
[43:27.810 --> 43:28.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: No.
[43:28.590 --> 43:28.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Boo.
[43:29.490 --> 43:30.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're biting into their territory there.
[43:31.090 --> 43:31.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: They don't like that.
[43:32.610 --> 43:33.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[43:33.470 --> 43:34.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm gonna get letters now.
[43:34.830 --> 43:35.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's do well.
[43:35.790 --> 43:36.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: 209.
[43:36.150 --> 43:38.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's taken me a great deal of restraint to hold my tongue.
[43:38.850 --> 43:41.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I just like insulting all religions, you know, because...
[43:41.310 --> 43:42.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, well, I can see that.
[43:42.390 --> 43:42.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[43:43.050 --> 43:44.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-209-2900.
[43:44.410 --> 43:45.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's take some phone calls here.
[43:45.950 --> 43:46.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[43:46.510 --> 43:47.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on the air.
[43:49.810 --> 43:50.630]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[43:50.970 --> 43:51.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: How you doing?
[43:51.570 --> 43:53.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's so nice hearing that friendly voice.
[43:53.230 --> 43:54.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's hear another friendly voice.
[43:54.030 --> 43:54.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[43:54.410 --> 43:54.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on the air.
[43:55.150 --> 43:55.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, good evening.
[43:56.050 --> 43:56.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: How are you?
[43:56.450 --> 43:57.330]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm fine.
[43:57.330 --> 43:58.030]  [SPEAKER_17]: How are you, gentlemen?
[43:58.350 --> 43:59.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're pretty good.
[43:59.490 --> 44:02.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I'm actually in a very bad mood, but other than that, I think everyone else is okay.
[44:02.710 --> 44:03.550]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, I agree with you.
[44:03.610 --> 44:15.310]  [SPEAKER_17]: And especially what teased me off about the phone company is all those taxes they charge, they never pay a penny in taxes after depreciation and all of their legal maneuvering.
[44:15.310 --> 44:21.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, well, you know, they have to put the internet in every school in the country, but they pass it on to the rate payers.
[44:21.210 --> 44:22.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: So it's actually, we're doing that.
[44:22.730 --> 44:23.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're not doing anything.
[44:24.150 --> 44:31.610]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, but isn't that fantastic how they keep charging all federal excise tax and they never pay a penny in tax or federal excise tax.
[44:31.610 --> 44:39.730]  [SPEAKER_17]: Anyway, besides that, Microsoft, that's how they back-engineered IBM products in terms of the computer.
[44:40.190 --> 44:41.610]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, they did the same thing.
[44:41.990 --> 44:47.350]  [SPEAKER_17]: I believe they even pioneered the clean room technology, that maneuver, legal maneuver.
[44:47.490 --> 45:06.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, Microsoft was in a much more interesting situation where IBM actually contracted them to write DOS, to write their operating systems, and I'm pretty sure that there were some stipulations in the contract where they would have, they would actually retain ownership over the operating system and IBM would simply license it from them.
[45:07.430 --> 45:11.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, you know, IBM just didn't see, you know, what was going to happen.
[45:11.950 --> 45:15.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, unfortunately, they got screwed over by Bill.
[45:15.390 --> 45:21.090]  [SPEAKER_17]: Because I had read that they wound up going one step further and back engineering stuff.
[45:21.350 --> 45:25.890]  [SPEAKER_17]: But let me ask you this, that I wanted to know what you think about.
[45:25.890 --> 45:40.230]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, the technological leap from vacuum tubes to transistors, I don't think that's ever been really documented in terms of how and when that actually occurred and the research and development behind that.
[45:40.350 --> 45:42.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: Are you going to say the word Roswell at some point?
[45:42.290 --> 45:42.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: I was thinking...
[45:42.850 --> 45:42.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[45:43.470 --> 45:45.630]  [SPEAKER_17]: You see, you're very perceptive.
[45:46.110 --> 45:55.770]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's what some people are saying in terms of back engineering, even stuff like the Roswell-type connotation and Base 51-type stuff.
[45:55.990 --> 45:58.210]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, I mean, what is your understanding?
[45:59.010 --> 46:01.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Don't you think we would have jumped right into ICs or something, though?
[46:01.390 --> 46:05.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, you know, if these guys came here from outer space, they would have at least given us decent technology.
[46:05.710 --> 46:06.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I mean...
[46:06.310 --> 46:10.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: My uncle happened to be working at Bell Labs during the development of the transistor.
[46:11.090 --> 46:14.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he doesn't resemble a Martian in any way.
[46:14.190 --> 46:21.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: But, I mean, so you gentlemen believe then that the research and development is well documented in terms of the leap?
[46:21.890 --> 46:26.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: I would tend to think that if I were to look at the records of the time to...
[46:26.510 --> 46:29.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: you would see a progression towards, oh, here's a really good idea.
[46:29.130 --> 46:30.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, let's do it this way.
[46:30.390 --> 46:33.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, you know, it would just start to fall its way in.
[46:33.930 --> 46:38.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: I've never done such a very in-depth search on my own.
[46:38.270 --> 46:39.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: I've heard people have.
[46:40.010 --> 46:43.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: I guess maybe, you know, I got a free weekend coming up, so maybe I could.
[46:43.090 --> 46:45.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, if you have web access, which I don't, you can do that.
[46:45.510 --> 46:46.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, well...
[46:46.130 --> 46:47.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, 212, 209, 2900.
[46:47.710 --> 46:48.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[46:48.210 --> 46:49.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on the air.
[46:50.290 --> 46:50.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hello.
[46:50.790 --> 46:51.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, go ahead.
[46:51.550 --> 46:52.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, this is Scott.
[46:52.450 --> 46:52.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: How are you?
[46:52.970 --> 46:53.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: How are you?
[46:54.070 --> 46:58.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I just wanted to clarify something that Bernie was talking about, Bernie S.
[46:58.990 --> 46:59.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: The...
[46:59.310 --> 47:00.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is this the Scott that I know and love?
[47:01.110 --> 47:01.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is the Scott that you know.
[47:01.810 --> 47:02.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: How are you, Bernie?
[47:02.470 --> 47:02.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, Scott.
[47:02.910 --> 47:03.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: How are you doing?
[47:03.690 --> 47:04.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: All right, pretty well.
[47:04.350 --> 47:04.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yourself?
[47:04.890 --> 47:07.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, let's get past the social stuff here.
[47:07.510 --> 47:08.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Call each other later.
[47:08.470 --> 47:08.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[47:08.590 --> 47:13.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, listen, the UCITA, which is the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act.
[47:14.050 --> 47:14.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[47:14.370 --> 47:14.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[47:14.610 --> 47:15.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's got to be the worst acronym.
[47:16.730 --> 47:27.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just one thing I want to clarify, everything you've said, and also, this is one of these rare moments where even the federal government is against it, which is to say the Federal Trade Commission.
[47:28.150 --> 47:44.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you follow the links on the various websites that have been reporting on this one, you can actually read the letter that the Federal Trade Commission sent to the, I guess, the executive committee chair, whatever his name is, who heads this thing.
[47:45.470 --> 47:51.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: So here's an example where even the FTC really has serious problems with it.
[47:51.970 --> 47:53.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's got to be a complete rarity.
[47:54.070 --> 47:55.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I've never seen that before.
[47:55.070 --> 47:55.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: They actually have a conscience.
[47:55.970 --> 47:56.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[47:56.890 --> 47:57.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's remarkable.
[47:57.650 --> 47:59.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: They have something else planned, maybe.
[47:59.630 --> 48:14.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Although the letter that was sent, it is important to note that the letter that was sent has a footnote which says, this letter represents the views of the Bureaus of Consumer Protection and Competition and of the Policy Planning Office and does not necessarily represent the views of the FTC or any individual commissioner.
[48:14.590 --> 48:18.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: The FTC, however, has authorized the staff to submit this letter.
[48:19.190 --> 48:19.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wow.
[48:19.910 --> 48:20.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wonderful.
[48:20.570 --> 48:21.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just in case.
[48:21.970 --> 48:22.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just in case.
[48:22.450 --> 48:32.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I guess there are portions of the FTC that are against this UCITA for the reasons that you mentioned and more.
[48:34.370 --> 48:34.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[48:34.970 --> 48:35.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[48:35.050 --> 48:37.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we'll keep an eye on it as well as an eye on many things.
[48:38.050 --> 48:38.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thanks for the heads up on that.
[48:38.990 --> 48:39.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sounds good.
[48:39.410 --> 48:45.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: And one other thing concerning this case about Connectix, there's also another company.
[48:45.770 --> 48:49.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: There were two companies, actually, that were sued by Sony.
[48:50.630 --> 49:04.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: The difference being that Connectix actually copied the BIOS and then created their own BIOS, whereas the other company, I think their name is Blean or Bleep.
[49:04.390 --> 49:05.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: I can't quite remember it.
[49:05.910 --> 49:09.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: But what they did was just treated the entire situation as if it was a black box.
[49:09.930 --> 49:12.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: So they didn't copy the BIOS to make their own BIOS.
[49:13.770 --> 49:19.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: They just said, okay, well, you know, this instruction puts a red dot up here, so what do we need to do to put a red dot up there?
[49:19.990 --> 49:21.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then they did it that way.
[49:21.810 --> 49:26.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: So the cases were initially treated separate, but now it's been ruled that they're pretty much the same.
[49:26.750 --> 49:35.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: And by the way, Sony is using the same arguments in that case that they are, that MPAA is using on...
[49:36.350 --> 49:36.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Us.
[49:37.070 --> 49:37.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: On you.
[49:37.570 --> 49:37.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wait a second.
[49:38.150 --> 49:40.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: Isn't Sony Motion Pictures one of our plaintiffs?
[49:40.750 --> 49:45.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Which is a Connectix software used to pirate Sony PlayStation CDs.
[49:45.450 --> 49:46.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sony is one of the plaintiffs.
[49:47.350 --> 49:49.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: One of the plaintiffs in our other suit.
[49:49.250 --> 49:49.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[49:49.790 --> 49:52.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I actually have to read into this Connectix thing.
[49:52.110 --> 49:56.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, I just got shuffled the papers two minutes beforehand and I've heard nothing about rumor.
[49:56.230 --> 49:58.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's actually, it's so similar that it's remarkable.
[49:58.570 --> 50:06.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: In fact, I can't imagine any court that could look at your case as separate from these other cases.
[50:06.730 --> 50:16.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're really, they're really, the only difference actually, the only difference that I could state, is that in one case you have two corporations that are trying to make money off their product.
[50:16.470 --> 50:16.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right, exactly.
[50:17.230 --> 50:23.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: And in your case, no one was trying to make any profit and it was essentially what, either freeware or shareware.
[50:23.770 --> 50:24.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well...
[50:24.130 --> 50:25.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's the only difference I've noticed at all.
[50:25.290 --> 50:29.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's the same difference, the same way corporations are treated differently than individuals.
[50:29.750 --> 50:33.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you, you know, change a letter on a corporate webpage, you've committed a crime.
[50:33.670 --> 50:36.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: If a corporation robs you of service for a week, it doesn't matter.
[50:36.390 --> 50:37.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can't even complain about it.
[50:37.570 --> 50:39.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: So it's like, you know, totally different rules.
[50:40.290 --> 50:41.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm very bitter about this.
[50:41.610 --> 50:52.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: The latest analysis that I've heard concerning what Sony is trying to do with Connectix and their cases, is they're basically, and this ties to a question that Bernie had concerning whether or not there were any copy control mechanisms.
[50:53.890 --> 51:06.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: What they're trying to do, I think, is they're going to try to tie this up in court, and I think they can, long enough so that by the time a definitive answer comes down, Sony will have already released the latest...
[51:08.050 --> 51:08.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: PlayStation 2.
[51:09.030 --> 51:09.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Exactly.
[51:09.430 --> 51:14.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I can guarantee you that that will have any number of measures that will prevent this from happening.
[51:14.950 --> 51:18.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, which will make it enforceable under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[51:18.550 --> 51:19.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, sure.
[51:19.490 --> 51:24.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm sure Sony has crashed alien spaceship technology where they can just make it so that it's impossible.
[51:24.970 --> 51:33.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, maybe there's something on the discs themselves that will just prevent it from being, you know, something physical on the disc itself, like a hologram or something, who knows.
[51:34.570 --> 51:36.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: But that wouldn't surprise me.
[51:36.230 --> 51:37.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I think that's their strategy.
[51:37.690 --> 51:40.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's basically keep this in court for as many months as it takes.
[51:41.330 --> 51:47.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm sure they're feverishly working to make PlayStation, the next generation PlayStation, immune to this.
[51:48.270 --> 51:48.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[51:48.630 --> 51:48.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: Alrighty.
[51:49.090 --> 51:49.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thanks for the info.
[51:50.470 --> 51:51.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hey, Scott, email me.
[51:51.650 --> 51:52.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, take care.
[51:52.490 --> 51:52.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: Great.
[51:53.510 --> 51:55.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: I needed to get reminded of that.
[51:55.890 --> 51:56.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, of course.
[51:56.250 --> 51:57.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: I can't email anybody.
[51:58.130 --> 51:58.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Actually, maybe I can.
[51:59.130 --> 52:00.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Maybe the system is off now.
[52:00.810 --> 52:01.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, it'll bounce, won't it?
[52:01.590 --> 52:02.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's that?
[52:02.450 --> 52:04.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: It'll bounce if he emails me at 2600.
[52:04.590 --> 52:07.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it'll bounce there and it'll bounce all over the place.
[52:07.150 --> 52:08.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we're going to try and fix the bouncing and stuff.
[52:08.830 --> 52:09.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: We were talking earlier.
[52:09.590 --> 52:12.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're going to try and fix the Atlantic too.
[52:13.330 --> 52:14.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm not taking part in that.
[52:15.710 --> 52:16.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're driving.
[52:16.910 --> 52:17.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: I ain't driving anyway.
[52:17.910 --> 52:18.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're driving and...
[52:18.990 --> 52:20.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: I use the word ain't on the air.
[52:20.690 --> 52:20.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Geez.
[52:21.870 --> 52:22.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Alright.
[52:22.450 --> 52:23.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-219-2900.
[52:23.750 --> 52:24.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[52:24.370 --> 52:25.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on the air.
[52:25.950 --> 52:26.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hello.
[52:26.650 --> 52:26.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[52:27.170 --> 52:27.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, hi.
[52:27.790 --> 52:30.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: If I'm not mistaken, this is a Connectix case.
[52:31.130 --> 52:33.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is only an overturning of a preliminary injunction.
[52:33.750 --> 52:34.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Isn't that right?
[52:35.090 --> 52:35.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: You got me.
[52:36.670 --> 52:37.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have to look into it.
[52:37.930 --> 52:40.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because I think what this means is that...
[52:40.510 --> 52:42.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Reverse and remand the preliminary injunction on sales.
[52:42.850 --> 52:42.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[52:43.090 --> 52:43.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[52:43.630 --> 52:49.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: What it seems to me is this is actually good news for you at the moment because you have a similar case.
[52:49.510 --> 52:49.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[52:50.210 --> 52:53.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: In the long run though, the case still has to be tried.
[52:53.610 --> 52:54.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[52:55.270 --> 52:55.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[52:55.770 --> 52:55.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's it.
[52:56.250 --> 53:01.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, yeah, there might be, you know, one trial that happens before us or we might have trials at the same time.
[53:01.210 --> 53:01.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Who knows?
[53:01.970 --> 53:05.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: We might wind up deciding the, you know, the precedent for them.
[53:05.230 --> 53:05.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: Their case, yeah.
[53:05.950 --> 53:06.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[53:06.990 --> 53:07.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, that's it.
[53:07.910 --> 53:08.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thanks for the info.
[53:08.510 --> 53:08.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[53:09.210 --> 53:10.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, if that's the case, he's absolutely right.
[53:10.590 --> 53:10.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[53:10.870 --> 53:11.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[53:11.330 --> 53:11.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on the air.
[53:11.690 --> 53:12.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[53:12.310 --> 53:13.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd just like to give out my email address.
[53:16.670 --> 53:17.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: What are we going to do about this?
[53:18.190 --> 53:18.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, my God.
[53:18.450 --> 53:18.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know.
[53:18.950 --> 53:19.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: What are we going to do about this?
[53:19.910 --> 53:21.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Our hands are really tied.
[53:21.310 --> 53:25.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's gotten to the point where, you know, to not do something makes us look bad.
[53:25.770 --> 53:26.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know?
[53:26.350 --> 53:27.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have to act.
[53:28.450 --> 53:28.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[53:28.870 --> 53:29.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll talk after this.
[53:29.490 --> 53:29.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Go ahead, act.
[53:29.990 --> 53:30.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[53:30.210 --> 53:30.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've got to do something.
[53:31.590 --> 53:32.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[53:32.290 --> 53:32.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[53:32.870 --> 53:33.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on the air.
[53:34.210 --> 53:34.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello.
[53:34.670 --> 53:36.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's a couple things I want to talk about.
[53:36.450 --> 53:38.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, get on the phone, not the speakerphone.
[53:38.770 --> 53:39.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sorry.
[53:39.230 --> 53:39.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[53:39.550 --> 53:39.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry.
[53:39.910 --> 53:41.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've been having a lot of phone problems anyway.
[53:41.670 --> 53:41.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[53:43.270 --> 53:45.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: One, I was part of your leaf-winning campaign.
[53:46.110 --> 53:46.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[53:46.630 --> 53:48.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I had some great results.
[53:48.310 --> 53:51.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: My friends and I stood in front of the movie theater on 86th Street.
[53:51.470 --> 53:51.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, cool.
[53:52.090 --> 53:54.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we actually spoke to a film producer.
[53:55.290 --> 53:55.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Really?
[53:55.870 --> 53:55.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[53:55.970 --> 54:00.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: He was probably like an indie film producer though, but he said he was a member of the MPAA.
[54:00.490 --> 54:00.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[54:01.310 --> 54:05.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we talked to another member of the MPAA who is an actor.
[54:05.790 --> 54:06.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: He's kind of famous.
[54:07.110 --> 54:07.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: See?
[54:07.490 --> 54:08.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're out there.
[54:08.430 --> 54:08.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[54:09.550 --> 54:10.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: And he...
[54:10.430 --> 54:12.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: He wholeheartedly agrees.
[54:12.650 --> 54:17.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: He said it's being dominated by gigantic companies when it's meant to be for the filmmakers.
[54:17.770 --> 54:18.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it really...
[54:18.550 --> 54:19.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's being dominated.
[54:19.830 --> 54:24.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you know, we need to get people from the MPAA that believe this to actually sign on.
[54:24.630 --> 54:28.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'd like to see somebody who is, you know, fairly well-known somewhere.
[54:28.550 --> 54:31.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, they won't be part of the MPAA for much longer after they do that.
[54:31.950 --> 54:32.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, they will be blackballed.
[54:32.970 --> 54:33.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Exactly.
[54:33.650 --> 54:34.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, then they have to...
[54:34.650 --> 54:36.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Look, do these guys have any guts or not?
[54:36.530 --> 54:39.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, are they willing to stand up to some monolithic entity like this?
[54:39.250 --> 54:42.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, I think there are people out there that have some guts, you know?
[54:42.410 --> 54:48.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: And then we need some of them to stand up and put their name on our site and say, yeah, we're with you guys and these people suck.
[54:49.130 --> 54:49.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we need.
[54:50.350 --> 54:53.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Weren't there a few people in the motion picture industry during the 50s that tried that?
[54:54.170 --> 54:57.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, well, yeah, yeah, they're blacklisted.
[54:57.590 --> 55:05.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the thing is, there are people now that say those people, you know, were courageous, and this is their chance to be courageous too.
[55:06.010 --> 55:10.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: So I'm calling on MPAA members who might side with us to step forward.
[55:10.850 --> 55:11.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: What do you mean name one of them?
[55:11.710 --> 55:12.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know who they are yet.
[55:13.010 --> 55:14.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, one of the ones from the 50s.
[55:14.690 --> 55:15.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: One of the ones from the 50s?
[55:15.930 --> 55:18.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: That seemed to be so memorable for their courage.
[55:19.030 --> 55:20.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wasn't Zero Mostel one of them?
[55:20.430 --> 55:23.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: There are lots of, lots of, lots of actors, lots of writers.
[55:24.250 --> 55:24.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[55:24.590 --> 55:25.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, they're like, you know, films.
[55:26.110 --> 55:27.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think Woody Allen did a film about this too.
[55:28.030 --> 55:28.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[55:28.630 --> 55:29.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: Used nothing but...
[55:29.510 --> 55:32.530]  [SPEAKER_16]: You remember Woody Allen, but you don't remember like more than one person who was on them.
[55:32.530 --> 55:32.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: I wasn't around them.
[55:33.030 --> 55:33.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: None of us were alive.
[55:33.910 --> 55:35.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, that's the thing, you know.
[55:35.750 --> 55:35.770]  That's cool.
[55:36.390 --> 55:39.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: And another thing, I went to Radio Shack.
[55:39.530 --> 55:41.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I wanted to buy a certain part.
[55:41.410 --> 55:42.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, it was a crystal, I think.
[55:42.790 --> 55:43.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: An oscillating crystal.
[55:43.710 --> 55:43.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-oh.
[55:44.270 --> 55:47.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I was told that I could not purchase this oscillating crystal.
[55:48.070 --> 55:51.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then I went home and I called customer support.
[55:51.270 --> 55:51.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[55:51.830 --> 55:55.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I said, I was told I can't buy an oscillating crystal from them.
[55:55.890 --> 56:00.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: And to my knowledge, oscillating crystals are pretty innocuous on their own.
[56:00.710 --> 56:01.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, um...
[56:01.210 --> 56:06.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: You were purchasing it to put into a computer motherboard in order to accelerate its processing capability, correct?
[56:06.610 --> 56:07.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[56:08.990 --> 56:11.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, it doesn't do a lot of things that you might think it does.
[56:12.070 --> 56:12.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[56:13.010 --> 56:14.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, 46, speed it up.
[56:14.750 --> 56:18.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did you call 1-800-THE-SHACK and try to order it through their mail order department?
[56:19.110 --> 56:21.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think I'm going to do that.
[56:21.150 --> 56:22.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, I talked to them.
[56:23.750 --> 56:32.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Apparently, if the retailer thinks it's going to be used for an illegal purpose, they can refuse to sell it.
[56:33.110 --> 56:34.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did the retailer tell you this?
[56:34.570 --> 56:34.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: What?
[56:34.810 --> 56:37.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did the retailer ask you anything?
[56:37.170 --> 56:38.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what are you going to do with this?
[56:38.310 --> 56:38.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: No!
[56:38.330 --> 56:40.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: He just said, uh, yeah, I'd like to actually...
[56:40.550 --> 56:45.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: I said I'd like to order a crystal because I talked to him earlier and he said, sure.
[56:45.530 --> 56:47.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he just said, no.
[56:47.730 --> 56:48.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, why not?
[56:49.050 --> 56:52.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he said, you need to be a certified technician to buy this part.
[56:52.510 --> 56:53.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, please.
[56:53.730 --> 56:54.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, why?
[56:54.370 --> 56:56.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: You have to be a licensed crystal operator.
[56:56.770 --> 56:56.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[56:56.930 --> 56:57.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.
[56:58.410 --> 56:59.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: So anyway...
[56:59.130 --> 57:01.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, he can refuse to sell you something, you know.
[57:01.870 --> 57:04.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he can refuse to sell me something, but there's no grounds.
[57:04.750 --> 57:13.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: I walk into the store, and I ask for the crystal, and he processes somehow, kid, crystal, criminal?
[57:14.110 --> 57:15.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I just don't get it.
[57:16.330 --> 57:17.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's a good alliteration.
[57:17.430 --> 57:21.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, it's definitely the thought process at work there at some Radio Shacks.
[57:21.730 --> 57:21.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[57:21.850 --> 57:23.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe you could do like when people buy beer.
[57:24.130 --> 57:26.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, they stand outside like, hey, mister, will you buy me beer?
[57:26.950 --> 57:28.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hey, will you buy me a crystal?
[57:28.430 --> 57:30.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, you got me the wrong kind.
[57:30.310 --> 57:31.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: I need to oscillate in there.
[57:31.330 --> 57:31.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, go back in there.
[57:32.510 --> 57:33.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: What are you going to use this for?
[57:33.670 --> 57:34.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're not going to get drunk, are you?
[57:35.070 --> 57:35.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, man.
[57:35.690 --> 57:47.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm flipping through the RadioShack.com catalog, which is a much fatter catalog than a regular store catalog, and it seems to skip over a particular frequency that you might have been interested in.
[57:48.090 --> 57:48.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[57:48.690 --> 57:48.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: I like that.
[57:48.930 --> 57:50.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: I noticed that, too, actually.
[57:50.590 --> 57:54.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a conspicuously absent frequency in their list of...
[57:54.370 --> 58:02.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm pretty sure they actually have that crystal, because I spoke to somebody at RadioShack, and they said, yes, we do carry that crystal, and we can buy it for you.
[58:02.790 --> 58:06.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: Of course they carry it, because it has other uses than what they think you're going to use it for.
[58:06.710 --> 58:07.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Other uses.
[58:07.450 --> 58:09.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: We should sell crystals on the black market, you know?
[58:10.370 --> 58:11.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Just hook people up.
[58:11.810 --> 58:13.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is going to be one of the longest in-jokes in history.
[58:13.790 --> 58:16.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're going to get so many emails like, what the heck are you guys talking about?
[58:16.590 --> 58:18.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's called Mauser Electronics.
[58:18.410 --> 58:19.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: They will sell you one.
[58:19.810 --> 58:19.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[58:20.130 --> 58:21.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Can't you just order some of this stuff online?
[58:21.970 --> 58:22.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[58:22.570 --> 58:23.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: DigiKey is nice.
[58:24.110 --> 58:29.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's why the internet has to be regulated, because kids can go out there and get crystals without anybody overseeing them or saying no.
[58:30.450 --> 58:31.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Think about that.
[58:31.410 --> 58:31.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's horrible.
[58:32.790 --> 58:33.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thanks for the call.
[58:33.410 --> 58:33.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've got to run.
[58:34.130 --> 58:34.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[58:34.730 --> 58:34.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[58:35.030 --> 58:35.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Take care.
[58:36.470 --> 58:38.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Should we say disclaimer or something now?
[58:38.450 --> 58:39.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Disclaimer for what?
[58:39.390 --> 58:40.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: People want to buy crystals.
[58:40.690 --> 58:41.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, come on.
[58:41.650 --> 58:43.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's get with it here.
[58:43.510 --> 58:44.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Crystals have magical properties.
[58:45.030 --> 58:45.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[58:45.370 --> 58:45.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, boy.
[58:46.050 --> 58:46.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's going to be harder.
[58:46.850 --> 58:47.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[58:47.050 --> 58:48.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: It could be from the West Coast.
[58:48.510 --> 58:50.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: They're into that whole amber crystal.
[58:51.750 --> 58:52.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Exactly.
[58:52.370 --> 58:55.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's going to be harder to get a soldering gun than it is a real gun.
[58:55.310 --> 58:55.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: One more call.
[58:55.930 --> 58:56.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's go over here.
[58:57.190 --> 58:57.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[58:57.770 --> 58:58.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on the air.
[58:59.570 --> 58:59.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hello.
[59:00.150 --> 59:00.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi.
[59:00.370 --> 59:00.730]  [SPEAKER_00]: How are you?
[59:00.730 --> 59:01.170]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi.
[59:01.830 --> 59:06.910]  [SPEAKER_00]: I heard how upset you were with the Atlantic, but I wanted to find out what you thought about Roadrunner.
[59:07.050 --> 59:11.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: I just got it hooked up through Time Warner Cable on Saturday, and I love it.
[59:11.950 --> 59:14.390]  [SPEAKER_00]: I asked them about the security concerns.
[59:14.830 --> 59:22.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: They said, and I'm just going to give you verbatim, that the IP changes every day, so it shouldn't be a problem.
[59:22.990 --> 59:24.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know.
[59:24.190 --> 59:25.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know better than I do, but...
[59:25.270 --> 59:26.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a problem in itself.
[59:27.350 --> 59:27.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[59:27.590 --> 59:29.710]  [SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't affect me.
[59:29.810 --> 59:31.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's always on.
[59:31.270 --> 59:31.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: I turn it on.
[59:31.850 --> 59:33.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to enter in any codes or anything.
[59:34.150 --> 59:35.450]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it races.
[59:35.450 --> 59:38.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's a million times faster than I'm used to.
[59:38.490 --> 59:39.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, you're going to get spoiled now.
[59:39.690 --> 59:40.370]  [SPEAKER_00]: I am spoiled.
[59:40.710 --> 59:41.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[59:41.150 --> 59:42.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, what's your uplink, though?
[59:43.610 --> 59:43.830]  [SPEAKER_00]: Huh?
[59:43.990 --> 59:44.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, your downlink.
[59:45.050 --> 59:46.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, it's basically...
[59:46.790 --> 59:50.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, with cable modems, you get one speed one way and one speed another way, right?
[59:50.970 --> 59:51.250]  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[59:51.430 --> 59:56.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I have to tell you, I'm not as sophisticated to be able to tell you how fast it's coming and how fast it's going out.
[59:56.530 --> 59:57.210]  [SPEAKER_00]: I cannot do that.
[59:57.270 --> 59:57.950]  [SPEAKER_00]: They should tell you that, though.
[59:57.950 --> 59:59.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you get the impression that it's faster one way?
[59:59.230 --> 01:00:00.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is it asymmetrical?
[01:00:00.290 --> 01:00:01.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is it faster one way than the other?
[01:00:02.710 --> 01:00:04.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't get a sense of that at all.
[01:00:04.690 --> 01:00:08.550]  [SPEAKER_00]: All I know is that it's a lot faster than I've been doing before.
[01:00:08.690 --> 01:00:09.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, for average web browsing...
[01:00:09.410 --> 01:00:14.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to deal with Bell Atlantic first to get them to make sure the line was kosher.
[01:00:15.450 --> 01:00:15.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a cable load.
[01:00:15.970 --> 01:00:17.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, if it's coming in over the cable...
[01:00:17.370 --> 01:00:17.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, it's a cable.
[01:00:18.150 --> 01:00:18.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm sorry.
[01:00:19.010 --> 01:00:20.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: I thought he said it was DSL.
[01:00:20.310 --> 01:00:20.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not mistaken.
[01:00:20.730 --> 01:00:20.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:00:21.670 --> 01:00:23.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, let's not talk about DSL anymore.
[01:00:23.470 --> 01:00:24.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've had my fill of it.
[01:00:24.750 --> 01:00:26.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's the taboo word of the week.
[01:00:26.110 --> 01:00:28.110]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to hang up if you have any comment on it.
[01:00:28.210 --> 01:00:29.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[01:00:29.630 --> 01:00:29.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you.
[01:00:29.690 --> 01:00:31.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have no comment on it because we're out of time.
[01:00:31.770 --> 01:00:32.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're out of time.
[01:00:32.690 --> 01:00:39.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, they told me never to even ask them for a cable modem, you know, in my area because we barely have phone service.
[01:00:39.510 --> 01:00:42.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: I just like that they managed to call it Roadrunner because it's Time Warner.
[01:00:42.810 --> 01:00:44.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: I guess that's the only reason I got rid of that.
[01:00:44.890 --> 01:00:45.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:00:47.210 --> 01:00:49.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, well, that's it for this week.
[01:00:49.630 --> 01:00:51.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bernie S., thanks for lending your expertise.
[01:00:51.970 --> 01:00:52.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please.
[01:00:52.530 --> 01:00:53.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Isaac, thanks for stopping by.
[01:00:53.690 --> 01:00:54.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for PCS for cutting us off.
[01:00:54.530 --> 01:00:55.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have no expertise.
[01:00:55.350 --> 01:00:59.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, sprint PCS didn't cut us off for at least a few minutes.
[01:01:00.030 --> 01:01:09.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Next week at this time, I'll either be in jail because I will have murdered somebody at the Bell Atlantic Central Office or I actually will be enjoying SDSL for the first time in my life.
[01:01:09.990 --> 01:01:10.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[01:01:10.170 --> 01:01:11.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll see.
[01:01:11.350 --> 01:01:11.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good night.