Off The Hook - 2000-04-25

[00:16.050 --> 00:17.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi, I'm Brooke.
[00:17.430 --> 00:18.450]  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I'm Naima.
[00:18.730 --> 00:19.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, this is Jaliz.
[00:19.870 --> 00:20.250]  [SPEAKER_00]: What's up?
[00:20.250 --> 00:20.770]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Andrea.
[00:21.070 --> 00:21.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, I'm Anthony.
[00:22.510 --> 00:24.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we're Youth Pulse.
[00:24.530 --> 00:28.930]  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM Pacifica Radio.
[00:31.070 --> 00:37.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'll keep my cool, but I'm feeling, I try to say goodbye.
[00:40.750 --> 00:45.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI in New York, as you may have just heard.
[00:45.970 --> 00:52.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's coming up on 8 o'clock on a Tuesday night, which means, once again, it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:00.000 --> 01:04.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:05.420 --> 01:10.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: I cut myself off shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[01:10.700 --> 01:15.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[01:15.860 --> 01:18.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Funding it bomb for the best, expect the worst.
[01:18.940 --> 01:20.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: I hope that's understood.
[01:21.220 --> 01:21.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Funding it bomb!
[03:12.000 --> 03:13.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a good evening to everybody.
[03:13.320 --> 03:14.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is Off the Hook.
[03:14.800 --> 03:22.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for the next hour, as we talk about issues of technology, privacy, hackers, and whatnot.
[03:23.220 --> 03:25.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, hey, Claude, how are you doing?
[03:25.780 --> 03:26.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm okay.
[03:26.600 --> 03:27.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: I thought you'd by surprise, didn't I?
[03:27.700 --> 03:30.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, I'm surprised to be here and to be...
[03:30.240 --> 03:32.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm surprised to suddenly see you show up like that.
[03:33.020 --> 03:34.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's been a while.
[03:34.580 --> 03:34.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sometime.
[03:35.180 --> 03:37.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for rescuing me before I got locked in a room.
[03:38.020 --> 03:39.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, in a room with an open door.
[03:39.960 --> 03:41.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, thanks very much.
[03:41.240 --> 03:44.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, open door policies aren't always the best ones.
[03:44.800 --> 03:46.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, it didn't work in this case.
[03:46.300 --> 03:46.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Isaac, how are you doing?
[03:47.060 --> 03:48.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm over here in the whatnot department.
[03:48.720 --> 03:49.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.
[03:49.560 --> 03:51.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, um, it's been interesting.
[03:51.720 --> 03:52.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, last week...
[03:52.520 --> 03:53.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, first of all, let me show you what I have.
[03:53.960 --> 03:55.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, I was going to comment on that.
[03:55.480 --> 03:56.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, isn't it nice?
[03:56.100 --> 03:56.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a very nice-looking shirt.
[03:57.060 --> 03:57.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you very much.
[03:57.840 --> 03:58.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you very much.
[03:58.420 --> 04:00.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, the back is just as nice as the front, except it's different.
[04:00.960 --> 04:02.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Does the back have telephones on it, or...?
[04:02.560 --> 04:03.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, no.
[04:04.300 --> 04:05.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'll show you the back.
[04:05.200 --> 04:05.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, uh...
[04:05.560 --> 04:06.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's got that picture on it, see?
[04:07.400 --> 04:07.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, hey!
[04:08.000 --> 04:08.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Isn't that cool?
[04:08.640 --> 04:09.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's not bad.
[04:09.120 --> 04:16.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: The MPAA shirts, the anti-MPAA shirts are out, and, uh, yes, you can, uh, you can now get one of your own and voice your opinion.
[04:16.740 --> 04:21.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we've been, we've been seeing Stop the MPAA bumper stickers showing up on vehicles all over the place.
[04:21.600 --> 04:27.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not always the vehicles are the people who put them there, too, I might add, but, you know, sometimes limousines and taxis, I've noticed them on.
[04:27.760 --> 04:29.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, they're out there.
[04:29.540 --> 04:30.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're getting out there.
[04:30.260 --> 04:32.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we've made enough of them, so that makes sense that they should get out there.
[04:32.960 --> 04:49.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, the shirts, though, we just got the shirts today, and, uh, if you ordered one and you're starting to cuss about not getting it, uh, well, you'll get it real soon, because, uh, we, we just got a whole lot of them, and we're going to be spending the next couple of days doing nothing but mailing them out and,
[04:49.740 --> 04:51.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh, making friends at the post office.
[04:52.620 --> 05:05.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, these, uh, these shirts, of course, are, uh, in response to the lawsuit against us by the Motion Picture Association of America having to do with, uh, with the cracking of the DVD encryption, the program known as DECSS.
[05:06.280 --> 05:22.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you haven't heard about that, you don't know what we're talking about, I strongly suggest you listen to some back shows, which are up on our website, www.2600.com slash off the hook, or simply read the current edition of 2600, or just look around the net at other sources,
[05:22.100 --> 05:24.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: and you should find out everything there is to know about that.
[05:25.200 --> 05:27.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: We, we, we've spent a lot of shows talking about this.
[05:27.900 --> 05:29.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want to rehash old ground.
[05:29.920 --> 05:31.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but, you know, there is something interesting.
[05:31.900 --> 05:36.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Last week, right after we left the studio, we, uh, took a trip over to the paper store.
[05:36.980 --> 05:37.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.
[05:38.060 --> 05:38.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we bought a paper.
[05:39.100 --> 05:45.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: We bought a paper I don't usually buy, you know, USA Today, a piece of trash.
[05:47.380 --> 05:48.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, you're not going to get a disagreement here.
[05:49.300 --> 05:49.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good.
[05:49.800 --> 05:58.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because it is a piece of, I mean, you know, it's a, it's the same basic thing, no matter where you go, it's used basically for a dozen words or less.
[05:58.940 --> 06:04.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I have to try to find, uh, where they put the article.
[06:05.960 --> 06:07.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why don't you talk while I keep looking?
[06:07.780 --> 06:09.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's in, I think it's in lifestyles.
[06:09.520 --> 06:12.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's either in lifestyles or, or money.
[06:12.160 --> 06:12.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, it wouldn't be in money.
[06:12.920 --> 06:13.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: I guess it would be in lifestyles.
[06:14.080 --> 06:15.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, hacking is something of a lifestyle.
[06:16.040 --> 06:18.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but it's not about hacking, it's about the MPAA.
[06:18.460 --> 06:19.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's about the MPAA.
[06:19.600 --> 06:20.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Did they mention DCSS?
[06:21.180 --> 06:23.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, no, not specifically by now.
[06:23.100 --> 06:23.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I found it.
[06:23.780 --> 06:24.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: You got it.
[06:24.280 --> 06:25.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: How did I find it so fast?
[06:25.220 --> 06:25.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's amazing.
[06:26.120 --> 06:26.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, okay.
[06:27.200 --> 06:31.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, on page 3D of USA Today, Tuesday, April 18.
[06:31.620 --> 06:32.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: It just jumps out at you.
[06:32.720 --> 06:33.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it sure does.
[06:33.340 --> 06:38.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, under the, uh, the story, Pretty Ex-Spy Has an Eye on Tiny Tech.
[06:38.680 --> 06:40.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: It has nothing to do with the story, of course.
[06:40.720 --> 06:44.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, it's a subheading called, Hackers Hit Movie Industry Website.
[06:45.620 --> 06:46.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[06:46.120 --> 06:46.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: We did?
[06:46.680 --> 06:48.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was news to me, too.
[06:48.360 --> 06:48.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Listen to this.
[06:48.900 --> 07:02.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: The website of the Motion Picture Association of America, which has accused computer coders in court of attempting to illegally pirate movies, was partly brought down by hackers during parts of last week and on Monday.
[07:02.160 --> 07:08.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: According to the association, doesn't say that in a headline, according to the association, but that is all it's according to right now.
[07:08.500 --> 07:10.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Email and the website were restored by Monday afternoon.
[07:11.160 --> 07:18.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: First of all, their site, their site, for some reason, has been taken offline and it's been offline for weeks and nobody knows why.
[07:19.380 --> 07:21.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's very easy to say, oh yeah, hackers did this.
[07:21.940 --> 07:30.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: First of all, if somebody did it, all right, there are probably millions, if not billions of people who are pissed off at the Motion Picture Association of America right now.
[07:30.960 --> 07:33.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it could have been anybody that did that.
[07:33.980 --> 07:35.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: It could have been one of their ex-employees.
[07:35.220 --> 07:36.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: It could have been one of their current employees.
[07:36.640 --> 07:38.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: It could have been Jack Valente hitting the wrong key.
[07:38.960 --> 07:40.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's been known to happen.
[07:41.420 --> 07:48.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: But to say that it's related to the people that they're suing, you know, to imply that, that's just grossly irresponsible.
[07:48.720 --> 07:53.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And plus, if it is a denial of service attack, you don't take the site down for weeks.
[07:53.480 --> 07:57.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you can pretty much fix things in that period of time.
[07:57.640 --> 08:01.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are they that inept that they really just turned the thing off, unplugged it from the wall?
[08:01.720 --> 08:02.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: What did they do?
[08:03.100 --> 08:05.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: You need to hold a door open with something, you know.
[08:05.840 --> 08:07.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: See, now, we're paranoid.
[08:07.580 --> 08:08.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're ultra-paranoid people.
[08:08.960 --> 08:10.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: We see conspiracies around every corner.
[08:10.920 --> 08:11.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you mean?
[08:11.380 --> 08:12.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we do.
[08:12.160 --> 08:12.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: We do.
[08:13.280 --> 08:14.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: What motivation do you have?
[08:14.260 --> 08:15.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just seeing you in the room makes me paranoid.
[08:16.500 --> 08:22.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the point is, we don't go around saying that every bad thing that happens to us is because of the MPAA.
[08:23.420 --> 08:25.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it wouldn't be reasonable.
[08:25.860 --> 08:26.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: It just wouldn't be.
[08:27.060 --> 08:29.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Plus, we don't want to give them the satisfaction.
[08:31.060 --> 08:33.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, MPAA President Jack Valenti calls the attack vicious.
[08:34.020 --> 08:35.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: How do you know what kind of an attack it was?
[08:35.360 --> 08:36.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe it was a friendly attack.
[08:36.680 --> 08:38.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Might have been a friendly, nice attack, you know.
[08:39.120 --> 08:40.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe they had a lot of people hitting their site.
[08:41.080 --> 08:41.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: That could have been it.
[08:41.760 --> 08:45.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe they had more than ten people hit the site, and they didn't know what to do.
[08:45.180 --> 08:46.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: They thought it was a denial of service attack.
[08:47.380 --> 08:48.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: It had to be something like that.
[08:49.880 --> 08:53.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, MPAA spokesman Richard Taylor, he's a new person.
[08:54.260 --> 09:02.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Richard Taylor says the association was a victim of a denial of service attack in which a website is overwhelmed with traffic.
[09:03.560 --> 09:04.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[09:04.720 --> 09:06.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sounds like the LIE on a good morning.
[09:06.760 --> 09:10.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: The battle against piracy is not fought without making some enemies, Taylor said.
[09:11.960 --> 09:13.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: The battle of what?
[09:13.240 --> 09:14.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: The battle against piracy.
[09:14.300 --> 09:15.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Against piracy.
[09:15.360 --> 09:15.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, okay.
[09:17.760 --> 09:18.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, they will stoop to...
[09:18.900 --> 09:19.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who are they fighting?
[09:19.480 --> 09:19.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: All different...
[09:19.940 --> 09:20.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know what they're fighting.
[09:20.940 --> 09:22.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're fighting like little gremlins in their heads.
[09:23.080 --> 09:23.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I think they're doing.
[09:23.800 --> 09:26.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't aware that anyone here was actually doing pirating.
[09:26.180 --> 09:26.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[09:26.720 --> 09:27.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not about pirating.
[09:28.540 --> 09:29.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's certainly...
[09:29.640 --> 09:30.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's insane.
[09:30.340 --> 09:32.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we're not going to go over this all over again, because we've done it week after week.
[09:32.980 --> 09:34.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: People know what the case is about.
[09:34.660 --> 09:37.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you don't, please listen to the back issues of the show.
[09:37.380 --> 09:42.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, but speaking of denial of service attacks, Mafia Boy, you heard about this, right?
[09:42.840 --> 09:43.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[09:43.340 --> 09:44.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: A couple of things.
[09:44.120 --> 09:48.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: They tracked down Mafia Boy, and some interesting revelations came out of that, as you no doubt saw.
[09:49.240 --> 09:49.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which...
[09:49.640 --> 09:50.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: The ones involving his father?
[09:51.020 --> 09:51.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: No.
[09:51.380 --> 09:51.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, yeah.
[09:51.780 --> 09:52.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: There was his father, too.
[09:52.580 --> 09:54.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: It turned out to be a real Mafia man, apparently.
[09:56.140 --> 09:56.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Mafia dad.
[09:56.560 --> 09:57.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't know that.
[09:57.420 --> 09:59.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, we don't even know if there's such a thing as a Mafia.
[09:59.300 --> 10:00.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, here's the thing.
[10:00.980 --> 10:01.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here's the thing.
[10:02.660 --> 10:02.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: The...
[10:02.980 --> 10:05.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you check the 2600 website over the last week?
[10:05.700 --> 10:05.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: No.
[10:07.200 --> 10:08.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you do with your week, Isaac?
[10:08.420 --> 10:08.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you do?
[10:09.340 --> 10:09.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: I...
[10:09.660 --> 10:09.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.
[10:09.980 --> 10:14.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't check the websites of the things that, you know, that we do this show.
[10:14.760 --> 10:17.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: I disappear under the rock for the other...
[10:17.580 --> 10:18.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: No one sees you.
[10:18.340 --> 10:21.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: You only appear, you know, one night a week.
[10:21.160 --> 10:22.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: You disappear into the shadows.
[10:22.600 --> 10:24.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, this is the first Friday of the month at the meeting.
[10:24.460 --> 10:25.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I'm there, too.
[10:25.940 --> 10:26.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, okay.
[10:26.460 --> 10:27.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have to reserve my energy for that.
[10:28.960 --> 10:31.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Better start reserving for H2K, too.
[10:31.680 --> 10:31.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[10:31.940 --> 10:33.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Imagine you'd be making an appearance at that.
[10:33.780 --> 10:38.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, anyway, as it turns out, we just happen to have some interesting logs lying around.
[10:38.980 --> 10:51.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: See, back when Mafia Boy was first mentioned as the suspect, we thought it was kind of interesting because he was mentioned as a suspect with nothing more behind it other than the fact that somebody in an IRC chat room said that they did it.
[10:51.280 --> 10:51.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, that was it.
[10:52.080 --> 10:57.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And all of a sudden, Mafia Boy was the person that, you know, that was responsible for the whole thing.
[10:57.100 --> 10:58.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we thought, hey, this would be fun.
[10:58.960 --> 11:02.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why don't we get an IRC and use the nickname Mafia Boy and see what happens.
[11:02.560 --> 11:17.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Inside of 30 seconds, we're getting messages from all kinds of people wanting to know how we did it, why we did it, when we'll do it again, everything that you could possibly imagine we were getting, including a message from the very guy that claims to have tracked him down.
[11:18.280 --> 11:19.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, the very guy.
[11:19.160 --> 11:19.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who is this?
[11:19.880 --> 11:24.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: His name is Michael Lyle, and he goes by the IRC name I-C, I-C-E-E.
[11:25.660 --> 11:25.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hmm.
[11:26.580 --> 11:28.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And right away, we started getting messages from this person.
[11:28.860 --> 11:33.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And of course, he wanted us to verify our identity and asked us a certain question.
[11:33.300 --> 11:39.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we flip-flopped over that by simply giving him a piece of his information that we could only know if we were this person.
[11:39.840 --> 11:42.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: And actually, we were able to find it out just by looking him up.
[11:42.340 --> 11:43.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it took about 10 seconds.
[11:43.960 --> 11:47.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, yeah, it took about 10 seconds because I think there was another denial of service thing going on at the time.
[11:48.460 --> 11:52.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: But after we convinced him of our identity...
[11:53.180 --> 11:54.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, your assumed identity.
[11:54.700 --> 11:55.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we had a lot of fun.
[11:55.900 --> 11:56.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Had a lot of fun.
[11:56.860 --> 12:00.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And just basically talked to him for a long, long time.
[12:01.060 --> 12:03.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the logs are up on the 2600 site.
[12:04.120 --> 12:20.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it kind of throws a monkey wrench into the whole thing because, you know, if the guy is being pinned, you know, if this is being pinned on the guy because he boasted in an IRC chat room, well, look how easy it is to fool somebody just by saying you're this person.
[12:20.660 --> 12:21.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's all you have to do.
[12:21.640 --> 12:23.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And all of a sudden, you can have all kinds of crimes attributed to you.
[12:24.840 --> 12:26.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: This may very well be the person.
[12:26.260 --> 12:27.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: If it is the person, fine.
[12:27.620 --> 12:29.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, do whatever has to be done.
[12:29.280 --> 12:32.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think the person should be sent into prison.
[12:32.120 --> 12:35.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think the person should be, you know, dealt with in some way.
[12:35.380 --> 12:38.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not going to get into that because everybody has a different opinion on that.
[12:38.060 --> 12:42.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we certainly don't need the draconian type of penalties we have here.
[12:44.260 --> 12:48.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if that is the case, if it is the person, what's the evidence?
[12:48.720 --> 12:50.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, are we talking about logs here?
[12:50.940 --> 12:55.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are we talking about, you know, specific technical details that point to this person?
[12:55.700 --> 12:57.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, yeah, okay, fine.
[12:57.160 --> 12:59.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: If that is the case, show the evidence.
[12:59.540 --> 13:02.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, show the evidence whenever the evidence needs to be shown.
[13:03.360 --> 13:07.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if the evidence is only an IRC chat room, that's not going to cut it.
[13:07.460 --> 13:12.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that was the point we were trying to make is that it's ridiculously easy to fool people on the net.
[13:13.260 --> 13:15.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, you have to kind of know what you're talking about.
[13:15.880 --> 13:22.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm interested in something of a sub-point where supposedly there was a wiretap order put on this house.
[13:22.800 --> 13:23.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[13:23.300 --> 13:32.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the way they caught the guy's father was that while accumulating evidence against Mafia Boy, they listened to his dad order a hit on some other guy.
[13:32.700 --> 13:34.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if it was a hit so much or just...
[13:34.480 --> 13:35.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Just to harass him.
[13:35.560 --> 13:43.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the point is, in Canada, does a wiretap order, you know, is it exclusive to the target that you get the order on?
[13:43.240 --> 13:46.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or can you pick up little circumstantial bits and act on those?
[13:46.460 --> 13:47.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: See, I was wondering the same thing, actually.
[13:47.760 --> 13:52.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because, you know, in this country, you're supposed to limit it only to the person you're investigating.
[13:52.600 --> 13:55.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you have a search warrant, you go into someone's house, you're looking for X.
[13:55.940 --> 14:00.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you find Y, which also happens to be illegal, you don't have a search warrant for Y.
[14:00.300 --> 14:02.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you can go out and get one and come back.
[14:02.160 --> 14:05.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if you hear that somebody is going to be hurt, do you ignore that?
[14:06.480 --> 14:07.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's another...
[14:07.240 --> 14:10.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was like an ultimate dilemma they were facing right there.
[14:10.100 --> 14:13.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm actually interested in Canadian perspective on law in this regard.
[14:13.520 --> 14:26.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: But one thing I do admire them for up there is when they did catch the guy, Mafia boy that is, or believe they caught the guy, they weren't even talking about sending him away to prison for 20 years like we were in this country.
[14:27.120 --> 14:30.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were like, you know, this is a kid playing around if it's even that.
[14:30.820 --> 14:35.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, we'll deal with it in juvenile, you know, detention or whatever, whatever needs to be done.
[14:35.180 --> 14:39.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it just sounds so much more reasonable than the blood they're always calling for here.
[14:39.200 --> 14:43.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I remember when this first happened, you know, people were seeing red.
[14:43.900 --> 14:49.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were ready to kill this guy, you know, because their favorite corporate websites had been unavailable for a couple of hours or whatever.
[14:50.360 --> 14:56.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, the reaction from a lot of technical type people, let's basically fix the problem.
[14:56.780 --> 15:02.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's see how we can make sure this doesn't happen in the future, rather than, you know, throw more people in jail.
[15:02.580 --> 15:07.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now that they finally found the person, if they have indeed found the person, it seems like cooler heads are prevailing.
[15:07.340 --> 15:10.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think people aren't as angry as they were when it was actually taking place.
[15:10.540 --> 15:12.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Nice little pun there, cooler heads from Canada.
[15:13.460 --> 15:14.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's not what I meant.
[15:15.240 --> 15:15.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it worked.
[15:15.820 --> 15:18.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, yeah, so, interesting chain of events.
[15:19.480 --> 15:20.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Also on our website, we intercepted...
[15:21.520 --> 15:25.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, actually, I guess it's probably not the right word to use, because we don't want to be accused of all kinds of other things.
[15:25.540 --> 15:29.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: But there was a memo that was sent out by Michael Eisner, the head of Disney.
[15:29.780 --> 15:31.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Which kind of came your way.
[15:31.500 --> 15:36.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it kind of came our way from a sympathetic Disney employee, of which there are many, including some of them who wear outfits.
[15:38.060 --> 15:42.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they forwarded that to us, and it's now posted up on our site, along with our comments.
[15:42.220 --> 15:46.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he basically addresses the whole DVD issue and gets it completely wrong.
[15:48.180 --> 15:49.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, it's amusing.
[15:50.440 --> 15:55.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's pretty funny to see just where their heads are at, and what we have to deal with in the future.
[15:56.920 --> 15:58.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, yeah, Michael Eisner in his little memo.
[15:59.200 --> 16:00.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's up there on the site.
[16:00.400 --> 16:03.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, here's an interesting piece from...
[16:04.260 --> 16:04.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Question?
[16:04.940 --> 16:07.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was wondering what Walt would think about all this.
[16:07.520 --> 16:08.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.
[16:08.440 --> 16:11.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I think most people who actually were pioneers...
[16:11.940 --> 16:15.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't really say that because Thomas Edison was a pioneer, and he was a bit of a bastard, too.
[16:15.660 --> 16:16.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh...
[16:16.600 --> 16:17.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd like to think...
[16:17.220 --> 16:18.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Where did that come from?
[16:18.140 --> 16:18.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, he is.
[16:18.800 --> 16:21.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know what Thomas Edison did back in the 19-teens?
[16:21.880 --> 16:22.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that what you called him?
[16:22.900 --> 16:27.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: He basically made it so that if you were a filmmaker, you had to pay a fee.
[16:27.420 --> 16:30.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: You were not allowed to make a film unless you paid that fee.
[16:31.340 --> 16:32.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was illegal to make films.
[16:32.920 --> 16:34.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was a technology usage fee.
[16:35.100 --> 16:36.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, technology usage.
[16:36.160 --> 16:37.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, we see full circle.
[16:37.580 --> 16:38.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: You were using his cameras and his...
[16:38.760 --> 16:40.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, you weren't using his cameras.
[16:40.140 --> 16:41.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: You were just using, you know, the whole...
[16:41.880 --> 16:46.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Getting it to play in a theater, getting it to, you know, to be on...
[16:46.500 --> 16:51.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was really a horrible thing, and it was finally overturned.
[16:51.260 --> 16:52.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, there's a lot of stories.
[16:52.420 --> 16:52.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of people were...
[16:52.940 --> 16:55.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of independent people were kind of squashed by that.
[16:55.720 --> 16:58.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, I don't look on him as a good person.
[16:58.720 --> 16:58.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sorry.
[16:59.320 --> 16:59.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not after that.
[17:00.960 --> 17:05.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, yeah, so I'd like to think that the pioneers get it right, but they don't always.
[17:05.340 --> 17:09.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes they just turn into the worst enemy that they could possibly be.
[17:11.860 --> 17:15.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here's an interesting kind of parallel story here.
[17:15.420 --> 17:17.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's about CD piracy.
[17:18.220 --> 17:18.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now...
[17:18.540 --> 17:18.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Audio CDs.
[17:18.820 --> 17:21.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, or alleged audio CD piracy.
[17:21.780 --> 17:28.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: At the heart of two music recording industry trials is whether digital piracy will make people stop buying CDs.
[17:29.380 --> 17:35.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: As the judge prepares to rule on the first of the lawsuit, statistics show that people are buying more albums than ever.
[17:36.200 --> 17:36.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Remarkable, isn't it?
[17:36.940 --> 17:37.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Isn't that something?
[17:37.580 --> 17:37.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[17:38.240 --> 17:46.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: The world of brick and mortar retail looks to be in fine shape, which should be a big boost for everyone in the music business.
[17:47.600 --> 17:56.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Soundscan sales figures, which are measured by tracking purchasing by recording barcodes, show that the music industry has grown about 8% over last year's first quarter.
[17:56.900 --> 18:03.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's good for the digital distribution businesses, mp3.com and Napster, who are facing down the recording industry in court and do...
[18:03.740 --> 18:07.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: and probably do the fears that digital music piracy would hurt sales of CDs.
[18:07.760 --> 18:11.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't even know if you want to call it piracy unless you're actually burning it onto a CD and selling it.
[18:12.000 --> 18:17.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I consider piracy, just listening to something I don't necessarily consider piracy.
[18:19.920 --> 18:22.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: But there's a really good comment in here.
[18:22.780 --> 18:23.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ah, yes.
[18:23.760 --> 18:25.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know how the record industry responds to this?
[18:26.020 --> 18:27.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: How does the record industry respond to this?
[18:27.740 --> 18:39.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Alex Walsh, vice president of market research for the recording industry of America, said, if we grew 3% as an industry, maybe we could have grown twice as much.
[18:39.520 --> 18:41.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's no way to tell just how much we could have lost.
[18:42.080 --> 18:46.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, even a gain is a loss to them, because they say that, yeah, we're losing.
[18:47.140 --> 18:52.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, if we're actually gaining, that means we're not gaining as much as we would have gained had we not lost.
[18:54.280 --> 18:55.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Lost the...
[18:55.080 --> 18:56.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Don't bother trying to figure it out.
[18:57.120 --> 19:00.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's unbelievable.
[19:00.800 --> 19:01.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, it's a losing gain?
[19:02.620 --> 19:06.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they seem to think that they would have gained more money if it wasn't for MP3.
[19:06.640 --> 19:07.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: It makes no sense.
[19:07.800 --> 19:15.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's completely against logic, because the more people who are listening to something, the more people will hear about it, and will talk about it.
[19:15.780 --> 19:21.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, yeah, you can say everybody's going to go out there and buy pirated versions, but, you know, I don't think that's the way most people work.
[19:21.960 --> 19:22.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I really don't.
[19:23.300 --> 19:24.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe I'm just a fool.
[19:24.460 --> 19:27.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe I just, you know, think too highly of people, but...
[19:27.240 --> 19:28.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: How about this?
[19:28.280 --> 19:33.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hard rock band Limp Bizkit has teamed up with controversial Internet company Napster, Inc.
[19:33.240 --> 19:34.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: to launch a free U.S.
[19:34.720 --> 19:39.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: concert tour, and the group's singer Monday criticized fellow artists to have accused Napster of promoting music piracy.
[19:40.460 --> 19:46.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Napster allows users to trade and search for MP3s, free downloadable files of musical performances.
[19:46.720 --> 19:53.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: A fan can type in the name of the desired song, click on the desired version, instantly download it, all for free.
[19:53.860 --> 20:04.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Music Industries trade group, Recording Industry Association of America, sued Napster in December, charging that the San Mateo, California company's website promotes piracy and copyright infringement.
[20:04.480 --> 20:11.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Rock fan Metallica, rap pioneer Dr. Dre have also waded in against Napster in recent weeks.
[20:11.620 --> 20:19.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the controversy has washed over Limp Bizkit singer Fred Durst, who told a news conference that Napster was a great way for fans to sample an album before buying it.
[20:19.940 --> 20:24.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: I would think the only people worried about that are people that are really worried about their bank accounts, he said.
[20:25.240 --> 20:32.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: In the opposite corner, Metallica drummer Lars Ulrich, as we mentioned last week, accused Napster and several universities that allow access to it of trafficking stolen goods.
[20:33.840 --> 20:37.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a couple of universities have blocked access, but you know, USC is refusing to do that.
[20:37.800 --> 20:38.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, they're refusing.
[20:38.160 --> 20:39.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're refusing to block it.
[20:39.100 --> 20:42.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: They say there's a legitimate purpose for this program, and I wholeheartedly agree.
[20:43.340 --> 20:48.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nobody, I think, is going to defend someone who goes out and copies music, burns up the CD, and then starts selling it.
[20:50.320 --> 20:52.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Obviously, that's profiting from somebody.
[20:52.460 --> 21:00.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: But to listen to a song over the Internet that you either have or don't have, I consider that the equivalent of reading.
[21:02.320 --> 21:06.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're checking something out that you want to hear, or you want to share with somebody else.
[21:06.840 --> 21:09.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if it's really, really good, you'll buy your own copy.
[21:09.720 --> 21:11.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you really want it, you'll buy your own copy.
[21:11.480 --> 21:15.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: There are other things other than just the sound the music makes that you get when you buy something.
[21:15.680 --> 21:20.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: For instance, let's say that, for me, it's a lot easier to have something on CD.
[21:21.220 --> 21:22.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I can take it with me.
[21:22.620 --> 21:24.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can listen to it wherever I go.
[21:24.540 --> 21:27.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, as I look around the studio, I don't see an MP3 player anymore.
[21:27.360 --> 21:27.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[21:28.780 --> 21:30.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're playing a CD right now.
[21:30.680 --> 21:31.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hear that?
[21:31.980 --> 21:32.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a CD.
[21:33.520 --> 21:34.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not an MP3, that's a CD.
[21:35.820 --> 21:40.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the only way we could play that was by me bringing that CD in.
[21:42.080 --> 21:55.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, I suppose what I could have done, I could have gone onto the net, found that particular track, downloaded it, burned it to a CD, and then brought it in that way, and saved myself the money I spent getting this.
[21:56.080 --> 22:04.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And also, by the same token, robbed the artist of their 20 cents or whatever the record company gives them after after they take their cut.
[22:05.340 --> 22:10.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: But for me to do that is more of a pain than it's worth.
[22:10.900 --> 22:11.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Therefore...
[22:11.260 --> 22:17.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I would hope that it's not the inconvenience that is prompting you to not engage in that sort of activity.
[22:17.800 --> 22:18.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, definitely not.
[22:18.320 --> 22:22.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I'm saying, you know, obviously, I wouldn't do it that way to start with because...
[22:23.660 --> 22:26.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, actually, I would for the technical purpose of it, yeah.
[22:26.900 --> 22:27.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd like to...
[22:27.520 --> 22:28.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: As an experiment.
[22:28.400 --> 22:30.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, throw an mp3 on the air, that kind of thing.
[22:30.740 --> 22:38.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: But as far as my own personal library, no, I wouldn't go out and just burn a bunch of CDs to, you know, to rip people off.
[22:38.900 --> 22:40.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, that's not what it's about.
[22:40.460 --> 22:42.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's about, you know, being able to listen to things.
[22:43.520 --> 22:46.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that's, you know, it's a fairly simple concept.
[22:47.760 --> 22:56.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, the thing is, record companies have to realize that, you know, CDs are too expensive, bring down the price a little bit, less people will do this.
[22:57.300 --> 23:06.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: You spend $15, $16 on a single CD, yeah, you know, you kind of feel like you're being ripped off there and maybe you should, you know, benefit from it somehow.
[23:07.060 --> 23:17.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: On the other hand, it is the prerogative of the artist, how he wants to distribute his music, what fees he wishes to charge.
[23:17.260 --> 23:17.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[23:17.500 --> 23:23.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's his prerogative to jump off a cliff, you know, and kiss his musical career goodbye by pricing it out of the range of people.
[23:23.960 --> 23:26.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: But there tends to be a reaction.
[23:26.780 --> 23:29.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the point is, and I think the guy from Limp Bizkit made this very well.
[23:30.840 --> 23:32.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who is Limp Bizkit, by the way?
[23:32.440 --> 23:34.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a hard rock band, that's all you need to know.
[23:34.780 --> 23:34.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[23:35.100 --> 23:40.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And in fact, I'm going to buy, right now I'm going to buy one of their CDs later on.
[23:40.840 --> 23:43.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: When we're out later, you know, carousing around.
[23:43.580 --> 23:46.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're going to go to a record store, and I'm going to buy a Limp Bizkit CD.
[23:46.600 --> 23:47.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you can watch me.
[23:47.660 --> 23:51.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And next week, come on the air and tell people that in fact I did that.
[23:52.020 --> 23:53.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Am I going to have to listen to it, or...?
[23:54.420 --> 23:55.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you know what?
[23:55.140 --> 23:56.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Next week, we're going to play it on the air.
[23:56.540 --> 23:56.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: How about that?
[23:56.960 --> 23:57.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I've never heard of it before.
[23:58.200 --> 23:59.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: All of this...
[23:59.200 --> 24:05.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: All of this is because they took a courageous stand and actually bucked the trend of greed.
[24:06.100 --> 24:07.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, I found the quote.
[24:07.200 --> 24:16.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Internet is here, and anybody trying to fight that, which would be people who are living by certain standards and practices of the record industry, those are the only people who are scared and threatened.
[24:18.000 --> 24:24.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, asked to comment specifically on Metallica's stands, he replied, I don't think anything about what Metallica thinks.
[24:26.200 --> 24:27.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's my kind of band.
[24:28.740 --> 24:31.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, this is almost as tough as the gaining loss thing.
[24:32.380 --> 24:32.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[24:34.280 --> 24:34.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, regardless.
[24:35.080 --> 24:38.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, I'm going to hear Limp Bizkit next week, and they're...
[24:38.540 --> 24:41.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and any other artists that want to jump on board...
[24:41.320 --> 24:42.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, what is their genre again?
[24:42.420 --> 24:43.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're heavy metal or hard rock?
[24:44.180 --> 24:44.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know what?
[24:44.720 --> 24:45.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just going to surprise you.
[24:45.740 --> 24:46.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: How about that?
[24:46.360 --> 24:51.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, my familiarization with modern music...
[24:51.420 --> 24:54.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you might need to bring your V-chip with you, you know, just to protect your head.
[24:55.000 --> 24:55.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's not...
[24:55.500 --> 24:56.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's just that...
[24:56.400 --> 24:56.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, regardless.
[24:57.720 --> 24:58.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[24:58.240 --> 24:59.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, actually, that's all I have.
[24:59.820 --> 25:05.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I wanted to allocate a little extra time today, before we start taking phone calls, 212-209-2900.
[25:06.140 --> 25:11.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because, Isaac, I believe at the end of the show last week, you brought up some questions with about 30 seconds left that I was unable to answer.
[25:11.920 --> 25:13.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, let's just bring down the music.
[25:13.980 --> 25:14.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we're going to come back.
[25:14.180 --> 25:15.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: The music is off.
[25:15.860 --> 25:16.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: The floor is yours.
[25:16.600 --> 25:16.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: The floor is yours.
[25:16.840 --> 25:17.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Ask your questions.
[25:19.560 --> 25:20.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now you have 40 minutes.
[25:20.900 --> 25:21.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, go ahead.
[25:21.720 --> 25:22.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Quite precisely.
[25:23.080 --> 25:25.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: What is the problem with the WTO?
[25:25.640 --> 25:25.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[25:25.960 --> 25:28.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I'm so happy to answer that question with time.
[25:29.160 --> 25:29.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Very good.
[25:29.700 --> 25:30.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: With time.
[25:30.420 --> 25:30.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[25:30.820 --> 25:35.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: The problem with the WTO, and folks, please, we're not going to spend the rest of the show on this.
[25:35.020 --> 25:39.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: We will take valid, you know, topics as per the show, what we usually talk about.
[25:40.020 --> 25:41.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, feel free to call in.
[25:41.460 --> 25:49.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: The problem with the WTO is that you have this monolithic entity that is not run by anyone in any of these other countries.
[25:50.020 --> 25:54.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Rather, a bureaucracy, an unelected bureaucracy that makes decisions.
[25:54.280 --> 26:03.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, the real power is not so much the WTO, but the World Bank, the International Monetary Fascists, who you informed me last week was actually...
[26:03.400 --> 26:03.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Fund, yes.
[26:03.840 --> 26:04.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: It stands for Fund.
[26:04.720 --> 26:04.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[26:05.040 --> 26:06.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: I still haven't checked up on that.
[26:06.680 --> 26:07.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: You might be right though.
[26:08.580 --> 26:20.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, what happens is, these organizations go out and they give money to other countries that, you know, that are in bad shape as most of the world is.
[26:21.360 --> 26:30.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, in order to get that money, they have to agree to all these economic reforms, quote the way we do things here.
[26:30.800 --> 26:37.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: In other words, if you have a particular way of running an economy in some foreign country someplace, nah, you got to play by our rules now.
[26:37.520 --> 26:39.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: There are a number of stipulations for the loan.
[26:39.880 --> 26:45.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And most countries are in desperate straits and also, pressure is put on them to agree to this.
[26:45.720 --> 26:56.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: If they don't agree to this, then there's all kinds of sanctions against them to start with, and they can't trade with other countries that are a part of this, and it becomes harder and harder and harder for them to exist in the world without agreeing to this.
[26:56.520 --> 27:02.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, excuse me, so basically you have countries, and there are a number of them.
[27:02.880 --> 27:05.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's see if I can think of a couple of examples off the top of my head.
[27:05.500 --> 27:13.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a country, I'm thinking Mozambique or Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, in Africa.
[27:13.660 --> 27:17.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is supposedly one of the success stories of the IMF.
[27:17.940 --> 27:20.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's where things are actually turning around.
[27:20.720 --> 27:27.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the problem is, things might be turning around for some people, like maybe 10-20% of the people at most.
[27:27.880 --> 27:32.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there are things in the stores now, but nobody can buy them.
[27:33.680 --> 27:35.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Most of the people are living in utter poverty.
[27:35.800 --> 27:43.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the reason for that is that the majority of the country's economy now is dedicated to paying back the debt they owe to the IMF.
[27:43.860 --> 27:45.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the interest on the debt.
[27:45.500 --> 27:55.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's really, you know, you take control of these countries, and you force them to owe money that they can never pay back.
[27:55.320 --> 28:00.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they have to basically live by these rules that are not decided by anyone in their country.
[28:00.300 --> 28:05.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: They are decided by bureaucrats at the IMF that are not elected by anybody, that are not answerable to anybody.
[28:06.060 --> 28:25.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you have situations where basically whole ecological areas of the world are being destroyed because these countries are pressured to put in nuclear power plants, say, that are inherently unsafe or unneeded, and they're stuck with them.
[28:25.820 --> 28:28.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: They have to do that if they want to continue in the IMF.
[28:28.760 --> 28:34.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, more importantly, the resources wind up being a commodity which can be exchanged in repayment for the loan.
[28:35.520 --> 28:38.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: The thing is, they lose control of their own countries.
[28:38.960 --> 28:40.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a really bad thing.
[28:40.240 --> 28:45.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: In Haiti, for instance, there was a pretty prosperous rice crop.
[28:46.220 --> 28:50.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: But when they joined the WTO, they were forced.
[28:50.400 --> 28:59.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were forced to accept all this really, really cheap rice from overseas, you know, because they could no longer have trade barriers.
[28:59.260 --> 29:03.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And their whole economy collapsed because they couldn't produce it anymore.
[29:03.180 --> 29:04.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were forced to do it.
[29:04.440 --> 29:05.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: They couldn't say no.
[29:05.580 --> 29:07.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: They don't have the right to say no.
[29:07.720 --> 29:08.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the problem.
[29:08.080 --> 29:09.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they have the right to say no.
[29:09.340 --> 29:14.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's just that they wind up being the sole person who says no who will be kind of crushed by everyone else.
[29:14.580 --> 29:22.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: If they say no, then they are no longer part of IMF, they can no longer trade with certain countries under certain conditions, and they fall apart either way.
[29:22.880 --> 29:23.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[29:23.020 --> 29:24.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's the problem.
[29:24.560 --> 29:25.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's why people are out there.
[29:25.760 --> 29:28.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you wanted me to answer that in 30 seconds last week?
[29:28.080 --> 29:28.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: I couldn't do it.
[29:28.680 --> 29:29.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no way.
[29:29.100 --> 29:31.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you could have cut that down even now.
[29:31.060 --> 29:31.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think I could have.
[29:32.020 --> 29:36.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the point is that was an intelligent presentation on what the problem is with the way this organization is run.
[29:37.600 --> 29:37.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[29:38.560 --> 29:39.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's frightening.
[29:39.440 --> 29:40.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, at WTR, do you know when it was formed?
[29:42.420 --> 29:42.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: 1994.
[29:43.020 --> 29:45.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is not something that's been around a very long time.
[29:45.120 --> 29:45.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's fairly new.
[29:45.640 --> 29:54.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And just the very concept of globalization, something kind of scary about that when there's no real global input.
[29:54.820 --> 30:02.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Like, you know, you have this monolithic entity someplace making the rules, saying certain things that you have to be part of it.
[30:02.540 --> 30:05.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to follow these particular rules and regulations.
[30:05.600 --> 30:18.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, there's I hear there's there's even areas of certain countries now that are that are called, quote unquote, free trade areas where the police, the police of those countries do not have authority.
[30:18.040 --> 30:24.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's it's it's really a very Orwellian type of world that we're developing here.
[30:24.240 --> 30:29.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I just think it's great that people showed up last week or two weekends ago to protest this.
[30:29.460 --> 30:34.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, a year ago, a year ago, there was an IMF meeting in D.C.
[30:34.640 --> 30:36.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And protesters showed up there, too.
[30:36.560 --> 30:36.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[30:36.920 --> 30:37.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: A dozen.
[30:38.320 --> 30:38.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[30:38.880 --> 30:40.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, you had 20,000 people in D.C.
[30:40.900 --> 30:43.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: last week by, I think, most estimates.
[30:43.800 --> 30:45.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's that's pretty good.
[30:45.080 --> 30:46.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And who knows what's going to happen next next time?
[30:46.940 --> 30:51.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's there's a meeting of the WTO in Prague later this summer that a lot of people are going to go to.
[30:51.880 --> 30:53.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's going to make Seattle dwarf by comparison.
[30:54.380 --> 30:55.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thing is, people have to be awake.
[30:56.140 --> 30:57.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Otherwise, these things take over.
[30:57.360 --> 30:59.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: They creep, you know, you're a conspiracy nut here.
[30:59.400 --> 30:59.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know.
[30:59.860 --> 31:01.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you should you should be aware of these.
[31:01.380 --> 31:02.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have I have no love for these organizations.
[31:02.980 --> 31:08.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: What I was trying to do is get you to put very simply and intelligently what the issue is with the WTO.
[31:08.860 --> 31:16.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you can wind up presenting that to the public and have some kind of intelligible discourse rather than having people lay down in streets.
[31:16.100 --> 31:19.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: You mean you're only trying to help me present my argument better?
[31:20.020 --> 31:21.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was I was I That's so sweet.
[31:21.740 --> 31:22.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Isn't that nice, Claude?
[31:22.720 --> 31:23.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's very nice.
[31:23.440 --> 31:26.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: I pushed you into a corner where the only way you could get out.
[31:26.360 --> 31:28.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: You pushed me into a corner 30 seconds before the show ended.
[31:29.140 --> 31:29.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Understood.
[31:29.900 --> 31:34.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you you had a week and you can see the question I have for you at 8 59 30.
[31:34.340 --> 31:34.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[31:34.680 --> 31:35.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[31:35.260 --> 31:38.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: But you had a week to go over it and you you know I did not go over it for a week.
[31:39.100 --> 31:39.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: I understand.
[31:39.600 --> 31:41.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is all the stuff that's still in my head from last week.
[31:42.040 --> 31:42.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm all right.
[31:42.880 --> 31:43.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let me address the listeners.
[31:43.900 --> 31:46.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: You had a week to go over what this was all about.
[31:46.940 --> 31:47.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you had a week too.
[31:47.660 --> 31:48.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Did you go over any of it?
[31:48.860 --> 31:50.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: I knew most of it beforehand.
[31:50.300 --> 31:51.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, you knew this.
[31:51.400 --> 31:51.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[31:52.000 --> 31:53.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I wanted you to say it.
[31:54.980 --> 31:57.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because it's far more effective to have shoveling it tonight, isn't it?
[31:57.860 --> 32:08.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's far more effective to have an intelligent discourse and to wind up doing this on the floors of the legislatures than laying down in the streets and holding up picket signs.
[32:08.880 --> 32:11.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: What is the goal of holding up picket signs and laying down in the streets?
[32:11.460 --> 32:13.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: To bring some kind of awareness to a problem.
[32:13.460 --> 32:17.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: How do I explain this to someone whose idea of activism is a pep rally?
[32:18.860 --> 32:22.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Listen, you have to hold up signs to get people's attention.
[32:22.660 --> 32:23.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to have demonstrations.
[32:23.880 --> 32:24.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to have civil disobedience.
[32:24.920 --> 32:26.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you don't have that, people don't see you.
[32:26.700 --> 32:27.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: They don't notice it.
[32:27.660 --> 32:33.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: But at the same time, you should be going down these avenues of effective change.
[32:33.620 --> 32:34.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: But that's happening too.
[32:34.940 --> 32:35.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's happening as well.
[32:36.100 --> 32:38.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: But very often, the first leads to the second.
[32:39.200 --> 32:44.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: You would never have had civil rights reforms had you not had civil disobedience in the 60s and demonstrations and mass rallies.
[32:44.660 --> 32:49.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if all you had was civil disobedience in the 60s, you would not have the civil rights performed.
[32:49.180 --> 32:49.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[32:49.380 --> 32:53.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because there was nothing going on in the legislatures to pass and make the change.
[32:53.260 --> 32:56.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think there are many people saying, let's stop with the civil disobedience.
[32:56.060 --> 32:56.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, I'm not saying stop.
[32:56.460 --> 32:59.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's just lie in front of buses and not do anything more after that.
[32:59.240 --> 32:59.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not saying stop.
[33:00.000 --> 33:02.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: But these things have to go hand in hand.
[33:02.540 --> 33:14.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the direction of the civil disobedience and the protests and the demonstrations should be towards getting more and more drive behind the legislation that you're trying to pass.
[33:14.120 --> 33:15.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, this is an election year.
[33:15.540 --> 33:22.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unfortunately, the demonstrations as I'm seeing them are kind of there just for the fact of being a demonstration which has no real quantitative effect.
[33:22.260 --> 33:23.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, where are you seeing them?
[33:23.580 --> 33:24.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: The mass media perhaps?
[33:25.040 --> 33:26.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe that's the way they're being presented.
[33:26.320 --> 33:30.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm seeing them through a lot of different channels because I go online and I investigate this kind of thing.
[33:31.260 --> 33:31.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[33:31.900 --> 33:32.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: But if you're trying to...
[33:32.520 --> 33:33.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you go to IndyMedia.org?
[33:33.620 --> 33:33.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you go there?
[33:34.080 --> 33:35.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't go to IndyMedia.org.
[33:35.000 --> 33:35.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why not?
[33:35.660 --> 33:39.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's independent media people that are there covering it firsthand.
[33:39.120 --> 33:44.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: I go to people of that, I don't want to say ilk, but of that caliber.
[33:45.300 --> 33:47.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have used different sources.
[33:47.900 --> 33:49.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Would you like to tell us the sources?
[33:51.140 --> 33:51.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Come on.
[33:51.840 --> 33:52.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell us one.
[33:52.760 --> 33:53.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Tell just one.
[33:54.020 --> 33:54.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: The point is...
[33:54.980 --> 33:56.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: They won't be denial of service off the net.
[33:56.620 --> 33:57.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, don't worry about that.
[33:58.400 --> 33:58.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: One second.
[33:58.840 --> 34:00.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: I read articles.
[34:00.260 --> 34:01.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: I see things.
[34:01.520 --> 34:03.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mostly people point things out to me.
[34:03.460 --> 34:08.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm very fortunate to have folks send me email and say, hey, have you seen this?
[34:08.260 --> 34:10.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'll read it and I'll look at it and I'll go, oh, well...
[34:10.400 --> 34:10.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[34:10.580 --> 34:13.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, here's a plea to the listeners out there.
[34:13.280 --> 34:14.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Send Isaac email.
[34:14.560 --> 34:15.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, please do.
[34:15.140 --> 34:15.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Guide him.
[34:15.680 --> 34:24.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because he will investigate every single link that you sent him and pursue all these news stories from all different points of view.
[34:25.060 --> 34:25.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Send them to me too.
[34:25.980 --> 34:26.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Send them to both of us.
[34:26.860 --> 34:28.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: OTH at 2600.com.
[34:29.260 --> 34:33.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, we'll educate each other as far as this kind of stuff goes.
[34:33.740 --> 34:33.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Very good.
[34:33.840 --> 34:34.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: But that's how it happens.
[34:34.960 --> 34:36.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I expect to see you...
[34:36.000 --> 34:37.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Have you ever been to a demonstration in your life?
[34:37.360 --> 34:38.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have been to a demonstration.
[34:38.100 --> 34:39.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was at the Mitnick demonstrations and...
[34:39.760 --> 34:41.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: You were filming at the Mitnick demonstrations.
[34:41.720 --> 34:42.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: That doesn't count.
[34:42.340 --> 34:43.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I was there.
[34:43.180 --> 34:44.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: You weren't holding a picket sign.
[34:45.580 --> 34:45.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: I...
[34:47.840 --> 34:48.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm...
[34:48.200 --> 34:48.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm...
[34:48.440 --> 34:51.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like we said before, there are two real fronts in this.
[34:51.280 --> 34:58.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: The demonstrators who are bringing attention and those folks who are on the floors of the legislatures and are dealing with the law and getting down in the dirt and managing to deal with it.
[34:58.960 --> 35:05.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm kind of more on the other side of writing the paper, you know, dealing with the paperwork, talking to the people, trying to make the change happen.
[35:05.600 --> 35:06.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[35:06.100 --> 35:09.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: I acknowledge which demonstrators are important, but the demonstrators...
[35:09.280 --> 35:13.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: From whaaata beginning recently, the demonstrators have kind of a...
[35:13.080 --> 35:17.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: ... had lost touch with the fact that you need to pursue these things legally and on the floor of blegislats.
[35:18.140 --> 35:18.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: They are being pursued historically.
[35:18.980 --> 35:20.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: A demonstration is completely ell breasts.
[35:20.280 --> 35:21.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's nothing illegal r 不要...
[35:22.360 --> 35:22.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, no, I'm not saying...
[35:22.620 --> 35:24.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not anything illegal about them, but their...
[35:24.780 --> 35:27.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Their purpose is to draw attention, but...
[35:27.680 --> 35:28.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: What are you drawing attention to?
[35:28.880 --> 35:33.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: You should be drawing attention to the efforts that are being made through the political sector.
[35:33.340 --> 35:39.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, right now, they're drawing attention to these organizations, which most people didn't know about before the demonstrations.
[35:39.660 --> 35:48.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now that that's been done, yes, let's have some legislation, let's have some overhaul of the whole process, and let's make sure we're all there for the next one.
[35:48.860 --> 35:50.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because they have to keep getting bigger and bigger.
[35:51.220 --> 35:55.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And people have to make it clear they're not going to put up with this from all over the world.
[35:56.140 --> 36:00.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's, you know, it is globalization of a sort, not the kind they wanted.
[36:00.500 --> 36:02.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of funny how it's worked out that way.
[36:02.200 --> 36:06.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have serious problems with abridging national sovereignty.
[36:06.960 --> 36:10.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: The other thing, which is also fascinating, is the net.
[36:10.540 --> 36:12.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Internet has played an amazing part in all this.
[36:13.160 --> 36:13.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unparalleled.
[36:13.440 --> 36:16.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bringing people together from all different backgrounds.
[36:16.180 --> 36:21.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you have teamsters and anarchists and socialists and even right-wing people out there.
[36:21.400 --> 36:22.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, even right-wing people out there.
[36:22.840 --> 36:23.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Isn't that nice?
[36:23.700 --> 36:24.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a fine concession.
[36:24.320 --> 36:26.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'll tell you, there aren't very many of them out there.
[36:26.220 --> 36:27.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd like to see more of them out there.
[36:27.380 --> 36:28.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's plenty of them out there.
[36:28.100 --> 36:29.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I didn't see very many.
[36:29.080 --> 36:30.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: The only ones I saw hanging out of a dormitory window.
[36:30.760 --> 36:31.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, at those demonstrations?
[36:31.960 --> 36:32.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, those demonstrations.
[36:33.520 --> 36:37.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of the right-wing people take more time and they pursue the other avenues.
[36:37.580 --> 36:44.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and they're also checking their stock portfolio and realizing that they're making huge amounts of money off of this globalization business.
[36:44.900 --> 36:46.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we're not going to go...
[36:46.720 --> 36:56.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: See, in this country, in this country, we benefit, the upper middle class and the upper class, you know, quote-unquote, benefit from this kind of a thing.
[36:56.980 --> 36:59.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because guess who gets all the contracts overseas?
[36:59.600 --> 37:02.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Guess where all the profits wind up being funneled into?
[37:03.040 --> 37:06.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, but I'll tell you, most of the people in this country are losing.
[37:06.360 --> 37:11.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, the wages in this country have not gone up significantly in the last 20 years.
[37:12.180 --> 37:16.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Honestly, I would not be focusing the blame on the upper classes.
[37:16.720 --> 37:23.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you want to engage in class warfare, I mean, we've got thousands of years of history where you can study effective means of going about class warfare.
[37:23.780 --> 37:25.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's supposed to be a classless society.
[37:25.320 --> 37:26.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: We like to say we're classless.
[37:26.740 --> 37:27.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Whoa, classless society.
[37:27.440 --> 37:28.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: We like to say that.
[37:28.680 --> 37:29.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, hold on.
[37:29.300 --> 37:30.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it's not really true.
[37:30.240 --> 37:34.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: A classless society is what the USSR formerly was, what Cuba is today.
[37:35.600 --> 37:39.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's, well, let's not go into the various things.
[37:39.440 --> 37:43.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I was referring, I was referring, we'll get the calls in a second.
[37:43.160 --> 37:49.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was referring to, you know, every man being equal, every person being equal in this country, and it's really, it's not the case.
[37:49.080 --> 38:00.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there's a difference here in that you're considering equality as in what everyone has, whereas equality more so is capable of achieving.
[38:01.560 --> 38:05.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: For instance, when will you ever see a poor person become President of the United States?
[38:05.380 --> 38:05.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: It can happen.
[38:06.080 --> 38:06.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it can happen.
[38:07.000 --> 38:08.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: But when will it happen?
[38:08.180 --> 38:11.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: When he goes about saying, I want to be the President of the United States.
[38:11.320 --> 38:14.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, you hear that poor people out there, all you got to do is say it.
[38:14.220 --> 38:15.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, you don't say it.
[38:15.540 --> 38:17.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, it's far beyond saying it.
[38:17.620 --> 38:19.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people say things and don't do anything.
[38:20.120 --> 38:25.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: The fact of the matter is you have to get out and do the things that are necessary to become President of the United States.
[38:25.140 --> 38:26.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which includes having millions of dollars.
[38:27.320 --> 38:27.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yeah.
[38:28.020 --> 38:29.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why, you're saying poor people don't take showers?
[38:29.800 --> 38:31.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that the... I mean, come on.
[38:32.880 --> 38:33.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Presentation.
[38:33.600 --> 38:38.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm kind of... I know plenty of poor people who can present things a whole lot better than George W.
[38:38.440 --> 38:39.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bush or Al Gore put together.
[38:39.720 --> 38:44.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, and if they are capable of doing that, there will be people behind them with the money that they require.
[38:45.140 --> 38:46.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Funny how that's never happened, though.
[38:46.960 --> 38:55.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why is that never... It's just I think that people who have been through bad times might have more ideas as to how to prevent bad times.
[38:55.320 --> 38:56.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: So run and support them.
[38:56.540 --> 38:58.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, I'm not one of them, okay?
[38:58.260 --> 38:59.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't have the knowledge to do that.
[38:59.640 --> 39:00.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Would you support someone who does?
[39:00.260 --> 39:00.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of course I would.
[39:00.840 --> 39:01.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then go about that.
[39:01.960 --> 39:07.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: But there has never been an election that I have been aware of where that has not been seen as a lunatic fringe.
[39:07.740 --> 39:08.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's all I'm saying.
[39:08.360 --> 39:08.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then perhaps this should change.
[39:16.960 --> 39:22.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have slave labor in other countries that are basically forced to undercut American workers.
[39:22.740 --> 39:24.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, guess what happens to the American workers?
[39:24.380 --> 39:25.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: They lose their jobs, too.
[39:25.780 --> 39:31.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, they're certainly not getting anything overseas by working for pennies a day, but we lose, too.
[39:31.420 --> 39:34.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everybody loses, except for a very slim portion of people.
[39:34.960 --> 39:36.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's all I have to say on the matter.
[39:37.860 --> 39:39.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: I wonder what the listeners have to say.
[39:39.740 --> 39:47.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, I'd like to not talk about this anymore, but if they feel they have to, you know, say something, I understand, since the issue was brought up.
[39:47.820 --> 39:50.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you see, 30 seconds wasn't enough time for me to cover all that.
[39:50.960 --> 39:52.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just want to point that out.
[39:53.500 --> 39:54.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, regardless.
[39:54.600 --> 39:55.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: A couple of tech things.
[39:55.960 --> 39:56.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[39:56.280 --> 39:58.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Did you see the Red Hat security advisory?
[39:58.760 --> 40:00.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: I heard there's a backdoor in Red Hat.
[40:00.600 --> 40:01.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's not necessarily a backdoor.
[40:01.720 --> 40:02.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: They call it a feature.
[40:02.420 --> 40:09.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, there's a, oh, jeez, I forget the name of the program.
[40:09.460 --> 40:13.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, they ship this utility for administering systems remotely via the web.
[40:13.540 --> 40:14.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sounds like back orifice.
[40:15.020 --> 40:19.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the intent is to have a system administrator actually be able to do this.
[40:19.340 --> 40:23.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it ships with a default password and a couple of other things.
[40:23.260 --> 40:28.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there have been some problems with how it goes about doing its thing.
[40:28.400 --> 40:33.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: But what's really interesting, this sort of thing happens all the time, where security is overlooked and so forth.
[40:34.000 --> 40:38.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: What I find interesting was Red Hat's response, which is, well, it's not installed by the fault.
[40:41.120 --> 40:42.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: So what kind of excuse is that?
[40:42.760 --> 40:44.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a pretty lame excuse, yeah.
[40:44.460 --> 40:45.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a fairly lame excuse.
[40:45.580 --> 40:49.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: The only times it would ever be, I'm sorry, and the other thing was, well, nobody uses it.
[40:50.340 --> 40:52.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, what the hell kind of product is that?
[40:52.780 --> 40:56.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you taking pride in the fact that nobody uses this thing that you wrote?
[40:56.980 --> 40:57.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, boy.
[40:57.780 --> 41:01.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you're seeking safety in the fact that your product isn't popular?
[41:01.400 --> 41:03.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, that's the kind of approach that you would expect from Microsoft.
[41:03.900 --> 41:05.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's exactly how I was going to say that.
[41:05.060 --> 41:05.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It sounds like Microsoft.
[41:06.020 --> 41:10.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: And in fact, Microsoft has its own little problem with a little bitty DLL file.
[41:11.360 --> 41:25.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you're familiar with NT BugTrack, NT BugTrack is a forum where people track down and attempt to beat senseless bugs in Microsoft Windows NT and similar products.
[41:25.160 --> 41:27.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there is a...
[41:27.000 --> 41:28.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: You've probably heard of this.
[41:28.460 --> 41:30.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Netscape engineers are weenies.
[41:30.180 --> 41:30.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I heard about that.
[41:31.520 --> 41:32.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Writing words there.
[41:32.800 --> 41:33.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[41:33.180 --> 41:38.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's gotten way out of hand, and there's a lot of hype going on, and very few people understand what's actually happening.
[41:38.680 --> 41:50.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: But if you're interested, I suggest you look for the NT BugTrack archives, and you look for posts from Rainforest Puppy, who is the fellow who managed to bring this to light.
[41:50.260 --> 41:56.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he's subsequently done a very well-composed summary of what's happened over the past couple of weeks in regards to this.
[41:57.520 --> 41:57.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[41:58.800 --> 41:59.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Our phones are full.
[41:59.900 --> 42:00.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Look at this.
[42:00.300 --> 42:00.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Every line's in.
[42:00.740 --> 42:01.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely full.
[42:01.620 --> 42:05.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2900, the most elite number in the city, right?
[42:06.680 --> 42:08.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's good having a 212 area code still.
[42:08.700 --> 42:09.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right.
[42:09.680 --> 42:11.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can tell you the heartache of being in 631.
[42:12.000 --> 42:12.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's horrible.
[42:12.700 --> 42:14.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: I called you the other time, and I got the silly recording.
[42:15.160 --> 42:15.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[42:15.500 --> 42:20.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's like, due to an area code change, the following number is not available.
[42:20.500 --> 42:21.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're looking for 631.
[42:22.060 --> 42:23.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, please, please dial the right number.
[42:25.120 --> 42:25.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who is that guy?
[42:26.020 --> 42:28.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know, but he's always in a switch room, and there's always noise going on around him.
[42:29.740 --> 42:33.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: A couple of them, you can hear him saying, go, right before he speaks, which is great.
[42:33.880 --> 42:35.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, let's take a phone call.
[42:35.100 --> 42:36.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's go over here.
[42:36.940 --> 42:37.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[42:37.380 --> 42:38.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[42:38.520 --> 42:39.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, good evening.
[42:39.400 --> 42:39.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: How are you doing?
[42:40.140 --> 42:40.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hanging in there.
[42:40.900 --> 42:43.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Listen, Emmanuel, I've got to take issue with you on Napster.
[42:43.960 --> 42:44.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[42:46.280 --> 42:51.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's easy for somebody from somebody like Limp Biz Kit to walk around and say, hey, this is what our fans want.
[42:51.600 --> 42:51.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's fine.
[42:51.920 --> 42:52.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: This guy's on tour.
[42:52.680 --> 42:53.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's making money.
[42:53.320 --> 42:53.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's selling CDs.
[42:54.400 --> 42:54.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[42:55.060 --> 43:00.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are lots of places on the net where an artist who's trying to get their music heard can have it done legitimately with their choice.
[43:00.940 --> 43:10.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: The nature of a site like Napster is for people to, you know, record their CDs, make MP3s of them, and share their hard drives with the rest of the world so other people can get the files.
[43:11.400 --> 43:17.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is not, you know, this basically removes the choice of the artist as to whether they want to put their music up or not.
[43:17.820 --> 43:18.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's the problem.
[43:18.360 --> 43:19.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here's the thing, though.
[43:19.660 --> 43:29.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you're basically battling technology here because, yeah, okay, maybe if Napster isn't around, someone can still record your CD on an MP3 and spread it all over the net in a different way.
[43:30.260 --> 43:31.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: So how do you deal with that?
[43:32.200 --> 43:34.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, but that's not a mass distribution tool.
[43:34.900 --> 43:35.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Something like Napster is.
[43:36.480 --> 43:40.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, Napster can be used for good and bad, but yeah, it's a distribution tool.
[43:41.140 --> 43:46.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, you know, it can be used to distribute something that wants to be distributed or it doesn't want to be distributed.
[43:46.420 --> 43:47.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't think Napster is the problem.
[43:47.880 --> 43:53.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think what people might be doing with, you know, with copyrighted music, that's a problem.
[43:53.680 --> 43:55.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: But that's going to happen with or without Napster.
[43:55.320 --> 43:58.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but by the same standpoint, you could also look and say, okay, look, you have the technology.
[43:58.560 --> 44:06.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you have the technology to be able to make this kind of distribution, then you also have the technology to be able to regulate it, which means if somebody's trying to put up a copywritten piece of work, scan it for a name.
[44:06.820 --> 44:09.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: If it's a popular artist, don't let the file up, you know?
[44:10.440 --> 44:12.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, if it's a voluntary... we upload mp3s.
[44:12.880 --> 44:22.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: We got them on sites all over the place, but it's a voluntary upload, and we do it with a limited amount of music so that people can hear it if they're interested in it, and if they're interested, then they can buy the CD, you know?
[44:22.020 --> 44:29.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: But just wholesale, you know, allowing wholesale, unregulated distribution of mp3 files without checking to see whether it's intellectual property.
[44:29.560 --> 44:36.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, look, I know that's a sticky wicket because some people feel like all this stuff should be free, but, you know, somebody created it, and somebody took the time to write it and perform it.
[44:36.280 --> 44:40.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that, you know, labels kick a lot onto the cost of a CD, but you know what?
[44:40.320 --> 44:44.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right now, labels are really the only form of hard distribution.
[44:44.340 --> 44:47.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Even most of the larger independents are all distributed by big labels.
[44:47.820 --> 44:51.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, if you're an artist and you really want to be heard, sometimes that's a necessary evil.
[44:51.900 --> 44:54.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: The net makes it possible for people to hear your stuff in terms of distributing it.
[44:54.660 --> 44:55.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just not the case.
[44:55.940 --> 45:00.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you see, I don't think it's a necessary evil just because the independents have been bought up by all the biggies.
[45:00.960 --> 45:03.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's... you can now distribute your own music.
[45:04.080 --> 45:05.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't need the record companies anymore.
[45:05.880 --> 45:06.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can...
[45:06.220 --> 45:08.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can to a point, but you know what?
[45:08.660 --> 45:10.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: You still run into the same issues.
[45:10.200 --> 45:15.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, look, we could talk about this for a half hour, but, you know, try calling a distributor and saying, hi, I want you to distribute my stuff.
[45:15.660 --> 45:18.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the first thing I'm going to say to you is, okay, well, you got any radio play?
[45:18.680 --> 45:19.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: You got press?
[45:19.540 --> 45:24.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the first thing I'm going to say is, no, I don't have radio play because I'm not distributed anywhere, and nobody wants to play me on the radio because I'm not distributed.
[45:24.280 --> 45:25.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a vicious cycle.
[45:25.240 --> 45:25.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[45:25.460 --> 45:25.460]  Right.
[45:26.040 --> 45:30.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the point is, this is something that the majors and the larger independents are able to accomplish.
[45:30.940 --> 45:36.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, look, the net is great for this because it means an artist can independently promote themselves, but again, it's their choice.
[45:36.980 --> 45:42.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you're Whitney Houston, you don't care if 100,000 people are trading MP3 if you're rich already.
[45:42.960 --> 45:48.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, no, that's what interests me, is that the people who are rich already are the ones that are yelling about this the most.
[45:48.260 --> 45:49.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I've seen so far.
[45:49.420 --> 45:51.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, but look, they're also the most visible.
[45:51.620 --> 45:53.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know who Pat Denonzio is?
[45:53.460 --> 45:53.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: No.
[45:53.660 --> 45:54.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's a lead singer from Smithereens.
[45:55.120 --> 45:57.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: He was on WBAI Monday or Tuesday.
[45:57.780 --> 46:02.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's been driving across the country for the past six months, touring by himself with a car, doing a living room tour.
[46:03.080 --> 46:03.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: God bless.
[46:04.260 --> 46:06.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he was complaining about Napster.
[46:06.240 --> 46:07.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: He was saying, look, people are trading my music.
[46:08.060 --> 46:08.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, this is my living.
[46:09.080 --> 46:10.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is how I feed my kids.
[46:10.620 --> 46:13.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And people are trading my music, which means taking money out of my mouth.
[46:13.700 --> 46:14.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bottom line.
[46:14.580 --> 46:18.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: But how do you prove that they're taking money when record sales are going up?
[46:18.920 --> 46:19.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: How do you prove that?
[46:19.840 --> 46:21.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, are record sales going up for him?
[46:21.600 --> 46:26.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Look, if somebody's trading his files, if two people are getting his files, that means one of them is listening to it without paying for it.
[46:27.000 --> 46:27.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Simple.
[46:27.660 --> 46:31.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's true, but it also means people are listening to it, whereas maybe they would never listen to it before.
[46:31.420 --> 46:34.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's fine, but if people are listening to it and they're not paying for it, what's the difference?
[46:34.820 --> 46:36.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's not making a living from it.
[46:36.280 --> 46:36.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's his art.
[46:36.880 --> 46:37.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's his career.
[46:37.540 --> 46:37.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's his craft.
[46:38.160 --> 46:41.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, it's what he spent the past 15 years building up.
[46:41.840 --> 46:45.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And now, by the simple transfer of a file, you're taking money out of his pocket.
[46:46.000 --> 46:48.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or you're helping him spread his music around.
[46:49.360 --> 46:50.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's two ways of looking at this.
[46:50.500 --> 46:52.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: The fact of the matter is it has to be his choice.
[46:52.480 --> 47:01.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: The artist is the creator of this, of his creation, and he has the ability and, in fact, the right to designate and figure out.
[47:01.500 --> 47:07.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's an interesting point, and I think, you know, I'd like to see designations on these songs.
[47:08.200 --> 47:18.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, you may spread... you know, I'd like to have artists come forward that want their music spread this way, and maybe we'll get a whole new class of musicians that simply want their music to be heard.
[47:18.380 --> 47:19.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, but it's an issue of consent.
[47:19.880 --> 47:21.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, but they will agree to this.
[47:21.940 --> 47:29.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: They will say, yes, you know, listen to my music on the net, spread it around, you know, but don't burn it and sell it and say it's yours, you know, that's wrong.
[47:29.240 --> 47:30.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: At present, that environment does not exist.
[47:30.920 --> 47:34.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: But Napster offers an opportunity for that environment to exist.
[47:34.640 --> 47:38.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: I would like to see Napster move completely away from commercial music and just focus on non-commercial music.
[47:38.660 --> 47:39.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I have no control over that.
[47:39.900 --> 47:47.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't say what kind of music people are going to listen to, but I think it would be better if it was used for unheard artists and a way to trade music like that.
[47:47.560 --> 47:50.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think most unheard artists would want that and would welcome that.
[47:50.480 --> 47:53.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, but you have to find out if this artist would want that.
[47:54.300 --> 47:55.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying.
[47:55.780 --> 48:00.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: They would say, yes, do it this way, spread the music around this way.
[48:00.760 --> 48:01.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And when they do that...
[48:01.500 --> 48:02.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: But here's the thing.
[48:02.220 --> 48:08.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: How do you prevent people from breaking those rules without some draconian way of controlling the technology?
[48:08.340 --> 48:09.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't see how they're going to do that.
[48:09.380 --> 48:10.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can do that within the society itself.
[48:11.160 --> 48:11.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: How?
[48:11.780 --> 48:19.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you refuse to trade with people who go about these unethical practices, they will kind of wither on the vine and die and fall away.
[48:20.120 --> 48:26.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you think we can apply that to, like, real thieves and other criminals just refuse to deal with them?
[48:27.240 --> 48:28.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, let's see.
[48:28.180 --> 48:33.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: If no one buys the man's drugs on the corner, I guess he's not going to be managing to buy from his supplier.
[48:34.940 --> 48:35.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: And...
[48:35.420 --> 48:36.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just say no.
[48:36.500 --> 48:37.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, just say no.
[48:37.720 --> 48:39.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: That works remarkably well.
[48:39.660 --> 48:40.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's move on to another phone call.
[48:41.780 --> 48:43.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-209-2900.
[48:43.600 --> 48:44.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[48:44.280 --> 48:44.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[48:45.400 --> 48:45.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[48:45.820 --> 48:49.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to talk about some things about, you know, what you were talking about.
[48:49.680 --> 48:50.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, let me correct you.
[48:50.700 --> 48:52.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're going to talk about a thing.
[48:52.140 --> 48:53.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's not going to be your email address.
[48:53.720 --> 48:55.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you have...
[48:55.240 --> 48:55.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or a payphone.
[48:56.080 --> 48:57.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have 15 seconds starting now.
[48:58.260 --> 49:00.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, you can email me at rebel...
[49:00.920 --> 49:02.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, he's getting cocky.
[49:02.680 --> 49:03.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't like that.
[49:03.500 --> 49:04.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: I really don't like that.
[49:06.020 --> 49:07.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just going to have to have another talking to.
[49:07.600 --> 49:08.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[49:08.140 --> 49:08.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[49:09.380 --> 49:09.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi.
[49:09.760 --> 49:10.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: How are you doing?
[49:10.400 --> 49:10.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good.
[49:10.540 --> 49:10.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: How are you?
[49:11.380 --> 49:11.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, thanks.
[49:12.160 --> 49:12.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Some comments...
[49:12.980 --> 49:17.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't quite remember the name of the person who was saying about how...
[49:18.240 --> 49:21.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: I could see more happening than people lying down the streets.
[49:21.360 --> 49:23.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: And to me, he's really buying you.
[49:23.820 --> 49:24.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm Isaac.
[49:24.460 --> 49:24.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm over here.
[49:25.060 --> 49:25.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: That would be Isaac.
[49:26.120 --> 49:27.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Media blackout on...
[49:27.740 --> 49:35.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I mean, one of the big organizers of both those demonstrations was the 50 Years is Enough campaign.
[49:35.520 --> 49:39.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they're allied to the International Forum on Globalization.
[49:39.960 --> 49:46.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: These are heavy hitters like David Corton, Helena Norberg-Hodge, Mandana Shiva, Jerry Mander.
[49:46.780 --> 49:49.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, these people are out lying on the streets getting tear gassed.
[49:49.760 --> 49:51.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're going around the world lecturing.
[49:51.740 --> 49:54.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're putting out magazines, Positive Futures Network.
[49:55.100 --> 49:55.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's the important one.
[49:56.000 --> 49:57.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: David Corton puts out Yes Magazine.
[49:57.080 --> 50:02.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, Edward Goldsmith, another one who's involved in the 50 Years is Enough campaign.
[50:02.560 --> 50:07.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, but I think the point that she's trying to make is that they don't stop at just writing articles.
[50:07.600 --> 50:09.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: They also participate in a demonstration.
[50:09.120 --> 50:09.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: These are heavy hitters.
[50:09.780 --> 50:10.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're writing books.
[50:10.920 --> 50:14.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know Yes Magazine, put out by Positive Futures.
[50:15.000 --> 50:15.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: You should get that.
[50:16.100 --> 50:16.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm familiar with it.
[50:16.920 --> 50:17.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's very sophisticated.
[50:18.280 --> 50:18.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[50:18.540 --> 50:24.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: But this is the kind of work that should be more supported than the getting tear cast.
[50:24.340 --> 50:24.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm...
[50:24.980 --> 50:25.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it is supported.
[50:26.200 --> 50:27.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's what I'm telling you.
[50:27.920 --> 50:31.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: The media, the mainstream media doesn't talk about it.
[50:31.240 --> 50:31.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: It is supported.
[50:32.080 --> 50:32.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's huge.
[50:33.320 --> 50:34.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Get Yes.
[50:34.300 --> 50:35.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: See, here's the thing...
[50:35.120 --> 50:36.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Positive Futures Magazine.
[50:36.420 --> 50:36.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Then perhaps...
[50:36.640 --> 50:38.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here's a question I have for you, Isaac.
[50:38.260 --> 50:40.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're saying getting tear gassed is wrong.
[50:40.620 --> 50:41.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not saying it's wrong.
[50:41.220 --> 50:42.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Isn't tear gassing...
[50:42.420 --> 50:46.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think you should focus on the people who are spreading the gas, not the people who are receiving it.
[50:46.320 --> 50:46.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I did not say it.
[50:46.520 --> 50:47.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: At no point did I say it was wrong.
[50:48.080 --> 50:49.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: I said it's less effective.
[50:49.900 --> 50:54.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: There is very little that can be accomplished by having tear gas blown in your face.
[50:54.980 --> 50:57.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell that to the people who send the tear gas into their faces.
[50:57.720 --> 51:02.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: It doesn't sound like you're aware of all that's going on and the very powerful movement.
[51:02.980 --> 51:05.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do you know the people I'm talking about and their work?
[51:05.140 --> 51:06.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Have you read Yes Magazine?
[51:06.440 --> 51:10.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm familiar with them, but only because I take the time to invest...
[51:10.260 --> 51:10.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you familiar with Yes Magazine?
[51:10.380 --> 51:11.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm familiar with Yes Magazine.
[51:11.380 --> 51:11.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Put out by Positive Futures?
[51:12.160 --> 51:15.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm familiar with them only because I take the time to investigate this kind of thing.
[51:15.720 --> 51:16.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, of course.
[51:16.660 --> 51:17.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: But there are plenty...
[51:17.240 --> 51:18.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, read it.
[51:18.240 --> 51:19.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: You don't know what's going on.
[51:20.140 --> 51:20.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's what's clear.
[51:21.340 --> 51:23.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think you should really get on the line.
[51:24.100 --> 51:25.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's really a lot.
[51:25.720 --> 51:26.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then tell me what's going on.
[51:26.840 --> 51:27.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a very powerful movement.
[51:28.320 --> 51:29.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I should call it...
[51:29.920 --> 51:34.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not just kids out in the street waving signs.
[51:34.960 --> 51:35.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Understood.
[51:35.860 --> 51:44.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're out there because people like David Corton and Gerrymander have been trekking back and forth across the planet, lecturing at every college.
[51:44.860 --> 51:47.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, they've just been blanketing the world with it.
[51:47.420 --> 51:47.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's the...
[51:47.820 --> 51:49.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's why these kids know about it.
[51:49.260 --> 51:50.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's why they're out there.
[51:50.220 --> 51:52.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the kind of action that I see as more important.
[51:52.460 --> 51:52.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but that is why.
[51:52.560 --> 52:00.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you could walk around in the demonstrations with picket signs that say, read these people or look at these resources, that's a lot more effective.
[52:00.900 --> 52:02.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's where you learn about things like that at demonstrations.
[52:02.820 --> 52:03.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: You talk to lots of people.
[52:04.040 --> 52:04.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: You trade information.
[52:04.900 --> 52:05.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: You hand out things.
[52:05.740 --> 52:06.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what people learn.
[52:06.700 --> 52:11.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: These people work with corporate boards of directors, with governments.
[52:12.480 --> 52:13.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, these are heavy hitters.
[52:13.920 --> 52:14.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, listen.
[52:14.520 --> 52:19.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: These kids who are out there, that you're talking about, are out there because of these people.
[52:19.560 --> 52:19.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[52:19.980 --> 52:20.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: So put them at work.
[52:21.020 --> 52:22.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have them write articles for Yes Magazine.
[52:22.860 --> 52:23.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're doing it.
[52:23.060 --> 52:24.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Have them do the speaking tours.
[52:24.520 --> 52:24.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're doing it.
[52:24.980 --> 52:26.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Have you read Yes Magazine?
[52:26.860 --> 52:29.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Why are you continuing to go back to this point, have I read Yes Magazine?
[52:30.000 --> 52:30.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because you haven't told me.
[52:30.320 --> 52:30.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's irrelevant.
[52:31.040 --> 52:33.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: You haven't told me if you've read it.
[52:33.100 --> 52:34.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am familiar with Yes Magazine.
[52:34.400 --> 52:37.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have not bought a copy and I have not read it.
[52:37.080 --> 52:37.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Buy it.
[52:37.420 --> 52:37.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Buy the ecology.
[52:37.480 --> 52:38.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we're going to make two stops tonight.
[52:39.100 --> 52:41.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've got to get the Limp Bizkit record and then we're going to go to Yes Magazine.
[52:41.620 --> 52:42.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we're going to get a copy of Yes Magazine.
[52:42.440 --> 52:44.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: But let me just ask the caller one last question and then we've got to move on.
[52:44.780 --> 52:44.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[52:44.960 --> 52:52.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: As far as media, things that you listen to or watch, I'm talking about, you know, TV and radio media.
[52:52.340 --> 52:53.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't watch TV.
[52:53.340 --> 52:58.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is there nothing that presents another side other than mass media that you know of?
[52:59.000 --> 53:00.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't understand the question.
[53:00.300 --> 53:10.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, basically, I'm looking for some source of information that people can look at that will give them something other than the corporate America view of things.
[53:10.260 --> 53:10.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[53:10.560 --> 53:12.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, there are a lot of books out.
[53:12.820 --> 53:13.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Those are books.
[53:13.680 --> 53:15.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, is there any kind of media, you know?
[53:15.980 --> 53:19.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes Magazine, The Ecologist, lots of other magazines.
[53:19.980 --> 53:20.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[53:20.100 --> 53:22.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: But radio, TV, anything along those lines?
[53:22.220 --> 53:24.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't watch TV and I don't have a lot of time to listen to radio.
[53:24.720 --> 53:25.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: I listen to WBAI.
[53:25.920 --> 53:26.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Mm-hmm.
[53:26.660 --> 53:27.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[53:27.020 --> 53:28.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: But this stuff is out there.
[53:28.560 --> 53:29.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: I go to lectures.
[53:29.340 --> 53:30.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: These people lecture in New York.
[53:31.020 --> 53:31.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: Mm-hmm.
[53:31.340 --> 53:31.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: I go.
[53:32.180 --> 53:33.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: I listen to what they're doing.
[53:33.760 --> 53:34.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Stuff's happening.
[53:34.820 --> 53:35.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's powerful.
[53:35.920 --> 53:35.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[53:35.980 --> 53:40.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: There are hundreds of thousands of farmers rioting all across India.
[53:40.460 --> 53:41.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do you know that?
[53:41.260 --> 53:41.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[53:42.260 --> 53:44.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're facing mass starvation over there.
[53:44.320 --> 53:46.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, but why do you think they're people...
[53:46.340 --> 53:50.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: This same group of people I'm talking about, Vandana Shiva is one of the same group.
[53:50.480 --> 53:50.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Mm-hmm.
[53:50.820 --> 53:55.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: She's in the International Forum and Globalization and 50 Years is Enough campaign.
[53:55.540 --> 53:57.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: She helped organize these demonstrations.
[53:57.480 --> 54:01.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's why the people in India are out there because there's leadership.
[54:01.340 --> 54:03.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's happening all over the world.
[54:03.280 --> 54:03.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: We just have a...
[54:04.340 --> 54:07.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: We have a media blackout in this country on this movement.
[54:07.960 --> 54:08.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.
[54:08.680 --> 54:09.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, thanks for the call.
[54:09.340 --> 54:09.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're welcome.
[54:10.320 --> 54:10.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bye.
[54:11.140 --> 54:11.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's...
[54:12.520 --> 54:14.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm able to find some things.
[54:14.460 --> 54:18.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: As you know, I get the little 18-inch dish thing.
[54:18.440 --> 54:18.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Direct TV.
[54:19.100 --> 54:19.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Direct TV.
[54:19.500 --> 54:21.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm able to watch other networks.
[54:22.100 --> 54:25.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'd be amazed how much you can learn just by watching news from other countries.
[54:26.000 --> 54:31.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a channel called News World International, which is run by CBC, but they don't just stop at Canada.
[54:31.560 --> 54:34.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: They air news from all over the world throughout the course of a day.
[54:34.680 --> 54:36.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you just see so many different perspectives.
[54:36.480 --> 54:38.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you see news that you never see here.
[54:39.320 --> 54:42.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: BBC America has news four times a day.
[54:43.060 --> 54:44.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Although, you know, it really upsets me.
[54:44.780 --> 54:49.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: That channel is censoring stuff left and right because they don't want to offend American audiences.
[54:49.700 --> 54:50.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do yourself a favor.
[54:50.820 --> 54:51.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's so annoying.
[54:51.520 --> 54:53.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've already talked to them and I'm writing a letter if that's what you want me to do.
[54:54.000 --> 54:57.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I'm also encouraging other people to do the same thing because, I mean, come on.
[54:57.500 --> 55:01.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: You turn on BBC, you expect to see BBC, not something watered down for America.
[55:01.440 --> 55:02.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's ridiculous.
[55:02.360 --> 55:03.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: The point I'm trying to make is that...
[55:03.540 --> 55:04.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've all heard those words before anyway.
[55:04.780 --> 55:10.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: The point I'm trying to make is that when you write the letters, it's a lot more effective than standing out in front of the building and holding a sign.
[55:10.680 --> 55:13.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you think if we wrote letters to Miramax that would have made a difference?
[55:14.660 --> 55:15.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I got you there.
[55:16.000 --> 55:16.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[55:16.540 --> 55:17.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think so.
[55:17.200 --> 55:19.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, everybody talks about the demonstration.
[55:19.100 --> 55:20.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nobody talks about the letters.
[55:20.760 --> 55:22.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who talks about the demonstration?
[55:22.300 --> 55:23.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's be a little more real here.
[55:23.460 --> 55:24.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: The people in the industry.
[55:24.100 --> 55:25.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: The people who made the film.
[55:25.700 --> 55:26.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[55:26.020 --> 55:27.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: They talk about the demonstration.
[55:27.400 --> 55:28.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's an issue of shock value.
[55:28.800 --> 55:29.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it worked.
[55:29.780 --> 55:30.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Whatever you want to call it, it worked.
[55:31.040 --> 55:34.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Besides those channels, I would encourage everyone to go out and get yourself a shortwave radio.
[55:34.780 --> 55:34.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.
[55:34.920 --> 55:35.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Listen to the broadcast.
[55:35.960 --> 55:36.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[55:36.740 --> 55:38.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: But stay away from the American stations.
[55:38.440 --> 55:38.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's just religion.
[55:38.920 --> 55:41.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of the American stations have value.
[55:41.720 --> 55:53.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: While this caller was talking about the tens of thousands of farmers in India who are rising up, how about the tens of thousands of farmers in the Midwest who are in equally dire straits, who are still having problems with their local government.
[55:53.100 --> 55:59.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: The fact that they're, you know, the conditions of the soil, the incredible amount of taxes that they're having to be burdened with.
[55:59.680 --> 56:00.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[56:00.020 --> 56:02.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you have some domestic issues, too.
[56:02.100 --> 56:03.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can't ignore that side.
[56:03.180 --> 56:03.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[56:03.400 --> 56:07.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: A family farm is something that is very much in danger because of organizations like WTO as well.
[56:07.900 --> 56:11.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: You need government intervention to protect these things.
[56:11.860 --> 56:20.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what these organizations take away is the right for governments to do this kind of thing to protect certain industries and farms and things like that.
[56:20.120 --> 56:21.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: See if we can squeeze in a couple more phone calls.
[56:21.820 --> 56:22.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[56:22.220 --> 56:22.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[56:24.720 --> 56:25.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[56:25.500 --> 56:26.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: You were on the air.
[56:26.120 --> 56:27.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: The rule is you got to talk.
[56:27.460 --> 56:28.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's how it works.
[56:28.680 --> 56:29.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[56:29.220 --> 56:29.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[56:30.440 --> 56:30.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[56:30.960 --> 56:32.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just noticed a minute.
[56:32.320 --> 56:32.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Goodbye.
[56:33.580 --> 56:34.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Does he think we're stupid?
[56:34.780 --> 56:35.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that what he thinks?
[56:35.380 --> 56:35.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[56:35.880 --> 56:36.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[56:37.200 --> 56:37.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello?
[56:37.780 --> 56:38.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, go ahead.
[56:38.380 --> 56:38.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome, guys.
[56:39.240 --> 56:39.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: How are you doing?
[56:40.060 --> 56:40.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: How are you?
[56:40.800 --> 56:41.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good.
[56:41.140 --> 56:42.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just wanted to weigh in with my Napster comment.
[56:43.080 --> 56:43.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[56:43.820 --> 56:44.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[56:44.260 --> 56:55.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: I guess I just think that you'd be really, really hard-pressed to find a musician who works their whole life to make CDs and make their art and then have them do it only for profit.
[56:57.340 --> 56:57.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[56:58.120 --> 56:58.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know what I'm saying?
[56:59.200 --> 56:59.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not quite sure.
[57:00.180 --> 57:02.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I guess I'm really disappointed in Metallica and their lawsuit.
[57:03.100 --> 57:03.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[57:03.460 --> 57:09.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just because I know when I've read their biographies, James used to go over to Lars' house and copy his records.
[57:10.080 --> 57:12.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's the same thing, just on a grander scale.
[57:13.260 --> 57:13.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hmm.
[57:13.480 --> 57:15.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's get some pictures of that.
[57:15.200 --> 57:18.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's get some records of that illegal activity.
[57:18.460 --> 57:19.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
[57:19.520 --> 57:22.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I guess I... would they be doing it for the money?
[57:22.460 --> 57:23.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think so.
[57:23.300 --> 57:23.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: I guess...
[57:23.660 --> 57:25.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everybody copies Friends albums.
[57:26.120 --> 57:27.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: The only difference here is that it's digital.
[57:28.080 --> 57:29.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: It sounds just as good.
[57:29.300 --> 57:30.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's digital, so that's...
[57:30.360 --> 57:31.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not just digital.
[57:31.300 --> 57:40.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's the fact that there's a system that's a system much broader than going down the street and listening to some other guy's record and saying, oh, that's really neat.
[57:40.580 --> 57:40.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly.
[57:40.880 --> 57:46.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, people used to say that of cassette tapes, that that was a whole industry designed for nothing but pirating records.
[57:46.700 --> 57:52.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not saying that it's designed for pirating records, but the fact is that you have a forum where all this kind of thing is happening.
[57:53.020 --> 57:55.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but you see, the net provides forums for all kinds of things.
[57:56.000 --> 57:59.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's, you know, the threat, again, is the net.
[57:59.460 --> 58:05.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we're able to bring all these people together who have similar interests, and all of a sudden, you've got a problem.
[58:05.500 --> 58:06.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, it works both ways.
[58:06.720 --> 58:10.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have all kinds of people who are fans of a group getting together when they never could before.
[58:10.980 --> 58:18.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, and the difference between the fan and the people taking advantage of the situation is a moral fiber that runs through the hearts of the fans.
[58:18.260 --> 58:22.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, if a group has fans, they're not going to screw the group over.
[58:22.440 --> 58:24.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm relatively certain of that.
[58:24.080 --> 58:25.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: It becomes a matter of personal responsibility.
[58:26.000 --> 58:32.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: When you are empowered like this, you have to watch and be responsible over your own actions.
[58:32.980 --> 58:34.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, thanks for the call.
[58:34.360 --> 58:34.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks.
[58:34.780 --> 58:35.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Claude, where do you think you're going?
[58:36.220 --> 58:37.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: You sit back down until the show's over.
[58:38.720 --> 58:40.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm trying to slink away here.
[58:40.120 --> 58:41.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: I thought I was going to sneak.
[58:41.200 --> 58:41.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[58:41.640 --> 58:42.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, we're taking one more phone call.
[58:42.820 --> 58:45.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then you can slink away after the closing credits.
[58:45.960 --> 58:46.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[58:46.580 --> 58:47.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on the air.
[58:47.780 --> 58:48.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, hello?
[58:48.420 --> 58:49.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, make it fast.
[58:49.500 --> 58:58.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, Isaac, you are under a naive delusion that the brilliance of your argument is going to sway politicians on this WTO issue.
[58:58.520 --> 58:59.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't remember.
[58:59.020 --> 59:03.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Don't you think that there was a big lobbying effort in 1994 to stop this?
[59:03.600 --> 59:11.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if the civil rights movement used your methods, it'd still be water fountains labeled for colors only.
[59:11.660 --> 59:20.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your attitude is the typical libertarian, play it safe, don't make waves attitude that gets you absolutely nowhere.
[59:20.660 --> 59:22.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's guaranteed to fail.
[59:22.840 --> 59:26.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: The media is totally controlled by globalists.
[59:26.560 --> 59:29.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's why there's a blackout on the opposition to this stuff.
[59:30.660 --> 59:32.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you even mentioned the BBC.
[59:32.640 --> 59:34.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's totally globalist, too.
[59:34.500 --> 59:37.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're not going to get a true picture of what's going on here.
[59:37.620 --> 59:39.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, the gentleman across the board here mentioned BBC.
[59:39.340 --> 59:43.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mentioned BBC, but you're right about BBC, but they're still better than what we have here.
[59:43.440 --> 59:48.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: And also, what do you think has fueled the rise in Wall Street values, the profits there?
[59:48.680 --> 59:53.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: They've been sending American jobs over to slave labor markets around the world.
[59:53.040 --> 59:58.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, I would argue that it's a bunch of greedy people over-inflating the value of worthless stocks in the tech market, but that's okay.
[59:58.880 --> 01:00:00.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, thank you very much for the call.
[01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:00.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[01:00:00.560 --> 01:00:01.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: I want to buy that guy a drink, actually.
[01:00:03.060 --> 01:00:04.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good way to end the show.
[01:00:04.040 --> 01:00:04.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'll get him one, too.
[01:00:04.500 --> 01:00:04.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:07.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, anyway, interesting show.
[01:00:08.220 --> 01:00:11.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hopefully, next week we'll deal with some more issues having to deal with the technology itself.
[01:00:12.020 --> 01:00:12.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[01:00:12.100 --> 01:00:15.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, feel free to write us, OTH2600.com with your feedback.
[01:00:15.980 --> 01:00:17.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a manual for Isaac and Claude.
[01:00:17.740 --> 01:00:18.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Have a good night.
[01:00:18.720 --> 01:00:19.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now we can go?
[01:00:19.780 --> 01:00:20.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you can go.
[01:00:20.360 --> 01:00:20.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: We can go.
[01:00:56.220 --> 01:01:02.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Prisoner Shout Out Line is an open invitation to every concerned heart and informed mind.
[01:01:02.860 --> 01:01:13.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a means to send a personal supportive message to a friend or loved one behind bars, sharing the vicarious joy of making someone's day with encouraging words of concern.
[01:01:14.300 --> 01:01:18.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got to find a way to help them find their way.