Hi, I'm Brooke Hey, I'm Naima
Hey, this is Jalez What's up, I'm Andrea
Hey, I'm Anthony And we're Youth Pulse
And you're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM Pacifica Radio
And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York as you may have just heard
It's coming up on 8 o'clock on a Tuesday night
Which means, once again, it's time for Off The Hook
That's understood, but they need more
And a good evening to everybody, this is Off The Hook
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for the next hour
As we talk about issues of technology, privacy, hackers, and whatnot
And, hey Claude, how are you doing?
I'm okay, I'm surprised to be here and to be Pacifica
I'm surprised to suddenly see you show up like that
It's been a while, some time
Thanks for rescuing me before I got locked in a room
Yes, in a room with an open door
Yeah, thanks very much
Well, you know, open door policies aren't always the best ones
But it didn't work in this case
Isaac, how are you doing?
I'm over here in the whatnot department
Yeah, yeah, it's been interesting
You know, last week, well first of all, let me show you what I have
Yes, I was going to comment on that
Yes, isn't it a very nice looking shirt?
Thank you very much, thank you very much
And the back is just as nice as the front, except it's different
Does the back have telephones on it, or?
No, no, I'll show you the back, it's got that picture on it, see?
Oh, hey
Isn't that cool?
Yeah, it's the MPAA shirts, the anti-MPAA shirts are out
And yes, you can now get one of your own and voice your opinion
We've been seeing Stop the MPAA bumper stickers showing up on vehicles all over the place
Not always the vehicles are the people who put them there, too, I might add
But, you know, sometimes limousines and taxis, I've noticed them on
But they're out there, they're getting out there
And we've made enough of them, so that makes sense that they should get out there
The shirts, though, we just got the shirts today
And if you ordered one and you're starting to cuss about not getting it
Well, you'll get it real soon
Because we just got a whole lot of them
And we're going to be spending the next couple of days doing nothing but mailing them out
And making friends at the post office
Now, these shirts, of course, are in response to the lawsuit against us
By the Motion Picture Association of America
Having to do with the cracking of the DVD encryption
The program known as DECSS
And if you haven't heard about that, you don't know what we're talking about
I strongly suggest you listen to some back shows
Which are up on our website, www.2600.com
Slash off the hook
Or simply read the current edition of 2600
Or just look around the net at other sources
And you should find out everything there is to know about that
We've spent a lot of shows talking about this
I don't want to rehash old ground
But, you know, there is something interesting
Last week, right after we left the studio
We took a trip over to the paper store
And we bought a paper
We bought a paper I don't usually buy
USA Today, a piece of trash
Oh, you're not going to get a disagreement here
Good, because it is a piece
I mean, you know, it's the same basic thing
No matter where you go
It's used basically for a dozen words or less
But I have to try and find where they put the article
Why don't you talk while I keep looking?
I think it's in Lifestyles
It's either in Lifestyles or Money
No, it wouldn't be in Money
I guess it would be in Lifestyles
Well, hacking is something of a lifestyle
Yeah, but it's not about hacking
It's about the MPAA
It's about the MPAA
Did they mention DCSS?
No, not specifically
Oh, I found it
You got it
How did I find it so fast?
It's amazing
Okay, yes, on page 3D of USA Today, Tuesday, April 18th
Just jumps out at you
Yeah, it sure does
Under the story, Pretty Ex-Spy Has an Eye on Tiny Tech
Has nothing to do with the story, of course
It's a subheading called
Hackers Hit Movie Industry Website
You did?
Yeah, it was news to me, too
Listen to this
The website of the Motion Picture Association of America
which has accused computer coders in court
of attempting to illegally pirate movies
was partly brought down by hackers during parts of last week
and on Monday, according to the association
Doesn't say that in the headline, according to the association
but that is all it's according to right now
Email and the website were restored by Monday afternoon
First of all, their site for some reason has been taken offline
and it's been offline for weeks and nobody knows why
It's very easy to say, oh yeah, hackers did this
First of all, if somebody did it, all right
There are probably millions, if not billions of people
who are pissed off at the Motion Picture Association of America right now
So it could have been anybody that, you know, did that
It could be one of their ex-employees
Could be one of their current employees
Could have been Jack Valente hitting the wrong key
You know, it's been known to happen
But to say that it's related to the people that they're suing, you know, to imply that
That's just grossly irresponsible
And plus, if it is a denial-of-service attack, you don't take the site down for weeks
You know, you can pretty much fix things in that period of time
Are they that inept that they really just turned the thing off, unplugged it from the wall?
What did they do?
Need to hold a door open with something, you know
See, now, we're paranoid
We're ultra-paranoid people
We think, we see conspiracies around every corner
What do you mean?
Yeah, we do, we do
What motivation do you have?
Just seeing you in the room makes me paranoid
But the point is, we don't go around saying that every bad thing that happens to us
is because of the MPAA
I mean, it wouldn't be reasonable
It just wouldn't be
And plus, we don't want to give them the satisfaction
Well, MPAA president Jack Valente calls the attack vicious
How did he know what kind of an attack it was?
Maybe it was a friendly attack
Might have been a friendly, nice attack, you know
Maybe they had a lot of people hitting their site
That could have been it
Maybe they had more than 10 people hit the site
And they didn't know what to do
They thought it was a denial-of-service attack
It had to be something like that
Anyway, MPAA spokesman Richard Taylor
He's a new person
Richard Taylor says, the association was a victim of a denial-of-service attack
in which a website is overwhelmed with traffic
Sounds like the LIE on a good morning
The battle against piracy is not fought without making some enemies, Taylor said
The battle of what?
The battle against piracy
Against piracy?
Yeah
Oh, okay
So, they will stoop to-
Who are they fighting?
All different- I don't know what they're fighting
They're fighting like little gremlins in their heads
That's what I think they're doing
I wasn't aware that anyone here was actually doing pirating
No, it's not about pirating
It's not about pirating
It's certainly- it's insane
And we're not going to go over this all over again
Because we've done it week after week
People know what the case is about
And if you don't, please listen to the back issues of the show
But speaking of denial-of-service attacks
Mafia Boy, you heard about this, right?
Yes, a couple of things
They tracked down Mafia Boy
And some interesting revelations came out of that
As you no doubt saw
Which- the ones involving his father?
No, well, yeah
There was his father too
It turned out to be a real mafia man, apparently
Well, we don't know that
And in fact, we don't even know if there's such a thing as a mafia
But here's the thing
Here's the thing
The- did you check the 2600 website over the last week?
No
What do you do with your week, Isaac?
What do you do?
You don't check the websites of the things that, you know, that we do the show
I disappear under the rock for the other-
No one sees you
You only appear, you know, one night a week
You disappear into the shadows
The first Friday of the month at the meeting
I mean, I'm there too
Yeah, okay
I have to reserve my energy for that
Better start reserving for H2K too
I imagine you'll be making an appearance at that
Well, anyway, as it turns out
We just happen to have some interesting logs lying around
See, back when Mafia Boy was first mentioned as the suspect
We thought it was kind of interesting
Because he was mentioned as a suspect with nothing more behind it
Other than the fact that somebody in an IRC chat room said that they did it
You know, that was it
All of a sudden, Mafia Boy was the person that, you know, that was responsible for the whole thing
So we thought, hey, this would be fun
Why don't we get an IRC and use the nickname Mafia Boy?
Let's see what happens
Inside of 30 seconds, we're getting messages from all kinds of people
Wanting to know how we did it, why we did it, when we'll do it again
Everything that you could possibly imagine we were getting
Including a message from the very guy that claims to have tracked him down
Yeah, the very guy
Who is this?
His name is Michael Lyle
And he goes by the IRC name Icee, I-C-E-E
And right away, we started getting messages from this person
And of course, he wanted us to verify our identity
And asked us a certain question
But we flip-flopped over that by simply giving him a piece of his information
That we could only know if we were this person
And actually, we were able to find it out just by looking him up
You know, it took about 10 seconds
Actually, yeah, it took about 10 seconds
Because I think there was another denial of service thing going on at the time
But after we convinced him of our identity
Well, your assumed identity
Yeah, we had a lot of fun
And just basically talked to him for a long, long time
And the logs are up on the 2600 site
And it kind of throws a monkey wrench into the whole thing
Because, you know, if the guy is being pinned
You know, if this is being pinned on the guy
Because he boasted in an IRC chatroom
Well, look how easy it is to fool somebody
Just by saying you're this person
That's all you have to do
And all of a sudden, you can have all kinds of crimes attributed to you
This may very well be the person
If it is the person, fine
You know, do whatever has to be done
I don't think the person should be sent into prison
I think the person should be, you know, dealt with in some way
I'm not going to get into that
Because everybody has a different opinion on that
But we certainly don't need the draconian type of penalties we have here
But if that is the case, if it is the person
What's the evidence, you know?
Are we talking about logs here?
Are we talking about, you know, specific technical details that point to this person?
I mean, yeah, okay, fine
If that is the case, show the evidence
You know, show the evidence whenever the evidence needs to be shown
But if the evidence is only in IRC chatroom, that's not going to cut it
And that was the point we were trying to make
Is that it's ridiculously easy to fool people on the net
And, you know, you have to kind of know what you're talking about
I'm interested in something of a sub point
Where supposedly there was a wiretap order put on this house
And the way they caught the guy's father was that
While accumulating evidence against Mafia Boy
They listened to his dad order a hit on some other guy
I don't know if it was a hit so much or just a...
Just to harass him
But the point is, in Canada, does a wiretap order, you know
Is it exclusive to the target that you get the order on?
Or can you pick up little circumstantial bits and act on those?
I was wondering the same thing, actually
Because, you know, in this country
It's supposed to limit it only to the person you're investigating
And if you have a search warrant, you go into someone's house
You're looking for X
If you find Y, which also happens to be illegal
You don't have a search warrant for Y
I mean, you can go out and get one and come back
But if you hear that somebody is going to be hurt, do you ignore that?
That's another...
It was like an ultimate dilemma they were facing right there
I'm actually interested in Canadian perspective on law in this regard
But one thing I do admire them for up there is
When they did catch the guy, Mafia Boy, that is
Or believe they caught the guy
They weren't even talking about sending him away to prison for 20 years
Like we were in this country
They were like, you know, this is a kid playing around
If it's even that
And, you know, I'll deal with it in juvenile, you know, detention or whatever
Whatever needs to be done
But it just sounds so much more reasonable than the blood they're always calling for here
And I remember when this first happened
You know, people were seeing red
They were ready to kill this guy, you know
Because their favorite corporate websites had been unavailable for a couple of hours or whatever
And, you know, the reaction from a lot of technical type people
Let's basically fix the problem
Let's see how we can make sure this doesn't happen in the future
Rather than, you know, throw more people in jail
Now that they finally found the person
If they have indeed found the person
It seems like cooler heads are prevailing
And I think people aren't as angry as they were when it was actually taking place
Nice little pun there
Cooler heads from Canada
That's not what I meant
Could have worked
But yeah, so interesting chain of events
Also on our website, we intercepted
Well, actually, I guess it's probably not the right word to use
Because we don't want to be accused of all kinds of other things
But there was a memo that was sent out by Michael Eisner, the head of Disney
Which kind of came your way
Well, it kind of came our way from a sympathetic Disney employee
Of which there are many, including some of them who wear outfits
And they forwarded that to us
And it's now posted up on our site along with our comments
And he basically addresses the whole DVD issue and gets it completely wrong
So it's amusing
It's pretty funny to see just where their heads are at
And what we have to deal with in the future
So yeah, Michael Eisner and his little memo
It's up there on the site
Now here's an interesting piece from...
Question?
I was wondering what Walt would think about all this
I don't know, you know
I think most people who actually were pioneers
I can't really say that because Thomas Edison was a pioneer
And he was a bit of a bastard too
So I'd like to think...
Where did that come from?
Well, he is
I mean, you know what Thomas Edison did back in the 19-teens?
Is that what you call them?
He basically made it so that if you were a filmmaker, you had to pay a fee
You were not allowed to make a film unless you paid that fee
It was illegal to make films
It was a technology usage fee
Yeah, technology usage
I mean, we see full circle
Using his cameras and his...
No, you weren't using his cameras
You were just using, you know, the whole...
Getting it to play in a theater
Getting it to, you know, to be on...
It was really a horrible thing
And it was finally overturned
Well, there's a lot of stories
A lot of people were...
A lot of independent people were kind of squashed by that
So, you know, I don't look on him as a good person
Sorry, not after that
Anyway, yeah
So I'd like to think that the pioneers get it right
But they don't always
Sometimes they just turn into the worst enemy that they could possibly be
Here's an interesting kind of parallel story here
It's about CD piracy
Audio CDs
Yeah, or alleged audio CD piracy
At the heart of two music recording industry trials
is whether digital piracy will make people stop buying CDs
As the judge prepares to rule on the first of the lawsuit
Statistics show that people are buying more albums than ever
Remarkable
Isn't that something?
Yeah
The world of brick-and-mortar retail looks to be in fine shape
Which should be a big boost for everyone in the music business
Sound scan sales figures
Which are measured by tracking purchasing by recording barcodes
Show that the music industry has grown about 8%
Over last year's first quarter
That's good for the digital distribution businesses
MP3.com and Napster
Who are facing down the recording industry in court
And in part due to fears that digital music piracy would hurt sales of CDs
I don't even know if you want to call it piracy
Unless you're actually burning it onto CD and selling it
That's what I consider piracy
Just listening to something I don't necessarily consider piracy
But there's a really good comment in here
Ah, yes
You know how the record industry responds to this?
How does the record industry respond to this?
Alex Walsh, Vice President of Market Research for the Recording Industry of America
Said if we grew 3% as an industry
Maybe we could have grown twice as much
There's no way to tell just how much we could have lost
So even a gain is a loss to them
Because they say that, yeah, we're losing
So if we're actually gaining
That means we're not gaining as much as we would have gained had we not lost
Lost the...
Don't bother trying to figure it out
It's unbelievable
So it's a losing gain?
Well, they seem to think that they would have gained more money if it wasn't for MP3
It makes no sense
It's completely against logic
Because the more people who are listening to something
The more people will hear about it
And will talk about it
And, yeah, you can say everybody's going to go out there and buy pirated versions
But, you know, I don't think that's the way most people work
I really don't
Maybe I'm just a fool
Maybe I just, you know, think too highly of people
But how about this?
Hard rock band Limp Bizkit has teamed up with controversial internet company Napster Inc.
To launch a free U.S. concert tour
And the group's singer Monday criticized fellow artists
Who have accused Napster of promoting music piracy
Napster allows users to trade and search for MP3s
Free downloadable files of musical performances
A fan can type in the name of the desired song
Click on the desired version
Instantly download it all for free
The Music Industries Trade Group
Recording Industry Association of America
Sued Napster in December
Charging that the San Mateo, California company's website
Promotes piracy and copyright infringement
Rock band Metallica
Rap pioneer Dr. Dre
Have also waded in against Napster in recent weeks
But the controversy has washed over Limp Bizkit's singer Fred Durst
Who told a news conference that Napster was a great way for fans
To sample an album before buying it
I would think the only people worried about that
Are people that are really worried about their bank accounts, he said
In the opposite corner, Metallica drummer Lars Ulrich
As we mentioned last week
Accused Napster and several universities
That allow access to it of trafficking stolen goods
And a couple of universities have blocked access
But you know USC is refusing to do that
Yes, they're refusing
They're refusing to block it
They say there's a legitimate purpose for this program
And I wholeheartedly agree
Now, you know, nobody I think is going to defend someone
Who goes out and copies Music Burns at the CD
And then starts selling it
Obviously, you know, that's profiting for somebody
But to listen to a song over the internet
That you either have or don't have
I don't know, I consider that the equivalent of reading
You know, you're checking something out that you want to hear
Or you want to share with somebody else
And if it's really, really good
You'll buy your own copy
If you really want it, you'll buy your own copy
There are other things other than just the sound the music makes
That you get when you buy something
For instance, let's say that for me
It's a lot easier to have something on CD
You know, I can take it with me
I can listen to it wherever I go
Yeah, as I look around the studio
I don't see an mp3 player
No, you know, we're playing a CD right now
Hear that? That's a CD
That's not an mp3, that's a CD
And the only way we could play that
Was by me bringing that CD in
Now, I suppose what I could have done
I could have gone onto the net
Found that particular track
Downloaded it
Burned it to a CD
And then brought it in that way
And saved myself the money I spent getting this
And also, by the same token, robbed the artist of their 20 cents
Or whatever the record company gives them after they take their cut
But for me to do that is more of a pain than it's worth
Therefore
Well, I would hope that it's not the inconvenience
That is prompting you to not engage in that sort of activity
Definitely not
But I'm saying, you know, obviously
I wouldn't do it that way to start with
Because, well, actually I would for the technical purpose of it
Yeah, I'd like to
As an experiment
Yeah, throw an mp3, you know, on the air
That kind of thing
But as far as my own personal library
No, I wouldn't go out and just burn a bunch of CDs
To, you know, to rip people off
No, that's not what it's about
It's about, you know, being able to listen to things
And I think that's, you know, it's a fairly simple concept
So the thing is, record companies have to realize that, you know
CDs are too expensive
Bring down the price a little bit
Less people will do this
You spend 15, 16 bucks on a single CD
Yeah, you know, you kind of feel like you're being ripped off there
And maybe you should, you know, benefit from it somehow
On the other hand, it is the prerogative of the artist
How he wants to distribute his music
What fees he wishes to charge
Oh yeah, absolutely
It's his prerogative to jump off a cliff, you know
And kiss his musical career goodbye by pricing it out of the range of people
But that tends to be a reaction
And the point is, and I think the guy from Limp Bizkit made this very well
Who is Limp Bizkit, by the way?
It's a hard rock band, that's all you need to know
And in fact, I'm gonna buy one
I'm telling you right now, I'm gonna buy one of their CDs later on
When we're out later, you know, carousing around
You're gonna go to a record store
And I'm gonna buy a Limp Bizkit CD
And you can watch me
And next week, come on the air and tell people that, in fact, I did that
Am I gonna have to listen to it?
Yeah, you know what?
Next week, we're gonna play it on the air
How about that?
All of this
My musical education
All of this is because they took a courageous stand
And actually bumped the trend of greed
Okay, I found the quote
The internet is here
And anybody trying to fight that
Which would be people who are living by certain standards and practices of the record industry
Those are the only people who are scared and threatened
And asked to comment specifically on Metallica's stance, he replied
I don't think anything about what Metallica thinks
That's my kind of band
Okay, this is almost as tough as the gaining loss thing
I...
Well, regardless
So I'm gonna hear Limp Bizkit next week
And they're...
Yeah, and any other artists that wanna jump on board
Yeah, what is their genre again?
They're heavy metal or hard rock?
You know what? I'm just gonna surprise you
How about that?
Yeah, I mean, my familiarization with modern music
Well, you might need to bring your V-chip with you, you know?
Just to protect your head
Well, it's not...
It's just that it won't...
Regardless
Let's continue
All right, well, actually, that's all I have
I wanted to allocate a little extra time today
Before we start taking phone calls
212-209-2900
Because, Isaac, I believe at the end of the show last week
You brought up some questions with about 30 seconds left
That I was unable to answer
So let's just bring down the music
The music is off
The floor is yours, ask your questions
Now you have 40 minutes, so go ahead
Quite precisely
What is the problem with the WTO?
Oh, I'm so happy to answer that question with time
With time
Okay, the problem with the World Trade Organization
And folks, please, we're not going to spend the rest of the show on this
We will take valid, you know, topics as per the show
What we usually talk about
So feel free to call in
Problem with the World Trade Organization is
That you have this monolithic entity
That is not run by anyone in any of these other countries
Rather, a bureaucracy
An unelected bureaucracy that makes decisions
Now, the real power is not so much the World Trade Organization
But the World Bank, the International Monetary Fascists
Who you informed me last week was actually...
The fund
It stands for fund
And I still haven't checked up on that
You might be right though
Now, what happens is
These organizations go out
And they give money to other countries that, you know
That are in bad shape as most of the world is
But in order to get that money
They have to agree to all these economic reforms
That happen to be similar to the way we do things here
In other words, if you have a particular way of running an economy
In some foreign country someplace
Now, you got to play by our rules now
There are a number of stipulations for the loan
And most countries are in desperate straits
And also, pressure is put on them to agree to this
If they don't agree to this
Then there's all kinds of sanctions against them to start with
And they can't trade with other countries that are a part of this
And it becomes harder and harder and harder for them
To exist in the world without agreeing to this
So, excuse me
So basically, you have countries
And there are a number of them
Let's see if I can think of a couple of examples
On top of my head
There's a country, I'm thinking Mozambique or Dar es Salaam
Is it? Tanzania
Tanzania
In Africa
That is supposedly one of the success stories of the IMF
That's where things are actually turning around
But the problem is
Things might be turning around for some people
Like maybe 10-20% of the people at most
And there are things in the stores now
But nobody can buy them
Most of the people are living in utter poverty
And the reason for that is
That the majority of the country's economy now
Is dedicated to paying back the debt they owe to the IMF
That's the interest on the debt
So it's really, you know
You take control of these countries
And you force them to owe money
That they can never pay back
And they have to basically live by these rules
That are not decided by anyone in their country
They're decided by bureaucrats at the IMF
That are not elected by anybody
That are not answerable to anybody
And you have situations where
Basically, whole ecological areas of the world are being destroyed
Because these countries are pressured to put
To put in nuclear power plants, say
That are inherently unsafe or unneeded
And they're stuck with them
They have to do that if they want to continue in the IMF
Well, more importantly, the resources wind up being a commodity
Which can be exchanged in repayment for the loan
The thing is, they lose control of their own countries
It's a really bad thing
In Haiti, for instance, there was a pretty prosperous rice crop
But when they joined the WTO
They were forced to accept all this really cheap rice from overseas
Because they could no longer have trade barriers
And their whole economy collapsed
Because they couldn't produce it anymore
They were forced to do it
They couldn't say no
They don't have the right to say no
Well, they have the right to say no
It's just that they wind up being the sole person who says no
Who will be kind of crushed by everyone else
If they say no, then they are no longer part of IMF
They can no longer trade with certain countries under certain conditions
And they fall apart either way
And that's the problem
And that's why people are out there
Well, you wanted me to answer that in 30 seconds last week
I couldn't do it
There's no way
Well, you could have cut that down even now
I don't think I could have
But the point is, that was an intelligent presentation
On what the problem is with the way this organization is run
Yeah, it's frightening
I mean, the WTO, do you know when it was formed?
1994
This is not something that's been around a very long time
It's fairly new
And just the very concept of globalization
There's something kind of scary about that
When there's no real global input
Like, you know, you have this monolithic entity someplace
Making the rules, saying certain things
That you have to be part of it
You have to follow these particular rules and regulations
And, you know, there's...
I hear there's even areas of certain countries now
That are called, quote-unquote, free trade areas
Where the police, the police of those countries
Do not have authority
You know, it's really...
In some cases
It's a very Orwellian type of world that we're developing here
And I just think it's great that people showed up last week
Or two weekends ago to protest this
Now, a year ago, a year ago
There was an IMF meeting in DC
And protesters showed up there too
Okay
A dozen
All right, now, you had 20,000 people in DC last week
By, I think, most estimates
That's pretty good
And who knows what's going to happen next time
There's a meeting of the WTO in Prague later this summer
That a lot of people are going to go to
It's going to make Seattle dwarf by comparison
Thing is, people have to be awake
Otherwise, these things take over
They creep, you know
And you have a conspiracy nut here
I know
Yeah, you should be aware of these conspiracies
I have no love for these organizations
What I was trying to do was get you to put very simply
And intelligently what the issue is with the WTO
So you can wind up presenting that to the public
And have some kind of intelligible discourse
Rather than having people lay down in streets
You mean you're only trying to help me present my argument better
I was, I was
That's so sweet
Isn't that nice, Claude?
I pushed you into a corner where the only way you could get out
You pushed me into a corner 30 seconds before the show ended
Understood
But you had a week and you considered
Where do you see the question I have for you at 8.59.30?
All right
But you had a week to go over it
And you
No, I did not go over it for a week
I understand
This is all the stuff that's still in my head from last week
I'm, all right, let me address the listeners
You had a week to go over what this was all about
And you had a week too
Did you go over any of it?
I knew most of it beforehand
Oh, you knew this?
Yes, but I wanted you to say it
Because it's far more effective to have
You're shoveling it tonight, isn't it?
No, it's far more effective to have an intelligent discourse
And to wind up doing this on the floors of the legislature
Good old Professor Isaac
Than laying down in the streets and holding up picket signs
What is the goal of holding up picket signs and laying down the streets?
To bring some kind of awareness to the problem
All right, how do I explain this to someone who's
But it doesn't solve the problem
Idea of activism is a pep rally
Listen, you have to hold up signs to get people's attention
You have to have demonstrations
You have to have civil disobedience
If you don't have that, people don't see you
They don't notice it
Understood, but at the same time
You should be going down these avenues of effective change
But that's happening too
That's happening as well
But very often the first leads to the second
You would never have had civil rights reforms
Had you not had civil disobedience in the 60s
And demonstrations and mass rallies
And if all you had was civil disobedience in the 60s
You would not have the civil rights reforms
Okay
Because there was no
There was nothing going on in the legislatures to pass
And make a change
I don't think there are many people saying
Let's stop with the civil disobedience
No, I'm not saying stop
Let's just lie in front of buses and not do anything more after that
I'm not saying stop
But these things have to go hand in hand
And the direction of the civil disobedience
And the protests and the demonstrations
Should be towards getting more and more
Drive behind the legislation that you're trying to pass
Well, this is an election year
Unfortunately, the demonstrations as I'm seeing them
Are kind of there just for the fact of being a demonstration
Which has no real
Where are you seeing them?
The mass media perhaps
Maybe that's the way they're being presented
I'm seeing them through a lot of different channels
Because I go online and I investigate this kind of thing
Okay
But if you're trying to
Do you go to Indymedia.org?
Do you go there?
I don't go to Indymedia.org
Why not?
That's independent media people that are there covering it first hand
I go to people of that
I don't want to say ilk
But of that caliber
I have used different
Would you like to tell us a source?
Come on, tell us one
Tell just one
The point is
They won't be denial of service off the net
No, don't worry about that
I read articles
I see things
Mostly people point things out to me
I'm very fortunate to have folks send me email and say
Hey, have you seen this?
And I'll read it and I'll look at it and I'll go
Oh, well, that's
All right, well, here's a plea to the listeners out there
Send Isaac email
Guide him
Because he will investigate every single link that you send him
And pursue all these news stories
From all different points of view
Send them to me too
Send them to both of us
oth2600.com
And we'll educate each other
As far as this kind of stuff goes
But that's how it happens
I expect to see you
Have you ever been to a demonstration in your life?
I've been to demonstrations
I was at the Mitnick demonstrations
And you know
You were filming at the Mitnick demonstration
That doesn't count
I was there
You weren't holding a picket sign
Like we said before
There are two real fronts in this
The demonstrators who are bringing attention
And those folks who are on the floors of the legislatures
And are dealing with the law
And getting down in the dirt
And managing to deal with it
I'm kind of more on the other side of
Writing the paper
You know
Dealing with the paperwork
Talking to the people
Trying to make the change happen
I acknowledge that the demonstrators are important
But the demonstrators
From what I've been seeing recently
The demonstrators have kind of
Have lost touch with the fact
That you need to pursue these things legally
And on the floors of legislatures
But they are being pursued
Demonstration is completely legal
There's nothing illegal about
Marching through the streets
I'm not saying there's anything illegal about them
But their purpose is to draw attention
But what are you drawing attention to?
You should be drawing attention to the efforts
That are being made through the political sector
But right now they're drawing attention
To these organizations
Which most people didn't know about
Before the demonstrations
Now that that's been done
Yes, let's have some legislation
Let's have some overhaul of the whole process
And let's make sure we're all there for the next one
Because they have to keep getting bigger and bigger
And people have to make it clear
They're not going to put up with this
From all over the world
I think that's, you know
It is globalization of a sort
Not the kind they wanted
It's kind of funny how it's worked out that way
I have serious problems with abridging national sovereignty
The other thing which is also fascinating is the net
The internet has played an amazing part in all this
Unparalleled
Bringing people together from all different backgrounds
And you have teamsters and anarchists and socialists
And even right-wing people out there
Oh, even right-wing people out there?
Isn't that nice?
It's a fine concession
I'll tell you, there aren't very many of them out there
I'd like to see more of them out there
There's plenty of them out there
Well, I didn't see very many
The only ones I saw were hanging out of a dormitory wall
At those demonstrations?
Yeah, at those demonstrations
A lot of the right-wing people take more time
And they pursue the other avenues
Yeah, and they're also checking their stock portfolio
And realizing that they're making huge amounts of money
Off of this globalization business
Well, we're not going to go
See, in this country
In this country, we benefit
The upper middle class and the upper class, quote-unquote
Benefit from this kind of a thing
Because guess who gets all the contracts overseas?
Guess where all the profits wind up being funneled into?
But I'll tell you, most of the people in this country are losing
The wages in this country have not gone up significantly in the last 20 years
Honestly, I would not be focusing the blame on the upper classes
If you want to engage in class warfare
I mean, we've got thousands of years of history
Where you can study effective means of going about class warfare
This is supposed to be a classless society
We like to say we're a classless society
We like to say that
Well, hold on
But it's not really true
A classless society is what the USSR formally was
What Cuba is today
It's, well, let's not go into the various things
Well, I was referring
I was referring
Well, we'll get the colors in a second
I was referring to, you know, every man being equal
Every person being equal in this country
And it's really, it's not the case
Well, there's a difference here in that
You're considering equality as in what everyone has
Whereas equality more so is
No, I'm referring to whatever is capable of achieving
For instance, when will you ever see a poor person become president of the United States?
It can happen
Yeah, it can happen
But when will it happen?
When he goes about saying
I want to be the president of the United States
Okay, you hear that poor people out there
All you got to do is say it
No, you don't say it
No, it's far beyond saying it
A lot of people say things and don't do anything
The fact of the matter is you have to get out and do the things that are necessary
To become president of the United States
Which includes having millions of dollars
Well, yeah, what are you saying?
Poor people don't take showers?
Is that the, is that the, I mean, come on
Presentation
I'm kind of, I'm
I know plenty of poor people who can present things a whole lot better
Than George W. Bush or Al Gore put together
Okay, and if they are capable of doing that
There will be people behind them with the money that they require
Funny how that's never happened though
You know, why is that never, it's just
I think that people who have been through, you know, bad times
Might have more ideas as to how to prevent bad times
So run and support them
Yeah, well, I'm not one of them, okay
I don't have the knowledge to do that
Would you support someone who does?
Of course I would
But then go about that
But there has never been an election that I have been aware of
Where that has not been seen as a lunatic fringe
Then perhaps this should change
Because it's obviously not a lunatic fringe
That's what I'm saying, it should definitely change
And the thing is, you know, we think that things like WTO and IMF don't affect us
They do
Because when you have slave labor in other countries
That are basically forced to undercut American workers
Well, guess what happens to the American workers?
They lose their jobs too
I mean, they're certainly not gaining anything overseas
By working for pennies a day
But we lose too
Everybody loses except for a very slim portion of people
And that's all I have to say on the matter
I wonder what the listeners have to say
Well, you know, I'd like to not talk about this anymore
But if they feel they have to, you know, say something
I understand, since the issue was brought up
But you see, 30 seconds wasn't enough time for me to cover all that
I just want to point that out
I'm, well, regardless
A couple of tech things
Yes
Did you see the Red Hat security advisory?
I heard there's a backdoor in Red Hat
Well, it's not necessarily
They call it a feature
Yeah, well, there's a...
Oh, jeez, I forget the name of the program
Anyway, they ship this utility for administering systems remotely via the web
Sounds like back orifice
Well, the intent is to have a system administrator actually be able to do this
And it ships with a default password and a couple of other things
And there have been some problems with how it goes about doing its thing
But what's really...
This sort of thing happens all the time
Where security is overlooked and so forth
What I find interesting was Red Hat's response
Which is, well, it's not installed by default
So what kind of excuse is that?
That's a pretty lame excuse
It's a fairly lame excuse
The only times it would ever be...
I'm sorry
And the other thing was, well, nobody uses it
Well, what the hell kind of product is that?
Are you taking pride in the fact that nobody uses this thing that you wrote?
Oh, boy
I mean, you're seeking safety in the fact that your product isn't popular
I mean, that's the kind of approach that you would expect from Microsoft
That's it, I was going to say that
It sounds like Microsoft
And in fact, Microsoft has its own little problem
With a little bitty DLL file
If you're familiar with NT bug track
NT bug track is a form where people track down
And attempt to beat senseless bugs in Microsoft Windows NT and similar products
And there is a...
You've probably heard of this
The Netscape engineers are weenies
Yeah, I heard about that
A bit
Yeah
Writing words there
Yeah, well, it's gotten way out of hand
And there's a lot of hype going on
And very few people understand what's actually happening
But if you're interested, I suggest you look for the NT bug track archives
And you look for posts from Rainforest Puppy
Who is the fellow who managed to bring this to light
And he subsequently done a very well-composed summary
Of what's happened over the past couple of weeks in regards to this
Okay, our phones are full
Look at this
Every line is there
Absolutely full
212-209-2900
The most elite number in the city, right?
It's good having a 212 area code still
Yeah, right
I can tell you the heartache of being in 631
It's horrible
I called you the other time and I got this silly recording
Yeah
It was like, uh, due to an area code change
The following number is not available
You're looking for 631
Yeah, please, please dial the right number
Right
Who is that guy?
I don't know, but he's always in a switch room
And there's always noise going on around him
You know
A couple of them, you can hear him saying, go!
Right before he speaks, you know
Which is great
Okay, let's take a phone call
Let's go over here
Good evening, you're on the air
Hey, good evening
Hey, who don't?
Hanging in there
Listen, um, Emmanuel, I got a big issue with you on Napster
Okay
I'll tell you why, I'm a musician
It's easy for somebody from somebody like Limp Bizkit to walk around and say
Hey, this is what our fans want
It's fine
This guy's on tour, he's making money, he's selling CDs
Okay
There are lots of places on the net where an artist who's trying to get their music heard
Can have it done legitimately with their choice
The nature of a site like Napster is for people to, you know, record their CDs
Make mp3s of them and share their hard drives with the rest of the world
So other people can get the files
This is not, you know, this basically removes the choice of the artist
As to whether they want to put their music up or not
But here's the thing though
I mean, you're basically battling technology here
Because yeah, okay, maybe if Napster isn't around
Someone can still record your CD on an mp3
And spread it all over the net in a different way
So how do you deal with that?
Well, yeah, but that's not a mass distribution tool
Something like Napster is
Well, Napster can be used for good and bad
But yeah, it's a distribution tool
It can be used to distribute something that wants to be distributed
Or it doesn't want to be distributed
But I don't think Napster is the problem
I think what people might be doing with copyrighted music
That's a problem
But that's going to happen with or without Napster
Yes, but by the same standpoint
You could also look and say
Okay, look, you have the technology
If you have the technology
To be able to make this kind of distribution
Then you also have the technology to be able to regulate it
Which means if somebody's trying to put up a copyrighted piece of work
Scan it for a name
If it's a popular artist, don't let the file up
You know, again, if it's a voluntary
We upload mp3s
We got them on sites all over the place
But it's a voluntary upload
And we do it with a limited amount of music
So that people can hear it if they're interested in it
And if they're interested, then they can buy the CDs
You know, but just wholesale
Allowing wholesale unregulated distribution of mp3 files
Without checking to see whether it's intellectual property
And I mean, look, I know that's a sticky wicket
Because some people feel like all this stuff should be free
But you know, somebody created it
And somebody took the time to write it and perform it
And I know that, you know, labels take a lot onto the cost of a CD
But you know what?
Right now labels are really the only form of hard distribution
Even most of the larger independents are all distributed by big labels
So if you're an artist and you really want to be heard
Sometimes that's a necessary evil
The net makes it possible for people to hear your stuff
In terms of distributing it
It's just not the case
I don't think it's a necessary evil
Just because the independents have been bought up by all the biggies
You know, you can now distribute your own music
You don't need the record companies anymore
You can to a point
But you know what?
You still run into the same issues
And you know, look, we could talk about this for a half hour
But you know, try calling a distributor and saying
Hi, I want you to distribute my stuff
Well, the first thing I'm going to say to you is
Okay, well, you got any radio play?
You got press?
Now the first thing you say is
No, I don't have radio play
Because I'm not distributed anywhere
And nobody wants to play me on the radio
Because I'm not distributed
It's a vicious cycle
Right
And the point is
This is something that the majors and the larger independents
Are able to accomplish
So I mean, look, the net is great for this
Because it means an artist can independently promote themselves
But again, it's their choice
You know, if you're Whitney Houston
You don't care if 100,000 people are trading MP3s
You're rich already
Actually, no, that's what interests me
Is that the people who are rich already
Are the ones that are yelling about this the most
That's what I've seen so far
Well, yeah, but look, they're also the most visible
You know who Pat DiNonzio is?
No
Lead singer from Smithereens
He was on PAI Monday or Tuesday
He's been driving across the country for the past six months
Touring by himself with a car
Doing a living room tour
God bless him
And he was complaining about Napster
He was saying, look, people are trading my music
You know, this is my living
This is how I feed my kids
And people are trading my music
Which means they're taking money out of my mouth
Bottom line
Are they?
But how do you prove that they're taking money
When record sales are going up?
How do you prove that?
Yeah, well, are record sales going up for him?
Look, if somebody's trading his files
If two people are getting his files
That means one of them is listening to it
Without paying for it
Simple
That's true
But it also means people are listening to it
Whereas maybe they would never listen to it before
That's fine
But if people are listening to it
And they're not paying for it
What's the difference?
He's not making a living from it
It's his art
It's his career
It's his craft
It's, you know, it's what he spent the past 15 years building up
And now by the simple transfer of a file
You're taking money out of his pocket
What it comes down to is
Or you're helping him spread his music around
You know, there's two ways of looking at this
The fact of the matter is it has to be his choice
The artist is the creator of this, of his creation
And he has the ability
And in fact the right to designate and figure out
That's an interesting point
And I think, you know, I'd like to see
I'd like to see designations on these songs
Yes, you may spread
You know, I'd like to have artists come forward
That want their music spread this way
And maybe we'll get a whole new class of musicians
That simply want their music to be heard
Yes, but it's an issue of consent
Right, but they will agree to this
They will say, yes, you know, listen to my music on the net
Spread it around, you know
But don't burn it and sell it and say it's yours
You know, that's wrong
At present that environment does not exist
But Napster offers an opportunity for that environment to exist
I would like to see Napster move completely away from commercial music
And just focus on non-commercial music
I mean, I have no control over that
I can't say what kind of music people are going to listen to
But I think it would be better if it was used for unheard artists
And a way to trade music like that
And I think most unheard artists would want that
And would welcome that
Yes, but you have to find out if this artist would want that
Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying
They would say, yes, do it this way
Send, you know, spread the music around this way
But here's the thing
How do you prevent people from breaking those rules
Without some draconian way of controlling the technology
I don't see how they're going to do that
You can do that within the society itself
How?
If you refuse to trade with people who go about these unethical practices
They will kind of wither on the vine and die and fall away
Don't we can apply that to like real thieves and
Other criminals just refuse to deal with them
Well, let's see if no one buys the man's drugs on the corner
I guess he's not going to be managing to buy from his supplier
And just say no
Yes, just say no
That works remarkably well
Let's move on to another phone call
212-209-2900
Good evening, you're on the air
Yeah, I just want to talk about some things about
You know, what you were talking about
Let me correct you
You're going to talk about a thing
And it's not going to be an email address
So you have
Or a payphone
You have 15 seconds starting now
Okay, you can email me at rebel and make
You know, he's getting cocky
I don't like that
I really don't like that
I'm just going to have to have another talking to
Good evening, you're on the air
Hi, how are you doing?
Good, how are you?
Well, thanks
Some comments
I didn't quite remember the name of the person who was saying about how
I'd like to see more happening than people lying down the streets
And to me, he's really buying you
I'm Isaac
Yeah, I think that would be Isaac
Media blackout on, you know
I mean, one of the big organizers of both those demonstrations
Was the 50 Years is Enough campaign
And their lie to the International Forum on Globalization
These are heavy hitters like David Corton, Helena Norberg-Hodge,
Mandana Shiva, Jerry Mander
I mean, these people are out lying on the streets getting tear gassed
They're going around the world lecturing
They're putting out magazines
Positive Futures Network
That's the important one
Yes Magazine
Edward Goldsmith, another one who's involved in the 50 Years is Enough campaign
I think the point that she's trying to make is that
They don't stop at just writing articles
They also participate in a demonstration
These are heavy hitters
They're writing books
You know Yes Magazine put out by
Positive Futures
You should get that
I'm familiar with it
Very sophisticated
Exactly, but this is the kind of work that should be
More supported than the Getting Tear Gassed
But it is supported
That's what I'm telling you
The media, the mainstream media doesn't talk about it
It is supported
It's huge
Yes, the Positive Futures Magazine
Here's a question I have for you, Isaac
You're saying Getting Tear Gassed is wrong
I'm not saying it's wrong
I think you should focus on the people who are spreading the gas
Not the people who are receiving it
At no point did I say it was wrong
I said it's less effective
There is very little that can be accomplished by having tear gas
Blown in your face
Tell that to the people who send the tear gas into their faces
It doesn't sound like you're aware of all that's going on
And the very powerful movement
Do you know the people I'm talking about and their work?
I'm familiar with them
I'm familiar with them, but only because I take the time to invest
I'm familiar with the Positive Futures
I'm familiar with them only because I take the time to investigate this kind of thing
Well, of course, but they're playing
I mean, read it
You don't know what's going on
That's what's clear
And I think you should really get on the line
It's really a lot
Then tell me what's going on
Very powerful movement
It's not just kids out in the street
Waving signs
Understood
They're out there because
People like David Corton and Jerry Mander have been trekking back and forth across the planet
Lecturing at every college
You know, they've just been blanketing the world
And that's why these kids know about it
That's why they're out there
That's the kind of action that I see is more important
If you can walk around in the demonstrations with picket signs that say
Read these people or look at these resources
That's a lot more effective
That's what you learn about things like that at demonstrations
You talk to lots of people
You trade information
You hand out things
And that's what people learn
These people work with corporate boards of directors
With governments
You know, these are heavy hitters
Now listen, these kids who are out there
That you're talking about are out there because of these people
Okay, so put them at work
Have them write articles for Yes! Magazine
Have them do the speaking tools
They're doing it
Have you read Yes! Magazine?
Why are you continuing to go back to this point?
Have I read Yes! Magazine?
It's irrelevant
You haven't told me if you've read it
I am familiar with Yes! Magazine
I have not bought a copy
And I have not read it
Okay, we're going to make two stops tonight
I've got to get the Limp Bizkit record
And then we're going to go to Yes! Magazine
But let me just ask the caller one last question
And we've got to move on
As far as media, things that you listen to or watch
I'm talking about, you know, TV and radio media
I don't watch TV
Is there nothing that presents another side
Other than mass media that you know of?
I don't understand the question
Well, basically, I'm looking for some source of information
That people can look at
That will give them something
Other than the corporate America view of things
Yes, you know, there are a lot of books out
Those are books
I mean, is there any kind of media, you know?
Yes! Magazine, The Ecologist, lots of other magazines
But radio, TV, anything along those lines?
I don't watch TV
And I don't have a lot of time to listen to radio
I listen to BAI
But this stuff is out there
I go to lectures
These people lecture in New York
I go
I listen to what they're doing
Stuff's happening
It's powerful
There are hundreds of thousands of farmers rioting all across India
Do you know that?
Yes
Yeah, well, they're facing mass starvation over there
Yeah, but why do you think there are people
This same group of people I'm talking about
Vandana Shiva is one of the same group
She's in the International Forum on Globalization
And 50 Years is Enough campaign
She helped organize these demonstrations
That's why the people in India are out there
Because there's leadership
And it's happening all over the world
We just have a media blackout in this country
On this movement
Absolutely
Hey, thanks for the call
You're welcome
I'm able to find some things
As you know, I get the little 18-inch dish thing
DirecTV
DirecTV
I'm able to watch other networks
You'd be amazed how much you can learn just by watching news from other countries
There's a channel called News World International
Which is run by CBC
But they don't just stop at Canada
They air news from all over the world
Throughout the course of a day
And you just see so many different perspectives
And you see news that you never see here
BBC America has news four times a day
Although, you know, it really upsets me
That channel is censoring stuff left and right
Because they don't want to offend American audiences
Do yourself a favor
So annoying
I've already talked to them
And I'm writing a letter
If that's what you want me to do
But I'm also encouraging other people to do the same thing
Because, I mean, come on
You turn on BBC
You expect to see BBC
Not something watered down for America
It's ridiculous
The point I'm trying to make is that
We've all heard those words before, anyway
The point I'm trying to make is that
When you write the letters
It's a lot more effective than standing out in front of the building
And holding a sign
Do you think if we wrote letters to Miramax
That would have made a difference?
I got you there
Yes
I don't think so
If you involved
Everybody talks about the demonstration
Nobody talks about the letters
Who talks about the demonstration?
Let's be a little more real here
The people in the industry
The people who made the film
They talk about the demonstration
It's an issue of shock value
Well, it worked
Whatever you want to call it, it worked
Besides those channels
I would encourage everyone to go out and get yourself a shortwave radio
Oh, yeah
Listen to the broadcast
Yeah
But stay away from the American stations
It's just really legit
A lot of the American stations have value
While this caller was talking about
The tens of thousands of farmers in India who are rising up
How about the tens of thousands of farmers in the Midwest
Who are in equally dire straits
Who are still having problems with their local government
The fact that they're, you know
The conditions of the soil
The incredible amount of taxes that they're having to be burdened with
I mean, you have some domestic issues, too
You can't ignore that side of it
Yeah, a family farm is something that is very much in danger
Because of organizations like WTO as well
You need government intervention to protect these things
And that's what these organizations take away
Is the right for governments to do this kind of thing
To protect certain industries and farms and things like that
See if we can squeeze in a couple more phone calls
Good evening, you're on the air
Okay
The rule is you got to talk
That's how it works
Good evening, you're on the air
Yeah, I just noticed
Goodbye
Does he think we're stupid?
Is that what he thinks?
Good evening, you're on the air
Hello?
Yes, go ahead
Welcome, guys
How you doing?
How are you?
Good, I just wanted to weigh in with my Napster comment
Go ahead
All right, I guess I just think that you'd be really, really hard-pressed
To find a musician who works their whole life
To make CDs and make their art
And then have them do it only for profit
Okay
You know what I'm saying?
I'm not quite sure
I'm really disappointed in Metallica and their lawsuit
Just because I know when I've read their biographies
James used to go over to Lars' house and copy his records
I mean, it's the same thing, just on a grander scale
Let's get some pictures of that
Let's get some records of that illegal activity
Exactly
I mean, I guess, would they be doing it for the money?
I don't think so
Everybody copies friends' albums
The only difference here is that it's digital
It sounds just as good
It's digital, so that's...
It's not just digital
It's the fact that there's a system much broader
Than going down the street and listening to some other guy's record
And saying, oh, that's really neat
Well, people used to say that of cassette tapes
That that was a whole industry designed for nothing but pirating records
No, I'm not saying that it's designed for pirating records
But the fact is that you have a forum where all this kind of thing is happening
Yeah, but you see, the net provides forums for all kinds of things
And that's, you know...
The threat, again, is the net
You know, we're able to bring all these people together
Who have similar interests
And all of a sudden, you've got a problem
But, you know, it works both ways
You have all kinds of people who are fans of a group
Getting together when they never could before
Yes, and the difference between the fan
And the people taking advantage of the situation
Is a moral fiber that runs through the hearts of the fans
Well, if a group has fans, they're not going to screw the group over
I'm relatively certain of that
It becomes a matter of personal responsibility
When you are empowered like this
You have to watch and be responsible over your own actions
Okay, thanks for the call
Thanks
Claude, where do you think you're going?
You sit back down until the show's over
Trying to slink away here
He's going to sneak, that's right
No, we're taking one more phone call
Then you can slink away after the closing credits
Good evening, you're on the air
Yeah, hello?
Yeah, make it fast
Okay, Isaac, you are under a naive delusion
That the brilliance of your argument
Is going to sway politicians on this WTO issue
Don't you think that there was a big lobbying effort in 1994 to stop this?
And if the civil rights movement used your methods
It'd still be water fountains labeled for coloreds only
Your attitude is the typical libertarian
Play it safe
Don't make waves attitude that gets you absolutely nowhere
It's guaranteed to fail
The media is totally controlled by globalists
That's why there's a blackout on the opposition to this stuff
And you even mentioned the BBC
That's totally globalist too
You're not going to get a true picture of what's going on here
Actually, the gentleman across the way here mentioned BBC
I mentioned BBC, but you're right about BBC
But they're still better than what we have here
And also, what do you think has fueled the rise in Wall Street values?
The profits there
They've been sending American jobs over to slave labor markets around the world
Actually, I would argue that it's a bunch of greedy people
Over-inflating the value of worthless stocks and tech market
But that's all right
Thank you very much for the call
I want to buy that guy a drink actually
Good way to end the show
Yeah, well, anyway, interesting show
Hopefully next week we'll deal with some more issues
Having to deal with the technology itself
But, you know, feel free to write us
oth2600.com with your feedback
It's Emanuel for Isaac and Claude
Have a good night
Now we can go?
Yeah, you can go
We can go
So
The prisoner's shout out line is an open invitation to every concerned heart
And informed mind
It's a means to send a personal supportive message to a friend or loved one behind bars
Share in the vicarious joy of making someone's day with encouraging words of concern
We've got to find a way to help them find their way