The Palestinian reality? What's really happening in the Muslim lands? A new memoir by Professor
Laila Ahmed? Or Muslim political candidates in the USA? These and more are questions you
can hear discussed on Tafrir, WBAI's magazine of the Arab Muslim community. Marhaba, I'm
Barbara Nimri-Aziz, and I'd like you to join me and our Tafrir staff every Tuesday night
at 9 o'clock. That's Tuesdays from 9 to 10 p.m. here on listener-sponsored WBAI 99.5
FM in New York. You're sure to find something new, and sometimes, controversy.
You're tuned to listener-sponsored non-commercial WBAI in New York. That program coming up at 9 p.m.
this evening. Tafrir with Dr. Barbara Nimri-Aziz. As it is 20-hundred hours, 8 p.m., we are awaiting
Senior Emmanuel Goldstein. So if anyone's out there in the ether floating around to see Emmanuel,
point him towards WBAI New York. Gee whiz, I was going to sing the theme, seeing as we don't have
it, but I've done that before, and I've had threats made on my life because I sang somebody's theme.
It destroyed it thoroughly. So I think we're just going to go into, we have some gentlemen here
of the Off The Hook Crew Collective, as it were. Introduce yourselves, guys.
Good evening, this is Mike here. Welcome to Off The Hook. Hey, how you doing? This is
the anonymous guy, just sitting here on the red microphone in place of Isaac. I cut myself
while shaving that I can't make a call. I can't help myself. This is XRD. I'm also not Isaac.
Eric, where are you? And I'm not Chevy Chase, either. So, I don't know. Do we have any music
that we can, like, at least riff to? Sure, I can ramp. I'm going to do this.
Oh, there you go. This is C to the past radio, people.
Yeah, I was just listening to the show before, this is the Expert Witness show,
and it seems to be falling in the theme that hackers and all people can take to their heart,
which is that you can't rely on the system that's in place to uncover this information that's
out there for you to uncover. You have to do it yourself. And whether that means going to Canada
over the weekend to challenge the power in place for the free trade agreement of the Americas,
or hacking kernel code on Linux, or creating your own independent media and commercial free media
like here we have at BAI. And actually, I don't want to bring up internal BAI politics,
but I do want to say that my experience just now, where Eric is not here, and
the kind hosts here at BAI said, well, do you guys, you know, want to talk about hacking stuff
on the radio? And they had never seen any of us except for maybe Mike before. And just let us
write on the radio, because they believe in free speech radio. And that's where it's at. And so
the FBI hacked into Russian computers this weekend, or over the past couple over the past
week, or it was announced this weekend. And because they claim they have no jurisdiction
in Russia, so they could social engineer passwords out of so called Russian hackers who were hacking
into American computers, which generally speaks to the low paranoia level of the Russians.
What was the purpose or the stated purpose of this hacking?
The apparently story on MSNBC and CNN, very few details. But the details that I gleaned were that
Russian hackers posing, you know, posing as hackers were lured by a false American computer
security company, which was created by the FBI, sort of a honeypot thing. And the name of the
company, I think, was called Invita. Like they were inviting the hackers to hack them. And then
when they hacked the supposed security company, they were offered jobs here in the United States.
And they stupidly were social engineered into revealing their usernames and passwords
by the FBI agents posing as computer security professionals, which they probably are. But
they're law enforcement computer security specials. So because it's in Russia, they can lie?
Because it's in Russia, they can social engineer the password. And and they actually tricked them
into coming to the United States to get jobs. And then they arrested them when they got here.
For what crime? Do you know? For hacking into computers in the United States. So this was kind
of a counterattack? This is like, yes, this is it was termed reverse hacking in the CNN article.
And I don't know. Reverse hack. That's like hacking upside down. It's like that's like
rot 13. It's hacking upside down. And so and what else?
Anything? Anything you know of happened over the and you know, nothing at all. So we're just gonna
we can't just sit here. Yeah, exactly. We have to talk about stuff. And well,
why don't I take advantage of the radio with nothing going on to announce an event this weekend?
The New York City Campus Greens are organizing a citywide forum this Saturday at 3pm down at
or I guess it's up from here at New York University. And we're going to have Tom
Tomorrow who draws the cartoon This Modern World and Reverend Billy of the Church of Stop Shopping.
All right. So sounds like a good time. And I especially encourage any students to come. But
the public is welcome. And it's free admission. That's 3pm this Saturday. Is there a h2 k one
coming up? My understanding, my understanding is there will be one next year in 2002.
So it'll be a two. Yeah, this year in the summertime, there's the chaos computer clubs.
Oh, wait, no, it's not the chaos computer club. What's the what's the it's called how 2001
hackers hackers at large at large in the Netherlands in August. And so I'm planning
to attend that. And that should be quite an interesting thing because it brings together
people from all walks of the computer life. Usually these European events do not just supposed
hackers, but computer professionals and people who are in law enforcement, and people who are
on the programming side, rather than the deprogramming side of computers.
And if you're worried, the official language of the program is English. So you you don't even
have to learn a foreign language, which you should, though you should. Anyway,
Dutch might not be your your top might not be your top choice. But
will that even be webcast? You know, for those of us that can't afford a ticket,
I think that some I'm certain that some portions of it will be recorded and webcast either live or,
or probably at a later date. But these hackers, they're getting the hang of that internet thing.
So it it might be webcast in its entirety. I'm not sure. I haven't read more than just the basic
details from the planners. Okay, cool. I want to thank you guys to Paul Williams on the board up
here. I want to thank you guys at 2600 for webcasting WBA I speaking of webcast, you guys
have been streaming us. And that's really, really, really appreciated you doing this on your own.
I've asked you and you guys said, Okay, and you're doing it. It's great. It's good. I really
appreciate it. Yeah, I'm actually I get to I live not too far from here and get poor reception
because of the large buildings in downtown. So I listened to the 2600 webcasts of BAI
all during the week, not just during off the hook. Cool. That's very nice. Yeah,
I should I should also mention that we're working on getting an mp3 stream up working for those of
you who may not have or may not want real player. And it was working last week, but it stopped
working now and we should have it up again in the next couple days. So really, so that should be
and if I may just to just I want to thank Roman Kazan over the escape.com which I found out
through you guys way back in the mid 90s when nobody was on the internet, except the porno
folks in the UFOs and the hackers and the hackers and they're streaming us also Windows
media player is a long URL as does another server. Thanks, Roman. Thank you, buddy. And we should
also thank the folks at knack.net net access corporation who are providing the new stream
once we get it working again. Very cool. Very cool. Anything else that we should any upcoming
whatever happened to Bernie? Yes. How's he doing? He's I don't know. He's out of jail and he's going
about his life. I take Emmanuel is the one to he would he would be the contact your point man on
Bernie. What about Kevin Mitnick? We don't hear about him anymore. Is he out or is he in? He's
out. And the last that I heard of him was that he was fighting or had successfully fought the
conditions of his probation which disallowed him from even speaking about computers to people.
Although he did testify before Congress while that was ongoing while that appeal was ongoing. So
that's insane. So much for free speech in America. Well, you know,
my understanding is that he has a radio show or co host a radio show out in California now.
I don't know the details about that. But I'm sure you can find them. But he can't talk about
computers. I think he I think he can now talk about computers. He still can't use still can't
operate them. Yeah. I mean, that's like saying you can't have a telephone in your house. You know,
back in the day when I was a kid back in the 50s or 40s or 30s. People that applied for public
assistance. If the welfare worker came to your home and saw a phone, you were cut off. And that's
really insane. Because how the heck you're going to get a job, you know, and nowadays,
really keep one nowadays. I mean, you got to have you got to have a computer. You got to
have a computer. You got to be connected to the net. I mean, these are just not necessities,
like having a bathroom, like having indoor plumbing. How could they tell a person because
they figured that he may have misused it? And that's the question, I believe, that he cannot
have such an item cannot use the technology. They being the big bad government government.
Well, it's you know, we see that there are the rules are fixed for most people,
but they're very flexible for other people. And so we see like in Canada,
like I heard earlier this afternoon here on BAI, that apparently the Parliament of Canada found
that the fence around Quebec City was unconstitutional. However, that was okay.
Just for this once, just this once, as long before for a for a, a, the free trade area
of the Americas Agreement, who only accepted, quote, unquote, democratic countries
with the constitutional governments into their ranks, excluding Cuba,
interesting how they decided every country in the hemisphere, except Cuba, was democratic
democracy. And but then they could suspend the terms of that democracy
to hold the meeting about democracy. Is that a it's like 1984? You know? Yeah, I think we're
thinking we need to buy something. Yeah, exactly. I think we're thinking too much. I keep hearing a
cash register going off. It's too bad we don't have a cash register. You know, this is what's
going on at XRD. You're sitting there smiling, man. This is radio, not television, bro.
Okay, you're listening to off the hook and we're definitely way off the hook.
Way off the hook. Not even trying to get there. Yeah. If you want to join in the fun, you can try
212-209-2900. Oh yeah, that's right. This is listener sponsored radio here at WBAI. We would love to hear from
listeners. And I'm certain that they have something to say, unlike me. Well, they're
starting to ring us up. Here they come. All right, why don't we take one of these calls? So you know who you are and
ring us up here at 212-209-2900. We got one or two or three. Gee, that's all. Okay, we'll give it a shot.
It's WBAI. It's you. Go. Hello, you're on the air. Get rid of uterus late now. Okay, bye-bye.
See, I'm sorry. You see, you're acting like a juvenile. You know, you act like a juvenile.
If people want to comment on the situation, that's one thing. But really, name calling and bashing,
that's, you act like a, you know, wait a minute. What do I got against juveniles? Nothing.
I mean, that's so... That's right, giving juveniles a bad name. Really, really, that is petty behavior.
And it only shows, well, I won't say what it shows. WBAI, you're on the air. Hello. Hello. Okay, well,
if we are allowed to talk about, because the interim manager came and talked about a report,
gave a report to the listeners, right? If you want to... Apparently. I didn't hear that, so
it's all hearsay. So keep going. If you want to give comments, try to keep the personalities out
of it. No, sure. I'm talking about the WBAI, which is a radio, and I'm one of the listeners.
She spoke for about four hours. I think we're all listeners here. Go ahead. Yeah, I'm sure you are
also. And the listeners did not have any time to respond to it. They gave them only 20 minutes.
That's true, I heard that. I've been trying to get through for about 12 days. Wow. Anyway. Well,
have you sent letters? Have you written them? Yeah, I'm going to. You can write her, you can
send a fax. Why don't we give out the address? There's other media. 120 Wall Street, on the 10th
floor, New York 1005. Yes. Send your emotions. And I think it would be fair that you also speak
on the air a little bit. Well, you know, there's not written anywhere in any manual that says
we have to give so much air time to anyone. Okay. Okay. So I can understand what you're saying.
I've been with the station for a little while, but it was, they wanted to, there were things
that management had to say, as you know, nothing's really been said about this from the inside for
quite a while. So there's a lot to say, you know, and so listeners do not have the, they are not,
I think it was time for the listeners to listen. I see, you know, I mean, that's my opinion.
They don't have to contribute to the radio. No, absolutely. I think that, you know, it's too bad
that you didn't get to say something for 12 days. But do you have something to say now rather than
just telling your story about that you have been trying for so long? Okay. Yeah. This is, this is
why I just wanted to respond to someone. For instance, she used all kinds of words like
public vomiting. Well, you know something, she's here. Let me see if she wants to come in and have
a discussion with you. Would you like that? Okay. But they didn't have, they didn't give us time to
Did you hear what I said? She's here. And I'll ask if she wants to come in and join the discussion.
That's fine. Okay. Hold on. I mean, carry on. Yeah. Okay. All right. Continue, please. Okay.
I'm sorry. Is Mr. Goldstein here? He has not arrived yet. He is somewhere. Oh, he hasn't
arrived. No. But he's going to. I hope so. I hope so. Because the same thing happened to Deepa
Fernandez, for instance. Oh, no, no, he's it's not that he's been excommunicated or banned. He's
just missing. He's just late. He's probably stuck on a train like he was a couple weeks ago.
There are a couple of things I wanted to say. First of all, she said that on 22nd of December,
what happened was not coup d'etat, it was a counter coup. I wanted to give a historical
analogy about that. I'm from Iran and 1953, a coup d'etat happened. And the mastermind of that
coup d'etat was Teddy Roosevelt. I mean, the grandson of Teddy Roosevelt. His name was
what now I have. Anyway, later on, he wrote a book, which was, the title was Countercoup.
When the interim manager said that that was a countercoup, it immediately reminded me of that
book. And also, you know, that in Indonesia later on, when in 1965, they did the coup d'etat,
they said it was a countercoup. And I think there is an analogy with this.
Second, she said that the radio should not be a laissez faire, something that whoever wants to
say whatever they can say. I think she said whatever she wanted to say. For instance,
she said, those who are opposing me, they are fifth grade students. By that she meant,
for instance, probably Noam Chomsky or Howard Zinn, and she probably is the full professor
of MIT and Harvard, and those are fifth grade students. And they are not worth adversaries,
that they are not, you know, she's heavyweight, and they are really lightweight.
She said that those who are opposing these firings and bannings, they are disinformation
and misinformation. And she, of course, probably is giving the correct information to the listeners.
Whereas one of the listeners insisted and said, how much did you collect in the last
fundraiser? And she never gave him an answer. She did not give anybody. In fact, we still don't
know how much has been collected, really. And what she has been giving us was disinformation
and misinformation. She said that these people who are opposing these firings, they are not mature
enough. It is silliness, what they are doing. They are making erroneous statements. She said
that this is a white fight. Look at this. Mr. Nieves this morning says that you have been
stabbing us in the back. What is, isn't this... Hello, you're going on and on and on. And we do
have other listeners on the line, okay? And we do want to talk about computers and hacking and that
sort of stuff. All right. Well, thank you for giving me this chance to say some of the points.
You got it. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned. Thanks very much.
Okay, so back to computers, even though it's all sort of kind of related, because it's all about
seeking out knowledge and going to primary sources rather than secondary or tertiary sources
for your information. And in computers, we call that reading the source code. And
you can leave it to the, as an exercise for the listener to extrapolate that into their
real life behaviors. And let's talk about computer hacking. And do you have anything
to say at all? Are you just going to listen? Picked a bad day to come here and be silent.
There's no lurking on WVAI. I know we did say call, so maybe we'll take some more calls.
But let's keep it on hacking, folks. Because this station is hacky enough. WVAI, it's you.
Hi there. How you doing? Good. Thanks. This has something to do with the web and the internet.
Hi, Patty. How you doing, Paul? Good. It's good to hear your voice. Yeah, thanks. I'm calling
because there's a group, the Coalition for a Democratic Pacific New York, which is a listeners
group that's been around for about five years, trying to help save the Pacifica Foundation from
itself. And I think that the focus, people are going to call in and talk about the issues that
more education needs to be done about the Pacifica Foundation. And it's three lawsuits against it.
And what they're trying to do now on the internet is, as the administrator of www.wbai.net,
I am being sued by the Pacifica Foundation for trademark infringement. And they decided they
are going to go through with it. In February, they wrote a threatening letter. And they finally
have decided that, anyway, it's a verbal. So far, it's no paperwork I haven't seen. But
they spoke to my attorney, who is Paul Levy, from the public citizen, Ralph Nader's group,
citizen.org, the citizen litigation group. And Paul Levy from Public Citizen is going to be
representing me and the website, as well as savepacifica.net, and also freewpfw.net.
Yeah, this is definitely along the same lines as we've seen much of the
so-called intellectual property disputes with the word sucks in domain names and supposedly
confusingly similar domain names and supposedly intellectual property violations. And
as far as I know, the courts have upheld that this is legal and it's a form of political speech,
or it's a form of parody. And I certainly don't presume to give any legal advice or anything like
that. But I really do have seen that in the past couple of years now, these intimidation tactics
by high-paid law firms are just out to get people to give up and not fight. And I would encourage
you to fight absolutely all the way. We're going to fight it because, of course, we've been lucky
to have the lawyers we have. And the last internet lawsuit that Paul Levy fought was also
one called alitaliasucks.com, where some man, they locked his luggage and they gave him trouble. So
he made a website, alitaliasucks, and he actually won too. So I think we're in good hands, but I
think that's what people... Is that Allstate? I'm sorry. The Italian airline? It's not a copyright?
We're in good hands? Sorry. Oh, now they're going to come after me for that too. But I think that
this is something that we have to look at on a national level and on a level of
leveling our attacks on somewhere where it's really going to make a difference someday. And
that's against the Pacifica Foundation, who has become self-electing, has three lawsuits against
it, and now they're going after the listeners and anybody that would say anything different.
I think this is very important issues to be discussing. Absolutely. And I think that I
would encourage you, and I know that I've seen some of the work that you do, I would encourage
people not only to think of it nationally, but to think of it locally, because it's the local
power that's being eroded even faster than the national sovereign power by the Free Trade
Agreement of the Americas, and the World Intellectual Property Organization, and the World Bank, and
all of the conglomerations and centralizations of power. But if we act locally rather than
nationally, it's certainly... I wanted to also talk about Emmanuel's upcoming court case,
which is May 1st, which is next Tuesday, and that's coming up. And that is the appeal of his
conviction and a statement by the Electronic Frontier Foundation. The Electronic Frontier
Foundation is paying his legal fees and also helping to structure his defense, obviously. And
he's a journalist, and he's not here to speak for himself. He's lost on a train somewhere,
apparently, and or abducted by the National Security Agency or something.
And so he lost his case against the Motion Picture Association of America, and this is the appeal.
It's next Tuesday, May 1st, at the Federal Appeals Court right here in Manhattan.
Right here in Manhattan.
And the public is welcome. It'll be about an hour long.
Absolutely encouraged.
There's another public event, too.
Well, we got to go, Patty.
We got to take another caller. Sorry.
Okay.
Okay. WBAI, it's you.
Hi. Speaking of acting locally, there's going to be a demonstration this Saturday.
Oh, yeah, we know.
April 28th, a mass demonstration starts at Borough Hall in Brooklyn at Borough Hall.
It could take almost...
You know, it's very interesting.
I thought it was a listener support meeting.
Excuse me?
I thought it was a listener...
No, absolutely not.
It's very interesting that people that have a problem with what's going on here
use the media here to bash the place.
I find it...
I just said, it's very interesting that they use...
It's about changes.
Well, changes, you know, change happens.
It's about changes. In fact, last week, Emanuel announced this.
Everybody's been announcing it.
If we could just let the caller announce the event.
Excuse me?
If you could just announce the event, please.
Okay, great.
April 28th.
That's this Saturday?
Mm-hmm, this Saturday, April 28th, 12 o'clock, 12 p.m., Borough Hall, Brooklyn.
If people want more information, they can call 800-825-0055.
That's 800-825-0055.
All right, thank you.
Bye.
Hi, Bia, you're on the air.
Hi, this is Mackie.
Hey, Mackie, what's up?
Have you had a few updates here?
Okay.
It was reported in the Associated Press today that General Motors, or Ford specifically,
is suing 2600 for a domain name.
That would be the one that rhymes with truck?
Yes, truckgeneralmotors.com.
Right.
They had sent a cease and desist letter, I guess, in October,
and AP is reporting that they've gone ahead and filed a complaint in federal court.
That's always exciting.
More fun.
Another domain name dispute.
Another victory for free speech.
Yes, always more fun.
I don't know.
Do you know if this comes under the jurisdiction of WIPO,
our friends at the World Intellectual Property Organization?
No, I'll bet it would.
And I'm actually surprised that they didn't, you know,
threaten that or that they haven't just gone to WIPO directly.
Of course, you know, it's, you know, unconfirmed.
What are they...
Do you know the circumstances?
What law they're arguing that they're violating?
Of course, you know, I haven't seen any complaint yet,
and I haven't talked to anyone who's actually seen a complaint.
So this is all kind of speculation.
But this was AP reporting this today?
This was AP reporting this today?
Yes, this is the Associated Press.
It was on nandotimes.com.
Um, yeah, the cease and desist letter they sent,
which is on the 2600 website,
if you go back into the news archives and go to like October 2000.
It was basically just saying trademark infringement,
and they didn't like, you know, their good name being being published
in that close, you know, that close to that other word.
Ah, yes.
And is there any confusion?
Alleged cybersquatting, which a lot of those types of complaints would try and throw in.
That they're alleging cybersquatting?
Well, I don't think that they are in this case.
Oh, okay, because they own every other domain that they're not using
that has the word General Motors in it, with all those other nasty words.
It always struck me as odd when, you know, Verizon really sucks,
and they claim cybersquatting as if that's a domain name that they want.
Right.
You know, I mean, I've never...
They do want it.
They do want it.
They want to cybersquat it themselves.
Well, yeah, but I mean that they'd want to use,
which is what the cybersquatting statute is for.
Right.
So I don't think General Motors has said that yet,
at least not in their cease and desist letters.
They just said trademark infringement.
And I don't know, it's probably the kind of thing where if they wanted to,
they could just go to WIPO because, well, let's face it,
WIPO exists for one purpose, and that's to uphold...
That's to wipe out our rights.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Anything else?
Did you hear about the Russian reverse hacking thing?
Did you know any more details about that?
I just, you know, read a blurb.
I haven't read into that.
I can answer, you know, earlier, someone asked about Mitnick and Bernier.
Oh, yeah, right.
Kevin does have a radio show on.
It's on KFI, 6.40 a.m. on a Friday evening.
Where is that station located?
That's in Los Angeles.
And can we pick it up on the web also?
Do you know?
That's, you know, that's another interesting thing,
because you used to be able to.
They had a stream on the web.
Right.
And I think it's kfi640.com or something similar to that.
You can always check the MIT's listing of radio stations on the internet.
What happened is, you know, I emailed them and asked them
why we still had to listen to advertisements.
This was months ago, just on a whim.
I asked them, why do we still have to hear advertisements,
even though it's on the web and you're not getting paid extra for that?
And they said, oh, well, we just can't filter them out.
Now they don't have the webcasting anymore because of disputes with advertisers.
And I've heard this has happened at lots of different radio stations,
commercial radio stations, that they've had to stop streaming.
My understanding is Clear Channel Broadcasters,
which owns something like 1,200 radio stations,
a fact which is more than scary in and of itself,
demanded that all its stations pull their web streams.
Yeah, I heard something about that last week, yeah,
that they demanded that all web streaming cease immediately
because of rebroadcasting rights questions.
WBAI is not owned by Clear Channel, so you can still hear us online.
And you won't hear any commercials, either online or off.
Apparently, that's what happened to Kevin's show.
And I haven't caught it yet, because I'm not in Southern California,
but I think he recently did a show on TECSS,
and they cover those sort of issues as in-depth as you can on commercial radio,
where you have to really, you know, commercial talk radio,
we have to go for a very sort of broad eighth grade level.
Also, I heard secondhand that Emanuel is attending to some sort of emergency that came up.
And it's us missing in action.
Okay.
Oh, well, that's good to know.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thanks.
Sure, Mackie.
We wish him all the best.
And just a bit of sad news before we go to our next caller, Bill Gates.
It's no longer the world's richest man.
Oh, really?
Sunday Times in London.
Who surpassed him?
The guy who owns Walmart, Mr. Walton.
Oh, wow.
Apparently, the Microsoft stock has tanked.
Right.
He's only number two.
Wow.
Life is rough.
You know, I think we, you know, Bill Gates has gotten deservedly a lot of bad press,
but he, you know, not much mention is made of the fact that he came back from a six-month tour of
Africa and South America and the rest of the world other than Seattle
and came to a Seattle computer conference and which was all about getting the third,
the supposed third world wired for the internet.
And Bill Gates came back and said, you know, they don't need computers.
They need food and water.
And everybody was very upset with him because they said that he was, you know,
sort of had ruined the spirit of the meeting.
And frankly, you know, I think that he has, you know, even though it took him a couple
hundred billion dollars to sort of wake up to the fact that he was just another human
being living on this planet and, you know, that there was, that he might have some higher calling
to help other people, you know, and so, you know, if that's what it took, then that's what it took.
And maybe he can now turn around and now that he's the second richest man in the world and
he doesn't have to sort of maintain that standing, he can start giving more of his money away.
I look forward to it.
That would be really nice.
And that would be a very, very worthwhile change coming from Redmond, Washington.
We're taking your calls here at WBAI 212-209-2900.
And hello.
You're on the air.
Hi, how you doing?
Good.
Thanks.
How are you?
All right.
I got a question.
My son's 18 year old, just turned 18 years old the other day.
He had a good question.
PC radio show always seems to be talking about privacy issues.
But when somebody comes on with an idea for like how to happen in the phone,
everybody seems to salivate.
How come that's the case?
There seems to be a little hypocrisy there.
That's an excellent question.
That's, you know, when we talk about, you know, webcasting or, you know,
simulcasting a hackers conference that involves, you know,
compressed digital media, which is, you know, broadcast around the world.
But they're using the same kind of compressed digital media
in the new third generation cell phone networks that are being tested now.
And also in surveillance societies like Great Britain.
And they're trying to sell that here in Germany and the United States.
And we have to, you know, this it's certainly a delicate balance between
using technology to communicate with people and using the same technology to spy on people.
And it's the people who are going to, you know, the people who are controlling the networks
and the people who are controlling the cameras and controlling the microphones,
you know, that, you know, there is, you know, it's the old question, who watches the watchers?
You know, at what point does your observation of someone, be they police doing their job,
or be it, you know, someone committing a crime?
At what point does that become does that crossover into voyeurism and
pseudo pornography and just, you know, for sick thrills, like the reality shows that are
now all the rage on television?
And I think that that's a definitely, you know, it's something it's an ethical question.
And, and, you know, it has many ramifications.
Technology is, you know, most, you know, computers are tools, they can be programmed to do
things, you know, and that help people or hinder them.
And I think that that's an excellent question.
Look at the other show.
Previously, I was on Expert Witness about Vince Foster.
Yeah, how they use forensics in order to like, hide the truth from the public.
Absolutely.
You know, I mean, and at the same time, you know, I've been listening to the WPI for about 30
years, I hate to date myself, but I've been listening to it from when I was a teenager.
And I remember very being very impressed by the station having leftist point of views,
right wing point of views, every every end of the spectrum.
I just noticed that, you know, with all this stuff, trouble going on at the Pacifica,
I see that the station has been more like coalesce into a leftist organization rather than
than really a free speech, you know, outlet.
Absolutely.
That's absolutely frightening, because I think it was a great station 30 years ago.
It's not so great no more.
And I'd like to see return to that kind of period of time when you had all kinds of points of view,
all kinds of music played.
I remember, I think I remember even George Cullen being on on BAI.
Boy, we went through some mess behind that one.
That's yeah.
That's very true.
William F Buckley used to have a show here.
I think that it's absolutely right.
I think that, you know, I listened to James Lawson this morning on on Democracy Now!
And, you know, I think that he is, you know, speaking to that it's not about left or right.
And it's really about speaking, letting everybody have a chance to have their voice heard.
And and I think that the sort of the what's the word?
The conflict of not conflict, but the the, you know, the contradiction of people screaming
free speech with one, you know, out of their mouths and then keeping people away from the
microphones is is quite another thing.
And it goes on in left and the right.
And and I and, you know, I see that it's like, you know, it's something that I've seen also,
you know, not to disparage them, but with the independent media center popping up all
over the world that they, you know, they're having trouble separating their editorial
content from the facts and that they're criticizing the mainstream media for reporting what the
corporations want them to say.
But then they're going right ahead and saying what they feel.
That definitely is a trend.
Me and me and a group of people formed a group called New York Workers Rights Alliance in
order to try to get like municipal unions to be more democratic with their membership.
And we've been meeting every 75 Greenwich Street on Wednesdays at seven o'clock.
Anybody's welcome to come actually at six o'clock.
And the whole issue is to push the unions into being open and honest.
And right now, there's a very big issue.
We got a new contract proposed and it looks very good to many people.
But I'm trying to get them to use computers to relate it to the computer issues, try to
get computers in order to communicate.
Workers are very disenfranchised and very segmented throughout the city.
And there's very little communication.
So I'm trying to see if there's a way of getting chat sites or something going so that workers
could be in communication.
I mean, you go a whole day working.
You don't even discuss the contract.
It's that you're that alienated from each other.
You know, so I mean, I just think the whole concept of democratic principles, especially
unions now, if you follow what's going on, then Bob Fitch is a good spokesperson for
this type of thing.
You see, the unions are basically power blocks, just like groups you were talking about before,
you know, the government agencies that that sort of rough ride over everybody's freedom
and any more kind of groups that are from the grassroots level up in order to put.
And I was wondering, how do I get on WBI?
How would I get like a program?
Me and my group maybe have like a forum on WBI.
How does that process take place?
I never heard anyone say producers can send in their names and go on a list or anything
like to be a producer.
How does one become a segment producer in BAI?
Well, if I may answer that, what you should do is write a proposal up very clear, very
concise, and send it to D-I-A-B-E-L-F-A-Y-E.
Okay, and understand that nothing is really being considered programming wise till after
the marathon.
All right, and that'll be around June, July.
Okay, and as we are in a bit of change right now, as you all know, we're working on getting
a program director, that's a job we need filled, and that'll be filled hopefully during this
summer coming up.
And we will be looking probably for new programs and other programs.
We are definitely looking in the labor segment.
So definitely, like I said, draw up a program, draw up your idea as a proposal, make it really,
really clear and concise, and send it off to Jabel and see what happens.
That's great.
Thanks a lot for your time.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, thank you very much.
Thanks for listening.
Yeah.
This is WBAI in New York.
As some of the listeners may know, there used to be a program on this station about
labor issues, which is no longer on the air.
And we're taking your calls here.
Yeah, I just wanted to speak just for one second.
Democracy, it's a process, and it involves educating yourself, not waiting for someone
to tell you what to do.
And it involves going and seeking out facts and speaking your mind and speaking to people.
And it's a messy process because people will disagree with you constantly and frequently,
and you'll have to talk with them.
And you'll have to come to some sort of an agreement, some sort of understanding of each
other's point of views.
And then that is ostensibly how the political process works.
And it's ostensibly how the radio station is functioning.
And if we don't get to put every listener on the air and have them hear everything,
well, we're sorry about that.
But there are certain things that, sitting here in the studio, we can't speak of either
right now because of these sort of transitional measures that are in place, you know, very
much like the fence around Canada to preserve democracy.
And you want to take that?
I will try taking your calls if we hang up on someone.
I apologize.
Yeah, hello, you're on the air.
I really have nothing better to say.
All right, that's very clever.
Glad you caught up to 1997.
Hi, hello.
Hi, how are you?
Good.
OK, first of all, about 15 or 20 minutes ago, you went to get Utrecht so that she would
participate in a fair and open debate.
I'd like to know why she didn't come to the phone.
We can't speak for her.
Yeah, well, did you know you were going to go get her?
Uh, you say no.
Hold on.
We'll let the person who did that.
Well, this is a program about hacking, and that's where we should be at.
Well, I don't think so.
Well, what do you think?
OK, you're welcome to what you what you think.
If you want to, that's where it's at.
If you want to answer that question.
Now, can I go on?
If you if you want to express your opinion, that's fine.
But please, let's not attack anybody.
Is that OK with you?
Is that an attack?
Did I ask?
I'm just OK.
Make your point, please.
Yeah, my next point is, I think whoever said that people were using the station to bash
it by calling in and talking about the situation is either completely disingenuous or quite
foolish.
And I said that my name is Paul Williams.
I'm either disingenuous or foolish.
No, Paul Williams, OK?
I think that you should be aware that there are very few shows on the station that allow
people to talk about this.
You get cut off in a microsecond.
Have you been cut off, sir?
Yes, I have.
Well, you're not being cut off now.
That's right.
Right.
And I've heard many people talking about observation.
Excuse me.
Go on to some factual material.
I've heard many people talk about things here.
OK.
And we do have policies that we have to abide by.
Well, you know, that's bureaucratic.
Excuse me.
You have policies on your job, right?
That's good for corporate.
You have to explain their undefensible position.
Name calling.
I'm not calling you.
You have corporate.
Don't you have policies?
Don't you have policies on your job, sir?
I'm self-employed.
Well, good for you.
Most of us.
Most of us.
Most of us work for someone else.
And we have policies that we have to abide by.
Because I was asked to do things that the majority of us can't do that, sir.
I quit my job.
OK, I got a job with AT&T World Communications.
Excuse me, AT&T World Communications.
I quit that job as a matter of principle.
Well, good.
I'm glad many of us are there at the station who have no principles.
And I think there were some.
Well, there are many outside who have no principles as well.
Pardon me.
I've listened to their very outsider have no principles.
And the guy.
OK, good for you.
Well, I was going to use that to illustrate a point.
But I don't think you want to hear it.
Please make your point.
You're very good at making comments.
If you could, if you could.
Not allow people to finish what they're saying.
If you could please make your.
I don't want to hear what they're saying.
Sir, if you could please make your point.
And we won't interrupt you.
Well, in my opinion, I think that it's fair to call up and criticize what's been going on.
Because what's been going on has abrogated the principles upon which the station was built.
And I have been listening for 38 years.
And there were a lot of myths being perpetuated by the current
coupmeisters who were there.
I mean, I heard them say that the station was segregated in the 60s.
You know, I listened to a lot of shows by people of all types.
And that was a complete lie.
I mean, I heard you talk about baby boomers whose parents gave them stocks.
I mean, who is she talking about?
Amy Goodman?
You know, I mean, it's so obvious to me that she acts as.
If we could refrain from personal attacks on her.
Okay, well, the management of the station.
Sir, can you make your point?
Because other people want to call.
I know you don't want to hear this.
No, it's not that we don't want to hear it.
Sir, if I didn't want to hear it, all I would do is push a button.
Yeah.
And then you'd be in the ether.
Like the.
Okay, so please.
Wow, you're powerful.
You're acting disrespectful.
You're the one that's being disrespectful.
No, that's not.
Over this.
You said that the person was bashing the station by calling in and wanting to talk about the
situation.
I think you're.
By making an announcement that.
Don't lump us all into one thing, because there's at least four people in this room.
Although one of them.
I wouldn't say anything there, by the way, because I think we have a point of view on
this as well.
Look, you trees didn't want to come on the air.
Okay.
And because this is a computer hacking show, if you want to look at the caller was talking
about the talk back show, which I heard.
Responsibility.
Right.
And so why don't they call during that producer's hour?
And yeah, sorry about that.
We do.
We do appreciate the points that we're trying to be made.
But the personal attacks are not getting anywhere.
And look, you know, there are things going on around here that are probably very wrong
and personal attacks will not bring those facts to light.
And as well, there are many things going around going on here that are right.
Yes, that's true.
Major changes without a doubt and major changes in a positive way.
And many, many out there know that has happened.
And unfortunately, there's some that don't.
And that's okay.
Time will tell.
Got to give things time.
All right, gentlemen, we can take a couple more running out of time.
Yeah, we can take a couple more calls.
And then the number again, 212-209-2900.
Hi, you're on the air.
I have a question.
Utrecht had a report to the listener of last week.
I think we've been over this ground before, sir.
She's not here.
She can't answer your question.
Why didn't she mention anything about John Murdoch?
She's not here to answer your question.
And I don't know.
Please relay the question to her.
Okay.
Very good, sir.
Why hasn't she mentioned anything about John Murdoch rewriting the bylaws or attempting
to rewrite the bylaws?
If you've seen the bylaws, sir, if you've seen a draft of the bylaws at the top,
it says for the widest possible distribution.
Okay, I think we'll move on.
Yes, sir.
All right.
John Murdoch, of course, is a lawyer for the firm of Epstein, Becker, and Green.
But Steph, I don't receive memos.
I can only infer the policies from the times I've been here.
Is there or is there not a gag rule?
Sir, there is a policy in which we do not discuss internal matters on the air.
We try to work on these issues.
Excuse me.
Excuse me.
I'm not being rude to you.
You're being very rude to me.
I do not appreciate your rudeness.
Why don't you tell us what's on your mind?
You took the time to call, obviously.
What I want to say is whatever you have to say, say it.
People on the weekend, say it.
I listened to the jazz show in the morning.
He says what he feels.
No repercussion.
Say what you have to say.
Stand up for it.
We do.
That's all I have to say.
Thank you.
Other people who stand up, they get respect.
Thank you for that.
Thank you.
Hi, you're on the air.
Hello.
Sorry.
Hi, you're on the air.
Too weird.
Oops, lost people.
Hello.
Hi.
It's you.
I'd like to talk about computers and phones.
All right.
Do you remember when life wasn't annoying?
I don't think I ever was.
No.
When you used to be able to call somebody and not have to hear, we're sorry.
We have only a couple minutes left.
Okay, quickly.
We're sorry.
The person you called does not accept anonymous calls.
Do you know how the anonymous call rejection feature works?
Sort of, yeah.
Okay.
Isn't it annoying?
Yeah, I agree.
It's the fact that people don't accept anonymous calls because they want to see who's calling them.
That's a personal choice.
Apparently, I don't know what the...
You know, it's bad.
You can't make prank phone calls that way anymore, but you can always call from a pay phone
if you need to call somebody anonymously, although they're taking those away.
Maybe you can get one of those cell phones that they sell.
You know, they sell you a whole cell phone with a couple hours worth of
like a calling card built into it.
And then when the cell phone runs out, you just throw it away.
It's disposable technology.
Is that a prepaid kind of thing?
Yeah, it's like a prepaid cell phone.
Hello, you mentioned about pay phones.
Some of these private pay phones, the mute, the call, the number is blocked.
So therefore, when you call somebody with anonymous call rejection,
you get that message saying they will not accept your call,
but you lose your money in some of these phones.
And there's no way to like unblock it.
You see, that's my point as well.
An interesting point was brought to my attention the other week,
that a lot of the pay phone, sometimes you'll see like a booth for a pay phone
without a pay phone in it around the city.
Often, more often than not nowadays.
Right, the reason it was indicated...
I'm sorry?
Using a regular pay phone is annoying too because...
If you could please let me explain this.
The pay phone company, Verizon, makes a lot more money off the ads
surrounding the pay phone booth than they do with the actual pay phone inside it.
But they're required to put the booth and eventually the phone there.
So they're just using the booth for the advertising revenue
until they bother to put a phone in there?
That's what they're up to.
Wow.
That's what they're doing with the residential stuff
and also with the way that the DSL market has been decimated by Verizon
here in New York City and the surrounding areas.
And they are absolutely threatening
the communications infrastructure of the United States,
which will bring them to the attention of certain federal agencies.
We're out of time for this evening.
Oh yeah, we're out of time.
Tahrir is next and at 10 o'clock...
It's only 8.55!
That's when the show's over.
One hour shows are 55 minutes long.
All shows end at five minutes before the hour.
Tahrir is next.
Tahrir.
Tahrir, sorry.
There you go.
And then we will hear the comic book show at 10 o'clock.
This is WBAI 99.5.
And we thank you for bearing with us.
Thank you for...
And hopefully, Emmanuel will be back next week with an update on his court case.
Thanks, guys, for an interesting program.
Thank you, Paul.
An enjoyable program too.
Thanks a lot.
Thank all the listeners and callers.
This is WBAI in New York.
The Palestinian reality?
What's really happening in the Muslim lands?
A new memoir by Professor Laila Ahmed?
Or Muslim political candidates in the USA?
These and more are questions you can hear discussed on Tahrir,
WBAI's magazine of the Arab Muslim community.
Marhaba.
I'm Barbara Nimri-Aziz and I'd like you to join me
and our Tahrir staff every Tuesday night at nine o'clock.
That's Tuesdays from nine to 10 p.m.
here on listener-sponsored WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
You're sure to find something new and sometimes controversy.
Greetings from the Atlantica radio empire with a friendly warning.
A dangerous new radio empire is taking over other radio empires by surprise.
By surprise?
That doesn't seem fair.
It isn't fair.
Huh?
Unlike normal radio empires that favor peace or war,
this dangerous new radio empire favors Bedlam.
What is the name of this dangerous new radio empire that favors Bedlam?
The name of this dangerous new radio empire that favors Bedlam is Psychotica.
Psychotica?
Yes, the Psychotica radio empire.
That sounds crazy.
It is.
Boing.
Boing.
Boing.
Boing.
Beware of the danger signs that Bedlam-loving Psychotica has invaded your radio empire.
What are the danger signs?
Are you asked to choose between being a Quisling or a Scab?
Is there a difference between a Quisling and a Scab?
A Quisling fails to keep his loyalties up to date.
A Scab can be neutral.
What can we do to protect ourselves from Psychotica?
Atlantica will protect you from Psychotica.
Oh, good.
As long as you are not banned by Atlantica.
Oh, no.
How can I avoid being banned by Atlantica?
To avoid being banned by Atlantica, do not listen to this tone.
Those who disobeyed a direct order by Atlantica not to listen to the tone are now banned.
Oh, no.
Thank you, Atlantica.
Thank you, Atlantica.
Hey!
Those are my commands.
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