Comic books are read by people who read.
Comic books are commented on by people who think.
They're not for stupid people, and they're not for ignorant people, and they're not for non-leaders.
They are for everybody, but, from my experience,
they go directly to people who have things to say,
who will have things to say in the future, and the fact that they're being done the way they are,
and the fact that they're being done by people who really care about what's going on in America,
is, I believe, is going to make a difference,
and it's not a small thing that's happening there, and I'm very happy to see it happen.
That was Neil Adams, speaking on an early episode of Nuff Said.
To hear thought-provoking and entertaining discussion on the subject of comics,
tune in every Tuesday night at 10 p.m. for Nuff Said,
here on WBAI New York, 99.5 FM.
And visit our website, NuffSaid.net, for our upcoming schedule of guests.
See you there.
And that's coming up in just two hours here on WBAI New York,
but now it's time for Off The Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse, but if it could they would.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood. Bum-diddly-bum!
Bum-diddly-bum!
Bum-diddly-bum!
Hey!
Come on!
Bum-diddly-bum!
Bum-diddly-bum!
Hey, hey.
And good evening to everybody, the program is off the hook, Emmanuel Goldstein here with
you on this fine Tuesday evening and we're going to do something a little bit different
this week, something we don't ordinarily do, something I actually can't remember us doing
in a long time.
We're going to start off with some good news.
Good news?
Yes, Isaac.
It still exists?
Good news.
Where did we find good news?
Well, we found good news, it actually sort of came to us and came to us, and here's another
first, through the court system.
That's right.
Through the court system, we actually have good news that we're starting off with.
That's remarkable.
Not only is it good news that we've managed to dig up, but it came from the American judicial
system.
Yeah, it definitely did.
That's bizarre.
Okay.
It is bizarre.
It is bizarre.
I have to pinch myself a few times to make sure it actually happened, but the fact of
the matter is, as you heard on these radio waves starting last summer when our layout
artist Shapeshifter was arrested at the Republican National Convention, held on half a million
dollars bail.
Yeah.
What did they pick him up for again?
Well, that's kind of a hard thing to say.
We have him on the line.
Okay.
We're going to have him answer these hard-hitting questions, but I just want to say, I'm learning
something about the value of us as individuals.
Our case against ... Actually, it was MPAA's case against us, but our defense against the
MPAA cost over a million dollars, and that makes me realize that, yeah, in fact, we are
worth a million bucks.
People have said that many times, but now I know it's true, but the fact of the matter
is-
You've got to stack up paperwork to prove it.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation is the organization that actually shelled out that
kind of money, and we have to help them stand back up again because that was an incredible
outpouring.
It's not over yet, and there's more cases that are coming down the pike, but then Shapeshifter
held on $500,000 bail basically just for ... Well, Shapeshifter, you're there on the phone with
us, aren't you?
Yeah.
Ah, welcome.
First of all, congratulations.
You were acquitted on all counts last week.
Acquitted?
Woo-hoo!
Yeah.
Do you want to tell us something about that?
Well, yeah.
Basically, it was sort of an amazing ... It was sort of surreal, actually.
I shouldn't say amazing.
Oh, you know, those little beeps represent Bernie S., who apparently could not hold onto
his phone connection.
I'm going to put you on hold while I try and salvage that.
Actually, I wound up putting Bernie S. on hold.
Are you still there, Shapeshifter?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
You talk to us while I try to get Bernie back.
All right.
Yeah.
It was sort of surreal, you know, being arrested by over 20 police officers, including the
deputy police commissioner, and getting a $500,000 bail off for misdemeanor charges.
And then the prosecution's case crumbled, basically, even before the jury got to make
a decision.
The judge threw it out.
Oh, jeez.
Not bad.
Yep.
Yep.
I believe the judge's words, in particular, was saying that the prosecution's case was
... Evidence was underwhelming, to say the least.
And the other jury, basically, you know, well, this one juror, when he came out, he shook
my hand and said, sorry, you had to go through this.
So it was ... Basically, the prosecution's case just fell apart.
And it was pretty obvious, because they were lying to begin with, and they had a cop from
D.C. who came up to Philadelphia to do ... He was in the intelligence bureau, and he came
up, I guess, to do intelligence.
Right.
He certainly failed doing that, didn't he?
Yeah.
Intelligence bureau.
Pretty much did.
You know, he wasn't all that together, and he claims that he saw me in a place which
I wasn't in, and said I led a protest, which actually the people ... I was accused of leading
a protest to the people who ... They balked the street for about half an hour, and when
they were asked to leave by the police officers, they got up and left.
So that's what I was held on $500,000 bail for, was accused of leading a group of people
who balked the street for half an hour.
How did they determine you were the leader of the group?
Were you wearing, like, some baseball cap that said, you know, big man or something?
What was that?
Oh, no.
He allegedly ... He supposedly saw me talking on a cell phone, and he said that I was very
intense at this moment, and I got down on one knee, and I pointed in a direction that
all these people would then go and balk the street.
Well, you know, it's interesting you should point this out, because I happened to do some
research at the time of these alleged phone calls, and I realized that I was, in fact,
speaking to you at that time.
And I seem to have somehow gotten involved in this, even though I wasn't trying to.
In fact, you were able to pretty much account for most of the phone calls you were getting.
Your friends, your mother, me, all kinds of people talking to you.
None of which were actually protesting.
I was around.
In fact, you can listen to a radio show where I was down there on that Tuesday, and I was
commenting on how peaceful everything was and how certain things were happening in different
parts of the city, and I was basically calling you to let you know, hey, I'm over here now,
and things seem interesting, and we're trading information, trading stories.
I guess that makes me part of the conspiracy?
Yeah.
Uh-oh.
You should be careful.
Actually, I think that their intelligence was based on watching the TV and newspapers,
because me and two other alleged ringleaders, Kate Sorensen and John Sellers of the Rocket
Society, we all made statements to the press beforehand, and we all were targeted as ringleaders.
And when I was arrested, all the police were calling me by name.
So they were obviously following people.
They already had that much.
Hmm.
Yeah.
But they took you away.
How long has this been going on, this whole court?
Since August.
Since August.
But it's finally gone now.
Yeah.
Very good.
I'm glad to hear it.
Well, for now, anyway.
There's always next time.
All that noise indicates that Bernie S. is now joining us.
Bernie, are you with us?
Walking the streets of Philadelphia.
Oh, okay.
We don't need to know about that.
But basically, can you tell us something about the...
Don't point at anything.
Yeah.
Be careful.
You might be leading a protest.
You were in the courtroom last...
What was it?
Friday?
Actually, I was there just as things were wrapping up.
But there was much excitement in the air.
Tell us something about the scene.
Well, there was much jubilation.
There was the smell of victory in the air.
You might even say it was the scent of justice.
That's a scent we don't get too often around here.
Yeah.
It was quite a contrast from the usual stench of our criminal courts.
Mm-hmm.
Now, Shapeshift, let me ask you.
How did this actually come about?
You were basically there.
A jury had been selected on Thursday.
Did you get to say anything?
No, I didn't get to say anything.
The prosecution presented their evidence, which consisted of one, supposedly eyewitness,
one police officer, whose job it was to videotape.
They showed their videotape.
I wasn't on the videotape.
The only portion of the videotape I was on was after the fact, an hour and a half after
this alleged protest happened.
And then during cross-examination, we showed our video, which shows me at the same time
in another location.
And after that, my lawyer filed a motion for acquittal, which means to throw out the charges.
And the judge, after contemplating it, he just decided to throw it out.
Uh, Bernie?
Hi.
What are you doing?
There's a screaming crowd of tourists.
That didn't sound like happy tourists to me.
That sounded like terrified people.
Actually, it was a police car that was honking at these student tourists.
And I'm not sure whether it was a friendly honk or an unfriendly honk, but I had to run
through this crowd of maybe 30 people who were screaming.
Well, it didn't sound like happy screaming to me.
Okay, well, before things break out into more rioting down there, let's just try and get
through the story of what happened in court.
So basically, were you surprised when the judge actually, I mean, I was shocked to find
out that he actually granted the motion, but did it surprise you that he did that?
Yeah, he surprised me.
I didn't, um, actually, I didn't want my lawyer to file that motion because, um, I didn't,
I wasn't, I was prepared to prove my innocence and also prepared a closing statement that
I felt that, you know, I, the jury had every right to, to, you know, hear some more explanation
of why they are there for this, you know, for this case.
Well, why don't you give us the explanation then, as much of it as you can, since you
didn't get to do it in court.
Well, it's pretty long, so I don't want to take up too much time.
You can summarize, summarize it.
But basically, I was, you know, I was arrested by over 20 police officers and, you know,
you're put on, given a $500,000 bail basically for what I believe to be, you know, the, even
the prosecutor said himself, this isn't the crime of the century.
So why was I given a $500,000 bail?
I think it was for actually what we are protesting, which is the Republican National Convention
and more specifically, the criminal injustice system.
You know, it might, it might be useful to point out that a half a million dollars bail
is quite a lot higher than many people are held on murder charges.
That's right.
That's right.
And Bernie, you were held on no bail.
So yeah.
And then I was, I was, then I was transferred to another facility.
My bail was, was lowered, I guess, from, from an infinite level to $250,000.
But they said cash, the judge said cash bail, which in Pennsylvania means you're not allowed
to put up to 10%, which fortunately Terrence was able to, and some friends were able to
help him out.
So my bail was the equivalent of two and a half million dollars bail.
You raise an interesting point.
Now, yeah.
As, as, as we all know, some of us were able to raise the, at that point since, since his
bail was lowered from $500,000 to, what was it lowered to?
$100,000.
$100,000.
So that meant that if we came up with 10 grand, we could get him out and that's what wound
up happening the week after.
Now there is some discussion that I, I just was privy to a little while ago where not
only is it, is it, are they delaying getting that money back, but there might even be a
possibility that they're going to keep some of it.
Is that, is that actually true?
Not a possibility.
It's a, it's a, it's a policy that's more or less set in stone with the Philadelphia
bail agency.
It's a, it's the part of the city of Philadelphia that accepts bail payments.
And in Pennsylvania, there are no, at least in this, in this part of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia
County, it has its own government bail agency, which means if it, if it, if the judge doesn't
say cash bail, it means you can put up collateral like a house or something, or alternatively
10% of the bail amount.
In Perrantz's case, it was lowered after he was, he spent about a week in horrendous conditions
in prison.
It was lowered from a half million dollars to $100,000.
So 10% of that, uh, with some friends were able to raise for him, $10,000 was enough
to spring him.
But the Philadelphia bail agency had the policy that they will keep 30% of that or $2,500,
whichever is reached first as sort of a, uh, uh, just sort of to pay for their trouble
time.
Wait, wait, wait, hold on everybody, everybody, everywhere.
Stop now.
Hold on a second.
He was found innocent.
He was found innocent.
How can they keep money that, that was, that was taken from people to, to bail him out
when he was found innocent?
Because they can, but, uh, we'll be in touch with a Perrantz's lawyer, have him, have him
file a motion to, uh, request that the judge, uh, issue an order that this full $10,000
be released.
It just seems almost counterproductive, uh, for the, for, for the city to be able to keep
$2,500 for, for what the judge himself admitted was an injustice.
It's pure robbery.
They're, they're, they're stealing money from people.
If the, if the city gets to keep, if the city profits thousands of dollars for, for perpetrating
an injustice, then what, what incentive is there from, for them to stop doing this?
It's clear financial incentive for them to lock people in jail with no cause, which clearly
happened here.
The judge himself said he didn't feel that they were criminal.
There was even criminal contact going on.
Imagine, God forbid, we had come up with a $100,000 to start with, you know, then, then,
or, or 500, whatever, whatever percentage it would have been to, uh, you know, to get
them out the first time they would, they would have kept that much more because that's a
great system where the, where the judge even says that this apologizes for the city, uh,
you know, keeping Terrence in jail, Terrence would have been in jail for months if this
bail money had not been raised and the city still gets to keep thousands of dollars of
this money that his friends raised just because it's their policy, even though the courts
even ruled that the charges were, were completely groundless.
But you know, Bernie, even if he was guilty, you're still supposed to get the bail money
back as long as you don't skip town.
I mean, that's always been my understanding of bail.
It would, it would, it would, that would seem to be the fair thing to do.
But the Philadelphia bail agency has a written policy of, uh, of keeping, uh, 30% or $2,500.
I mean, by that logic, it's okay for you to like escape 30% of the time because that's
just the way it goes.
Well, as we're starting to learn, uh, logic and common sense and, and fairness aren't
even part of the equation when it comes to the criminal justice system.
They're not even, we try to apply them because they don't, and they should, but they don't.
Has anyone challenged this?
Well, that's what we're doing right now.
Yeah, we're, we're, we're in the process of challenging because I'm in the process of
learning about this and I just, I find it unbelievable that that's actually how the
system works.
And it's not, it's not so much about the money, it's, it's, it's, it's trying, you need to
create a disincentive for the city for doing this again to someone else.
If they can lock somebody up without cause, which clearly happened here, according to
a judge, uh, and the city profits thousands of dollars from doing this, then it's not
going to stop.
Well, I think, I think Shapeshifter has a, has a great chance here for a civil suit against
the city.
I don't know if, if, if he wants to, uh, talk about that at all, if that's even been broached
as a possibility, but it sure seems to me, uh, you know, a week in jail with hardened
criminals and, you know, very bad conditions.
And it certainly would have been, it would have been months in jail had this money not
been raised by people.
I'm just fortunate that it happened, but, uh, there are a lot of people who are not
in a position where they have a, uh, a good support network around them and they languish
in jail for months.
And, and in some cases, uh, the charges are just missed.
So yeah, it just, you know, no justice going on here really.
Okay.
We're going to have to move on.
But any, any final comments from you guys or, um, actually, you know, um, I just want
to bring up the fact that, you know, this isn't just like, this doesn't just happen
at and during protests, this sort of thing, and this overcharging and you know, the prosecution
of people happens every day and, uh, mostly in the neighborhoods and the communities of
color inside Philadelphia, they face this every day.
You know, there's people, you know, I had a hundred thousand dollar bail and I was able
to get out, but there's people who have $200 bails who aren't able to get out.
So it's sort of like, you have to take into account that, you know, not everybody has
the resources to do this and it affects somebody just as much when they have a $200 bail and
they can't pay it.
And it's, um, I also just like to say that, you know, the, the circumstances that brought
people to protest the Republican convention, they still exist.
And, um, this is certainly isn't the last time that people are going to see protests
like this or people resisting.
Good.
Okay.
Well, thanks very much for, uh, you know, for, for, for doing what you do, for standing
up for what you believe in.
I think that's, that's something that, uh, everybody should appreciate.
And um, we'll be continuing to follow the aftermath of this case for however long it
takes.
And, um, of course, all the other incidents that lie ahead of us as people exercise their
rights to express themselves in various forums.
Um, anything coming up that you want to share with us shape shifter as far as, uh, actions
in the future?
Um, I believe that, um, some people are, um, they're American corrections, the correctional
association will be meeting in Philadelphia and I believe that, um, people are going to
have an alternative conference too.
That sounds like, who are those people?
Most of the prisons, the prison industry, it's going to be entire, pretty much the entire
prison industry.
Everybody who makes a buck off of, of, uh, incarcerating people is from people who make
fences for people who would get contracts to make food.
Um, people who run private prisons, they're all going to be, Oh, I want, I want a piece
of these people.
When is this going to be?
It's going to be in August from the 11th to the 15th.
And, um, I believe there'll be, there are some protests and we'll hear more as things,
um, ship shape up, but there's definitely going to be, um, I definitely think there's
going to be a presence to a challenge.
Okay.
Well, if you don't wind up going to how in the Netherlands this August, uh, and you stay
in the States, this is the place to be.
I think, uh, at the American correctional association, is it?
Yes.
Okay.
That's a, and that's going to be in Philadelphia.
Yeah.
All right.
Okay.
Thank you for, uh, for joining us and, uh, for, for your courage and we'll continue to
keep people appraised of the situation and, uh, we look forward to the next issue of 2600
where your work will be displayed.
All right.
And, um, Bernie, are you sticking with us?
Oh yeah.
I'll stick with you.
I did want to raise something, uh, relevant to this, uh, this, this, uh, sort of injustice
going on with the, uh, Republican national convention protesters, uh, that's not being
lost on the public, uh, at least, uh, here in Philadelphia, the, uh, there's an independent
newspaper that are semi-independent.
It's a weekly free weekly called the Philadelphia city paper.
Uh, there was a, a great political cartoon in, in, uh, this week's issue that, uh, pictured
Lynn Abraham, the Philadelphia district attorney, uh, saying, uh, and I'm paraphrasing, cause
I don't have the cartoon in front of me.
It was a half page cartoon with her ranting about, uh, these protesters who were making
a lot of noise and saying things that were, uh, something had to be done about these protesters.
And, uh, then in the next frame, she's saying, well, we'll, we'll just lock them all up on,
uh, on a million dollars bail or close to it, as in Terrence's case, it's a half million
dollars bail.
And then, uh, then she says, uh, uh, but on May 16th, uh, almost a year later, we'll
just, we'll just, uh, we'll dismiss the charges or we'll drop the charges.
So, uh, then she said in the last frame, well, uh, see, I did something about it.
Well, this is not a, this was in the Philadelphia city paper.
You can do a, you can do a web search, uh, uh, for Philadelphia city paper and, uh, see
this cartoon.
So this is not a, it's not something that the news about this is getting out to the
public.
This is not a, uh, uh, something that's, uh, just being covered on, uh, on off the hook
and, uh, in, in, in niche, uh, media, uh, out, this is a, this is hitting mainstream
media, which is a very good thing and surprising thing.
Usually this sort of stuff gets swept under the rug, but, uh, a lot of people are learning
about this and it's, I've heard about this on, uh, Philadelphia news, uh, radio, uh,
on, uh, and, uh, other newspapers here in Philadelphia, there's, there's a lot of controversy
about how, uh, how this was handled, how these protest cases were handled.
And uh, there's, there's, there's going to be some accounting, I'm, I'm sure there's
some definite civil actions, which are I think warranted.
And uh, I wish anyone who, cause it's not civil, was it?
I'm sorry.
You're having the sprint effect on your, on your voice there, Bernie, but hopefully we
won't lose you totally.
Uh, again, uh, Shapeshifter, you have to go, right?
Yes.
Okay.
So thanks again for joining us and hopefully we'll be able to restore, uh, uh, Bernie to,
uh, to his, uh, rightful place in the phone world.
Let's, uh, get rid of this line and bring Bernie back.
Bernie, are you there?
No, I guess Bernie is not there.
Okay.
Well, we're going to try and get Bernie back.
Uh, he shouldn't wander around like that.
Well, you know, what happens when you're on the phone, maybe the crowd got him.
Yeah.
Um, okay.
Uh, we have, um, all kinds of other things going on.
Uh, there's no news yet on the, um, on the hearing last week.
The, uh, appeal took place last Tuesday for the DECSS case.
Uh, we expect something to be happening, uh, well, it could happen anytime, but probably
sometime, uh, towards the end of this month or maybe the next couple of months.
We don't really know.
It's, it's, it's up to them when they decide to, uh, uh, to, uh, come down with, uh, with
an answer.
Uh, the audio of the case is up on our website, www.2600.com, uh, go on the front page and
you'll, uh, you'll see, um, basically an audio file of, uh, of what happened during the,
uh, during the court, during the court, uh, session.
And I, I, I suggest everybody listen to this because, uh, I think we presented a really
good case.
I really do.
And, um, I think Dean Sullivan did an amazing job, uh, as far as just, um, presenting our
arguments in a very, uh, forceful way and standing up to a lot of hard questioning by
the, uh, by the judges.
And it's also very important to listen to the other side as well and hear just how they're
coming at this.
Uh, if, if hearing the, uh, the case is not incentive enough for you, there are some great
comic gems in the other sites.
Well, what are, what are some that, uh, that you remember?
Uh, I just like the, the metaphor that the guy gave of ripping open DVDs.
Yeah, I did say that, didn't I?
Wasn't there something about a crowbar?
The whole thing has been compared to a digital crowbar.
It's a digital crowbar.
And the whole comparison to, uh, about the air traffic control systems and DCSS, uh,
that, that, that.
Well, that's, that's how they started.
They said if this was about air traffic control, nobody would be arguing whether or not this
is a First Amendment issue.
That's right.
But he doesn't know that DCSS only does nuclear missile launches, not air traffic control.
That's right.
That's right.
That's a patch you need.
We're trying to, uh, get Bernie back here.
One of the judges said, uh, sir, but this isn't about air traffic control.
Yeah, actually, the judge did, did point out that there's no fair use with air traffic
control systems.
Very good.
Okay.
And, uh, that's comforting.
It was a positive sign to start off the case.
Mm-hmm.
Um, okay, we have some, some news items, and then we have the, the new lawsuit to deal
with.
Uh.
Hi.
Sorry I can't take your call now.
Well.
But if you leave your name, number, and a message.
Why don't we just do the whole show onto his voicemail?
Would you like to?
Yeah.
As soon as I can.
Yeah.
That's what I like to watch.
Well, who's.
To leave a voice message.
Who's name are you going to use?
You know what?
You can, you can now send voicemail on Sprint without ringing somebody's phone.
Yeah.
If you have a Sprint account.
That just started.
Right.
All right.
Um.
I wonder how many people stay in jail without paying their bail, because they'll save up
to $2,500.
Hang on.
That's the beep.
Yeah.
No kidding.
That's the beep.
Hey, this is off the hook.
Uh, we, we tried calling you back, but, uh, we're going to have to go on with the show
now.
Yeah.
But, uh, how long do you think we can know you can talk for before I don't know.
I've had a voicemail that lasted over half an hour and it was, it was some guy who sat
on his phone in a conference room and I got to hear the whole meeting and my voicemail
was somewhat amusing.
Well, you know, a lot of these phones call people on their own.
In fact, I often get voicemail from people at all different phone numbers and you just
hear them, you hear the phone moving around in their pocket and it lasts for about five
minutes and it's really, uh, sometimes you hear some interesting things you're not supposed
to hear.
Put it that way.
Uh, okay.
We have some news here.
Uh, let's, uh, let's get into that right away.
Uh, there's a new, uh, bill being prepared in Nassau County.
Uh, you know about the, the, the lovely bill in Suffolk County that prevents you from talking
on the cell phone as you drive unless you buy a, an expensive car kit thing, which I
think is more of a hazard than, uh, than holding something up to your ear.
I mean, I know people who cannot eat a sandwich and drive in a car, right?
And I know people who can have full, you know, seven course dinners in cars and drive without
a problem.
Are they going to say that you can't, uh, you know, eat a sandwich in the car at the
same time because some people can't handle it?
Are they going to say you can't yell at your three year old back in the, you know, in the
backseat because that might distract you as well?
I mean, how many kinds of regulations are we going to have here?
Have you seen those people on the LIE in the morning who are actually reading the paper?
They've got it like stretched out over top of the steering wheel and they're just reading
the paper doing like 30 miles an hour.
It's frightening.
I mean, absolutely frightening.
I only do that if I'm standing still on the expressway and that happens quite a bit.
There's no law against that.
Well, I mean, there shouldn't be a law against any of these stupid things.
It's common sense.
You know, if you drive recklessly, all right, if you drive recklessly, then that's, you
know, okay, that's an offense.
But there's so many ways to drive recklessly.
Are we going to make a law for every possible way to drive recklessly?
You know, it just, it's, it's, it's like being in kindergarten, but that gives so many people
so much things to do because it's, you know, you make new laws, make new prison cells,
creates money.
I think we should mention that because Westchester now, Westchester also has a law against this.
And I think I'm looking for the actual part here, but I believe it's Westchester where
you can actually wind up in prison.
Yeah.
You can wind up in prison for 10 days.
Can you keep the phone?
That I don't know.
Is your first call on your own phone or do they make you use a pay phone?
Here we go.
Here we go.
Representatives of the wireless industry, as well as safety advocates have backed a
uniform statewide law arguing that varying codes create a maze for drivers in Rockland
County.
I'm sorry.
Rockland County, for example, County Executive C.
Scott Vanderhoff vetoed a bill.
The legislature passed because it included a punishment of 10 days in jail and the half
said it was too harsh, but they can lock you up for misdemeanors now anyway, says the Supreme
Court.
So yeah, but this, this kind of like mandates that they lock you up for, for this.
Right.
Specific thing.
And it's, uh, you know, what are we talking about here?
I mean, yeah, you know, you, you, you drive recklessly, you cause accidents.
That's, you know, that's something that's bad, but to say that this, uh, you know, leads
to it anyway, they're going to, um, they actually did vote on this, uh, yesterday in Nassau
County.
Um, and, um, in Nassau, it's different because you can't even dial a phone.
I'm not sure how that works in Suffolk.
You can dial a phone, but you can't speak on it.
Well, I guess, I guess you can dial the phone and use that special little thing that voice.
Yeah.
Maybe that explains all those calls you get.
Yeah, maybe so.
The dialing seems to me to be the most dangerous part if you're looking at the phone trying
to dial.
What about reading your email or sending email?
They don't say anything about that.
And I can do both of them on, on both of my phones.
Wait a second.
Why do you have to look at your phone to dial?
You don't know where the one is?
It's not that hard.
Well, actually, one of my phones dials- Don't you just yell into your phone?
They dial double digits every now and then.
So you have to, you have to check.
That's not good.
Yeah.
So, uh.
Oh.
What happened?
I think that was it.
That was a beep?
Yeah.
Maybe it's a warning beep, meaning you only have 10 seconds left.
Nah, I think that was it.
Possibly.
I don't know.
Either that or we stopped talking for too long.
I think the Sprint lady would come on and say something.
You have reached the maximum time permitted to record.
If you are satisfied with your message, press 1.
Are we satisfied?
To listen to your message, press 2.
I don't know.
I think we should listen to it.
To re-record, press 3.
I think we should re-record.
To enter a callback number, press 4.
Alright.
To cancel, press star.
I'm, I'm pretty satisfied.
To send your message now, press 1.
To mark urgent, press 2.
To mark private, press 3.
What if we want to mark it urgent and private?
Can we encrypt it with CSS?
Message marked urgent.
To send your message now, press 1.
Send it in 7 weeks.
Message marked urgent and private.
Ah, okay.
There we go.
To send your message now, press 1.
Message sent.
Alright.
Thank you.
Thank you for Bernie.
Okay.
Now, we have, uh, I just lost my headphones totally.
Okay.
They're back.
Um, we have a lot of feedback from, um, the, the high-pitched squealing kind or the, no,
not that kind of feedback.
A lot of feedback from the trial.
Oh, okay.
Here's, here's one letter from somebody which I thought was pretty good.
Uh, here's a question for you.
If a computer program isn't artistic speech, then what are video games?
Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, etc. are all very expressive pieces of software.
There's nothing more to them that little ones and zeros, uh, just like the DACSS code
has.
Taking that analogy a bit further, are movies like Toy Story or Final Fantasy artistic speech?
They were completely created in a computer.
Does that make it any less artistic or expressive?
Programmers like many professionals see beauty in good jobs of their work.
An architect will see beauty in a well-designed skyscraper, a carpenter in a well-built home,
or a car enthusiast in a 1967 Shelby Cobra GT500 perfectly restored.
A programmer also will see beauty in a fast, succinct, and flawless piece of code.
The judges in the appeal seem to have a better grasp on the fundamentals of this case than
the last judge, but the lawyers are still just as confused and mindless.
I don't know if my statements will be of any help to you at all, but I just wanted to do
what little part I could.
Signed, Jason.
And Jason, thanks very much for that, uh, bit of info there, because yeah, it is, uh,
it is a form of art, I think, for a lot of people.
Well, it has some interesting implications.
I mean, uh, you, you, in the case of Toy Story, the movie he gave, I mean, which part
is actually the part that's beautiful?
The code that made the images, like using, you know, Pavre or whatever it was, uh, or
the actual resultant image of the work?
It's the difference between trying to copyright an artist's brush or his painting.
Um, on the other hand, yes, you can look at a piece of source code and say, wow, this
is really beautiful.
Um, but in and of itself, that, that much is expression, and well, I, I gave a very
lengthy, uh, uh, reply to that particular piece of mail.
I wish I had it on me so I could read it, but unfortunately I don't.
It's not on your head anymore, is it?
Not in my head anymore.
Okay, on another subject, uh, there's another radio station in town that, uh, is in danger.
Well, all radio stations pretty much everywhere are in danger these days.
Unless they've already been taken over, which is, uh, many of them.
Many of them have been.
They're owned by, you know, Disney or, or, uh, or, uh, what's the other one?
Clear Channel.
Clear Channel, which owns over a thousand radio stations.
Just keep grabbing them up.
But here in New York City, we still have a few independent voices.
There is an independent voice that is, uh, is possibly at very great risk.
And no, I'm not talking about WBAI, I'm talking about WEVD, a station that's been around forever.
Uh, they used to be FM, in fact, uh, used to be, I think, 97.9.
And, um, I remember they used to be the station that speaks your language.
They, they played all kinds of different programs from all different languages.
Anyway, uh, there is, uh, a, a rumor afoot that the station is about to be sold to Disney.
In fact, let me, uh, read you a piece of, uh, a press release which came out yesterday.
Listeners to radio station WEVD AM 1050 in New York City.
They moved to 1050 in the great radio swap of the late 80s.
And that used to be a, a country station, then a sports station, then EVD wound up there.
Anyway, they have been lobbying the owners of the station, known as the Forward Association,
not to sell the standalone news talk radio station to Disney slash ABC slash ESPN.
Slash CIA.
Uh, the rumored sale price is considered to be in the neighborhood of 80 to 85 million dollars,
with the, uh, new owners using the frequency to be the flagship station of the growing ESPN sports radio network.
There's enough sports on radio.
I mean, do you guys really think that sports is being covered enough?
Oh, no.
No, we need more sports.
I need sports 24 hours a day.
We need sports here on WBAI.
You know, there's no sports shows on this station.
What's wrong with that?
All right.
Well, we'll talk later.
Anyway, um, the, um, the efforts by the listeners group known as Save WEVD,
and they can be, uh, seen at www.savewevd.com.
Uh, and the creation of the website, um, uh, the, the members of Save WEVD concentrated their efforts
on generating letters, emails, and phone calls to the Forward Association,
detailing what the station meant to them as an independent alternative voice in New York City,
countering the, um, uh, the dominance of right-wing and hate radio on the dial.
Wait a second.
Right-wing and hate radio are, are lumped into the same group there?
What, what, what is that?
Well, I saw an and between them, but, um, you know.
Yeah, that's the conjunctive article there.
If you think you're being attacked by having right-wing associated with hate radio,
that might be something that you might want to deal with with somebody else,
but, uh, are you denying there's hate radio on the, on the radio?
Are you denying there's right-wing radio on the radio?
I'm saying they're not one in the same.
That's why the and is there.
Oh, okay.
I'll be happy to teach you some English later.
But anyway, it was, uh, felt by the members of Save WEVD that the owners of WEVD were honorable people
who were committed to progressive social and political issues.
The tenor of the effort by Save WEVD was respected, uh, respectful and civil.
As time passed, it became increasingly clear that the strategy of the Forward Association
was to ignore the efforts of Save WEVD and not respond.
A formal request was made by representatives of Save WEVD to meet with Samuel Norridge,
president of the Forward Association.
This request was also ignored.
A number of rumors have surfaced in the press that the sale has already been made.
There is speculation that the announcement of the sale has been delayed for tax purposes.
Uh, Save WEVD has decided to intensify its efforts by forming two new committee, uh, two new committees.
The first committee is a legal committee to explore options for taking legal action to stop the rumored sale of, uh, WEVD.
And the second committee is a research committee to find out the true history of how the Forward Association
gained control of the license to WEVD and how its business affairs have been conducted in recent years.
Again, there's a lot more information about this and it's fascinating always to watch, uh, people trying to save radio,
uh, because it is very much, uh, broadcasting in general is very much in, uh, in danger these days.
The site is www.savewevd.com.
And, uh, if you're interested in becoming part of that or learning more, there's also a phone number,
212-726-1385 and we'll keep an eye on that situation.
I've been following radio in this town for, for ages and it's sad to see what's happened.
There have been so many, uh, independent voices that have been silenced over the years
and just taken over by, you know, brainless corporations operating out of Texas or something.
Is the Forward Association the same people that publish, uh, the Jewish newspaper? Do you know?
Uh, could very well be. Could very well be.
So, I'm not sure myself, but if somebody knows that, maybe they can call us and tell us.
Okay, now, on to our particular problems.
Um, well, we have, uh, a couple of, uh, a couple of issues here.
Uh, the, um, we, we, we mentioned the, uh, the lawsuit that was, uh, brought against us, uh,
in federal court in Detroit by the Ford Corporation.
I mentioned that last week.
Those of you who can't see on the radio, Emmanuel's holding a very thick stack of papers right now.
You can hear how heavy it is.
All right? That's, that's a heavy document there.
And you know what? These people still haven't served me with it, all right?
I sent them a, a letter. I'm, I'm, I've been bending over backwards for these people.
I sent them a letter saying, you know what? I'm waiving my right to be served just so we can get on with this thing already.
So, here you go. No thank you, nothing. Not a phone call, nothing.
I sent them this, so I guess they're leaving this, you know, in a, in a location they left it is, is enough, you know, that they have to do now.
Even though they left it there before I sent them the letter.
You know what? I don't care.
I've got the thing in my hand now.
I know what you're trying to say, what you're trying to do.
So, let's just, you know, deal with it.
I, I've also tried to get them to understand that there's a technical solution to this.
First of all, they, they never sent us a cease and desist letter to tell us to stop pointing the site that they don't like at them.
And a little background here.
The site has nothing to do with Ford.
The site has to do with General Motors, except it's got a four-letter word in front of the, in front of the word General Motors.
That begins with F, just like Ford does.
Finish.
Yeah, you know, Ford is a four-letter word beginning with F.
But never mind that.
Fire.
The point is, the point is that...
Frog.
Freak.
All right.
People are suspended for a minute.
The point is that, that they didn't like the fact that this site that had a word that they didn't like with their competitor's name after it pointed to them.
And they felt that somehow they had the right to demand that it not point to them.
Now, anyone who has used the internet for the past however many years knows that that's not how the net works.
You can point to whatever you want.
You can say, you know, all different kinds of words.
And it's just the way the net works.
You can't say, oh, you're not allowed to point to me.
I mean, if we, if we went out and found all the people who are pointed to 2600.com, demanded they not point to us.
Can you imagine what kind of legal nonsense we'd be engaged in for years, centuries probably?
It would be absolutely insane.
That's not how things work.
Ford wants to redefine the way the net works and say that, no, you're not allowed to do this.
You can't point this site at us because we say so.
Not that we ever told you that.
We're just going to take you to court.
Now, these guys are asking for a phenomenal amount of money.
They're asking for all their legal fees, which you can only imagine what that's going to wind up.
They're asking for triple damages, whatever that means.
And they say that the damages are incalculable.
It says on another page they're asking for no money, though.
Yeah, I saw that, too.
So I don't know what it is that they're trying to do.
They're covering all their options.
They certainly are.
Here's the thing.
There's a hearing.
We managed to get it rescheduled because it was originally scheduled for a couple of days after we initially found out about this.
The hearing is scheduled for a week from this coming Friday in Detroit.
Now, what we're thinking of doing, and I'd like to know if people are interested in this,
is having a little caravan that goes from New York past the New York State Thruway,
passing Poughkeepsie, Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, Toronto, Windsor, and then Detroit.
We just have a line of vehicles just going there to stand up in federal court
and explain how the Internet works to these people
and hopefully put an end to this nonsense once and for all.
What do you think?
I think there are much faster ways to get there than the Thruway.
Well, how would you go?
I'm not taking the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
I never liked that road.
Well, we can talk about that later.
All right.
Well, the point is to get listeners involved and to get readers involved.
Not using Fords or General Motors cars.
No, you know the van is a Dodge.
Is that owned by Ford now?
I think that's GM.
Is it GM?
Okay, fine then.
But it's something that I think we need to do,
and we're open to all kinds of suggestions as to how to go about doing this
and if people have any ideas for ways of defending us.
I know a lot of people might not agree with the actual sentiment involved,
but the reason this site was taken in the first place
was because we knew there was a fight for freedom of speech coming down the road,
and indecent speech is always the first speech that's attacked.
So if we allow that, who knows what they will say next can't be pointed to them.
Now, we've tried.
We've tried very hard, and I'm going to pass the lawsuit around
if people want to find little snippets or tidbits that might be of particular interest.
It's hard to read that kind of talk.
We have tried very hard to reach some kind of an understanding here.
As I said, there was no notice by Ford to us,
even though such a notice probably would not have met well with us
if it was phrased in an accusatory tone.
If somebody is nice about it, of course we can take into account,
okay, this is making you uncomfortable, we'll point it someplace else.
It's a decent thing to do.
But when someone comes at you and says, we demand this,
you kind of want to make a site and put their name in it with a four-letter word.
That's just the way human nature is.
So they didn't do that.
They didn't even try and tell us that they were upset by this.
They just filed their papers in federal court.
We can change this with a snap of our fingers.
We can point it anyplace else.
But after they do this, how can we possibly just say that?
Well, it doesn't stop the lawsuit because they're still suing us.
So obviously the site has remained as it is.
But here's the other interesting point.
The interesting point is that they can stop it themselves.
That's right.
You can make a website not point to you.
There's ways of doing that that are very simple,
and we've told them this as well.
In fact, we're willing to give them the specific words
that they have to input in order to make this happen.
I don't know if that's going to make any difference either,
but we've bent over backwards to help them.
Now, the thing is we can only bend over so much
before we have to start fighting back.
And that's why it's with a heavy heart that I have to tell you
that effective as of 521 p.m. this afternoon,
2600 Enterprises, headquartered in Middle Island, New York,
officially, officially registered FordReallySucks.com.
Hmm.
It's not something I wanted to do, but we had to do it.
And there'll be more information on that website
about these things that are happening,
as well as maybe some other issues involving Ford
that never would have come to light were it not for this.
I wonder if many people out there who are currently looking for cars
would be kind enough to forward to us
any decisions they might make as a result of this.
I mean, we're going to have to spend a significant amount of money.
The EFF, we cannot expect them to be here
for every single one of our battles.
We're going to have to do this one on our own,
and it could wind up costing a lot of money,
and we might have to spend the majority of our resources
defending a four-letter word,
defending our right to point something somewhere.
It has to be done.
Well, is it going to be worth it?
Yeah, I think it has to be worth it.
I mean, where do you draw the line?
Do you say, well, because this is an indecent word,
we're not going to support it?
Well, let's think about this for a second.
I mean, you're not exactly hosting a site
that is talking about factory recalls
and things from General Motors or from Ford.
Do you think that would make a difference?
It's basically just kind of childish name-calling.
I mean, I'm not sure I would invest that much time or money
into defending childish name-calling.
Well, let me tell you right now,
I would happily, happily point it to a site that did that.
And, in fact, we asked.
We asked many times,
is there someone who wants to host a site?
And, you know, we got people who said, yeah,
but they never really showed us anything.
So we have the site.
We can point it any place we want.
That's where it stands.
We haven't been doing anything with it.
It's just pointing to, you know, a random site.
Well, that's something I'd like to see.
Okay.
Well, the invitation is out there.
But you understand now that if a site were to exist tomorrow,
we can't back down on this because they're telling us
you do not have the right to point to us.
Which is absurd.
It's totally absurd.
And until it's proven in a court of law
or until they back down and say, yes, you can point to us,
we don't like it, but you can do it,
it's, you know, it's your right.
You know, at that point, yeah,
we can point to any place else we want and we will.
And, you know, such a site exists.
I'd happily point to something that,
because I don't think much is served by having,
and we have other corporations too,
many of them that point to all kinds of different places.
You know, the whole fiasco with NBC and CBS and other ones.
So, yeah, ideally,
it would be nice to have these sites do something significant.
And that's what I hope winds up happening.
But right now it's a different issue.
It's, you know, they're coming after us telling us
we are not allowed to do this.
And that's something that really offends me.
All right, let's, we're running out of time.
So let's take some phone calls.
212-209-2900 is our phone number.
Oh, also, I wanted to mention this to people too.
Concerning the last couple of marathons,
I know a couple of people,
I was at the Trenton Computer Show,
gave the keynote address.
You did, how did that go?
It was fun.
I couldn't believe I spoke for an entire hour, but I did.
You do that every week, come on.
Yeah, I guess so.
I'm going to do it this week too if I'm not careful.
But it was great seeing people there.
Very, very nice group of people down in Trenton,
or actually in Edison.
But it was a lot of fun.
So the Trenton Computer Fair is not in Trenton.
Yeah, but that's another discussion.
The point is,
a lot of people were asking about the fundraisers.
A lot of people were interested in BAI, of course.
There are two fundraisers
that we're still trying to catch up to,
and unfortunately,
there go my headphones again.
Okay, totally cannot hear myself right now.
You can hear me though, right?
Yeah, I can.
Okay.
Oh, I'm back.
This is really weird what's going on here.
So basically,
if you pledge for the Fall Drive,
which was the one back in September or October,
we don't know who you are
because we have to send the Jell-O-Be-Offer CDs,
and unfortunately,
we can't get the list of names that we usually got.
So what I'm asking people to do,
if you've already gotten something from us,
like we had several premiums for that particular marathon,
if you've already gotten something from us,
you will be getting,
additionally,
the Jell-O-Be-Offer CD.
However, if you didn't get anything for us
and you pledged the minimum amount
for the Jell-O-Be-Offer CD,
which was $25,
just send us proof that you paid your pledge,
and you can send that to us here at the radio station,
WBAI, 120 Wall Street,
New York, New York, 10005.
We're going to hold that open for the next two weeks,
so if you, in fact,
pledged in the Fall Marathon,
just send us mail here saying that
and showing proof that you paid,
and then that will tell us
how many of the CDs we have to get,
and then we'll just send them out to everybody.
Now, the marathon that took place after that,
the Winter Marathon,
we have a bunch of videotapes
that we're going to be sending out as well.
Unfortunately, since we can't get the names,
we have to bring them all here,
and I think there was something like
15 videotapes per person,
so we're literally going to have to rent a truck
to bring all those in here.
That's the next challenge.
We're going to take care of this one first,
then we're going to take care of the second one,
and hopefully everything will be caught up
within a couple of weeks.
So apologies for the mayhem there,
but that's sometimes the way things go.
Let's take some phone calls.
212-209-2900.
Where should we go first?
Let's go over...
This phone system is still kind of screwy, you know?
It's getting worse every week.
It seems to be.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Yeah, look at that.
A lot of lines taped up,
but they're the ones that are ringing.
All right, if you can't get through,
my apologies for that.
Let's try this one over here.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Yeah, good. Good choice.
I want to entertain a Napster question,
even though it's growing rapidly useless.
Yeah, it is kind of useless, but go ahead.
All right, this is a question.
If one finds something that's interesting
and there's a username attached,
and then one, me being the one,
wants to see what this user has in their entire offering
rather than just the particular artist
who has entered for a search,
is there a way to get to that information?
You're asking for Napster support here?
The answer is yes,
and I'm not sure exactly where it is in your client.
But if you have the real Napster,
the official Napster client,
it's one of the options that you can click on.
Just keep clicking on stuff.
Yeah, that's all we can tell you.
But I don't know,
doesn't Napster have a hotline
where they give information on this kind of thing?
I've never even used the program.
Don't look at me.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Speak up, please.
Hi there.
How you doing?
James, I'm calling from Louisville, Kentucky.
All right, Louisville, Kentucky.
Yeehaw.
There's a couple things I want to talk about.
First off, I'm planning on starting
a low-power FM station down here in Louisville.
I'm kind of using you guys as an inspiration for that.
Do you have any suggestions as far as resources and so forth?
Because all the companies that sell FM gear
are geared to the larger radio stations.
And I just thought maybe you'd have some insights into that.
How large a station are we talking about?
Well, the low-power FM license that I can get from the FCC
will be for 50 watts.
And you can actually get one of these licenses?
Yes, the window will open up in June,
like June 12th to 15th or something like that.
I'll be able to apply for the license.
I know there are vendors out there.
There are people who sell low-power equipment.
I'm sorry, what were you looking for?
He's looking for low-power FM equipment.
You might want to contact the Prometheus Radio Project.
Yeah, that's a good group.
There's a bunch of little projects out there going around.
If you can go to your local Hamfest,
and they're going to crop up like you wouldn't believe in the summer.
Go to the Dayton Hamvention, which is taking place in a couple of weeks.
That's fairly near Kentucky.
Check out eBay for all of the ex-NSA transmitters and tuners
that they're selling.
That sounds good.
Okay, we're going to move on.
It's weird. I only see two calls here.
We have some news on your Ford case.
Isaac looked online, and you're being sued
under the Establishment of Department and Seal section of the law.
What the hell does that mean?
The trademark office has a seal.
That's the section you're being sued under.
I didn't touch their seal. What are they talking about?
They cite here cause of action 15 U.S.C. section 1501,
the Lanham Act, a.k.a. the Anti-Cybersquatting Consumer Protection Act.
This isn't cybersquatting. It's not even their name.
However, I look at 15 U.S.C. 1501.
I'm looking at it, and it's like 1501.
That's very strange.
The title of that is Establishment of Department, Secretary and Seal.
There shall be at the seat of government
an executive department to be known as the Department of Commerce
and a secretary of commerce who shall be the head thereof.
Can we get to the heart of the matter here?
That's it. It basically establishes the Department of Commerce.
So I'm being sued under the Department of Commerce?
No, no. On their suit, they misplaced the letters in the Lanham Act.
Okay, good. So the whole thing gets thrown out.
Could be, because it...
It's a technicality, but it's kind of interesting.
Hey, technicalities. If they work for criminals, maybe they can work for me.
That's like saying that charging in with murder,
and they say, oh, well, we got the number mixed up.
I'm sorry. It's a technicality.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Speak up, please.
Hey, Manuel. This is Mike from out of Cincinnati, Ohio.
How are you doing?
Good. I just wanted to let you know
that I went to the Ohio Film Fest showing of Freedom Downtime.
You're kidding. Wow. You actually made it there.
Yeah.
That's great.
It took like three hours for me to get there,
called off work, but it was awesome. I loved it.
Wow. I'm so impressed that somebody actually took the time
to make it to that film festival and see the film.
That's really good. So you liked the film?
Yeah, it was a really good film, and I've never really been to a film fest.
I didn't know what to expect.
I'd say there's probably like 20 people there,
not as many as I thought there would be.
Did anybody run for the exits during the film?
No, no. It was nice.
Everyone was laughing at certain parts.
Wow.
It was pretty great.
Did people stay for the end of the credits?
Because you kind of miss the way it ends if you don't.
No. A few people did, but most people just kind of walked out.
Yeah. Unfortunately.
You'd think at a film festival, people would stay for the credits.
Yeah.
Hopefully that will be out soon.
We're still working on getting the final music rights,
and hopefully that will be done really, really soon.
We certainly don't want to hold back on this.
Is that coming out where you can actually buy it on videotape?
That's what we're shooting for.
Okay. Thanks so much for being a part of that.
Yeah. Thanks for showing it.
Okay. And thanks to the Athens-Ohio Film Festival
for actually showing it.
The first film festival we've been accepted to.
And it might be the last for all I know.
I'm not sure. We have to submit it to a bunch of others.
Let's take one more phone call, then we'll be out of here.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Speak up.
Hi.
Hi. What's up?
I was just wondering if you could make Freedom Downtime
available on your FTP server.
Well, we can make it available in all kinds of different formats
as soon as we get the right to make it available at all.
Right. We're waiting for you.
Yeah. We're talking about videotape, online, DVDs, region-free,
all kinds of neat things like that.
Okay. So we are out of time.
So I guess what we'll be doing is we'll be focusing on this latest lawsuit
and figuring out where we're going to go from there.
They printed the disputed domain name so many times in this complaint.
I've never seen so much foul language in a lawsuit before.
I'm embarrassed to read that lawsuit.
And the thing is I'm going to be the one that's held accountable
for that four-letter word appearing everywhere.
We just registered one site and pointed it someplace.
It's not the end of the world.
Anyway, anyone with any advice or opinions,
please feel free to email us, oth at 2600.com.
We'll see you again next week. Take care.
That's understood.
The Adverse Possession Gallery at Casa del Sol,
the International Indigenous Community Center,
presents Mott Haven Matters, Future City,
an exhibit of visionary design.
Attend the opening May 19th, 5 to 7 p.m.
at 672 East 136th Street in Cypress Avenue.
Take the No. 6 train to Cypress Avenue in the Bronx.
For more information, call 718-292-6443.
The Future City project will transform Casa del Sol
into an ecologically self-sustaining international facility
in the South Bronx.
Opening May 19th, the exhibit will be on display
through June 23rd.
Call 718-292-6443.
This is a public service announcement by WBAI
on behalf of the Cherry Tree Association,
reestablishing harmony between humans and nature
in solidarity with the spirit of Crazy Horse,
this is Zool.