And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York where it's 7.02 and time once
again for Off The Hook.
This is WBAI Live at 5 in New York, New York, New York, New York, New York, New York, New
York, New York, New York, New York, New York, New York, New York, New York, New York, New
Okay.
I just want to go on the record of saying that was not my fault.
I held the right buttons.
They just didn't work.
And Ken, you're a witness, right?
I'm a wit...
Back me up at the hearing.
Good.
Good, okay, well the next problem now is my next CD is being held captive by the machine.
Look at this.
I'm hitting eject.
It won't come out, it won't play, and that's one of my favorite CDs.
It's the Dread Zone CD that I've been playing the last few weeks, and a lot of people have
been asking about that.
And now you know, and you may never hear it again because it's stuck in.
Does anybody know how to open this damn thing?
I hated when things don't work.
And today, nothing has worked right.
It's one of those days where, you know, everyone just feels compelled to get in your way and
prevent you from doing the things you need to do.
I've always made a point of telling my readers in the eight books that I have.
Who are you?
Where are you?
Oh, okay.
That was from the other studio.
The other studio which somehow remained linked even though we unlinked it.
That's great.
Can you get my CD out of there?
It's stuck pretty good, isn't it?
Sort of ruins the whole effect.
Everything was so together.
Mike, you're back.
I have these handy-dandy paperclips lying around the studio.
Because this happens so often that you need paperclips to extract your music from these
god-awful machines.
Here's a paperclip.
Yeah, take that.
Don't electrocute yourself, though.
Hi.
It doesn't translate well over the radio.
Well, then, Mike, how are you?
You weren't here last week.
I was not here.
And Jim, you weren't here either, and I see your shining face across the hall there.
Oh, it's a long story.
Yeah.
Well, try not to manhandle the microphone too much so he can actually hear what you
say.
It's a long story.
Tell us the CNN Headline News part of the long story.
That way we can get...
Oh, I was a guest of the State Department of Corrections for a few days.
You can't get that CD in this country, you know.
I just want to point that out to the people who are trying to extract it now.
What, the State Department of Corrections CD?
No.
No?
Okay, now, seriously, now, you were basically charged by the Metropolitan Transportation
Authority.
Well, no, I was charged by the state of New York, but that's previous.
I missed...
But they started it.
The MTA started the whole thing with the state of New York, right?
Well, yeah, they, with the city of New York, the police department, they gave them some
what I'll nebulously call evidence, or rather what I'll call nebulous evidence.
And yeah, the process started quite a few months ago, got arrested, finally got indicted
about a month ago.
I'll just inspect you with some hanky-panky with MetroCards.
Yeah.
Thank you so much, man.
That's what boils down to.
Should I try it again?
Gently, gently.
Gently.
Gently.
You've got to touch everything so gently around here.
The machines are as sensitive as the people.
All right.
What do you mean by that?
And the next sound you hear should be the nice ambient sounds of Dread Zone.
Wow.
But they're not.
Ah, there they are.
Okay.
No, that's not them either.
Oh, because I don't have the right thing turned up.
That was my fault.
Okay.
I'm sorry, Jim.
So continue with...
Yeah, that's okay.
...legal tribulations here.
So, yeah, they indicted me last month.
I had a couple of court appearances.
I missed one because I misread the piece of paper that they gave me.
Oh, really?
Well, that's my fault.
And, yeah, overall, it's my responsibility.
But so I'm a day late, and I go into court, and I start asking around, what do I do?
I would much rather not be arrested, you know, remanded until the next hearing.
You know, it's a bad idea.
So they said, well, contact your lawyer.
Let him handle it.
Are you sure, I say.
Well, this teaches me never ask for advice until I've exhausted every possibility.
And don't trust men in uniform on the ground floor.
They probably know nothing.
I don't think they gave me malicious advice, but they gave me wrong advice.
So I spent a lovely two nights in the tombs.
They put you in jail?
Oh, my goodness.
Knocked on my door?
This reminds me of the Fiber story, where we asked them, is it okay if we drop him off
because of the ice storm, if we drop him off, you know, later?
And they said, sure, no problem.
We bring him to the prison, and they just throw him in the hole for two days
without telling him anything.
But, what, you got thrown in the tombs?
Yeah, they didn't tell me too much, either.
No, they didn't tell me too much.
It's not very comfortable.
Yeah, I was aware of that.
Great increased appreciation for Fiber and Bernie S.
After just two little nights.
What, not Kevin?
Oh, yeah, Kevin, I'm sorry.
He's going to be displeased to hear that.
Yeah, but I only met Kevin a month ago.
I mean, Fiber I met years ago.
Bernie's a good friend of mine.
I mean, come on.
So were you in jail last week while we were on the air?
Yeah, I was.
I was wondering what happened to you.
Yeah, I couldn't make a phone call.
I really wanted to make a phone call.
Collect to the station.
Actually, I had a calling card I memorized.
I had a touch-tone phone.
I don't think you can use calling cards from jail.
Well, it depends on what sort of phone you are.
In the original holding cell, yes, it's a regular pay phone.
And you can call collect.
You can use coins if you have them.
Really?
Now, the tombs are down when?
Chinatown, right?
They're right next to the criminal court building.
The address is actually 125 White Street.
And it's connected via a bridge,
nicknamed the Bridge of Sighs
after the famous thing in Venice in the medieval times
connecting the prison to the Doge's Palace.
The Doge was the head of Venice
and all his political enemies would go before him
and then he'd just send them over this bridge to the prison.
You must have spent hours discussing the history
and the aspirations.
No, I stayed to myself.
I figured that was much safer.
Yeah, that's horrible.
So, two nights they kept you there.
Anything happen worthy of note
other than being bored to death?
A lot of bored to death.
Things that a hacker mind would see inside the tombs
that perhaps we might appreciate.
Yeah, I was trying to think of that.
There's not much.
I believe that I have a greater appreciation
for anybody who's been in prison or jail
or worked their way out of prison or jail
because I was looking around just for the hacker mind
not intending to escape.
I figured I had enough trouble
just missing a court appearance
imagine the trouble I'd be in if I escaped.
Just looking to see how feasible that was
and that was pretty damn unlikely.
So, all these guys who take a spoon
and chisel through over six months
or two years or whatever, amazing.
And this is just from missing a court date?
Oh, yeah.
For showing up and saying that you missed the court date.
Well, no, no, no.
It was not getting back to them
in the time that they wanted, obviously
on my lawyer's part.
Like I said, it gets worse, of course.
Do you want to talk about the worst part?
Oh, sure.
We only have an hour.
Oh, okay.
Well, I'll make it really quick.
My lawyer, who is not happy with the fact
that I haven't paid him
aside from the initial amount
is now taking himself off the case
so I'm one step above a public defender
something called an 18B
which is a real attorney
that donates or is forced to donate
I'm not sure how it works
some time to...
Technically, I'm an indigent defendant
so I've gone down in the quality
of my counsel
and I have...
Well, you can't have been too high
in that regard anyway
winding up in jail.
That's a good point.
Can't get much worse than that.
They're supposed to keep you out of jail.
Well, yeah, but on the other hand
like I said, it's my responsibility
if I had just read the damn piece of paper right
I would have made the appearance
the day before.
But you see, when you have a lawyer
they're supposed to also call you
and tell you, remind you of things.
I appeared in a deposition last week
for the whole DECSS case
yet again
in front of the DVD Copy Control Association
and I was reminded constantly
by my lawyer
that you have to be here at this time
to take this bus to get there.
We have one key difference.
You're able to pay your lawyer.
Well, actually, that's not entirely true
but we'll get into that.
Some other time.
Well, it's a special case.
Oh, okay.
Whereas me, I'm just another peon
in the system.
That should not enter into it.
I agree with that.
Just like with medical care
payment should not...
A lot of things should be
but you and I know
that they're different.
This is what I mean
when I say that certain things
should not be treated as commodities.
You should have the right
to competent legal representation
and to competent medical care
and all that.
But I'm just going to get off on this.
My vision of the world
which you probably disagree with.
Somewhat.
Which is rather ironic in this situation.
Yeah, it is, isn't it?
Jeff.
Yes.
How are you doing?
I'm fine.
Much better than Jim, obviously.
Yeah, but it's good to see him.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It's good to see all of you here.
It's a nice Wednesday evening.
Even I can't get it right.
So Jim, the next thing for you is what?
Is there another hearing?
Oh, yeah.
Not to mention my bail being revoked.
So I need to raise cash quick.
Wait, if your bail was revoked
then how do you raise...
I don't understand.
Did they raise it?
No, it was on my own recognizance.
Okay.
So now you're worth something more than that.
Well, I was always worth more than that.
I mean, even my enemies agree.
What are they asking for?
I got to raise two and a half.
Geez.
$2,500.
All right.
Well, outside in the street after the show
we'll be doing a little fundraiser for Jim.
He'll join us.
Address is 120 Wall Street.
I brought my harmonica.
All right, then.
Well, there's so much we have to go through
and I definitely want to pay attention to this as well
but we have so many other stories to delve into.
Well, Mike, you've been away.
Anything you want to report on that has happened?
I have a website for the audience.
You have a website for the audience?
Yes.
I'm not sure I understand.
They have to visit this website.
Okay.
What's the address?
ColumbiaReallyDivest.org
ColumbiaReallyDivest as opposed to ColumbiaDivest.org.
That's a separate website that I'm not involved with.
So this is like the tradition of Verizon really sucks.
Yes.
Okay.
ReallyDivest.
Did ColumbiaDivest, out of curiosity,
ColumbiaDivest.org,
was that taken by Columbia University?
No, no, no.
Okay.
So it's not quite the same as Verizon sucks.
There's also Columbia Don't Divest
but they're totally separate.
Who would start a website saying Columbia Don't Divest?
Who goes to the trouble of doing that?
It's actually the most popular of the three
but listeners shouldn't even bother.
All right.
Columbia Really Divest.
Really Divest.
And Columbia's spelled with a U, not like the country.
Right.
Okay.
And what's on this site?
They'll have to find out for themselves.
Well, there are people out there who are sitting,
eating a can of soup over the sink right now
that barely have electricity in their homes
that don't have access to the Internet
and they'd like to know what's on this thing.
And if you go to their public library and look,
they're in Burkino Faso.
The public library where you'll be monitored
by the federal government and all kinds of other agencies.
And Sarif, I think you're the expert on that, right?
Oh, unfortunately.
You get monitored on the way over here?
Yeah.
I think that there was somebody following me.
What's with this whole DARPA thing?
What was it?
The Information Awareness Office?
Oh, yeah.
Information Awareness.
People have been writing in about this.
Total Information Awareness is the buzzword.
Total Information Awareness.
Total, total, total.
T-I-A.
Yes.
I see that phrase bandied about a lot now
inside the Defense Department.
How would you describe the logo?
It's so 1984-ish.
Right.
Well, it's the pyramid with the eye on top,
which anybody who knows about the Masons
would be familiar with.
It's an old Mason symbol,
but it's also on the dollar bill, of course.
And it's that eye on top of the pyramid
peering at what appears to be our planet.
People who are online right now,
they can go visit this.
www.darpadarpa.mil
M-I-L
slash I-A-O
Right.
And take a look at that symbol
while you continue to describe it.
While it's still there.
Yeah.
So that's it, and it says
Scientia Espotentia,
which is knowledge is power.
He's looking at me like I speak Latin.
No, wait a minute.
You go to Columbia, Mike.
It was the slogan of my...
Knowledge is power.
Wait, is that from 1984?
No.
Knowledge is strength is from 1984.
Knowledge is power
was the slogan of my junior high school,
of all things.
They haven't quite gotten to the point.
They got it from Francis Bacon,
circa 1580 or so.
The English philosopher.
Okay, now the purpose of this agency,
it's been in a story on 2600,
but the purpose of this agency,
I'm kind of confused.
I mean, there seem to be so many agencies
like this popping up,
but this one is particularly scary looking.
Right.
The logo almost says it all.
Well, yeah.
You got the eye.
You got the planet.
It's the planet, right?
Right.
Yeah.
We are just a country on the planet.
We're not the entire planet,
at least not yet.
Right.
Well, you know,
one of the funny things about the logo
is that our particular continent
doesn't appear on the globe.
You see a whole lot of Europe and Asia,
and you see Australia.
Oh, so we're watching them.
But we're on the other side.
Well, you know,
Australia is actually,
appears to be on the dark side.
It's on the part that isn't being
illuminated by the all-seeing eye.
Well, they're lucky then, aren't they?
Yeah, for the moment.
And then, of course,
the all-seeing eye is certainly staring
straight at the Middle East,
but the whole fate of the Americas
is really kind of unclear.
But the idea is basically that,
yeah, it's the all-seeing eye.
They want to take all different sources
of communications intelligence,
interception of,
and, you know,
we're not just talking about interception
like with a court order
or a particular person's phone
or anything like that,
but the kind of dragnet echelon type of thing
where you're pulling in all emails,
all telephone calls, faxes,
other kinds of electronic communication.
And you're also pulling in
all kinds of databases,
whether they're government databases
or private databases belonging to hospitals
or your local video rental store or whatever.
And they want to integrate
all of these sources into one system
where they can search it
the same way that you'd
search the Internet
or they can run little spiders on it
the same way that search engines
spider around the web.
Who is the they?
Well, you see,
that's the problem is that
it's not really clear.
I mean, DARPA is doing this,
but DARPA isn't an intelligence agency.
They're a technology agency.
They're here to develop this stuff.
So who's going to be in control of it?
Well, I would guess the
Office of Homeland Security,
but they don't even really exist yet.
Oh, but they will.
They will.
They will,
but who will be controlling it?
Who will be controlling it?
And that's the problem is that,
you know,
even if Homeland Security is
the most honorable bunch of folks
that you ever met.
Don't believe that.
Well, if you just pretend for a minute,
I mean, let's say that
they're totally honorable
and that they'll use this thing
the way it really ought to be used.
And heck, it's a powerful system
and you could probably stop
a lot of crime with it.
But like I said,
if you can read brainwaves,
you can also stop a lot of crime.
But who's going to control it tomorrow?
I mean, once you put something
like this in place,
who's going to control it?
Who's going to say
who has access to it?
And who's going to make sure
that that's enforced?
You know, even if somebody says,
well, this is only something
that can be accessed
by such and such department.
Well, I think you're being
kind of negative here.
I mean, it's not as if,
you know,
the watch lists
that they put out
on potential terrorists
get out of hand,
like that story
that popped up on CNN the other day.
U.S. watch list has taken on
life of its own,
the FBI says.
That's right.
FBI officials said on Tuesday
they have lost control,
that's their words,
of an agency-created watch list
of people wanted for questioning
following September 11th terrorist attacks.
They acknowledge that the list,
which has gone through
several manifestations,
has taken on a life of its own
and has shown up
on several websites
and contains names of people
who have been cleared
of any possible connection
to last year's attack.
The FBI said the list
was not a list of suspects
but people who agents
wanted to talk to.
So basically they're saying,
we wash our hands of this,
it's out there,
and we can't control it anymore.
But you know,
I think the blame
does fall squarely on them
because who started the list?
Who sent the list
to various people
who were irresponsible enough
to send it all over the place?
And, you know,
who do we blame in the end?
I think the FBI
has got to take responsibility
for this.
A lot of innocent people
are being targeted now
who are not deserving
of that kind of a thing.
A law enforcement official
compared it to the weekly
terror bulletins sent out
to state and local
law enforcement partners.
Once that leaves headquarters,
we have no more
control, they say.
However,
it's wound up
in the hands
of private enterprise.
Apparently it gets sent
to car rental agencies
and other such places.
Just for the sake of fun,
I'm going to ask
any of our moles
in these places,
if they have access
to that list,
send us a copy
because let's see
how easy it is
to get a copy
of this list.
And you can send that
to oth at 2600.com
or just mail it to us
or leave it on our doorstep
or something like that.
You know,
if this thing is
that kind of a thing
security threat,
let's see how secure
it really is.
I don't think it's
secure at all.
I think a lot of
innocent people
are being taken
advantage of.
And that's the same
basic threat
on all of these.
You know,
whether it's DARPA
or whether it's FBI.
Basically,
when you start
these things,
yeah,
they don't get
dismantled.
They stay there
and they get abused.
And before you know it,
everybody is able
to look up anything
and find all kinds
of personal information.
There's no end.
You mentioned Australia.
Interesting things
coming from Australia, too.
Police in New South Wales
will be given
extraordinary powers
to search vehicles,
sites,
and even a general
quote,
type of person,
unquote.
What type of person
do you think
they'd say we were?
What does that mean?
I don't know.
I'd love to find out.
A general type of person
in the event
of a terrorism threat
or after a terrorist attack.
Now,
do they mean
military folk,
a general type of person?
No,
they mean
that.
It's not capital G.
But it's interesting
because,
coincidentally,
Australia has gotten
that terrorist attack.
They've received
the terrorist threat,
rather,
that they were looking for
so that enables them
to do this.
The Terrorism Bill,
or otherwise known
as the Police Powers Bill,
would allow police
acting on credible
information
to stop,
search,
and demand
the names
and addresses
of anyone
who fitted
the broad description
of a potential terrorist.
Human.
Is that broad enough
for you?
The Premier,
Bob Carr,
has outlined
the details
of the new legislation
which he described
as,
quote,
one of the most
significant bills
introduced
into the
New South Wales
Parliament,
unquote.
Under the legislation,
the police commissioner,
the deputy commissioners,
or in their absence,
an officer
above the rank
of superintendent
could authorize
the search
of people,
vehicles,
and sites
and in the event
of an attack,
police could be given
the same powers
for 48 hours
and the opportunity
to extend that time
if deemed necessary.
It's like we're watching
some science fiction
thing unfold.
It's unbelievable.
You know,
1984 was on TV
last night.
The one from 1984
that was made in 1984.
It was so familiar
just looking at the people
screaming at the telescreen
and, you know,
embracing Big Brother.
It seems more familiar
every day.
You know,
we were speaking
to some of the
people
who were
You know,
we were speaking
just a moment ago
about this suspect list,
but it's soon going
to be a thing
of the past.
I mean,
if you look at
this example
in Australia
and if you look
at the
total information
awareness example,
the suspect list
is going to be
more like the phone book.
You're not going
to really need one
because the exceptions
will be the people
who aren't the suspects.
Yeah,
absolutely.
There's an excellent
article in the
New York Times
They go into
a little more detail.
Yeah,
actually that William
Sapphire article
I read that
on the train
the other day.
I broke my promise
and I took a train
again on Long Island
which I regret doing
and I don't know
if I want to get
into this,
but they really
they did something
but they lost a train.
They basically
lost a train.
Well,
they didn't really
lose a train.
What they did was
they gave out
schedules a week
ahead of time
so everybody got
on the wrong train
and it wasn't because
we were still on
the old schedule
but they hadn't
given out the new schedule
so all these people
were stranded.
Like I said,
I should keep
to my promises.
Is this one of these
double-decker diesel ones
that they're doing now?
It was supposed to be
but it wasn't.
So there wasn't
even any novelty to it.
It was just standing
on a platform
for an hour.
Anyway,
about the target person
they go into
a little bit more
detail as to what
exactly a type
of person is.
We've made it
very clear,
for example,
the description
of Middle Eastern
appearance would
not be sufficient.
It would have to go
further in the
detailing of that
person.
It may well be a
Middle Eastern
person with a beard
and identification
scarring.
Hey,
hey,
wait.
Uh-huh.
What's this about
the beard?
Well,
you don't look
Middle Eastern.
Not especially
anyway.
You don't have
to worry.
Also,
speaking with
the New York
Times,
the ID card
incorporating
biometric features
would help
stem the
rising tide
of identity
theft.
That's the
other scare
word going
around.
That's according
to a security
and surveillance
forum that was
held in Sydney.
Australian
federal police
forensic expert
James Brandy
said a better
system for
verifying personal
identity was
needed and a
national card
was a matter
of hours.
Now,
is this really
true?
I mean,
yeah,
somebody can,
you know,
can get a hold
of your credit
card,
they can get a
hold of all
kinds of other
things,
but identity
theft is,
you know,
it's something
that I don't
think is as
impossible to
deal with as
the people who
want you to
panic are
saying.
There's something
wrong with
that.
Well,
you know,
in these
situations where
people have
their identity
stolen and
somebody's running
around buying
things as them
or pretending
that they're
dead or
something like
that,
the big problem
always seems to
be that when
they call up
these companies
that think that
they're up to
something that
they're not up
to and they
explain,
well,
that's just
stupidity.
That can be
treated.
This,
however,
I mean,
once you
establish national
ID cards to
quote-unquote
fight these
things,
again,
you're setting
up something
which is never
going to be
dismantled,
something that
can be used
for all kinds
of nefarious
purposes,
and I don't
think it's
really much
we'll do
much to
change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that

we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
do
much
to change
the
way
that
we
fight
these
things.
I
don't
think
we'll
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