from Pauline Bartolone, web support from Vanessa Tate, and our interns are Rosalind Faye, Susan
Chelly, Fernando Romero, Christopher Martinez, and William Prodomo. I'm Dipa Fernandes.
This is Phil Les at The Grateful Dead and you're listening to WBAI-FM New York City 99.5.
I couldn't have said it better myself. This is, well, it's seven o'clock. We know what
station it is. WBAI in New York. It's Wednesday night. It's time for Off The Hook.
Now I can't make a call. We couldn't get much worse. But if they could, they would.
I hope that's understood.
And the program is Off The Hook. This is going to be a very interesting show. Stay tuned.
I hope that's understood. And the program is Off The Hook. This is going to be a very
interesting show.
And he said, I thought I'd tell you about an experience I had this morning. This morning
being Tuesday, yesterday. He lives out in the Denver area. Vice President Dick Cheney
is here in Denver, or at least he was yesterday. And you know, Dick Cheney is the guy nobody
ever knows where he is because for some reason we can't tell people where he is because there
would be a security violation. As if anybody cares about Dick Cheney in the first place.
But he was in Denver yesterday. Continuing with the letter. He was staying at a hotel
downtown. My route this morning took me past the hotel. And as I had my camera with me,
since I'm an amateur photographer and I always carry my camera, I took the opportunity to
Unfortunately, the pictures were of several black beret-wearing army rangers positioned
outside the hotel. They were chatting with a few of Denver's finest. I also snapped a
few shots of the snipers stationed on the rooftops of the buildings facing the hotel.
If I could just step out of the letter for a second. I've done the same thing many times
when I go to D.C. Photograph snipers on top of the roof of the White House. I've done
the same thing in New York at the WEF conference and various other things that have happened
over the years. It's what you do in a free society. You take pictures. Okay. Let's get
back to the letter. It was a couple of blocks away from the hotel that the snipers were
on the rooftops. And as I was putting my camera away, I was approached by a uniformed police
officer who asked me what I was doing. I don't know how many ways you can answer the question
but basically he answered it the truthful way. Just taking a few pictures, I replied.
The policeman said I was seen taking pictures of the vice president's security and as such
he was confiscating my camera and film. When I refused to give up the camera, he pushed
me down and arrested me. After a ride to the local police station and a few hours alone
in an interrogation room, I was questioned by a man who identified himself as a Secret
Service agent. He said that my, quote, suspicious activities, unquote, made me a threat to national
security and I was going to be charged as a terrorist under the USA Patriot Act. He
also kept trying to get me to admit that I was a terrorist and that I was going to use
the pictures I took to cause, quote, terror and mayhem. When I refused to play along,
he called me a raghead collaborator and a dirty pinko faggot. After nearly an hour of
this, I was allowed to make a phone call, ostensibly to contact a lawyer. Instead, I
called the Denver Post, thinking the local press might be interested in something like
this. And when the desk sergeant heard me ask for the news desk, he hung up the phone
I was using and I was placed in a holding cell. After another hour or two, I was released
with no explanation and was told only that they knew who I was now and they would be
watching me. When I asked for my camera, I was told it was being held as evidence and
that I probably would not get it back. I guess taking pictures now makes me a terrorist.
You'd think I was photographing a bridge. Nice country we live in, signed Mike. Mike
McGinnis joins us from the Denver area. Mike, you there?
Hey, Manuel.
How you doing?
I'm all right. How are you?
Oh, pretty good. Pretty shaken up after seeing this letter of yours. Well, there's some
follow-up. You've been in touch with a couple of people since then. I understand the police
department is now denying that they ever held you in the first place?
Yeah, that's right. I spoke to an ACLU lawyer this afternoon and he made some phone calls
and basically the police department says that they never had me. And it was his opinion
and I don't know if I agree with this or not, but it was his opinion that what happened
was that the Denver police department was basically working for the Secret Service to
help provide security for the vice president. And when this happened, they simply turned
all the paperwork over to the Secret Service and washed their hands of the whole incident.
Now, you said in your letter that there was a Secret Service agent in the room?
Yeah.
So, now the Secret Service was there while this was going on?
Yeah. They were there. Well, I mean, basically the police put me in an interrogation room
and let the Secret Service agent have at me, sort of.
Now, the Secret Service, were they the ones that were asking most of the questions?
Yeah, it was just me and him. There were no police officers in the room when the questioning
was happening.
And he's the one who called you a raghead collaborator, dirty pinko faggot?
Yes, that's right.
Okay. Now, did you happen to get any names while you were there?
I got his name, the agent's name, and I also have what I think is the arresting Denver
police department officer's name, but I wasn't too sure. My adrenaline was racing at the
time, so I wasn't really paying attention to the badge numbers and things like that.
But you remember the names?
I do.
Okay. And obviously, you remember where you were. You were taken to, do you want to tell
us what building you were taken to?
The District No. 1 Police Station, which is down on Decatur Street here in Denver, which
is, I don't know, a couple of miles from where this was. I was standing in the courtyard
of the World Trade Center buildings here in Denver, which is across the street from the
Adams Mark Hotel, where the Vice President was staying. And it faces the front entrance,
and that's where the Army Rangers were hanging out.
It really seems incredible that they would behave like this. I mean, I guess I'm not
very surprised to see this kind of a thing happen, but you were basically taking pictures.
Do you want to tell us what kinds of pictures you were taking?
I take a lot of pictures downtown. There's a lot of interesting buildings, a lot of interesting
architecture out there. And it's not every day that you see Army Rangers hanging out
in front of a civilian hotel like that with their M-16s.
Now, how close did you actually get to the hotel?
It was across the street, and I was never actually on the hotel property.
So you didn't trespass anywhere? You didn't enter any buildings?
No. No, I was outside.
At any time, did any policemen say to stop taking pictures before they approached you?
No. No, I had finished my role and was putting my camera away when I was approached. I was
done taking pictures. So whoever it was, either saw me as I was finishing up or went ahead
and watched me. And when they started putting the camera away, that's when they decided
to approach me.
And how many cops approached you?
One cop and his partner, who kind of stood off to the side menacingly, as they do.
And can you describe the moment where they actually arrested you?
Oh, sure. He asked me for my camera and film. He said he was going to have to confiscate
it. And I said, well, I'm not going to give you my camera. He said, well, I'm going to
have to arrest you. And I said, for what? Then he put his hand on my shoulder and pushed
me down to the ground. At that point, I wasn't going to make things worse by trying to resist
arrest. So I just knelt down and the other cop took the camera out of my hand. And that's
when they put the cuffs on me and put me in the car and drove me away.
Did they say anything at the time as far as anything bringing up the Patriot Act or anything
involving terrorism or anything stupid that they might have said that can come back to
haunt them?
No, there was no mention of that. The cops themselves were actually well behaved. I got
the distinct impression that they probably didn't want to be there and didn't want to
be doing that and that they were taking orders from somebody else.
Did they seem reluctant to arrest you?
They did at first. And I think they used my refusal to simply hand over the camera as
an excuse to sort of get me off the street because there were some passersby that were
taking an interest in what was going on.
Now, how many people were gathering around while this was happening?
It wasn't really a gathering. It was people walking by, heads turned, slowing down a little
bit to see what was going on.
So there were witnesses to the fact that you were arrested?
Oh, yeah.
Okay. Now, while they were doing this, were other law enforcement people looking on, such
as Secret Service agents or other policemen?
Well, there were some other cops. I mean, I was in plain view of the front of the hotel
and the Rangers were watching me. There were a few other cops out there that had turned
to watch what was going on, but nobody approached or drew a weapon or anything like that.
So they threw you in the police car, they drove you down to the police station?
That's right.
Okay. And then from that point on, what, they just threw you into an interrogation room?
Did they fingerprint you?
Well, I was actually fingerprinted and photographed and then sat in the interrogation room and
said somebody would be with me. And so I sat for a few hours and that's when the Secret
Service came in. And he basically went on and on about, you know, how would, how, why
would anyone want to take pictures of the President's security forces unless they were
going to use that to analyze weaknesses in security, you know, and possibly attempt to
assassinate him. And I just told them, I said, hey, I'm just taking pictures and there's
nothing, there's nothing that I know of in any U.S. law or any state federal laws that
can't do that.
Nothing I can find either, nothing that I've ever heard that makes it illegal to take
pictures of a building or of people inside, inside a building.
Sure.
It just seems unbelievable that this kind of a thing would happen. Now, they didn't
actually charge you with anything, did they?
No, no. He mentioned the USA Patriot Act a few times and that I would be charged as a
terrorist. The interesting thing is that, as far as I understand it, the USA Patriot
Act is actually an act that describes the limits or expanded capabilities of intelligence
surveillance rather than actual, you know, terrorists themselves and any act that they
might take.
Yeah, it seems to me whoever said that has limited understanding of just what exactly
the law is.
Sure.
I imagine it was said to intimidate you and to make it sound like they knew what they
were talking about and that they were playing for keeps.
Absolutely.
So, okay, how long did the conversation with the Secret Service take place?
It lasted for about 45 minutes.
Okay.
And it was basically just a round and round, you know, why are you taking these pictures
because I want to. What are you going to do with them? I'm not going to do anything
with them. Are you a terrorist? No, I'm not. Yes, you are. Back and forth, back and forth.
Now, how civil was this guy?
He was, for the most part, he was pretty civil and he, you know, tried to raise his voice
to threaten me a few times and I generally don't get intimidated by that sort of thing
and I think he sensed that that probably wasn't the best way to go. So, for the most part,
I guess he was maybe looking for a logical way to make me confess to something that I
wasn't going to do. I don't know.
Now, was there any kind of physical intimidation?
No. No time did he reach across the table or anything like that.
So, basically, you were sitting at one end of the table, he was sitting at the other
end of the table and he was just basically trying to get you to admit to things.
That's right.
Did he try to intimidate you by bringing in, like, you know, friends, family, that kind
of thing? How would it affect them?
Well, he had mentioned my family. My father was in the military, retired after 23 years
of service and he brought that up a few times about how, you know, how much it would embarrass
my old man that I was a traitor and, you know, that this was treason and blah, blah, blah.
Well, of course, wouldn't you admitting it also make it embarrassing? How would that
encourage you to admit it?
Well, you would think so, yeah, but, you know, you don't know how our minds work sometimes.
I've always wondered, actually, after seeing the things that they've done in the past with
some of our people. It's unbelievable.
Now, at some point there had to be, I guess, a change in an attitude where they decided
they weren't going to go after you. Can you define that moment?
Well, like I said, the round-around process went on for about 45 minutes and I guess he
made this, you know, big flourish about how disgusted he was with me and that he couldn't
do anything about it and do anything for me and I was a lost case and threw up his hands
and gathered his papers and left the room.
And at that point a police officer came in and said, you can have a phone call and I'm
assuming that they thought I was going to call my lawyer.
And said you called the Denver Post.
Yeah, and I called the Denver Post and asked for the news desk and the phone was out there
at the sergeant's desk and as soon as he heard me ask for the news desk, he hung up the phone
and they escorted me back to a holding cell and I stayed there for a couple of hours and
was released.
Do you remember what he said when he hung up the phone?
No, he didn't really say anything. He hung it up and motioned to another one of the cops
to take him back to holding.
And there was no more interaction from that point on?
Well, when I was finally released after a couple of hours in the cell by myself, I wasn't
really given any explanation as to why I was there other than what had already been said
to me.
There was no mention of court dates, anything like that.
When I asked for my camera, they said that it was being held as evidence and I probably
wouldn't receive that back.
Did he ask why?
Well, at that point, I just kind of wanted to get out of there.
I was scared and tired and wanted to go home.
I'm sure that my lawyers, that's one of the things that they're going to be asking for.
Did they give you any kind of paperwork at all?
No, which is kind of surprising when you consider that usually when you're arrested and released,
you get an arrest report which includes the officer's name, badge number, the time of
the incident, the details of the incident, any evidence that was obtained at the scene.
And I got none of that.
Well, I guess in those situations where they want to deny that they ever held you, they
don't give you paperwork.
Maybe that's what's going through their minds.
Yeah, that's probably the case and it wouldn't surprise me if they just handed all of that
over to the Secret Service.
Now, at any point during this whole interrogation process, were you asking for a lawyer?
No, I didn't think I needed a lawyer.
I didn't do anything wrong.
If anything, I felt that wrong was being done to me as far as civil rights violations.
I didn't, like I said, need a lawyer because I didn't do anything.
It's quite an ordeal that you went through.
For those just tuning in, we're talking to Mike McGinnis from Denver.
You're from Denver?
Yes.
He committed the crime yesterday of taking pictures on a public street of a hotel that
Dick Cheney was staying in and was held for...
How many hours were you held for?
About six hours in total.
Six hours by local police and the Secret Service.
Threatened with imprisonment for being a terrorist, among other things.
I imagine it was a pretty intimidating type of experience overall.
Yeah, my heart still gets racing when I talk about it.
Has there been any kind of media interest in this at all?
Well, I called the Denver Post again this morning and basically I was told that
they're going to need some sort of proof of this.
Otherwise, as far as they're concerned, I could be some wacko off the street making all this up.
Okay, well let's figure out how can we prove that you're not a wacko off the street making this up.
You were taken to a building.
Now, I imagine you were taken to a room inside that building.
Yes.
And I imagine you hadn't been in that room before.
Okay, so the fact that you can tell people exactly how to get to that room,
for one thing, would be good evidence where things are.
You say you have certain names.
We can do some checking to see if those people exist.
It really shouldn't be too hard to prove that this really happened.
Plus, there are the witnesses on the streets of Denver that saw you being arrested.
I don't know if there's any way to reach those people.
In addition, I'm sure they have surveillance cameras inside the police station.
Good luck getting the records for that.
The records are out there.
The question is, are the records being destroyed?
And can we get access to them to find out more about this?
Yes, I agree with that.
You mentioned the police surveillance cameras.
I can't think that I'm important enough for them to go destroy evidence like that.
The only thing I can think of is that they would have handed that over
to the Secret Service along with everything else.
Has your lawyer been in touch with the Secret Service?
He's making those calls tonight.
I'd like to open this up to our listeners if they have any questions
that they'd like to ask Mike McGinnis over in Denver
who just experienced what I consider to be a horrible type of a thing.
But not something that's incredibly surprising.
If you've been listening to what's been going on over the past year or so,
it's not surprising that this kind of a thing would start to happen
where people are harassed simply for being on the street,
taking pictures, acting like normal people,
and being accused of all kinds of terrorist affiliations and things like that.
So while I'm certainly shocked by what happened, I'm not surprised.
It's something we have to wake up about and get people outraged.
Hopefully people will get outraged about this.
I'd be very upset if this was not on some front pages
of newspapers around the country in the next week or so
or talked about in various other places.
We certainly intend to follow up on just about everything possible
we can follow up on.
Let's turn it over first to people in the studio
if there's any comments here and then we'll take some phone calls.
212-209-2900.
First of all, the police cars usually have cameras
and also they took his fingerprints and his photographs
and they're not likely to destroy records of his fingerprints and his mugshots.
Yeah, but they could hide them.
How do we check their records to make sure that these things really exist?
If the cop car went to the station,
there would be records and plus the video from the cop cars,
the video surveillance camera would be recording and if they...
You see, that's all well and good if it's not in their possession to start with
but the police have possession of this.
It's like going to a criminal's house and saying,
you have video of you committing a crime, please turn it over to us.
But if they delete it, they cannot account for it.
Or they could replace it.
I mean, they're good at this.
I don't necessarily implicate the Denver Police Department by saying this
but if they were to commit a crime,
I'm sure they would know what they were doing as far as that goes.
Having, unfortunately, recent experience with mugshots and fingerprints,
Mr. McGinnis knows about what time all this happened
so there would be a series of photographs of criminals,
a series of fingerprints being taken.
All you do is...
They're all public records.
All you do is subpoena all of them and find him in the middle.
Ideally.
As you say, yes, the cops would be smart.
They should substitute one somewhere in there
but they may not be able to.
I have the same problem with that as I do with the whole idea
of the Freedom of Information Act
which, you know, is going to be dead soon anyway
but while it existed, you're asking for, you know,
confidential information supposedly from people
and the people that decide to give it to you
are the people that are keeping it secret
and you have to somehow trust them
and it's just very hard for me to do that.
Well, I apologize if I talk over Mike.
I can't hear him.
But what system would you prefer?
I mean, given that we can't rely on the police,
how do you propose we get the records?
I'm not sure what you're asking.
I mean, you're complaining that the Freedom of Information Act
relies on the police to give you the records
that they're allegedly hiding but...
Well, no, I wasn't referring to the Freedom of Information Act
in regards to this case.
I'm referring to that in general
but as far as getting the information,
you have a third party that's not tied
to that particular organization
or that group that you're asking for the information from.
You have some kind of oversight committee
or a group of people that aren't, you know,
that group themselves
and that way you know at least
that it's not likely that there's a cover-up.
It still is possible but it's just not as likely.
Yeah.
All right.
Let's take some phone calls.
212-209-2900.
We have a full phone bank here.
We're talking to Mike McGinnis
who went through hell yesterday in Denver
thanks to the Denver Police and Secret Service
for taking pictures of the hotel
the Vice President was staying in
and is he still there, by the way?
He was this morning, yes.
You know, this is what I think, okay?
And I'll probably get in trouble for saying this
but I really think from this point on
we should...
and not you, Mike, you know.
You're in enough trouble as it is
but I'm just saying to our listeners in general
we should make it our mission
to tell everybody where the Vice President is
at all moments, okay?
Because this is ridiculous.
You know, have a country run on secrecy like this
where people are kept hidden.
Nobody cares, you know.
He's not, you know, somebody that needs to be hidden
and if he is somebody that needs to be hidden
then he's not a very effective leader in the first place
and certainly not somebody that should be leading a country
that supposedly is open and free, supposedly.
So if you know where the Vice President is
please let everybody know
and we'll take as many pictures as we want
so they can't throw us all in prison for taking pictures.
Well, yeah.
Okay, they might throw us all in prison
but boy, you know,
I guess we'll have the final say or something.
Our relatives will have the final say.
I don't know.
Somebody will.
Okay, and Mike, if you have to go at any time
just say so
but we're going to take some phone calls now, okay?
All right, here we go.
First phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello, is that me?
How are you doing?
Hi, thanks very much.
I work for almost two decades
as a freelance technical journal support person,
let's say,
you know, camera sound,
that kind of thing.
I've shot all over the country
in different cities and so forth
and I've got to tell you
that the climate is getting worse
in terms of just people in buildings, paranoia.
I've had people come up to us on the street
and we're there with our full credentials
and they say,
what are you shooting?
And we say,
we're shooting your building.
It's like on the street.
Put a shroud over it.
It's getting ridiculous.
If you're on a public...
So let me just ask this.
Were there any other media present
at this hotel location
with the satellite trucks
and people doing stand-ups
and that kind of thing
at the same place that you were
maybe just in a different location
at the same time?
No, it was fairly early in the morning
and I imagine
there were probably some press
that followed Cheney
around inside the hotel
but there was nobody outside.
So it wasn't like
there was no set form
and people were set up
for press avails with him
or anything like that.
He's like being spirited
around the country
like a little,
I don't know what,
hidden thing,
you know,
just like he just comes
in and out without...
And so you were just
standing there.
Are you a member
of a news gathering organization
of any kind,
a professional group
or even an indie media
or anything like that?
No, I'm not.
You don't have
any press credentials
or anything?
No, I'm an IT professional.
I just take care
of the press.
I'm an IT professional.
I just take pictures
on the side mostly.
And what kind of camera
was it exactly?
I'm just curious.
It was a Nikon F2.
It was nothing special.
Uh-huh.
Just stills?
Just shooting stills?
Not even video?
Just shooting stills.
35 millimeter stills.
In other words,
black and white stills.
Uh-huh.
Wow.
And do you have
any distinguishing features?
Are you known
as an activist in the area
or any kind of...
Would they be hunting you
for any reason
that you know of?
I mean,
are you part of any part
of a group or anything
like, you know,
we have a million groups
in the city
who refuse and resist
and et cetera, et cetera,
the International Lancer
and Not My Name
and there's all these
great groups out there.
You know,
I'm just wondering
how far they're trying
to profile people
and they're always
taking pictures.
How did you know
that Cheney was there?
Did you know beforehand
that he was there
or were you just coincident?
Maybe you're recapping
a little bit,
but I just tuned in,
so are you...
No, no.
Did you know
he was there in advance?
It was on the...
warehouse.
Oh, you must be a terrorist then.
Wow, abandoned warehouses, huh?
Yeah, exactly.
Okay, well this is heavy hitters here.
Okay, well
let's take some more phone calls.
212-209-2900. By the way,
Mike, how much would you say your camera was valued at?
Oh, it's not much.
Two or three hundred dollars.
That is something. That's a lot to quite a few people.
Sure.
If it had been stolen from you,
you probably would have reported it to the police, right?
Oh, absolutely, but it's not like losing, you know,
a $10,000 brand new Nikon
or something like that.
That's true. But it could have been, you know?
They didn't make any distinction.
They don't know anything about cameras.
How many pictures did you have on it?
I had a 36
frame roll
and I probably had most of the pictures
of the hotel.
And that was the only roll you had?
I had several other rolls in my bag.
And did they take those?
They took the whole bag.
They took everything.
Okay, so what else did they take?
They took your bag with everything in it?
Yes.
So what else did you lose?
Well, just a couple of rolls of film
that I hadn't shot yet, a couple of rolls of film
that I had shot up here in the mountains
this past weekend, and the one roll
that I had been taking downtown.
And then the lens that was attached to the camera as well.
That's probably worth more than the camera.
And was there anything else in the bag,
like any kind of personal effects?
No.
All right, let's take some more phone calls.
212-209-2900.
And good evening, you're on the air.
Hello?
Yes, go ahead.
Hi, how are you today?
Well, kind of shaken up, but what's your question?
Well, I'm going to help you out.
I think that we have to somewhat
be understanding of the state of the union.
And this isn't the Clinton administration
We have a different administration
and we kind of have to,
when you have a new DJ,
you change the beat.
I mean, when they change a song,
there's a different beat.
You have to play along to that beat
until we can get a new administration in.
What beat are they playing by right now?
One that I don't
necessarily agree with,
but it's
not an American...
It's not one
that is constitutionally correct.
And I don't agree
with what they did.
However, if someone came up to me
and said, give me your watch,
here's my watch.
If they wanted the camera, I know it's not right,
but sometimes we have to submit
and unfortunately
give in to some of our own
little...
Hang on here a second.
Mike did not resist.
He did everything they told him to.
He gave up his camera.
He refused to give up his camera there on the spot.
That's true.
But he did not resist arrest.
He did not cause any kind of...
He refused to give them the camera.
Just give it to them.
It's not worth the headache.
It's not worth the Secret Service file.
It's not worth your prints.
What was done?
Let's figure out how to rectify this.
First of all, who's the senior senator of Denver?
I don't know offhand.
Of Colorado, let's say.
Yeah, of Colorado, because Denver has not yet...
All right, Denver, Colorado.
I'm showing my ignorance and my intelligence at the same time.
Yeah, I should know this, but I don't.
I don't either.
That's his office. That's his spokesperson.
That's who the attorney should be in contact with.
And from there, the senator should be
in contact with the
majority leader of the Senate.
And it needs to go forth that
the Secret Service may have acted
unconstitutionally.
That's one means of rectifying it.
As well as
with regard to the evidence,
if he was fingerprinted, then he's in the system
for the entire state.
Have some other law enforcement agent somewhere else in the state
run his fingerprints.
He has to go in, find a friend
of this cause, fingerprint him
again and put him in the computer,
and it would match up and tell
about the arrest date and
his fingerprints from that other date and location.
Okay, but the point is
if you just submit from the start
and do whatever they tell you,
they'll ask for increasingly
intrusive types
of things to do.
You have the right. Do you not agree that you have the
right to take a picture of a public building on a public street?
It really just depends on
the individual.
It shouldn't depend. It should be a yes or no.
Do you or don't you?
We have the right. However,
we also have the right to walk
in the middle of the night at 3 in the morning
on 42nd Street or 8th Avenue
or 11th Avenue or
downtown D.C., the murder capital
of the world or anywhere else.
But would we do it? No.
Speak for yourself.
I have walked in dangerous neighborhoods
in the middle of the night.
If somebody told me,
don't walk down here, they're either somebody who's
threatening me or somebody who's trying to warn me,
I wouldn't do it.
The right is there, yes.
You should not have to worry about being
accosted by the police.
I agree.
In a dangerous neighborhood, it's normally...
I'll share a quick story with you
that happened in 1993.
Okay, make it quick because we want to take some more calls.
Real quick.
Ninety-three recent grads from college moved to the Upper East Side,
which my parents thought was the safest place
in the world.
I was walking back from Blockbuster,
crossing over 86th and 3rd.
There was this blue cougar
that went through the light
and almost hit me, and I had to hit the hood.
The guy jumps out and
puts a 9mm in my face
and tells me to start running.
I could smell his alcohol.
He's drunk. I knew he was a police officer.
I have a lot of law enforcement agents in the family.
Wait, how did you know he was a police officer
from the smell of the alcohol?
I had mannerisms.
That was a good one.
By his mannerisms, by the 9mm,
by his temperament,
he was obviously drunk,
and he had a 9mm pointing at me.
I guess that's all the ingredients right there
that adds up to law enforcement.
I wasn't going to aggravate him.
I submitted. I stared him down.
He holstered it and drove off.
I got his license plate number.
I called the 19th precinct.
They went out.
They came. They responded. They ran the plate.
They knew it was one of theirs.
They said,
We're going to look around for the person
and then we're going to try to contact the commanding officer.
I said,
Why can't you go out to where he lives right now?
He's still intoxicated.
They wouldn't do it.
I had to do the whole
when you report something about the police abuse.
Civilian complaint.
Right, the civilian complaint thing.
Suddenly he lost 10 vacation days.
I could have lost my life.
He lost 10 vacation days.
It's good that you told people about it.
That's important.
What I think is important
is that sometimes
you have to know
when to give in somewhat.
If you have a gun pointed at your face,
generally it's not a good idea to debate the issue
whatever the issue might be at the time.
I don't think that's what was happening here.
I think we had a case
where somebody was being told to do something
that was clearly unreasonable
against everything that we supposedly stand for.
He rightly acted
and said,
I'm not going to do that.
He paid the price, which was being arrested.
But apparently not being arrested
if you ask the cops
because they say it never happened.
Now we have an interesting story
where we have to get to the bottom of this
and see who's lying here
and who's out there nationally
as well as get the senior senator involved.
Senior citizens too.
They're welcome as well.
We're going to move on to another call.
Thanks very much for calling though.
You're welcome.
The senior senator is a senior citizen, but never mind.
I think the senior citizen is Ben Nighthorse Campbell
but I may be wrong.
I'm sorry that you just hung up on that caller
because I want to cut to the chase
on his discussion.
When they take us
to the concentration camps
I will back that caller
when he wants to join the group
clearing out the crematoriums.
I mean really.
The acquiescence on his part
is shocking.
I'm a Republican and I'm upset that I'm even saying
this sort of thing.
It's not a Democrat-Republican thing.
It's the most liberal thing I've ever said in my life.
We're not talking about liberal stuff.
It burns my stomach.
This is what I meant before when I said
it's not a left-right thing.
It's against freedom.
It's against free society.
Everybody can recognize that.
We have to resist now because later on we won't be able to.
And the last thing we should be doing is
splitting into factions and saying
you supported this particular struggle and you didn't
therefore you're more worthy.
Some people are acquiescing from the start
and that boils me up.
That's absolutely something that I would take issue with.
Mike, I've got to commend you
for your strength here
for actually standing up.
It must have been a really intimidating experience.
I imagine most people probably would have done
what the last caller suggested
and just given up the camera.
Well, thank you.
It was rather scary.
As far as I know, we still have a few rights left
in this country.
A few.
All right, let's take another phone call.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi.
I want to agree with you and commend your caller
for doing the right thing.
The whole question
of the terminology
raghead,
I want to focus on that.
That makes us a bias crime.
We all know what that means.
Everybody listening to this broadcast knows
what that, whoever that was, agent,
special services, CIA, whatever,
meant when he
referred to that term.
This is a bias crime.
This is outrageous.
The exact word was raghead collaborator, I believe.
Whatever.
That's what we're talking about here.
This is a bias crime.
Is it a bias crime if it's not directed at the person
himself?
It's a racist term.
It is a racist term and it means that he has
targeted somebody.
It's racial profiling.
He has targeted somebody
as a member
of an ethnic group.
Were you arrested because you're a member of an ethnic group?
I don't believe that was part of this.
I think
if he was
of a particular ethnic group and that was why
they arrested him, yes, I would agree
with you there, but I think what we're seeing here
is just some ignorant officer
making racist remarks to somebody.
That makes it a bias crime.
The fact that he believed that he was dealing with
someone from a particular ethnic group, whether that person
was or was not, is not the issue.
What he believed is the point.
They were not saying he was one of those
members of that ethnic group.
They were referring to that ethnic group in general.
Wait a minute. What did they say to him exactly?
They called him a raghead collaborator.
In other words, he collaborates
with... I can't believe I'm using these words on air.
That's what the
police officers were trying to convey, that he collaborates
with ragheads.
Isn't that a bias crime?
Against a foreign nationality.
When you believe somebody of associating with a certain ethnic group,
isn't it the same as calling them a member of that group?
I don't think so.
I think if somebody refers to you
as an ethnic group
that you are not, I don't think you can say
that you're that ethnic group being
biased. I don't know.
Either way, it's reprehensible.
I have a feeling it is. I'd like to hear
a really serious legal opinion
from Civil Liberties Union on this.
My feeling is that this is what we're dealing with.
It's not only
biased and prejudiced
and ignorant CIA people,
but really biased
in terms of the way in which
they're profiling people.
This is racial profiling.
Anybody who associates with people
of a certain ethnic group
are you-know-what lovers.
This is what we're coming down to.
This is what we're dealing with.
To me, it's all the same.
I don't see a differentiation between calling somebody
a member of a group and calling somebody
a collaborator with that group.
Your lawyer may have a different interpretation.
That's what they say about the whole issue.
We'll have to see what they say about that.
Thanks for raising it.
Keep it up. Good luck.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Hi. How are you?
We're OK. We're surviving.
I think you guys are kind of naive about this whole thing.
Under the USA Patriot Act
and the Homeless Security Act,
they've changed the threshold for
search and seizure.
They've changed the definition
of a terrorist, anybody who commits crimes
against the United States.
How do either of those apply here?
Well, I mean,
search and seizure law, they don't need
a court order to search or seize
your property anymore.
Just a suspicion of being a terrorist,
they can seize your property.
So they can basically pick somebody
off the street and take their equipment
and throw them in jail?
Yeah. They can go to your house, bug your house,
without notifying you or getting a court order.
Don't they generally
have to charge you with something at some point?
No. The Patriot Act
and the Homeless Security Agency bill
change all that stuff.
I mean, they don't even need a warrant
to search your property anymore.
Well, how about the denying that they ever did it part?
Is that in there too?
That can be construed as a national security issue.
Denying that they... OK.
You know, I mean,
those two bills
basically change a lot of things.
Well, I agree with you as far as that goes.
Basically, if we take all of that
and accept it, then
what hope is there for any of us
to ever escape this kind of a thing?
We have to get those bills changed.
I mean, it's law at this point.
I mean, it's always too late.
It's law at this point.
I mean, we have to get those bills changed.
You guys were laughing about
this concentration camp.
I was reading a couple of articles about
Bush wanting to set up
detention camps for American citizens
that are declared enemy combatants.
Which means they can be held...
Basically, what it really is
is a presidential order saying
this person is to be held indefinitely
until the president decides
he can be released.
Well, there's another interesting story.
This is actually on CBS, cbsnews.com,
entitled The CIA's License to Kill,
which basically is saying
that the CIA now has the right
under laws secretly signed
by President Bush,
they have the right to kill Americans
without any kind of due process.
In Yemen they did that.
But they apparently
are going to do it more
because they're suspected
of being part of a terrorist group.
Now, look at this case.
This guy from Denver
was suspected by one idiot
of being part of some kind of terrorist group
because he took a picture.
Now, does that mean that the CIA
has a right to fire a missile at him?
Is this the world we're living in now?
That's the way things are now.
But what scares me the most
is this whole presidential thing
with the enemy combatant
where the president can just say
you're an enemy combatant
and you can be locked up
and you just disappear.
They don't have to notify anybody
or anything.
You're held indefinitely
until the president decides
he wants to let you go.
You're thrown in a hole
and they can do whatever they want to you.
The thing is,
terrorists have been tried in public.
McVeigh was tried.
The Pan Am bombers were tried
in public
and convicted.
So basically, when you don't do this,
you're saying the system doesn't work
and you have to change the system.
I think a lot of people don't realize
the law has changed already.
A lot of people think everything is the way
it used to be and it's not.
People are, you know,
like all you guys, it's changed.
It's different now.
We've lost a lot of rights.
And then that whole information awareness thing,
you guys heard about that?
Yeah, total information awareness.
In the Pentagon? That's going to even be worse.
They're talking about
adding voice recognition to that.
We're listening on telephone calls.
The thing is, all these things are realistic.
All these things are happening.
We can either lie back and accept them
or we can fight them.
I think that's part of what we're doing here,
is fighting it.
Let's continue to fight it.
What you say is true.
They can point to a piece of paper and say,
yeah, we have the right to do this.
It doesn't make it right.
I know.
It should be publicly exposed
to what's going on.
It's frightening.
Thanks for the call.
We've got to move on.
We're running out of time.
The law, even if it's been passed,
if it's not constitutional,
it can be
frontally opposed
and made null and void.
Also, I heard about
the news story today morning,
and I haven't heard if it applies
also within the United States.
Can they fire missiles at people
inside the United States?
It's not about missiles.
It's about shooting.
If it applies within the United States,
that's going to turn everybody against them.
They've taken people from inside the United States.
They've taken American citizens from inside the United States
and held them in secret areas.
They haven't killed them yet.
That's the only thing they haven't done.
But now they have the right to,
which is horrible.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening. You're on the air.
I just wanted to follow up
on the previous gentleman's
discussion about the police
being able to come right into your house.
I found something
very interesting.
I found a...
I had a virus on my computer
by the way,
a wireless network within my house.
I followed up on it.
I'm kind of curious.
I found a book
telling me that there's chips
being put inside chips.
There's a thing called a Bluetooth
and also another network
called IEEE 802.11.
Basically, these devices,
whatever they're putting in,
refrigerators, microwaves,
have the ability
to talk to each other
without you even asking.
They will just go out and grab each other
and start talking to each other.
With this capability,
it's possible and very feasible
that they can sit outside your door
and listen to a conversation
on their PC
if they put a card in their PC.
In the interest of time,
we're going to have to cut this short,
but what you're talking about
I should caution them
that while this may sound far-fetched...
I'll give you a book you can laugh at.
I'll give you the name of the book.
It's called How Wireless Works.
The author is Preston Gallala.
G-R-A-L-L-A.
You can laugh at him
because he's writing in black and white.
I'm not laughing because a few years ago
people would be laughing at what was happening now
and saying that could never happen in this country.
What you're saying is certainly something feasible
that could happen in the very near future,
if not being developed already.
I'd like to know more about it.
Everything's in place if they should decide
to take advantage of this technology.
I just wanted to put that on the air.
Thanks for doing so.
Go ahead.
The bug is a bit wrong
for the cause of this show
because the Bluetooth technology
hasn't been implemented
into microwaves.
Like I said, a whole other show.
Let's take one more phone call.
Yeah, hi.
I have a question for the ragged confabulator.
I think
you might have gotten it a little bit wrong.
What's your question?
How old are you?
I'm 31.
Do you have a beard?
No, I don't.
Do you have long hair?
No.
I wanted to make sure this didn't happen to me.
It might happen to you someday in the future.
I have cameras.
Anyone who has cameras and walks around the street
is at risk here.
I'll tell you a true story real quick.
When the World Economic Summit
where all the world leaders were at the UN,
I saw President Clinton go by
and a friend and I
went there
and we wanted to see Castro.
We were waiting around for Castro to come
and the cops said,
you can't stand here, you have to keep moving.
So we walked from one end of the street
and we were penned up to another end of the street
and we were penned up to another end of the street
and we ended up getting jumped by some big guys
who took our identification
and told us that
we couldn't be there anymore
and the street was right there
where I used to live.
Wow.
Okay, alright, get a hold of yourself.
Yeah, I was at the web forum too
and there were a lot of
people around there obviously
and a lot of controls but I actually made it into the hotel
so I can imagine
what they could have charged me with.
Anyway, Mike, I want to thank you so much
for telling your story and for staying on for the whole hour.
We're going to be following up on this
and hopefully helping out in whatever way we can.
Is there anything you'd like
people out there to do?
Well,
what you said, just get the news out.
It's an important story and I think that
it's important for people to hear about
what can happen to them in this country
just for being in the wrong place
at the wrong time.
Taking pictures of the wrong thing.
Or the right thing, you know, who's to say
it's the wrong thing.
Anyone who wants more information on this
or has ways of helping, please email us
oth at 2600.com
We'll be keeping updated
on this story and we'll be in touch
with you, Mike, as well.
Again, thanks so much for
standing up for your rights and for being an inspiration
and we'll hopefully be able
to help and give people better news
in the future.
And that's our show for tonight.
We'll be back again next week
with probably another horror story.
See you then.