Off The Hook - 2003-04-30

[00:00.000 --> 00:03.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: In Senegal, this is Njaga Sek for Free Speech Radio News.
[00:48.040 --> 00:51.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:52.120 --> 00:53.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:53.780 --> 00:55.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:00.590 --> 01:22.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call We couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would But I'd expect the worst I hope that's understood But I'd expect the worst
[01:47.310 --> 01:48.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:48.730 --> 01:49.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: The program is Off the Hook.
[01:50.070 --> 01:53.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for the next hour or so.
[01:53.810 --> 01:54.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Jeff, welcome back.
[01:54.950 --> 01:55.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you.
[01:55.850 --> 01:58.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: How was your, uh, your, whatever, your mysterious disappearance?
[01:59.130 --> 02:00.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: It was, no, I just did a little vacation.
[02:00.830 --> 02:01.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: This week it's Bernie S.
[02:01.830 --> 02:02.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: who's mysteriously disappeared.
[02:03.030 --> 02:03.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, he's not available?
[02:03.870 --> 02:04.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, he's not.
[02:04.690 --> 02:05.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Voicemail.
[02:05.370 --> 02:05.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: I keep calling.
[02:05.810 --> 02:06.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: I didn't know.
[02:06.970 --> 02:08.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it could be Sprint PCS Syndrome.
[02:08.230 --> 02:08.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: You never know.
[02:09.630 --> 02:15.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, yeah, so, um, um, all kinds of fun things have been happening in the last week, uh, with regards to, uh, technology.
[02:15.790 --> 02:17.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to try to explore as much of that as we can.
[02:18.570 --> 02:19.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, Mike, welcome.
[02:19.530 --> 02:21.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Jeff, uh, well, Jeff, I already welcomed you.
[02:21.310 --> 02:21.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[02:21.810 --> 02:23.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: And Jim, of course.
[02:23.370 --> 02:23.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hello.
[02:23.690 --> 02:24.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: How you doing?
[02:24.690 --> 02:26.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, well, um, where shall we start?
[02:26.830 --> 02:27.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's, there's just so much.
[02:29.350 --> 02:31.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, okay.
[02:31.750 --> 02:32.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: You got anything, Jeff?
[02:33.150 --> 02:34.090]  [SPEAKER_16]: Do I have anything?
[02:34.590 --> 02:37.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, he's searching his pockets as we, uh, as we speak.
[02:37.790 --> 02:40.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Some spare change, and, uh...
[02:40.430 --> 02:44.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: A lot of listener feedback, which I'd like to get to, because we, we don't seem to get to that often enough.
[02:45.290 --> 02:46.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, let's, let's, let's get to that.
[02:46.810 --> 02:55.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Some news developments as well, uh, which are always fun, scary, and, uh, and, and, you know, uh, we have an update on the, uh, Mike, uh, Howash case, which we'll get to in, uh, a little while.
[02:57.590 --> 03:00.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, we have, well, let's see.
[03:00.530 --> 03:03.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Actually, I'm going to ask you guys if you have anything, so I'll get my, uh, papers together.
[03:04.670 --> 03:06.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we all know about the DMCA.
[03:06.610 --> 03:07.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, we certainly do.
[03:07.610 --> 03:08.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's about to get worse, Emmanuel.
[03:09.650 --> 03:10.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: How could it possibly get worse?
[03:11.050 --> 03:13.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, the DMCA is the worst possible thing created by man.
[03:14.190 --> 03:14.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well.
[03:14.610 --> 03:20.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, making it illegal to, uh, do all kinds of things with your videotapes and, and, and CDs and DVDs, and, you know.
[03:20.650 --> 03:21.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: How could it get any worse?
[03:21.630 --> 03:31.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you can only do so much on the federal level, so our friends at the Motion Picture Association are going state to state to try to pass even more restrictive laws, state by state by state.
[03:31.810 --> 03:37.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: And somehow, right under our noses, they've already done it in Delaware, Illinois, Michigan, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Wyoming.
[03:38.330 --> 03:39.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not New York.
[03:39.170 --> 03:39.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not New York yet.
[03:40.090 --> 03:40.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[03:40.630 --> 03:45.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, well, now, what's the difference between them doing it state by state and there being a national DMCA?
[03:45.730 --> 03:51.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's hard to even know where to start, but there are a whole new set of restrictions that are about to come down upon us.
[03:51.370 --> 03:52.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: If we don't do something...
[03:52.730 --> 03:54.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is called Super DMCA, right?
[03:54.770 --> 03:58.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: People are calling it Super DMCA or, or the, the state DMCA.
[03:58.450 --> 03:58.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[03:58.650 --> 03:59.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's like SVHS.
[03:59.970 --> 04:01.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: What are, what are they calling it?
[04:02.770 --> 04:05.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, the EFF is calling it Super DMCA.
[04:05.430 --> 04:07.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's the, no, the people who are, who are writing the laws.
[04:07.470 --> 04:07.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[04:07.610 --> 04:10.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: I imagine state by state, the name varies.
[04:10.370 --> 04:10.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[04:10.530 --> 04:12.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is this kind of an extra strength DMCA?
[04:12.830 --> 04:14.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's, it's like, it's like a double dose.
[04:14.910 --> 04:15.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[04:15.370 --> 04:18.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if they don't get you on the federal level, they can get you on the state level, or maybe even both.
[04:18.670 --> 04:19.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: I imagine they'll get you on both.
[04:19.970 --> 04:20.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[04:20.490 --> 04:22.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, but, um...
[04:22.110 --> 04:22.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, one wasn't enough.
[04:23.090 --> 04:27.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: The MPAA has provided a sort of template for all of these states to, uh, to go by.
[04:27.470 --> 04:29.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: And all these states have already passed it somehow.
[04:29.090 --> 04:31.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: This seemed to, to slip through all our fingers.
[04:31.290 --> 04:36.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, and it's already pending in Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Massachusetts, Tennessee, and Texas.
[04:36.550 --> 04:40.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I'm sure it will be introduced in many other places, too, in the coming weeks and months.
[04:40.270 --> 04:41.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, so what are the highlights?
[04:41.350 --> 04:42.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: What are some of the things that, uh...
[04:42.810 --> 04:43.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well...
[04:43.010 --> 04:45.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: ...we can get from Super DMCA that we can't get from regular DMCA?
[04:45.450 --> 05:00.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: The, the real core thing is, is that it says that you cannot attach any sort of communications device to any service provided to you by a company, like cable or telephone or any kind of Internet, without the permission of the company that's providing you the service.
[05:00.690 --> 05:03.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ah, so, like, with a, with a cable company, for instance.
[05:03.890 --> 05:06.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can't put TiVo on your cable without asking your cable company.
[05:07.670 --> 05:08.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wow.
[05:08.370 --> 05:09.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: You couldn't even install a splitter.
[05:10.090 --> 05:10.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[05:10.730 --> 05:11.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Without asking them.
[05:11.510 --> 05:11.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Without asking them.
[05:11.530 --> 05:12.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or having them come and do it for you.
[05:13.630 --> 05:15.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, and, and paying them a, a fee.
[05:15.530 --> 05:15.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: I see.
[05:15.910 --> 05:18.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: No communications device without express authorization of the service provider.
[05:18.910 --> 05:20.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: How about a telephone, an extension telephone?
[05:21.530 --> 05:23.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Theoretically, could you get in trouble for that like you could in the old days?
[05:24.590 --> 05:27.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: You already can, because of, you're supposed to report ringer equivalency, right?
[05:27.930 --> 05:30.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't, I don't think you're supposed to do that anymore, because I don't think there is any ringer equivalency anymore.
[05:31.070 --> 05:31.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, we're over.
[05:31.410 --> 05:39.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you use an Internet phone, you have to tell them that I'm going to use this Internet's phone software on my cable Internet access?
[05:39.190 --> 05:41.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: It seems that communications device pretty much...
[05:41.830 --> 05:44.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, do they define communications device anywhere?
[05:44.510 --> 05:44.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's email.
[05:45.370 --> 05:51.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: The EFF says that communications device is defined in the bill about as broadly as you possibly could.
[05:51.350 --> 05:51.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[05:51.530 --> 05:54.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I have to even wonder if it possibly extends to software.
[05:54.170 --> 05:57.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: I was just going to say, like, email could be a communications device.
[05:57.250 --> 05:58.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Jim, you have a point.
[05:58.230 --> 05:58.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah.
[05:58.370 --> 06:03.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: You say that a TiVo attached to your cable line would be something you'd have to report.
[06:03.750 --> 06:03.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[06:03.970 --> 06:05.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: What about a standard VCR?
[06:06.410 --> 06:09.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Does that include it, or how far does this go?
[06:09.830 --> 06:13.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I mean, I think ultimately it's at the discretion of the cable companies.
[06:14.530 --> 06:14.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, so...
[06:14.810 --> 06:24.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think that probably they will say to you, well, we explicitly authorize you as part of signing up for this service to connect this list of devices, but by default, things will be prohibited.
[06:24.610 --> 06:26.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: But now, we're only talking about cable companies.
[06:26.690 --> 06:29.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: I imagine this law extends to all kinds of entities.
[06:29.090 --> 06:33.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: This extends to any sort of communication service that comes into your home or business.
[06:33.930 --> 06:34.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[06:34.830 --> 06:37.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: So that could include just regular Internet service provider.
[06:37.690 --> 06:41.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: It could include satellite, you know, deliverers, things like that.
[06:41.730 --> 06:43.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: And all sorts of new things that will come in the future.
[06:43.670 --> 06:46.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: There are some other things here, too, that are pretty disturbing.
[06:46.150 --> 06:51.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: It makes it a crime to conceal the origin or destination of any communication via the service provider.
[06:51.830 --> 06:56.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: So if you use a web anonymizer service, that would be illegal.
[06:57.070 --> 06:57.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Really?
[06:57.670 --> 06:58.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: But how would they know?
[06:59.650 --> 07:00.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: They would know.
[07:00.690 --> 07:06.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I mean, if you use a company like Anonymizer, your ISP can see those packets going to anonymizer's computers.
[07:06.890 --> 07:09.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: They don't know what's in them, but they can see that you're anonymizing something.
[07:10.230 --> 07:10.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[07:10.510 --> 07:11.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: What if you just encrypt?
[07:11.650 --> 07:13.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that illegal under this?
[07:13.770 --> 07:17.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think encryption as part of concealing the origin of your communications.
[07:18.350 --> 07:23.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, the origin necessarily isn't... I mean, if it comes from you, but it's encrypted, you know...
[07:23.550 --> 07:27.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I'm not saying that's good, that, you know, we can get away with encryption still.
[07:27.850 --> 07:30.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I'm just trying to figure out what it is these people are after.
[07:31.030 --> 07:34.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: So in other words, you're sending out a request to anonymizer.
[07:34.370 --> 07:36.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's okay, because they can trace it back to you.
[07:36.490 --> 07:41.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: But what you get back to them is not okay, because they don't know where it was originated.
[07:41.210 --> 07:44.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: Dude, that's the whole thing I get back to you.
[07:44.570 --> 07:46.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: I use a dial-up for my Internet connection.
[07:46.950 --> 07:50.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: Does that mean I have to talk to the phone company about having a phone attached to my line?
[07:53.370 --> 07:53.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know...
[07:53.830 --> 07:54.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: We might have to, yeah.
[07:55.010 --> 07:55.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just to be safe.
[07:55.230 --> 07:57.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Here's something that confuses me about this whole thing.
[07:57.890 --> 08:06.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: All of these companies that we sign up with for Internet service and telephone and things like this, most of them provide some set of rules that you agree to when you sign up for it.
[08:07.110 --> 08:10.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's got nothing to do with any specific law other than just contract law.
[08:10.710 --> 08:12.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're agreeing to use the service in a certain way.
[08:13.070 --> 08:14.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: I have DSL at home.
[08:14.350 --> 08:15.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: I can't spam from it.
[08:15.650 --> 08:18.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: I signed up to say that I won't spam from it.
[08:19.170 --> 08:28.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it puzzles me as to why these service providers can't just embody all of this into their contracts with their customers.
[08:29.010 --> 08:34.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the answer is that they could, but that the MPAA doesn't trust them to do it at all.
[08:34.630 --> 08:35.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Who's behind the bills?
[08:35.490 --> 08:36.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it the service providers or the MPAA?
[08:37.090 --> 08:38.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's the MPAA.
[08:38.070 --> 08:38.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[08:38.670 --> 08:42.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I suppose it's because the service providers, people like Verizon, are resisting these sorts of things.
[08:42.790 --> 08:47.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: There was just, of course, that case in Verizon that just ended, not in Verizon's favor.
[08:48.390 --> 08:48.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[08:49.090 --> 09:03.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Verizon, we haven't mentioned this case, they have been told by a federal court that they have to reveal the names of people that have, what specifically, that have been using a particular service or just their users?
[09:03.250 --> 09:08.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: It started out with one person who was sharing something like 600 MP3s via their Verizon DSL connection.
[09:09.130 --> 09:12.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the record industry wanted to know the name of this person.
[09:13.250 --> 09:17.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: And Verizon said, hey, those communications are just going over our circuits.
[09:17.450 --> 09:20.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: We really don't have anything to say to you.
[09:20.410 --> 09:20.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[09:21.670 --> 09:22.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: And quite rightly, too.
[09:23.050 --> 09:23.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[09:23.410 --> 09:26.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the record industry sued and said, no, you have to tell us who they are.
[09:26.950 --> 09:29.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I guess it was just a couple of days ago they won.
[09:30.990 --> 09:32.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Verizon is on our side.
[09:32.510 --> 09:33.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: What a strange world we live in.
[09:33.950 --> 09:34.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Amazing, huh?
[09:34.630 --> 09:37.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I mean, you know, occasionally they do see the light.
[09:37.130 --> 09:42.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Like, you know, when they drop the lawsuit against us for having VerizonReallySucks.com, you know, they realize that was free speech.
[09:42.150 --> 09:49.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe there are some good people in Verizon that understand the importance and the horrible dark evil that could take over if they sign on to the dark side.
[09:49.870 --> 09:51.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: This whole pattern began a long time ago, though.
[09:51.750 --> 09:57.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: I recall when the phone company was going to be held liable for all sorts of phone sex services and things like that.
[09:58.350 --> 09:59.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think it was one of your shows, Emmanuel.
[10:00.670 --> 10:03.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, according to the story I have here, it's a U.S.
[10:03.390 --> 10:06.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: district court last Thursday that ruled for the second time.
[10:06.010 --> 10:11.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Verizon has to give up the identity of an anonymous Internet subscriber accused of swapping music files online.
[10:13.370 --> 10:22.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the judge said Verizon cannot demonstrate that it has a substantial likelihood of prevailing and has not shown that it will be irreparably harmed if a stay pending appeal is not granted.
[10:22.790 --> 10:30.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of course, you know, individuals will be irreparably harmed if that becomes precedent where names can just be given out like that.
[10:30.510 --> 10:44.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the interesting thing, I'm sure a lot of people have heard of this story, too, that what's going on with the whole file-swapping world out there, a world I'm fantastically unfamiliar with, but I'm accused of having intimate knowledge of.
[10:45.830 --> 11:03.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yesterday, I believe it was, the RIA, the Recording Industry of America, sent out a mass instant message, another culture I'm completely, by choice, unfamiliar with, to everybody that I think was trading particular songs or alleged to be trading particular songs.
[11:04.130 --> 11:18.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, the interesting thing about that is that the Recording Industry of America has, on many instances, said that there was no legitimate use for such programs like Kazaa and Grokster, that it was only used for pirating music.
[11:18.570 --> 11:21.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: And here, they just used it to mass message all these people.
[11:21.310 --> 11:22.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: They used the system to do this.
[11:23.110 --> 11:23.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Isn't that spam?
[11:24.030 --> 11:25.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: And aren't there laws in some places?
[11:25.790 --> 11:29.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, there might be, but I don't know how they picked out...
[11:29.450 --> 11:36.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: It must have been a massive amount of work or some kind of a script that was like, you know, verifying particular files were actually being offered and that they were the files in question.
[11:36.950 --> 11:40.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then they took that information, they made some kind of mass...
[11:41.070 --> 11:41.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: Script, yeah.
[11:41.710 --> 11:45.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, and apparently there's nothing to prevent them from doing that.
[11:45.310 --> 11:47.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I imagine there's nothing to prevent anybody else from doing that as well.
[11:48.330 --> 11:50.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, I'm sure all kinds of people are thinking of ways.
[11:50.510 --> 11:52.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: The fact that we don't have so much time on our hands.
[11:52.350 --> 11:54.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I mean, how much time did they spend doing this?
[11:54.590 --> 11:56.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, to send out basically a warning that...
[11:56.750 --> 12:00.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't have the text of what the warning said, but something like, you know, you're...
[12:00.870 --> 12:04.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: It just basically said that it's against the law to steal music.
[12:05.030 --> 12:06.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you're breaking the law, that's illegal.
[12:06.570 --> 12:06.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[12:08.350 --> 12:12.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I guess, you know, that probably put the fear of the Lord into a lot of people, I would imagine.
[12:12.610 --> 12:15.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: People that didn't know that that kind of thing could be said to them.
[12:15.890 --> 12:18.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: And so, it might have had that effect on the average person.
[12:18.650 --> 12:23.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: It also claims that the person who's trading the songs can be, quote-unquote, easily tracked down.
[12:23.890 --> 12:24.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[12:24.830 --> 12:30.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Which, yeah, I imagine is not too hard because, again, I haven't used these systems, but the IP is there someplace, right?
[12:31.090 --> 12:31.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sure.
[12:31.310 --> 12:33.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, with that information...
[12:33.210 --> 12:41.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: The interesting thing is, though, if you were not on your instant messaging service or using your download, even though you may be doing it, let's say, at night, at late, you didn't get that message.
[12:41.530 --> 12:42.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: You didn't get that warning.
[12:42.570 --> 12:42.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: Mm-hmm.
[12:42.810 --> 12:44.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, it was only the people that were on at that time.
[12:45.710 --> 12:53.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's worth noting that their actions in this particular case seem to contradict their claims in the Verizon case.
[12:53.930 --> 13:04.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because, someone noted this somewhere, I read, that, you know, in the Verizon case, they were claiming, you know, there's no way that we can track these people down individually without your help.
[13:04.330 --> 13:11.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: And now, you know, just a week after the federal court judge says, you know what, you can't do it, there they go and do it.
[13:11.670 --> 13:11.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mm-hmm.
[13:12.210 --> 13:12.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: So...
[13:12.650 --> 13:18.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, and they use the system legitimately, and they actually are able to track down users.
[13:18.850 --> 13:21.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not individual users yet, but a bunch of users.
[13:23.030 --> 13:25.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Millions, I think, or a million, at least.
[13:25.750 --> 13:33.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Speaking of tracking down users and surprising them, I'd just like to add something else also here about these new state super DMCAs.
[13:33.730 --> 13:33.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[13:33.890 --> 13:45.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's that the MPAA's model bill that they're sending to these states authorizes a court to order the, quote, remedial modification of any communication or unlawful access device that is in the control of the violator.
[13:46.390 --> 13:46.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wow.
[13:47.010 --> 13:52.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: And maybe remedial modification of the violator themselves in a state prison someplace.
[13:53.670 --> 14:04.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: And so, you know, this harks back to what they were trying to get passed federally and failed to a while back, where they were attempting to get a bill passed so that they could hack people's computers.
[14:04.610 --> 14:05.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[14:05.050 --> 14:05.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: At home.
[14:06.530 --> 14:08.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, of course, there was a healthy backlash against that.
[14:08.770 --> 14:10.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: But now it seems that they're trying again with slightly different language.
[14:11.190 --> 14:21.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I guess what they're saying is that they want to be able to modify one of these communications devices that's not authorized to disable it or to make it lawful again, to bring it back to the light side.
[14:21.970 --> 14:25.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, they're also doing this on a different playing field.
[14:25.370 --> 14:26.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're going to the states.
[14:26.350 --> 14:30.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have to wonder why they've chosen this particular approach.
[14:30.390 --> 14:31.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: The smaller battles.
[14:32.090 --> 14:33.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, but many more of them.
[14:33.430 --> 14:33.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: Sure.
[14:33.790 --> 14:34.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: Fifty of them.
[14:34.970 --> 14:36.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: Bite-sized pieces.
[14:36.150 --> 14:36.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: Let's put it that way.
[14:36.830 --> 14:37.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: How's that?
[14:37.530 --> 14:37.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: Mm-hmm.
[14:37.850 --> 14:38.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: Sounds good.
[14:38.470 --> 14:43.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, now, okay, sir, if the laws that are there now, do you have those states again?
[14:43.830 --> 14:45.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: The states that these are actually...
[14:46.530 --> 14:47.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's my question.
[14:47.470 --> 14:49.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are they passed in these states?
[14:49.970 --> 14:51.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are they about to be signed?
[14:51.050 --> 14:51.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Have they been signed?
[14:52.190 --> 14:53.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's been passed in six states already.
[14:54.590 --> 14:56.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: So that means it's already law in these states.
[14:56.850 --> 14:57.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's already law in these states.
[14:57.430 --> 14:58.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's been signed by everybody.
[14:59.270 --> 14:59.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[15:00.350 --> 15:01.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: They have been enacted.
[15:01.610 --> 15:03.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what are the states?
[15:03.450 --> 15:08.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: The laws where it's already been enacted are Delaware, Illinois, Michigan, Oregon, Pennsylvania, and Wyoming.
[15:09.250 --> 15:15.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, so if listeners are in those particular states, let us know what you've heard about it from your particular local states because that's...
[15:16.950 --> 15:18.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: You might have heard something that we did not hear.
[15:18.770 --> 15:22.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is, of course, a developing story.
[15:22.910 --> 15:32.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: And also, if you're in one of the states where it's in, you know, where it's still pending, perhaps even more importantly right now, you can potentially still take some action to stop it in your state.
[15:32.270 --> 15:32.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.
[15:33.030 --> 15:37.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Those states, again, being Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Massachusetts, Tennessee, and Texas.
[15:38.290 --> 15:40.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, well, it sounds like it's spreading like a virus.
[15:41.250 --> 15:42.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll have to...
[15:42.130 --> 15:45.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there's more information, of course, on the EFF website.
[15:45.330 --> 15:46.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: EFF.org.
[15:46.450 --> 15:49.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you search for DMCA on the main page, you should find it pretty quickly.
[15:49.550 --> 15:52.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Look for Super DMCA, and you'll find all kinds of new stuff.
[15:54.030 --> 16:01.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: There was also, in addition to the, to that silly little warning that went out yesterday, did anybody hear the Madonna thing?
[16:01.970 --> 16:02.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've heard about this.
[16:03.110 --> 16:03.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[16:04.650 --> 16:05.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: What exactly happened?
[16:06.010 --> 16:07.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think we can play it on the air, though.
[16:07.770 --> 16:10.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, well, we will play it on the air, but we'll have to beep it a few times.
[16:11.190 --> 16:11.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: If someone...
[16:11.590 --> 16:12.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you have a copy?
[16:12.430 --> 16:14.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, but this is what I heard happened.
[16:14.110 --> 16:21.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: Apparently, Madonna had hacked into, or...
[16:21.910 --> 16:23.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Madonna hacked into something?
[16:23.450 --> 16:40.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Some person on her behalf had presented a site serving up files of her songs, which started off innocuously enough, but then went into a diatribe of her foul-mouthedly telling people that what they were doing was wrong, and this, that, and the other thing.
[16:40.970 --> 16:42.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Was this material sent to children?
[16:43.190 --> 16:45.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know, but I think it was presented in a file.
[16:45.430 --> 16:48.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because obscene language being sent to children is probably a violation of all kinds of statutes.
[16:48.670 --> 16:48.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think it was sent.
[16:48.710 --> 16:50.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was there, and you could go out and get it.
[16:50.250 --> 16:51.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, so they had to go and get this.
[16:51.530 --> 16:55.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right, and then what I heard is that her official website was hacked.
[16:56.370 --> 17:10.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: Somebody put up all the songs from her latest album, and that lasted a few hours, and about 600 people went there, got it, and then their people realized, whoops, somebody is using our own stuff against us.
[17:10.190 --> 17:12.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: So these people basically thought they were downloading a Madonna song.
[17:12.270 --> 17:15.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Instead, they heard Madonna screaming at them, what the F do you think you're doing?
[17:15.550 --> 17:16.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Pretty much like that, yes.
[17:16.450 --> 17:18.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: And launching into a diatribe against so-called piracy.
[17:20.030 --> 17:21.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I guess it's kind of funny.
[17:21.790 --> 17:22.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, it's, you know...
[17:22.510 --> 17:23.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: The creative part, I think, is that...
[17:23.870 --> 17:24.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: I would buy that album.
[17:25.150 --> 17:26.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's the only Madonna album I would buy.
[17:26.770 --> 17:28.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Except for the fact that that's not on an album.
[17:28.490 --> 17:29.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a shame.
[17:29.230 --> 17:30.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, and...
[17:30.090 --> 17:30.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: It should be.
[17:31.110 --> 17:36.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, yeah, but the thing is, this is a track that apparently she wants to be distributed, so I guess it will be distributed.
[17:36.450 --> 17:37.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: It'll show up as samples everywhere.
[17:37.670 --> 17:44.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: The creative part is the people that have taken this, what the F do you think you're doing, and remixed it in various ways.
[17:46.670 --> 17:48.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's really amusing.
[17:48.430 --> 17:55.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: I recommend to listeners who aren't offended by the F word to go find these remixes.
[17:55.530 --> 17:57.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's a major theme of this piece.
[17:57.470 --> 17:57.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[17:58.090 --> 17:58.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: You really...
[17:58.550 --> 17:59.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: We really...
[17:59.170 --> 18:02.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'd spend the whole time keeping it up and down, but...
[18:02.170 --> 18:03.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Leo, while you're jumping up and down, you got something?
[18:03.790 --> 18:05.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: I was going to say that it's a...
[18:05.730 --> 18:06.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: It wasn't a website.
[18:06.770 --> 18:08.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was like Kazan Morpheus.
[18:09.050 --> 18:17.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's the same tactic that the RIA uses, which is they put out a bunch of low-quality versions of songs, and that was like the same move.
[18:17.830 --> 18:21.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, to get the music, yeah, but her website was what was hacked, right?
[18:21.450 --> 18:28.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I'm saying that Hirose was hacked, and in response to her putting out a bunch of fake songs.
[18:29.050 --> 18:30.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, that's pretty much...
[18:30.450 --> 18:35.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: I should add, too, that the website, the title of the hacked website was, This is what the F I think I'm doing.
[18:37.990 --> 18:39.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: You see, that's communication.
[18:39.790 --> 18:41.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's, you know, a little back and forth there.
[18:42.710 --> 18:44.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, it's interesting times.
[18:44.670 --> 18:46.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, I love the debate.
[18:46.690 --> 18:51.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't like the legislation and the imposing of draconian laws to...
[18:51.450 --> 18:52.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: to intimidate people.
[18:53.410 --> 18:54.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a frightening thing.
[18:54.790 --> 18:58.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: It needs to be talked about and battled in whatever way possible.
[19:00.810 --> 19:02.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, we have...
[19:02.410 --> 19:03.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Any more information on this?
[19:04.350 --> 19:05.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're okay for now on this?
[19:05.610 --> 19:08.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, well, I'm sure we'll take calls about it in a few minutes.
[19:08.570 --> 19:10.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mike Hawash, he was indicted, finally?
[19:11.290 --> 19:12.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: He was indicted on Monday.
[19:12.610 --> 19:16.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, if you recall, a couple of weeks ago, we spoke to the...
[19:16.210 --> 19:20.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: I guess one of the leaders of his website, freemykawash.org.
[19:20.470 --> 19:23.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's M-I-K-E-H-A-W-A-S-H.
[19:24.950 --> 19:36.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, this is somebody, an Intel, former Intel employee, who had been taken into federal custody and nobody was really told why.
[19:37.390 --> 19:39.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, I guess the information is coming out.
[19:39.630 --> 19:40.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[19:40.330 --> 19:42.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, he was being held as a material witness.
[19:43.910 --> 19:47.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they were going to reconsider that status, apparently.
[19:47.610 --> 20:02.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: They decided instead to arraign him on charges of conspiracy to levy war against the United States, conspiracy to provide material support and resources to al-Qaeda, and conspiracy to contribute services to al-Qaeda and the Taliban.
[20:04.050 --> 20:09.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, they produced this kind of 41-page complaint.
[20:11.650 --> 20:16.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have no idea, obviously, if he's actually innocent or guilty or whatever.
[20:16.890 --> 20:24.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's, in a way, nice to see that he's actually been charged with something, which he can maybe defend himself against, you know, or not.
[20:25.430 --> 20:28.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, the parts I saw said that he had gone to China.
[20:29.110 --> 20:29.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[20:29.970 --> 20:30.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's it.
[20:31.030 --> 20:35.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: He never... he was supposed to... he was planning to go to Afghanistan, they say, but he never did.
[20:35.750 --> 20:36.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: He just went to China.
[20:37.870 --> 20:41.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's this 40-page document, which I actually read most of last night.
[20:41.890 --> 20:41.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[20:42.030 --> 20:45.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: And more than half of it is not about him.
[20:45.950 --> 20:46.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[20:46.230 --> 20:50.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's about other people who, like, also considered going to Afghanistan but didn't make it.
[20:50.510 --> 20:52.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, is considering going to Afghanistan, though, a crime?
[20:53.030 --> 20:53.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Apparently.
[20:59.370 --> 21:02.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: He was charged with waging war against the United States as a result of that.
[21:02.210 --> 21:05.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: I just want to read some of the more outrageous things in this.
[21:06.710 --> 21:14.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Some of the evidence against him is that before he went to China, he purchased a parka and a backpack at REI.
[21:14.290 --> 21:15.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, I didn't know about that.
[21:15.610 --> 21:16.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: There you go.
[21:18.890 --> 21:33.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, someone in the Grail Apartments in Portland, Oregon, provided to the Portland Division of the FBI a plastic grocery bag containing miscellaneous paperwork, some in Arabic, that he or she discovered earlier that week in the recycling bin at the apartment complex.
[21:34.790 --> 21:35.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[21:35.510 --> 21:36.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, I wasn't aware of that either.
[21:36.950 --> 21:38.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Writing in Arabic, you say?
[21:38.430 --> 21:39.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Writing in Arabic.
[21:39.290 --> 21:40.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was a plastic bag.
[21:40.510 --> 21:41.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: A plastic bag.
[21:41.430 --> 21:41.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[21:41.790 --> 21:44.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: They could use us to suffocate people if the Arabic writing doesn't work.
[21:46.110 --> 21:46.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe.
[21:46.790 --> 21:46.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[21:47.370 --> 21:49.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, the fact that people...
[21:49.970 --> 21:55.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, if I saw Arabic writing in my recycle bin, I wouldn't think to turn it into the FBI.
[21:55.690 --> 21:57.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, that's because you're not alert.
[21:57.770 --> 21:59.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you even know what color it is?
[22:00.370 --> 22:01.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Arabic writing?
[22:01.270 --> 22:01.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: No.
[22:01.850 --> 22:03.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: The color of the country right now.
[22:03.710 --> 22:04.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's yellow minus minus.
[22:05.030 --> 22:05.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yellow.
[22:05.530 --> 22:06.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, we're not yellow minus minus.
[22:06.670 --> 22:06.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's yellow.
[22:07.090 --> 22:07.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just regular yellow.
[22:08.050 --> 22:08.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're yellow.
[22:08.370 --> 22:09.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you know the color of your recycling bin?
[22:09.570 --> 22:10.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yellow light.
[22:10.610 --> 22:10.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[22:11.290 --> 22:13.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, among the other...
[22:13.170 --> 22:13.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's more?
[22:14.050 --> 22:14.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's more evidence.
[22:14.750 --> 22:15.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, boy.
[22:15.350 --> 22:16.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: This guy's really going away, isn't he?
[22:17.030 --> 22:30.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: On October 20th, 2001, the FBI Portland Division received a telephone call from a second neighbor of Hawash in Hillsborough, Oregon, concerning, um, Meher Mofid Hawash, which I guess is his real name.
[22:30.350 --> 22:30.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[22:30.570 --> 22:32.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mike is his nickname.
[22:32.390 --> 22:38.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: The caller described Hawash as a, quote, Palestinian Muslim who works at Intel and is married with the three children, unquote.
[22:39.150 --> 22:47.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: The caller wanted to advise the FBI that Hawash was spending more time at home following September 11th, 2001, and that Hawash was not as friendly as usual.
[22:48.410 --> 22:49.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, gee, gee.
[22:49.750 --> 22:52.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: Your co-religionists blow up a building.
[22:52.490 --> 22:55.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're feeling guilty and upset about it.
[22:55.710 --> 22:59.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: People are probably harassing you on the street, so you don't want to go out too much.
[23:00.410 --> 23:02.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: So you're unfriendly and staying at home.
[23:02.670 --> 23:03.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, my goodness.
[23:03.910 --> 23:17.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: During, during a follow-up interview with the second neighbor, uh, he told investigators that following a visit by Hawash's mother in the spring of 2001, Hawash changed his attire from, quote, Western clothing to, quote, Eastern clothing, grew a beard,
[23:17.530 --> 23:19.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: and distanced himself from his neighbors.
[23:20.150 --> 23:25.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: The second neighbor observed more vehicles driven by other Middle Eastern males coming and going from the residence.
[23:25.850 --> 23:27.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: The second neighbor further believed...
[23:27.470 --> 23:29.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: How do you observe vehicles being driven by Middle Eastern males?
[23:29.570 --> 23:30.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean...
[23:30.210 --> 23:33.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Further believe that Hawash began attending mosque on a regular basis.
[23:33.970 --> 23:38.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Your mother comes and berates you because, son, you're not the same boy I used to know.
[23:39.650 --> 23:43.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: You go back, you listen to her, and then they beat you over the head with it.
[23:43.270 --> 23:43.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: I love it.
[23:43.870 --> 23:45.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mike, I mean, come on.
[23:45.690 --> 23:48.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not blaming you for this, but, but this is it?
[23:48.490 --> 23:50.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is the indictment against this guy?
[23:50.150 --> 23:51.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: That he's not being friendly?
[23:51.410 --> 23:53.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: That he's, like, not talking to his neighbors?
[23:53.230 --> 23:56.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: That he dresses in Eastern garb and goes to a mosque?
[23:56.370 --> 23:57.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: That and he went to China.
[23:59.570 --> 24:01.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: He intended to go to Afghanistan and wage war against the United States.
[24:02.350 --> 24:03.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, allegedly go to Afghanistan.
[24:03.310 --> 24:04.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: He claims other reasons.
[24:04.910 --> 24:06.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: The China trip was business, though, wasn't it?
[24:06.610 --> 24:08.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: They had the branch of Intel over in China.
[24:08.690 --> 24:09.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, that's what he's claiming.
[24:09.790 --> 24:11.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: It wasn't Intel business.
[24:11.230 --> 24:11.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I want to say now...
[24:11.970 --> 24:14.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Actually, I might have been wrong when I said he was a...
[24:14.110 --> 24:16.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is he a current employee or a former employee?
[24:16.530 --> 24:18.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: Former employee, and I was a consultant.
[24:18.530 --> 24:23.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I was a consultant, so it wasn't Intel that had business in China, but supposedly he did.
[24:23.590 --> 24:28.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I believe the authorities said that they saw no phone calls to China to back that up.
[24:28.210 --> 24:30.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: But did they see any phone calls to Afghanistan to back what they say up?
[24:31.330 --> 24:32.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: They don't offer any.
[24:33.050 --> 24:34.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't feel like if they've had any evidence...
[24:34.630 --> 24:38.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: If they had any real evidence, I feel like they would put that in there rather than the REI gloves.
[24:38.810 --> 24:42.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it too late for me to say I'm considering going to Afghanistan, or are they now, like, a state?
[24:43.430 --> 24:44.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, can I...
[24:44.310 --> 24:45.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, no, no, no.
[24:45.470 --> 24:48.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I'm considering it because I consider everything.
[24:48.730 --> 24:50.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm considering going to North Korea, too.
[24:50.250 --> 24:50.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: I have a thought.
[24:50.850 --> 24:51.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm considering it, yes.
[24:52.190 --> 24:57.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: Before we invaded Afghanistan, didn't the United States Army consider going to Afghanistan?
[24:57.750 --> 25:00.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and, you know, I think Bush considered it, too.
[25:00.030 --> 25:01.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're sometimes unfriendly.
[25:02.270 --> 25:09.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, and to head things off, let me just say, I've been unfriendly all my life, but I'm not even considering leaving the city for the next four years and 11 months.
[25:09.570 --> 25:10.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: But you've already been charged with a crime.
[25:10.690 --> 25:11.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that's another story.
[25:11.830 --> 25:13.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was based on unfriendliness, though, wasn't it?
[25:13.670 --> 25:14.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's another story.
[25:14.790 --> 25:14.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[25:16.210 --> 25:17.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, speaking of the transit authority...
[25:17.790 --> 25:18.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, no.
[25:18.250 --> 25:19.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: ...nice little segue here.
[25:21.070 --> 25:22.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I don't want to spend too much time on this.
[25:22.730 --> 25:25.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: The fare hike is supposed to go into effect next week.
[25:25.510 --> 25:25.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: This weekend.
[25:26.330 --> 25:27.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it this weekend?
[25:27.390 --> 25:28.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: What would it be?
[25:28.150 --> 25:29.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Saturday night into Sunday, I believe?
[25:29.650 --> 25:29.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[25:29.970 --> 25:30.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[25:31.090 --> 25:40.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, supposedly, the new rip-off card, which is what they refer to here, formerly known as the Fun Pass, they're going from $4 to $7.
[25:40.510 --> 25:40.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[25:41.110 --> 25:56.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we brushed the subject a few weeks ago as to whether or not, if you got a Fun Pass now, if it would work after the fare increase, and therefore you'd save quite a bit of money, they say that there's going to be a grace period that will end on May 5th.
[25:56.870 --> 25:57.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[25:58.090 --> 26:01.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where the card will no longer work and you'll have to send it in and get money in exchange.
[26:02.350 --> 26:02.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: I have a test.
[26:03.170 --> 26:04.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I bought a card.
[26:04.510 --> 26:04.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: I get to.
[26:04.890 --> 26:05.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is my spare.
[26:05.610 --> 26:06.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm saving it until next week.
[26:07.070 --> 26:09.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because I think this might just be a load of crap.
[26:09.670 --> 26:13.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, they might just be saying this to people so that they don't hoard the cards.
[26:13.370 --> 26:19.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not saying you should go out and hoard the cards and maybe they'll all work and you'll have, like, the same rate for however long as you buy cards.
[26:20.570 --> 26:21.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it's possible.
[26:21.570 --> 26:26.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's possible that they don't have a way of renumbering all the cards.
[26:26.710 --> 26:27.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[26:27.190 --> 26:28.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: But we're going to try this experiment.
[26:28.950 --> 26:29.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, Jeff, you have a card?
[26:29.830 --> 26:31.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: I have one, and I'll use it in two weeks.
[26:31.990 --> 26:32.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[26:32.470 --> 26:33.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: Just to be safe.
[26:33.350 --> 26:33.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[26:33.610 --> 26:34.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because next week is what?
[26:35.050 --> 26:36.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's the 7th, right?
[26:36.250 --> 26:36.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[26:36.630 --> 26:36.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[26:37.790 --> 26:39.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Actually, we're not going to be on in two weeks.
[26:39.910 --> 26:41.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the fundraiser.
[26:41.450 --> 26:41.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it really?
[26:41.950 --> 26:44.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, and then three weeks we're going to have our big fundraiser.
[26:44.310 --> 26:44.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[26:44.710 --> 26:45.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Three weeks, then.
[26:45.490 --> 26:45.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Three weeks.
[26:46.070 --> 26:46.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know what?
[26:46.590 --> 26:48.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think I'll just try it next week.
[26:48.470 --> 26:50.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: And you can try it several weeks after that.
[26:50.490 --> 26:50.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[26:50.710 --> 26:51.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: That way we'll have something.
[26:52.010 --> 26:54.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: We should put it on the 2600 website afterwards.
[26:54.330 --> 26:58.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's if the fair increase goes into effect because it turns out the MTA was cooking the books or something, Jim?
[26:58.190 --> 26:58.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[26:58.610 --> 26:58.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[26:59.210 --> 27:03.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: They hit an amazing $500 million or so.
[27:03.850 --> 27:05.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: They had two sets of books.
[27:05.490 --> 27:07.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: One for the public and one for themselves, right?
[27:07.630 --> 27:12.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, you know, I watch TV sometimes, and whenever they do that on a TV show, it means somebody's up to something.
[27:13.010 --> 27:18.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: In order to justify the fair increase and in order to tell the union that they could only get a tiny bit.
[27:19.770 --> 27:22.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: But there is some good news in the Transit Authority.
[27:22.130 --> 27:26.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're going to build an extension between J Street and Lawrence Street so you can transfer there.
[27:26.930 --> 27:31.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they're buying up buildings to the west of the 7 line on 42nd Street.
[27:32.010 --> 27:37.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: So there's some evidence that they're planning to eventually extend the 7 towards the Javits Convention.
[27:37.330 --> 27:38.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: What about the 2nd Avenue Subway?
[27:38.770 --> 27:40.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what about an extension into the East Village?
[27:40.970 --> 27:44.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: The 2nd Avenue Subway seems to be on track.
[27:44.230 --> 27:45.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's still early, sadly enough.
[27:46.010 --> 27:47.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's completely useless to the village.
[27:47.330 --> 27:49.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: It skips everything there and doesn't go into the East Village.
[27:49.530 --> 27:50.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't understand the point of it.
[27:50.590 --> 28:07.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Also, there's another thing we should try out with the unlimited ride measure cards which is the 30-day express bus measure card will be discontinued and its grace period is until June 12th.
[28:07.730 --> 28:07.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[28:08.030 --> 28:08.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: So what are you suggesting?
[28:09.130 --> 28:15.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm wondering, what if you buy it and then start using it after June 12th because it's not going to be in the system anymore?
[28:15.310 --> 28:16.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, that's an interesting thought.
[28:16.470 --> 28:17.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're thrown off the bus, right?
[28:17.950 --> 28:20.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: A, that's an interesting thought and B, that's $120.
[28:22.270 --> 28:23.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, probably.
[28:23.610 --> 28:24.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: If so many can afford it, they can try it out.
[28:24.910 --> 28:25.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, give it a try, Leo.
[28:26.130 --> 28:27.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we welcome you.
[28:27.490 --> 28:28.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: They borrow $120.
[28:28.990 --> 28:29.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Possibly...
[28:29.990 --> 28:33.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: If anybody would like to send the money to Leo so he can experiment on your behalf.
[28:33.930 --> 28:34.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, don't do that.
[28:34.950 --> 28:38.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just wait for the fundraiser in a few weeks and we'll use the money for more important things here at the station.
[28:39.690 --> 28:41.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're taking phone calls 212-209-2900.
[28:42.090 --> 28:44.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's go through a couple of letters quickly.
[28:44.670 --> 28:46.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just found this show and I love it.
[28:46.090 --> 28:50.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Please continue with the commentary on current events from MJ in St. Louis.
[28:50.810 --> 28:56.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Got a lot of mail in response to the critiques for us talking about what's going on in front of us.
[28:58.130 --> 29:01.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Dear Off the Hook, I've been listening to your show, reading your magazine for quite some time now.
[29:02.070 --> 29:09.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: I thought I'd finally send you guys an email expressing my thanks for offering alternative viewpoints readily available for anyone inclined not to blindly accept what they're told.
[29:09.690 --> 29:17.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks for providing people with a means that allows them to balance the warmongering with which mass media attempts to wash away good sense on every nightly news update.
[29:17.550 --> 29:22.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's great to hear someone over a broadcast medium that shares a lot of my views.
[29:22.430 --> 29:33.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's James from Ottawa who adds, by the way, your April Fool's joke, while obviously a joke even at the time, talking about our webpage, provided me with a deep sense of dread and urgency for the future.
[29:33.690 --> 29:38.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hopefully many others took the lesson to heart and perhaps we will have many fewer totalitarians in the future.
[29:40.010 --> 29:43.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: And if you'd like to see that webpage, I think we have it archived on the site.
[29:43.310 --> 29:52.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you go to the off-the-wall section of 2600.com, you'll see the April 1st show there has a link to that website.
[29:52.530 --> 29:55.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'm sorry if you were instrumental in getting that going.
[29:55.830 --> 29:57.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: There are things we know that we know.
[29:57.630 --> 29:58.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[29:58.510 --> 29:59.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Donald Rumsfeld actually said that, didn't he?
[29:59.950 --> 30:00.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: What was the full quote?
[30:01.270 --> 30:02.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: There are things we know that we know.
[30:03.190 --> 30:05.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: There are things we know that we don't know.
[30:06.250 --> 30:09.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: But there are things we don't know that we don't know.
[30:09.330 --> 30:14.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: And every year, we find out a few more of those unknown unknowns.
[30:14.890 --> 30:17.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you think he was like throwing down the gauntlet to George W.
[30:17.430 --> 30:19.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bush saying, you know, can you say this without stumbling through it?
[30:20.930 --> 30:22.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, it sounds like something George W.
[30:22.690 --> 30:25.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bush would say, but I think if you analyze it, it actually makes sense.
[30:25.770 --> 30:30.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was going to say the scariest thing about it is if you think about it, it does make sense.
[30:30.150 --> 30:33.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, and, you know, Rumsfeld is the guy to be scared of.
[30:33.590 --> 30:34.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: He really is.
[30:34.410 --> 30:35.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, Ashcroft, too.
[30:35.550 --> 30:38.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a number of people in that part of the world.
[30:38.530 --> 30:39.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not scared of Tom Ridge.
[30:39.710 --> 30:40.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know if you are.
[30:40.530 --> 30:41.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: He doesn't scare me.
[30:41.370 --> 30:41.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: He makes me laugh.
[30:42.410 --> 30:43.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tom Ridge is a warm, cuddly guy.
[30:44.250 --> 30:48.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: He's like, you know, he's the tragic clown, I guess.
[30:48.170 --> 30:49.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was going to say, he's like your uncle.
[30:49.650 --> 30:50.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: He means well.
[30:50.710 --> 30:52.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: He doesn't know that he's in with these guys.
[30:53.170 --> 30:55.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think he does kind of know.
[30:55.350 --> 30:56.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, yeah, but you know what I mean.
[30:57.490 --> 30:58.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know what I know.
[30:58.550 --> 31:00.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, all right.
[31:00.770 --> 31:02.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sounds like another Rumsfeld quote.
[31:03.510 --> 31:04.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we only knew what he knew.
[31:05.670 --> 31:07.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think off the hook and off the wall are great.
[31:07.990 --> 31:10.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: I recently heard the Saddam rap song you played.
[31:10.690 --> 31:11.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: We did that last week.
[31:12.030 --> 31:12.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, yeah.
[31:12.730 --> 31:21.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I had mixed feelings of both thinking it was hilarious and also bewilderment as to why the CIA would take the time to make such a thing.
[31:22.030 --> 31:23.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anyway, I also have a radio show.
[31:23.530 --> 31:25.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: I would like to play the song, explain where it came from.
[31:26.290 --> 31:31.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: I understand if you deny my request, but I was wondering where it is you got the song from because I would like to get it.
[31:31.450 --> 31:35.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's not our song, so we can't really deny you the right.
[31:36.390 --> 31:37.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where did we get it?
[31:37.130 --> 31:37.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: BBC?
[31:37.730 --> 31:38.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is that where we found it?
[31:38.450 --> 31:38.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: The BBC.
[31:39.150 --> 31:39.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think I...
[31:40.030 --> 31:43.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: People who emailed me, I think, got sent the URL.
[31:43.590 --> 31:47.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, so if you don't have that URL, email us, OTH at 2600.com.
[31:47.570 --> 31:52.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll happily send you that information and you don't have to worry about us denying you permission for anything like that.
[31:52.690 --> 31:54.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: I should mention that Bernie S.
[31:54.330 --> 31:58.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: told us by email, he's not on the air this week, that Radio Tickrid is gone.
[31:59.270 --> 32:01.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: In fact, I do have something about that.
[32:01.630 --> 32:03.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me see if I can track that down.
[32:03.550 --> 32:08.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's been replaced with a different service, with a different name.
[32:09.110 --> 32:12.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: I wasn't able to figure out if there's any actual differences besides the name.
[32:12.750 --> 32:15.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's now called Radio Sumer, S-U-M-E-R.
[32:15.470 --> 32:16.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's still the CIA.
[32:17.690 --> 32:23.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Shortwave and, according to Bernie S., shortwave and clandestine radio broadcasts continue to be an excellent info source about the U.S.
[32:23.810 --> 32:26.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: invasion and occupation of Iraq.
[32:28.130 --> 32:38.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: But basically, yeah, a station identifying itself as Radio Sumer was heard in place of Radio Tickrid from 1910 to 2100 Greenwich on April 21st.
[32:38.430 --> 32:44.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Radio Tickrid could not be traced, although it had been heard by BBC monitoring the previous day on April 20th.
[32:44.210 --> 32:52.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: The name Sumer is the ancient name for the land and early civilization of the southern region of what is now Iraq between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.
[32:53.350 --> 32:57.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: The location of the studios and transmitters of Radio Sumer and Radio Tickrid is unknown.
[32:58.110 --> 33:03.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Radio Tickrid was named after the city of Saddam Hussein's birth, which was also a stronghold of the former regime.
[33:03.610 --> 33:13.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was first heard by BBC monitoring on February 7th and had changed its line from pro-Saddam to anti-Saddam by February 15th.
[33:14.210 --> 33:15.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Which is kind of interesting.
[33:15.730 --> 33:20.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: The programming of Radio Sumer was in the same style as Radio Tickrid and would appear to be a direct replacement.
[33:20.970 --> 33:24.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: It included a satirical song in a rap style which had previously been aired on Radio Tickrid.
[33:24.970 --> 33:28.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: So if you're looking for that song, they're still airing it on that frequency.
[33:28.970 --> 33:40.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: In addition to the medium wave transmission, which you won't be able to get here, it's at 1584 kilohertz, Radio Tickrid had recently been traced on a U-Tel-Sat hot bird satellite at 13 degrees east.
[33:40.870 --> 33:44.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that signal was replaced by Radio Sumer on April 21st.
[33:46.230 --> 33:52.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: So basically, they even have a summary of the first broadcast of Radio Sumer April 21st, 1910, Greenwich time.
[33:53.290 --> 33:55.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: It starts with a song, then an announcement.
[33:55.410 --> 33:58.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Dear listeners, we salute you from Sumer Radio and now the News Bulletin.
[33:59.750 --> 34:07.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Saddam's son-in-law surrenders to coalition forces, former Iraqi higher education scientific research, arrested by U.S.
[34:07.950 --> 34:07.950]  troops.
[34:08.530 --> 34:11.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: General Jay Garner makes first tour of Baghdad.
[34:11.830 --> 34:18.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: United States says it does not recognize Baghdad's civilian authority, set up by Moussin al-Zabadi.
[34:19.290 --> 34:24.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: A bunch of other news stories, more songs, a repeat of the Saddam rap song.
[34:24.810 --> 34:25.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: They played that a few times, actually.
[34:26.550 --> 34:31.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: So that's the kind of programming you can get out of there if you're lucky enough to be listening to that particular station.
[34:32.030 --> 34:39.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: Speaking of that kind of thing, even though I was away last week, it was fun to be able to turn on WBCQ and catch the program while I was away.
[34:39.530 --> 34:44.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, in fact, we are simulcast on that and other stations from what I hear.
[34:44.610 --> 34:52.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: But if you listen to 7415 kilohertz, you'll hear us at this time live, which is kind of cool.
[34:52.690 --> 34:54.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: And let me just interject.
[34:54.110 --> 34:59.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have one more news update about Iraq from our friend Aaron McGruder in Boondocks.
[34:59.850 --> 35:00.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: What this means...
[35:00.830 --> 35:01.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: Keynote speaker at H2K2.
[35:02.010 --> 35:02.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[35:02.670 --> 35:08.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: What this means for the future, the liberation of Iraq, Operation Iraqi Freedom.
[35:09.210 --> 35:12.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: It means, eventually, Iraqi girls gone wild.
[35:14.490 --> 35:15.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you.
[35:15.810 --> 35:16.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, it's his cartoon.
[35:17.890 --> 35:18.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just relaying it.
[35:19.010 --> 35:20.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, this is interesting, too.
[35:20.150 --> 35:21.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Another letter, and then we'll take some phone calls.
[35:21.590 --> 35:22.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's 202-209-2900.
[35:24.290 --> 35:25.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is from Risk Taker up in Canada.
[35:27.010 --> 35:27.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: The...
[35:28.510 --> 35:29.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Although, it comes from a German site.
[35:29.890 --> 35:30.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: I thought he was from Canada.
[35:30.730 --> 35:31.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe I'm wrong.
[35:31.450 --> 35:32.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, no, he's from Germany.
[35:32.430 --> 35:32.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry.
[35:33.190 --> 35:33.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Totally mixed up here.
[35:34.570 --> 35:43.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: The night vision mode of my camcorder sees the infrared LED in a standard TV remote control unit as an extremely bright pulsating light source.
[35:43.450 --> 35:49.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: I suspect the night vision goggles that are intended to be used in cinemas would be similarly susceptible to IR emitters in the audience.
[35:49.890 --> 36:00.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, all that would be needed to do to at least make the job of these people a heck of a lot more difficult is a few people sitting in the audience with flashing devices that have infrared LEDs.
[36:00.970 --> 36:08.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Maybe somebody might even build a miniature blinking lights display using infrared LEDs to go on the front of, say, a baseball cap and scroll Stop the MPAA.
[36:09.310 --> 36:10.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wouldn't that be fun?
[36:11.850 --> 36:20.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it would be completely invisible to anyone not using night vision equipment but all those people going in there looking for camcorders or whatever would get a little message that would surprise them no doubt.
[36:21.190 --> 36:24.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, we should just bring our TV remotes and just kind of hit them from time to time?
[36:25.310 --> 36:26.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I guess.
[36:26.130 --> 36:27.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: It could have all kinds of effects.
[36:27.250 --> 36:29.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: You'd just basically be sending out random lights there.
[36:29.830 --> 36:32.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, yeah, that would be kind of fun.
[36:33.410 --> 36:35.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: This person writes in saying, Your show is great.
[36:35.650 --> 36:36.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm always listening every Wednesday.
[36:37.530 --> 36:42.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can you talk about those new automated cashier devices they have in some K-marts and Home Depots?
[36:42.570 --> 36:43.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not familiar with these.
[36:43.350 --> 36:44.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anyone use one of these?
[36:44.330 --> 36:46.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've used one of them at Publix down in Florida.
[36:46.450 --> 36:46.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Publix?
[36:46.970 --> 36:47.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[36:47.170 --> 36:47.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: What's Publix?
[36:48.030 --> 36:48.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a supermarket chain.
[36:49.130 --> 36:49.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Supermarket, okay.
[36:49.850 --> 36:53.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: I was recently in a Home Depot and I actually got into sort of a fight with the machine.
[36:53.810 --> 36:55.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Those are always great getting into fights with machines.
[36:56.390 --> 36:59.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: When you skew your item, skew, what does that word mean?
[36:59.190 --> 37:00.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: S-K-U, stop keeping unit.
[37:00.450 --> 37:02.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not spelled S-C-U-E.
[37:02.270 --> 37:03.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you think they spelled the word wrong?
[37:03.630 --> 37:05.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think they spelled around, I think it's S-K-E-W.
[37:05.950 --> 37:06.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what I thought, S-K-E-W.
[37:07.130 --> 37:08.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not parallel, not in the correct alignment.
[37:09.290 --> 37:09.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[37:09.730 --> 37:26.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, when you skew your item, if you do not put it on the scale, the scale makes sure no unauthorized items have been placed on there, immediately the machine will start to speak loudly and it will not let you stop and cancel your last item or remove any items from your list.
[37:26.310 --> 37:38.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you happen to not get your item skewed and put on the scale within about six seconds, it will not allow you to put the item on the scale or to continue with your purchases until the item has been removed or added.
[37:39.090 --> 37:46.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: I am no means computer illiterate, but these systems are difficult to use because there is no cancel or any way of editing you a list of items.
[37:46.310 --> 37:48.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think it is a very weird system and it needs to be exploited.
[37:49.250 --> 37:49.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sorry, Frank.
[37:49.810 --> 37:50.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, I have to agree with that.
[37:50.870 --> 37:51.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: It is a very strange system.
[37:52.630 --> 37:53.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: One of the...
[37:53.670 --> 37:55.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: It is very dictatorial.
[37:55.230 --> 37:56.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: I agree with that.
[37:56.230 --> 38:09.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: It tells you exactly what you should do next and if you do not do what it says, it starts to get very angry at you and it will actually speak louder to get the attention of a supermarket employee who is assigned to sort of watch over these machines and make sure that...
[38:09.230 --> 38:13.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: I did use a system like that in Home Depot, but it looked like a human being.
[38:13.770 --> 38:14.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is that what these things...
[38:14.770 --> 38:15.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, this is...
[38:15.470 --> 38:16.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're not that sophisticated?
[38:16.790 --> 38:20.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, I think skew there does mean sort of like scan the barcode with a laser.
[38:20.690 --> 38:20.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[38:21.270 --> 38:21.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: But...
[38:21.630 --> 38:22.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not a skew.
[38:22.570 --> 38:23.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: A skew, I think, is a different meaning.
[38:23.950 --> 38:31.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, but these systems, they've got a little monitor and a scale and a barcode scanner and it's supposed to know the weight of each item.
[38:31.230 --> 38:38.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: So you place it on the scale and it knows that, you know, whether within reasonable tolerances what you're putting there is the same thing as what you scanned.
[38:40.110 --> 38:45.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the people, the human beings are there to watch that you don't put anything through without putting it down on the scale.
[38:45.990 --> 38:51.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is this related to the whole supermarket thing where you don't have to...
[38:51.630 --> 38:56.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: You just basically throw everything into your card and just sort of zip through the checkout and somehow bag it yourself?
[38:56.830 --> 39:03.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's being done with RFID, which is going to be sort of the next step after that where each product is going to have what's like a little easy pass on it.
[39:03.770 --> 39:16.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's sort of like the thing that was going to happen with Benetton, though now it's not, but it's going to have a little RFID and when you pass through the exit, somehow it knows who you are, I guess, for billing.
[39:16.130 --> 39:17.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm not sure how that part works.
[39:17.330 --> 39:21.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it can, via these little radio tags, identify each item individually.
[39:22.190 --> 39:22.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[39:22.810 --> 39:25.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, because that annoys me, supermarkets.
[39:25.430 --> 39:28.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just, every time I go there, they always are, are demanding this information now.
[39:28.850 --> 39:30.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: They want to know are you a member of our club?
[39:30.970 --> 39:33.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I don't want to be a member of every single supermarket I go to.
[39:33.650 --> 39:35.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, are you guys members of any names?
[39:35.630 --> 39:36.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: You are, Jeff.
[39:36.310 --> 39:36.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sure.
[39:36.890 --> 39:38.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: What do you get from this?
[39:38.110 --> 39:39.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you get invited to parties or something?
[39:39.750 --> 39:40.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, no, no, no.
[39:40.190 --> 39:41.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: You get the sale items.
[39:41.970 --> 39:44.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: They do have some discounts, but what helps...
[39:44.390 --> 39:45.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, you have it with you?
[39:45.170 --> 39:46.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, well, you want to talk about it.
[39:46.350 --> 39:46.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: I might as well pull it out.
[39:46.950 --> 39:47.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow, look at that.
[39:47.550 --> 39:49.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's like a little barcode, a little plastic barcode.
[39:49.450 --> 39:49.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Exactly.
[39:49.810 --> 39:51.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: And they track all your purchases.
[39:51.170 --> 39:51.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: You have a lot of them.
[39:52.050 --> 39:52.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: I have three.
[39:52.950 --> 39:53.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wow.
[39:53.430 --> 39:53.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: I have three.
[39:53.670 --> 39:54.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's all for different stores?
[39:54.950 --> 39:55.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes.
[39:55.570 --> 39:56.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: But the advantage is...
[39:56.370 --> 39:56.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: Want to tell us what stores they are?
[39:57.090 --> 39:58.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you'd like to know, sure.
[39:58.330 --> 39:59.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: We've got an A&P.
[39:59.450 --> 39:59.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[40:00.370 --> 40:02.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: We've got a Pathmark.
[40:02.150 --> 40:02.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[40:02.450 --> 40:03.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: And we've got a Key Food.
[40:03.730 --> 40:06.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do they get mad when they realize that you have cards from other stores that are their competitors?
[40:07.190 --> 40:08.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, they're fine with it.
[40:09.050 --> 40:16.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: The advantage for me and the only reason I really do this is it allows me to cash a check at any one of these stores which are open longer than the banks.
[40:16.490 --> 40:16.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: I see.
[40:17.070 --> 40:18.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: So there is an advantage.
[40:18.390 --> 40:21.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you don't pull it out, they can't track your purchases.
[40:21.370 --> 40:22.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: But here's the thing.
[40:22.470 --> 40:24.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I've never filled out a form or looked at a form.
[40:24.690 --> 40:26.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: What kind of information do they ask from the person?
[40:27.210 --> 40:28.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: Name, address...
[40:29.290 --> 40:30.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Social security number?
[40:30.330 --> 40:33.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you want to cash a check, they want more invasive stuff, yes.
[40:33.810 --> 40:36.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't recall social security number because I never wanted to check cash at these places.
[40:37.010 --> 40:38.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't trust them with the information I have to give.
[40:38.930 --> 40:43.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: But whenever you make a purchase at one of these places, they could call up everything you've ever bought.
[40:43.970 --> 40:44.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, they do.
[40:44.830 --> 40:50.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: And in fact, I have here a Food Town card and they're giving away...
[40:50.010 --> 41:00.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: If I spend another 90-some-odd bucks in the next two weeks, which I should do, I get 3,000 extra green points, which are good for even further lowering the price of things.
[41:00.290 --> 41:09.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: But I've avoided, you know, having my particular name scanned for a lot of things because they don't mail you anything usually.
[41:09.590 --> 41:15.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: So you can just put in somebody's name and address and they don't care.
[41:15.230 --> 41:16.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: If I can do it with a fake name, I'll do it.
[41:16.750 --> 41:18.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think that's a perfectly legitimate use for that.
[41:18.850 --> 41:21.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: My cards are all in the name of Emmanuel Goldstein 120 Wall Street.
[41:21.370 --> 41:22.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you so much.
[41:22.830 --> 41:29.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: But my other question, though, is lots of times I tell them, no, I don't have your card there and they give me the discount anyway.
[41:29.310 --> 41:30.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why are they doing that?
[41:30.430 --> 41:31.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that's surprising.
[41:31.910 --> 41:33.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I'm wondering.
[41:33.130 --> 41:36.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because at Food Town, it's like military.
[41:37.190 --> 41:37.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: You don't have the card?
[41:38.130 --> 41:38.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Sorry.
[41:39.090 --> 41:42.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I'm waiting for the day when they turn you away and say, no, we don't want your business.
[41:42.870 --> 41:48.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: But it's 25% higher on all the sales items and any given week, I'd say 20% of the store is on sale.
[41:48.910 --> 41:50.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are they adding 25% to the existing price?
[41:50.890 --> 41:54.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, they take off 25% when you use the card.
[41:54.810 --> 41:56.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: How do you know that's not the normal price?
[41:56.610 --> 41:58.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: And they're just adding 25% when people don't get that card?
[41:59.190 --> 42:06.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: When we were in Amsterdam, I picked up one of the Privacy Plus cards, which was something that they did in Germany as a joke.
[42:06.390 --> 42:13.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: They basically took one guy's application and they made a ton of cards and distributed them throughout Germany.
[42:13.670 --> 42:13.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Wow.
[42:13.950 --> 42:17.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: So this guy was buying things in every area simultaneously.
[42:17.230 --> 42:20.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the attitude that I'd like to see here where people do things like that.
[42:21.030 --> 42:26.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: We should do that with my Food Town card and I'll get 5 billion green points and be able to buy all sorts of things.
[42:26.490 --> 42:29.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Why don't we start this at the 2600 meetings this Friday?
[42:29.370 --> 42:31.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll just start applications, right?
[42:32.050 --> 42:38.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: And one guy will have a super purchaser discount because he's buying every minute of the day from various stores.
[42:38.530 --> 42:39.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've got a better idea.
[42:39.910 --> 42:42.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let's seriously do this with Food Town.
[42:42.450 --> 42:43.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Use somebody's real name.
[42:44.870 --> 42:47.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: When we get the merchandise, premiums.
[42:48.870 --> 42:49.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Premiums?
[42:49.650 --> 42:50.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Premiums.
[42:50.230 --> 42:50.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.
[42:50.990 --> 42:51.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: Sounds kind of complicated.
[42:52.010 --> 42:52.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, no.
[42:52.250 --> 42:52.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Listen to me.
[42:52.710 --> 42:53.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Follow with me.
[42:53.450 --> 42:55.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: We put it all in, for example, my name.
[42:56.290 --> 42:56.650]  Okay.
[42:57.570 --> 43:01.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't use most of this stuff that green points are used for, right?
[43:02.210 --> 43:06.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: But you can buy, like, lawn chairs, radios, blenders, whatever.
[43:06.650 --> 43:06.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[43:07.250 --> 43:09.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: We use them for premiums for Pledge Week.
[43:09.210 --> 43:11.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: And how do you ship out a lawn chair?
[43:11.290 --> 43:11.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Have you ever tried that?
[43:12.130 --> 43:12.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, all right.
[43:12.570 --> 43:13.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: You have to pick it up.
[43:13.490 --> 43:14.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's a real pain.
[43:14.930 --> 43:15.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[43:15.630 --> 43:16.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Enough about the supermarkets.
[43:17.050 --> 43:17.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was an idea.
[43:17.130 --> 43:17.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll think about it.
[43:17.290 --> 43:18.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Enough about supermarkets.
[43:18.170 --> 43:19.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's just an idea, something to think about.
[43:20.230 --> 43:25.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: But on your April 23rd show last week, one person called in alerting you to an episode of Frontline called Cyber War.
[43:25.790 --> 43:26.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: I totally forgot about it.
[43:27.010 --> 43:27.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did anybody see it?
[43:27.830 --> 43:28.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, I saw it.
[43:28.330 --> 43:28.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: We watched it all.
[43:28.890 --> 43:29.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: You saw it.
[43:29.210 --> 43:29.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, boy.
[43:29.730 --> 43:29.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Any good?
[43:31.310 --> 43:34.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it was all right.
[43:34.190 --> 43:35.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, a lot of these people just missed the point.
[43:35.810 --> 43:36.090]  Uh-huh.
[43:36.830 --> 43:42.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: I thought that, you know, a lot of the analysis was reasonable as far as, you know, what the actual risks are of this stuff.
[43:43.330 --> 43:46.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: People understood that nothing had really happened yet.
[43:46.650 --> 43:50.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nobody was pretending that we were in the middle of some kind of ongoing cyber war.
[43:51.130 --> 43:55.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, you know, our old friends like Richard Clark, who was, you know, the former CyberZar were there.
[43:56.170 --> 43:59.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, some sort of alleged NSA superhacker.
[43:59.370 --> 43:59.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
[43:59.790 --> 44:02.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's someone in the federal government with the title CyberZar.
[44:03.030 --> 44:03.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[44:03.410 --> 44:03.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, yeah.
[44:04.110 --> 44:05.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's been for a while.
[44:06.310 --> 44:21.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, for those of you who didn't see it, and I guess I would include people like me, you can see it online at www.pbs.org slash WGBH slash pages slash front lines slash shows slash cyber war slash view.
[44:22.430 --> 44:24.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm ready to slash somebody after all those slashes.
[44:25.170 --> 44:26.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's an easier way to get there.
[44:26.970 --> 44:28.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's an easier way to get there?
[44:28.010 --> 44:28.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's that?
[44:28.550 --> 44:29.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: You all take them there?
[44:29.310 --> 44:32.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: On the PBS's front page, you just got a list of all the shows.
[44:33.090 --> 44:33.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[44:33.410 --> 44:34.310]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you're still in front line.
[44:34.510 --> 44:38.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I'll bet ten years from now when people are listening to this on an archive, that won't be there.
[44:38.250 --> 44:40.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: So when I gave them all the slashes...
[44:40.210 --> 44:42.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Will there even be such thing as a URL anymore?
[44:42.090 --> 44:42.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Probably not.
[44:42.770 --> 44:47.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Probably people can just, you know, click on something in their brain and get information.
[44:47.750 --> 44:48.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right, final letter.
[44:48.810 --> 44:53.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm an avid listener of the show Off the Hook on WBAI and I'm looking for some advice regarding purchasing a cell phone.
[44:54.170 --> 44:58.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: I currently have Sprint PCS and I use the Kyocera Qualcomm 2035.
[44:59.350 --> 45:04.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: My calls are frequently being dropped and the battery life is supposed to be 2.4 hours but it runs out in about one hour.
[45:04.890 --> 45:06.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Then it takes another half hour to charge.
[45:06.510 --> 45:11.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: I often talk to friends and family on the West Coast so I use up almost all the allotted minutes which are 3,000.
[45:12.150 --> 45:13.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can anybody recommend a cell phone?
[45:13.730 --> 45:18.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you know, my first suggestion is the service that you're using.
[45:19.550 --> 45:21.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: This, I swear, I'm going to break this phone.
[45:21.970 --> 45:23.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'll do it on the air too when I decide to do it.
[45:23.590 --> 45:24.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's a Qualcomm also.
[45:24.790 --> 45:25.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is a Qualcomm phone.
[45:25.970 --> 45:27.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is what it sounds like dropping on the table.
[45:28.370 --> 45:30.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's what it sounds like dropping on the floor.
[45:30.350 --> 45:31.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a shame we don't have video.
[45:32.410 --> 45:35.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: The point is, this thing annoys me so much.
[45:35.150 --> 45:43.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: I have the same exact problem where it runs out of battery really quickly because Sprint PCS uses technology where if it has a weak signal, it'll spend more energy trying to get to that.
[45:45.470 --> 45:46.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: T-Mobile does not do that.
[45:46.850 --> 45:47.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're the GSM provider.
[45:48.390 --> 45:49.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: I imagine AT&T doesn't do that either.
[45:50.310 --> 45:52.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: You might want to look into a different service provider.
[45:52.570 --> 45:54.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: But that particular phone has another annoying trait.
[45:55.010 --> 45:56.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me just reach down and get it.
[45:57.070 --> 45:58.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is the...
[45:59.070 --> 46:00.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: What number is this?
[46:00.390 --> 46:01.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is the 1960.
[46:01.650 --> 46:02.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's the thin phone.
[46:04.410 --> 46:06.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sprint, I think, has this on almost all their phones.
[46:07.050 --> 46:09.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or maybe it's Qualcomm a feature, the pocket call.
[46:10.210 --> 46:11.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: You guys know what I'm talking about?
[46:11.290 --> 46:11.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: The pocket call?
[46:11.790 --> 46:16.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's where your phone decides to call somebody on its own from your pocket.
[46:16.450 --> 46:18.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, you might have gotten some of these calls yourself.
[46:19.070 --> 46:25.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you ever get a phone call or a voicemail message and you just hear somebody walking around and you hear muffled sounds, that's called a pocket call.
[46:25.750 --> 46:38.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's where somebody actually does not mean to call you but their phone clicks on, say, a speed dial or a last number redial type of a thing and just makes the phone call and stays connected until either you hang up or they find it and disconnect themselves.
[46:39.190 --> 46:44.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Many is the time that I've discovered my phone calling people that I haven't spoken to in years because they're in my speed dial someplace.
[46:44.930 --> 46:45.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's very embarrassing.
[46:46.290 --> 46:47.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Especially if it's somebody you don't want to talk to.
[46:48.050 --> 46:53.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: They think that you're harassing them and calling them and not speaking and things like that.
[46:53.310 --> 46:57.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I finally figured out, you know, you can put on the keypad lock.
[46:57.470 --> 46:57.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's great.
[46:58.150 --> 47:01.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, you hold down the left key and it goes to key lock.
[47:01.770 --> 47:03.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, this phone has outsmarted me on that one.
[47:04.190 --> 47:10.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: When you walk around, something triggers the phone to turn itself off and then turn itself back on again.
[47:10.590 --> 47:17.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: So when it turns itself off and then comes back on, of course, the key lock is not in effect and it's free to make more pocket calls which it has done.
[47:18.550 --> 47:20.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: So that's my feelings on Sprint PCS.
[47:21.150 --> 47:22.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is that pocket call, is that a technical term?
[47:23.130 --> 47:23.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it is now.
[47:23.990 --> 47:24.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[47:24.370 --> 47:24.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's hope so.
[47:25.630 --> 47:27.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, make it quick because we've got to take phone calls.
[47:27.330 --> 47:28.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's 212-209-2900.
[47:28.750 --> 47:29.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Just a funny story.
[47:29.870 --> 47:40.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Last week when I was in the studio, after we started leaving, I noticed my cell phone made a pocket phone call to WBI's switchboard and was on for 30 minutes.
[47:41.230 --> 47:42.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: 30 minutes, huh?
[47:42.230 --> 47:43.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did you get the call?
[47:43.810 --> 47:45.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, you were on the air 30 minutes?
[47:46.010 --> 47:46.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wow.
[47:46.430 --> 47:49.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, I mean, Fred goes home at like 5 o'clock so I don't know what he was talking to.
[47:50.270 --> 47:50.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: But that's...
[47:50.970 --> 47:53.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: I guess if you call the WBAI switchboard it doesn't hang up.
[47:53.510 --> 47:54.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was at 7 p.m.
[47:54.430 --> 47:55.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: They have an answering machine.
[47:55.690 --> 47:58.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: I know that but what I'm saying is what were you connected to for 30 minutes?
[47:59.070 --> 47:59.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: I wish I knew.
[47:59.690 --> 48:01.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: I would just like to re-emphasize that this isn't the fault of the phone.
[48:01.990 --> 48:04.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Everybody's saying that the phone is making this call on its own.
[48:04.650 --> 48:10.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's the fault of your hip or your butt or whatever part of your anatomy is protruding to the extent...
[48:10.410 --> 48:10.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[48:10.730 --> 48:13.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you have one of these phones do not move at all.
[48:13.510 --> 48:14.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's my only advice.
[48:14.870 --> 48:15.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Keep the phone stationary.
[48:16.210 --> 48:17.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's take some phone calls.
[48:17.170 --> 48:17.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[48:17.410 --> 48:18.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: 212-209-2900.
[48:19.050 --> 48:19.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[48:19.690 --> 48:20.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on the air.
[48:20.390 --> 48:21.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, that's a pocket call.
[48:22.230 --> 48:24.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, I think it's an impatient call.
[48:24.330 --> 48:25.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let's go over here.
[48:25.470 --> 48:25.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[48:25.710 --> 48:26.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on the air.
[48:27.430 --> 48:27.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead.
[48:28.090 --> 48:28.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Speak up.
[48:30.170 --> 48:30.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[48:30.570 --> 48:31.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that was your opportunity.
[48:31.850 --> 48:32.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: What was the tape for there?
[48:33.330 --> 48:34.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: The tape means that line does not work.
[48:35.070 --> 48:35.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[48:35.490 --> 48:37.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I'm going to get this one before it goes over there.
[48:37.150 --> 48:37.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[48:37.450 --> 48:37.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on the air.
[48:38.030 --> 48:43.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, my phone doesn't do that because I have a cover on my keypad on my Sprint PC.
[48:43.310 --> 48:44.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: How does a cover prevent...
[48:44.970 --> 48:45.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a hard cover.
[48:45.810 --> 48:46.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it a hard cover?
[48:46.670 --> 48:47.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it is a hard cover.
[48:47.690 --> 48:48.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a flip case.
[48:48.310 --> 48:49.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you see my phone, you've seen my phone.
[48:50.210 --> 48:52.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, but I can't get a hard cover for that model.
[48:52.370 --> 48:53.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: At least I don't think I could build one, I suppose.
[48:53.950 --> 48:54.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mine built in.
[48:54.470 --> 48:55.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mine came with it.
[48:55.410 --> 48:56.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: My phone is like that.
[48:56.990 --> 48:59.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, yeah, the phones that aren't like that don't have that problem.
[48:59.510 --> 49:01.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: The phones that are like that don't have the cover.
[49:01.950 --> 49:02.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Congratulations, Rebel.
[49:02.830 --> 49:03.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on topic.
[49:03.850 --> 49:04.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[49:04.370 --> 49:05.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, anyway, I'd like to...
[49:05.530 --> 49:06.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: It can't last.
[49:06.250 --> 49:07.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is our interactive call.
[49:07.630 --> 49:12.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: If anyone likes to email the comments to me, it's rebel11103 at yahoo.com.
[49:13.150 --> 49:14.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's all you're going to say about yourself tonight.
[49:15.030 --> 49:15.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[49:15.690 --> 49:16.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on the air.
[49:17.510 --> 49:18.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Speak up, please.
[49:18.870 --> 49:19.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[49:19.350 --> 49:19.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Great show.
[49:20.090 --> 49:20.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you.
[49:20.550 --> 49:21.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have a question.
[49:21.790 --> 49:32.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm trying to set up a wireless network but also have the network beam my, you know, presentations, et cetera, to a television for, you know, meetings.
[49:32.970 --> 49:34.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is that possible?
[49:34.210 --> 49:39.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or do I have to do two separate types of, you know, devices?
[49:41.250 --> 49:42.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: It could be possible.
[49:43.210 --> 49:43.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[49:44.770 --> 49:46.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Can we get some music, Jeopardy Jim?
[49:46.670 --> 49:47.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Some music.
[49:47.970 --> 49:52.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Any idea on what type of interface I should try to get?
[49:54.130 --> 49:54.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Ooh.
[49:55.310 --> 49:55.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: No.
[49:55.770 --> 49:57.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it looks like you've stumped our technical panel here.
[49:58.250 --> 49:59.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do I get a prize?
[49:59.470 --> 50:00.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: A new laptop, maybe?
[50:01.770 --> 50:06.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you go with the futon points thing, we'll get you a little portable cooler or thermos.
[50:06.290 --> 50:07.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or a WBAI t-shirt.
[50:08.010 --> 50:08.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what I like.
[50:08.970 --> 50:09.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: Or a lunch share.
[50:09.510 --> 50:10.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, let's not go too far.
[50:10.850 --> 50:11.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[50:11.930 --> 50:12.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[50:12.350 --> 50:12.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[50:12.610 --> 50:13.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good luck with that.
[50:13.090 --> 50:14.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Sorry we couldn't help you more.
[50:14.030 --> 50:16.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: It may be in violation of super DMCA laws, though.
[50:17.350 --> 50:24.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Speaking of t-shirts, people have been inquiring about these, the WBAI t-shirts, off-the-hook t-shirts that we're making up.
[50:24.190 --> 50:27.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, we expect to accept delivery on those next week.
[50:27.530 --> 50:30.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: And at that point, we'll be sending them to the people who pledged for them.
[50:31.110 --> 50:33.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: The hooded sweatshirts, they are also in production.
[50:34.090 --> 50:37.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're going to take a little bit longer, but they will be sent to everybody who pledged for them.
[50:37.710 --> 50:40.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that goes for off-the-wall listeners as well as off-the-hook listeners.
[50:41.010 --> 50:44.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: So for those of you who are inpatient, that's the update on that.
[50:44.510 --> 50:47.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: And other premiums will be mailed independently of those, and they should all be available now.
[50:50.010 --> 50:50.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[50:50.490 --> 50:51.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you paid your pledge.
[50:51.270 --> 50:51.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you paid your pledge.
[50:51.930 --> 50:52.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, that's the other part of it.
[50:53.070 --> 50:58.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: You sort of have to pay the pledge in order for you to get the premium.
[50:58.130 --> 50:59.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I think that's kind of understood.
[50:59.830 --> 51:00.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[51:00.330 --> 51:00.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on the air.
[51:02.110 --> 51:02.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hello.
[51:02.690 --> 51:02.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Go ahead.
[51:03.730 --> 51:06.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I have a recommendation about the phone service.
[51:07.190 --> 51:09.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: The guy up the coast or calls the west coast.
[51:09.850 --> 51:10.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[51:11.070 --> 51:12.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: I use a Nextel.
[51:12.890 --> 51:14.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: I had the Sprint Kyocera.
[51:14.910 --> 51:15.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was a nightmare.
[51:16.130 --> 51:18.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: The battery, whatever you're pocket calling.
[51:18.470 --> 51:20.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was stuck with a one-year contract.
[51:20.930 --> 51:28.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: Got Nextel because they have coast-to-coast walkie-talkie unlimited direct connect.
[51:28.510 --> 51:30.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is the coast-to-coast feature working yet?
[51:30.970 --> 51:31.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not yet.
[51:31.090 --> 51:32.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because I know that was new.
[51:32.490 --> 51:32.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Soon.
[51:33.430 --> 51:34.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, not yet.
[51:34.970 --> 51:35.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, but it will be soon.
[51:35.790 --> 51:37.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they're promising it.
[51:37.430 --> 51:38.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's a little more expensive.
[51:40.030 --> 51:41.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: But you know what you're paying.
[51:41.610 --> 51:48.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if you have friends all over the United States and you use a lot of minutes, this is the way to go.
[51:49.150 --> 51:49.330]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[51:49.650 --> 51:50.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, thanks for the info.
[51:51.690 --> 51:54.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: Most companies should have that soon because their patent ran out on that.
[51:55.090 --> 51:56.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: so other companies will be able to...
[51:56.670 --> 51:57.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, they had a patent on that.
[51:57.530 --> 51:57.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, yeah.
[51:58.070 --> 51:58.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Interesting.
[51:58.670 --> 51:59.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: See, I don't know.
[51:59.190 --> 52:04.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: I hear people walking around with those things and they go off occasionally and it's, you know, some guy's girlfriend yelling at him for forgetting something.
[52:04.950 --> 52:12.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, it must be kind of embarrassing to have, you know, suddenly your belt or, you know, start speaking words, you know, of a personal nature to you.
[52:12.770 --> 52:15.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: How many times do you actually need a walkie-talkie?
[52:15.430 --> 52:15.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know?
[52:16.130 --> 52:18.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, when a phone will do just as well.
[52:18.850 --> 52:20.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: And plus, you know, everybody sounds like a cop now.
[52:21.030 --> 52:24.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, you don't know who's a cop and who's, you know, a civilian with one of these devices.
[52:24.950 --> 52:27.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're very handy, actually, at protests.
[52:27.170 --> 52:28.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: At protests, I imagine they'd be very happy.
[52:28.870 --> 52:31.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: But then again, the authorities can listen in on those frequencies, can't they?
[52:32.690 --> 52:33.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, yeah.
[52:33.430 --> 52:35.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, so they're also very handy for people...
[52:35.830 --> 52:37.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: We can listen in on their frequencies, too.
[52:37.250 --> 52:44.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that's true, but they have many frequencies and they also have, you know, digital encryption things going on as well.
[52:45.150 --> 52:48.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not sure, you know, how secure is Nextel from eavesdroppers?
[52:49.110 --> 52:50.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is there no encryption in walkie-talkie mode?
[52:50.830 --> 52:52.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that what I'm to understand?
[52:52.330 --> 52:57.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not sure because I haven't used the system myself, but I've been told that authorities are able to listen pretty easily.
[52:57.890 --> 52:59.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Your code will call somebody else's code.
[53:00.010 --> 53:01.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's not just open line.
[53:01.590 --> 53:03.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: You're not going to pick it up on every other phone.
[53:03.650 --> 53:03.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[53:04.990 --> 53:05.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: So it's...
[53:06.350 --> 53:17.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm just wondering with something that can monitor digital communications, if you just can pull it right out of the air or if it uses the same encryption that is used between you and the cell site when you place a normal call.
[53:17.370 --> 53:25.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you have a way of listening in to Nextel phone, calls or whatever you call those things, please let us know because we'd be very interested in that as well.
[53:26.710 --> 53:27.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: And good evening.
[53:27.170 --> 53:27.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on the air.
[53:28.510 --> 53:28.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[53:28.710 --> 53:29.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, guys.
[53:29.330 --> 53:29.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
[53:29.570 --> 53:32.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: I rather listen to you guys on the McNeil-Lair report.
[53:33.370 --> 53:34.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know what...
[53:34.290 --> 53:35.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're listening to us on the McNeil-Lair report?
[53:36.210 --> 53:36.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sorry?
[53:36.970 --> 53:37.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: What did you just say?
[53:37.910 --> 53:42.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I rather listen to you guys than that McNeil-Lair report news that I usually listen to.
[53:42.350 --> 53:43.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, I thought you said we were on the McNeil-Lair report.
[53:44.070 --> 53:45.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was wondering about how that could be.
[53:51.030 --> 53:54.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: ringers that they have music to them and they're very...
[53:54.870 --> 53:56.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes they're very loud and annoying.
[53:57.070 --> 53:57.270]  Uh-huh.
[53:57.410 --> 54:08.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing is that the feature that you said that it kicks on the phone automatically without you notifying, that happened to me because I have a family plan and my kids...
[54:08.330 --> 54:13.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: And many times my kids, they're walking around with their friends and you could hear their conversation and stuff like that.
[54:13.890 --> 54:18.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: The only good thing is that you could question your daughter and, you know, where were you?
[54:18.870 --> 54:21.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they would say, oh, I was at the library when they're by word.
[54:21.390 --> 54:23.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, that's one of the good parts about it.
[54:23.590 --> 54:24.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, thanks for your program.
[54:25.050 --> 54:25.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[54:25.450 --> 54:25.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: Take care, bye.
[54:25.910 --> 54:27.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thanks for that perspective.
[54:28.610 --> 54:31.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I guess it is possible for that to happen.
[54:31.730 --> 54:34.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, get information about people that way.
[54:34.610 --> 54:35.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing.
[54:36.590 --> 54:37.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[54:37.290 --> 54:38.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on the air.
[54:38.430 --> 54:38.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[54:38.850 --> 54:40.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'd also like to mention...
[54:40.410 --> 54:41.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, you wouldn't.
[54:41.150 --> 54:42.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: You really wouldn't, Rebel.
[54:42.210 --> 54:42.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening.
[54:42.590 --> 54:43.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're on the air.
[54:44.590 --> 54:45.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Speak up, please.
[54:45.950 --> 54:46.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello.
[54:46.490 --> 54:46.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, go ahead.
[54:47.910 --> 54:50.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, this is Jokin from Belgium.
[54:50.610 --> 54:51.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hey, how you doing?
[54:51.770 --> 54:52.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm fine, hi.
[54:52.510 --> 54:54.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Listening to us over the Internet in Belgium right now.
[54:54.330 --> 54:54.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[54:54.650 --> 54:54.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Great.
[54:56.570 --> 55:02.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I want to talk about the digital ID card they got in Belgium.
[55:02.490 --> 55:03.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, tell us.
[55:03.630 --> 55:04.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think about it?
[55:05.090 --> 55:07.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, tell us some facts about this digital ID.
[55:07.770 --> 55:11.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they just brought it to us.
[55:11.310 --> 55:12.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: They just started the project.
[55:13.730 --> 55:15.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, yeah, everybody got it.
[55:15.690 --> 55:17.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are you required to carry these?
[55:18.230 --> 55:19.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, not yet.
[55:19.490 --> 55:20.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not yet, okay.
[55:20.430 --> 55:21.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, yeah, I think in a few years...
[55:21.810 --> 55:22.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is it a driver's license?
[55:22.710 --> 55:23.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody will, yeah.
[55:23.510 --> 55:25.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: What kind of information is on this card?
[55:26.150 --> 55:31.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: For the moment, it's just your name, the address, well, the usual information.
[55:32.610 --> 55:37.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: But they're talking about putting commercial applications on it also.
[55:38.910 --> 55:41.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: Does it have your blood type and any medical information?
[55:42.190 --> 55:42.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, not yet.
[55:42.890 --> 55:43.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: No?
[55:43.250 --> 55:45.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is issued by the national government?
[55:46.350 --> 55:46.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[55:47.170 --> 55:49.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, it has your address on it, you said.
[55:49.750 --> 55:50.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Excuse me?
[55:50.430 --> 55:51.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: You said it has your address on it?
[55:51.810 --> 55:52.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, it has your address on it.
[55:52.870 --> 55:53.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: It has your name on it.
[55:54.050 --> 55:56.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, at what point do you tell them your address?
[55:56.590 --> 55:58.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you move, for instance, do you have to give them your address?
[55:59.010 --> 55:59.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we have to.
[56:00.110 --> 56:00.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Really?
[56:00.450 --> 56:01.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, that's a law over there.
[56:01.590 --> 56:01.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[56:02.590 --> 56:08.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Even if we move out of the country, we have to tell them we move out of the country, so...
[56:08.250 --> 56:09.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: What does this card look like?
[56:10.430 --> 56:13.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's really small, like a banking card now.
[56:14.130 --> 56:14.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[56:14.970 --> 56:18.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is there anything that you need to use this card for that you can't do without it?
[56:18.750 --> 56:23.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, if the cops, for example, hold you, you have to be able to show it.
[56:24.150 --> 56:25.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, not carrying the card is a crime?
[56:26.210 --> 56:26.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[56:26.870 --> 56:27.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Interesting.
[56:27.310 --> 56:30.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's like Germany's ID cards, which I don't think are digital yet.
[56:30.670 --> 56:34.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can you take a picture and maybe send it to us via email?
[56:35.030 --> 56:35.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I can.
[56:36.310 --> 56:36.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: I will do.
[56:36.950 --> 56:41.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: If anyone in Belgium loses their cards and wants to mail them to us instead, feel free to do that.
[56:41.730 --> 56:42.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll have one in the...
[56:42.550 --> 56:43.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you move, yeah.
[56:43.450 --> 56:45.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, if you say you lost it, right, they have to give you a duplicate.
[56:46.090 --> 56:46.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[56:46.370 --> 56:47.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or do you get in prison for that as well?
[56:47.950 --> 56:48.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, not yet.
[56:49.130 --> 56:49.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[56:49.550 --> 56:51.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to go to the police station and, yeah.
[56:52.670 --> 56:53.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wow, that's pretty scary.
[56:54.110 --> 56:58.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: And as we see many times, some of the things over there come over here and vice versa.
[56:58.410 --> 56:59.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, wow.
[57:00.350 --> 57:01.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: You've given us something to really think about.
[57:02.550 --> 57:02.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[57:03.110 --> 57:03.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, sir.
[57:03.770 --> 57:04.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you know the email address?
[57:05.110 --> 57:05.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know.
[57:05.970 --> 57:06.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah.
[57:06.470 --> 57:07.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Scan it and send it over.
[57:07.930 --> 57:08.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, thank you.
[57:09.070 --> 57:09.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[57:09.370 --> 57:09.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[57:09.770 --> 57:10.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[57:11.130 --> 57:13.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's really fascinating stuff there.
[57:13.290 --> 57:15.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: And if you're not in Belgium and have a national ID card, send that too.
[57:16.490 --> 57:16.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[57:17.030 --> 57:19.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'd like to know all about these bits of technology.
[57:19.010 --> 57:24.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I imagine these things will be discussed at the CCC camp taking place in Germany this summer in August.
[57:24.610 --> 57:29.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: More information on that, go to ccc.de slash camp or read the...
[57:29.970 --> 57:31.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: And they will be discussed this Friday, I'm sure.
[57:31.970 --> 57:32.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, yes.
[57:32.290 --> 57:35.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: At the 2600 meetings, which will be taking place almost everywhere in the world.
[57:36.090 --> 57:38.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, if you're around, be part of that.
[57:39.890 --> 57:43.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's going to just about do it for us this week.
[57:43.230 --> 57:45.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll be back again next week with another edition of Off the Hook.
[57:46.210 --> 57:48.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Until then, stay free, stay safe, stay awake.
[57:48.870 --> 57:49.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Have a good night.
[57:49.770 --> 57:50.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: See ya.