Off The Hook - 2003-07-30

[00:00.000 --> 00:15.220]  [SPEAKER_00]: As states scurry to purchase new electronic voting systems, and companies vie to reap some of the $3.9 billion the federal government is offering the states for such purchases, citizens are meeting with officials to demand transparency and a means of verification.
[00:15.900 --> 00:21.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: Congressman Rush Holt has introduced new federal legislation that would require the verifying paper trail.
[00:21.700 --> 00:35.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: To learn more on this issue, or to read the Hopkins report yourself, visit www.verifiedvoting.org, or visit www.blackboxvoting.com.
[00:36.120 --> 00:40.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: Reporting from KPFT in Houston, this is Pokey Anderson for Free Speech Radio News.
[00:44.860 --> 00:47.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is Free Speech Radio News.
[00:47.240 --> 00:48.440]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Deepa Fernandez.
[00:52.630 --> 00:56.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: And Free Speech Radio News came to you on recording.
[00:56.670 --> 01:01.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Here on listener-sponsored, WBAI New York, 99.5 FM.
[01:02.150 --> 01:02.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: It is 7.01.
[01:03.270 --> 01:05.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Time now for Off the Hook.
[01:11.180 --> 01:15.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:16.620 --> 01:21.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[01:21.900 --> 01:26.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[01:26.760 --> 01:29.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: A billy-bomb for the best, expect the worst.
[01:30.160 --> 01:33.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: I hope that's understood, but didn't it know?
[01:52.180 --> 01:52.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[01:52.960 --> 01:58.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: It is 7 o'clock here on WBAI, 99.5, and you're listening to Off the Hook.
[01:58.540 --> 02:04.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Our host, Emmanuel Goldstein, is currently overseas, and we're going to try and call him up right now.
[02:04.780 --> 02:12.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: What we're going to do is we're going to dial a toll-free 800 number here in the States.
[02:16.340 --> 02:20.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you should be able to hear this system connect.
[02:23.560 --> 02:26.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: What we have is a forwarding service.
[02:26.270 --> 02:28.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please wait while we dial your phone number.
[02:29.860 --> 02:30.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.
[02:36.560 --> 02:37.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: The European ring.
[02:38.640 --> 02:40.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hotel et le bretel, terminus, non-sponsor.
[02:41.100 --> 02:43.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, could I have room 419, please?
[02:44.240 --> 02:45.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: 419, hold the line, please.
[02:45.720 --> 02:46.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[02:47.740 --> 02:48.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bye-bye.
[02:52.960 --> 02:53.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, Emmanuel.
[02:55.040 --> 02:55.560]  Hello.
[02:56.210 --> 02:57.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: And are you there?
[02:57.940 --> 02:58.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, yeah.
[02:58.760 --> 02:59.200]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hello.
[02:59.600 --> 02:59.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[03:00.980 --> 03:02.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: We are here on the air.
[03:02.820 --> 03:03.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Where are you?
[03:03.700 --> 03:04.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: On the air, right.
[03:04.820 --> 03:05.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[03:05.600 --> 03:07.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: Must have dozed off a little bit.
[03:08.320 --> 03:10.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's 1 o'clock in the morning here in Paris.
[03:11.160 --> 03:11.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: Paris?
[03:12.200 --> 03:14.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, it caught me by surprise, actually.
[03:15.240 --> 03:17.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: I somehow thought it would be earlier.
[03:18.820 --> 03:20.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: And this is Off the Hook.
[03:21.210 --> 03:21.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[03:21.830 --> 03:22.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right?
[03:22.380 --> 03:23.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think so.
[03:23.420 --> 03:24.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, good, good.
[03:24.560 --> 03:29.140]  [SPEAKER_18]: And, yeah, the show continues.
[03:30.560 --> 03:33.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: We're spread apart in different parts of the world.
[03:33.360 --> 03:34.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm here in Paris.
[03:34.540 --> 03:35.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're there in New York.
[03:36.400 --> 03:40.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: Jeff is in a truck somewhere on the road, so we won't even hear from him tonight unless he calls in.
[03:41.300 --> 03:44.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: And various other people are scattered about as well.
[03:44.270 --> 03:48.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: Next week's going to be a bit more interesting because you're all going to be out here as well.
[03:48.330 --> 03:53.140]  [SPEAKER_18]: In fact, I think we're going to be either in Amsterdam or Germany, so I'm not quite sure how that show's going to sound.
[03:53.140 --> 04:00.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: But we're all getting ready for the Chaos Communications camp, which is coming up August 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th.
[04:00.700 --> 04:02.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I can't stress enough.
[04:02.960 --> 04:06.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: If people want to have fun this summer, this is the only option.
[04:06.560 --> 04:08.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: There's nothing else going on this summer.
[04:08.420 --> 04:10.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: There's no other fun to be had anyplace.
[04:10.210 --> 04:15.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: If you want to have fun this summer, you must go to the Chaos Communications Congress's or campus.
[04:15.180 --> 04:15.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's as simple as that.
[04:16.710 --> 04:17.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's pretty absolute.
[04:18.100 --> 04:19.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's pretty depressing.
[04:19.680 --> 04:20.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: I try to make it simple.
[04:22.180 --> 04:26.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: I've looked around to look at the options, and this is pretty much what's going on.
[04:28.260 --> 04:32.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: I've got to say a couple of things about Paris because it's just such an amazing place.
[04:32.640 --> 04:40.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: And if people have ever had the opportunity to come to Paris and turned it down, they should kick themselves because it simply is the most incredible city.
[04:41.080 --> 04:46.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: I spent all day today, literally all day, just walking around and was completely transfixed.
[04:46.180 --> 04:47.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: So transfixed, I forgot to eat.
[04:47.710 --> 04:53.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: I just kept walking and walking and looking at everything that was going on and just all the sites and all the people.
[04:53.680 --> 04:57.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's just a very transfixable type of a place.
[04:57.560 --> 05:09.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: And according to an article I saw in the Herald Tribune yesterday, they say that the number of American tourists visiting France has dropped dramatically by as much as 80% this year.
[05:09.440 --> 05:15.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I've got to say, you know, what kind of morons are these people who say, I'm not going to go to France?
[05:15.520 --> 05:15.850]  [SPEAKER_18]: Why?
[05:16.030 --> 05:18.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, what do they expect is going to happen to them?
[05:18.350 --> 05:20.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do they think people are going to throw stones at them because they're Americans?
[05:20.880 --> 05:23.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: Americans are welcome here like anyone else is welcome here.
[05:24.140 --> 05:33.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: And if you think you're somehow supporting your government by not going to another country that happened to disagree with us on something, that's a really silly way to live your life.
[05:34.660 --> 05:37.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's a really incredible place to be.
[05:37.040 --> 05:37.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: You get a sense of the history.
[05:38.060 --> 05:40.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: You get a sense of all kinds of different cultures.
[05:40.620 --> 05:44.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: France is a very integrated society.
[05:44.620 --> 05:51.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: You have all kinds of different cultures, different groups of people getting along in ways I just don't see in the United States, not yet anyway.
[05:51.560 --> 05:52.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I'd certainly like to.
[05:53.600 --> 05:55.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: Every time I come here, it's a breath of fresh air.
[05:55.640 --> 05:58.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: And it's just so inspiring.
[05:58.380 --> 06:02.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: So hopefully I'll be inspired by this and I'll do something better as a result.
[06:02.980 --> 06:03.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sounds good.
[06:04.600 --> 06:05.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, yeah.
[06:05.480 --> 06:06.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: So what's going on in New York?
[06:06.880 --> 06:09.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: Any more shootings in City Hall or have the printers calmed down?
[06:10.000 --> 06:13.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, there's been a decline in the City Hall shooting rate this week.
[06:14.980 --> 06:17.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, well that's a relief to hear.
[06:17.560 --> 06:22.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: The person who was shot is apparently lying in state in the City Hall building.
[06:22.780 --> 06:23.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: I heard that.
[06:23.700 --> 06:24.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: I heard about that.
[06:24.380 --> 06:27.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: And that's the first time I think in a long, long time...
[06:27.680 --> 06:29.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: 1918 was the last one.
[06:29.660 --> 06:30.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: 1918?
[06:30.480 --> 06:30.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[06:31.180 --> 06:32.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, that's a long time.
[06:32.760 --> 06:33.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: Anyone has...
[06:33.560 --> 06:34.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: Who was it then?
[06:34.720 --> 06:35.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: It was Lennon?
[06:36.220 --> 06:36.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: No.
[06:36.940 --> 06:37.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no.
[06:37.900 --> 06:39.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Lennon wasn't shot until 1980.
[06:40.240 --> 06:40.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Not that Lennon.
[06:41.060 --> 06:41.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you mean...
[06:42.540 --> 06:43.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Vladimir Lennon.
[06:43.560 --> 06:44.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, no.
[06:44.060 --> 06:45.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: He wasn't in New York when he got shot.
[06:46.620 --> 06:48.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: He was in Russia and he died there.
[06:49.080 --> 06:51.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, I think it was a former mayor.
[06:51.200 --> 06:52.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: But the number...
[06:52.080 --> 06:55.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: The people who were lying in state in City Hall, it's kind of an interesting mix.
[06:56.350 --> 06:58.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: You have a couple of former mayors.
[06:58.160 --> 07:00.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: You have a few ex-presidents.
[07:00.220 --> 07:01.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: John Quincy Adams.
[07:01.900 --> 07:02.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Abe Lincoln.
[07:03.140 --> 07:05.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Abe Lincoln made a tour, incidentally, after he died.
[07:05.560 --> 07:06.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: But that's another story.
[07:06.940 --> 07:07.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Ulysses S.
[07:07.680 --> 07:07.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Grant.
[07:08.540 --> 07:13.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: And General Abner Doubleday in 1895 lay in state at City Hall.
[07:14.520 --> 07:15.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, gosh.
[07:16.280 --> 07:18.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's something to know.
[07:19.580 --> 07:21.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: Anyone else joining us in the studio, Mike?
[07:21.600 --> 07:23.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, it's just me and Jim here.
[07:23.700 --> 07:23.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[07:24.180 --> 07:25.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: A quiet night tonight, then, I guess.
[07:26.820 --> 07:29.200]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, there's a lot going on.
[07:29.320 --> 07:31.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: And, of course, we'll be taking phone calls in just a little bit.
[07:31.680 --> 07:34.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: I read something in the paper today that really threw me for a loop.
[07:34.720 --> 07:43.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I was wondering if maybe the Onion is actually feeding stories to the International Hero Tribune, or if you could verify if this actually is the case.
[07:44.080 --> 07:54.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: But supposedly, according to this article that I got my hands on today, the Pentagon has proposed some kind of a...
[07:55.320 --> 07:57.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm not going to believe this.
[07:57.220 --> 08:08.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: An anonymous speculating network that would bet on future terrorist attacks, assassinations, and coups in what's known as an online futures market.
[08:08.060 --> 08:18.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: In other words, people would put money on a particular foreign leader or a particular city being the victim of either an assassination or a terrorist attack.
[08:18.700 --> 08:22.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: And if they bet correctly, they make a profit.
[08:23.740 --> 08:34.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: And apparently, this thing has caught the attention of a few politicians who somehow came to the conclusion that this is a bad idea.
[08:34.360 --> 08:46.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: In fact, Senator John Warner, the Virginia Republican who heads the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he had conferred with the program's director at the Pentagon and we mutually agreed that this thing should be stopped.
[08:47.900 --> 08:49.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: Have you guys heard anything about this?
[08:50.120 --> 08:51.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've heard a lot about this.
[08:51.640 --> 08:53.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: And in fact, I know a little about this.
[08:53.500 --> 08:55.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not exactly the way you describe it.
[08:55.760 --> 08:57.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's more a futures market.
[08:57.940 --> 09:01.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Essentially, what you would have is traders and they would...
[09:01.220 --> 09:03.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's take a specific example.
[09:03.520 --> 09:06.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Say, the Eiffel Tower will be bombed this year.
[09:06.790 --> 09:07.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right?
[09:07.260 --> 09:08.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just picking it on a review in Paris.
[09:08.760 --> 09:09.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[09:10.840 --> 09:21.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you would say that you put up so much money and the people who say it will be bombed this year put up so much money and then there are people who say it won't be bombed this year.
[09:22.850 --> 09:26.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: And say, 10 people say it will be bombed this year and 100 people say it won't.
[09:27.070 --> 09:32.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: If those 10 people are correct, they will get the money from the 100 people who are wrong.
[09:33.070 --> 09:35.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: So they will get 10 to 1 on their money.
[09:35.380 --> 09:46.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: If it's the other way around, The 100 people who say it won't be bombed, they will get the $10, we're saying every share is a dollar, of the 10 people who said that it would be bombed.
[09:46.480 --> 09:53.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the reason that this thing is useful, they've thrown it out with the bathwater already because it sounds horrible.
[09:53.660 --> 09:54.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, this ought to be good.
[09:54.810 --> 09:55.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: Tell us why this is useful.
[09:56.380 --> 09:56.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[09:57.020 --> 09:58.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: You have an incident like this.
[09:59.100 --> 10:13.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: And aside from speculators, who, you know, it's like the death pool, you know, what famous person is going to die this year, aside from speculators who are just pure and out and out gambling, you're going to have as many of them as one side is on the other because they don't know anything.
[10:13.790 --> 10:18.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: You will have guys who are in terrorist cells saying, let's make a couple extra bucks.
[10:18.810 --> 10:20.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you think they're that stupid?
[10:20.430 --> 10:20.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[10:21.140 --> 10:25.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because what you've got is hundreds and hundreds of people investing in this.
[10:25.280 --> 10:26.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: I use the term investing loosely.
[10:27.600 --> 10:30.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Participating in this, some of them will know something.
[10:30.760 --> 10:38.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you will also have people who, you know, visit the Eiffel Tower, they see that the security is, for argument's sake, lax.
[10:38.900 --> 10:42.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: They see that there's all sorts of strange things going on.
[10:42.480 --> 10:51.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: They see that there's a sudden influx of, oh, I don't know, Swedish terrorist-looking guys or Muslim terrorist-looking guys or Nigerian terrorist-looking guys.
[10:52.000 --> 10:56.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they bet, hey, you know, I'll bet on the Eiffel Tower going down later this year.
[10:57.360 --> 11:07.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: Jim, I cannot for the life of me figure out what these people are thinking in the Pentagon to come up with some bizarre scheme like this.
[11:07.500 --> 11:09.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, do they have too much time on their hands or something?
[11:09.520 --> 11:09.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do they have not enough to do?
[11:09.800 --> 11:11.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they have too much money on their hands.
[11:12.000 --> 11:12.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know that.
[11:12.380 --> 11:13.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not going to cost them that much.
[11:13.920 --> 11:15.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: They're looking at ways of making more money here.
[11:15.500 --> 11:16.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: They don't pay off.
[11:16.540 --> 11:16.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no.
[11:16.940 --> 11:21.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Pentagon doesn't make or lose any money on this aside from running a website.
[11:21.260 --> 11:21.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right?
[11:21.980 --> 11:23.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a small amount of money.
[11:23.900 --> 11:29.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: The money put up to buy the futures or sell the futures is by whoever wants to.
[11:29.080 --> 11:35.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever citizen or non-citizen or anybody with a computer who, you know, pays by PayPal or their credit card or whatever.
[11:36.420 --> 11:40.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, here's how they described it in the New York Times, reprinted in the Herald-Tribune.
[11:41.400 --> 11:47.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: This is according to senators and other people who have studied this thing.
[11:47.560 --> 11:55.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: You may think early on that Prime Minister X is going to be assassinated, so you buy the futures contracts for $0.05 each, which must make him feel really good.
[11:55.660 --> 12:01.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: As more people begin to think the person is going to be assassinated, the cost of the contract could go up to $0.50.
[12:01.700 --> 12:03.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: Imagine if we started doing this with George W.
[12:03.540 --> 12:04.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: Bush, you know.
[12:04.120 --> 12:06.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: Imagine if we started taking bets on him being assassinated.
[12:06.740 --> 12:11.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'll bet we'd get some visits from the Secret Service, regardless of whether or not we're running a futures market, but never mind that.
[12:11.960 --> 12:16.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: To continue here, the payoff, if he's assassinated, is $1 per future.
[12:16.240 --> 12:20.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: So if it comes to pass, those who bought at $0.05 make $0.95.
[12:20.000 --> 12:22.880]  [SPEAKER_18]: Those who bought at $0.50 make $0.50.
[12:23.400 --> 12:28.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: The senators also suggested that terrorists could participate because the traitors' identities will be unknown.
[12:28.840 --> 12:35.880]  [SPEAKER_18]: This appears to encourage terrorists to participate, either to profit from their terrorist activities or to bet against them in order to mislead U.S.
[12:36.000 --> 12:36.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: intelligence authorities.
[12:36.720 --> 12:46.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: They said in a letter to John Poindexter, who is the director of the Terrorism Information Awareness Office, formerly the... what was the former acronym?
[12:47.200 --> 12:48.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Total Information Awareness.
[12:48.420 --> 12:49.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: Total Information, yeah.
[12:49.920 --> 12:51.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: Still spells out TIA.
[12:51.800 --> 12:53.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's still a really, really bad idea.
[12:55.680 --> 12:57.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, this is just...
[12:58.640 --> 13:00.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: I really thought it was a joke when I read this.
[13:00.640 --> 13:01.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: I really thought it was a joke.
[13:01.520 --> 13:07.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: Only this government could come up with something so bizarre and so distasteful and so ridiculous.
[13:08.640 --> 13:11.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: You leave the country for a week and already you think the U.S.
[13:11.320 --> 13:12.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: government is going to make sense.
[13:12.880 --> 13:16.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, you know, I guess I'm just an expatriate waiting to happen.
[13:16.200 --> 13:17.140]  [SPEAKER_18]: This kind of thing.
[13:18.100 --> 13:23.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: Imagine... okay, imagine if, say, the Iraqi government had opened such a futures market.
[13:24.320 --> 13:26.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: What would we be doing to them that we haven't already done?
[13:27.360 --> 13:28.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, or any other government.
[13:28.620 --> 13:39.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Imagine if the New York City government had opened a futures market and all of a sudden, Othniel Askew had bet $10,000 that James Davis was going to be assassinated.
[13:39.680 --> 13:46.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Gee, if I was in the NYPD, I would have gotten a guy on Davis all immediately and maybe he'd still be alive today.
[13:47.200 --> 13:47.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay?
[13:47.800 --> 13:55.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do you really live in such a fantasy world that you think the person who's going to kill somebody is going to announce the fact and put all this money on it?
[13:55.340 --> 13:56.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do you really think that's how it works?
[13:56.720 --> 13:59.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Once in a while, that sort of crap happens.
[14:00.000 --> 14:02.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: Once in a while, yeah, maybe.
[14:02.240 --> 14:03.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: Once in a while, stars collide.
[14:03.520 --> 14:05.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: But I don't think it's enough to base a futures market on.
[14:05.920 --> 14:06.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I think it's...
[14:06.760 --> 14:07.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're not...
[14:07.400 --> 14:10.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're not generating this to make money in a futures market.
[14:10.400 --> 14:16.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're generating this to get more information through a number of sources, a consensus of information.
[14:17.440 --> 14:17.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right?
[14:18.080 --> 14:21.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry I'm not the math major I once was, so I could explain this more clearly.
[14:22.780 --> 14:25.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, you know, there are ways of pooling intelligence.
[14:26.720 --> 14:27.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: But having...
[14:27.160 --> 14:28.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: We've seen how well that works.
[14:28.700 --> 14:36.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: Having people literally bet on who's going to be assassinated or where a terrorist attack is going to occur, I just don't think that's the way to pool that intelligence.
[14:37.100 --> 14:39.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're pooling something, not intelligence.
[14:40.920 --> 14:43.700]  [SPEAKER_18]: Anyway, so that's the bit of humor for this week.
[14:43.980 --> 14:44.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: Boy.
[14:44.460 --> 14:45.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unfortunately, the program was canceled.
[14:46.080 --> 14:52.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: The program was canceled because I guess the public got wind of it, or most people realize just how silly this really is.
[14:53.220 --> 14:55.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: There's another story out of Iraq.
[14:56.240 --> 14:57.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: This is kind of interesting.
[14:57.580 --> 15:07.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: The Bahraini telephone company that set up a cellular network in Baghdad without getting permission from the United States has been ordered to cut off the service.
[15:07.920 --> 15:18.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: Bahrain Telecommunication, known as Batelco, had begun service July 22nd, carrying calls for people with phones on the GSM network standard common in the Middle East and Europe.
[15:18.160 --> 15:21.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: But Rashid Al-Snan, Batelco's...
[15:21.820 --> 15:23.700]  [SPEAKER_18]: Sorry, something just blew up across the street.
[15:24.240 --> 15:33.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: Batelco's regional operations manager said executives at Batelco had not thought they would require a license to get started and had planned to apply once licensing began.
[15:34.500 --> 15:35.140]  [SPEAKER_18]: The U.S.
[15:35.480 --> 15:44.700]  [SPEAKER_18]: authorities formally began seeking bids for three mobile phone licenses in Iraq on Sunday, telling prospective licensees they will be required to begin installation within 20 days of being hired.
[15:44.700 --> 16:03.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: I have this sinking feeling that they're not going to even allow GSM to be used in Iraq, that they're just going to go with TDMA, such as Sprint PCS or something like that, and just pretty much not allow companies like this Bahrainian company to participate in the first place.
[16:03.900 --> 16:05.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, why would they allow Bahrainians?
[16:05.940 --> 16:07.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is an American profit machine.
[16:08.140 --> 16:08.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's more.
[16:08.980 --> 16:09.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[16:10.180 --> 16:16.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: And it's probably a threat to our interest is to allow a foreign country to run a foreign telephone company.
[16:16.900 --> 16:17.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can't have that.
[16:17.840 --> 16:18.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: But regardless.
[16:20.100 --> 16:24.840]  [SPEAKER_18]: Mike, I understand you have something from the head of the FCC.
[16:24.840 --> 16:26.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: He sent us a letter.
[16:26.320 --> 16:26.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: Is that the case?
[16:27.120 --> 16:27.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not quite.
[16:28.000 --> 16:30.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: He wrote an editorial in the New York Times.
[16:30.640 --> 16:31.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, that's close enough.
[16:31.560 --> 16:32.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Close enough.
[16:32.420 --> 16:33.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Michael K.
[16:33.400 --> 16:45.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Powell, not to be confused with his father, Colin Powell, wrote an article on July 28th, which was Monday, maybe, called New Rules, Old Rhetoric.
[16:45.360 --> 16:47.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: And surprisingly, he's not...
[16:47.460 --> 16:51.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: The old rhetoric is not him, according to his article.
[16:52.340 --> 17:05.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's criticizing Congress for trying to roll back the market share monopoly rules that his body recently relaxed.
[17:05.660 --> 17:13.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Congress is looking at putting them back so that no entity can own more than 35% of the television stations.
[17:15.120 --> 17:19.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: He really thinks it should be more than that, 45%.
[17:19.620 --> 17:22.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so Congress is looking at changing it.
[17:22.800 --> 17:33.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he wrote this kind of strange editorial where he argues that, well, we don't care who owns the television stations because we've got cable.
[17:36.630 --> 17:38.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, you know, I actually saw this.
[17:39.030 --> 17:40.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: It was reprinted out here.
[17:41.810 --> 17:44.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: And his logic was just kind of bizarre.
[17:44.570 --> 17:49.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: He was saying things like, well, there's 300 cable channels and that's a lot more diversity.
[17:50.130 --> 18:03.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: What he doesn't seem to realize is that, you know, a cable channel or satellite channel that's only seen in a potential of, say, 10,000 homes is not the same thing as something that's seen in millions of homes as a must-carry.
[18:06.110 --> 18:14.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: The fact is there's so much media concentration that everybody is pretty much forced to carry the same things.
[18:14.250 --> 18:17.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: You see the same influence everywhere.
[18:17.430 --> 18:21.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: Clear Channel is dominant in every single city, it seems, in the country.
[18:21.870 --> 18:28.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: And those alternatives just don't have the same means to get the word out there.
[18:28.550 --> 18:30.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: And this kind of thing just makes it a whole lot worse.
[18:31.450 --> 18:32.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Michael K.
[18:32.650 --> 18:39.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Powell says that some say the problem is media concentration and point out that only five companies control 80% of what we see and hear.
[18:40.030 --> 18:47.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: In reality, those five companies own only 25% of more than 300 broadcast, satellite, and cable channels.
[18:47.490 --> 18:52.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: But because of their popularity, he claims, 80% of the viewing audience chooses to watch them.
[18:54.430 --> 18:57.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe it's because those are the only channels people know about.
[18:59.790 --> 19:03.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: the monopolies or not monopolies, as he argues.
[19:03.770 --> 19:09.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I think he says after that, it's not a good idea to regulate popularity or something bizarre.
[19:09.630 --> 19:12.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: He takes his leap in logic and expects a lot of people on the ride.
[19:13.130 --> 19:19.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: A competitive media marketplace must be our fundamental goal, but do we really want government to regulate what is popular?
[19:20.850 --> 19:26.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: That was never the case in the first place, but that's how you win these things, by clouding the issues.
[19:27.170 --> 19:29.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you also win it by being the commissioner of the FCC.
[19:30.230 --> 19:30.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: That helps.
[19:30.470 --> 19:31.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: That helps, too.
[19:31.310 --> 19:32.310]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, it certainly does.
[19:32.790 --> 19:34.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: But, you know, it's gotten a good reaction.
[19:34.410 --> 19:41.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's gotten a bad reaction for them, but a good reaction for people like us that have been speaking out against this sort of thing for years.
[19:42.090 --> 19:43.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think people have finally had enough.
[19:44.290 --> 19:56.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: It would be nice if we could push this back even further and go back to the days where it was possible to have alternative voices and, you know, not the same conglomeration everywhere of media.
[19:57.870 --> 19:59.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: But that's going to take a lot.
[19:59.290 --> 20:00.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's going to take a lot of effort.
[20:02.090 --> 20:04.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can listen to WBAI.
[20:04.790 --> 20:05.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[20:05.410 --> 20:08.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, there should be a WBAI in every city, I think, or an equivalent.
[20:09.790 --> 20:10.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: Several, perhaps.
[20:11.450 --> 20:12.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sounds good to me.
[20:12.750 --> 20:14.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, okay, we heard from Michael Powell.
[20:14.230 --> 20:14.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Anything else?
[20:15.130 --> 20:16.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's all I have.
[20:16.070 --> 20:16.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[20:17.090 --> 20:17.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, I should...
[20:18.630 --> 20:20.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'd like to read some listener mail.
[20:20.270 --> 20:21.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know what most of the listener mail is about.
[20:22.350 --> 20:25.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: So I don't want to spend too much time on this, but lovely...
[20:25.770 --> 20:28.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: For those of you who missed the show last week, oh boy, you missed a good one.
[20:29.070 --> 20:34.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: But you might want to pull up the archive and listen to our little debate.
[20:35.050 --> 20:44.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: And, of course, I'm talking about the button issue, the John Gilmore wearing the suspected terrorist button on British Air and getting booted off the flight as a result.
[20:45.010 --> 20:52.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: Man, well, most of the listeners seem to understand what I was trying to say, but I don't think most of the people who wrote in got it.
[20:52.690 --> 20:57.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: And certainly most of the people that I talked to in person did not understand what I was saying.
[20:57.810 --> 20:58.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: I got...
[20:58.870 --> 20:59.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, it's amazing.
[20:59.670 --> 21:00.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: Everyone should try this.
[21:00.430 --> 21:01.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: Everyone should try this as an exercise.
[21:01.810 --> 21:06.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: Try disagreeing with people around you to see how they respond to it.
[21:06.830 --> 21:13.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you may be very surprised by how people respond when you disagree or something that they believe you should agree with.
[21:14.370 --> 21:20.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't arrive at conclusions by simply saying, well, this is what I should say, so I'm going to say it.
[21:20.610 --> 21:24.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: I arrive at conclusions by thinking it through and arriving at a conclusion.
[21:24.390 --> 21:26.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: And sometimes that brings me to the same place as other people.
[21:26.890 --> 21:27.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Sometimes it doesn't.
[21:27.810 --> 21:30.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: And this time it didn't.
[21:30.190 --> 21:36.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: I said that I understood why they reached the conclusion they did.
[21:37.230 --> 21:43.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I said it was childish and immature for John Gilmore to refuse to take the button off and have the flight turned around and everybody's lives disrupted.
[21:44.310 --> 21:49.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: And boy, man, some of the responses I got in person were unbelievable.
[21:49.070 --> 21:52.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: People saying, I've turned conservative, I'm no longer a liberal.
[21:53.150 --> 21:56.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, basically, very few people.
[21:56.090 --> 22:01.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: Mike, I have to give you credit because I think you're the only person I disagreed with who didn't turn us into a personal issue.
[22:01.450 --> 22:02.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: Wait a minute.
[22:03.270 --> 22:03.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't.
[22:04.670 --> 22:07.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: You said that you were out-liberalizing me, I believe.
[22:07.730 --> 22:10.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's not the same as saying that it's personal.
[22:11.050 --> 22:17.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: See, what that's doing is that's making me think that maybe I'm not being, you know, true to my liberal beliefs.
[22:17.710 --> 22:18.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: If someone like you can come along...
[22:26.090 --> 22:30.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: liberal-ish or at all, I think it's more a libertarian issue, but I'm not even going to get into that because that's like, it's clouding the issue.
[22:31.070 --> 22:37.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: The thing is, every one of these points should be thought out as, you know, an individual point.
[22:37.770 --> 22:40.310]  [SPEAKER_18]: You should reach a conclusion based on logic.
[22:40.530 --> 22:47.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I used the logic that was in my head to reach my conclusion, and a lot of people just didn't like that.
[22:47.650 --> 22:50.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: And one person accused me of being afraid of terrorists.
[22:51.150 --> 23:00.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: Like, you know, that's something unusual, but it's got nothing to do with what I was saying because what I was saying was simply taking the situation that happened.
[23:00.490 --> 23:03.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: I was not injecting myself into that.
[23:03.530 --> 23:12.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: I was saying, this is what happened on that airplane, and that's the result, and this is what he should have done under that situation.
[23:12.150 --> 23:16.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: I never at any point said that I agreed with what the airline said.
[23:16.670 --> 23:22.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: However, most of the people who wrote in said pretty much that I agreed with it, that it was me.
[23:23.070 --> 23:24.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: One person said I had to lighten up.
[23:24.970 --> 23:27.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: I never said I didn't think the button wasn't funny.
[23:27.270 --> 23:30.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, if I was sitting next to somebody like that, I don't know.
[23:30.810 --> 23:32.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: I might have a very interesting conversation with them.
[23:32.670 --> 23:34.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: But the point is, somebody was upset by it.
[23:35.210 --> 23:44.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: And the point is, the very true fact that I think a lot of people missed is that when you're on an airplane and the captain tells you to do something, you do it.
[23:45.150 --> 23:45.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: Simple as that.
[23:46.130 --> 23:47.330]  [SPEAKER_18]: You don't get into a debate.
[23:47.490 --> 23:51.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because as soon as you do that, you're jeopardizing everybody, regardless of whether or not you're right.
[23:51.890 --> 23:55.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: And it's just very immature and childish to do anything otherwise.
[23:56.190 --> 23:57.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can argue about it afterwards.
[23:57.950 --> 24:09.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: If the person does something unreasonable, if the captain does something unreasonable, you argue about it then after the plane is touched down, everything is over, you don't start a big debate while they're trying to get the thing off the ground or, God forbid,
[24:09.710 --> 24:12.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: while it's 35,000 feet above the ocean.
[24:13.050 --> 24:16.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, you know, that was my perspective there.
[24:16.170 --> 24:22.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I, you know, this whole week, people have tried to convince me that I'm losing my mind.
[24:23.210 --> 24:25.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: They've come to me saying, oh, my God, you've gone crazy.
[24:25.830 --> 24:26.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're saying all these things.
[24:26.970 --> 24:31.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I had to actually go to complete strangers and ask them, am I losing my mind?
[24:31.410 --> 24:32.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: Does this make any sense?
[24:32.270 --> 24:46.850]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I looked at it on the Internet, and I saw that a lot of people reached the same conclusions based on uncertain facts, namely the fact that airlines can basically judge if you're causing a disruption, and if that's the case, they can kick you off the plane.
[24:46.970 --> 24:47.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: Simple as that.
[24:47.590 --> 24:50.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: So the solution is, don't cause a disruption.
[24:51.370 --> 25:07.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's got nothing to do with your freedom of speech rights, because you have every right to wear a button, you have every right to wear a shirt, but the point is, when you're in a private establishment, like a restaurant, or in this case, an airplane, they can set certain rules in that particular case,
[25:08.150 --> 25:10.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: and either you abide by them or you leave.
[25:10.690 --> 25:23.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: And the problem is, when you're in an airplane above the ocean, you can't really leave very easily, and that's where, you know, lives become endangered if there's any kind of a conflict or people are paying too much attention to something else.
[25:23.570 --> 25:26.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: One thing that happened, a pilot came out of the cabin.
[25:26.290 --> 25:35.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: This was incredibly stupid of British Air to do this, but, you know, that's your typical diversion thing, where somebody causes a disruption, the captain comes out, and all the hijackers burst into the cabin.
[25:35.810 --> 25:45.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: So right there, you see that, you know, and this is probably British Air stupidity, that a situation of complete carelessness was...
[25:47.890 --> 25:48.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello?
[25:50.130 --> 25:51.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: We seem to have lost you.
[25:53.010 --> 25:55.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: That service we went through, maybe they have a time load.
[25:55.770 --> 25:56.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe.
[25:56.470 --> 25:58.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's about 25, 30 minutes.
[25:59.130 --> 25:59.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Could be.
[25:59.830 --> 26:00.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, so...
[26:00.730 --> 26:01.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, there it goes.
[26:02.010 --> 26:05.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, what are we going to do is we're going to hang up this phone, maybe.
[26:05.810 --> 26:07.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but pressing the button doesn't work.
[26:08.970 --> 26:12.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so, hopefully, Max will show us how to hang up the phone.
[26:14.530 --> 26:14.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks.
[26:15.110 --> 26:19.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, and then what we're going to do is we're going to just dial direct.
[26:19.850 --> 26:22.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, Jim, if you could say something while I dial.
[26:22.470 --> 26:25.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, in order to mask the, uh, the sound of the dialing?
[26:25.330 --> 26:28.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, in order to mask the dead air that will occur while I'm dialing.
[26:28.850 --> 26:32.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'll, I'll come up with a little semi-related, uh, tidbit.
[26:32.330 --> 26:34.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I'll, or at least I'll try to.
[26:34.930 --> 26:45.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, actually, I think, uh, Emmanuel's argument, uh, more thought out, uh, now a week later is, uh, much more reasonable than the, the heated, uh, stuff we had going on last week.
[26:46.130 --> 26:47.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Although I still disagree with him.
[26:47.890 --> 26:52.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, I, I'm, I'm a little hurt that he thought I was personally excoriating him.
[26:53.050 --> 26:54.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I didn't mean to.
[26:54.730 --> 26:56.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: If I gave that impression to the listeners, I'm sorry.
[26:57.070 --> 26:58.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: If I gave that impression to Emmanuel, I'm sorry.
[26:59.370 --> 27:01.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, little tidbit to fill the dead air.
[27:01.850 --> 27:18.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: The current issue of Playboy with the, uh, girls of Starbucks on the cover has, uh, a listing of just about every government 800 number you would want to call in order to report, uh, your friends, your neighbors, your enemies, and, oh, terrorists to whatever,
[27:18.630 --> 27:21.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: uh, federal agency you had in mind.
[27:21.250 --> 27:30.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, of course, the infamous TIPS program, its current offshoot, it mentions that their 800 number is no longer alive, but you can still do it on the web.
[27:30.990 --> 27:36.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: And there's something to report truckers to, uh, the Interstate Commerce Commission.
[27:36.550 --> 27:43.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, there's something to, to, to report, uh, to the Coast Guard about suspicious activities at the ports and rivers of our nation.
[27:43.810 --> 27:45.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: You name it, there's a phone number.
[27:45.950 --> 27:56.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, and, uh, the great part is, if you're not into, uh, naked women, it's at the front of the, uh, of the latest issue of Playboy with the women of Starbucks on the cover.
[27:56.230 --> 28:05.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: So you can avoid the naked women and just, you know, look at these 800 numbers and you can do your best to, uh, make this world a safer place.
[28:05.650 --> 28:07.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think we have Emmanuel back.
[28:10.950 --> 28:14.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're, we're, uh, we're playing with the phone as we love most.
[28:17.090 --> 28:18.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, the next voice you hear?
[28:19.830 --> 28:21.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, are you back there?
[28:21.530 --> 28:22.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes, I am.
[28:22.250 --> 28:24.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: After being mysteriously cut off, I have returned.
[28:24.470 --> 28:24.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.
[28:25.270 --> 28:26.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sounds suspicious to me.
[28:26.690 --> 28:28.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: At what point in my diatribe was I lost?
[28:30.390 --> 28:32.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I'm sorry, I was doing filler, so I don't remember.
[28:34.230 --> 28:37.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: You, you were, uh, talking about the cabin.
[28:38.290 --> 28:40.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna spend any more time on this.
[28:40.470 --> 28:47.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: So let me, let me just conclude by saying that when people disagree on something, they should stick to the issues and not try to define people.
[28:47.550 --> 28:54.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm looking at letters here, uh, one person saying I'm getting old and conservative and, I mean, that's, that's, that's not the case.
[28:55.470 --> 29:00.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's, that's, and it's really, you know, completely inappropriate to try and label people in that way.
[29:00.810 --> 29:07.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, if, uh, if you disagree with somebody, stick to the facts, stick to the facts of the case, uh, argue your points, you might learn something.
[29:07.750 --> 29:10.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: You might not, or I might learn something.
[29:10.430 --> 29:19.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, but, um, what I learned out of all this was that I know a lot of intolerant people who do not, uh, accept anything that deviates from their expectations of you.
[29:20.090 --> 29:29.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, and it's, it's kind of sad to realize that, but I also, I, I know a lot of other people who are more open-minded and, uh, they come from surprising backgrounds.
[29:29.610 --> 29:37.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: So it's, uh, it's an interesting exercise, but, uh, regardless, um, it's, it's, it's been a, it's been an interesting, uh, little case here.
[29:37.470 --> 29:49.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm sure we'll hear more about it in the future, as well as some of the other cases that, uh, have been going on, including the, the one down in Atlanta, uh, the story, which unfortunately we neglected because of this other story, uh, about the guy who was,
[29:49.490 --> 29:52.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: uh, questioned by the FBI for reading a particular article.
[29:53.290 --> 30:08.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, we got some mail on that, not nearly the same amount of mail, unfortunately, which I think it's a much more important story, but the mail that we, we, we did get about this, uh, was, um, uh, basically saying that, uh, this, this has a lot of, of, of,
[30:08.250 --> 30:09.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: uh, evidence behind it.
[30:09.990 --> 30:16.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: A lot of people are saying that, yes, this, uh, this person is well-known, uh, this, this magazine that he printed the article in is well-known.
[30:17.430 --> 30:20.850]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, nobody has gotten a comment from the FBI.
[30:21.050 --> 30:24.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Of course, that's possible that, uh, we may never get a comment from the FBI as to what exactly happened.
[30:25.150 --> 30:30.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, but, uh, the fact seems to be that that story really did happen, and that's what we should be focusing on.
[30:32.910 --> 30:35.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you mentioned the button, and the phones just light up.
[30:37.010 --> 30:38.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, bring them on.
[30:38.670 --> 30:40.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: But, you know, the funny thing is, B.A.I.
[30:40.450 --> 30:42.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: listeners seem to get it, and I think that's because they're listening.
[30:42.830 --> 30:47.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: They listen to what people say, and, uh, I think they, they, they realize what I didn't say.
[30:47.830 --> 30:51.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: I, I did not say that I agreed with what the airline did.
[30:51.450 --> 30:54.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: What I'd said was they had the right to do it.
[30:54.430 --> 31:03.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: And when something like that happens, you know, the time for arguing, it, it, it just, there is nothing to be gained from that other than inconveniencing all these people and getting them against you.
[31:04.470 --> 31:07.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: And, um, I don't know why somebody would want to do that.
[31:07.250 --> 31:08.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: It doesn't make sense to me.
[31:09.070 --> 31:09.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[31:09.550 --> 31:10.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Shall we take some calls?
[31:10.870 --> 31:14.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[31:14.390 --> 31:16.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, yes, I guess we should take some calls.
[31:16.390 --> 31:16.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[31:17.850 --> 31:18.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello, you're on the air.
[31:20.210 --> 31:20.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello?
[31:21.010 --> 31:21.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello.
[31:22.110 --> 31:22.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, wow.
[31:22.630 --> 31:23.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: I actually made it through.
[31:23.970 --> 31:28.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, I just wanted to say, a good call, Emmanuel, on the, uh, the airplane thing.
[31:29.310 --> 31:31.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, I, I agreed with you on that one.
[31:31.990 --> 31:35.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't think you should, uh, necessarily explain yourself so much.
[31:36.030 --> 31:51.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, I did want to take issue with, uh, the, it seemed like kind of a feature reaction, uh, against the, the ghoulish sort of, uh, um, futures market idea that the Pentagon came up with.
[31:52.190 --> 32:08.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, the idea, the math behind it is actually more of a sociological study, uh, that when people are asked something, if you ask a large population of people something that they don't quite, that nobody would really know the answer to.
[32:08.650 --> 32:16.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think the, the example I saw from, saw from Wired News was, uh, how many people died in the 1918, uh, influenza epidemic.
[32:16.790 --> 32:25.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, even though people have no idea what the answer is, when you tally a whole bunch of information on it, a whole bunch of people's opinions, generally it's going to be pretty close to the actual answer.
[32:26.050 --> 32:27.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think that's what they were going for.
[32:29.150 --> 32:30.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: How does that work?
[32:31.310 --> 32:32.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry?
[32:32.330 --> 32:36.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: I asked how that worked and then we were getting this weird buzzing noise.
[32:36.950 --> 32:38.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's a GSM noise.
[32:39.450 --> 32:42.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, yeah, probably just my crappy cell phone.
[32:42.950 --> 32:43.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's GSM.
[32:44.110 --> 32:46.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, someone's making a GSM call near this phone apparently.
[32:48.170 --> 32:48.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[32:49.230 --> 32:55.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, we, what we want to know is what's the theory behind a whole group of people who don't know something somehow.
[32:55.950 --> 33:06.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: The theory is that many people have partial knowledge, um, that you'll have outlying, a lot of, you'll have the outlying guesses will get filtered out.
[33:06.970 --> 33:18.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the, sort of the bell curve concept that there's enough people that know a little bit about something that if you average it all together, the average is going to be pretty close to the answer if you get a large population.
[33:18.550 --> 33:24.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: So in other words, in other words, let's say that the, the number is like 60 million, which I believe is close to the number.
[33:24.850 --> 33:28.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so you'll have some people who don't know anything saying like 3 million.
[33:28.650 --> 33:32.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: You'll have some people who don't know anything saying like 1 billion and those will average out.
[33:32.750 --> 33:37.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: And what you'll get is the people who actually know averaging around the right answer.
[33:37.350 --> 33:37.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is that the idea?
[33:38.330 --> 33:42.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think, oh, I think you're going to have a lot of people that know, that have a little bit of an inkling.
[33:42.330 --> 33:50.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: And when you take all those inklings added together, the outliers Actually, don't factor in as much as the people that do have a shred of information.
[33:50.830 --> 33:52.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: What if Donald Trump comes along?
[33:52.430 --> 33:53.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm actually going into it.
[33:53.870 --> 33:55.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm going to lose you guys.
[33:55.510 --> 33:56.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: But thanks for the show.
[33:56.930 --> 33:57.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: I really enjoyed it.
[33:57.930 --> 33:58.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thanks for calling.
[33:58.790 --> 34:03.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: What if Donald Trump comes along and decides that he wants to bet against, say, Phoenix, Arizona or something?
[34:04.750 --> 34:11.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: All of a sudden, you know, everyone's afraid to go there because there's all this possibility of a terrorist attack because some idiot might bet all this money.
[34:12.010 --> 34:13.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: You would see one guy betting all that money.
[34:14.310 --> 34:17.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, but you don't know if it's one guy or a thousand guys because it's anonymous.
[34:18.030 --> 34:18.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I see that.
[34:19.470 --> 34:20.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you can correct for that.
[34:20.910 --> 34:22.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: I just don't understand the need for something like this.
[34:22.750 --> 34:27.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: It seems so... is this what our intelligence has come to, that we have to rely on anonymous people betting on something?
[34:27.770 --> 34:29.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's an outside-the-box way of thinking.
[34:30.710 --> 34:33.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: We need all the thinking we can get.
[34:34.350 --> 34:36.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: I guess so, with the kind of people running things.
[34:37.150 --> 34:37.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[34:38.970 --> 34:39.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, you're on the air.
[34:39.990 --> 34:45.970]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, I'd like to mention, something like this betting thing, this happened back in the 40s.
[34:46.090 --> 34:52.370]  [SPEAKER_17]: Remember the guy they made up, Nostradamus, who, you know, that person that they made up, that philosopher?
[34:53.490 --> 34:55.170]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's what they did back in the 40s.
[34:56.470 --> 34:56.870]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes.
[34:57.270 --> 34:57.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, Rebel.
[34:58.210 --> 34:58.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[35:00.250 --> 35:01.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, you're on the air.
[35:01.950 --> 35:02.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, hello.
[35:02.610 --> 35:02.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[35:03.510 --> 35:07.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I don't think people get the idea behind this Pentagon thing with the futures.
[35:07.590 --> 35:10.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're basically privatizing an assassination, in my view.
[35:10.750 --> 35:12.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's an interesting take on it.
[35:12.530 --> 35:13.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: That may be true.
[35:13.610 --> 35:16.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you just, you know, basically, who has the insider information?
[35:17.310 --> 35:28.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, in other words, if I'm sitting under my rooftop with a high-powered rifle and Hillary Clinton walks by, I will quickly bet all my cash on she's not going to make it to the end of the week.
[35:28.950 --> 35:30.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, who knows the information?
[35:30.910 --> 35:35.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, like how much money is being contributed, you know, onto the table.
[35:36.030 --> 35:46.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, like the example I came through in the heat of argument earlier, if you suddenly spot a big bet, that tells you where to allocate your resources.
[35:47.270 --> 35:47.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, yeah.
[35:48.150 --> 35:54.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, all these scandals, you know, just attributed to the Pentagon, which, you know, is at a prioritization these days anyway.
[35:54.450 --> 36:01.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, so I, in my opinion, you know, I don't know if I'm being, you know, sort of non-positive, but,
[36:05.410 --> 36:05.770]  you know.
[36:06.030 --> 36:07.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a dark thing either way.
[36:07.830 --> 36:08.230]  Okay.
[36:08.670 --> 36:09.090]  Thanks, man.
[36:09.570 --> 36:10.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for calling.
[36:11.290 --> 36:13.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, and let's try up here.
[36:13.890 --> 36:14.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, you're on the air.
[36:14.830 --> 36:15.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, hi.
[36:16.190 --> 36:17.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: What's on your mind?
[36:17.390 --> 36:18.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, two things.
[36:18.550 --> 36:29.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: A, the first example that was given was that you get a bunch of people who don't know anything and the, those that don't get filtered out and the cream rises to the surface.
[36:29.490 --> 36:30.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: That was one argument.
[36:30.790 --> 36:51.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is, might be true of something in which nobody really has a vested interest in, but in terrorist attacks, obviously, the only people that would really know anything and would be betting in this thing would be people, would be people who would have,
[36:51.550 --> 37:00.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: would have absolutely no knowledge, and the others would probably be terrorists themselves who would have some knowledge.
[37:00.350 --> 37:05.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, as you started this, I thought that was the argument you were going to bring up, and I was trying to think of a counter-argument to that.
[37:05.950 --> 37:07.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Suppose you owned a skyscraper.
[37:08.150 --> 37:09.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, just one other thing, okay?
[37:09.710 --> 37:09.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
[37:10.330 --> 37:23.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the other thing is, let's assume, you know, somebody wanted to make a pile of money and said that the, the next target is, uh, um, Monaco, right?
[37:24.050 --> 37:26.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they, they planted some bomb there or something.
[37:26.950 --> 37:31.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, they actually create incidents, uh, to collect.
[37:32.990 --> 37:33.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: True.
[37:33.870 --> 37:34.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Not something the U.S.
[37:34.870 --> 37:35.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: government is new to.
[37:37.450 --> 37:38.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, right.
[37:39.510 --> 37:48.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: I just, you know, to me, this, this, this says that we have absolutely no idea what's going to happen, and we have to pretty much open it up to the public to help us find out what's going to happen next.
[37:48.050 --> 37:51.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but the theory that the first, the other person said, I can see it.
[37:51.470 --> 37:53.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you have a large pool of people.
[37:53.670 --> 37:59.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Most of them don't have any idea, but a certain percentage do.
[37:59.750 --> 38:01.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: So they're the ones that don't get filtered out.
[38:02.110 --> 38:06.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: But this is a question of how many people died in Krakatoa or something.
[38:06.690 --> 38:12.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nobody has a vested, a real vested interest, uh, other than answering, uh, the quiz question.
[38:12.510 --> 38:24.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: In, uh, this scenario, obviously, the only people that are going to know anything are either, uh, government intelligence, who, which is doubtful, but, or the terrorists themselves.
[38:24.970 --> 38:28.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, let me, let me come up with my, uh, my theoretical counter example.
[38:29.110 --> 38:33.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: Suppose you own a skyscraper, and you're really paranoid, and you're like a militia type.
[38:34.170 --> 38:36.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you've equipped it with anti-aircraft guns.
[38:36.810 --> 38:45.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, suppose that it comes up, is, uh, you know, the building at 5 Main Street going to be attacked by a plane flying into it.
[38:45.530 --> 38:50.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, if I'm the owner of that building, and I've just installed, uh, anti-aircraft guns, I'm going to bet heavily, no.
[38:52.210 --> 38:55.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, so you do have more than just terrorists betting on this.
[38:55.990 --> 39:12.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you have a paranoid person who doesn't know anything, other than the fact that he's, that he's paranoid and has no particular, uh, knowledge about, uh, whether he's going to be attacked or not, other than the fact that he's fearful and has installed battleships and anti-aircraft guns.
[39:12.410 --> 39:18.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, I mean, he would be filtered out, because he has no particular knowledge other than, uh, paranoia.
[39:19.590 --> 39:22.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that, that doesn't really counter that argument.
[39:22.330 --> 39:31.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, he's, he's filtered, the, the, the filtering out is not done by, by intelligent software, by people, uh, uh, reading this and saying, okay, let's filter this guy out.
[39:31.330 --> 39:36.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: What it's, what it is, is it's just, uh, uh, a mathematical sort of thing.
[39:36.630 --> 39:43.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: You get so many people who are wrong on one side, they counteract the people who are wrong in the opposite direction.
[39:43.090 --> 39:52.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, but this, this scenario that you gave of the guy who's paranoid, uh, he doesn't have any knowledge, uh, he, he's just the same as anybody else who doesn't have any idea.
[39:52.430 --> 39:56.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right, but he knows it's going to be difficult, because he's installed these guns, supposedly.
[39:56.650 --> 39:58.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, yeah, but he can install guns like that secretly.
[39:58.890 --> 39:59.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: But for no reason.
[39:59.810 --> 40:00.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: You never know.
[40:00.510 --> 40:01.030]  [SPEAKER_18]: For no reason.
[40:01.030 --> 40:03.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: This, all right, it's a theoretical argument.
[40:03.550 --> 40:06.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, here's, here's something that I think no one has really thought of, okay?
[40:06.970 --> 40:07.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[40:07.970 --> 40:12.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: Imagine that this system was in place before September 11th, 2001.
[40:12.710 --> 40:16.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: And where would a lot of people have bet that a terrorist attack was going to take place?
[40:16.590 --> 40:18.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: Where a terrorist attack took place once before?
[40:18.430 --> 40:21.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: The largest city in the world, the largest building in the largest city in the world.
[40:21.430 --> 40:25.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, a lot of people would bet that something would happen there.
[40:25.730 --> 40:29.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: Tell me, what is the mood of those people on September 12th?
[40:29.930 --> 40:32.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Would they get paid double for hitting the jackpot?
[40:32.350 --> 40:34.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: They get paid a lot of money because they won.
[40:34.470 --> 40:35.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: What is their mood?
[40:35.210 --> 40:36.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: Are they celebrating now?
[40:37.190 --> 40:37.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: No.
[40:37.830 --> 40:40.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: What kind of people are we going to create out of this?
[40:40.450 --> 40:44.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you would have gotten, you would have not only gotten the late terrorists.
[40:45.930 --> 40:51.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: You would not have only gotten the late terrorists betting, you would have gotten a lot of people who actually died in the World Trade Center betting.
[40:52.030 --> 40:54.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: That one guy that was...
[40:54.610 --> 40:58.330]  [SPEAKER_18]: I doubt very many people would bet on their own building and then show up to work.
[41:00.070 --> 41:02.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's a crazy... you know, it's a stupid thing, really.
[41:02.850 --> 41:03.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's really...
[41:03.230 --> 41:05.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's really... you know, I'm amazed we're having this conversation, to be honest.
[41:05.910 --> 41:15.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I mean, it just shows how stupid these people are because this has... this does not have any basis, in fact, of mathematical reality that it's a... that it would show anything.
[41:15.510 --> 41:18.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: It would show anything... it would show something only if terrorists were betting.
[41:19.230 --> 41:20.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then it would show something, sure.
[41:21.330 --> 41:29.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Like, Saddam Hussein says the Con Edison building is going to be blown up and he sends someone over and... and so...
[41:29.770 --> 41:34.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: Somewhere out there, there has to be a math major who has some sort of expertise on this.
[41:34.130 --> 41:37.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: So please come to the 2600 meeting this Friday in the City Corps building...
[41:37.790 --> 41:38.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: I bet that it's going to be...
[41:38.850 --> 41:40.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: And explain this in some detail to us.
[41:40.850 --> 41:43.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to place a bet that... no, I'm just kidding.
[41:43.530 --> 41:45.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, I mean, it's not... it's not a pure math question.
[41:45.830 --> 41:49.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a math and sociology and all these other things.
[41:49.090 --> 41:59.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not even because people... betting... in the first example that the caller gave was that, okay, how many people know how many light bulbs it took to screw in, whatever.
[41:59.770 --> 42:02.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: So there are a number of people that know these things.
[42:02.530 --> 42:03.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Most don't.
[42:03.530 --> 42:08.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: So the people that know will... their reality will come to the service and it will indicate some knowledge.
[42:09.230 --> 42:11.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now here, you have a vested interest.
[42:12.290 --> 42:20.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the only way you're going to get a knowledgeable result is if people with some knowledge are betting.
[42:20.550 --> 42:22.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: And who are the people with knowledge?
[42:23.270 --> 42:37.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, mostly, you know, people with very good common sense, maybe like the WTC was pretty obvious because it happened before, or terrorists themselves.
[42:37.750 --> 42:39.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: Or government officials.
[42:39.650 --> 42:39.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: Exactly.
[42:39.850 --> 42:41.330]  [SPEAKER_18]: Or all kinds of people with intelligence.
[42:41.570 --> 42:42.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thanks for your call.
[42:42.990 --> 42:43.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: I wonder if you're getting...
[42:45.790 --> 42:47.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm going to read something before we go on to the next call.
[42:48.730 --> 42:50.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: If I can do that.
[42:50.230 --> 42:50.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[42:50.950 --> 42:51.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[42:52.290 --> 42:55.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: This is something a reader sent in about the Department of Homeland Security.
[42:55.650 --> 43:00.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: And this sort of fits into the Keystone top mentality that we seem to be seeing everywhere.
[43:01.410 --> 43:04.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: As an unemployed recent college graduate, I've been exploring my options.
[43:05.370 --> 43:10.330]  [SPEAKER_18]: At a recent career fair at the University of Buffalo, a number of interesting companies and organizations were present.
[43:10.830 --> 43:19.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: Defense contractors such as Northrop Grumman, government groups such as DOJ, FBI, IRS, and the Department of Homeland Security were all present.
[43:19.910 --> 43:28.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: The DHS, Department of Homeland Security, had a sign on their table with bragging about tremendous funding, outstanding career opportunities in all areas.
[43:28.690 --> 43:32.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: When I presented a resume for their consideration, this is what I was told.
[43:32.950 --> 43:35.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, we're not allowed to accept any resumes right now.
[43:35.710 --> 43:36.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: You have to check the website.
[43:37.230 --> 43:40.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, I asked, what are you doing hiring at a college career fair?
[43:41.010 --> 43:43.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: She responded, we don't know what we're going to be doing yet.
[43:43.490 --> 43:46.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: We don't know what we will need in terms of staffing or who we will need to employ.
[43:47.170 --> 43:48.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: We don't know what is happening yet.
[43:48.470 --> 43:49.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Please continue to check the website.
[43:50.830 --> 43:53.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: This organization was created in 2001.
[43:54.090 --> 43:57.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: The question this reader has is, what have they been doing?
[43:58.570 --> 44:00.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: That comes from Steve C.
[44:00.470 --> 44:01.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thanks very much for that letter.
[44:01.870 --> 44:04.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you notice who's hiring these days.
[44:04.970 --> 44:05.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: Who's hiring these days?
[44:05.930 --> 44:09.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: The defense contractors of the Department of Homeland, whatever they're called.
[44:10.170 --> 44:10.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Homeland.
[44:10.770 --> 44:12.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: I can't believe I said Homeland on the air.
[44:14.590 --> 44:16.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: And no one else.
[44:16.450 --> 44:17.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: You mean this department?
[44:17.310 --> 44:17.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: Department of Homeland Security?
[44:18.190 --> 44:18.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[44:18.870 --> 44:20.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, but you can't give them your resume, apparently.
[44:21.090 --> 44:22.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, maybe they're not hiring.
[44:22.250 --> 44:23.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: But all the defense contractors are.
[44:24.190 --> 44:24.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[44:25.090 --> 44:27.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, let's take another phone call.
[44:28.270 --> 44:29.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, you're on the air.
[44:29.770 --> 44:30.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hello.
[44:30.490 --> 44:30.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[44:30.750 --> 44:37.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, no one seems to have mentioned the huge short positions that were established in American Airlines and United Airlines previous to 9-11.
[44:38.250 --> 44:39.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: These people had advanced knowledge.
[44:40.150 --> 44:41.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: They profited mightily.
[44:41.330 --> 44:42.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: They were investigated.
[44:42.450 --> 44:44.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: No one's mentioned it in this whole case.
[44:44.810 --> 44:46.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, what exactly are you referring to?
[44:46.830 --> 44:47.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: Stock sales.
[44:48.190 --> 44:48.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: They were huge.
[44:49.290 --> 44:52.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hundreds of thousands of shares, millions of shares sold short in airline stocks.
[44:53.330 --> 44:56.030]  [SPEAKER_18]: United Airlines and American Airlines previous to 9-11.
[44:56.550 --> 44:57.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: In the month before.
[44:57.910 --> 44:59.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: The two airlines that were affected.
[44:59.530 --> 44:59.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, yeah.
[45:00.290 --> 45:00.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: They were all...
[45:00.870 --> 45:01.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's well known.
[45:01.470 --> 45:02.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's all in the papers.
[45:02.810 --> 45:03.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: All before 9-11.
[45:04.410 --> 45:06.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right after 9-11, they noticed it.
[45:06.470 --> 45:08.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: The SEC investigated it.
[45:08.350 --> 45:10.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: Maybe it's in that 28 pages.
[45:11.430 --> 45:13.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: But no one seems to have mentioned it yet.
[45:13.770 --> 45:15.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, there's fewer about this.
[45:16.130 --> 45:16.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: Future market.
[45:17.150 --> 45:20.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, if no one's mentioned it, you say it's been in all the papers, but no one's mentioned it.
[45:20.370 --> 45:20.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, no.
[45:20.970 --> 45:22.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's been in the papers.
[45:22.010 --> 45:27.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Whereas, if you go back to 2001, if you go back in September, October 2001, you'll find it.
[45:28.210 --> 45:29.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's well reported.
[45:29.110 --> 45:30.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: You'll find people remembering it now.
[45:31.130 --> 45:32.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: No question about it.
[45:32.390 --> 45:33.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: Millions of shares.
[45:33.430 --> 45:35.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: It was, you know, and the Times had stories about it.
[45:36.070 --> 45:37.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: This was no hidden fact.
[45:37.450 --> 45:40.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: What was the explanation that they came up with at the time?
[45:41.070 --> 45:42.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: They were tracking these people down.
[45:42.710 --> 45:43.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: They wanted their identities.
[45:43.590 --> 45:44.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: They were going all over the world trying to find them.
[45:45.110 --> 45:46.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Who had these short positions?
[45:46.970 --> 45:48.030]  [SPEAKER_18]: Major short positions.
[45:48.130 --> 45:48.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: They made fortunes.
[45:49.450 --> 45:50.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: Stock went to peanuts.
[45:50.530 --> 45:52.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: And what, it just stopped?
[45:52.510 --> 45:53.310]  [SPEAKER_18]: They stopped investigating?
[45:53.950 --> 45:54.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know.
[45:54.630 --> 45:55.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: Maybe it's in those 28 pages.
[45:56.770 --> 45:57.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's probably Saudis.
[45:57.970 --> 45:58.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: The Bin Laden family.
[45:59.450 --> 46:00.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: Probably Carlis.
[46:00.150 --> 46:01.330]  [SPEAKER_18]: We've got to get those 28 pages.
[46:01.810 --> 46:04.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, beside that, I think people should comment on that.
[46:04.470 --> 46:07.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: No one, I've not heard anyone yet mention that.
[46:07.110 --> 46:08.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: It was of common knowledge.
[46:08.330 --> 46:09.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, it was in papers.
[46:09.450 --> 46:10.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: A lot of print is on it.
[46:10.910 --> 46:11.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Anyone can prove it.
[46:12.390 --> 46:12.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[46:12.710 --> 46:15.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, if you can point us to some articles, you'll find out.
[46:15.770 --> 46:16.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: People will remember.
[46:17.050 --> 46:18.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: He was in all the papers.
[46:18.310 --> 46:19.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: The Wall Street Journal had articles in it.
[46:19.790 --> 46:21.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: And, you know, it was in the news stories.
[46:21.750 --> 46:22.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm just surprised nobody remembers it.
[46:22.970 --> 46:24.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll do some web searching.
[46:24.610 --> 46:24.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[46:24.970 --> 46:25.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do some web searching.
[46:25.490 --> 46:26.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: Find us some specific articles.
[46:26.850 --> 46:32.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: Huge, huge short sales in airline stocks that were discovered right before it.
[46:32.210 --> 46:34.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I think that's what the genesis of this idea is.
[46:34.390 --> 46:35.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: Those people had knowledge.
[46:35.670 --> 46:36.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: He's noticed it in the markets.
[46:37.030 --> 46:37.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, bingo.
[46:38.030 --> 46:40.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: Two years later, somebody comes up with a brilliant idea at DARPA.
[46:40.730 --> 46:42.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hey, the markets know something.
[46:43.030 --> 46:44.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, the markets always know something.
[46:44.450 --> 46:45.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: The markets know earthquakes.
[46:45.430 --> 46:47.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: It was only United and American.
[46:48.030 --> 46:48.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're saying?
[46:48.190 --> 46:50.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do you realize people made money shorting the earthquake of 07?
[46:52.310 --> 46:55.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: Jesse Livermore shorted the earthquake of 07 and made a fortune.
[46:55.970 --> 46:56.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: He didn't know what was happening.
[46:56.790 --> 46:59.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: That would be the San Francisco earthquake of 1906?
[46:59.930 --> 47:01.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, yeah, it was 06.
[47:01.550 --> 47:01.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're right.
[47:02.390 --> 47:02.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[47:03.250 --> 47:03.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: He made a fortune.
[47:04.090 --> 47:04.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's in the book.
[47:05.110 --> 47:05.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right.
[47:05.450 --> 47:06.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, we'll do our best look into it.
[47:06.970 --> 47:11.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: Send information to OTH at 2600.com and we'll look this up.
[47:12.410 --> 47:12.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[47:13.950 --> 47:15.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's go over here.
[47:16.070 --> 47:16.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[47:17.430 --> 47:17.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[47:17.790 --> 47:17.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[47:17.950 --> 47:18.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the air.
[47:20.010 --> 47:20.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Speak up.
[47:21.690 --> 47:22.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're not on the air.
[47:22.990 --> 47:23.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: How is that one?
[47:24.350 --> 47:25.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's try this one.
[47:25.550 --> 47:26.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you on the air?
[47:26.570 --> 47:26.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes.
[47:26.850 --> 47:27.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'd like to recommend a book.
[47:28.030 --> 47:28.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go away.
[47:28.670 --> 47:29.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Enough, Rebel.
[47:29.050 --> 47:29.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go away and stay away.
[47:29.630 --> 47:31.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'd like to recommend a book, too, but I have nothing in mind.
[47:33.170 --> 47:34.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's try over here.
[47:34.170 --> 47:36.030]  [SPEAKER_18]: Across the ocean, that voice grates on my nerves.
[47:37.070 --> 47:41.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, I have my voice being transported to France now.
[47:41.370 --> 47:42.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: But not like this voice does.
[47:43.110 --> 47:44.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: This voice grates on my nerves a whole different way.
[47:45.010 --> 47:48.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: How is the state of freedom of speech in France?
[47:49.010 --> 47:50.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: The state of freedom of speech isn't bad.
[47:50.810 --> 47:51.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's pretty good.
[47:51.570 --> 47:57.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because, you know, Nina Simone lived there and we just had a nice memorial for her this past weekend.
[47:57.750 --> 47:58.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: We have some issues.
[47:58.730 --> 48:02.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: I do have issues with the French government on certain things, but I'll get into that on a future show.
[48:02.510 --> 48:03.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, well, good.
[48:03.270 --> 48:10.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: By the way, I would be nice if you wished Al Lewis the best because, you know, he underwent some surgery on his heart.
[48:11.470 --> 48:18.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, you know, much as I'm an adversary in a way of him, I also care about him.
[48:18.350 --> 48:20.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, I respect him as a human being.
[48:20.950 --> 48:21.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: You understand?
[48:21.630 --> 48:21.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hello?
[48:21.850 --> 48:22.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: As we all do.
[48:23.050 --> 48:25.530]  [SPEAKER_18]: He's one of the members of our WBAI family.
[48:25.870 --> 48:27.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, but I don't understand.
[48:27.230 --> 48:32.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: I had a report to the list and I thought, well, for sure, they'll start off saying he's okay, you know, and I don't know.
[48:33.070 --> 48:34.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, sometimes I wonder.
[48:34.770 --> 48:41.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Also, that wall and fraud, you know, program, people question why it wasn't...
[48:41.290 --> 48:41.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[48:41.610 --> 48:43.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do you have anything to say about our program?
[48:43.070 --> 48:51.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I generally enjoy your program except when you give me a hard time and I rebel for Well, we only give you a hard time when you talk about other programs instead of our program.
[48:52.090 --> 48:54.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I think freedom of speech is too important.
[48:55.030 --> 48:58.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going to have a big seminar about it one of these days soon.
[48:58.730 --> 48:59.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[48:59.390 --> 49:00.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: So you're invited.
[49:00.890 --> 49:01.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll have it out then.
[49:02.170 --> 49:02.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, good.
[49:03.130 --> 49:03.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you.
[49:03.670 --> 49:04.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: See you, Cole.
[49:04.910 --> 49:05.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[49:07.030 --> 49:07.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[49:07.970 --> 49:08.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[49:09.450 --> 49:09.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[49:09.950 --> 49:12.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: I just want to confirm, yes, I remember very well.
[49:12.910 --> 49:21.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: All the reports about people selling short, but I think most of those short positions were not fulfilled.
[49:21.770 --> 49:25.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: That is, they didn't actually sell them because I don't think they wanted their names known.
[49:25.330 --> 49:27.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: So that's what I remember in the news report.
[49:28.430 --> 49:28.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[49:29.230 --> 49:31.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's even more suspicious, an uncovered short position.
[49:32.090 --> 49:33.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: There were a lot of shorts.
[49:33.570 --> 49:42.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: There were a lot of shorts against the airline stocks before 9-11, but I don't think that it's the case that many of them were fulfilled.
[49:43.030 --> 49:47.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: And my question is, is it something that happens on a normal basis?
[49:47.550 --> 49:49.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: Like, would you have found the same thing a year earlier?
[49:50.050 --> 49:52.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, a year earlier, I believe so.
[49:52.970 --> 49:55.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was not a good couple of years for airlines.
[49:55.570 --> 49:57.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, it hasn't been a good 15 years for airlines.
[49:58.270 --> 50:02.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm going to have to look this up to really substantiate this.
[50:02.550 --> 50:02.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: Look it up.
[50:02.910 --> 50:05.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was in the papers after 9-11.
[50:05.410 --> 50:06.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we'll search.
[50:07.470 --> 50:15.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: If anybody has a specific website, don't forget to email it to OTH at 2600.com.
[50:16.050 --> 50:18.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll dig up what I can and report next week's show.
[50:19.850 --> 50:20.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[50:20.350 --> 50:20.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[50:20.990 --> 50:21.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[50:21.510 --> 50:21.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: Thanks, thanks.
[50:23.790 --> 50:25.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, hello, you're on the air.
[50:26.370 --> 50:32.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, I was ringing in about the short positions that were placed before 9-11.
[50:32.950 --> 50:37.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, no, statistically, it was unaccountable.
[50:37.930 --> 50:44.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, the positions were so large that the connection was undeniable.
[50:44.150 --> 50:51.950]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I believe that the positions were not covered when attention was focused on the fact that, you know, the positions had been taken.
[50:52.290 --> 51:01.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, it sort of even gives more credence to the fact that it was the positions were placed by people with inside knowledge.
[51:01.830 --> 51:05.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is probably where Poindexter, the genius, got the idea.
[51:06.050 --> 51:24.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: But, you know, as far as, you know, finding out what's happening by getting the average of what people think, I mean, if you got people to bet on, you know, the American public, to bet in March on whether Saddam Hussein was behind 9-1-1, I don't think you would have gotten a very good answer.
[51:24.990 --> 51:31.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, you never, they say you should never underestimate the stupidity of the American electorate.
[51:31.830 --> 51:33.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Or any uninformed populace, really.
[51:34.150 --> 51:34.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: Pardon me?
[51:34.990 --> 51:36.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: And any uninformed populace, really.
[51:36.730 --> 51:44.830]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, the fact is, a lot of information is simply being kept from the public, and then the public is expected to make a rational decision based on no evidence.
[51:45.010 --> 51:48.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: Or the public is being disinformed, as it largely is in this society.
[51:49.470 --> 51:51.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: Things like WBAI, of course, work against that.
[51:52.490 --> 51:53.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'd also like to...
[51:53.390 --> 51:53.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, we try.
[51:54.350 --> 51:54.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah.
[51:54.690 --> 51:55.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Say hello to Monroe.
[51:56.110 --> 51:56.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: How are you from?
[51:56.770 --> 51:57.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: If I see him, I will.
[51:57.930 --> 51:58.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[51:58.670 --> 51:59.330]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thanks for calling.
[51:59.490 --> 51:59.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: Bye-bye.
[52:01.130 --> 52:02.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: Shall we take a couple more?
[52:02.710 --> 52:02.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[52:03.090 --> 52:04.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've got a few minutes left.
[52:04.430 --> 52:04.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[52:04.870 --> 52:06.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you're the next caller.
[52:06.430 --> 52:07.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, dial tone.
[52:07.830 --> 52:08.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that's a comment in itself.
[52:09.090 --> 52:09.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[52:10.490 --> 52:11.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, hello.
[52:11.590 --> 52:12.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[52:12.710 --> 52:13.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello.
[52:13.570 --> 52:13.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi.
[52:14.210 --> 52:17.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I wanted to say, I'm a carpenter in New York City.
[52:18.110 --> 52:22.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: And just a few months before 9-11, I was looking around the city.
[52:22.690 --> 52:27.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, this relates to these reports about, uh, somebody knew this was going to happen.
[52:28.010 --> 52:29.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: I went from job to job.
[52:29.810 --> 52:31.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: It'd be a brand new building going up.
[52:31.710 --> 52:33.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: Two or three carpenters in there.
[52:33.670 --> 52:38.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: After I went to about ten buildings like this, I asked the foreman, what's going on?
[52:39.150 --> 52:42.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Why am I seeing all these buildings with just two or three carpenters?
[52:42.850 --> 52:43.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: It should be at least two dozen.
[52:44.410 --> 52:53.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: They said to me, without exception, the banks are holding back the money because they expect this president to start a war.
[52:55.250 --> 53:09.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, this is happening on a level where the foreman of a, of a, of a construction job knows and is, is, is waiting and watching and giving us information that the banks are waiting for this president to start a war.
[53:09.430 --> 53:17.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, it seemed that a number of people, including the governor of California, had information that something was going to happen.
[53:19.690 --> 53:20.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[53:20.990 --> 53:21.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[53:21.730 --> 53:23.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, how's the governor of California get into this?
[53:23.870 --> 53:25.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: He was coming to New York that day.
[53:25.470 --> 53:27.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: They told him it was a bad day to fly.
[53:28.170 --> 53:28.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: I heard that.
[53:28.990 --> 53:29.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: I heard that someplace.
[53:30.510 --> 53:30.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.
[53:31.090 --> 53:31.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[53:32.490 --> 53:38.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: So what I'm saying is we had a conspiracy going right under our nose and we're walking around like, and conspiracies can't happen.
[53:39.030 --> 53:40.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's like they're against the law.
[53:42.110 --> 53:42.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're asleep.
[53:43.430 --> 53:44.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're asleep.
[53:44.170 --> 53:46.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: And as American people, we need to get back on the case.
[53:46.990 --> 53:52.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's as if the sixties have revisited us and they're saying, look, y'all don't get it together.
[53:53.310 --> 53:55.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Then you're going to get, you're going to, it's going to be 1984.
[53:56.730 --> 53:58.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's going to be your reality.
[53:58.050 --> 54:11.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: And with the case with the FBI coming after a man for what he was reading, I mean, if that's not like 1984, if we're not, if we're not waking up into a Nazi Germany type like situation, then what is this?
[54:12.790 --> 54:14.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: What do you think, Emmanuel Goldstein?
[54:14.510 --> 54:19.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, we have to look out for things like that because they happen so much more often than, than people believe.
[54:19.650 --> 54:26.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: People are targeted because of the way they look, because of what they wear, because of where they, you know, where they happen to be at a particular moment in time.
[54:26.790 --> 54:29.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: And every time that happens, we need to document it.
[54:30.010 --> 54:31.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: We need to, to follow up on it.
[54:32.090 --> 54:35.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: We need to let people know just how many times these things are going on.
[54:35.350 --> 54:41.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think we also have to let our own police know that you are not the police against the people.
[54:41.790 --> 54:45.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: You are the police from the people, for the people.
[54:45.790 --> 54:46.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Exactly.
[54:46.050 --> 54:50.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I mean, I don't care if you're black or white, and we know that they really after black people.
[54:50.830 --> 54:51.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: We know this.
[54:51.650 --> 54:58.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: But we got to tell our police, because these police, they become, they are our brothers, our sisters, our dads, uncles.
[54:58.850 --> 55:04.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: We got to say, look, y'all can't be instruments for this regime, for wickedness.
[55:04.810 --> 55:10.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: What's the difference between, let's say, the NYPD, KKK, or the Gestapo of Germany?
[55:11.050 --> 55:12.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: As a black man, I don't see a difference.
[55:12.870 --> 55:14.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, it's interesting.
[55:14.570 --> 55:24.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: Traveling around in Europe, one thing I do notice, and I've noticed this in many countries, is that the police somehow do not, at least the local police, do not seem nearly as intimidating as they do in the United States.
[55:24.770 --> 55:27.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: They don't seem to be heavily armed, if armed at all.
[55:28.230 --> 55:32.030]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, basically, these are guys I could probably take in a fight if it came down to it.
[55:32.030 --> 55:35.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: In New York City, though, you're going up against soldiers, virtually.
[55:35.910 --> 55:41.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: They have their battalions and all kinds of things that would protect them.
[55:42.290 --> 55:44.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's like they're not people anymore.
[55:44.190 --> 55:46.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think that's very scary when it reaches that state.
[55:46.790 --> 55:47.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: They're stormtroopers.
[55:47.870 --> 55:48.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right.
[55:48.330 --> 55:48.730]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's right.
[55:50.510 --> 55:53.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Paramilitary units that occupy our communities.
[55:54.010 --> 55:54.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[55:55.350 --> 55:56.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's not needed.
[55:57.430 --> 55:59.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: I know we're running out of time, so let me just make this quick.
[56:00.930 --> 56:05.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: When you're wandering around this culture here, there are so many less barriers.
[56:06.170 --> 56:12.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: For instance, I was crossing a street that was literally 10 lanes wide in front of one of these major plazas.
[56:12.730 --> 56:13.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: There was no traffic light.
[56:14.630 --> 56:20.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: Cars just understood that they're supposed to slow down when pedestrians are crossing the street, and they do.
[56:21.010 --> 56:22.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's simple as that.
[56:22.130 --> 56:24.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: And everything kind of works out.
[56:24.370 --> 56:25.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: You don't have all these threats.
[56:25.630 --> 56:26.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: You don't have all these penalties.
[56:27.730 --> 56:30.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: And, you know, people tend to take care of each other.
[56:30.790 --> 56:33.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: We don't trust each other in the States, unfortunately.
[56:34.030 --> 56:34.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't.
[56:34.610 --> 56:37.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: And it makes us really think about, well, what is freedom?
[56:38.250 --> 56:40.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I think we're going to have to thank you for the call.
[56:40.810 --> 56:41.070]  Okay.
[56:42.090 --> 56:44.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we'll be back at the same time next week.
[56:44.670 --> 56:49.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you want to send us an email, the address is O-T-H at 2600 dot com.
[56:50.210 --> 56:51.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anything else, Emmanuel?
[56:52.030 --> 56:55.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: Just next week, a bunch of us are going to be over here.
[56:55.550 --> 56:56.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: It should be an interesting show.
[56:58.250 --> 57:00.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: We'll update people then as to what's going on.
[57:00.950 --> 57:05.330]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I'm here for the next five weeks after this in various parts of Eastern Europe.
[57:05.450 --> 57:06.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: So I'll be reporting.
[57:06.390 --> 57:07.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: We want to thank you.
[57:07.270 --> 57:08.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: We want to thank Max for engineering for us.
[57:09.010 --> 57:12.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: And don't forget, if you're not over in Europe, this Friday is the 2600 meeting.
[57:12.950 --> 57:13.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: Check your local listings.
[57:14.190 --> 57:15.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I'll be at the one in Paris.
[57:15.530 --> 57:17.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: So if anyone's in France, feel free to stop by.
[57:18.790 --> 57:19.150]  All right.
[57:50.650 --> 58:03.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Trying to keep up with the fast-paced developments on militarism and the movements for peace and justice, WBAI's website, www.wbai.org, can help you stay current.
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