Off The Hook - 2004-12-29

[00:00.000 --> 00:10.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: The Unique appealed for support of the United Nations, the Vatican, and countries like Venezuela, Spain, and France to assist in setting up a humanitarian prisoner exchange.
[00:10.820 --> 00:18.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, tomorrow marks Uribe's deadline for the FARC to hand over 63 hostages or face the U.S.
[00:18.660 --> 00:21.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: extradition of their commander, Ricardo Palmera.
[00:21.760 --> 00:25.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: From Kakata, I'm Nicole Carson for Free Speech Radio News.
[00:28.990 --> 00:39.570]  [SPEAKER_00]: Free Speech Radio News is produced at Pacifica stations WBAI in New York, KPFA in Berkeley, and KPFK in Los Angeles, and community radio station WMNF in Tampa, Florida.
[00:39.830 --> 00:48.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: For an archive of today's newscast or previous FSRN stories, go to www.fsrn.org.
[00:48.950 --> 00:50.910]  [SPEAKER_00]: In New York, I'm Deepa Fernandes.
[00:55.290 --> 00:57.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's 7.01 p.m.
[00:57.430 --> 00:59.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: here on radio station WBAI New York.
[01:00.250 --> 01:01.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Time now for Off the Hook.
[01:04.010 --> 01:04.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe.
[01:07.010 --> 01:12.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, our CD player is not really functioning, so we're going to swap them.
[01:12.210 --> 01:15.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's kind of exciting.
[01:17.790 --> 01:18.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's try it again.
[01:19.430 --> 01:20.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Time now for Off the Hook.
[02:22.080 --> 02:25.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: And do we have Emmanuel here with us?
[02:25.700 --> 02:26.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we do.
[02:27.420 --> 02:29.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm over here in Berlin.
[02:29.800 --> 02:37.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, any notion I might have had that the WBAI CD player is going to work properly, so of course it's vanished.
[02:37.380 --> 02:42.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: I actually miss that CD player, the one that's always malfunctioning and not playing things you wanted to play.
[02:42.780 --> 02:44.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, yes, I'm over here in Berlin.
[02:44.460 --> 02:50.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to be a very interesting show because I'm over here with a bunch of people from the Chaos Communication Congress, which has just ended.
[02:51.600 --> 02:55.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time, we have Bernie S., who's on a bus heading for Thailand.
[02:56.600 --> 03:00.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we certainly have a lot of things to talk about tonight.
[03:00.860 --> 03:01.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bernie, are you with us?
[03:02.300 --> 03:02.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[03:02.960 --> 03:09.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: As you mentioned, I'm on a busload of Chinese people on the way to JFK, and I'll be leaving in a few hours for Thailand.
[03:10.420 --> 03:15.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: The last show was obviously before this huge disaster.
[03:15.660 --> 03:21.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm heading there anyway with a huge bag of relief supplies to try to help out.
[03:21.420 --> 03:23.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we're going to talk about that in a little bit.
[03:23.040 --> 03:25.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're on a bus with Chinese people, as you said?
[03:25.520 --> 03:29.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there's a stopover in Taiwan, Taipei.
[03:29.900 --> 03:33.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: So everyone on this bus is going to Taipei.
[03:33.700 --> 03:38.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm getting off there and taking another hop to Bangkok.
[03:39.400 --> 03:39.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[03:40.060 --> 03:43.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know they put people on buses, according to their flights, so soon.
[03:44.400 --> 03:48.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's a special deal that China Airlines has.
[03:48.720 --> 03:51.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: They give you a free bus ride from Philadelphia to JFK.
[03:51.920 --> 03:52.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting.
[03:53.040 --> 03:53.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Taking advantage of that.
[03:54.640 --> 03:55.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's something.
[03:55.340 --> 03:59.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we definitely have a lot of interesting things to talk about as far as that particular situation goes.
[03:59.520 --> 04:02.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's deal first with what's happening over here in Europe.
[04:02.760 --> 04:15.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: And first, before we get into the CAAS Communication Congress that just ended, I'd like to introduce Raynaud, who is going to make a very important announcement about something that is upcoming.
[04:16.200 --> 04:17.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let me hand the phone over to him.
[04:19.240 --> 04:25.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Pak your agenda and write up, van 28 to 31 juli 2005, wil you op Wattehek zijn?
[04:25.800 --> 04:28.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Het vijfde internationale hackerscongress in Nederland.
[04:29.980 --> 04:31.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I wasn't...
[04:32.440 --> 04:33.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, did you get that okay?
[04:33.820 --> 04:34.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Just fine, yeah.
[04:35.040 --> 04:35.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[04:36.940 --> 04:39.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I think we might have a little miscommunication here.
[04:40.660 --> 04:42.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: We had an important announcement, and...
[04:42.660 --> 04:43.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, okay.
[04:44.880 --> 04:48.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to make that announcement again with a little modification later on in the program.
[04:48.600 --> 04:49.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it was a very important announcement.
[04:49.860 --> 04:50.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Trust me on this.
[04:51.680 --> 04:53.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: The CCC Congress has just ended.
[04:54.160 --> 05:01.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Note, the CCC Congress is a yearly hacker event that takes place here in Berlin.
[05:01.700 --> 05:06.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's taken place in a couple other cities in Germany over the last 21 years.
[05:06.140 --> 05:06.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[05:06.460 --> 05:12.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: This conference has been going on for 21 years, the longest hacker conference known to man.
[05:13.260 --> 05:22.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this year's was especially good because it had, and I'm not kidding here, it had over 200 different speakers.
[05:22.920 --> 05:28.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, it's a virtual explosion of panels and speakers.
[05:29.260 --> 05:36.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: They had about, I think, five tracks going at once, from small rooms to big rooms.
[05:36.460 --> 05:37.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: They had workshops going.
[05:38.000 --> 05:45.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: They had all kinds of demonstrations of hardware happening all throughout this building right here in the middle of Alexanderplatz.
[05:45.500 --> 05:47.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was just an incredible event.
[05:47.940 --> 05:50.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've been to, I think I've been to four of these things now.
[05:51.540 --> 05:58.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'd say by far this one was the best programming-wise, attendance-wise, too.
[05:58.220 --> 05:59.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: We had 3,500 people show up.
[06:00.000 --> 06:05.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of Americans, a good number of Americans showed up this time, and I think that's a trend that will continue.
[06:06.060 --> 06:09.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: I gave a talk earlier today, just about 12 hours ago, in fact.
[06:11.420 --> 06:27.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'd like to enter this a little bit more later, but one of the things I asked people when I was giving my talk was how many people do not want to come to the United States, specifically because the United States now requires you to give them your thumbprint when you enter the country.
[06:27.300 --> 06:31.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: More than half the people in the room, there's a pretty large room, raise their hands.
[06:31.540 --> 06:42.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's just a sad comment on where things stand today, that we live in a nation that feels it has to fingerprint people coming into its borders.
[06:43.040 --> 06:51.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people don't think that's the right thing to do, and they take a very dim view of having to be treated like a criminal.
[06:52.040 --> 06:59.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, you know, if this does not stop, a lot of people are not going to be visiting the United States.
[06:59.360 --> 07:03.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not just computer hackers for our conferences, but tourists of all sorts.
[07:03.480 --> 07:10.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you're going to see a real economic downturn, you're going to see a real brain drain, many bad things.
[07:13.030 --> 07:13.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sounds like it.
[07:15.090 --> 07:18.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is there anything that people can do if they want to not have this happen?
[07:19.650 --> 07:28.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I would imagine, first of all, letting people know in the States, because obviously we won't be subjected to this having lived in the States.
[07:28.350 --> 07:30.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you're a citizen, you won't be fingerprinted.
[07:30.110 --> 07:38.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: But anybody visiting the country, coming into the country by an airport, I don't believe this is happening at land borders in Canada and Mexico.
[07:39.150 --> 07:44.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Although I'm sure if you fly into Canada from Europe, you'll have to be fingerprinted at some point if you cross the border.
[07:45.750 --> 07:47.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: People need to be educated about this.
[07:47.350 --> 07:48.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: People need to know that this is something the U.S.
[07:49.030 --> 07:52.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: government is doing, supposedly in the interest of homeland security.
[07:53.070 --> 07:55.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's no indication such records would ever be destroyed.
[07:56.230 --> 08:00.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a very bad way to address it.
[08:00.350 --> 08:01.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine if you were going someplace.
[08:02.930 --> 08:04.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is the way to present it to people.
[08:04.750 --> 08:09.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine you're going on vacation and you have to be fingerprinted before you enter the country.
[08:09.430 --> 08:14.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think most people would find that to be a very offensive way of treating a visitor.
[08:14.730 --> 08:22.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the biggest round of applause came when I suggested that perhaps that's what the EU will do to Americans.
[08:23.210 --> 08:29.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: And absolutely, absolutely, that's something that people think should be done here if it's being done to them.
[08:29.950 --> 08:32.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, you know, I don't think two wrongs make a right.
[08:32.450 --> 08:37.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think you can fight somebody who's making a mistake by making the same mistake yourself.
[08:37.430 --> 08:40.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was going to say, this is exactly, I think, what the U.S.
[08:40.150 --> 08:43.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: government wants is for the Europeans to start fingerprinting everyone.
[08:44.970 --> 08:47.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't think it would solve the problem at all.
[08:47.810 --> 08:48.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: No.
[08:48.450 --> 09:02.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: And hopefully, the people here will see that and will prevent their governments from instituting such policies, because they certainly have had a history of governments doing horrible things with personal records.
[09:02.590 --> 09:05.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we're entering into a period of that history ourselves.
[09:05.870 --> 09:20.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, not to leave us on such a somber note, I'd rather pass the phone around to people who have attended the Congress that has just ended here in Berlin, so that they can give a few summations of their own.
[09:20.330 --> 09:25.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll be back in a few minutes, and we can talk about all kinds of other things that have been going on this past week.
[09:25.910 --> 09:33.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: First, I'd like to give you over to Hanukkah, who is also from Amsterdam, and she has attended many conferences here in Berlin.
[09:34.270 --> 09:35.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Hanukkah, here's the phone.
[09:36.630 --> 09:36.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello.
[09:37.470 --> 09:37.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, guys.
[09:37.990 --> 09:38.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: How are you?
[09:38.690 --> 09:39.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: How are you?
[09:39.290 --> 09:39.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi.
[09:39.910 --> 09:40.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm fine.
[09:41.950 --> 09:46.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've been counting, and this is the 11th CCC Congress I've attended.
[09:46.610 --> 09:49.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: And as Emmanuel said, it's absolutely the best one.
[09:49.730 --> 09:53.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: They had so many talks and so many people from so many different countries.
[09:53.430 --> 10:00.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: There were speakers even from China and Japan, and of course, a lot of Americans, and there were more Dutch people than ever.
[10:00.890 --> 10:03.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think the first conference I went to from T.C.
[10:03.550 --> 10:08.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: was in 1991, and there were about 450 to 500 people.
[10:08.910 --> 10:11.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: So now it was seven times as big.
[10:12.030 --> 10:18.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: And people have been queuing for hours and hours outside a building on the first day, and it was raining, it was cold.
[10:19.030 --> 10:21.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they have been waiting patiently to get in.
[10:21.530 --> 10:23.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think they got rewarded, because it was great.
[10:24.570 --> 10:25.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wow.
[10:25.870 --> 10:26.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[10:26.470 --> 10:29.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Any specific experiences or...
[10:30.490 --> 10:31.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sorry?
[10:31.230 --> 10:36.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Any specific experiences you want to share with our listeners, or just the splendor of the whole thing?
[10:36.810 --> 10:39.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: There were a number of interesting talks.
[10:39.630 --> 10:43.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: I personally like more the social talks and the political ones than the technical ones.
[10:43.990 --> 10:57.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: There was somebody giving a talk about Internet censorship in China, because he has a friend who recently moved to China, and he was very annoyed that his friend couldn't read his weblog anymore.
[10:58.110 --> 11:00.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: So they started to do some research.
[11:00.470 --> 11:12.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: And in the end, they could paint a whole nice picture of how the Chinese government is censoring the Internet, and which websites get censored, and how they do it, and stuff.
[11:12.230 --> 11:14.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: So that was very interesting, based on their own experiences.
[11:17.070 --> 11:18.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sounds like it.
[11:19.050 --> 11:19.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mm-hmm.
[11:19.690 --> 11:20.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, definitely.
[11:21.350 --> 11:21.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[11:22.010 --> 11:23.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you have anything else?
[11:24.570 --> 11:26.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, I think that's it for now.
[11:26.170 --> 11:29.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think I'm going to pass on the phone to...
[11:30.850 --> 11:31.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is Redbird.
[11:31.990 --> 11:32.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: How's it going?
[11:32.570 --> 11:33.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hey, how are you?
[11:33.810 --> 11:34.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[11:34.830 --> 11:36.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, this is actually my first trip to Europe.
[11:37.290 --> 11:39.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's been a great experience with the CCC.
[11:41.610 --> 11:44.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Previously, the only hacker conferences I've attended were Hope.
[11:45.030 --> 11:47.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was actually very similar.
[11:47.530 --> 11:52.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, you hear from a lot more... You hear from a lot more people here.
[11:52.930 --> 11:57.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: It seems to have a much more diverse audience, anyway.
[11:57.590 --> 11:57.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Certainly.
[11:59.390 --> 12:02.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Any subway hacking stories of Europe?
[12:03.450 --> 12:04.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Not really.
[12:04.410 --> 12:06.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's a very different system here.
[12:07.350 --> 12:10.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't really ridden the subway much.
[12:10.650 --> 12:15.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the U-Bahn here is very different than the MTA system.
[12:15.950 --> 12:22.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: They don't use magnetic stripe or proximity car technology at all.
[12:22.290 --> 12:25.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I should mention, this is Bernie S.
[12:25.210 --> 12:27.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: in Philadelphia, actually closer to New York now.
[12:27.490 --> 12:32.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bangkok has just completed their first subway system.
[12:33.190 --> 12:33.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's brand new.
[12:34.090 --> 12:35.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was just open this summer.
[12:35.590 --> 12:38.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: A special ceremony presided by the king.
[12:39.390 --> 12:41.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it looks very modern.
[12:41.510 --> 12:43.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is the most modern subway system on the planet.
[12:43.930 --> 12:51.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I plan to document how it works and bring back some of the RFID fare instruments.
[12:52.190 --> 12:53.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're used on it.
[12:53.350 --> 12:54.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it looks like quite a system.
[12:56.430 --> 12:56.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, good.
[12:57.010 --> 12:57.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: We look forward to that.
[12:59.630 --> 13:00.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anything else, Redbird?
[13:01.790 --> 13:02.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, not too much.
[13:03.050 --> 13:04.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: I guess I can pass it back to Emmanuel now.
[13:05.290 --> 13:05.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[13:07.950 --> 13:11.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, actually, I'd like to hand the phone back over to Raynaud.
[13:11.810 --> 13:13.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: There was slight miscommunication before.
[13:13.610 --> 13:18.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he now has a different version of the announcement that he earlier gave.
[13:18.850 --> 13:21.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: I hope it's in Esperanto this time.
[13:22.830 --> 13:23.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[13:23.610 --> 13:24.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi there.
[13:24.750 --> 13:24.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi.
[13:25.130 --> 13:27.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's, gather your agenda and write it down.
[13:27.690 --> 13:34.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: July 28th till the 31st, you want to be at Waterhack, the 5th International Hacker Congress in the Netherlands.
[13:34.150 --> 13:35.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, wow.
[13:36.410 --> 13:37.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: What are the dates again?
[13:39.170 --> 13:44.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: July 28th till the 31st.
[13:45.110 --> 13:47.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: That is of 2005, yeah?
[13:47.430 --> 13:47.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[13:48.050 --> 13:49.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: So that's four days in July.
[13:50.110 --> 13:50.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wow.
[13:50.930 --> 13:54.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anything else you can tell us about it, or just that it's happening?
[13:55.890 --> 14:02.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it's now the... We started doing this in 1998, the Galactic Hacker Party.
[14:02.490 --> 14:10.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we did Hacking at the End of the Universe in 1993, Hacking in Progress in 97, and Hacking at Large in 2001.
[14:10.730 --> 14:14.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: So it's now the fifth one we're doing, and it's becoming bigger and bigger.
[14:15.150 --> 14:20.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we're following our traditions, like doing it out on the field in tents.
[14:20.890 --> 14:25.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this time, we're going to try to broaden our horizons a little bit.
[14:25.970 --> 14:31.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: And of course, we're going to do all the hacker stuff and the open-source projects.
[14:31.610 --> 14:41.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: But this time, we want to try to include people from the media or journalists in the fields that they have to do their daily work.
[14:41.710 --> 14:45.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: They have to hack things themselves to keep it working, to get energy, things like that.
[14:46.010 --> 14:53.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: We want to get people from the environmentalists in that think about what's happening to our planet and what we can do.
[14:54.190 --> 14:57.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, well, they do things like us, but with the media.
[14:57.550 --> 15:00.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, well, what are the differences and what are the things we do the same?
[15:00.850 --> 15:02.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what can we learn from each other?
[15:02.290 --> 15:08.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because I think there's a large group of people that think about the same lines as the hacker community does.
[15:08.830 --> 15:11.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we can learn from each other and help each other in these ways.
[15:13.910 --> 15:15.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sounds like a lot of fun.
[15:15.930 --> 15:16.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, yes.
[15:16.610 --> 15:18.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's generally a lot of fun as well.
[15:18.110 --> 15:21.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, it's still some months to plan it.
[15:22.170 --> 15:22.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[15:22.930 --> 15:24.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, we're now getting up to steam.
[15:24.850 --> 15:30.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: And a lot of people who did it the last time are already eagerly waiting when they get started.
[15:31.050 --> 15:32.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there's lots of things to do.
[15:33.150 --> 15:36.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: All kinds of crazy ideas and people show things.
[15:36.350 --> 15:46.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: But also, well, laying out the fields and pulling all the network cables and getting current and connectivity and, well, basic things like toilets.
[15:46.210 --> 15:53.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there's all kinds of things that have to be done when you want to get as much people there for a week as we do.
[15:54.130 --> 15:57.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is there a way that people can become involved?
[15:58.690 --> 15:59.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[15:59.270 --> 16:04.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, we have not really much on the website now except for an image of the flyer we handed out here.
[16:04.810 --> 16:08.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: But it will get a lot more content in the coming weeks.
[16:08.030 --> 16:10.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, well, if people can come and...
[16:10.910 --> 16:13.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: What we always say, it's a do-it-yourself event.
[16:13.190 --> 16:23.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you have a great idea and you can show it to them and we can help you with the logistics or provide you with a tent or something, we can work together and make it a big event.
[16:23.730 --> 16:28.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not that we think up everything and we just serve it to you.
[16:28.630 --> 16:31.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Everybody's free to come and organize things themselves.
[16:31.850 --> 16:33.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what is the website?
[16:34.790 --> 16:37.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: HTTP whatstheheck.org Okay.
[16:38.470 --> 16:40.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: And hack with an A, of course.
[16:40.990 --> 16:41.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Of course.
[16:42.110 --> 16:42.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[16:42.430 --> 16:44.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: I assume with an E, someone else already has it.
[16:46.610 --> 16:50.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: And why don't you tell us the dates one more time and the location?
[16:50.890 --> 16:51.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[16:51.910 --> 16:56.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: The date is July 28th till the 31st.
[16:56.190 --> 16:58.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: So this is the last four days of July.
[16:58.710 --> 17:00.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's in the south of the Netherlands.
[17:01.010 --> 17:01.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[17:02.950 --> 17:04.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Unless you have anything else?
[17:05.830 --> 17:07.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, not really now.
[17:07.750 --> 17:08.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I'll give you back Emmanuel.
[17:09.090 --> 17:09.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[17:09.590 --> 17:10.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, thanks a lot.
[17:10.690 --> 17:11.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm looking forward to it.
[17:12.050 --> 17:12.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[17:12.330 --> 17:12.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[17:12.770 --> 17:13.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hope to see you.
[17:13.490 --> 17:13.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[17:15.990 --> 17:19.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: And actually, I'd like to talk about the New Dutch Conference a little more.
[17:19.950 --> 17:26.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: But first, I just wanted to ask Renaud one question because he didn't give his impressions of the CCC conference just ended.
[17:26.090 --> 17:29.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to know what your idea of some of the highlights of it were.
[17:32.310 --> 17:32.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[17:32.810 --> 17:35.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, of course, there were a lot of great talks.
[17:36.090 --> 17:39.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, well, you always have to choose which one you have to...
[17:39.890 --> 17:41.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: You want to see which one you're going to miss.
[17:41.530 --> 17:44.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the overall atmosphere was really great, too.
[17:44.930 --> 17:47.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's really what they call the Art and Beauty Center.
[17:47.570 --> 17:53.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there were almost round-the-clock VJs showing their things, which was really cool.
[17:53.770 --> 18:02.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there were the people from the Blinkenlight project that, a few years ago, they hacked an entire building here in the center of Berlin.
[18:02.690 --> 18:13.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: And with really, yeah, with just lighting the lights behind the windows, they really made a very nice performance.
[18:13.670 --> 18:17.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: And after that, they did it a little bit better in Paris.
[18:17.250 --> 18:19.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: And they showed their work and how they did it.
[18:19.930 --> 18:32.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there were the people there that implemented the old, well, 70s or 80s pong game in hardware, which is really cool if you look at it, just moving parts.
[18:33.170 --> 18:34.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, well, you play it with the game pedals.
[18:35.230 --> 18:46.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: And everywhere, people walking around, talking to each other, and typing on their laptops, maybe hacking things, maybe implementing open-source projects.
[18:46.770 --> 18:50.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: And they're lying under their table sleeping or on their table sleeping.
[18:51.230 --> 18:53.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, well, there's lots of things going on anywhere.
[18:53.650 --> 18:58.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: And just being there and meeting the people is really great for four days.
[19:01.190 --> 19:02.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that pretty much sums it up.
[19:03.030 --> 19:06.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what the whole situation was like for the past several days.
[19:07.330 --> 19:17.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: 24 hours around the clock, just people hanging out, doing their own thing, sharing information, playing with technology, going to talks.
[19:17.570 --> 19:21.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the atmosphere here in Germany, of course, is so much more laid back than it is in the States.
[19:21.730 --> 19:24.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just very hard to describe.
[19:24.310 --> 19:25.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to experience it for yourself.
[19:26.130 --> 19:27.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: And hopefully next year, many people will.
[19:28.350 --> 19:30.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's very exciting news, though, about the Dutch Conference.
[19:30.890 --> 19:33.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: We knew something was going to be happening next summer.
[19:33.170 --> 19:34.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now we know for sure what it is.
[19:35.070 --> 19:36.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's called What the Hack?
[19:37.070 --> 19:38.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a great name, I think.
[19:39.170 --> 19:40.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to read you a little bit from this flyer.
[19:41.710 --> 19:42.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Times have changed.
[19:43.050 --> 19:45.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Terrorism, metal detectors, special new laws.
[19:45.670 --> 19:49.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: And our leaders getting ever closer to their dream of knowing it all.
[19:49.630 --> 19:56.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's been a crazy almost four years since the last time all the tribes of the hacker universe camped out in the Netherlands at HAL 2001.
[19:57.330 --> 20:02.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: High time to get together, meet, reflect, show our projects, and discuss our ideas.
[20:02.310 --> 20:10.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: No matter whether you're into figuring out what they're up to, doing something about it, or having a good time with some of the smartest and funniest people we know of, come to What the Hack?
[20:10.750 --> 20:19.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's taking place from July 28th through July 31st near Denbosch, that's D-E-N-B-O-S-C-H, in the Netherlands.
[20:20.010 --> 20:23.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: And again, more information, go to whatthehack.org.
[20:24.150 --> 20:25.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's going to be a lot of fun.
[20:27.410 --> 20:29.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: As I said before, it certainly sounds like it.
[20:30.430 --> 20:44.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have to interject here that my experiences at the last two outdoor hacking events, most recently at the CCC camp, summer before last, and at HAL, were two of the most amazing experiences of my life.
[20:44.710 --> 20:45.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was just...
[20:45.510 --> 20:47.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's something that really should not be missed.
[20:47.850 --> 20:54.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyone listening to this program owes it to themselves to attend this event this summer, because it will be...
[20:54.390 --> 20:56.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: You'll remember it the rest of your life, I promise you.
[20:57.410 --> 20:57.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[20:57.930 --> 21:10.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, speaking of things that you're going to remember for the rest of your life, Bernie, now, we were talking about this for the last few weeks, that you were planning this trip to Thailand, specifically to the resort of...
[21:10.170 --> 21:11.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: How are you supposed to pronounce it again?
[21:12.850 --> 21:13.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Phoket.
[21:13.470 --> 21:14.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's spelled Phoket.
[21:14.250 --> 21:15.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we'll just do that.
[21:16.230 --> 21:16.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Phoket.
[21:16.870 --> 21:32.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the first thing I heard last week, which I thought was kind of odd, was the rebels who are currently fighting in Thailand, and specifically mentioned that particular area as something they were a target because of all the tourists that go there.
[21:33.370 --> 21:42.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then I heard the news of the earthquake, and, you know, it didn't seem so big at the time, when they first made the announcement about it.
[21:42.110 --> 21:45.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: But then, of course, the tsunami hit, and it's just been getting worse and worse.
[21:46.730 --> 21:54.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Here in Germany, over 1,000 tourists are missing in Thailand, and the flags here are all at half-staff, in fact.
[21:55.350 --> 21:58.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Sweden, a similar number, are missing.
[21:59.310 --> 22:01.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, of course, when I heard this...
[22:01.610 --> 22:02.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry, Gary?
[22:02.890 --> 22:05.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: ...an even greater number of Scandinavians.
[22:05.850 --> 22:14.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently there are approximately 2,000 Scandinavian tourists who are missing now and assume dead, but they haven't declared them dead yet.
[22:14.790 --> 22:21.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they say for every one Thai person who has been killed, I think around three or four tourists have been.
[22:22.650 --> 22:23.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's really...
[22:24.290 --> 22:27.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's horrible, of course, all the people in all the countries that were affected.
[22:28.110 --> 22:32.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: We were just watching BBC before the show, and the death toll is now up to 80,000.
[22:32.570 --> 22:34.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: They think it's going to go over 100,000 pretty easily.
[22:35.550 --> 22:43.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, of course, the big danger right now is disease that's going to be overtaking a lot of the people there.
[22:44.650 --> 22:48.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: A tsunami is a very scary concept, something we don't know a whole lot about.
[22:48.850 --> 22:58.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: And just looking at the videos of how these amazingly huge waves moved in, it's quite obvious that there was little or no preparation for something of that magnitude.
[22:59.510 --> 23:21.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, now, when I was reading all these newspaper accounts about what was going on, hearing this on various media outlets, of course, my thoughts turn to you, and many of our listeners, in fact, have been writing in, and asking if you're okay, you fortunately did not go to this place a week earlier for the Christmas holidays.
[23:21.270 --> 23:23.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: You opted instead to go for New Year's.
[23:23.650 --> 23:29.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm certain that, well, you know, it's hard to say what would have happened, but it's certainly...
[23:29.330 --> 23:32.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: your life would have been in great danger had you gone a week earlier.
[23:32.710 --> 23:36.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: As a matter of fact, Emmanuel, my original plans were to have gone one week earlier.
[23:36.810 --> 23:41.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: And a work commitment obligation kept me here a week longer.
[23:42.230 --> 23:48.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm extremely fortunate, because my original plans were to be there right when this happened.
[23:48.350 --> 23:50.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's really amazing.
[23:50.450 --> 23:57.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: You don't realize how a simple change in your schedule could really affect your life, and I feel quite lucky.
[23:57.750 --> 23:58.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of finger-pointing...
[23:58.910 --> 24:07.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of finger-pointing I wanted to point out that has to do with technology, Emmanuel, as to why people were not advised that this was on its way.
[24:08.890 --> 24:22.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: The American National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration was aware of the earthquake and had every reason to believe there would be strong waves.
[24:22.970 --> 24:28.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: And apparently didn't make much effort to communicate this to other countries.
[24:29.550 --> 24:31.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure there's no deliberate...
[24:32.970 --> 24:35.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: deliberate attempt to withhold this information.
[24:35.470 --> 24:38.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the fact is, someone had pointed out that...
[24:38.310 --> 24:43.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they could have just called CNN and announced it, and everybody watching CNN would have known about it.
[24:43.450 --> 24:43.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: But they were...
[24:43.970 --> 24:51.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: The American government was saying, well, there's no infrastructure in place for us to notify the proper authorities in these other countries.
[24:51.890 --> 24:56.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're not as well-equipped as we are to get information out to people.
[24:56.350 --> 24:57.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, what about this?
[24:57.990 --> 25:04.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Why didn't they just make an announcement through CNN or something which people follow around the world and word could have...
[25:04.710 --> 25:08.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: They knew hours in advance that this was on its way, at least a couple of hours.
[25:08.670 --> 25:10.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's an excellent point.
[25:10.250 --> 25:13.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, when tsunami's hit in the Pacific, there's a good...
[25:13.770 --> 25:19.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: almost a dozen hours sometimes before they strike, and there's plenty of time to evacuate.
[25:19.470 --> 25:22.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: And plus, they're prepared to do this kind of a thing.
[25:22.950 --> 25:26.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Indian Ocean, however, it's not as common and there's less time.
[25:28.110 --> 25:34.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, yeah, it would have made a lot more sense to use whatever means were at their disposal to get the word out.
[25:34.770 --> 25:39.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a horrible tragedy that it was not done in that particular way.
[25:39.910 --> 25:45.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, Bernie, what I wanted to ask you, though, I would say nine people out of...
[25:45.350 --> 25:54.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I would say 999 people out of 1,000, and something like this happening to a place that they planned on going to would have canceled their trip.
[25:54.970 --> 25:56.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you have not done that.
[25:56.610 --> 25:58.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're on your way to Thailand right now.
[25:58.970 --> 26:00.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I'll be on my way.
[26:00.830 --> 26:03.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll be landing in Bangkok on the 29th...
[26:03.370 --> 26:04.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, no, it's 20th or 29th.
[26:04.990 --> 26:13.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll be landing on the 31st, New Year's Eve, spending three days in Bangkok and going to Koh Chang, an island off the coast of Cambodia for three days.
[26:13.330 --> 26:17.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: After that, I was going to go into Phuket, where the disaster is.
[26:17.810 --> 26:26.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: And after this happened, I thought I would still go there just to see and do what I could to help out, even though I was only going to be there about a day.
[26:27.150 --> 26:32.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I found out yesterday that it's very difficult to get out of Phuket.
[26:32.810 --> 26:39.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can get into there now, but it's almost like the town you can't leave because everyone else is trying to get out.
[26:40.190 --> 26:48.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I would be stuck there for a week or more in situations where there may not be enough water for everybody, food enough for everybody.
[26:49.270 --> 26:54.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: So what I did is I packed a large bag to check at the airplane.
[26:54.710 --> 26:57.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're allowed to bring two 70-pound bags on China Airlines.
[26:58.090 --> 27:09.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I brought one big extra bag full of all kinds of surgical gloves and respirators and sterile bandages and that sort of thing.
[27:09.930 --> 27:15.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm going to find some relief workers at the Bangkok airport and give them to them to take to Phuket.
[27:16.470 --> 27:23.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's probably not a good idea for someone who's not really trained in disaster relief like myself to just be there.
[27:23.250 --> 27:26.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'd probably be more on the way, but at least I can bring a surprise to help them.
[27:26.470 --> 27:31.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: And also, Bernie, the situation of disease, that's something to really be concerned about.
[27:31.210 --> 27:34.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're saying that it's possible as many people will die from disease as died from the tsunami.
[27:35.390 --> 27:36.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's the thing.
[27:36.290 --> 27:44.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: The potential of life loss that could be coming soon would be greater than whenever people were killed at the moment the tsunami hit.
[27:45.230 --> 27:52.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's where a lot of other governments could really help out with helping to provide clean water and food and medical supplies.
[27:52.590 --> 28:12.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, people probably heard on the news today how a UN high-ranking UN official British-NAS and other large countries is being stingy for not providing enough foreign aid for this what's truly the biggest natural disaster in several generations.
[28:13.150 --> 28:14.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think the U.S.
[28:14.030 --> 28:15.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: has committed like $45 million.
[28:16.070 --> 28:24.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I ran some quick figures with a calculator and came to the conclusion that's about what the United States government spent in about two hours in Iraq.
[28:25.130 --> 28:28.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we've been doing that for, you know, what, a year and a half now.
[28:29.290 --> 28:33.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, just to put things in perspective, this is how much the U.S.
[28:33.330 --> 28:39.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: government has committed is $45 million, which is what we spend in maybe 100 minutes in Iraq.
[28:39.330 --> 28:42.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it seems like such a lopsided effort.
[28:43.570 --> 28:47.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the United States really wants to help the world.
[28:47.590 --> 28:51.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think this would be a better goal, frankly.
[28:52.810 --> 28:57.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think the world would be in a lot better shape without the tsunami as opposed to without Saddam Hussein.
[28:57.510 --> 28:59.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: But never mind that particular analogy.
[28:59.350 --> 29:05.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: I do want to point out, though, that you mentioned that this is the worst natural disaster to hit.
[29:06.050 --> 29:11.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, there was an earthquake in China, I believe, in the late 70s, where I think a quarter of a million people died.
[29:11.450 --> 29:17.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that a lot of people don't know about that because there wasn't very much in the way of news reporting from there.
[29:17.130 --> 29:22.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: But that's something that I find to be utterly phenomenal, how many people can lose their lives in something like this.
[29:23.610 --> 29:30.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: not to be a doomsayer, but the final count on this could exceed that number, which would be really unfortunate.
[29:31.170 --> 29:42.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: But if the aid doesn't get there quickly, the loss of life just from starvation or disease could approach or exceed that number.
[29:42.890 --> 29:43.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that would be...
[29:44.950 --> 29:49.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: I get the sense that people in the studio want to ask you questions about this.
[29:49.150 --> 29:52.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just wanted to interject that for our listeners who are interested in helping.
[29:53.450 --> 30:12.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Most international aid organizations are suggesting that cash would be the most practical thing to send at this moment because what they need is bulky water and easily obtainable just outside the disaster areas within a few hundred miles.
[30:12.570 --> 30:15.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: So what they could best use is cash.
[30:15.270 --> 30:19.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Clothing can be obtained in India for much cheaper than sending it would be.
[30:19.290 --> 30:26.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I would suggest dialing the Red Cross 1-800-HELP-NOW and asking them what can be sent.
[30:26.430 --> 30:36.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there are many other good relief organizations, UNICEF and others, that would love to hear from your call and can easily be found by dialing the 800 operator.
[30:36.730 --> 30:37.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: If they need to...
[30:37.330 --> 30:43.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: CARE, one other organization I'd like to mention that's very much involved with this relief effort is CARE.
[30:43.050 --> 30:46.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you can go to CARE.org and find out what you can do.
[30:46.830 --> 30:49.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: But again, what Jim said is correct.
[30:49.810 --> 30:58.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: For anyone outside of Thailand, really the best, or any of the countries that are affected by this, a financial contribution is really the most effective way to get aid there quickly.
[30:58.990 --> 31:00.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm just in a unique situation.
[31:00.450 --> 31:01.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going there anywhere, anyway.
[31:02.430 --> 31:07.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll only be a few hundred miles away and we'll actually be bumping into people who are headed right to the disaster site.
[31:07.790 --> 31:09.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm bringing supplies.
[31:09.770 --> 31:16.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Frankly, there's probably a run on the types of things I'm bringing.
[31:16.530 --> 31:19.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: There may be a shortage of them right in Thailand.
[31:19.670 --> 31:21.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that's why I'm bringing them from the United States.
[31:21.830 --> 31:23.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: So you didn't know in advance what to bring?
[31:24.550 --> 31:38.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I just thought that they could use a few hundred pairs of surgical gloves and some work gloves for people that are trying to bring apart so they don't get cut and get infected without the right antibiotics.
[31:38.010 --> 31:50.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are a lot of surgical bandages and the kind of things they're using on ambulance that you put on a wound and the gelatin goes into the wound and sort of seals it and keeps it from being infected.
[31:50.290 --> 31:52.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Just a huge bag of that kind of stuff.
[31:52.850 --> 31:59.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, Bernie, you're going to be speaking to us from Thailand next week on Off the Hook.
[31:59.670 --> 32:01.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was actually going to be this coming Wednesday.
[32:01.770 --> 32:06.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was going to be on the island of Phuket but I will be in what's his station.
[32:07.590 --> 32:18.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll be in another town that's about 120 miles northeast of Phuket called Suratami and there's a train station there.
[32:19.210 --> 32:29.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'll be staying there a day in Phuket and then taking a Thai railroad from Suratami back to Bangkok.
[32:29.570 --> 32:34.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Have you checked to make sure that these things still exist such as trains?
[32:34.810 --> 32:34.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[32:35.350 --> 32:38.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: I heard there's been so much damage to infrastructure over there.
[32:39.510 --> 32:51.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: There was a railroad line apparently near Phuket that was off the north of Phuket on the west coast of Thailand that was washed away.
[32:51.550 --> 32:54.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it's not that railroad I'll be on unfortunately.
[32:54.950 --> 32:55.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[32:55.690 --> 32:57.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: And how long are you going to be over there for?
[32:58.290 --> 32:59.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: About nine days altogether.
[33:00.690 --> 33:00.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[33:01.130 --> 33:04.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And do you know anybody over there or are you traveling with people?
[33:04.750 --> 33:17.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm traveling with a very close friend and we hope to find as much information as we can about the situation and other things in Thailand that aren't related to this.
[33:17.630 --> 33:23.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: Like I mentioned earlier in the show that Bangkok just finished building a opening a brand new subway system.
[33:23.670 --> 33:25.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: They've never had a subway in Bangkok before.
[33:25.630 --> 33:28.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is the most modern high-tech subway system on the planet.
[33:29.130 --> 33:34.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was just completed this July and uses RFID fair instruments.
[33:35.450 --> 33:41.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: And from the pictures I've seen it's really extremely modern looking and that should be worth checking out as well as some other infrastructure.
[33:42.150 --> 33:48.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I'll be taking a lot of pictures and taking a lot of notes and reporting anything that our listeners might be interested in.
[33:48.970 --> 33:53.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: I understand also that you have been trying to reach somebody via ham radio.
[33:53.370 --> 33:54.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: how's that going?
[33:55.530 --> 33:56.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not well.
[33:56.770 --> 34:07.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have a friend in Sri Lanka who I meet up with every year or most years who comes to Pennsylvania for a shortwave radio conference.
[34:09.150 --> 34:11.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I've not been able to reach him.
[34:12.530 --> 34:20.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: And Sri Lanka is a country that has really hit even worse than Thailand in this tragedy.
[34:20.270 --> 34:24.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: they're looking at over a million people who are homeless.
[34:24.950 --> 34:30.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: RTC Clark also, many of our listeners are familiar with, wrote childhood and some other fine science fiction.
[34:30.810 --> 34:35.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: He lives in Sri Lanka and there's been no word from him.
[34:35.170 --> 34:36.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: People have been trying to reach him as well.
[34:36.790 --> 34:44.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: So just they're looking at tens of thousands of people in Sri Lanka who were killed and over a million homeless.
[34:47.150 --> 34:59.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't want to make any conclusions yet, but I have not been able to reach my friend Victor and of course we care about RTC Clark and hundreds of thousands and millions of other people in Sri Lanka who were affected by this.
[34:59.630 --> 35:03.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is just nearly a global event.
[35:03.270 --> 35:06.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is beyond our imagination as far as how huge this is.
[35:06.990 --> 35:16.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bernie, I hate to interrupt you, but Ken Gale, who is engineering for us today, would like me to remind you that this is WBAI New York that you're listening to.
[35:16.510 --> 35:18.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Off the hook, 99.5 FM.
[35:21.590 --> 35:28.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, actually, Bernie, on the subject of Sri Lanka, I imagine that reaching anybody there right now might be very difficult.
[35:28.850 --> 35:39.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure if there's been any success in getting through the telephone system there, so it's possible that that might be the reason why we haven't heard from any of these people.
[35:40.010 --> 35:46.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, surprisingly, the telephone infrastructure in just outside of these areas is still in place.
[35:47.090 --> 36:03.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: And my friend Victor is very well equipped for radio communications and through various gateways, packet gateways, he can normally be reached without telephone lines through ham radio.
[36:04.230 --> 36:15.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, some of the first communications out out of Thailand were via ham radio operators because the phone lines were just destroyed and the cellular network was down.
[36:16.390 --> 36:24.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think I passed on, I don't have the URL in front of me, but there's what's called an echo link node in Thailand.
[36:24.030 --> 36:33.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can actually log in and listen to the two-way amateur radio communications, ham radio communications of volunteers trying to help
[36:36.850 --> 36:39.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: send it to the list we all are on.
[36:39.630 --> 36:41.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: But it's pretty interesting listening.
[36:42.630 --> 36:44.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I don't think we have that at the moment, do we?
[36:44.830 --> 36:45.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: No.
[36:45.770 --> 36:49.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we'll get that and we'll redo it on a future show.
[36:51.390 --> 36:54.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's typical of ham radio operators whenever there's a natural disaster.
[36:54.430 --> 36:55.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: They train for this sort of thing.
[36:55.890 --> 36:56.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's all volunteers.
[36:57.410 --> 37:11.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: And when the typical commercial infrastructure goes down, ham radio operators are almost always there first with acting as a network to get communications in and out of these areas.
[37:12.330 --> 37:21.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, hopefully your friend is okay, but we'll keep updating people on that and, of course, updating people on your situation when you get over there.
[37:21.930 --> 37:27.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: But now, to update people, you're on a bus heading to the airport right now on your way to Thailand.
[37:29.810 --> 37:30.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that correct?
[37:31.210 --> 37:32.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sorry, you dropped that.
[37:36.810 --> 37:37.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: right now.
[37:37.450 --> 37:46.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I'm on the New Jersey turnpike on a bus with about 20-some Chinese people, and we'll be getting a JFK probably within half an hour.
[37:46.850 --> 37:51.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe there's a chance that, well, probably not, a chance you'd be going through airport security while on the phone.
[37:52.050 --> 37:52.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, unfortunately.
[37:53.090 --> 37:57.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was kind of hoping that would happen, but I don't think it'll work out this time.
[37:57.410 --> 37:58.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we have something almost as good.
[37:59.070 --> 37:59.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I think it's better.
[38:00.990 --> 38:06.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our friend Redbird, who is here in Berlin, went through airport security in New York.
[38:07.710 --> 38:08.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: And guess what?
[38:08.830 --> 38:09.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: He was flagged.
[38:10.090 --> 38:17.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: He had the four S's on the bottom of his boarding pass, just like I got both ways to L.A., just like so many people that have written to us have gotten.
[38:19.270 --> 38:20.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Except he did something a little bit different.
[38:21.090 --> 38:24.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to hand the phone over to Redbird, who's going to tell you the adventure that he went through.
[38:25.950 --> 38:36.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alright, well, like Emmanuel said, I was flagged, which I guess is no surprise to a lot of people listening on the way, from Newark to Chicago, O'Hare.
[38:37.250 --> 38:44.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I got the boarding passes, and I was flying on United Airlines, and the boarding passes that United gives you have a magnetic stripe.
[38:44.550 --> 38:49.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know not all airlines have that, but they use it to, I guess, speed up boarding the plane.
[38:49.770 --> 38:54.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: They stick it through a reader at the gate, and I guess it just speeds up everything.
[38:55.490 --> 38:56.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I was flagged.
[38:56.850 --> 39:09.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: I had the S's, and I'm not going to go through everything that they do, because I'm sure you've all heard it before, but it's just a very thorough searching of everything you're carrying on and everything on your person.
[39:10.290 --> 39:15.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Redbird, you knew you were flagged how long before you actually were physically pulled aside?
[39:16.230 --> 39:22.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, as soon as I get the boarding pass, which is as soon as I arrive at the airport and check any luggage that I may have to check.
[39:22.210 --> 39:23.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you had several hours.
[39:23.330 --> 39:30.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, if you were someone with ill intent, which we know you're not, but you would have had several hours to make alternate plans if you were up to no good, right?
[39:30.630 --> 39:31.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly, exactly.
[39:31.550 --> 39:33.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you know it when you get the boarding pass.
[39:33.810 --> 39:34.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: It is very pointless.
[39:36.390 --> 39:41.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: But another interesting thing is is I had a mag stripe reader.
[39:42.110 --> 39:43.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of like a custom reader.
[39:46.010 --> 39:51.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's made from cheap surplus parts, which actually this wasn't questioned at all when they were searching me.
[39:52.110 --> 40:03.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: But basically it's a reader where the magnetic head is interfaced to the mic input port of a sound card, which I described this design vaguely before on one of the shows.
[40:03.670 --> 40:07.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it uses custom software to decode the stripe.
[40:07.850 --> 40:17.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: And because of this, I'm also able to use the mic input of an MP3 recorder and swipe it and analyze the stripe later.
[40:17.290 --> 40:20.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I could do this very compactly without a laptop or anything.
[40:20.530 --> 40:30.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I brought the boarding pass into the bathroom so I wasn't spotted, read the stripe, and I found a bunch of information on the two different boarding passes I had.
[40:30.530 --> 40:36.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: One boarding pass was from EWR to ORD, O'Hare, and then from there to Amsterdam.
[40:37.190 --> 40:42.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the one from O'Hare to Amsterdam I obviously wasn't flagged because I was already in the secure area.
[40:42.550 --> 40:46.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: So one of these boarding passes had the S's, the other one didn't.
[40:46.890 --> 40:47.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I scanned both of them.
[40:48.150 --> 40:51.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: They all have three tracks on the magnetic stripe.
[40:52.070 --> 40:54.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'll just read some of the data that was on there.
[40:55.750 --> 41:03.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: First of all, all the tracks are in IATA format, which is an alphanumeric format, and this is similar to the format that you'll find on...
[41:03.290 --> 41:08.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, this is the format that you'll find on track one of standard credit cards, ATM cards that you may have.
[41:10.330 --> 41:14.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: The length is 60 alphanumeric digits.
[41:16.450 --> 41:19.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I'll read you some of the information that I found on each track.
[41:19.410 --> 41:25.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: On track one, the first character is an S, and track one and two seem to start with the same character.
[41:25.490 --> 41:29.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: The next three characters are the initial airport that is the airport that you started from.
[41:29.870 --> 41:32.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the three characters after that are the destination airport.
[41:32.610 --> 41:35.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: In my case, this was EWR and ORD for the first flight.
[41:35.930 --> 41:41.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: The two characters after that seem to be the airline, which for me was UA, you know, flew on United.
[41:43.270 --> 41:46.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Four characters after that would be the flight number.
[41:47.170 --> 41:50.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Six characters after that seem to be some sort of passenger number.
[41:51.870 --> 41:58.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: The 26 characters after that seem to be a slightly different passenger number and the passenger's name.
[41:59.490 --> 42:01.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: The five after that seem to be the C number.
[42:02.130 --> 42:06.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then there's two after that, and this is where it gets interesting.
[42:06.530 --> 42:12.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: On the boarding pass that was flagged for me to be searched, this was set to an S.
[42:12.470 --> 42:13.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: The other one was set to a G.
[42:14.510 --> 42:16.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kind of funny, stop and go possibly.
[42:16.310 --> 42:32.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, so this is marked on the magnetic stripe, which seems, it seems to me that if they wanted to flag people, this would be a good place to put it and not actually somewhere where you can easily read it on the boarding pass.
[42:34.450 --> 42:41.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, another interesting thing is on track two, which was blank on the boarding pass where it wasn't flagged.
[42:41.110 --> 42:42.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: There were no S's on this boarding pass.
[42:42.950 --> 42:47.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: There was some extra data on the boarding pass where I was flagged, and I'll read this as well.
[42:48.190 --> 43:03.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: There were, first it was padded with 20 spaces, then there was a C, a space, 13190-2, and six asterisks, and then it was padded with 24 more spaces on the right.
[43:04.070 --> 43:12.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: So this could possibly be some type of code describing possibly why the passenger was flagged or some other data we don't really know yet.
[43:12.910 --> 43:14.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: We may try to get more samples to find it.
[43:14.970 --> 43:18.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Robert, which airline were these boarding passes issued by?
[43:19.090 --> 43:19.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: United.
[43:20.350 --> 43:20.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[43:20.850 --> 43:26.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm looking at the China airline boarding passes I have here, and they have no magnetic stripe on the back of them.
[43:26.930 --> 43:30.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: So it's kind of interesting that this isn't standardized across all the airlines yet.
[43:31.110 --> 43:31.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[43:31.630 --> 43:33.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know some airlines, does it have a barcode?
[43:34.570 --> 43:38.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no barcode and no mag stripe on the back.
[43:38.010 --> 43:45.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: The front of it, though, is all OCR characters, like all the alphamere characters are printed in a machine-readable font.
[43:46.230 --> 43:46.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[43:46.670 --> 43:52.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if they're magnetic like micro-ink or not, but they could be scanned optically and read that way.
[43:52.770 --> 43:59.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: But there's no non-human-readable encoding anywhere on these boarding passes from China.
[43:59.510 --> 44:03.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, China Airlines is not actually China that we're used to hearing about.
[44:03.250 --> 44:08.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's actually Taiwan, which some people would argue was part of China, but they would argue otherwise.
[44:09.890 --> 44:15.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: So it's a Taiwanese airline, and they are not encoding their boarding passes yet.
[44:16.710 --> 44:17.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[44:17.150 --> 44:18.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: It seems to be different with different airlines.
[44:19.130 --> 44:27.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then the last thing that I just want to mention real quick as far as any technical details of this is Track 3 has no data, but it is padded with spaces.
[44:27.970 --> 44:29.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: So there is stuff on the stripe.
[44:29.510 --> 44:30.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's just no data there.
[44:31.230 --> 44:37.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: So if anyone has any suggestions as to what this could possibly be, what these extra characters could be on the...
[44:37.530 --> 44:43.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Only on the Track 2 field where you are flagged, there's data.
[44:44.050 --> 44:49.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: But then again, I only have two samples, so I can't totally verify this, but that seems to be the case.
[44:50.510 --> 44:58.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: So to any terrorist, if you somehow manage to scrape the S's off of your boarding pass, they'll still know that you were flagged because this isn't coded on the stripe.
[44:59.750 --> 45:08.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I would like to point out that the New York Times has articles every Tuesday on flying and the various security things.
[45:08.610 --> 45:20.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: They might be interested in doing an article or reporting on you if you decide to ask for more samples from our listening public of boarding passes, both when they've been flagged and when they haven't been flagged.
[45:20.570 --> 45:29.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a problem with that because they take the boarding pass from you and actually, there's a perforation through the magnetic stripe.
[45:29.390 --> 45:34.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's possible that the magnetic stripe is completely destroyed after you board the plane.
[45:35.330 --> 45:39.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's very tough unless you have a magnetic stripe reader in the airport itself.
[45:39.970 --> 45:46.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I guess hanging out near a gate with a mag stripe reader eventually would raise someone's curiosity if you don't want it to.
[45:46.910 --> 45:48.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's probably not a good idea.
[45:48.250 --> 45:58.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: So eventually I will publicize the design of this so you can make these readers very cheaply if anybody else wants to do this.
[45:59.430 --> 46:04.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it really does bring a suspicious bathroom activity to a new level.
[46:05.090 --> 46:07.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, hopefully they don't put cameras in the bathrooms anytime soon.
[46:09.750 --> 46:12.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, and I could describe this and how to do it.
[46:12.970 --> 46:21.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you could really make a reader for less than $10 if you do have a laptop or other audio device.
[46:21.210 --> 46:22.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you wonder why you got flagged.
[46:24.110 --> 46:25.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'll pass you back to Emmanuel now.
[46:27.470 --> 46:42.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: I really got to hand it to Redbird for having the cool-headedness to after being flagged as if that's not traumatic enough to actually take the thing into the bathroom with a card reader and actually be able to read it and get the data.
[46:43.370 --> 46:45.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's simply amazing.
[46:45.210 --> 46:53.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's in our interest to send him to as many places as we can so that he'll be flagged in the future and we can get all kinds of different numbers.
[46:54.030 --> 46:59.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you're out there and you're getting flagged and you have a credit card reader, I suggest you do the same thing.
[46:59.270 --> 47:00.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Give us the information.
[47:00.210 --> 47:06.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or if you're one of those people in the industry that knows what these digits mean, please let us know as well.
[47:07.410 --> 47:12.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: We only have a few minutes left, so I would like to open up to phone calls 212-209-2900.
[47:13.010 --> 47:21.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you have any comments on the many things we've been talking about during this radio program, this is one of those nights I just wish we had a couple of hours because there's just so much that's been going on.
[47:22.390 --> 47:25.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: How can people send us this information should they have it?
[47:25.330 --> 47:37.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, gosh, we have the email address that's O-T-H at 2600.com 2600.com Or they could post a letter in the U.S.
[47:37.410 --> 47:48.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Postal Service to Off the Hook care of WBAI 120 Wall Street New York New York 1-0-0-0-5 USA Did you add a zero, Jim?
[47:49.350 --> 47:50.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, three zeros.
[47:50.530 --> 47:51.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: I thought you added a zero.
[47:52.030 --> 47:53.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: It sounded like you added an extra one.
[47:53.050 --> 47:55.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's just the transatlantic echo.
[47:55.810 --> 47:58.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Ken's counting and he only spotted three of them.
[47:59.050 --> 47:59.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[47:59.610 --> 48:00.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's good then.
[48:01.250 --> 48:03.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: 2-2-2-0-9-2-9-0-9-2-9-0-9-0-9-0-9-0-9-0-9-0-9-0-9-0-9-0-9-0-9-0-9-0.
[48:03.390 --> 48:04.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mike, do we have any phone calls?
[48:04.510 --> 48:05.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: We do.
[48:05.270 --> 48:08.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we've taken one who's on the air now.
[48:08.930 --> 48:09.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, hi.
[48:09.690 --> 48:13.150]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm a frequent flyer and I've had the four S's of death before.
[48:13.470 --> 48:18.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: What I'm wondering is what would happen if you know when you change your seat you get a new boarding pass?
[48:19.270 --> 48:21.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I've always meant I'm going to try this and I didn't have a chance.
[48:22.170 --> 48:30.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: I wonder if they change your boarding pass for any reason, if the flagging stays along with you and you still get the four S's.
[48:30.430 --> 48:35.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, most people don't change boarding passes, but that's what happens when they issue you a new seat.
[48:36.130 --> 48:37.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's an experiment to be done.
[48:39.990 --> 48:48.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: So if one of you guys on the flight back gets flagged again, you might want to try changing your seat and see if the new boarding passes have it as well.
[48:48.870 --> 48:56.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because what's not obvious is it's random by individual and it stays with the individual, although by now you guys may not be so random.
[48:56.270 --> 49:02.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or is it just random by seat almost and you can change your luck?
[49:02.690 --> 49:04.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a good experiment if it is in fact random.
[49:04.770 --> 49:12.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you find yourself with the four S's and you have not yet gone through security, yeah, why not go back and say I'd like a different seat and see what they do.
[49:12.770 --> 49:21.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I imagine that the people behind the counter are trained to see the four S's and to act upon it and say, well, you're going to get four more S's when you get a new seat.
[49:22.270 --> 49:25.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe a different letter, too, on top of that.
[49:25.890 --> 49:29.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Although, remember, they say that the people at the counter have no control over it.
[49:30.410 --> 49:32.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're not supposed to be able to add the S.
[49:33.070 --> 49:35.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's supposed to be generated by the computer.
[49:35.570 --> 49:36.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: I haven't heard that.
[49:37.210 --> 49:42.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think if you look suspicious, they could add as many S's as they want.
[49:42.750 --> 49:47.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, they can do anything they want, but at least that was the understanding.
[49:47.850 --> 49:50.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I'll definitely try it the next time I'm flying.
[49:50.270 --> 49:56.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if I do run into the S's, I'll see what happens and be glad to email you guys and report in.
[49:56.870 --> 50:04.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: And one other point, as we're flying back here from Europe, we can't get any S's because the TSA doesn't operate out here.
[50:05.330 --> 50:11.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, that's true, although, if you're flying direct, if you're connecting, there's still always the privilege of the connecting flight.
[50:12.390 --> 50:12.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Sure.
[50:13.310 --> 50:14.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Alright, thank you for the call.
[50:14.550 --> 50:14.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you.
[50:15.310 --> 50:15.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bye-bye.
[50:16.330 --> 50:20.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, um, sounds like he's in a wind tunnel, but, uh, let's try this one.
[50:20.970 --> 50:21.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello, you're on the air.
[50:23.510 --> 50:23.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello?
[50:24.410 --> 50:25.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, guys.
[50:25.350 --> 50:25.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi.
[50:26.230 --> 50:27.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Greetings from, uh, Iraq.
[50:28.050 --> 50:28.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wow.
[50:28.590 --> 50:29.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, it's our Iraqi caller.
[50:30.110 --> 50:30.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, uh...
[50:30.650 --> 50:30.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Will.
[50:31.010 --> 50:31.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello, Will.
[50:33.230 --> 50:33.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good.
[50:33.690 --> 50:34.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: How's it going, guys?
[50:35.270 --> 50:36.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: You seem to have a...
[50:36.210 --> 50:38.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Get the, uh, picture of the person on up there.
[50:39.050 --> 50:39.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hang on.
[50:39.850 --> 50:49.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: If we're talking to Iraq, and we're in Europe, and Bernie's on a bus, and, uh, you know, heading to an airport, we're all going to have to sort of, uh, uh, give each other time to, to deal with satellites and things like that.
[50:49.250 --> 50:52.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: So let's let our caller from Iraq, uh, say the first words here.
[50:52.510 --> 50:54.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: I got my voice over IP.
[50:57.530 --> 50:57.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[50:58.070 --> 50:59.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: That didn't work out too well.
[51:00.330 --> 51:01.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bernie, you want to try?
[51:01.730 --> 51:08.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I was just going to say that, uh, I've been corresponding with Will, and, uh, boarding his messages to the OTH at 2600.com.
[51:09.210 --> 51:15.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's using a service called Packet 8, so he can, uh, he can call in, uh, you know, virtually for free from Iraq.
[51:15.670 --> 51:17.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can you, can you talk a little bit about that, Will?
[51:18.130 --> 51:23.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we noticed there's a, uh, a strong latency, but your audio quality sounds very good from Iraq.
[51:25.390 --> 51:30.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Audio quality of the, uh, voice over IP box out here on this Packet 8, uh, is actually pretty good.
[51:30.090 --> 51:39.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, we ended up getting this because we found out that the, uh, government was going to be cutting off, uh, a certain DSN access from Moscow and being able to call back the states and make morale calls.
[51:39.490 --> 51:44.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: But for some reason, um, we can attach these boxes to the network and they're not blocking those at all.
[51:44.770 --> 51:47.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, uh, that's pretty much a popular thing right now.
[51:47.810 --> 51:54.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot of my, uh, co-workers out here are getting these Packet 8 boxes and jacking them into the network and it seems to be on where we can actually call them.
[51:56.390 --> 51:56.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hmm.
[51:59.090 --> 52:02.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: There, as has been said, the latency on this is, is not so good.
[52:03.810 --> 52:10.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Will is, uh, I would like to point out to our listeners that Will is, uh, Will is the caller who called last week and we hung up on accidentally.
[52:13.450 --> 52:15.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: This week, I guess, we're a lot more patient.
[52:15.510 --> 52:18.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it's just, uh, just a quick couple of seconds is all it was.
[52:18.410 --> 52:19.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, hey, it's okay, guys.
[52:19.270 --> 52:24.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: I just wanted to give you a call and, uh, give you some shots and say, uh, hey, guy, Bernie, be safe over there, would you please?
[52:25.930 --> 52:28.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Before, before we let Will go, we haven't let him go yet, have we?
[52:28.850 --> 52:29.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: No.
[52:29.530 --> 52:34.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, uh, just sort of as, as, um, I guess he let himself go.
[52:34.430 --> 52:38.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, I was, what I was going to say was I'd like to hear all the different clicks and things.
[52:38.730 --> 52:39.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, that might be Bernie.
[52:40.150 --> 52:40.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, we've lost Bernie.
[52:40.990 --> 52:41.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very horrible sound.
[52:43.310 --> 52:44.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, is he gone?
[52:44.270 --> 52:46.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: We, we lost Bernie and Will, I think.
[52:46.370 --> 52:47.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: They went off together.
[52:47.710 --> 52:48.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[52:49.170 --> 52:52.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, maybe we can, uh, reach Bernie before, uh, before the show ends.
[52:52.710 --> 52:59.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, back in the old days when people made long-distance phone calls, uh, you'd hear all kinds of, uh, clicks and tweets and things like that.
[52:59.250 --> 53:09.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was sort of hoping maybe to take a trip down memory lane, uh, but obviously, uh, uh, that, that was, uh, a call from someone who was, uh, over in Iraq on, on behalf of the U.S.
[53:09.150 --> 53:11.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: government, uh, not somebody who actually lives in Iraq.
[53:12.670 --> 53:18.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, it's interesting that, uh, you know, communications, uh, enable this kind of thing to happen.
[53:18.110 --> 53:21.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, back in the Vietnam days, you certainly couldn't get calls like that.
[53:22.370 --> 53:31.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, it's, it's still a big deal, obviously, but it's, um, uh, you know, you're talking to people on IRC and ICQ and things like that, and, and, you know, they're, they're over there.
[53:31.950 --> 53:33.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just, uh, it's a very strange thing.
[53:33.790 --> 53:35.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: I still can't wrap my head around it.
[53:35.810 --> 53:37.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, shall we take another phone call?
[53:37.970 --> 53:40.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, we shall, and we have Bernie back with us.
[53:40.710 --> 53:46.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, apparently Sprint PCS is not as reliable as, uh, a call from Iraq through Packity.
[53:47.490 --> 53:51.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, uh, and we've got this person on the air, or not.
[53:51.970 --> 53:52.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know that person.
[53:53.130 --> 53:53.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[53:54.230 --> 53:56.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, we are, we are running out of time, by the way.
[53:57.070 --> 53:57.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have about two minutes.
[53:58.190 --> 53:58.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's all right, yep.
[53:59.290 --> 53:59.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, and...
[53:59.830 --> 54:00.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're on the air.
[54:01.490 --> 54:01.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: No.
[54:02.550 --> 54:03.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm just as lucky as you.
[54:04.050 --> 54:04.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[54:04.750 --> 54:05.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's try this one.
[54:05.930 --> 54:06.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: That one.
[54:06.610 --> 54:07.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi.
[54:07.270 --> 54:07.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi.
[54:07.610 --> 54:28.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, uh, in response to the frequent flyer, um, he says that if you change your seat, um, the S's will still be on your, um, on your record, and, um, the, the magnetic strip, uh, that is on, behind the boarding card is a, um, a record of your record locator,
[54:28.490 --> 54:39.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: your ticket number, so that when we, um, um, we scan the, uh, the boarding card at the gate, it takes him off the, uh, check-in list and puts him on the on list that he's on the flight.
[54:40.950 --> 54:42.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you work for an airline?
[54:42.790 --> 54:43.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: Definitely.
[54:44.050 --> 54:46.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow, it sounds like you know what you're talking about there.
[54:46.270 --> 54:46.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[54:47.310 --> 54:50.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, can, can you tell us how somebody might be flagged?
[54:50.890 --> 55:07.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, if they buy a one-way ticket, cash, I mean, you guys already know that, um, that's a, that's a flash right away, and, um, if, um, the person behind the counter sees that you're, you're questionable, your behavior is questionable, they'll flag you.
[55:07.790 --> 55:08.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: So they can flag you?
[55:09.030 --> 55:10.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: They can flag you, yes, definitely.
[55:10.890 --> 55:11.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's what I thought.
[55:11.490 --> 55:11.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[55:11.910 --> 55:27.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if you don't have, if you don't have your, uh, ID, a valid ID, uh, when you're traveling, uh, a driver's license or a passport, um, they can, um, send you through security, but they, they, they make you go through a selective process.
[55:28.030 --> 55:28.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[55:28.450 --> 55:33.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, we're out of time, but we'd love to hear more details about this, so please call us back in a future show.
[55:33.410 --> 55:33.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[55:34.270 --> 55:34.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[55:34.990 --> 55:35.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Take care.
[55:35.270 --> 55:38.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: And thanks so much for, for, for, for, for, uh, you know, being open with the information.
[55:38.790 --> 55:39.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[55:39.570 --> 55:40.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Take care.
[55:40.030 --> 55:40.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Take care.
[55:41.370 --> 55:41.690]  Bye.
[55:42.230 --> 55:45.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess that's going to just about do it for us here tonight.
[55:45.170 --> 55:46.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, it's been a fascinating show.
[55:46.670 --> 55:51.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bernie on his way to Thailand, uh, we're over here in Europe, and, uh, next week I'll be back in the studio.
[55:51.430 --> 55:54.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and who knows what will happen between now and then.
[55:54.430 --> 55:58.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks again to Ken for engineering, uh, for us this weekend last.
[55:59.030 --> 56:03.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this has been Off the Hook on WBAI New York 99.5 FM.
[56:04.090 --> 56:04.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good night.
[56:05.270 --> 56:05.570]  Good night.
[56:57.900 --> 56:59.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[56:59.860 --> 57:01.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[57:01.700 --> 57:02.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[57:02.900 --> 57:07.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can listen to it.
[57:10.040 --> 57:19.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's the most spectacular day, the most beautiful that there is.
[57:19.640 --> 57:28.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Verde, rojo y amarillo, azul, morado, blanco, todos brillan igual.
[57:28.860 --> 57:35.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uno, dos, tres, cuatro mil, ocho mil, lo que tú busques es amar.
[57:53.700 --> 58:02.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hoy es, tal vez hoy es un día especial, lo puedes escuchar.
[58:04.440 --> 58:13.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hoy es el día más espectacular, el más bello que hay.
[58:15.120 --> 58:19.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: Rojo, naranja, amarillo subiendo va.
[58:19.660 --> 58:23.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Verde, azul, morado, todos brillan igual.
[58:23.960 --> 58:30.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uno, dos, tres, cuatro, cinco, sesenta mil, todos ya listos.
[58:31.440 --> 58:32.080]  Rojo,
[58:58.950 --> 59:01.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: naranja, amarillo subiendo va.
[59:01.570 --> 59:05.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Verde, azul, morado, todos brillan al sol.
[59:05.850 --> 59:10.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uno, dos, tres, cuatro, cinco, sesenta mil.
[59:10.010 --> 59:15.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: Por los cuatro rumbos alzándose el día de hoy.
[59:15.150 --> 59:20.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hoy es, tal vez hoy es un día especial.
[59:24.720 --> 59:28.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Es el día más espectacular.