Dear listeners, this is Indra Hardat, Interim General Manager of WBAI, asking for your support
as we begin our Fall Fund Drive, which runs from Wednesday, October 4th through Saturday,
October 28th.
The goal for this drive is $900,000.
We are counting on you during the entire drive to help us take telephone pledges, especially
between the hours of 7 a.m. and 12 noon.
Please remember, we can only keep WBAI the strong, compelling, provocative, and uncensored
radio that you are accustomed to with your help.
So please spread the word around, and thank you for your continued support.
And you're listening to radio station W, sorry about that, WBAI New York, where the time
is 7 o'clock on a Wednesday night.
Time once again for Off the Hook.
And you're listening to radio station W, sorry about that, WBAI New York, where the
time is 7 o'clock on a Wednesday night.
And very good evening to everybody.
The program is Off the Hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
And it's actually the first of two fundraiser shows we're going to be doing during this
football marathon that we have here at the radio station, which just began today.
And I must say, I'm a little disappointed by the numbers so far.
We're at zero.
Well, I guess, in all fairness, Mike, we didn't ask anybody to call yet, did we?
I thought I turned your mic on, but go ahead.
Should we just give the number right now for people who already know how wonderful things
are?
Yes.
If you know that you just want to give us lots of money and keep the station going,
keep the show going, then the number to call is 212-209-2950.
We've also given that number out over the internet so that those of you who listen to
the show in some sort of delay, days or even weeks from now, can call during this time
slot and pledge your support to the program.
And the tally people at the other end will be happy to help you pick out the pledge level
because we have all sorts of different items to give away.
We'll be getting into that in just a little bit.
But first, let's introduce people tonight.
As pre-mentioned, we have Mike over there.
Hello.
And it looks like Redbird over in the distance.
Good evening.
And Lynn, is that you over here from Atlanta, right?
Yes, I'm here.
You came all the way up for the marathon.
If we can have that kind of commitment from our listeners, then I think we'll be in pretty
good shape.
And of course, Jim, you're here as well.
Yes, I am.
And we have a bunch of our usual staff people down in the tally room as well helping out.
Of course, we can always use more help.
And Bernie.
Bernie joins us from Philadelphia on the telephone.
Tally of one.
What does that mean?
Tally of one?
Well, I'll be pledging later.
Oh, you will be.
See, that's the thing that's really so cool is that a lot of our people here on the show
pledge.
So we really believe in this as well.
So people know none of us get paid for this.
It's all volunteer.
And we spend lots of time getting the show together.
And hopefully, you get something out of it as well.
That's what our main goal is in doing this show.
We've been doing it in some form since 1988 as a regular series since, I believe, 1992.
And hopefully, we'll be able to do it for many years to come.
Let's look at a couple of pieces of news and then we'll go to some special guests that
we have.
How about this?
And Jim, this might be of interest to you because it concerns the MTA, your former employer,
the people who drive the subways and buses around the city of New York.
Do you know that they're getting ready to test a laser system designed to detect trespassers
in subway tunnels?
I have a strange sense of deja vu.
Didn't we mention this?
Did we talk about this?
You know, I guess you're right.
But still, isn't it interesting?
It's fascinating.
It's so interesting we should talk about it twice.
But yeah, OK, we did talk about this last week, I think.
They're going to detect trespassers by shooting laser beams or something like that.
Right.
And the nice thing is that this is not only detection but suppression.
All right, well, yeah.
And also, another piece of news, which I don't think we talked about, is that the screaming
cell phones, apparently in the United Kingdom, this company is hoping a cell phone security
system will set off a high-pitched scream, which alerts people that this is in fact a
stolen phone or a lost phone.
And it halts, I guess it erases all the data on the phone.
It's called remote XT technology.
It's designed to make phones unusable.
Can you imagine that?
You invent technology just to make phones unusable and therefore worthless if they're
stolen.
It works by installing software onto the operating system of the phone, which is then activated
via a call to a call center once users realize their phone has been snatched or lost.
The phone is then remotely disabled and all the data held in the device is wiped and a
high-pitched screech is triggered.
You know, if it makes the phone unusable, what's the point of the screech at that point
unless you're trying to get it back?
Yeah, you could either try to get it back or at least have the guy arrested.
Go to any of the major networks and look for this story.
They will certainly have a clip.
The sound is absolutely unbelievable.
It is worth listening to.
Oh, they have the sound.
You haven't found this?
No.
I figured you'd have a clip.
I was looking for it.
I saw this a couple nights ago overnight on just about every channel, different story.
Do you think you can go to the computer here and find it on the website?
I might.
I'll try.
Okay.
Jim's going to go over and try to find that.
But yeah, they describe it this way.
We set a small bomb off, if you like, that completely wipes the data.
If it has genuinely been stolen, then it renders the phone useless to the thief and
it makes a loud squealing noise, which is enough to distract a restaurant if it went
off and it completely locks the phone.
I can just imagine the fun we're going to have with this technology once we start playing
with it.
Well, one of the things that the cell phone companies, the providers, claim is that once
you report a phone as stolen and depending on whatever protocol they use, like if they
disable the IMEI of the phone, their claim is that they can-
Disable the what?
Disable the IMEI.
It's a unique identifier for the phone.
Okay.
And different protocols use different identifiers and whatnot.
But their claim is that once they disable it, or for the most part, the provider's claim
is that once they disable it, they'll never be able to enable it again on their network
once it propagates in the IMEI.
Well, then what's the point?
Well, that's what I'm worried about with this technology.
How quick should you be to report your phone as stolen?
Because there's a lot of instances where people have lost phones and the person who has found
it calls the number marked home or calls a friend or something and asks whose phone it
is.
Well, and also, apparently what happens is the noise keeps continuing until you take
the phone's battery out, but it starts again as soon as you put it back in.
I am replacing the SIM card, has absolutely no effect on this.
Emmanuel?
Yeah, it's Bernie.
So, if you get your phone back because it's screaming and the thief runs away in fear,
then you can't even get it reactivated again, according to these carriers.
That doesn't make a lot of sense.
No, it doesn't.
I have a feeling we're missing something in this story.
This is just something that I've heard from U.S. carriers when you report your phone as
stolen on their networks.
They totally disable it on their network and theoretically cannot enable it again.
Not theoretically, reportedly cannot.
What would be fun is if you reported somebody else's phone stolen that isn't stolen and
all of a sudden their phone starts screaming at them and they can't stop it.
Yeah, you see, every bit of technology has the evil side and that's what we're here to
reveal to people, how it can be misused.
Emmanuel?
Yes, Bernie.
This is actually not a new technology.
For probably over 10 years, law enforcement has been using a variation of this called
OTAR, which is an acronym for Over-the-Air Reprogramming, on a lot of their handheld
radios, particularly sensitive handheld 2-way radios like the Secret Service and FBI and
DEA use, State Department, that sort of thing.
All those 2-way radios, walkie-talkies, have special, unique identifiers in them and should
one become lost or stolen, the system can deactivate the radio remotely using over-the-air
reprogramming.
They can also reprogram encryption keys on the phones remotely, that sort of thing for
key distribution.
But it's not a new technology, it's just new that it's being applied to consumer cell phones
and we'll see how well they implement it.
It's also interesting how, when a story does show up in the mass media, that all of a sudden
it becomes news when, as you say, it's old technology, has been around in some form,
and I guess the application might be a little bit different, but is this really something
that is that big a story?
I don't know.
We'll find out when the phones start to scream.
Jim, any luck?
You've been Googling now for a few minutes.
Not yet, no.
The problem is that they don't take a lot of entries.
Okay.
If somebody else finds it, I think they should let us know, Errol.
Well, why do you keep looking?
It's not good to give up.
It's not good to give up.
We encourage people to keep trying.
Could Jim simulate this sound?
No, let's not ask that.
Here's a letter, though.
You can send us your email, questions, and comments by emailing oth at 2600.com.
This is cell phone related from Bob.
During a recent Off the Hook, you mentioned cell phone privacy and how the phone does
not have to be making a call to reveal its location.
On most of the Verizon cell phones I have access to, there is an undocumented menu option
that gives access to some privacy settings.
The basic menu options are 1 to 6, but if you enter 0, it prompts for a service code.
If you enter all 0s, enter all 0s when it prompts for the service code,
a new series of menus is revealed, a new secret list of options.
Under the GPS menu, there is a privacy option with options of none,
which is how they were set initially, medium, or high.
I have no way of knowing if this has any effect or not.
I've gotten into that menu a few times on different phones,
and you're right, it is all 0s.
I don't know if it has an effect.
Redbird, you're shaking your head.
It has no effect on their ability to track you using other methods like triangulation
and reports from the cell phone towers that your phone is associated with.
No, it doesn't disable that, but does it disable GPS?
It may disable GPS, I don't know.
But that still has no bearing on whether or not they're able to track you
when your cell phone's on.
Okay, well, again, Verizon phones go to the secret menu
by hitting all 0s and play around.
But you can do bad things to your phone if you're not careful,
so just make sure it goes back the way you had it set.
One thing you can change, I know this is kind of fun,
you can change your screen to read the strength of the transmitter
that you're currently using, and I think some other information
local to your phone.
Okay, Jim, any luck? No?
Okay, we're going to move on.
We're going to move on.
We have some interesting things to discuss tonight
as far as fundraising issues.
We have several guests here to talk about various things
that they're offering us today.
With us on the phone, live from Hong Kong,
the author of the book Hacking the Cable Modem,
What Cable Companies Don't Want You to Know.
Dear Engel, are you with us?
Yes, I am.
And you're in Hong Kong right now, correct?
That's correct.
Okay, we're sorry for calling you this early in the morning.
It must be, what, about 7 in the morning there now?
It's about 7, 15 a.m.
You're exactly 12 hours ahead of us.
So, yeah, it's Thursday morning where you are.
Well, now you put out this book,
which appears on No Storage Press,
about hacking cable modems.
First of all, what can you really do
as far as hacking your cable modem?
Are we talking about getting free internet access here
or increased speeds?
What kinds of things can we think about?
Well, it's really a broad subject
because kind of similar with cell phones,
after a service provider gets a hold of the technology,
after they have it integrated into their customers,
after a while you see them start removing features
and then selling it back to the customers to make more money.
That is essentially what hacking the cable modem is about.
It's about removing the restrictions and limitations
that have been put on the cable modem
since its original implementation.
So what are some of those restrictions
that we'd want to bypass?
Well, there's a lot of...
The most popular ones are the bandwidth restrictions
and a lot of users who maybe have had
broadband cable internet for maybe seven years
will tell you that when they first installed them,
the modems were just smoking fast.
And that's because the service providers never restricted
the upload or download speeds of them.
But now almost every service provider in the U.S. does this.
Okay, so now when you say it was smoking fast
when you first hooked it up,
what speed reduction are we talking about over time?
Well, I remember it when at-home was big in the U.S.
I remember speeds of 10 megabits down and up
on their service.
And I think Roadrunner, when they first...
When Time Warner first had Roadrunner everywhere,
it was also just, you know, 1 meg file transfers,
you know, without any latency.
Uh-huh.
But now you hardly see those nowadays,
especially on Comcast, Adelphia, and so on.
Could this be because your next-door neighbor
has opened up a porn site or something like that
and everybody's going to it?
If everyone in your neighborhood has, but possibly not.
It's the fact that the service providers
want to control their customers.
They want to limit them.
A popular feature that has been, you know,
limited more recently is port filtering on cable modems.
Right.
The service provider doesn't want you running an FTP server
or an HTTP server.
Now, why don't they want you doing that?
Why is that?
Well, one reason that I have got from talking
with administrators from various cable companies
is that they want their business clients
to have access to web servers or FTP servers.
So, and those clients, obviously,
the accounts to provision
are much higher than regular customers.
So they don't want regular customers at all having it.
And if they call up,
they'll try to sell it to them as a business package.
And what kind of price difference are we talking about
between the business package and the residential package?
Well, residential packages
vary between $40 to $60,
and businesses range from $120 to $200.
I see.
So if you pay that excessive amount,
then do you get any kind of filtering
or controls or restrictions?
From what I've seen, I've seen some do,
but mostly they don't.
There'll be no filtering whatsoever.
One of the other claims that ISPs make a lot
by blocking ports 80 and 21 and whatever
and the NetBias ports
is that they're protecting their customers
from, quote-unquote, getting hacked by people
and having them run servers on their machines
and accidentally opening file-sharing ports
and stuff like that.
So that's a claim that they will make to ignorant users
as far as why they're doing that.
Yes, that's true, and I mention that in my book as well.
Especially with port 135,
they originally, and may have actually,
they originally implemented that filter
to block a virus.
But a year, two years down the line,
they don't remove it.
So that's another problem.
Now what's interesting for me to learn
is that they actually do this filtering
in the cable modem that's in your house.
They don't do it at their router or anywhere else.
It's actually your equipment,
and I guess if we read your book,
we can find out how to change that?
Yeah, correct.
It's done through LLC filters,
a protocol that's handled by the modem,
because basically a cable modem is just a router
with bridging to the cable provider.
So, you know, they want to have
some cable modems not filtered,
and they want to have the majority filtered.
So that's how they do it.
Now tell us something about your book,
Hacking the Cable Modem.
When did you start to write it?
What made you decide that this was an issue
that needed to be addressed?
Well, originally Bill Pollack
from No Search Press,
he approached me with the idea,
and he talked with me and asked me
if I thought there was enough information
available to put together a book.
And I thought about it,
and I realized that there is a lot of information.
Maybe not all of it is relevant
to hacking cable modems,
but I think there's definitely
a lot to put together
that would make a really nice book
that wouldn't just be completely
about cable modems,
but could also be used
towards other devices as well.
Because a lot of the methods
and procedures are very similar.
So I gave him basically back
some outlines of what I thought
would be a good book,
and we went from there.
Now, there are 23 chapters
in your book.
I imagine a lot of people listening now
who have cable modems
had no idea there were so many different aspects,
so many different things to talk about
insofar as simply hacking your cable modem.
You're talking about how to get a faster internet,
what's inside your cable modem,
reverse engineering,
the security inside the cable modem,
buffer overflows,
how to change the firmware,
hacking something called Webstar,
D-Link modems, all sorts of things.
There's a lot of information in here.
What kind of background
do you have as far as
playing with cable modems?
When did you first encounter one?
I think the first cable modem
I encountered was
LandCity.
It was in Phoenix, Arizona.
Those were non-DOCSIS
back in 1998,
I believe, or 1999.
It was a long time ago.
What does that mean, DOCSIS?
DOCSIS is a standard that
basically the cable companies all got together
and said, we need to make a standard
so that modems purchased
over here will work on our system
and have complete
compatibility.
That kind of spawned its own little creation
there, but
before that happened, there were lots of modems
that were
like, for example, LandCity
and
CyberSurfer, I believe, was also non-DOCSIS.
So a whole bunch of companies
from like Motorola and from
I think Bay Network
owned LandCity, and they had these
different modems that were not compatible.
So if you purchased a
LandCity modem in Phoenix
and you went over to somewhere in California,
it wouldn't work with the local provider.
And that's what
DOCSIS, the standard which
almost all modems in USA
now use.
Emmanuel? Yes, Bernie?
I have a copy of this book here, which
I've got to say, it's almost 300 pages
long, and
it's not just for people who want to hack their
cable modem, even though that's the title, Hacking
the Cable Modem, What Cable Companies Don't Want You
to Know. The subtitle
here is What the Cable Companies Don't Want
You to Know. There's a lot of really interesting
information here about
what companies,
corporations can do to
hardware that you have connected to their
network. And there's a lot of good information
in there, just general information about
reverse engineering, equipment
that you might know.
It's really a very interesting book just for people
who are curious, just who are hackers
at heart, who may not want to
physically hack their cable
modem, but really want to understand
what's going on in that
relationship between themselves
and their ISP.
This is pretty interesting stuff, and I
imagine, Dr. Engel, didn't you run
into some legal
hurdles trying to publish
a book like this? I understand
the Electronic Frontier Foundation
and some other lawyers really had to
scrutinize this book
and give some
suggestions to keep you
from being prosecuted.
Let me just step in here, though, before you answer
that question, because I do want to point out to the
listeners that we are offering
this book. It's been kindly
donated to the radio station, and you
can get a copy of it for yourself.
Hacking the Cable Modem, What the Cable Companies
Do Not Want You to Know
by simply calling 212-209-2950.
Pledge level
is $75 for a copy of this
book, which you won't find in
very many places, and which
is upsetting a lot of the cable companies, no question
about that, throughout this country and probably others
as well. 212-209-2950.
The pledge level
is $75 for this book, and with that
you also get an exclusive off-the-hook
t-shirt, which you can only get by pledging
to the radio station. So again,
212-209-2950.
Please
light up our phones and
help us keep this radio
show on the air, keep this radio station going.
Copies of Hacking the
Cable Modem from No Storage Press.
Again, 212-209-2950.
Now, Durango, if you could
answer Bernie's question as far as
how, what kinds of legal
things were you facing?
Well, I think any book
that has
the word hacking in the title
is going to have complications
when it comes to legal.
Tell me about it.
I guess the reason is because
the freedom in America
is being taken away
at a rapid rate,
and the First Amendment guarantees
freedom of the press.
Let me just step in here. We have six calls
on the line already, so people really seem to
want this.
I think you're striking a nerve as far as
people's curiosity and
hunger for information.
212-209-2950. Get yours before
they're gone, because this might happen very soon.
So please continue, Durango.
And this book
is an example of that freedom in action.
Because
originally
I wanted
to have the book completely uncensored
and just tell all.
And by tell all,
I basically included everything I
thought the average user
would need to know in the book.
And that includes
hardware schematics,
software examples,
and originally I had actually links
to every piece of software you would
need in the book.
However,
after NoStart sent a copy of this
to the Electronic
Frontier Foundation,
who, as you know, they do
a lot of legal work with
electronic
laws and such.
So I've heard.
They
thought a lot of the content
was very
needed
to be done with a light
touch, because
they felt that having
direct links to software,
for example, would
in a
courtroom be considered
encouraging someone.
What if you just told people keywords
to look for on Google or something like that?
How they could get this information?
Is that considered risky as well?
I think
anything
is risky
if you're talking about
circumventing
security,
breaking
protocols inside the modem.
I think any of that
is risky and
is also why
of how I set the book up.
Pretty much 50% of the book
is just
information-based,
where the reader can have a nice time
enjoying certain chapters
that maybe are not
hacking chapters,
but then later the book
goes into more hardcore hacking chapters
as it gets
a little
dirty within
opening up the modem, looking at
the firmware,
exploring with the code, trying to figure out
what's the best way to break
the modem, basically.
You're telling people how to break the modem, huh?
I have broken
hundreds of modems.
Now, what happens when you break a modem?
Doesn't the cable company get a little peeved?
Well, you don't want
to break their modem. That's why
you should always have a couple of spares lying around.
And where do you get the spares?
You can actually
purchase them in Walmart
or in any
computer store in America.
Oh, you can purchase cable modems in Walmart? I didn't know that.
I thought you had to get it through the cable company.
Well, I learned something.
Most cable modems, there are four cable modems
you can find at
almost any electronics store.
Fry's Electronics, CompUSA,
S5,
they all have them available for sale.
Okay, just to remind people again,
212-209-2950 is our phone number.
We're down to four calls now.
We're offering copies of
hacking the cable modem. What the cable
companies don't want you to know,
we only have 20 copies of these,
and the pledge level is $75.
So if we keep up this rate, we're going to be out of these pretty soon.
So please give us a call.
212-209-2950.
You'll also get an
off-the-hook t-shirt.
And most importantly, you'll be supporting
WBAI, keeping this place
where it has been since 1960
and hopefully many years into the future
where we can talk about things like this.
I don't think you could have this kind of conversation on a commercial station
Time Warner would probably either own you outright
or be taking out
sponsor Time.
Mass media seems to be pretty much
all in one particular
corner on items
like this. I think we learned that with the net neutrality
thing that
happened a few weeks ago where basically
every commercial you saw on television
was telling you how net neutrality was a bad thing
and how it was great that it was being defeated
because the channels that you
would hear this on, or the radio stations you would
hear this on, were owned by
the mass media companies
Time Warner and
Viacom and all these people.
You're not going to have a conversation like this.
You're not going to be able to have someone like Durangle
be on the air talking about
this book that he wrote
and the kind of
I guess
dismay it might cause in the boardrooms
of the big cable companies.
Do you think it has caused a lot of
problems?
Well, I've been publishing
papers and software for about five years
now on this subject
and it has definitely caused
problems in the past.
I know
there's one instance when a
cable provider who I won't mention
they
removed my
domain name from their server
and people who were trying to
email me couldn't email me
or come to the website or
any of that.
And that's an example of
basically corporations
trying to decide
what they think people should
listen to or watch or go to.
And that's
the kind of thing that they do. They erase you
from their records. That's their
tactics, their way of fighting back.
Yes, Bernie. Go ahead, Bernie.
I just wanted to say this is
a pretty amazing book.
It's about 300 pages. It's really kind of down
and dirty. I like the writing style you use,
Durangle, and there's got to be
well over 100
photographs and diagrams of
what's inside a cable modem
and what makes them tick
and why the cable ISPs
want to make them tick
the way they do tick.
That sort of thing.
It's really kind of a down and dirty
insider's look of what's going on
between a cable modem
and your carrier.
You can just flip
through this thing and it's really like a tour
of what's inside your cable modem, how it
works, how you can make it do what you want
to do, and why you would want
to do that and why the cable companies
wouldn't want you to do that. So I encourage
listeners to, if you're a cable
modem user, just curious about
how a cable modem works and
that relationship between the subscriber
and the corporation who wants to control what
they do, if you're interested in that,
please call 212-209-2950.
212-209-2950.
This is really worth pledging $75
for. It's a great book.
My question is, do you have to have some kind of technical
knowledge or background to understand
the points that are being raised in this book?
No.
I mean, it helps if you have a lot of technical knowledge
if you want to actually do
the hacking of your modem, but
a layperson could read this book
and get a lot out of it because it talks about
the concepts and why a cable company
would want to control what you do.
Okay.
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of chapters that are
some are technical, some are not.
I think chapters 10
which discuss buffer overflows,
that's kind of a hard concept
I think for most people to grasp
and chapter
21 which
discusses
a very difficult hack to perform.
But other than that, I think every
other chapter is very self-explanatory,
very useful
and can be applied not just to cable modems
but to any embedded
device.
Because the book is very diverse
and I believe anyone who
is willing to look past the cover
will get more out of it than
someone who is only interested in
hacking cable modems.
We have six calls on the line.
212-209-2950
As I said, we only have 20 of these, so
Tali, if you can let us know if
that gets exhausted, we'll
make sure to pass that along.
Now, Durango, if you could tell us, when did you actually
first write this book?
When did it come out?
It was first written back in
I believe it's
early 2005
and
it was published in stores
I think
about
September 10th.
Just out.
It was actually
the book was finished
actually
in December 2005
but there was a lot of
editing, a lot of changes made
Well, I imagine you
probably have to update things quite a bit
because cable modems are always changing, right?
That's true.
A good example of that
is when the book was actually published
it talked about DOCSIS 1
DOCSIS 2
and briefly talked about DOCSIS 3
Well, by the time it was published, DOCSIS 3 specification
had already came out
and was officially announced by CableLab
So it kind of shows you that
the information changes very quickly
and very rapidly.
I've never seen this kind of reaction so quickly
to anything we've offered. We have 9 calls
on the line right now, 212-209-2950
So I would caution people
if you're thinking about this, you'd better
think quickly because they're not going to last very much longer
212-209-2950
a pledge of $75 gets you a copy
of the book Hacking the Cable Modem
What Cable Companies Don't Want You to Know
written by Der Engel who's speaking to us live
very early in the morning from Hong Kong
and I want to thank you very much
for both writing the book
donating the book and talking to us
on the phone. And of course
this book comes from No Storage Press
Can you tell us something about
that publishing outfit?
Yeah, actually I flew to San Francisco
to meet with them on
2 different occasions
and discuss several layouts of the book
That is an awesome
company in America
and I can't
tell people enough
how important
a company like that is
because like you mentioned earlier
how big media is controlling
the media and controlling citizens
without a company like
No Storage Press, how could this
book ever have existed today?
Because it is such a taboo
subject and
it will offend
many people in the cable industry
and it just amazes
me that there are still good companies
in America
who still believe in the freedom
of free speech
Yes, absolutely, and fortunately we have
organizations like EFF to advise you
and keep you from straying into territory
where you might wind up regretting it or getting
in trouble with some legal entity
Now, so far
the book has just come out
Have you gotten any kind of
fierce backlash of any sort?
No, not yet
I was expecting
some, you know
outlash from
several cable frauders
in America
but I haven't actually received any hate mail
yet
All the reviews that I have read have been
very positive
and that's about it
That's great
212-209-2950
I see a couple of people are calling the on-air line
Don't call that line because you won't be able to pledge on that line
The phone number is not our usual
on-air number, it's
212-209-2950
And again, for a $75 pledge
you'll get a copy of Hacking the Cable Modem
what cable companies don't want you to know
along with an off-the-hook t-shirt
an exclusive t-shirt that
tells the world that you listen to this particular radio
program on this particular
radio station
Durango, I want to thank you very much
for being on
No problem
Any closing words you'd like to give us?
Yes
I'd like to say that
people should purchase this book
for the information
and they should purchase it
to learn how the cable modem works
and to learn hacking techniques
that can be applied to other devices
as well
and not to use it as something to break the law
that is something that
I have never condoned
Theft of Service
is a very serious crime
in every state
in America
and this book is just
to express freedom of speech
and to express
hacking
in general
Gathering knowledge
learning about how something works
You raise a very good point here
Opponents to this always raise the issue
what other possible use could you have
for knowledge like this
except to rip somebody off
or get something for nothing
but I think an understanding of how the technology works
and how perhaps it's being abused by those companies
and how we as consumers
are being victimized
I think that's something we all have the right to know
Exactly
It is knowledge
It is a tool
and it should not be used inappropriately
Okay Durango
Thank you again
It's 7.36 in the morning over there in Hong Kong
I want to thank you for taking time out
from over there to talk with us
Best of luck with the book
Will you be working on any other
volumes, any other topics
in the future?
I have a couple of
side projects that I'm working on
but before I start doing anything else
I like to get a very strong grasp
of the subject
and hopefully
these projects come out
and I will be able to show them to more people
Okay again, thanks so much
and best of luck
Okay, thank you very much for having me on
And that was Durango
the author of Hacking the Cable Modem
What Cable Companies Don't Want You to Know
and I don't know if we have any available still
We might have gone through that in lightning fast speed
but give it a shot
212-209-2950
for a pledge of $75
You may still be able to get a copy of the book
Hacking the Cable Modem
and an off-the-hook t-shirt
and I believe Mike you can just get the off-the-hook t-shirt
if that's what you want to
If you just want the t-shirt
or you maybe can't afford to spend $75
supporting the station
we do have just the t-shirt available
with your pledge of $25
We also have a membership to WBAI
which lets you vote in the famous elections
Puts you on all sorts of lists doesn't it
FBI, CIA
the agencies we don't even know about
It's great
Because they're always watching
They're spying on us right now
And it helps keep us on the air
Absolutely
So join this select group of people
and give us a call
212-209-2950
The people who call during this particular period
I feel like it happens a lot
but really when you consider how many times commercials
are on other radio stations
it doesn't happen all that often
These are the people who keep this radio station going
The people who make the phone call now
212-209-2950
You are the people that we thank
for making it all possible
and since 1960 that's what's been going on
here in New York City
We have a 50,000 watt radio station
that broadcasts in the middle of the FM band
and if you know anything about
commercial radio
We're right in the middle of the commercial band
Not the non-commercial ghetto below 92
We're in the middle of the commercial band
That's not possible
You could never get a radio station at that frequency
and have it be non-commercial
It just does not happen
So you guys make it possible
You make it continue to happen for us
And whether you're listening over the radio
or over the internet
I know that this radio station inspires people
wherever they happen to turn it on
Keep it going
You're the only way we can do that
212-209-2950
We have a couple different pledge options
$25 for the t-shirt
and $75 for the cable modem book
plus the t-shirt
And we have
another guest who's going to be joining us
live in the studio
We have Mike Aiello
You're the founder of
Differware
Am I right in saying that?
Differware
Did I say it right or wrong?
It's spelled D-I-F-R-W-E-A-R
Now what you may ask
is Differware
You guys were at Hope, right?
We were at Hope selling wallets
and passport cases
But these aren't just any wallets
and passport cases
What you've come up with
is a way of blocking RFID
Now this may be
something that people are
unfamiliar with at this stage
but I guarantee you this is something
that's going to be playing more and more
a part of all of our lives in the years ahead
RFID is a technology that
is going to be appearing on credit cards
and very soon on passports
probably on driver's licenses
and I guess eventually in our skin
We're going to be tracked and monitored
everywhere we go
and I think more and more people
are going to want to figure out ways
of getting around that
Mike, can you tell us something about
a typical application
of RFID and maybe something about
the whole technology in general
Sure. RFID has been around
a long time. It's just a little radio transmitter
that companies
use to control inventory
essentially. Walmart requires
you to have RFID if you're going to be
a supplier to them so they can do their supply
chain management properly
It's sort of creeped its way into
the personal lives of many
of us. A lot of us have ID cards
to get into buildings
If you have a Dutch or German
passport, you definitely have an RFID
tag in your passport
and essentially
what it does is it allows
entities like corporations
and governments and franchises
to
track and
uniquely identify these
tags as they're used throughout their systems
So for example, when you're coming into the San Francisco
airport with a U.S. passport
or a Dutch or German passport
you scan it
remotely. You do not touch the
San Francisco passport reader
and you actually
transmit information about your
person to these readers
An interesting attack on
this that was shown at Black Hat
over the summer was by
a group called Felixus that
brought a U.S. passport
by a reader that they built themselves
and they were able to pseudo-detonate
an IED based on
this
information which is in the passport
It's quite a frightening
situation where you have
a unique identifier on yourself
all the time read by
unknown entities to you
and we put our
products together in the hopes of
allowing people to choose when they're
exposing themselves to these kinds
of identifications
Do you have any RFID things on you right
now? Is it something we can
some of us might have without realizing it?
Yeah, absolutely. Like I go to
went to university here
in the city
and I have an RFID card on my
person right now and basically I walked
into the school, swiped it
six or eight inches away from the
reader and I was beeped
in. So a little green light came on that said
it hit a database and said yes, this person
has paid his fees. The door is
allowed to open for him. I have one
for a corporation I work for
These RFID cards are actually
going to be implemented in
the MTA and the New Jersey
transit system. I was playing with one before
actually. Some of the stops along
the number 6 line, Lexington Avenue
line, have little RFID entry
points where you can use
a Citibank credit card that has an
RFID tag. Now I happen to have a different kind
of credit card that has an RFID tag. It was
able to recognize that and put a nice big red X
on the turnstile saying no
you can't enter. But
to be honest, I don't see
the advantage. Maybe it just hasn't
been developed enough. But
swiping, holding your credit
card over the turnstile, you
don't get a transfer for one thing. That's my
pet peeve. But do you think that's how
most people will be getting into mass transit
systems by touching their card
to the turnstile? That is the
hopes by the transit system directors
where you're able to
not have to pay
to have your users of the transit system
have cards. It's cards that they own and
corporations who do the banking own.
That's a cost savings for them. And also
they perceive
it as easier for individuals to
have a common payment item
on them. And that's
sort of the motivation behind it. So it seems like
this is something that's
geared for our convenience.
We can get into things quicker, get into buildings.
You say you walk up to a building. I think lots of times
you don't even have to take it out of your pocket, right?
It somehow reads it no matter where it is
on your person. Door opens for you.
No flashing of ID.
No having to fumble for keys.
What could the possible bad thing about this
be? So my
basic idea here is I ride the subway
all the time. I was
part of several projects at my university
dealing with RF security.
And I realized that
I could definitely build a reader that would
scan, copy the tags
that are on the people that I'm with in the subway
and then follow them to work and walk in
right behind them. Jonathan
Wethedis, who is at Hope, demonstrated
that this is a very simple thing to do
even with the tags that people embed
in their own skin.
There was a Wired article on that.
Wow.
So what
this wallet that I'm looking at, I guess
our listeners can't see it, but it's right there.
Oh, there it is.
It's a microphone.
It sounds great.
Maybe we can whack it.
I put some
there's money in here.
I put my RFID
enabled badge or
my credit card or whatever in here and
what happens? So what essentially
happens is that there is a layer
of RF shielding. You can actually
see it. It reflects in light.
There's a meshing in there.
What it does is when the wallet is closed
it creates an effective Faraday cage
around all the RF devices that block
the frequencies used by
RFID, the ISO frequencies
and most
frequencies that any normal RFID
reader will use and some scary ones.
We've done testing. We've
had a function generator.
So you're on the subway with this
cloner that you're going to make
and I have this wallet. You won't be able to get my card.
Absolutely not.
It's not going to happen.
What's the egregious example of privacy
invasion that you've heard of so far
in the RFID world?
Egregious example of privacy invasion
so far is
tracking of folks in
a store based on
an item that they pick up. This was the Gillette
example. This sort of spawned
a few books
by a woman from Harvard
and there was a later
privacy summit on RFID at MIT.
So what did they do in the store?
They picked up a Gillette
razor refill and
you were able to
at the front of the store, it shows a
monitor of where the person is in the store
and if you're seeing people
leave the store, you see a little circle leave the store.
Oh my God! So you're able to
literally track people with this.
There's a screenshot online
of the monitor interface
if you search for Gillette
RFID and security
What was their motivation
for this? Was it theft or was it
to see if people went
to the shaving cream aisle next
or...
So the
funny thing is the most often stolen item
retail is razor refills.
Really? Yes.
And this is the motivation
behind Gillette. They wanted to stop this.
Another egregious example
just from retail is
people will pick up an item and there's a
camera in the area and it takes a picture and you
visualize who's doing it and you can approach them
later in the store. We talked a few weeks ago
about smarter technology to combat
shoplifting. Correct. If you do
certain things and all of a sudden a computer
will say this is suspicious. If you take a lot of
things off a shelf at once or
stand in a particular place
RFID technology is definitely a tool
in that monitoring.
What we have here, we have
RFID wallets
RFID, I guess, prevention wallets
is probably a better term for them
We're offering here at the radio station as well
if you call up now, 212-209-2950
for a different $75 pledge
you'll get one of those in addition to the
off-the-hook t-shirt
and I'm not sure, I haven't heard from Tally in a while
I think they're kind of shell-shocked down there
from all the calls that just came in
but if there are any more cable modem books
down there, you can also call for those
212-209-2950
and again, we're just offering this between
the hours of 7 and 8 o'clock tonight
so if you're thinking of doing this later tonight
probably not a good idea, I doubt they'll be there
212-209-2950
show your support for WBAI
for off-the-hook, for freedom of speech
for developing technology, ways of combating
privacy invasions, all sorts of things
like that. Many reasons to call
only one number you have to call
212-209-2950
So if I want the wallet and the book
I can pledge $150?
If you can handle addition like that, yeah
you can do both
I guess you'll get two t-shirts
I imagine you would if you did that
You know, I might have to go down the hall
and see if there's another book. Do you want me to do that?
Would you go down the hall and just make sure
they're okay down there? Because we haven't heard a peep
from them since all those calls came in
and who knows, they might be unconscious on the floor
212-209-2950
our lines are open right now
so you won't have any trouble reaching people
assuming that they are still there and didn't run out in panic
and again, we are offering
thanks to Mike Aiello from
Differware, the RFID
wallets that
can you give us an example of people who have used
these wallets and have benefited from
their use? Great, one of the
great examples that folks tell us about
is that sometimes
the RFID readers at their job
if they have multiple
cards, it'll just not work and they have to
take one card out or whatever
we have a slot on the side of the wallet
that separates a card
if you want it to be separated
and it's easier to get access to
so that's one good thing there
folks are
totally assured that they're not going to have their privacy
invaded while riding the
subway or walking down the street
that's another good example of why people are
Does that happen a lot? On the subway
walking down the street, people are scanning
looking for your RFID tags
of various sorts?
So, as an example at Hope, Jonathan
went out, purchased something from a vendor
and was able to read the unique identifier
off of
a card embedded in someone's skin and has shown
it's possible all over the place
Wow
It is going to happen, it does happen
there have been readers built into floor
tiles, there have been readers built into
pretty much any kind of device
to sort of make it look like the environment
so people don't realize that they're being read
It's kind of like EasyPass
we use this for cars going through toll booths
but now people have these devices on them
and there are little readers in various places
so yeah, you better be careful
because apparently this technology
is being used to
violate your privacy all over the place
Jim? So if I'm
a criminal, I could make myself
conceivably an RFID reader
and I could pass by somebody and thereby I
could get access to his
bank accounts, his
credit cards, his
employee ID and I could probably
as this continues
along, figure out where he works
which means I could get access to his
place of employment, this is a giant security
risk. Absolutely, that's
why we came up with our product. The more
interesting attack on that
is if you sit in one place
and you keep track of who passes
by you, you may not even
be able to
get their credit card number but if you just get
a unique identifier, you're able to
understand when that person
hits that point and if you can track that across
multiple read locations, you're able to
track a person based on any RFID
that they have online. So it's an incredible
security risk and you're saying
that those little cards
that we use to get into our office buildings
you can read those and
are you saying that you can duplicate them?
Is it possible to duplicate them as well? Absolutely
There have been several demonstrations of
this and
RFID vendors have claimed
that they're enabling encryption
and things of that measure but there's a fundamental
limitation on the number of computations you can
embed in a cheap card.
The more encryption you have, the more expensive the card is
and the driver right now is to send it down
It's been shown that
most vendors leave
the password on even
the encrypted cards the same as in the user
manual. Oh boy. So there was a tool
shown at- We always go back to that, don't we?
Absolutely. People not changing passwords.
It's always the same thing.
So just to jump on the terror bandwagon here
if I was a member of Al-Qaeda
and I was just sitting downstairs at Wall Street
I could literally scan people
walking past me who have RFID
cards and get
enough information where if I was
technically adept enough I could duplicate those cards
and just sail right through the office buildings
that they're supposedly only
allowed to go into. Is that correct?
Without a question. Now if they had an RFID
wallet like we're offering here tonight
that would not be possible. If you keep your card in the
RFID wallet, it's protected from this
kind of thing. Yes. 212
209 2950. We only have
two calls on the line. I think we should
have many times that amount. 212
209 2950. A pledge of
$75 will yield you an
RFID wallet that you can protect your company
yourself and
your peace of mind just by calling us.
212 209 2950. Again you also
get the off-the-hook t-shirt with
that and if there are any left for a
$75 pledge you can
instead get the Hacking the Cable Modem
book along with the
off-the-hook t-shirt. $25 pledge.
Just the t-shirt. 212 209
2950.
I'm sorry, this meshes very
well, no pun intended,
with something we were discussing the other
week which is whether or not it's legal to modify
passports.
And so with products like this it doesn't
matter anymore. You can just stick
them in there and be sure that nobody can read them.
But I actually have a question. I've noticed your
wallets are made of leather
and I'm vegan and so
I'm wondering if you have any plans on making
a wallet that would be compatible
with that? Six calls on the line.
Apparently leather isn't bothering them but
212 209 2950. I'll keep those calls
coming in and yes, the leather question.
Yes, the leather question. So
as you can probably tell we're a small
company to begin with, hoping to grow a lot.
We're expanding our product line.
We just recently added different colors to our leathers
and as the demand we have
had several questions for non
leather products
we will be introducing a vinyl
RFID blocking product.
Six calls on the line. 212 209
2950. Call now. $75
pledge gets you an RFID wallet.
Bernie, I believe you had a point.
I just wanted to mention that I met
Mike at the HOPE conference this past
July and it was great to meet you
Mike. Thanks Bernie. You really have an amazing
product. I was looking at how well
made these wallets are.
The fineness of the mesh
that provides the
Verity cage for shielding your RFID
and it's a
really nice wallet. I mean you were kind enough to give
some of them away as door prizes for the HOPE conference
and I gotta say
a couple of women attendees
won these as door prizes
and they were ecstatic. They were thrilled. These are
really nice wallets in their own right
but they have sort of this
stealth feature that they protect
your privacy by shielding your
RFID card. So it's really
sort of a
cool secret you don't have to tell people about
but you can whip this thing out and say
look this wallet has some amazing
technology. It protects my privacy
and it's a very nice wallet
on top of that.
You can be ecstatic and thrilled if you just
make a phone call and you'll be supporting
the radio station. You'll be getting a really cool
device, an RFID wallet
and an off the hook t-shirt.
212-209-2950
This is an excellent gift for
our conservative listeners and members
of the armed forces. It's already been
demonstrated that Al-Qaeda
who always seems to think ahead
could theoretically use
this to attack Americans.
So rather than
wait for that to happen and lock
the barn door afterwards, be ahead of
the curve. Get this wallet.
They won't be able to read you as an American off your passport.
They won't be able to sneak into
your office building and plant the bomb.
I can't believe we're using these scare
tactics to reach out to people but I gotta say
it's working because we have nine calls on
the line.
It almost makes you scream, doesn't it?
Well I guess so. 212-209-2950
That's our
phone number and again
we want to thank Mike Ayala for coming in and
donating these to the radio station
because it's
just incentive for calling up
and helping keep the radio station on the air.
Really the main reason for you to call
should be to keep the show on
to keep the radio station going.
We're offering these things and we have people
coming in being generous with the things
that they're making as an
incentive so that you guys will
have even less of a problem
dialing those numbers. We gotta get out of here.
Our time is up. We're gonna be back again next week
with even more special things but again
you have three minutes to call.
212-209-2950
I see we have something like
nine, ten calls on
the line so hopefully
people are taking advantage of this
terrific offer. Mike, I want to thank you
so much for coming by and best of luck.
Anything else you guys are working on?
We have a few products coming up.
Check the website.
I really hope you guys
call in and pledge. Definitely
call in and pledge. Don't go to our website and do it.
We're here to help out 2600
and off the hook. Thanks.
Thanks so much again for coming in and doing this.
Again, 212-209-2950
is our telephone number.
We will be offering these items
for just a few minutes more.
Join the 50 or so people
on the phone line now.
You can still get the cable modem book, I believe.
Is that true, Lynn?
You're filling out
the pledge form as we speak.
You might have to compete with us to get these items.
212-209-2950
Make those phone calls now.
See you next week. Good night.
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Hey Cat, hey, hey, how you doing out there in WBAI land?
Hey Cat, hey, hey, how you doing out there in WBAI land?
Hey Cat, hey, hey, how you doing out there in WBAI land?
Hey Cat, hey, hey, how you doing out there in WBAI land?
Hey Cat, hey, hey, how you doing out there in WBAI land?
Hey Cat, hey, hey, how you doing out there in WBAI land?