Hey, Wake Up Call listeners.
The entire Wake Up Call crew would like to invite you to our second Best Seller Bookstore
Forum going down Wednesday, October 18th at 7 p.m. at the Best Seller Bookstore in Hempstead,
Long Island.
Come and spend the evening with Deepa Fernandez, Errol Maitland, our Long Island correspondent
Jim Crevo, Kat Aaron, and Mitch Jesserich.
Mario Murillo from the Friday edition of Wake Up Call will be there too.
Light refreshments will be served.
Best Seller Bookstore is located at 43 Main Street, a block away from the Long Island
Railroad Station.
For more information, call 516-564-1180.
Again, that's 516-564-1180.
Hope to see you there!
Yeah, and you better move it, because that's starting right now in Hempstead, so if you're
on the island, head on down there.
But you know what?
If you can't make it there, at least you're in a good place, because Off the Hook is about
to start here on WBAI New York.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Von Diddley Bond for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Von Diddley Bond!
I hope that's understood.
And a very good evening to everybody.
The program is Off the Hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
Yes, it's a big surprise.
We didn't think we were going to be on this week, and we are.
How about that?
Mike, are you as shocked as I am?
Maybe even more.
Yeah, I'm pretty shocked.
I think shocked is the word.
So we have a bit of a skeleton crew, because we actually got word at the last minute that
we were going to be on this week, after all.
And we are still in the middle of a fundraiser, and we only have a few of our premiums left.
So we're going to have to go through all kinds of other premiums in addition.
That's just the way it is.
But it's good that we're on.
We have a lot of material to cover.
Mike, welcome to the show.
Why, thank you.
And Nat, Kevin, you're here as well.
Hello.
Hello.
And Dave joins us.
Dave, how are you?
I'm doing good, thanks.
Dave is the co-founder of 2600, by the way.
It's a little-known fact.
You go way back to the early days.
Even before then, I think.
That's right.
There was a period before 2600.
Wow.
All the memories.
Maybe there will be opportunities to call in later and ask us questions about those early days,
if we have the time for that.
And Bernie, of course, joins us now from Philadelphia.
Yes, I'm considering changing my name to Horstachio instead of Bernie S.
Why would you do that?
Well, it's my favorite character on the new Microsoft Saturday morning cartoon.
Okay, well, I guess we're just going to jump into that with both feet running then.
What in God's name are you talking about?
You haven't heard of Viva Piñata?
Obviously not.
It's a world where colorful piñatas compete to be chosen for children's birthday parties.
But in effect, it's really a Microsoft ad in the guise of a full-length TV cartoon on Saturday morning
to sell kids on the Xbox 360 video game.
And this airs where exactly?
Various TV networks.
I don't know which networks it's airing on yet,
but Microsoft is putting a lot of money behind this cartoon, which is called Viva Piñata.
Now, I don't understand.
The piñatas want to be chosen, which seems strange to me,
because then they get beat with baseball bats and they fall apart.
They're basically no longer piñatas.
What else would they want?
They want to stay up there on a tree forever?
Both.
I would assume they have some self-preservation instinct.
I guess not.
It sounds like a really violent show.
The characters can either hang from a tree or be bludgeoned until their guts fall out.
Generally both.
Yeah.
Okay, so this is something that just happened, or is this a show that's been on for a while?
No, this is a fairly new project behind Microsoft.
Fox Television, of all places, will be airing this.
So it's going to be on Fox?
It's going to be on Fox.
Okay.
That makes a degree of sense then.
Gosh.
From now on, for this show, you shall call me Horstachio.
I'm not going to do that, Bernie.
You can call yourself that if you wish, but I'm going to continue referring to you by your given name of Bernie S.
But I do have this bit of news, which I guess might actually match your bit of news.
It turns out McGruff, the crime dog, is going digital.
This is exciting news.
The 26-year-old mascot, I bet you didn't know he was that old.
26 years old.
He is the centerpiece.
It is a he, isn't it?
I think so.
McGruff.
He's got a deep voice.
I think it's a he.
The 26-year-old mascot is the centerpiece of the National Crime Prevention Council's new campaign to take a bite out of cybercrime.
The website is called bytecrime.org.
That's B-Y-T-E, crime.org.
Formerly launched last Wednesday, it offers a free 36-page online brochure with tips.
The message remains the same.
Do your part to prevent crime before it occurs.
You start with lights, locks, and alarms to protect your home.
Now the equivalent is security to keep the bad guys out in cyberspace.
Now on this site, McGruff challenges people to immunize their computers by installing antivirus, firewall, and other software.
And it continues to encourage people to turn in any offenders, including your parents, if you think that they might be engaged in illegal software downloading of any sort.
Well, then.
Well, I'm sort of expanding on it a little bit, but come on.
I mean, that's really what they're getting at.
They want people to be on the lookout and turn people in.
Yes, Bernie?
I don't think McGruff – well, first of all, is 26 years human years or dog years?
Oh, you know, I don't know.
It doesn't specify.
And has he had his rabies shot?
Because it sounds like he's suffering from some kind of delusional rabies thing.
If people can't even install antivirus software, what makes them say they're going to read 36 pages?
I don't know.
Maybe it just keeps them out of trouble while they're reading that.
Anyway, the brochure covers a variety of dangers online, from malware to sexual predators, and the tools and techniques available for protection.
It also addresses special situations, such as surfing the web from public terminals at cybercafes or telecommuting into office networks.
And I'll bet there's a section on there about hackers, too, if you look for it.
We'll just have to try that and see.
I haven't had the patience to go through it myself.
Do they really make the stupid pun with byte?
Do you think they wouldn't?
You know.
Absolutely.
Okay.
We actually have a special announcement to make.
And this concerns the rescheduling of the Steve Rambam privacy panel that was canceled at the HOPE conference due to his arrest right before it.
We're pretty much 90% sure it's going to be at this time and location.
So we're going to announce it, and we're going to verify it on the website in the coming days.
But basically what it looks like right now is Thursday, November 16th, from 6 to 9 p.m. at the Stevens Institute of Technology, which is in Hoboken.
And it's in the Babbio Center, room 122.
Now, yes, I know people are panicking out there saying, Hoboken?
That's in New Jersey.
Yes, that's true, but it's also very easy to get to because it's one stop away from, I believe, Penn Station on the PATH train.
Is that where you go to Hoboken, or is it the other one?
Might be the other one.
The other one down at World Trade Center?
Okay, whatever.
It's very easy to get to.
You can tell that we're seasoned New Jersey travelers here.
We're going to know this, though, by that time.
And there's rumors, in fact, that Steve will be here tonight.
So even those of us who don't know where Hoboken is are planning to go.
Oh, look, Steve's here.
Steve's at the door.
Come on in.
Oh, my God.
Wow.
How about that for timing?
We were just discussing this.
Look at who I brought.
Oh, and you brought your victim.
Okay, you're both here.
This is great.
Let's see.
Can we make room for them over on that side of the studio?
Maybe we'll yank this guy up by the scruff of his neck.
Yank him up.
Yeah, well, just get a seat, and you can share a microphone.
While they're getting together to talk about the upcoming panel, again, let's remind people that it's very likely to be, 95% sure,
it's going to be Thursday, November 16th, that evening at the Stevens Institute of Technology.
Plenty of time to make your arrangements to get out of work early or to travel up here or do whatever you have to do.
And remember, admission is 100% free.
It's sort of our making it up to the people who weren't able to see this panel at Hope.
Even though there was a panel at Hope, and it was a pretty good one to make up for it, people really wanted to see Steve.
In fact, I understand this event is being subsidized by the FBI.
Is it an apology?
Well, the FBI made it possible, didn't they, by taking you away?
Yes.
And so we had to scramble to find another place.
And, yeah, you know, I think a good showing here, people actually coming and seeing the panel and learning a lot from it is a good response to what they did to you.
That, yeah, you can try and silence people, but it's not going to work because we're going to come back, and we're going to be even louder and more obnoxious, right?
And, well, in my case, that's not a big problem.
Right.
Everyone should know, one serious comment, anyone who's concerned about any government interference in the event, first of all, the reason that they came and grabbed me out of the Hope Convention had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the talk.
They were rather miffed that I exposed one of their informants as essentially an ex-mental patient, which he was.
I mean, they literally took him to a mental institution in a straight jacket, and after his release, he became a government informant.
It's not the hardest thing in the world to expose these guys, is it?
No, it was very hard.
Was it really?
The guy used the name Joseph.
He has an actual driver's license and social security card and what have you as Joseph von Habsburg-Lothringen.
His real name is Joseph Myers.
Well, that's easier to spell, anyway.
Well, right.
But he runs around telling people he's a member of the Austrian royal family and speaking in a faux German accent.
Is there an Austrian royal family?
Yes, there is.
Okay, I didn't know.
All right, I didn't know that.
First of all, let me just repeatedly say that every single charge against me was dropped.
It was dropped before indictment.
Wait, you're not even facing any court?
Not anymore.
Really? Okay, that's big news.
God bless.
It's all finished then.
God bless.
Well, you know, I'm thinking of applying to the Guinness Book of World Records as most times arrested without indictment within a 30-day period.
But yeah, they've pretty well shot their wad.
First they tried charging me for witness tampering until they found out it was our witness.
So they dropped that.
Then they decided to charge me for impersonating an FBI agent.
And as soon as the prosecutor's office found out the only witness against me was a Vietnamese speaker who didn't speak English and probably doesn't even understand the words FBI.
They said, just go away.
Try not to piss off the FBI within the next month or two.
These were questions that we were raising mere days after your arrest.
Could they not have seen this themselves before they went through all this?
There's an individual by the name of Albert Santoro that I was working on his defense team.
And his trial was coming up.
And every day we were gathering more and more and more just critically valuable defense information.
And by the way, the Washington Post is writing a story on this.
And so is a phenomenal freelance writer by the name of Stephen Kotler.
This is going to be actually a fairly massive story.
Because what you should know is the primary concern of the government is not Steve Rombaum screwing up a $100,000 bogus money laundering case.
It's that this informant was involved in Operation Uptick and Operation Rolling Stone and Operation Wooden Nickel.
And I don't know how many of the people in those massive FBI stings, each involving hundreds and hundreds of arrests.
I don't know how many of those he was instrumental in.
But I can tell you based on what they did in the Santoro case, they didn't turn that stuff over.
So I'm guessing that the big concern on the part of the FBI is there's going to be 2, 3, 4, 500 people coming in and saying,
you know, you were supposed to give us this as part of discovery.
We have a right to know that the guy that made this all happen is an ex-mental patient with 15 felony arrests using a phony name.
You didn't tell us that. We want a new trial.
Now imagine 500 new trial requests.
My goodness.
So they're peeved at me.
And you know what?
The sad thing is, you know, you know me for years, so you know this is true.
Your listeners may not know me as well.
The sad thing is, although this is definitely no longer true, if the FBI had come to me and said,
Steve, look, you know, we're not pals, but this is something that's genuinely important to the country.
This guy is, I don't know, doing a sting against Osama bin Laden.
I mean, some legitimate reason.
You know, talk to your client, talk to the attorneys, talk to Santoro.
Just lay off for 60 days.
I would have been enough of a moron to do it because I'm considerably more right wing and conservative than the average listener to this radio program.
Now they can kiss my skinny Jewish behind, basically.
This is how relationships are forged, I guess.
Yes, exactly.
Wow.
You know, I got to say, their timing, busting you at the conference.
Well, that was not an accident.
I mean, let's be very clear about that.
They wanted to create as much mischief, as much damage to my professional life as they possibly could.
It wasn't, I don't know how many of your listeners know this, it wasn't only the Hope Convention,
but I was in the middle of a private label seminar, which you were co-sponsoring, for investigators and law enforcement.
When the guy came up to me and he said, I'm so-and-so, I'm with the FBI, I thought he was another registrant.
He was like, okay, great, have a seat.
No, no, you're coming with us.
I was like, okay, well, then I guess I'll be moving the seminar downtown.
But they waited for the seminar to finish before they visited you.
No, they waited until the talk was done.
Everybody was out in the hall, so I was alone in the room with only a couple of people.
I was packing up my laptops, heading to the large seminar room to do the privacy is dead thing, and then they swarmed in in raid jackets.
Unbelievable.
And the people at the conference, despite what was reported over and over again in the papers,
it did not happen before the stunned attendees of the Hope Conference, because we didn't even know it happened.
It happened, as you say, in a quiet hallway.
Well, you were ultimately pretty stunned.
We were stunned, but we didn't witness it.
We didn't witness it happening.
We just found out about it, and then we were stunned.
I think they probably didn't want to try to do it in front of 1,100 potentially pissed off attendees.
So I think that, look, you know what?
I will say this.
What the FBI did is really secret police-ish, but they are the politest goons on the planet.
Everybody makes a joke that FBI stands for friendly but incompetent.
And you know what?
Honest to God, I can attest that's true.
They were incredibly professional, incredibly polite.
But incompetent?
Well, I think the arrest speaks for itself.
I mean, there are 50 ways that they could have accomplished whatever it was they wanted to accomplish with no fuss, no must.
The end result is going to be ‑‑ I mean, let's imagine that they're nuts.
Well, let's not imagine, but let's imagine that they really lose it.
They go further out of control than they have already.
And they turn around and they recharge me with something again.
Well, they say, you know what?
We changed our mind.
We are going to put you on trial for this.
Can they do that?
Yes, they can.
Yes, they can.
They were clever enough to dismiss the charges without prejudice.
Without prejudice means up until the statute of limitations, they can refile it.
You know, three years from now, I can tick them off and they can charge me for this crime to basically bench me.
It's an amazing thing.
I mean, it's so un‑American that it's beyond description.
But what they want to do is they want to keep me on the hook that I will be afraid to work on the Santoro case.
And you know what?
They've succeeded in that.
I cannot work on this case.
I can't work on this case without jeopardizing the defense investigation.
I can't work on this case without jeopardizing my freedom.
So has anything good come out of this for you?
Well, ultimately, I'm going to sue them for a honking big amount of money.
But, I mean, I won't see that money until I'm in, you know, the old detective's home.
Well, then you can use it.
Right.
Buy snacks from the vending machine.
Extra sponge baths.
Bernie, you've had some dealings with feds over the years.
Does this sound like their kind of way of modus operandi?
Yeah, the agency I was involved with was the United States Secret Service.
And I've got to admit, they were fairly polite too, although the lead investigative agent, Thomas L. Varney,
did scream epithets at me when I refused to tell him what he wanted to hear.
He wanted you to confess to a crime that you didn't actually commit.
Right.
He wanted me to commit to say that I'd accessed the telecommunications system without authorization.
And I flat out said no, which is true.
And he just jumped up and said,
I'm an asshole!
You know, I hope that was obfuscated enough on that.
Yeah, well, the thing is, you can push their buttons in certain ways by not playing the game they want you to play, I suppose.
And then you see how professional they really are.
Secret Service are actually, as a rule, pretty darn good guys.
I've worked with them and I've done undercover stuff with some of their agents.
They are just light years ahead of the FBI in terms of decency and professionalism.
Well, I think Bernie might disagree since they managed to lock him away for a while.
Sorry, Bernie.
No, no, you don't have to apologize.
They are truly an elite group.
There's only about 2,000 Secret Service agents.
And they are the cream of the crop.
The problem is, look at the crop.
Good point, good point.
And in my case, I had pissed them off as well.
I mean, any law enforcement agency would probably be annoyed if surveillance photos of their undercover agents were made public by an individual.
And the prosecutor in my case made it really clear that that was what my case was really about.
You know that, right, Steve?
Basically, this happened because Bernie had pictures of Secret Service agents that came to somebody's place of business.
He had a surveillance camera and filmed the people on his property.
What did they charge him with?
Well, basically, he brought this to a 2600 meeting.
And for some reason, Fox News decided to come to that meeting where Bernie had these pieces of paper up on a wall, including one of the Secret Service agents picking his nose.
That made it on to Fox 29 down there in Philadelphia.
And apparently, that's what really pissed them off so much that they went after Bernie.
And they wanted to deny they picked their nose?
I'm not sure what the crime was.
I think they were just embarrassed or they didn't want their covers blown.
What do you think it was, Bernie?
What did you get convicted of?
Possession of hardware or software for the modification of telecommunications instruments for the unauthorized access to telecommunications services.
So that's like everybody who has a terminal program can be arrested.
Exactly! You got it!
Well, it took Steve about one second to figure that out.
It didn't take the federal government.
The thing is, the statute, it was a brand new statute.
I was the first person charged with this new federal statute.
It was enacted just a few weeks before I was charged with violating it.
And it should be pointed out that you didn't even make a phone call or anything to defraud anybody.
They just said that you had the capability of doing this.
They even admitted that there were no victims in this quote-unquote crime.
I made tools available to other people, and what people did with those tools was morally and legally up to them.
Bernie was a teacher, and that's a crime.
Well, let's understand something, Bernie.
You knowingly poked the bear.
Oh, I did!
That's for sure.
I, on the other hand, have been an investigator for 25 years,
and the people who came and arrested me are essentially my professional colleagues.
It was kind of humiliating.
Do you think this is something that couldn't have happened, say, 10 years ago?
Or is this just the way they always operate?
Oh, let me tell you what's crystal clear.
Look, you know, again, I mean, I'm a pretty conservative guy.
I'm usually on the prosecution side of things.
And what you have to understand is how everything's changed since 9-11.
You know, especially in the Southern District of New York, especially in New York City,
you've got a situation where around 2001, 2002, everything got loosened if not thrown out the door.
The FBI was allowed to do pretty much everything it wanted to, and in a lot of cases for good reasons.
It wasn't time to monkey around with being overly, overly critical.
This was not the time for America to bring in the ACLU.
It was the time to bring in the FBI.
So when people started yelling and screaming around late 2002, early 2003,
oh, the, you know, Guantanamo rights being abused,
al-Qaeda being taken prisoner, not being treated nicely,
I've got to tell you, my response was, good, do more of it.
Then sort of towards the end of 2003, beginning of 2004,
that same, you know, don't worry about warrants, do whatever kind of monkey business you want,
bend if not break the Bill of Rights and the Constitution,
that sort of thing, which I've got no problem, frankly, still,
with it being applied to people who want to kill 3,000 New Yorkers in one fell swoop,
that sort of stuff, the FBI, you know, it's just insidious.
It makes your job as a law enforcement officer so much easier,
so much less crap to worry about, although ultimately it's not crap,
it's the Bill of Rights, but so much less crap to worry about.
It seeped in, it went, it started to infect all the drug cases.
So all the stuff that happened, you know, with all the Carlos Ochoas and people like that,
you know, all of a sudden people were snatched up without warrants
and flown into the U.S. without extradition and wiretap information, you know,
suddenly became available where they couldn't find an underlying warrant and things like that.
And it went from the national, genuine national security cases,
around 2004 it went to the drug cases.
And when I started hearing about that as a detective, as an investigator,
because I live in New York and I've seen what drugs have done to my neighborhood and my friends,
it's like, good.
Well, then it started going from there around 2004, middle of 2004, end of 2004, into mob cases.
And there's a lot of mob cases happening in this area.
You've got the five families, you've got all the guys coming in from Jersey and the Florida guys,
and I mean this is mob.
Don't forget Long Island.
Oh, come on, we're represented, aren't we?
Yeah.
It's where they go home to go to sleep.
So anyway, you know, it started getting into the mob cases.
And there, I mean, I know a lot of these mob guys, not to have dinner with them,
you know, I don't want to get shot during dinner.
Yeah, but the food is good.
The food is very good.
Go to Rao's and places like that.
Anyway, Rao's, sorry.
But, you know, then it started concerning me.
Now, if you are doing anything that annoys the FBI in the Southern District of New York,
there are no rules.
There are no holds barred.
There's nothing that they don't feel comfortable doing.
And that's a big problem.
I mean, ultimately, bit by bit by bit by bit,
there's been a creep of what they, for good reason,
were allowed to get away with in the Al Qaeda cases and the terrorist funding cases
and the national security cases.
Now they've gotten so used to it and, frankly, so lazy.
I mean, you know, you don't have to worry about warrants.
You don't have to convince judges.
You don't have to worry about, you know, these niggling little details like probable cause.
You can just go and do your thing.
But can you honestly say you're surprised that it went this way?
I'm astounded.
You didn't see this as a slippery slope when they started to bypass the rules?
Look, you know what?
I work with these guys.
I go out to dinner with these guys.
I know how they think.
I talk to them.
I've done a lot of work with a lot of federal agencies.
And I've got to tell you something.
The vast, vast, vast majority of these guys are not okay guys.
They're great guys.
These are people who don't see their wives.
They don't see their kids.
They put themselves in harm's way.
They're doing stuff you don't even know about.
And I'm not making excuses for them.
But the FBI is a whole different story.
I mean, what I found out after I got arrested, I want to tell you, all kidding aside,
not just you calling me up, thank you very much,
which I'm incredibly touched by, to tell you the truth,
asking me if I needed any help,
not just people who were at the seminar and people I knew in my personal life.
Hundreds and hundreds, no exaggeration, of investigators, cops, law enforcement agents.
You know, I got a tip from a federal agent in California,
and on the basis of that tip, I was able to find out that one of the witnesses against me
was arrested for pointing a gun at a 12-year-old kid,
shooting a gun into the air, beating his daughter with a bucket,
being arrested for all sorts of stuff.
That's W1, witness 1 against me.
And that's a tip from a federal agent.
I mean, you have to understand that it's not just me being shocked and outraged,
it's everybody.
And by the way, I can tell you, I can't give you the details,
but I will be able to on the 16th because it's going to be ongoing at that point.
There's going to be a congressional inquiry about this.
There's a guy who's a former assistant special agent in charge of the FBI
who's now a congressional aide who took this to his boss
and his boss says, we're holding hearings.
So this is going to be a very big deal.
Yeah, it really is, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it all turns out.
We're speaking with Steve Rambam, who basically was prevented from giving a talk
at our HOPE conference.
It wasn't maybe their intention, but it was their result.
It was a bonus.
Yeah, it was a bonus.
We're having a make-up session, which we believe is going to be held,
what was it, November 16th?
Let me get the details one more time.
Thursday, November 16th from 6 to 9 p.m.,
Stevens Institute of Technology, Hoboken, New Jersey.
And we'll have all the details up on www.2600.com.
It's easy to get to from New York City, no need to panic.
And, of course, we'll be talking about that in the weeks ahead.
We have to break, though, for a moment to encourage people to call us.
This is a fundraising edition of the show.
We were on the last two weeks.
We raised a lot of money.
We want to thank everybody for calling in during those weeks.
As a result, many of the premiums that we were offering,
we no longer have because we went through them all.
But we do have some things still left.
We have a few copies of the book, Geek Mafia,
which, in fact, the author of Geek Mafia is sitting right in front of me.
Rick Dakin is here.
Hello.
How are you doing?
I'm doing well.
Thanks for coming all the way up just to promote this book
for a few minutes on the radio.
No problem.
My pleasure.
From Florida.
So you were on, actually, was it last week or a week before that?
Last week.
Last week talking about the book.
For those people that might not know, first of all, the number is 212-209-2950.
If you just want to call and donate.
Tell us something about the book, Geek Mafia.
So Geek Mafia, it's a novel, obviously.
It's a thriller about a video game designer in Silicon Valley
who gets fired from his job and hooks up with this sort of sexy con woman
and her crew of hackers who help him take revenge on his former employers
and in the process suck him down into their whole underground world of excitement and adventure.
So vaguely autobiographical, mostly fictional.
A lot of fun.
And so, yeah, I think we definitely should still have some of those to give away as premiums
if you want to call in and donate.
How much?
For a pledge of $50, you'll get not only a copy of Rick's book,
but you'll also get an off-the-hook T-shirt,
which tells everybody around you that you listen to this radio station
and particularly this radio show.
So, again, the phone number is 212-209-2950.
We also have a very limited number of RFID wallets left.
I think we only have three of those left for a pledge of $75.
Who here is qualified to describe the...
Oh, you have one with you.
I do, in fact.
Why don't you describe the RFID wallet?
You've got one as well.
Kevin has one as well.
So they come in several colors.
I have sort of burgundy.
It's very nice.
It's a leather wallet.
It looks nice.
It's held up well since I bought it a few months ago.
It's been to Europe and back.
But what does it do for you?
What it does is it has in...
You can barely feel it, but you can if you...
It's got a wire mesh woven through it,
so it shields any smart cards, RFID cards,
maybe even cards you don't realize have RFIDs in them in your wallet
so they can't be read by an RFID reader from the outside.
So it's a cool little stylish way to protect some degree of privacy in this world
where there's less and less.
I see.
There's two calls on the line.
If both of those people are calling for the RFID wallet,
only one more person could call in and get one.
Or maybe those people are calling in to get a copy of Rick's book.
You can probably get both.
Sure.
212-209-2950.
There's all sorts of special deals.
Right, Mike?
I imagine.
Under $25, you'll get both.
Yeah, it's a simple addition.
And two T-shirts.
And if you just want the T-shirt, $25 will get you that.
And those T-shirts are pretty cool.
All sorts of people stop you in the street.
Nice people stop you in the street when they see you wearing an Alphahook T-shirt.
And you can only get them by donating to the radio station.
You can't get them any other way unless you rob it from somebody who's already wearing one,
or if they give it to you maybe.
212-209-2950.
In addition to all that, there's all sorts of other WBAI premiums.
Far too many for us to go through here tonight.
But the person on the other end of the phone will be more than happy to guide you to something that you really like.
The important thing, though, the important thing to remember is that this place needs to be supported
so that we can continue bringing you engaging discussions like this.
All sorts of topics get brought up on a weekly basis here on Alphahook.
Some of it you may agree with.
Some of it you may not agree with.
I know many of our listeners probably would take great exception to some of the things Steve has been saying
over the past few minutes or so.
But you know what?
That's part of it all.
That's part of freedom of expression, of engaging ideas, of arguing for something and knowing why you're arguing for it.
And I think that's what our audience is all about.
212-209-2950.
Getting five calls on the line.
We might even need help down there.
If people need help from Tally Room, scream real loud.
We can hear you.
All sorts of interesting things for you to pledge for.
212-209-2950.
You can't have discussions like this on other radio stations, I don't think.
I mean, I've never heard one.
People are talking about stupid things in other places.
I'll say it.
Yeah, they are.
Stupid personal problems and, you know, the mass media, what they want you to hear.
But here on WBAI, we talk about all sorts of different things.
At least when we talk about our personal problems, they involve, you know, fundamental rights and freedoms, not, you know, rain.
Life is suction.
Yeah, not life is suction.
We don't talk about that.
There's enough of that going on in the commercial world.
212-209-2950.
If the phone keeps ringing, please stay on the line.
Somebody will get to you.
But the important thing is to make that phone call.
Remember, if this radio station were not here, it would be replaced with another radio station playing some kind of commercial music.
And you would never have a chance to call in, voice your opinions, ask questions, gain information.
Many people have learned something from Off the Hook over the years.
And we've been on one way or another since 1988, if you can believe that.
Dave, I know you can believe that, right?
Can you believe how the years have gone by?
Oh, my goodness.
Yeah.
I mean, we started 2600 in 1984.
And look at it now.
It's 2006, 22 years later.
And it's just as relevant as it was when we started.
In fact, when we first started the magazine, right, it was basically three sheets of paper that we Xeroxed late at night.
We're not going to say where, but we used an office we weren't supposed to use to Xerox it and sent it out to about 25 people.
And, you know, we figured we'd be arrested the next day for doing this.
But lo and behold, people actually seemed to want more.
And then that first year went by and people started to renew their subscriptions.
And that's when I realized, wow, this could actually be something cool.
And then 1987 or 88, I believe, we started showing up on newsstands.
And that was really when I realized this was out of control.
The interest in technological issues, in freedom of speech, in sharing information and just sort of helping to build this information age we find ourselves in the middle of, that's something that I don't think is going to go away anytime soon.
And this radio show is something that reaches a lot of people, a lot of non-technical people that just want to see how things can be used to their advantage.
You don't hear just technobabble.
You actually hear how it applies to you in your everyday life.
And it's amazing in this age when newspapers, magazines, radio are going extinct and being glommed up by big mega corporations that something like this keeps going on.
Yeah.
Time Warner keeps calling us wanting to buy the magazine, you know, buy the whole operation.
And we will not take their calls.
Not at the prices they're offering.
I'm sorry.
Is that so?
212-209-2950.
That's not the number to call to take over the magazine.
That's the number to call to pledge.
If you want to take over the magazine, email us, oth2600.com.
But 212-209-2950.
Let's calm down a bit.
There's only one call on the line.
Think about the things that you've learned.
If you've started a discussion with somebody you know because of something you heard on this radio station, I think that's reason enough to call because it's – we're getting into your head.
We're making you think.
We're making you discuss things.
We're making you question.
And that's sort of what this radio station does on a daily basis.
You may not always like what you hear.
You may strongly disagree with it.
You may throw things at your radio.
You may throw your radio, in fact.
But that's a whole lot more than you'll do listening to Top 40 and just becoming brain dead, right?
I think so.
I mean this radio program and this radio station are really unique.
As Emmanuel has said, there's nowhere else in New York City in the middle of the FM dial where you can hear debate, where you can hear informed opinion, and you mostly just hear commercial songs.
Do people even listen to songs on the radio?
They have iPods now.
I don't understand why people would listen to commercial radio anymore because, yeah, the iPods and all sorts of MP3 players out there, they do a better job.
If I can have 40,000 songs randomizing on an MP3 player, why do I need to listen to some idiot uptown playing music who's not even playing the music?
He's basically pushing a button on a computer too.
And I get to hear commercials.
Why would anybody want that?
I guarantee you there's no iPod out there that has discussion like this that you can randomize to.
Some people put us on their iPod.
Okay.
Yes.
Granted, some people record us and then put it up.
But we're still providing it, okay?
That's something that comes from the iPod that you just basically get from a CD or something like that.
It doesn't work quite the same way.
This place exists for generating ideas, for provoking discussions, for getting people angry enough to do something, and for all sorts of mind-stimulating type of things.
That's why you should call 212-209-2950 because that kind of radio is a dying breed across the country.
It really is.
Radio itself is in severe trouble.
But this radio station has no commercials.
You will never hear an advertisement on these airwaves.
The only sponsors of this particular station is 50,000-watt station in the middle of New York City in the middle of the commercial dial.
The only sponsors are you.
And you sponsor us by calling 212-209-2950.
$25 gets you an off-the-hook T-shirt.
$50 gets you a copy of Rick's book, The Geek Mafia.
And $75, if there are any left, will get you an RFID wallet, all in addition to the off-the-hook shirt.
Now, Rick, you're also, through some astounding stroke of events, you're also Steve's quote-unquote victim that will be also at the panel on November 16th.
Do you want to tell us something about that?
Exactly.
Yeah, well, as I mentioned before last week, I had volunteered because I heard Steve on this radio show listening to the tape version from Florida.
Volunteered to be his guinea pig, not really fully realizing what I was getting into.
But I was working on researching his book on hackers, and I thought, well, this would be an interesting way to become more involved.
And I emailed him.
Just that email, which had my phone number and my…
Phone and email.
Phone and my name.
And he knew a heck of a lot about me in a really short amount of time.
He found out things about you that you didn't even know.
He did find out things about me that I didn't know.
We actually found someone using his identity in Alabama.
Yeah, we found somebody.
We actually – sorry about that.
Somebody was using his…
Yeah, someone was using his identity in Alabama.
Well, my social security number, yeah.
Really? And he didn't know this, and you were able to find that out?
That's correct.
And we also found his identical twin, and I mean…
Well, I already knew about him, though.
But it is the spookiest, creepiest thing you've ever seen.
I mean, like, separated at birth.
How did you do that?
Well, you have – no, no, no.
Yeah, you've got to see.
You've got to see.
All right.
This is actually an amazing story, but I will tell you, we had some ground rules.
No field investigation whatsoever, no dumpster diving, no government databases, nothing like that.
Why not? Why not?
Well, because the whole purpose of this was to show what information is readily available
to the average investigator, the average consumer, the average HP board member,
that sort of thing, on any individual.
And we spent – and we also limited it to half a day.
So in four and a half hours, we got 936 pages of stuff on record.
Wow.
Big plastic bag, which we're bringing, everything from photos to where he eats to his religious –
You found my friend who registered under my name at a hotel in Guatemala?
That's right.
That's right.
But how did you find out where he eats?
That I'm curious about.
Well, credit card bills.
Credit card bills, and also because he ordered in through an 800 number.
And one of the things we talk about, for example, is how little nuggets –
and I'll throw out a good one now just to tease everybody –
how the U.S. Marshals Service buys the Domino's Pizza 800 number list.
Oh, they don't, really?
They really do. They really do.
They buy – everybody who calls Domino's, the 800 number.
Yeah, because you may change your social security number, move in with your girlfriend's mother,
get a phony driver's license, drive a car with no license plates,
but sooner or later you're going to order pizza.
That's true.
If you call that 800 number, you've got to give a name and an address,
or they don't send little Vinny over because they're afraid about somebody sticking a gun in his hand.
What if you don't call the 800 number, if you call the local number?
You can't. There are no local numbers.
Really? They got rid of those?
They got rid of every local number.
Because a huge profit center now for Domino's,
they sell their 800 number list to, like, Targus and Cusent.
That's the one I couldn't think of before.
Cusent and all of the phone number append companies.
There are 10 companies in the U.S. that have overlapping coverage of every phone number in America.
Each one of those 10 companies has 50% saturation.
One is AARP, Walmart, Domino's.
Come to the speech for the other seven.
Well, now, interesting, because obviously they're—
It's not going to be a speech. It's going to be totally interactive.
Right, right, as are all your talks over at all the HOPE conferences.
Exactly.
Up until this one, we weren't able to speak, but we're making up for it.
But this whole Domino's thing fascinates me.
Now, what they're obviously using is ANI from the 800 numbers.
That's exactly right.
Now, not Kevin.
I know you're involved in trying to figure out a way to defeat that,
to actually make ANI be blocked.
Now, is that something that's not possible now or something that few people can do?
It's very possible and very easy to block your ANI.
Spoofing your ANI is completely different, but it is possible.
And then what would happen?
Is that a possible way to defend yourself against this kind of a thing?
Yeah, get Skype out.
And then it's undressable.
Well, you don't even need Skype.
That's the easiest way.
You could use a landline or a cell phone to cause an ANI fail.
Okay, but then they get an ANI failure,
so Domino's has no idea what number you're calling from,
and I guess you have to give them a number, a different number.
Yeah, the problem is Domino's will not deliver to you
unless your phone number resolves back to the delivery address.
Well, here's the thing.
If you call from a VoIP line, if you're using Vonage or something,
and you have a Seattle area code, but you're in New York,
or if you call from a cell phone, how's that going to work?
Well, and they have, for example, they buy up,
we show a whole mapping system where one of the huge insidious creeping,
it's like the third time I've used that expression tonight,
but creeping invasions of privacy is how people are tracking you physically,
but not only tracking you physically, they know what's at where you're at.
They know if you've been at a location where there's a nudie bar.
Wow.
And then with all the surveillance cameras,
which I guess will be tied in at some point.
Facial recognition.
I mean, LAPD now has 25 cruisers
riding around with license plate recognition.
Yeah, we've been talking about that.
They can recognize, driving down the street,
they can recognize every single car.
Well, and you know what?
It's a good thing because they recover a lot of stolen cars.
But every car's license plate down the street.
Well, right, right.
And if they want to do something, again, I've got to use this word.
No, I won't use it.
If they want to do something nefarious, new word,
what they can do is they can develop a way to log
what license plate was at what location
just by linking in a little $50 GPS receiver.
Now, here's what Mayor Daley from Chicago is saying.
Security and terrorism won't be an issue
if Chicago wins the rights to host the 2016 Summer Olympic Games
because by that time, according to Mayor Daley,
there'll be a surveillance camera on every corner.
By the time 2016 rolls around,
we'll have more cameras than Washington, D.C.
Let's throw a party.
They're saying it like this is something amazing.
But not more than New York.
New York now has four cameras per block.
Really?
Yeah.
And I actually have a saturation map
that I'm bringing to the Privacy is Dead talk.
That's a key point.
So you'd be able to see Rick walking around the streets
if you had access to all this.
We actually have pictures of Rick.
You have pictures of him?
Yes, we do.
We have some really incredibly scary stuff.
Satellite stuff.
We've got marketing, where he ate,
what his political orientations are,
a whole thing on sexual orientation through databases.
Rick has a girlfriend, by the way.
Rick, you're noticeably paler than when you walked in.
No, no.
It's surprising you were.
Well, I've seen the talk now once,
and it was pretty shocking then.
We did a warm-up out on the West Coast.
But this is the big thing.
I mean, you get everything.
That was a scrunched-together presentation.
Again, let me give out the phone number,
because we do have open lines.
212-209-2950.
Our goal for this hour is rather meager.
A thousand bucks would make us very happy.
We're a quarter of the way there.
And I know we've been on for the last two weeks.
But, hey, we came back this week.
It was a surprise.
This is a bonus show.
So please show your support.
If you're getting anything out of this conversation
or you have in the past
and you just want to support the station,
please call up with whatever you can afford.
Again, $25 will get you an off-the-hook T-shirt.
$50 will get you a copy of Rick's amazing book,
The Geek Mafia.
And $75, if there are any left,
will get you an RFID wallet.
Everything includes an off-the-hook T-shirt as well.
And there's all sorts of other prices, levels.
You can get BAI T-shirts and coffee mugs,
which can also be used for tea,
and all sorts of other items that are out there.
Many, many things.
Too many for us to list right now.
The important thing is you give us a call.
Make that number go up.
212-209-2950.
Please show your support.
Again, it's the only way the station stays on
is by people like you making that phone call.
212-209-2950.
Let's see if we can make these lines light up
just by...
Only one's lit up right now.
Yeah, I think that's a personal call
somebody's making or going out, I think.
That's what I...
212-209-2950 is the number.
And, you know, it occurred to me
that's really kind of an amazing thing
that we're able to keep the station going this way.
I don't think a lot of these commercial stations
could stay in business
if they had to ask their listeners to pay for them.
I mean, I wouldn't pay for Hot 97 or what have you.
You wouldn't?
No, I wouldn't.
You wouldn't pay for Hot 97?
Maybe other people would.
Or Mega Hit.
You wouldn't pay for this quality material
that they bring you on those super compressed radio stations
that seem to come over your toaster?
But the thing is that I do pay for them.
Even though I rarely listen,
I do pay for them with the products I buy.
My money goes to marketing dollars on these stations.
And the amazing thing is
that you pay for them
whether or not you listen to them or not.
Well, if they asked me,
again, they could never raise the money.
But here at BAI, you know,
we're a bit of a shoestring operation.
Sometimes it takes us a little while
to get the thank you gifts out, what have you.
But we are able to support ourselves
because our listeners know
that this content that we provide is valuable.
And I think that really says something.
And I think that's something
all of us tend to forget at some point,
that this place is vastly staffed by volunteers.
And we're trying our best
to make sure everything gets out on time.
Sometimes we might be a little bit late
getting things out.
The important thing is that we keep the station going.
I know lots of times
what you hear on the radio station
might provoke controversy.
That's the point.
That's the point.
If you hear something that makes you really angry,
well, don't take it out on the radio station.
The radio station is making you think.
It's making you defend your views.
That's a good thing.
So hearing things you disagree with,
that's a part of life
and you shouldn't shy away from it.
I think a lot of people do that.
They only want to hear what they believe
and they don't want to hear opposing views.
Here at BAI, we exist to make you think.
And if that has succeeded,
if it's made you angry,
if it's made you want to write to your congressman
or throw things at somebody, who knows?
It's provoking thought.
That's a good thing.
And you should support that.
212-209-2950.
Speaking of writing your congressman,
I have something from the wilds of the internet.
This is a group calling itself Ministry of Love.
And they have a project to gather 315 copies
of George Orwell's book, 1984.
And they're going to send them one copy
to each member of Congress who voted yes
on the so-called Military Commissions Act,
which is the bill that basically allows torture,
to really sort of thank them for their work
in promoting the goals established in the book, 1984.
And this group is at ministryoflove.wordpress.com
to find out more.
So they're going to collect copies of George Orwell's 1984
and send them to these congresspeople
who no doubt will just throw them in the trash, I'll bet.
I mean, how many congressmen actually read?
They'll have a page read it to them.
Yeah.
Bernie, you had something.
Oh, yeah.
I wanted to ask Steve a question.
I'm glad you're on the air tonight, Steve.
Thanks.
You touched on the HP pretexting scandal,
where pretexting is a...
Can you explain briefly what pretexting is?
Because I wanted to read you...
Pretexting is not what they're describing it as.
Two very quick comments about the HP case.
First of all, what HP got involved in,
which is securing their own trade secrets,
is something that every single large company does
and has a right to do and should do.
I mean, protecting your business secrets,
you have an obligation to your shareholders
and to your employees.
What happened was is these guys went overboard.
They started doing things like putting spies into newsrooms,
which is not illegal, but it's unethical,
and then doing things which are illegal,
like obtaining credit card bills, obtaining phone bills.
You know, what astounded me
was both the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal
both said essentially the same thing.
This is a gray area.
There's no specific law
against obtaining somebody's telephone bills.
That's a moronic thing to say.
There is no legal way to obtain somebody's telephone bills.
There's no third-party databases.
For example, I can get the CNA of a cell phone
because it's in a ton of different databases.
Call or name and address. Sorry about that.
I can find out who owns a cell phone legally.
I cannot get those cell phone bills
without doing one of the following things.
Either, this is the most common,
going into your web page where your bill is
on the phone company's site,
which you probably haven't set up with a password.
There's a default password,
and sucking down your phone bills
and setting my own password.
That's illegal.
You know how I do it.
Basically, I ask to borrow somebody's phone for a second,
and I have somebody else on the other end of the phone call
press a button saying,
send my password to my phone.
I get the password that way,
then I give the phone back, thank the person,
and then I go and access their phone records.
Well, they didn't have direct access to the hardware phone.
And most of these so-called info brokers,
many of whom, by the way, are convicted criminals,
who have set themselves up
to sell this openly on the internet.
Yeah, I've noticed that.
Number one, they go into your web account,
which, as everybody, especially you, Bernie, knows,
is a crime.
It's a state crime, it's a federal crime.
In New York, for example,
it's invading or causing to be invaded
a computer system,
plus the federal anti-hacking rigs.
Or, they call the phone company
and they impersonate you.
You can figure out what those crimes are.
Or, they pay off a phone company employee,
which is felony commercial bribery.
Or, they pretend to be a law enforcement officer,
which is a crime.
There is no legal way
to obtain a third party's phone bills,
except for the obvious ones like
a subpoena, a warrant, or dumpster diving.
What if they throw their phone bill out in the trash?
Isn't that fair game?
I said, except for dumpster diving.
And, I beat you to it.
And, smarter than I look.
And, I can assure you that
these info brokers don't have
little magical elves scouring the country
checking garbage bags.
Why did we see so many of these websites
and companies popping up
offering cell phone records,
but not landline records?
They do offer landline records.
But, they seem to be pushing
the cell phone records a lot more lately.
Because they mostly target infidelity concerns.
And, like, I want to know
who my wife is calling on her cell phone.
Okay.
Or, my wife just got a prepaid cell phone,
which she never had before.
And, I know she's using it to call the boyfriend,
so I won't see the number,
and I can't get the bills.
We get all the mail from people
wanting their girlfriend's or boyfriend's
hotmail password,
because they know that they're up to something.
They just want to see all the mail.
And, it's the same thing every time.
Right.
This relationship is not really going anywhere
if you have to ask us for something like that.
Well, right.
I mean, I don't do matrimonial work.
I've been, 20 some odd years,
I've done five cases,
and it's for five close personal friends
who I've begged to go to somebody else first.
You know, if somebody comes to me and says,
I think my spouse is screwing around,
you know what?
Your spouse is screwing around.
Now, we only have a minute or two left,
but I know you mentioned that
you were able to see some of Rick's
credit card purchases.
How is that possible to do legally?
Well, we didn't go into his credit card bills,
which would have been illegal,
even though we have the scariest release
you've ever seen from him.
We're going to put that up on the screen,
because it's so mind-boggling what this guy can do.
My lawyer almost died when I told him
I was going to sign it.
Yes, and I got to tell you,
my lawyer died laughing as he was writing it up.
I mean, he was, tears in his eyes as he was typing.
But, marketing lists.
I mean, all of your likes,
all of your dislikes,
all of what you eat,
where you go on vacation,
what books you read,
what magazines you subscribe to,
everything, every personal detail about you
is now in marketing lists.
And how do you get access to that?
Well, come to the talk.
Well, okay.
The talk will be on Thursday, November 16th.
Again, we're 95% sure.
Just waiting for the final approval,
and hopefully we'll get that in the next day or so.
November 16th, from 6 to 9,
at the Stevens Institute of Technology.
It's probably going to start around 7, actually,
but we urge people to get there.
It's not Thanksgiving Day, right?
It's not Thanksgiving Day.
It's the week before Thanksgiving Day.
From 6 to 9?
From 6 to 9.
It's going to start as early as we can,
because I have never done an event with you guys
without running out of time for Q&A.
I mean, you've got the most,
the questions are so much better than the talk.
Well, we're going to answer all the questions
if we have to answer them on the walk back to the train station.
We're not going to get all the questions answered.
But Stevens Institute of Technology,
located in Hoboken, New Jersey.
And again, don't panic.
It's one subway stop equivalent.
The PATH train is like a subway.
And it's cheaper than the subway, too, isn't it?
It's like a dollar or something?
I don't know.
But it's one subway stop away from New York City.
And details will be posted on www.2600.com
in the next couple of days.
And of course, future editions of Off the Hook
will be discussing this as well.
We won't be on next week,
but we will be on the week afterwards
with, I believe, a normal show.
I want to thank Steve and Rick for stopping by.
My pleasure.
Just for hanging in there
with all the crap that's been going on lately.
And again, listeners, please,
212-209-2950 is our phone number.
It's still time for you to call in
and take advantage of what we have left to offer you.
212-209-2950.
Thanks to everybody who's called in so far.
Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
See you in a couple of weeks.
Brazil!
From the movie Brazil, Terry Gilliam,
who directed this cut.
You must check that out
instead of the Love Conquers All.
That was great, right, Kat?
Brazil.
I'm a big giant Holy Grail fan myself.