It is an emblem of the spirit of freedom.
It is a long, smoldering spark of the fire in the hearts of a people, hearts burning
and yearning for freedom.
From Death Row, this is Momia Abu-Jamal.
These commentaries are produced by Noelle Hanrahan for Prison Radio.
You've been listening to Free Speech Radio News.
Our newscast is supported by Pacifica Radio, community radio affiliate stations, and listener
supporters.
We podcast online at www.fsrn.org.
That's fsrn.org.
And this is WBAI, New York.
Time for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving.
Now I cut myself while shaving.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving.
Now I can't make a call.
We couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would.
Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum!
Bum-diddly-bum!
Bum-diddly-bum!
And good evening to everybody.
Jim is off the hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
And boy, the odds of me being here right now are pretty slim, but somehow it worked out.
We'll get into that in just a moment.
Joining me here tonight, over there on the far side of the studio, is Jim.
Welcome back.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Arseny.
Hello.
There's Mike.
Hi.
Back from Europe.
Welcome.
Thanks.
And over on the other side of the room is not Kevin.
Hello.
Down in Philadelphia, Bernie S.
Welcome back to the land of freedom, Emmanuel.
Well, we're only in Canada for a few minutes.
But it was nice.
And now we're back here.
Oh, sorry about that.
But what a story not Kevin and I had.
Because we actually started this morning from Heathrow in London at a very early hour.
We had to go through all the crazy security there.
What an unpleasant way to start a day.
It is an unpleasant way.
Heathrow Airport.
Well, you know, I got to tell you, I love England.
I love the people.
But it's a big rip-off.
It really is.
We were in a hotel right next to the airport.
And there was supposed to be a shuttle from the hotel to the airport.
And every time I've ever taken a shuttle from a hotel to an airport, it's been a free shuttle.
And we found out the last possible minute that it was four pounds each to go a kilometer away to the airport.
But you couldn't just walk to the airport.
You had to take a long, circuitous route.
So that's about $8.
And the thing is, I didn't have any pounds because I figured I'd spend them all the night before and not have any extra pounds left over.
So I had to negotiate in American dollars with the driver.
And I was actually able to do it.
Well, that's nice.
It was nice.
And then I found I had 10 pounds downstairs when I was trying to pay a cab driver here.
So that was kind of interesting in and of itself.
But, yeah, we had a bit of an adventure after that because, well, we flew through Canada.
And the idea was for us to land in Newark at about 5.30 and then take mass transit to get here by just about 7 o'clock.
But we found out in Toronto that our flight was delayed an hour.
So that meant we wouldn't have gotten here until 6.30.
And you just can't make it that fast on mass transit from Newark Airport to Wall Street.
So we negotiated our way onto an earlier flight that went to LaGuardia Airport.
And then we had to get a cab driver who knew what he was doing to race down here.
And we actually got here earlier than we usually do.
So it was an adventure.
Right, Kevin?
I'm actually surprised at how friendly the Air Canada people were.
They were very friendly.
They were very friendly.
We just walked up to them and said, hey, can we do this?
And they said, well, do you have any bags checked?
And, no, you don't check bags.
This is one reason you don't check bags.
That way you can switch flights easily.
And we didn't have any bags.
Although, when we came from Heathrow, we had to check one bag each because Heathrow has this rule of just one bag.
And they're very strict about it.
They're very strict.
And they're very paranoid, too.
But they don't make you take your shoes off.
Well, that's an American thing, these whole shoes.
It is an American thing.
And all sorts of weird security practices in Heathrow, but not that.
They do make you take your shoes off.
But when we were going through the line, we were herded off to the side around the X-ray.
Two-thirds of the people have to take their shoes off and go through a secondary security thing.
And this other guy can stand there and just wave people by.
And we go down the express lane for some reason.
One thing I did notice, I flew back from Germany.
And some Americans take their shoes off anyway, even though they don't have to, just out of an expectation that that's the requirement.
In Russia, they actually give you plastic socks that you can put over your feet after you take your shoes off so you don't dirty up your real socks.
That's pretty cool, I guess.
Now, we noticed a couple of things on the way through security.
I believe, not Kevin, you saw an X-ray machine.
Yes, the Rapiscan.
Rapiscan.
That's spelled R-A-P-I-S-C-A-N.
Did you ever hear of that one, Bernie?
Yes, I've seen it before, although they have different models.
I'm wondering if it was the newer, improved backscatter version, which effectively will X-ray your clothing or if you happen to be walking.
Was it a walk-through thing or was it just of a bag?
It was a bag.
Yes.
Okay.
But they probably had other ones all over the place as well.
Now, Heathrow, of course, is notoriously stringent on security.
They're very, very paranoid.
But it didn't take that long, what we had to go through.
It really didn't seem to be that bad.
We did get interrogated by a machine because we were checking in.
First you have to insert your passport.
Then it said, okay, now tell me the city you're going to or the credit card you used or your flight number.
And you tell it that.
And then it asks for more information.
It keeps asking you until you basically give it just about all the information anyway.
And I was getting very frustrated with that.
But eventually we were able to register without having to actually stand in a line, which was kind of cool.
So it was a fun day.
It's still going on.
And we spent a good amount of time in London playing around with various security things.
First of all, cameras are everywhere in London, everywhere.
I have never seen anything like this even in a science fiction film.
You just cannot not be on camera anywhere you go, even inside a building.
They're just everywhere.
The people are infatuated with these things.
They believe that these devices are going to keep them safe.
And in actuality, the country is no safer than it was ever before.
There's still just as much violence.
There's still just as much fear going on.
I don't really understand the point of a camera when you're trying to find out who a suicide bomber is.
You're going to find out in other ways anyway.
Unfortunately, this system has become ingrained in people's heads.
And I've read several accounts.
I was reading the papers on the way over today.
Several accounts were people who were accused of committing crimes.
They committed the crimes out in the woods somewhere because they wanted to avoid being captured on camera.
They're committing the crimes still.
They're just going someplace else to do it.
They know where the cameras are, so they're adjusting their behavior and simply taking it someplace else.
So I guess the only solution is when everything is being monitored and then people won't commit any crimes except in their heads perhaps.
They're working on that.
No place to hide.
Apparently not.
Not in England anyway.
That's a very good point.
Almost every time you hear statistics from law enforcement or government agencies that say that these surveillance cameras have reduced crime everywhere we put them,
well, yeah, people move out of camera range to other areas and commit their crimes there.
If they were to take the sum total of crimes in a given city or crime market, if you want to call it that, I'm sure it hasn't changed that much.
In Newark, New Jersey, they're putting cameras all over the place now.
You can read this article in the Star Ledger where the police director, Gary McCarthy, says, quote,
I kind of feel like a kid on Christmas morning in response to all his new cameras.
Oh, God.
See, the danger, it's funny.
It is funny.
But the danger is that it doesn't go away.
These cameras are going to be here forever.
Just imagine any movie or TV show you've seen of a street in London in the past, how it looked.
It's not going to look like that anymore because there are going to be these peering eyes all over the place constantly staring at you.
We were walking around yesterday and where was it?
In the financial district there's this building with a giant opening on the top, a giant circular opening.
It was a walkway through the mint of London.
You can just see the sky, this vast circular opening with just the sky visible.
But peering over the edge is a little camera staring straight down at you, staring straight up.
There is no place you can go where they're not looking at you.
It's just so sad to see this happen to England.
I think England has been through so many things, so many bombings and terrorist attacks over the years.
But nothing has threatened its character like this.
I shudder to think where the future is going to lead.
And it's coming here too, the Ring of Steel.
The Ring of Steel is coming to New York.
We're looking at them as an example, a shining example of success.
They're not that successful.
They keep having more and more bombings.
I know. Isn't that something?
The thing is the last attempted bombing they had was not prevented at all by CCTV, by the closed circuit television cameras.
It was prevented by ineptitude.
People literally driving flaming cars into airport terminals and not being able to do that properly,
leaving cars with all sorts of explosives and running away from them and people finding them without the use of cameras.
They were caught because they were trying to blow themselves up and they failed.
The cameras didn't do anything.
And yet the cameras are being touted as the answer, the solution.
I believe that the cameras are quite useful in that when making suicide martyr videos after the fact,
you don't have to have spent anything on a camera of your own.
You can get it off the news feeds afterwards for your heroes who are now immolated.
All right.
Another bit of technology we were playing with quite a bit was something known as the Oyster card,
which is a transit card that we came to know and love in our days in London.
Matt, Kevin, what kind of technology is in use here?
Is this RFID? Is this something else?
I believe this is a proxy card.
A proxy card. Okay.
Mike, you're looking at it very closely.
What do you think?
I think they really want you to reuse it.
Yeah, they do.
They give you a little wallet.
What you do is you can either register your Oyster card.
That means you can maintain it online.
You can look at your trip history and add money online.
Or you can do what we did and get a pay-as-you-go card,
which basically means you shove five pounds into a machine and then touch your card to the machine,
and then you have five more pounds and you can use it.
Now, okay, I'm going to read you a little bit of the instructions that I saw.
I took this from Wikipedia, and this sort of gives you an idea how kind of crazy this system is.
The card can hold up to three ticket products at the same time.
These tickets may be travel cards valid in specified zones or bus passes.
Both travel card and bus passes may be issued for validity of one week or longer, up to one year.
The Oyster card is designed to be multimodal.
Is that how you say that?
Modal.
Modal. Okay. Multimodal.
That means it can work on buses and trains and other modes.
All right. The Oyster card is designed to be multimodal.
Okay. And works across London's tube, DLR, tram, and bus network.
Users with period travel cards can also travel on rail services within the travel card zones,
roughly corresponding to the Greater London Area and all the zones they have validity for in their card.
Travel cards can be loaded onto the Oyster card up to a month in advance of their start date.
In addition to ticket products, Oyster cards can also be used for stored-value travel.
Oyster cards can be topped up with stored value of up to 90 pounds.
The pay-as-you-go, initially known as prepay balance,
is automatically debited by the correct fare at the end of each journey by tube or DLR,
and each time a bus or tram is boarded.
The balance is also debited by the relevant amount if the user travels by tube or DLR
beyond the zonal validity of any travel cards stored on the card.
When using pay-as-you-go at stations with barriers,
debiting is seamless as users need to use the card to open the barriers.
At stations without barriers, users have to remember to touch the card on a validator
at the beginning and end of the journey in order to debit the card by the correct amount.
Pay-as-you-go users can also use certain sections of National Rail,
mainly between stations also served by London Underground.
Pay-as-you-go users can also travel within Greater London on most bus routes
operated under London Local Service.
Pricing is fairly complex and changes from time to time.
The most up-to-date fares can be found on Transport for London's Farefinder website.
As of January 1st, a cash bus and tram fare cost two pounds,
while the single Oyster fare is one pound,
but capped at three pounds for any number of trips in a day.
When using Oyster on the Underground, a single trip within Zone 1
cost one pound fifty, four pounds cash,
or one pound, three pounds cash, within any other single zone.
When traveling on the Underground and DLR, in addition to buses and tram,
the price of journeys is capped at 50 pence,
below the price of the relevant one-day travel card.
London is the only city in the world that offers this kind of capping.
That's good. That's the equivalent of a one-day MetroCard
without ordering it in advance.
Did you understand this? Because when I read this...
I got about three quarters of it.
When I read this, I just said, keep me away from this thing.
This is the most complex fare system I've ever heard of.
And it goes on for many, many pages about capping and recharging
and auto top-up, penalty fares, maximum cash fare.
It's unbelievable.
But we met up with our friend Russell in London,
and I think in about a minute he was able to explain it
in a way that made sense.
And basically what happens is you buy the thing,
you put five pounds onto a card,
and I think the total amount for a travel card for a day
is I think around 450.
So the way it works is that you can't possibly spend more
than a daily travel card.
You'll get 50 pence less than that,
and if you keep using it, it'll top out.
It won't go above that amount.
If you just use it once, then you'll pay I think one pound
or something like that.
If you use it and you don't tap out of the system properly,
you'll get charged four pounds.
So when it works, it's a really good system
because you just tap in and tap out,
or just tap in on a bus, and it's like you have just the ability
to always be on a train or a bus someplace.
But when it doesn't work, when it doesn't work,
that's when it gets to be a little bit crazy.
And in fact, we had a little run-in.
When we got back to London, was it yesterday?
Can I say yesterday?
Two days ago.
Two days ago?
Yeah, I don't know.
Days are all messed up right now.
For some reason, even though we got them at the same time,
you had more value on yours than I had on mine,
and we could not figure out why.
I apparently had 30 pence more than Emanuel did,
even though we traveled together,
always tapped in and out, out of every station.
Yeah.
Now, we printed out receipts.
You can go to a little fare office and give them the card
and ask for a printout, and they give you printouts.
Now, we discovered a discrepancy.
What's the discrepancy you discovered?
Maybe some of our British listeners can help us
figure out what happened.
Well, the first discrepancy I noticed was that
when I traveled from King's Cross to Victoria,
I was charged nothing, while you were charged a pound 50.
Why was I charged a pound 50 to do the same thing you did?
And then you show up coming in at a different station somehow, right?
Then we leave an hour later,
and we're apparently at two different stations,
and you are charged less than I am.
Because I had already been charged another amount,
and I was about to be topped off or something, right?
And then your cap was applied.
My cap was applied.
And I still end up with 30 pence more than you do.
Yeah.
So somehow that happened,
even though we were going through the exact same turnstiles
at the exact same time.
And I talked to the people at the Underground about this.
I asked them, so what's causing this?
And their response is, we don't know.
This is just the way it is.
And that's the mentality.
The system says this.
That's the way it is.
We don't know why.
That's it.
Deal with it.
And there's nothing else they can offer.
So it's kind of a…
One of the things they said was, maybe you forgot to tap out.
And it's impossible to forget to tap out inside the metropolitan area
because the gates don't open if you don't tap out.
Just to make this clear,
you guys bought it at the same time?
Right.
At the same location?
Same exact location.
Every trip you made was together?
Mm-hmm.
Neither of you made a trip?
I've seen them, and I've seen the descriptions.
Yeah, it's right there in black and white.
We have the printout.
Nothing different, huh?
No.
Wild.
And, you know, if you guys don't believe me,
I can subpoena the CCTV footage
that captures not Kevin and myself
walking through the various tube stations
and the various streets to get to the tube stations.
And this is true.
You can do this.
If you know you're on a camera at a certain time,
there's some kind of law in England that says
you're allowed to get those records.
We were going to make a special program
in the middle of a square,
but just didn't have enough time.
I see a fascinating discrepancy
even before the one that Kevin mentioned.
One of these cards had money added to it
at Pimlico on March 8th?
No, you're reading the date backwards.
They put the...
Oh, on August 3rd.
Mm-hmm.
And both of them had money added at Pimlico
on August 4th at about 11.22 in the morning.
But one of them had five pounds added the day before.
I think what you're...
Is that the first entry you're looking at?
Yeah.
Yeah, I think what happened is
it scrolled off on not Kevin's,
so you're not seeing the five pounds added before that.
Because I think it only gives you
the last 20 trips or something,
the last 10 trips.
I can explain it after the show.
One of you had a rejected entry...
That was me.
I got rejected.
Earlier than the other.
Different stations.
Very upsetting, very embarrassing.
Lots of flashing lights and people running around.
Yeah, it says, seek assistance, and I did.
I don't know.
One thing that's interesting about the Oyster cards
is that you can actually end up
with a negative balance on your card.
Yeah, and I think you have a negative balance now
because we went all the way out to Heathrow,
which is Zone 6,
and you only had 30 pence on your card,
and you exited,
and I think it has to let you out.
I believe it has to let you out,
but the sign will flash, seek assistance,
and then a negative 1.60 pence.
Yeah, so we beat the system,
even though we had to pay
a three-pound deposit for these cards.
It's a good system.
It's a fun system,
but man, they make it so damn complicated
for no particular reason.
Well, I don't know if this is still true,
but the last time I was on the Washington Metro,
you could conceivably get a negative balance
and have to add money to your card
in order to be let out of a station.
Yeah, well, they've had ad fare down there for years,
and you can't get stuck in that system.
You can get stuck in the Boston system, too.
You can't get stuck.
You can't get a negative balance.
In Boston, you can no longer get stuck.
Oh, really? Okay.
They've fixed that.
They finally fixed that.
They have something called the Charlie card,
and finally, after many, many years of confusion,
all subway fares in Boston now cost the same amount.
It's just that no one can any longer tell you
what that amount is.
Now, we also looked around a lot
at the cameras for the congestion charge.
Everything in London, there's a camera for it.
Red lights, cameras, underground cameras,
congestion charge cameras.
Everything has cameras.
It's insane.
And we were wandering around the various zones,
but there was an interesting article that came out
in yesterday's or two days ago, Evening Standard.
And, Mike, you're going to love this.
25,000 small cars are going to be escaping
the congestion charge.
They're going to be given a free pass.
These cars include the BMW 1 Series,
the Citroen C1, C2, C3, and C4.
The Fiat Grand Punto and the new Panda,
the Mini Cooper D, and look at this,
the smart Ford 2, exempt.
I can take my smart car into the congestion zone
in London and not pay a thing.
Now...
The real will be on the wrong side, though.
One hell of a drive, though.
Yeah, there's all kinds of outcry about this, actually,
because...
I'm outraged.
Yeah, well, I mean, I can understand it,
because Ken Livingston, the mayor of London,
when he came up with this idea,
it was a congestion charge.
And now it seems to be an emission fee.
If your car has low emission,
then you get in for free.
And a lot of people are saying
this is going to add more congestion,
because you're going to have all these cars again,
not really emitting much pollution,
but still congesting.
So which is it?
Is it emissions, or is it congestion
that we're trying to prevent here?
I like the other part of his plan,
where big cars have to pay even more.
But the free thing, it doesn't make sense
to me.
Right now, cars pay £8,
and what he would like to do
is increase that to £25.
I think that's a great idea.
And I think that kind of system would work
in New York for the biggest polluters.
But the small cars would pay nothing.
I think the small cars would pay something,
but they should pay less.
It's interesting that it's now
seeming to be linked to emissions in London,
because yesterday, or perhaps the day before,
the Congress gave New York
a mere million and a fraction
to start the congestion pricing studies.
$10 million.
$10 million?
I'm sorry, you're right.
They get a million and a half now,
but if they move forward with the plan,
they'll get a total of a third of a billion dollars,
$10 million for congestion charging
and most of the rest for improved bus service.
But the point is that some newsman pointed out,
isn't it silly to go through
ordering all the cameras and all that
with this not necessarily being approved
by the state legislature?
And Bloomberg did not then talk about
congestion alleviation.
He said, well, you tell that to some parent
of a kid who has to go to the hospital
four times in a month because of asthma,
because of all these pollutants.
And so I see we're already devolving here.
We're going to get the cameras, no matter what,
because that's what they really want,
and they'll do anything,
whether it's selling green technology
or just frightening us to death
with the threat of terrorism,
whatever it is,
they're going to use it as an excuse
to have cameras watching us.
And look at London.
Look at the way they are now.
That is us in five years
unless we do something about it.
But if we become so dependent on cameras,
what happens if the power goes out?
You know, I don't know.
London probably has answers for that.
I'm sure they have some kind of backup system,
but that's a good question.
It's a good question.
But the power doesn't go out nearly enough
to thwart these things.
All right.
Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
As far as these cameras going out, as you say,
I'm wondering how long it'll be
before criminals and people
that just want to preserve their privacy
figure out ways to cover the lenses with shrouds.
You know, you've seen these sort of police guns
that shoot nets at people or shrouds at them.
I'm wondering if a device could be built
that would just shoot a little shroud
over the camera lens or a paintball gun,
for that matter.
That would probably make you guilty of terrorism.
Yes.
You'd have to wear a mask.
And most people, including people in this country,
would say, yeah, throw the book at them for doing that
because what other purpose could you possibly have?
Privacy is not something to be protected anymore,
apparently.
Years ago, we were talking about this,
about a city that actually was thinking
of having a camera watching public streets,
and people were outraged.
And now, as in your city, Bernie,
people are outraged when the cameras
don't catch somebody.
Why aren't these cameras working?
Why aren't there more cameras?
Cameras, that's what we need.
That's going to fix everything.
That was whipped up.
That public sentiment, I think,
was whipped up by our district attorney
who said that's why the murderer got away.
But that just justifies her rationale
for having more cameras.
And the thing is, we spent some time in England
and spent some time in Netherlands and Germany.
I don't know.
Kevin, what do you think as far as,
did you feel safer in London because of all the cameras,
or did you feel safer in Amsterdam and Berlin
with virtually no cameras?
I don't think I felt a difference in being safe.
It was just a lot less watched
when you were in other countries.
It seems to me, just reading the various newspapers
in the areas, that there seems to be
more violent crime in England.
There seems to be a lot of it.
And I got to wonder, these cameras aren't doing anything
to prevent that, so what exactly are they doing?
Enough about the cameras, though.
England has all sorts of funny signs around the place.
We saw one today, or whatever day it was.
I woke up last.
Basically, it was in a parking lot.
It said, public notice.
Empty your car when parking.
Yeah, if you leave a car in a public parking lot
with stuff in it, it's going to get taken away
or blown up or something.
They don't want that.
They want empty cars.
What if you put it in the trunk,
or as they call it, the boot of the car?
I don't know.
I'm not sure what the technology is.
These are people that go around and can figure out
if you're watching television with their vans.
It's quite possible they can detect
if you have a suitcase in the trunk as well.
Unreal.
And then I saw these other signs.
This is right around New Scotland Yard,
their police headquarters.
Basically, they have these big banners,
these kind of Orwellian-style posters
that are hanging up on the walls.
Terrorism.
If you suspect it, report it.
Now, here are a couple of handy bits of information
that you may not know.
Terrorists need information.
That's right.
Observation and surveillance help terrorists plan attacks.
Have you seen anyone taking pictures
of security arrangements?
Terrorists need communication.
Anonymous pay-as-you-go and stolen mobiles are typical.
Have you seen someone with large quantities of mobiles,
mobiles being cell phones?
Has it made you suspicious?
Terrorists need transport.
If you work in commercial vehicle hire or sales,
has a sale or rental made you suspicious?
Terrorists need to travel.
Meetings, training, and planning can take place anywhere.
Do you know someone who travels
but is vague about where they're going?
Wow.
What a society is being built over there.
That's one of the signs.
Now, here's another.
Wait, all that on one sign?
Yeah, that's one big poster.
And there's a second one that's about the same size.
Terrorism, if you suspect it, report it.
It's sort of, I guess, the partner to
if you see something, say something.
But a lot more wordy.
Yeah, and a lot more prevalent, too.
It really is.
Terrorists use protective equipment.
Handling chemicals is dangerous.
Maybe you've seen goggles or masks dumped somewhere?
Mm-hmm.
All right.
You better report
if you see a bunch of goggles lying in the street.
That's for sure.
Terrorists use multiple identities.
Do you know someone with documents
and different names for no obvious reason?
Stop looking at me.
It's not fair.
Terrorists need storage.
And then we don't have any hard drives.
Maybe we do.
Lock-ups, garage...
What is a lock-up?
I would guess that's like a self-storage thing.
All right.
Lock-ups, garages, and sheds
can all be used by terrorists to store equipment.
They can be used by anybody else in the world
to store equipment, too.
Are you suspicious of anyone renting commercial property?
Terrorists use chemicals.
Do you know someone buying large or unusual amounts
of chemicals for no obvious reason?
And finally, terrorists need funding.
Check and credit card fraud
are ways terrorists generate cash.
Have you seen any suspicious transactions?
So basically, any kind of crime
that you might come across,
whether it's credit card fraud
or somebody dumping goggles
when they're not supposed to dump them,
it's got to be linked to terrorism somehow,
and people are suspicious and must report this.
And you're supposed to call 0800-789-321.
That's their toll-free number.
We can't call it from here, I don't think.
That only works inside the United Kingdom,
the 0800 numbers.
But 0800-789-321,
confidential anti-terrorist hotline.
And they had another poster.
It just had a bunch of shadows
that was supposed to represent people
who have called that
and whose identities were protected.
So you're totally safe calling them
to report your neighbor,
and you're encouraged to do so as well.
Can we talk a bit about
suspicious transactions on credit cards?
Yeah, please.
That's another thing.
This is more of an American thing,
but a bunch of people had trouble with that.
I had a little bit of trouble,
and a friend of ours had a lot of trouble.
When you travel,
and you're making ATM withdrawals or purchases
or what have you in foreign countries,
your bank will very often find this to be suspicious
and shut down your card
until you call them to confirm
that it was indeed you who went to these countries.
How dare you travel without getting permission
from your credit card company first?
So I apparently got a telephone call,
but I was out of the country,
so I didn't receive it.
And then they sent me an email.
And when I got home,
I found I also had a letter
all about this one transaction
where I withdrew not a huge,
but larger than normal amount of money
from an ATM in Germany.
And I don't really know what...
They could clearly see I've been traveling
for all this time,
and then all of a sudden I'm in Germany,
and I withdrew money
because I had to pay for the camp.
The chaos camp that we had all just been at.
The chaos.
And they really didn't like this.
We were with a friend of ours
in a small German city
that was going through utter hell.
Eberswalde.
Was that...
Yeah.
That's not the kind of town
you want to be in when something bad happens.
It's a lovely town,
but it sounds evil when you say that again.
Eberswalde.
I'm probably saying it wrong,
but it's close enough.
Imagine saying that you're stranded there
and can't get out.
Can't get mail from them now.
The thing is,
he found out that he couldn't take money
out of his ATM card.
And he did not get an email.
He just went to the ATM,
and it wouldn't give him any money.
And when he called them at his expense...
Actually, at your expense.
You borrowed your phone.
They wanted to know that it was him.
They didn't believe that it was him calling.
They thought that somebody stole his card,
and they had the audacity to call them
to try and get the block lifted.
And the questions they were asking him
were utterly insane.
They wanted to know
when he opened the account,
at what branch,
the zip code,
the address,
all this information that
even if you were sitting at home,
you'd have difficulty obtaining it.
They would not believe his name.
They would not believe his address,
his account number,
social security number,
all that information.
I think they were just really being nasty.
But it goes to show the kind of hell
that a credit card company or a bank
can inflict upon you when you're traveling.
You missed the worst piece of information
they asked him for
that no one could possibly know,
which was they wanted to know
the exact amount in US dollars
of his recent transactions,
which he could have told them
the amount in euros of his transactions,
but the amount in US dollars
requires knowing their exact exchange rate,
which changes daily, of course.
And there's no way any human
could possibly know this information,
and yet they were demanding it of him.
Unbelievable.
Speaking of credit cards,
this is something that I noticed
many times on this trip,
and it was really frustrating and annoying.
You'd be in an establishment
that takes MasterCard or Visa
or something like that,
and you have a MasterCard or a Visa,
and you offer to pay
with your MasterCard or Visa,
but then they say,
no, no, we don't take those kind of cards.
We only take the cards
with the chips in them
that all Europeans have
and no Americans have.
So basically,
it's become almost useless
having a credit card overseas
because we don't use the same technology.
They use this,
I think it's a better technology.
They bring the machine out to you
and insert your card,
you enter a PIN,
it's got a little chip on it,
and no signature or anything like that
because signatures can obviously be forged
and nobody looks at them anyway.
Now, the problem is
that the MagStripe cards
generally don't work
with these kinds of machines,
and so they just don't take them.
Now, what I want to know is,
as an American citizen,
how do I get one of these things
so that when I travel,
I can actually use a credit card?
Does anybody know of a way to do this?
I don't think you can.
I mean, you'd have to open up
a foreign bank account somehow,
as far as I know.
Well, a credit card company
isn't a bank account.
It's a line of credit.
Yeah, but you don't have
any credit history in, say, Germany.
Well, the thing is,
if I make a transaction, I do.
The thing is, these are the same banks.
The same banks are offering it
to people over there
because they live over there
but not people over here.
I don't know. Call them and ask.
I intend to,
but I'd like to know
if any of our listeners
know anything about this. Jim?
You may have to have an account,
a credit card account,
with the European subsidiary
of the American bank,
which would enable you
to get this sort of card.
I'm just annoyed
that we're being left behind
yet again on something
that the rest of the world
seems to be embracing.
I do remember chip and PIN cards
coming out a few years ago here,
but they've just about all disappeared.
Why is that?
Why do things disappear?
Like, the metric system disappeared.
All these things that are good ideas
just disappear
when they're introduced over here.
I'll never figure it out.
Okay, the CCC camp,
we did a show live from there last week,
and that was a lot of fun.
However, that was only
the first day of the camp.
We had another four days after that
and all sorts of experiences,
all sorts of fun things.
In fact, we've brought back
some interesting little toys as well.
But...
Did we lose Bernie?
Oh, you'll have to try
and reach him again, I suppose.
He was on a landline.
That's supposed to be more reliable.
Usually he's on a cell phone.
So, not Kevin,
some of your impressions
as to the highlights
of the CCC camp,
the German hacker camp
that lasted longer
than any other hacker event
in history, five days.
I think my highlight of the camp
was the way they structured it,
being that they set up villages
and embassies,
and villages being
a small group of tents
that focus on one topic,
like lockpicking,
and embassies being a larger tent
that represents a country.
Yeah.
And we spent some time
at the Italian embassy,
and I gotta tell you,
those guys are great.
We had so much fun
just hanging out with them
and talking to them
about the various philosophies
and politics and things like that.
See, hacking in different countries
is completely different
everywhere you go.
The Italians are completely different
from the Germans,
different from the British,
different from the Americans.
And going to a place like that,
you just wind up
coming away with so much,
so many different ways
of looking at the same thing.
You forgot the Austrians.
The Austrians, too.
They have potato guns in Austria.
They have potato guns?
What were they firing
with that potato gun?
Potatoes, mostly.
No, but at what?
At walls.
At COCDs,
SCOCDs,
they performed a haxorcism,
as they called it,
of SCO Linux CDs
by firing potatoes,
and they burned a CD.
And this was put together
by some folks from the group
called Monochrome,
and it was kind of fun.
Yeah, we're going to be doing
some things with them
in the future, too,
because they're a cool group of people
down there in Vienna.
But yeah, imagine that,
being out in the middle of the night
in this huge camp field
slash forest slash air force museum
in East Germany,
and people are just doing
all sorts of spectacular things,
like firing potato guns
and lighting fireworks
and having all sorts
of parties everywhere.
The best thing was that
no village or embassy
wouldn't accept you.
There was no language barrier
or anything.
If I wanted to learn
about VoIP phones,
I would go find that village,
and they would just sit me down,
and they'd explain
everything I needed to know.
Or if I wanted to learn
about something else,
I would go find it.
They said at the end of the camp
there were over 60 villages
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's incredible.
That's absolutely incredible.
This was, I think,
the best of the hacker camping events
that have taken place in Europe.
And I'm just disappointed
more Americans didn't show up,
because this changes you.
This changes...
There were, to be fair,
more Americans than I think
I've ever seen
at one of these before.
There were, but I think
the problem was
most of them tend to stick together.
And I think what you need to do
in a situation like this
is just mix in
as much as possible.
Hang out with people
from all parts of the world,
and learn how they think.
Learn what they do differently.
And, yeah, it's great
to see people there.
It's great to see Americans
over there and people
from all over the world.
I want to see more.
I want to see more people
over there doing
more interactive things.
Okay, we brought back...
Last week you might recall
that I used a brain machine
on me live on the air.
And we actually have
one of these devices in the studio.
Kevin, maybe you could explain
just what this is.
And, Arshton, I know
you know something about it too.
Well, I think Mitch did
a better job of explaining it
last week, but...
Mitch Altman.
Mitch Altman.
But basically it's a pair
of glasses with two LEDs
that will sync up
sound and light
to your brain frequencies
and send you into
a meditative state.
Sounds dangerous,
but it's not.
It's not.
Unless you are epileptic.
All right, yeah.
I guess that's important
to point out.
If you're epileptic,
don't do this.
But it's basically
you put this on your head
and it strobes
and it plays a frequency.
And you've done this.
Actually, the three of you
have done this.
I did it on the radio.
I was kind of distracted,
so I can't really say
I did it properly.
But can you compare experiences,
what it was like doing this?
Well, I only did it
for a short time.
I think I missed
the whole program.
But you definitely get
all these crazy hallucinations
and all this stuff.
Uh-huh.
Good hallucinations or...
Bad hallucinations.
Not bad.
Uh-huh.
Changing your thought
or what you're thinking about
really affects what you see.
If you're thinking
about something happy,
it completely changes
the color patterns that you see.
But if you're thinking
about something serious,
it gets darker for me.
Really?
Interesting.
Arsene, how about you?
Well, I don't know.
I've done that a couple times.
Actually, I had to build
like six of these in one day,
so I'm a little bit tired of them.
But...
Yeah, no.
So the one time I did it
like in complete silence,
I think was the best trip.
And, you know,
you just see all sorts
of geometric patterns.
And what's weird is the colors
because, I mean,
it's just a red blinking LED,
but, you know,
you would see blues
and other weird colors.
Sometimes it's just black and white.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I've seen colors
I've never seen before.
You're kidding.
No.
Colors you've never seen before?
Never seen before.
All right.
Well, okay,
what we're going to do now
is we have the device.
It looks like just
a pair of goggles
with all sorts of wiring
coming out of them.
Do you want to describe
what it is, Arsene?
Well, it's just like
paper shielding goggles,
you know,
something you'd wear
if you're crafting.
I can see a large pile
of those somewhere, though.
You should definitely report it.
Oh, my house.
Oh, no.
Yeah, so,
and then Mitch modified
a kit that someone made.
So it's just a little bit different.
So that's in the battery pack,
and they're both attached
to the goggles,
and then you plug
a pair of headphones in.
But we never actually played
what the sound is
that, you know, they emit.
And it's kind of
a disturbing sound,
but I can play it.
Yeah, let me just caution people.
We weren't able
to play the sound last week,
obviously, because I was
in Germany wearing this
and not over the phone.
But what we're going to do now
is play the headphones
into your microphone.
Now, will this, hold on,
will this hypnotize our audience?
I guess if they're wearing headphones,
I mean, we're only going to play it
for a very short time.
I doubt it.
I think it'd become too distorted.
Could we get in trouble
for hypnotizing the audience?
Because I, you know,
I'm all for getting in trouble
for new and different things,
but I'd just like to know first.
All right.
So if you don't like
to be hypnotized,
maybe you shouldn't listen now.
How long are we going
to play this for?
Just like a few seconds.
And if your radio
is up really loud,
turn it down.
What kind of frequency?
Is it low frequency,
high frequency?
It's pretty high.
Okay.
Somewhere 400, I don't know.
Let's play this
for about 30 seconds.
Let me make sure
I get the right microphone.
I'll turn down the other ones.
And do you want to give me
a signal when you're about to go?
This power switch
is a little hard.
Okay.
Here we go.
Okay.
I think that
pretty much gives
the point there.
Now, that was only
one of four frequencies
that this cycles through.
Oh, can you make them
cycle to other ones
or is it going to do that now?
Well, it's a 10-minute sequence.
Okay.
We're going to do this
for 10 minutes,
I'll tell you that.
But after,
it switches to the second
frequency after a minute.
Uh-huh.
Why don't you just
leave it on,
on a microphone?
Oh, yeah.
How about Redbird's
microphone there
where he's not sitting at?
And that'll be him
for this week.
And we'll just leave it there.
Yeah, I mean,
it actually started off
with something quite low,
but I don't know.
When you're wearing this,
these sounds are so...
Okay.
We're just going to have
that in the background.
Hopefully, it won't
get too annoying.
We attended a talk by Mitch
about how each ear
is slightly different
one from the other.
Uh-huh.
So, I'm not sure
if we'll get the full effect
the way we've got
just sort of both headphones
on one microphone.
How...
Yeah, it's...
We'd have to somehow
wire it in in stereo
which is beyond our abilities.
Okay, well, this is a start.
No other show in the city
is doing this level of hypnosis,
so it's a start.
We'll get better at it.
And soon,
we'll have all sorts of people
doing our beck and call things.
From Mitch's talk,
I learned that
one of the headphones
keeps a constant frequency
while the other one
fluctuates to,
you know,
give a different wave.
Okay.
So, it makes a beat.
Yeah.
But somehow,
the beat is all in your head
because you're not hearing
the beats.
It's a little bit crazy.
Plus, you're seeing this
even with your eyes closed.
Yeah.
I can see it right now
with my eyes wide open.
Yeah.
We should also point out
there's a pair of goggles here
with a flashing,
rapidly flashing red light.
Yeah.
And it looks really weird
when someone's wearing them.
So, and Mitch is probably
going to be here next week,
so he can tell us
all about it.
He can really...
Yeah.
...do a mass hypnosis
of everybody.
Two little lights,
one on each lens,
one could say,
of the goggles
in front of each eye
is what you have here.
And they're red.
It sort of reminds me
a little bit of the Cylons
from the original
Battlestar Galactica,
except it doesn't go
back and forth.
It just flashes.
Well, they were evil, though.
They were bad.
I'm not saying anything
about this.
I'm just commenting
on the coloring.
Bernie, are you getting
hypnotized down there
in Philadelphia?
Yeah.
I was hypnotized
in Philadelphia
I don't have
the visual stimuli
that needed
to go along with this.
But can you hear
this frequency
over the phone?
No, it does not.
Well, it may not be
a frequency response thing,
but it's probably an issue
with the vocoder
in all digital cell phones,
including my
Sprint PCS phone.
I thought you were
on a landline.
Aren't you on a landline?
I was, but then I had to go,
so sorry about that.
Oh.
Okay.
Yeah, and I've been
on a landline.
I might well be able
to hear this,
because it's, you know,
an audio passband.
But if it's anything
other than human phoneme,
it's not going to make
a passive vocoder
in a cell phone.
One thing I'd like
to point out
is this machine
is not just for
hallucinating.
It actually allows you
to go into
a meditative state.
And I'd actually like
for Arseny
to try this out.
It hasn't changed yet,
though.
The frequency
hasn't changed.
Yeah, but actually
the light frequency
has changed.
All right,
but the tone
sounds the same.
Well, the tone
is pretty much
the same,
but the other tone
varies between
411 and 415
or something.
Arseny has put
on the glasses.
Shouldn't you be
wearing the headphones,
too, though?
Should I do that?
Yeah, I think you should.
And then you'll be
wearing two pairs
of headphones,
obviously,
but that's just
part of the...
You don't have
to wear both of them.
You don't have to wear...
You can have
the exact same effect
with just light
or just sound,
but it won't be
as potent.
Okay, we want it
to be potent.
Okay, so we're in
a safe place
right now,
and the hot line
is ringing,
which means that
we're in a lot of trouble.
Can you hear me?
I can hear you a little.
You can hear me a little?
Because, you know,
I have this loud
sound in my ear,
but, yeah,
I'm seeing a lot
of crazy stuff.
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Seeing...
You're in a safe place.
I don't know if...
Don't feel any fear
until we tell you to.
It's always different.
Like, I'm seeing
just plasma colors,
you know?
Mm-hmm.
And crazy distortions
and looks like
a Windows 3.11
screensaver.
Why would you
think of that?
That's what it looks like.
Wow, this is a bad trip, then.
Now, okay, so you...
Should we bring him
out of it?
Well, no, you can
pretty much dictate
where you go,
so think of something
really, really happy now
and tell us
what the images look like.
I don't buy into Kevin's
ideas about that,
but, you know...
Oh, that's negativity.
That's going to lead you
down a bad path.
Well, I'm seeing a lot more
straight lines now.
Oh, yeah.
There you go.
Straight lines.
Straight lines.
Now, try this.
This is what I did last week,
and it was kind of cool.
Close your eyes
really, really tightly,
and the images go
to black and white.
Does that happen to you?
I'm still seeing red,
but actually,
the frequency just changed.
Oh.
Yeah, you're pulsing
slower now.
Well, I'm seeing, like,
trees.
That's cool.
You're seeing trees?
Oh, they went away now.
Wow.
So what now?
Concrete?
Um, tie-dye.
Yeah, interesting.
Okay, well, you're welcome
to sit there
with your eyes flashing
for as long as you want
while we continue with the show
and maybe take some phone calls, too.
Anything else that we want to remember
from the CCC camp,
which was an absolutely incredible event
that people will talk about
for generations to come?
Nothing else?
No other memories?
The fire spinning
and the drum room,
a room filled with people
just banging on drums.
I don't know how this got started,
but all of a sudden,
I found myself in this room.
You could not hear a thing
because everybody was banging on drums,
and it was the loudest thing
I think I've ever experienced,
and actually, I took part in it, too,
and it was so cool
just banging away on things.
I don't know what the appeal is,
but it really is appealing.
I would just suggest
that people who weren't able
to make it to the event,
just go online,
and you can search easily
CCC camp for photos
and all this stuff,
and you'll really get a feel
for what some of it was.
Now, there was a BSD tent,
BSD being an operating system,
and there was a tent
for the BSD people.
Open BSD.
I'm sorry, open BSD.
Embassy.
You got to get this just right
because if you say free BSD
or net BSD,
it's totally different.
It's like Protestants and Catholics.
Or like Coke and Pepsi.
Yeah, but for some reason,
the open BSD embassy
was playing what kind of music again?
Polka music.
Polka music.
I didn't want to say that
unless it was absolutely confirmed.
Now, why in God's name
would the open BSD people,
should I even pursue this,
what's the connection
between polka music and open BSD?
Nobody knows?
They really like it.
Okay, they really like it.
That's good enough.
That's fine.
That's all that's needed.
Polka is jaunty.
It's the national music of Poland.
Open BSD.
I've never described
open BSD as jaunty.
If polka didn't have
so much accordions,
you'd love it.
Trust me.
I didn't say I didn't love it.
If you have a lot of respect
for open BSD
as an operating system,
you could come to one
of their camps
and go to their tent
and you might lose
some of that respect,
but it's fun anyway.
Okay, well,
you said that, Mike.
I did not.
We're going to get letters.
Yeah, you're going to get letters.
All right.
Address those to Mike,
not to us.
Now, also there was,
Kevin, I believe
you had information
about something
the Dutch people were doing
with, what was it,
light-emitting algae
or something?
Light-emitting algae.
The Dutch group NOP,
which I do not know
what it stands for,
built a small pool
in front of their tent
and apparently grew algae
using sound and light
that emits light.
But it was a hoax.
You ruined it.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, Mike,
let the story develop here.
Go ahead.
Continue.
Well, there's not much
to continue now.
Oh, okay.
Well, yes,
it was a hoax.
What was it?
Was it actually glitter
just thrown into the water?
It was just glitter
thrown into the water,
but apparently the story
made Wired.com
and a ton of other sites
and it had all of us
for five days.
It did.
It really did.
It was very convincing.
It was convincing.
I'll say that.
And the other thing,
the final thing
I want to mention,
we're still wearing
the armbands
from these little wristbands
from the camp
and the big joke,
I guess,
on everybody who attended
is that you can't get them off.
They're stuck there for life.
I was worried
going through the airport
that there's a piece
of metal on them.
They'd make it go off,
but they didn't.
No, they didn't seem concerned.
They didn't seem
concerned at all.
I mean, they made me
put my hands out
and wanted me.
I didn't get that.
I think it was because
I forgot to take off my belt
more than the thing
around my wrist.
They didn't even notice my belt.
That's interesting, too.
That's funny.
I totally forgot Arseny's
sitting here
with the flashing eyes
and he looks very content.
Arseny, are you still
in this realm?
Yeah.
I'm actually seeing
a lot of eyeballs
and I've experienced
that before.
Your eyes are closed, though.
I'm seeing,
like, you know,
on the dollar,
they have that all-seeing eye?
Mm-hmm.
I have like a million of those.
I'm looking at them right now.
That's kind of creepy.
Let's give out
the phone number
212-209-2900
if there's anybody out there
who wants to ask questions
or make comments
in the few minutes
we have left.
What happens
if you open your eyes
during this?
Are you supposed to do that?
I don't want to do it.
Not much.
You just kind of see
a flashing red light.
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Did we want to talk
about this story from China?
Yeah.
It's kind of scary, isn't it?
It's so scary
that I don't know
if we're going to have
enough time to really
get into the scariness of it.
But go ahead, Mike.
Okay.
I'm going to read this.
I made it to CNET.com.
I read it in the Herald Tribune
about the city of Shenzhen
in southern China
just across the way
from Hong Kong.
And they're putting in this city
20,000 police surveillance cameras.
Every resident of the city
is going to get
a residency card
with a powerful computer chip
which will include
not just the citizen's name
and address
but also their work history,
educational background,
religion, ethnicity,
police record,
medical insurance status,
and landlord's phone number.
Even personal reproductive history
will be included
for enforcement
of China's one-child policy.
And according to the paper,
plans are being studied
to add credit histories,
subway travel payments,
and small purchases
charged to the card.
And this is China.
They have an awful lot of people.
If they're doing this,
you can bet
it's going to be done
all over the place as well.
And U.S. companies
are involved in this.
Yeah.
Companies are helping them
design these systems.
There's a company called
China Public Security
which is incorporated in Florida.
And they get a lot of their money
from Plano, Texas.
Wow.
Everything comes from Plano, it seems.
That is scary.
I'd like to devote more time
to this story in the future
because it's certainly going to be
something that
we're going to be seeing more of.
Bernie, did you hear about this yourself?
I have.
And I think it's rather foreboding.
I'm wondering if all that information
is actually stored on the card itself
or whether a unique identifier
is on the card
and then that's linked to a database
once that number is entered
into a reader.
According to the article,
it's on the chip itself.
But who knows?
All right.
Let's see if we can take some phone calls
in the few minutes we have left.
Arsene, are you okay?
You look a little...
Yeah.
I'm actually wearing
two pairs of headphones now
so I can still hear
what's going on.
Okay.
Our voices aren't distracting you
from your pleasant trip
down hypnosis lane, are they?
I don't know.
Okay.
Yank those headphones off then
if they do.
No, I like it.
All right.
I'd like to ask our listeners
who call in,
202-209-2900,
speak in subdued tones
because we do have Arsene
who's being hypnotized right now
with the brain machine
that Mitch Altman has designed
and we're playing with nonstop.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Oh, dear.
That's a nasty tone right there.
Let's try this one.
Good evening.
This button doesn't go down.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Speak up.
Okay.
You know, you got to talk too.
This phone is like on something
and it's really making it hard
to press the buttons.
Can we...
Yeah, all right.
Let's try this one over here.
Good evening.
You're on off the...
This is not working out.
Which one?
That one?
But it's not...
Okay, this one.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Speak up, please.
Hi.
Hi.
What's on your mind?
I have...
You know, I have one of those
American Express blue cords
with the ones that you see
right through it?
Yeah, I have one of those.
You can see there's a chip
Oh, okay.
Yeah, we have...
Chase has something called Blink
which looks like a chip
on their credit cards
and it works at 7-Elevens.
Right.
Oh, so I guess...
All right.
How would you know if it's...
How would you know
if it's the same one?
Well, because it's a great big chip
and it sort of dominates
the whole card.
Oh, okay.
Is it like a smart chip?
Yeah, it's a smart chip.
Yeah.
It's basically what the rest
of the world uses.
Blink is actually an RFID card.
Okay, fine.
But that technology
is not the same
and it's not accepted overseas
and hardly anybody here
uses it too.
In fact, when you go to 7-Eleven
they get very confused
when you try to use it.
Okay, let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on Off The Hook.
Hi, guys.
It's Bicycle Mark in Amsterdam.
Oh, hey.
How you doing?
I'm okay.
We hung out with you
quite a bit at the chaos camp.
Yeah, we got to hang out.
We did the embassy tour.
That's right.
The embassy tour
and met the Italians
and lots of fun things like that.
And you gave a pretty good talk yourself.
Oh, thanks.
Yeah, I wanted to let you know
some things like the polka.
That's Finnish polka
to be more specific.
And apparently
it got popular
at the last event
or last camp
was big with the Austrians.
Finnish polka.
Okay, so I guess
that's different from Polish polka then.
Yeah, because they do covers.
They were doing Operation Ivy
and Rancid Punk covers
in polka.
Awesome.
Wow, that's just one
of the many things
that I guess you learn
at an event like this.
Any other final comments
on the whole chaos camp experience?
Well, I'll tell you what was nice.
I spent the last few days
in Berlin
and I kept running into people
from the camp
who I didn't even always
remember very well
who would come up to me
and go, hey,
I was your neighbor at camp.
Everywhere I walked
in Berlin
I was running into people
from the camp
who were excited
to see me again.
Yeah, that was cool.
Berlin was sort of taken over
by hackers for a few days.
We kept seeing them
all over the place ourselves.
Yeah, it was a great event.
You had these neighbors
in the forest
or in the field
wherever you decided
to camp out
and they became your family.
You know, it's incredible.
I don't know
if other people did this.
I don't think
very many Americans did.
But I had no trouble at all
just leaving my laptop
in my tent
if I had to go out
and do something.
I never expected
anything bad to happen.
I don't think
very many instances
of anything bad happening.
I guess one laptop
was stolen.
One laptop
out of what,
I don't know.
Oh, really?
I didn't hear that.
Yeah, and that's bad.
But that's nothing.
I mean,
you couldn't leave it
anywhere
in the States probably
without something
being feared
happening to it.
Anyway,
so that's the Chaos Camp.
Mark,
good hearing from you.
Yeah, likewise.
I'm sure I'll speak to you soon.
All right.
And that's going to
pretty much do it for us here
on this particular edition
of Off the Hook.
If you want to write to us,
our address
O-T-H
at 2600.com.
We'll be happy to read letters
and thoughts
and comments on the air.
And we'll be back next week,
hopefully more awake.
Where have we been up now?
36 hours?
40 hours?
I don't know.
Time zones?
A million hours?
We woke up at 7 in the morning,
but that was in England.
Okay, we're going to
sort it out now.
Stay tuned for the
Personal Computer Show.
Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
Have a good night.