We, we are Soweto Gospel Choir, and you are listening to BAI New York, BAI New York, Sambonali.
Only two things scare me, and one is nuclear war.
What's the other, excuse me, what's the other thing that scares you?
Hi, this is Jamie.
Hi, this is Sarah from Brandvan3000, and you're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM.
New York?
New York.
See how relaxed you're getting?
And you're listening to WBAI New York, where the time is 7 o'clock.
Time once again for Off The Hook.
I hope that's understood, one day we'll know.
Thank you.
And good evening to everybody.
The program is Off The Hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
We're, uh, we're joined tonight by Mike.
Hi.
Jim.
Hello.
RedHack.
Hi.
Rob T. Firefly.
Good evening.
DotRet.
Hello.
And, uh, Volter.
Yeah, you know, I, I tried to tell you, I don't think that mic is working, so try that
one again.
Happy fundraiser, everybody.
Yeah, well, you've pretty much let the cat out of the bag.
This is a fundraising show, uh, which means it's gonna be extra fun.
And, of course, Bernie S joins us.
Why is your cat in a bag?
Uh, yeah.
Uh, Bernie S joins us, uh, down from Philadelphia.
Greetings from Philadelphia.
Uh, yeah, this is the, uh, the first night of the winter, uh, fundraiser, and, uh, we
have all kinds of, uh, special, uh, things to, uh, to bring your way.
It's winter already?
It's winter already.
Wow.
Yeah, in fact, it's February, so we're running a bit late.
Usually we start this, people say we, we fundraise all the time.
We're actually a bit late.
We start in January, usually, for the winter fundraiser, but we're starting in February.
Well, we couldn't fundraise last week.
We couldn't fundraise.
Why couldn't we fundraise last week?
Because the president was giving a speech on Wednesday.
Not during our show, he wasn't.
No, but after our show.
Yeah, that's true.
We couldn't fundraise, then have the president.
That would be just...
No, you couldn't do that, I suppose.
Uh, well, okay, uh, but, uh, we are doing it this week, and, uh, we hope to see a strong
response because, uh, you know, actually, it's, it's because of listeners like you that were
on the air in the first place.
That's, uh, and that's been true since 1960.
This is our 50th anniversary, by the way.
Not the show, the, the, the station.
1960, the station went on the air.
So, wow, that's, uh, that's pretty incredible.
So, yeah, you should, uh, give the, the radio station a birthday present.
Yeah, that would be nice.
So, we have all kinds of incentives, all kinds of things to, uh, to get you to, um, to call
in and, uh, show your support.
But, uh, first, we have some, some news.
Let's just say, if you don't need an incentive, just give us a call, 212-209-2950 and, and
pledge.
Yeah, you can do that.
You could do that, uh, but, um, if you just want to pledge out of the goodness of your
heart without knowing anything about the things that we're offering, that's fine, too.
Uh, like Mike said, 212-209-2950, uh, is our telephone number.
Uh, we have, um, a few items in the news.
We have a special guest, uh, who we'll be talking to in a, a couple of minutes.
Uh, but, uh, first some, um, what I consider to be some very sad news.
Uh, apparently WikiLeaks is shutting down, at least temporarily.
You guys hear about this?
A whistleblower website allows people to publish uncensored information anonymously.
They've suspended operations due to financial problems.
I feel like they did this last year as well.
Did they do this last year?
Did they do this last year?
Or at least before, uh, at least sometime before.
But, uh, they are like us, uh, supported by their audience, and their audience apparently
is not supporting them.
Not, not enough anyway, and that, that does, uh, show you some of the dangers that, uh,
can happen, especially with economic issues.
Uh, WikiLeaks has established a reputation for publishing information that traditional
media cannot.
Uh, the website claims to be non-profit and relies on donations.
Now, I'm reading a BBC report.
I read that same BBC report.
Claims to be non-profit?
Do they think they're lying or something?
I don't know.
It's weird.
They claim to be, uh, you know, impartial with their reporting here on BBC, but who
knows?
Uh, a statement on, uh, its front page says it is funded by human rights campaigners,
investigative journalists, technologists, and the general public.
Uh, WikiLeaks does not accept money from governments or corporations, unless, of course, governments
or corporations would like to donate anonymously.
Uh, a list of names and addresses of people said to belong to the British National Party
was posted on the site in October 2009.
That's, it doesn't, that's not as nice as it sounds.
Right?
The British National Party is basically, what, neo-Nazis or something?
Uh, almost.
Almost.
Okay.
Nazi wannabes?
They're, they're not nice people.
Wiki, WikiLeaks also published email exchanges involving US politician Sarah Palin after
her account was hacked.
Uh, the site claims to have information about corrupt banks, the UN, and the Iraq war that
it is unable to, uh, to publish, uh, while funds remain low.
Um, hopefully, uh, that will get resolved.
But right now, it's, the website is what?
WikiLeaks.org, right?
Yeah.
O-R-G.
Yeah.
Um, hopefully that will get result, uh, resolved.
Go ahead, Bernie.
I just want to point out that the, uh, the old adage that, uh, freedom of the press belongs
to those who own one is, uh, has never been more true, even in this age of the internet
and other, all other forms of digital communication.
Um, that site, WikiLeaks, has been the source of, uh, many stories we have, uh, broadcast
here on WBAI.
I'm off the hook.
And, um, I met these folks at the ARC conference last, uh, summer at, um, the Netherlands at
the big, uh, hacker conference there.
And, uh, they're really a, a very dedicated group of people that have set up an amazing
resource that people can, can, can upload truly anonymously using a Tor client.
Um, uh, leaked documents from organizations that they work for, have contact with, and
there's really no other resource like this where people can anonymously upload, uh, these,
uh, these really important documents.
Many of them are classified.
It's really amazing classified documents on there.
Um, it's really worth supporting.
And I know it kind of conflicts with our, our fundraising effort for WBAI tonight, but
it just goes to show that, uh, if you really want quality information, um, it's not completely
free.
You have to support the people that do the work in the back end.
And consider where you, where you're hearing this information.
You're hearing it over this particular outlet, which also requires support in order to continue.
When, when the support goes away, it all falls apart and then you have nothing.
Uh, .REC, go ahead.
Uh, I just wanted to clarify something for, uh, um, the viewers that might be wondering
why they couldn't release some stuff until they get more money.
And that's probably because they also get sued for, for the service they provide everybody
on a regular basis.
They're like, what, like a hundred lawsuits already?
I don't know how many, but I know they're, they're constantly, uh, defending themselves.
They have to defend themselves.
And also they have to keep some staff.
Cause I remember them talking about how they actually have to, you know, verify.
They can't just post anything that's uploaded because you don't know if the source is actually
a true source.
Yeah.
For people that want to get more information about WikiLeaks and, um, radio or podcast
forum.
There's, there is a great speech by the WikiLeaks co-founders at the, uh, Cask Communication
Congress.
Yes.
2009.
And you can download that from their website.
I was there for that.
Do you know that?
I don't know the website.
Just Google search for Cask Communication Congress.
Well, ccc.de has, uh, has it somewhere.
You have to search a little bit.
Look in their archives.
It was a great speech.
Yeah, it really was.
And hopefully they'll, there'll be more things like that.
If you have any money left over after donating to us tonight, uh, consider giving them a few,
uh, cents, dollars or whatever.
Yeah.
Like donate to us at least first since, you know, we are still here right now.
Okay.
Let's, uh, we can have a whole list of, of places to donate money to.
Haiti and WikiLeaks.
Yeah.
The point is, uh, there, there are a lot of, uh, a lot of organizations out there worth
supporting and, uh, um, consider us because we're the voice that is able to, uh, to tie
it all together.
And, uh, obviously listening to us right now, but, uh, more on that in just a, just a little
bit.
So, uh, as Mike said, if you want to call just to donate 212-209-2950, uh, we have more
information on, uh, cell phone, uh, driving and, and bands and things like that.
This is, um, something that I saw on the CNN website, uh, that says state laws that ban
drivers from talking on handheld cell phones seem to have no effect on crash rates.
According to a study released last Friday, the Highway Loss Data Institute compared collisions
of 100 insured vehicles per year in four different jurisdictions before and after bans on handheld
cell phone use took effect.
Study was done in New York, Washington DC, Connecticut, and California.
Now, data were also collected from nearby states for comparison.
Monthly fluctuations and crash rates didn't change after bans were enacted.
The study found crash rates compared to nearby places without handheld phone bans also didn't
change.
Uh, earlier studies by the Institute, which is funded by insurance companies, found fourfold
increases in injury-related crash risk associated with cell phone use.
So this result was surprising.
Surveys of driver behavior followed bans, uh, following bans raised more eyebrows.
They showed actual reduction in cell phone use, the Institute said.
We're currently gathering data to figure out this mismatch, says the Institute, uh, president.
One possible reason, they suggest, is that drivers are simply switching to hands-free
phone use.
Uh, some studies suggest that the risks of hands-free phone use while driving is a little
different from handheld phone use.
It gets kind of confusing and crazy after a while.
Bernie, go ahead.
Not much.
They've done some studies, and they found that, uh, people were distracted almost as
much from, uh, a cell phone conversation in the car, uh, when it's hands-free as when
they're holding a phone in their hand.
I mean, it seems almost counterintuitive that, you know, if you have both hands on the wheels,
it can be way safer.
But it's the psychological distraction, the mental distraction, that I think affects a
lot of people.
Maybe not everybody.
I think everybody has different attention, uh, and focusing levels in their brain.
But by and large, if you're having a conversation with somebody on the phone in a car, hands-free
or not, it's a dangerous distraction.
Um, you know, I don't really think this is really much of a surprise to any of us.
Most of us really know that, uh, this doesn't really seem like it's doing anything to help
protect us, but rather serving as, um, a de facto tax.
So people really should just, you know, contact their representatives to try to get this thing
removed.
I don't think it necessarily has to be repealed.
I just think that, I mean, it's not surprising because of the fact that most people don't
look at, you know, I know that if I was driving, I probably wouldn't want to.
Most people use their cell phones and, like, text and things, which is insane.
But those people are a minority.
Um, but the distraction...
Well, like I mentioned last week, I'm able to text while driving.
I just don't look at my phone.
Well, we're not talking about texting.
But the distraction is still, I mean, there with a conversation or not.
And I don't necessarily think just because it's no, uh, more safe because, you know,
people have to use hands-free sets doesn't mean that you should get rid of the law entirely.
Here's, here's something else.
I don't think it's a bad thing.
Here's something else that's of concern.
A Massachusetts house, my favorite state, struck by a lumber truck whose driver said
he passed out after choking on chili will be demolished.
There's nothing funny about this, all right?
Chili and driving do not mix.
Now, police said on Monday structural engineers and city building inspectors determined that
tearing down the entire home is the only safe way to remove the truck, which has been lodged
inside the house since Friday.
The truck driver claims that he choked on the chili he was eating when his truck hit
a bump.
Uh, the flatbed truck veered off the road and slammed into the house in Lowell, Massachusetts,
about 25 miles northwest of Boston.
Uh, driver hospitalized, minor injuries.
Woman in the home was not hurt.
But, uh, come on, folks.
I mean, we're spending all this time on cell phones.
We're not talking about food.
And food is a major, a major issue.
Not just chili.
I'm not just anti-chili.
Putting on makeup.
I'm just putting on makeup, combing your hair.
There's lots of distractions, but most people don't do them.
Yeah, but, but people who can't handle two things at once.
This is veering farther and farther away from what we normally talk about on this program.
Veering is exactly what happens.
But, but, I think it's relatively clear that being distracted while you drive is unsafe.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so make that illegal, to be distracted.
Okay.
By.
I'm sold.
By.
How do you do that exactly?
That's, that's the question we're asking.
How do you, how do you legislate things like this?
If you are caught talking to a driver in the car, then you get a ticket.
And, and if you're eating, then you get tickets.
I had a question.
And if you were.
I had a question today.
I had a question today, that while I was driving, I wanted to know what time it was.
So, I just inadvertently picked up my cell phone and looked at it.
Was I breaking, was I breaking the law by doing, because I wasn't texting, I wasn't using a cell phone.
I was looking at a clock, which is on, is it illegal then to look at your watch?
If it's not, then it should be, because it's horrible.
It gets ridiculous.
And you're going to kill everybody.
It gets ridiculous very quickly.
All right.
Okay, so that's pretty much our abbreviated look at what's going on in news.
Unless anybody has any other important items that have happened?
No?
Okay.
Did you see the priest that had, the priest that was requiring children to submit to a fingerprint reader in Poland?
Yes.
Yeah, I think I did see that story floating around someplace.
A priest and fingerprint.
That's, okay.
Interesting story here.
Hang on.
I just got to track it down.
All my stories are weird.
Do you have a copy, Bernie?
Yeah, I do.
I do.
There's a.
Yeah, please.
A Polish priest in Poland, obviously, installed an electronic reader in his church for school children to leave their fingerprints in order to monitor their attendance at mass, a Polish newspaper reported last week.
And apparently if they attend 200 masses, the children won't have to take some exam prior to their confirmation.
But I just, you know, the whole idea of walking into a church and having to put your finger in a fingerprint reader, it just seems really bizarre.
And I'm wondering how many more institutions are going to start requiring you to stick your finger or some other part of your body to be biometrically read to confirm who you are and where you are.
And it's just getting bizarre.
Well, yeah, it's getting bizarre, true.
But once it gets bizarre, it can stay bizarre and nobody will think anything of it in the future.
I mean, I consider it extremely bizarre that people have to go through metal detectors to get into schools.
And yet I'm in the minority in thinking that's strange.
Now, that's the norm.
One day maybe malls will be like that.
One day maybe your home will be like that.
Who knows?
We get used to these things and they become the way things are to us.
Yeah, like just talking about malls.
In some parts of upstate New York, on the weekends, people like under 18 in certain malls have to be escorted.
Really?
Yeah, I saw this in some malls near some relatives of mine near the area of Poughkeepsie, and I was dumbfounded.
Wow, that's something.
Voltaire?
It's probably certain that before fingerprint readers, stuff like that, there will be facial recognition, and that will be used way before fingerprint readers.
Oh, okay.
We are definitely moving into some strange times ahead.
And that's why we're here, to talk about the strange times and to be there for you, and that's why we need you to be there for us.
Now, we have something really incredible today that we're debuting, all right?
You know, we always try to come up with interesting things, and today we make history.
Every show in the past, at least as long as I can remember, what have we offered for everybody who calls in and pledges a certain amount of money?
Anybody know?
I do know, yes.
All right, what's the answer?
We've offered a stunning, or do we call it stunning?
Fetching.
Fetching.
Fetching.
No, you're wrong.
Fetching was the sweatshirts.
I'm so confused, but regardless, it's been amazing.
We've offered an off-the-hook T-shirt.
Right.
Well, I'm sorry to say we no longer have those T-shirts.
They're gone.
They're finished.
Canceled.
No, we don't have them anymore.
If you didn't get the shirt when we were offering it, well, that's it, you know?
It's done, history, finished.
And you can't buy them anywhere unless you buy them from somebody else who got them as a result of pledging.
But what we have done is come up with brand new shirts, brand new off-the-hook shirts.
Now, Rob T. Firefly, you are the designer of these shirts, is that right?
I am indeed.
You want to claim credit for this, right?
Yes, all the credit, yes.
Okay, now, the shirts are completely different than the previous ones, and there's a special added feature
that is going to make things even more thrilling for our listeners.
But first, tell us something about the design.
Well, it's a visually interesting design.
It's one that came straight from the mind of me, a strange place that is.
That is a strange place.
But, yeah, it's something interesting.
Our past shirts, while fetching or appealing or whatever they were, they weren't very iconoclastic.
I think I added a little bit of that to our shirts.
I think I've managed to take the brand of off-the-hook and bring it into the 21st century single-handedly.
Wow.
We've been stuck in the 20th century for quite some time.
Basically, you've built a bridge to the 21st century, you and President Clinton working together.
Yes, and we've redefined our core competencies.
None of this is helping people see what the shirt looks like, right?
No, it isn't.
First of all, it's a different color.
It's a black shirt.
It's a black shirt, but now it's blue, right?
Is blue the right color?
The print on the shirt is two colors.
There is white on the design, and there is sort of a turquoise, sort of a turquoise blue, or an aqua.
These two colors come together in a design, which, shall I describe it a little?
Yes, please do.
The design is based on a telephone, which itself is off-the-hook, if you see what I did there.
The phone itself is off-the-hook?
The phone itself is off-the-hook.
Wow.
Yes, and the keypad of the phone is replaced with the name of the show, off-the-hook.
Oh, instead of the numbers, it says off-the-hook?
Instead of the numbers.
Wait, are there enough?
It's 10.
It is 10.
It's exactly 10 letters.
You know, I thought of that, but then I figured we're hackers.
We can get past that.
No, that's good.
There are 10 buttons, right?
So that's perfect.
Well, there are actually, yeah.
Wow, it sort of wrote itself.
No, yeah.
All right, so we've got the touch-tone phone there.
We've got the touch-tone phone.
We've got some information on the bottom of the phone, which is 99.5 FM, WBAI, New York.
Nice place to have a radio station.
Yes.
And followed by 2600.com slash off-the-hook, which is our website.
And you're probably there now if you listen to us on the internet, and otherwise you're listening to us all over the radio.
Now, the cool thing about these shirts, in addition to them being a different color and having a totally different design and being really, I think, modern and cool for the 21st century.
I mean, it's hard to describe these things on the radio, but it really is very nice-looking.
It's a very good design.
Yeah, it is.
It's a great design.
The really cool thing, and this is something that we've never been able to do before.
Now, for the first time, we're able to offer different sizes.
We always would just give everybody an XL, but now we can give you any size you want.
All you have to do is call us at 212-209-2950, pledge $25 or more, and one of these shirts will be coming your way.
Wait, we're not even raising the price with the new design and the new sizes?
No, it's the same.
Wow, that's pretty good.
Yeah, we didn't advance that much in the 21st century where we raised the price.
Now, if you want to hold out and pledge for the other amazing item we're going to be offering, you'll get a shirt with that as well for a higher amount.
So it's up to you.
If you just want to pledge $25 and you know that's all you're going to pledge, call now, 212-209-2950, and pledge that amount,
and you'll be one of the first to get the brand-new shirt in whatever size you want, and that'll be pretty cool.
But we do have even more amazing things coming your way for those of you who want to pledge a little bit more.
One thing to point out is that you can't get the old shirts anymore, and who knows how long these will be around for.
They'll be around at least for this marathon.
For at least this marathon, so yeah, so call.
But yeah, you speak truth there because we didn't warn anybody that the other ones were going away.
We just pulled them.
We just stopped, and that's how we operate.
We just suddenly decide to do something, and we do it, and there's nothing you can do about it.
They're gone.
You'll never be able to get those shirts again.
Sorry, Bernie?
Rob, I wanted just to thank you for doing this fantastic design.
You emailed it to me and the other people on the show today, and I was just awed.
This is a really awesome, not to overuse a word, to use these.
I was really awed.
This is a fantastic design.
It really harkens back to the roots of Off the Hook, where it started out as a phone freak show,
but it's covering that and so much more now.
And I know you as a Phone Losers of America member.
Are you still a member?
We play around.
You can't ever be an ex-member.
Well, you know, it's a great design, and it really harkens to what this show is about,
communicating and telephones.
And I have to hand it to Emanuel for having the prescience and foresight 22 years ago
to come up with the triple entendre name, Off the Hook, for this show.
Which wasn't a very cool phrase back then either.
Now everybody says, hey, that's Off the Hook, but nobody says that.
Nobody said that back then, which is, I guess, why we never bothered to register the site.
So now there's all these other sites that have offthehook.com and .org.
But, yeah, whatever.
We're the first ones, I think, still.
212-209-2950 is the number to call to get one of these shirts, a pledge of $25 or more,
and keep WBAI on the air.
Yes, and also become part of the WBAI membership where you can vote for how the station goes
and just become a part of the madness.
It is madness, but it's a great kind of madness.
And it's kept us on the air for 50 years, so imagine that.
212-209-2950.
Now joining us on the phone right now is our special guest, Ed Piskor.
Are you there?
Hey, Emanuel.
Thanks for inviting me to the party.
Yeah, it's great to hear your voice again.
For those of you who may not remember or didn't listen the first time,
Ed is an artist who has drawn an amazing series of comics, comic books.
Well, comic books isn't the right phrase because these are heavy books.
I mean, I'm going to drop one just to let you hear what it sounds like.
That's heavy.
That's not like a little flabby, you know, paperback comic book.
No, this is real.
There's a lot of pages in here, and it's called WYSIWYG.
It's basically, how would you describe, Ed, in a sentence,
how would you describe the saga of WYSIWYG?
I guess in a sense I would simply just say that it's a fictional
slash truthful history of hacking, phone freaking,
and the saga of high technology,
exploring this idea with a solitary character or something like that.
I don't know.
Okay, that's a good sentence.
It's kind of a long sentence, but it definitely describes the basics of it.
And what has just happened is that Ed has published Volume 3 of WYSIWYG.
Previously, we were talking about the first two volumes.
Now there's a third volume, and this one is called Fugitive,
WYSIWYG Volume 3 Fugitive.
And, Marlon, do you want to tell us something about what Fugitive is about?
Well, in this volume, the character,
after learning a bunch of verboten information about phone freaking and hacking,
sort of landed him in a little bit of trouble
just because of his enthusiastic ways kind of got the better of him.
And the volume starts off, he's on the run,
and using this information that he's acquired
to basically stay one step ahead of the authorities.
Okay.
And the first two volumes, what were the names of the first two volumes?
The first volume was Freak, and Volume 2 was Hacker.
Okay.
And I'm thumbing through it now.
Of course, the other interesting thing about this volume is that
if you look at it, you'll see some faces that look somewhat familiar.
There's someone in there that supposedly looks like me.
There are people in there that look like other members of the hacker community.
And, of course, there's a character there
that I think is representative of Kevin Mitnick and Bernie S
and various other people. Is that correct?
Yeah, with that one character, Boingsump is his name,
I decided to cram the stories of Kevin Mitnick, Polson, FiberOptic, Bernie S,
all into this one character.
It just sort of made sense with all the research that I did
and listening to Off The Hook over the years.
A lot of these guys share a lot of the same traits, I would say.
And it just yielded a pretty interesting story
if you took all of their life experience and crammed them into one character.
It's an incredible saga.
I'm looking at parts of it now and I'm at the section where
I think his name is Kevin.
This is The Fugitive.
And he's basically writing a letter to a TV producer.
Is this correct?
Right, yeah.
It's sort of an homage to when Kevin Polson was on Unsolved Mysteries
and it's written that he sent a letter to an executive
just sort of pleading his case
and just telling the executives how unhelpful it would be to his case
to just sort of sensationalize his plight.
So this is based on the Kevin Polson story,
not the Kevin Mitnick story then, as far as this adventure.
Right, that particular sequence.
Okay, so in this panel that I'm looking at now,
he basically looks like he's actually physically getting ill.
I won't go into detail about that, but that's an interesting picture there.
Very well done.
And over his head is the letter.
Dear Theodore, it has come to my attention via huge commercial promotion
that you plan on producing a show about me.
I'm trying to appeal to you as a human being,
and I ask you to cease production on this episode of American Fugitives.
There's a shot of him basically screaming in the room that he's in,
screaming out of frustration.
In the next shot, he looks like he's kicking a flower vase off of a table.
Very agile, this guy.
Everything in the media about me so far has been padded with lies and falsehoods.
I'm sure that your show will also skew this way,
and the popularity of your broadcast could be extremely dangerous to me.
Then the next panel shows him red-faced with rage,
writing this letter with some kind of a soda next to him.
I'm not talking about being harmful to my freedom,
and even when I no longer decide to hide this incorrect information,
your show will make it very hard for me to receive a fair trial.
That definitely brings back memories of when we were fighting the takedown people
who were putting out a film about Kevin Mitnick while he was still in prison,
and how he was unable to basically refute what was being said about him.
It's just amazing how fiction can follow fact in certain situations.
That whole saga was so incredibly sad to me,
and I encourage any listeners who are listening over the radio or on the Internet,
go check out your archives.
I'm not sure exactly which particular years those episodes took place,
but it's worth listening to in a big way.
The government, the authorities were really brainless about how to prosecute such people.
It was frankly pretty heartbreaking to know that Mitnick had to sort of
basically continue to break laws just to maintain his freedom.
It's sort of like a self-preservation kind of instinct.
It was really powerful stuff. It was moving, actually.
It definitely brings back a lot of memories.
I think what your story here does is capture that in a fictional way,
but with enough similarities to really get the spirit of it all.
You have this heartbreaking tale of somebody trying to evade the authorities.
Also, if you look at the first two volumes, you see how it got to this stage in the first place.
What we're offering tonight, for those of you who are into this kind of thing,
and it really is pretty incredible,
the latest edition, the latest volume of WYSIWYG, Volume 3, Fugitive,
autographed by Ed Piskor himself for a pledge of $75 to 212-209-2950.
You also get the brand-new off-the-hook t-shirt that Rob T. Firefly has designed.
Two amazing brand-new things for a pledge of $75 to 212-209-2950.
Not just two amazing brand-new things, two amazing brand-new works of art.
These are really something that you'll want to look at.
Yeah, we're working with artists here, no question about that.
Now, if you're somewhat late to the game, or if this is just something you don't have,
and you really want to complete your collection, we're offering all three volumes of WYSIWYG.
Volume 1, which was... Freak is Volume 1, right?
Yep.
And Hack is Volume 2, or is it Hacker?
Hacker.
Hacker is Volume 2, and Volume 3 is Fugitive.
We're offering all three of those, also autographed, a lot of signing for you to do,
for a pledge of $125 to 212-209-2950.
And again, you get the t-shirt with that as well.
So those are our packages for tonight.
What we want to see is a veritable explosion of phone activity down there in the tally room.
212-209-2950.
A package like this only comes along once per pledge drive,
and this is the only time we're going to be offering this.
So please let people know.
And if this is something that you're interested in, or if you just want to support the radio station,
please give us a call now, 212-209-2950.
We accept credit cards, and we accept all kinds of other things like checks and cash and things like that.
Rob?
I've said it before about these books.
I'll say it again.
Ed Piskor writes these as well as draws them, and his art style is awesome.
It's just he manages to bring so much life to these characters.
And also the writing is wonderful.
He stays true to the stories that this is based on.
So hackers, people who are familiar with these stories, with this culture, who are looking for these things will get it.
But it's also so accessible to people who might not be as familiar with it.
And these books have become the first thing that I hand to people,
among the first things that I hand to people who want to know more about this whole hacker community that I'm involved with.
And it's just really great.
This is a great gift for someone who you might know who might not know so much about what you're into and might want to learn more.
212-209-2950 is the phone number.
We have one call on the line.
Please join that one call.
We should have about six or seven, I think, at this point because this is an incredible deal.
And it's not something that you'll see offered elsewhere.
So you get all three autographed books plus the T-shirt for $125?
Yeah.
And if you just want the most recent one for $75, you'll get volume three, Fugitive.
And you'll also get the T-shirt.
Again, if you just want the T-shirt, $25 pledge will do that as well.
The important thing, though, is that you get the radio station.
You keep us going.
And that's what it's all about is keeping voices like this on the radio, keeping ideas like this, giving them a place to exchange information.
212-209-2950.
We have a special guest who has just joined us in the studio.
Yeah.
Remember this guy, Ken Gale, who used to host a show about comic books on this very radio station?
I used to interview writers and artists in the field.
I did that from 93 until 2007, really.
Wow.
So you're familiar with comic books of all sorts.
Yeah.
Well, I did all eras, all styles.
And one of the things about comics is that you have the written language, which is absolutely wonderful.
And there's so much you can do with the written language.
And then there's so much you can do with pictures, especially for humans who are visual animals.
When you combine the two things and the words and pictures are working together as a team, I don't think there's a better art form that we've ever invented.
I'll put it ahead of film or either of the two things that make it up.
Wow.
It's an American art form.
It started in the U.S. in 1892 in Chicago.
Really?
That's where it started?
1892 in Chicago?
Yeah.
That's where the first newspaper comic strip section started.
And then it started in New York in 1895 and then went crazy.
There was, like, one-off.
Like, people would do words and pictures for one story, and then they wouldn't do it anymore.
Nobody thought of doing it as a regular thing.
And there is so much you can do with it.
I'm sure the writer-artist at WYSIWYG, which is – it makes it special because a lot of comic books, you have one person writing it, one person drawing it.
So they have to interpret each other's thoughts.
Whereas if the same person is writing and drawing, you don't have to interpret the thoughts because you know what the thoughts are.
And I guess one of my questions is, Ed, do you put words to pictures or do you think of the images and then put words and dialogue to them?
I typically just come up with a situation, and I guess I start off visualizing the scenario.
And the words kind of come last, and I try to make them come off as natural as possible.
Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
But I'm certainly a more visual thinker initially than – just a regular author, I guess.
You've got a lot of variety of styles working together.
It's a great synthesis of influences.
I'm seeing manga. I'm seeing Sherry Flanagan influence here.
I'm seeing a lot of the classic underground artists.
There's a lot of – I would say you've been reading comics a long time, and you've been sort of fomenting in your head all these different art styles.
Sure, yeah.
Yeah, like most cartoonists, just been into the whole scheme my entire life, basically.
It's amazing to see Ken analyze this.
This is something that I've never actually witnessed before, but you really know your material here.
Well, one of the things that you look for – I've never heard of this until tonight, all right?
And I'm looking at it for the first time as I talk about it right now.
And a lot of new artists, you look at it, and it's clearly, oh, this person is a fan of, and you can name one or two artists.
Whereas with Ed, he's clearly a fan of lots and lots of artists.
And so the art doesn't look like it's a ripoff or a swipe of any one person because you look through it.
And I can see the way you put – you design the black backgrounds and things like that.
So there's Milkeniff in your background somewhere or somebody influenced Milkeniff.
I like it when people combine things because a lot of people doing comics, they're sort of going, well, this is what sells or this is what I like.
So I'm going to do the same thing.
And it's like, well, if you're going to do what somebody else did, who needs you?
Your art style is a combination of what you're into and the life you've led.
And all of those different things should show on the paper.
And it's kind of neat that I don't have to hold back anything like that because there's a lot on the paper.
You can get your own volume by calling 212-209-2950.
The phone lines are wide open now.
So please show your support.
$75, you'll get the latest volume of WYSIWYG.
The Fugitive volume for $125, you'll get all three volumes.
And everybody who calls in and pledges $25 and more gets the brand new off-the-hook T-shirt.
Brand new, different sizes, different color, different design.
212-209-2950.
You make it sound so exciting when you say the phone lines are open.
But what it means is the phone lines are open.
The radio station is going to be closed.
We need people to call 212-209-2950 and pledge and keep us on the air, keep WBII on the air.
And in addition, you can have all three volumes of WYSIWYG.
You can have just the third volume.
And you get the T-shirt.
It's just so much stuff.
There's one really interesting side note to all of this.
And that's that this particular radio show is what inspired Ed to do this in the first place.
So in a sense, those of you who have called in to help support the radio station have made this entire work possible in the first place.
Am I exaggerating that, Ed?
I'll co-sign that one, man, for sure.
I miss making you feel terrific, Emmanuel.
I miss making you feel terrific to inspire art like this.
I mean we all obviously play a part in this, but it shows what happens when we get our heads together on something.
We are telling interesting stories.
We are telling interesting stories.
Go ahead, Bernie.
I just want to say this is really a remarkable piece of artistic synergy where Ed Biscar has been listening to Off the Hook for several years and was so inspired by stories.
Kevin Nicknick, My Own Case, and other really interesting hacker sagas.
So inspired to start writing graphic novels about them.
And this series is pretty remarkable.
I just started reading book three, Fugitive, Ed.
And you did some really good research on this.
And you didn't just grab stuff off of Off the Hook.
You really did your research.
I was really impressed.
There's a lot of really hard-hitting, accurate stuff about what a hacker would actually do in this sort of situation or that situation.
And it's a fascinating reader to someone who's been in the hacker scene for years over someone who hasn't been in the hacker scene at all.
Just to look into the hacker mindset, what this is all about.
But I think this is a remarkable group of people we have on tonight.
We have Ken there commenting on the artistic value of these comics.
And these aren't just like comic books you find at a comic store, which are like some flimsy things.
As you pointed out, these are really full graphic novels that I was really impressed with.
And it really documents what this show is all about.
So I encourage readers who are interested in this saga and this whole genre of the hacker world and technology and getting in trouble with the authorities to call 212-290-2950.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Wrong number.
212-209-2950.
Don't call those other people.
I'm a little dyslexic tonight.
209-2950.
Thank you.
And we have two calls on the line now, which is great.
But we need really like five or six calls if we're going to do Respectably tonight.
And we do need to do Respectably to keep this place where it needs to be.
The last few fundraisers have been a big improvement over what's happened before then.
And the station is improving.
If you listen to some of the programming that's been going on, some really good things on the air at different times of the week.
You just have to tune in and explore.
It's like an amazing land to just kind of wander around and find the cool parts and learn from those.
The whole place is made possible by people like you who call in and pledge for whatever it is that we're offering at the time.
Now, the WYSIWYG series is something that we're offering only tonight.
It's unique.
It's different.
And it's made possible by people like you and the whole creative process.
212-209-2950.
I see four calls on the line.
There's no ISBN number, which means it's not going to be in bookstores.
Yeah, I guess that's what it means, eh?
Yeah, because they're not going to order something that doesn't have an ISBN number for whatever reason they have for doing that.
So I would say that if you're intrigued about this, don't go, well, I'll find it somewhere else because you probably won't find it anywhere else.
I mean, Ken, you know something about history of comic books and graphic novels.
Things go out of print.
They're hard to find.
I don't want to sound depressing here, but I'm just saying that this is new.
This is fresh.
These are good ideas and interesting people and a great story, and it's something that you really should be a part of if you're interested in what we're talking about.
Independent publishing is difficult because so many stores order the minimum that they think they can sell.
If they think they can sell somewhere between three and 100, they'll order three because they're afraid that they'll get stuck with them or something like that.
And that's why it's so hard to find the really good graphic novels because, of course, the good ones are going to sell way over that three.
And people are going to search for them.
They're going to talk about them.
Those of you listening to Off the Hook right now who do get this are going to want to talk about it on later episodes.
And now everybody's going to go, oh, man, I wish I could get that, and it's going to be too late.
And you don't want to be the person saying, oh, it's too late.
You want to be the person boasting, I have one, and you don't.
Yeah, because that's what we're all about is boasting to each other and saying we've got something that you don't have.
You hit that nail on the head with that hacker community there.
But seriously, we have six calls on the line, which is great.
Is that seven?
Wow, okay.
So people understand the value of this, and I'm glad to see that.
Most importantly, though, you're keeping the radio station going, and you're getting something really cool as a result of that, not just the radio station, not just the radio show.
You're getting WYSIWYG Volume 3 or Volume 1 through 3 and a brand-new, I keep saying that, off-the-hook shirt, which you cannot get through 2600 or anywhere else except by donating to the radio station.
Brand-new design, brand-new size scheme, all that kind of thing.
But you've got to call now, 212-209-2950.
You know, Ken, I keep looking up at the calculator.
It says zero, but I realize you're the person.
Yes, I'm the person who will be putting those numbers there.
So you're here, so you can't be updating the calculator.
So it looks like we're doing badly, but we might be doing well.
I guess we'll find out later.
Seven calls is a good sign.
It is a good sign.
It's a good sign.
But they could all be saying, go back to Cuba.
We don't know.
I'm sure not all seven of them.
One of them, maybe.
I don't know.
That guy's got a lot of phones.
Go ahead, Rob.
And yeah, talking about this work of art as an independent work, everything between these covers is at Piscor.
There's no ads in here, nothing like that.
And that's really reflected in this station.
We don't have commercials.
We don't tell you what brand of soft drinks to buy or anything like that.
Our only source of income is this now, and you, basically.
It's you that keeps us going.
Yeah, it's not Exxon.
It's not ExxonMobil.
It's not Shell Oil or religious organizations or anything like that.
It's basically you.
You're the people that keep the radio station on the air.
Mike?
People sometimes say to us, you know, why do you need WBAI?
It seems really expensive.
Why don't you just make a podcast?
But I think that having Ken here really reinforces why we need this radio station because it builds a community of people who are knowledgeable about all kinds of things.
You know, we didn't plan to have Ken on.
We were here.
We were talking to Ed, and we said, oh, who knows about comic books?
Ken Gill.
Oh, there he is right there.
And that can't happen unless we keep WBAI on the air.
Call us now, 212-209-2950.
I have a horrifying scenario.
Okay.
Let's say that you guys were on commercial radio and trying to do what you're doing.
The first thing that would happen was Microsoft or Intel or somebody would buy commercial time, talk to the program director, and say, get rid of all the guys who are doing this show now.
We don't like what they're saying.
Yeah.
You know, I think we have a horrible scenario right now because I see phones ringing that aren't being answered.
I think we don't have enough people.
I better get back there and answer them.
I hate to kick you because it's a fascinating discussion.
And if you're calling and it's not being answered, please continue to call because we are sending people down there to deal with the overflow.
And please update that calculator, too, so we feel better about that.
But thanks, Ken.
That's Ken Gill, used to host Nuff Said, a program about comic books and the culture and all kinds of fascinating things.
It really is amazing what you learn by listening to this radio station and just by talking to creative people like Ed Pitzker, who created the whole WYSIWYG series.
And, Ed, you should be glad that the response seems to be fairly strong.
And I think people appreciate what it is you're doing and hope that you continue to do things like this.
Cool.
My ego will allow me to survive another day then.
And hopefully the radio station, too.
Voltaire.
It should be said that WBAI is more than just a radio station that broadcasts on the FM dial.
I'm sure that a lot of our listeners only listen as a podcast.
I have to admit when I listen to WBAI shows, I listen to quite a few.
But I normally listen to them as podcasts because I'm not in the car able to listen to them live.
But you live in the New York area, so you can listen to them live.
Yes, I can.
And I do quite a lot when I drive.
Right.
Radios work inside houses, too.
And you can listen even if you're in a different part of the world live by streaming with marvelous technology.
The greatest part is that even if we were just an internet radio station and we didn't broadcast on the FM dial,
we still have all this great set of expensive equipment.
It's not the most cutting edge, but it's still much better than anything most podcasters get.
Of course.
We have to keep it working.
Right now we have a whole bunch of microphones.
I'm sorry yours didn't work before, but that does happen sometimes.
But we have a huge board here that we can do all kinds of marvelous things with and tie together connections from all around the world,
talk to people remotely.
And, yeah, obviously to have office space in New York and just to keep it all going, it's an expensive proposition.
But the most amazing thing to me is that people can just turn on their radios and find us, not by knowing our address,
not by having a URL on their computer they have to type in, just by tuning a dial.
That means so much because people still listen to radio.
Radio is vital.
Radio is so important to our culture, more so than any podcast or satellite system.
Radio is just very basic.
It's very local.
But in our case, it's also very worldly.
And BAI has an amazing history with that.
We have nine calls on the line, which is great.
Actually, ten calls now.
212-209-2950.
So please keep those calls coming in.
Again, we're offering for a pledge of $25 the brand-new off-the-hook T-shirt designed by Rob T. Firefly,
$75 the newest edition of WYSIWYG, the graphic novel we're talking about, authored by Ed Piskor and also illustrated by him,
all about the hacker world and the culture.
And you'll see some familiar faces in there as well.
If you want all the volumes, a pledge of $125 will get you all the volumes autographed along with the off-the-hook T-shirt.
212-209-2950.
Mike?
Ed, I wanted to ask you.
I understand you're working on the next volume, Volume 4.
Yes, sir.
So maybe you want to give our audience a preview, what they'll see in there.
Well, the fourth and final volume is going to be called Inmate.
Actually, Bernie S. and I, we need to get together and just talk about his experience a little bit when he was in jail.
And the volume pretty much is going to focus on what life inside of prison must be like for a hacker
who isn't necessarily a 300-pound murderer or rapist or something like that.
What's the experience going to be like for somebody like that?
I'm going to get to work on that pretty soon after Bernie and I talk a bit about what life was like for him in prison.
Can you point to a particular, I guess, segment of the current volume, the one that we're offering here tonight, Fugitive,
that was a challenge for you to write, something that was a particularly interesting story perhaps that you focused on?
There's a segment in there on how to create a false identity.
And I'm not sure if that information is accurate.
As far as I can tell, it at least was the correct information back in the early 90s.
I don't know if these holes were filled or whatever.
It was pretty tough writing that particular segment, but I wanted to include that because it sort of reminded me,
back in the 50s there was this book called Seduction of the Innocent.
Whenever comics were extremely popular, this guy Frederick Wertham, he had a crusade against comics,
just telling people that we're going to breed maniacs if kids keep breeding this stuff.
He pointed out to this particular missive where somebody hijacked an airplane
and even took the plane to the air by using a comic book.
It was sort of like his template for hijacking the plane.
So I just wanted to include some creepy, verboten, subversive information in this volume.
But I wouldn't necessarily endorse using that information unless you're extremely desperate.
Hey, Ed.
Yeah.
It's funny that you mention that because when I said you really did your research earlier on the show tonight,
I was referring to that particular section of WYSIWYG Volume 3, Fugitive,
because I was really impressed.
You really did your homework.
You did your research on it.
This is what people have actually used, these techniques, to forge an alternate identity.
So kudos to you, man.
You did a great job with this.
And the book is just full of really good research and good coverage
and sort of a satirical view of the world and technology and the hackers and free community.
I just want to talk to our listeners for a second and say,
listeners, if you support independent media, that's what we're talking about tonight.
Not just WBAI, but independent artists and writers like Ed Piskor are a source of independent media.
As Ken pointed out, these books don't have an ISBN number.
You can just walk into a bookstore and buy these.
We are really honored to be one of the big inspirations to Ed Piskor for this series of graphic novels, WYSIWYG.
And WBAI is a really remarkable source of independent media.
So I encourage our listeners to call, support independent media, and get some really nice swag shipped to your home, too.
212-209-2950.
$25 you get the fantastic new off-the-hook T-shirt that Rob designed.
Very cool design.
I can't wait to get mine.
For $75, you get volume 3 of the WYSIWYG series, Fugitive, by Ed Piskor, plus the off-the-hook T-shirt.
And for $125, you get volumes 1 through 3 of WYSIWYG, all autographed by Ed Piskor himself and the off-the-hook T-shirt.
Please, listeners, call 212-209-2950.
Support independent media.
Support WBAI.
Support artists like Ed Piskor.
It's really a worthy cause.
And I'm told we just broke the 1,000 mark, which is great.
We need to keep going, keep that motion, momentum going.
212-209-2950.
Three calls on the line right now, which means we have space for another four or five.
212-209-2950.
Now, Ed, a slight bit of concern here.
You talked about how there's a section in there about getting a fake identity.
Could this book perhaps be used by our nation's children as basically a way of committing crimes, of doing all kinds of horrible things that their parents have nightmares about?
Wow.
I thought I put it in there just to be cool, man, but now you're freaking me out.
Well, that's another selling point, then.
That's a possible tool, then, to use for all kinds of mischievous behavior.
It's just something that's entertaining and educational at the same time.
Whizzy Wig Volume 3, amazing.
212-209-2950.
Join us.
Three calls on the line.
Get your autographed copy of the latest volume for a pledge of $75 plus the brand-new off-the-hook T-shirt in your choice of size for $125.
Get all the volumes and your brand-new T-shirt as well for $25.
Just the T-shirt, all pledges $25 and above.
Get the T-shirt.
212-209-2950.
We have people to thank.
Red Hat, go ahead.
All right.
I was just down in the tally room.
What's it like?
It's crazy down there, isn't it?
It's crazy.
Join the craziness.
Call 212-209-2950.
Make it more crazy.
It's a fire sale.
Anyway, we'd like to thank Michael from Chicago.
We also want to thank Faith, who is from Baldwin, New York.
And we'd like to thank Barbara from Hempstead, New York.
Raymond from New York, New York.
We want to thank Finn from Long Island City.
I know Finn.
Finn?
Wow.
Finn actually is the guy who follows me on the other radio station on WUSB.
Finn, how are you doing?
Well, Finn wants this radio station, WBAI, to stay on the air.
He didn't even ask for a premium.
Isn't it amazing that people from other radio stations are calling in to support this radio station?
And I hope people from this radio station call in to support that radio station.
We all keep each other going, you know?
212-209-2950.
More people to thank.
Adam from Holmdel, New Jersey.
I think I skipped you.
We'd like to thank Weston from Carthage, Missouri.
We want to thank Gerald from Jamaica.
Jamaica, New York.
Not the island.
We'd like to thank Michael from Freeport, New York.
Not the island.
All right.
And you had the last one, I think.
And we'd also like to thank Tom from New York, New York.
Okay.
Thank you.
And I'm a bit surprised there's no West Coast support coming in.
Nothing from overseas.
What's wrong with Canada?
Where are you guys?
212-209-2950.
Do we even have New Jersey?
I only grabbed what was filled out already.
Okay.
Yeah, there's a lot of mayhem going on down there.
But wait.
We didn't even have New Jersey.
If you're calling from New Jersey—
We did have New Jersey.
Did we?
Yeah.
Oh.
Well, okay.
Let's not have a court case about it.
Well, we didn't have enough New Jersey.
If you're calling from New Jersey and you haven't pledged yet, now's the time.
212-209-2950.
Yeah.
No, we only have a couple minutes left.
And again, this is only being offered up to the top of the hour.
After we're off the air, this is no longer a package that's being offered during this
fundraiser.
So to run it over one more time, the brand new graphic novel that just came out, Volume
3 of WYSIWYG, Stories of the Hacker Underground, done in an incredible style, incredible stories.
It's yours, autographed by the author, Ed Piskor, who joins us tonight for a pledge
of $75.
212-209-2950.
With that $75 pledge, you get a brand new, just brand new designed off-the-hook T-shirt,
designed by Rob T. Firefly, not yet worn by anybody because it has not yet been made.
We have the design and the shirts are going to start getting made this week.
And in the size of your choice.
We never offered sizes before.
Now we're offering sizes.
New feature.
So if you already have an off-the-hook T-shirt, well, now you can have one that fits, or you
can have one with a different design, whatever you choose.
212-209-2950.
If you want everything, if you want all the WYSIWYGs, Volume 1, 2, and 3, and the new
T-shirt, a pledge of $125 will cover that.
212-209-2950.
Six calls on the line.
Wow, this is incredible.
Ed, we're almost running out of time, but how can people find out more about your work
if they want to?
They can just do a Google search on my name, Ed Piskor, P-I-S-K-O-R, and they'll find some
info.
Yeah, it's great having you, and we'll see you at HOPE, I presume, right?
I'm looking forward to it.
Okay, the next HOPE taking place down in the Hotel Pennsylvania here in New York City.
And go to www.hope.net for information on pre-registration, which is now open for that
amazing conference taking place July 16, 17, 18, right?
I keep getting the dates confused.
I have another conference I have to be at.
I hope I'm able to make this one, but yeah.
Go ahead, Rob.
And just to add really quickly, this book was very recently released, but it's already
getting rave reviews.
I know our friend Cory Doctorow from Boing Boing enjoyed it very much, posted a very
good review, and it seems to be getting a really good reaction.
He's not easy to please, Cory, you know?
Yeah, he doesn't give compliments lightly.
So that's definitely a feather in your cap there.
Ed, thank you so much for both doing this, for coming on tonight, for offering this to
our listeners.
And I hope you continue with all kinds of other creative and inspirational things.
Thanks for having me.
It was a real pleasure to talk to you guys tonight.
All right.
And one more time, 212-209-2950 is our phone number.
Please call in, show your support, get the amazing graphic novels.
You won't be sorry, and you'll have an incredible radio station being preserved as a result
of that.
212-209-2950.
It's Emanuel for Off The Hook.
We'll see you next week.
We bought it to help with your homework.
We bought it to help with your homework.
And the household accounts, if your dad ever works it all out.
Lunchtime's in the library, writing down the pipes and beats, copying an access code.
Get a taste for home taping, fetishist of map making.
Rotten leaves and rubber keys, random unenlightened screams.
Spent five minutes, fingers crossed, hoping not to witness the terror of our tape-loading error.
We bought it to help with your homework.
We bought it to help with your homework.
And the household accounts, if your dad ever works it all out.
ZX Spectrum 81, Dragon Vic and Oric One, Commodore 64, Amstrad and an Athorn Electron.
Cheaper BBC Micro.
Jesser, Willy, Slade and Wolf, Muzzlebee, Knight and a Wolf, Dorsal, Transam and Tatak.
And of course Manic Miner, The Hobbit and Nightlore and Elite.
It's made a generation who can code above all this for proper consoles.
Who all know that the games you get today, well they might be very flash.
But they'll never beat the thrill of getting through Jetpack.
Oh, hey, hey, 16K, what does that get you today?
You need more than that for a letter.
Old-school RAM packs are much better.
Personal computer games, yours sincerely, 16K.
Kingston Competition Pro, Crash and Curse of Kingston, Golden Dixons.
And for the Saturday stuff with loops that don't end.
We bought it to help with your homework.
We bought it to help with your homework.
And the household account, if you don't ever, works it all out.
Hey, hey, 16K, what does that get you today?
You need more than that for a letter.
Old-school RAM packs are much better.
Hey, hey, 16K, what does that get you today?
You need more than that for a letter.
Old-school RAM packs are much better.