And our guest today is Dr. Gwen Scott, a naturopathic doctor and former CNN news anchor.
Dr. Scott is a master herbalist who has...
No, I don't think so. Not right now.
This machine, I don't get this machine.
It doesn't do what I want it to do.
I'm sorry. But I'm sure I'm sure you'll hear that at some point.
This is WBAI New York.
It's seven o'clock.
Time for an exciting action-packed edition of Off the Hook.
I cut myself while shaving.
Now I can't make a cough.
We couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would.
Bundledly boned for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bundledly boned!
And give me February.
The program is Off the Hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Mike.
Hi there. Voltaire.
Wait a minute. Why is your mic never working, Voltaire?
I don't understand.
You sit a different chair every week and you just bring the non-working
mic thing with you.
Got to try now.
Uh, try again.
There you go. All right. Good.
Hi. And Jim.
Hello.
Jim's mic is always working.
You can learn a thing or two from him.
And Bernie down in Philadelphia.
Greetings from Philadelphia.
And the microphone on your cellular phone seems to be working just fine.
Great. All right.
And Redhack has just burst through the door.
Sorry, I got stuck downstairs.
Yeah, Redhack, we need you to go down the hall and kick some ass
because as our official ass kicker on this show,
because we're just trying to get the whole premium situation sorted out
so that we can offer things.
So I want to offer really cool things tonight,
but we have to make sure that's in the computer.
This is a day for computers to foul up, apparently,
because we all fell off the list.
We couldn't get into the building.
We couldn't get into the I mean, we got here with just a few minutes left.
I'm sorry. What's up, Bernie?
I said, oh, that's awful.
It is awful.
Well, you know, we can't call you or you can't call us.
We won't be here to pick up.
Also, it's raining.
I know it's raining.
I know I was outside before this had to come in out of the rain
to be told I wasn't allowed in the building
because the computer expired us for some reason,
even though we this never happened to us before.
You know, I have to ask.
And this is not about the building. It's not about the AI.
It's about it's about us.
It's about human beings in America and how we somehow convinced ourselves
that having a list of names to come into a building somehow makes us secure.
How does that exactly make us secure? It doesn't.
I mean, if you're going to blow up a building, you can identify yourself.
People are going to find out who you are anyway.
It doesn't do anything.
I mean, everyone knows that terrorists don't have ID cards
and they certainly don't know how to make them.
They don't know they it's it's just completely impossible
if you're a terrorist to obtain an ID card.
That's what's keeping us safe. Yes.
You know, at some point we just we just sort of convince ourselves
that we need to hand over the liquids to the TSA
and we need to put our names on some kind of a list.
And we need to report anybody who who spends too much time
talking to people that are different from like, for instance,
I saw a story come by today and have time to print it out.
But there's some kind of law somewhere that says
teachers can't be friends with students on Facebook.
Now, what's that all about?
Yeah, I saw that headline as well.
So we're so suspicious now that if a teacher befriends a student
on a social networking site, they're up to something.
They must be a pedophile. Right.
What else could they possibly be?
And we convince ourselves of these things
and it becomes ingrained in our in our nature.
And that's why when when we look at a country like Norway
dealing with a horrible tragedy and an act of violence,
we can't understand how they could possibly deal with it this way,
where they're not clamping down and filling everybody with fear
and revenge and more violence and things like that.
We just don't understand it.
And it's a real shame because I think I think we could learn a lot
from from that kind of reaction. Yes, Bernie. Go ahead.
One of the things that struck me when I read this story is that
maybe the people that are making these rules don't even know
what a Facebook friend is, as opposed to what an actual friend is.
I think a lot of teachers are discouraged from actually being friends
of their students, personal friends, and should really be taking a,
you know, a more, you know, authoritative role as their educator.
But on Facebook, a friend is not a real friend.
It's just somebody who clicked, you know, you just click something.
That doesn't make you their friend.
Well, you know, some of us, it's all we got.
I actually saw an interesting piece by someone
who they had three birthdays in a month on Facebook,
and they wanted to see how many people would continue to wish them a happy.
They kept changing their birthday. You can do that.
Yeah, you can do that on Google.
You know, you can't change your damn birthday.
I accidentally created a fake user and they were under 18
and they didn't allow Google Plus to work.
But they don't tell you that when they ask for your birthday.
So anyway, is that a crime to create a fake user?
I'm sorry if it's under 18 and you're friends with it, then, yeah,
I like to use the word it. Yes.
But but people kept wishing them happy birthday and some people more
more than once, even though the birthdays were only several days apart.
Yeah. You know, I tried that scam once, I think, at Friendly's
and they didn't they didn't have it.
So you went in every day and told them it was your birthday.
I should have gone to a different one, shouldn't I?
You live and you learn.
Well, I can only sing so many times.
But yeah, I don't know.
This this whole security mess is it's got me in a bad mood.
And a lot of us are going to be traveling in the next couple of weeks.
Now, Mike, you're going to be at the CCC camp, right? Yes.
And what other places are you heading, if any?
After I go to the CCC camp, I'll be in Iceland.
Just to come back or to actually get off the plane, get off the plane.
You walk around and apparently there's a country there.
There is a country there.
And I, you know, I keep wanting to see it.
But every time I land there, I have to get on another plane.
It's only a transfer.
Well, I look forward to learn forward to learning more about it.
OK, that's great.
And Red Hat, how about you?
I am going to the camp and then Prague and Munich.
OK, cool.
Jens, in your car, where are you going?
We're talking to Jens who's driving in his car.
We could call him on the telephone.
You can't hear him if you're listening on the radio, but he hears us.
OK, he's going to Germany and also.
Yeah, I'm not sure where he's going.
I think he's just flying back.
Yeah. All right.
And actually, I'm heading over to Poland, Belarus and Ukraine.
You know, I saw that's going to be fine.
I saw your tweet or something about getting your visas in order,
and I got suddenly very concerned and had to look up and make sure
that the countries I was traveling to didn't require visas.
But they're all in the EU.
Well, there's only two.
Belarus is the only country in in that part of Europe
where you need a visa or an invitation to come.
And you get an invitation by having a travel agency make a reservation
at a hotel and collect a fee for doing that.
And then you basically submit your paperwork to the Belarus
embassy or consulate and they take a week and you don't have your password
for a week.
And it comes back with a big sticker taking up an entire page,
which is your visa that allows you into that country.
And don't try going into the country without that because you will not get in.
Yeah, I mean, I was I was fairly certain being is that the countries
that I was going to are all in the EU.
But I still got concerned for a moment because I hadn't even thought to check.
Yeah. I've been to Belarus twice before, though.
It's Europe's last dictatorship.
And I'm very proud of this fact,
because dictatorships are hard to run these days with all the Internet
thing going on. I'm sorry.
I said, don't tell that to Hungary.
Hungary is a dictatorship.
It's becoming a dictatorship. Is it now? Yes.
I thought Italy was coming first, but OK, well, I'm sure
competition will be will be ramped up pretty soon.
But I've been there twice before.
And I just like to see the differences in the various times.
First time I went there, it was really kind of grim.
Second time I saw signs of life and rebellion and things like that.
I'm very curious what's going to be like this time.
So we'll we'll report back.
I'm also making a stop in Czech Republic on the way back,
which is going to be fun.
That's always a good place to go.
But mostly it's about CCC, the chaos communication camp,
which takes place every four years.
Last one was in 2007.
We're going to be doing a show from there.
I guess it's a week from today.
We'll be doing a show from a makeshift studio out there on the campground.
We could do better than makeshift if we want.
Yeah, they have everything there.
It's probably got better equipment than we have here.
We're not going to do it from a phone at the registration desk.
No, no. This time we're going to have real radio.
It's it's amazing.
I think there's competing radio stations now at the camp
and competing phone networks and things like that.
It's it's simply incredible.
Bernie, I think I'll pass you, Bernie.
Where are you? Where are you off to?
Oh, well, I'm wondering if you and you there in the studio
and our listeners could help me out here.
I am going to be acquiring a Eurorail pass
when I get to Germany,
and which is good for three countries.
Germany has to be one of them, obviously,
because I need to travel to Germany so I can get to pick two other countries.
They have to be they have to border Germany.
OK, so that limits my choices.
Well, couldn't they border each other?
They have to border Germany.
Like, couldn't you go into one country and then the next country and back?
You know, that's a very good.
They know that I'll have to bring that up because I was talking with someone.
They said I had to border Germany,
but it makes perfect sense that they could be contiguous.
Around 60 years ago, you would have had a much better time of getting further
because the borders were just constantly expanding.
But now it's it's it's a little tougher.
I would you know, I like the Czech Republic so much.
I would recommend that.
I have been to Prague and it's magical.
Yeah, that's that's what everyone tells me.
So I'm really looking forward to that.
You're going to hate it.
Yeah, I'm going to go down there.
Everyone built it up so much.
Yeah, it's all a big joke.
As radio people, I recommend you climb to the top of a
there's a hill there with this big radio TV broadcasting tower
with these amazing sculptures of people climbing up the tower.
Laszlo and I climbed up this hill and we found this tower
and just had to explore it.
They have a nice little
building at the bottom of it.
You can you can talk to people that are in the building under the radio tower.
You got to check this out.
OK, well, we'll definitely do that if we're in that part of the world.
But anyway, as far as the camp goes,
that starts, I believe, a week from Wednesday, right?
A week. Is it a week from today or a week from tomorrow?
It starts on Wednesday.
It starts on Wednesday. So five days.
So next week we will have experienced the first day of camp.
And it goes until Sunday.
And these things are always pretty incredible.
Now, if you have registered for a ticket, I understand that.
I did not hear this from the chaos people themselves,
but apparently tickets are now able to be printed out there.
I don't understand why they don't email people to let them know this.
But apparently if you have to follow their Twitter account,
one would one would hope that you realize you'll need a ticket
and then get. Yeah.
But, you know, I was waiting for the email to come.
But, you know, I'm used to receiving things rather than having to go out
and find them.
The German chaos people, in my experience, are very good
at organizing events, but very bad at organizing ticket systems.
It's weird, isn't it? Yeah.
I don't understand that.
We're never going to get our tickets now.
Well, Juns and I were talking about it
because we'd worked on the ticket system for hope.
And he said it was funny because maybe maybe they tweeted or something
that they just figured out how to generate the tickets.
So now that they could now people could get them.
You guys should fly over there and help them with get the printer started.
There's people from from Holland who had a very well run ticket system
two years ago who could like practically walk to Germany and they border.
So, you know, Bernie, maybe you want to go to Holland.
I know you've been there.
I've been there many times, but maybe I'll go back or France.
Have you been to France?
I have not spent much time in France, so that's near the top of my list.
OK. Do you want to go to France?
Yeah, that's that's a very definite up and coming country.
You're going to hear a lot about that country in the future.
I think it's all old Europe, isn't it?
It's pretty old, pretty old.
But, you know, they've got young people, too.
They're replenishing the supply.
All right. So here we are again.
This is the final week of our fundraiser here at the radio station.
And I know it's been going on for for several weeks now, but it is necessary
to keep keep these happy voices coming out over the transmitters
and various topics that we discuss week after week on the FM dial.
And what we are doing is actually, you know what?
We have the hacker calendar right here.
We can I say we offer it?
Yes. I'll hand it to you, Mike, because you asked nicely.
We we offered this a couple of weeks ago.
And last week when we were doing the Kevin Mitnick piece,
we said that we were done offering it.
But you know what?
And we have one more week, an extended fundraiser.
So we figured, why not?
It's officially being released on Friday at Defcon in Las Vegas.
So if you're going there, you'll you'll certainly see it.
But we have we have a copy right here in the radio station
and we're going to offer it again.
In addition to the 20 history related hope DVDs.
These are talks from our hackers on planet Earth conference over the years
that that basically deal with some kind of historical
subject matter, whether it be the history of phone
freaking or or various
legal challenges that have occurred over the years or the telephone
pioneers or the the DMCA, even North Korea is in there.
We have all kinds of historical focal points
that have been touched upon at one point or another
at at these hacker conferences.
It's not just about programming and playing with computers.
It's about so much more than that.
If you want a good introduction, give a call to 212-209-2950.
Not only will you get the 20 DVDs, but you'll get the brand new hacker calendar
that well, let me describe it.
It's these guys are just completely lost in it.
They're staring at it.
It's engrossing. It's it's engrossing.
And it's also glossy.
It's it's a glossy calendar that you hang on your wall.
Yeah, but lots of things are glossy.
Not all of them have this kind of content. That's true.
Big pictures for every month of of something
technological of in nature that will draw your eye
and be really fascinating, something you certainly don't see every day.
And in addition, almost every single day of the year
has some kind of event that happened.
Now, Red Hat, I'm going to ask you to stop right there
and put your finger down on a date that has something of significance
and read the date and what it is that happened on that particular date.
April 11th. OK.
Fugitive hacker Kevin Polson, Dark Dante apprehended in Los Angeles
after months on the run. 1991.
There you go. There you go.
There's a there's a bit of hacker history there.
There is so much hacker history.
It covers virtually every day of the year and things
that are of interest to hackers, things that hackers have done.
It's all there.
And I've I've I've never actually seen and having worked personally on this project,
I guess I'm a little bit biased, but I've never actually seen
so many facts in one place involving hackers.
I've seen lots of books,
but they usually focus on one particular aspect of the hacker world.
This kind of wraps it all up.
And you see just how how big an effect it's had on the world.
So the hacker calendar is an amazing way to to just see that and feel it yourself
and also know what what day it is in the year 2012.
The calendar, actually, it's a 16 month calendar.
The first page has four months like calendars have September,
October, November, December of 2011.
But then the the real fun begins in January 2012,
where every single day has something going on.
Two one two two zero nine two nine five zero.
You'll get the the 20 DVDs and the whole calendar for a pledge of seventy five
dollars. If you want to pledge one twenty five, you'll get 40 DVDs, twice
many DVDs filled with hope content of various sorts.
And you also get the hacker calendar.
It's a great deal. Two one two two zero nine two nine five zero.
I'm going to bring up the phone program here and see if we have any calls coming
in. Well, we should.
Two one two two zero nine two nine five zero is the number.
We have to get to. Yes, I was just in the telly room a few moments ago
and there are more than two volunteers there.
There are. Yes.
And a whole lot of phones.
Yeah. And we don't have that that thing potted up where you can hear
the phone ringing because I find that annoying and I don't like hearing.
I like hearing the sound of phone ring, but not all the time.
And we do get a lot of calls.
I would venture to say obnoxious.
It's a bit obnoxious. Yes.
But you can hear the phone ring when you call.
You'll hear the ring back while you wait for the volunteer to pick up.
Yeah, just like a regular phone call.
Two one two two zero nine two nine five zero.
And if you want to try it.
OK, Mike, you have failed to get another call, but I know, Bernie, you can
probably get get those phones ringing just by starting to speak.
I don't know what what my dulcet tones accomplished,
but I do want to encourage our listeners.
Nothing yet. Nothing yet.
Now that this radio station, WBAI, is the only radio station in the United States.
I know as long as you've gone without generating a phone call, Bernie,
you're going to step up radio show for the hacker community.
And we're going to cover stuff here that as we have for decades,
literally decades, that you're not going to hear any other radio station.
So give some credit to WBAI, keep them on the air
and we'll send you some great gifts in return.
Two one two two zero nine two nine five zero.
Now we're down to one call, Bernie.
What did you do? You got rid of a call.
No, no, we got it.
We got to get those phone lines ringing two one two two zero nine two nine five zero.
Try to keep trying.
This hacker calendar, I'm telling you, has
12 months plus an extra four months for free.
And amazing hacker for hacker
trivia and history photographs.
It's also got a cover photo, a cover photo that you can you can preview
the cover photo by simply looking at the hacker calendar dot com.
And there you'll see an example of the kind of photography we have in this thing.
You can relive the hacker history almost every day
by looking at this hacker calendar and saying, hey, on this date
in nineteen, blah, blah, blah, or whatever, something
significant to the hacker community happened.
And you can just have flashbacks about it.
You know, I remember that when that thing happened
and then it just brings you into a whole new world of like,
and this is just like what's happening now.
Bernie, I'm sure.
First of all, we have three calls, so good job.
But I'm shocked that you would think that it's limited to 19.
Blah, blah, blah, whatever it is you said.
No hacker history goes well beyond the 20th century and the 21st century.
There's all kinds of Red Hat.
Are you on something?
You know, it's something I'm talking about.
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to find it.
All right. Now, while you're searching and there's a lot of days to search through,
we'll give an example of something that is not just in the 1900s or the 2000s.
It's all in there.
212-209-2950, join the three calls online.
Go ahead, buddy.
Here's one, for example.
William Austin Burt patents the typographer, a precursor to the typewriter.
1829. 1829.
What day in 1829?
I'm sorry. July 23rd.
All right.
And so if you have that calendar hanging on your wall in July, you'll, July 2012,
you'll note that particular date.
That's kind of cool.
A patent for a coin operated telephone issued to William Gray.
18, sorry, August 13, 1889.
What happened today?
What's today? Today is August 3rd.
CDC's back orifice released in 1998.
There you go. See, that's a bit of history right there.
People have forgotten about that.
Well, I remember that. Yeah, I do, too.
I was there. I remember it well.
212-209-2950, get the Hacker Calendar for your pledge of either 75 or 125
and a choice of 20 DVDs or 40 DVDs.
I want to play a piece that comes from this particular collection.
And this is rather unusual.
This is an example of how how the hacker world expands well
beyond what you might think from reading the mass media
or just hearing what's talked about on TV and in the movies.
This has to do with the Apollo space missions.
This was a talk given by Stephen Cass at the Next Hope,
which was the most recent one back in 2010.
And we're going to hear an excerpt from the three greatest hacks of Apollo
where basically he's talking about how a bit of hacking saved Apollo 13.
You actually hear a recording
from from the radio communications between ground control and Apollo 13,
in addition to some things that you did not hear that went on behind the scenes.
So it's at the beginning.
It's a little a little noisy because there are people talking on the radio
and it's very hectic.
And you can imagine you have astronauts up there in space that you're trying to rescue.
It's definitely an emotional thing.
But I think he does a really good job explaining.
And we're just going to hear a few minutes of this.
This talk goes on for an hour.
It's one of 20.
If you pledge seventy five dollars, one of 40, if you pledge one twenty five.
And of course, you get the calendar two one two two zero nine two nine five zero.
Did you say forty four zero zero? Yes. Wow.
Yeah. Four zero four.
Forty DVDs for a pledge of one twenty five.
That's that's a good deal.
Even if they were blank, there would be a good deal.
But they're not blank.
They have all kinds of cool things on them.
Anyway, let's let's hear a little bit from the three greatest hacks of Apollo.
And I think we're only going to play one of them.
And this is however, this is a ground loop conversation.
So it's a little harder to make out the audio
because what you're listening to is an overlay of the astronauts talking.
You're also listening out for the flight director talking to the EECOM.
And the EECOM was the mission controller in charge of the environmental
electronic environmental programs.
At one point is also in charge of communications.
But that was separated out.
But they kept the name the same.
And you hear him talk to EECOM.
And most importantly, you hear him talking a little bit to his backroom boys.
And so the way mission control was structured,
which you see that very classic in all the guys in front of the rows of consoles.
Each one of those, if you were to go out the door and turn right,
there are many, many other rooms where you might have had.
So you have the EECOM sitting as his console.
And then he had three or four guys who also had very similar consoles
looking at very specific subsystems.
And oftentimes they would chat themselves on the loop
before they would maybe go back and talk to the flight director.
So it's a little bit tangled.
And but I think you'll get you'll get the sense.
So that's what the world heard.
And now, OK, so this is this is the actual transcripts
from the from the mission controllers.
Role complete. Roger, Pete.
Clock to take flight.
Mark one Bravo.
I got three fuel cell lights, an AC bus light, a fuel cell.
Disconnect AC bus overload one and two main bus A and B.
How's it how's it looking, EECOM?
Is that the SCE?
Well, I don't know, John.
I sure don't. What do you see?
I'm lost, EECOM. Try SCE to AUX.
Say again? SCE to AUX?
AUX.
SCE to AUX.
Auxiliary point.
SCE to AUX, CAPCOM.
What's that, EECOM?
Apollo 12, Houston. Try SCE to Auxiliary. Over.
SCE to Auxiliary.
SCE. SCE to Auxiliary.
We got it back, EECOM.
Looks good.
We got it back, boy. Looks good.
OK.
And that's it. They saved the mission.
So what was happening there was was the magic switch SCE to AUX.
Very clearly, that wasn't a common command.
Nobody really knew what it was.
But but a couple of things went on here.
One, the flight controller was a guy called, well,
so let's talk about the SCE first.
So the SCE is what's known as a signal conditioning equipment.
And the Apollo missions were very heavily instrumented.
And a lot of problems they had were due to instrumentation problems.
But you get all these signals, you know, from the heater pump,
from the radar, all these instruments come through.
They all have to be normalized into a standard range of voltages.
So one, they can be displayed inside the cockpit.
And two, so that can be sent back down the radio feed.
So what had happened was that when a lightning strike happened,
all those fuel cells in the service modules that I mentioned tripped off.
And so the the command, the command module is drawing power
from a couple of batteries that were really only meant for reentry
and a little bit of emergency situations.
And if you read the Apollo 13 story, it became all about
not the section I'll be talking about,
but it came very much about managing those battery reserves.
But the problem was that when it went to those batteries,
the voltage is dropped below what the SCE normally use.
And there's a little switch down, a little panel that switched
into auxiliary mode, which was not in the procedures.
It was kind of there almost as a legacy issue
from how they had built the equipment.
And that said, whatever kind of crappy voltage you have, go with it.
And when they did that, they got back telemetry.
And also the displays began, you know, reading meaningful results.
So they could see not that they had the entire command module melting down,
but that they had three disconnected fuel cells.
So the man who made that call, though,
who recognized that the SCE problem was this guy called John Aaron.
And he's also very important in Apollo 13 in different ways.
But at the time, this incident made him like the original steely eyed missile man.
And the reason he was able to recognize that call
and nobody else could have made was because a year earlier at a pad test,
he had seen this result.
And that test guy had made a mistake with the command module.
The SCE had been giving out these screwy readings.
And he knew they were screwy readings because, you know, there'd be a certain piece
of equipment that had only, that he knew would only operate between 12
and 28 volts, and it was reporting 6 volts.
It was a very distinct pattern of screwage.
It's like, you know, sometimes if you look at your, you know, when you get a blue screen
at depth and actually, and all those numbers appear, he was the guy who could actually look
at those numbers and realize exactly what they meant.
And so in a sense, you might think, well, this is awfully lucky.
And it really was lucky.
But it does speak to the culture of mission control at that time where these guys went
through every system.
They understood systems.
They were deeply involved in developing the operations for them.
They were deeply involved in talking with the engineers who built them.
You know, each one of these guys had an immense depth of technical knowledge.
It was built up over years in simulations.
And then notice when he actually made the call.
First off, he checks his backroom guys.
He says, well, do you think it's the SE?
They don't know what the hell it is.
And he comes back and says, flight, instantly, flight, try SE to auxiliary.
He has confidence to make that call that he, what he thinks he sees is what he sees.
And I spoke to Gene Kranz about this, about how you take these flight controllers.
Many of them are in their 20s, right out of college.
And how do you get a guy to that particular point where he can make that call?
And he says, well, it took about a year to 18 months to make a flight controller.
And you started them off gathering information, doing very simple tasks,
gathering information from manufacturers, helping the flight controllers build procedures
and implementation, and then you put them through simulation after simulation after simulation.
And the thing that would wipe out a flight controller was
that they wouldn't have that level of confidence.
It required a certain level of arrogance.
It required a certain level of just go for it.
And John Aron was possibly the epitome of that.
He really understood all of the systems, and he had this unshakable confidence.
And later on, again, it's an aspect of Apollo 13 I won't be talking about,
but he devised this power-up sequence that the astronauts had to enter in without,
in order to save power, they had to turn off the instrumentation that would tell them
if they were making mistakes or not.
So he had them radio up this checklist in which the astronauts had to enter
in perfectly, first time, after they'd been awake for days,
one of them had a urinary tract infection.
And he made that call, and he had no problem with it at the time.
Years later, as an older man, a little bit more reflective, he still has nightmares
about it because of how risky that procedure was.
But at the time, you know, you needed these cocky guys
who were confident but not overconfident.
So that was John Aron.
Oh, the other thing I should say is that as soon as he made the call,
notice how the flight controller, who has no idea what's going on, goes, well, okay, John.
And he tells the CAPCOM, and it gets signaled up.
They had trust.
They believed each other.
They trained with each other.
They relied on each other.
That's an engineering culture that is primed for success.
I mean, recently, in years, NASA's been dinged for its, you know, culture issues.
But anybody who's involved in high-risk,
high-tech enterprises could learn from what these guys did.
All right.
And that was riveting, I think, from the three greatest hacks of Apollo,
a talk given at the Next Hope, one of 20 DVDs that you'll get for your pledge
of $75, 212.209.2950, including the Hacker Calendar,
which is about to be released to the public.
Bernie, what did you think of that talk?
Did you happen to see that one live?
No, I had to catch that later on.
I downloaded the audio and listened to it while I was traveling.
But it was, it just made me realize that the hacker culture is a part of so many parts
of our world, and that we never could have got to the moon without the hacker culture
of just making things happen in ways that they were never designed to work,
or just work around that sort of thing.
You know, it's responsible for so many things in our universe and in our lives.
So, you know, on that theme, I encourage listeners to call
and support the hacker culture and the radio station that broadcasts
about hacker culture, WBAI, at 212.209.2950.
We're going to send you some great hacker gifts for supporting WBAI.
For $75, we'll send you the 2012 Hacker Calendar, which really starts in September next month.
20 DVDs of the best of Hope, including the thing you just heard.
The Three Greatest Hacks of Apollo, yes.
You're right.
The Three Greatest Hacks of Apollo, that thing you just heard, but a whole hour of that
with the video.
For $125, you'll get 40 DVDs of the best talks of Hope, and also the 2012 Hacker Calendar.
212.209.2950.
We have four calls on the line, so let's make that eight calls, because we have that many people
down there to take the phone calls.
212.209.2950.
We'll list off all 20 talks if people are curious as to what historical-related talks we have
included in the Hope packages.
We also have some more dates to focus on with the Hacker Calendar.
But the most important thing, though, is to get those phone lines lit up so that we have a
station that we can talk about these things, talk about the various historical things that
hackers have been up to over the years.
I think what Steven Cass was saying at the end of that, though, was very key to a lot of the
things that we talk about, and that's that engineering culture and how you have to be
somewhat overconfident in yourself and just say, this is how it should be done.
And that's basically how you learn, by having faith in each other and listening to each
other and just playing with technology until it works properly.
That's how you get things like Apollo missions to work successfully.
212.209.2950.
Anybody lose some keys?
We just found some keys.
OK.
You don't want those ones?
OK.
I don't think.
No, that's OK.
I have keys.
Any listeners have keys that they'd like us to send?
No, we're not going to do that.
We're just going to send you the DVDs and the calendar.
OK.
So we have any more dates from the calendar?
You guys have been perusing the calendar.
We're just going to send you the DVDs and the calendar.
It's 20 DVDs.
20 DVDs.
Yeah, 20 DVDs.
Or 40 DVDs.
And they'll have you focused on some bit of hacker history that you'll learn a lot from.
What do you got, RedHack?
June 14th, Flag Day.
Also.
That's one of the official.
We have a lot of official holidays, too.
In 1822, the Difference Engine was proposed by Charles Babbage.
Now you're going overboard with all the 1800s.
Sorry.
We do have a lot of things.
I think there are some things that go back to the 1700s, maybe even before then.
And there are a couple that actually go into the future, but I'm not going to give those away.
212, 209, 2950.
It's really.
You want to maybe describe some of the photographs that way, just in your own words, not so much the captions, but just something saying, wow, this is.
I've never seen anything like that before.
Yeah, there's a lot of interesting kind of old telephone equipment or almost some of the pictures are kind of humorous in a way in terms of what they have in them.
But it's mostly centered around telephony.
Actually, I think entirely.
Yes.
It's a telephonic theme for the pictures as far as old phones or existing networking equipment or just weird things that you might not notice.
And things that have things that have clearly been on fire.
Like, for instance, the cover, which which you can guess.
Well, we won't get into that.
The cover is is an alarm, a bell system emergency alarm.
What is a bell system emergency alarm?
Have you ever seen one of those?
Well, they have them in inside the phone company.
And and we were fortunate enough to be able to to get some shots of that.
And here they are in really vivid color and extremely interesting to look at.
Photographs taken by our two staff photographers, Dave Buchwald and Kyle Drastic, who went around taking pictures of all sorts of things telephonically.
And again, you get this plus the 20 DVDs for a pleasure of seventy five dollars to one to two zero nine two nine five zero and 40 DVDs for one twenty five again to one to two zero nine two nine five zero.
We're down to one call.
So if you weren't getting an answer before now, you can call and you'll definitely get an answer.
OK, here are the the 20 talks as as promised.
Actually, you know what?
We all have a list so we can we can alternate.
How about that?
OK, I'll start with one.
You do number two.
Voltaire will be three.
Voltaire will be three.
Redhack, you'll be four.
Can we do this?
And then we'll just keep going back and forth.
So I'm every multiple of four.
Pretty much.
Yeah, I can handle that.
Here I go.
Steven Levy keynote at the Last Hope, where he talks about all kinds of history of hackers and hacking and things like that.
We have the hack freak history primer with Jason Scott, who knows really everything about hack and freak history.
He really does.
He makes it his business to know everything about what's going on in the hacker world.
And he shares some of that with us at the Last Hope in 2008.
We had the three greatest hacks of Apollo, which you just heard.
We just heard that, yes, from the Next Hope.
What and who is Anonymous from the Last Hope?
Anonymous, you mean Anonymous, the group that controls everything.
And wow.
So they actually appeared on stage.
Well, some of them appeared on stage.
All right.
You get that as well.
Email, descendant of the telegram with our good friend Cheshire Catalyst giving that talk at the Last Hope.
Cheshire is great for talking about history and the way technology used to work and also just really simple ways of doing what has become very complex, using links as a browser, for instance, various things like that, that give you an understanding of how the whole network works.
We have the phone company, the FBI and the phone freaks by Phil Lapsley.
From the Next Hope.
Yeah, he does great talks about history involving phone freaks and things like that.
Vintage Computing by Evan Copeland and Bill Degman.
OK, and that's from the Next Hope as well.
Vintage Computing, talking about old computers and really bringing back memories for people that were involved in the early days and teaching people a lot who weren't involved back then.
The Telephone Pioneers of America by Kyle Drozdik, who's one of the photographers who worked on the calendar.
What a coincidence.
Wow, we were just talking about him.
And that was from the Next Hope.
That was from the Next Hope, yes.
And then a subject dear to my heart, DPRK Exploration by Michael Kemp from, that was the most recent conference, the Next Hope, where he talks about North Korea and some of the mysteries and oddities of that nation.
And yeah, it's of interest to hackers because it's weird and strange and different.
So it's not, like I said, just about computers.
It's about all kinds of things.
And if you're a U.S. citizen, it's a hack to get in, isn't it?
Well, no, not necessarily.
I mean, it's a hack to find out the information, but it's fairly easy to get in if you pay attention.
It's all about paying attention.
Something to which we've paid a lot of attention, A Decade Under the DMCA by Marsha Wilber.
And that was from 2008.
So it's been more than a decade now?
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
And we, in fact, 2600, were the first organization to be sued under the DMCA back in 2000.
So there's history there as well.
Walter?
The Intersection of Culture Jamming, Hacking, and Hacktivism.
And that's also from The Last Hope.
OK.
How the U.S. Shattered the Enigma Code by Shalom Silbermintz.
That's from The Next Hope.
OK.
That's real history right there.
I mean, that's, you know, for people who don't know, the Enigma Code was a system of encryption that the Germans used during World War II.
And it took a lot for us to break it.
But we did.
You couldn't really.
I think we worked with Britain to break it, right?
Yeah, we had some help.
And I think Poland was involved as well.
Yeah, they started it.
Yeah, they started the whole, not the war.
They started figuring out how to crack it.
Right.
OK.
From Indymedia to Demand Media.
The Transformation of Journalism by Chris Anderson.
That was a talk given at The Next Hope as well.
And yeah, journalism is another part of hacking.
And the evolution that we've witnessed over the last few years is very much in the hacker world.
Our friend Karamun gave a talk on the life and times of Alan Turing, father of the computer, at Hope No. 6.
Back in 2006.
And Alan Turing.
And he was involved in the Enigma Code breaking.
Yeah.
There's so much history.
And so much more.
I know.
And of course, a lot more.
But that was actually, it's funny, that was a name that I was trying to pull up.
You have trouble remembering Alan Turing's name.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Well, here's the thing.
Some people mix up Nikolai Tesla and Alan Turing because their names begin with T.
Some people do that.
But the birthdates of both of them are in the calendar.
I can tell you that right now.
So if you knew what day they were born, you'd be able to find it.
Yeah, it's that easy.
Nikolai Tesla, born 1856 on July 10th.
And what else happened on July 10th, RedHack?
What else?
Oh, the EFF began operation in 1990.
Isn't that interesting?
So sometimes you'll find one day has two significant events.
And you wonder, did the EFF intentionally start on the birthday of Nikolai Tesla?
These are questions that have never been asked before.
But when you have the calendar, you'll be asking these questions all the time
and listening and watching DVDs.
212-209-2950.
Join the one call on the line.
I hope that's not the same call.
I hope lots of people have called in in the time since I looked at that last.
There's all kinds of things that you can benefit from by having these DVDs.
Whose turn is it, by the way?
We have Mischief and Mayhem at the RNC by Shapeshifter from The Fifth Help.
Shapeshifter actually has a lot of history there.
The Fifth Help took place in 2004, and he had actually been arrested
at the at the Republican Convention in Philadelphia back in 2000.
And it's funny because I got arrested at the one in New York in 2004
right after he gave this talk, I guess.
And he talks about his case.
He was our layout artist and basically just somebody
who took an interest in things going on.
He was an activist.
But all he was doing at the time was talking on his telephone,
walking down the street.
In fact, I think he was talking to me because I just arrived in Philadelphia
and I wanted to see what was going on.
But apparently that was enough to get him arrested
because they thought he was coordinating everything.
And it goes to show how the authorities really don't have a clue half the time.
That seems to be a common theme we keep coming back to.
So that RNC talk is definitely a very interesting one as well.
Freaking in the Early Days by Captain Crunch and Cheshire Catalyst
from The Fifth Help.
And you can't ask for better people to tell you about freaking in the early days.
Yeah, they know all the facts, all the gossip.
OK, last last round here.
The Conscience of a Hacker by The Mentor from H2K2.
And that was in 2002.
And of course, The Conscience of a Hacker was was basically an anthem
written by The Mentor.
We brought him up to New York to read it live.
This is the piece that was read in the movie Hackers.
It's something that that every hacker quotes every now and then.
It's just kind of a call to arms.
It's really inspirational.
So it's it's it's it's definitely historic moment
having him there in front of a crowd reading the the piece that he wrote.
We had the retro computing panel at H2K with Graphics, Mr.
Ohm, Night Stalker and Sam Knitsberg.
And that's from H2K in the year 2000.
Right. So imagine how retro the computing will be now.
Yeah, that was a great talk, too.
A lot of enthusiasm shown for old computing and things like that.
We have the DCSS story with you and Robin Gross.
You being our listeners?
No, you being me.
OK, so you're looking at me.
If listeners were in the audience, they probably asked a question.
Yeah, that's you might hear yourself if you were at a Hope conference.
That's true. You might see yourself.
Tunes might be in it.
Yeah, it's quite possible.
Now, the DCSS, I'm sorry, the DCSS story
is basically related to that lawsuit we made reference to before
where we were sued for a program written by Jan Johansson
of of Norway.
And yeah, basically.
Is this the dramatization or is that different?
No, that was the that was the mock trial.
Now that's that's something else.
We have all kinds of weird things.
And and finally, Red Hat, you get the last talk of the 20 DVD set.
Apparently so that the 20th talk of the 20 DVD set
is the first talk of the first Hope conference back in 1994,
where we started the whole thing.
You'll see how it how it all came about.
And that that is history right there.
But you don't have to watch them in order.
So you could start with that one if you wanted to relive the experience.
You can watch them any way you want.
But OK, we do have more calls online, but only one other call.
So we want to have people call in now.
212-209-2950.
Going to play a piece from from Kevin Mitnick.
Now, this shows up if you get the 40 DVD set.
So if you pledge 125, you'll get some other DVDs, including this
this piece of Kevin Mitnick's, where he's telling a story.
And this took place.
This took place in the in the next hope
during that infamous informants panel where everyone's
telling their story for a few minutes.
And this is this is Kevin Mitnick's story.
212-209-2950. Pledge of 125.
You'll get this DVD plus 39 others.
Pledge of 75. You'll get the 20 historical DVDs.
All pledges.
75 and over.
Get the brand new Hacker Calendar just being released this week.
Here's Kevin Mitnick.
212-209-2950.
So without the dialogue, and that's what I hope we accomplish here today,
the dialogue where we actually try and understand where we're all coming from.
Maybe we can prevent this kind of thing from continuing to happen.
But right now, and as you'll hear with some of the stories today,
this is a part of our community that has always been there.
The amount of people who turn into informants,
the amount of people who turn people in,
the amount of people that you think you can trust with information
that you really can't.
That is that has always been with us and likely will be for for quite some time.
Kevin, what do you have?
Yeah, I had issues with informants as well.
Thank you. Little issues. Yeah.
First of all, the the way the federal authorities work
is it's divide and conquer.
So what they want to do is if they could find more than one person
involved in a case, what they'll what they'll do
is they'll try to turn the other person to what they call a cooperator.
So and the benefit of that, obviously, is the person gets a reduced sentence
or under the federal sentencing guidelines,
they get what they call acceptance of responsibility.
So what so in essence, what the informant or the snitch
is actually getting paid with, you know, not money,
but less time in exchange for their testimony,
which I have a problem with, because
if a jury found out that somebody was paid ten thousand dollars to testify
or they were paid with one year less in prison, to me, it's the same.
So they actually get paid for their testimony.
In my personal experience, when I first hacked
and this is right out of high school, I was 17 years old.
I became involved with this group of guys
and they knew much more about the RISD operating system.
In fact, they actually were the administrators of the system
for the Los Angeles Unified School District.
And at the time I was into phone freaking.
I didn't really care much about hacking.
I was more very had a very passionate feeling towards telephony.
And I wanted to join this group.
So what they did is they had their initiation was like an impossible task.
They had a colleague that actually worked for Digital Equipment
Corporation on the RISD development team.
And they told me that for me to be able to join their group,
I had to break into RISD development a deck.
And I said, well, how can I do that?
Well, we're going to give you the dial up number.
So they gave me the dial up number.
And at the time, you know, the only thing you could do
is either guess passwords or use social engineering at that point.
So I actually use social engineering.
I was able to get in.
And then what these guys did is they immediately went down to an office
that actually had faster modems, you know, like twelve hundred baud.
Because back then we're at one hundred and ten, three hundred baud.
So they run down to their office, twelve hundred baud.
And they're actually copying the source code to the RISD operating system.
And I was kind of watching them do this.
And then I found out later, after they finished this task,
they actually called Digital Equipment Corporation and told them
I'm the one that hacked in.
After they stole all their source code.
Fortunately, I was a juvenile at the time and nothing
nothing actually happened to me.
I was never approached by the authorities.
But later on in life, I chose bad hacking partners.
And there was a guy named Lenny DeCicco.
And he and I always had contests against each other.
So I worked at a company.
He worked at a company.
And we'd have a challenge if we could hack into other each other's systems,
like kind of like capture the flag.
We would the reward would be two hundred bucks.
So I kept getting into his system at work, but he could never get into mine.
And he got angry.
And then one time and then it ended up becoming a situation
where he actually went to the I did some pranks because
we had a little falling out over this.
And he actually went to the FBI and told them all the hacking
we were doing in Digital Equipment Corporation, because at that time
we were copying the VMS source code.
So here's a guy that wasn't even under
investigation or anything at that point.
And because he was angry with me, went to the federal authorities
and became an informant.
But because he didn't get a lawyer or discuss this with an attorney,
what had happened is he actually ended up getting himself convicted of a felony.
Yeah, which was really stupid.
He was just so angry.
He you know, he ended up now he has a felony on his record.
So then later on, you know, then I got involved with another another guy
and he was in the fugitive game.
Probably for those that have read the book, there's a guy named Louis DePayne.
He and I were hacking partners for over 20 years.
And the fugitive game, because John Letman got input from him
and not really the authorities
when they went and searched his apartment in the book,
it's portrayed as he had was one up on the FBI, that he was
not being cooperative at all.
And he was being antagonistic and that he knew all about their operation,
which he knew a lot about their operation.
But in the book, it appeared he was like non-cooperative
and a smartass to the government.
But in reality, when I got my discovery, what they call FBI 302s,
this is when somebody interviews with an FBI agent.
They fill out these FBI 302 forms.
When I got that in my pretrial discovery after four years, by the way,
I found out that that really wasn't the case.
That was that as soon as they got into, searched his apartment,
he immediately offered cooperation if the government could provide him protection.
Like I was going to do something.
But so in all my cases,
except for the last one of Satomo Shimomura, they all involved informants.
And in one case, it was a guy that was had a vendetta against me.
The second case was a guy who was under investigation with me.
Myself, when I was going, when I was sitting in custody,
there was the Free Kevin movement.
I was offered to cooperate, you know,
because what happens is how the government wants to work.
The cases is they want somebody to be able to testify against the other
and they want to divide and conquer both, you know,
all the parties in a conspiracy.
But at the time I refused to cooperate because I felt it was against my ethic
and moral fiber to reduce my sentence, to hand it off to somebody else.
I just felt really uncomfortable.
So I sat in prison much longer than I normally would if I would have had to
cooperate,
but I feel good today knowing that I didn't hurt somebody else.
I didn't try to reduce my sentence to harm another individual.
And it even got to the point where the government said, okay,
you don't have to cooperate against somebody else,
but we want to debrief you.
And I even refused to allow the government to debrief me.
So what ended up happening is I actually served out like the full sentence.
I didn't get any points for acceptance or responsibility or anything of that
sort. But what I think what's also interesting,
there's a way to detect formants in the federal system.
There is a computer system called Pacer,
public access court electronic records.
And this allows you to look up dockets,
the docket reports of people that have been charged with federal crimes,
also civil bankruptcy there.
So in knowing how the system works,
because I was inside the system for quite some time,
I could look at a docket and kind of get a good sense of whether that person is
cooperating against another individual. And let, let, let's look up an example.
I'm not saying this particular person's an informant, but there's a,
it's highly suspicious some of the circumstances in their docket.
So let's take a quick look.
All right. Well, no, Kevin, we can't do that right now,
unfortunately because we don't have much time left,
but this is one of the talks that you get for a pledge of one 25, uh,
40 hope DVD talks, uh, and the hacker calendar,
which is just being released right now, uh, for a pledge of 75,
you'll get a 20 hope DVDs and the hacker calendar.
Now, uh, Mike, you just visited, uh,
down in tally and a quite pleasant down there at this time of year.
They were very friendly, but a bit too relaxed for my taste.
And, uh, we have not broken a thousand yet.
We need about another four or five calls to break a thousand.
We have to break a thousand or they won't let us out of the building.
It was hard enough getting in the building, but to get out,
we were going to have to raise a thousand bucks. Uh, and that's,
that's where our listeners come in. Uh, if they could help us out,
please either the $75 pledge or the one $25 pledge, uh,
we'll, uh, we'll definitely, uh, get us over that amount. And, uh,
then we're done. This is the last few minutes of the fundraiser. Uh,
the fundraiser actually ends today from what I understand, uh,
two on two, two zero nine, two nine five zero next week.
We'll be on from Germany. Uh, and of course, uh, some of you will be here.
Walter, you'll be here in the studio. I believe unfortunately you don't like the
studio. No, but I'd rather be in the, the makeshift studio.
Well, you'll be in a makeshift studio at some point.
I can almost guarantee that and Rob T Firefly will be manning the board. Uh,
now, uh, Bernie, uh, we're going to have to call on you again to,
to help get those calls coming in. Well, one one's in right now. That's good.
Thank you for that person calling in. Uh,
please we need about four or five more calls to get over a thousand dollars.
Emmanuel. I just want to, I really want to beg our listeners to let us.
Don't beg, Bernie. Don't beg. It doesn't become you to beg.
No, I want to send our listeners. I want to,
I want to be at the center of listeners, the hacker gift to keep on giving.
I mean, this is, this is an amazing hacker calendar that covers, uh,
covers 16 months starting in September. Um, with amazing pictures and,
and, and trivia and just stuff that makes you think about everything going on in
the hacker scene for, for, for generations.
And we're going to send you stacks of DVDs with the best of the hook
conferences, uh, 20 DVDs or 40 DVDs,
your choice. Just give us a call. You're going to support WBAI,
the only radio station that has a hacker radio show like this.
And we're going to send you some fantastic gifts.
What's that phone number, Bernie?
2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0. Give us a call. We only have minutes left.
We've got to finish up this hand, this fundraiser with a bang,
get us over a thousand dollars and we'll leave you alone for the next few
months. We promise.
Yeah, we won't leave you alone with our banter on the air and, and, and, uh,
controversial subject matter because that's what we do.
And that's what so many different shows on this station do.
That's what we've been doing for 51 years now, since 1960 it's magic.
And you make the magic happen. Uh, radio stations don't survive on,
on good wishes alone. You need to be able to pay the bills.
You need to be able to keep the transmitter maintained.
And we're not talking about a low power station here.
We're talking about a station that's as powerful as Z 100 and, and,
and KTU and all the stations that are on the air, uh,
here in New York city on top of the empire state building.
And you want to talk about hacking.
That's a hack right there to be able to have a non-commercial radio station,
not only on top of the empire state building, but in the middle of the FM dial,
not in the non-commercial ghetto that's below 92.
We're right there with everybody else.
And every day people stumble upon this radio station because they don't turn the
dial enough to get to the one they thought they were going to.
And they're entranced by what is real radio.
People actually talking and exchanging ideas and taking phone calls and being
controversial and not having any commercials. 212-209-2950.
Make that magic continue for another 51 years. It's history.
The whole world follows WBAI. And there's a reason for that.
It's because of that magic. Yes.
And they have been since January 10, 1960,
when WBAI in New York begins broadcasting as part of the Pacific radio network.
Are you saying that's in the calendar too? My goodness.
Even things that are peripherally involved with hackers like WBAI are notated
in the hacker calendar. I'm surprised. I forgot about that.
212-209-2950. We have three calls on the line. Let's make that five.
Let's make that six.
I don't think it's right to say that WBAI is peripherally involved.
It is the essence of, of the show. And it is, you know,
what are the radio station?
Will that hackers have an hour on the air every week for years?
You won't find another one in that calendar.
Yeah. Since 1988, I'm sure that data is on there.
The first off the hook broadcast back in 1988. And yeah,
all kinds of history has been made just on this radio show alone.
So imagine you add in all the other radio shows that are on in a typical week,
and then you add in all the weeks in a typical year and all the years and the
decades that this place has been around.
And you see this as something really worth preserving. And believe me,
there are entities that would take over this frequency in a second and turn it
into something very similar to what you hear on every single other radio
stations worth a lot worth a ton of money.
And people can can profit from that kind of stuff. But you know,
I think we profit more handsomely just by the conversations we have,
the interactions we have, the interviews we do the adventures that we embark upon
and document here on this particular show. It's, it's,
it's been so much fun over the years doing this.
And we'd like to be able to continue.
And we know the listeners get a lot out of it as well and,
and contribute their bits of information and,
and stories and questions and things like that.
Please help invest in that and keep that going. 212-209-2950.
We only have three and a half minutes left.
We have to get over that $1,000 mark again.
Pledge of $75 gets you 20 DVDs plus the hacker calendar.
Pledge of $40 gets you 40 hackers on planet earth,
DVDs and the hacker calendar. You'll,
you'll learn so much about the hacker culture just with these items alone.
What's really amazing about the station is that it's funded this way, dollar by dollar.
You might think that your pledge doesn't matter. We could do without it, but no,
every pledge dollar by dollar, $75, $125, anything you can give,
you can give more, you can give less. 212-209-2950.
And it's your support that make this station stay on the air for all those years.
All right, Bernie, I'm going to give the last word to you while I start up the,
uh, the theme and this theme.
It's actually the off the hook theme with words.
Actually it has words normally, but these are all the words.
But Bernie, I'm gonna give you the last few seconds to get some more calls coming
in.
Please support this radio station.
It's the only radio station that brings a hacker radio show like this to your
ears. 365 days a year. Please give us a call.
212-209-2950. Keep the shows coming.
You just got to support the station. 212-209-2950. Thank you.
You remember everybody involved in this particular radio program and all the
others on this radio station are doing it out of love, out of the spirit of
volunteerism. Uh, we come in here week after week.
Sometimes we get very wet coming in here, uh, as, as we did today.
Sometimes we're not even allowed in the building.
We have to figure out how to get past that particular barrier, but we,
we make it and we do all kinds of, uh, of cool different things every week.
It's because we believe in this place too. If you believe in this place,
please give us a call now. 212-209-2950.
We'll see you next week from Germany and points beyond. Again,
212-209-2950. Thanks everybody who called in. We'll see you next week.
Good night.
I hope this understood.
Now I've got a cold sore. My brother's on the run.
I might have a change of luck before my day is done.
Couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bom diddly bom for the best, expect the worst.
I hope the sun is good.
Now.
You