they're still there and they're still talking to each other and that's an amazing thing so
what can you do now? Come together figure out what is it that ties all of these issues together
and start just hammering away at it. And that concludes part one to this two-part interview
that you're listening to. Once again Occupy Wall Street is heard Monday through Friday at 6 30 p.m
here in the studios of WBAI 99.5 FM in New York and WBAI.org.
And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York. It's
exactly seven o'clock and that means once again it's time for Off The Hook.
shaving now i can't make a cough we couldn't get much worse
but if they could they would for the best
expect the worst i hope that's understood
so
so
and a very good evening to everybody the program is off the hook emmanuel goldstein here with you
joined tonight by mike greetings from the wind tunnel well you ruined it you were in the surprise
so i was going to explain that to everybody um rob t firefly good evening dot red i don't know
jim hello um someone's running in and i guess that's got to be red hat let's let's just wait
for him redhead go ahead sit down so you know what no that's it that's it this is your last show i'm
not going to tolerate this anymore you've been late too many times just you know you can stay
for this hour you can stay for that but get out after that and i don't want to hear your voice
again all right all right okay all right that's just the way it has sometimes folks you have to
lay down the law sometimes you got to be you got to be the bad guy you know why don't you
move far away go to the other side of the country or something like that
and just stay there for a while see how you like that huh that's a pretty good idea all right maybe
i'll do that yeah why don't you do that starting next week why don't you do that all right come in
late on this show all right well that's settled all right uh that went remarkably uh smoothly
well people do what i say i would expect confrontation really people do what i say
when when when you stand up like that and you clench your fists you're sitting down i can see
you we're in the same room down after standing up don't don't make it difficult michael you'll be
next how would you like to wind up in the philippines or something i would argue it's
all i'm saying yeah okay uh we're not finished with the introductions yet our special guest steve
ramban is not in that chair like he's supposed to be where is he supposed to be here do i have to
send him someplace now too you should hire a private investigator he is a private investigator
and i don't think i could hire him to investigate himself although that would be a good trick it'd
be a very easy job oh i like how we have his chair empty like that uh just make sure the microphone
no no you do not sit in steve ramban's chair that's one thing you can never do but dot right
if you could move the microphone closer to the chair so that way when he is talking it'll uh
no not away from the chair okay using a different microphone fine or we could you could have that
microphone and we could move the microphones oh this is just getting off to a great start isn't
it um we're not even finished yet down in philadelphia we have bernie oh wait a minute
hold on and somewhere in pennsylvania is bernie s greetings from pennsylvania all right i got it
right this week and out on the west coast where i believe redhack will soon be relocating um
and see this this person that was in seattle not uh not where i think you're gonna go
uh kyle are you there yeah so i'm here i'm sorry i'm sorry for all the craziness um it's just and
i think it's the heat uh there there's no air conditioning in here if you if you listen this
is what mike was referring to before there's a there's a fan going yeah this is just like
wusb where i always complain about the heat except now it's come to wbai where for some reason we
don't have any air in here so uh we have to have a are we going to keep the fan going for the whole
show yes well i guess we have to we have to breathe don't we i mean it feels great it's right
on the back of my head you're sitting right in front of it you're blocking all the air that's uh
oh well another issue but it's mostly that monitor i think for you um i'm sure our radio audience
really wants to know well it's also do you notice these these lights these bright lights that are
shining down right on me like i'm being interrogated which is what it feels like a lot
of times where were you on the night of the uh 12th uh-huh all right well um yeah okay uh speaking
of interrogation we have hopefully steve will be here soon and we have some things to talk about
with him but we also have some announcements to make and some adventures to relate and that's
where kyle comes in because uh well he's back in in washington right now for a couple of weeks
but uh before he left in a hurry uh we had um a bit of an adventure uh a couple of states away
in fact you can get a more detailed version of this on last night's off the wall which you can
also find on www.2600.com but we uh uh in the tradition of visiting men with hill last
last month that was last month wasn't it yeah yeah uh that which is a massive monitoring post
in the north of england uh we decided for the sake of the uh of next year's hacker calendar
with whose theme is surveillance to visit the good old folks down in fort meade maryland
who run the national security agency otherwise known as the nsa um we um decided to drive down
there and uh snap some photos and see what we can uh put in the calendar as far as uh uh
representing surveillance in this country and and you cannot represent surveillance better than just
taking a look at the nsa complex uh over there it didn't quite go as as planned though did it kyle
um no not entirely um we were able to um check out the area and the community that
sort of supports the main campus which is really sprawling um and we looked for signs of uh
surveillance there and then got closer to the actual facility and um looked for some bandage
points and and found a little bit but um we we were uh stopped actually uh towards the the
um latter part of our journey we we were at the a museum like a visitor's center and um
we had to we had to show it and um you know explain like why we were there well let me just
explain before before we get into that part of it uh basically we we spent a couple of hours just
driving around trying to see if we could get onto the campus at all because in the past it wasn't a
hard thing to do you could drive right up to the building you could drive over to the massive radio
telescope satellite dish type things that they have over there uh bernie maybe you have an idea
as to what those massive things are you could you could fit a house on one of them i mean those big
these things look like gigantic golf balls now these ones as i recall and i i can't tell anymore
because i can't get near them uh they didn't have the golf ball things over them uh they do have the
golf ball things uh but they're just massive satellite dishes yeah massive satellite dishes
like a direct tv dish times 1 000 yeah and i don't think they're just watching movies i think they
must be doing something else right they probably they could be i mean think of the movies they could
pull in with that thing frankly movies from extraterrestrial planets and things yeah al
manar and i'm sure they do but in any case um they are monitoring uh all kinds of what's called
thickened signals it's a military abbreviation or acronym for signals intelligence uh from all
the satellites that are up there a lot of major countries have surveillance satellites up there
spy satellites that are sending down digital data it's all encrypted but as we know there's the nsa
their game is encryption and the breaking thereof so they're sucking down all this stuff and
analyzing it doing traffic analysis when they can't decrypt it but basically they're storing
it all they put all this stuff down in the store and they work on it at their leisure what what
kind of if you can give us an example what kind of data might they be downloading and analyzing
it could be imagery um uh basically image files or live video um from from spy satellites
it could be uh it could be signals intelligence satellites there are satellites up there that do
nothing but eavesdropping um and then they beam down their findings to the nation that is uh has
put those satellites up so that the basically uh we're watching the u.s government nsa is watching
them watch us and we try to gain intelligence from that and and they're also uh the nsa is also
watching us through our own satellites correct yeah how about that they're supposed to be doing
only surveillance of uh of foreign communications but as we've learned in recent years thanks to the
bush administration uh nsa is uh uh targeting the u.s population en masse with um with their
surveillance capabilities to what extent we're not exactly sure but i hear that next month we're
going to hear firsthand from a former nsa employee what is everybody has to ruin surprises today yeah
you know i was getting to that bernie i was getting to that i was going to explain the fan i was going
to explain the whole thing but you know we're going to get to it we're first going to tell the
story because there is more to just going down there and and uh taking a few nice uh snapshots
uh we found out and we kind of suspected this that uh people uh who work for surveillance agencies
don't like it when you surveil them or even uh act a little bit curious uh the fences the barricades
that sort of got the message across uh but there was also and and carl i asked you to do this last
night on the other radio show but um you took a picture of a sign uh that was on the outside of
the perimeter uh and it was a warning sign of all the things that you're not supposed to do
uh and uh you know i i think you did the right thing by taking a picture of it because there's
no way we could read that quickly certainly not in a car and even standing there for a good few
minutes takes time to read it so taking a picture um is is the best way to convey this not only to
ourselves but to all the listeners out there who might be thinking of going down to fort meade
maryland which by the way is off state route 295 it's confusing because that's near the interstate
95 but 295 is actually maryland route 295 it's called the the baltimore washington parkway and
it's uh it's midway down between baltimore and washington you'll see an exit for nsa employees
only but then you'll see another exit for nsa and that's where you can get off at fort meade and
make sure that you don't do anything that this sign tells you not to do um so uh do you have that
sign handy yeah okay why don't you read what's on it yeah i'll start um it says warning restricted
area this area has been declared a restricted area by authority of the director and national
security agency slash chief central security service pursuant to the provision of the
internal security act of 1950 and implementing executive orders and directives unauthorized
entry is prohibited all persons property and vehicles entering or exiting this area are liable
to search by entering this area you consent to search unauthorized removal of classified defense
material or u.s government property governmental property is prohibited unauthorized photography
note taking making of drawings maps or other graphic representations are prohibited unless
specifically authorized by the chief office of security items in the categories listed below are
prohibited within the restricted area and are subject to confiscation and violators may be
prosecuted firearms and ammunition explosives and incendiaries volatile or hazardous substances
photographic and imagery equipment and media recording and sound equipment and media
electronic and computer equipment and media transmitting and receiving equipment and
attachments contraband or illegal substances all of this was on one sign wasn't even that biggest
sign but that was uh what was surrounding the perimeter and uh so you grabbed a picture of
that bernie did anything on that surprise you no i think it's very comprehensive and i like how
they at the end they say and illegal substances yeah i i like that too they just sort of threw
that in by the way don't do anything else illegal but uh don't make any drawings or maps or anything
like that i imagine describing it is probably something they don't want you to do either but
yeah we did it anyway um but um shortly after that the the picture that kyle took was actually
at the museum site which is not technically on their campus you don't have to go through any
kind of a gate for that uh and there was nobody there uh just prior to that we had been in a
parking lot which again was not on their campus and i was trying to to um to throw out a couple
of coffee cups so i i basically uh walked the entire perimeter of the parking lot looking for
a garbage can which i did not find and apparently that set off some kind of security alert uh because
right after kyle took the picture of the sign by the museum uh we were driving away and as we were
driving away we came across a an suv an nsa suv uh that waved for us to stop and before we knew
it there were four nsa police cars around us asking us all kinds of questions such as well
did you come all the way here just to uh just to come to this place and where are you from and how
did you meet and uh you know all kinds of other things that they kept us there for a good 25
minutes but it was um uh am i describing it properly kyle yeah yeah that was basically
the just that they they um wanted to talk to us and just sort of checking out the area and um
traveling around in the state in general looking for um just uh iconic symbols of
of like surveillance and and that whole culture and i'm pretty passionate about uh photography and
um you know what what you're allowed to do and that kind of thing and i think um
photographers should be able to photograph um important institutions or or um you know
government institutions that that are that that are um you know even like this very controversial
or or or whatever it's it's all right uh you know especially you know from a public public roads and
and all that and i don't want to get into that too much but uh it was it's really uh interesting
to visit the facility and see it it was very tough to get a good vantage point uh but it was
it was beautiful weather and uh i don't know they they wanted to uh make a report because i guess we
had walked around the parking lot i guess i don't know i was looking at they have a apparently like
a little walking trail and yeah you were you were looking for a garbage can yeah everything we did
was was off of their property or off of the the main campus property is still uh i guess the nsa
museum is part of nsa uh but the funny thing is yes you were taking pictures we even stopped on
the parkway at one point and and uh made like we had a flat or something so that you could get a
good nice steady shot of the place but we didn't trespass we didn't go onto their property at all
and the funny thing is that when they did stop us it wasn't for photography i don't think they
even were aware that we were doing that they just saw us walking in the parking lot and thought we
were suspicious and you know i have to wonder for nsa police car how many nsa police cars do you
think there are in the first place uh we had the attention a good amount of the attention of the
nsa uh focused on us at that moment and i thought that was just uh you know pretty pretty cool i
don't understand there's a museum it was just closed at the time is that yeah we went on a
saturday and apparently the museum well actually we were there towards sunset as well so i'm not
sure when the museum is open and you know they don't know either because we asked the cops we
asked them two questions where can we get good crabs in baltimore and when is the when is the
museum open and they didn't really know the answer to either one of those things yes um the museum
actually has an interesting history i'll make it brief about i don't know 15 20 years ago um there
was a there was a hotel it was a hotel that museum and nsa the hotel was going out of business and
nsa bought it people used to stay at the hotel when they were visiting the nsa on official business
but then the place was going out of business nsa bought it and they converted it to like a uh
uh members only museum so only people employees of the nsa could uh could view like their history
and stuff like that and um then i think it was the washington post broke a story 15 20 years ago
about this secret museum that nobody's supposed to know about and then after that there were so
many people coming to see it that nsa finally had to take out the classified stuff and say okay
it's open to the public and now it's open i think it's only open during business hours but i was
there a couple of times and it's a it's very impressive it's worth going to you can actually
sit on a cray supercomputer and there's all this there's there's enigma machines there's
really historical stuff going back to the encryption isn't a really important code
breaking and making and breaking is a really important part of our nation's history and
world history frankly and a lot of that is documented there and it's it's worth checking
out you know i i agree and it's uh it's an interesting place to go i've been there myself
uh many years ago but i want more than that i don't want that's that little crumb off the table
i want to see what's going on in the complex what are these people up to are they doing with
my tax dollars what's what's the idea here what's what were they after and i think people should be
allowed to uh to get tours of the place and to have it explained to them because we're funding
it after all and it's uh it's it's just uh it's it's huge it's scary and uh they really uh pay
attention to what you're doing so i think uh we should pay attention to what they're doing as well
there are literally this has been documented by authors such as james banford who's written
several books about the national security agency um put an expert there are several there are
dozens of acres dozens of acres of computers underground there at fort mead so what you see
on top is literally tip of the iceberg that you know that great big black cube of a building that
you saw that's the tip of the iceberg underneath there are dozens of acres of computers and they're
not just like pcs these are the most advanced supercomputers on the planet with optical
processing and quantum processing i mean stuff that is science fiction to us is going on there
so all i'm saying is once a year you have an open house of some sort people wander around and see
what's underneath and just sort of uh you know be impressed by it all and go away thinking wow
it's cool to be an american you know that's that kind of thing i mean i can understand also the
secrecy in that well if if people think that certain encryption standards or whatnot are
secure but in fact they've been broken by the agency um they don't want people to know that
because that way they can keep eavesdropping on it i'm not saying that they have or they haven't but
you know i think oftentimes these research agencies are decades ahead of the research
community well there's just too many secrets in that place and especially when when all you're
doing is walking around and looking at the buildings uh it raises such alarm that makes
me very suspicious of of them uh so um uh you know it's um yes go ahead mike i think you're
right to be suspicious of them like all the evidence we have is that they're up to no good
yeah it seems that way it seems that way but we can't prove it we need to be able to do that
they do some good well tell tell us some of the good they do besides the museum i mean the united
states has uh has missions um that it needs to keep secret all nations do have some legitimate
secrets to to protect themselves um and the nsa doesn't just break other people's other
countries codes they also are the code making organization um and you know they are in charge
of of basically uh information security for the united states like all military government
agencies that have secure information nsa is really involved with ensuring the security of
that information and they also do cold code breaking you know frankly i would rather a
government agency uh you know i'd rather a military which is nsa's part of focus on um
on breaking other people's codes and monitoring stuff and then then like dropping bombs on them
from from man you know unarmed unmanned drones and things like that um you can gain a lot and
you can you can you can prevent some violence and stuff by just eavesdropping and finding out what's
going on but of course it can be also used for other purposes i'm saying they're not all up to no
good hey bernie how do you think they decide where to drop the un the unmanned drone bombs
they're they're there's good they do and there's bad they do um i'm just saying it's not all you
can't paint it with a broad brush uh is is uh is stuxnet one of the things that nsa was involved
with reportedly uh-huh reportedly they uh they actually wrote this stuxnet um uh virus program
not a virus it's a virus what's that computer worm but uh but it actually was a worm yes it
was a worm that that wasn't supposed to worm its way out of uh the iranian nuclear um centrifuge
facilities but it did worm its way out through uh an employee's laptop in an iranian employee's
laptop apparently or at least reportedly and that's kind of interesting i'm kind of amused
that it's become this big scandal now that who leaked who the administration leaked this
information but it's a really interesting story about what our what nsa is doing to try to get
information about what's going on in other places and and even using a computer worm to destroy
centrifuge nuclear centrifuges in iran it's fascinating and there's also a word out that
nsa is looking for uh cyber security experts to help with that kind of thing over the next
uh few years and that's uh it's not as easy as they might have thought there aren't enough
cyber security experts steeped in the skills needed to wage cyber warfare that's a big problem
in nsa they they need more of us to become warriors and uh and fight these battles uh so um
they say they're getting a little help from universities which are either unable or unwilling
to teach students how to exploit network security vulnerabilities so uh interesting things ahead of
course this will be uh discussed in great detail at the hope conference coming up and we have some
more information on that in just a moment uh but i just want to finish up with kyle any um any
concluding uh thoughts or remarks on uh on what happened to us while we were down there
uh yeah i mean it it basically uh opened my eyes a little bit i i um uh basically
feel like uh i don't know you got a chance i got a chance to see it but and i'm glad that
you know we were able to tell the story a little bit and um i don't know i guess it's a routine it
was it was kind of quiet there and and spooky um it was quiet it was a little too quiet uh for my
taste uh but uh i believe in about a month when the hope conference is taking place do you think
we can say that there might be a photograph from the nsa appearing in the 2013 hacker calendar
i don't know i i can't say i i can't say we got some interesting perspectives when we were out
there yeah it's still being analyzed by by our experts all right well kyle uh i want to thank
you for uh for your courage in uh going out taking a picture of that sign reading the sign on the air
and uh and just basically um uh telling everybody what you saw which i think is is very important
so uh we'll talk to you again next time all right uh now for our announcement of uh something
related to uh the nsa uh this was just announced today our second keynote address at this year's
hope number nine conference is going to be delivered by former national security agency
analyst turned whistleblower william binnie uh now uh mike you and i saw william binnie at the
whitney uh museum about a month and a half ago two months ago uh this guy is the real thing he
was inside that complex for 30 years learned an awful lot about how it all worked and uh and and
just what it was that they uh they did in there was what was part of the whole thing and um after
after discovering uh post 9 11 that uh the attention of the nsa was being turned increasingly
towards the american public he decided to uh to become a whistleblower instead and uh and and
stop working for them he says he estimates that the nsa has put together over 20 trillion
transactions as a phone calls emails and all kinds of other forms of data just from americans and um
it's some experts say it's possible that could include copies of almost all of email sent and
received from people who live in the united states encrypted or not uh copies could easily
exist over there so uh william binnie will be giving the uh the keynote address one of the
keynote addresses at the hope conference this july july 13 14 and 15 at the hotel pennsylvania new
york other keynote address will be given by the yes men and they're a whole lot of fun as well in
fact they were in the news last week too hopefully we'll get to that a little later uh and uh more
information on the entire thing go to www.hope.net and um we hope to see you there next next month at
the uh at the conference um steve rambam you're here you made it any any problem any problem
getting uh to the station are they no problem getting here you had my name misspelled downstairs
i did not spell your name someone else did that all right passing the buck i apologize for the
heat i apologize for the loud fan in the background but uh unfortunately uh i don't know we didn't pay
the air conditioning bill or something not sure what's going on uh so now sucks that has hit the
ac system yeah yeah stuxnet uh you know i don't believe our air conditioning system is sufficiently
sophisticated to be affected by stuxnet it could be part of the iranian infrastructure though and
might be affected in that way that's entirely possible well although we do have all this
nuclear fuel here at wbai we need to keep an eye on don't talk about that yeah we're not supposed
to talk about the nuclear um so anyway steve um now that you're here uh you're going to be at the
conference obviously you're at every conference that we give and uh you you always uh i am and
i'm bringing a uh a rather impressive lineup of colleagues with me uh-huh you always do you pack
some some knowingly some unknowingly okay well that's what we're here to discuss you want a
victim is that is that right i do want a victim doesn't sound as bad as it i mean no it sounds
worse than it is what i'm trying to say no it i think it sounds exactly the way it is it's pretty
bad i want someone who will allow me to both conduct a an extremely in-depth investigation
of them a cyber investigation no following of them physically although they will certainly
be followed digitally every place their phone shows up every call they make every posting they
make i think every tweet every photo being followed physically i think is better because
you can turn around and see you can catch the person you can jump on them and and you know
you can hit them with a baseball cap and and change your jacket and slip into the subway yeah
but digitally there's no escape there is no escape and that's that's the point actually i just came
from purchasing a drone which will be at the at the conference i knew this day would come there
will be multiple multiple drones at my event some surveillance drones some attack drones
which will shoot nerf missiles just to anyone who annoys me you're not talking about humans
you're talking about actual uh machines i'm talking about actual flying drones all right
that will be hovering throughout the the very large room that i speak in during the q a session
one drone will will zip over to the people asking questions and the other one will
be available if there's a uh an annoying person this i have to see you will okay i hope so you
can be our our testimony if you like you're not you're not kidding us no i'm not getting actual
drones i'm not kidding my friend uh my friend yuri who is uh chief of cyber security for
chief of it security for a very large new york hospital is going to be flying one drone and i've
got my buddy bob who's coming in from michigan who flies drones for real is going to be flying
the attack drone because the attack drone how's it going to get inside the hotel room
well they're they're the the uh the surveillance drone is only uh 40 inches by 40 okay so he's not
actually going to be flying it he'll be no no it'll be flying absolutely he won't be inside
it is what i'm saying no no flying it i figured a drone a drone is these drones are unmanned
drones okay i mean they are they are uavs uh-huh all right all right the the uh the attack drone
is that we may have two uh we're trying to uh see how good they are in swarms we want to see if we
can replicate real world swarms inside an enclosed area and if we can i will have two drones hovering
over me ready to to pounce on anyone who asks a question i really don't want to answer i think
it's great that we're using the same technology that we're trying to find out all this secret
information about and we're just sort of taking it over ourselves we're not gonna have a couple
of air force guys in fort oaxaca flying it from 3 000 miles away let's hope this will be this will
be on site oh so you're thinking about having swarms of uh attack drones inside enclosed space
i can't help but think i don't know if is two a swarm no two's not a swarm
well there'll be there's going to be two drones one attack drone one surveillance drone
there may be a second attack drone i think at that point three is is is a mini swarm there may
be a swarm because i think a lot of people are going to bring drones to this conference i don't
know how that's got started maybe we can shoot them down that might happen too we we've already
had us some uh drones of various sorts uh at the conference before but i'm talking about humans now
aren't you i can tell oh you know we don't want to go to that we have a talk on drones i think
a talk on drones maybe maybe we should have these drones come in and attend the talk on drones maybe
the drones just run the conference you know because i could sure use a break it'd save us a
lot of work do you remember that movie i forget what it was where at the at the beginning of the
movie it starts out there's a there's a teacher and then the students start putting down digital
tape recorders and at the end of the movie there's a room full of digital tape recorders
and the camera pans up to the front and there's a there's a big reel-to-reel giving the lecture
rocky firefly rocky firefly 40 points that that was a movie called real genius which is a great
hacker film for many reasons that is correct it's it's a great movie that's what i think
is eventually going to happen i think hope like 52k or whatever it is at some point
will be will be will be just cyborgs giving the talks and attending my i i intend to when i die
actually find some bender like creature and put my brain in the in the robot that's uh
that's i want to i want to keep attending you know hopes through the 23rd century and they're
going to continue at the hotel pennsylvania because that building will never be torn down
and even with cyborgs and and uh no it'll probably be covered by rubble during the
during the first drug second set well second thermonuclear war sure okay hey steve go ahead
steve uh getting back to your request for a victim um you're going to track this victim
using all open source methods is that right well we're going to do exactly what we did to
rick dakin but we are also going to expand to use the new technologies tracking and amalgamating
posts and determining where the person was at the time of the post and using that post to further
de-anonymize the person's other posts one of the things we're going to be covering quite a bit
in in my uh seminar this year is is third-party de-anonymization of your activity on the net how
you it is absolutely impossible uh or functionally impossible for you to be anonymous anymore on the
net and how the various online services because they want to know where you are and what you're
doing and what you like and who your friends are are colonizing the web where even if you don't
check into their particular infrastructure and by that i mean google or facebook or what have you
their various like buttons and monitoring of cookies and things like that know where you are
and what you're doing anyway even if you're not logged into their system now we have a backdoor
way to to utilize that tracking as i might add so does the u.s government by the way when you said
it's 20 trillion transactions let me tell you you didn't read that carefully it's 20 trillion
trillion transactions it is 20 septillion transactions to date um i was quoting what
he said so well it's written down wrong every phone call every email every cyber connect to a
certain type of system i mean right now the the u.s government is getting into and this is going
to be another part of my talk something called the internet of things which is your refrigerator
has an ethernet port you can text your stove to have it start cooking a casserole before you come
home even even um even apple is starting to incorporate with with ir6 location alerts where
if they if you have purchased a 30-day prescription for i don't know i'll say
xanax okay um and it's the 29th day and you are passing your drugstore it will send you a text
saying your prescription is expiring you better go in and renew it you're not supposed to read
text while you're driving well what can i tell you especially on xanax yes well right especially
on xanax well right now i've got the drugstore calling me reminding me constantly at any rate
what i need is a privacy victim ideally i want someone who actually has a life uh someone what
do you mean by that someone has a life well i'd like them to actually be someone who who doesn't
sit in their basement six days a week i'd like to be able to actually track their activities
i'd like to be able to track their purchases uh when they go out with their friends what they do
where they go i would like to be able to show that it is possible today for an investigator
especially a governmental investigator that has a backdoor to google and we're going to be talking
about google backdoors by the way and facebook backdoors google and facebook are so deeply in bed
with the i had a a member of the u.s intelligence community tell me and i thought this was the most
fantastic quote ever that google is this administration's haliburton but haliburton was
for bush 41 and 43 google is to our vulcan president obama we just lost our net access
and i don't think it's probably not an accident probably not an accident wow suddenly we are no
longer uh live streaming let's ask one one quick thing uh you don't want someone obviously with
outstanding warrants or anything like that because you're going to find out about it
uh i am an investigator i am very much uh uh ideologically different from the people in this
room and and although i've certainly covered for a few people in this organization but uh if i find
out you have a warrant uh you will go to jail yes please don't uh please don't call me if you have
an outstanding warrant or uh that's common sense or or i'm gonna find child porn on your computer
or anything like that i mean don't be a knucklehead about this be a real person who stupidly believes
you have nothing to hide yeah there's plenty of people like that so you're basically looking for
a volunteer to just live their life as they were before and then be surprised at what you can find
out about well you know i don't know how surprised they're gonna be the people that come to the hope
conference are pretty hip i have to tell you one reason why i love doing the hope conference
is because i can talk in shorthand i don't have to explain every single little thing when i talk
about ipv6 nobody goes huh what's that but even with that your your talks still go three hours
so imagine how long they would go if you had to explain it well you don't have to imagine it's a
two-day seminar i just gave a full day seminar to the investigative reporter team at the at the
miami herald i'm giving a two-day course through the society of professional investigators
which by the way if you are an investigator i i got to do one semi-promo shout out here for
probably the best investigative and security fraternal group in this area there's a group
called spy society of professional investigators their website is spy spi online.info if you are
an investigator a computer security tech a uh a security person a law enforcement officer
a forensic specialist any of the fields allied to law enforcement and investigations this is
probably the most remarkable group of people you've ever seen and i urge you to join i have just
become the education chairman of that group so i'm going to be setting up
um a a 50-hour course not a straight 50 hours but 50 hours over uh you can do it you can do
yeah i probably could uh at the next hope um and in fact let me let me tell you spy is going to
authorize i have found six talks including two of the talks given by the eff attorney six talks
at hope that we are authorizing for our bcip board certified investigative professional program
that if you attend these talks we will issue you ces and we will give you credits towards
the credential so if you're an investigator uh who either needs ces or you want to participate
in the bcip program contact me or contact one of the other members of of the spy board and we'll
tell you what we are authorizing as far as hope we're not authorizing all the talks we really
don't want to give continuing education for some you know knucklehead teaching you how to do silly
things but hope has a lot of seminars that are very much not knuckleheaded and we're impressed
by him and we're gonna we're gonna uh issue ces if you attend them how do people get ahold of you
to do this me uh i i probably shouldn't do this but uh our our public contact point for my
investigative agency is pallorium at pallorium.com that's p-a-l-l-o-r-i-u-m at pallorium
same spelling.com my phone number is 2-1-2-9-6-9-0-2-8-6 2-1-2-9-6-9-0-2-8-6
if you want to volunteer contact me or contact what's the off the hook address
oth at 2600.com oth at 2600.com or call me um or call emmanuel i'll give you his home phone number
yeah let's just uh i'm kidding uh but but we really do want to volunteer and and trust me
you will help make our seminar exponentially better there's nothing like like real world
examples of how these things work and if you want more information on the hope conference of course
go to the website www.hope.net that's h-o-p-e hackers on planet earth rob now to take it back
for a moment you very briefly mentioned rick dakin but uh for somebody who may not know that
whole story can you give us the really short version of what that was all about
short version no i can give you a brief version uh rick dakin is a very impressive guy who
probably would kill me if he bumped into me because we are actually still doing a book together and
it's about 90% done and the remaining 10% has been sitting there for two years and i haven't
finished it so entirely my fault rick dakin is a a very well-known writer he wrote geek mafia
and a number of other books he's a a pretty remarkable guy and on this program on off the
hook one night i put out a call for uh for a victim and he volunteered and we did a remarkable
remarkable uh in-depth analysis of him and actually uh used it for a talk now the talk
was ever so slightly delayed because in 2006 the um the fbi despite the fact that i'm an
investigator and i routinely work with the federal government and with federal agencies
the fbi was rather annoyed that i found out that one of their chief informants one of their high
echelon informants was essentially an escaped mental patient and that's not an exaggeration
the story is even wilder than that so six agents from raid jackets and weapons and whatever stormed
into the whole conference and took me out of there in handcuffs as i was on my way into the room to
give my talk and we all thought we were the ones in danger and instead they haul you off that's
the amazing thing yeah i mean mind you the charges were dropped fairly instantly and the
two federal prosecutors that authorized that were as the saying goes returned to the private sector
and i amazingly still to this day have no criminal record uh but uh i had to wait until we
reconvened a few months later at the stevens institute of technology for hope 2600.1 i think
it was called or the last hope version number six yeah that last talk 6.1 or whatever the heck it
was and uh and uh tell you what it was a packed room it was a major uh major event and which which
by the way the fbi was considerate enough to to attend and and and sit quietly well they always
attend they're always in there somewhere sometimes they're quiet they are my talks so the victim that
can be anywhere in the world anywhere in the country no no no no i i well look ideally it
the following criteria uh should be met number one it should be someone who actually has a life
goes out does things second of all it should be somebody who's going to in advance sign a
ferocious frightening release that we're going to send them you're going to have to sign a release
number three what would be best would be if this is somebody who's actually going to attend hope
so they can be right there as i reveal our digital proctology please don't chicken out
at the last minute because that uh that happened in 2004 ruins everything ruins the whole thing we
did an unbelievable review on a guy who's a journalist who's a who's a well-known journalist
i won't say his name but uh the day before my talk his attorney called me i said i have a release he
said okay we'll sue you anyway yeah and you know what do you expect if you're going to have steve
look into you he's going to find out things so don't be surprised by that i guess also we should
point out if you're a kid probably there's not enough on you yet you might be an interesting
person but nobody knows yet right yeah and and and and by the way if you're a kid you may not
have the legal ability to sign a release um you know i don't want to put up a a little walking
digital icon that shows school pizza paula home school pizza paula home i want to have somebody
who goes out who works who goes to clubs who does strange things who you know we we have a chance of
actually embarrassing at some point okay as far as uh actual private information such as home phone
numbers social security numbers is that something that this person can expect to get out to everybody
um no but i will i will at some point hand him a piece of paper and say is this in fact your social
security number and he'll go oh crap yes is this your home phone number yes it is uh does your
social security number trace to all of these things uh was your cell phone in the following
840 locations during the past three weeks and that sort of thing yes a lot of it is going to
be revealed i mean there are some things things that will allow other people to do you harm or
annoy you we won't put out there like a social security number we won't put out your full date
of birth we won't put your home phone number well that's more than uh corporations will do
because they'll they'll give all that information away you know that's an interesting thing i came
in late so i don't know if you actually talked about the spokio case no we haven't talked about
that we don't tell us what's going on well for those of you who don't know what spokio is spokio
is you know they they could have been so much more than they are because they have the right idea
they go out and they suck down all of the various social media sites facebook and myspace and
google plus and and and flickr and so on and so on and so on and so on and foursquare and instagram
and every everything out there and they build a profile of everyone based on their social media
activity and what's on their social media sites now they needed to monetize that and what they
did was they started selling it to human resource companies and credit bureaus and background check
people for pre-employment screening and credit checks and things like that and they got spanked
the ftc which is easily the most useless worthless federal agency on the planet no teeth whatsoever
no genuine understanding of most of the things that they police and regulate uh for once did
the right thing they jumped on spokio and spokio signed a consent decree that said we don't admit
we did anything wrong but in the future these particular things we won't do and they paid an
eight hundred thousand dollar fine now a couple of things you need to know first of all eight
hundred thousand dollars was basically cost of doing business for them meaningless second of all
the ftc consent decree was meaningless third of all nothing that spokio did initially was illegal
the fact of the matter is and and the most important thing frankly for anybody to know
about the current state of affairs on the net is that google and facebook and myspace and flickr
and instagram uh and and foursquare and all of these various other companies are private companies
you do not have any right or any control over the information that they gather if you are a moron
enough to submit it or your friends submit it on your behalf or they go out and get it because
essentially it's in the public domain tough everything that spokio did until the point
where they sold that data for pre-employment screening purposes was totally kosher
unfortunately for spokio there's something called the federal fair credit report employment act and
the federal fair credit reporting act which says if you issue what's called an investigative
consumer report that reports on somebody's credit worthiness or worthiness to be hired or something
like that that is federally regulated so gathering the information was kosher compiling was kosher
selling it was kosher but selling it for pre-employment and selling it for credit screening
was not kosher you have a duty first of all to let the consumer meaning the person you're
gathering the information on know about it you have a duty to at least in theory i mean the credit
bureau's damn sure do it but in theory you are supposed to make your best efforts to make sure
it's accurate spokio's information sucks beyond belief if you go to spokio and you check on
somebody's date of birth or activities or people in the household or whatever 50 to 75 of it will
be wrong now i'm saying all of this as somebody who owns peoplefinder.net one of my agency
subsidiaries is the largest privately held online investigative support service in the country
i own peoplefinder.net and i can tell you i have i don't care who you are whoever is listening to
this broadcast i have your home address i have where you work i have your social security number
i have your date of birth i have all your phone numbers i have your criminal record i have every
time you appeared in court i have your real property your voter registration your uccs
for me to continue i would need a second appearance on this show all legal for two reasons number one
i gathered it and compiled it legally second of all i don't sell it for pre-employment screening
or for credit granting in fact every report that we issue says this report is not suitable
and cannot have been requested for pre-employment purposes or for any fcra regulated purpose
so i'm okay spokio wasn't the important thing to take away from the spokio incident
is a you me and everybody are screwed because there is no regulation on any of this data
and b you have no control whatsoever on how this data is used well you know when you say things
like that it makes me feel kind of helpless like there's nothing that can be done well should we
just live our lives thinking that there's nothing we can do no and and and on the contrary there
needs to be at least among the people who think uh which is why i love giving these seminars at at
at any 2600 event because people come who are actually i mean the my definition of a hacker
and the real definition of a hacker is not what what a lot of knuckleheads think but it's people
who are inquisitive who want to take things apart they want to take their life apart they want to
understand everything down to the to the root level including life and and when i talk about
these things that at hope i suspect that the vast majority of the people who leave the privacy is
dead seminars or privacy is decomposing at this point seminar what are we calling it you know
privacy of post-mortem yeah something like that whatever whatever the resurrection maybe in the
whatever right right three days later steven jobs rose okay um you know uh people who attend
these seminars and learn what's being done to them take proactive steps but but the vast majority out
there have never read a terms of service they have never looked at the facebook privacy policy for
example and and the average person is being manipulated you know you post on facebook i just
got my college diploma i have a new girlfriend i have a new pet um you know i'm in drug rehab
things like that and all of your friends because zuckerberg is a brilliant little troll um all of
your and and he set it up to work this way all of your friends go oh that's great that's wonderful
and basically you get encouragement for having posted that positive reinforcement and you keep
posting more and more and more and more but that information is not just for the friends who are
going attaboy emmanuel it's for zuckerberg and his ad sellers absolutely steve rambam always a
pleasure having you on the show and we are looking forward so much to having you give your seminar
at the hope conference coming up next month www.hope.net i'm looking forward to it for yeah
all the information on that at hope.net and again if you want to be steve's victim you can
write to him the address again the pallorium address is what pallorium at pallorium.com or
what is it off the hook oth at 2600.com if you want to write to the to the radio show and well
just thanks for keeping us on our toes and telling us what's going on out there and absolutely we
look forward to seeing you next month in in person at the conference and of course also
the NSA whistleblower william binnie will be giving one of the keynote addresses a lot of
people from different walks of life and and different backgrounds coming together for a
meeting of the mind it's going to be really amazing again more information at www.hope.net
and the yes men giving the other keynote address and about a hundred other talks
and projects and and fun activities and things like that now one one final thing that we have
to do tonight is um it's a say goodbye to red hacked who i kicked off the show earlier today
but actually in seriousness you were going to go anyway is that right i was planning on going
anyway do you remember your first show uh no i remember it was a long time ago it must be what
like seven you were like six years old i think when you came in your voice was really high back
in 2003 maybe yeah it was uh it was something it's been nine nine it's been quite a ride moving
across the country yeah security clearance yeah you can't hang out with people like us anymore
or any um any i mean of course we'll have you back on uh during hope i'm sure you'll be here
and other times and on the phone as as occasion warrants but anything that you'd like to um
to say uh to sum it all up uh from your perspective things to say to the audience or
advice perhaps or that's been a great time and i hope you guys keep it up and you know keep keep
keep doing what you're doing and let me let me come by the studio when i'm in new york oh you
welcome anytime as long as you can get past the barrier downstairs i'll make sure to let you know
in advance all right folks uh best of luck to redhack as he ventures out west and the wagon
train to find out what kind of fortune awaits out there i do hope he doesn't get cholera on the way
well you know whatever is fashionable lose any oxen
all right well we'll certainly see you again in the future as well as uh all the other amazing
people that uh that build the various things that we do off the hook 2600 uh hackers on planet
earth things like that uh hopefully next week we'll have heat in this place not heat no we have
heat now hopefully we'll have air conditioning in this place and that that fan won't be on for the
entire show but we'll see you know it'll it'll it'll be interesting part of the whole wvai
experience so uh write to us again oth at 2600.com until next time emmanuel for off the hook have a
good night
bye
bye
come on
man
oh
bite, bite, bite, bite, bite, bite, bite, 
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, 
Woo! Man, they always have great music here at the Off The Hook show.
I love Wednesdays. Wednesdays has great radideo at WBAI.