Off The Hook - 2012-07-04

[00:32.370 --> 00:36.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you are listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:36.630 --> 00:37.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:37.870 --> 00:40.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Time, once again, for Off the Hook.
[00:40.670 --> 00:45.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Trust me, it's vital that we make the public hate the phone company.
[00:45.830 --> 00:47.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, really hate it.
[00:47.530 --> 00:53.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I can't explain all the details right now, but not only America, but the whole world depends on what we do here right now.
[00:54.130 --> 00:55.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Believe me.
[01:00.530 --> 01:04.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:05.950 --> 01:10.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:11.130 --> 01:15.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: We couldn't get much worse, good.
[01:16.050 --> 01:18.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bum-dilly-bum, but the best is paid for worst.
[01:19.350 --> 01:21.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope that's understood.
[01:21.470 --> 01:22.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bum-dilly-bum!
[01:56.370 --> 01:57.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the very good evening to everybody.
[01:57.850 --> 01:58.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: The program is Off the Hook.
[01:58.610 --> 02:01.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, the 4th of July.
[02:01.610 --> 02:03.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:03.410 --> 02:03.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hello.
[02:03.910 --> 02:04.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Rob T.
[02:04.470 --> 02:04.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: Firefly.
[02:05.150 --> 02:05.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[02:05.730 --> 02:05.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Kyle.
[02:06.350 --> 02:06.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hi there.
[02:07.030 --> 02:08.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: And Jim in the studio.
[02:09.630 --> 02:12.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: Jim's not feeling above the weather, I guess.
[02:12.250 --> 02:14.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, it's kind of sucky outside, I know.
[02:14.710 --> 02:17.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: Down somewhere in Pennsylvania, I believe, is Bernie S.
[02:17.490 --> 02:18.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[02:19.510 --> 02:22.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: And Bernie, you want to try and guess what that excerpt was that we just heard?
[02:23.430 --> 02:24.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Was that from...
[02:24.570 --> 02:26.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: I just heard a fraction of it.
[02:26.870 --> 02:28.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Something from Back in the Future?
[02:28.970 --> 02:30.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, that's a good guess, though.
[02:31.470 --> 02:32.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: But no, no.
[02:32.290 --> 02:34.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Back to the Future was not nearly as cerebral as that.
[02:34.970 --> 02:35.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[02:35.510 --> 02:36.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Rob T.
[02:36.150 --> 02:37.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Firefly, you have a knowing look on your face.
[02:37.970 --> 02:39.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: That was the President's Analyst.
[02:39.410 --> 02:40.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wow, you did know.
[02:40.450 --> 02:40.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, yes!
[02:41.830 --> 02:45.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: Kyle and I saw this film the other day just by mere chance.
[02:45.410 --> 02:48.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: And kind of didn't expect what happened to have happened.
[02:48.950 --> 02:50.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a film from 1967.
[02:50.430 --> 03:01.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's got all the usual 60s jazz in it, all kinds of running around in, you know, VW campers and seeing old New York City streets when they didn't have yellow lights or don't walk signs.
[03:02.550 --> 03:07.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: And basically, it's about this psychiatrist who gets a gig being the President's Analyst.
[03:08.150 --> 03:11.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that means that he has to put his whole life on hold, move to D.C.
[03:11.750 --> 03:18.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: And somehow, everywhere he goes, there are flashing red lights that whenever they flash, that means he has to go immediately to the President who has just found time to see his Analyst.
[03:18.870 --> 03:21.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it kind of wreaks havoc with his life.
[03:22.230 --> 03:28.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, of course, leaders from all the rest of the world are very interested in finding out what he has found out from the President.
[03:28.990 --> 03:30.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: So he's always in danger.
[03:30.570 --> 03:35.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: And about two-thirds through the film, it just kind of goes off in a totally different direction.
[03:35.850 --> 03:46.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: And all of a sudden, instead of all the countries of the world being the real threat, the real enemy, the most dangerous entity possibly known is TPC.
[03:46.390 --> 03:48.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: You've seen TPC everywhere, little stickers.
[03:48.950 --> 03:50.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that is the phone company.
[03:51.570 --> 03:53.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's just... it's unbelievable.
[03:53.210 --> 03:55.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: I can't believe I've never seen this film before.
[03:55.390 --> 04:01.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they have this master plan of sorts that basically they've been working on.
[04:01.950 --> 04:04.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: They kidnap the President's Analyst.
[04:05.230 --> 04:11.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this robotic figure explains to him just what the phone company has been up to.
[04:11.250 --> 04:11.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's take a listen.
[04:12.030 --> 04:12.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: This lasts about a minute.
[04:14.150 --> 04:18.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: There are quite a few people who actually dislike the phone company.
[04:18.470 --> 04:26.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: And because of this irrational dislike of their own publicly owned company, they often don't pay their bills and sometimes even damage the equipment.
[04:27.610 --> 04:33.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, to look at that hand, you'd never dream you were also looking at a miracle in modern communications, would you?
[04:34.150 --> 04:44.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks to the science of microelectronics, you are looking at a complete telephonic receiver and transmitter, we call it the cerebrum communicator, or the CC for short.
[04:44.410 --> 04:50.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: This dandy little device can actually perform every function of the old-fashioned telephone and more.
[04:50.490 --> 04:53.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it does it without any costly maintenance.
[04:53.650 --> 04:56.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Without telephone poles, without wires, without exchanges.
[04:56.970 --> 05:01.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Without anything, in fact, except another CC in another location.
[05:01.750 --> 05:04.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: And now you're probably wondering, why have we made it so small?
[05:05.590 --> 05:10.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because it will be in and powered by your own brain.
[05:12.370 --> 05:12.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[05:13.770 --> 05:19.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, can you believe that 1967, they were basically throwing these ideas around?
[05:19.590 --> 05:21.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: And what do you think, Carl?
[05:21.610 --> 05:23.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: It was pretty remarkable, wasn't it?
[05:23.470 --> 05:26.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I couldn't believe that they were talking about this that long ago.
[05:26.730 --> 05:31.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it only makes me wonder what's going on today, like what real technologies like that exist.
[05:31.730 --> 05:38.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because a lot of different media and programs have had different technology that's actually come true in various ways.
[05:38.130 --> 05:40.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: You get that a lot when people talk about Star Trek and stuff.
[05:40.590 --> 05:45.630]  [SPEAKER_12]: But this is pretty funny and very, very interesting, considering its age.
[05:46.310 --> 05:50.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: So we recommend that film wholeheartedly, The President's Analyst.
[05:50.650 --> 05:51.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Have you ever seen it, Bernie?
[05:51.610 --> 05:52.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have.
[05:52.050 --> 05:52.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've seen it several times.
[05:53.130 --> 05:54.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: I just didn't recognize that clip.
[05:54.310 --> 06:00.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: But it's one of my favorites, with many homages in it to the phone company.
[06:00.550 --> 06:02.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I even use that, the ringtone.
[06:02.410 --> 06:07.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know that special ringtone when the President's Analyst's phone rings, when the President's calling?
[06:07.410 --> 06:12.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have that on my cell phone, because it's so classic.
[06:12.330 --> 06:12.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[06:13.930 --> 06:14.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Cool.
[06:14.610 --> 06:21.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that's something to look for if you're looking for an interesting film to see.
[06:21.730 --> 06:28.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, we've had some news today from Europe about the ACTA Treaty.
[06:28.790 --> 06:37.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: And what happened was the European Parliament has voted against signing up to the controversial anti-counterfeiting trade agreement.
[06:38.550 --> 06:42.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this is something that we've been talking about here for quite a few weeks.
[06:43.290 --> 06:48.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Most people, probably even in Europe, but certainly in America, don't realize how impossible this is.
[06:48.610 --> 06:56.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: The European Parliament has never before voted down any treaty that they were told by this other entity, the European Commission, to approve.
[06:56.550 --> 06:58.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: And this is the first time they voted it down.
[06:58.670 --> 06:59.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they voted it down overwhelmingly.
[06:59.970 --> 07:02.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know if you have the vote total in front of you.
[07:02.390 --> 07:02.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: I do.
[07:03.690 --> 07:04.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: 478 to 39.
[07:05.310 --> 07:05.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[07:05.650 --> 07:06.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.
[07:07.110 --> 07:16.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so I really want to congratulate and thank the people of Europe for putting pressure on their European parliamentarians to stop this thing.
[07:17.490 --> 07:18.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, absolutely.
[07:19.690 --> 07:22.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, well, Kyle, maybe you want to describe what happened in Poland.
[07:22.830 --> 07:23.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[07:23.230 --> 07:31.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know if any of you guys saw this, but I was looking around at some of the news around this this morning, and I found this awesome picture of members of Polish parliament.
[07:31.190 --> 07:38.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they all had Guy Fawkes masks, and they were holding them up very, very seriously in protest.
[07:38.850 --> 07:41.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this picture is just, it's really, really great.
[07:41.450 --> 07:45.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because you have all these guys in suits, and they're holding on to these things fiercely.
[07:46.090 --> 07:50.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Some of them not so much, but they all sort of were unified and made that statement.
[07:50.710 --> 08:00.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it's sort of an odd way for parliamentarians and suits, those types of politicians and stuff to be protesting in that way.
[08:00.790 --> 08:07.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: But I think it speaks to the passion and the overwhelming, like, dissent for this kind of stuff.
[08:07.830 --> 08:08.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[08:08.250 --> 08:15.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the Guy Fawkes mask itself, of course, nowadays, among activists, it's more of a reference to V for Vendetta and its use in that film.
[08:15.370 --> 08:20.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: But for anyone who's up on European history, it's really funny to think of parliamentarians wearing the mask.
[08:21.670 --> 08:22.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[08:22.210 --> 08:24.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: And there was one guy who didn't put the mask on, right?
[08:24.570 --> 08:24.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: It was...
[08:26.150 --> 08:27.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: You got to look up this picture.
[08:27.210 --> 08:28.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: How can we find that picture, Kyle?
[08:28.670 --> 08:30.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: This Polish parliament, I guess?
[08:30.410 --> 08:30.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[08:30.870 --> 08:37.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was the main photo, a very, very large photo, just under the title and the subtitle from a Telegraph article.
[08:38.190 --> 08:43.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the name of the article is, European Parliament Rejects ACTA Piracy Treaty.
[08:43.570 --> 08:44.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[08:44.310 --> 08:44.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[08:44.630 --> 08:46.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you'll see...
[08:46.970 --> 08:49.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Why don't our legislators do things like this?
[08:49.550 --> 08:51.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: It just seems so with it and cool.
[08:52.150 --> 08:52.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know?
[08:52.570 --> 08:53.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: It doesn't happen at all.
[08:53.730 --> 08:56.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because when they do things like that, it's not with it and cool.
[08:57.330 --> 08:59.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I mean, these guys don't look all that with it and cool themselves.
[09:00.010 --> 09:00.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, no, no.
[09:00.230 --> 09:03.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: But it's usually in favor of some, like, new repression.
[09:03.590 --> 09:03.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[09:03.930 --> 09:05.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just love that they were into it.
[09:05.530 --> 09:10.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I don't know how they were convinced and who ran off the copies of the masks and got these guys to do it.
[09:10.330 --> 09:12.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, I mean, it was pretty unified.
[09:12.770 --> 09:14.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, pretty much every single one of them is holding it up.
[09:15.110 --> 09:16.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: And some of them are smiling.
[09:16.690 --> 09:18.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, the one guy that's not wearing it is smiling.
[09:18.650 --> 09:21.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, some of them, as I said, are holding it with two hands.
[09:22.510 --> 09:25.930]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's just a really, really cool symbol in light of this news.
[09:25.930 --> 09:28.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, I'd like to play an excerpt.
[09:28.130 --> 09:43.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Actually, I'd like to play a very short film that was made in Germany about this whole controversy before the vote that just sort of kind of wraps it all up and explains what ACTA is all about, probably better than we could.
[09:43.470 --> 09:43.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: Take a listen.
[09:43.850 --> 09:48.690]  [SPEAKER_00]: Can you imagine your internet service provider policing everything you do online?
[09:50.710 --> 09:54.350]  [SPEAKER_00]: Can you imagine generic drugs that could save lives being banned?
[09:58.190 --> 10:03.430]  [SPEAKER_00]: Can you imagine seeds that could feed thousands being controlled and withheld in the name of patents?
[10:04.570 --> 10:07.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: This will become reality with ACTA.
[10:08.150 --> 10:11.750]  [SPEAKER_00]: ACTA is the anti-counterfeeding trade agreement.
[10:13.070 --> 10:17.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: Disguised as a trade agreement, ACTA goes much, much further than that.
[10:19.330 --> 10:25.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: For the past three years, ACTA has been negotiated in secret by 39 countries.
[10:26.230 --> 10:30.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: But the negotiators are not democratically elected representatives.
[10:30.870 --> 10:34.810]  [SPEAKER_00]: They don't represent us, but they are deciding laws behind our backs.
[10:37.150 --> 10:43.130]  [SPEAKER_00]: Bypassing our democratic processes, they impose new criminal sanctions to stop online file sharing.
[10:44.870 --> 10:56.610]  [SPEAKER_00]: ACTA aims to make internet service and access providers legally responsible for what their users do online, turning them into private copyright police and judge, censoring their networks.
[10:59.130 --> 11:02.410]  [SPEAKER_00]: The chilling effects on free speech would be terrible.
[11:04.550 --> 11:15.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: In the name of patents, ACTA would give large corporations the power to stop generic drugs before they reach the people who need them, and to stop the use of certain seeds for crops.
[11:17.050 --> 11:20.470]  [SPEAKER_00]: The European Parliament will soon vote on ACTA.
[11:21.110 --> 11:27.070]  [SPEAKER_00]: This vote will be the occasion to say no, once and for all, to this dangerous treaty.
[11:28.370 --> 11:32.970]  [SPEAKER_00]: As citizens, we must urge our representatives to reject ACTA.
[11:37.820 --> 11:39.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: And of course, that is what happened today.
[11:40.220 --> 11:43.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: The European Parliament overwhelmingly voting against ACTA.
[11:44.200 --> 11:57.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: However, countries that have signed the agreement are the United States, Australia, Canada, Japan, Morocco, New Zealand, Singapore, and South Korea, although none of these countries has yet ratified it.
[11:57.180 --> 12:02.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the EU vote will not affect... I'm just playing the end credits to that film.
[12:02.280 --> 12:03.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's kind of cool sounding.
[12:03.960 --> 12:06.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: The EU vote, of course, is not going to affect any of those countries.
[12:06.560 --> 12:07.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, I don't know.
[12:08.200 --> 12:09.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: What does it mean to the future, Mike?
[12:09.840 --> 12:11.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Who made the film, do you know?
[12:11.220 --> 12:12.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Who made the film?
[12:12.020 --> 12:13.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, just some Germans.
[12:13.520 --> 12:19.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, it was uploaded to YouTube by La Quadrature.
[12:19.700 --> 12:20.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Does that help?
[12:20.960 --> 12:22.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wait, say that again.
[12:22.320 --> 12:22.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: You said it so nicely.
[12:23.060 --> 12:25.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: La Quadrature du Net, or something like that.
[12:25.700 --> 12:27.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: They've spoken at a bunch of conferences, and they're...
[12:27.880 --> 12:28.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: They're French, isn't that German?
[12:29.360 --> 12:29.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[12:30.020 --> 12:30.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[12:30.680 --> 12:32.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I'm trying to go to their website now.
[12:33.060 --> 12:35.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: L-Q-R-D-E-N dot F-R, I think.
[12:36.180 --> 12:37.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: But regardless, yeah.
[12:37.220 --> 12:37.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, well...
[12:37.940 --> 12:40.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: La Quadrature du Net, and it's all in French.
[12:41.040 --> 12:41.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oui.
[12:41.180 --> 12:41.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[12:42.440 --> 12:43.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, there's a whole thing about active...
[12:43.800 --> 12:45.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: But the thing is, you can get the word out.
[12:45.920 --> 12:55.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: They obviously did, and so many other people, marched for this, and just basically did what we did for SOPA over here, and hopefully killed that once and for all.
[12:55.140 --> 12:58.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, and it's no surprise that La Quadrature is behind this kind of video and stuff.
[12:58.760 --> 13:01.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: They've done a lot with, like, net neutrality and those kinds of issues.
[13:01.720 --> 13:10.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, it's actually really good that they're putting out these kinds of things so people can get an understanding of it in sort of a really accessible way.
[13:10.260 --> 13:18.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think it would be surprising if it was ratified anyplace after this, because how do they move ahead without the EU working with them?
[13:18.240 --> 13:19.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's going to be very difficult.
[13:20.560 --> 13:21.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I hope they don't.
[13:22.680 --> 13:26.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, they said 39 countries were part of this.
[13:26.260 --> 13:27.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: 27 of them are the EU.
[13:28.080 --> 13:29.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, all those 27 are now out of it.
[13:30.720 --> 13:34.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: And maybe there will be some treaty among the remaining 12.
[13:36.240 --> 13:42.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Certainly, many of these countries need no help from the outside to create bad laws for their own citizens, but...
[13:42.580 --> 13:44.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, they said 22 countries in the EU.
[13:44.480 --> 13:45.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, I'm not sure.
[13:45.260 --> 13:47.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe there's five that aren't part of it somehow.
[13:47.540 --> 13:47.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe.
[13:48.200 --> 13:48.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know.
[13:48.800 --> 13:49.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, Mike.
[13:49.760 --> 13:50.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[13:50.400 --> 13:56.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: Would it be a good guess to think that the United States, U.S.
[13:56.480 --> 14:04.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: State Department pressured some or many of these other countries into enacting this legislation in those countries?
[14:04.500 --> 14:19.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, I have no specific information, but I'm sure that many entities in the United States were behind this thing, the entertainment industry in particular, and a lot of times they can get the State Department to do what they want, so...
[14:19.220 --> 14:24.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, the important thing is it didn't pass in the EU, and that's major.
[14:24.560 --> 14:36.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: And a lot of those countries that may or may not be, like, based in the U.S., they end up being, like, global entities, especially, like, big media conglomerates and stuff like that, and movie production companies, so...
[14:36.300 --> 14:36.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[14:36.840 --> 14:46.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, July 4th, 2012, is the day that ACTA may have meant its end, and that they may have discovered the God Particle, but that's a whole other story.
[14:46.240 --> 14:56.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: We should point out that the European Union is so, like, weird and undemocratic that this could still come back, but hopefully it won't.
[14:56.840 --> 14:58.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you think people would just let that happen, though?
[15:00.240 --> 15:03.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a very weirdly run organization, the EU.
[15:03.420 --> 15:11.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, they put... they hold up signs, and they act all very differently from our elected representatives, so I have some hope.
[15:11.500 --> 15:26.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, like with any large law that's bad for the populace and put out there by people with lots of money, you know, don't think that it won't just get put to the vote again, slightly disguised as something else with, you know, some nicer ribbons on it.
[15:26.920 --> 15:27.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: A different acronym.
[15:28.100 --> 15:28.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[15:28.380 --> 15:29.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, they always try.
[15:29.820 --> 15:33.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: We can never take our eyes away from this, so...
[15:33.880 --> 15:35.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it is a victory, and we should be happy about that.
[15:36.500 --> 15:40.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, some more movement on law changes and things like that.
[15:40.500 --> 15:55.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, a ballot proposal that would require automakers to provide tooling and computer codes to independent repair shops for the same prices as franchise dealers' service operations has likely gathered enough signatures to appear on the November ballot in Massachusetts.
[15:55.960 --> 15:57.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: We've talked about this before.
[15:57.440 --> 16:02.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's the Right to Repair Act that hopefully is moving forward.
[16:02.900 --> 16:10.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Basically, about 16,000 signatures have been turned in, roughly 4,500 more than required.
[16:10.840 --> 16:17.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, if approved by voters, the proposal will take effect in 2015, a year earlier than a proposed measure the Massachusetts legislature is considering.
[16:17.960 --> 16:23.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: And once the proposal is on the ballot, voters would have their say, even if state lawmakers pass legislation.
[16:23.980 --> 16:35.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Automakers also took action on the issue yesterday, or actually two days ago, Monday, filing with the state's Office of Campaign and Political Finance to register the, get this, Citizens Committee for Safe and Fair Repair.
[16:36.340 --> 16:40.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, Citizens Committee for Safe and Fair Repair.
[16:40.320 --> 16:40.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Does that spell out anything?
[16:41.420 --> 16:43.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: C-C-S-F-R.
[16:44.000 --> 16:45.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, I can't pronounce that.
[16:45.200 --> 16:47.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: It makes as much sense as anything they say.
[16:47.360 --> 16:55.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: The state's campaign finance law requires groups to register in order to raise money to support or oppose ballot proposals, candidates, or political parties.
[16:56.740 --> 17:10.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: The committee is made up of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents 12 automakers, including Toyota, Volkswagen, and the Detroit 3, as well as global automakers, and that represents Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and 11 other import brand automakers.
[17:11.800 --> 17:31.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, basically, what this is all about is a very disturbing trend that has affected the auto industry, where cars cannot be repaired by regular mechanics without access to computer codes, which very often is either not given to them or priced so high that it's impossible for them to get.
[17:31.100 --> 17:41.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: And what that means is that when you buy a car, you're pretty much locked into having to take it back to the dealer that retains pretty much the exclusive rights to repair the vehicle, to access the vehicle.
[17:41.680 --> 17:42.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: You don't actually even own the vehicle.
[17:43.180 --> 17:47.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're just basically agreeing to drive this thing.
[17:47.840 --> 17:51.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: And whenever it breaks down, you go to who you're told to go to and nobody else.
[17:51.880 --> 17:54.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, it's very scary.
[17:55.280 --> 17:57.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Cars just aren't the way they used to be, you know?
[17:57.580 --> 17:58.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: You can't just take it to a mechanic.
[17:59.200 --> 18:10.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, there's a lot of computer systems and stuff in cars these days, way more than has been in the past, and it seems to become, like, exponentially more complex.
[18:10.320 --> 18:19.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there are more and more systems with all the features, with infotainment systems and all this kind of, you know, like, content and, like, features in the car.
[18:19.980 --> 18:29.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, now you're getting, like, cars that are hybrids, that have, like, different types of drivetrains or combinations of drivetrains, and that adds to the complicated nature of it.
[18:29.420 --> 18:33.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's not just, you know, of fuel and combustion the way it used to be.
[18:33.620 --> 18:48.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's really kind of disconcerting to see this trend, because people that own cars, you know, it used to be that you could get your car, you could get a service manual, and you could repair it yourself.
[18:48.560 --> 18:55.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, you might need some help with certain special things, like machining something or, you know, ordering certain parts.
[18:55.760 --> 18:58.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: You might have to stop by the dealer or another shop or something.
[18:58.560 --> 19:02.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: But it's, it's sort of prohibiting you from doing that.
[19:02.540 --> 19:06.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: It keeps you from having that, like, empowerment, that ability to work on your own vehicle.
[19:07.060 --> 19:11.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: And now you might see a sign that says, no user serviceable parts inside.
[19:11.540 --> 19:11.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[19:11.980 --> 19:14.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: You can only send it away to one particular place.
[19:14.580 --> 19:14.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[19:14.640 --> 19:16.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: Or a place that pays for the right to do that.
[19:17.460 --> 19:24.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, you know, it's, it's, it's a certain, there's a certain joy to being able to know that you can get your car moving again if it breaks down.
[19:24.120 --> 19:29.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know what to do, you know, to plug something in or replace a very simple part or something like that.
[19:29.260 --> 19:37.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: But imagine it breaks down, the only way to get a fix is to have somebody who has a license to, to replace something or simply snap another component in.
[19:37.740 --> 19:39.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's the only way to get it moving again.
[19:40.380 --> 19:42.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's, it's not just cars.
[19:42.100 --> 19:42.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's not just cars.
[19:42.920 --> 19:47.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a lot of technology that, that we use every day that basically is going down that road.
[19:48.160 --> 19:49.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: So it's, it's sad.
[19:49.960 --> 19:51.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And people depend on these things.
[19:51.400 --> 19:54.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's absurd if you think about it in the context of other forms of transportation.
[19:54.800 --> 20:05.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, what if your wheelchair, you weren't able to like fix yourself or your, your bicycle, you couldn't, you know, change your, your own tires or, or, or shorten your chain up yourself.
[20:05.020 --> 20:08.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: You had to go and have some certain person with special tools do it.
[20:08.540 --> 20:14.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you had to pay them a hundred or more an hour, which is like an average mechanics rate.
[20:14.220 --> 20:23.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the other part of this, and I think what's going to be really interesting is truck drivers and like huge lobbies of people that, that depend on their cars for business.
[20:23.840 --> 20:30.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: And like, I think those, those groups of people, as well as, um, small mechanic, like small repair shops and stuff.
[20:30.700 --> 20:39.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's, that's who it's really, really hurting because those guys, you know, your local mechanic, maybe you go to them with, you know, several different types of cars, but you have a relationship with them.
[20:40.020 --> 20:43.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're like a, it's, it's like small town bookstops, bookshops and stuff.
[20:43.460 --> 20:45.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: How, how basically they're sort of struggling.
[20:45.840 --> 20:51.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: They can't really keep their business going because when people bring in these new cars, they have no idea how it works.
[20:51.320 --> 20:55.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: They have, they can't license the tools to fix them because it's prohibitively expensive.
[20:55.700 --> 20:59.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: And some tools, um, with Mercedes-Benz, it's the star system.
[20:59.860 --> 21:02.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, I think with Volkswagen, it's called the GECCO system.
[21:02.720 --> 21:17.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's an acronym for something, but basically that's the dealership, um, computer system that issues different types of codes to unlock and lock things, uh, reprogram key fobs, stuff that, um, has security implications, but also is just, they want to keep you from,
[21:17.200 --> 21:24.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: um, servicing it yourself because they get to charge a premium for your access to their tools and, and then thus know-how.
[21:24.920 --> 21:27.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, um, it's, it's really bad for independent mechanics.
[21:27.900 --> 21:38.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I really think if you get those people together and, and people that depend on their vehicles, like truckers and stuff that, that, uh, it's, it's going to gather some strength, uh, against this kind of practice.
[21:39.000 --> 21:43.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I can't believe that they have a committee, you know, big, big auto manufacturer.
[21:43.460 --> 21:46.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I can believe it, but I mean, I can't believe they can take themselves seriously.
[21:46.840 --> 21:47.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: Bernie, did this surprise you?
[21:48.000 --> 21:50.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: I know, uh, you've had your share of, of, of car problems over the years.
[21:50.920 --> 21:52.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, yeah, I think this is good.
[21:52.640 --> 22:00.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's, it's, it's the process of this legislation has been moving very, very slowly, but it would be, uh, it would be a good trend if, uh, which, which season is Massachusetts, is it?
[22:00.420 --> 22:00.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, Massachusetts.
[22:01.100 --> 22:10.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: If, if they enact this, I'm hoping that, uh, causes a, uh, a domino effect and other states wake up, people in other states wake up to say, Hey, this is such a good idea.
[22:10.120 --> 22:13.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: We need to encourage our legislators to, uh, enact this.
[22:13.100 --> 22:29.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: Unfortunately, the legislators are, uh, are a lot of them are paid off by the, uh, the motor vehicle industry lobby, uh, who has a huge vested interest in keeping their monopoly so that, uh, people who own particular brand cars have to go to that dealership for that,
[22:29.620 --> 22:31.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: that car company.
[22:31.360 --> 22:36.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, it's just, it's basically, this is an anti-monopolistic piece of legislation.
[22:36.840 --> 22:38.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, I really wish it success.
[22:38.920 --> 22:42.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And as we know with, with other monopolies, this keeps systems bad.
[22:42.740 --> 22:43.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: It keeps it really cruddy.
[22:44.040 --> 22:47.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there are some really bad vehicle computer systems out there.
[22:47.260 --> 22:47.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're looking at me.
[22:48.580 --> 22:48.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Squarely.
[22:49.820 --> 22:50.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[22:50.320 --> 22:52.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: The smart car does have its share of problems.
[22:52.420 --> 22:56.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, I mean, terrible, terrible systems and microcontrollers and all of that.
[22:56.680 --> 22:59.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, you know, it's, it's keeping it closed just keeps it horrible.
[23:00.240 --> 23:06.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, and, you know, people want to know how the things that they're licensing, I mean, I really mean own.
[23:07.060 --> 23:09.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, if you buy a car, it's yours, it should be.
[23:09.420 --> 23:09.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[23:09.760 --> 23:20.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: It should be that perhaps you're licensing, you know, soft or you're, you're paying for access to software, but it shouldn't be that you're licensing it such that you can't modify it or you can't understand what it's doing.
[23:20.860 --> 23:20.860]  Yeah.
[23:20.860 --> 23:22.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Can't access certain things.
[23:22.240 --> 23:27.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we see the same thing with DVDs, uh, where you're not allowed to look at something from a different country.
[23:27.260 --> 23:30.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: And so many people I know just accept this because they don't know any better.
[23:31.200 --> 23:37.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, they have, uh, uh, DVD, uh, readers and writers in their computers and, uh, you know, I give them a DVD.
[23:37.340 --> 23:38.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hey, check this out.
[23:38.120 --> 23:38.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's from Europe.
[23:38.720 --> 23:42.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: They can't see it unless they change their region, but then they get locked in.
[23:42.260 --> 23:46.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: If they do that, uh, I think two or three times, they, they have to stay in that, in that region.
[23:46.220 --> 23:46.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's all artificial.
[23:47.120 --> 23:48.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a way of controlling the consumer.
[23:48.880 --> 23:55.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Same thing with, uh, uh, with, uh, uh, consumer DVD decks, uh, that, that you use to play on your, on your television.
[23:55.240 --> 24:09.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this encourages people to, uh, to resort to torrents and, uh, you know, in basically downloading things without, uh, without buying them, which, you know, maybe that is the solution, but it, it seems that, uh, that's not really what, what Hollywood and the other,
[24:09.440 --> 24:14.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: uh, the other creators of content, uh, would want people to do, but it's, it's driving them to do that.
[24:14.880 --> 24:18.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: So if I understand your position correctly, it's that we should pirate automobiles.
[24:18.800 --> 24:28.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, if we can figure out a way, how I, I, you know, I would love to see automobiles where this is not an issue, but it seems like all the manufacturers are buying into this.
[24:28.860 --> 24:35.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: If there's a manufacturer out there that just manufactured mechanical cars like the old days, I'd give that a chance over this.
[24:35.200 --> 24:36.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I don't, I don't think that even has to be the case.
[24:36.760 --> 24:42.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like, uh, so some of this computer technology like does useful things like increase fuel efficiency and, and whatnot.
[24:42.500 --> 24:49.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, but even so you could make this technology accessible to people and independent, uh, repair shops.
[24:49.820 --> 24:50.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: Absolutely.
[24:50.540 --> 24:53.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Could, could we actually have an open source car that's street legal and on the road?
[24:53.880 --> 25:00.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you think, uh, that question can be asked, uh, just to swing things over to, uh, what we're putting on in another week or so.
[25:00.300 --> 25:04.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, the Hackers on Planet Earth conference coming to New York City Friday, Saturday, and Sunday of next week.
[25:05.220 --> 25:08.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, there's, uh, a couple of talks at least that will be dealing with this subject.
[25:09.020 --> 25:11.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Here's one, how to communicate with your car's network.
[25:11.840 --> 25:14.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Modern vehicles are essentially mobile computers and controller networks.
[25:14.940 --> 25:18.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: On average, there are around 10 embedded controllers in a vehicle.
[25:18.760 --> 25:25.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, these controllers are responsible for running the engine, locking and unlocking the vehicle, sounding the horn, and much, much more.
[25:25.220 --> 25:28.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, these networks are very different from current computer networks.
[25:28.200 --> 25:36.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this talk will help you understand how to get started, what information is on the vehicle network, and how you can use this data to get information from and send commands to these controllers.
[25:37.000 --> 25:43.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, uh, additionally, the talk will list the current tools available for communicating with vehicles and how to interpret the communications between the controllers.
[25:43.580 --> 25:52.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: So it's mostly about understanding existing systems, but certainly the question will come up as to, uh, how to bypass them and, and how to, uh, understand alternatives and things like that.
[25:52.360 --> 25:54.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's taking place, uh, next Friday night.
[25:54.780 --> 25:56.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, we're having, uh, that panel.
[25:56.820 --> 26:06.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: And also, our friend, Tiffany Rad is giving, uh, a panel on, uh, on, on the subject of, uh, of, of, well, automotive, um, systems and other systems as well.
[26:06.620 --> 26:14.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, the one, I just want to say two more things, uh, that speak to the, the, like the safety, that they're calling themselves a safety committee that the manufacturers, uh, the alliance of, of, uh, manufacturers.
[26:15.080 --> 26:19.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: And as I said, I mean, you're, you're basically, you don't have access, you have no idea what the software is doing.
[26:19.500 --> 26:22.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: And because it's a vehicle, I mean, it could be prosthetics.
[26:22.260 --> 26:26.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: It could be, you know, any other, any number of other things, which I think some of these talks are going to touch on.
[26:26.780 --> 26:34.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, but, uh, you're basically entrusting your life to something that you have absolutely no, uh, you have no way of scrutinizing the way it's working.
[26:34.640 --> 26:42.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, how's that safe if I don't know, uh, what this manufacturer is putting into the car and then I'm going to get in it and trust the brakes to, to stop and that kind of thing.
[26:42.700 --> 26:47.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: I also want to speak to the fuel efficiency thing, which you're absolutely right, Mike, that, um, fuel efficiency.
[26:48.000 --> 26:57.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, the software and systems with, um, uh, creating, uh, you know, better fuel economy or like the hybrid, you know, where it switches from battery to gas, that's really good for the environment.
[26:57.260 --> 27:06.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: But there's actually instances where some of these companies are, um, they're, they have clearly a relationship with the, um, fuel companies in this country.
[27:06.920 --> 27:19.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: And there are, um, situations where different types of fuels are actually being, uh, the, the, um, engine designs are being, are designed such that, um, it's hostile towards certain fuels over others.
[27:19.220 --> 27:28.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, this happened with, uh, Volkswagen and post injection, um, like certain model Volkswagen TDIs, uh, from like 2009, uh, till 2012.
[27:28.880 --> 27:42.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're having problems with people that run biofuels and, um, blends of biofuels were having problems with post injection where I don't know the, the exact technical details of it, but basically, um, the fuel was not being combusted because the engine itself was engineered to burn only,
[27:42.720 --> 27:45.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: um, ultra low sulfur diesel and like petroleum based diesels.
[27:46.060 --> 27:52.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I've also been reading, I've looked at, if you look on Volkswagen sustainability site, they're actually trying to develop their own fuel called sun fuel.
[27:52.340 --> 28:01.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: So if you can imagine manufacturers trying to sell you their own fuel and bar you out of using other types of fuels that perhaps you make with waste products or, or other ways that are cleaner or whatever.
[28:02.020 --> 28:03.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, that that's pretty bad.
[28:03.800 --> 28:07.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, they're basically, uh, locking you into their repair, their own fuel.
[28:07.560 --> 28:09.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: They want it all vertically integrated and that's bad.
[28:09.940 --> 28:14.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Could this actually reach the stage where brand names aren't accepted?
[28:14.160 --> 28:17.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Like you buy a, a shell car that won't take mobile gas.
[28:17.820 --> 28:19.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Could it actually get that absurd?
[28:19.460 --> 28:22.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Crazier stuff's happened with technology, like, you know, hardware and software.
[28:22.540 --> 28:27.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: So like, you know, so, so they're going the laser printer route basically, where you can only use their supplies and their stuff.
[28:27.960 --> 28:30.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Like I said, in, in some ways, I mean, Mike, you're absolutely right.
[28:30.680 --> 28:45.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, fuel efficiency is, is, is totally benefited from like the, the ability of like sensor systems and, and microcontrollers to, you know, in real time evaluate what's going on with the engine and adjust, especially if something, um, you know, something's modified and stuff like that.
[28:45.220 --> 28:50.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: They can, the engine can recalibrate itself for the most efficient or... And these are good, these good uses of technology.
[28:50.520 --> 28:56.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's no need for a black box system where you have absolutely no idea what's going on and you just have to rely on them to, uh, to replace it and repair it.
[28:56.860 --> 28:59.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: And without no understanding what's actually happening inside your vehicle.
[28:59.520 --> 28:59.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[29:00.460 --> 29:02.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, let's move on because it's not... I could go on enough.
[29:02.980 --> 29:03.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[29:03.280 --> 29:03.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's, it's fascinating.
[29:04.080 --> 29:15.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: It just goes to show this one aspect of the hacker community is, uh, gets a lot of passion, uh, um, uh, response and, uh, and that's how we get truck drivers to come to hope because they're, they're just as, uh, when, when, when you spoke down in, uh,
[29:16.040 --> 29:20.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Virginia at, at one of the hacker spaces... Yeah, it was the opening night for reverse space.
[29:20.660 --> 29:20.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[29:21.020 --> 29:22.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, there were some truck drivers.
[29:22.540 --> 29:28.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: There were some guys doing, uh, modifications to, uh, like, uh, Cummins diesels and, um, CAT diesels.
[29:28.460 --> 29:32.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, and they were talking about some of the things they've tried to do, um, as far as accessing automobile systems.
[29:33.260 --> 29:44.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I know, you know, there's guys in the, in, you know, sort of tuning communities that are just removing, removing electronic systems entirely running completely, um, mechanical, uh, engines and tuning it mechanically.
[29:44.700 --> 29:46.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: So it's just fixed at a fixed tune.
[29:46.720 --> 29:52.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, there's also people that are, um, strapping like, uh, third party, uh, computer systems on.
[29:52.280 --> 29:53.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's a couple of manufacturers that build them.
[29:54.260 --> 29:55.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I'm sure there's going to be people building their own.
[29:56.440 --> 29:56.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: We'll see.
[29:57.100 --> 30:04.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: There is not one field out there that I can think of involving technology in any way that is not touched by these questions.
[30:04.660 --> 30:11.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, musicians, uh, artists of all sorts, writers, um, and truck drivers, uh, and who knows?
[30:11.880 --> 30:15.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Every, I, I'd be hard pressed to find something that is not touched by this one way or another.
[30:16.140 --> 30:20.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that's, um, that's why, uh, people come together and talk about this kind of thing.
[30:20.360 --> 30:23.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: We hope to see you at the, uh, Hackers and Planet Earth Conference next week.
[30:24.080 --> 30:25.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's coming up very, very soon.
[30:25.760 --> 30:27.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we're going a bit crazy here.
[30:27.440 --> 30:29.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: More information at www.hope.net.
[30:29.720 --> 30:33.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I should point out, this is the last week that, uh, you can get, uh, pre-registration.
[30:34.240 --> 30:37.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, it's going to be more expensive and you won't be able to get it online.
[30:37.600 --> 30:41.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, so, uh, that's, uh, that's an important announcement that we have for the folks out there.
[30:42.500 --> 30:43.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, Bernie, anything you want to add to this?
[30:44.200 --> 30:47.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, could we tell people where they can get more information about the Hope Conference?
[30:47.700 --> 30:51.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, well, I did give the website, but, uh, yeah, I'll give it a gift.
[30:51.000 --> 30:52.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you didn't hear it, maybe other people didn't hear it too.
[30:52.600 --> 30:56.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: www.hope.net, H-O-P-E stands for Hackers on Planet Earth.
[30:57.060 --> 30:59.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, and, uh, that, that should give you all the information you need.
[30:59.760 --> 31:02.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: It has a full list of all the talks that we have.
[31:02.380 --> 31:06.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, uh, I understand there's a whole bunch of projects and, and, and, uh, workshops as well, Bernie.
[31:07.060 --> 31:10.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, if they go to hope.net, they're going to see a rotary telephone dial, won't they?
[31:10.220 --> 31:12.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: If they go to hope.net, they'll see a rotary phone dial.
[31:12.560 --> 31:15.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: If they go to www.hope.net, they'll go right to the Hope number 9 site.
[31:15.480 --> 31:17.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you get, if you get the rotary dial, click on the 9.
[31:17.960 --> 31:19.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: I imagine most people figure that out pretty quickly.
[31:19.540 --> 31:22.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you click on any other number, you'll get different conferences from different years.
[31:22.780 --> 31:24.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, but this is, this is hope number 9.
[31:24.740 --> 31:25.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's confusing.
[31:25.340 --> 31:27.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: You get somewhere different if you omit the Ws?
[31:28.280 --> 31:28.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[31:28.940 --> 31:29.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, it happens.
[31:29.580 --> 31:32.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's not only us that does that, but, uh, yeah, it is true.
[31:32.440 --> 31:33.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's confusing.
[31:33.240 --> 31:38.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that's why we give out the www, so people don't get confused, uh, in any event.
[31:38.360 --> 31:40.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Or you can go to hope.net.net and avoid the whole thing.
[31:40.960 --> 31:43.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: It just goes right to the, uh, to the main site.
[31:43.080 --> 31:44.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: But hope.net just sounds cooler.
[31:45.080 --> 31:45.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, all right.
[31:46.020 --> 31:50.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, so, uh, let's, uh, go to some other stories because other things, believe it or not, did happen.
[31:51.080 --> 32:07.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, and this is, uh, kind of interesting story I just, uh, found out about, uh, Wayne Rogers, um, a New Jersey teacher, uh, sat down in his school's computer lab to check his email and he, um, accidentally bumped the mouse of the computer next to him.
[32:07.800 --> 32:09.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that's what changed his entire life.
[32:09.940 --> 32:21.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: The screen on the adjacent computer came on and Rogers saw that one of his colleagues, Linda, uh, Linda Marcus, um, had left herself logged into her Yahoo email account.
[32:21.640 --> 32:25.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: He saw an email thread with the subject Wayne update.
[32:25.640 --> 32:27.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Remember his name is Wayne Rogers.
[32:27.080 --> 32:29.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I would, uh, certainly take an interest in that.
[32:29.640 --> 32:30.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now he was curious.
[32:30.920 --> 32:37.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: He clicked the email and found it was a private discussion with another teacher all about an argument between Rogers and Marcus.
[32:38.580 --> 32:43.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: One of the emails read, I guess in brackets Rogers chooses not to listen.
[32:43.660 --> 32:44.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: I will not respond to him.
[32:44.680 --> 32:46.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: He is so fake.
[32:46.520 --> 32:53.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: And so with the dark side, these are teachers talking like, so with the dark side, I will never tell him quote unquote the truth.
[32:54.000 --> 32:56.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Not because yes, do they add extra O's to the word?
[32:57.080 --> 32:59.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, or are you just, well, how else would I be saying this?
[32:59.560 --> 33:01.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I want to be clear that was in the email.
[33:01.240 --> 33:04.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're not just... There are five O's in each of those so's.
[33:04.280 --> 33:04.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[33:04.440 --> 33:05.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: You must know.
[33:05.440 --> 33:05.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[33:05.780 --> 33:06.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: I must know.
[33:06.440 --> 33:06.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: And now I do.
[33:07.020 --> 33:07.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[33:07.420 --> 33:08.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: I will never tell him the truth.
[33:08.580 --> 33:11.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Not because he can't handle it, because he's too dumb to understand it.
[33:12.000 --> 33:12.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: See you later.
[33:12.800 --> 33:15.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, obviously that's a high intellect there.
[33:15.640 --> 33:16.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, okay, but whatever.
[33:16.720 --> 33:17.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a private email.
[33:17.820 --> 33:19.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, you shouldn't have read it, right?
[33:19.420 --> 33:21.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's, it's wrong to do things like that.
[33:21.560 --> 33:26.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Anyway, he printed out this email, uh, this email thread, as well as a second thread that had also discussed Rogers.
[33:27.160 --> 33:30.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, Marcus, by the way, was the president of the local teachers association.
[33:31.500 --> 33:37.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: So he brought copies of the email to the next meeting of the association and confronted Marcus about their contents.
[33:38.140 --> 33:47.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, Marcus was outraged and other teachers involved in the email threads filed a complaint with the school, eventually filed a lawsuit against Rogers in New Jersey courts.
[33:47.540 --> 33:47.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[33:48.240 --> 34:01.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, uh, and according to New Jersey law, a person is guilty if he knowingly accesses without authorization, a facility through which an electronic communication service is provided or exceeds an authorization to access that facility.
[34:01.460 --> 34:06.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, the judge ruled that Marcus, not Rogers, had accessed her email.
[34:07.280 --> 34:12.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: So Rogers was on safe ground on the access question because he didn't access it.
[34:12.880 --> 34:13.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: It was already accessed.
[34:14.000 --> 34:18.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: However, the judge let the jury decide whether Rogers had exceeded the authorization.
[34:18.840 --> 34:21.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Marcus had accidentally granted to him.
[34:21.280 --> 34:24.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: The jury ruled that he had not.
[34:24.980 --> 34:34.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: As an appellate opinion puts it, the judge in this case submitted questions to the jurors that were carefully crafted to ascertain whether Wayne knew he lacked authorization or knew he exceeded his authorization.
[34:35.160 --> 34:37.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: Their answers demonstrate that they found he did not know.
[34:38.200 --> 34:46.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: All seven of the deliberating jurors found that he knowingly accessed the facility providing the service and that he obtained an electronic communication and electronic storage.
[34:46.920 --> 34:51.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: But six of the seven found that he had not exceeded an authorization to access that facility.
[34:51.800 --> 34:56.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: And seven found that Wayne had tacit authorization to do what he did.
[34:56.600 --> 35:06.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, Marcus appealed the decision, but last week a three judge panel of the Superior Court of New Jersey refused to overturn the jury's decision or find fault with other aspects of how the trial was conducted.
[35:06.320 --> 35:11.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: So if someone forgets to log out of her email account, is it illegal to snoop?
[35:11.380 --> 35:19.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: The frustrating answer, according to this newspaper, at least in New Jersey, seems to be it depends on what the jury thinks.
[35:19.360 --> 35:23.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Since jurors aren't required to give written opinions, it's hard to know exactly what they were thinking.
[35:23.660 --> 35:27.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: But at least in this case, the jury concluded that Rogers hadn't broken the law.
[35:27.500 --> 35:30.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Either way, it's a good idea to stay on the safe side.
[35:30.360 --> 35:33.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Be sure to log out of your email account if you're using a public computer.
[35:33.660 --> 35:38.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: And if you discover someone else has left herself logged into an email account, don't snoop.
[35:38.860 --> 35:49.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I don't agree with that last part because I don't think there's anyone of us who had seen something like that just lying around wide open on a system that someone had walked away from and did not belong to them.
[35:50.000 --> 35:50.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have.
[35:50.580 --> 35:51.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: You have what?
[35:51.680 --> 35:52.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have seen that.
[35:52.880 --> 35:58.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was at a years ago, I was at an ING direct bank branch where they have a little cafe and there was a computer there.
[35:58.940 --> 36:01.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I went to use one to check my email.
[36:01.740 --> 36:06.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: And someone before, a woman apparently, it was still logged into her hotmail, I guess.
[36:07.260 --> 36:08.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'm like, wow.
[36:08.880 --> 36:10.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: So I...
[36:10.020 --> 36:11.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Was she talking about you?
[36:11.320 --> 36:12.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, not at all.
[36:12.220 --> 36:15.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I emailed myself from her account and then emailed her back from that.
[36:16.140 --> 36:17.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, I logged her out then.
[36:17.400 --> 36:22.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: I emailed her back from that from my account and said, hey, you left your email totally exposed to anybody that walked in.
[36:23.520 --> 36:25.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: You should probably be more careful.
[36:25.500 --> 36:27.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: And then she asked me out on a date, but I didn't accept.
[36:28.040 --> 36:31.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you know, it's just... that's a natural chain of events, I guess.
[36:31.940 --> 36:39.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: But Gmail is probably one of the worst because people are constantly leaving their computers logged into Gmail and walking away from them.
[36:39.440 --> 36:52.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: I've had people visit me and days later, I check a system that they have been using and there's their name next to a Google search and I can simply access all their... they've gotten better.
[36:52.160 --> 36:57.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: They actually notify you now if they're there's another account logged in and they tell you when... what your last IP was.
[36:58.140 --> 37:03.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: But oftentimes they don't notice and it's really... it's really bad because you can send things as them.
[37:03.620 --> 37:08.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: You can read all of their email and it's a very bad idea.
[37:08.240 --> 37:08.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: Mike?
[37:08.500 --> 37:10.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can already send email as anybody.
[37:11.240 --> 37:12.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Tell us the secret, Mike.
[37:12.480 --> 37:12.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: How do you do that?
[37:13.020 --> 37:14.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: You just change your from address in your email program.
[37:14.960 --> 37:16.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, you know, you can do that, yes.
[37:16.340 --> 37:22.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I'll know in a second that it's somebody else because there's more than just one from field in email.
[37:22.140 --> 37:24.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if you take the time to read all of them, you might notice.
[37:24.720 --> 37:28.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I don't on a regular basis and I suspect that most people don't either.
[37:28.740 --> 37:29.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know.
[37:30.380 --> 37:35.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: I guess there are some systems where it's very simple to be fooled like that.
[37:35.320 --> 37:36.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I don't know.
[37:36.640 --> 37:42.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: I tend... like for instance, if you get that mail from PayPal that says, hey, you've got money coming to you.
[37:42.920 --> 37:46.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: All you have to do is click on this link and it looks like it's from PayPal.
[37:46.280 --> 37:51.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: But all you got to do is look at the headers and actually it's coming from, you know, some country in Southeast Asia someplace.
[37:51.740 --> 37:55.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, yeah, I happen to believe that PayPal is not generally sending me money.
[37:55.700 --> 37:56.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I know that it's a problem.
[37:56.980 --> 37:58.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: But if...
[37:58.720 --> 38:00.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: How about Nigerian...
[38:00.160 --> 38:00.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, Nigeria.
[38:01.180 --> 38:03.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: No one in Nigeria owes me any money, I'm pretty sure.
[38:04.440 --> 38:13.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: But if I sent you an email from someone you know about some... and I said something that was sort of plausible, you might believe it was from them.
[38:14.080 --> 38:15.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I got a challenge for you.
[38:15.480 --> 38:20.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: We have a coordinating list on the Hope site where we coordinate the conference.
[38:21.640 --> 38:22.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: Post as me.
[38:22.600 --> 38:23.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead.
[38:23.400 --> 38:24.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: See if that works.
[38:24.540 --> 38:25.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: Fool them.
[38:25.180 --> 38:26.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: Fool them into thinking that you're posting as me.
[38:26.980 --> 38:27.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[38:27.480 --> 38:29.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think you'll do it, but we'll see.
[38:30.460 --> 38:31.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[38:31.720 --> 38:32.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: Moving on.
[38:32.600 --> 38:36.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we want to give out our phone number, 212-209-2900.
[38:36.580 --> 38:40.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're probably not going to be taking phone calls for the next few weeks because, well, next week is the pre-hope show.
[38:40.820 --> 38:42.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's also a fundraiser.
[38:42.360 --> 38:44.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, it's the summer fundraiser coming up.
[38:45.680 --> 38:48.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's definitely summer outside, so you can't blame us for this.
[38:48.820 --> 38:51.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's just time passing a little bit more quickly than we wish.
[38:52.040 --> 38:59.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: So yeah, we'll be... we'll have a million people in the studio and also we'll be begging for money, but hopefully not too much begging because we have so much else to talk about.
[38:59.780 --> 39:03.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the week after that will be the post-hope show, again with a million people in the studio.
[39:03.820 --> 39:05.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: Again, we'll be begging for money hopefully Hopefully for a short bit.
[39:05.720 --> 39:08.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think the week after that is when the fundraiser ends.
[39:08.680 --> 39:11.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: But by then, summer will probably be over.
[39:11.540 --> 39:12.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hopefully.
[39:13.080 --> 39:13.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[39:13.540 --> 39:16.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is something that happened in Denmark.
[39:16.780 --> 39:23.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Traveling by train in Denmark can sometimes include unruly youths, stuffy compartments, whinging children.
[39:23.960 --> 39:26.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's a British way of saying whining children, I believe.
[39:26.900 --> 39:29.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: And for a few hours recently, pornography.
[39:30.000 --> 39:30.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[39:30.680 --> 39:37.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: Information screens at Aarhus Central Station that were supposed to display arrival and departures suddenly showed something a bit racier.
[39:38.180 --> 39:38.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Pornography.
[39:38.820 --> 39:42.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hackers are suspected in being behind the pornographic prank because who else would do something like that?
[39:43.720 --> 39:47.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's according to an apologetic vice president of the transport company.
[39:47.500 --> 39:49.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: We could see that something was happening on the screens.
[39:50.700 --> 39:53.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: It looked like someone was sitting and programming on the screens.
[39:53.640 --> 39:56.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Together with some guards, we pulled the plugs on all three screens.
[39:57.040 --> 39:58.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not sure what that means.
[39:58.340 --> 39:59.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is that what the pornography was?
[39:59.940 --> 40:01.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Somebody sitting and programming?
[40:01.600 --> 40:03.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: That was... Emmanuel.
[40:03.240 --> 40:03.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[40:03.740 --> 40:04.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead, Bernie.
[40:04.120 --> 40:12.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: It may be a sheer coincidence that the Aarhus Central Station is the location of the 2600 meetings.
[40:12.340 --> 40:13.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I was going to get to that, actually.
[40:13.940 --> 40:13.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, okay.
[40:13.960 --> 40:14.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sorry.
[40:14.260 --> 40:14.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead.
[40:14.560 --> 40:30.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, because there is no indication and no connection that I'm aware of that just because we have meetings in that particular train station, and that happened to be the train station where this particular bit of mischief was performed, that it was these people.
[40:30.020 --> 40:35.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, for one thing, for one thing, it did not happen on the first Friday of the month.
[40:36.860 --> 40:39.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: July 2nd, I believe, is when this happened.
[40:39.920 --> 40:40.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: Today is the 4th.
[40:40.860 --> 40:42.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: So that would be Monday that this happened.
[40:42.420 --> 40:46.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: So the first Friday of the month, I believe, Rob, is this Friday coming up, right?
[40:47.000 --> 40:47.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: That is correct.
[40:47.520 --> 40:57.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, you know, you might... if it was the Monday after the first Friday, I might believe that someone had stuck around for a couple of extra days and done this, or maybe worked on it all weekend long and done this.
[40:57.740 --> 41:02.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: It strikes me very hard to believe they would have come in the previous Monday to do this.
[41:02.380 --> 41:07.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: And what other reason do people have to go to train stations other than for a 2600 meeting?
[41:07.880 --> 41:15.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Anyway, they say we can't say for sure how it happened, whether someone has gained access to codes or they just tried to continuously gain entrance.
[41:16.220 --> 41:23.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: They do know that the hacker, because they're convinced it's a hacker, gained access to a program from a third-party supplier.
[41:23.200 --> 41:25.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: The program was uninstalled after the incident.
[41:26.740 --> 41:30.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, yeah, that's what's going on in Denmark.
[41:30.120 --> 41:48.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: And something else that you might want to be careful of, if you have an open Wi-Fi network, you might get a visit from a SWAT team, not because you have a Wi-Fi network per se, but apparently what happened in Indiana was that these people were sitting at home,
[41:48.780 --> 41:49.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: minding their own business.
[41:49.580 --> 41:58.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: In fact, they basically said they were watching the Food Network, comfortable on the couch, and all of a sudden, a heavily armed SWAT team broke down the door and stormed into the living room.
[41:58.620 --> 42:06.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: 18-year-old Stephanie Milan was in Evansville, Indiana, in her parents' home, when a team of police officers broke down her storm door.
[42:06.360 --> 42:07.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: The front door was already open.
[42:07.700 --> 42:08.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: I guess they could have just opened it.
[42:09.200 --> 42:12.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they tossed a flashbang stun grenade into the room.
[42:13.720 --> 42:15.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, yeah, you kind of have to do that, don't you, if you're a SWAT team.
[42:16.620 --> 42:23.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Workers were at the Milan home on Friday, repairing the storm door and broken windows, according to the Evansville Courier and Press.
[42:23.620 --> 42:27.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Carpet inside the house was stained with black residue from the flashbang grenade.
[42:27.200 --> 42:27.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is that really the name of it?
[42:27.940 --> 42:28.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: The flashbang grenade?
[42:29.080 --> 42:31.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: What a childish name, flashbang grenade.
[42:32.400 --> 42:43.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, apparently what happened was somebody made some kind of anonymous online threat, and what they did was they used an open Wi-Fi router inside that house to do it.
[42:44.580 --> 42:51.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, of course, the SWAT team figured that that meant it had to have come from that location, and without asking any questions, just burst in.
[42:53.060 --> 42:55.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, first of all, you know, it's...
[42:55.260 --> 42:58.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: What kind of a threat do you make that gets a SWAT team coming at you?
[42:59.080 --> 43:06.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Online, no evidence whatsoever of anything happening except for an online threat that gives a particular internet protocol address.
[43:06.500 --> 43:09.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: Seems like they really didn't have very much to go on there at all.
[43:09.800 --> 43:21.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I guess one of the lessons to learn here, other than people on SWAT teams can be kind of thick sometimes, is that you should put a password on your Wi-Fi router and not leave it open so anybody can use it.
[43:21.700 --> 43:23.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: It had to have been very close by, though, right?
[43:23.580 --> 43:27.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: These people had to have been next door or passing by in the street or something like that?
[43:27.680 --> 43:30.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, that's exactly what they want you to do, is put a password on your Wi-Fi.
[43:30.980 --> 43:32.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I don't know.
[43:32.400 --> 43:36.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't like this trend in society that everyone has to have a password on their Wi-Fi.
[43:36.140 --> 43:37.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: Because there are open Wi-Fi routers.
[43:37.540 --> 43:41.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: We use them all the time to access email when you're on the road or something like that.
[43:42.280 --> 43:45.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this, I guess, basically encourages people not to do that, right?
[43:46.000 --> 43:46.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[43:46.200 --> 43:49.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it reinforces high costs for access.
[43:49.820 --> 43:51.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: And a lot of people can't pay for access.
[43:51.620 --> 43:56.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I mean, it's good for people to run public and open Wi-Fi networks.
[43:56.720 --> 43:58.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, a lot of people are already paying for access.
[43:58.140 --> 44:01.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: They just aren't paying for access in the particular space they happen to be in right now.
[44:01.200 --> 44:05.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: When I was in London, we needed to renew a hotel room.
[44:05.220 --> 44:07.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: And there was no talking to them, actually.
[44:07.960 --> 44:09.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: And there was no online access anywhere else.
[44:10.080 --> 44:11.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: So we just sat outside a Starbucks that was closed.
[44:11.980 --> 44:13.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they had an open router.
[44:13.540 --> 44:14.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we just logged in.
[44:14.720 --> 44:15.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: And everything was happening.
[44:15.820 --> 44:17.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: So you were in a hotel and you couldn't renew...
[44:17.700 --> 44:18.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, we weren't in the hotel at the time.
[44:19.040 --> 44:19.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: We were outside the Starbucks.
[44:20.040 --> 44:22.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: We would have to have run back to the hotel.
[44:22.280 --> 44:23.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Because apparently, you couldn't do it over the phone.
[44:23.980 --> 44:25.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: You have to show ID.
[44:25.200 --> 44:30.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: Or you could do it online through a third-party agency and pay by credit card that way.
[44:30.360 --> 44:31.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: But you can't do it over the phone.
[44:31.540 --> 44:32.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, of course not.
[44:32.980 --> 44:33.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[44:33.300 --> 44:33.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is London.
[44:34.100 --> 44:34.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: There were rules.
[44:34.820 --> 44:41.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: One other thing, they wouldn't necessarily have... had to have been very, very close because they could have used some kind of amplifier for whatever machine they were using.
[44:41.940 --> 44:42.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, how far way could they be?
[44:42.880 --> 44:43.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know.
[44:43.680 --> 44:48.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, there's one eWAT, you know, WiFi antennas, they're not necessarily legal.
[44:48.180 --> 44:51.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that would have to be using, they would have to be amplifying their signal to do that.
[44:51.380 --> 44:54.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think this poor girl watching the Food Network was amplifying...
[44:54.020 --> 44:57.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Right, the attacker might have something that could amplify their signal.
[44:57.500 --> 45:00.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: The attacker could amplify someone else's Wi-Fi signal?
[45:00.780 --> 45:04.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, they could amplify their transceivers so that they don't have to necessarily be as close.
[45:04.880 --> 45:07.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: You could build your own antenna and stuff.
[45:07.140 --> 45:07.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that right, Bernie?
[45:08.040 --> 45:11.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, you could set up a more sensitive... it wouldn't be amplifying.
[45:11.560 --> 45:15.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: You'd have a bigger antenna pointed in the direction of the open Wi-Fi router you want to access.
[45:16.100 --> 45:36.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I'd like to see some case law on this, where it becomes law, or at least case law, that an IP address alone does not constitute a physical address, or does not constitute probable cause to bust down the door with guns drawn and flashbang grenades at a particular physical address.
[45:36.860 --> 45:37.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I didn't think it did.
[45:37.920 --> 45:47.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: I never thought it... I thought, you know, you could spliff IP addresses so easily that you have to be a complete moron to think that you have solid evidence if you see an IP with any kind of information.
[45:47.580 --> 45:48.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that's what happened here.
[45:48.740 --> 45:49.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, apparently.
[45:50.100 --> 45:51.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's really weird.
[45:51.000 --> 45:53.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, well, people don't run their own servers anymore, so...
[45:53.500 --> 45:53.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, that's...
[45:53.920 --> 45:55.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: These things fall by the wayside.
[45:55.400 --> 45:55.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Certainly true.
[45:56.000 --> 45:59.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's another indication of why you gotta get your hands messy and do things yourself.
[45:59.280 --> 46:01.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Otherwise, all kinds of horrible things happen.
[46:01.520 --> 46:03.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[46:04.160 --> 46:08.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: We'd like to take some phone calls and time that we have left on this Independence Day.
[46:08.220 --> 46:11.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: I realize a lot of people are out doing Independence Day type things.
[46:11.380 --> 46:16.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think we have all kinds of explosives about to go off outside the... inside the station.
[46:16.560 --> 46:16.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[46:17.720 --> 46:19.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, it's a volatile place.
[46:21.040 --> 46:26.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: It only happens once a year, so maybe people aren't listening, or maybe new people are listening.
[46:26.700 --> 46:27.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Who knows?
[46:27.360 --> 46:32.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a very strange day today, very strange week when you have the 4th of July in the middle of the week.
[46:32.220 --> 46:33.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think some people took the entire week off, right?
[46:34.120 --> 46:35.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, there's not a lot of people in the city.
[46:35.720 --> 46:36.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, there really are.
[46:36.600 --> 46:39.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: The people that are in the city are strange people that I don't recognize.
[46:39.700 --> 46:41.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're all around here.
[46:41.580 --> 46:43.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's all these people from elsewhere.
[46:43.320 --> 46:48.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I noticed the street was closed, and it looked like something had happened already, and I don't know what it was.
[46:48.380 --> 46:49.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Some kind of market or something.
[46:49.520 --> 46:49.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[46:49.880 --> 46:51.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I don't think we can see the fireworks from here.
[46:51.660 --> 46:53.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's only on the west side now.
[46:53.300 --> 46:54.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, they're on the west side, on the Hudson.
[46:54.820 --> 46:55.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: Used to be on the east side, too.
[46:56.100 --> 47:01.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, it used to be for the Brooklyn people and the Queens people, but now apparently it's just for New Jersey and people on the west side.
[47:01.440 --> 47:02.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, let's take some phone calls.
[47:02.880 --> 47:03.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[47:03.280 --> 47:04.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: You are on Off the Hook.
[47:05.680 --> 47:06.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Speak up.
[47:06.440 --> 47:06.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Monroe.
[47:06.760 --> 47:07.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, go ahead.
[47:08.700 --> 47:08.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Monroe.
[47:09.440 --> 47:10.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: Speak up, please.
[47:10.740 --> 47:10.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Monroe.
[47:11.900 --> 47:13.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, Monroe is no longer here.
[47:13.420 --> 47:13.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[47:13.920 --> 47:15.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on Off the Hook.
[47:16.200 --> 47:17.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: Speak up, please.
[47:17.340 --> 47:17.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, go ahead.
[47:18.860 --> 47:21.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I'm looking for a Stevie D.
[47:22.620 --> 47:24.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, you're looking for an engineer.
[47:24.840 --> 47:27.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know if we're on the air.
[47:27.140 --> 47:29.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're getting personal calls on the studio line.
[47:30.640 --> 47:37.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, there's no engineer here at the moment, and there are no former listeners who have passed away last year here either, so please do not call for those people.
[47:38.180 --> 47:41.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is the on-air line, 212-209-2900.
[47:41.840 --> 47:42.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: Gotta love this place.
[47:43.260 --> 47:43.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[47:43.960 --> 47:45.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on Off the Hook.
[47:45.860 --> 47:46.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, hello.
[47:46.620 --> 47:46.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[47:47.120 --> 47:47.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hi, what's on your mind?
[47:48.220 --> 48:06.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: In the automotive business, I was thinking for a long time now that with the cars with all the sensors on them for helping you park, and the cameras and the computers for adjusting, you know, the fuel and everything, it's only a matter of time before some hobbyist gets a hold of car parts and builds a robot out of a car.
[48:06.660 --> 48:11.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't want to make any Transformers jokes, but, you know, it could possibly be done, I'm sure.
[48:12.600 --> 48:27.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think definitely, and with, you know, those Google cars that are starting to hit the highways and people just becoming slaves to the technology where they can't park a car themselves, they need the car to do it, or they have to be looking out the camera in the back.
[48:27.880 --> 48:30.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, it's scary times ahead.
[48:30.420 --> 48:32.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: What is the fundamental...
[48:32.140 --> 48:37.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there's all kinds of little motors in the cars for the windows and so on, adjust the mirrors, you know, there's all kinds of possibilities there.
[48:37.940 --> 48:38.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, go ahead, Mike.
[48:39.020 --> 48:41.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: What is the fundamental property of a robot that a car doesn't already have?
[48:44.680 --> 48:45.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not trying to kill us?
[48:46.860 --> 48:48.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Cars kill lots of people all the time.
[48:48.540 --> 48:50.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, but they don't set out to do it, I don't think.
[48:51.600 --> 48:53.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a good point, though.
[48:53.920 --> 49:00.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think those GM cars a long time ago that were going out of control, and a lot of other cars since then that have surged out of control.
[49:01.140 --> 49:11.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I had the theory that this was because of the computer chip that they were putting in there, and that they just solved it by putting in new chips that were programmed differently and not telling us that they were programmed differently.
[49:12.200 --> 49:12.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead, Kyle.
[49:12.800 --> 49:14.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: I would just say, bring it in, we'll take care of it.
[49:14.660 --> 49:25.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's a good point, though, with new technologies that cheap, it makes it much cheaper for certain And we need people thinking differently about some of these products and not using them the way they're sold to us.
[49:26.200 --> 49:34.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because you can get a product, I know with Blu-ray, it became really easy to get blue light diodes, laser diodes and stuff like that.
[49:34.460 --> 49:41.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, it becomes cheaper for people to access components instead of having them bought specially in their raw form.
[49:41.440 --> 49:45.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can maybe buy one product and split the cost and pull components out of it.
[49:45.960 --> 49:48.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: I know a lot of hackerspace is doing these kinds of things.
[49:48.260 --> 49:57.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: But with more and more functions of a car being taken over by computers, how long do we have before it becomes a regular occurrence for the car's computer to crash and therefore cause a car crash?
[49:58.420 --> 49:58.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[49:59.620 --> 50:00.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's true.
[50:00.200 --> 50:01.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're looking at things like that.
[50:01.100 --> 50:01.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Absolutely.
[50:02.060 --> 50:02.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks for that call.
[50:02.800 --> 50:03.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're going to move on to another one.
[50:04.720 --> 50:05.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: And good evening.
[50:05.580 --> 50:06.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on Off The Hook.
[50:07.840 --> 50:08.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: Speak up, please.
[50:09.980 --> 50:11.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, if you don't speak up, you're not going to be on the air.
[50:11.900 --> 50:12.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's how it works.
[50:12.560 --> 50:12.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[50:12.980 --> 50:13.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on Off The Hook.
[50:15.800 --> 50:17.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, we have a lot of confused people calling tonight.
[50:17.720 --> 50:18.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: What is going on?
[50:18.540 --> 50:19.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's the heat, I think.
[50:19.260 --> 50:19.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: It must be the heat.
[50:20.100 --> 50:21.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: People just passing out by the phone.
[50:21.240 --> 50:21.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[50:21.680 --> 50:22.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on Off The Hook.
[50:22.520 --> 50:22.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: Are you there?
[50:23.220 --> 50:24.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let me just lower my radio.
[50:24.920 --> 50:25.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, please do.
[50:27.220 --> 50:37.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was just wondering why you guys hadn't sort of spoken more about the flame virus in greater detail and the fact that Dooku and Stuxnet and flame were all related and...
[50:37.820 --> 50:41.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, we've talked about Stuxnet quite a bit over the years, it seems.
[50:41.080 --> 51:03.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right, but I mean, the latest sort of relationship to that being, you know, attributable now to the United States, you know, in an official government sense, and also to the sort of less than infamous 8,200 group somewhere in Israel, and the cooperation between these two governments to unleash official cyber warfare,
[51:03.880 --> 51:08.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: which really isn't the first time they've done it, because they did it on Iraq way before Desert Storm.
[51:09.500 --> 51:28.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: But they've also, you know, crossed a threshold, and rightly so, some of these DCIs and other people, the Director of Central Intelligence and also the National Intelligence Director, and these acronyms get really sort of confusing, but most of these people have an NSA background,
[51:28.940 --> 51:43.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: and they are commenting as if, you know, this is a new threshold that has been crossed, and that officially they're sort of expecting Iran, now that it's officially been confirmed that we were behind it, to be entitled to attack us.
[51:44.300 --> 52:01.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's an interesting question, and I wish you guys would devote more to it, devote more to it, because it's obviously a very, very important area that's going to be increasingly, you know, modified and extrapolated upon by all sorts of different people.
[52:02.680 --> 52:04.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what do you got to say about it?
[52:04.220 --> 52:14.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I mean, it just goes to show the mentality of the people in power, where they think, yeah, this is something that's acceptable, we can do this to another country, and God forbid another country does it to us.
[52:14.860 --> 52:16.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: Can you imagine if it had been the other way around?
[52:16.680 --> 52:23.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: If Iran had been caught trying to do something to our infrastructure through a virus or a worm or something like that?
[52:23.040 --> 52:28.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: It would be justification for an invasion or another bombing attack or something like that.
[52:28.140 --> 52:34.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's, you know, I can't say any of us were surprised when it finally was revealed that, yeah, in fact, the United States and Israel were behind it.
[52:34.700 --> 52:37.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: People have been saying that ever since it first came out.
[52:37.500 --> 52:41.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: I was actually surprised that the admission was there in the first place.
[52:41.180 --> 52:46.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it's very disturbing, the direction that we're heading in, where this kind of thing is considered par for the course.
[52:46.940 --> 52:55.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, I'm all in favor of shutting down nuclear power, nuclear weapons facilities, nonviolently, I just think maybe we could start with Los Alamos.
[52:55.680 --> 52:56.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, yeah.
[52:56.920 --> 53:03.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, that's a pretty, pretty well guarded area, but maybe not so well, you know, we're finding out things that the United States government is not so good at.
[53:03.960 --> 53:13.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: But what about sort of an international, you know, outcry to the stuff where, you know, people would take aggressive action, like a catalog of every single camera in the New York City area?
[53:13.880 --> 53:13.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[53:14.120 --> 53:14.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, I'd love that.
[53:15.180 --> 53:16.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: I would like that a lot.
[53:16.000 --> 53:17.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was one some years ago.
[53:17.300 --> 53:18.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: The ACLU did one.
[53:18.500 --> 53:20.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know how hard they'd have to work to do it now?
[53:20.640 --> 53:20.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[53:20.760 --> 53:21.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, more cameras there are.
[53:22.180 --> 53:37.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Imagine how much cooperation you'd probably get from, you know, all sorts of people that would help and canvass their local neighborhoods to really get it down and give an updated list so that, you know, the ring of steel becomes, you know, the ring of Swiss cheese and our civil rights are maintained by vigilance,
[53:37.760 --> 53:41.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: which is, you know, after all, one of those tenets that we should be celebrating on a day like today.
[53:41.480 --> 53:41.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Of course.
[53:42.160 --> 53:42.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[53:42.420 --> 53:42.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Very good.
[53:42.760 --> 53:43.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: Very good point.
[53:43.680 --> 53:55.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think also, you know, if you take a good look over in the UK and London, where Kyle and I just were, you see all kinds of surveillance that we have not yet approached, but it's considered normal over there.
[53:56.080 --> 53:59.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that's something that's very sobering because we're definitely heading in that direction.
[53:59.660 --> 54:07.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: And if we don't do something about it, yeah, our every movement is going to be tracked and we're going to live in fear when there isn't a camera behind us watching what's going on.
[54:07.800 --> 54:09.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: We won't feel safe at all.
[54:09.840 --> 54:10.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[54:10.080 --> 54:17.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it's instructive and it takes, but it, but it takes, um, we're really excited about these kinds of projects and we'd love to do them all, but it really takes people out there.
[54:17.780 --> 54:25.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that's what excites us so much about hope and events like that, because people step up, they create websites, they create projects and they do really creative stuff.
[54:25.660 --> 54:26.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: So absolutely.
[54:26.520 --> 54:30.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: As soon as we hear about this kind of stuff, we want, we love to spread it around and, and help people organize.
[54:31.120 --> 54:31.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: And as you said, be vigilant.
[54:31.980 --> 54:35.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let me also say to the caller that, uh, this will probably interest you a lot at our conference.
[54:35.680 --> 54:43.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: We have an ex NSA analyst, uh, who turned whistleblower, uh, giving one of our keynotes on Friday, the 13th of July.
[54:43.700 --> 54:48.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, uh, go to www.hope.net and you'll see all the information on William Binney.
[54:48.660 --> 54:56.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, and it's going to be really, really fascinating and a very courageous guy with all kinds of, uh, of information and knowledge and experience.
[54:56.200 --> 54:56.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[54:56.900 --> 54:58.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's see if we can fit in one more phone call.
[54:58.720 --> 54:59.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[54:59.220 --> 55:00.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: You are on off the hook.
[55:00.980 --> 55:01.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh dear.
[55:01.560 --> 55:02.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a dial tone.
[55:02.340 --> 55:03.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's try another call over there.
[55:03.920 --> 55:04.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[55:04.280 --> 55:04.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're on off the hook.
[55:05.360 --> 55:06.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, go ahead.
[55:06.860 --> 55:07.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Speak up.
[55:07.740 --> 55:08.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[55:08.240 --> 55:08.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[55:08.920 --> 55:09.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[55:09.260 --> 55:09.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[55:09.700 --> 55:11.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just, um, I had a question for you.
[55:11.840 --> 55:19.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, on law and disorder, there was some talk about, you know, how Google is using, uh, collecting, uh, users information in a database.
[55:20.400 --> 55:25.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, there's something called start page for, for searches that, uh, provide privacy.
[55:26.980 --> 55:36.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, do you have any, uh, any, uh, thoughts on that or similar technology, you know, similar types of sites that anonymize you when you do searches?
[55:37.180 --> 55:40.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, are we getting blank stares here in the studio?
[55:40.380 --> 55:43.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, I, I know there are sites, um, that do anonymize.
[55:43.840 --> 55:44.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Like the tour project.
[55:44.860 --> 55:46.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's a, that's a pretty big one out there right now.
[55:46.660 --> 55:46.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[55:46.860 --> 55:49.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's, uh, anonymizing and your, all of your browsing basically.
[55:50.060 --> 55:50.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[55:50.340 --> 55:50.340]  Yeah.
[55:50.740 --> 55:55.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: The tour project, tour project, uh, or G I believe T, uh, T O R project.
[55:55.700 --> 55:57.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, that's probably the best known.
[55:57.420 --> 56:00.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I think that's something that doesn't actually solve this particular problem.
[56:00.600 --> 56:06.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, because Google still, if you sign into Google, they still know who you are even on tour.
[56:06.780 --> 56:09.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, so how do you, how do you hide Mike?
[56:09.360 --> 56:09.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's very hard.
[56:10.080 --> 56:10.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[56:10.440 --> 56:14.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was a project called Google sharing, um, which is a great project a couple of years ago.
[56:14.640 --> 56:24.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know if it still works where it would like, uh, have like a centralized repository of all people's different Google cookies and we'd like give you a random one when you tried to search for things on Google.
[56:24.500 --> 56:29.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: So you would, you know, I could be Kyle and Kyle could be someone else and, and, and so on down the chain.
[56:29.500 --> 56:29.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Totally.
[56:30.120 --> 56:31.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, but I don't know if it's still running.
[56:31.620 --> 56:31.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[56:32.120 --> 56:37.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's kind of like those, uh, um, price club things where your, um, customer loyalty cards, you swap them around.
[56:37.360 --> 56:37.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[56:37.640 --> 56:37.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[56:38.020 --> 56:39.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Last phone call and good evening.
[56:39.540 --> 56:40.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: You are on off the hook.
[56:41.580 --> 56:41.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[56:41.940 --> 56:42.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hi.
[56:42.480 --> 56:43.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: Speak up quickly.
[56:44.720 --> 56:45.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[56:45.140 --> 56:47.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm trying to connect with someone in 2600.com.
[56:48.460 --> 56:48.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh huh.
[56:48.880 --> 56:51.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: What do you mean you're trying to connect to somebody in 2600.com?
[56:51.260 --> 56:51.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: What does that mean?
[56:52.980 --> 56:57.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, well, I've been working with Stevie D and he's trying to connect me with the manual Goatstein or...
[56:57.960 --> 56:58.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh huh.
[56:58.800 --> 56:59.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[56:59.640 --> 56:59.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[56:59.960 --> 57:01.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you're calling into a radio program right now.
[57:01.940 --> 57:03.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you mean to be calling in over the radio?
[57:05.380 --> 57:07.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I hope I'm not on the air.
[57:07.180 --> 57:07.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[57:07.580 --> 57:07.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[57:07.940 --> 57:10.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: You are on the air because you called the airline, but I'm going to fade you down now.
[57:10.920 --> 57:14.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: And hopefully, uh, you can talk to Stevie about just, uh, what number to call and when.
[57:14.940 --> 57:16.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, we're out of time now.
[57:16.580 --> 57:23.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, uh, if you want to write to us, um, and not be on the radio, write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[57:23.580 --> 57:24.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: That is our email address.
[57:25.360 --> 57:27.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, uh, we, um, we'll be on again next week.
[57:27.920 --> 57:29.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: And Rob, I believe there are meetings this Friday.
[57:29.680 --> 57:30.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is that true?
[57:30.200 --> 57:30.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, indeed.
[57:31.080 --> 57:32.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, 2600.com slash meetings.
[57:33.420 --> 57:34.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Find your local one or start one.
[57:34.820 --> 57:37.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: And don't forget that Hope is coming up.
[57:37.220 --> 57:40.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hackers on Planet Earth is coming up next week, next weekend.
[57:40.820 --> 57:43.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, Friday the 13th, Saturday the 14th, Sunday the 15th.
[57:43.700 --> 57:49.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this is your last week to, uh, get advanced, uh, pre-registration tickets at a discounted rate.
[57:49.540 --> 57:52.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, so go to www.hope.net for information on that.
[57:52.740 --> 57:58.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: And all the various speakers and panels that we have and activities and all kinds of, uh, fun stuff.
[57:58.400 --> 58:00.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: In the meantime, enjoy your, uh, 4th of July.
[58:00.960 --> 58:02.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: We will see you next week.
[58:02.380 --> 58:02.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good night.
[58:03.680 --> 58:06.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: When I get older, I will be stronger.
[58:06.940 --> 58:10.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: They'll call me freedom, just like a waving flag.
[58:10.780 --> 58:15.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: And then it goes back, and then it goes back, and then it goes back, oh.
[58:16.300 --> 58:19.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Born to a throne, stronger than Rome.
[58:19.200 --> 58:22.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: But violent prone, poor people's known.
[58:22.760 --> 58:25.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it's my home, all I have known.
[58:25.780 --> 58:28.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Where I got grown, streets we would roam.
[58:29.080 --> 58:32.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Out of the darkness, I came the farthest.
[58:32.200 --> 58:34.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Among the hardest, survival.
[58:35.080 --> 58:38.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: Learn from these streets, it can be bleak.
[58:38.320 --> 58:40.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Accept no defeat, surrender, retreat.
[58:40.980 --> 58:44.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: So we struggle then, fighting to each.
[58:44.540 --> 58:47.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we wonder if, when we'll be free.
[58:47.600 --> 58:50.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: So we patiently wait, for that fateful day.
[58:50.860 --> 58:53.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not far away, but for now we say.
[58:54.220 --> 58:57.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: When I get older, I will be stronger.
[58:57.420 --> 59:00.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: They'll call me freedom, just like a waving flag.
[59:00.760 --> 59:02.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, I'm Ella Joyce.
[59:02.100 --> 59:07.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: And when I'm in New York, I listen to WBAI 99.5 FM.
[59:07.740 --> 59:09.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: The more you listen, the more you learn.