Hi, my name is Asif Muhammad. When I'm in New York, I always have my radio tuned to 99.5 FM WBAI.
When I'm traveling, I listen on the web at WBAI.org.
And the time is just about 7 o'clock p.m. Eastern United States time.
You are listening to WBAI 99.5 New York, and it's time for another exciting episode of Off The Hook.
I hope that's understood. One, two, three, go!
And a very good evening to you. The show is Off The Hook. Rob T. Firefly here with you, and I'm joined in the studio by Mike.
Hello.
And we have Bernie S. on the phone.
Do we really have Bernie S. on the phone?
Yeah, I'm here.
Oh, wow, amazing.
Pennsylvania.
There you are. And we do not have Emanuel Goldstein because of traffic.
Apparently when it rains, it's not even raining that hard, but apparently when it rains, it makes driving take longer, and he hasn't quite figured this out yet.
But it might be hailing.
It's not here.
That's good.
I mean, at least as of a few minutes ago when I was last outside.
Bernie, did you hear about this story?
Some guy got banned from Twitter, a journalist got banned from Twitter for tweeting an email address.
Yeah, I heard.
Well, it wasn't for tweeting an email address.
Apparently it was for violating a Twitter policy of not tweeting a private email address of somebody who works for NBC, apparently.
That guy's email address was already on the internet.
It wasn't private or anything.
Not to mention the guy's email address was like firstname.lastname at NBC.com.
Like everybody else at NBC.
It's not very hard to guess.
And this is a policy I've never heard of before.
It certainly hasn't been enforced before to my knowledge.
But one of the interesting things about this is that Twitter and NBC are partnering for Olympics coverage.
And the emails in question, which were from a British journalist, by the way, were complaining about NBC's Olympics coverage.
So one has to wonder if there's any sort of connection.
Wait, Olympics?
What's that?
I've heard something about that.
I don't know.
It's apparently some like massive traffic jam that they have in London this year.
Something to do with lots more cameras being set up and civil rights being violated and stuff like that.
Isn't that what they do year-round in London?
True, true.
But I think they've turned it up to 11 for this.
It's a very special occasion.
So this guy apparently has been asking Twitter to tell him why, what exactly he did to violate the policy.
And supposedly they haven't responded to his inquiries.
Well, his account has been reinstated, but they still haven't explained why it was ever canceled in the first place.
Or at least not to anyone's satisfaction.
I mean, this is the sort of thing that happens all the time on the Internet.
But Twitter has sort of held itself out as the people who won't do this.
And it is apparently the case that at least in certain circumstances they will do this, and that's a bit worrying.
Yeah.
I mean, it's one thing to get kicked off an IRC channel, but Twitter's a different story.
Do you think we can maybe move to a different Twitter?
That's the problem with these centralized services.
It's very hard to give up.
No one's going to give up Twitter just because they did one thing wrong, and then maybe they'll do another thing wrong.
And soon they'll be doing lots of things wrong, and they'll be entrenched.
Well, there seems to be no accountability.
So what if Twitter violates somebody's – violates their own policy by – well, they probably didn't violate their own policy.
What if they just kicked somebody off for no apparent reason?
And they don't have to suffer the consequences by doing that.
It's not like you could sue them for suspending your account because you don't pay them anything for it.
Well, you wouldn't win anyway.
Exactly.
And who has the resources to hire a lawyer just because they got kicked off of Twitter?
So when you rely on these proprietary communications mediums like Twitter, you're kind of at the mercy of the provider.
And when a lot of people start relying it as their primary form of communication or as a primary form, like you said, what do you do when they just kick you off for no apparent reason?
So who got kicked off of what now?
If you've been paying attention.
We kicked you off the show.
I've been running like a maniac through the streets of New York trying to get here on time.
And let me tell you, it rained today.
It rained hard.
And apparently – I've seen people crashing into each other.
I've seen people just staring into space.
It just slows things down quite a bit.
I put the blame on me because I bit off more than I could chew.
I thought I could make it here on time and perform some errands.
But no.
Oh, boy.
It was something else.
But the good news is the smart car is basically defying the odds and running against all the computer projections.
But who got kicked off of Twitter?
That's more important.
A British journalist whose name I can't find.
Okay.
Anonymous British journalist got kicked off of Twitter.
I think I heard about this.
Guy Adams is his name.
Well, I also heard about the guy who tweeted something offensive about a British swimmer in the Olympics.
That guy got arrested.
He got arrested for saying something nasty about the guy's dead father.
Apparently, he didn't know he was dead at the time.
And I guess in England, there's a certain word for that, like malicious thought or something like that or malicious speech.
They've never been on IRC before, so they don't know what that is really like.
But, yeah, you can actually go to jail for that, for saying, yeah, you know, he said you let your father down.
You really let your father down, which I guess to a guy whose father has just died, that's a very harsh thing to say.
So there were apparently nastier messages that followed that, but not that nasty.
Like just nasty words, not like actual violence or anything like that.
And there was a court case not that long ago in Britain that ruled you can say nasty things on Twitter.
They're still arresting people for it anyway.
Well, yeah, it sure seems that way anyway.
I just realized Kyle's not here.
We both left Midtown about the same time, and he was in a retail establishment.
And I said, you know what?
It's probably quicker if you take the train because I was in a car, and I wasn't able to stop any place.
So I just headed.
That was over an hour ago, and he still hasn't made it here by train.
So, oh, boy.
Yeah, it's chaos out there.
He's saying it's two-hour delays just to get out of the city or to get into the city.
It's not even raining anymore.
It's not raining.
People, stop panicking.
It's not so bad.
I don't know what's happening out there.
I do know what's happening out there.
I just don't understand it.
But, yeah, so there have been some other things concerning Twitter.
Actually, this is something that we've mentioned before.
But do you remember the name Paul Chambers?
That's the guy who was found guilty of sending a menacing tweet in 2010.
Yeah, that's the one I was just referencing.
Oh, he became a journalist?
I thought he was just somebody who said he was going to blow up an airport.
I don't know.
Why didn't he become a journalist?
Is he a journalist now?
Well, he said, crap, Robin Hood Airport is closed.
You've got a week and a bit to get your crap together.
He didn't say that word.
Otherwise, I am blowing the airport sky high.
And a week later, he was arrested by anti-terror police for making a bomb threat.
Yeah, so his conviction was overturned.
I wasn't aware he was a journalist, though.
Does posting on Twitter make you a journalist now?
Who says he's a journalist?
You did, just now.
No.
I said someone else on Twitter.
Oh, okay.
I thought you said it was the same guy we were talking about.
No, no, no.
Different guy, same country.
Well, they're different people.
You know that, right?
Everybody in England is different.
Some of them are even in Scotland or Wales.
I don't know where these ones are.
I was just over there.
I can confirm that.
Or Northern Ireland.
No one ever talks about that.
It was pretty funny watching that whole thing unfold.
Because, of course, there was a hashtag created for it,
Pound Twitter Joke Trial.
And he's gotten basically all these Twitter luminaries and UK luminaries on his side.
Stephen Fry, people like that, just pointing out how absurd and insane this was.
And still he had to go through the whole system.
And it had to hit the courts before somebody decided that maybe he wasn't serious
when he said he was going to blow up the airport that he was upset at.
Yeah, it hit several courts.
The first couple of courts to look at it convicted him.
And then, I guess, the high court was the most—they read it and they were like,
Really? We convicted a guy for this?
That's stupid.
You know, since this is the first program that we've actually been on in a while
that we're not begging for money.
In fact, it was very unfortunate for us because the show before our conference,
the show after our conference, and the show after that were all fundraising programs.
We didn't really get a chance to talk about the conference
and invite the listeners to talk about the conference.
So I'd like to do that this show.
If people were at the HOPE Conference a couple of weeks ago, whenever that was,
it seems like it just ended, but it's fresh in our memories.
We invite you to call us tonight and tell us your experiences, highlights, lowlights,
whatever it is that you want to reminisce about.
And if by chance you weren't there and you want to know more about it
or ask questions or theorize, you're welcome to call as well.
The phone number will be—it is right now, but we'll be taking phone calls in a little bit—
212-209-2900.
Also, during the conference, we managed to pull together at the last minute
a sort of impromptu episode of Off the Hook,
which went over the airwaves on Radio Statler.
Oh, that was real. You know, I wasn't sure if that was a dream
because I basically was operating in very little sleep,
and I remember at some point being pulled into some room someplace
and being told that this was an edition of Off the Hook.
And I just—I tried to do the best I could, but how did that come out?
You were a bit there, and our listeners can hear how that came out.
If you go to radio.hope.net, they've put that episode up for download.
Oh, really?
Yes, indeed.
Oh, wow. How scary.
You can hear us all while we're all in various stages of unconsciousness
due to working on that conference 24-7.
Now, okay, we're going to get back to that particular conference,
but there was another conference.
And, you know, the thing that kind of annoys me a little bit
is that there has been so much press attention
and so many people have written in.
So many people have written in, even though we talked about this last week,
saying, hey, are you aware that the director of the NSA
showed up at a hacker conference?
And, of course, yeah, he was the keynote speaker at DEF CON, Keith Alexander,
and a very interesting choice.
I don't begrudge the choice at all.
But, you know, the media, you know, you're missing a golden opportunity here.
Yeah, the NSA director shows up at one hacker conference,
and meanwhile you have another NSA analyst for over 30 years
showing up at a different hacker conference,
basically refuting each other.
One's saying, oh, no, we don't spy on American citizens at all,
and the other one's saying that's what they do
and that's what they've been doing for a while,
and that's why I quit and that's why I became a whistleblower.
It just seems to me it would have been a good story,
and they might have been wise to pay more attention to that.
It would have had a better story, I believe.
But, instead, I'm just seeing the same thing over and over again.
This guy comes to a hacker conference, hackers welcome him,
and, yeah, you know, they're not spying on us.
Maybe we should trust the NSA.
Not good, I don't think.
No, so General Alexander, who's the head of the NSA,
did not say we're not spying on Americans.
He said we are not compiling a dossier on every American,
and I'm sure that he's twisted the words dossier and every American
in such ways that what he said may have been literally true
but conveyed a misleading impression,
and they're very good at this in certain quarters.
Yeah, that's certainly true,
and in front of however many people he was speaking,
I hate to think how many people were taken in by that.
It sure would have been nice, and I don't know.
I haven't seen the talk.
I haven't seen if there was a Q&A.
If anyone actually asked some of the questions
that our own William Binney basically laid out
as far as what the NSA has been doing and why it's so problematic.
There was like a funneled Q&A, and I haven't seen it myself,
but according to the reporting, there was like a funneled Q&A
where people could submit their questions in advance.
Oh, no, that's not Q&A.
Then the head of the event asked the most interesting ones
and didn't follow up when General Alexander gave non-answers
like the one I just summarized.
You see, when we have Q&A, basically,
anybody can get to the microphone, can ask a question,
and sometimes it's a stupid question.
Sometimes it's a confrontational question.
Sometimes it's a softball, but everybody has a chance,
kind of like when we take phone calls here.
So, yeah, if you're going to have the head of a governmental agency there,
let the crowd loose and see what happens,
see how they can defend themselves.
One thing the NSA was doing at that event was they were recruiting.
In fact, there is a jobs page on the NSA's own site now
aimed toward attendees of that conference.
Is it true they put the NSA recruitment table
right next to the EFF recruitment table?
Is that true, or is that just an urban legend?
That would be funny if they did that. I don't know.
Because who did we have next to our EFF recruitment table?
I think we had a MakerBot or something.
I don't know that EFF has a recruitment table in quite the same way.
They were definitely taking names. Well, not taking names,
but if you wanted to help out, you could sign some things, donate money.
Unfortunately, the EFF doesn't have anywhere near the budget of the NSA,
so they can't hire quite as aggressively.
There's some really intense marketing speak, though, on this page.
I've got it up here.
I could read some of this, if you like.
You could. Go ahead.
It says, Attention DEFCON 20 attendees.
This is on NSA.gov slash careers slash DC20.
If you're up on your game,
you already know the National Security Agency and what we do,
so we won't bother with an explanation,
and you probably already know why you're here.
At NSA, we don't crack codes and develop new encryption algorithms
just for the fun of it, but don't tell our tech teams that.
Around here, it's all about the endgame,
keeping you and your family safe and secure,
so we can all enjoy the simple things in life,
like buying new gear and going to DEFCON 21
without the threat of harm from foreign adversaries.
There's sort of a standard career pitch here.
Are foreign adversaries targeting DEFCON 21?
Evidently.
Is that a thing that they do, the foreign adversaries?
Well, you know, it just gets people in the wrong mindset.
I believe one of these stories I'm looking at right now,
they say we need great talent,
we don't pay as high as some of the others,
but we are fun to be around,
and you guys are the best cyber community there is,
and it's all about securing our nation's infrastructure
and things like that, and, you know,
it's not really hackers' concern.
I don't think it should be.
And I love the closing line of this page, though,
that says, by the way, if you think you saw cool things
at DEFCON 20, just wait until you cross the threshold
to NSA, because you ain't seen nothing yet.
That's what the NSA said?
That's what the NSA said.
Okay, well, that sounds intriguing, but you know what?
If you go down there and you try and see the NSA for yourself,
you're going to be met with, I don't know,
how many police cars was that, Kyle, that we were met with?
Oh, wait, he's still not here, is he?
Okay, well, to answer for him,
we were met with four police cars just for being there
and not a very welcoming attitude at all.
You know, I dare say they're not quite as cool
as DEFCON people in the NSA.
At least they haven't shown that side to me.
Anyway, so, yeah.
Oh, there it is.
Oh, yeah, now, this is actually from the HOPE conference.
That is the voice of William Binney,
and you can go there right now.
You can go to www.hope.net and listen.
They were keeping each other happy.
Listen to what William Binney had to say for yourself.
Judge for yourself.
It's all there, www.hope.net.
The audio of every single talk has been put up.
Wait, every single talk is already online?
It's already online.
Oh, that's amazing.
Yeah, we really went nuts this year.
The videos are all available.
Go to 2600.com to find out how to get those,
and the audio is all up online for free
just to download and listen to.
So it's a fascinating talk, and it's a fascinating subject.
I'm glad we're talking about it,
and I'm glad we're having people like this speak,
but I really want to make sure that the right questions
are given a chance at least to be asked.
Bernie, what do you think about all this?
About the whole NSA thing?
Yeah.
I think it was a stark contrast between not to drive a wedge
between DEFCON and HOPE,
but I think it shows a stark contrast
where HOPE hosts a senior NSA analyst-turned-whistleblower
who quit because he saw NSA violating the law
and violating people's constitutional rights,
and he quit over it and went public, risking his own freedom,
whereas DEFCON, we have the chief mouthpiece for the NSA,
extolling its virtues.
I think that speaks volumes.
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's great to have all sides represented,
but let's have it all be open to debate, to question.
That's sort of what we did with the, what do you call it, panel,
the snitch panel a couple of years ago,
where we had Adrian Lamo and we had FiberOptic
and you and me and Kevin Mitnick
all basically talking about the reality of informants
in the hacker community and how that's a real problem.
We had one of them right there up on stage answering questions,
some quite spirited from the audience,
and that dialogue needs to be had on a variety of levels.
Okay.
Well, I'm glad we're all in agreement on that.
Should we take phone calls?
Because I'm still rather flustered after running down some streets
and our listeners have not had a chance to weigh in in quite a while.
Here's actually a listener who did weigh in
and asked a question of us a couple of weeks ago.
He wanted to know the artist or performer who did the music
at the end of the July 18, 2012 Off The Hook show.
It had a slide guitar.
It was very relaxing, a little reverb to it, very nice,
except when it overpowers your voice,
it's a little too much.
And, of course, that's the melodic sound of Brian Eno.
Yeah.
I'm sorry?
What track?
Oh, I'm sorry.
Was it Big Green Sky?
Yeah, it is.
No, Deep Blue Day, that's what it is.
That's totally different.
It's Deep Blue Day by Brian Eno.
Yeah, that's the one.
All right.
Don't get the other one.
Not to be confused with Another Green World by Brian Eno.
Yeah, don't confuse it with anything.
So our phone number is 212-209-2900.
If people have any comments about Hope
or about things that have been going on in the hacker world
in the last few weeks,
we want to thank everybody who supported us during the fundraiser.
We did very well, extremely well, and that's good for all of us.
It's good for the radio station, good for the radio show,
and for all the future projects that we get involved in,
and there will be many of them.
Do remember, of course, to pay your pledge
if you didn't pay by credit card already.
Yeah, a number of people pledged for the Hope No. 9 DVDs,
which really skyrocketed through the roof.
They're not available anymore,
but if you pledge for them, yes, you will be getting them.
And, of course, if you'd like to just throw us a little support,
when it's not fundraising time, you can still do that on WBAI.org.
We can't give you premiums for it,
but you can still show your support for Off the Hook in particular
and for WBAI in general.
Okay, so we have some calls coming in.
Shall we turn down this nice soothing music and go to the phones?
All right, let's do that.
And good evening. You're on Off the Hook.
Yeah, how you doing? This is not a Hope issue.
I wanted to mention the utilities, the gas, electric, and water
are all trying to put in smart meters at houses.
They're kind of forcing it on you.
There is a way to fight it.
I wonder what your take on them is.
Not only that, I had heart surgery, and I was in AFib, and I'm not.
My rhythm is correct.
I am concerned.
I am on a drug to help keep me from going back to AFib.
I'm concerned. Could you give me your opinion?
Are these two issues related?
I'm sorry?
The issues about smart meters and the heart issue.
Yeah, some people think they are related.
Yeah, I've heard that said.
But ostensibly because the emitted RF energy
and the type of modulation that the wireless smart meters use
could interfere with pacemakers and things like that.
But the power these things have is like a fraction of what cell phones use.
So if you're worried about the concerns you just expressed,
then you shouldn't be using a cell phone
or go anywhere near anybody who's using a cell phone
because they're going to be far more dangerous by that logic.
There's also not a whole lot of evidence for this claim that I'm aware of, at least.
I know there's a movement to protect you from it.
From what?
Actually, some others have different takes on it.
The other thing, though, is they say that you're charged, I think, $600 if you refuse.
If you refuse what?
To let them put the smart meters in, which I find interesting.
Okay, apart from the hard issue or non-issue,
what is your objection to the smart meters?
There's a privacy concern, but I don't really care if they decide
when I put my dryer and my stove and my microwave on flat screen.
That's part of what they're saying that's so important to them.
Well, that is a valid concern, and that's something that I share, actually,
that a company…
Sorry?
Hello, can you hear me?
You guys just have to not speak at the same time.
Bernie, you should know this by now if they're doing this for decades.
Yeah, there is a privacy concern because these smart meters can tell the utility
when you're using, say, your electric meter, for instance,
can tell your electric utility exactly how much power you're using and when.
By looking at that information, someone could determine when you're home
and when you're not home kind of thing,
and who do they share that information with?
We don't know.
Whereas the old mechanical meters or the meters that weren't so smart
but would just send out the monthly billing amount to the network,
you wouldn't have that same kind of vulnerability.
So I think that's the only valid concern I can think of.
I don't think there's any valid safety concerns with these smart meters.
I appreciate it.
I'm the Suffolk County Elections Inspector that tries to call you guys,
and I'm over in Brentwood. Right, Bernie?
Okay, you succeed quite a bit.
So thanks for calling in.
Let's take another call.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Speak up, please.
Some people get through.
Are you there?
Is somebody there?
Yes.
I just wanted to correct something that I think your co-host just said on the air
a minute ago, if I could be of help.
The statement was something like,
you can't get a premium if you call in because we're now not in the fund drive,
but actually all they have to do is to make a contribution.
They still can get a premium, fund drive or no.
That's not what we said.
We said you can't get those DVDs.
You can get a premium.
Sure, you can get a premium anytime by going to WBAI.org and pledging.
We were saying you cannot get the Hope No. 9 collection.
That was it.
You can get it anytime, right?
You can just call in and get a premium.
Okay, you can't get that anytime.
You can get a premium.
You can't get that premium anytime.
Well, maybe so, but I thought we could get any premium.
Oh, definitely so.
You can get the premiums that are listed.
Go to WBAI.org.
But you can't get that because there is a really special deal for that one particular hour.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Hey, guys.
I just wanted to thank you for an amazing conference.
Oh, someone actually calling about the conference.
Wow.
How about that?
I got hip to what you guys were doing about two years ago through BAI.
I got to shake your hand, Emmanuel, and you too, Bernie, at the end of the conference.
Yeah, thank you.
And, yeah, I mean, just I'm so inspired.
I've been trying to share as much information as possible.
I've listened to the talk with Mogul, Eben Mogul, over and over again.
I've listened to the Binney talk over and over again just trying to wrap my head around, you know, all that's being said there, which is quite a bit.
I think one thing that I would really like to see more of is just more ways, which, I mean, I guess it's kind of a huge thing to say, but just more ways of breaking this down to size for people who can notice how interesting this is but are just totally overwhelmed by the code and the technical aspect of everything.
Was this your first conference?
Absolutely.
One thing I think is interesting as well is that people, because computers are somewhat intimidating to people if you're not a computer person.
You generally tend to be intimidated by computers and technology, but it's kind of interesting because the theory is just fascinating regardless.
There's a lot of things that maybe I can't do per se in other realms outside of technology, but for some reason just the simple fact of it being related to computers intimidates a lot of people.
But I've been trying to reach out to as many people as possible to say, hey, look, we really have to take some time to consider this stuff theoretically because it's very important as far as the world we live in at this point.
Yeah, and if you'd like to continue to share that kind of knowledge, this week, this Friday, 2600 meetings are happening everywhere, including probably near you.
So if you go to 2600.com slash meetings, you can find out where the meetings are.
And if there isn't one by you, you can start one.
I almost forgot.
It's the first Friday.
I've actually met you, Mr. Firefly, at the 2600 meetings, which are also great.
I mean, it's really exciting what you guys are doing.
I just think if there's some way that someone could make a handbook.
I mean, I know it sounds ridiculous, but I mean that almost symbolically more than literally.
But if there's just ways of – some people basically, including myself, need their hands held in walking into some of this stuff.
I personally was curious enough that I jumped in myself.
But if there are ways of breaking some of this stuff down to size, some of these security concerns.
And also, frankly, I mean, I think in discussing this, it's so scary to me how many people say, oh, well, I'm not doing anything bad.
Therefore, I grant the government or whoever, whatever agency the right to surveil me.
Well, that's not the point.
If you're doing something bad or not, don't relinquish your right to privacy so easily.
Thank you.
Well said.
Well said.
Listen, thanks for calling.
Thanks for attending.
And hopefully, you'll be back at the next one.
I sure will.
Thank you, guys.
All right.
Take care.
And yeah, the way we're going, the next one will be in 2014.
And we don't yet have a name, but it'll be our 10th conference.
Let's take another phone call.
212-209-2900.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Thanks for calling.
Thanks for attending.
Speak up, please.
Turn your radio down.
Oh, sorry.
Can you hear me?
Yes.
Yeah, I know.
Thanks.
I had tons and tons of fun there.
I actually brought my mom to the conference, and she learned lockpicking for the first
time, and she's been doing that a lot.
Oh, wow.
You brought your mom to learn lockpicking, and that's amazing.
That's the kind of thing that we really need to do more of.
Yeah, I know.
No, she had a great time.
And I really just wanted to call to say, while there hasn't been an exact day, I don't think,
technically, yesterday was the 30th anniversary of the Commodore 64, which is one of my favorite
computers, even though I personally started on a Lisa.
I just wanted to say that on air.
Cool.
And this was your first conference?
No.
You've probably seen me around before.
It's this side pocket.
I've been around.
I started with the last Hope, and that was my first conference ever in any sort of hacking
or computer thing, and it just blew me away.
And I started to go to other conferences, like Nonacon stuff, but nothing ever made
up to Hope.
And Hope is like my Super Bowl every two years, so I'm always excited, and I can't wait to
two years from now, where my mom and I hope to attend all three days.
Well, hopefully, yeah, that'll happen.
Definitely.
All right, well, thanks for the call.
Thanks for the feedback, and thanks for bringing your mom in.
I think that really makes a difference.
I like to think we're a lot more participatory than the Super Bowl.
Well, yeah.
I mean, everybody's welcome, and it's not priced out of...
Well, the Super Bowl, there's like, whatever, 50 people who are playing in it, and the rest
of the people just watch.
They have to pay through the nose to watch, which is pretty crazy.
By the way, speaking of watching sporting events, with the Olympics, have you heard
about this with the badminton team, the badminton through matches?
Big scandal.
I can't find video anywhere of this, and I think the people who run the Olympics have
just sort of erased that from history.
All I see on newscasts are still images of people with badminton rackets, but no video
of them actually throwing the match, and it was certainly recorded, certainly broadcast
in various places, but they're doing a good job controlling this.
So if anyone out there has video of this, I want to hear about it.
OTH at 2600.com.
Go ahead, Bernie.
I saw it.
I saw the bad badminton.
Did you see it live, or have you seen a news report about it since?
I saw it just a few minutes before the show on ABC Disney News.
Oh, really?
They broadcast it, and it was pretty funny.
I mean, they were just pretty much standing there and making lame attempts to hit the
whatever the thing is, the shuttlecock.
And it was amusing, and the crowd was booing them, and the judge was yelling at them.
But that must be online, although it would be interesting if the IOC, the International
Olympic Committee, was censoring this and not allowing people to see it.
But you might find it on the Disney News, ABC News website, perhaps.
Okay.
Well, then I stand corrected, and I look forward to seeing this, because it sounds really hilarious.
It was.
212-209-2900.
Let's take some more listener phone calls.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Speak up, please.
Communist faggots.
Go to—
Okay.
All right.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Go ahead.
Hello.
Hi.
This is Ken.
Welcome, Ken.
Turn down your radio, or you'll get very confused.
Even more confused than we are.
Okay.
You know, keep the radio nearby.
Okay.
I got the radio off.
Good.
Good.
Okay.
What's on your mind?
I just wanted to bring your attention to an article I recently saw in Aviation Week and
Space Technology.
Aviation Week.
And the title of the article was, quote, hackers versus cyber warriors, unquote.
Okay.
And tell us something about it.
Okay.
And it was about how, among other things, Israel is trying to recruit their cyber warriors.
And they screen, like, 17-year-olds.
Since everyone there has to go into the military, they screen everyone.
And it's one of, like, ten different programs they have to screen, you know, basically high
school students with aptitude for certain things.
The best known is their screening for Air Force pilots so that they can be given intensive
training early.
And there was also a discussion in the article about how they might have to go after potential
candidates earlier, like 13- and 14-year-olds, you know, before they get seduced by either
criminal organizations or, quote, foreign nationals, unquote.
Okay.
There's the foreign nationals again.
Yep.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, I mean, a lot of militaries are trying to recruit people to, you know, fulfill the
aims of those militaries.
Some of them apparently even show up at DEF CON to do the recruiting.
Well, because, you know, you have to get people before they've developed a conscience in a
lot of cases.
But you're saying people 7th grade and under don't have a conscience?
I'm saying it's not as developed or it's differently developed than an adult's conscience.
Or maybe it's just too well-developed and it gets completely torn apart as you get older.
Maybe.
I think we'll get some letters from some elementary school kids today.
I look forward to them.
OTH at 2600.com, kids.
Let's take another phone call, 212-209-2900.
And good evening.
You're on Off The Hook.
I enjoyed myself so much at the Hope Conference.
And, you know, Emanuel, I spoke with you for a moment on Saturday asking you if Jello Biafra
was going to be there.
And I was so sad to hear that he wasn't.
I do hope that if you do another conference, you can get Jello back.
But one thing that was the greatest surprise of all, I had bought an early bird ticket
like for $100.
OK.
And then when I got the credit card bill, the amount wasn't $100.
If you bought an early bird ticket, then it would be less than $100.
Oh, OK.
Yeah.
Because it came out to like $86.05 or something like that.
Well, we never charged that amount.
I'm not quite sure how that could have happened.
I don't know how that happened.
It should be an even number for all I know, unless there's tax and tip on top of your credit card.
I don't know how exactly it works.
But it should have been the amount that you clicked on.
If not, then let us know and we'll look into that.
Well, just letting you know, that's what it came out to.
OK.
But you're happy with everything, how it all went?
It was a great conference.
Great.
A lot of fun.
Well, that's what we want to hear.
And hopefully we'll see you at the next one.
You sure will.
OK.
Bye-bye.
Thanks for your call.
212-209-2900.
And good evening.
You're on Off The Hook.
Speak up.
Boy, there are confused people out there today.
Good evening.
You're on Off The Hook.
Are you there?
Yes.
How are you doing?
What's on your mind?
Can you hear me?
We hear you just loud and clear.
OK.
I'm curious to know whether the guy can tell me about anything that protects you from cell
phone radiation or the radiation that comes from cell phone use.
Yes.
Go ahead, Bernie.
Well, it's not radiation like you think.
It's not like x-rays.
This is, you know, compared to x-rays, this is really low-frequency radio energy, just
a few hundred megahertz.
But if you're concerned about that, the best thing is not to hold the phone to your head.
Use one of those wired headsets, you know, where it's like ear buds.
Plug that into the phone and put those in your ear.
And don't put the phone in your pocket, which would be near your genitalia or anything like
that.
And just have the phone away from you, you know, like a foot or two away from you while
you're talking on a wired headset.
And the laws of physics mean that the signal strength reaching your body will be much,
much, much, much lower when it's not near your body.
So there you go.
OK.
Because one month I spent 6,000 minutes on the phone.
And just before the 6,000th minute, I had a sharp pain that went straight through my
one ear and came out the other.
Use Verizon by any chance?
Because that's part of one of their calling plans, I think.
Right before the 6,000th minute, they jolt you.
To bring you back to reality and say, come on, live life a little bit.
Get off the phone.
You're spending too much time on the phone.
6,000 minutes in a month?
Come on, people.
No, get off the...
I love phones.
I really do.
I like wired phones mostly, but I like all kinds of phones.
But 6,000 minutes, man, that's too much.
OK.
Because somebody had mentioned that their lawyer, which I thought was suspicious to
begin with, gave them a wire...
I mean, yeah, a magnetic tape to put on the back of their battery and that that was supposed
to protect them from radiation.
Nah.
Those don't work at all.
But what works well is get a landline phone.
Yeah.
You won't have any radio signals of any kind to deal with unless it's a cordless.
Let me ask you about T-Firefly.
Do you have a landline phone?
I used to have a landline phone.
Mike, do you have a landline phone?
No.
Bernie, do you have a landline phone?
I do.
It's just not connected to a phone line.
Oh, come on.
You know, it's not so hard.
You just plug it in and start using it.
I'm the only one here that has a landline phone, apparently, maybe even in the whole
block.
Well, I would also advise the caller that if you're feeling physical symptoms, then
you should see a doctor and they'll tell you what's causing it.
Absolutely.
If you feel physical symptoms of any sort, don't call a radio show.
Call a doctor or somebody who knows this kind of thing.
All right.
Thanks for that call.
Let's take another one over here.
Good evening.
You're on Off The Hook.
Yeah.
Good evening.
Yes.
I just wanted to call in and say how much I enjoyed Open.
I was involved with Bernie S. on the Amateur Radio Station setup.
That went really well from everything I'm hearing.
Yeah.
No, it was fantastic.
I mean, the past couple of hoaxes, we had sort of a slow momentum of Bernie leading,
bringing the setup and getting some tenants and co-access.
This year, we really had a great concerted effort.
We made, I think, 15 countries, Bernie, and I don't know how many other contacts.
Mind you, in New York, there's such a loud noise level, all sorts of electronics and
everything else.
For us to punch through and contact Argentina and a couple contacts in Cuba and everything
else is a really good feat.
Those contacts are mostly in reduced power and not even voice.
We're using just digital communications.
Now, for those of you who are at the Hope Conference, these guys were set up right next
to the 2600 store upstairs.
They were the guys running around with radios, acting very excited because they were always
doing something new.
I'd just like to ask two of you, during the conference, did very many new people walk
up to you and say, hey, what are you guys doing?
Yes.
A lot of people did.
In fact, so many people were intrigued by what we were doing.
Basically, we were making voice and data contacts around the world, voice data communications
around the world without any infrastructure between our location and the other people,
which is amazing.
Nothing in between us.
Contacting Russia and Cuba and Germany and Argentina and all kinds of other countries
without anybody in between us operating an infrastructure.
You're speaking voice, Morse code, what?
Voice.
I think there was some Morse code activity, which we call CW, but primarily we were using
a mode called PSK31, which is a digital modulation mode.
It's just typing back and forth, but it works with really high noise levels and it works
with really low power.
So many people were impressed that people decided to come to our amateur radio exam
session on Sunday morning and 20 people passed their ham radio licenses.
Some of them had upgraded their previous license, but most of them were brand new amateur radio
operators or hams.
We've done this at Every Hope for the Past Four Hopes.
About 100 people have passed their ham radio licenses, which is an FCC technical examination
that shows that you know what you're doing technically.
That just warms our hearts that so many people decided to take this exam and show they know
their stuff.
All right.
Caller, anything else you'd like to add?
Yeah.
A lot of people come up and people who already had their licenses and you see there's a lot
of people who typically walk around maybe with the handhelds, but again, we're doing
international communication and they seem to be seeing something familiar, a laptop
in front of the radio.
We're wondering, you know, were the technology and the investment involved and we're showing
you pretty much get involved in this cheaply.
Also, I know we had some other radio equipment.
We had something called software-defined radio, where that is you use as much of the computer
sound and processing capability to process signals so you can look at it rather than
just necessarily listen to it.
I know I'm not doing the description justice, but I think the consistent thing with people
is, okay, great.
I got my license and I got my initial radio.
What next?
How can I get deeper into this and make a sound investment?
Well, one thing, this conference definitely, there was a radio theme of various sorts.
There was the ham radio, internet radio, the Prometheus radio.
People were there.
Of course, there was off the hook, talk of off the hook and of course, talk of the conference
on off the hook.
There's Radio Statler.
So, radio plays a big part in the hacker world in various forms.
Well, thank you very much.
I just wanted to mention that.
Have a great night, everyone.
Thanks for coming.
Okay, and thanks for your call there.
And Kyle, welcome.
You made it.
Yeah, I'm here.
Oh, wait a minute.
Hold on.
Your mic isn't.
Say that again.
Yeah, I'm here.
Oh, there you are.
Okay, good, good.
Yeah, we basically parted ways uptown and I went by car and you went by MTA.
Well, I think we had a bet going to see who could get here sooner.
It wasn't a bet so much as me saying, you know what?
I think you're going to get here before I do, the way things are going.
It was really a disaster out there.
But apparently, it was more of a disaster underground or maybe, well, you were just
over at Zuccotti Park, weren't you?
You were strolling around.
Yeah, I was walking around over there.
But I sort of stopped trying to hurry and just sort of moseyed.
And isn't there a lesson that we can all learn from that?
To just stop with the hustle and bustle just for a minute and smell the flowers.
Well, we were in a lot of traffic and it was like really, really stressful earlier.
It was very stressful.
I think I needed to just relax a little bit.
I was shouting things out the window at various people.
But you know what?
I don't regret any of that because they sure deserved it.
If you're at an intersection and a bus blocks you for the entire green light and then another
bus blocks you and the stupid traffic cop keeps waving the buses in front of you and
won't let you go, any word that you can come up with is certainly worthy of that situation.
And yet, I work in Brooklyn and I got here with time to spare.
Yeah, but you used that flying machine you have.
And I used to work on Long Island and I got here with time to spare.
Yeah, it's difficult, especially when it rains for some reason.
212-209-2900.
Good evening.
You're on Off The Hook.
Oh, good evening.
Hi, how are you?
I just called in just to actually speak about Google Fiber and just if you had heard about
the DEF CON and any insight about that.
Wait, what?
What subject exactly do you want us to talk about?
Actually about the Google Fiber rollout in Kansas City.
Google Fiber robot in Kansas City?
No, rollout.
Oh, okay.
Bernie, you want to talk about that?
From what I've read off the top of my head, Google is becoming an ISP in certain test markets.
They're rolling out insanely fast fiber optic to the home service that's like gigabit.
You can get gigabit or multi-gigabit second speeds for a fraction of what cable companies
and phone companies are charging.
It's like $75 a month, I think.
Or like between $75 and $90.
I don't know exactly if I'm remembering correctly.
And that's for the gigabit uplink.
And then they have also an option where you pay one time, like a one-time setup fee.
It's like $300 or $200.
And you basically get megabit speeds, like five or ten megabits.
And there's no monthly fee after that.
You just pay once and then you get DSL type speeds.
For the rest of your life?
It's guaranteed for seven years, I guess, from the article I read.
I don't know what the startup cost is for the monthly price I said for gigabit.
But it was pretty interesting that if you couldn't do the full gigabit monthly thing,
if you just come up with $300, they'll set it up and you get five or ten megabits
for the guaranteed run of the trial.
If this is a Google service, then I'd be very interested in knowing what the terms are
and how they would use any information they gathered about you
in the manner that Google does when you use their services.
They're very nosy. They look into everything you do.
That was my interesting thing to ask.
If they're going to try to become an ISP and subsidize,
I guess one of your members said it is going to be free for one level, free service.
I just wonder what would happen if Trend were to give up your information
and they'll provide you the ISP.
I wonder. Things like that.
We need to talk about a lot of security and privacy.
I don't feel like Time Warner, which is my internet provider,
has my privacy in high regard.
They may be too incompetent to do anything really evil,
but I don't want to rely on that.
All right. Thanks for that call.
All right. Thank you.
212-209-2900. Taking phone calls tonight.
After a few weeks of not taking phone calls.
We talked about the HOPE Conference, technology,
what's going on in the mass media, various things like that.
Good evening. You're on Off the Hook.
Hi. I'm sorry if this has already been talked about,
but while we're on the subject of Google, what about Google Voice now?
With an ATA, you can hook up to Google Voice
and have a landline through your broadband connection at zero cost.
I was wondering what your opinion would be of that.
That would be VoIP, which isn't quite the same as a landline.
It's still internet data.
Google Voice is converted to digital data and streamed over the internet
as opposed to the trusty old phone system
that would actually connect your phone to telephone company equipment,
which would eventually connect to the other person.
So, yeah, there are many VoIP services out there.
They've all got their pros and cons, and, yeah, they exist.
Well, with the idea that Google Fiber is trying to become an ISP,
I wonder if Google Voice is trying to be a telephone company.
That would be very interesting.
I know you can already get phone numbers through Google
that will go to your Google Voice,
and a couple other VoIP providers, I think, also have telephone numbers available.
So, yeah, they're all sort of tying into everything they can, I think.
Yeah, a lot of them have phone numbers available.
My phone number is a Google Voice phone number.
I think it's a good idea if you want to get away from the regular landline.
Why does everybody want to get away from the regular landline?
That's the thing I don't get, you know?
What's so bad about a regular landline?
It costs tens of dollars a month, and I don't use it very much.
Okay, well, yeah, some things might be worth it, I think.
Go ahead, Carla.
All right, go ahead, Kyle, then.
You get dial tone.
I don't know if you get dial tone with Google Voice.
I'm not sure about that either.
By the way, I should point out, since you're here now, we did a little survey before.
It turns out I'm the only one amongst everybody on the show tonight that has an actual landline in use.
Now there's somebody else in the studio that has a landline in use, correct?
Yeah, I still use a landline.
All right, so there you go.
The thing about VoIP and the big drawback as compared to a landline
is that you still need the Internet connection.
You still need that infrastructure between you.
So if your electricity goes out and you can't use your computer,
you can't hook up to your modem, you can't use your VoIP.
When I have fond memories as a kid of the electricity going out
and picking up the phone and still hearing a dial tone.
How about this?
In the middle of the night, Cablevision tells you,
oh, yeah, we're going down for four hours for maintenance.
When's the last time the phone company went down for maintenance for a landline?
I don't recall that.
I still have a mobile also.
I'm sorry?
I still have a mobile phone, though, of my own personal.
Okay, is that supposed to make us feel better?
I don't think it does.
No, that's just the backup.
Oh, it's a backup, true.
But, you know, again, then you're dependent on antenna strength
and all kinds of other things that mobile phones bring you.
You know, I used to work in an office in Manhattan
where the landlines went down every time it rained.
So I don't want to ballyhoo the reliability of the landline service too much.
You know, growing up and living out a full life,
I can count the number of times landlines have gone out on a single hand.
Evidently, you didn't grow up in Chinatown.
Well, I guess not.
That's one thing I'll have to wonder about.
When you do have a landline, you're guaranteed a path, though,
and I think there's more things that you're responsible for
when you set up ATAs and numbers like that with VoIP.
ATAs?
I don't even know.
It's all these acronyms.
You have to, like, string together different services to set up VoIP,
unless it's run through Google Voice or something.
But I feel like you're responsible for much more
instead of, like, the entire phone system failing,
then it's not really your fault.
As long as it's getting into your premises
and your trusty, like, landline phone still rings,
you're pretty much guaranteed the service.
And it's really handy if you ever want to pick up the phone
and really have someone's ear and make a point or, like, to talk to them.
I feel like you aren't taking it seriously,
like if you're on a cruddy cell phone or something.
And, you know, if you're on a cell phone,
so many times this has happened to me where you're talking
and the other person is still talking and they can't hear you.
You're trying to say,
oh, by the way, being pulled over by cops now,
we can't really talk on the cell phone.
They just keep yammering on.
And then they get upset when you just disconnect
because there's nothing more you can do.
Or there's noise in the background that gets filtered out of the cell phone,
which sometimes is good if there's a siren going by or something like that.
But sometimes it's noise you want the person to be able to hear
and it just gets filtered out, not so on a landline.
Absolutely.
All right, 212-209-2900.
That's our landline.
Yeah, that's right.
We have a landline here as well.
Is our landline real or is it void?
Does anybody know?
It's digital of some sort.
Everything's digital.
I don't know if it's a T1 circuit or an ISDN circuit or what exactly.
Yeah, but you hear this?
I can buy you a computer chip that will make that noise for, like, pennies.
Yeah, but I think this is real.
I think this is a real dial tone.
What is real anymore?
It means something.
What's a real dial tone?
It's all computer generated.
I know I get drug-induced conversations about what is real.
That's a real dial tone, okay?
You can dial on it and all kinds of things will happen.
I'm telling you, you can download Asterisk and install it on your computer
and it will make that noise for free.
It will make the noise, but it won't act the same.
I'm sorry, Bernie, what did you have to say?
Well, if you press zero, see what happens.
Are you going to get a Verizon operator?
No, I think you might get a WBAI operator because it's a PBX.
That's still a landline if it's a PBX.
It's not a local exchange carrier dial tone that you were just playing over the air.
All right, fine, but it's still closer than the things that people are playing on their computers.
Okay, you're funny.
Thank you.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Go ahead.
Hello, guys.
How are you?
We're good.
What are you, drilling something there?
No, I got a UHF radio that folks is opening.
Oh, okay.
It's two things.
I want to play with Google Voice or get internet from Google
because they're going to monitor every packet and listen to your conversations
and check everybody you're talking to, typing to on what sites you go to.
That's the first thing.
Second, there's really no thing that's a POTS line anymore.
You know, private operator, plain old telephone service.
Right.
You say there's no such thing as a POTS line.
Yeah, but the closest thing to that is Verizon,
not Verizon, is Time Warner because they basically connect to AT&T switch.
They take your call digitally over the co-op.
They don't even go over the internet.
They're not really an internet provider.
They go right from your modem to there.
And all of these companies, except for Verizon, where you have a plain old phone line,
the dial tone is generated in your location.
Verizon generates the tone, the dial tone at the site.
It sounds like Verizon is then plain old telephone service.
Yeah, but all your dial tones are 340 and 480, whatever it is.
Well, that's the frequency, yeah.
Right. And that's standardized.
So everything today is generated.
Nothing is generated long distance.
Even your ring is locally generated.
Well, that's true.
Ever since things went digital, I mean, a mechanical switch,
you'd be actually hearing what's inside the central office.
I think the distinction that's being made is whether it's telephone company equipment
that's creating the dial tone versus a machine that you've set up that's generating it
or some website that's processing it and generating it on the client side with a bunch of software.
And, of course, if you go to the Hope site and get the old school freaking panel,
you can hear some recordings of great old noises that the telephone system used to make
back in the analog days that were strictly analog.
That's up on our site?
The audio should be up.
It was one of our talks.
Okay, great.
Yeah, that's right. It was one of our talks.
Go ahead.
The Citigroup building is at the corner of 53rd Street and Lexington Avenue.
You can get to it from Lexington Subway Station.
It's right upstairs.
Is it downstairs?
No, it's the building in New York City.
I know that, but where's the meeting?
It's in the lobby area.
Yeah, in the lobby where you walk right in, there's a big food court area.
All the security guards are looking at us.
If you see the eyes of one of them.
What time is it?
From 5 to 8.
People drift in and out. It's not a formal meeting.
People just basically talk to whomever they feel like talking to.
Just feel free to come and ask a bunch of questions.
Okay, guys.
It's really interesting.
There are plenty of old telephone lines.
It's the most reliable.
When the next big one happens, I think we would rather have the old-fashioned stuff.
Yeah, well, maybe people will realize that someday,
that there's good in some things that are old-fashioned.
I think that's going to just about do it for us tonight,
because we're pretty much out of time.
But it was good hearing from our listeners again.
We haven't heard from them except with their checkbooks
and credit card numbers in the last three weeks.
It was good to see a lot of you at the HOPE Conference
and good to hear your feedback.
If you want to give us more feedback,
write to us at hope.net, feedback on the HOPE Conference, that is.
Tell us what you did,
fun things that you might have experienced,
suggestions for the future, various things like that.
We'd love to hear from you.
And if you want to write to us here at the radio station,
oth at 2600.com is our email address for that.
Also, if you went to the conference
and you want to share a blog post you made
or photos you took or things like that of the conference,
send us those too.
We'd love to see them, hope at hope.net.
That's right.
We're still recovering.
We're still basically getting things back in working order.
But all the videos are done.
And Kyle, you were mostly responsible
for making sure they all got done quickly.
Yes.
And I want to thank Ted for making the recordings
in the first place.
And that guy is simply amazing.
Our EV department for making this the best-sounding conference,
best-looking conference I think we've ever had.
And of course, all the speakers who came
and talked about some really interesting, enlightening topics.
You can listen to all the talks, again, at www.hope.net.
They're all available online for free.
And videos are also available.
Go to www.2600.com for information on that.
And that's going to do it for us here tonight.
We'll see you next week.
♪ Who feels it knows
♪ And I suppose that you never know
♪ You reap what you sow
♪ Can't plant a corn when the peas won't be grown
♪ No
♪ La la la la la la la la la
♪ Oh yeah
♪ La la la la la la la la la la
♪ Oh yeah
♪ La la la la la la la la la
♪ Oh yeah
♪ La la la la la la la la la
♪ Oh yeah
♪ See them hypocrites them come again
♪ Them a spread dirty lies
♪ Them a know me friend
♪ Throw a stone and I'll be hiding
♪ And the one who squeal on him will have a problem
♪ Hey
♪ Who feels it knows
♪ And I suppose them heart made out of stone
♪ Oh
♪ You reap what you sow
♪ Bucket of corn or well pot
♪ I'm bound to drop out
♪ Till
♪ Who feels it knows
♪ And I suppose that you never know
♪ Oh
♪ You reap what you sow
♪ Can't plant a corn when the bees won't feed grow
♪ No
♪ La la la la la la la la la
♪ Oh yeah
♪ La la la la la la la la la
♪ Oh yeah
♪ La la la la la la la la
♪ Oh yeah
♪ La la la la la la la la la
♪ Oh yeah
♪ Yeah
♪ Respect
♪ Every time
♪ Plan
♪ Plamoto
♪ I
♪ Plamoto
♪ Plamoto
♪ Got
♪ Yeah
♪ Got
♪ Yeah