Please send your comments to the WBAI Community Advisory Board, WBAI Radio 388, Atlantic Avenue,
3rd Floor, Brooklyn, New York. The zip code is 11217. Again, send your comments to the WBAI
Community Advisory Board, 388, Atlantic Avenue, 3rd Floor, Brooklyn, New York, 11217. Thanks for
your ideas and invaluable support. And this is Radio Station WBAI New York, existing only
because of your invaluable support. It's time, once again, for Off The Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall. I cut myself while shaving,
now I can't make a call. We couldn't get much worse, but if they could they would.
Bum diddly bum for the best, expect the worst. I hope that's understood. Bum diddly bum!
And a very good evening to everybody. The program is Off The Hook. Emmanuel Goldstein here with you
on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Mike. Hi there. Rob T. Firefly. Good evening.
Kyle. Hi. And Bernie S. Greetings from Pennsylvania. Well, anything unusual happen? Yes, something unusual
has happened. Well, maybe it's not that unusual for their customers, but there's a massive Time Warner
cable failure, actually, maybe just a Time Warner communications failure, affecting customers in all
29 states today. And I think not everybody is even back up yet. I know our internet is down here in the studio.
Might be because of Time Warner, might be because of something else, who knows. But imagine that, an outage,
a major outage, and they don't know who to blame yet. They're trying to figure out how to blame it on hackers.
I'm sure they'll get to that at some point. It wasn't us this time, I swear. Well, it wasn't us in this room,
that's for sure, but at least I can say it wasn't me. That's really all I can say for sure.
But, wow, 29 states. You know, when something like that happens, you have to realize that they have tremendous power.
In their incompetence, when they fail and when things don't connect, you realize that if they did this intentionally
and cut everybody off, the communications snafus would be incredible. People depend on their cable systems
for their phones, for their internet connectivity, for communicating in all different ways.
It's one reason to have backups of one sort or another.
And what if they get bought out by Comcast and Comcast does that? It's even more people.
So, yeah, if Comcast... Who's buying whom now?
Comcast wants to buy Time Warner.
Because I can't keep up with who's bigger. It just seems like Time Warner should be able to buy Comcast.
Comcast owns NBC now, too.
So Time Warner and Comcast would own NBC?
No, no, no. Comcast is now known as Comcast NBC Universal.
Okay, which means they own NBC, right?
Exactly. And they want to buy Time Warner also.
So what if they broke down or shut everything down?
It would affect far more people than were affected today.
Wow. So their goal is basically to just be called universal and be done with it.
Yes.
They're well on the way.
Hey, Kyle, you had something happen this week, actually.
That's sort of a microcosm of this.
Your phone just decided to not work anymore.
And can I say the name of the company? Would that be okay?
No, I don't think it's working.
I won't say the name of the company.
The phone company that you spoke to had an interesting explanation for why your phone stopped working.
Well, it's just I don't even think they understood the explanation.
But basically it stopped communicating and stopped recognizing my SIM because it's a GSM system.
And I had to talk to them and basically guide them back into adding my SIM to their network.
Well, it was funny because it said you had a bad SIM.
It said emergency calls only.
You couldn't even call the company to ask them to turn it back on.
You had to use my phone to do that.
Right, right.
I think the ultimate irony is that I needed them in this particular instance to add my handset's identification,
probably some serial number, one of many associated with it, I'm sure.
But they had to add that and then somehow get it all to re-sync.
And then I would see an alpha tag and get signal and then be able to make calls and receive messages and stuff like that.
But that's not how they phrased it, though, is it?
Yeah.
She basically told me that they needed to reboot the tower in my area, which I kind of can see.
Reboot the tower?
That would disrupt so many conversations going on on that tower.
It seems like a very specific thing.
And to use that as an explanation, it's a little misleading.
They have to reboot every tower in the country depending on where you happen to be?
Yes, I know.
Yes, they rebooted all of the towers everywhere for every phone call just so that my phone could start working.
I mean it actually depends how the tower is implemented.
But a lot of these telephony systems are written in very fault-tolerant ways such that you can actually restart it without losing the ongoing connections.
I suspect that the person you were talking to was just making stuff up, but it is sort of vaguely possible.
I think that should be a feature that we have, things that representatives make up to try and explain things they don't understand.
Well, it's kind of standard procedure.
Anyone who works in sort of product support, IT support, that sort of thing, and I'm sure we've got lots of listeners in the field,
know that sometimes you have to pull out a techie-sounding word that your client or victim might recognize as, yes, that is indeed a techie-sounding word.
So she might as well have said, you have to JavaScript your megahertz, and we'll get you set right up.
Emmanuel.
Yes, Barney.
My favorite story like that was, in fact, you were staying in Philadelphia at my place with some friends for the first East Coast micro-broadcasting conference.
I know what story this is.
In the late 90s.
And I called Sprint because we were waiting for the time change.
It was Eastern-type daylight, whatever.
We're the only nerds around who would actually get excited over the fact that the time was changing and what would our phones do at the time that that came.
So we were all gathered around at two in the morning.
So I called Sprint, my mobile phone carrier at the time, and just said, hey, why isn't this – well, why didn't my phone –
because there was no way to manually change the time on my phone, as with most mobile phones now.
But anyway, the excuse I got from – the explanation I got from Sprint was that the solar winds were interfering with the satellites that were getting the time signal to the phones.
Wow.
Yes.
That's rich.
That's really rich.
And he sounded really sincere, like he believed this.
It's like, who told you this?
Maybe there was a memo being passed around saying, if people persist, tell them this.
And we would love to get our hands on memos like that.
I can't imagine that many people were calling up at two in the morning to ask about this irrelevance that they had to force a memo.
If all else fails, invoke the cosmos.
Invoke the heavens.
Things you can't possibly control.
Well, interesting story from The Intercept this week, The Intercept being the – I guess the new media empire that Glenn Greenwald and others are a part of.
This is all about the NSA's surveillance engine known as ICREACH.
ICREACH.
The letters I-C-R-E-A-C-H.
So IC stands for intelligence community, presumably.
Or ICU.
I don't know.
Yeah, I guess.
I don't have a sense of humor.
But according to the story, the NSA is secretly providing data to nearly two dozen U.S. government agencies with a Google-like search engine built to share more than 850 billion, with a B, billion records about phone calls, emails, cell phone locations, Internet chats.
And that's according to classified documents obtained by The Intercept.
So when they say Google-like, they just mean it has a full-text index with some sort of relevance engine, or do they mean more than that?
They might mean that it works.
It might mean that it's something that really goes into probing all kinds of data and sharing it.
Yeah, it probably means it is indeed a search engine.
Ah.
Well, that's good.
Which, by the way, I'm not sure who leaked these documents or if they were obtained by The Intercept.
They provide the first definitive evidence that the NSA has for years made massive amounts of surveillance data directly accessible to domestic law enforcement agencies.
Planning documents for I-C-R-E-A-C-H, as the search engine is called, cite the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Drug Enforcement Administration as key participants.
I-C-R-E-A-C-H contains information on the private communications of foreigners and, it appears, millions of records on American citizens who have not been accused of any wrongdoing.
Details about its existence are contained in the archive of materials provided to The Intercept.
And I'm sorry, I was wrong.
It was provided by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden.
So, interesting.
How do we access the I-C-R-E-A-C-H service?
Just curious.
Well, first, you get a job with not just the NSA, but one of the many intelligence agencies that has access to this thing.
Or a contractor.
Or a contractor.
You can work for Dell and get access, as Edward Snowden did.
Okay, but my question then is, sometimes, as a contractor, I work from home.
How would I access I-C-R-E-A-C-H from my house?
I don't think they'd let you do that.
Really?
So, whenever I want to search and spy on somebody, I've got to go into the office and get on there.
I'm just trying to figure out exactly how it works so we can figure all that out.
You have to step into the SCIF, the Secure Compartmentalized Information Facility.
It's like a Faraday shielded room with...
And you didn't just make that phrase up.
No, the SCIF is a time-honored acronym in the intelligence community.
Well-known.
I think I first learned that term in James Bamford's first book about the NSA back in 1981.
And, yeah, you have to go to a special place.
You can't just access it from your...
The computer itself has to be specially shielded, like using something called TEMPEST, which is really good.
TEMPEST, it's an acronym.
I don't know what that means.
I think the acronym is classified, what the words mean, but TEMPEST.
It prevents the computer from emitting radio emanations that could be decoded from some distance away.
It has to be in a shielded room.
So, you can't do this from home, probably.
Did you really say that the acronym, what TEMPEST stands for, is classified?
Yeah, I mean, TEMPEST, it's an official term, but the words that go into what it means, nobody seems to know.
It's classified.
All someone has to do is call us and say those words, and then it's out, and there's nothing anybody can do.
I'm pretty sure I've heard it, but we can't access the Internet right now, so we have no way of telling.
But if someone out there does have access to the outside world, maybe you can find out,
or maybe somebody from inside a government agency can tell us what TEMPEST actually stands for.
I thought it was common knowledge.
You looking it up, Mike?
I'm trying.
I don't have Time Warner, but I'm in a sort of concrete bunker here.
You have one of those smart telephones that can do anything.
It works a lot better when you're not in a concrete 1970s giant academic bunker.
Well, that's why the CIA put us here, because they want us to get out and find new things.
Yes, Kyle?
I think the word electromagnetic is in there somewhere.
Okay.
Well, we have one of the words.
I think that's great.
We have six to go then.
One of the E's is probably electromagnetic.
Can we have the progress chart updated?
We're six of the way there, seventh of the way there.
We could turn this into Hangman.
You know, that might be truer than you think, so let's not play that game here.
Or Havana White when you need her.
So, if you believe Wikipedia, which you might not want to do, then it's just a codename that is not an acronym.
I believe in Wikipedia.
And you're saying it doesn't stand for anything, Mike?
You're really buying into that?
If that's the conspiracy theory you want to start, I won't stop you.
Well, okay.
I think it stands for something.
You don't just come up with a word like tempest.
And it's all caps too, isn't it?
Which tells me that it has to stand for something.
Well, the NSA, as we've learned, has all kinds of things, all of them in all caps, and not all of them stand for something.
That's because they have to spend a lot of time shouting lately because of all the things that have been happening.
But in this particular case, I think it actually does stand for something.
What about X-key score?
Was that an acronym?
Well, I don't know.
No.
I think that's sort of a...
Rob, what's the term for that where you combine different words?
You would know that.
When you combine different words to do what?
To...
A sentence, are you looking for?
That's a compound word, I believe.
It's a grammatical term for when you combine two words to mean something else.
Isn't that a compound word?
We're doing this in second grade.
I think, Bernie, the word you're looking for is German.
Hey, the Comrex is back.
No, it isn't.
We're not online.
Yeah.
I heard a long story about the Comrex units.
It might be here, but it's not doing anything.
Okay.
We'll talk about that later.
Okay.
Something else.
While we're trying to figure out NSA secrets, concerning a study that's making its way around
the internet today, social media and the spiral of silence,
and that's something that is really kind of an interesting concept.
One of the things about social media that at least I hoped would happen,
and I'm sure a lot of people did,
is that it might get people to talk more openly than they would talk in person.
You're behind a keyboard, you're on a PC, you're on your phone,
and you're talking either to strangers or to people you already know.
Maybe you'll be a little bit less shy about bringing up certain controversial things.
Turns out not to be so.
Turns out not to actually be the case.
They used Edward Snowden as the experiment here and asked around to see if people
are more willing to talk about something controversial like that,
especially if they believe that most people disagree with them,
and they found that people were less willing to discuss the Snowden NSA story in social media
than they were in person.
86% of Americans were willing to have an in-person conversation about the surveillance program,
but just 42% of Facebook and Twitter users were willing to post about it on those platforms.
And I find that staggering.
I mean, what's the point?
What's the point of social media if you're afraid to talk about things
that might be a little bit controversial?
Does that surprise anybody?
I was shocked by these numbers.
One of the questions of the study in the survey was,
if the topic of the government surveillance programs came up in any of these settings,
how willing would you be to join in the conversation?
At a family dinner, 40% of people said they would be.
On Twitter, only 14%.
Wow. Yeah, you have the same numbers, and that is shocking.
Shocking is a word that can be used here.
I think it is that way because in conversation it's a lot easier to have theories
and postulate about what is going on and what should be done, how you feel.
You emote more.
You might be getting more confidence with someone in a setting where you're having an intimate conversation
versus when you're on the web.
I mean, there's the chance of you being challenged.
I think people are a lot more aware that they will be challenged
if they don't cite things, if they don't have footnotes,
if they don't have citations of proper language,
these kinds of things people will attack them or troll them for,
and people, I think, are sensitive to that.
You just touched upon something, Kyle, trolling.
I mean, that is something that happens a lot with comment boards.
Ridiculously.
You would think that that would translate over to discussing things
that are controversial on Twitter and Facebook.
It's kind of strange that it doesn't. Rob?
I think another aspect of this is the fact that the current crop of social media users, by and large,
have grown used to the fact that when you put something online, it's out there.
And you basically, it's very difficult to take back.
It's very difficult to have it forgotten.
Whereas a face-to-face conversation, you can go back to things later.
You can leave it alone. You can agree to disagree, whatever.
But you say something on social media, and basically, forevermore,
people can go back and find that you said that.
Well, now people walking around with Google Glass can be recording you,
and that could be forever as well.
So nothing you say could be temporary.
Without Google Glass, it could be recording you too.
Google contact lenses, you're right.
There's all kinds of covert recording technology,
some of it much more covert than a giant thing on your face.
I'm sure I mentioned on this program before the concept of the filter bubble,
which is originally come up with by Eli Pariser,
which is that you see stuff on social media that you sort of tend to agree with,
and it's sort of self-reinforcing in that way.
So my Twitter feed, I know, is full of conversation about Edward Snowden
and topics like that.
But I guess a lot of other people don't have that experience.
But, Emanuel, it's not just social networking that people are afraid to discuss.
If you look at the numbers of this Pew study,
it said, again, the question is,
if the topic of government surveillance programs came up in these settings,
how willing would you be to join in the conversation?
As I said before, 40% of people would be willing to discuss it at a family dinner,
like a private dinner.
But at a community meeting or at work, only 27% of people said they would.
And that has all the same type of back-and-forth communications
and nuances that Kyle was referring to.
So it's a chilling effect.
People don't want to talk about this with a wide—
they only want to talk with people that are really close with, that they trust.
Yeah, and that they know on a casual or a very familiar basis.
I think shutting down your boss or somebody that you work with
and letting them know it's this way
or that somebody is a real jerk because they're in a leadership position and they lie,
I think expressing that in a setting where there are other nuances to your relationships,
like hierarchies and people, God forbid, in the position of authority,
whether actual or perceived,
I think that causes a bit of reservation
when people are actually approached with the prospect of having a dialogue about that with people.
But people also, I think, on the flip side, want to hear the opinions.
They want to hear what are the arguments on different sides.
And I think that's why it is such a high percentage among people who are familiar who are talking about it
because there is a lot to it and it's very technical.
And people, I think, are okay with being wrong or okay with being shut down a bit
or hearing some intelligent arguments for or against
because, again, it's this kind of space of fluid
or a discussion that can go anywhere,
not something where it's going to be cut and dry, objective, there, in text forever,
on servers and in archives forever,
and you have to stand by your word that you might have been wrong
or you might not have been quite so open in that vein.
One thing that I found kind of disturbing about all of this is that,
according to one part of this study,
people who use Facebook and Twitter are less likely to share their opinions in face-to-face settings.
I just thought that really completes it, doesn't it?
If you use these social media networks a lot,
that makes you less willing to talk about things there or in person.
What are we creating here?
People who just don't want to stir up any trouble.
It seems like the opposite direction of what I would have expected.
But, Bernie, you seem familiar with this spiral of silence concept.
Can you tell us what that is?
Well, you'd really have to read the study.
If you just go to pewinternet.org, you can read more about it.
But it's just sort of an overall chilling, it's a cascading chilling effect, I think.
It's sort of a chilling effect that's contagious is, I think, how I would describe it.
Does that make sense to you?
Yes, sort of a slippery slope, except going in circles,
and something that makes you just want to clam up when you think that your views
might not be shared with a lot of other people, and you just become overly cautious.
How about the neighbors?
One question is, to what extent do you think others agree with your views
about the Snowden NSA revelations?
53% of people thought their spouse or partner would agree with them,
but only 18% of people thought their neighbors would agree with them.
It's like, what?
Wow.
I don't...
I don't get that.
I mean, assuming that you think either generally that it's a good thing or that it's a bad thing,
probably half the people at least agree with you.
It's just weird, a weird number.
Okay, moving on.
This is important.
It concerns the Karnataka police, and the Karnataka police have recently issued a warning
to the citizens of Belgaum in North Karnataka,
and I know that involves a lot of our listeners,
informing them that uploading, modifying, resending, and liking malicious or misleading images,
videos, and messages through any medium with an intention of hurting religious sentiments,
knowingly or unknowingly, is a punishable offense under section 66A of the Information Technology Act
and 153A and part of 295 of the Penal Code.
So, and the Karnataka police seem to mean it this time.
In June this year, the Mumbai police, and that might give you a hint as to what I'm talking about,
had issued a similar warning to citizens directing them to not like objectionable posts on Facebook.
It's just such a bizarre way of speaking.
The police are telling you not to like certain things.
I know they're talking about the Facebook like, but my God, how crazy and Orwellian is that?
So, yeah, don't like objectionable posts on Facebook if you're in Mumbai,
and you'll stay out of trouble that way.
Mumbai police said that the people will be booked under section 66A of the IT Act,
that's the one we refer to, and section 295A of the Indian Penal Code,
which deals with hurting religious sentiments in such cases.
You know, people really need to be a bit more open to having their feelings hurt, I think,
and there is no level of society I cannot say that about.
It's insane.
Liking something, that's a crime?
Where does it stop?
And I got to say, this might be India.
You might say, oh, boy, it's crazy over there.
It would never happen over here.
Don't believe it, because it can happen anywhere.
Go ahead, Bernie.
The name of this law, the official name of the law,
the Karnataka Prevention of Dangerous Activities of Bootleggers, Drug Offenders, Gamblers,
Goondas, Immoral Traffic Offenders, Slum Grabbers, and Video or Audio Pirates Bill of 2014.
Now, hold on.
Just a couple of questions here.
First of all, what in God's name is a goonda?
I don't know.
I had to look it up.
If you search Google Images for goondas, there's some pictures of really crazy-looking people.
All right.
And also, what is a slum grabber?
I know what a slum lord is, but I don't know what a slum grabber is.
I think that was one of the enemies you fight in Legend of Zelda.
All right.
That could be insulting to somebody in Karnataka, some religion or something like that,
and you better not go to India.
That's a good question because I will be in Mumbai in a couple of months.
That's big news.
You're going to India?
Yeah.
So, do I have to unlike—
Wait.
Why are you going to India?
I didn't know about it.
You should be told about these things.
What's going on in India?
I just got my visa, so I didn't want to talk about it until then.
Wow.
Okay.
Well, now you have your visa.
Now I have my visa.
That's great.
India, get ready for Mike.
He's going to be in your country soon.
I guess you can email us if you're in the country and think I should do something while I'm there.
Have the food.
It's really good.
Yeah.
Well, I plan to eat.
Do I have to go before I travel and unlike?
I don't use Facebook much, so it won't be too much of a burden.
But unlike any whatever word you just said?
Well, there is no unlike button, as you probably know.
So, you can't unlike.
You can't dislike, but I thought you could unlike.
Once you've liked, you can undo it.
Can you take back a like?
You can delete a like, I think.
Can you do that?
I can unfavorite a tweet.
I know that.
Yeah, but you've already liked it, and that's gone into a record someplace that you like something.
You already broke the law.
My question is do I have to do that or does it just apply to things that I like while I'm there?
I'd like to know how they would ever find your Facebook account in the first place or how they find anybody's Facebook account.
Why link your actual persona to any of these accounts?
How did they get that information that this is this person and not just somebody using that particular name or handle?
Well, they have my legal name and my photograph.
They could compare.
And someone can start a Facebook page with that name and that photograph?
You see what I mean?
I'm going to claim that that's what happened if this comes up.
It's through anonymity and taking out handles and doing all kinds of mischief that we retain our freedom.
The Anthony Weiner defense.
Okay.
He ruined that defense for a lot of people, but, yeah, I think that is – didn't he just say hackers did it all?
Yes, he did.
I think, yeah.
But did he say that someone else was using that account, that it wasn't him in the first place?
He said hackers did it.
Hackers took over his existing account.
That's a little different.
He put his pictures of something.
Let's stop talking about this.
What I am confused about in this law is that it just refers to hurting religious sentiment.
It's not any more specific than that.
So, you know, you can't hurt any religious sentiment.
How about sports teams?
You know, you could hurt the feelings of somebody in Manchester City very easily.
Some people treat that like a religion.
There's a fellow in my neighborhood who has deep spiritual discussions with a newspaper vending machine.
I mean, do I infringe on his spiritual rights and now get in trouble?
I have an idea.
How about we suggest that any group that feels it can't handle being insulted stay away from the Internet
and stay away from other people, too.
Just hang out with the people that you agree with and you can live a nice, simplistic life of fiction.
We just got done discussing the damage that's caused by only discussing things with people you already agree with.
Right.
Well, but they don't understand that.
I don't mean to insult those people by saying that they don't understand this.
But if they were listening to me, they wouldn't be listening to this right now
because I already suggested they go elsewhere.
I think we should add kind of like.
Okay.
Kind of like.
I like that.
Kind of.
Yeah.
All right.
Interesting bit of news out of the Netherlands today, which I thought was kind of cool.
The Netherlands Public Prosecution Authority, which is known as OM, I don't know what that stands for,
has received a letter from prominent Dutch hackers arguing that hacking should not be criminalized.
This is not from 20 years ago.
This is from right now.
The OM recently started a campaign in which the organization asks citizens what punishments they find fitting for hacking.
These surveys help the judge decide how to punish hackers.
I wish they would ask questions like that here.
Actually, no.
I don't wish they.
Knowing the people I know.
The leaders of 11 hacker organizations.
Did you guys know there are 11 hacker organizations in the Netherlands?
What?
Are some of them listed?
I don't think so.
Not a single one of the 11?
That's not fair.
No, they all requested anonymity.
Maybe they're hacker spaces.
That's possible.
Well, that is an organization, so I suppose.
There are a lot of organizations, I believe.
Yeah, no, they like to form organizations over there.
The leaders of 11 hacker organizations want the OM to put a stop to this campaign, arguing that the OM states unjustly that hacking is, quote, breaking into a computer without permission, unquote.
And that's not what hacking is.
It may be what some hackers do when they explore, when they figure things out, when they do whatever.
But it's not an essential part of what a hacker is.
So, instead, the organizations believe that, quote, hacking is doing more with manufacturers' technology than they thought of themselves.
The manufacturers, that is.
In a creative way, testing the limits of possibility and exploring the ethic and social consequences of the discovered possibilities, unquote.
And you'll find that that sentiment right there is attacked just as much by those in charge, by corporations, by government, because, in effect, you're figuring things out that you're not supposed to figure out, how software can do more, how you can break past restrictions on something you've already bought.
And they attack people like that just as much as somebody who would break into some other computer system.
So, I totally see their point here.
The definition of hacking should be taken up by the OM.
I'm not sure what that means.
I think it has been taken up.
For them to describe hacking as intrusion is also wrong, according to these organizations.
The hacker community receives constant negative attention in this way, while we actually work on constructive, positive topics.
Actually, they do name some organizations here.
Organizations such as Revelation Space in The Hague and Technology Incognita in Amsterdam have signed the letter, which hopes to turn the reputation of hackers back around.
They encourage the OM to know better than misconceptions and understandings that their staff, albeit under the influence of Hollywood, have.
So, yeah, Hollywood gets blamed, regardless.
I think they know what they're doing.
Yeah, I think so, too.
You mean Hollywood does?
No, well, they do, but I think the OM may have intentionally tried to legislate the definition of hacking into something that it's not.
Yeah, well, it does make going after people a lot easier.
Sure.
Concluding here, the organizations say they feel very threatened when the OM believes they are busy with criminal activities.
If we are ever suspected of such activities, we are confronted with negative prejudgments, which could stand in the way of a fair trial.
The OM has not given a reaction to this story, but interesting to follow this in the months ahead.
I mean, it's sort of interesting because there have been some controversies recently where some people feel that the Dutch hacker community is, in fact, too close to the police or the prosecution.
So, you know, it doesn't always work out to be.
So, you know, it doesn't mean they'll be nice to you if you're nice to them.
Well, I think it's important not to change your core beliefs in the interest of, quote, unquote, safety.
And I see that in the American community as well, where people translate their hacking curiosity and skills into, well, can I get a good job out of this?
Can I work with the government rather than be somebody who's viewed as a possible threat?
You don't have to be an actual threat, but you should not give up your curiosity, your spirit of rebellion just for the sake of safety.
If that's what you want to do, great.
But if you fear that if you continue asking questions, somebody is going to act against you and it would be safer for you to just settle into a nice security job or something like that, you're doing it for the wrong reasons, I think.
And that doesn't do the community much good.
Any other remarks on this or other definitions of hacking?
No, just the fact that OM spells om, which is a religious term for some people, which means I probably shouldn't criticize it if I ever want to go to India.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, you shouldn't go to India, Rob, because of what you said before.
Damn.
Okay.
This is interesting.
I don't know if you guys are aware of this.
I'm sure, Mike, you probably are.
The PlayStation Network was hacked.
Why would I be aware of that?
Wait, somebody here plays.
No, it's not you, I guess.
Well, you could see how I can make that mistake.
All right.
The PlayStation Network was recently hacked, and more than one group of hackers have claimed responsibility over the High Profile Act.
Isis-linked hacker group Lizard Squad initially took credit for the hack over the weekend.
Sony, yet another large company, but they aren't spending.
What?
Isis-linked hacker.
Did I just say that?
Isis-linked hacker group.
Isis-linked hacker group?
There's a hacker group linked.
First of all, for God's sake, American media, it's not called Isis.
It's called IS.
Islamic State.
Not the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria.
That was their old name.
It wasn't working out, so they changed it.
It's now called IS.
I saw a crawl on BBC earlier today that said IS suspected of massive crimes in Syria, but it read as is suspected of massive crimes in Syria.
And I was wondering who is suspected, and it's very confusing.
I think that's part of the justification for that name is to confuse people.
But regardless, that's what they're known as.
They're known as IS.
Okay, so Lizard Squad is this hacker group that is somehow affiliated with Isis or IS or whatever you want to call them.
Well, it turns out there is actually this group called Lizard Squad.
They're a mysterious, or it's a person maybe, a mysterious hacker, hacking collective, whatever you want to call it, known as Lizard Squad.
They've taken responsibility for a number of cyber attacks that have briefly knocked high-profile sites offline, maybe Time Warner.
Maybe they're taking responsibility for that, although they haven't yet because somebody took down their Twitter account.
Lizard Squad is vocal, taunting, and a bit obnoxious on Twitter, where it has taken credit for taking down a number of high-profile targets, including the Vatican's website.
Does the Vatican even need a website?
Sony's PlayStation Network, Battle.net.
You know what that is, right, Mike?
It's Blizzard's thing, I think.
I don't know.
It's a game thing.
Okay, well, see, you do know something about this.
I know nothing about this.
And League of Legends, which I don't know what that is.
You know what that is, Kyle?
That's a really, really big, very popular game that's played in gaming tournaments for big competition.
Well, then they've made a lot of enemies, this Lizard Squad, if they took that down.
Now, while all the reported hacks aren't confirmed, the group has also tweeted that explosives were on board an American Airlines flight carrying Sony Online Entertainment president John Smedley, prompting an emergency landing in Phoenix.
And nobody wants to land in Phoenix, so that was a really horrible thing for them to experience.
Lizard Squad has a penchant for taunting its targets and has even invoked ISIS in some of its tweets.
Apparently, they didn't get the message either that that's not their name anymore, making outsiders even more confused about the identity of the hackers.
So, yeah, this PlayStation Network and all kinds of other things.
The Twitter account was Lizard Squad, but that, as you will see if you go there, has been taken down.
Does anybody really believe for one second that ISIS is allied with a hacker or a group of hackers that are taking down PlayStation?
It seems exceedingly unlikely. It sounds like these folks are really excellent trolls, but I await further evidence, I suppose.
Well, if you're doing something stupid like calling in a bomb threat on an airplane, yeah, you know, it strikes me that you are a troll and you are somebody that just thinks you can't ever get caught.
But I would bet anything that they will track this person down through IPs that have been logged by Twitter, through all kinds of other location information that might have been logged.
Or just through their own extreme stupidity.
You think they're stupid?
Now you've insulted ISIS and the Lizard Squad.
And also India. I'm going to roll to that.
And India.
I believe, Rob, that's radicalized stupidity.
Did you just become radicalized in this room?
Radicalized lizards.
Oh, that's good. Can you reserve that quickly, Bernie, for somebody else does on Twitter?
Someone by the domain.
Yeah.
Oh, boy. So, yeah, this is what we're looking forward to.
But the thing is, in people's minds, in people's tiny, limited minds, they are associating hackers with this horrible group of people doing awful things.
And by the way, it should not be called the Islamic State because it has nothing to do with Islam.
Let's get that straight right away.
By associating hackers with this, though, you're basically saying hacking is terrorism.
And before you know it, Israel is sending rockets to your house.
And that's why this is such an easy troll to do because people still are afraid of the H-word, by and large.
And it's very easy to make them think that, you know, oh, hackers, this means evil.
This means badassery.
This means somebody who can do all these mysterious things like make bombs materialize on some guy's airplane.
And, you know, trolling is about getting the reactions.
It's not about actually being able to do things.
There's an irony in all this.
Only one? OK.
Well, we only have time for one.
There is an irony in this.
Wasn't Sony the company that hacked into a whole lot of people's personal computers with distributing?
The rootkit?
Yes.
Yeah, you're right.
Now they get hacked.
Bernie, that's very different.
As you know, Sony is a giant corporation and therefore can do whatever it wants without consequence.
Right. I forgot.
Thank you for straightening that out.
If ISIS files for its corporate papers, then we might be dealing with the same thing down the road.
Listen to mail.
OTH at 2600.com is our email address for Off The Hook, which airs at this time every week on WBAI New York.
And we'll be taking phone calls 212-209-2900.
But I'd like to read a couple of letters and maybe get some discussion started as well.
Dear Off The Hook, for once, I would like to see Off The Hook and 2600 be responsible and talk about the consequences.
Like the people who are currently in jail for listening to all this hacktivism nonsense you spew.
Talk about how Jeremy Hammond will be in prison until he's 40 years old.
Talk about Barrett Brown and how this has messed up his life.
What about the Aaron Schwartz story?
We can't hear his now.
All I hear from Off The Hook, 2600, and Hope is how cool it is to break the law.
How awesome it is to risk your life and your freedom for a radical cause.
The only time you mention Hammond, Brown, and Schwartz is to speak of them like they were saints
and to promote your own interests selling magazines, tickets, T-shirts, and soda.
The problem with the over-politicalization is that you are not even being technical about it.
You actually preach.
I mean, listen to yourself.
I feel like I'm preaching now.
You actually preach on the sins of digital technology.
Thou shalt not.
Get over yourselves.
And this is not signed.
But wow.
First of all, I just got to say, I take great exception to mentioning Aaron Schwartz
as somebody who broke the law and paid the price.
That is a horrible example.
The law broke him.
Yeah, exactly.
The law is what was wrong with that.
He did absolutely nothing wrong, and it was too much for him to bear.
And I wonder how many more people like that are out there.
The other names, I don't think we've even talked about those cases on the radio.
I know there have been some talks at the conferences about these people.
But what would you have us do?
Simply ignore what's going on out there and not challenge what is an unfair system?
Rob?
The thing is, I believe we do talk about the consequences of the actions of individuals
like the people listed because we are the ones trying to draw attention to these consequences
that these people are suffering and point it out as something that should not be,
as something that's screwed up about the world.
And I'm sure we discuss this sort of thing.
I think we mentioned the other cases in the course of events.
But yeah, it's worth paying attention to how these cases go and where they go.
And I think it is important to us to keep the word out.
I would argue that we're one of the only places that really opens up
and remembers these people that get in trouble and have consequences for doing things
that ordinary, everyday people might not even consider possible
or think of as a way of using whatever tools or services or things that these people see around them.
And that's been something that 2600 and this show have followed for quite a long time.
And it just seems a bit, well, outrageous to claim that we're not sensitive to that.
And I think you also need to listen to some of the things we say with a little bit of sense of humor
or some big boy like mommy-daddy filters like using your own judgment
and deciding right from wrong and these kinds of common sense things.
I think we do say some things that are sarcastic sometimes,
but I don't think we've encouraged anyone and said, like, this is how cool this is.
I think you'll find in every article and in every time something controversial comes up,
there are often preambles and discussions of do not try this at home or this is for educational purposes.
There's very much of that in what we do.
So I think there's some huge gaps in his argument based on some of that from my knowledge of how we act.
And when we've talked about Chelsea Manning and where she is in the situation she's in
and Julian Assange in the situation he's in and other people like that who are suffering
because they were doing what they believed in and doing something that we think people should be able to do,
people should be allowed to do, people should not be punished so for.
I think, yeah, it's something we keep an eye on.
Yeah, we should all have a chance to consider their perspectives and learn from
and find the instructive parts of their actions so that we can use that and include it in our own actions.
We are hackers.
We see something that we perceive as wrong or messed up or, you know,
malfunctioning about how the world's working and we want to fix it.
We want to get it fixed.
And one way we can do that is by talking about it.
Well, one thing that bothers me about this is that it seems like hacktivism is being painted with one broad brush
and it's as diverse as our community itself.
There's different ways of expressing yourself as a hacktivist.
I happen to disagree with the concept of denial of service in any situation, even when it's against a hate group.
I think the best thing you can do is let people who are ignorant speak for themselves and prove how ignorant they are.
But I recognize that not everybody agrees with that and that's a tactic that I simply don't sign on to.
But there are many viewpoints in hacktivism.
There are many ways to express yourself and to be an activist online.
And I think that's what we're talking about.
We're not one monolithic organization or group of people.
Emanuel?
Yes, Barney.
I want to thank this listener.
All listeners who send us their opinions, it's valuable.
We obviously care about their opinions.
We wouldn't be talking about them on the air at length like this.
But to Angelo who said the problem with the—
He didn't sign the email and you just said it's—okay, never mind.
No, he signed it right here.
No, if you look at the email, there's no—but I'm not going to debate it.
Okay.
My fault.
I don't know who this is.
The problem with the over-politicization is that you are not even being technical about it.
We're not over-politicizing this stuff.
The government is over-politicizing what should be normal activity
or activity that is an exercise of what should be our right to do certain things.
Well, you know, that's what gets me.
And this is something we've been dealing with on this show for ages.
Usually people on the right wing criticize us for being political.
And that's sort of a code word.
Being political means you're criticizing the system.
And you're not supposed to do that.
You're supposed to only be playing with computers and doing technical things
and revealing security holes and reporting those to your closest corporation
and government officials.
And when you become political, well, you're taking away from the hacking.
And that is nonsense.
For one thing, in Germany, they've been political from the start.
And look at the state they are in.
It's incredible what they're doing over there.
It's all about politics.
Everything is about politics.
I don't think politics is the right word for it because it's about control.
It's about what governments do, what corporations do, society.
And we are at the forefront of that in the things that we develop,
that we are able to compromise and figure out and expose.
And if you call that political, well, then I guess that's what we are as well.
But it doesn't take away at all from the technical knowledge
or interest of what hackers are all about.
I think it adds to the conversation.
It adds a different aspect to it that you can't look at these things in a vacuum.
You can't just look at the technical stuff that we all are forced to deal with in a vacuum.
And you can't look at the politics in a vacuum.
It's all interrelated, and we have to talk about it holistically.
All right. I do want to give out the phone numbers so we have a few minutes to talk to our listeners.
212-209-2900.
Here's one more bit of email somebody sent us.
And again, you can send us email, oth at 2600.com.
Are we doing a good job? Are we doing a terrible job?
What would you like us to do in the future?
Here's a letter from Lex who would like us to go outside.
He says, yes, I'd like to hear off-the-hook episodes done in a similar way to off-the-wall,
where sometimes you travel and go different places,
and he'd like for us to go out and report from the streets.
It's not as easy as you might think, you know.
I could tell any of the three people in the studio now to go outside, and they won't do it.
I came from outside in here to do the radio program.
Go outside, Mike.
I'll go outside in a few minutes.
When the show's over, yeah. I mean go outside and do a remote.
Do we have a remote?
Now we're getting technical about it.
Would you like to call my telephone, and I'll go outside?
I don't know what the advantage will be, but I can do it.
Let's go to the phones. 212-209-2900.
Good evening. You're on off-the-hook.
Hello.
Hi. What's on your mind?
I would like to say that...
I would like to say, Tom, and I know that's Tom from the Bronx,
that your phone line requires some maintenance.
I didn't hang up. He hung up.
It's static on the line.
Remember static on the line? That used to be a thing.
Now it's just no line at all.
Let's try this phone call.
Good evening. You're on off-the-hook.
Good evening, Emmanuel.
It's Bobson from Bulgaria.
I know all the callers. Wow.
Hi, Bobson.
Hey.
Hey, Bobson.
I think you read the wrong letter somehow.
I read the wrong letter? What letter should I have read?
I don't know. Is this the only letter you've got?
Oh, no, we have stacks of them, but we also want to hear from our listeners live.
Are you live? You're in Bulgaria, so you're in a completely different time zone.
I'm going to guess that Bobson...
Yeah, it's nearly 3 a.m. here.
I don't understand time zone.
So he is live, but he's in 3 a.m.
Okay, got it.
I'm going to guess that Bobson...
It is 3 a.m.
Listen to how slowly he's talking.
Yes.
Yeah, being in Bulgaria, you can probably reveal that information without too much of a threat of a drone attack.
I'm kidding. Nobody's safe.
What is the IRC channel, Bobson?
Could you tell everybody so they can join in the fun?
IRC network.
That'd be irc.2600.net.
Yes, that's how you can connect to it.
And there's channels in it, as in any IRC network.
And for this show, there's a channel, hash of the hook, where people gather during the show and chat.
And talk behind our backs. We know what goes on in there.
All right. Listen, Bobson, we're going to move on because we have a ton of other phone calls.
But you need to get to sleep over there. It's 3 o'clock in the morning.
No, I just had some mate.
Okay. Well, enjoy that.
Have a great evening, folks.
All right. We'll see you soon.
Let's move on and see who else is out there.
Good evening. You're on Off The Hook.
Hello?
Hi. What's on your mind?
Good evening, gentlemen.
I have a definition of cyberculture.
It's a short paragraph. May I read it?
If it's a short paragraph, go ahead.
Yes, it is.
The insidious glamour of cyberculture relies on the initiatory power it is saturated with.
Once you submit to its terms, your elite status is confirmed.
You may become convinced that your anonymity confers a far-reaching protective power.
All this being a fishbowl that will employ your effort to help improve their colonization of your mind.
Have a good evening.
Well, thank you. That's rather dark to end on.
I wish I knew who wrote that.
Unless maybe the caller wrote that.
Good evening. You're on Off The Hook.
Oh, hey. What's up?
Hi. What's on your mind?
I actually have this topic I was really bothered by.
It's how the release of the Watch Dogs game is how people think hacking is so easy now.
Well, I don't know how to answer that.
It's not. I mean, nothing is easy.
It's easy to be interested in something, but it's a state of mind.
And you either have it or you don't.
You either develop it or you don't.
It's not really a question of difficulty versus simplicity.
Yeah, but I mean, I think people are like, I think the game kind of divulged away from the hacker culture
and more focused on like, oh, we can control traffic lights and bridges and all this stuff.
And I think it should have explored the culture more.
Well, the best any piece of pop culture, like a game or like many movies have in the past,
is spark someone's interest where there wasn't before.
And maybe they'll seek out the real life version of the hacker scene
and have something to gain and something to contribute.
Yeah, I guess so. But anyways, I am a fan of the game, though.
I think it was pretty cool. And I also like the idea of dead sex.
But other than that, it's an OK game.
But I just get kind of bothered by how there's people online trying to get the app that Aiden Pierce has.
Yeah, I think that's good to just just recognize that that's not it.
Like, that's not everything. Right.
It's an illustration of somebody's idea of it.
But to know that, I think, is, well, you're ahead just there.
Yeah. Anyways, I'll let you guys continue on with the other callers.
But thank you for talking. It's been a pleasure.
All right. Thanks for your call. And Mike, you had something.
I mean, I would just say I'm not familiar with this particular game.
But in general, most games are deliberate simplifications of reality.
I'm playing I've been playing this game recently called Mini Metro where you make a subway network.
And I have no illusions that making real subway networks is anywhere near as easy, which is why I love that game.
You should play it. Hook me up with this. All right.
Well, it's text based. No, you draw lines on a map.
It's fun. OK, but but but actual subway planning is, you know, a full time job for for giant agencies and all this stuff.
But the simple game, you know, I can play in 10 minutes and and that's fine.
And I think in general, that's fine. Can you crash trains into each other?
No, not in this one. It's not very realistic, is it?
Good evening. You're on off the hook. Yahoo. Hi. Hi. How you doing?
Oh, Eric. I mean, Emanuel. Yes. Oh, go ahead.
I'm sorry. I was working with Sally O'Brien and she called me, Sue.
And she said, I can't believe I called you that. This is Spider-Man writer Sue Radeckowski from my landline.
OK, we have a lot of information to process, but go ahead. What's on your mind?
Well, what I would like, you know, there's serious stuff going on with Pacifica.
No, really. Who told you that?
I would like to sell L.A. because they don't need California doesn't need to Pacifica stations.
Imagine, Emanuel, September 11th, 2001.
They're waking up over there in California. They get all the time in the world.
And the first power has already fallen. Well, yes.
Could be three hours behind. That's not their fault. They're on the West Coast.
All the time in the world. Like my friend, singer Tracy Nelson.
I asked her, like, what's going on with it? She said, well, they can't be bothered.
Well, you know, I'm not going to get into geography, one city over another.
Can I just compliment you on your excellent show?
I mean, like, you know, I just I've known you a long time.
I remember when you worked in the news department. Yes.
You remember me? I do. I do. Actually, I remember everything.
I mean, what would you say? I'm a handsome woman.
All right. You know what? We're going to move on. But thanks. Thanks for the call.
Wow. I thought the moon was full last week.
Can I just say we appreciate everybody's comments. We'd like more feedback.
If there's interesting things you'd like us to touch on or new new things you'd like us to approach in the future,
please write O.T.H. at twenty six hundred dot com.
And also with respect to that one letter about remotes, we are working on that.
Technically, we've done some tests with the comrex in the past for doing remotes,
and it would be kind of cool to be able to set up some mixing and do field field production.
But it is technically, well, a challenge.
And I'm sure anybody who's listening to the show knows there are a lot of other challenges here.
All right. Well, unfortunately, that's going to pretty much do it for us here tonight.
But it's great to hear from our listeners from all over the world.
The whole world is watching. We're watching the whole world.
And you can watch with us. You can share information with us.
Give us your opinions, as Kyle said, O.T.H. at twenty six hundred dot com.
And keep listening to WBA on you'll get all kinds of perspectives and controversies and things like that.
Stay tuned for the personal computer show where no doubt there will be more of that manual for off the hook.
Have a good night.
Oh.
Would you look around you now and tell me what you see?
Faces full of hate and fear. Faces full of me.
Do you feel the rumblings as your head comes crumbling down?
Do you know what I mean?
Well, you better run. You know the end is getting near.
Feel the wind of something hard come whistling past your ear.
As they try to get you.
Well, it will upset you down.
Now, you know what I mean.
Someday you will see how long we've waited for the time.
Show you how we've got to get together with you all.
Oh.
To stand, turn your head around till everything's unclear.
To stand, turn your arm around until it is nothing.
And they'd love to burn you.
Or at least to turn you around.
Now, you know what I mean.
Can you look around you now and tell us what to be?
Can you look inside yourself and tell us what you see?
Do you feel the rumblings as your head comes crumbling down?
And you know what I mean.
Someday you will see how long we've waited for the time.
Show you how we've got to get together with you all.
Now, you know what I mean.